Jump to bottom


William Lewis  Apr 27, 2016 • 9:44:40pm

First, remove the self inflicted deaths. That drops you to about 12,000.

Then regarding responsibility for the use/abuse of the firearm - that is already the law. Talk to prosecutors about enforcement.

Personally I am far more concerned with the roughly 440,000 killed by medical malpractice. I am far more likely to suffer from that than from the misuse of a firearm.

Great White Snark  Apr 28, 2016 • 8:08:44am

First thanks for a thoughtful approach.

As a guy that helps run a big sporting facility for target shooting I have a lot of ongoing time and effort in safety advocacy and gun rights advocacy. I am biased in favor of the shooting sports and as one option in a wide self defense decision tree for those of us at home.

I’m going to point out a few ways that in my personal view would reduce resistance from gun owners to certain gun law changes. (I don’t speak at all online as any kind of spokesperson for the range) I don’t name it or link it here, so you’ll have to trust a little I’m being honest with you.

First though, the big elephants in the room. The NRA Congress envelopment. The GOP congress in particular. That has got to be addressed. Especially the wild rhetoric. We desperately need a working middle ground to prevail in the GOP. When? Maybe never. Se La Vie. Maybe the party will lose clout. Then some good laws can pass.

Until Heller, the hotly contested decision for the 2nd as an individual right the prospect of a national database registry was a lot more worrisome. And I find that understandable. The stronger the the right is guaranteed, the less sense the gun confiscation paranoia makes. To those that want to see that decision reversed, well please notice the connection. I hope that seems a sensible link.

I don’t disagree with the personal liability at all. It’s chapter and verse from our safety instructional texts.

One way I am certain we can reduce guns from getting into criminal hands is to ship them differently. Many are stolen between factory and store. Or wholesaler/dealer and store. Ask any ATF agent whose job it is to inspect stores and enforce DROS rules about that. The numbers are surprisingly large. They don’t offer that data on paper.

Something else that makes sensible change harder. Nonsense proposals that are put up as desperate workarounds because sensible change was deemed inadequate or unavailable. For examples take a look at proposals our lifelong Democrat Governor Jerry Brown has declined to sign once they came up from the legislature.

Lastly, it’s easy to safely store the sporting guns between outings. I agree those must be in a safe, breech/trigger locked or taken out of service. California has taken a sensible approach where the self defense last resort gun is kept, something the adult owner can open but not a kid or thief easily.

Renaissance_Man  Apr 28, 2016 • 8:02:27pm

I read your article and the one you linked.

I am probably the most anti-gun person on LGF. I believe the various suggestions that are generally put forward as ‘common sense’ gun regulations are either pointless vacillations that will make no dent in gun violence, nit-picking that deliberately tries to make no difference at all to gun ownership or deaths, or unrealistic ideas that have no chance of success or acceptance .

Partly, this is because, to an extent, one of the most vacuous arguments used in favour of guns is partly true - if you make more small laws, only people inclined towards responsibility will effectively follow them. In other words, the small changes that are made around the laws will make absolutely no difference to the nation and culture as a whole. For this reason, the article you link and the overall suggestion of linking gun ownership to a sense of gun responsibility is not an effective one. It is nothing more than a restating of the same idea that gun owners usually put forward - ‘my guns aren’t the problem, I’m not the problem, I’m responsible. It’s those other guys out there that are irresponsible with their guns that are the problem.’ The second part of this that naturally follows is, then, ‘if only those other people were responsible with their guns like me, we’d have so much less of a problem.’

America’s gun problem is not, at its core, a problem of lax laws, though it certainly has lax laws. It’s not a problem of poor law enforcement, though it certainly has that too. It is a problem of culture. It is a collective problem - as a nation, America has decided that 30k gun deaths a year and regular mass shootings is acceptable. These are acceptable losses so that people can own, play with, and worship guns. And I say it is a collective problem because humans act differently individually and in groups; what someone says and does individually can be very different to how they act in the group, because of diffusion of responsibility and inability to see large-scale effects when focused on their own personal scale. If you asked individual Americans which was more important, a child or a gun, the vast majority would choose the person. But collectively, as a nation, that’s not the choice America makes. That is why gun deaths do not decrease. That is why no substantive debate can be had on guns. And that is why no effective change will be made on guns for at least a generation - because cultural changes take time.

