May God bless the victims.

and here's hoping the islamists get what's coming to them, should Europe ever wake up.....

I say, this cartoon should be as widely distributed as possible.

Mr. Geisel was not a complete LLL through and thorugh.

(No, I'm not spamming --this is my last post! Enjoy!)

In a way, they're right, the answer of Afghanistan and Iraq is there.

But what was the question?

We're hopefully not going to stop for their temporary mental safety.

AQ pegged them.

Call em' dhimmis and stick a fork in them, they're done.

Picture#2

A woman hold a banner reading ‘Could this picture have cost 200 deaths?’ during a silent march through central Barcelona March 12, 2004. Traumatized Spaniards voted in droves in a general election thrown wide open by a new claim that al Qaeda rather than Basque separatists was behind the Madrid train bombs that killed 200 people last week. (Albert Gea/Reuters)

So beautiful and so dumb.

May I have your phone number?????

A woman hold a banner reading ‘Could this picture have cost 200 deaths?’

I don't think pictures kill people. Bombs do.

A demonstrator dressed as a Guantanamo prisoner protests in Madrid’s central Puerta del Sol, March 13, 2004. The demonstrators were calling for an explanation from the Popular Party (PP) Secretary General and Prime Ministerial candidate Mariano Rajoy as to their conviction of ETA’s involvement in the deadly March 11, 2004 bombings. REUTERS/Andrea Comas

I want to beat the shit out of this guy. Then maybe I'll tell him how much better Gitmo is than a Saudi or Iranian prison.

Very discouraging. But it's just Spain, slightly more of a world power than France. Sure, it's a sign that "old Europe" is totally lost with its head in the sand.

We can beat the terrorists without them.

The scary thing is Al Queda will learn from this it should carry out last-minute election attacks against other democracies like the U.S. of A.

That poor girl has it all wrong. Rove did it.

As I have said before. The real issue between Spain and Islam is not Iraq, or Afghanistan, or even Israel, it is the Reconquista. The only way to make an islamofacist to give up a grudge is to kill him.

Works for me.

And how many lives did this picture cost?

[Link: www.dhm.de...]

#4 logger phd

Grow a beard and change your name to Osama, and she'd bend over for you in no time.

#2

Excellent! That could not be more appropriate.

The demonstrators were calling for an explanation from the Popular Party (PP) Secretary General and Prime Ministerial candidate Mariano Rajoy as to their conviction of ETA’s involvement in the deadly March 11, 2004 bombings.

I hope a PP spokesman has the balls to say something like, "because if we had accused Islamic militants you mouth-breathing commies would have been shrieking 'Islamophobia!!!', you commie ****."

What a miserable day.

How'd they get one of the members of KISS to dress up like a Guantanamo inmate?

I dont know why this is so shocking to anyone. The Spanish were overwhelmingly against the war in Iraq, against the better judgement of their leader. For those people, the explosions only reify their original beliefs that participating in the war would only make them a target. Nevermind the reality that the Islamists have also killed frenchmen for the same reason they will continue to kill Spanish people, because they are infidels. 200 lives isnt going to change the culture of appeasement so prevalent in Europe. Heck, even when Germany overtook the Rhineland and Czecholslovakia, it still didn't cause concern for Europeans. Neville Camberlain had a discussion with Hitler, and pretty much told the Czech people, "shit happens, but we gotta live in peace". Europe simply sacrificed the freedom of an entire people so that they can have a few more years of ignorant blissful solitude. To get such a response in the face of so stark a threat as Hitler and his military machine, what makes you think these people will do anything in the face of a hidden giant such as Islam??? Pull the covers over your eyes, claim the high ground, go to sleep, and hope it all goes away. Same now as it was then.

The unasked question is: "How many lives did this picture save?"

Now, the question is, what happens if/when more Jihadi bombs go off in Spain some time after the election? What will the socialists do then?

Not that that will happen any time soon-- the terrorists have brains enough to know not to do that.
Then again, they did make Admiral Yamamoto's mistake of waking a sleeping giant.

Wow, all I can say is wow. Spain's leaders stand with the U.S. in the quest to bring AQ to justice and is thus attacked. And the dumb fucks in Spain blame their leaders for the attack instead of the terrorists.

Whatever you do, don't blame the terrorists.

Since that was so easy, maybe Osama will try to get this muslim land back next.

As predicted by so many on this site, the leftists won in Spain. Sharia timetable is back on schedule.

No doubt the Kerry people in the USA are cheering right now.

And happiest of all are the terrorists. They have won a victory through murder, just as they have so many times in the past.

There were Spanish people on this site the last couple of days chastising the rest of us for writing Europe off. What do they say now?

Sigh. Didn't think the day would come so soon for Spain to kneel down so easily. The fun childhood trips, the relatives still living there. Shit, the trip next month my mom and sister are taking.

Now this. Depressing. Heap the scorn on them, Charles. Pile it high.

It's strange that the religion that historically conquered Spain and was a large antagonist for centuries couldn't be responsible for this. Instead blame the allies.

This makes no sense. If 3 moslem Moroccans and 2 Indians bombed the hell out of Madrid, blame Aznar, Bush, and Blair. Don't stand up to the evil, islam. Step aside and let it in....tolerantly. It all makes sense now.

Lay down for islam. They deserve Spain and Europe. Only our barbarian ancestors stopped the enlightenment at Poiters and finally at the gates of Vienna. That barbarian Bush is picking on the most peaceful, tolerant, brotherly religion that ever existed.

Quit pickin on em. They only want peace with Europe.... after "settling scores", invasion, conquest, and conversion.

This Al Qaeda victory in the application of terror to influence an election will guarantee that there will be attacks in America to influence our election in JFKerry(D)'s favor in October of this year. When innocent American's die... thank the Socialists of Spain and the explicitly stated policies of JFKerry(D) for their recruitment to the (D)ummocrit campaign.

OT Kaus files:
Senator Kerry takes a stand on Cuba: From a news report in today's Miami Herald ...

''I'm pretty tough on Castro, because I think he's running one of the last vestiges of a Stalinist secret police government in the world,'' Kerry told WPLG-ABC 10 reporter Michael Putney in an interview to be aired at 11:30 this morning.

Then, reaching back eight years to one of the more significant efforts to toughen sanctions on the communist island, Kerry volunteered: ``And I voted for the Helms-Burton legislation to be tough on companies that deal with him.''

It seemed the correct answer in a year in which Democratic strategists think they can make a play for at least a portion of the important Cuban-American vote -- as they did in 1996 when more than three in 10 backed President Clinton's reelection after he signed the sanctions measure written by Sen. Jesse Helms and Rep. Dan Burton.

There is only one problem: Kerry voted against it. ...

