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1
Shiplord Kirel  Aug 23, 2015 • 12:37:20pm
Would sci-fi focus, as it has for much of its history, largely on brave white male engineers with ray guns fighting either a) hideous aliens or b) hideous governments who don’t want them to mine asteroids in space?

Sorry, I stopped reading right there. This is an uninformed and wildly inaccurate stereotype used by people who want to disparage the entire genre but who cannot be bothered to actually learn anything about it. It hasn’t been even close to the truth since perhaps 1950.
Samuel “Chip” Delaney, who is black and very publicly gay, won a Hugo almost 50 years ago for Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones The New York fan club and writer’s circle known as the Futurians had a decidedly leftist bent and defined SF from the 30s until quite recently. The membership list is a Who’s Who of SF from the 30s onward and included such iconic figures as Isaac Asimov, James Blish, and Fred Pohl.
In the 50s, Ursula K. LeGuin and many others published works that were decades ahead of their time in terms of cultural and environmental sensitivity. I could go on and on.
These puppy people in fact claim to be a subversive group within a largely left leaning genre . Since there has long been a large sub-genre of libertarian and right-wing science fiction, this is not quite accurate, but they are certainly not defenders of some imaginary and cartoonish status quo.

2
KiTA  Aug 23, 2015 • 1:26:25pm

The entire point of Sad Puppies, ran by Democrat Brad R Torgersen, was to prove that the Hugos were being fixed by a group of gatekeepers keeping out the “wrong sort of fans.”

To this end they did the unforgivable sin of nominating works without the permission of the right sort of fans. Disgusting, horrible misogynistic works with absolutely no literary value like The Dresden Files and John C Wright’s One Bright Star to Guide Them.

And in response, the CHORFs — the Cliquish, Holier-than-thou, Obnoxious, Reactionary, Fanatics — that were gatekeeping the Hugos decided to destroy them rather than let some good works nominated by the “wrong sort of fans” win an award.

They proved the Sad Puppies point better than anyone hoped or feared. The Hugos have been forever tarnished, because a bunch of cliquish gatekeepers chose to burn it to the ground rather than let people guilty of wrongthink vote on works that weren’t pre-chosen to win by a tiny clique of TOR editors. Just like George R R Martin warned not to do back in April.

3
Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 23, 2015 • 1:39:39pm

DEMOCRAT!!11!!
GATEKEEPING!!11!!!
CHORFs!!11!!

so much butthurt…

4
KiTA  Aug 23, 2015 • 1:56:28pm

re: #3 Backwoods_Sleuth

DEMOCRAT!!11!!
GATEKEEPING!!11!!!
CHORFs!!11!!

so much butthurt…

Embedded Image

No butthurt, just a sad shaking of the head. Remember, the people fixing the hugos swore up and down that slates weren’t a thing, weren’t important, that there wasn’t any politicization of the votes, yadda yadda.

The Sad Puppies won. It’s sad to see a prestigious award like the Hugos get tarnished because a tiny minority of fans have been using it to push a political agenda — even one I agree with — but that’s where we’re at.

Who can now say with a straight face that the Hugos represent fandom? That they’re a prestigious award? We just saw a cabal of political hacks vote No Award not on the merits of the nominees, but just to spite the “wrong sort of fans” voting.

5
Jayleia  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:19:51pm

re: #2 KiTA

First: WTF was the point in mentioning he’s a democrat? Were you counting on us to assume that means he’s a liberal and therefore an SJW and accept his POV because the Lizardim are so trusting? If so…welcome to the Mirror Universe…things are different here.

But kidding aside, the whole Puppybullshitgate was not, is not, and will NEVER be about nominating good sci-fi. Its always about SJWs. You know as well as I do, that many of the “fans” that voted puppy had no goddamn clue about anything they were voting on, they were just zerging the voting system because they heard it would piss off the SJWs.

