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Fri, Mar 5, 2004 at 10:16:49 am PST
I call upon the lizardoid hordes to go and vote in this poll at Germany’s left-wing Spiegel Online, asking how well President Bush has done. (Hat tip: Davids Medienkritik.)
The poll options are:
1 = Bush has done a great job as President
....
6 = Bush has done a miserable job as President
After selecting “1” (heh) click on “Abstimmen” to vote. Right now, 56% have voted for “miserable.”
793 comments
3 |
J.D. Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:20:30am |
Sie haben für dieses Vote bereits abgestimmt!
What could this possibly say?
| 4 |
Jeff Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:21:11am |
Voted. Although we need to rock the vote fast and furious, because there are less than 400 #1 votes, but over 3500 #6 votes and over 1500 #5 votes.
| 5 |
grayp Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:22:51am |
| 6 |
Apathy Curve Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:23:11am |
"Help Drive the German Left Crazy"? Sorry, can't drive them to where they're already located. But I voted "1" anyway, in the hope that perhaps I can cause cardiac arrest in a few of them. =o)
| 9 |
Jeff Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:24:47am |
Looks like you can vote as many times as you want. I have already done it about 10 times. You have to wake up real early to fool a us!
| 10 |
andthenblammo! Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:25:15am |
Why would I want the US President to make the Germans happy? Or any other country, for that matter.
| 11 |
Ringo the Gringo Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:26:55am |
This is a very funny idea. I hope everyone at LGF takes a moment to vote.
We can scare the knockworst out of 'em.
| 13 | DWD Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:27:53am |
You can vote as often as you want if you clear your cookies after each vote!!! Otherwise, you can only vote once.
I'm pretending to be a Democrat...unfortunately I didn't get to vote eary...but, I am voting often.
| 14 | phil007 Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:28:05am |
Voted...
What would you expect from a county where they want handouts like this?
BERLIN (Reuters) - A German court rejected a legal bid on Friday by an unemployed man who wanted the state to provide him with free pornography and trips to brothels because his wife is in Thailand.The court in the southern town of Ansbach ruled that social services did not extend to satisfying the 43-year-old's sexual needs after he attempted to sue his local welfare office because it had refused to finance his appetite for prostitutes and porn.
"He wanted them to pay for four trips to the brothel a month, eight porn films a month, plus condoms," said court spokesman Peter Burgdorf. "He also wanted some sort of appliance for self-gratification to use when watching porn."
The man had earlier asked the Foreign Ministry to fly his wife back from her native Thailand, to which she had returned in 2002, saying that he could not afford the ticket.
"He said he needed the services to keep himself fit and healthy because his wife wasn't available," said Burgdorf. "Now he's planning to contest the decision in the court of appeal."
| 19 |
J.D. Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:32:23am |
(#8) andrew
That's what I figgered.
[You can't blame a girl for tryin'.]
;-)
| 20 | phil007 Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:33:56am |
Votes are now up to 536. Keep clearing those cookies!
| 21 |
Geepers Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:34:48am |
andrew (#8),
#3 J.D.It says ya can't vote twice, J.D. :-)
He's right, every time I vote there's like 6 or 7 more votes. ;-)
| 22 |
mpax Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:34:53am |
I just voted several times and I didn't clear my cookies in between.
| 23 |
Mr. Bigglesworth Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:34:56am |
I have done my Lizardoid duty, commander!
| 24 |
Right Wing Conspirator Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:34:56am |
C'mon people.
894 users on this site alone. That poll number better start jumping.
| 26 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:35:20am |
Got miene Vote!
Only 3161 more until we have a majority...
Charles,
You should send this out to other blogsites and put them on High alert...
Germans voting on how OUR President is doing, isn't that OUR job to determine?
| 27 |
mark Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:37:25am |
it's fun to watch the #1 votes pile higher and higher while the rest of the votes remain the same.
BEHOLD THE AWESOME POWER OF THE LIZARD KING!! LOOK UPON HIS WORKS, YE MORONS, AND TREMBLE
| 28 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:39:25am |
#5 grayp 3/5/2004 10:22AM PST
Hey, in your link, if I click the 'make a donation' link, does that mean, I'm donating to the Canadian Armed Forces???
If it weren't for their awsome snipers, I'd lose all respect for the Canadian Military.
| 29 |
Clutch Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:39:39am |
Can we have a vote that asks whose government are the bigger crap-weasels?
A. France
B. German
C. They are so damn close, I can't tell!
D. They have governments?!?
(I couldn't care less what the Germans or the rest of the friggin' world think about us or George Bush or the USA. This ain't a Miss Universe pagent, dummkopf, it is a FRIGGIN' WAR!)
| 30 |
andrew Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:39:53am |
#18 levi from Queens
If you're using explorer, click Tools, internet options, delete cookies.
| 32 |
levi from queens Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:40:56am |
To delete a cookie
In Internet Explorer, on the Tools menu, click Internet Options.
On the General tab, click Settings, and then click View files.
Select the cookie you want to delete, and then, on the File menu, click Delete.
Notes
Some Web sites store your member name and password or other personally identifiable information about you in a cookie; therefore, if you delete a cookie, you may need to re-enter this information the next time you visit the site.
To delete all of the cookies on your computer, click Delete Cookies on the General tab.
From MS explorer help In case there are other paleotechnical lizardoids.
| 33 |
Studebaker Hawk Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:41:31am |
I voted 10 times without clear my cookies. It seemed to count my additional votes, but that might have been you guys.
| 35 | Shelagh Delves-Broughton aka ShiksaGrrrl in T.O. Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:43:00am |
Yikes, and to think I once spoke as fluent as possible in German for a 5-6 year old at home, and cant make sense of what that page was saying! ;-)
Done, Voted!
Can someone keep us posted on the counts please?
| 36 | TucsonMike Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:43:07am |
Ok my vote is in. Not that I really care what the Germans think of our president. If they can think at all over the dogmatic indoctrination they get over there.
| 37 |
Jimmy2 Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:43:09am |
#29 clutch
You just don't get it do you. Crapweasels is not hyphenated. Great post, though. Gotta go vote!
| 38 |
BIG Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:43:21am |
Just voted about 50 times. #1 is now above 10%. (I feel like I'm back in Chicago!)
| 39 |
Dar ul Harb Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:43:59am |
Hey we can vote in Germany can't we?
We're all one big multilateral consensus building pacifistic U.N.-sanctioned family anyway, right?
*starts humming "Kumbaya"*
| 40 |
mark Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:44:52am |
Charles
how does it feel to have so many minions willing to do your bidding? How do you avoid the 'God Complex'?
And OT - but a few days ago you wrote about how certain news stories on the Yahoo feed seem to stick around longer than others, and not because of their 'news value' (mostly anti-bush stories).
My question - What the hell is up with that 'Australia to upgrade radar system' story? It's been on the wire for weeks! Is it some kind of Anti-Bush radar?
| 41 | DWD Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:45:18am |
If you do not clear your cookies you get this message: "Sie haben für dieses Vote bereits abgestimmt" which using a free internet translater means "They already voted for this Vote".
Clear your cookies in Internet Explorer by going to the "Tools" menu and selecting "Internet Options" click on "Delete Cookies" hit "OK" and hit "OK" again.
Vote, hit the back button, clear your cookies, and repeat to your hearts content.
Enjoy.
| 42 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:46:42am |
30 andrew 3/5/2004 10:39AM PST
If you're using explorer, click Tools, internet options, delete cookies.
Be careful about deleting all your cookies. If you have accounts with Amazon, Internet News Agencies and of course our lizard king, you will lose all your preferences and auto logons.
A better way is to go to the cookie directory and selectively delete the Der Spiegle cookie alone.
| 43 |
J.D. Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:47:03am |
(#40) mark
Charleshow does it feel to have so many minions willing to do your bidding? How do you avoid the 'God Complex'?
Inexplicably, George Burns usually pops into my mind.
| 44 | Shelagh Delves-Broughton aka ShiksaGrrrl in T.O. Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:47:26am |
levi from queens 3/5/2004 10:29AM PST
How do I clear my cookies?
Assuming that you are using XP, sorry but my couple of 'puters are all on XP now and I cant remember the exact buttons for 2000 or 98 but open up IE and click on
Tools.
Internet Options,
Delete Cookies
Be aware though, that when you do this, you will also be clearing cookies that have you set to automatically enter any forums, that will have traces of your passwords.
Even here, my name is usually already in its spot above its post...clearing them all will cancel all of that out.
At least this is how I remember to clear cookies?
< I use a specific program to keep them >
| 45 |
DB Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:48:19am |
#31, please keep your personal comments to yourself :)
| 46 |
mark Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:48:43am |
John Gibbon #31
the little rod is growing
Really enjoying this, huh? And don't sell yourself short! I'm sure your rod is more than adequate!
(Ha! I crack myself up!)
| 48 | Shelagh Delves-Broughton aka ShiksaGrrrl in T.O. Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:49:30am |
Guess I should have read the above posts first about how to clear cookies.
My post wasnt needed! ;-)
| 49 |
Dar ul Harb Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:50:29am |
Oops! I voted for "miserable failure"!
I can't read German!
My chad got stück!
(I hope I don't get counted as a vote for Bat Puchanan!)
| 50 |
norar Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:50:35am |
Hey, do we get to vote on Europeaser governments?
Chutzpah! and I bet those Germans who vote on Bush can also master a speech on American arrogance.
| 51 |
Gary Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:51:59am |
Voted like half a Democrat -- Often, extremely often
| 52 |
Jeff Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:52:08am |
For speed you could just do this
[Link: www1.spiegel.de...]
that way you don't have to hit back, click on 1, then submit
just put in the url and keep hitting enter
| 53 |
andthenblammo! Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:53:37am |
You can look in "Temporary Internet files"; the Spiegel cookie is "Cookie: Owner Spiegel yada yada yada"
That way, you can just delete the Spiegel cookie and not lose your preferences at that gerbil site you subscribe to...
| 54 | hellcat Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:53:40am |
The tally so far
1 844 11.86%
2 107 1.50%
3 127 1.78%
4 484 6.80%
5 1849 25.97%
6 3708 52.09%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 7119
| 56 |
Austin from Boston Fri, Mar 5, 2004 8:56:19am |
My vote made it
911 for option 1 gave me a chill
I knwo someone had to have it but still
Austin
btw here is one heartfelt apology from mass for John Kerry
| 57 |
Clutch Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:00:26am |
Wow, it was a little over 500 when I checked and now it is over 900! Way to go, minions!
(crapweasels, no '-' between 'crap' and 'weasles', crapweasels, crapweasels, crapweasels, dhimmicraps, err, crapweasels...)
| 58 |
lawhawk Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:00:38am |
Dang,
And here I thought ballot stuffing was the purview of the Chicago democrats, who voted early, often, and dead.
/irony
| 59 |
levi from queens Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:01:57am |
To Austin from Boston
Back in 72 when I was an LLL, the VFW put up a billboard on I-95 outside of Providence at the border with MA saying--You are now leaving the United States. Some friends and I took up a collection to fund a billboard on the MA side of the border saying: Welcome to Sweden--Take off your clothes and stay awhile!
| 60 |
zulubaby Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:03:20am |
Help Drive the German Left Crazy
Now tell me the world hasn't gone insane. Everything is upside down.
| 61 | GW (copying the above Mr. Bigglesworth) Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:04:31am |
Sir yessir!! I will continue with the mission you assigned me sir. repeating continueously sir!!!
We got the Miserable entry down to 50%.
| 62 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:05:24am |
C:/Documents and Settings/username/Local Settings/Temporary Internet Files
I had to change the direction of the slashes to show this, reverse the slashes first...
The cookie should reside here in this directory, It should be near the top of the listing. Look for "der spiegle"
Vote - Delete - Vote - Delete
Don't dare delete the mighty Cookie from our lizard King.
I expect no less than One hundred from each lizardzoid...now get down and give me a hundred!!!
| 63 |
Anonymous Al Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:08:29am |
The following is off-topic,
but I May As Well Post This Here...
---
As an AOL user, I can only lurk at LGF from home.
However, I occasionally post from other computers, especially from the Louisville public library -- as I am now doing...
The Rachel Corrie Mural discussion was caught by this library's net-nanny.
I am not computer HTML literate, so I will simply try to reproduce as best I can what I got...
The original leat post by Charles was allowed, as well as the first 26 reader comments.
Then came this:
___
Symantec Corporation's logo
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯&m acr;¯¯¯¯¯¯¯&mac r;¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Access Denied
The requested document [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...] will not be shown.
Reason: DDR score = 52.
This page will not be displayed because it contains prohibited words or it has exceeded its tolerance of questionable words.
Copyright © (1996-2003) Symantec Corporation
All Rights Reserved. Legal Notice "
| 64 |
sharona Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:12:38am |
1089 as of my vote.
In honor of my home town's glorious electoral traditions, I hereby designate my fellow lizardoids as honorary Chicagoans!
*** all bow before the statue of Hinky Dink Kenna, who coined the phrase we all know and love! ***
| 65 |
RIP Ford Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:13:43am |
1 1190 15.72%
2 202 2.67%
3 127 1.68%
4 485 6.41%
5 1852 24.47%
6 3713 49.06%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 7569
| 66 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:14:01am |
Additional instructions...
When you go back into your Tempory Internet Files folder.
Make sure you 'Refresh' in order to see the "derspiegle" cookie again (so you can delete that bad boy)
The easiest way to do it is to hit 'F5'
or right click in the file area and choose 'Refresh'
| 67 | Inside the Whale Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:15:13am |
voted--and often. "miserable" down to 49%. This could easily turn into an Ocktoberfest!
| 68 |
Joel Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:20:10am |
Voted for number 1. The Germans really get my blood boiling.
| 69 |
WriterMom Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:21:30am |
How do you say Dubya Akbar in German?
My vote is cast.
| 70 |
Spiny Norman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:22:11am |
Voted. "Miserable" down to 48.47%. "Great" is at 16.73%. Unfortunately "5" is 24.17%.
Trash the lines, people.
| 71 |
Dar ul Harb Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:22:51am |
#67,
Now there's an idea!
This thread is now the Friday night drinking thread!
| 72 | TimF Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:25:10am |
Nice work John.
Vote early, vote often ...
Vote #5, down to 48.1% miserable.
| 73 |
RIP Ford Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:26:08am |
1 1369 17.66%
2 203 2.62%
3 129 1.66%
4 485 6.26%
5 1853 23.90%
6 3714 47.90%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 7753
I'm not having to delete the cookies any longer... they are not being placed onto my computer for some reason.
| 74 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:26:19am |
...Keep going Lizardzoids, Beer and Steak on the Objective!!! (and assorted insects)
| 75 |
Renna Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:26:42am |
Drinking game rules -
#1 everytime "miserable" goes down a percentage point, drink.
| 76 |
GW Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:26:59am |
Using NT, I think I'm good to go just closing the window then reopening from the link Charles gave.
| 78 |
Innismir Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:28:21am |
Well, I stuffed the ballot box big time. I think that I'll bang out a perl script on the train home to vote every 10-30 seconds. I'll post a link here it here if anyone wants it.
| 79 |
Renna Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:28:36am |
Although I'm starting to feel other lizards aren't carrying their weight. There are almost 1000 people on line. If everyone was voting every 5-10 seconds...well...
| 80 |
GW Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:29:09am |
RIP I'm seeing an increase everytime but then again, us lizards are pounding it pretty good.
| 81 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:30:07am |
#73 RIP Ford
I'm not having to delete the cookies any longer... they are not being placed onto my computer for some reason.
I wonder if they are using that nefarious pratice of logging then denying your IP address?
| 82 |
WriterMom Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:31:11am |
Back for another round of voting and I need a drink-Purim and Shabbat preparations are exhausting...
| 83 |
RIP Ford Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:32:35am |
#81 John Gibbon
#80 GW
I'm new to the ballot stuffing game, so I'm not very sure how the system works. :P
| 84 |
papijoe Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:33:02am |
#5 grayp
I don't want to start another slap-fight between US and Canadian posters, but...
Can we just invade your country before someone else does (like Greenland)?
At least you won't have to deal with Paul Celucci anymore.
| 85 |
Geepers Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:33:26am |
| 87 |
GW Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:34:57am |
I don't think they're blocking IP's. I just showed a coworker the page and he voted also. The site would see the same IP, proxy address, for both of us.
| 89 |
CheezNCrackers Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:35:12am |
us lizards are pounding it pretty good.
Excuse me?
| 90 |
WriterMom Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:35:16am |
I just did 6 votes. It looks like it takes about 7-8 votes to move the "1' up a percentage point.
L'chaim everyone!
| 91 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:36:02am |
#76 GW,
Are you getting Red Bold letters above the tally box? If so your vote did not count...
| 92 |
RIP Ford Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:36:50am |
#88 james
Thanks for sharing that with us, don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
| 93 |
Kylaer Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:37:27am |
We just hit 20% and skyrocketing. I've voted 50 times at least. Even better than clearing your cookies each time is to set your browser not to accept cookies from the Speigel site; then you don't get the cookies in the first place and can rock the vote hardcore.
| 94 |
Horst Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:38:38am |
Ach, dis is so dissappointing. It was you die Amerikans who de-nazified us and teach us about DEMOCRACY--one man, one vote--and now you do thiss!!! Now you try to make dis German vote like Chikago--vote early, vote offten.
Ach!
| 95 |
Renna Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:40:03am |
Drinking game rule #2
When #1 gets to be higher than #5, you must kill your whole cup.
| 97 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:41:10am |
"We shall overcooome, We shall overcooome,...Somedaaay"
Broken nails on your claws is no excuse, keep clicking...
...And to those who are drinking, make sure you have a designated clicker! Impaired judgement may cost you the difference between an Einze or a Funmf.
| 99 |
Ford Prefect Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:41:14am |
1 1703 21.00%
2 209 2.58%
3 131 1.62%
4 485 5.98%
5 1856 22.89%
6 3724 45.93%
Woo hoo, look at how #1 is going up.
| 101 |
GW Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:42:46am |
#91 john g. Yea, I'm seeing the red bold. When i look in my cookies folder, I do not see the cookie either. I deleted it after voting the first time so I've got only two votes in now.
| 102 | Inside the Whale Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:42:51am |
I'm trying to vote so fast that the ice is melting. Help!
Apologize if this has been posted, but after you're totally smashed (you have to be to read it), and your index finger calloused, this will prove that the Germans still have something to learn from the French. (Warning: it's long)
| 103 |
Kylaer Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:45:10am |
#98 Levi:
In Internet Explorer 6 (Sorry, don't know for other versions/browsers):
Tools, Internet Options, "Privacy" tab. Go down to the bottom where it says "Web sites" and click the "Edit" button. Type in "www1.spiegel.de" and click "Block." You will now no longer accept the site's cookies.
Also great for blocking annoying advertisers that put trackers on your machine.
| 104 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:45:25am |
Passing rating 5 on the left...On zee Autobahn even...
| 107 |
andrew Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:46:20am |
#93 Kylaer
It won't let you do that for long. Stopped me after maybe 5 votes.
| 108 |
Kylaer Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:47:05am |
#104 John Gibbon:
On the left? We're passing it on the right!
| 109 |
Jeff Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:47:12am |
Just wrote a little app that votes, clears cache, wait a millisecond, do it again ad infinum :-)
Brilliant german engineering on that site
| 110 |
sharona Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:47:14am |
#75 renna:
Drinking game rules - #1 everytime "miserable" goes down a percentage point, drink.
Whoa! If I do that, you're going to have one less lizardoid hangin' round these parts. Can this lilly-livered girl take a sip, instead?
| 111 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:47:38am |
#101 GW
Okay good, you're with the program...I only had to recycle you once...you can still get your Tab...
Keep clicking
| 112 |
Ringo the Gringo Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:48:01am |
Well it looks as if Bush is quite popular in Germany...who would of thunk?
| 113 |
Judith Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:50:56am |
I got so much childish joy out of voting for Bush that I did it at least twenty time. I also now know how to clear my cookies. See what fun things one can learn hanging about here?
| 114 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:51:16am |
Lizardzoids, we are halfway there...give yourself a claw on the back...munch an insect...and get clicking!
| 115 |
RIP Ford Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:53:21am |
1 2134 24.96%
2 210 2.46%
3 131 1.53%
4 486 5.68%
5 1858 21.73%
6 3731 43.64%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 8550
| 116 |
papijoe Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:53:36am |
Cheese it, fellas, I think the Gerries are on to us!
Sie brauchen einen Cookie, um abstimmen zu können, aber es konnte keiner gesetzt werden. Bitte aktivieren Sie Cookies in Ihren Browsereinstellungen.
| 117 |
Renna Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:53:45am |
110 sharona
Whoa! If I do that, you're going to have one less lizardoid hangin' round these parts. Can this lilly-livered girl take a sip, instead?
It's worse than you think. I'm a "chickenhawk" rulemaker because I don't even drink.
| 118 |
levi from queens Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:54:54am |
Sie brauchen einen Cookie, um abstimmen zu können, aber es konnte keiner gesetzt werden. Bitte aktivieren Sie Cookies in Ihren Browsereinstellungen
in big letters. I think this says I have to go back to clearing cookies manually instead of following the eadvice of kylaer
| 119 |
RIP Ford Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:55:03am |
Sie brauchen einen Cookie, um abstimmen zu können, aber es konnte keiner gesetzt werden. Bitte aktivieren Sie Cookies in Ihren Browsereinstellungen
They need a Cookie, in order to be able to co-ordinate, but it could not be set. Please you activate Cookies in your Browsereinstellungen.
| 121 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:57:29am |
#116 Papijoe
Cheese it, fellas, I think the Gerries are on to us!
I'll take no guff, or you're on KP duty, follow zee cookie delete instructions posted by me above and keep clicking!
| 122 |
Barking Pumpkin Fri, Mar 5, 2004 9:58:23am |
And you can vote as many times as you want!
| 123 |
Renna Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:00:08am |
I was tutoring middle school kids in math and computers. I remember teaching a young gal to clear her cookie so that she could vote again and again for Leonardo DiCaprio as the "coolest dude ever" or something. Her eyes lit up and I knew what it was...to be a teacher. (sniff sniff)
| 124 |
papijoe Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:00:13am |
#120 grayp
I love Canada.
I just don't want to see her go the way of Europe
:-0
| 125 |
Athos Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:03:52am |
#124 papijoe
I just don't want to see her go the way of Europe
I'm afraid it might be too late. La Nouvelle France has slipped way down into that chasm.
| 126 |
Athos Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:04:35am |
OT - Martha Stewart found guilty on all 4 counts.
| 127 |
levi from queens Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:05:29am |
Wow--I'm getting 53 cookkies per vote now!
| 128 |
papijoe Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:06:35am |
#121 John Gibbon
OK Sarge!
I think I got another one!
| 129 |
Renna Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:07:01am |
#126 Athos 3/5/2004 12:04PM PST
OT - Martha Stewart found guilty on all 4 counts.
NOOOooo! How will I know how to decorate for Easter now???
| 130 | abu-Hoo-Hoo Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:07:48am |
ya - dis poll may have needed a littlzo halp. zooo, we do vat ve can. ;)
| 131 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:09:47am |
we are less than 1000 votes away from passing SEX (6)
"On to Berlin!"
| 132 |
QueenEsther Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:11:09am |
The other night, the actress Julia Stiles was on Letterman talking about a weird experience she had recently while shooting a movie in Berlin. She said the Germans had a penchant for co-ed naked saunas, which seemed perfectly natural to them, and utterly strange to her. Apparently, while walking over to the sauna, some wrinkly old naked woman asked Julia something, to which she replied "nein sprechen zi deutsch" (or however you say "I don't speak German" in German), to which to the butt naked old broad retorted in a mocking, sarcastic and hysterical manner, "nein sprechen zi deutsch! nein sprechen zi deutsch!"
Stiles was telling Letterman she couldn't believe how weird and rude people were to her there, and caught herself, adding, "oh, no, now a bunch of Germans are going to hate me!" Letterman responded without missing a beat, "You wouldn't be the first."
Heh heh. Nice job, Dave! And, Julia too.
| 133 |
RIP Ford Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:11:32am |
Martha Stewart found guilty on all 4 counts.
I'm sure she will have a cheerful and festively decorated cell.
| 136 |
Athos Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:14:28am |
#133 RIP Ford
I'm sure she will have a cheerful and festively decorated cell.
It's a good thing.
So, what does match with prison jumpsuit orange? Or 101 ways to improve creamed chipped beef?
| 137 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:16:20am |
The four counts (heh, heh)
- cheap labor
- gastly colors
- cheap products
- sold at Kmart
"...working on a chain gang"
| 138 |
Tasty Beverage Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:17:15am |
1 3033 31.98%
2 225 2.37%
3 132 1.39%
4 486 5.12%
5 1862 19.64%
6 3745 39.49%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 9483
| 139 |
papijoe Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:17:34am |
That cookie is proving to be pretty damn elusive. Anyone figure out the actual file name?
| 140 |
Spiny Norman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:18:21am |
Oh how fun!
1: 2981 - 31.61%
6: 3745 - 39.71%
Hmm, are any of you voting more than once?
;^)
| 141 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:18:39am |
Okay, I just did ten votes for martha, since she might lose her voting privilages. She voted "Einze" for Bush of course...
| 142 |
Renna Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:18:59am |
So, what does match with prison jumpsuit orange?
Come to a Tennessee football game. You'll see 107,000 different ways to wear orange. You can vote for the new UT orange tartan here. I like the muted one.
| 144 |
Athos Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:19:28am |
#135 Andrew
Conspiracy - She willfully and knowingly worked with Bacanovic to obstruct justice and make false statements.
False Statements - She lied when she told the SEC, FBI, and Federal Prosecutors she had prearranged to sell the stock when it dropped below $60 - 2 counts.
Obstruction of Justice
(Getting this from FNC feed...)
She can get up to 5 years in prison for each count, plus $250K fine per count.
| 145 |
Ms. Andi Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:20:04am |
If she goes to prison, she'll hate the thread count of the bed sheets.
| 146 |
scaramouche Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:20:11am |
#125 Athos
Even down here in the chasm die Gedunken sind frei.
| 148 |
andrew Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:20:45am |
#144 Athos
Thanks. I like false statements - as if they won't lie to you.
| 150 |
Grandma Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:21:13am |
After 10 votes for #1, I'm now stuffing the ballot box with #2 votes, just to keep the pollsters thinking it is still honest. On a scale of 1 to 6, "2" can't be too bad.
| 152 |
Spiny Norman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:22:31am |
Wow!
1 3169 - 32.92%
2 229 - 2.38%
3 133 - 1.38%
4 486 - 5.05%
5 1862 - 19.34%
6 3748 - 38.93%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 9627
How long before they invalidate this poll? Anyone?
| 153 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:23:56am |
#139 Papijoe
That cookie is proving to be pretty damn elusive. Anyone figure out the actual file name?
In the directory, click and sort on the 'last modified' column heading, so that they are in descending order (most recent on top). It should be in the top 5.
It should be a text file and like 'Cookie:username@spiegle.de/'
Go to town!
| 154 |
papijoe Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:24:19am |
#145 Ms. Andi
If she goes to prison, she'll hate the thread count of the bed sheets.
Funniest line of an already funny thread
| 155 |
Jeff Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:24:43am |
Its Friday afternoon and this ballet stuffing sure beats working!!!
| 157 |
RIP Ford Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:25:49am |
#152 Spiny Norman
How long before they invalidate this poll? Anyone?
As soon as they see the results and don't like them.
| 158 |
Geepers Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:26:00am |
OK, we need some No. 2 and No. 3 votes, or it gonna looked, ya know, ... rigged. ;-)
| 159 |
Renna Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:26:42am |
I predict #1 will take the lead in 6 and 1/2 minutes.
| 160 |
papijoe Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:26:45am |
Got it Sarge, I thought the "Undo" button was "Refresh"
Gooolly!
| 162 |
Spiny Norman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:26:47am |
#150 grandma
I'm now stuffing the ballot box with #2 votes, just to keep the pollsters thinking it is still honest.
Excellent idea. OK everyone, time to bang away at #2!
| 163 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:28:18am |
#150 Grandma 3/5/2004 12:21PM PST
After 10 votes for #1, I'm now stuffing the ballot box with #2 votes, just to keep the pollsters thinking it is still honest. On a scale of 1 to 6, "2" can't be too bad.
Did I authorize that!!!
...but hey! good idea continue at a rate of 10/1
| 164 |
Mike7411 Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:28:20am |
#152 Spiny Norman
"How long before they invalidate this poll? Anyone?"
I don't care when they invalidate it... I just want everyone in Germany who votes to freak when they see others think Bush is doing good... and the freaks at der frickin spie-sighiel to see all the peps in the USA are watchin em and can do something...
Mike7411
| 165 |
Ms. Andi Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:28:38am |
#154 papijoe
Thanks :)
Actually, it was Martha that got me hooked on 350+ thread count. I can't go back!
| 166 |
Spiny Norman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:29:00am |
#156 Scott B
Oh nooo! The freepers will crash the servers and then they'll know for certain something's up!
| 167 |
scaramouche Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:29:22am |
#155 Jeff
Its Friday afternoon and this ballet stuffing sure beats working!!!
Ballet stuffing: Fat chick in a tutu.
| 168 |
observer Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:29:39am |
IF MARTHA MUST ROT, WHY IS KEN LAY FREE TO TROT?
| 169 |
BIG Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:30:42am |
1 3522 35.25%
2 234 2.34%
3 134 1.34%
4 487 4.87%
5 1863 18.64%
6 3752 37.55%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 9992
| 170 |
RIP Ford Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:32:00am |
#167 scaramouche
You are evil, I just spit my Whataburger all over my screen.
| 172 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:33:20am |
Less than 500 km (votes) to Berlin!
I was goin' to post the Lyrics to "Working in a Coal mine" by Devo, but can't get by the paragraphing!
| 173 |
RIP Ford Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:34:29am |
1 3657 36.10%
2 237 2.34%
3 134 1.32%
4 487 4.81%
5 1863 18.39%
6 3753 37.04%
| 177 |
levi from queens Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:36:13am |
Only 45 votes from ahead--should we shoot for 5,000, 10,000? I vote for 10,000.
| 178 |
TobaccoTom Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:36:45am |
1 3756 36.70%
2 240 2.34%
3 134 1.31%
4 487 4.76%
5 1864 18.21%
6 3754 36.68%
Whooo hooo!!!
| 180 |
Innismir Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:36:49am |
Huzzah!
1 3759 36.72%
2 240 2.34%
3 134 1.31%
4 487 4.76%
5 1864 18.21%
6 3754 36.67%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 10238
| 181 |
papijoe Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:37:04am |
3757 36.70%
2 240 2.34%
3 134 1.31%
4 487 4.76%
5 1864 18.21%
6 3754 36.67%
| 182 |
jeff Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:37:12am |
We just pulled ahead! Never underestimate the power of the Lizoids!
| 186 |
BIG Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:37:42am |
1 3782 36.86%
2 240 2.34%
3 134 1.31%
4 487 4.75%
5 1864 18.17%
6 3754 36.59%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 10261
| 187 |
Mr Kufr Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:37:42am |
Almost tied! Sehr Gut mein Lizardoid brothers und sisters
| 190 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:38:28am |
Lizards we are on the Objective!
...But don't stop now! The Germans will wake up in about 8 hours and have to start voting again!
| 191 | niall (Abu Ala Peanut Butter Sandwich) Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:39:23am |
It's #1 with over 37% now :-)
| 192 |
Innismir Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:39:43am |
#177 levi from queens:
I think we should do 10000 for #1 and 5000 for #2 Just to make it look 'realistic' :)
| 193 |
Necklace of shoes Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:40:19am |
Well done mates!
This should boil their strudel.
| 194 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:40:20am |
Charles,
How long did that take? From start of thread to now?
| 195 |
BIG Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:42:52am |
#194 John Gibbon
A little over 2 hours and 20 minutes.
| 197 |
Barbara Skolaut Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:45:48am |
Did my bit!
Maybe Americans should run a poll about how well Schroeder has done his job. (Or maybe not - I'm sure the Germans would be insulted when most Americans voted for "who gives a rat's ass?".)
| 198 |
Spiny Norman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:45:48am |
I just can't imagine how this could've happened:
1 3916 - 37.62%
2 254 - 2.44%
3 134 - 1.29%
4 487 - 4.68%
5 1864 - 17.91%
6 3754 - 36.06%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 10409
From less than 400 #1 to almost 4,000 in 2 hours! Good work, Minions.
| 199 |
Athos Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:45:58am |
#174 - Absolutely. Best way to keep it fair - following the example of Mayor Daley, Rep. Gephardt, Senator LB Johnson, Al Gore, etc.
| 200 |
levi from queens Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:47:02am |
Sie haben für dieses Vote bereits abgestimmt!
I think this means I'm rejected for voting twice (or 50) times. I had cleared my cookies. Do they have some other way to tell?
| 201 |
Judith Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:47:31am |
Congrats lizardoids! Keep going, the bigger the margin Bush gets the better.
| 202 | Ty Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:47:35am |
Voted proudly for #1 and used the refresh icon to watch the vote evolve over ~1 min - 93 votes for #1 and 2 votes for #6.
Shows the reach of LGF.
| 204 |
RIP Ford Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:50:43am |
I'm no longer able to find the cookie in the temp internet file. I'm still not allowed to vote, though. Any thoughts?
| 205 | Inside the Whale Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:51:02am |
#129 Renna
NOOOooo! How will I know how to decorate for Easter now???