But there are also constant reminders that Kerry struggles with the complexities of Cuba. Asked in the Herald interview last year about sending Elián back to Cuba, Kerry was blunt: ``I didn't agree with that.''

But when he was asked to elaborate, Kerry acknowledged that he agreed the boy should have been with his father.

So what didn't he agree with?

''I didn't like the way they did it. I thought the process was butchered,'' he said.

The Kerry campaign philosophy: "That'll snow 'em!" ... 10:24 A.M.
lassic Kaus:

[Link: slate.msn.com...]

I hate Spain. May the Moors ride over them and slaughter them and rape their women and enslave their children. What pathetic cowards!

Guess this means it's totally up to us, the Brits, Australians, Israelis and Indians. The Spanish electorate has proven that Europeans have absolutely no intention of even defending themselves, much less taking the battle to the enemy.

Look, the Popular Party in Spain blew it big time. Seems like more than the margin fo victory were royally pissed about the way the gov handled the post attack blame game - the ETA gambit, the real islamic perpetration being held back and released drop by drop . . .

They managed it poorly. And we all lose.

The USEFUL IDIOTS have their day.

CNN is reporting that one of the Moroccans arrested in Spain is connected to the bombing of a synagogue in Casablanca last year.

#26

The Brits have been pussified by decades of misgovernment, so don't rely on them.

Here's your future, España

I have to wonder How The Iraqis are reacting to the news that this win in Spain will pull out some soldiers they have come to rely upon?

If I were an Iraqi, I would see todays results in a rather gloomy fashion and wonder what might become of them should Kerry win in November?

We shall see the real outcome when the Socialist Government makes the call on the troops. Will they yank them out of Iraq, or will the realize that this would only be feeding the alligator?

Spain has one last chance to reedem herself.

If she allows herself to be cowed and manipulated - which Eurowenie will be next to fold after getting bitch-slapped by the Islamofacists?

Looks like we Americans are going to have to save Europe's ass yet again.

"By the blood of our people are your lands kept safe!"
Boromir of Gondor

#15 friend

This reminds me that in some speech some time ago Sharon said that Israel will not be the Czecholslovakia of the current conflict. He was harshly criticised for it by the US, but this is exactly the direction things are going.

#27 Maine's Michael : Do 1000 less Spanish troops in Iraq really matter in the grand scheme? It's not like they had anything like the 4th ID in there...

At least the French will be happy, as Europe now has a new laughing stock.

#37 Pug

LOL!

#37 Pug: Last I recall, Poland and Italy are with us.

Stupidity.
Cowardice.
Whichever reason for Spanish vote, the final result is a vote to become extinct.
Someone kills your people and then you apologise for making them angry with you!
They should have been out with placards saying ROP,RIP. (Rest in pieces)

#40 Peter:

to be honest, lots of people honestly believe that the 3/11 attack was in retaliation for Spanish troops in Iraq. it's another thing whether or not you believe in appeasing Al Queda, but the fact is Spain got bombed on the eve of the election for the reason that Spain contributed to American-led WOT. At least you can admit that.

For the Spanish population to be cowed into French-like submission by a few threats & attacks is pathetic…but expected. Unfortunately, Spain has a long tradition of being an unreliable ally and tends to fold in the face of any real adversity.

It appears that the ‘under-30’ vote tipped the scales in favor of the socialists. This is becoming a seriously disturbing trend in politics. Remember, a good chunk of Howlin’ Howard Dean’s support was from the politically immature, hippie-educated under-30 crowd. People these days seem to be shaping their political opinions on what their favorite celebrity or hairdresser says (..kinda like my fellow Canadians..), as opposed to actually thinking for themselves….

The only two ways I can see in reversing this trend; one can’t be eligible to vote until age 30, or potential voters must pass a mandatory IQ test standard.

I get the feeling that if the bombings were down to AQ then they have caused 'regime change' in Spain quicker and more effectively than the US ever possibly could hope in Iraq.

I think the US and the UK will now have lost a vital ally in the war on terror and I think the terrorsists in AQ whether thay did or not, will only take note and become more bold.

As far as the (now usual) slating of the UK goes, as usual you guys in the US love to stick the knife in. It's getting boring. We are your closest ally ffs and at the end of the day we have always stood by and always will stand by the US! No matter what leftist government is on power and without exception! So why don't you lot show a bit of respect for people that have also stuck their necks on the line to back you up?

#42 realist:

I agree, there needs to be an IQ test and raise the age requirement. You need to have lived a little in order to have the power to influence public policy through a vote.

#43 JWarrior:

How did you know that the Socialists were NOT going to win today despite the 3/11 bombings? To give AQ such credit is not justified.

#42 Realist

I don't know if you said it jokingly, but I think that a minimum test , to filter the voters, will be, early or later, the only way to stop the haters of democracy from getting a majority of votes everywhere in the world.

#43 JWarrior:

Didn't the latest polls in the UK show 80% disapproval of Blair and the WOT?

In the eyes of AQ bringing down a right wing government and replacing them with leftists is a victory.

If they try the same tactics in the UK, they will only succeed in making our own leftist government look weak which in turn would cause a shift of power to the right. This is blatantly not what AQ and co would want.

Make no mistake, today was a great triumph for the forces of darkness, and an immense tragedy for the Western World. Today our enemies proved that not only can their bombs destroy people physically, they can also impair the ability to reason and the resolve to confront an indefatigable opponent. In their anger and despair, the Spanish people allowed themselves to be manipulated by the totaliterrorists into deflecting their anger at the wrong target. As a result, the world we live in has become even more perilous and uncertain.

Will Poland and Italy react this way after they get hit by AQ?

The terrorists have learned a great lesson in Spain...the power of a few bombs. Europeans, and perhaps Americans, can now look forward to similar election "campaigns" by the Islamofascists.

Go back to the picture of the woman above - look at the strange vindication in her eyes. That is what its about folks.
A group that years for economic depression, failure in Iraq, Bombs in America, and terrorists everywhere - what a strange, distressing way to want to assume power. But hey, its working. And the woman above? She CAN smirk. Soon after this picture was taken I'm sure she was laughing.

The Spanish population should know that this will now encourage ETA to act more like al Qaeda.

DANEgerus & Cornholio -

Personally, I'm not worrying that Al Q will try to ensure a John Effin' Kerry victory via a mass-casualty attack before November. When we're tempted to get pessimistic, we need to remember that Americans are just a totally different kind of critter than the garden-variety residents of Eurostan.

Don't forget that (J-Effin-K's lies to the contrary) post-9/11 European public opinion turned against us long before Iraq was publicly discussed as target #2 in the WoT. The second it became clear we'd act with overwhelming military force, the candles and flowers were replaced by the papier-mache puppets and "BusHitler" signs.