6
KiTA  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:25:19pm

re: #5 Jayleia

But kidding aside, the whole Puppybullshitgate was not, is not, and will NEVER be about nominating good sci-fi. Its always about SJWs. You know as well as I do, that many of the “fans” that voted puppy had no goddamn clue about anything they were voting on, they were just zerging the voting system because they heard it would piss off the SJWs.

Presto-chango:

But kidding aside, the whole Puppybullshitgate was not, is not, and will NEVER be about nominating good sci-fi. Its always about Conservative authors. You know as well as I do, that many of the “fans” that voted anti-puppy had no goddamn clue about anything they were voting on, they were just zerging the voting system because they heard it would piss off the Puppies.

A quick examination of the raw numbers show that the Puppies did not vote lockstep, where as those following Moen’s Puppy Kicker Slate absolutely did.

7
Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:26:22pm

Cabal of political hacks!!11!!
SJW!!11!!!

only thing missing is
PURITY TESTS!!11!!!!!!!!!!

8
KiTA  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:30:07pm

re: #7 Backwoods_Sleuth

Cabal of political hacks!!11!!
SJW!!11!!!

only thing missing is
PURITY TESTS!!11!!!!!!!!!!

Embedded Image

Do you have anything to actually contribute to this discussion, or are you just going to continue to act like a Redstate poster?

9
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:31:03pm

re: #8 KiTA

Do you have anything to actually contribute to this discussion, or are you just going to continue to act like a Redstate poster?

With how you respond, there’s no point.

10
KiTA  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:33:32pm

re: #9 klys (maker of Silmarils)

With how you respond, there’s no point.

Yes, disagreeing with people is a horrible thing, and I should feel bad for doing it. I’m sorry. Have a cookie?

11
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:35:50pm

re: #10 KiTA

Yes, disagreeing with people is a horrible thing, and I should feel bad for doing it. I’m sorry. Have a cookie?

Yeah, I’ve disagreed with you before, and all that got me was a lot of irritation, you spewing a lot of Gamergate talking points, and no sense at all that you were listening to anything I said.

I don’t bother any more.

However, defense of any organization associated with Theodore Beale will get downdings from me. Strange, that.

12
William Lewis  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:36:30pm

re: #4 KiTA

With the success of NO AWARD, I’d say that Yes the Hugos reflect fans much more than the Sick Puppies do.

13
Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:38:35pm

As a point of reference, I have been involved in the SF community since the mid-70s.
I have been voting for Hugo awards (and actually reading each nomination) longer than many lizards have been alive.
I don’t need a gamergate apologist lecturing me about this year’s Hugo crapfest.

14
goddamnedfrank  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:40:14pm
15
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:40:24pm

This is, by the way, a useful excerpt from the article that people might appreciate seeing:

While waiting for Sasquan’s annual Masquerade costume competition to begin Friday night, I overheard a man clad all in tie-dye tell his tie-dye swathed companion something very similar: “I like the type of books the Puppies were promoting. I just don’t like the way they did it.”

The reality is that the Hugos never represented all of fandom. They represented the folks who attended Worldcon, which is a community same as any others. Some folks felt excluded from that community - and I am not here to judge the validity of that - and their response was to attempt to burn it down.

A lot of people can disagree with that without having to be part of a secret political cabal. Dear god, the conspiracy theories that have come out of this are incredibly pathetic. Like. Really.

16
KiTA  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:48:38pm

re: #11 klys (maker of Silmarils)

Yeah, I’ve disagreed with you before, and all that got me was a lot of irritation, you spewing a lot of Gamergate talking points, and no sense at all that you were listening to anything I said.

I don’t bother any more.

However, defense of any organization associated with Theodore Beale will get downdings from me. Strange, that.

The Sad Puppies are not in any way associated with Vox Day, and to suggest so is dishonest.

re: #12 William Lewis

With the success of NO AWARD, I’d say that Yes the Hugos reflect fans much more than the Sick Puppies do.