Don't forget: Christopher Lowell's still available. Can't wait for his bridal (groom's?) outfit.
Dumb and Dumber: how come I can't vote again after cookie's been removed?
| 206 | Kon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:52:13am |
Dont forget! We have to match the TOTAL number of bad votes, which at this point is still WAY over 50%. We have to make sure we get over 50% in our category!
| 207 |
Spiny Norman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:53:10am |
Holy Mackerel! Votes are pilingupfasterthanIcanrefresh!
| 208 |
Necklace of shoes Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:53:30am |
#199 Athos
Relax Amigo #174 was me. Colonel Klink too. Consider it a USO show for the battling minions.
Gotta go vote some more!
| 209 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:53:45am |
#204 RIP Ford
Check my previous posts; sort on last modified
I've had no problems and am still voting...
| 210 |
levi from queens Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:56:10am |
To RIP Ford-- I had the same thing happen. Make sure you close the spieggle window before chasing cookies. They are now scattering the times on them. Scroll down a little further into the temporary internet files window, and root out all of those little bedbugs. Then you can vote again.
| 211 |
aFriend Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:56:25am |
This is great! I feel so dirty - like a Democrat in Florida!
BTW, I have my cookies folder open (from within IE), and now I notice that 2 files show up when I vote (plus another if I click on the "back" button). I just delete those three, and vote again.
Silly chads.
| 212 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:57:24am |
#205 Whale
Make sure you are refreshing the directory to make it appear again..see my previous posts...
"On to Braunsweig"
| 213 |
Athos Fri, Mar 5, 2004 10:59:20am |
#208
Curses, caught by another faux troll.
#211
I feel so dirty - like a Democrat in Florida!
ROFL
| 214 |
Spiny Norman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:00:10am |
Woohoo!
1 4366 - 40.00%
Payback for the EUnuchs flooding Charles' Biggest Threat To Peace poll.
| 215 |
Renna Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:02:33am |
I say let's have lofty goals.
80% for #1
15% for #2
No body out there has a life, now do you?
| 216 |
Mr Kufr Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:03:44am |
#211
I know what you mean, I'm feeling a little schmutzlich myself, and I like it.
| 218 |
RIP Ford Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:05:33am |
#209 John Gibbon
#210 levi from queens
Thanks for the info. {giggling idiotically}
| 219 | Inside the Whale Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:06:10am |
#212 J. Gibbon
Thanks. In my present condition I don't think I could pour piss out of a boot with the directions on the heel.
And speaking of polls, check this out: What Martha's punishment should be
| 223 |
Grandma Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:09:23am |
Still at it voting to bump up the #2 bucket. Gotta keep the poll looking legit. Thanks for the Friday Follies, Charles. As many of my votes go into the poll, another sip of White Infidel goes into me. Sure beats working on my income tax return!
| 224 |
BIG Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:11:35am |
1 4708 41.56%
2 370 3.27%
3 134 1.18%
4 487 4.30%
5 1864 16.45%
6 3766 33.24%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 11329
| 225 |
papijoe Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:11:58am |
#220 John Gibbon
From my experience it's usually the French with The Oder
| 227 |
Jeff R Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:14:30am |
for any coders with a copy of vb, here is the code that will vote for this site non stop until you kill the program
Option ExplicitPrivate Declare Function FindFirstUrlCacheGroup Lib "wininet.dll" ( _
ByVal dwFlags As Long, _
ByVal dwFilter As Long, _
ByRef lpSearchCondition As Long, _
ByVal dwSearchCondition As Long, _
ByRef lpGroupId As Date, _
ByRef lpReserved As Long) As LongPrivate Declare Function FindNextUrlCacheGroup Lib "wininet.dll" ( _
ByVal hFind As Long, _
ByRef lpGroupId As Date, _
ByRef lpReserved As Long) As Long
Private Declare Function DeleteUrlCacheGroup Lib "wininet.dll" ( _
ByVal sGroupID As Date, _
ByVal dwFlags As Long, _
ByRef lpReserved As Long) As Long
Private Declare Function FindFirstUrlCacheEntry Lib "wininet.dll" Alias "FindFirstUrlCacheEntryA" ( _
ByVal lpszUrlSearchPattern As String, _
ByRef lpFirstCacheEntryInfo As INTERNET_CACHE_ENTRY_INFO, _
ByRef lpdwFirstCacheEntryInfoBufferSize As Long) As Long
Private Type INTERNET_CACHE_ENTRY_INFO
dwStructSize As Long
szRestOfData(1024) As Long
End TypePrivate Declare Function DeleteUrlCacheEntry Lib "wininet.dll" Alias "DeleteUrlCacheEntryA" ( _
ByVal lpszUrlName As Long) As LongPrivate Declare Function FindNextUrlCacheEntry Lib "wininet.dll" Alias "FindNextUrlCacheEntryA" ( _
ByVal hEnumHandle As Long, _
ByRef lpNextCacheEntryInfo As INTERNET_CACHE_ENTRY_INFO, _
ByRef lpdwNextCacheEntryInfoBufferSize As Long) As LongPrivate Const CACHGROUP_SEARCH_ALL = &H0
Private Const ERROR_NO_MORE_FILES = 18
Private Const ERROR_NO_MORE_ITEMS = 259
Private Const CACHEGROUP_FLAG_FLUSHURL_ONDELETE = &H2
Private Const BUFFERSIZE = 2048Private Declare Sub Sleep Lib "kernel32" (ByVal dwMilliseconds As Long)
Private Sub Command1_Click()
Call ClearCache
WebBrowser1.Navigate2 "[Link: www1.spiegel.de...]
End SubPrivate Sub ClearCache()
Dim sGroupID As Date
Dim hGroup As Long
Dim hFile As Long
Dim sEntryInfo As INTERNET_CACHE_ENTRY_INFO
Dim iSize As Long
On Error Resume Next
' Delete the groups
hGroup = FindFirstUrlCacheGroup(0, 0, 0, 0, sGroupID, 0)
' To avoid error using it with IE4 as FindFirstUrlCacheGroup is not implemented
If Err.Number 453 Then
If (hGroup = 0) And (Err.LastDllError 2) Then
MsgBox "An error occurred enumerating the cache groups" & Err.LastDllError
Exit Sub
End If
Else
Err.Clear
End If
If (hGroup 0) Then
'we succeeded in finding the first cache group.. enumerate and
'delete
Do
If (0 = DeleteUrlCacheGroup(sGroupID, CACHEGROUP_FLAG_FLUSHURL_ONDELETE, 0)) Then
' To avoid error using it with IE4 as FindFirstUrlCacheGroup is not implemented
If Err.Number 453 Then
MsgBox "Error deleting cache group " & Err.LastDllError
Exit Sub
Else
Err.Clear
End If
End If
iSize = BUFFERSIZE
If (0 = FindNextUrlCacheGroup(hGroup, sGroupID, iSize)) And (Err.LastDllError 2) Then
MsgBox "Error finding next url cache group! - " & Err.LastDllError
End If
Loop Until Err.LastDllError = 2
End If
' Delete the files
sEntryInfo.dwStructSize = 80
iSize = BUFFERSIZE
hFile = FindFirstUrlCacheEntry(0, sEntryInfo, iSize)
If (hFile = 0) Then
If (Err.LastDllError = ERROR_NO_MORE_ITEMS) Then
GoTo done
End If
MsgBox "ERROR: FindFirstUrlCacheEntry - " & Err.LastDllError
Exit Sub
End If
Do
If (0 = DeleteUrlCacheEntry(sEntryInfo.szRestOfData(0))) _
And (Err.LastDllError 2) Then
Err.Clear
End If
iSize = BUFFERSIZE
If (0 = FindNextUrlCacheEntry(hFile, sEntryInfo, iSize)) And (Err.LastDllError ERROR_NO_MORE_ITEMS) Then
MsgBox "Error: Unable to find the next cache entry - " & Err.LastDllError
Exit Sub
End If
Loop Until Err.LastDllError = ERROR_NO_MORE_ITEMS
done:
Debug.Print "cache cleared"
'Command1.Enabled = True
End Sub
Private Sub Form_Resize()
WebBrowser1.Height = Form1.Height - WebBrowser1.Top - Me.ScaleY(5, vbPixels, vbTwips)
WebBrowser1.Width = Form1.Width - WebBrowser1.Left - Me.ScaleX(5, vbPixels, vbTwips)
End SubPrivate Sub WebBrowser1_DocumentComplete(ByVal pDisp As Object, URL As Variant)
'Debug.Print "here"
'Call Sleep(1)
Call Command1_Click
End Sub
| 228 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:15:07am |
#225 papijoe,
From my experience it's usually the French with The Oder
You obviously did not live in the same German Farm town I did!!!
...right about now they'd be spreading that live manure around!
| 229 |
levi from queens Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:16:11am |
To Jeff R--Wow!! Did you just make all that stuff up?
| 230 |
Jeff R Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:16:25am |
Just changed the above code to vote for option 2, how many do we want?
| 231 | Korora: Oh look! A northern cardinal! Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:16:59am |
1 4750 41.68%
2 394 3.46%
3 134 1.18%
4 487 4.27%
5 1864 16.36%
6 3768 33.06%
| 232 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:18:08am |
#227 Jeff R
Our secret weapon! Unleash the Hounds!!!
#221 Geepers,
Great work song!!
| 233 |
levi from queens Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:19:51am |
Jeff R--If we want 80% on 1 and 10% on 2, then we need about 7,000 on 2 and 56,000 on 1
| 234 |
Jeff R Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:21:18am |
to levi from queens = yep wrote it about 2 hours ago. Its been running ever since
| 235 |
Renna Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:22:31am |
I can see the AP/Reuters stories tomorrow.
See America? It's just mean ol' hateful you that won't play nice with Europe. Why, Germany luvs Dubya. At an astounding rate, too.
| 236 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:23:40am |
What would be real interesting is to see what they do with the results?
I hope we keep our vigilant lizard eyes on this survey in the days to come...
Will we fool them? or will they throw it out?
| 237 |
Renna Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:24:04am |
How do we run it on our computers? Or if I don't know what "vb" is, then I probably can't do it anyway?
| 238 |
Rabban Sauma Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:24:54am |
Arrrgh...
Right index finger going numb...
Must...
Delete...
cookies...
one
more
time...
gak!
| 239 |
papijoe Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:25:40am |
#232 John Gibbon
Sarge, can I stop clicking now. All's I got is about an inch and a half of index finger left...
| 240 |
BIG Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:26:06am |
I went and looked at some of their other polls. I think we will set their record for the most votes cast in a poll. Who would have thunk that GWB was so popular over there?
| 242 | ploome Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:26:50am |
will this control cookies?
[Link: www.javacoolsoftware.com...]
| 244 |
sgt tom Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:27:31am |
#239
Soldiers, you've done a great job, accomplished the mission and brought everyone back safely!
You may stand down.
Smoke 'em if ya got 'em.
Drink 'em if they're cold.
(And I got a vote or two in, too!)
| 246 |
Frank IBC Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:30:16am |
My goal is to vote at least as many times as the total number of times Kerry actually voted while in Congress.
| 249 |
Rabban Sauma Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:33:34am |
1 5000 41.58%
2 757 6.30%
3 137 1.14%
4 487 4.05%
5 1866 15.52%
6 3778 31.42%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 12025
5000 is mine!!!
| 250 |
Lively Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:33:50am |
LOL @ this thread. I voted. Do they know what website we're all coming from...you know the way Charles knows where his traffice comes from?
| 254 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:40:48am |
Anybody notice any movement on the enemy side of the lines? did 5 or 6 go up recently?
| 256 | dan rudy Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:41:42am |
Jeff R
You rock man!
But enough of the number 2's...lets give unwavering support...
| 258 |
David Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:45:53am |
Charles: So many thanks for mentioning the SPIEGEL poll in a posting! This is probably the greatest satisfaction since I'm running my blog.
AND ALL YOU GUYS OUT THERE: THANK YOU FOR VOTING!
The left-wing nuts at SPIEGEL will commit mass suicide...
David Kaspar
| 259 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:46:09am |
Jeff R,
What is the rate of vote on that thingie you developed?
| 260 | James R Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:47:09am |
Well this is fun! I started voting when #1 was at less than 3000. It's been well wasted time :)
1 5236 41.12%
2 1226 9.63%
3 140 1.10%
4 487 3.82%
5 1866 14.65%
6 3780 29.68%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 12735
| 261 |
papijoe Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:47:41am |
#254 John Gibbon
# 5 hasn't moved in at least half an hour, Sarge!
| 262 |
Spiny Norman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:48:39am |
#27 Mark
BEHOLD THE AWESOME POWER OF THE LIZARD KING!! LOOK UPON HIS WORKS, YE MORONS, AND TREMBLE
No effing kidding! Still LMAO!
| 263 |
papijoe Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:50:18am |
#258 David
Jus' doin' our duty, sir!
Thanks for the G-2!
| 264 |
Spiny Norman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:51:49am |
#54 hellcat 10:53AM PST
The tally so far
1 844 11.86%
2 107 1.50%
3 127 1.78%
4 484 6.80%
5 1849 25.97%
6 3708 52.09%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 7119
And Now:
1 5404 41.86%
2 1232 9.54%
3 140 1.08%
4 487 3.77%
5 1866 14.46%
6 3780 29.28%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 12909
Yeah Baby!
| 265 |
observer Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:52:17am |
#241, RAYRA
Well, it does say "with liberty and justice for all."
Let the cookies crumble (since we're in that game today) where they should. I have little sympathy for Martha, but from what I've read (in FORTUNE, WSJ...), what she did was crumbs compared to Mr. Enron. If he isn't touched, money talks and justice walks.
| 266 |
Flaming Sword Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:53:11am |
QUESTION: If the message I get is the following, does that mean it counted my vote or not?
"Sie haben für dieses Vote bereits abgestimmt!"
(I'm sure it took my FIRST one, but the later ones have me concerned)
| 267 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:53:20am |
#254 papijoe 3/5/2004 01:47PM PST
Great news, now get back out on that OP!
| 268 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:55:16am |
#266 Flaming Sword
Your vote was NOT counted...
Go back and read MY previous posts on how to clear the 'spiegle' cookie...
| 269 |
Rabban Sauma Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:55:42am |
Darn good thing there aren't any pop-ups on that site!
9 mouse-clicks to do one vote cycle is enough.
| 270 |
Spiny Norman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:55:45am |
observer,
Ken Lay's underlings are being indicted. Expect some or all to of them squeal. I assume that's what Justice is expecting.
| 271 |
Julesk Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:57:28am |
Flaming Sword: It means, "You've already voted on this issue."
| 272 |
David Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:57:48am |
Flamming # 266
"Sie haben für dieses Vote bereits abgestimmt!"
It means they recognize you as someone who has already voted.
Still, folks, keep voting...
| 273 |
papijoe Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:59:10am |
Are there any Dems here who can tell us how to get dead people to vote?
| 274 |
Flaming Sword Fri, Mar 5, 2004 11:59:24am |
John:
Thanks! I've gotten the hang of deleting the cookies now, so I'm sure my democratic opinion is now being heard loud and clear! *laughs*
| 275 |
Rabban Sauma Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:00:06pm |
1 5500 42.27%
2 1235 9.49%
3 141 1.08%
4 487 3.74%
5 1866 14.34%
6 3782 29.07%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 13011
500 #1 votes in about 23 minutes!
>20 votes for #1 per minute!
**claws clicking away madly on mouse continue**
| 276 | Kindergarten Cop Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:01:55pm |
Grow up yet! You think the manipulation isn't obvious when the votes change in such a short time and most ISP are from the U.S.?
By referrer logs they'll find out where the votes came from.
Expect a "U.S. right wing/zionist blog manipulates Spiegel votes" article.
Or they just silently kill all votes of the last hours (more likely).
Ok, it's fun anyway..lol
But you need German T-Online ISP to cloak the action properly (most Germans use that).
BTW, Schroeder would probably fare worse in that poll than Bush.
| 277 |
Boston Patriot Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:02:15pm |
Thanks for making my day! Hilarious...I'm laughing out loud right now. They're probably calling their IT guys to find out why there's a glitch in the poll algorithm
| 278 |
Bourgeois Reactionary Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:04:33pm |
Nice:
1 5552 42.46%
2 1244 9.51%
3 141 1.08%
4 487 3.72%
5 1866 14.27%
6 3785 28.95%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 13075
IIRC, the Feds have gotten the CFOs to roll at several of the big scandals. Ken Lay is going down, just like Ebbers (Worldcom), Scrushy (HealthSouth), Rigas (Adelphia), and Kozlowski (Tyco).
| 279 |
Rabban Sauma Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:05:02pm |
#276 Kindergarten Cop
Killjoy...
*click clickity click**click clickity click**click clickity click**click clickity click**click clickity click**click clickity click**click clickity click**click clickity click*
| 280 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:05:48pm |
#276 Kindergarten Cop
Grow up yet! You think the manipulation isn't obvious when the votes change in such a short time and most ISP are from the U.S.?
Hey, it is the "World Wide Web" you know?
And I know many German nationals in the US, esp Texas, Kalifornia, New Mexico...
Heh, heh
| 281 |
Frank IBC Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:08:09pm |
I've just made a lot of dead people in Chicago green with envy.
Expect a "U.S. right wing/zionist blog manipulates Spiegel votes" article
That wouldn't be such a bad thing, either.
You can run from the US rightwing/zionist conspiracy, but you can't hide.
| 282 | Wondermutt Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:08:45pm |
Next time their webmaster checks this poll his monocle is going to fall out.
| 283 | Kindergarten Cop Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:09:49pm |
I know, but the manipulation will be obvious for anyone. But you might get lucky for a while. They will probably not notice in the night.
I have a German ISP but no clue about VB..lol
| 285 | Ed from O - H - I - O Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:10:57pm |
Y'all gotta check the results of this poll now ! ! ! Looks like the German left thinks rather highly of President Bush.
| 286 |
Flaming Sword Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:12:04pm |
Just a word of warning--we're going to have to keep at this for a while, so you might want to order out for more beer and perhaps a pizza. The proof:
I checked a couple of minutes ago and the score was:
#1 5528
#6 3723
I checked just a second ago and the score was:
#1 5610 (82 new votes)
#6 3786 (63 new votes)
So, even though we're winning, SOMEBODY out there is at least OFFSETTING our progress abit.
Keep those votes coming, and knock off the #2 votes!
| 287 |
observer Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:13:55pm |
#276, Kindergarten Cop
Well if die Redakteure at DER SPIEGEL do discover this LGF gambit, we'll see if the Germans have discovered a sense of humor. "You Amerikaner, always viss ze laffs."
A couple of years ago at a conference in Germany a professor declared: "We had a sense of humor once. It was a Jewish thing." Went up in smoke or to America.
| 288 | Rabban Sauma (getting tired of re-entering name) Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:17:59pm |
1 5711 43.01%
2 1274 9.59%
3 142 1.07%
4 488 3.68%
5 1866 14.05%
6 3797 28.60%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 13278
#1 goes up another point... DRINK!!!
| 289 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:18:12pm |
#286 Flaming Sword 3/5/2004 02:12PM PST
Seems as if we will have to set up a watch. I got first!
| 290 |
Frank IBC Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:21:04pm |
#282 Wondermutt -
Delightful image - LOL!
We breached the security by feeding the webmaster loads of Apfelstrudel.
| 291 |
Jeff R Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:22:50pm |
#276 Kindergarden cop
We could be using an anonomizing proxy server in Germany ;-)
| 292 |
WriterMom Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:24:51pm |
#226 Rayra LOL!
This is just delicious...like fleichik mit kartuffle.
| 293 | Kindergarten Cop Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:27:24pm |
Obviously they have no IP-control (which is rather dumb).
Yes the proxy (or rather proxies could work). Shall I look for a list of open proxies?
| 294 | butthead Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:30:40pm |
LOL! I voted hours ago and thought it was hopeless. I bet those der Spiegel bush-haters are pulling a "Colonel Klink" right about now.
| 295 |
Ariel Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:33:30pm |
I voted, but only once.
observer #265,
Ken Lay is as good as convicted. Guess who Bush is going to have to sacrifice in order to show that he's not favoring his old boys? Just like they did with the mafia, they're going to get the little guys to rat out the big ones - the major difference is that the Enron mafia won't kill the people who turn against them, so it's going to happen faster. And I think they went one up the chain recently with Enron (to maybe the CFO?) so Ken Lay's number is going to come up soon.
| 296 |
Jeff R Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:34:08pm |
#293 Kindergarden
Thats exactly what I thought 'they are not storing the IP address of the voting computer'. They must not really care, or just figured they could guess the result anyway.
Quality german engineering ;)
| 298 | Kindergarten Cop Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:37:00pm |
This is a German anonymizing project you might want to check out.
[Link: anon.inf.tu-dresden.de...]
| 299 |
John Gibbon Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:37:28pm |
Come on 6000!
Jeff R,
How fast does your VB code crank out a vote?
| 300 |
Jeff R Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:41:08pm |
#299 John
I didn't really keep track, I think it was doing about 2 a second. I shut it off for right now, needed the network bandwith for something else.
| 302 |
observer Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:47:29pm |
#295, Ariel + #278, Bourgeois Reactionary
Hope you guys are right. On many days the Business Section of most dailies reads like a police blotter.
| 303 | Captain Kirk Fri, Mar 5, 2004 12:47:58pm |
#300 Jeff R:
"Give me warp drive in 3 minutes or we're all dead!"
| 306 |
GW Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:06:33pm |
UNBEFU**INGLIEVABLE!!!
I leave work and #1 is at about 28%. I get home, log in, and you guys have it up to...45%, over 6,200 votes at 6:04pm Eastern time.
OUTSTANDING!!!
| 307 | Carey (mwf) Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:06:56pm |
Yay!
I'm a lurking lizardoid. =D
As of my vote...
1. 6284 ~ 45.24%
2. 1290 ~ 9.29%
3. 149 ~ 1.07%
4. 489 ~ 3.52%
5. 1870 ~ 13.46%
6. 3809 ~ 27.42%
| 308 |
Jeff R Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:15:23pm |
#305
Its visual basic, from Micro$oft. Hate the product but it can come in handy.
| 309 |
levi from queens Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:19:22pm |
Careful you don't erase your lgf user name when you toss your cookies.
| 310 |
Poitiers-Lepanto Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:25:02pm |
Two votes in a day, keep the LLL away.
(I work on different computers).
We are going pretty good but we must insist.
| 311 |
Greg Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:25:46pm |
Is there anything on the website that shows a reaction, like forums? If so, can anyone translate?
| 312 |
sgt tom Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:28:50pm |
Got home, logged in and -- WOW!
Voted again... looks like my McAfee Privacy Service wants to block cookies from two different entities at that site.
As to irregular voting... they used to say (back home in the South) that elections were so exciting that the dead got up and voted.
And now Fox News is running a Bush Campaign Ad!
Way to go folks!
| 313 |
Andrew B. Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:30:33pm |
hahahahah this is funny...
The count is now at like 46% in favor of Bush...keep up the vote!
Andrew B.
| 314 |
Doug Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:31:48pm |
Sie haben für dieses Vote bereits abgestimmt!
Sieg Heil!
| 315 | Wisconsin Conservative - - no really! Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:36:55pm |
LOL! This is the most fun I've had in blogsville yet! Reminds me of the Milwaukee dems voting mantra - "Early and Often"
| 316 | Junior Lizard, First Class Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:37:06pm |
New poll at Netscape News, http://www.netscape.com/sidebar/news.adp:
"Has the war in Iraq made you more likely to vote to re-elect President Bush?"
Yes, he's my choice now: 15%
I would have voted for him anyway: 35%
I would never vote for Bush now: 50%
Let's get cracking, my fellow scaly ones! Hisss!
| 317 |
Andrew B. Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:39:48pm |
I can't believe how much time one of you guys has to change the stats like that, but keep it up
Andrew B.
| 319 |
Frank IBC Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:49:40pm |
I hope Diebold's security is better than Der Spiegel's.
| 320 |
Flaming Sword Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:51:05pm |
Wow! Over 47 percent of the German Left seems to think Bush has done a spledid job!
| 322 | Cranial Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:56:28pm |
Current:
# 1 Bush great job 47.11%
#6 the worst job 26.38%
with over 14000 votes cast.
Will this (campaign) make this poll as accurate as any showing Kerry as leading Bush?
I'm just saying...
| 323 | Johnny Rad Fri, Mar 5, 2004 1:59:33pm |
If you really want to know what it says, check out
[Link: babelfish.altavista.com...]
| 324 | mpc Fri, Mar 5, 2004 2:01:38pm |
What a riot?
Maybe this is how Schroeder won.
5 guys from the green party hitting the back key 1000000 times
| 325 |
Buckaroo Fri, Mar 5, 2004 2:06:33pm |
#295
Enron CEO Skilling has been indicted --
Skilling biggest "catch" for feds to date
CFO Fastow is singing after copping a plea, and this should be the key used to get to K. Lay --
| 326 |
Perplexed Fri, Mar 5, 2004 2:11:07pm |
Perhaps one of you can explain to me WHY you are doing this to the poor Germans (other than its fun).
This does not seem honorable to me or worthy of my high expectations of LGF.
(I'm typing this after I voted for Bush, but am having second thoughts)
| 328 |
Buckeye Abroad Fri, Mar 5, 2004 2:23:56pm |
Charles,
unfair by a landslide. I voted and than saw the outcome. Trust me, Spiegel will never print the online poll results... goes against the socialistic party doctrine.
| 329 |
RIP Ford Fri, Mar 5, 2004 2:25:24pm |
Perplexed,
I just want them to scratch their head for a little bit, I grin just thinking of their facial reactions to these results. :P
| 331 | the new kid Fri, Mar 5, 2004 2:53:01pm |
A poll at Israeli portal Walla:
Do you wish Bush a second term as president?
Yes - 69%
No - 31%
No need for "intervention" there.
| 332 |
okimutt Fri, Mar 5, 2004 2:53:19pm |
Okinawa precincts checking in Sat. am- 49.02%. CNN
reversing call now. Dems outraged!
| 333 |
Renna Fri, Mar 5, 2004 2:57:25pm |
How much to rent you guys for choosing the fourth tartan?
| 335 | Die Redaktion, DER SPIEGEL Fri, Mar 5, 2004 3:08:14pm |
You bushwacked us.
We are not amused. We are forgiving.
But please remember, the Bundesrepublik is not Florida.
| 336 | Kindergarten Cop Fri, Mar 5, 2004 3:16:46pm |
Which is exactly why so many Germans prefer to live in Florida :)
| 338 | the new kid Fri, Mar 5, 2004 3:28:22pm |
But please remember, the Bundesrepublik is not Florida.
Oh, I thought it was in the US, otherwise why would you a poll on Bush's perfoemance as president? (last time I checked he was president of the US).
| 339 |
Spiny Norman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 3:32:49pm |
1 7903 - 49.87%
6 3875 - 24.45%
ROTFLMAO!!!
| 340 |
Robert Fri, Mar 5, 2004 3:33:30pm |
GUYS! THAT'S ENOUGH ON THE GERMAN POLL. WE NEED PEOPLE TO WORK ON THIS AUSSIE ONE:
[Link: news.ninemsn.com.au...]
I haven't figured out how to manipulate it. Seems it tracks your IP address...
| 342 |
Flaming Sword Fri, Mar 5, 2004 3:37:19pm |
Woo-hoo! The German Left LOVES Bush! Check out these numbers:
1 7952 50.01%
2 1536 9.66%
3 169 1.06%
4 492 3.09%
5 1876 11.80%
6 3877 24.38%
| 343 | James R Fri, Mar 5, 2004 3:39:29pm |
#340
It adds two cookies. I deleted both of them and already voted five times.
| 344 |
Spiny Norman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 3:39:57pm |
Woohoo!
1 - 7961 - 50.03%
6 - 3879 - 24.37%
| 347 |
Flaming Sword Fri, Mar 5, 2004 3:46:04pm |
Okay, somebody should be smart enough to figure out a way to maximize the advantage of "clearing cookies" so that in one fell swoop we could cast votes in BOTH the German and Aussie poll.
| 348 | JerryC Fri, Mar 5, 2004 3:51:11pm |
1 8005 50.14%
2 1537 9.63%
3 170 1.06%
4 493 3.09%
5 1876 11.75%
6 3885 24.33%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 15966
heh heh
| 349 | really grumpy Fri, Mar 5, 2004 3:52:23pm |
Notice how it was SUCH as nice poll. Der Spiegel was merrily catching the pulse of the Reich, and suddenly...
I'm telling you, they are better than this!
/ sarkoff
I hope they at least credit us for corrupting their shitty little poll. Maybe we can get INTERNATIONAL condemnation of the Lizardoid Nation!
I love being hated, honestly I do. It makes me feel like nothing else I can describe...
Truth is the true sex serum.
| 351 |
Flaming Sword Fri, Mar 5, 2004 3:56:19pm |
I'm thinking that as popular as this poll seems to be with the German Left, Bush's approval number could climb to 60 percent or more before this is over!
*laughs*
| 352 | jpok Fri, Mar 5, 2004 3:57:24pm |
All right, 50!
Anyway, About 4% have voted in the middle two categories. Isn't that the truth of how people feel about Bush?
| 353 |
hans ze beeman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 4:00:22pm |
Thanks, Charles, for directing the lizardoid army to this socialist rag and confusing their silly games. I can't stop chuckling. Some Spiegel editors will scratch their heads the next days :)
Love the thread, btw.
| 354 |
Flaming Sword Fri, Mar 5, 2004 4:02:40pm |
#352 jpok:
How we feel about him is "relative". Do I wish we'd already acted against Syria and declined to negotiate with the PA? Yes.
Do I think Bush's "guest worker" program is risky? Yes.
Do I think Bush should have pushed harder and gotten the American people involved in getting his nominees through? Yes.
BUT...
Am I proud as hell at what the war on terror has already accomplished, and would I vote for Bush over ANYTHING the Democratic party could nominate?
HECK YES!
| 355 | WWII surviver Fri, Mar 5, 2004 4:02:47pm |
We once again turn the tide against hitler and the nazis!!!
Votes for Bush = 50.30%
Votes for hitler and the nazis a.k.a. latte leftists = 24.26%
| 356 |
Ringo the Gringo Fri, Mar 5, 2004 4:04:04pm |
Well, I guess we fixed that poll.
Next assignment please.
| 358 |
sgt tom Fri, Mar 5, 2004 4:13:04pm |
#357 okimutt
"how do you say SHOCK and AWE..."
easy:
LGF!
| 359 | WWII surviver Fri, Mar 5, 2004 4:27:03pm |
Approval rating for President Bush and the Allied Forces heads for 51% !!!
nazi approval rating falls below 24%
| 360 |
Robert Fri, Mar 5, 2004 4:34:38pm |
Guys, did you read about the Aussie poll?
[Link: news.ninemsn...]
Anyone figured out how to manipulate it? Whoever does so, please tell us. That poll seems it tracks your IP address so you can't just clear your cookies.
| 361 |
Barbara Skolaut Fri, Mar 5, 2004 4:44:21pm |
I pushed it over 51%! Thanks for the opportunity, Charles.
Glory, glory hallelujah...
| 362 |
Barbara Skolaut Fri, Mar 5, 2004 4:57:59pm |
#360 - it places 2 cookies - delete them both and you can vote again.
Come on, guys - at my last vote it was 11,463 to 20,951 (up from 11,418 to 20,940). Let's get on the stick here!
| 363 |
Dar ul Harb Fri, Mar 5, 2004 5:03:43pm |
Would this be considered a Distributed Denial of Polling attack?
Sipping Beck's Dark for the occaision
| 364 |
Dar ul Harb Fri, Mar 5, 2004 5:13:06pm |
Now don't feel too bad 'bout it, since
they say 3 percent of the people use 5 to 6 percent of their brain
97 percent use just 3 percent and the rest goes down the drain
now I don't know which one I am but I'll bet you my last dime
99 percent think we're 3 percent 100 percent of the timethey say 64 percent of all statistics are made up right there on the spot
84.4 percent of people believe em whether they're accurate statistics or not
now I don't know what you believe but I do know there's no doubt
I need another double shot of something 90 proof I got too much to think about
chorus
too much to think about
too much to figure out
stuck between hope and doubt
it's too much to think about
97 percent of what you learned in school was just bulls*** you don't need
81 percent of everthing you got you bought to satisfy your greed
because 86 percent of the whole population links possessions to success
even though 80 percent of the wealthiest 1 percent of the population
drinks to an alarming excess
more money more stresschorus
84 percent of all statisticians truly hate their jobs
they say the average bank robber lives within say a mile of the bank he robs
there's this little bank not far from here I've been watching for a while
lately all I can think about's how bad I wanna go out in style©2002 Todd Snider, "Statistician's Blues"
| 365 |
Spiny Norman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 5:23:56pm |
Hey! Where'd everybody go? Are we still participating in the little poll thingie?