I believe the solution to America’s gun problem can only be cultural, rather than legal. It can only come in the same way that smoking, once a large part of social culture, became not culturally acceptable - ultimately a generation comes along that thinks such behaviour is unpleasant and distasteful. And slowly, such things become phased out. Perhaps it will never happen - smoking, after all, is much more personally lethal than a gun. But human sacrifice used to be cultural as well, and that became repellent eventually, so I continue to have hope.

dangerman  Apr 29, 2016 • 3:27:33pm

re: #1 William Lewis

Professional (medical) malpractice is an important issue, to be sure. It’s just not one that dogged me to write this diary. I wasn’t approaching it as whether it could happen to me.

And med mal can be instructive, to a point. Outcomes are not always certain or controllable. And conscientious people do make honest mistakes. Those are acceptable risks I am willing to take as a patient. It’s the reckless ones you don’t know are coming.

Many industries self-police. Both good faith and careless errors have long since been factored in by the profession, the licensing bodies, and the individual. Training, professional standards, continuing ed, insurance, and the like are givens for both self preservation and legitimacy. And part of the good guy’s insurance rates are due to all the bad guys losing lawsuits.

As compared to gun commerce and ownership.

Outcomes can be clearly certain in most circumstances, and I mean use, handling, storage, and transfer.

You’re right. Remove the determined, self inflicted deaths. I have no idea what percentage of the remaining were convenient / or easy access situations that might not have occurred. As I wrote, we must also include all the injured, some 60-100k or so. And that’s just the direct stuff.

There are far too many handling, storage, and transfer incidents - you know all that “common sense” stuff - that are written off as accidents or tragedies rather than met with stiff penalties. Lazy, greedy, or just plain boneheaded behavior.

Prosecutorial discretion won’t stop the idiots or maniacs. Stronger, clear, unambiguous laws will start to make many people think twice before acting or failing to act.

And, to be glib for a moment, “talk to prosecutors” is like saying “make better doctors”.

No law can make better doctors. And still they already self-protect. When it comes to guns, virtually no one does. As long as the good guys don’t lobby for consequences for the bad guys, the good guys who screw up are in the clear.

A right to devastating destructive power and virtually no responsibilities attached.

And thanks.

dangerman  Apr 29, 2016 • 4:13:24pm

re: #2 Great White Snark

In reading your response, I realized I have almost no opinion about guns. Any more than I do about so many other things. They exist and are not leaving. The issue that seems to be gelling in my head is this masquerade of responsibility that is actually shielding the irresponsible.

I also take the NRA lobby issue as a given. That’s why I said call the bluff. I focus on their most basic of basic position and rhetoric - “we are already responsible”. And only that - no more no less, should be codified in laws somehow.

I mean even “arm teachers, kids, etc.” has a perverse logic to it that someone could try and say with a weirdly contorted straight face. Cause no one else actually has to do anything.

If they don’t wholeheartedly support personal responsibility in law, or worse, find some way to actively oppose it, then the mask comes off and we know the “responsible” talk was a lie all along. Own guns and no accountability? How does that work? And how does everyone who just heard that react?

In order to get stuff done, I agree with this: “The stronger the right is guaranteed, the less sense the gun confiscation paranoia makes.” That’s why I don’t advocate any of the “restrictions” approaches. Never gonna happen. I think there certainly needs to be some information publicly available so I can know whether I’m selling to someone who I shouldn’t. There is no need to register guns. There does need to be a mechanism for me to to prove I lawfully and reasonable transferred a weapon and it is no longer my responsibility.

Shipping - no argument from me. Any solution that works is a good solution. And the desperate workarounds. And storage - reasonable steps that get the job done
Make folks responsible criminally, financially, and threaten their right to bear arms with due process and all these small, clever and destined to fail approaches melt away in irrelevance.

Consequences for your own behavior and choices. Solutions that work and don’t restrict.


This page has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2021-06-05 2:51 pm PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds Tweet

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Shop at amazon
as an LGF Associate!
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Train Songs Five
A hollow voice says Vaccinate the world!
4 days, 7 hours ago
Views: 340 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 6
Tweets: 0 •
Train Songs Four
A hollow voice says Vaccinate the world!
4 days, 8 hours ago
Views: 335 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 4
Tweets: 0 •
Train Songs Three
A hollow voice says Vaccinate the world!
4 days, 8 hours ago
Views: 326 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 4
Tweets: 0 •
Snarky Puppy - Trinity (Extended Version) Snarky Puppy never lets you down, they always come out bright and enthusiastically high on the sounds. Snarky Puppy - Trinity (Extended Version)From Snarky Puppy's new album, Empire Central (September 2022, GroundUP Music)Stream/Buy: Written by Mark LettieriArranged by ...
1 week, 2 days ago
Views: 673 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 2
Tweets: 2 •