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1 KerFuFFler  Apr 17, 2015 1:21:48pm

I just read an interesting article about this in the New Yorker. It appears that the Turks encouraged the Kurds to do a lot of the killing but afterwards singled out Kurds for poor treatment and persecution. Many Kurds now seem willing to acknowledge their ancestors’ involvement in the genocide and are apologizing to what is left of the Armenian community. So perhaps the truth will come out after all.

In time, the Diyarbakir Kurds began to recognize that their role in the genocide was a kind of original sin in their modern political history. “I remember this one Armenian priest,” Demirbaş told me. “A Kurd was insulting him, and this priest told him, ‘We were the breakfast for them, you will be the lunch. Don’t forget.’

2 CriticalDragon1177  Apr 17, 2015 5:46:41pm

Vicious Babushka,

This is not good news.

3 CriticalDragon1177  Apr 17, 2015 5:59:47pm

By the way, originally I intended my comment to be sarcastic, but than I decided, I better not, so I changed it.

4 garzooma  Apr 17, 2015 8:24:14pm

I think we should be less concerned about “Turkey’s Denial” (lots of countries have strange ideas) and more concerned about our own country’s enabling of it. Here’s an article about a rug made by Armenian orphans, survivors of genocide, that the White House refused to lend to the Smithsonian for fear of offending Turkey. No other country has this level of control over what American officials can say or do — the Smithsonian, for crying out loud. “Turkey’s Denial” happens because it works, and we let it work.

5 electrotek  Apr 17, 2015 8:55:09pm

re: #2 CriticalDragon1177

Wanna know what else is messed up? I’ve noticed many Muslims are immediately siding with Turkey and reinforcing the false claim that there was no genocide there. Even sites that claim to oppose Islamophobia like LoonWatch which have rightfully criticized right-wingers for denying the Bosnian Genocide will immediately claim there was no Armenian Genocide in modern-day Turkey. This is no different from Eastern Orthodox Christians claiming there was no genocide in the Balkans against Bosnian Muslims. Denial of the Armenian Genocide or Bosnian Genocide is WRONG on all counts and should never be denied on the basis of faux religious solidarity.

Just because some Islamophobic shitheads have embraced the Armenian cause doesn’t mean we should engage in a knee-jerk reaction and deny it. It happened and we should continue to pressure the Turks to admit it and apologize for it. Not to appease the Islamophobes but because it is morally and ethically speaking, the right thing to do.

6 CriticalDragon1177  Apr 17, 2015 11:11:36pm

re: #5 electrotek

I’m not really a supporter of Loon Watch anymore. I had a falling out with them, over Mondowies, over a year ago. That said, if you’re going to accuse them of something, you should back it up. Where specifically did they claim that the Armenian Genocide never happened?

If they did, I will agree with you through, it definitely wasn’t the right thing to do.

7 cinesimon  Apr 18, 2015 3:21:08am

re: #4 garzooma

No other country? Are you serious?

8 Nyet  Apr 18, 2015 5:39:44am

I warned about LoonWatch back in 2012:

littlegreenfootballs.com
littlegreenfootballs.com

They haven’t improved since then, adding Mondoweiss to their blogroll (wasn’t there in 2012). They also called Turkey’s Islamist PM Erdogan an anti-loon. Here is the article they cited:

PM tells Sarkozy not to incite to Islamophobia

(Today’s Zaman)

PM Recep Tayyip Erdoᇺn claimed on Tuesday that French President Nicolas Sarkozy is inciting racism and Islamophobia in France in order to get re-elected in the upcoming presidential elections. Erdoᇺn said resorting to xenophobia, particularly Islamophobia, to win elections is very irresponsible.

Depicting a recent bill Sarkozy’s center-right UMP initiated seeking to penalize the denial of Armenian claims of genocide at the hands of the Ottoman Empire in 1915 as an act inciting the French to xenophobia, Erdoᇺn said the current president adopted a more aggressive stance after the bill was passed into law but then overruled by the French Constitutional Council, which deemed it unconstitutional. Erdoᇺn said the council had corrected a historic mistake by cancelling the law.