Despite Mr. Bush's currently low overall approval ratings, opinion polls still indicate that a substantial majority of the electorate trusts his approach to the WoT vs. the Dems' "Neville Chamberlain Lite" philosophy. Also, remember that Reagan in spring '84 and Bush I in 'spring '88 were behind Mondull and Dukakis in the polls.

A big attack pre-November will simply re-ignite the anger and resolve that the Dems and their filthy, fifth-column LLL media allies have worked so hard to extinguish since 9/11. The gloves would come completely off at that point.

A bomb in Britain and these folks will have an outright Bacchanal

The only two ways I can see in reversing this trend; one can’t be eligible to vote until age 30, or potential voters must pass a mandatory IQ test standard.

Obviously there are elections to the rule but sadly I must agree!

Especially so in Spain where i heard that over 2 million YOUNG voters, voting with emotion not IQ voted enmasse for the first time in their lives.

If they havent ever voted before, nor shown enough care to do so, does that make them qualified to understand the world today?

No......but, this is the way democracy works!

52 Al-Qaeda For Kerry:

I don't know why that woman would be smirking, but it can't be about anything good. It's a sad testament that people can be so incredibly stupid as to be manipulated by the forces of darkness to believe in such nonsense that Bush/Blair is more dangerous then Bin laden.

I feel like puking when I see those pictures - it makes me scared and sad and mad all at once. Those Spanish people are so delusional - haven't they heard that Osama dreamt about Andulusia (spelling?) long before Spain stood up with America in Afganistan and Iraq? How can socialists join up with Islamists?

Americans G-d bless you!

OT:

Retaliation

Israeli Helicopters Strike Gaza -Witnesses

A car swarm or two on the horizon?

If I was King Kenny of Morocco I would immediately claim those small islands over which they fought with Spain. To begin with.

Then there's the Rock of Gibraltar.

A little time later and all Dutch moroccans can safely return, good riddance and no thanks, to their ancient caliphate of Cordoba to end on a positive note.

#47

The average Brit on the street is pro-WOT and anti-Labour. The socialists are running the country into the ground, taxing us out of our eye balls and lying to cover their dodgy dealings. We have more strikes now than we had in 20 years becuase the unions think the gov is a soft touch.

Blair is hated by members of his own party, his time is ticking!

I would be willing to bet a large amount that the socialists time in power is coming to an end in Britain and it can't come too soon!

#36 Disturbed Individual

Do 1000 less Spanish troops in Iraq really matter in the grand scheme? It's not like they had anything like the 4th ID in there

There's a few layers of the onon here. The significance is symbolic if spain pulls out, and it encourages the enemy to try similar election games elswhere, as others have pointed out.

It's a way of isolating the US, at a time when we are trying to get more of the world on board with meaningful action against islamic fascists.

They are trying to turn the US into another Israel, politically.

It's bad enough the US has encouraged this type of political dynamic by not supporting Israel fully as it faces an onslaught of terror. It seems the owlrd now takes it's cue from the fact that the US seems to believe that as forms of terror against Israel are somehow acceptable to a certain degree (certainly not worthy of risking arafat's life and saudi displeasure over), other terror events such as the spanish attack are somehow understandable as well as ahving reasonable root causes.

Just as modern terror originated gainsts Israel, so does it's evolution somehow hinge upon the reaction of the world to terror against Israel.

I guess that if one looked at it after a few glasses of wine (such as I am) one can say that the spanish electoral fiasco is the end result of (or at least significantly contributed to by) a few decades of shitty american state department policy towards Israel and the arab world.

#56 ShiksaGrrrl :

I agree the age limit should be raised to 30. Even if someone is under 30 that espouses the correct views on the WOT, it is mostl likely that they are just parroting a conservative idol like Rush Limbaugh instead of having reasoned it out on their own through education and experience. I'm 27 myself and though I believe I have reasoned things out, I'm willing to give up my right to vote for 3 more years in order to cancel out all the LLL fools my age.

OT from Debka

Saturday, Abu Walid, Saudi commander of al Qaeda Chechen contingent, threatened strike against Moscow if Putin reelected....Huge fire begins to consume landmark 19th century Moscow exhibition hall near Kremlin minutes after end of Russian voting and exit poll awards Putin landslide 68 percent victory. No evidence of cause.

#61 JWarrior -

I'm sadly under-informed about UK politics. What can you tell us about who'd become PM if the Tories win next time around? Or is is too much to hope they've kept the Iron Lady in a super-secret age-suspension chamber??

Hmmmm...after all the talk of unilateralism we suddenly have "an important ally". Spain drops away and now they're an important ally. After all the hollow quips of "Spain and her 1,000 troops" now it's the end of the world that they will probably pull out.

#58 ex-liberal

I don't know about you, but today more than ever I am convinced that the U.S. of A. is the only thing standing between the Jewish People and anihilation. Between the Christian people too, but the forces of darkness, like the Nazis before them, are coming for the Jews first.

Fortunately, I like Andalusian music - I mean the genre that was born in Muslim Andalucia and merged Spanish and Arabic/Muslim musical elements, a genre that soon migrated to North Africa and later on adopted and further developed by Maghrebian Jews.

I'm soooooo happy at the chance of having more musically delightful genres mixing Spanish and Muslim music in the future Al Andalous (I wouldn't count on any Jewish contribution to this future Andalusian music though).

# 51 Paul

"The terrorists have learned a lesson"

You exactly correct. A bomb or two or ten
and a cowed populace will declare surrender.

I'm now worried about an "October Surprise"
AQ might have for us here in America.

Not so much that it would change opinions -
it would not - but just the carnage and
destruction they might cause.

You are so dumb. But you are so hot!!! I never thought I'd be falling for a dhimmi.

Fighting the last war is still a very bad idea.

Traditional military doctrine and coalitions are not going to defeat this evil.

Taking out...we'll never do this...the states that sponser terrorism won't do the trick.

Do we have the courage to say that we must destroy or thoroughly reform Islam.?

I doubt if we have the will. Socialism and political correctness have sapped our energy as they have the Spaniards.

They don't want territory. They don't want reparations. They don't want our resources.

They simply want to destroy us.

Deal with that reality or die.

#70 JB

Get a grip, she's Spanish. Lower that camera and you find a butt that streches across two football fields.

SoCalJustice (#59)

A good start.

Let's bear down people. Take a deep breath. If Spain wants to live life as a conquered nation...so be it. That ain't gonna happen in these here neck of the woods.

Too bad for the Spainish people. Not only do they get attacked by Islamic Terrorists, now they will be attacked by their own socialist government. I hope they don't fare as poorly as I fear.

But they might be right. This might keep Al Queda off their backs for a little while.

On the other hand, this war will probably last decades. Spain will probably be hit again.

And now, the U.S. will probably be hit again, too. Al Queda will be encouraged by its ability to affect the outcome of an election in Spain.