But only the “right kind of fans,” right? Because the Sad Puppies, they’re not real fans, they’re … ugh… GamerGaters (even though Sad Puppies existed years before GamerGate) and ugh, Dudebros, Conservative, Vox Day Clones, Misogynists, Anti-Feminists, (Insert your favorite boogyman here).

Because you can’t be a realfan if you support GamerGate. You can’t be a realfan if you don’t shun Vox Day hard enough. You can’t be a realfan if you’re not a third wave TERF. You can’t be a realfan if you don’t agree with the realfans in any way whatsoever.

Listen, I’ve attracted my downvoting fanclub again, so I’ll just leave with this: The entire point of the Sad Puppies were to point out that the Hugos were being influenced by voting blocs — slates, in other words. The “other side” insisted that this wasn’t true and that even if it was, they didn’t have much influence.

In this regard, the Sad Puppies absolutely, without a doubt, proved their point.

Just because you happen to like the political stance that the No Award bloc took, doesn’t make it less of a bloc, nor does it in any way disprove that the Hugos are affected by this sort of manipulation. The only difference is this year the manipulation was out in the open.

17
Dark_Falcon  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:50:26pm

re: #14 goddamnedfrank

[Embedded content]

Why do we have to have an “A-7” scenario? Can’t we have an A-10 Scenario instead?

18
Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:51:49pm

re: #16 KiTA

Vox Day was totally behind the stealth nominations for the Hugos this year.
TOTALLY.

I saw it, researched it, and noted it here at LGF when it happened.

To assert he was not, you obviously think we are all stupid.

So be it.

Have a fucking cookie.

19
William Lewis  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:52:20pm

re: #16 KiTA

The Sad Puppies are not in any way associatedin bed with with Vox Day, and to suggest so otherwise is dishonest.

Fixed that for you. One is just more honest about their hate than the other.

20
KiTA  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:54:50pm

re: #18 Backwoods_Sleuth

Vox Day was totally behind the stealth nominations for the Hugos this year.
TOTALLY.

I saw it, researched it, and noted it here at LGF when it happened.

To assert he was not, you obviously think we are all stupid.

So be it.

Have a fucking cookie.

Nope. Vox Day is behidn the Rabid Puppies, a different thing entirely.

Here’s the Sad Puppies 3 slate. Explain to me how this list is so utterly horrible that the authors on it should be shunned just for being on it?

Hell, Jim Butcher has gotten death threats over this. Over being voted on by the wrong kind of fans. Something is seriously wrong with people.

21
Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:57:21pm

re: #20 KiTA

Blame it on Vox Day.
It’s all on him.

22
KiTA  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:58:47pm

re: #21 Backwoods_Sleuth

Blame it on Vox Day.
It’s all on him.

“You’re honestly linking Little Green Footballs? Don’t you know Pamela Geller used to post there?”

23
Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 23, 2015 • 2:59:41pm

re: #22 KiTA

“You’re honestly linking Little Green Footballs? Don’t you know Pamela Geller used to post there?”

Fuck off.

24
Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:03:34pm

PAM GELLER POSTED AT LGF!!11!!! YER ARGUMENT IS INVALID!!!11!!

25
Eric The Fruit Bat  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:03:36pm

re: #21 Backwoods_Sleuth

Vox Day has a section just for himself in the Encyclpedia of American Loons.

He may be a passable SF writer, but I’ll let the diagnosis speak for itself:

Diagnosis: Exasperatingly ignorant bigot and anti-science loon and lover of middle school level fallacies. In fact, he is the very epitome of a crank. He does in fact have a fair amount of readers, however, and must be considered dangerous.

26
goddamnedfrank  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:06:55pm
27
KiTA  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:08:57pm

re: #23 Backwoods_Sleuth

Fuck off.

It’s the same damned thing I have to deal with whenever I try to use LGF as a source.

How is that any less BS than going “I heard Vox Day might be involved, that means the entire group has absolutely no valid points?” It’s the same exact fallacy.