Valerie Boyer, a deputy from the UMP, initiated the genocide bill criminalizing the denial of the so-called Armenian genocide in December 2011. The bill was approved in the lower house of the French Parliament and in the French Senate in January. However, the constitutional council deemed it unconstitutional, stating that it violated the freedom of expression.

“Sarkozy is making xenophobia a matter of domestic politics, and issuing threatening remarks against foreigners in his country. This is in violation of the EU’s universal values and fundamental principles,” Erdoᇺn said. The French presidential elections will take place between April and May.

9 garzooma  Apr 18, 2015 7:17:29am

re: #5 electrotek

Wanna know what else is messed up? I’ve noticed many Muslims are immediately siding with Turkey and reinforcing the false claim that there was no genocide there.
[…]
Just because some Islamophobic shitheads have embraced the Armenian cause doesn’t mean we should engage in a knee-jerk reaction and deny it.

FWIW, Glenn Beck has nice things to say about one Muslim, the Turkish Governor of one of the Ottoman provinces during the Armenian Genocide.

10 CuriousLurker  Apr 18, 2015 8:02:31am

re: #4 garzooma

No other country has this level of control over what American officials can say or do — the Smithsonian, for crying out loud. “Turkey’s Denial” happens because it works, and we let it work.

Riiiight. It’s Obama’s fault and the U.S. is responsible for Turkey’s denial—and, yes, I read the article you posted—it also blames Obama and maintains that it might somehow lead to WW2 Holocaust denial.

Hyperbole doesn’t lend credence to your assertions.

re: #9 garzooma

FWIW, Glenn Beck has nice things to say about one Muslim, the Turkish Governor of one of the Ottoman provinces during the Armenian Genocide.

Glenn Beck, seriously? His opinions are worth less than nothing. He’s a self-serving loon of the first order about whom Charles has written numerous articles about. Citing Glenn Beck’s opinions around here will not result in you being taken even remotely seriously. Try again.

11 garzooma  Apr 18, 2015 8:57:39am

re: #10 CuriousLurker

… the U.S. is responsible for Turkey’s denial

The U.S. is responsible for how it responds to Turkey’s denial. I live in the U.S., not Turkey, so what the U.S. does matters more to me. Denying the Smithsonian access to a rug made by orphans is a pretty egregious way to respond to Turkey’s denial. Do you disagree?

Glenn Beck, seriously?

You do know what “FWIW” means, right? electrotek had remarked about “Islamophobic shitheads”. I thought it interesting, not to mention surprising, that one of them would go out of his way to say nice things to say about a Muslim in regards to the Armenian Genocide.

12 CuriousLurker  Apr 18, 2015 10:09:44am

re: #11 garzooma

The U.S. is responsible for how it responds to Turkey’s denial.

The U.S. is also responsible first and foremost for guarding American interests in the region, up to and including our ability to utilize Turkish assets & permissions that enable us to provide logistical support for military and other strategic operations in the area—not only for the U.S., but also for our NATO allies. You might want to read up on that:

U.S.-Turkey Relations

U.S.-Turkish friendship dates to 1831, when the United States established diplomatic relations with the Ottoman Empire. After World War I and the founding of the Turkish Republic, the United States established diplomatic relations with Turkey in 1927. U.S.-Turkey relations advanced further with the Economic and Technical Cooperation agreement signed July 12, 1947, which implemented the Truman Doctrine and its policy “to support free peoples who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures.”

Turkey has been a NATO Ally since 1952 and continues to be an important security partner for the United States and Transatlantic alliance. Turkey is a leader in the NATO Resolute Support Mission in Afghanistan, facilitates the transport of non-lethal logistical support for operations in Afghanistan through Incirlik Air Base, and represents NATO’s vital eastern anchor, controlling (in accordance with international conventions) the straits of the Bosporus and the Dardanelles, which link the Black Sea with the Mediterranean. Turkey also borders Iran, Iraq, and Syria, and is a key partner for U.S. policy in the surrounding region.

The U.S.-Turkey partnership is based on mutual interests and mutual respect and is focused on areas such as regional security and stability, as well as economic cooperation.