But please consider this: Is the U.S. to blame for what happened to Anzar's Party, the People's Party if that is its correct name?

The U.S. did not need Spain's support or cooperation for the war in Iraq. It was the U.S.'s fear of being called "Unilateralists" that lead to the U.S.'s request for support from Spain.

But there is no shame in Unilateralism and the U.S. should have stated this clearly from the begining and left Spain out of it.

The result of the Spanish election is "blowback."

Had Spain been allowed to remain "neutral," the effect of the March 11 attack on Spain might have had a very different effect on the Spanish psyche.

But what happened in Spain is what always happens when you try to "have it both ways" or "please everybody." The waters get muddled.

65 Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo)

Michael Howard is the current leader of the Tories. He is actually a Jew although I don't think he is practising. He was home seccy under the last Tory government and despite being described as having 'something of the night about him', he seems a good leader, an intelligent man and a viable alternative to that sneering liar Blair.

I grew up in the Thatcher days and I remember many people would moan about her. But to be honest looking back, I think the majority of the British population would have her back today.We took the days of Maggie for granted. We need her type of leadership and common sense now more than ever.

JWarrior,

You tell 'em! A terrorist bombing in either the UK or the US would have the opposite effect as it seems to have had in Spain. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for Japan, or Korea, or some of our other allies.

Defeats in this war will not come on the battlefields. Our enemies know that as well as we do, if not better (for all the handwringing during the drive through Iraq, you'd think the American army had been outmatched by a bunch of jihadis with pickup trucks and thirty year old tanks). Any setbacks that occur will be on the homefronts - a failure of resolve, not of tactics. America's resolve will not falter, nor will England's.

-BF

#26 Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo)

You mean Israelis and Indians. UK will vote its way out in case of a similar attack there and maybe even without it, and US will be lead by Kerry.

#70 JB

Really? I'd say 6/10, dhimmitude aside of course.

#72 TomMoon

LOL!

#71 Esteban:

In December 1941, things looked very bleak for the Russians. but they went on the offensive and it was all over for the Germans after that. We as the West are in December 1941 right now and we need to fight back.

Merde in France is reporting that Guy Milliere has finally found a publisher for his book "Who's Afraid of Islam?" though the title is in French. I guess after the Madrid bombing the climate was right and the French, being just up the road, so-to-speak, railwise and roadwise from Spain, they are, despite the results of this election, now waiting for the 'other shoe to fall'.

That means, that though the Spanish didn't see the connection to what they did today, I have no doubt the Italians, Greece and French do and they will be altering their playbooks to accommdate this menace.

That is not to say that anyone really knows yet how to deal with or identify individuals of this death cult who may be dangerous but having the national mindset turn to face the enemy is a big start. If French, Italian, Greek and British writers finally stop the 'blame America' game and start a true debate on what to do about this evil, will be far more useful than to sit like a rabbit on a freeway and blaming the US and her allies.

For one thing, why are we recycling these devils? Once convicted of terrorism it should become a death sentence, extra other crimes and legal remedies.

#76 JWarrior

He is actually a Jew although I don't think he is practising.

Reform, IIRC. He refused to read from the New Testament in a recent service.

OK, so the Spanish have voted in an appeasement government -- big whoop. Now we have a nice experiment set up to see what will happen when a country responds to savagry by giving the savages what they want. (As if Europe in the 1930s didn't already provide enough lessons, but be that as it may ...)

Let's turn on our mind-reading machine and crystal ball and see if we can make some predictions, shall we?

I'm an Al-Qaida savage sitting in my little flat in, say, Cairo, and I look at things and say, "Well, we told them not to come, and they didn't listen; we wrote editorials in the state newspaper, and they didn't listen; we protested in the streets, and they didn't listen; and we shot at their soldiers in Iraq, and they didn't listen. But then we slaughtered their women and children in their capital, and that got some results. Good, now we know what works."

So fast forward to 6 months from now and the Spanish troops are pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan. But wait! They've left a couple of advisors in Baghdad, and they recognize the new government as legitimate. OK, no worries, we'll bomb Madrid a couple of more times and that'll get them out.

Fast forward to next year. Spain has pulled out completely and become dutifully anti-American. All is good. But our operatives in Spain are getting some friction from local governments over our attempt to live under sharia law in our neighborhoods. OK, no biggie ... we bomb the fuck out of a couple of schools and that'll show 'em. This sure saves us all the time and effort we put into demonstrations and editorials ... another couple of bombings and these people'll give us whatever we want.

Fast forward to ten years from now. Good old Spain is really coming along now. We got sharia law in our historic provinces, and the government considers us a protected class of people who can live on the dole and immigrate freely. But they won't close those damned movie houses in Madrid that show all those R-rated movies. No worries ... I'll send a letter to the paper and threaten you-know-what ... our big rally on 3/11/2014 will remind them, you know ...

Of course, we already know what happens when you ignore -- or worse, appease -- terrorists, but apparently the Spanish are unaware of them. "Peace in our time," anyone? The most notorious example: Clinton's law-enforcement policy toward the 1993 twin tower bombings, which resulted in 9/11.

If Spain wants to spread their legs for Muslim savages, don't let me stop them. I'll check backin 15 years and see how it's working out for 'em.

To be fair Aznar was retiring and his replacement has not been proven in the job. It is possible that if Aznar had been the one running for the PP, he would have won.

#77 BacksightForethought

I agree 100%, it is all down to our resolve and the resolve of our governments to stand up to the terrorism.

Unfortunately, Spain's has just broken :(

If the UK will stand with the US under a socialist gov, it will stand twice as much under a Tory gov.

But Jesus - you gotta' feel bad for Aznar and his boys. Seriously. They put their political necks on the line and got 'em chopped off. On the news when the Socialists claimed victory - the poor bastard looked, I don't know - dazed. The guy did the good, righteous thing and got bent over the fence for it. How do you think THAT guy feels. Bless you Jose' Maria. You may have half a woman's name, but you're all man baby. In all sincerity, though, Aznar is to be lauded, applauded, and then pitied.

And Osama says............................VOTE KERRY

If I recall correctly, Europe was appeasing the Arabs back in 70's as they were afraid of higher oil prices.

#78 the new kid -

I might have felt the same re the UK's steadfastness in the WoT, but JWarrior & other UK visitors to this forum make me optimistic that typical UK common sense will win through in the end.

As for the US being "led by Kerry", I wouldn't be wagering too many beers on that premise. J-Effin'-K's been stupid enough to make foreign/defense policy and the WoT a central issue of the campaign, and every opinion poll indicates that that's the Republicans' single strongest area. Once Karl Rove sets the hounds loose, it's going to be last call & lights out for the Quislingcrats.

#77 BF

Our enemies know that as well as we do, if not better (for all the handwringing during the drive through Iraq, you'd think the American army had been outmatched by a bunch of jihadis with pickup trucks and thirty year old tanks).