28
Decatur Deb  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:10:38pm

re: #1 Shiplord Kirel

Sorry, I stopped reading right there. This is an uninformed and wildly inaccurate stereotype used by people who want to disparage the entire genre but who cannot be bothered to actually learn anything about it. It hasn’t been even close to the truth since perhaps 1950.
Samuel “Chip” Delaney, who is black and very publicly gay, won a Hugo almost 50 years ago for Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones The New York fan club and writer’s circle known as the Futurians had a decidedly leftist bent and defined SF from the 30s until quite recently. The membership list is a Who’s Who of SF from the 30s onward and included such iconic figures as Isaac Asimov, James Blish, and Fred Pohl.
In the 50s, Ursula K. LeGuin and many others published works that were decades ahead of their time in terms of cultural and environmental sensitivity. I could go on and on.
These puppy people in fact claim to be a subversive group within a largely left leaning genre . Since there has long been a large sub-genre of libertarian and right-wing science fiction, this is not quite accurate, but they are certainly not defenders of some imaginary and cartoonish status quo.

Cordwainer Smith’s The Lady Who Sailed the Soul was written in the late 50s. The heroine, Helen America, is a legendary pilot who endured hideous self-sacrifice to found a new world. She is a self-directed feminist who had an unashamed affair and an abortion of choice.

Smith was perhaps the most ‘political’ SF writer of all, in his real life.
en.wikipedia.org

29
Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:10:57pm

re: #27 KiTA

It’s the same damned thing I have to deal with whenever I try to use LGF as a source.

How is that any less BS than going “I heard Vox Day might be involved, that means the entire group has absolutely no valid points?” It’s the same exact fallacy.

I did not “hear” Vox Day might be involved, I investigated.
There was no fallacy on my part.

But then, I’m not a gamergate cheerleader.

30
William Lewis  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:15:22pm

re: #28 Decatur Deb

“Scanners Live In Vain”

31
KiTA  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:17:57pm

re: #29 Backwoods_Sleuth

I did not “hear” Vox Day might be involved, I investigated.
There was no fallacy on my part.

But then, I’m not a gamergate cheerleader.

Well then please, share your sources and evidence.

32
Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:19:35pm

re: #31 KiTA

Well then please, share your sources and evidence.

Maybe if you had paid attention at the time you would know this already.
I have better things to do than do the research for you.

33
KiTA  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:21:08pm

re: #32 Backwoods_Sleuth

Maybe if you had paid attention at the time you would know this already.
I have better things to do than do the research for you.

Of course. Well then we’re done here I suppose? Unless someone else would like to step in and provide this supposed evidence?

Hopefully if nothing else, Worldcon fixes the voting system in future Hugos to prevent manipulation of this kind. Can we both agree on that?

34
Shiplord Kirel  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:22:16pm

re: #28 Decatur Deb

Cordwainer Smith’s The Lady Who Sailed the Soul was written in the late 50s. The heroine, Helen America, is a legendary pilot who endured hideous self-sacrifice to found a new world. She is a self-directed feminist who had an unashamed affair and an abortion of choice.

Smith was perhaps the most ‘political’ SF writer of all, in his real life.
en.wikipedia.org

Dr. Linebarger (Cordwainer Smith) was perhaps this country’s top expert on psychological warfare in counter-insurgency situations after World War II. I have often wondered what he would have made of our Vietnam strategy in the late 60s, and if he could have influenced it for the better. It was not to be, though. He avoided Vietnam in earlier phases of the conflict and died in 1966, before the pressure of events might have forced him to take a role.

35
Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:24:02pm

re: #33 KiTA

Of course. Well then we’re done here I suppose? Unless someone else would like to step in and provide this supposed evidence?

Hopefully if nothing else, Worldcon fixes the voting system in future Hugos to prevent manipulation of this kind. Can we both agree on that?