The United States also stands in solidarity with Turkey in the fight against terrorism. Counterterrorism cooperation is a key element of our strategic partnership.

U.S. Assistance to Turkey

U.S. security assistance seeks to maximize Turkish cooperation with other countries, especially Afghanistan, and enhance the interoperability of the Turkish military with other North Atlantic Treaty Organization forces, as well as strengthen strategic trade controls and border security. The U.S. also seeks to assist Turkey in realizing the democratic aspirations of its citizens and provides grants to this end to civil society organizations. […]

state.gov

Should there be a serious rift between the U.S. and Turkey—over an event that happened 100 years ago and which other U.S. presidents haven’t risked the relationship over—then exactly who, pray tell, do you think has the ability to replace them as a strategic partner?

I live in the U.S., not Turkey, so what the U.S. does matters more to me. Denying the Smithsonian access to a rug made by orphans is a pretty egregious way to respond to Turkey’s denial.

I live in the U.S. too, so what? Turkey shares borders with three countries that are in the news every single day—Syria, Iraq and Iran. The first two are basically failed states and the other is a powerful regional player. As I’ve already pointed out, Turkey is an important strategic partner to the U.S. and since I don’t have access to the classified intelligence reports President Obama reads every day, I’m not going to second-guess him WRT how he chooses to carry out relations with them.

Do you disagree?

Nice try, but that tactic isn’t going work. My opinions on matters of genocide are well-known here based on the comments and Pages I’ve posted here over the past five years. Try again.

You do know what “FWIW” means, right?

You do know what “His opinions are worth less than nothing,” means, right? In case you still don’t get it, it’s highly unlikely that anything coming out of his mouth will be regarded here with interest or surprise. Quoting him for any other reason than to ridicule his febrile rantings won’t get you anywhere.

13 CuriousLurker  Apr 18, 2015 10:16:28am

re: #5 electrotek

Just because some Islamophobic shitheads have embraced the Armenian cause doesn’t mean we should engage in a knee-jerk reaction and deny it.

Who is “we”?

It happened and we should continue to pressure the Turks to admit it and apologize for it. Not to appease the Islamophobes but because it is morally and ethically speaking, the right thing to do.

How many lives, American and otherwise, are you willing to sacrifice if we put our foot on Turkey’s neck and they cease being an ally in the area?

14 CuriousLurker  Apr 18, 2015 11:34:19am

re: #12 CuriousLurker

Case in point, from 2007:

President George Bush today urged members of Congress to reject a congressional resolution recognising the killings of Armenians in 1915 as “genocide”, warning that it would damage US relations with Turkey.

The resolution would do “great harm” to relations, the president told reporters at the White House. He said: “This resolution is not the right response to these historic mass killings.”

His comments followed a similar joint appeal from the US secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, and the defence secretary, Robert Gates.

The intense White House lobbying campaign came just hours before the House of Representatives foreign affairs committee met to vote on the resolution.

Turkish politicians have warned that passage of the bill to a full vote in the House could severely damage diplomatic ties. […]

theguardian.com

Odious realpolitik? Yep, and this wasn’t over loaning a carpet to the Smithsonian, it was over a bill proposed by the House (introduced by a Democrat) during the 110th Congress that would have recognized the 1915 genocide.

This didn’t start with President Obama, it’s part of the shit sandwich he inherited from the Bush administration.

15 CriticalDragon1177  Apr 18, 2015 5:10:35pm

re: #8 Nyet

You know I never saw that the whole time I was over there. I have an inclination to ask Emperor, if he read over the whole thing very carefully before posting it. “The so-called Armenian genocide?” Um I’m sorry but it is a matter of historical record. It really did happen, and if it wasn’t a genocide, what was it? Chopped liver?

16 Nyet  Apr 19, 2015 3:23:03am

Great points, CL. Realpolitik is an ugly thing. I guess I would compare it to FDR’s suppression of the truth about the Katyn massacre during the war. Seen in isolation it was an ugly, ugly thing to do. Seen in context of defeating Hitler by staying Allies with USSR though…

If the whole world at once made the point about the Armenian genocide clear, Turkey wouldn’t be able to respond without wholly isolating itself. As things are now, though…


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