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1
Thanos  Jun 24, 2016 • 7:54:14am

Downding for unattributed copypasta that originated with this steaming pile of shit:

splcenter.org

It’s all over sovereign citizen & militia sites and forums, so I wouldn’t put too much faith in this read. You can also find the same sort of garbage ‘splaining why you don’t got to pay no taxes!

Following his retirement from the Phoenix Police Department in 1986, McLamb became active on the Patriot circuit, speaking at various events (often wearing his police uniform) and running a shortwave radio show where he often railed against the “New World Order” – a feared totalitarian “one world government.” He produced a periodical called Aid & Abet Police Newsletter and, most famously, a 75-page document titled Operation Vampire Killer 2000: American Police Action Plan for Stopping World Government Rule, written in 1992 (Conspiracy-monger Alex Jones is selling the updated version in his Infowars store). McLamb also ran a group called Police Against the New World Order and made the unlikely claim that he had an 6,300 members.

McLamb was perhaps best known for his claim that the government placed unobtrusive colored dots on people’s mailboxes so that troops serving the New World Order after martial law is declared would know what to do with the people living at each address. A blue dot meant that you were destined for a FEMA-operated concentration camp; pink indicated you were to be used for slave labor; red meant you were to be shot in the head immediately.

McLamb also was involved in the development of a right-wing housing community called “Almost Heaven,” located near Kamiah, Idaho, in 1994. The community was supposed to “make a stand” against the New World Order. McLamb’s partners in that failed venture included Bo Gritz, a decorated Vietnam veteran and follower of the racist and anti-Semitic Christian Identity religion, and Jerry Gillespie, a former Arizona state senator who opposed the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday and who coordinated the Arizona campaign for Gritz’s failed 1992 presidential bid.

2
Great White Snark  Jun 24, 2016 • 10:22:36am

Edited to remove the offensive sourced article. Replaced with the Justia link. More to come…Because a good case can be made the no fly list is state sponsored ethnic profiling in it’s results. Intent I’ll let others judge. The list is so far out there, it has rightly enraged reasonable and completely unreasonable people.

3
CuriousLurker  Jun 25, 2016 • 2:04:42am

FYI, your link to the article “Racial Profiling in the Name of National Security: Protecting Minority Travlers’ Civil Liberties in the Age of Terrorism” isn’t working, however the entire 43-page piece is available here as a PDF (it’s not embeddable, sorry).

Also, the links in the quoted section of the Wikipedia article you cited are broken because they’re relative to en.wikipedia.org, meaning they assume that the links to other Wikipedia articles are on the same server (therefore they end up referencing littlegreenfootballs.com instead of en.wikipedia.org).

My response ended up being WAY longer than I intended, so I’m putting it in spoiler tags for those who might not want to have to scroll past all of it. Sheesh—see? This is why I don’t like discussing this subject.

In a recent Page it became apparent that some think the government can arbitrarily impede our travel from city to city, state to state. No they cannot.

I can’t recall ever having seen anyone here make such an assertion, can you point out what you’re referring to? If you’re talking about your discussion with blueraven, my understanding was that she was arguing that there are no absolutes—all of our rights, by necessity, have limits.

Even 13A doesn’t guarantee absolute freedom from slavery—there is an exception for penal labor. According to this article all of our rights have limits except for 3A (proscribing the private quartering of troops), which is apparently the only one that has never been challenged, primarily because it has no relevance nowadays.

What’s being said is that the government can indeed restrict our travel—it is in fact doing so already—even without due process. FWIW—and I just learned this—the No-fly List existed prior to 9/11, but it was small (16 people). How did it become the monstrosity it is now? Is it even legal? It seems like it shouldn’t be based on its lack of due process, but… but what? In the immediate aftermath of 9/11 did some of the rights we gave up include things like this list? I don’t know, I’ve never read the PATRIOT Act in full, have you? Has anyone here at LGF? Even if we had, I doubt most of us have sufficient legal knowledge to fully understand what we were giving up.

My point is that the above is why people will get testy when you bring it up as a deal breaker WRT the 2A. The list is unlikely to be “fixed” any time soon, so simply saying “Well, it’s no good because due process, therefore the right to purchase firearms can’t be linked to someone being on it,” comes across as somewhat facile & disingenuous.

I’m not saying that YOU are being dishonest, I’m simply saying that the situation isn’t as simplistic as you’re making it sound, which is almost guaranteed to make people upset with you because it can be interpreted as somewhat myopic and/or less than honest/logical. We were warned about the dangers of giving up our rights in exchange for (the illusion of) security. Where was the concern for due process on 9/12/2001? Was it okay to skip it at the time because we were scared and/or we thought it wouldn’t affect everyone (only those scary foreign terrorists)?

