re: #819 Obdicut

Well, the brain is a physical object, and the processes are phenomena occurring from that structure. You don’t disagree with that, right?

I agree.

Because I’m trying to make the point that each structure that incrementally grew was useful in and of itself at the time that it evolved, without the higher complexity that came later.

No, each structure is not useful in and of itself, it depends on the other already existing structures to function properly.

I’m sorry, but if they weren’t independent of each other, you couldn’t knock one out and have the others remain, it would take them all down. I didn’t say that losing one would have no effect on the whole— in fact, my main point is that if you remove one, the whole loses far more than just that one. I’ve been very, very clear about that.

Let’s say we knock out a specific cognitive function X. If knocking X out doesn’t effect cognitive functions A or B but completely eliminates cognitive functions C and D and has an intermediate effect on E and F then would you agree that cognitive functions C and D, if not E and F, were dependent on X?

Well, as I keep saying, the sum is greater than the parts. If you knock one of those parts out, the sum is decreased by a greater degree than just that one part. This is my point.

I agree.

No idea what this means.

What I have been saying all along, I don’t think that any cognitive function is specific to humans. Only their sum.

Lemme put it another way:

The functions are independent from each other. The phenomena are not.

The functions are abstractions of processes in the brain. The functions are always supported by underlying structures. Those structures are not found separate from each other in nature but always as part of a network of structures that depend on each other. Cognitive functions can be conceptualized as separate entities, but are not wholly separate from each other in reality.

Er, they have to have the capacity to display kindness, right?

I would argue yes, depending on how you define kindness. Are you finally agreeing with me?

The structure of the brain has to be able to support that capacity. The phenomena can’t appear in the absence of structure.

Correct. But I don’t agree that the phenomena necessarily require a certain specific structure only found in humans. There are many ways to evolve structures that exhibit various capabilities through convergent evolution. The eyes of hawks and mantis shrimp are very different structures but they both satisfy the predator’s need for high visual acuity.