There was no freaking “fix” just because your guys got shut out.
Do you actually believe this is the VERY FIRST TIME there was a “no award” at the Hugos? REALLY????

But, whatever makes you feel all gamergate-self satisfied.

No more cookies for you.

36
KiTA  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:31:57pm

re: #35 Backwoods_Sleuth

There was no freaking “fix” just because your guys got shut out.
Do you actually believe this is the VERY FIRST TIME there was a “no award” at at the Hugos? REALLY????

But, whatever makes you feel all gamergate-self satisfied.

No more cookies for you.

I think we’re not on the same page here.

For the record, there were 4 (initial reports said 6) No Awards this year. 5 prior to this year in the entire history of the Hugos.

The fix that the Sad Puppies are upset about isn’t the No Awards bloc. The fix was that these kinds of blocs have been going on for years behind the scenes, and the Hugos are politicized and don’t actually represent a fandom’s choice award. The scandal was that these voting slates were secret and denied by the big name fans and people in the industry that were behind them.

37
Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:32:33pm

Oh, also love how “no award” is suddenly suppressing free speech.

LMAO

38
KiTA  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:33:18pm

re: #37 Backwoods_Sleuth

Oh, also love how “no award” is suddenly suppressing free speech.

LMAO

Please show me where I said that? Alternately, please show me the quote from me that you are interpreting as me taking that stance.

39
Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:34:27pm

re: #37 Backwoods_Sleuth

Oh, also love how “no award” is suddenly suppressing free speech.

LMAO

was I talking to you?

40
KiTA  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:35:10pm

re: #39 Backwoods_Sleuth

Apparently not. I apologize for the presumption.

41
goddamnedfrank  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:39:34pm

It’s the same gamergate shit all over again. The Sad Puppies are Angry Jack, aka the true believers. Vox Day & Co (Rabid Puppies) are the shit throwing nihilistic trolls. The two groups feed off of one another for legitimacy, cover, and denial in a kind of toxic symbiosis.

42
klys (maker of Silmarils)  Aug 23, 2015 • 3:53:35pm

re: #41 goddamnedfrank

It’s the same gamergate shit all over again. The Sad Puppies are Angry Jack, the true believers. Vox Day & Co (Rabid Puppies) are the shit throwing nihilistic trolls. The two groups feed off of one another for legitimacy, cover, and denial in a kind of toxic symbiosis.

Nah, that just means you’ve bought into the SJW conspiracy theory, because if you were truly a reasonable person and looked at the evidence, you’d totally come around.

I mean, that’s what’s wrong with most of us here, right?

43
CleverToad  Aug 23, 2015 • 4:05:07pm

re: #13 Backwoods_Sleuth

FIAWOL vs. FIJAGH? (Or is that going to start another battle?)

You’ve got the street cred, fer sure. I used to be WOL but stepped back to JAGH a couple of decades ago. Was sad to miss this Worldcon in Spokane, but I regret last year’s in London even more.

Reading this thread while we transfer old Technical Difficulties filk tapes to a CD. Reminding myself of things I love about fandom, having lived through some of the flamewars.

44
Decatur Deb  Aug 23, 2015 • 4:06:28pm

re: #43 CleverToad

FIAWOL vs. FIJAGH? (Or is that going to start another battle?)

You’ve got the street cred, fer sure. I used to be WOL but stepped back to JAGH a couple of decades ago. Was sad to miss this Worldcon in Spokane, but I regret last year’s in London even more.

Reading this thread while we transfer old Technical Difficulties filk tapes to a CD. Reminding myself of things I love about fandom, having lived through some of the flamewars.

Verdi help us if LGF ever gets the inside scoop on the machinations of La Scala opera.

45
William Lewis  Aug 23, 2015 • 4:07:36pm

re: #43 CleverToad

That reminds me, I need to find my copy of “To Touch The Stars”.