Calls to mind another Seuss great I found:
Stop wringing the hands

#70 JB

Get an eyeful now; soon she'll be just another burkha-bedecked babe.

#83

Brett - that was beautiful

#7 Cornholio, you are wrong. Spain is rather less of a world power than France. You can indeed win without us; it is lucky, for you will have to.

Shame on us. And woe on us too.

#27 Maine's Michael, please stop mindlessly parroting leftist conspiracy theories: the "ETA gambit" was no gambit. It was the first reasonable guess. ETA members had been arrested the previous week heading to Madrid with 500 kilos of explosives (some 100 kilos were used on Thursday). ETA members had placed two backpacks with explosives in a train headed to Madrid last Christmas. Whom must we have suspected? Genghis Khan?

#45 Disturbed Individual: the latest polls projected a clear PP victory, on the verge of an absolute majority of seats. Now we have a PP defeat. That's how we know it.

I agree with a previous post that said this will set up an experiment for the whole world to see what happens when you directly appease Al Queda by doing regime change at home. We'll see what happens.

i live in the south of spain, seville. almost everybody here is blaming themselves and jose maria aznar instead of the lunatics who actually did it. one of the posts asked the question will ever wake up. the answer here in spain at least is no. its quite sad to hear people complaining about how brutal franco was and at the smae time seeing people demonstrating against the removal of a dictator a million times worse than general franco. to this day the masses of ignorant spanish people and chanting "no a la guerra" as if its that simple. very few have actually come to face it that the islamofacists are willing to kill anybody, and that blaming ourselves or our governments is useless.

Court clears Palestinians of bomb charge

Some more great fuc*ing news for a Sunday. Time to eat and grab a few +10 drinks.

This is a goldmine!

(Last Seuss post. "You're on your own." --Arnold)

#46 JWarrior

In the eyes of AQ bringing down a right wing government and replacing them with leftists is a victory.If they try the same tactics in the UK, they will only succeed in making our own leftist government look weak which in turn would cause a shift of power to the right. This is blatantly not what AQ and co would want.

If AQ were to hit the UK with the same tactics, the outcome is likely to be a partial or complete breakdown of civic order. Given the very weak support for the Conservative Party in the country, no "shift of power to the right" could possibly result in it forming a viable alternative government. The likely scenario is a state of national emergency, and the appointment of a military government. How effective that would be remains to be seen.

#89 Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo)

You guys in the USA CANNOT let Kerry even sniff power. Without a strong America our whole world and civilisation is screwed!

I was in Spain last spring. In Madrid I saw some graffitti denouncing Bush and America as fascists. In the countryside south of Madrid I saw a large sign that was apparently pro-Palestinian. So one has to allow for a significant idiotarian element.

Spain has a large number of unassimilated Moslems. In Madrid you get warned about keeping a close eye on luggage because many North African immigrants are unemployed and don't qualify for social benefits; they make a living stealing luggage. One North African stole my passport, returned it, and then tried to trick me into giving him a reward (so I would have to get out my wallet). To be sure, Spain has a long tradition of pickpockets.

#72 Tom Moon

You're confusing them with Mexicans.

(I declare, sitting on my ¼ Mexican peasant hips.)

Interesting to see how, as soon as the Spanish electorate makes a decision that lgfers don't like, everyone's ready to pile onto the Spanish nation as inherently degenerate and unworthy of an American alliance.

Just goes to show how little durability American--or, at least, lgfer--regard can claim.

Somewhat OT:

"Palestinians" gather in a solemn assembly to mourn the victims of today's terror bombings.

/sarcasm

#93 Marzo . . .

It sounds like you're writing from Spain. If so, please post more comments and keep us informed.

Thanks!

#98 halldor

Are you bigel in disguise?

I'm telling you the conservatives in this country are in a better situation and more together than they have been in the last fifteen years. Blair is making mistakes all over the place and he is living on borrowed time, even with his own party. The right in the UK is being listened to because the left has proved itself incompetent on a daily basis.

If you think some sort of marshall law would ever be put into place in England you are living in bigel world. It just isn't the English way, old bean.

Now you can either believe what I say as a UK citizen living everyday of their life for the last 30 years in the country or you can believe what you want on the basis of second hand sources you happen to read in the media.

The choice is yours!

#92   Al-Qaeda For Kerry,
#94   Disturbed Individual,

Glad I captured not only my only feelings about this.

What stumps me about paralysis in the face of many political decisions is that we don't even need complicated experiments to figure out what to do: we already have trial-and-error examples from which to learn, but no one remembers them.

Do you want to know what happens when Israel pulls out of occupied territories and gives land to Palestinians? Check out how things are going along the bloody Lebanese border.

What to know what happens when a nice-guy liberal tries to run the USA? Read up on the Carter administration.

Want to know what happens when a liberal Democrat tries to run New York City? Talk to someone who suffered under the Dinkins administration.

Think an Al-Qaida-run government is some innocuous cultural variation enjoyed by many people in other countries? Look at the pictures from the Taliban regime.

Think Socialism is grand? Talk to former Soviet subjects.

Appeasement as a international strategy? Does anyone really want to be France?

logger phd (#97),

Iron Fist turned me on to that site a while back. I looked at each and every one of Dr. Seuss's political cartoons. They give some great insight into what was the contemporaneous mood of the country was. I just wish he would have continued through out the war and beyond. He has an amazing ability to illustrate and a certain wit that is at once insightful and cutting. Great stuff there.

#102 Randy McDonald

LGFers are pissed because the Spanish caved to al-Qa'eda. Simple enough to grasp, right?

#95 owen . . .

Please keep posting from Spain. It's great to get direct information.

Thanks.

I tlooks like Juan from Spain may have posted on another thread his (negative) reaction.

Eesh.

#95 owen 3/14/2004 04:01PM PST

i live in the south of spain, seville.

Hi Owen,

First, I would like to say my thoughts and feelings are with the Spainish people in light of the events of last week.

As #109 says, please keep us updated on events in Spain. Especially as these events will now have a huge political effect that could alter the fabric of your society to an extent that none of us could have seen just three days ago.

Second, I support Arsenal, the team that just bought Hose Antonio Reyes from Seville. I just got to say your loss is our gain! That guy can play football! Thanks for selling him to us!

Regarding the sign #70's hottie is holding, I think THIS may be a photo responsible for more than a few deaths.

Hark! What's that whispery, fluttering sound?
Oh, I recognize it now. Not to worry.
It's just the sound of chickens about to return to the roost.

To paraphrase Henry Mencken, the Spanish electorate are about to get what they want.
Good and hard!

105 JWarrior

Well said. As a Brit living in London (therefore potentially vulnerable) I get seriously pissed off with some of the sweeping and ill informed generalisations made about the UK by some of the Americans on this site, not mentioning any names...