I thought I'd share a absurd spam email title I just got:
Incontestably B. Symmetrically
LOL! I don't know why I find that hilarious, but I do.
| 366 | dan rudy Fri, Mar 5, 2004 5:25:39pm |
Hey folks...
as a new resident of Palm beach County Florida...you think there is any way we could do the similar "influencing" for the coming elections here now that they are electronic.???...
| 367 |
Dar ul Harb Fri, Mar 5, 2004 6:19:44pm |
GERMANS LOVE GEORGE W. BUSH! Why just look at this online poll!
| 369 | Joshua Scholar Fri, Mar 5, 2004 6:55:24pm |
Did LGFer's place the 1500 #2 votes as well, or are we inspiring Germans to consider following the virtual crowd here?
| 370 | dan rudy Fri, Mar 5, 2004 7:15:14pm |
josh,
I believe the number 2 votes were also added by one of our resident hackers who wrote a re-voting program...see above
| 372 |
Dan Kauffman Fri, Mar 5, 2004 7:32:27pm |
1-9521
2-1608
3-0176
4-0493
5-1878
6-3968
Wonder how long before they figure out what's happenijng? ;-)
| 373 |
Andrew B. Fri, Mar 5, 2004 7:41:24pm |
I am still going at it...it's 1 in the morning here...
I have no fucking life...but hey I am doing something good eh?
Andrew B.
| 376 | Grosse Pointe Sat, Mar 6, 2004 1:26:02am |
We wouldn't be the first Americans to F--- Up a German Plan.
| 377 |
levi from queens Sat, Mar 6, 2004 2:47:54am |
Its 2 p.m. CET (Central European time) and we are still rolling. (Only 5 a.m. PST but 8 her in the East) pushing towards 60%.
| 378 |
Big Digger Sat, Mar 6, 2004 3:34:15am |
At 5:32AM PST, it's now 56% for option 1.
BWAHAHAHAHA!
| 379 | silenus Sat, Mar 6, 2004 5:28:32am |
Check out [Link: www.editorsoffice.de...] for a Germans baffled opinion! Muhahahahaha
| 380 |
zulubaby Sat, Mar 6, 2004 5:46:29am |
silenus (#379)
That is so hysterical. They're dazed and confused by the results of the poll.
| 381 | silenus Sat, Mar 6, 2004 6:44:30am |
zulubaby (#380)
Yeah, she thinks there’s gonna be some kind of revolution in Deutschland - feel the power of L-G-F! :}
| 382 |
Helen Sat, Mar 6, 2004 7:06:03am |
#340, if you're using a mac, apple's site has a little program you can use to mask your IP by bouncing.
| 383 |
Barbara Skolaut Sat, Mar 6, 2004 7:10:18am |
12:09 pm EST Saturday: 58.01% for #1!
Gee, I had no idea the Germans liked our President so much! I'm impressed by their obvious good taste and understanding of world politics.
(Hee-hee-hee) :-p
| 384 |
J.D. Sat, Mar 6, 2004 7:19:08am |
Barbara Skolaut
It is fascinating! Perhaps the Germans are beginning to see the light?
Heh.
| 385 |
leo (dissident view from Berlin) Sat, Mar 6, 2004 7:22:53am |
In fact Der Spiegel is a centrist weekly, not a leftist one. Not that such differences would mean much in today's Germany. But if one calls Der Spiegel leftist, it implies that the political center was somewhere on the right of Der Spiegel. This is not the case. Unfortunately, Der Spiegel is the current center of gravity of German public opinion. Der Spiegel is the only German paper to which King Fahd ever gave an interview. It can be described as a government mouthpiece.
Der Spiegel's irrational Bush-bashing is a distraction from the fact that Germany currently is governed by the doctrine of antiimperialism:
Islamism and antiimperialism are two complementary manifestations of the same apocalyptic cult in different cultures. But while the terrorists of 9/11 believed they could defeat the U.S. with a single surprise attack against the "mosque of commerce" (Laurie Kerr), the Antiimps invented the Jenin hoax to globally submit human rights to sharia under the pretense of Antifascism. The Islamists are that dazzled by their suicidal ideology, that they get to completely delusional estimations of the consequences of their own actions. The Antiimps however, within certain ideological limits, are strategic thinkers who try to rationally navigate the irrational force of the globalized death cult for purpose. However this does not change the fact that antiimperialism also is a suicidal movement. If it would achieve its goals, nothing would remain of the euphonic purposes which it employs to legitimize them. Instead, just by its victory, behind the facade of altruism of which it can't get enough as long as acting out of a position of weakness, the totalitarian sacrifice cult which already had been specific for Nazism would come to the fore.
see: The Red-Green Lie
| 386 |
Spiny Norman Sat, Mar 6, 2004 9:34:01am |
#385 leo
In fact Der Spiegel is a centrist weekly, not a leftist one. Not that such differences would mean much in today's Germany. But if one calls Der Spiegel leftist, it implies that the political center was somewhere on the right of Der Spiegel. This is not the case.
I've never really understood how the political center is so nebulous. It seems the "center" in a Socialist country like France or Belgium could be somewhere to the left of the US Democrats. I'm boggled.
On a related issue that seems to back up leo's assertion, it appears Der Speigel isn't exactly enamoured of John Effin' Kerry, either:
US-WAHLKAMPF: Republikaner attackieren Flip-Flop-Kerry
I don't read German, but "Flip-Flop-Kerry" isn't exactly a compliment. LOL!
| 387 |
Bourgeois Reactionary Sat, Mar 6, 2004 10:15:05am |
Saturday:
1 12177 58.57%
2 1776 8.54%
3 188 0.90%
4 506 2.43%
5 1917 9.22%
6 4226 20.33%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 20790
Glenn Reynolds has a link to the poll (through medienkritik):
"GERMANS LOVE GEORGE BUSH! Why, just look at this online poll!"
[Link: www.instapundit.com...]
| 388 |
Right Wing Conspirator Sat, Mar 6, 2004 10:59:26am |
Oh yeah !!!
I took a trip to Philly last night so I couldn't see what was going on with the pole. How did I know that the Minions would pull off such a great fuc*ing job. Funny as hell !!!
| 390 |
Spiny Norman Sat, Mar 6, 2004 7:13:41pm |
justdanny,
Uh-oh! It's dropping... was 59.87% a couple hours ago.
;^)
| 391 |
zuckerlilly Sat, Mar 6, 2004 10:00:53pm |
#385 leo (dissident view from Berlin) 3/6/2004 09:22AM PST
In fact Der Spiegel is a centrist weekly, not a leftist one. Not that such differences would mean much in today's Germany. But if one calls Der Spiegel leftist, it implies that the political center was somewhere on the right of Der Spiegel. This is not the case. Unfortunately, Der Spiegel is the current center of gravity of German public opinion...
Sorry for correcting you, but you have to differ between the printed "Spiegel" and the "Spiegel online".
"Spiegel online" is a lefties medium and believe me, I fight my battles every day there in the discussions forums for Israel and the USA (I think, I´m the most hated poster on "Spiegel online" ;-)))
Greetings
| 392 |
Chris Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:39:20am |
#386 Spiny Norman
The translation is awful, but it's better than stopping at "Flip-Flop" - and you get the idea.
[Link: babelfish.altavista.com...]
| 393 |
David Sun, Mar 7, 2004 9:40:38am |
#385 "In fact Der Spiegel is a centrist weekly, not a leftist one."
SPIEGEL in a world wide comparison is left of TIME, Newsweek, NYT, LA Times. With the exception of 1990 when Rudolf Augstein (SPIEGEL's publisher) supported Helmut Kohl (because of his reunification efforts), SPIEGEL always declared itself in favour of a left-wing victory in the national elections. To call SPIEGEL "centrist" isn't doing these guys justice... Augstein himself called SPIEGEL a left-wing magazine.
And SPIEGEL ONLINE offers disgusting left-wing, anti-American content.
BTW: You may want to check our presentation of SPIEGEL ONLINE's likely reaction to our LGF-supported poll action: "SPIEGEL ONLINE With Large Pro-Bush User Base"
[Link: medienkritik.typepad.com...]
| 394 | Patrick Kovchok Sun, Mar 7, 2004 1:46:47pm |
1 22100 59.60%
2 5053 13.63%
3 3008 8.11%
4 524 1.41%
5 1967 5.30%
6 4431 11.95%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 37083
| 395 |
Smit Mon, Mar 8, 2004 1:06:11am |
1 - 60.05%
Who would have thought Mr Bush was so popular!
| 396 | a german Mon, Mar 8, 2004 2:42:11am |
look at you, childich morons.
hope you die of your own polluted air. actually, I take that back, that's below my level of argumentation.
we won't get heart attacks because of this shit. we can deal with this. obviously you cannot deal with us not liking you, otherwise you wouldn't behave like that.
grow up. there's more to life than this. but you'll never understand anyway, will ya?
p.s.: who still uses AOL?
p.p.s.: who can be so freakingly dumb not to know how to delete a cookie? this is true rulership of microsoft over you. lost control about your machine, ey?
and now: some german lesson:
Das ist doch alles Kinderkacke hier!
seriously.
| 397 | Herr Unbekannt Mon, Mar 8, 2004 3:20:31am |
Recht hat der Mann.
Unter Adolf hät´s das nicht gegeben!
| 398 | a german Mon, Mar 8, 2004 3:26:46am |
GENAU
und beim spiegel (online wie offline) arbeiten eh nur schwule(!) linke (!) nazis.
mal sehen, wie ihr das durch euren babbelfisch bekommt. schlafmützen.
| 399 | hahaha Mon, Mar 8, 2004 3:55:00am |
do americans care what germans think ?
no.
does bush cares what americans think ?
no
hahahaha
| 400 | wer an gewalt denkt, wird auch so handeln Mon, Mar 8, 2004 4:37:22am |
lasst die amis auch mal spielen. ... ist doch schön anzusehen wie sich sich freuen :-)
wer anderen eine bratwurst brät, der hat ein bratwurstbratgerät
| 401 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:01:04am |
Dear German troll: Eat Kinderkacke and die. Thank you.
| 402 | wer an gewalt denkt, wird auch so handeln Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:19:52am |
keep chilling, thom
i thought germans and americans are friends, isn´t it ?
PS: kerry for president :-)
| 403 |
Charles Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:28:08am |
There's that famous German sense of humor again! Ha! Ha!
You are making me to feel the need for laughings.
| 405 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:31:21am |
America and Germany haven't been "friends" for some time now. A shame really. But if Germany wants to hitch its fate to Frawnce {snicker, giggle, snort}, c'est la vie.
| 406 | wer an gewalt denkt, wird auch so handeln Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:35:23am |
i love these funny simple hearted brainwashed bush-kiddies in this forum...
go go, more of it sweety
| 407 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:39:33am |
Tell me, Troll, what was your favorite aspect of the Saddam Hussein dictatorship - gassing civilians or feeding them to shredders? The rape rooms or the child prisons?
| 408 | wer an gewalt denkt, wird auch so handeln Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:43:34am |
thom your problem is you dont know the difference between people and administration of these both nations.
i really like americans. i was a few weeks in your country and i think america is a fine country. i hope you think also about the german people. ok we have a different opinion in some points. but is this a reason to say german-american friendship is over ? what a rubbish sorry. if its really true from american side, i must ask if this friendship was real from america? real friends discuss problems, not close doors and say "asshole" ...
| 409 |
Charles Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:48:01am |
He likes us! He really likes us! Touch my monkey! Love him!
But seriously, Dieter, you have one of the worst cases of "what have you done for me lately" I've ever seen. Are you wearing black?
| 410 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:51:32am |
Dearest Troll -
I do indeed distinguish between people and governments. For example, I feel no personal animosity towards you.
Unfortunately, re the Iraq war, Germany's actions were far beyond a mere "difference of opinion". Germany's actions, in league with Frawnce, were duplicitous and despicable.
German officials publicly said outrageous things about our President.
Germany dumped on America, not vice versa.
German-American relations will probably survive in the long run. But it's going to be a bumpy road. Especially as long as Germany continues its headlong rush to collectivism and there is a conservative Republican in the White House.
| 412 | wer an gewalt denkt, wird auch so handeln Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:55:20am |
whats about guantamo bay thom? is this your way of human rights ? ok we musnt discuss about S. hussein he was a dictator no question. i must ask me why so much americans think that europeans say saddam was a hero . we also know he was a dictator. but, and thats the point of fact Bushadmin. lies about the beginning of war ! thats the problem. we see now that nothing has changed in iraq. terror and terror so far you can see. no wmd´s.
only death and destruction. it was the wrong way changed the regime with war . diplomatic wasn´t at the end in my opinion. the war could be prohibited
| 413 |
Jaffar abu Grand Vizier Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:00:35am |
#412
Your name: He who thinks of violence will do violence.
Did I get that right?
| 414 |
Smit Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:01:57am |
i must ask me why only Bush was capitalised in #412.
| 415 |
Jaffar abu Grand Vizier Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:02:11am |
#412
And Gitmo as a human rights violation? Please.
| 416 |
Geepers Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:03:14am |
wer an gewalt denkt, wird auch so handeln (#412)
whats about guantamo bay thom? is this your way of human rights ?
Good comeback.
Should I find the links about how the average Gitmo detainee has gained weight?
Or the Russian mothers who begged for their kids to stay in Cuba.
Or the Afghanis that were released who sing praise for their American "oppressors"?
| 417 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:07:12am |
#412 Herr Troll
whats about guantamo bay?
Apparently it's some kind of resort for misguided young jihadis
nothing has changed in iraq
Right.
Please come back when you have an argument.
| 418 | thornkacker Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:08:25am |
i remeber some months ago as french fries changed to freedom fries.
that`s the new american way.
if you are not with us you are aginst us.
you really make me laugh...hahaha
| 419 |
Renna Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:09:00am |
he was a dictator. but
That is the mantra, isn't it?
| 420 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:09:51am |
Guantanamo? Are you sure you want to tread that ground?
Concerning "lies". Could it be that no one lied? That the WMD case for war (only one case of several) was based on flawed but honest intelligence? Certainly the Security Council, which unanimously passed Resolution 1441, was convinced that Iraq had WMDs and had failed to account for them adequately.
Iraq is currently going through a civil war. If it survives as a democracy - and the USA is committed to that - the pain and suffering will have been worth it. The list of nations that came into existence peacefully is terribly short.
I think what really irritates Americans like me is the claim that "we're after Iraq's oil." Besides being patently false, it turns out that the countries who were really concerned about their oil and other financial interests in Iraq were - you guessed it! - Frawnce and Germany!!
Yay! dB^)
| 421 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:12:23am |
From the "Boys Town - Caribe" flier:
He spent a typical day watching movies, going to class and playing football. He was fascinated to learn about the solar system, and now enjoys reciting the names of the planets, starting with Earth. Less diverting were the twice-monthly interrogations about his knowledge of al-Qaida and the Taliban. But, as Asadullah's answer was always the same - "I don't know anything about these people" - these sessions were merely a bore: an inevitably tedious consequence, Asadullah suggests with a shrug, of being held captive in Guantanamo Bay.
| 422 | wer an gewalt denkt, wird auch so handeln Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:12:41am |
thom, schroeder say only "NO" we don´like war. and the german people stand behind them 100%
we saw the problems that is now reality in iraq.
i think both sides speech was not ok (rumsfelds old europe,german minister : bush is like hitler )
it was scaring to see how US-politicans talk with such an arrogance about europe and other countries which not support USA in this conflict. thats the reason why EU-people goes the way to Bush critical position. i think we need more communication between USpeople and EUpeople.
and charly go home take your barbie and start thinkin!! its time for growin up
| 423 |
Geepers Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:13:44am |
Cuba? It was great, say boys freed from US prison camp
He spent a typical day watching movies, going to class and playing football. He was fascinated to learn about the solar system, and now enjoys reciting the names of the planets, starting with Earth.
Guantanamo inmate 'wants to stay'
A Russian citizen held at the US military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, has said he is afraid to return home because prison conditions there are far worse.
"I don't think there is even a sanatorium in Russia that would compare to this," Ayrat Vakhitov said in a letter to his mother published by Russia's Gazeta newspaper.
Packing on the pounds at America's toughest prison.
Is America the only country in the world that could run a prison camp where prisoners gain weight? Upon leaving, it has been reported, each man received two parting gifts: a brand new copy of the Koran as well as a new pair of jeans. Not the act of generosity that it might first appear, the jeans, at least, turned out to be a necessity. During their stay (14-months on average), the detainees (nearly all of them) had gained an average of 13 pounds.
The Horror!
| 424 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:15:37am |
More
The food in the camp was delicious, the teaching was excellent, and his warders were kind. "Americans are good people, they were always friendly, I don't have anything against them," he said. "If my father didn't need me, I would want to live in America."
| 425 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:18:28am |
Do you have a name? Your nic is so unwieldy that I hesitate to refer to you by it. My name's Thom.
"Old Europe" got up yer crall, did it? Well, it's true. The same Europe that has been at war with itself for centuries is still clinging to the Westphalian fallacy of sovereignty over legitimacy in government.
Bush = Hitler, coming from an ostensibly repsonsible government official, is a mortal insult. Fortunately for Germany, Bush is a man who doesn't let crap like that get to him.
So it all comes down to "American arrogance" does it? That's a pretty childish basis for foreign policy, wouldn't you say?
| 426 |
Jaffar abu Grand Vizier Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:20:42am |
#422 wer an gewalt denkt, wird auch so handeln
schroeder say only "NO" we don´like war. and the german people stand behind them 100%
But schroeder said the answer would be 'nein' irrespective of what the UNSC decided. And if you are correct, and the German people were 100% behind that decision, what is the bloody point of "more communication between USpeople and EUpeople."?
Let's face it, EU opposition to the war in Iraq was not principled opposition. The EU decided to try to thwart and embarrass the U.S. for its own petty needs, and to continue on the gravy train of the corrupt Oil for Food program, not because it gave a damn, then or now, about Iraq. When you say that 'nothing has changed' in Iraq you are just displaying your ignorance. What nation, especially democracies, have started in peace and tranquility? German democracy, which allows you to spout your ignorance, was brought to you by the U.S. and British Army. And you find it strange, or wrong, or immoral that the same is the case with Iraq?
| 429 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:23:52am |
One more. This stuff is too good
Asadullah is even more sure of this. "Americans are great people, better than anyone else," he said, when found at his elder brother's tiny fruit and nut shop in a muddy backstreet of Kabul. "Americans are polite and friendly when you speak to them. They are not rude like Afghans. If I could be anywhere, I would be in America. I would like to be a doctor, an engineer _ or an American soldier."
| 430 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:26:58am |
Mein Herr Troll:
| 431 | promoter Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:27:43am |
Thank you folks.
Now we all know how Bush becamed president...
...with clearing cookies.
| 432 |
zulubaby Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:29:13am |
The title of this thread is
Help Drive the German Left Crazy
Evidently we've succeeded.
| 433 | wer an gewalt denkt, wird auch so handeln Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:30:19am |
hmm, well
very funny thom
its interesting how different the press coverage in US and germany is. in germany and other eu countries they talk about warcrimes etc. is it possible that we all getting lied?
this report which where posted sounds like holiday in florida, thats a joke isn´t it ? its true german and france have commercial contacts to iraq and it was one reason because G and F was against the war. but nobody can tell me that US invades Iraq to bring them peace,freedom and democracy. if you are interested i´ll copy in the next time some posts about UScritical-posts in germany about this theme.
| 434 |
Charles Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:31:52am |
holiday fan/promoter -- your biting sarcasm has intimidated me to the point of humiliation. Would you care to strike me?
| 435 | pointer Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:40:34am |
its true german and france have commercial contacts to iraq...
who selled the chemical weapons to Iraq ?
Germany, France or U.S. ?
Lets vote !
| 436 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:40:41am |
Mein Herr: I think not only is it possible that you are being lied to, it is a near certainty. Lies can take many forms including outright misstatements of fact, lies of omission, and distortion of fact. Given the far left nature of most European news sources (that make CNN seem sober and unbiased) and their hatred of America ... well, what's 2+2?
Many links have been posted about Guantanamo. They are not a joke. There are no human rights violations there. The prisoners - taken in arms against American troops, members of the Taliban and al Qaeda, some innocently caught up in events - are well-cared for.
Some people - like me - think they are cared for far too well. But I am bloodthirsty and violent.
Why did the US and our allies invade Iraq?
- Unaccounted-for WMDs
- Iraq was actively funding terrorists
- Human rights atrocities
- Fear of a gathering threat to the US and the West from a psychotic who could not be tolerated in a post-9/11 era
The list goes on.
| 437 |
John Gibbon Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:42:51am |
Herr Name too long
its interesting how different the press coverage in US and germany is. in germany and other eu countries they talk about warcrimes etc. is it possible that we all getting lied?
...Not lied, but exaggerated, told from second ‘parties’ and if investigated probably false…
To what warcrimes are you talking about?
I've lived in Germany for over 12 years combined, I have many German friends and relatives for that matter. They have a completely different view than you do.
| 438 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:43:23am |
I will say this - I think I was wrong to call you a troll.
But your entrance! Wow. It was an honest mistake.
| 439 |
Charles Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:44:05am |
Genius! By embracing the cliches of the European progressive, he underscores their excruciating banality.
| 440 | promoter Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:44:05am |
No sorry charly, I´m not here to hurt you.
Ask someone else.
| 441 | commentator Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:48:36am |
Why did the US and our allies invade Iraq?
- Unaccounted-for WMDs
- Iraq was actively funding terrorists
- Human rights atrocities
- Fear of a gathering threat to the US and the West from a psychotic who could not be tolerated in a post-9/11 eraThe list goes on.
...the list goes on with the oil sea.
Are you blind or do you think all others are blind ?
| 443 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:50:00am |
Charles - these aren't all the same person, are they?
| 444 |
Charles Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:50:36am |
It is true. We are blind, and doomed, and it fills me with remorse. It is delicious.
| 446 |
Renna Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:51:55am |
its interesting how different the press coverage in US and germany is. in germany and other eu countries they talk about warcrimes etc. is it possible that we all getting lied?
Exactly! Now you're getting it! Yeah, german-person! Don't believe everything you read. Go for the raw data whenever possible. And with the internet, it is possible quite often now.
but nobody can tell me that US invades Iraq to bring them peace,freedom and democracy
Oops, spoke too soon. Are you saying that no amont of evidence, facts, etc. will sway you? Well, thanks for the heads up, buddy. Nice of you to save us some time.
| 447 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:52:36am |
#433 Herr Troll
its interesting how different the press coverage in US and germany is. in germany and other eu countries they talk about warcrimes etc. is it possible that we all getting lied?
Light Dawns on Marblehead!
but nobody can tell me that US invades Iraq to bring them peace,freedom and democracy
Of course not, that would threaten the core of your whole belief system. Better to believe it was about oil.
| 448 |
EW1(SG) Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:55:39am |
#433 wer an gewalt denkt, wird auch so handeln:
they talk about warcrimes etc. is it possible that we all getting lied?
In a word, yes.
Where's Hans when we need him?
| 449 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:55:43am |
Charles - Ack! Even "wer an gewalt denkt, wird auch so handeln"? (I'm gonna feel like a 'tard if he's one of Legion as well.)
| 450 |
Charles Mon, Mar 8, 2004 6:57:10am |
"Weird Danke Schoen" up there seems to be a different weenie.
| 451 |
EW1(SG) Mon, Mar 8, 2004 7:00:03am |
#433 wer an gewalt denkt, wird auch so handeln: Oh, and this comment:
but nobody can tell me that US invades Iraq to bring them peace,freedom and democracy.
make me think you might want to check what Iraqis are saying: [Link: healingiraq.blogspot.com...]
| 453 |
Charles Mon, Mar 8, 2004 7:18:44am |
Our referrers page shows links from several German forums and blog sites. They're on to us.
| 454 | The Editrix Mon, Mar 8, 2004 7:20:27am |
Well done boyz and girlz!
Next time you want to sabotage a German poll and need language tips, just ask me!
[Link: www.editorsoffice.de...]
| 456 |
John Gibbon Mon, Mar 8, 2004 7:41:11am |
#455 Geepers
You mean the Germans are going to attack us?!
oooh, I'm scared...
Last time that happened, The Ardennes Offensive, Dec 1944.
In a month, German tanks were stopped cold by a few paratroopers and engineers, ha!
I kind of like the fact that more people in the United States are starting to prefer Japanese built luxery cars to German ones...heh, heh
| 457 |
Smit Mon, Mar 8, 2004 7:44:14am |
#456 John Gibbon
Please to stop the pretending you are scared of us game please.
/best simpsons ever
| 459 |
Geepers Mon, Mar 8, 2004 7:54:03am |
Smit (#457),
| 460 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 7:54:22am |
It's weird how they all just vanished. Did Germany go to sleep or what?
| 461 |
John Gibbon Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:03:35am |
#460 Thom
Government enforced Kaffe' break!
Yah, all der computern off!
| 462 |
Tupsox Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:06:56am |
Got the fight late,
but I'd point out to our german friend here the 'uproar' at French after the US won the Feb-Mar 2003 battle in Iraq so easily.
France was fed a steady diet of news showing how bad and quaqmirish the campaign was going.
Then we won. In a cakewalk. blew them away.
Maybe the same thing happened in Germany? Which one of us is being lied to by the press?
| 463 | wer an gewalt denkt, wird auch so handeln Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:09:17am |
#437 John Gibbon
read this. thats what i am talkin about :
[Link: hrw.org...]
#447 papijoe
i dont talk about lies in europe, bush lies you and its nice to see how easy it is americans getting ready to make war at the ass of the world for a few bottles of oil :-)
#456 John Gibbon
no john germans learn about his history they learn that war don´t resolve problems. i remember that USA told us that this is the right way :-)
#451 EW1(SG)
but nobody can tell me that US invades Iraq to bring them peace,freedom and democracy.
make me think you might want to check what Iraqis are saying: [Link: healingiraq.b...]
thats the reason why 500 Us-soldiers died after bush says "mission accomplished" the iraqis love the US sure :-)
| 464 | The Editrix Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:16:50am |
This is about German anti-Americanism:
[Link: www.editorsoffice.de...]
| 465 | andreas Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:17:31am |
hello from old europe! by the way: what do you think, where your ancestors are coming from, if you are not black? so in fact, we might be related... :O)
nice thought.
a few facts about peace, freedom and democracy...
Year that U.S. oil companies were prohibited from investing in, or buying, Iraqi oil: 1991
Year that Dick Cheney, as head of oil field equipment manufacturer Halliburton, called for the end to sanctions against Iraq: 2000
Number of Iraqi children who have died as a direct result of sanctions, according to UNICEF: 500,000
U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08
Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military budgets of Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1
Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 1985: 31
Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 2000: 36
Number of Americans killed during the first Gulf War: 148
Proportion of Americans killed by "friendly fire" during the first Gulf War: 1 in 3
Number of Iraqis killed during the first Gulf War: 100,000
Number of Americans killed during the Vietnam War: 58,000
Number of Vietnamese killed during the Vietnam War: 5.1 million
i do not understand the whole point of making a poll on your president in germany either.
but your totally agreement with mr bush is amazing. did you know that there was a man, called prescott bush, grandfather of G.W., who helped to sell american weapons, petrol and cars to hitlers SA? Do you know how the bush family is linked with the bin- laden- family?
maybe, there have been a few presidents in your history, who might have made a few mistakes. do you know, that about half a million children in vietnam are still suffering from "agent orange", which are not expected to reach their 20th birthday? there must have been a mistake. do you know that eisenhower knew exactly time and date of the japanese operation "pearl harbor" a month earlier?
stuff like that happens all the time in history. nero burnt rom, hitler burnt his "reichstag", eisenhower let pearl harbor happen.
it might be an insult to compare bush with hitler. but do you know, what maketh a hitler look like a hitler?
he will tell you, that you are the good ones. and only you. outthere, in the dark, there are the enemies. they hate you. they hate you very much. they hate freedom and democracy. they are russians, jews and communists. and terrorists and islamists and frenchmen of course.
that does not mean, that german schrödersor kohls are the good ones.
but if there are mistakes which such horrible consequences, all of us should carefully watch our governments. every horrible mistake was always covered in pariotism.
there was a very wise man in your history, who said:
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. samuel johnson, 7.4.1775
beware of people, who are trying to tell you, that you are surrounded by hatred. maybe, there are a few friendly people out there, who would like to drink a beer with you.
however...
to read your your conversation was very fanny. you are great guys over there. :O)
best wishes... andreas
| 467 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:25:36am |
#463 Deutsche-troll
Oh that, along with the mass graves must have been another lie perpetuated by our government
I don't blame you for posting under other names. You were just doing your best to be multilateral. Can't expect a European to go it alone, like, like a cowboy or something.
Funny how those Iraqis who hate us so much that they try to kill us end up being from other countries. Ooops, another lie...
| 469 |
RIP Ford Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:27:38am |
is americans getting ready to make war at the ass of the world for a few bottles of oil
Hey Fritz,
9/11 Remember that? We Do.
Oil? You putz, we get most of our oil from Venezuala, Mexico, Canada and Saudi Arabia. IF it was about oil, we would have invaded Venezuala months ago and settled their current political crisis once and for all.
Venezuela and Western African countries are at the top of the list of countries that the US imports from.
Developed nations which are the most dependant on Middle Eastern oil are France, Germany, China, India, Japan, and Korea.
Saddam Hüseyin is using the oil, his most important weapon, masterfully. There are many pre-agreements on oil fields with Russian, Chinese, and French companies, to bypass the U.N. embargo. There are approximately 7-8 billion barrels of oil in the largest project, West Kurna field, and the daily production can go up to 600 million barrels. Final contract for this field with Russian Lukoil is waiting for the lifting of the U.N. embargo. The closer Vladimir Putin, Russian President, gets to the US theories on Iraq, the more problems are discovered easily by the Iraqi administration related to the contract. This is very concerning for Putin since Russia is expecting to collect her receivables, due to the $7-8 billion dollars of weapons sales to Iraq, via this contract.
In the current situation, the lion’s share from the Iraqi oil seems to have been grabbed by the French. Total Fina Elf (TFE) Company has already signed the final contracts on the 10 billion barrel Mecnun and 6 billion barrel Nahr Umar fields. TFE’s contracts have been approved by the Iraqi parliament, and are therefore considered international contracts. These two fields will double the total TFE-owned reserves. The total value of the two oil fields in the hands of TFE is one trillion dollars.
It is certainly not a coincidence that France, Russia, and China, which are receiving the biggest share of the Iraqi oil, are also permanent members of the U.N. Security Council with veto power. Saddam Hüseyin has pointed the barrel of the “oil weapon” in his hands towards the U.N. Security Council. Outside of these countries, companies from many countries from Italy to Vietnam are after contracts in Iraq.
| 470 | wer an gewalt denkt, wird auch danach handeln Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:28:37am |
henryk broder :-)
also called "mister propaganda"
at second time : i talk about your administration not about america
| 471 |
RIP Ford Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:28:57am |
#465 andreas
by the way: what do you think, where your ancestors are coming from, if you are not black? so in fact, we might be related... :O)
Why do you think we left?
| 472 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:36:39am |
#465 andreas
All those "facts" and the only citation was for Samuel Johnson. Well done.
I've been so duped by my government is didn't even realize that one out of three troops in GW1 were killed by friendly fire. Incredible!
Did Eisenhower let Pearl Harbor happen when he was president or when he was in charge of the Army in Europe. Please help me, I don't know who to trust anymore!
And Jews are the enemy? Now that sounds familiar!
| 473 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:39:47am |
Charles, how about sending anti-semitic POS andreas to the outer darkness.
| 474 |
RIP Ford Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:42:12am |
#473 papijoe
It feels like the "good ol days" back in England. Useless tripe and faux intelligence do not make interesting conversation.
| 475 | The Editrix Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:42:27am |
Does it hurt to be that dumb?
I just posted this brilliant article [Link: www.editorsoffice.de...] that exposes the Germans as the assholes they are and lo and behold you appear to prove that it is all true!
Year that U.S. oil companies were prohibited from investing in, or buying, Iraqi oil: 1991Year that Dick Cheney, as head of oil field equipment manufacturer Halliburton, called for the end to sanctions against Iraq: 2000
Number of Iraqi children who have died as a direct result of sanctions, according to UNICEF: 500,000
U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08
Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military budgets of Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1
Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 1985: 31
Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in 2000: 36
Number of Americans killed during the first Gulf War: 148
Proportion of Americans killed by "friendly fire" during the first Gulf War: 1 in 3
Number of Iraqis killed during the first Gulf War: 100,000
Number of Americans killed during the Vietnam War: 58,000
Number of Vietnamese killed during the Vietnam War: 5.1 million
...your totally agreement with mr bush is amazing. did you know that there was a man, called prescott bush, grandfather of G.W., who helped to sell american weapons, petrol and cars to hitlers SA? Do you know how the bush family is linked with the bin- laden- family?
... do you know that eisenhower knew exactly time and date of the japanese operation "pearl harbor" a month earlier?
The oldest, corniest, stalest shit from the anti-American Mottenkiste!
People like you make me blush that I am German as well!
| 476 | wer an gewalt denkt alias J.E Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:45:41am |
1990 the usa had an oilconsumption of 20,4 barrels/day
in 2010 its increased at ca. 29,6 Barrels a day.i dont talk about the present. do you really think that your admin dont thinking about the future ? Iraq has a very big oil-capacity. and US is the biggest oil consumer in the whole world. is it really unrealistic to assume the bushadm. they make war against iraq because of getting oil and assist national oil-companies ???
is it possible that 9/11 was the best thing bush what bush come about `?
source of US-oilconsumption :
[Link: www.diw.de...]
| 477 | andreas Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:48:49am |
471 RIP Ford
by the way: what do you think, where your ancestors are coming from, if you are not black? so in fact, we might be related... :O)
"Why do you think we left? "
what are you going to tell me?
did YOU leave old europe and do you still remember your reasons? :O)
i guess, you have left, because in europe there are ugly people like me, dangerous and full of hatred.
| 478 | The Editrix Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:48:57am |
henryk broder :-)
Yes, THE BEST of the few good brains we still have in Germany!
| 479 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:50:26am |
#476 wer an gewalt denkt alias J.E
is it possible that 9/11 was the best thing bush what bush come about `?