46
Backwoods_Sleuth  Aug 23, 2015 • 4:07:49pm

re: #43 CleverToad

I’ve just enjoyed SF/fantasy since the late 50s.
All these many decades later, either a story is written well enough to make me turn the pages, and want to read more when the story is finished, or it isn’t.
All this SJW shit is just that…shit.

47
William Lewis  Aug 23, 2015 • 4:08:58pm

re: #43 CleverToad

PS, I’ll take the hobby camp. Life is too short.

48
CleverToad  Aug 23, 2015 • 4:20:41pm

wotthehell archy

9 to 5 Barbarian

OT, courtesy of Bill Sutton

49
sffilk  Aug 24, 2015 • 11:34:23am

re: #43 CleverToad

FIAWOL vs. FIJAGH? (Or is that going to start another battle?)
Reading this thread while we transfer old Technical Difficulties filk tapes to a CD. Reminding myself of things I love about fandom, having lived through some of the flamewars.

You transferred that to a CD? What would it take to get a copy, and which album did you transfer? I thought there were two out.

Filker here (as well as filk con concom and organizer of local housefilks).

50
Uraniabce  Aug 24, 2015 • 3:31:28pm

re: #1 Shiplord Kirel

I agree. But it was exactly that stereotype the Sad and Rabid Puppies were fighting to uphold.

51
AyaReiko  Aug 24, 2015 • 10:08:34pm

Here’s the sad part; The No Award “victory” is EXACTLY what the Puppy Factions wanted. They can now claim the awards are outright biased and favors only a certain type of GroupThink. And they’ll be back next year in greater numbers. joo~ooy…

52
I Stand With Planned Parenthood  Aug 25, 2015 • 6:08:44am
Nonetheless, based on his voluminous writings, it can be said that Theodore Beale—who writes fiction as a hobby while working as a game designer—openly opposes racial diversity, homosexuality, and women’s suffrage. Beale quibbles with those assertions, as he did with me when I reached him at his home in Northern Italy. For example, he says he doesn’t oppose all women’s suffrage, just women (and most men) voting in a representative democracy, like the one we have, um, in America. The reason: “Women are very, very highly inclined to value security over liberty” and thus are “very, very easy to manipulate.” (He favors direct democracy—and, obviously, men). At one point, he emailed that he would be “very disappointed” if I failed to quote the Wall Street Journal’s label for him: “the most despised man in science fiction.”

nice

/

53
CleverToad  Aug 25, 2015 • 5:31:42pm

re: #49 sffilk

Just a dabbler, alas. Co-wrote several Doctor Who filks with a couple of friends (okay, quite a few filks) but didn’t have the voice or instrumental skills to perform. Or the nerve. But loved Technical Difficulties — had both Station Break and Please Stand By on cassette at one time. Also a copy of the multi-performer tape Look What Followed Me Home. The tape we we were attempting to copy is a cassette I got from my sister who’s a more serious filkfan; it included songs from both TD albums plus a few extras from Bill Sutton.

Sad to say, the attempt to record onto CD did NOT work, going to have to find another device. Boogers.

Found this interesting note on the intertubes:
seattlewebcrafters.com
If the link doesn’t work, they’re noting that TJ Burnside Clapp was talking to Bill Roper in 2006 about putting the albums on CD through Dodeka Records. Alas, no indication that it’s actually been done.

Are you collecting filks, I ask in interest?


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North Mississippi Allstars - ‘Drunk Outdoors’ [Audio Only]From the album 'Up and Rolling,' available October 4, 2019: geni.us
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1 week, 3 days ago
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Dr. Demento & John Cafiero - What’s in My Bag? Dr. Demento and John Cafiero go shopping at Amoeba Music in Los Angeles. Check out their picks:Cal Stewart - Uncle Josh's Letter from Home (78) Spike Jones - Ugga Ugga Boo Ugga Boo Boo Ugga (78) Johnny Otis Orchestra ...
Thanos
2 weeks, 2 days ago
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