UK is not like the rest of Europe. We've lost people in Iraq fighting on the side of the US, not that this gets much of a mention in the US media. Plus we've faced terrorism from the IRA, partially funded pre 9/11 by Irish-Americans with sentimental attachments to the old country.

We're on you're side and you're our best hope. Read the Telegraph, not the Guardian!!!

Instapundit's calling today a black day for civilization. The Democratic websites like Daily Kos are crowing victory.

The War on Terror will never end until the West is completly unified on victory. As long as there exist a substantial number of people who believe that appeasement will prevent attacks, this War will never end.

America is the last, best hope for the freedom of the world. While there remain allies of America in parts of Europe, they are a minority, and their leaders may suffer the fate of the Popular Party in Spain. If the 20th Century has taught us one lesson, it is that without America, appeasement would've led to the end of Civilization in Europe as we know it. Nearly twice. There can be no expectation that any country, even Britian, will be on the side of civilization for much longer. Terrorists are always emboldened by their success (as we know from Somalia), and this is a success that they will use in the future.

Poland is next. They are the weakest link after Spain. Their populace and politics might be similar. And if not, more bombings can change that, and the EuroPress will be there to lead them to the right answer. Poland has shown great resolve so far, but they are next. And then Australia.

We are living in the most dangerous moments of history. The steps taken now will define the rest of the age to come, and there is no certainty that victory will result. Unlike before, when War was declared on America, our political parties were united in the fight for success. Isolationism perished as soon as the first American did. But now, nearly 40% of the electorate, Democratic stalwarts, are ready to conceede the fight - to return to isolationism, to ignore American deaths and to return to a dreamy illusion that Things Just Aren't Like That. These people, mouthing their support, personally detest the use of force to achieve victories over an enemy. They believe that domestic Republicans are in fact more evil than people who intentionally murder innocent civilians. In fact, the core of this group believe that Republicans ARE intentionally murdering innocent civilians.

There can be no argument with such people, if the reality of a body slamming into the ground from 110 stories up isn't enough to wake them from their delusions. These people have no problems holding inconsistencies in their small minds - that Iraq has nothing to do with strategic implications of September 11th, but yet that the bombings in Spain are the result of that country's support in Iraq. Well, which is it? Is there a strategic rationale behind the Iraqi War or not, and if not, why are terrorists responding to it? Don't expect an answer at all. Don't expect to shame them into agreeing with you.

Leftism is a religion. It is a BELIEF that if you just play nice with the tiger, the tiger will play nice with you. It is a BELIEF that good intentions overcome bad results. Leftists will carry these beliefs to their grave.

That is why these are the most dangerous time in all of history. The cult of leftism is a suicide pact, that is slowly being spread amongst a despairing people in Europe. It has been adopted by the Democrats, and if it succeeds in winning over the American people, the world will endure the most bloody and violent war in the history of mankind. The deaths of the 21st century will make all the bodies of WW1 and WW2, and the battles of the Cold War, look like a birthday party in comparison. There is even no solitude that the end will be quick. How many will have to endure the terror of living AFTER several cities are nuked, knowing that they will be next, listening to the droning cult of liberals preaching that they should disarm, abandon Israel, and perhaps give the Islamists a little more. I'd prefer to die in an fireball of atomic plasma than have to endure that.

Thankfully, George Bush gets it. He understands. But if he fails to win re-election, and if the American people choose a dreamy hope of appeasement with murderers, then the West is lost.

And the media start spinning him...

Rodriguez Zapatero, who until Thursday's bombing was considered an outsider for Spain's top job, had angered many in his own party with his lack of aggression in the months after he took the leadership in 2000 following a heavy electoral defeat.

But his tendency to compromise may prove a valuable asset as he looks to form a government with left-wing allies or regional parties.....

[...]

Zapatero is often compared to Britain's "Third Way" advocate, Prime Minister Tony Blair.

[...]

Unlike many of his fiery countrymen, Zapatero is famed for his coolness and colleagues say they have never seen him angry. Married with two children, Zapatero prides himself on his politeness but the word most used to describe him is "dull."

[...]

Zapatero realized he had politics in his blood aged 16 when he heard the will of his socialist grandfather, an army colonel executed by a fascist firing squad in the Spanish Civil War.

Spain's Zapatero, a Man of Peace for Wounded Spain
Does anyone know, offhand, if there are any Islamics in this socialist party?
How strong is Islam politically or culturally in Spain?
Does Spain have nukes?
Is Soros at all a player there?

Yes, I know nothing. Sorry

I get very nervous with these "Third Way" type folks..Clintons, Soros, and all these freaking lefty social engineers. My god, sometimes I think of the nightmare we will have become from whatever genetic engineering will become in the hands of these soulless husks........ I mean, they will search and destroy "aggression" in the human..gnomes? whatever - and the world will fade to grey........I mean hell, they are already trying to castrate boys psychologically in elementary school.

I really, really want off this damn planet.
No.
I take that back. What I really, really, really, want to do is, nuke Mecca.

115 Sidney Carton

Horrifying but true

#93 Marzo

Maine's Michael, please stop mindlessly parroting leftist conspiracy theories: the "ETA gambit" was no gambit. It was the first reasonable guess. ETA members had been arrested the previous week heading to Madrid with 500 kilos of explosives (some 100 kilos were used on Thursday). ETA members had placed two backpacks with explosives in a train headed to Madrid last Christmas. Whom must we have suspected? Genghis Khan?

What you say seems very true to me. We watch TVE news almost daily and know some of the background, so ETA really looked like even more than a reasonable guess, more like a sure thing, at first. I'm sure it was an honest mistake, no conspiracy there.

We are living in the most dangerous moments of history. The steps taken now will define the rest of the age to come, and there is no certainty that victory will result.

we can wipe out Mecca and the Sauds now

or fight this jihad for the next 100 years

The killers may be have nothing but contempt for us, but the great rituals of democracy can be more wonderful than one thinks possible. No one on Friday, in that whole great crowd, brandished nooses, or set upon those who sounded like Basques or looked like Arabs. Instead eight million people stood together in rain-soaked Madrid, in Salamanca, in Santiago, everywhere, in dignity and re-committed themselves to democracy, solidarity and liberty.

-from the Guardian

Says it all about the Spaniards and Europeans in general, doesn't it? "Oh, we can go out and STAND AROUND DOING NOTHING and that will solve all of our problems." How fucking civil.

There's also a photo on Yahoo! News showing a Spaniard in a mess of bandages and a neckbrace voting. He's described as a victim of the bombing. He looks like some guy signing his house over to the mafiosi who have just beaten him senseless.