You are a disgusting human being. I think I'm done with this thread. Fucking troll.
| 480 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:51:45am |
Germans, friends, foes, or otherwise:
Lets be clear about something. You want to have a frank and lively exchange of ideas. Wunderbar. Feel free to come hear and exchange your lame moldy morally relativistic half baked lefty existentialist ideas for some better ones. The pleasure is ours. But as soon as you want to start trotting out your creepy racist/anti-semitic innuendoes, you're not welcome here. In the US we're not afraid to stick up for anyone who is being slandered or libelled, and at least most of us aren't afraid to take a position on right or wrong. If you want to be our friends, take a little time to understand us. This is a good start
| 481 |
zulubaby Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:53:15am |
The German trolls posting on this thread do well to reinforce everything people despise about the Germans.
| 482 | The Editrix Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:54:41am |
And Jews are the enemy? Now that sounds familiar!
Of course! The creep is German. A leopard doesn't shed his spots!
| 483 |
RIP Ford Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:57:36am |
#476 wer an gewalt denkt alias J.E
Yes Bush is thinking about the future, and the source is not the Middle East. He'll leave that to the Europeans.
Russia has more oil than any country outside the sheikhdoms of the Middle East. That simple geological fact confers even greater geopolitical importance on the nation than it enjoyed prior to Sept. 11
The United States, the world's largest consumer of petroleum, imports most of its oil, a trend that has grown over the last 30 years as consumption ballooned and domestic production slipped. Oil from Canada, Mexico, Venezuela and Nigeria together accounts for more than 50 percent of imports.But the Bush administration wants to diversify even further. Over the last year, the administration has pushed hardest for getting more oil from Russia, the world's second- largest producer after Saudi Arabia.
At a Commerce Department conference in Houston this month, American and Russian oil executives discussed ways to get more Russian oil onto world markets. Marathon Oil and Rosneft, the Russian state oil company, announced an agreement at the conference that calls for Marathon to help Rosneft sell more oil in the United States while the companies jointly look for oil production projects in Russia.
From Russia With Oil - Astro Lupus Arrives In Texas
2002/07/04
The 1,054-foot tanker Astro Lupus has arrived in Houston with the first ever cargo of Russian crude oil and a message.The shipment is part of Russia's effort to reclaim its perch as the world's largest oil producer, a title held before the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. The sale also is a sign of Russian President Vladimir Putin's drive to strengthen economic and political ties with the US and loosen the grip of Middle East oil producers on the world energy markets.
| 484 | j.e Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:03:01am |
i wonder why anybody here is getting agressive ?
remember :
the only thing you do is praying Bush-warpropaganda again and again. anything other is rubbish and false.
dissidents are "assholes", "fucking trolls", "You are a disgusting human being"...a.s.o
is this the kind of american discussing ?
what about independend facts for example from other country except USA which are controlled by bushadm. ?
is it possible that you dont want to here other meanings?
because the "truth" of your adm. is the easierst way to live your american life ? ok its your live. we will see who as the right on his side in a few years...
| 485 | dieter der deutsche Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:07:23am |
andreas wrote:
it might be an insult to compare bush with hitler. but do you know, what maketh a hitler look like a hitler? he will tell you, that you are the good ones. and only you. outthere, in the dark, there are the enemies. they hate you. they hate you very much. they hate freedom and democracy. they are russians, jews and communists. and terrorists and islamists and frenchmen of course.
maybe what he wrote wasn't clever or sensitive (it's always a little... funny when germans accuse others of crimes against humanity), but it doesn't seem antsemitic to me.
aside from that, there are lots of assholes in germany, that's true... the schadenfreude that some express when another US soldier is killed in iraq - well that's disgusting. but not all of them are assholes.
| 486 |
RIP Ford Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:07:45am |
#477 andreas
did YOU leave old europe and do you still remember your reasons? :O)
| 487 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:07:54am |
Saying that 9/11 was the best thing to happen for Bush is beyond the pale. It is an outrage. It has no place in rational discourse.
I'm not sure what happened with this troll - we had been having a civil discussion. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm about ready for some mass bannings and deletions ...
| 489 | j.e Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:10:01am |
dieter der deutsche das problem in diesem forum ist das wir als deutsche zunächst mal grundsätzlich arschlöcher sind
ich bin mir nicht sicher ob es sinn macht die leute hier vom gegenteil zu überzeugen...
| 490 |
RIP Ford Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:13:35am |
Andre,
The short version.
Opportunity. My family left Köln after centuries of subsistance and social stratification for the chance to make a life for themselves here. It is a story that every American understands and relates to, no matter their previous nationality or race.
| 491 | The Editrix Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:13:59am |
If you want to be our friends, take a little time to understand us. This is a good start
Excellent article, but you credit most Germans with too much intelligence, goodwill and grasp of English language.
| 492 |
RIP Ford Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:15:49am |
#487 Thom
Saying that 9/11 was the best thing to happen for Bush is beyond the pale. It is an outrage. It has no place in rational discourse
It reaffirms for me, that Europeans have no concept of how 9/11 affected the nation. They haven't a clue.
| 493 | The Editrix Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:16:30am |
Wieso? Die meisten Deutschen SIND doch Arschlöcher und ihr habt es eben wieder einmal bewiesen.
| 494 |
Geepers Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:16:59am |
j.e (#484),
what about independend facts for example from other country except USA which are controlled by bushadm. ?
Facts is facts. You don't actually believe that the Bush Administration controls the press do you?
Why don't you give us a list of approved sources for facts and we'll work from there.
And just what are you trying to convince us of anyway?
| 495 | j.e Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:20:53am |
thom is it forbidden to speculate about things ?
today the whole world ask why the germans 39-45 dont do anything at the beginning of naziterror. i dont want to say america is on the same way BUT the world is afraid about the american released power !!! you dont understand this ?
our picture of bush is another like in your side. we see an president who says : who isn´t with us is against us.
what does he mean with this sentence ? are the germans now enemies because we say only one time since 45 NO?
the posts here are very agressive against germans.
the sentence bush said is the rule here. anybody say anything against bush , you wish this person to hell...
and dont forget :
germany was scared about 9/11 we was also shocked in this moment. many people here lited candles and weared t-shirts with american flaggs. WE ARE NOT ASSHOLES
| 496 | j.e Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:25:27am |
editrix wann habe ich bewiesen das ich ein arschloch bin ???
ich versuche hier mal die amerikanische sichtweise zu verstehen, ich habe hier niemanden beleidigt im gegensatz zu anderen hier. was ist so schlimm daran mal die sicht aus europa mit der sicht amerikas zu vergleichen erkär mir das bitte
| 497 |
RIP Ford Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:33:13am |
#495 j.e
Here is where we stand, in the cross hairs of militant Islam and we ask you for help. It is the first time since 1860 that America has asked Europe to help us and you and France can't be bothered. Not only that, you make it more difficult for us in the process. How are we supposed to feel about that. Pretend it didn't happen, that everything is fine?
| 498 |
BIG Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:33:52am |
Hey guys. It looks like the Germans are not happy with out handy work. #6 is coming on strong. Is there any chance Jeff R could run his script for awhile?
1 30661 43.85%
2 5288 7.56%
3 3166 4.53%
4 1185 1.69%
5 4331 6.19%
6 25286 36.17%
Gesamtbeteiligung: 69917
| 499 |
Renna Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:35:21am |
i dont want to say america is on the same way BUT the world is afraid about the american released power !!! you dont understand this ?
No, I understand perfectly. If most countries in the world had our power, they WOULD abuse it. They have. At no time in history has a country had the power we have and NOT used it. Yet we don't. Time and again, we go in, get the job done, and go home. Over and over and over again we have proven we Do. Not. Want empire. But the other countries would do it. Have tired it. They can't understand us.
Fear us not, lil' German friend. We don't want the world.
| 500 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:40:09am |
#484 j.e
Please show me one "dissident" post here that that made an argument backed up by fact that could be verified (web links are fine)?
#485 dieter der deutsche
I may have jumped the gun on andreas. When I re-parsed his babelfish English I realized he wasn't directly saying Jews were the enemy. Instead he's spouting the more common "Bush=Hitler" meme. As asinine as that sounds when anyone else says it, do you have any idea how that sounds coming from a German? What moral authority does anyone in Germany, or anywhere else for that matter to make that statement. What has Germany done for the world in the last 50 years?
So andreas, on the charge of old school anti-semitism, Innocent
On the new, popular morally relativistic anti-semitism- Guilty.
| 501 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:42:08am |
It is the first time since 1860 that America has asked Europe to help us and you and France can't be bothered.Such short memory? Afghanistan just a few months earlier doesn't count at all? (which might turn into a larger hotspot than Iraq)
We didn't believe Bush's arguments with WMD. And as history has shown, our judgement was right.
Perhaps next time Bush shall be more honest about his true reasons from the start?
| 502 |
Geepers Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:45:02am |
Berliner (#501),
Afghanistan just a few months earlier doesn't count at all?
Do detail the contributions Germany has made in Afghanistan.
| 503 |
zulubaby Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:45:43am |
papijoe (#500)
As asinine as that sounds when anyone else says it, do you have any idea how that sounds coming from a German?
It's obscene.
| 504 |
RIP Ford Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:49:08am |
#501 Berliner
We didn't believe Bush's arguments with WMD. And as history has shown, our judgement was right.
Jumping the gun aren't we. He had them, no doubt about that. He used them, no doubt about that. Where are they? Don't know. We have only search about 9% of the suspected sites so far. But hey, this was about oil anyway, right.
Such short memory? Afghanistan just a few months earlier doesn't count at all? (which might turn into a larger hotspot than Iraq)
It is part of the same fight.
| 505 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:53:28am |
Do detail the contributions Germany has made in Afghanistan.
More than most of the nations which Bush always so proudly lists as Allies in Iraq. (His long list of Allies at State of the Union was impressive - why do we hear so little about all these Allies on the ground in Iraq, but only from a handful of them?)
Germans are in Kabul and now in Kunduz. Also running some special ops. And considering today's low number of US-troops in Afghanistan, it's actually not that little put in relation to US troops there (compared with the quotas in Iraq between nations).
So you also believe Germany has done "nothing", like the original poster? Duuuhuu.
| 506 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:57:45am |
495 j.e
today the whole world ask why the germans 39-45 dont do anything at the beginning of naziterror. i dont want to say america is on the same way BUT the world is afraid about the american released power !!! you dont understand this ?
Consider the possibility of a country that has as much power as the US does right now that doesn't want to take over the world.
We're ambivalent about our power because we don't feel particularly threatened. The US is not defined by its need to impose it's will on the world, but by it's naivete about the actual threats that are out there.
The only semi-valid criticism I've heard from Europe is that we are fat, dumb and happy. Fine, if we are such a a threat now, do you want us to get leaner, meaner and wiser in the ways of the world? Ask the Trümmerfrauen who was a better steward of power after the war?
I don't think most Germans have the moral perception to understand why Germans irritate us. The French were always like this, no one was surprised. We actually expected better from the Germans.
| 507 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:59:50am |
Although the sick bastards infesting this thread are making me ill, I believe in giving credit where it's due:
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]
[Link: www.number-10.gov.uk...]
[Link: www.afgha.com...]
etc.
| 508 | j.e. Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:04:46am |
i only can suscribe to the view of berliner. germany did and do presently a fine job in afghanistan. iraq wasnt combined with al quaida or bin laden. there are no facts until the war. after the US/GB inasion iraq become an reservoir for international terrorists worldwide. that is FACT
and now tell me the war in iraq was part of war against terror resulted of 9/11
had america reacted oversized?
| 509 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:05:08am |
But hey, this was about oil anyway, right.
I don't think so. It was a strategic decision to get rid of Saddam and put pressure on Iran, Syria and perhaps most of all on Saudi-Arabia at the same time.
Now one could argue for or against the merits of this decision - but fact remains:
It was not about urgent WMD-threats, as we were told it was in so many fancy presentations. Perhaps for starters the Bush-administration could be a bit more honest next time about their plannings, and they would be met with less apparently needed suspicion about their arguments?
| 510 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:07:27am |
Although the sick bastards infesting this thread are making me ill
Yeah, you too.
Actually, it's people like you with your attitude and "tolerance" who give America a bad name - but don't worry, Germany also has its large share of Twits like you.
A global problem, I guess.
| 511 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:08:29am |
It's fucking amazing that none of these idiots bothers to read any of the links provided for their information. They just keep asserting the same discredited bullshit.
| 512 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:10:44am |
And "Berliner" obviously hasn't bothered to read this thread.
Start here, dickhead, and work your way down.
| 513 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:12:01am |
I post links defending Germany's role in Afghanistan and this pompous prick attacks my "attitude" and "tolerance". Fucking dumbass.
| 514 |
Promethea Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:15:38am |
Berliner, etc. . . .
You Germans seem to have trouble with the concept that there is more than one cause for the war in Iraq. Here are several:
1. Iraq had programs for WMD (not in dispute--just the actual canisters of anthrax and mustard gas)
2. Iraq supported terrorists in 1993 World Trade Center bombing
3. Iraq paid terrorists in "Palestine" $25,000 per family to blow up Israelis
4. Saudi Arabia finances terrorism (we're not through with them yet)
5. A democratic Iraq will sit in the center of a terror-loving community of Islamic states, so the U.S. can pressure them when Saudi Arabia gets its just desserts.
6. Iraq run by a weak mass murderer--easy to take down. Now we're sitting next to Iran and Pakistan, chief supporters of terrorism and spread of nuclear WMD
7. lots more stuff, but you get the idea . . .
| 515 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:17:52am |
@Thom: Are you some frat-boy who likes to indulge in name-calling? Free clue: Adressing someone with "bastard" does not fly well beyond the age of 23.
And yeah, I did cross-read now some of the earlier threads and apparently indeed some German twits also showed up here.
Though ieems to suit you quite well considering your own vocabulary, no?
| 516 |
zulubaby Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:18:12am |
Al Qaida is everywhere, and the only country fighting terrorism is the US while the Europeans sit on their hypocritical asses and point fingers at how bad the US is. Fucking idiots.
| 517 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:19:56am |
#508 j.e.
Biggie-sizing our response to 9-11 would have been turning the homeland of the bulk of the hijackers, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, as well as Pakistan, and Iran into a parking lot.
Obviously you can't conceive of how Americans feel about 9-11, no doubt due to an atrophied sense of right and wrong.
I sincerely hope the Germans don't have to learn the way we did.
| 518 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:22:21am |
You Germans seem to have trouble with the concept that there is more than one cause for the war in Iraq.
LOL. Yeah. But we're the unsophisticated, non-nuanced simpleton neanderthals compared to the oh-so-subtle Eurabians.
Riiight ...
| 519 |
Promethea Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:22:32am |
Also, you silly Germans on this thread . . .
Bush was as honest as he COULD be about this war. Do you think he could say "OK, Islamic fascists, we're going to take you down!"
No, I don't think so. That wouldn't be cool. So use your brains and THINK. If you were trying to defeat a huge threat by terrorists supported by crazy Islamic-run jihadist countries, how would YOU go about it?
Maybe you should play video games or chess or something to get yourselves in the mood for real-world fights. Also, check a map to see where all the failed-states are.
Keep in mind that WE PLAN TO WIN this war against Islamic fascism--no matter how long it takes. Don't kid yourselves. Either you are with us or you are against us. Sorry if you don't like to hear that, but that's the way it is.
| 520 |
Renna Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:23:18am |
now tell me the war in iraq was part of war against terror resulted of 9/11
The war in Iraq was/is part of the war against terror resulting from 9/11.
It was not about urgent WMD-threats, as we were told it was in so many fancy presentations.
Actual Bush SOTU quote
Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions
| 521 | dieter der deutsche Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:24:27am |
#507
that's fair.
Although the sick bastards infesting this thread are making me ill, I believe in giving credit where it's due:
@berliner: i think he didn't mean you
| 522 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:25:21am |
#515 Berliner
@Thom: Are you some frat-boy who likes to indulge in name-calling? Free clue: Adressing someone with "bastard" does not fly well beyond the age of 23.
Oh. My apologies. How about: FUCK OFF AND DIE?
And yeah, I did cross-read now some of the earlier threads and apparently indeed some German twits also showed up here.
Though ieems to suit you quite well considering your own vocabulary, no?
Apparently you missed/ignored my other posts above. Disingenuous twit.
| 523 |
Charles Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:25:50am |
The lacerating beauty of their arguments has caused me to soil myself. I am ashamed.
| 525 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:30:50am |
You Germans seem to have trouble with the concept that there is more than one cause for the war in Iraq. Here are several:
So why weren't you sitting in the UN security council back in February 2003 and giving all these reasons instead of Powell's odd WMD-video-presentation? You are apparently more honest than the Bush-administration was at the UN.
The main trouble in the long-run with all this is the undermining of the UN, or as Annan called it "the law of the jungle". There was/is a window post-cold war to finally bring the UN into somethign more effective, but this was lost for now.
I might even agree with the earlier American "Renna" - that the US is for now prolly the most gentle of all possible superpower-scenarios.
But - and that is something Americans won't understand - Americans won't always be top-dog and if we don't have an effectively working UN, then a weaker US will be some day on the receiving end of some larger bully. Not now or in the next few decades, but beyond that.
And I say "Americans won't understand", cuz ask the British or the Spanish during their peak, if they ever considered falling down. If you are on top, you are convinced it will stay forever this way.
Seeing Americas virtues of liberty, justice and democracy, it would be a smarter thing to bring those virtues into a powerful UN (even if it would mean at times compromise for the US), but instead Bush even decides to throw away many of these virtues even back home. (infringement of civil liberties like via Patriot Act, etc.)
| 526 |
David Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:31:31am |
Charles,
I'm sorry all these freak German Bush haters show up at your site...
We're trying to fight back by voting pro Bush.
Here's the instruction:
[Link: medienkritik.typepad.com...]
| 527 |
Charles Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:36:40am |
Dieter wrote:
Seeing Americas virtues of liberty, justice and democracy, it would be a smarter thing to bring those virtues into a powerful UN (even if it would mean at times compromise for the US), but instead Bush even decides to throw away many of these virtues even back home. (infringement of civil liberties like via Patriot Act, etc.)
Sadly, there are no integers on this scale, so your gangly adolescent attempt to be clever has proved futile.
| 528 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:37:53am |
So why weren't you sitting in the UN security council back in February 2003 and giving all these reasons instead of Powell's odd WMD-video-presentation? You are apparently more honest than the Bush-administration was at the UN.
Jesus H. Christ!! Have you read Security Council Resolution 1441?
A quote:
---
Deploring the fact that Iraq has not provided an accurate, full, final, and complete disclosure, as required by resolution 687 (1991), of all aspects of its programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles with a range greater than one hundred and fifty kilometres, and of all holdings of such weapons, their components and production facilities and locations, as well as all other nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to nuclear-weapons-usable material,
Deploring further that Iraq repeatedly obstructed immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to sites designated by the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), failed to cooperate fully and unconditionally with UNSCOM and IAEA weapons inspectors, as required by resolution 687 (1991), and ultimately ceased all cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA in 1998,
Deploring the absence, since December 1998, in Iraq of international monitoring, inspection, and verification, as required by relevant resolutions, of weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles, in spite of the Council’s repeated demands that Iraq provide immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC), established in resolution 1284 (1999) as the successor organization to UNSCOM, and the IAEA, and regretting the consequent prolonging of the crisis in the region and the suffering of the Iraqi people,
Deploring also that the Government of Iraq has failed to comply with its commitments pursuant to resolution 687 (1991) with regard to terrorism, pursuant to resolution 688 (1991) to end repression of its civilian population and to provide access by international humanitarian organizations to all those in need of assistance in Iraq, and pursuant to resolutions 686 (1991), 687 (1991), and 1284 (1999) to return or cooperate in accounting for Kuwaiti and third country nationals wrongfully detained by Iraq, or to return Kuwaiti property wrongfully seized by Iraq,
---
You are willfully ignorant.
| 529 |
Promethea Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:38:47am |
#525 Berliner . . .
My goodness! If there is only ONE thing that we learned regarding the war against Iraq, it's that the UN is a hopelessly corrupt organization under the control of crooks who were willing to let the poor Iraqis die under extreme torture so that the oh-so-sophisticated UN members could line their personal pockets.
If you think the UN has a big friend in the U.S. right now, you had better start rethinking this.
Sure the U.S. could decline in the future (and your schadenfreude is sure shining brightly here), but it won't be because the UN could have saved us. The UN has been exposed as the playground of the corrupt.
If you want to move it to Berlin, feel free. Just don't complain about all the parking tickets they don't pay.
| 530 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:40:04am |
#525 Berliner
But - and that is something Americans won't understand - Americans won't always be top-dog and if we don't have an effectively working UN, then a weaker US will be some day on the receiving end of some larger bully. Not now or in the next few decades, but beyond that.
Ah, sweet relief, someone actually has a point to make...
You are probably right, Berliner, we can't imagine a world where we aren't on top. But from where at least some of us stand, the UN will be the bully that lords over our decline. You see, we are our one worst enemy. If we go down it will be because we appeased our enemies and encouraged them to attack us like Clinton did with al Qaida.
Ask Israel, a democratic country with more scuples and decency than 98% of the countries in the world, what it feels like to be on the receiving end of the UN.
| 531 | dieter der deutsche Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:41:14am |
#527
Dieter wrote:Seeing Americas virtues of liberty, justice and democracy, it would be a smarter thing to bring those virtues into a powerful UN (even if it would mean at times compromise for the US), but instead Bush even decides to throw away many of these virtues even back home. (infringement of civil liberties like via Patriot Act, etc.)
Sadly, there are no integers on this scale, so your gangly adolescent attempt to be clever has proved futile.
hey, i didn't write that!
| 532 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:46:01am |
You are willfully ignorant.
Oh, Thom posts without any foul language. Shall we celebrate with a bottle of French champagne? *g*
Fact remains: 1441 did not directly authorize force AND additionally, the UN wanted back in March 2003 more time for weapon inspections. Bush cut short this process against the UN' wishes.
I am willing to grant you though that Saddam would have never cooperated as he did in early 2003 if it had not been for the US-Army massing up outside his gates.
But regardless: It was against the UN and the sheer time-argument ("We need to start war now, cause it's too expensive and hot to wait") is not a valid reason to rush to an invasion against the UN.
| 533 | Herr Unbekannt Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:47:33am |
The voting about Schröder o this page is good. It cut be the meaning in Germany at the momemt!
Der ist auch so´n Schnacker!:-)
| 534 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:49:20am |
True to trollish form, the dipshit moves the goal posts.
| 535 |
zulubaby Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:50:14am |
It was against the UN ...
Only the Europeans would pay attention to the most corrupt organization in the world. The UN should be dismantled, immediately.
| 536 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:51:19am |
#525 Berliner
Seeing Americas virtues of liberty, justice and democracy, it would be a smarter thing to bring those virtues into a powerful UN (even if it would mean at times compromise for the US), but instead Bush even decides to throw away many of these virtues even back home. (infringement of civil liberties like via Patriot Act, etc.)
I'll also concede a point that you haven't made yet (it's that helpful?) that the UN may well have been a monster of our own creation. On the bright side, the UN accomplishes almost nothing. On the downside it's a soapbox for every tinpot dictatorship and crooked regime. And I can't help but reiterate Promethea's excellent point about the Food for Oil Program. Oh wait, I forgot it's our fault children were starving in Iraq under Saddam.
Re the Patriot Act. The credit bureaus like Equifax and TRW have more incriminating evidence on me than John Ashcroft could ever come up with. Yawn.
| 537 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:04:15am |
You see, we are our one worst enemy. If we go down it will be because we appeased our enemies and encouraged them to attack us like Clinton did with al Qaida.
Well, this is actually the big question and one of the large differences today between US and Germany. Bush - and many Americans - believe they can win against terrorism by sheer bullying back.
This is a giant fallacy. Brute forces against terrorism will breed yet more terrorism. You don't win this way. Look at Israel today or how the approach in Northern Ireland changed over the decades.
You win against terrorism by being hard on those who are actual criminals, but at the same time, you must act with absolute justice and legal dealings, cuz any over-reaction will let "them" win and create more sympathizers.
Terrorist know they can not win militarly, so they strike in small single attacks to force the opponent to show the ugly face which they believe he has. And then they use this over-reaction by the enemy for propaganda to recruit more terrorists. Arab TV-stations endlessly repeat the pictures of killed Arab children, for example. And so on.
Bush actually reacts exactly how Osama wants him to react. You know...Pew Institute research and all that: Osama has become quite popular in Muslim countries because of Bush.
| 538 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:08:17am |
Sure the U.S. could decline in the future (and your schadenfreude is sure shining brightly here)
No Schadenfreude. I meant it when I said the US is the least harmful possibility of all superpowers. (I find the kind of occasional Schadenfreude over here on US-losses in Iraq actually quite disgusting)
And let's not forget: The founding principles of the US with justice-for-all, liberty, Free Speech and all that are quite desirable. Plus, there are plenty of Americans - even some Republicans - who disagree with Bush and don't view him as God's gift to the planet. So there is hope. :-)
| 539 | Herr Unbekannt Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:15:09am |
Mitbekommen?
Unsere amerikanischen Freunde sind wohl aufgeflogen. Da ich keinen Plan hab wie man einen Link macht schreib ich´s einfach hier rein:
www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/politik/0,1518,289615,00.h tml
| 540 |
Geepers Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:19:28am |
berliner (#537),
and one of the large differences today between US and Germany. Bush - and many Americans - believe they can win against terrorism by sheer bullying back.
And Germany seems to think that they can't win against terrorists. Yes there is a fundamental difference there.
Osama has become quite popular in Muslim countries because of Bush.
Yes, and he also cowers in a cave fearing for his life, most likely due to the mean ole US "bullying" him.
| 541 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:19:42am |
I'll also concede a point that you haven't made yet (it's that helpful?) that the UN may well have been a monster of our own creation.
Woodrow Wilson, God bless him! :-)
I can't understand the UN-phobia in the US. Not even the French seem as much hated as the UN *g*. Another reason for the giant perception gap between US and the rest of the world?
Surely today's UN is not what it could/should be, but it seems, the US is against any form of authority between them and...God?
Or would Americans be willing to accept some sort of higher authority someday? Of course one has to argue over what shape and form a good authority should have, but _something_ like the UN is surely needed.
| 542 |
piglet Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:21:00am |
is it really unrealistic to assume the bushadm. they make war against iraq because of getting oil and assist national oil-companies ???
Yes. Totally unrealistic.
1) Bush wouldn't help "the oil industry" he would help his own friends in the oil business. Oil production in Iraq was french german etc. Bombing all the wells in Iraq would make the value of American oil go up. When Iraq produces full oil output, it will cost bushes friends money in lost profits.
2) Most of the imported US oil comes from Venuzuela.
If we wanted to kill for oil, it would have been much easier to kill Chavez and take over that country then take Iraq.
3) Most of Europes oil comes from the middle east.
Unlike the US, Europe does not have a "national Oil reserve" salted away for emergencies. If the oil stops in the middle east europe literally freezes this winter.
4) Only advantage to the US of Iraq's oil coming back onto the international market is that we could then destroy every oil well in the Magic kindom without impacting on Europe, thus stopping saudi aid to terrorism. But if that is the plan, then Bush is not a
"luftmensch" but rather a ecellent chess player thinking many moves ahead.
On a personal note, have you seen any of my relatives?
Their last name ended in -stein. We have not heard from them since the early 1940's. :-(
| 543 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:25:24am |
537 Berliner
Bush - and many Americans - believe they can win against terrorism by sheer bullying back.
Do you have any kids? If someone was pushing him around a school yard and a bigger kid who felt sorry for him gave the bully a clout, what would your son think of you if you said, "Now little Helmut, that other boy was also wrong to bully the bully back." He'd think you were an idiot!
This is a giant fallacy. Brute forces against terrorism will breed yet more terrorism. You don't win this way. Look at Israel today or how the approach in Northern Ireland changed over the decades.
Please defend this ridiculous statement by pointing out one case where appeasing terrorists brought peace and reconciliation.
You win against terrorism by being hard on those who are actual criminals, but at the same time, you must act with absolute justice and legal dealings, cuz any over-reaction will let "them" win and create more sympathizers.
Either you are not articulating well or you are contradicting yourself. I agree with the "hard on the criminals" and am suspicious of "absolute justice and legal dealings" part. The legal model does not always deliver "absolute justice" much to the delight of cannibals and terrorists who are subject to German law
| 544 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:25:37am |
And Germany seems to think that they can't win against terrorists. Yes there is a fundamental difference there.
Germany had leftist terrorism. So my "theory" on how to drown out terrorism also worked for us, btw.
Yes, and he also cowers in a cave fearing for his life, most likely due to the mean ole US "bullying" him.
Osama had the life of a spoiled Saudi millionaire. Instead, he chose to fight for Allah and lived as a poor man in caves, hiding from his enemies who tried to kill him.
Now what sort of image will that provoke in a religious person and why should this allow us to gloat over it?
Saddam - a luxury dictator - in a hole was different than Osama in a cave.
| 545 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:25:49am |
Or would Americans be willing to accept some sort of higher authority someday?
He really doesn't get it ...
Of course one has to argue over what shape and form a good authority should have, but _something_ like the UN is surely needed.
Why?
The USA should leave the UN. It is perhaps the most ineffectualy and corrupt organization on earth. Then we should start over, with an organization of willing democracies (real democracies).
| 547 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:36:20am |
Please defend this ridiculous statement by pointing out one case where appeasing terrorists brought peace and reconciliation.
Well...Arafat won the Nobel Peace Price! Just kidding, just kidding! :-)
Actually Northern Ireland. The legal arm of the IRA sits in parliament there today and negotiations have been quite successful. (only a tiny group split off, "Real IRA", but the main sympathizer-base for open terrorism has been squashed.)
he legal model does not always deliver "absolute justice" much to the delight of cannibals and terrorists who are subject to German law
The terrorist-case is actually also a US-problem. One of the main witnesses, Bin Al-sibh, wasn't allowed to testify at court. The Washington Post had some quite fair articles on the legal problems of this case. Sorry that Germany has an independent legal system. :-)
And how is the case against the suspected 20th 9/11-pilot going in the US? Not so successful either, I take it? That is sometimes the price of democracy and a real legal system in contrast to a dictatorship: The bad guys might get off at times. Why wasn't Al Capone sentenced for his murders, but his tax-troubles instead?
OT, but anyways: The cannibal "only" killed in consent. Months before, he already tied another willing victim to the wall, who then changed his mind. The freak just tied him down and let him go - he didn't want to kill anyone against their will.
| 548 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:38:05am |
Germany had leftist terrorism. So my "theory" on how to drown out terrorism also worked for us, btw.
By what, giving what they wanted? Is your current government evidence of that?
As far as Osama's popularity...
(stage whisper) ...I don't think those people liked us very much to begin with!
| 549 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:41:34am |
The USA should leave the UN. It is perhaps the most ineffectualy and corrupt organization on earth. Then we should start over, with an organization of willing democracies (real democracies).
Aaaah, the US already does similar on others levels - making bi-lateral agreements instead of being an active member within a large organization. (ICC, trade-agreements, etc.). It seems to be a trend this way and a convinient way for the US to outplay countries against each other. (Good that we have the EU - will be harder to outplay a bloc of 400 million people)
So I have my doubts it would be an organization. And lemme guess how it would work:
US and UK get veto-rights, the rest doesn't? Or would the US be willing to allow their opinion be over-voted, as it can happen in democratic processes?
| 550 | j.e Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:44:17am |
UN ineffectually for whom ?
willing democracies (real democracies) what do you mean with this ? what are willing democracies for you thom?
| 551 |
Renna Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:47:11am |
This is a giant fallacy. Brute forces against terrorism will breed yet more terrorism. You don't win this way. Look at Israel today
Yes I will look at Israel. Everytime they crack down, terrorism goes down. When concessions are made or they otherwise appear weak, attacks go up.
| 552 |
Geepers Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:52:04am |
Berliner (#549),
Good that we have the EU - will be harder to outplay a bloc of 400 million people
Hey, how's that whole European Union constitution thing going anyhow? Have Germany and France figured out a way not to be "over-voted" yet?
| 553 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:54:32am |
547 Berliner
The IRA came to the bargaining table because the Brits kicked their asses 8 ways to Sunday, and maybe more importantly, they lost aid and comfort from the Irish Republic and under Reagan the US started getting serious about cutting off money and guns from misguided Irish-Americans. Their traditional demands were NOT met. Peace came about because of, not in spite of "bullying"
And how is the case against the suspected 20th 9/11-pilot going in the US? Not so successful either, I take it? That is sometimes the price of democracy and a real legal system in contrast to a dictatorship: The bad guys might get off at times. Why wasn't Al Capone sentenced for his murders, but his tax-troubles instead?