We screwed up big time and now we have to try to fight our way to getting our protections back. Sure, tacking another restriction onto an already dubious law might not be the best idea (two wrongs don’t make a right), but then neither is allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good. There were hundreds of mass shootings in the U.S. in 2015. The slaughter must be stopped or at least greatly reduced—this is not the behavior of a healthy, civilized society that will thrive.

Anyway, below is a document provided by the North Carolina ACLU. It is described in a Wikipedia footnote as follows:

“TSA Watch Lists, December 2002” (PDF), a PowerPoint presentation by the U.S. Department of Transportation’s Transportation Security Intelligence Service. Entered into public record as Attachment A, Part 1, during Gordon v. FBI, 2003.” (PDF). Retrieved December 27, 2007.

It’s not at all clear to me who authorized the pre-9/11 list and, according to its history, even the post-9/11 list is something the general public wasn’t even aware of until 2006. WTF did we get ourselves into?

4
Great White Snark  Jun 26, 2016 • 9:21:04am

CL Thanks for taking the time. Yeah, the links thing was a surprise. Between that and struggling with Chrome lately, I may just re visit this whole topic. With a little help from an attorney that enjoys helping me with this kind of thing. I think with you and some my case is clear, the no fly list is a legal aberration that may not be helping us.

In a way this is simple. New laws obey old laws same as we have to. It’s how to make that stick that is complicated. The concept? Not really. With due process we are avoiding or ending a case at a time ethnic and religious discrimination. Due process is how courts protect citizens and others from injustice of the law itself.

With Blue Raven, at no point did I describe any right as absolute. The core point is the limits are of or from a legal “due” process. A process that provides checks and balances through and through. The no fly list is essentially the opposite. Plus I think the right of travel as illuminated by various high courts came as a real surprise to Blue. Any right can be limited, but the limits must also face up to a due process challenge.
As far as the alleged utility of the list for guns, well I simply insist new laws obey the old. The very idea of the no fly list comes from two things-An exaggerated sense of it’s accuracy and a purely speculative or at best asserted point of efficacy. Knee jerk “do something”.

But why that something?

I did read the Patriot Act. Over the course of a month. Yes I needed some help. Precedent etc gets thick as heck. One way to summarize it is this-We are so scared of this imminent terror threat we are no longer requiring these sometimes secret laws in particular to have the same due process as we had in the past. Hence the Orwellian name, and ultra caffeinated fervor by agencies. Past that it enumerates details of who and how and indulges a little national ego polishing.

I double or triple down on this for a few reasons. First, (again with legal help) I can make a good legal case for lack of due process in the no fly list. I’m even aware of the cases where it held up on the basis one could take another vehicle, like a train or bus. Until Amtrak adopts the no fly, or Greyhound. I guess if you need to go to another continent, better book a Carnival cruise. Or learn to sail.

That’s once.. Here goes the doubling. Or tripling. They can’t take a pile of crap like the no fly list and pretend it’s legal enough to broaden it’s effects. Not for domestic travel, not for guns, not for anything suddenly warrant-less that used to require a warrant if only a FISA warrant.

Slippery slope-
What happens when you get stopped at a DUI checkpoint, sober as any non drinker can be and your name comes up for the police from the no fly database when they do that wants and warrants thing? Probable cause to make you step out of the car for a deeper review and search because you are within 5 miles of an airport or 100 of the border?

So why suddenly expand the no fly to guns? There really is only one reason. Our legislators can’t pass what we need because they sold out. The no fly list lets them keep taking all that money, further impeding legit gun control and get the votes from low info voters that think the no fly list has due process.

Who can make a good case that is an acceptable basis on which to proceed? I invite the effort. Instead-Pass laws like what Hawaii just did. Universal registration. If the Feds won’t act the states may, some do. Some have already.

Some may interpret my motives as overlaid with NRA. Or self centered as a gun owner and range operator. That circumstance in my life is obvious and inarguable. However, what that forgets though is many posts and pages on our civil liberties quite apart from guns. I have attacked the Patriot Act and the No Fly list dozens of times, exclusive of gun rights discussions. I stood up to speak in an atmosphere of a horrible deliberate tragedy, at the confluence of a high point of need for better gun control, and a widely misunderstood shady list of people made in part by the same agencies that refuse to follow procedures even after a court ruling against them. Famous But Incompetent. .


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