Anyway, way to go Europe! Your repeating the same stupid history you always have! Which among you will help those to be murdered onto the trains this go 'round? Hmm? HMM?

muslims are fighting jihad to enslave us,

and we are fighting according to Geneva conventions and our fear of offending CAIR

#116 zee:

Holy cow, so Spain just elected Kerry?!!??!

-BF

This is truly horrifying. The bombing and the fact that the Spanish have turned to appeasement.

AQ has used the Stalinist tactic of "Kill one and frighten many." The muslims have killed 200 and frightened a whole country into submission.

I find this really terrifying, that a gang of naked savages can rule a whole nation.

I'm telling you the conservatives in this country are in a better situation and more together than they have been in the last fifteen years. Blair is making mistakes all over the place and he is living on borrowed time, even with his own party. The right in the UK is being listened to because the left has proved itself incompetent on a daily basis. If you think some sort of marshall law would ever be put into place in England you are living in bigel world. It just isn't the English way,

I think you're deluding yourself: cast your mind back to 1979 when, after years of mismanagement by both Labour and Conservative governments, together with sustained IRA bombing, a military government was on the cards for the UK:

[Link: lists.econ.utah.edu...]

Thatcher and Major were defeated, remember?

Brits often seem to like to imagine that their country is somehow immune to threats from the outside world. Perhaps because we were never invaded during WW2 and the Cold War.

Well, clearly this time it's different.

#123 bigel

I know, we will prevail

I just think the sooner we get serious the better

Hiroshima in 1941 would have saved how many Americans

why prolong this fight, when we can stop it now

#114   Curious,

You guys in the UK have been fighting with the US in Iraq?! Gosh, I was listening to that wonderful statesman Howard Dean on Meet The Press this morning, and I don't remember him ever mentioning the UK. He said the US had acted unilaterally. Are you sure about this?!

Anyway, sarcasm aside, the UK is a very different place than continental Europe. There's a yellow stripe that runs from Paris to Berlin that stains everyone who walks around over there.

I forgot the best trial-and-error source of insight in my post above: Want to know how successful UN inspectors would have been at finding Iraqi weapons of mass destruction? Then go read about how 60 times the number of recent inspectors missed Saddam's nuclear and chemical industries until his (now-killed) son-in-law defected. From the word Go I was against UN inspectors for this very reason. They flopped terribly once, so in a post-9/11 world I was not putting my security in their hands.

93 Marzo

please stop mindlessly parroting leftist conspiracy theories: the "ETA gambit" was no gambit.

There was no proof it was ETA. Ordinarily, gov's STFU (shut the fuck up - in case you're in spain and unfamilair with american slang) until they know who's responsible. The spanish gov seemed in an awful hurry to blame ETA. They even went along with the the UN's rushed condemnation (the UN's agenda - that non-moslems people can also be terrorists- meshed with the PP's for a moment).

There were more than enough reasons to think it was unlikely to be ETA, and only a few, such as the one you mentioned, to suggest it might have been. A prudent course of action would have been to say 'we don't know -yet', but they decided to play politics - to try a gambit- and lost the gamble.

Then, it seems there was the delay in releasing information that pointed to islamic perpetrators.

Why the above reasoning qualifies as 'leftist conspiracy theroy' is not clear to me. If you have additional information, please share it with us.

#115 Sydney Carton

Spot on and well written!

If ever there was a reason to toughen our resolve and stand even firmer against terrorism, then this is it.

re #119,

It may come to that, in the end. But it would be the end, after millions of deaths. Incremental bombings, of the size of that in Spain, with increasing frequency will probably be the mode of attack by Islamists for a while. That sort of attack is precisely the kind designed to engender appeasement. A big attack would be too costly to al Qaeda, for it would re-invigorate the resolve of America as seen after September 11th. But 20-30 bombings, on trains, busses, subways... 40-50... if people are lulled by leftists, they will demand appeasement after each one. And each one will invite more and more attacks.

I don't think that a Bush re-election is certain. Given that, it also must be said the current conditions of this country will not allow Bush to pursue an offensive strategy for the next 8 months. So everything hinges on the election. If Bush wins, we can go forward, alone if necessary. If not, then the only hope is Israel.

Colt:

LGFers are pissed because the Spanish caved to al-Qa'eda. Simple enough to grasp, right?

If you want to interpret the election that way, sure. You do know, right, that people voted for the PSOE for other reasons than the recent bombing? (And for that matter, that Aznar's quick identification of the bomb attack as ETA despite the lack of direct supporting evidence smells an awful like trying to play domestic politics with terrorism himself. A good case can be made that Aznar just lost a gamble he made.)

I don't see, though, how condemning the entire Spanish nation as degenerate, or welcoming a supposedly imminent conquest of Spain by Muslims, falls within a legitimate or non-bigoted set of responses to the recent elections.

Well guys, I hope we will all stop making fun of France for dropping its drawers at the earliest sign of trouble! The Spanish sure are giving them a run for their money. Didn't take long did it?
"Mr. Osama, we promise we will stop bothering you...actually, look how nice we are, we are even punishing the people who were being rude to you, so please please please, can we bend over right now...is it good for you?"

I mourn the victims, & I'm disheartened that many Spaniards have allowed terrorists to choose Spain's next government.

re #132, Randy McDonald:

Instapundit's quote, written before the election, answers you best:

Perhaps this was a sheer coincidence, and the terrorists had no intention of causing people to change their minds about which candidates to vote for. But if it wasn't a coincidence, then this would compel us to recognize a potentially horrendous new development, namely, the use of catastrophic terror to "persuade" the Spanish people vote against the pro-America policy of Prime Minister Aznar's party.

If this is the case, then the Spanish election Sunday will carry a significance that will transcend the borders of Spain, and which could make it one of the most decisive elections in the short history of modern democracy. For if the Spanish people vote against Aznar's party, then it will appear to the terrorists that they have succeeded in manipulating the domestic policy of an independent nation through an act of catastrophic terror. They will have succeeded in making a nation change its mind about who is to lead them -- and that would be a setback from which our world might never recover.

Factually this may not be the case: the vote may conceivably go against Aznar's party for reasons having nothing to do with today's terror. But to the terrorists, such a doubt will not exist. If Aznar is defeated, they will be convinced that it was their act that produced this result; and, God forbid, they may well be right.

This conclusion is the last conclusion that anyone could possibly want the terrorists to draw, because if they believe that they can alter the outcome of an election in Spain, it will inevitably tempt them to try to alter the outcome of future elections in other nations of Europe by a similar use of catastrophic terror.

Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that they might not also be tempted to use catastrophic terror to affect the next national election in the United States. Indeed, it is all too easy to concoct nightmare scenarios in which a series of coordinated attacks immediately before the election created a climate of such fear and anxiety that a serious question might be raised about the validity of the national election itself.

Today is indeed a dark day for civilization. I really wish that AQ would target Daily Kos and their ilk instead of us.