Precisely way Kerry's "criminal, not military" approach would be a disaster
OT, but anyways: The cannibal "only" killed in consent. Months before, he already tied another willing victim to the wall, who then changed his mind. The freak just tied him down and let him go - he didn't want to kill anyone against their will.
Yes Berliner, I'm aware of the circumstances of the case. It's comments like that that makes many of us in the US despair of Europe. It doesn't matter if the victim is willing, you ninny! This was a monsterous crime, and the sentence, to use zulubaby's mot juste was obscene.
I believe you are in goodwill Berliner, but your moral relativism makes for a sad and futile conversation. If that were my cup of tea, we've got this guy named Gordon who hangs around here...
| 554 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 12:04:20pm |
Another coffee break?
Well at least Charles seems to be enjoying himself...
| 555 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 12:05:11pm |
Hey, how's that whole European Union constitution thing going anyhow? Have Germany and France figured out a way not to be "over-voted" yet?
:-)
It's actually a bit the other way around: The smaller nations like Poland wanna make sure each of them can't be over-voted. Which isn't gonna work, cuz it'll end in dead-locks too often.
It's already not a "One man, one vote" under any possible scenario - Poland has much more influence than Germany or France compared to its population-size.
| 556 | El Diablo CD Mon, Mar 8, 2004 12:06:57pm |
by the way... "spiegel" is actually not a super-left-anti-bush news mag. yesterday they even posted an article about "flip-flop kerry" and linked the page where you can see the animation (guess u know it).
well i often visit the spiegel online page cos it gives quite neutral info, and i am NOT "left"..
..well but having this article of yours i wonder how rediculous and silly people can get. don't you see that such actions have the oposite effect? those bush-haters (and not only them) probably will be more angry about bush.. please think before doing for once ;-)
cya
EDCD
| 557 |
EW1(SG) Mon, Mar 8, 2004 12:14:52pm |
#541 Berliner:
Surely today's UN is not what it could/should be, but it seems, the US is against any form of authority between them and...God?
Most cogent thing you've said so far, and something to reflect on as it is the only accurate thing you've said.
| 558 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 12:20:01pm |
The IRA came to the bargaining table because the Brits kicked their asses 8 ways to Sunday, and maybe more importantly, they lost aid and comfort from the Irish Republic and under Reagan the US started getting serious about cutting off money and guns from misguided Irish-Americans.
Ah, interesting perspective.
As a sidenote, the other day, someone told me that Ghandi can't be seen as a successful model for peacefulness, because the British only sat down with him to negotiate cause they got tired of the endless bombings by radicals against them. Ghandi was promoted by them in an effort to keep their face and to divide the strong opposition.
I don't really see how IRA is squashed. They haven't really given up many of their weapons-caches and they still rule with an iron fist in their neighbourhoods. (Their internal justice-system as in breaking people's bones or crippling them for punishment is sadly still in effect - it's not like British law has found its way in there. Same goes for the radical Unionists)
Yes Berliner, I'm aware of the circumstances of the case. It's comments like that that makes many of us in the US despair of Europe. It doesn't matter if the victim is willing, you ninny!
Damn, we are so uncivilized over here, aren't we? Did you watch "Gladiator"? Those fearless fur-wearing Barbarians in the opening of the movie, who broke out of the woods to kick some Imperial butt, those were Germans! :-)
| 559 |
Thom Mon, Mar 8, 2004 12:22:58pm |
Good that we have the EU - will be harder to outplay a bloc of 400 million people
By G-d, they really do think that we're the bad guys. That had never really sunk in before now ...
| 560 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 12:26:23pm |
well i often visit the spiegel online page cos it gives quite neutral info, and i am NOT "left"..
SPIEGEL is leftist-leaning, but a quite equal-opportunity basher. (They currently also bite all the time into our socialist chancellor - when they are not busy Bush-bashing)
But "neutral" is the least likely word to be used for Spiegel. Being polemic and opinionated is Spiegel's trademark for decades. Not a bug, their feature.
And a tendency into trashy topics.
| 561 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 12:29:04pm |
By G-d, they really do think that we're the bad guys. That had never really sunk in before now ...
"Bad guys" is relative. Did you ever look at the rather protecionist US-economic policies? Free trade US-style often means free trade for US-companies, but protective measures against free imports.
And being a larger bloc of course means an advantage in dealing with a protectionist country. Harder to impose sanctions against the EU than against Holland, Germany or Spain alone.
| 562 | j.e Mon, Mar 8, 2004 12:29:18pm |
ok dear american friends its now 23.27 pm german time. time going to bed and have nice dreams.after all i wish you the same in a few hours.
bye and see you next time :-)
j.e
| 563 |
Renna Mon, Mar 8, 2004 12:29:40pm |
Even if there were no other forces fighting British rule but Ghandi's, Ghandi's method of peaceful resistance was used against the British. The British have a society where appealing to their sense of morality would work. That isn't as widespread as one would like.
| 564 |
papijoe Mon, Mar 8, 2004 12:30:42pm |
#558 Berliner
Damn, we are so uncivilized over here, aren't we? Did you watch "Gladiator"? Those fearless fur-wearing Barbarians in the opening of the movie, who broke out of the woods to kick some Imperial butt, those were Germans! :-)
Maybe The Thirteenth Warrior would be a better choice. In that one, the Germans win and the cannibals lose.
| 566 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 12:56:34pm |
The British have a society where appealing to their sense of morality would work. That isn't as widespread as one would like.
Well, peacefulness also was rather unsuccessful when Americans were unhappy with the colonial tax of their ruler King George III.
When huge financial profit is involved, appealing alone to a feeling of morality might not be working to change a negative Status Quo.
| 567 | The Editrix Mon, Mar 8, 2004 1:49:59pm |
This is a giant fallacy. Brute forces against terrorism will breed yet more terrorism. You don't win this way. Look at Israel today...
What are you smoking? Don't you watch the media? Every time Israel gets rough with the terrorists there is a period of relative peace until Israel gets soft again (mostly due to pressure from the international community). For everybody who rehashes that sort of crap I strongly recommend Alan Dershowitz' "Why Terrorism Works".
| 568 |
Charles Mon, Mar 8, 2004 2:19:36pm |
So my American friends! Your story has become tiresome. Why is it that the truly brilliant are doomed to a life of obscurity, surrounded by a sea of mediocrity, only to end up covered in sores in a pool of their own filth?
| 569 | Berliner Mon, Mar 8, 2004 2:29:29pm |
Every time Israel gets rough with the terrorists there is a period of relative peace until Israel gets soft again (mostly due to pressure from the international community). For everybody who rehashes that sort of crap I strongly recommend Alan Dershowitz' "Why Terrorism Works".
When was Israel soft under Sharon? And when was there a period of peace under Sharon?
Dershowitz' theory about not needing to adress the root of violence is nonsense: Of course you need to adress the root of anger, and the people of Palestine won't stop if they have the feeling they can't lead a normal life and feel they are subjected to injustice.
As I said before, Americans turned violent for trivial reasons like taxes against King George III. (Ever watch "The Patriot" with Mel Gibson playing an American during that time? Gibson even arms his own _child_ with a gun to fight the British)
It seems silly to suggest "Never adress the root of violence"
| 570 |
evariste Mon, Mar 8, 2004 3:05:17pm |
Charles, roflmao! Do they know how funny your mockery is? I hope so...oh my lord.
| 571 |
Charles Mon, Mar 8, 2004 3:17:18pm |
Alas, evariste! Our friends are limited. But they are beautiful, are they not?
| 572 |
freedom fries Mon, Mar 8, 2004 3:20:22pm |
yeehah - faking a vote!
pretty cool!
Lets roll!
oops, 61% voted for "6" ?!
what the...
| 574 |
evariste Mon, Mar 8, 2004 3:38:41pm |
LOL! So "Let's roll" is supposed to be insulting? Kind of like cowboy, eh? Yee-ha!
Keep insulting us with compliments, you wacky Yurpeans! We Murkins love Yurp!
| 575 |
freedom fries Mon, Mar 8, 2004 4:22:15pm |
Na, wir mögen euch doch auch.
Ihr seid einfach die Grössten, die Stärksten, die Allerbesten!!
Wir mögen auch Homer Simpson.
Nur Mr. Burns mögen wir halt nicht.
Ihr etwa?
| 576 |
andthenblammo! Mon, Mar 8, 2004 4:35:26pm |
The Germans are back!
| 577 |
evariste Mon, Mar 8, 2004 4:45:15pm |
Oh yeah?! Well here in America we're all Mr. Burns, hadn't you heard? We feel so much love for you sanctimonious Germans.
| 578 |
evariste Mon, Mar 8, 2004 4:46:57pm |
andthenblammo!, LOL!
I forgot to put in a Babelfish translation:
Well, we like you nevertheless also. You are simply the largest ones,
the strongest ones, the very best ones!! We like also Homer Simpson.
Only we do not like Mr. Burns stop. You about?
lgf: die Grössten, die Stärksten, die Allerbesten!
| 579 |
freedom fries Mon, Mar 8, 2004 4:51:54pm |
Aren't
these
the american patriots joining to fight the islamo-fascism (disguised as leftist Spiegel-Online Poll) ?
I heard the cats say "Bring 'em on".
By the way, I didnt know that so many americans read Spiegel Online. You are quite interested in liberal media, missed something on Fox News?
OK, need to sleep now, good night, and remember, Jesus loves you...sweet and tender.
| 580 |
andthenblammo! Mon, Mar 8, 2004 4:56:21pm |
#579 freedom deep-fried brains:
Hey, no copping my links for lame chitchat! Dig up your own goosestepping felines!
| 581 |
Ariel Mon, Mar 8, 2004 4:59:34pm |
Berliner #537,
This is a giant fallacy. Brute forces against terrorism will breed yet more terrorism. You don't win this way. Look at Israel today
Israel has not tried brute force. If it had, there wouldn't be 3K dead Jordyptians. There would be 3M.
If you believe that brute force doesn't quell terrorism, kindly explain:
1) Hama, where Assad (pere) murdered 20K folks who might have been involved in terrorism (or might not) but who happened to live in that town - and how there has not been anti-government terror in Syria to this day?
2) Jordan, where Hussein killed tens (or was it hundreds?) of thousands of Jordyptians who were Arafat backers and were fighting against him - and where Jordyptian anti-Jordanian government terror has not existed to this day, despite the country being over 70% Jordyptian?
3) European treatment of the Barbary Pirates vs. American treatment of them - and which one actually ended the Barbary Pirates?
4) Japanese quashing of the AUM Shinrikyo group after its sarin attack on the subway - and the lack of continued terror by other AUM members, some of whom I've seen firsthand handing out pamphlets in the Japanese subway in the last few years?
5) The UK and the US keeping sanctions on Libya after the Lockerbie bombing, Reagan sending a bomb a few steps from Qaddafi, and the subsequent lack of terror emanating from Libya?
Then consider the cases on the other side, where terrorism was appeased:
1) Did Germany's shameful behavior at the Munich Olympics end terrorism against Germany?
2) Is it the case that the Foreign Minister of Germany might well have ties to the Baader Meinhof gang - that his roommate might have been involved in giving shelter to Carlos the Jackal prior to CtJ's attack on the OPEC meeting in Vienna?
3) Did France fleeing from Algeria and appeasing Algerian terrorists stop the bombings in the French subways, which continued up until the 1990s - and one of which missed my cousin by one train?
I could go on and on. But if you refuse to read Why Terrorism Works, it's probably that you're treating this from a position of willful blindness.
Berliner #569,
When was Israel soft under Sharon? And when was there a period of peace under Sharon?
Sharon tried numerous unilateral cease-fires. I believe that the number was around seven. Even when the Jordyptians had their summer hudna and continued at a lower rate of murdering Jews (but who cares, only Jews, right Berliner?), Sharon pretended like the hudna was a real cease-fire until the Jordyptians made it obvious that it wasn't - by executing a successful attack. I emphasize the word "successful" because it turns out that the flow of Jordyptian attacks had only marginally slowed - but the lack of "success" (meaning killing Jews) was considered to be a sign of a new leaf being turned over by the Jordyptians.
During all of the unilateral cease-fires that Sharon imposed on the IDF, the Jordyptians only saw it as an opportunity to go a little bit further. One great example is the Karine A, which was stopped by Israel in the midst of one of Sharon's cease-fires.
There were periods of peace under Sharon immediately following major military operations. You can see this by going to the IDF's website and checking the number of attacks in the weeks following major operations, such as Operation Defensive Shield.
Berliner #541,
Surely today's UN is not what it could/should be, but it seems, the US is against any form of authority between them and...God?
When the UN was established, it was not supposed to be a form of authority above countries. You can see this quite readily by reading its charter. The UN was supposed to be a place where countries could debate their issues instead of resorting to war immediately.
The UN was not envisioned as a global government above national governments. Otherwise, it would have violated the US Constitution (and perhaps others as well) as well as some major UN ideals. Consider, for example, what self-determination (a right enshrined in the UDHR) would mean in the UN context. If the UN is a government above governments, how can any people be said to have self-determination? Ergo, the UDHR, approved by almost all UN members, precludes the possibility of the UN being considered a government-above-governments.
Finally, it is quite an understatement to say that the UN is not what it could/should be when it's been:
* the biggest sponsor and legitimizer of Jew-hatred since an Austrian chap ran your country, as demonstrated by the "Zionism is Racism" resolution, the obsessive focus on Israel (over 1/3 of all UN resolutions deal with Israel - more than any other country), the Durban conference, the UNRWA, UNIFIL's abetting the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, etc.
* quite corrupt, as demonstrated by the Oil for Palaces program, wherein it was widely known that Saddam overpaid for medications and underbilled for oil in order to bribe certain parties - never mind the billions that were kept in French banks
* dominated by kleptocratic despots, who wield a majority of the votes and can push certain appointments - like Syria being on the UNSC and Libya chairing the Human Rights Commissions - which are laughable - and can push agenda items that the UN should consider off of the agenda
| 582 | freedom fries (tired) Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:01:14pm |
Hint! Hint! Mr. Burns has similarities to Mr. Bush!
(Gosh, how pathetic. Don't forget, its the germans, who have no humour. You were supposed to have!)
| 583 |
evariste Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:05:02pm |
ROFLMAO. Pure genius! Could you be any more German?
| 584 |
RIP Ford Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:09:21pm |
#577 evariste
I remember there being an uproar when I was living in London. Something about Homer Simpson being based on Matt Groenig's father. Who happened to be Canadian.
| 586 | T.L. James Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:10:29pm |
It's important to keep in mind that the one thing the pissy Germans posting on this thread hate more than the US is Germany...or more specifically, their own "German-ness".
I know from the twenty-something Germans I hung out with when I lived there in 1995 (most of whom would today echo the sentiments of J.E. und seine gleichsinnige Freunden) that they are ashamed of the fact that they are Germans, and look to putative "European" or "world citizen" identities for escape from what they see as an irremediably spoiled national history. One of these friends actually lamented to me "What good have the Germans ever done for the world?", completely forgetting in his ethnic self-loathing the contributions of numerous German poets, scientists, philosophers, etc. to Western Civilization over the centuries.
Questioning the "moral authority" (snort) of the U.N. or stripping naked the ostensibly principled (but actually thoroughly corrupt and avaricious) opposition from the E.U. exposes the clay feet of the transnationalist organizations with which they have chosen to identify themselves. It triggers the mascot response.
| 587 |
evariste Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:18:46pm |
RIP Ford, interesting, I didn't know that. Anyway, there's not a whole lot of difference between, say, Michigan and Maine rednecks and Canadian ones besides beer of choice.
| 588 | T.L. James Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:33:48pm |
Careful with the Canadian comparisons, there, evariste...you don't want the Yooper Anti-Defamation Squadrons to swoop down from the Keweenaw and get all Finnish on your ass.
| 589 |
rumcrook Mon, Mar 8, 2004 5:59:23pm |
background on the "cannabil" berliner dismissis because of his morally relative outlook on life.
the canibal story, or as I like to call it-
hey Bernd, vatzz eating you?,
German Cannibal Trial Poses Tough Legal Questions
Ruth Elkins
Berlin
03 Dec 2003, 19:45 UTC
A man who killed another man and then ate his victim's flesh was put on trial for murder in Germany Wednesday. This bizarre case poses tough legal questions.
The defendant, Armin Meiwes, a 42-year-old computer expert, admitted killing Bernd Jürgen Brandes, an engineer from Berlin, whom he had met on an Internet chat room. The defendant claims Mr. Brandes answered his invitation to be murdered.Mr. Meiwes in March 2001 invited the victim to his sprawling country home where he stabbed him, cut up his body and ate it. Mr. Meiwes recorded the entire gruesome scene on video.
Federal prosecutors have charged Mr. Meiwes with "murder for sexual satisfaction." If convicted, he faces up to 15 years in jail.
But his lawyer wants a verdict of "killing by demand," arguing his victim wanted to be killed. That crime carries a five-year jail term. The lawyers also argue that cannibalism is not a crime under German law.
Mr. Meiwes, who psychiatrists say is sexually disturbed, says he now regrets the entire episode.
well thats swell he regrets murdering and canabilizing another human being, and with the state of concern for the saftey of society in the anything goes extreme liberal secular socialism practiced to a high form of suedo religion by the eurotrash the prosecutors and the defense team are quibling over whether he should serve 5 years or 15!!!
what the hell call it time served and let him go! if all he's gonna get for something this depraved is 5-15 why bother even sending him to jail. it looks like he learned his lesson anyway.
what a farce. a perfect example of a sociopathic threat to society and that society isnt willing to protect itself for even a 15 year minimum?? and ruth? the author of this article, titles it "TOUGH LEGAL QUESTIONS"??? WHAT TOUGH LEGAL QUESTIONS???
this guy is evil and a threat to society he should be locked up and the key thrown away. but they piddle and hand wring over the "tough" 15 year sentence for such a minor thing as murder and canabilism...
and we wonder why we cant get our "allies to support us in a moral and practical stance against terrorists and the thug regimes who sponsor them?
well we shouldnt, they see this stuff as piddling and inconsequential, not worthy of a tough stance because, it is piddling and inconsequential~~~ compared to the atrocities they are collectively resposible for during ww2!
hey if you murdered 6 million jews and made lampshades out of thier skin, whats a little canabilism after that...
| 590 |
rumcrook Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:25:24pm |
hey germans want to know whats in store for you and your country?
read this
| 591 | Albtraum Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:26:45pm |
Warum schiebt ihr schwanzlosen Nazis euch eigentlich nicht eure 45er Ersatzpenisse gegenseitig in den Arsch und drückt ab?
Das wäre ausnahmsweise mal eine vernünftige Verwendung von Waffen.
| 592 |
piglet Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:48:28pm |
#591 Albtraum
Shtup zikh nit vu men darf nit. :-)
| 593 |
superfly Mon, Mar 8, 2004 8:53:42pm |
#463 wer an gewalt said
no john germans learn about his history they learn that war don´t resolve problems. i remember that USA told us that this is the right way :-)
War got you guys out of France and Poland if I recall correctly. Or do you not think Germany invading these nations was a problem?
| 594 |
sauerkraut Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:24:43pm |
#544 Berliner
Germany had leftist terrorism. So my "theory" on how to drown out terrorism also worked for us, btw.
So the RAF terrorists were defeated by peaceful dialog? Give me a break. But maybe you think of the fact that Germany is now ruled by former RAF lawyers and sympathizers Gerhard Schröder, Otto Schily and Joschka Fischer. Maybe that is what Schröder's 'German Way' means.
#548 papijoe
By what, giving what they wanted? Is your current government evidence of that?
The actual terrorists are not too excited about that but indeed some of their former buddies made it to the top of the German government.
#586 T.L. James
"What good have the Germans ever done for the world?"
Even if this is obviously exaggerated, one could argue that the good that Germans have done is outweighed several times by the evils of the WWs and the Holocaust. At least it might be better to see the awkward aspects of being German than seeing no problem at all.
| 595 | name Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:49:55pm |
Does anyone care what america thinks about Germany?
No
Does anyone care what american people think about Germany?
No
So don´t waste your time on voting. Go and be scared about your life. But hey kill some people and you feel better. Rumsfeld and your präsident did so.
| 596 | j.e Mon, Mar 8, 2004 10:53:07pm |
#593 superfly
good morning at first from germany
War got you guys out of France and Poland if I recall correctly. Or do you not think Germany invading these nations was a problem?
dear superfly, i am born at 1976 so i am not a guy who invades france and poland. my father is US and served several years for US-army in germany . in spite of everything i feel like german and altercate with german history. the comparison between hitlers invasion and occupation of europe between Saddams threat against USA is ludicrous. sure, saddam killed parts of his own people, but there was another way possible to regulate this situation. and this is the main dissention between germans and americans!!! we all agreed with you saddam must go, but how (war) was not the right way. the present shows us all that´s true.
| 597 | waxdax Mon, Mar 8, 2004 11:42:20pm |
topical
1 90555 29.28%
2 5593 1.81%
3 3440 1.11%
4 4027 1.30%
5 21414 6.92%
6 184248 59.57%
you looose
| 599 | unwirsch Tue, Mar 9, 2004 1:34:22am |
I just wonder how much effort and time you spend on this shit. Don’t you guys have anything better to do than forging internet polls? How lame is that? I mean don’t you have to go to work or are most of you unemployed? Does nobody take you out for a meal or a drink? Instead you spend hours trying to organize some internet freeping which seemed to have backfired now.
And don’t come with WW2 again and again.
Fact is without the French you would be British now. Bonjour
Well you Americans still celebrate Thanksgiving which is nothing more or less than celebrating Genocide.
"[I]n 1637, 700 men, women and children of the Pequot Nation gathered for their annual Green Corn Ceremony in the area now known as Groton, Connecticut. While there, they were surrounded and attacked by mercenaries of the English and Dutch. Ordered out of the building, the Indians were shot as they exited. The rest were burned alive in the building. The next day, the governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony declared "a day of thanksgiving" praising God that they had killed over 700 men, women and children.
For the next 100 years, every "thanksgiving day" ordained by a Governor or President was to honor that victory."
Reference:
[Link: www.salsa.net...]
[Link: www.alternet.org...]
| 600 |
Smit Tue, Mar 9, 2004 1:51:56am |
#599 - Bless you unwirsch, for coming to tell us, oh so non-arrogantly that we have no life. That was an important contribution to the debate.
Then you said:
And don’t come with WW2 again and again
I think the Americans would be well within their rights, and morally justified never to help old Europe again. So the next time France/German fall prey to some foolish ideology beloved by your ruling class & millions end up dead for the good of the rest, please don't cry out to the US for help. This is not what you meant? Nevermind.
Fact is without the French you would be British now.
Cheers for the giggle.
"[I]n 1637... For the next 100 years, every "thanksgiving day" ordained by a Governor or President was to honor that victory."
So Thanksgiving has been "politically correct" since 1737.
What was your point again?
| 601 | waxdax Tue, Mar 9, 2004 2:05:39am |
topical:
1 100112 24.96%
2 5623 1.40%
3 3494 0.87%
4 6271 1.56%
5 30126 7.51%
6 255544 63.70%
C´mon John-Boys put down your burgers and clear your cookies.
If you are able to freek this poll you´ll get the next chance to destroy the culture a nation.
Hold on.
| 602 | Ed Moran:Abu anyone seen Tue, Mar 9, 2004 2:08:31am |
This is a giant fallacy. Brute forces against terrorism will breed yet more terrorism. You don't win this way. Look at Israel today or how the approach in Northern Ireland changed over the decades.You win against terrorism by being hard on those who are actual criminals, but at the same time, you must act with absolute justice and legal dealings, cuz any over-reaction will let "them" win and create more sympathizers.
Ya' know, that may work with people who have semi-reasonable goals. But what about a group whose goal is the ultimate triumph of the Islamic ummah throughout the world. How does Israel deal nicely with a group that still calls for expelling (or worse) all Jews from Israel.
Bill Clinton tried the "terrorism as criminal matter" method, and look where that got us.
| 603 | j.e Tue, Mar 9, 2004 2:44:45am |
[Link: www.intl-news.com...]
nice story about your beloved president
| 604 |
J.D. Tue, Mar 9, 2004 3:02:26am |
j.e. (#603)
You have a lot to learn.
...The thesis of both media liberals and political liberals is that there are vast millions of people who work hard all their lives and still remain poor. The next chorus of this song is that only the government can save the day for such people. The grand finale is that politicians need to take more money out of your paycheck to buy the votes of those to whom they give it. ......By focussing on those who work hard all their lives and still remain poor -- no more than 3 percent of the population -- and telling their personal stories endlessly, liberals can present the Big Lie with a human face.
There is an even bigger lie behind all this. That lie is the implication that the purpose of all this hand-wringing is to help the poor. But the poor are just the bait in a political bait-and-switch game.
The fraud becomes apparent the moment anyone suggests that there be means tests, so that the taxpayers' money will be spent only on the poor.
Those who pose as the biggest champions of the poor are almost invariably the biggest opponents of means tests. They want bigger government and the poor are just a means to that end.
Whether the issue is housing, medical care or innumerable other things, the argument will be made that the poor are unable to get some benefit that the government ought to provide for them. But the minute you accept that, the switch takes place and suddenly we are no longer talking about some benefit confined to the poor but about "universal health care" or "affordable housing" as a "right" for everyone. ...
| 605 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 3:16:35am |
#603 j.e
Now that's more like it! Danke for giving us something we can sink our teeth into.
The unemployed rate of January this year was 5.6%
The umemployment rate for Germany is currently around 11%. Schroeder dreams of having a recession like ours.
In reality, however, the U.S. has had four months of consecutive decline in the unemployment rate because so many formerly "unemployed" became too discouraged to keep seeking jobs and were eliminated from the unemployment statistics. The U.S. has over 5 million part-time job holders who want full time jobs but cannot find them. In addition, the U.S. has 8 million persons who have had to settle for full time jobs paying far less than their previous jobs. The "jobless recovery" and the widening income gaps are aggravated by massive migrations of good paying manufacturing and service jobs abroad.
This is all par for the course due to the collapse of the tech bubble. We are having the weirdest recession in living memory. In the tech sector, which I work in, it is a depression. In retail,construction, the trades and any sector related to the real estate market, things are fine, due to the low interest rates. Property values in my urban mill town home are rising. People flocked to the tech market because of the demand and high salaries who otherwise would have gravitated to other industries. Salaries and wages have decreased because they were inflated by the market. Many folks who where wise enough to save their money have retired early. There have been cuts to state and local services, but in the "blue state" (esp CA) the politicians went on a spending spree during the good times with other people's money.
What is hilarious about this article is this:
At Harvard Business School, thirty years ago, George Bush was a student of mine. I still vividly remember him. In my class, he declared that "people are poor because they are lazy." He was opposed to labor unions, social security, environmental protection, Medicare, and public schools. To him, the antitrust watch dog, the Federal Trade Commission, and the Securities Exchange Commission were unnecessary hindrances to "free market competition." To him, Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal was "socialism."
LOL! I've taken night school courses with Harvard profs, and that is NOT the way to get a good grade! While I don't agree with everything in the above statement, it shows that 30 years later Prof Tsurumi is still trying to give Dubya a bad grade!
If there was any doubt that Prof Tsurumi has a political ax to grind, there is the fact he brings in the big guns at the end of the article by quoting the renown financial analyst, Bill Moyers.
Thanks again for posting that.
| 607 |
Smit Tue, Mar 9, 2004 3:25:08am |
#603 - j.e from your link:
America's unemployment rate is 5.6%.
Germany's is 11-12%.
Not bad eh?
{Britain's is 4.9%, but I'm not boasting}
| 608 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 3:34:42am |
607 Smit
Wow! I always thought the UK had high unemployment. So much for anarchy in the UK! Need any salespeople over there?
| 609 | kümmerdichnichtdrum Tue, Mar 9, 2004 3:36:56am |
ich hab ihm eine 6 gegeben und die hat er mehr als verdient
| 610 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 3:37:12am |
j.e #596,
we all agreed with you saddam must go, but how (war) was not the right way.
So do tell us what exactly was the right way. And describe a similar situation wherein that way had been used.
| 611 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 3:42:59am |
unwirsch #599,
And don’t come with WW2 again and again.
Don't act like ungrateful bastards about WWII and the Cold War and perhaps we won't. You might have forgotten that there was this Cold War thing that happened, in which the US protected Germany from the Soviet tank divisions... perhaps they were only there to have some tea and crumpets with you lot in Munich? After all, we all know that East Germany emerged from the Cold War in a far superior position to West Germany after the Cold War... or did I get that backwards? Isn't that funny, that the section of Germany administered by the Germans - but which had been initially occupied by the Americans, French (theoretically), and British, ended up so much better off than that occupied by the Soviets? I wonder if it had anything to do with that whole Cold War thing? Hmm.
Fact is without the French you would be British now. Bonjour
Only if you have no knowledge of history. The French contribution to the Revolutionary War was a little more than moral support, but only a little more. There were exactly zero battles where it was desicive.
Well you Americans still celebrate Thanksgiving which is nothing more or less than celebrating Genocide.
At least that's been forgotten in the mists of time. If I were you, I wouldn't be so quick to boast.
| 612 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 3:52:17am |
#610 Ariel
I saw your post (#581) from last night when I got in this morning.
Your presence intimidates me to the point of humiliation. Brilliant!
| 613 | waxdax Tue, Mar 9, 2004 3:56:41am |
topical:
1 107737 22.78%
2 5629 1.19%
3 3504 0.74%
4 7808 1.65%
5 36969 7.82%
6 311228 65.82%
Ooops I did it again.
Burgers seem to make slowly.
| 614 |
Smit Tue, Mar 9, 2004 4:01:50am |
#608 papijoe - I'd swap passports with ya - if you're in the states!
| 615 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 4:06:49am |
614 Smit
Are you sure? I'm in Massachusetts. ;-)
| 616 |
Smit Tue, Mar 9, 2004 4:16:19am |
papijoe, heh, so you suffer under Kerry. I'm in London & we've got Red Ken (Livingstone) as mayor. Hell yeah I'd swap.
| 617 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 4:31:16am |
616 Smit
I did work briefly for a company out of Beaconsfield in their US office. Nice chaps, lousy business model. British companies seem to treat their employees better, but I think US companies are more competitive.
Where are the Germans? I noticed they disappear from time to time, nicking down to get a Big Mac on the sly?
| 618 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 4:32:57am |
papijoe #612,
LOL! Though I'm not really intimidating, as you'll see when we meet in person (...which I'm sure will happen eventually, seeing as how we're both residents of Taxachusetts).
But it is an advantage to having been in Model UN in high school and college and having believed in the UN - since I was a bit of an LLL - that I know the UN's charter and major documents fairly well.
| 619 |
Smit Tue, Mar 9, 2004 4:37:29am |
I think they disappeared between 3:00 - 3:30 German time. Kaffe break & time for some physical exercise before they leave work at 5 sharp.
/shameless stereotyping.
Apologies to any Germans offended.
Apologies for implying some Germans have no humour.
| 620 | j.e Tue, Mar 9, 2004 4:38:06am |
#607 smith
The unemployed rate of January this year was 5.6%, dipping only 0.1 percentage point. President Bush hailed it as the "unemployment declines for four months in a row.
it follows :
In reality, however, the U.S. has had four months of consecutive decline in the unemployment rate because so many formerly "unemployed" became too discouraged to keep seeking jobs and were eliminated from the unemployment statistics
in germany we have an adequate adage :
" Traue nur einer Statistik die du auch selbst gefälscht hast"
#610 ariel
whats about diplomacy ? Saddam destroyed over 100 missiles, he had contact to US-politicans and was ready to achieve all outstanding depits!! rumsfeld said : "not authentic"
Blix and some other US/GB-politicans said that iraq displayed no threat
in reality there was no reason occupy iraq
| 622 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 4:45:47am |
j.e #620,
In your initial post #596, you wrote:
we all agreed with you saddam must go, but how (war) was not the right way.
Now you are writing:
whats about diplomacy ? Saddam destroyed over 100 missiles, he had contact to US-politicans and was ready to achieve all outstanding depits!! rumsfeld said : "not authentic"
You are not speaking to the same issue as you were in #596. In that post, you were saying that Saddam had to go and implied that there was another way that he could be made to go without resorting to war. In #620, you begin to discuss his banned weapons, which had nothing to do with Saddam being made to give up sovereignity over Iraq. Furthermore, you provide no historical examples of diplomacy providing successes in terms of getting dictators to leave their country, assuming that that is the alternate path that you propose for getting rid of Saddam.
| 623 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 4:51:25am |
#620 j.e
How early is MacDonalds open over there?
Traue nur einer Statistik die du auch selbst gefälscht hast
Can't argue with that.
whats about diplomacy ? Saddam destroyed over 100 missiles, he had contact to US-politicans and was ready to achieve all outstanding depits!! rumsfeld said : "not authentic"
Links, j.e, links. When you make a statement, link something to back it up. Then we have something to talk about.
| 624 | waxdax Tue, Mar 9, 2004 4:58:39am |
for newbies :
1 = Bush has done a great job as President
...
6 = Bush has done a miserable job as President
topical:
1 112304 22.05%
2 5638 1.11%
3 3508 0.69%
4 8602 1.69%
5 40141 7.88%
6 339164 66.59%
What is McDonalds ? A type of culture ?
| 626 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 5:04:48am |
waxdax #624,
What is McDonalds ? A type of culture ?
And what are Germans? A cultured people?
Certainly not the naked folks I saw on the beaches of Ibiza, yelling at the top of their lungs to get served. They made Americans seem quiet and moderate.
| 627 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 5:12:14am |
#626 Ariel
I would never drink from headgear.
By seemingly embracing the cliches of the West, he is underscoring its excruciating banality.
| 628 | waxdax Tue, Mar 9, 2004 5:20:43am |
topical:
[Link: www.britannica.com...]
1 113976 21.88%
2 5640 1.08%
3 3510 0.67%
4 8902 1.71%
5 41047 7.88%
6 347915 66.78%
look here for culture papi :www.britannica.com...]>
ariel
briel
criel ask a german, not me
| 629 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 5:23:32am |
papijoe #627,
Of course. But to realize that, he'd have to have multiple brain cells that were interconnected.
| 632 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 5:34:08am |
(but who cares, only Jews, right Berliner?)
Ah, the Nazi-reference. Godwin's law known to you? You lost.
Your posting was a unique listing of one-sided views: "Jews are murdered", Sharon does "cease-fires" and - if at all - "military operations". "Operation Defense Shield" is mentioned, etc. How clean and noble.
The situation of the Palestinian people on the other hand is left blank, the word "terrorism" the only word for them. Not one word about their deaths, their living situation, their infrastructure destruction, the growing settlements all around them, etc.
No word about the debate even within Israel, about soldiers not wanting to participate in certain actions against Palestininians, etc.
Again: One has to adress roots of a problem. Imagine Americans living like Palestininians. Only an iron hammer would get you nowhere. Look at King George III. and the American violent uprise against his colonial taxes - why didn't Americans protest only peacefully back then?
"Terrorism" or word-games like "anti-"xxx are anyhow often only empty PR-shells. If one plants bombs for the right side, he is a freedom fighter or resistance fighter (Even Osama for us Westerners, as long he bombed against the Russians or the French resistance bombing against the Nazis, etc.), but if one plants bombs for the wrong side, he is a terrorist. "Terrorist" or "cowardish" actions are often used, when a smaller enemy fights against a larger.
And while suicide-bombings are a vicious, criminal and despicable act (also culturally unknown to us - like those of the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka), does it justify surpressing of a whole nation and most of all, will supression work in the long run to achieve safety and no more constant paranoia and alertness?
| 633 | waxdax Tue, Mar 9, 2004 5:34:23am |
topical:
1 114831 21.77%
2 5645 1.07%
3 3510 0.67%
4 9090 1.72%
5 41526 7.87%
6 352759 66.89%
no comments ?
___
no papi, wrong.
| 634 |
Charles Tue, Mar 9, 2004 5:39:27am |
I must admit I'm getting a huge kick out of seeing the German left frantically stuffing the poll box at Spiegel Online.
| 635 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 5:41:57am |
So the RAF terrorists were defeated by peaceful dialog? Give me a break. But maybe you think of the fact that Germany is now ruled by former RAF lawyers and sympathizers
So you're German? Where have you been in the 70s? Didn't you read any other newspaper than tabloid BILD or still played in Kindergarten back then?
Of course there were countless wide and open discussions about exactly those radical thought-processes back then, which added to a breaking away of the sympathizer base for the terrorists.
Terrorists don't simply drop from the sky or are born that way, they only grow and prosper in a certain supporting enviroment and one needs to isolate them from any sympathizers. It's very much about winning a PR-war. (The Pew Insitute research said Osama has hundreds of millions of Sympathizers in Muslim countries like Indonesia - scary, uh? Something we need to change - or you suggest to kill them all?)
And I don't understand your line "former RAF lawyer" against Schily. Do you mean that this makes him a terrorist-sympathizer? Americans here recommended to me a book by Alan Dershowitz - didn't this guy work as a lawyer for murderers? Does this make Dershowitz a murderer-sympathizer? No. If you critizise someone defendings criminals, you need to learn about a justice system.
| 636 |
Smit Tue, Mar 9, 2004 5:44:34am |
waxdax
Do you think Gerhard Schroeder has done a good job as Chancellor of Germany?
1. No
91.8%
2. Yes
8.2%
Comments?
===
#632 Berliner - Hitler was mentioned in post #355 which was some time before you came to grace us with your presence. Godwin that.
| 637 |
J.D. Tue, Mar 9, 2004 5:46:09am |
Charles
That's what I was just thinking.
wingding waxdax is eaten up with 'winning'. I guess we shouldn't laugh, when at least they're doing something.
| 638 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 5:47:26am |
btw: I voted "No" on your poll about Schröder.
Actually, the only good thing the guy ever did was to not follow the argumentation line of "There is an urgent threat from WMDs" and to say No to Iraq.
He is a lousy Chancellor else. In almost every respect.
FYI: Spiegel has now a new meta-article on the latest developments of the poll, which can be read here.
Two polls along with it, one about "Votes in Online-journalism, yes or no?" and another poll about "How shall manipulations in Online-voting be handled?" - A. correct any manipulations, B. allow them but point them out, C. cancel all online-votes. etc.
| 639 |
Geepers Tue, Mar 9, 2004 5:53:21am |
Berliner (#632),
Imagine Americans living like Palestininians.
That's about the funniest thing I've ever read.
| 640 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:00:54am |
Again: One has to adress roots of a problem. Imagine Americans living like Palestininians. Only an iron hammer would get you nowhere. Look at King George III. and the American violent uprise against his colonial taxes - why didn't Americans protest only peacefully back then?
Root causes, huh? This is a big misunderstanding about the American Revolution. It's not that we were oppressed by the British and strove to be free. Americans were already free, and resisted the attempts of the British to levy taxes and otherwise control them.
One part of the analogy holds up: "Palestinians" like Americans, were not the original inhabitants
"Terrorism" or word-games like "anti-"xxx are anyhow often only empty PR-shells. If one plants bombs for the right side, he is a freedom fighter or resistance fighter (Even Osama for us Westerners, as long he bombed against the Russians or the French resistance bombing against the Nazis, etc.), but if one plants bombs for the wrong side, he is a terrorist. "Terrorist" or "cowardish" actions are often used, when a smaller enemy fights against a larger.
Wrong Berliner. You can't equate packing explosive with shrapnel and rat poison and getting on a civilian bus with women and children with ANYTHING Israel has done. Americans with no dog in this fight sense that instinctively and that's why there is so much support for Israel in this country. Shame on you.
And while suicide-bombings are a vicious, criminal and despicable act (also culturally unknown to us - like those of the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka), does it justify surpressing of a whole nation and most of all, will supression work in the long run to achieve safety and no more constant paranoia and alertness?
"Palestine" is not a nation and never was. The Arab states keep them in limbo to use against Israel. None of the Arab states will take them is because they are ungovernable (look what happened in Jordan and Syrian), and yet they want Israel to give them a state on their borders? Please do some research on the history of Israel and come back when you are informed
| 641 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:01:22am |
That's about the funniest thing I've ever read.
And why would that be? Cause you are somehow God-chosen to be born in America?
And Africans are chosen to be born into poverty and civil-war and Palestinians are chosen to be born into their own unique desperate situation?
A little less arrogance perhaps - if you believe in rebirth, you might be reborn just where life won't be so easy as it is now for you. You - or me, for that matter - are no better than anyone else in other countries and it's just a matter of luck that we have the privileges we have today.
| 642 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:03:49am |
Berliner #632,
Ah, the Nazi-reference. Godwin's law known to you? You lost.
Actually, that wasn't so much a Nazi reference as it was a notation of your complete indifference to Jewish suffering and death. But I wouldn't have expected you to pick up on that.
Also, quite interesting that you ignored almost all of my post.
Your posting was a unique listing of one-sided views: "Jews are murdered", Sharon does "cease-fires" and - if at all - "military operations". "Operation Defense Shield" is mentioned, etc. How clean and noble.
Well, I'm afraid that it's a fair picture of what actually happened. Sharon did do cease-fires - the historical record is quite unequivocal about that. And instead of discussing whether I'm portraying the Israelis in a noble light (and being unfair to those poor, oppressed Jordyptians who chose to go to war), why don't you manage to respond to the actual facts - which contravene your point - and demonstrate that Sharon was willing to try some pretty crazy things for peace? And that he got only more war in return?
Instead of discussing my diction, why don't you discuss the facts?
The situation of the Palestinian people on the other hand is left blank, the word "terrorism" the only word for them. Not one word about their deaths, their living situation, their infrastructure destruction, the growing settlements all around them, etc.
Well, if you'd like I can put plenty of words for them as well. It's pretty horrible that they had a corrupt, autocratic dictatorship foisted on them by the US and Europe. It's pretty horrible that that dictatorship seems to run out of money to pay its civil servants - who are paid a pittance anyway - while never lacking money for bombs and guns. It's pretty horrible that that dictatorship executes collaborators, often without a judge, jury, or even a trial. It's pretty horrible that that dictatorship has changed the makeup of Bethlehem from majority Christian to less than 15% Christian in only a decade by relentlessly attacking, raping, and extracting protection money from its Christian minority for a decade. It's pretty horrible that that dictatorship has debates about whether the proper way to execute a homosexual is to drop a wall on them or to bury them in shit up to their neck and bash their head in with a rock.
As to their situation as a result of the war they chose, I'm afraid that no, I can't see it as the result of Israel's actions. If the Jordyptians hadn't chosen war, they probably would not be feeling the adverse affects of the war.
Or do you believe that the Jews should not be able to defend themselves?
No word about the debate even within Israel, about soldiers not wanting to participate in certain actions against Palestininians, etc.
Again, that wasn't the subject of the discussion. You can change the subject as much as you want, but why don't you first try answering the initial subject.
If you'd like, I'll answer this too: Isn't it interesting how there's a plurality of views on the Israeli side? We have Gush Shalom, or Peace Now. Now where is the Jordyptian Peace Now organization? Where are the Jordyptians calling for peace and refusing to explode on Israeli buses? Oh, that's right - they're dead, executed by Arafat's goons.
Well, I guess you should still support the Jordyptians despite the lack of plurality in their views: after all, they're killing Jews.
Again: One has to adress roots of a problem. Imagine Americans living like Palestininians. Only an iron hammer would get you nowhere. Look at King George III. and the American violent uprise against his colonial taxes - why didn't Americans protest only peacefully back then?
And you know what? If the Revolutionary War had gone the other way, you wouldn't see Americans whining about it for generations. We would have tried to do what we could to better our situation.
The root cause of the problem, incidentally, is not poverty, if the problem is terrorism. You can see that here or here. The root cause of the problem is that the Jordyptians chose to go to war and have not been convinced that the war won't be what serves them best.
Incidentally, the American Revolutionary War is hardly the best analogy here. Do you recall the Brits offering the US to have the entirety of the English colonies in North America and half of London? Neither do I. I'd venture that had they done so, the American colonists would have taken them up on the offer.
"Terrorism" or word-games like "anti-"xxx are anyhow often only empty PR-shells. If one plants bombs for the right side, he is a freedom fighter or resistance fighter (Even Osama for us Westerners, as long he bombed against the Russians or the French resistance bombing against the Nazis, etc.), but if one plants bombs for the wrong side, he is a terrorist. "Terrorist" or "cowardish" actions are often used, when a smaller enemy fights against a larger.
Wrong. Terrorism is not just a word that has no value, despite what Chomsky teaches. Terrorism means deliberately targeting civilians, which, as you can see here is something that Jordyptians engage in, not the Israelis. Terrorism does not just mean "violence by the bad guys" or else we could have called any of the following terrorism: Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, Morocco's taking of the Isla de Perejil, the Chinese attack on India, or Japan's invasion of Manchuria. There's a good reason why none of those were called terrorism.
And while suicide-bombings are a vicious, criminal and despicable act (also culturally unknown to us - like those of the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka), does it justify surpressing of a whole nation and most of all, will supression work in the long run to achieve safety and no more constant paranoia and alertness?
Genocide bombings are not a criminal act. They are an act of war. The groups which foment the genocide bombings are not trying to murder an occasional person, they are trying to destroy a nation. You can see this by reading the Hamas charter, the PLO charter, and so forth. Or read any of their statements. What exactly about a foreign element coming into a country, with the connivance of its "government", and murdering the citizens of the country does not qualify, to you, as an act of war?
And if the Jordyptians had not chosen to go down the path of war, there can be no doubt that they would not have been suppressed, even granting that they have been. Many Jordyptians are still allowed to work in Israel and Israel still provides them with electricity and water. That's hardly "suppression".
Will it work? "Suppression", as shown by Operation Defensive Shield and the various other sweeps in Jordyptian controlled territories, does manage to slow down the flow of terrorism. Meanwhile, appeasement, as shown by the unilateral cease-fires declared by Sharon, has been shown to increase the flow of terrorism. If we are really concerned about the consequences for Israel (which only one of us is), then we would be able to objectively consider the consequences of each course of action.
| 643 |
superfly Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:05:29am |
#596 j.e
I made no such comparison first of all, but if you want me to I have no problem with that. Whats his name said
no john germans learn about his history they learn that war don´t resolve problems. i remember that USA told us that this is the right way :-)
That is an idotic statement. War resolves a lot of things. War got the Germans out of France twice in the twentieth century. War got the U.S. its freedom from the British empire. War ended slavery in the U.S.. War toppled Saddam's regime. War got Iraq out of Kuwait in the first gulf war. War resolves lots of stuff, especially if the good guys win.
The U.S. never told Germany that was "the right way". Germany learned the wrong lessons from WWII. The U.S. learned when you see a psychopathic, genocidal dictator who wants to take over the a large portion of the world, you hit fast and hard and as soon as possible before he has a chance to further extend his power and start an even bigger war.
The Germans learned war is bad and nothing is worth fighting for.
How long would you have waited for Saddam to comply with the resolutions? Indefinitely? Until he succeeded in getting a nuclear weapon? How many Iraqis would you have let go through feet first through plastic shredders while your nation sat on its hands and did nothing to help? How many little girls would you let Saddam's henchmen rape while UN endlessly debated? How many UN security council resolutions demanding Iraqi compliance would you require before the U.S. acted? 20? 35? 100? How long would you let evil rule and not lift a finger to stop it?
Germany had a chance to at least partly repent from its earlier history and it blew it.
| 644 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:07:08am |
Charles, I think you've done more to promote democracy in Germany than anyone since Gen Marshall!
| 645 | waxdax Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:08:51am |
for charly:
1 117451 21.33%
2 5657 1.03%
3 3514 0.64%
4 9736 1.77%
5 43424 7.89%
6 370794 67.35%
smit, thank you; comment: realistic without freaking.
once again for you: I´m not German
| 647 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:13:24am |
Isn't it interesting that our friends here seem to believe that all war is bad, except when it's waged by the Jordyptians?
| 648 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:14:21am |
Wrong Berliner. You can't equate packing explosive with shrapnel and rat poison and getting on a civilian bus with women and children with ANYTHING Israel has done. Americans with no dog in this fight sense that instinctively and that's why there is so much support for Israel in this country. Shame on you.
It's not just the methods for you - against which I am just as appalled as you are. You don't think they are justified at all. As if you would sound different, would they be using other targets.
I think my theory is right: If the violence comes from the right sources, then it is legit. If not, it is terrorism.. See how Osama received training at one point from the US.
A palestinian child killed in an Israeli defense operation is never murder, but always only "collateral damage" for you, right? (Or, as somebody in a Freeper-Forum once horrible wrote: "A Palestinian child is a growing bomb" - ouch, say a lot about the mindset)
"Palestine" is not a nation and never was.
If you categorically deny Palestinians the right to a nation, then you are another one those radicals, even many Israelis do acknowledge that. (Like there are also radicals on the other side, trying to deny Israel its legitimate right to exist).
| 649 |
zulubaby Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:23:25am |
A palestinian child killed in an Israeli defense operation is never murder, but always only "collateral damage" for you, right?
Disgusting thought process you have there.
| 650 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:27:36am |
641 Berliner
it's just a matter of luck that we have the privileges we have today.
Maybe in the sense that you were born into a culture that learned to subsist and then prosper in a land with a short growing season, which required discipline, cooperation and ingenuity (oh, and also the ability to defend themselves) Americans have learned the hard way that the poor aren't help by giving them a culture of victimization and entitlement.
My wife was born into poverty. Her mother grew up in a mud and cane hut with a thatched roof. By the time she was 21 she was making more money than the president of her South American country. She didn't need the help of any NGO, she had the right values.
Societies whose members take responsibility for themselves prosper. Those that don't, fail.
| 651 |
John Gibbon Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:31:57am |
Berliner
See how Osama received training at one point from the US.
NOT True...I'd like to see proof from something other than a .org!
A palestinian child killed in an Israeli defense operation is never murder, but always only "collateral damage" for you, right?
No, its terrible and you wouldn't know what it is like to fight a war in an urban populated area. DON'T assume what I think!
Who is the arrogant ass? You really are presenting the worst side of your culture now.
| 652 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:33:16am |
Berliner #648,
I've already addressed the first half of your post.
If you categorically deny Palestinians the right to a nation, then you are another one those radicals, even many Israelis do acknowledge that.
Actually, what papijoe writes does not deny them a nation. He merely stated that they do not currently have a nation nor have they historically ever had a nation.
(Like there are also radicals on the other side, trying to deny Israel its legitimate right to exist).
Instead of mindlessly repeating that there are "radicals" who believe this, why don't you try to find us a Jordyptian who doesn't believe this? I'd say it's a rather mainstream belief in Arafatistan that Israel doesn't have a right to exist. Otherwise, why would Arafat have said that Judea, Samaria, and Gaza were not enough unless Israel gave in on the demand of return for the "refugees", as he did to Barak in 2000? And why did the Jordyptians support him in that war, if it was not mainstream belief of theirs?
| 653 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:36:10am |
Berliner #648,
Actually, I did forget to address one point:
A palestinian child killed in an Israeli defense operation is never murder, but always only "collateral damage" for you, right?
No, it's terrible that the Jordyptians refuse to separate their military forces from their civilians, as required by the Fourth Geneva Convention. If they were to abide by the laws of war, which would also require them not to target civilians, then this wouldn't be nearly the problem that it is under the current situation.
| 654 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:38:12am |
648 Berliner
If you categorically deny Palestinians the right to a nation, then you are another one those radicals, even many Israelis do acknowledge that. (Like there are also radicals on the other side, trying to deny Israel its legitimate right to exist).
Please make a case for that statement, instead of foisting your a priori condition that "Palestinians" deserve a state on me. Am I a radical for basing my belief on facts? By the way, until I educated myself on the issue, I had no bias toward either Israel or the "Palestinians"
| 655 |
superfly Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:39:46am |
#648 Berliner
See how Osama received training at one point from the US.
That's right Berliner. Osama receiving training on how to kill invading Soviet soldiers who were slaughtering unarmed women and children is the moral equivalent of blowing up a bus full of women and children with explosives laced with rat poison.
Terrorism is terrorism when it intentionally targets unarmed civilians no matter the cause. Have you heard of John Brown Berliner? He was an american who opposed slavery shortly before the civil war here. He slaughtered unarmed civilians to advance his cause and was later executed. I think he was a terrorist. I also think his cause was just. How can this be? I can think of other examples if you want me to, but first I would like you to explain this raging intellectyal discord for me.
| 656 |
Geepers Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:39:59am |
Berliner (#641),
And why would that be? Cause you are somehow God-chosen to be born in America?
No, it's got nothing to do with where God chose for me to be born, it's all about attitude. We Americans didn't cry in our beer over 9/11. We didn't sit around asking "Why do they hate us." We rebuilt the Pentagon in one year. The Reconstruction of the World Trade Center is already underway. Get it?
And Africans are chosen to be born into poverty and civil-war and Palestinians are chosen to be born into their own unique desperate situation?
No, Africans chose to believe that raping virgins will cure AIDS, palestinians chose to devote themselves to the destruction of Israel. (Read the The Palestinian National Charter to see what the palestinians have chosen to do with their lives.)
A little less arrogance perhaps - if you believe in rebirth, you might be reborn just where life won't be so easy as it is now for you.
Americans have it easy through hard work. It ain't bragging if you can back it up.
You - or me, for that matter - are no better than anyone else in other countries and it's just a matter of luck that we have the privileges we have today.
Speak for yourself when claiming not to be "better" than anyone else. And "luck" has nothing to do with it.
Swap the 2.5 million in the West Bank for Americans, and I can guarantee you that we wouldn't be sitting around blaming Israel, but would build, better, and excel. And in twenty years everyone in the middle east (and Germany presumably) would be pissing and moaning about how arrogant we are for succeeding, and how unfair it is that we've got it so 'easy' in the West Bank.
| 657 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:42:23am |
#642And you know what? If the Revolutionary War had gone the other way, you wouldn't see Americans whining about it for generations. We would have tried to do what we could to better our situation.
We won't agree on Israel (and I do view Israel as trying to keep Palestine small, e.g. its infra-structure etc.), as you even only adress them as "Jordygyptians" (new word for me) instead of Palestinians.
But that is one of hats Arafat has to wear indeed. Arafat himself deliberately wasted any opportunities to make the best out of the situation, but instead views himself forever as the leader of oppressed people and would apparently like to have it stay that way. Hardliners on both sides of the fence sadly play into each othr's hands.
As I IMO said: Both Arafat and Sharon have no real interest in solving the situation, unless the other side would majorly give in.
Wrong. Terrorism is not just a word that has no value, despite what Chomsky teaches. Terrorism means deliberately targeting civilians, which, as you can see here is something that Jordyptians engage in, not the Israelis.
re: Chomsky: :-) I am too transparent, ain't I? Language is indeed an interesting form of manipulation and I had to swallow a number of times in the last 2 days reading through Freeper-forums.
How do you view the mass-bombings on civilians in WWII? From Hitler's beginning with bombing Coventry all the way to Bomber-Harris firestorm of Dresden, at a time when the war was almost done? It would fit your definition: Terrorizing civilians in order to break the order of the nation.
| 658 |
John Gibbon Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:52:14am |
Beliner,
How do you view the mass-bombings on civilians in WWII? From Hitler's beginning with bombing Coventry all the way to Bomber-Harris firestorm of Dresden, at a time when the war was almost done?
You forgot Hamburg and Tokyo (which was worse than Dresden, by the way) Might as well add Hiroshima and Nagasaki which were not quite as bad as Tokyo.
WHY? Because NOBODY was surrendering yet!
This book will turn a few heads in Germany, enough of the revisionist history of Dresden:
| 659 |
superfly Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:52:43am |
#651 John Gibbon
Osama might have received aid or training from the U.S. at some point during the soviet invasion of Afganistan. At the time he was a fairly minor player and no one realized how dangerous he could become and he did not show up till the fighting against the Soviets was mostly done. At the time he was not sponsoring terrorism.
"Charlie Wilson's War" is probably the best researched book I have seen on the subject of what America did then in Afganistan and the author argues that we probably did help him fight the soviets since we were trying to help as many people as possible.
| 660 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:57:11am |
No, its terrible and you wouldn't know what it is like to fight a war in an urban populated area. DON'T assume what I think!
I actually live in a city which still has today many bullet-holes from urban fighting of WWII visible in buildings.
Perhaps I was unjust towards YOU, but my (admittingly generalizing) remark came from observing the last couple days in many conservative/ e.g. Freeper-forums, which left me rather stunned at the light-heartedness at which violence is adocated as long as it goes somewhere in a right direction.
You know...people writing nasty stuff not only in direction of Muslim countries, but also things like "Alright, I have had it. When do we begin bombing France or Germany?" or "To all Germans: The word 'Freeper' is in German a reminder of the bombing of Dresden".
Perhaps I am now the humourless German, but I find cracking jokes over bloodshed or advocating rather blind use of force rather disgusting, regardless whether the killed ones were Arabs, Israelis, Germans or Americans.
Quite shocked over the gun-toting, militaristic voices I've found. A bit like in Europe before WWI, when decisive military action was last seen here as something to take big pride in.
| 661 |
John Gibbon Tue, Mar 9, 2004 6:58:50am |
#659 Superfly,
I realize that he may have been in a group of warlords that received monies from the US.
But to say we actually trained him to do what he is doing today is wrong to say.
And again, a different era. We also trained Robert E. Lee at our own Military Academy and he led two invasions North into Maryland and Pennsylvania!
| 662 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 7:04:18am |
This book will turn a few heads in Germany, enough of the revisionist history of Dresden:
Single books are always something difficult, cuz you need to research the author before anything lese. :-)
I rely more on relatively neutral sources like Wikipedia, where opinions from all sides may flow into, to achieve a somewhat less biased picture
| 663 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 7:05:11am |
Berliner #657,
Do you care to address the numerous other points I made in #642?
We won't agree on Israel (and I do view Israel as trying to keep Palestine small, e.g. its infra-structure etc.), as you even only adress them as "Jordygyptians" (new word for me) instead of Palestinians.
Jordyptian from Jordanian and Egyptian, the two main sources of the "Palestinian" people. As you would know if you bothered to study history (which is all just a construction anyway, right Mr. Chomsky?), before 1948, it was the Jews who called themselves Palestinians. It was only after Arafat became head of the PLO in 1964 (three years before the 1967 war in which Israel was attacked and claimed Judea, Samaria, and Gaza from the Jordanians and Egyptians - I wonder if that tells you anything about the PLO's intentions?) that they began to try to steal the appelation "Palestinian", in order to appeal to Europeans as the more "indigenous" or "aboriginal" people of the region. As you clearly demonstrate, their carefully calibrated choice manages to confuse folks who don't choose to learn the history, which requires a little bit of work.
If Israel was trying to "keep Palestine small", why exactly do they provide jobs (or electricity, or water, or money) for the Jordyptians, even after all of the genocide bombings?
But that is one of hats Arafat has to wear indeed. Arafat himself deliberately wasted any opportunities to make the best out of the situation, but instead views himself forever as the leader of oppressed people and would apparently like to have it stay that way. Hardliners on both sides of the fence sadly play into each othr's hands.
Now that's a really interesting statement. Arafat chose to go to war... therefore "Hardliners on both sides" "play into each othr's [sic] hands"? I'll note that the "hardliner" at the time was Barak, who believed in giving up Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, and half of Jerusalem.
So how exactly where they playing into each other's hands, given that the "hardliner" Sharon had not even been elected?
Why is it that you can't foist the blame for starting the war on the party that chose to go to war? Is it really that hard to do?
As I IMO said: Both Arafat and Sharon have no real interest in solving the situation, unless the other side would majorly give in.
There's simply no evidence that Arafat considers a solution to be anything less than the dismantlement of Israel. He demonstrated this in his interview with Oriana Falacci, where he said that when he speaks of peace, he means the peace of the grave.
Sharon has tried to make solutions happen, despite what you write. Again, despite your historical ignorance, Sharon tried a fair number of unilateral cease-fires, in the hopes of trying to cool down the leve of violence. Sharon played along with the hudna, even though it was not what Arafat's gang had signed up for in the Road Map. And Sharon even implemented some parts of the Road map, despite Jordyptian non-compliance. These are the facts and it would be really nice if your next post actually addressed the facts instead of mindlessly repeating the same tropes and assuming that it's a matter of a disagreement of opinion.
re: Chomsky: :-) I am too transparent, ain't I? Language is indeed an interesting form of manipulation and I had to swallow a number of times in the last 2 days reading through Freeper-forums.
Of course, you are quite transparent. Instead of addressing issues, facts, and history, you want to discuss my bias, as demonstrated by the language I choose. Of course I have a bias - how anyone could not have a bias between a group that chooses to murder innocents, stone homosexuals, oppress and rape members of minority religions (Christians), and is a corrupt despotism on one hand and a group that does everything it can to avoid murdering innocents, has the only Gay Parade in the Middle East, has a strong tradition of respecting minority rights (with Arab Muslims in the Knesset and the Supreme Court - how many Jews are there in Conquest [Fatah]?), and is an imperfect democracty on the other hand is a complete mystery to me.
How do you view the mass-bombings on civilians in WWII? From Hitler's beginning with bombing Coventry all the way to Bomber-Harris firestorm of Dresden, at a time when the war was almost done? It would fit your definition: Terrorizing civilians in order to break the order of the nation.
How very classic of you! To equate the bombings of Coventry, a situation where Hitler had started the war, with the bombings of Dresden! But then, you seem to have forgotten the page in the Chomsky manual where you equate the Dresden bombings with the Holocaust, isn't that right?
It's hardly debatable whether Dresden was terrorism - the Allies, perhaps incorrectly - believed it to be a site of weapons production. Regardless, they weren't the ones who started the war, and even if it was terrorism, it was still morally justified by Hitler's actions at, for example, Coventry. Revenge can be a morally just action, IMO.
| 664 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 7:14:15am |
657 Berliner
How do you view the mass-bombings on civilians in WWII?
Don't change the subject.
But that is one of hats Arafat has to wear indeed. Arafat himself deliberately wasted any opportunities to make the best out of the situation, but instead views himself forever as the leader of oppressed people and would apparently like to have it stay that way. Hardliners on both sides of the fence sadly play into each othr's hands.
Arafat was trained by the KGB for the sole purpose of destroying the best ally of the US in the Middle East, Israel. He is not a statesman, diplomat or a leader of a nation. He is a thief and a terrorist. When Barak offered him 97% of what the Palestinians demanded, he turned it down. Why? Sharon hasn't turned out to be the brutal war criminal that the media painted him to be. Nor has he been a peacemaker. By funding the PA and protecting Arafat, Europe and our State Dept have tied his hands and Israels are dying because of it.
As far as the "Palestinians", my heart goes out to children who are indoctrinated in hate. But their humanity gives them a choice. We have a wonderful young person who goes by the name of evariste who hangs around here. Ask him about growing up "Palestinian" Go read about Walid Shoebat.
Examine your liberal guilt Berliner. Did the Trümmerfrauen sit around and whine about victimization and root causes. Hint: Where do you think our famous "Protestant work ethic" (which isn't just for Protestants anymore) came from? Hmm?
| 665 |
John Gibbon Tue, Mar 9, 2004 7:15:26am |
#662 Berliner,
I'm well aware of the tragegy of Dresden. I've been there at least twice. What's left of the Downtown is a gem of Saxony. I've read much on the reasons, causes and effects of the Bombing Raid.
We have good friends that live in one of the old districts that actually survived. I've stayed with them in their old house. She is a lawyer and he used to be one, but now has his own business making lamps. They hated the DDR regime.
Well if you believe in Wikipedia, then you'll agree with the conclusions that the USAF came up with (which is actually linked below in you wikipedia link):
The foregoing historical analysis establishes the following definitive answers to the recurring questions concerning the February 1945 bombings of Dresden by Allied strategic air forces: a. Dresden was a legitimate military target. b. Strategic objectives, of mutual importance to the Allies and the Russians, underlay the bombings of Dresden. c. The Russians requested that the Dresden area be bombed by Allied air forces.
| 666 |
Smit Tue, Mar 9, 2004 7:24:26am |
Berliner. I am British, and as our role is apparantly to act as a bridge between America and Europe, allow me to interpret the situation.
America was attacked. 3000 people died. America was not at war when attacked.
Many Americans do not care why they were attacked, they do not care about the motivation of the terrorists. They saw an act of aggression committed against civilians. They want the terrorists to die, and they believe the best way to make terrorists die is to kill them.
Some other Americans do want to understand the terrorists. They would like to be able to use diplomacy and the UN {and appeasement} to make the world a happy place. Some would like to teach the world to sing and have a dept. of peace. These americans can be found at democraticunderground.com
Some of the Americans who believe in killing terrorists can be found here on LGF.
Also - bombing France/Germany is a joke. {For now}
| 667 |
Promethea Tue, Mar 9, 2004 7:27:09am |
To Berliner . . .
Your view of current problems and issues will become much clearer if you stop demonizing Sharon and Bush.
I've noticed that a lot of people who disagree with various subjects think the case is closed if they spit out "Sharon" and "Bush" as if those were arguments.
Sharon is a politician like most politicians in democratic countries. I doubt that he is more evil and cruel than politicans in Scandinavia (countries which we in America think of as pussycats).
Bush is a man of many aspects. Just spitting out his name doesn't constitute an argument for or against anything. I just had this exact same discussion with a friend of mine (pro-Kerry) a few minutes ago. We agreed to discuss later exactly why she hates Bush. I'll be interested to find out why. Tonight we're going to a rally for Kerry.
| 668 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 7:39:07am |
Do you care to address the numerous other points I made in #642?
I didn't mean to be rude or anything - I am just not that firm and wasn't in the past that interested in evrery detail in that conflict to be able to counter your obvious relative detail knowledge For a fruitful discussion, I'd have to assist with Googling, which wouldn't be too interesting. I did read though with interest what you wrote and browse through here anyone to get more a feeling for the emotions and the bias of things. :-)
I could throw you some anecdotal bites to underline my own position, like Sharon made cease-fires, but exempted assassinations, played a double-game on settlements, acknowledged negative treatment of Palestinians by using the word "occupation", or events like the destruction of the runway of the Palestinian airport (which was financed by EU-taxpayers' money), etc., etc.
Only lemme explain what I meant by "playing into each other's hands": Fanatic Palestinians need the radical Israelis, like the settlers, to argue against the Israelis. And vice versa, anything negative from Palestinians is used by Israeli radicals to argue against any peaceful solution.
Radicals from both sides - unwillingly - pollinate each other. Not just in Israel, but in every conflict.
| 669 |
Promethea Tue, Mar 9, 2004 7:39:50am |
#666 Smit . . .
You said, "Many Americans do not care why they were attacked, they do not care about the motivation of the terrorists."
Actually, this somewhat simplifies the general view of people on LGF. This forum is mainly a site to learn about the causes of terrorism.
What we have learned is not necessarily the PC view that the mainstream press promotes. This is the place where many of us have learned a lot about Wahhabi Islam, the role of Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Pakistan in promoting terrorism, the Koran, etc.
Sometimes knowledge leads us in a direction that could not have been predicted.
| 670 |
piglet Tue, Mar 9, 2004 7:45:20am |
Perhaps I was unjust towards YOU, but my (admittingly generalizing) remark came from observing the last couple days in many conservative/ e.g. Freeper-forums, which left me rather stunned at the light-heartedness at which violence is adocated as long as it goes somewhere in a right direction.You know...people writing nasty stuff not only in direction of Muslim countries, but also things like "Alright, I have had it. When do we begin bombing France or Germany?" or "To all Germans: The word 'Freeper' is in German a reminder of the bombing of Dresden".
Perhaps I am now the humourless German, but I find cracking jokes over bloodshed or advocating rather blind use of force rather disgusting, regardless whether the killed ones were Arabs, Israelis, Germans or Americans.
Oh, what a shame. Now you get thoughtful and serious, just when I was ready to start up with yiddish laden jokes.
Ok. Serious. Are Germans truely moved by the plight of the Palestinians (who are richer and fater than most of the people in the world.) Or do they fear deep down that
the jews of Israel might give up on justice and exact from germany old school biblical style vengence?
Have you spent as much internet time and effort trying to hold accountable those germans firms that helped Saddam with his poison gas production? Now that may be a Godwin violation, but as a jew it speaks to me of
a germany that has not changed as much as I had believed it had in the 1980's when I meet progressive germans in youth hostels.
oh, and "When I hear people talk of culture, I reach for my pistol." Gee, who said that?
Anyone want to answer? DO they teach that one in German schools still?
| 671 |
Promethea Tue, Mar 9, 2004 7:48:17am |
#668 Berliner . . .
When you are doing further research on the claims of the Israelis and the "Palestinians" to the area, be sure and check out the entire history of the area, not just the claims since 1967.
There is no reason why Sharon should have given up settlements. The "Palestinians" have no more rights to the area than the Jews do. In fact, they have fewer rights. However, you need to do some actual reading on this subject--not just "believe" what you think should be true because it seems "nicer" that way.
Amazingly, it's possible to support the Israelis and still be a "good person."
| 672 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 7:48:49am |
Fine, Berliner #668, don't bother addressing the points.
I could throw you some anecdotal bites to underline my own position, like Sharon made cease-fires, but exempted assassinations
You could, but it's not true.
played a double-game on settlements
What double game was that? The Jewish homes in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza do not kill people, as, for example, a terrorist violating a cease-fire does. And why is it, exactly, that Judea, Samaria, and Gaza should be Judenrein while Israel should continue to have an Arab minority?
acknowledged negative treatment of Palestinians by using the word "occupation"
I'm not sure I understand how this helps you.
or events like the destruction of the runway of the Palestinian airport (which was financed by EU-taxpayers' money), etc., etc.
Which was destroyed because it was found that Jordyptians politicos were using their planes to bring weapons into the Gaza Strip. Again, place the blame at the originator, not the victim.
Only lemme explain what I meant by "playing into each other's hands": Fanatic Palestinians need the radical Israelis, like the settlers, to argue against the Israelis. And vice versa, anything negative from Palestinians is used by Israeli radicals to argue against any peaceful solution.
While this trope is a popular one, and perhaps explains to some degree how the conflict can continue, it does not address the facts that the Jordyptians are universally "radical" (as you use the word) and have cleansed themselves of any radicals. Nor does it address the fact that Sharon has taken some actions against the "radical" settlers (who have yet to go on murder sprees -despite the stupidfada-, as do the "radical" Jordyptians) like dismantling outposts.
Radicals from both sides - unwillingly - pollinate each other. Not just in Israel, but in every conflict.
It's lovely that you think so. But that still doesn't address what occurred to start the conflict - which might have involved the "radical" Barak in your paradigm, but fails to account for what occurred.
Could it be (call me crazy, but I like the scientific method) that if you find that a paradigm is not predictive of reality, it might not be the most useful one for analyzing situations?
| 673 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 7:51:22am |
#668 Berliner
Radicals from both sides - unwillingly - pollinate each other. Not just in Israel, but in every conflict.
You drop a lot of these "truisms" that don't turn out in all cases to be true.
Maybe you consider Bush a "radical" but what "pollinated" the attacks (WTC 1, Khobar, African embassies, etc) when Clinton is in office?
You have some hardwired assumptions (as we all do) that cloud your perception.
| 674 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 7:52:38am |
Oops, in #672,
While this trope is a popular one, and perhaps explains to some degree how the conflict can continue, it does not address the facts that the Jordyptians are universally "radical" (as you use the word) and have cleansed themselves of any radicalsmoderates.
| 675 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 7:53:42am |
Bush is a man of many aspects. Just spitting out his name doesn't constitute an argument for or against anything.
Aaah, here we go! :-) And I guess, you are right that I "demonize" him in a way, as many over here do. I truly believe the man is a danger, makes the world less safe and boosts terrorism with his antagonistic, arrogant and 'dissing' style.
What'd odd about it: He seems so different than his father. Not only from the appearance in terms of education and wisdom (and he had all the opportunities in the world from his parents). His father also had neo-cons in his administration, but he seemed more in charge, using and outplaying his staff for fruitful policies (like a leader does), while Bush jr. appears to be more the puppet of some of those in his administration (yah know - the Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz folks) and less "in charge" than his father.
And of course as a Berliner, I haven't forgotten that Bush sr. is mainly responsible for a speedy German unification (against the other Allies), let alone the protection of this city by Americans for many decades. But I may slam Bush jr. without having to point out the positive things from the past all the time to not appear "unthankful", right? :-)
| 676 |
Smit Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:02:25am |
#669 Promethea - I was trying to simplify as much as possible. Heaven forbid I implied the Lizardoids don't care about reasons.
LGF regulars fully understand the reasons and causes behind terrorism AND still want to kill the terrorists.
This is what Berliner finds unacceptable. In his(?) world view once you are educated you should understand that only diplomacy via supranational bodies is a legitimate way of influencing others.
This view is very popular in Europe & Britain.
| 677 |
zulubaby Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:07:35am |
Am I the only one who finds it distasteful that a German is berating Jews for their treatment of the people who are committing genocide against them? I'm altogether creeped out by this.
| 678 |
Smit Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:08:47am |
Berliner - So Bush is dangerous and stupid. I wonder where this is leading... could there be a {scary music} cabal?
while Bush jr. appears to be more the puppet of some of those in his administration (yah know - the Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz folks)
There you go. Wolfowitz.
GAZE
| 679 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:11:11am |
#675 Berliner
And I guess, you are right that I "demonize" him in a way, as many over here do. I truly believe the man is a danger, makes the world less safe and boosts terrorism with his antagonistic, arrogant and 'dissing' style.
Confession: As a college student in the 80's I said the same about Reagan. Not only did the world survive, but but he is the one you should be giving credit to for tearing down the Berlin Wall.
Prior to Desert Storm Bush Sr had to have Maggie Thatcher give him a verbal sargeant slap and tell "not to go wobbly now" I think his son has ten times the resolve as his father.
Oh and did you know that this past Chrismas Bush and his wife gave out more than forty Christmas presents to kids whose parents were in prison? That's ok, it didn't get reported here either.
| 680 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:12:41am |
Are Germans truely moved by the plight of the Palestinians (who are richer and fater than most of the people in the world.) Or do they fear deep down that
the jews of Israel might give up on justice and exact from germany old school biblical style vengence?
Actually, naturally the whole Israel-issue is a very complex and difficult one. What would "normality" be?
And there certainly is no such thing as "the Germans" on this issue. There is just as much a split in opinion as anywhere else (also in the media - we also have large very pro-Israel media as well)- additionally the historic burden.
oh, and "When I hear people talk of culture, I reach for my pistol." Gee, who said that?
Anyone want to answer? DO they teach that one in German schools still?
I had to google that quote now, but if there is one thing certain, then it is that history isn't forgotten.
More the opposite - there is a constant stream of documentaries, remembrance, etc. Somebody up higher in that thread mentioned that if Germans most of all hate their own country - and while I wouldn't totally agree with that, there is some truth to it because of our past and our still painful dealings with it.
| 681 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:14:33am |
zulubaby #677,
Am I the only one who finds it distasteful that a German is berating Jews for their treatment of the people who are committing genocide against them? I'm altogether creeped out by this.
No, you're not. That's why I've been making clear statements that it seems that his position is that Jews are not allowed to defend themselves. He has yet to reply to them by saying otherwise, which is hardly surprising. I doubt that he would be able to say which ways Jews were "allowed" to defend themselves either.
| 682 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:14:36am |
#677 zulubaby
It is creepy. I wouldn't bother except for the hope that there is another potential hans ze beeman out there.
| 683 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:16:22am |
Am I the only one who finds it distasteful that a German is berating Jews for their treatment of the people who are committing genocide against them?
I dunno if you are the only one, but I find it rather silly that you throw out mostly only one-liners.
Also a free clue: I was born long after 1945, so all this guilt-trip is bullshit. There is a moral responsibility to learn out of history, but I am as a person just as much guilty for 1933 as you are, my friend.
| 684 |
John Gibbon Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:16:27am |
Berliner,
But I may slam Bush jr. without having to point out the positive things from the past all the time to not appear "unthankful", right? :-)
Yes you can slam him now, but 20 years from now when there are flourishing democracies without terror in the middle east, remember to put your foot in your mouth.
...Boy I remember how much the Germans hated Reagan for defending Germany with Pershing missiles and now??? You have a flourishing nation with attributes from both Former DDR and West Germany.
| 685 | j.e. Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:18:10am |
'623papijoe
Traue nur einer Statistik die du auch selbst gefälscht hast
no adage better hits than this i think so :-)
but i can compose you papijoe. germans unemploymentstats with 11% are manipulated too.people who make short advanced trainings ordered from"arbeitsamt" are cancelled from unemploymentstats. our stat is propably some percents higher :-)
#623papijoe
i hope that enough facts war was a failure :
[Link: www.ceip.org...]
short version here : [Link: www.ceip.org...]
and to remember :
The threat comes from Iraq. It arises directly from the Iraqi regime's own actions - its history of aggression, and its drive toward an arsenal of terror. Eleven years ago, as a condition for ending the Persian Gulf War, the Iraqi regime was required to destroy its weapons of mass destruction, to cease all development of such weapons, and to stop all support for terrorist groups. The Iraqi regime has violated all of those obligations. It possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. It has given shelter and support to terrorism, and practices terror against its own people. The entire world has witnessed Iraq's eleven-year history of defi ance, deception and bad faith.
US-Präsident Bush am 7. Oktober 2002
sources:
[Link: www.heise.de...]
| 686 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:19:14am |
Berliner #680,
I had to google that quote now, but if there is one thing certain, then it is that history isn't forgotten.
That's quite an ironic statement, given your open refusal to learn the history of a conflict that you feel free to expostulate on. Try reading Palestine Facts for a start.
| 687 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:21:25am |
Berliner #683,
Also a free clue: I was born long after 1945, so all this guilt-trip is bullshit. There is a moral responsibility to learn out of history, but I am as a person just as much guilty for 1933 as you are, my friend.
Except that when 1933 happens again in 2003 (or 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, and probably many more years), you're out there defending the people doing it. So no, you're quite a bit more guilty than you would like to think.
| 688 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:21:46am |
I doubt that he would be able to say which ways Jews were "allowed" to defend themselves either.
Oh, rubbish. We talked about targeting terrorism and here you are, going for the anti-semite card.
I never said anyone wasn't allowed to defend themselves. I questioned some of the _methods_ to do so, something that is even in discussion within Israel or on German jewish websites like Hagalil.
| 689 |
John Gibbon Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:24:17am |
Berliner,
but I am as a person just as much guilty for 1933 as you are, my friend.
Yes you are! inasmuch as I am a citizen of the United States, you are a citizen of Germany and we both have a national legacy to bear, yours is just more horrifying and recent.
Facing that legacy is a first step, you should be ashamed of what your country did in the last century as much as I am for what our country enabled two centuries ago.
| 690 |
zulubaby Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:24:35am |
Ariel & papijoe, I'm not commenting much (horrified into silence, perhaps?) but I'm reading while you guys are debating and thank you both for being clear and calm about it. I'm finding the whole premise slightly depressing really. What a world we live in -- now the German left is replacing the German right or are they overlapping? Whatever the case, the Jews remain the eternal villains. Based on what, I'm not sure, but it seems that hating Jews is a comfortable position for so much of the world.
papijoe, I've been thinking about hans ze beeman a lot during this discussion. He is a wonderful ambassador to Germany, they should be grateful. What keeps going through my mind is that the Germans posting here are undoing what hans ze beeman has accomplished regarding my attitude toward Germans. Nothing could change my mind regarding hans though, he's such a decent guy.
| 691 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:27:03am |
Confession: As a college student in the 80's I said the same about Reagan. Not only did the world survive, but but he is the one you should be giving credit to for tearing down the Berlin Wall.
I am well aware of that. (Of course, Reagan was mostly wildly cheered on here in Berlin for his famous line "Tear down that wall", but there were then quite a few "anti-imperialist" demonstrations as well)
I don't think the same effect will happen with Bush jr. in retrospect some day. Perhaps because of his wild spending and his infringement of civil liberties even for Americans (Patriot Act, Homeland Security, etc.). Of course, I could be wrong.
| 692 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:29:08am |
Berliner #688,
Umm, I still doubt that you would define in exactly which ways Israel should be "allowed" to respond to terrorism. (Genuflection, incidentally, does not qualify as self-defense.) You could feel free to prove me wrong by providing a comprehensive list of how Israel should be "allowed" to defend itself. And then you could explain why, exactly, Israel is "allowed" by other countries to defend itself, whereas other countries do not need to be "allowed" to defend themselves, as, for example, Spain did, when they stormed the Isla de Perejil (after Morocco had taken it) with half of the Spanish Armada (well, Navy) in order to arrest three policemen and five goats - none of which, for some mysterious reason, required anybody's permission.
| 693 | Atomic Redneck, Honorary Jew Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:29:14am |
Since many of our German friends seem to be claiming that Germans don't hate Americans, they just don't like our current policies; maybe they would like to explain why when I was in Europe in 1979, the only country where I was verbally attacked in public was Germany. What policies of the Carter administration were being blamed in 1979?
| 694 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:29:30am |
#683 Berliner
Also a free clue: I was born long after 1945, so all this guilt-trip is bullshit.
So then why all the angst about the poor unfortunate "Palestinians"
And being born after 1945 doesn't absolve you from being historically sensitive. There are people here who have lost relatives in Germany and Israel. How do you think it makes them feel to see you siding with the killers now?
| 695 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:31:09am |
Facing that legacy is a first step, you should be ashamed of what your country did in the last century as much as I am for what our country enabled two centuries ago.
I did talk of a responsibility because of history. I do not have any personal guilt. (Aside from the fact that only my mother is German - does that make me a "half-guilty" as in "half-German"? So is guilt determined by genetic makeup or by the passport or by what?)
| 696 |
zulubaby Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:32:02am |
I dunno if you are the only one, but I find it rather silly that you throw out mostly only one-liners.
So what? I don't care. Sometimes I have a lot to say, other times I don't. Try not to be petty.
Also a free clue: I was born long after 1945, so all this guilt-trip is bullshit.
I wasn't suggesting a guilt trip and I certainly don't hold you personally responsible for the Holocaust. I do, however, find it repulsive that a German is wagging his finger at how the Jews are treating the Palestinians who are, as far as I'm concerned, today's Nazis with the only difference being that instead of cooking Jews in ovens they're cooking Jews in buses. There is still mass-murder of Jews going on and you have sympathy for those murderers. Do you understand why this is repulsive to me?
| 697 | j.e. Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:33:02am |
oh yes all germans are anti-semites. ... thats the result of this discussion?? you are right zulubaby, your world is very strange...
| 699 |
Smit Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:36:56am |
Berliner - If Germany really felt guilty then Germany would be the No1 contributor to Israel. Loans, equipment, trade.
Young Germans would be riding Israeli buses as human shields. Maybe there would also be a German peace corps shutting down smuggling tunnels in Gaza.
Compare and contrast with reality.
If you can't have any sympathy for the Israelis without saying "yesbutthepalestinians", please adopt another issue to care about.
Psst - Syria is occupying Lebanon. Egypt is persecuting Christian Copts. China's up to something in Tibet. North Korea is starving it's people.
| 700 |
piglet Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:39:31am |
Also a free clue: I was born long after 1945, so all this guilt-trip is bullshit. There is a moral responsibility to learn out of history, but I am as a person just as much guilty for 1933 as you are, my friend.
You are wrong. My family came to the US in 1890 something, yet I share the guilt of the destruction of the native americans and the slavery of blacks in the US.
But if you feel as you do then remember:
Ariel (“Arik”) Sharon was born at Kfar Malal on February 27, 1928. He served in the IDF for more than 25 years, retiring with the rank of Major-General. He holds an LL.B in Law from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem (1962).
He joined the Haganah at the age of 14 in 1942.
Moshe Dayan (May 20, 1915 - October 16, 1981), was an Israeli military leader and politician.
Moshe Dayan was born in the kibbutz Daganya Alef, then still part of the Ottoman Empire, near Lake Kinneret (Sea of Galilee). His parents were Shemuel and Devorah, and he was the first child born in the newly-established community,
Aged 14 he joined the Haganah at a very early stage.
Both born not in Europe, not in NYC, not in Germany
but born in Israel. Not colonialists. Natives.
| 701 |
John Gibbon Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:41:04am |
So is guilt determined by genetic makeup or by the passport or by what?
Short answer is 'passport' You are a German citizen, you have a national history. You should be sensitive to people that your country terrorized during the last century.
| 702 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:46:37am |
Umm, I still doubt that you would define in exactly which ways Israel should be "allowed" to respond to terrorism. (Genuflection, incidentally, does not qualify as self-defense.) You could feel free to prove me wrong by providing a comprehensive list of how Israel should be "allowed" to defend itself.
So I only may critizise Sharon's politics if I state at the same time political-correctness-generalities that Israel of course has a right to self-defend and to find way to deal with terrorism?
No one questions Israel's right to exist and the necessity to self-defend.. The obvious debate is over the How and what might be counter-productive.
And if you say that other countries receive less worldwide attention, that is certainly true, but then again other countries don't have that special sensitive background as Israelis and Palestinensians have - seeing how this topic is debated even inside the US, ask yourself, why?
| 703 |
John Gibbon Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:50:56am |
Berliner,
seeing how this topic is debated even inside the US, ask yourself, why?
Name another democracy in the middle east? (not counting Iraq or Afganistan)?
Do you actually think that if we gave the Palistinians a state right now, they would establish a democracy?
| 704 | j.e Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:52:25am |
zulubaby
now the German left is replacing the German right or are they overlapping? Whatever the case, the Jews remain the eternal villains. Based on what, I'm not sure, but it seems that hating Jews is a comfortable position for so much of the world.
i interpret this statement. if its false i will correct myself immediately.
redneck
when I was in Europe in 1979, the only country where I was verbally attacked in public was Germany
i am sorry that happend this. i can only tell about me and my environment : such verbal attacks i would never tolerate. at all i´m very shocked how much prejudices on both sides are available... sad but true
| 705 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:53:22am |
Berliner - If Germany really felt guilty then Germany would be the No1 contributor to Israel. Loans, equipment, trade.
We are a quite large contributor to Israel. Largest prolly being the US, no?
| 706 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:56:02am |
Berliner #702,
So I only may critizise Sharon's politics if I state at the same time political-correctness-generalities that Israel of course has a right to self-defend and to find way to deal with terrorism?
No, you can do whatever you please. However, it certainly seems like you want to blame the party that was attacked instead of the party that chose the war - which is interesting - and you are mighty reluctant to discuss exactly why the reacting party is indeed wrong and what it could do that would be right.
No one questions Israel's right to exist and the necessity to self-defend.. The obvious debate is over the How and what might be counter-productive.
Many people discuss Israel's right to exist and their being allowed to defend themselves.
You still haven't answered the question: how should Israel be "allowed" to defend itself? Specifics, please.
And if you say that other countries receive less worldwide attention, that is certainly true, but then again other countries don't have that special sensitive background as Israelis and Palestinensians have - seeing how this topic is debated even inside the US, ask yourself, why?
I think that we know the answer to why this is a popular topic.
I wasn't saying that other countries receive less attention. I was saying that other countries, for some mysterious reason, do not require permission to act out of self-defense. Isn't that odd, that you propose a double-standard for the one Jewish state?
| 707 |
Geepers Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:57:02am |
Berliner (#702),
No one questions Israel's right to exist and the necessity to self-defend.. The obvious debate is over the How and what might be counter-productive.
What's your opinion of the security fence? Necessary self-defense or counter-productive provocation?
| 708 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 8:59:08am |
Name another democracy in the middle east? (not counting Iraq or Afganistan)?
I know. And of course, us Western countries either directly supported or even ran those unjust systems in the past 100 years. Not exactly a role-model, were we?
And the problem now, after all this supression, is: Had we democracies in some of these countries, who would these people vote for? What if they all directly voted themselves into the arms of fanatic Mullahs?
I have no solution for this. Democracy western-style can't be forced upon people. Elections in Afghanistan and Iraq will be interesting.
| 709 |
Promethea Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:02:13am |
#702 Berliner . . .
Maybe you can answer this question: Why does the EU support Arafat and his terror gangs?
I don't understand this and would like some answers.
| 710 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:05:41am |
#691 Berliner
his infringement of civil liberties even for Americans (Patriot Act, Homeland Security, etc.).
We've discussed this already. The Amis here would be the first ones screaming
685 j.e.
Are we shocked that the Carnegie Institute for Peace has determined that war was the wrong response?
OK, we fought Saddam in Desert Storm
He violated the terms of the treaty numerous times in numerous ways
Clearly he thought he had WMD as did everyone else(Clinton admin, UN, etc) before Bush decided to hold Saddam accountable.
Otherwise, why wouldn't he let the inspectors have free rein
And don't be surprised if something turns up in the Bekaa Valley, oh, sometime before November.
You heard it hear first.
| 711 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:06:47am |
Berliner #708,
What if they all directly voted themselves into the arms of fanatic Mullahs?
It's a fair guess that they wouldn't have kept voting for them, in any case. You see, democracy does not mean one man, one vote, one time. Democracy also means that the voting happens more than once. So if they happened to elect the mullahs, odds are that sooner or later they would elect someone else. That is, unless it was a "democracy", like in Syria, where Assad pere and fils manage to win with 99% of the vote or in "Palestine", where he only holds one election and ignores the end of his term.
| 712 |
Promethea Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:14:09am |
#708 Berliner . . .
You said: "And of course, us Western countries either directly supported or even ran those unjust systems in the past 100 years. Not exactly a role-model, were we?"
Now you are blaming the Western countries for the problems in the Islamic countries (specifically Arabs, since we should keep this discussion simple).
Do these people not have any responsibility for themselves? If the Western countries had completely ignored them 100 years ago, would the Arab countries be more peaceful, prosperous, and democratic? Would women be better treated? Would the judicial system be more fair?
Would the countries of Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, etc. even exist? There's a lot to think about before you decide that the Western countries aren't good role models.
I guess I'm pointing this out because you are just mouthing a lot of phony platitudes, and I feel like calling you on them.
| 713 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:16:21am |
You still haven't answered the question: how should Israel be "allowed" to defend itself? Specifics, please.
To go after criminals like other Western countries do. Arrest them, try them. No extra-judicial assassinations, no collective punishment by destroying homes or infra-structure like the airport, etc.
What's your opinion of the security fence? Necessary self-defense or counter-productive provocation?
An understandable measure and fence is a passive item legit for borders, though the current problem seems the way the fence is being run, it is not just border-control, but also cuts into Palestininian territory.
| 714 |
John Gibbon Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:18:00am |
I know. And of course, us Western countries either directly supported or even ran those unjust systems in the past 100 years. Not exactly a role-model, were we?
I take it that 'I know' means that you wholeheartedly agree on the State of Israel and its right to exist and defend itself?
Who is we? When did the US colonize the middle east in the last century? We provided technology for their oil industry. Kind of a two way street.
| 715 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:23:19am |
Do these people not have any responsibility for themselves? If the Western countries had completely ignored them 100 years ago, would the Arab countries be more peaceful, prosperous, and democratic?
Calling my lines platitudes, but responding with some as well? :-) Both is true - it all mixes into each other.
Perhaps they simply live in a different time-zone in a way. They didn't have the same path of bloody experience into democracy which we had.
I just don't think that Bush jr.'s dream of "domino-effect", of democratization by force will work. Surely not in Afghanistan (where we even today support evil war-lords) and likely not in Iraq.
| 716 |
Promethea Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:27:04am |
#713 Berliner . . .
How do you know what "Palestinian territory" is? Is there a map somewhere that shows this?
Hmmm. It will be interesting to see this important map. Kind of like the famous Vinland map, I would imagine.
| 717 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:32:58am |
Berliner #713,
To go after criminals like other Western countries do. Arrest them, try them.
Not all Western countries do this. To think of one example, the US also chooses to kill terrorists. And, interestingly enough, the US has been the most effective at finding a solution which doesn't involve appeasing the terrorists. I wonder if their might be a linkage?
No extra-judicial assassinations
You mean like the US has done numerous times? Or like the French did in Algeria?
Does it bother you that Arafat's thugs conduct extra-judicial killings, not merely of Jews, but also of their own people, when they are alleged to be "collaborators"?
Or is it only if the perpetrators are Jews that it's considered an evil action?
And what if the perpetrator of terrorism refuses to surrender to arrest? Do the Israelis just say "Oh well" and go home? How exactly would your proposal of "arrest them, try them" work given that the Jordyptians control, to a certain extent, a fair amount of territory and that their "government" (such as it is) aids and abets their murderous operations?
no collective punishment by destroying homes
Yes, it's horrible that Israel has to destroy the homes of the genocide bombers who murder dozens of her citizens. But perhaps the fault lies with the genocide bombers themselves, no?
And, in terms of Western countries not doing this, you're on pretty poor footing, given that the British response to Arab terrorism was to destroy the entire village that the terrorist had come from.
The British response in Northern Ireland wasn't exactly all peachy either.
The French response to Algerian terrorism involved killing 1M Algerians, many of whom were, undoubtedly, innocent. (Though undoubtedly, many of them were guilty.) And they didn't stop at blowing up houses - supposedly, the French were involved in mass executions of those suspected of helping the rebels.
or infra-structure like the airport, etc.
And what if that airport had been used, as it had been, to illegally smuggle in weapons, under the flag of diplomatic immunity in Jordyptian official planes? Again, please do consider the ramifications of what you're saying in context - basically, in this case, you're saying that Israel does not have the right to defend itself against illegal weapon smuggling.
| 718 |
Promethea Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:34:08am |
#715 Berliner . . .
You said: "I just don't think that Bush jr.'s dream of "domino-effect", of democratization by force will work. Surely not in Afghanistan (where we even today support evil war-lords) and likely not in Iraq."
Well this is an amazing switch in subject. But, fortunately for you, you've come to a website where the readers know a lot about what's actually going on.
For example, did you know that in Iraq, just yesterday, the Iraqi Council agreed upon a charter?
Who would have predicted this would have happened less than one year ago, when the war began?
If you want some direct information from Iraq, check out some of the Iraqi bloggers, like healingiraq or iraqthemodel. There are quite a few of them now.
| 719 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:40:24am |
How do you know what "Palestinian territory" is? Is there a map somewhere that shows this?
Is there ANYTHING a German like me can say without disagreement in this place? :-)
I googled now...here is a quote from Tommy Lapid, Israel's Justice minister and Dept. Primeminister, during his visit to Germany last month:
"Meiner Meinung nach sollte der Zaun weniger tief in das palästinensische Gebiet einschneiden. Sollte der Zaun das Land eines palästinensischen Bauern zerteilen oder gar Kinder von ihrem Schulweg abschneiden, dann greift er in persönliche Schicksale ein. Das kann auch dem Ansehen Israels in der Welt schaden."
translated by me:
"According to my opinion, the fence should cut less deep into palestinian territory. If the fence divides the land of a palestinian farmer or even cuts children off from their way to school, then the fence intervenes into personal lives. This can also harm the reputation of Israel in the world"
Published in Hamburger Abendblatt, a newspaper by the Axel Springer Publishing house, which has a long history of being supportive with Israel.
| 720 |
Dirk Diggler Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:41:46am |
An understandable measure and fence is a passive item legit for borders, though the current problem seems the way the fence is being run, it is not just border-control, but also cuts into Palestininian territory.
I must say I'm impressed by the level of rational discourse from the "crazy German Left". It's something of a refreshing change. The German Left definitely is an improvement on the pompous, effete snobs who claim to be "intellectuals" in the United States. That being said, the positions they hold are still wrong. Four years of Palestinian Authority sanctioned terror is building the separation barrier. All the hardship and suffering that result from the arbitrary nature of Israel's separation barrier are the fault of the Palestinian Authority's unwillingness (not inability, unwillingness) to uproot the terrorist organizations that have infested areas like Bethlehem, Hebron, and Ramallah. If the terror ends the separation barrier will disappear. Israel has powerful economic incentives (ie. access to cheap Palestinian labor) that would ensure that.
| 721 |
Promethea Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:42:08am |
Berliner . . .
I love your views on how to catch terrorists who walk from "Palestine" to Israel. (Which is just across the street, incidentally. I have walked back and forth many times.)
I guess real life is just like an action movie or a video game.
Maybe you should read some Israeli blogs before becoming such a defense expert. Or, try some of the fact sheets provided at the top of this blog.
| 722 | j.e Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:43:36am |
#710 papijoe
i think you mean that US suspect wmds in this valley, right ?
ok, google.de found one hit called freerepublic :-)
i think its more realistic that bin laden appear in person at random, lets say in september ? america is happy bush will glorified and reelected and anybody in the states is happy .
thats my prognose for the coming year 2004
Otherwise, why wouldn't he let the inspectors have free rein
you mean saddam ?
easy to answer : do you hear anything about islamic proud ?
the hated western inspectors controlled by US. the badest thing arabs can imagine.
| 723 |
zulubaby Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:44:19am |
Berliner (#713)
To go after criminals like other Western countries do. Arrest them, try them.
What do you make of this?
| 724 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:47:44am |
#715 Berliner
Afghanistan (where we even today support evil war-lords)
I'm reading "Hunt for Bin Laden" and I don't thing you can call Hamed Karzai an evil warlord. Some of the other "Generals" seem to be rough characters, but compared to the Taliban, they're pussycats.
I just finished the part where 3 journalist accidently strayed into a Taliban position. There was a German man and 2 French women. You can imagine their fate. Even the Northern Alliance, who suffered heavy casualties to recover the bodies, were horrified.
| 725 | Ed Moran abu 23C this am in HOU Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:48:12am |
Um, nobody disputes that the European settlers, as a rule, treated the Indigenous Americans like crap. But Thanksgiving does not celebrate a genocide against anybody.
I wonder if we'd even have a budget deficit if we'd pulled all of our armed forces out of Hun-land twenty or thirty years ago and made the barbarians pay for their own defense?
Did the US ever get repaid for the Marshall Plan?
European bestsellers such as the Audi A4, BMW 5- and 7-Series, Land Rover Discovery, Mercedes-Benz C-, E- and M-Classes, Mini Cooper, Volvo XC90 and VW Golf, Jetta and New Beetle aren't recommended.In a telephone conference with reporters, Champion revealed a startling statistic: a new 2003 BMW 7-Series sedan has more problems than an 8-year-old Lexus LS 400 sedan.
Consumer Reports confirms a growing awareness of less-than-perfect quality with the cars and trucks made by European automakers.
Last year, J.D. Power and Associates' Vehicle Dependability Study of 3-year-old vehicles showed ``substantial quality gaps'' between domestic and European models. On average, European vehicles had 49 more problems per 100 vehicles than did U.S. cars and trucks at three years of ownership.
| 726 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:48:36am |
For example, did you know that in Iraq, just yesterday, the Iraqi Council agreed upon a charter?
I did read that and I had said "likely not in Iraq".
But I also read the following critical reaction by Ayatollah al-Sistani to demand changes and that it will only be in effect when it is legitimized by an election - we will see what the future really brings.
| 727 |
Promethea Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:49:40am |
#719 Berliner . . .
You said: "Is there ANYTHING a German like me can say without disagreement in this place?"
Well yes. However, you have stumbled upon a site where the posters pride themselves on challenging each other with FACTS, not just opinions.
That's what is unnerving you. You're not used to people responding with facts. So much of political discussion--in the U.S. as well as in Europe--consists of people just spouting off how much they hate Bush, Sharon, Kerry, Schroeder, Chirac, etc. You get the picture. Here people like to cut each other down with FACTS. No one is immune. Whether you are German or not is irrelevant.
European Beauty (on another thread or this one?) just slunk off this morning after she decided we didn't like the same movies she did (and how could she know, since I didn't tell her what movies I liked). You seem to be more game about actually discussing things.
So don't be discouraged. But do come here to learn some FACTS, and you may find the world isn't quite as simple as you once believed.
| 728 |
Dirk Diggler Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:53:30am |
I just don't think that Bush jr.'s dream of "domino-effect", of democratization by force will work. Surely not in Afghanistan (where we even today support evil war-lords) and likely not in Iraq.
Democratization by force seemed to work in West Germany and Japan. Nobody believes that Afghanistan or Iraq will become Jeffersonian democracies overnight, it will be a long uphill struggle for both societies. Still, it's better to have tried to create a democracy in those societies. It's certainly better than the alternative (ie. backing a strongman in the name of "regional stability", only to have the same strongman that we backed turn on us). That scenario happened in both Syria and Iraq. This 'simpleton' Texan seems to want to avoid that, and for that he has my support.
| 729 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:02:09am |
#722 j.e
i think you mean that US suspect wmds in this valley, right ?
Fo' shizzle, my nizzle!
easy to answer : do you hear anything about islamic proud ?
So you're saying...that this might have been a cultural misunderstanding and if we were more sensitive to Saddam's feelings, we could have avoided this whole silly war?
Whoa!
I'm going to have to think about that...
| 730 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:02:42am |
I love your views on how to catch terrorists who walk from "Palestine" to Israel. (Which is just across the street, incidentally. I have walked back and forth many times.)I guess real life is just like an action movie or a video game.
You mean you are in Israel?
And re: video game...i sometimes have that impression from US-military sites. War is clean and good. Join the Army, see the world.
As a European, and especially as a German, i have a deep distrust over glorification or heroization of military (the tone of the jessicy lynch-rescue) A soldier is a sometimes necessary duty, but not something to be glorified, from our historic experience. To give your Army a larger-than-life importance can lead down a dangerous path.
btw: The footage from that US-apache chopper shooting on people on the ground (was shown on ABC in january - you prolly know it?) also received wide media-attention in Germany, btw. ("He is wounded. Hit him again.")
@Ariel: read your longer posting again with interest. I would only get repetitive in replying, don't feel ignored.
| 731 |
Promethea Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:05:45am |
#728 Dirk Diggler . . .
You said: "This 'simpleton' Texan seems to want to avoid that, and for that he has my support. "
Me too. I think he's one of the most creative thinkers I have seen in my lifetime or read about in my history classes. I tell my friends that I think he is on a level with Harry Truman, and they go bug-eyed. They think I've lost it. But he has a great grasp of what needs to be done, and to hell with conventional thinkers who can't think their way out of a box.
| 732 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:07:19am |
Berliner #730,
As a European, and especially as a German, i have a deep distrust over glorification or heroization of military (the tone of the jessicy lynch-rescue) A soldier is a sometimes necessary duty, but not something to be glorified, from our historic experience.
That's really interesting that you're Germany when it suits you and not when it's discomfiting.
read your longer posting again with interest. I would only get repetitive in replying, don't feel ignored.
So you basically are just going to assert that your opinions are such and such and disregard the facts?
| 733 |
Dirk Diggler Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:10:54am |
Berlier,
I don't know if "good news" like this gets much play in Germany:
NATO General Says Afghan Fighters Close to Defeat
"If you were to color code Afghanistan today...green meaning secure and stable, yellow meaning somewhat dangerous and red meaning very dangerous, three-quarters of the entire country would be green by any evaluation today."
(NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe James) Jones said last month after briefings at the headquarters of the U.S.-led Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan that the number of hard-core Taliban and al Qaeda guerrillas had dropped below 1,000 and their strength appeared to be waning.
| 734 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:12:34am |
Democratization by force seemed to work in West Germany and Japan.
Don't know enough about Japan, but you can't compare Afghanistan or Iraq with Germany.
Germany did have a bit of positive history between the barbaric Germans decribed by Tacitus or in Caesar's Bellum Gallicum and the Nazis of 1933. :-)
| 735 |
Promethea Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:15:53am |
#730 Berliner . . .
Now you are confusing reality with what the media shows you. These are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, and you need to learn to interpret them differently.
For example, what was the Jessica Lynch story all about? The short answer: she was a cute young woman who made a great TV and newspaper story. Her capture and rescue had no importance whatsoever in the great scheme of things, but it was newsworthy.
The ABC broadcast from the gunship can be interpreted many ways--it showed "what it is like from the cockpit." Whether the pilots were gleeful is subject to interpretation. When I saw the clip, I thought about the skill of the pilots and the dangers they were facing. I did not see them as "gleeful killers." But on your TV, you saw them as American barbarians.
Again, what is the overall importance of this story? Who benefits from showing this story? What is their agenda?
Do you think Americans are barbarian killers, or do you think they are professionals trying to do an unpleasant but necessary job?
| 736 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:21:29am |
That's really interesting that you're Germany when it suits you and not when it's discomfiting.
Well, I only rejected the personal guilt-notion, not the historic responsibility and lessons.
So you basically are just going to assert that your opinions are such and such and disregard the facts?
I am just not as firm in this specific issue in recalling facts from memory as you are apparently. I could visit now the usual suspect-sits and have a big argumentation-battle - but it wouldn't be that fruitful, no?
| 737 |
Dirk Diggler Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:28:45am |
Do you think Americans are barbarian killers, or do you think they are professionals trying to do an unpleasant but necessary job?
As George Orwell once said "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
| 738 |
Promethea Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:30:09am |
Berliner and others . . .
This has been interesting, but I have to go now. Berliner, I hope you'll check out this LGF site again because there's a lot of information to be found here, including valuable links.
I always especially enjoy discussions with people who aren't from the U.S. because it's good to get differing viewpoints.
Come here for the FACTS rather than expecting a lot of groupthink feel-good stuff that reinforces what you already think you know.
| 739 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:30:39am |
Berliner
As a European, and especially as a German, i have a deep distrust over glorification or heroization of military (the tone of the jessicy lynch-rescue) A soldier is a sometimes necessary duty, but not something to be glorified, from our historic experience. To give your Army a larger-than-life importance can lead down a dangerous path.
This was an enlightening comment. Having briefly studied Japanese, I was struck with the visceral aversion to the military and especially trauma of Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Overall, this is probably for the best, and it is understandable that the pendulum might swing too far the other way for a season.
You mentioned the video game appeal of militarism. The US Army does have a video game as a recruiting tool. (and it's pretty cool) and the recruiters never tell you what it's really like. I remember in bootcamp doing bayonet training and really hitting home that we were practicing driving a big knife into someone's guts (broke my leg soon after, end of USMC career). Ask any of the Vietnam vets here if war is fun.
But there are times when war is necessary and for Americans this is one of them. I don't expect you to agree with that (yet), but you might want to consider that there is a more honorable warrior ethic. That doesn't necessarily mean picking up a rifle, or flying a jet, but I think all males (and some females) are hardwired to actually want to lay down their lives for a cause that is greater than them.
Your posts are getting better. Thanks for pointing out something I hadn't considered before.
| 740 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:37:00am |
The ABC broadcast from the gunship can be interpreted many ways--it showed "what it is like from the cockpit." Whether the pilots were gleeful is subject to interpretation. When I saw the clip, I thought about the skill of the pilots and the dangers they were facing. I did not see them as "gleeful killers." But on your TV, you saw them as American barbarians.Again, what is the overall importance of this story? Who benefits from showing this story? What is their agenda?
Do you think Americans are barbarian killers, or do you think they are professionals trying to do an unpleasant but necessary job?
I mentioned this as an example as to how pictures are used. And yes, it was used here as an example for "war crimes". German TV also interviewed an Ex-US-General to make a statement. (I personally thought the footage was too short to draw certain conclusions from it. And drew some heat for that in German forums ;-) )
I can give you the link of the German video, if you are interested in how the footage is cut - they also had AFAIK a piece from CNN, where they shoot someone on a ground and then a young soldiers talks about an adrenalin rush. (was also before on some blogging-websites)
If I think soldiers are barbarian killers? No, but I also think a portrayal of soldiers as "heroic and just" is wrong: If you are 18-22 years old, frightened in a foreign country with a gun, shit happens. It would to me, if I were a soldier. No Army's soldiers are filled with noble men, not doing any wrong. War is ugly and often unjust. Any different view is naive.
| 741 |
Dirk Diggler Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:48:24am |
War is ugly and often unjust. Any different view is naive.
War often is ugly and unjust, but it is also often necessary.
| 742 | j.e Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:49:28am |
731 promethea
I think he's one of the most creative thinkers I have seen in my lifetime or read about in my history classes. I tell my friends that I think he is on a level with Harry Truman, and they go bug-eyed. They think I've lost it. But he has a great grasp of what needs to be done, and to hell with conventional thinkers who can't think their way out of a box.
They think I've lost it
i think so, too
PS: my grandma spell the same words about a person who has so much "long sight". he called "Führer"!!
AT ALL :
you are all dazzled of this waronterror-propaganda-rubbish. nobody can help you, sadly
what kind of facts did you have ? where do the facts come from? fox? whitehouse.gov?
against germans you can say "look at your history and shut your mouth" what do you know about learning about such a history ? US always sit down with big asses in his holy and glory country, egomaniacal assholes like you are blamed because USA have such a miserable call since 3 years. and nobody asks why.
but nevermind. 50% against this rightwing-pseudo-politican bush in US gives me a reason to hope. persons like you must learn his own lesson. german did. i am proud to be a part of old wise europe.
lots of fun searching wmds in beeka-valley
auf nimmerwiedersehen
j.e
| 743 | Atomic Redneck, Reaganite is in my prayers Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:51:05am |
Berliner,
If I think soldiers are barbarian killers? No, but I also think a portrayal of soldiers as "heroic and just" is wrong: If you are 18-22 years old, frightened in a foreign country with a gun, shit happens. It would to me, if I were a soldier. No Army's soldiers are filled with noble men, not doing any wrong. War is ugly and often unjust. Any different view is naive.
Like any other situation, right or wrong often depends on the context. If a soldier is defending his family and country from aggression, then he is heroic and just. Justice includes defending the innocent from harm, even if violence is necessary. Is it right to turn away from someone beating a little old lady to death on the street? Pacifism frequently involves sacrificing the defenseless.
| 744 |
Charles Tue, Mar 9, 2004 11:10:30am |
j.e. wrote:
my grandma spell the same words about a person who has so much "long sight". he called "Führer"!! ...
i am proud to be a part of old wise europe.
So your grandmother was a Nazi? I would estimate your age at about 16, then.
This would explain the terrible beauty of your argument, which has driven me insane. There, I am insane.
| 745 | dieter der deutsche Tue, Mar 9, 2004 11:14:00am |
#737
As George Orwell once said "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
George Orwell also said: "Political language - and with variations this is true of all political parties, from Conservatives to Anarchists - is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."
| 746 | silenus Tue, Mar 9, 2004 11:15:40am |
Don't mention the war!
/channeling Basil Faulty
| 748 |
Ariel Tue, Mar 9, 2004 11:17:21am |
Berliner #736,
I am just not as firm in this specific issue in recalling facts from memory as you are apparently. I could visit now the usual suspect-sits and have a big argumentation-battle - but it wouldn't be that fruitful, no?
I don't know exactly what you mean by fruitful. If you believe that there are facts that suppport your point-of-view, I think that it would be fruitful to hear them. If you simply believe what you believe (e.g. there can be no justification for destroying a runway in an airport, even if it is being used to further war aims of an opponent) then there really isn't much point in having a discussion at all. Facts count. Facts can lead one to develop opinions. Otherwise, you're just expostulating wildly and demonstrating your ignorance.
In this case, you've managed to do just that.
| 749 | Ed Moran: Das ist doch alles Kinderkacke hier! Tue, Mar 9, 2004 11:23:44am |
Charles
About your math. A forty year old with a sixty year old parent born in the last days of the Thousand Year Reich would have a grandparent who Seig Heil'd der Fuherer, no?
| 750 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 11:24:24am |
j.e
Bye!
Don't let the screen door hit ya
where the Good Lord split ya!
Funny kid.
Not hans material though
| 751 |
Dirk Diggler Tue, Mar 9, 2004 11:32:23am |
Don't mention the war!
/channeling Basil Faulty
What war?
/channeling John F*cking Kerry
| 752 |
sauerkraut Tue, Mar 9, 2004 11:32:24am |
#635 Berliner
Sorry for the late answer but at least other posters keep you busy. :-)
Of course there were debates within German society and especially among the German leftists about the RAF strategy but what stopped them in the end, IMHO, was the not-so-soft reaction of the state which deterred a lot of potential sympathizers from joining the terror cells.
So you're German? Where have you been in the 70s? Didn't you read any other newspaper than tabloid BILD or still played in Kindergarten back then?
Yes, I am from Germany. No, I am not a regular BILD-reader. I also read other newspapers even if I am more and more tired of their usual Evil USA stuff. And I think I have some knowledge about the 70s. Not everything is gleichgeschaltet these days so maybe I am entitled to disagree with you.
Concerning Schily: It is a well known fact that the lawyers RAF choose for their trials were part of their strategy to show the injustice and brutality of the system and Schily was willing to play that part. As far as I know he has always refused to talk about the things that were going on then. And the RAF had also ties with Middle East terror organizations. So this has nothing to do with the rights of defendants to have legal support but very much with the fact that he is the responsible minister for German internal security.
| 753 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 11:53:51am |
Hey sauerkraut you need to post more, mein freund!
And you and hans ze beeman can start an outreach to your LLL compatriots
| 754 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 12:13:59pm |
If you simply believe what you believe (e.g. there can be no justification for destroying a runway in an airport, even if it is being used to further war aims of an opponent) then there really isn't much point in having a discussion at all. Facts count. Facts can lead one to develop opinions.
I am a cynic who believes in total manipulation by language for propaganda-purposes - the Chomsky-angle again.
Alright, I heard now from you that this airport was used to transport weapons. Do you have any neutral sources for this claim, other than from the parties involved?
Okay, I googled now of this incident. Here is an article copied from the NY Times, stating that the airport had been mostly idle for the past 15 months and was destroyed earlier "in retaliation for suicide attacks, also bombing the airport's radar.". (Also a pic of the destroyed runway) No mentioning there of airport being used by arms-smugglers.
| 756 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 12:20:02pm |
#754 Berliner
Going home now. I've appreciated your comments and I think you've been a good sport. We obviously don't agree on a lot of things, but I hope you'll continue to visit. Auf Wiedersehen.
| 757 |
PIGLET Tue, Mar 9, 2004 12:28:25pm |
j.e.
I was going to tell you what I think of you in Yiddish,
but I couldn't find a stronge enough phrase,
so in dutch:
Ezel verkrachtende schijteter!
Who says American's ain't cultured. :-)
| 758 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 12:32:48pm |
Yes, I am from Germany. No, I am not a regular BILD-reader. I also read other newspapers even if I am more and more tired of their usual Evil USA stuff. And I think I have some knowledge about the 70s. Not everything is gleichgeschaltet these days so maybe I am entitled to disagree with you.
Aaaah, you a member of the Junge Union and a fan of Angie? ;-)
The German media was indeed quite biased during the Iraq-war - I turned to BBC during that time for relatively neutral reporting. (CNN was too US-patriotic for me, German media too negative)
Concerning Schily: It is a well known fact that the lawyers RAF choose for their trials were part of their strategy to show the injustice and brutality of the system and Schily was willing to play that part. As far as I know he has always refused to talk about the things that were going on then.
How shocking, a lawyer not willing to discuss his clients!
Lemme give you a bit of history lesson to also explain to our lurkers: "To show the injustice of the system" was a large motive for the entire student revolt of the late 60s/early 70s, not just for those terrorists, who emerged from that.
Part of the anger against the system stemmed from the fact that quite a few Nazi-judges survived and continued to speak verdicts "In the name of the people" as they did under the Nazis. (Like Baath-party in Iraq, you can not completely rebuild a system "fresh")
And one reason why the RAF picked industry-lobbyist Hans-Martin Schleyer in 1977 for a brutal terrorist-kidnapping (and then they murdered him) was that Schleyer also used to be a member of the SS during WWII. (but he was cleared under de-nazification as "harmless")
And re: Schily. He is today a hardcore law-n-order guy on security issues - any American doubting me shall google 'ashcroft schily' and find that Schily is quite good in working together with Ashcroft to strip us from our civil liberties. ;-)
| 759 |
David Tue, Mar 9, 2004 12:36:31pm |
#757 Piglet
LOL! Cultured indeed! Europeans and Arabs have at least given us some wonderful insults!
| 760 | j.e Tue, Mar 9, 2004 12:40:06pm |
Who says American's ain't cultured. :-)
hab ich nie behauptet
mir geht hier nur die ignoranz und selbstherrlichkeit auf den keks
mein vater sagte übrigens als er deutschland verließ " i go back to the world" welche rückschlüße man daraus wohl ziehen kann?
| 761 |
sauerkraut Tue, Mar 9, 2004 1:12:19pm |
#758 Berliner
You are really funny. Because I do not agree with you I am a member of Junge Union and fan of Angie? Big BS. Is that your style of discussion, are you this, are you that? In how far does this contribute to the discussion?
Lemme give you a bit of history lesson to also explain to our lurkers: "To show the injustice of the system" was a large motive for the entire student revolt of the late 60s/early 70s, not just for those terrorists, who emerged from that.
Apart from your Oberlehrer-style lecturing: That is indeed the difference between the student movement and the RAF, the former fought with (mainly) peaceful means while the latter resorted to terrorism. Obviously you are not able to tell the difference because in your view they both had the same goals.
And I was not asking for Schily revealing something about his clients but about the political side of the events. I haven't said that I think he's too liberal or something like that but only pointed to the fact that he was a tool of the terrorist during these trials and has never addressed this in an honest way.
| 762 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 1:33:59pm |
You are really funny. Because I do not agree with you I am a member of Junge Union and fan of Angie? Big BS. Is that your style of discussion, are you this, are you that? In how far does this contribute to the discussion?
Jesus Christ! The book of 'Germans and their humour' is indeed a short-story. Translate my earlier symbol: ";-)" and then come back.
Apart from your Oberlehrer-style lecturing: That is indeed the difference between the student movement and the RAF, the former fought with (mainly) peaceful means while the latter resorted to terrorism. Obviously you are not able to tell the difference because in your view they both had the same goals.
??? Where do we disagree? All back then shared the same goal: Revolution and overthrowing the existing system, which was stuck in old cemented structures, some Nazis still in office, etc.. Only the means differed, and drastically so. From peaceful sit-ins to demonstrations all the way to planting bombs and robbing banks. And of course, none of those groups had a real plan for "later", if the revolution ever had worked. (Anarchy?)
My point was only that it is a bit unfair to only smear Schily as some sort of terrorist-helper (and that reminded me of partisan PR). One has to view the larger picture of those times and the motives.
What was your point now? You don't think that terrorists deserve lawyers? Or you don't think someone defending terrorists should become a politician 25 years later? Or Schily hasn't repented enough in public for you and told you all the details? (Alright, actually a rather boring domestic German issue - point made, I guess)
| 763 | Tourist Tue, Mar 9, 2004 1:50:05pm |
And I was not asking for Schily revealing something about his clients but about the political side of the events. I haven't said that I think he's too liberal or something like that but only pointed to the fact that he was a tool of the terrorist during these trials and has never addressed this in an honest way.
Oh, I read interviews with Schily where he adressed these issues und pointed out his views. It did not sound like he considered himself a "tool".
I also have the impression of you being one of the very few passionate Angela Merkel followers here in germany, and it is interesting, that the other points Berliner mentioned - the Nazi-connections of some of the 1968-age-conservatives, which where never really discussed in the CDU, but accused by the students movement back then - are not worth a comment for you.
And for american readers really interested in frightening inner-german political discussions, the german conservative party CDU of Angela Merkel, and german antisemitism: google "CDU Hohmann" ...
| 764 |
sauerkraut Tue, Mar 9, 2004 2:27:10pm |
#762 Berliner
Jesus Christ! The book of 'Germans and their humour' is indeed a short-story. Translate my earlier symbol: ";-)" and then come back.
Okay, point taken, even if I still do not understand what this whole "Do you read this, are you member of that" business is good for.
Concerning the 68s we can basically agree on that, even if I think the RAF had a quite well-thought (from their perspective) idea about the society after the revolution which was lacking most parts of the movement.
And obviously we diagree about the responsibilities of politicians, I have not smeared Schily but talked about some facts. But you are right, that discussion will lead us nowhere.
#763 Tourist
I also have the impression of you being one of the very few passionate Angela Merkel followers here in germany, and it is interesting, that the other points Berliner mentioned - the Nazi-connections of some of the 1968-age-conservatives, which where never really discussed in the CDU, but accused by the students movement back then - are not worth a comment for you.
I have not addressed these points because I have really no problem with them. And it seemed to be quite futile to always state 'I agree' and so I concentrated on our dissenting views.
Talking about humor: First Berliner says I have no humor because I ignored his smile-tag and than you say the same Merkel thing but obviously not in a humorous way. Rather bizarre. So for you to understand: I'm not a fan of Merkel!
And for american readers really interested in frightening inner-german political discussions, the german conservative party CDU of Angela Merkel, and german antisemitism: google "CDU Hohmann" ...
Talking about smearing, it is really upsetting me that you imply that I am having sympathies for anti-Semites. Asshole.
| 765 | Tourist Tue, Mar 9, 2004 2:49:05pm |
Talking about smearing, it is really upsetting me that you imply that I am having sympathies for anti-Semites. Asshole.
Something went wrong here:
I was talking about parts of the CDU, not about you.
I have no reason to believe you are antisemite.
(And also, other parts of the CDU again are totally different, and in the end, Hohmann was expelled from it, but his thoughts had quite some sympathies among CDU-followers, and I mentioned that, because Angela Merkel, CDU-leader, supported the iraq war in opposition to Schroeder, and wanted germans to join.
Americans here might have noticed that, they seem to hate Schroeder and wait for a CDU-government in Germany, and as they are very sensitive regarding Israel, Germany and antisemitism, I thought they should also know these stories.)
| 766 |
sauerkraut Tue, Mar 9, 2004 3:25:25pm |
#765 Tourist
So, no connection CDU - Merkel - Hohmann - Old Nazis - sauerkraut?
If this was a misunderstanding, sorry.
Back to #763
It did not sound like he considered himself a "tool".
You would not expect him to say "Oh yes, I was a tool of the RAF terrorists", would you?
Good night.
| 767 |
papijoe Tue, Mar 9, 2004 4:04:28pm |
Just checking in on the thread while my daughter is occupied. Very interesting. I know nothing about German politics. Is there a German anti-idiotarian party?
Carry on.
| 768 | True Romance Tue, Mar 9, 2004 4:05:26pm |
"Spiegel online" is a lefties medium and believe me, I fight my battles every day there in the discussions forums for Israel and the USA (I think, I´m the most hated poster on "Spiegel online" ;-)))
For Israel? Arent you the one who declared about an Israeli:
"His dehumanized view is a classic example how left ideology drives out any empathy, any human sympathy and transforms it into purest zynism. To call him intellectual scum would be a too soft description."
I think you just like to talk dirty about jews, Hexose.
| 769 |
sauerkraut Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:18:30pm |
#767 papijoe
Is there a German anti-idiotarian party?
Not really. But maybe my compatriots can contribute to this question. If they are coming back...
I am out for some hours but will be back in the afternoon (CET).
| 770 |
norar Tue, Mar 9, 2004 9:36:03pm |
#730 Berliner
I love your views on how to catch terrorists who walk from "Palestine" to Israel. (Which is just across the street, incidentally. I have walked back and forth many times.)I guess real life is just like an action movie or a video game.
You mean you are in Israel?
Oh really, it's enough to know basic geograpgy to know that the country that never was, aka Palestine, is indeed "just across the street". Actually, according to the PA maps it's the same street.Unless you claim total ignorance of Israel's geography, you can't claim that one has to be in Israel to realise that. And I don't believe for a moment you don't know that, 'Berliner'.
| 771 |
David Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:07:35pm |
#77 norar
I read that "you mean you are in Israel?" as Berliner's surprise and incredulity at actually communicating with a real, live Israeli, not an Amerikan. Talking to Israelis here really makes you think of the reality of what that country has to endure on a daily basis. It's a tiny country, and there's a whole lot of seething genocidal maniacs just across the Green Line.
I don't think Berliner fully appreciates the reality of that.
Oh, and before anyone assumes to the contrary, I'm neither in Israel, nor am I in America.
| 772 | waxdax Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:13:15pm |
facts, facts, facts
1 = Bush has done a great job as President
...
6 = Bush has done a miserable job as President
topical:
1 160480 18.14%
2 5878 0.66%
3 3546 0.40%
4 12142 1.37%
5 57044 6.45%
6 645605 72.97%
...target definitely missed.
| 773 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:44:50pm |
Oh really, it's enough to know basic geograpgy to know that the country that never was, aka Palestine, is indeed "just across the street". Actually, according to the PA maps it's the same street.Unless you claim total ignorance of Israel's geography, you can't claim that one has to be in Israel to realise that. And I don't believe for a moment you don't know that, 'Berliner'.
The OP had written that _he_ has walked back and forth countless times. Thus my question if he lives there (or lived there). What's so difficult about that?
| 774 | Berliner Tue, Mar 9, 2004 10:52:12pm |
Talking to Israelis here really makes you think of the reality of what that country has to endure on a daily basis. It's a tiny country, and there's a whole lot of seething genocidal maniacs just across the Green Line.I don't think Berliner fully appreciates the reality of that.
I lived in a city with a wall dividing the city just 50 yards from my apartment. I'd seen that wall, the barbwire, the dogs and the guards almost everyday. And when I went on trips, I caught a glimpse of the six-digit number of Russian troops outside my part of the city, breathing down our necks.
While I certainly will never be fully aware of the emotion and the daily threats and paranoia for all parties involved down there, I am perhaps more aware than most of us here that it is indeed quite a difference "to live someplace" or to be talking about a situation from far away out of the safety of a comfy chair, as I had always thought of when Americans or West-Germans "theorized" about communism and about Berlin.
| 775 |
norar Wed, Mar 10, 2004 12:00:59am |
#773 Berliner
Oh really, it's enough to know basic geograpgy to know that the country that never was, aka Palestine, is indeed "just across the street". Actually, according to the PA maps it's the same street.Unless you claim total ignorance of Israel's geography, you can't claim that one has to be in Israel to realise that. And I don't believe for a moment you don't know that, 'Berliner'.The OP had written that _he_ has walked back and forth countless times. Thus my question if he lives there (or lived there). What's so difficult about that?
Yes OP had written that, but your question by itself implies that you accuse this person of lying.
My point, however, was and is that whether OP talks from personal experience or not does not matter. If you knew the geography of Israel (which is no small matter in the conflict) you would not try to discredit OP, because what he/she says is true and there are many places that you only need to cross the street to go from Israel to the "occupied" territories. And it's a fact that does not need "personal witness" to establish. You see, the 'Green Line' divided plenty of villages and towns (in addition to Jerusalem) in 1948, that were actually reunited by the Israeli "occupation" in 1967.
| 776 | Berliner Wed, Mar 10, 2004 12:38:30am |
Yes OP had written that, but your question by itself implies that you accuse this person of lying.My point, however, was and is that whether OP talks from personal experience or not does not matter. If you knew the geography of Israel (which is no small matter in the conflict) you would not try to discredit OP, because what he/she says is true and there are many places that you only need to cross the street to go from Israel to the "occupied" territories.
No, you totally misunderstood me. I asked because I wanted to know if I understood the OP correctly (English ain't my native tongue), because it does make a bit of a difference.
Perhaps it is a matter of greater respect, when you talk with someone who actually experienced rather difficult things themselves instead of "only" talking between people from an outside political viewpoint.
So I wasn't trying to discredit anyone's statement here, I was merely curious. Of course, we all can talk about everything either way and as a Berliner, I am well aware how border-lines can even cut through sidewalks.
| 777 | waxdax Wed, Mar 10, 2004 1:49:41am |
Now ladies & gentlemen & gaylords, voting has finished.
1 = Bush has done a great job as President
...
6 = Bush has done a miserable job as President
The result is as follows:
899.593 votes were casted:
1 163086 18.13% 163.086 votes
2 5879 0.65%
3 3547 0.39%
4 12204 1.36%
5 57430 6.38%
6 657447 73.08% 657.447 votes
I´d say you failed american wanna-bes.
The result of this freeping testifies a lousy
organisation. Look and learn from Germany.
Thank you for your attention and see you
at the next collapsing freeping.
bye
| 778 |
Smit Wed, Mar 10, 2004 2:23:28am |
waxdax - psst {glancing over shoulder} I hear that der Spiegel Online's junior webmaster is an illuminati who secretely manipulated the votes so that Bush would lose. This makes the freepers feel like they are in a losing minority so they try harder to subvert all right-thinking lefties.
They're clever I tell you...
| 780 | Tourist Wed, Mar 10, 2004 2:52:18am |
Hey Smit, nice try, but it is the other way round:
DER SPIEGEL manipulated nothing, they just brought two quite relaxed and funny articles about the guys here, and the links to this sites and the rest was done by the readers.
what remains, is the impression, that you US conservatives like to manipulate...enjoy your DIEBOLD voting machine elections.. ;)
| 781 |
Smit Wed, Mar 10, 2004 2:53:50am |
Damn, I had links proving it! But when I went to post them they had dissappeared.
I must archive more. I must be more orderly. I must be more organised. How else will the VRWC take over?
No wonder I'm not getting my cheques.
| 782 |
Smit Wed, Mar 10, 2004 3:02:35am |
Hi Tourist!
So if a few Americans write articles about it & their readers vote, then that's shameful manipulation and election rigging.
But if Der Spiegel writes a few humour impaired articles about their own poll, and publicises them, that's completely fine.
Oh and babe - I'm not a US conservative, but I do like manipulation. Especially sports massage.
| 783 | Tourist Wed, Mar 10, 2004 4:07:51am |
Smit
The "few" readers of freerepublic deleted their browser-cookies and voted again and again, and also used visual basic scripts to automate the voting process. Don't believe? Just read their proud statements. Sounds to me like manipulation. The general tone was like "Let's drive the German Left crazy" - as if the SPIEGEL would stand for the german left.
Is a poll in a german newsmagazine their business anyway? I never heard of germans manipulating american polls. Why this big interest in a foreign news magazine they never heard of before and are not even able to read ? I don't know if stuff like that really helps Bushs worldwide image. In the end, they had their conservative blogs full of germans driving THEM crazy, and the vote ended even less favourable for Bush.
I did not take part in the poll about Schroeder, that was on this page, because its not my business, and I did not care about it.
Der Spiegel didn't tell its readers to vote against Bush, the point of the articles was more, that all this is amusing and strange. And they were written after the manipulation.
But maybe we agree: All this is really kindergarten stuff.
Enough of this.
| 784 | Berliner Wed, Mar 10, 2004 4:11:31am |
SPIEGEL manipulates? Never! SPIEGEL is always totally impartial in its reporting: SPIEGEL is great and anyone else is evil. An equal opportunity-basher.
Alright, I gotta head off now to read the latest impartial headline-feature by SPIEGEL, titled Bush's war: The nose-dive of the winner - about how Washington's omni-power fantasies have been disillusioned in Iraq.
I wonder: Reading both SPIEGEL _and_ Freepers' forums at the same time could lead to schizophrenia!?
| 785 |
Smit Wed, Mar 10, 2004 4:40:06am |
Tourist & Berliner,
I wonder: Reading both SPIEGEL _and_ Freepers' forums at the same time could lead to schizophrenia!?
Only if you believe the two opinions are equal... I almost have sympathy with moral equivicators. Their brain must hurt. {They have a brain?}
If you really want schizoid paranoia (T-bone ref) try Indymedia.
But yes this was fun, albeit taken a little too seriously by some. {glancing at waxdax}
;)
| 786 |
papijoe Wed, Mar 10, 2004 4:56:02am |
#785 Smit
But yes this was fun, albeit taken a little too seriously by some. {glancing at waxdax}
Agreed. And it stimulated some interesting dialog.
Y'all come back now, ya hear?
| 787 |
Charles Wed, Mar 10, 2004 5:36:17am |
waxdax's jubilant, deliciously humiliating announcement of victory reminds me of the old Bavarian proverb: A fat man and a sprinkler are soon together.
| 788 |
papijoe Wed, Mar 10, 2004 5:37:40am |
#787 The Touchy Feelies
He's as happy as a little GIIIRRRL!
But he says he's not German.
| 789 |
papijoe Wed, Mar 10, 2004 5:40:12am |
787 Charles
Yikes! How did you change your nic like that?
| 790 |
Geepers Wed, Mar 10, 2004 5:55:18am |
Smit,
Especially sports massage.
Just one more reason to like Smit. ;-)
| 791 |
Geepers Wed, Mar 10, 2004 6:03:31am |
waxdax,
Do Der Spiegel polls normally get 900,000 votes? Or do you think maybe someone was jiggering the votes on the 6 side as well?
LGF Master Spy
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