Andre,

Just wait. France has not yet begun to surrender!

#126 halldor

The only time that could ever have possibly been considered was when the IRA blew up the hotel the government was staying in during their pasrty conference in Brighton in the 80's.

And funnily enough I can say much the same about you americans. You sit there giving out your judgments on the UK's situation, but if you're not careful you could end up with a socialist/democrat, terror-appeasing government at the end of the year.

Our country has lived under the incompetence of socialism for seven years and the average man on the street is ready for a change. That change will be to our benefit. The change will not just be based on WOT but also on domestic issues that Labour is failing at abysmally.

If our leftist government supported the US in the WOT without exception (and bearing in mind your own left wing party says they wouldn't have invaded Iraq) then the position of a right wing UK government would be even firmer to fight and defend its people from these muderers.

Randy McDonald:

Lighten up, Randy.

Nobody with any sense here is condemning every Spaniard. Most here just believe that the Spanish electorate just made a foolish mistake. I tend to agree. I think electing a Socialist government because you are angry at your current government is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. (Or maybe you think a Socialist government is a good idea. If so, we could debate it.).

On the other hand, Spaniards are just Mexicans who were too lazy to move away from home. (This is a joke. Lighten up.).

Mark Steyn on point yet again. Please go read the whole thing:
These guys want to kill us anyway

Even if you'd avoided Iraq or Andalusia or British banks or Pilger or any other affront to Islamist sensibilities, you'd still be a target. As the PR guy for the Islamic Army of Aden said after blowing up that French tanker: "We would have preferred to hit a US frigate, but no problem because they are all infidels." Commissioner Keelty is confusing old-school terrorism – blowing the legs off grannies as a means to an end – with the new: blowing the legs off grannies is the end. Old-school terrorists have relatively viable goals: They want a Basque state or Northern Ireland removed from the UK. You might not agree with these goals, you might not think them negotiable, but at least they're not stark staring insane.

That kind of finely calibrated terrorism – just enough slaughter to inconvenience the state into concessions – is all but over. Suppose you're an ETA cell. Suppose you were planning a car-bomb for next month – nothing fancy, just a dead Spanish official plus a couple of unlucky passers-by. Still want to go ahead with it? I doubt it. Despite Gerry Adams's attempts to distinguish between "unacceptable" terrorism and the supposedly more beneficial kind, these days it's a club with only one level of membership. That's why so many formerly active terrorist groups have been so quiet the past couple of years. In that sense, Bush is right: It is a "war on terror", and on many fronts it's being won.

If Islamic terrorism were as rational as Irish or Basque terrorism, it would be easier. But Hussein Massawi, former leader of Hezbollah, summed it up very pithily: "We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you." You can be pro-America (Spain, Australia) or anti-America (France, Canada), but if you broke into the head cave in the Hindu Kush and checked out the hit list you'd be on it either way.

So the choice for pluralist democracies is simple: You can join Bush in taking the war to the terrorists, to their redoubts and sponsoring regimes. Despite the sneers that terrorism is a phenomenon and you can't wage war against a phenomenon, in fact you can – as the Royal Navy did very successfully against the malign phenomena of an earlier age, piracy and slavery.

Or you can stick your head in the sand and paint a burqa on your butt. But they'll blow it up anyway.

Spain votes to oust conservatives

The opposition Socialists scored a dramatic upset win in Spain's general election Sunday, unseating conservatives stung by charges they provoked the Madrid terror bombings by supporting the U.S.-led war in Iraq and making Spain a target for al-Qaida.

Europe will cave. She always has, and now that she's soft and lazy, even more so. In the end, it will be the US and the UK against the world, just as in WW2.

Why no Israel?

'Cause they'll still be hoping they can engender good will in the Islamic world by avoiding the hint of alliance with the jewish state. That will be the State Department's one contribution to foreign policy during WW4.

Maine's Michael is right. Aznar gambled, recklessly, and lost, badly. He only has himself to blame for directing his diplomats to insist that ETA be named in resolution 1530.

His friends should eat crow too. Why the Americans and the British helped 1530 through with full support is beyond me.

Sure, "it was al Qaeda" was hard to sell to the dunces among the Spanish electorate in just three days marked by horrific grief.

But they didn't have to sell it. They could have STFU, indeed. Denying the al Qaeda possibility was the big mistake.

All the same, writing all of Spain off and wishing it ill, when so many did vote for the outgoing government and the country is still burying its dead, is pretty damned crass.

Despite Gerry Adams's attempts to distinguish between "unacceptable" terrorism and the supposedly more beneficial kind, these days it's a club with only one level of membership. That's why so many formerly active terrorist groups have been so quiet the past couple of years. In that sense, Bush is right: It is a "war on terror", and on many fronts it's being won.

Well, Mr. Steyn, ordinarily, I agree with just about 100% of what you say, but not this time.

Gerry Adams isn't the only one. Every european foreign ministry and the american state department think the same thing, as long as the terrorist's targets are jews.

Also, it seems like only the european terrorist groups have settled down. Can't say the same for indonesia, philippines, and africa.

The way I see it, you Americans have more to lose if AQ start bombing during election campaigns!

If the Islamofacists try the same thing in US at the end of the year, it could tip the US to vote in the democrats just as the Spanish have voted in the socialists. The appeasment factor mixed with a manipulative leftist media and some bombs.

In the UK, the socialists are already in power. A bombing campaign during an election run up would demonstrate Labour's inability to secure our borders and people (amongst other things!). An anti-government protest vote will go against the socialists currently in power and into the hands of the Tories. This is exactly the opposite effect AQ would want. Naturally, it is in the interest of the fundamentalists to keep the British 'useful idiots' in power.

It is those countries in the Coalition that are already right wing that, quite frankly, have the most to lose from this strategy if it were again used by AQ in another country.

It is in AQ's interest to bomb kerry into power. It is not in AQ's interests to bomb the UK Tories into power and Labour out of power.

I think there is also another lesson that seems to be coming out of this disaster in Spain.
The Spanish government clearly tried to use the bombings for political gains by claiming that this was vindication for clamping down on ETA. With absolutely no evidence whatsoever that ETA had anything to do with this, they immediately put the focus of the investigation on ETA even after AQ claimed responsibility. I mean, they almost told AQ to shut up because it was drowning the lies they (the gvt) were telling!
The lesson for any government is that people will punish you for lying and for sticking to a lie. This is why they are punishing GWB on the WMD, not because it was a lie but because it appears to be a lie (not sure why GWB has not yet announced that the weapons are in Syria which is where they are, but hey...maybe he is bent on loosing the election after all). This is why people are going to punish the gvt in Canada where the main characters continue to claim they knew nothing about a scandal which is so widespread that it now involves dozens of Ministers, MPs and civil servants and deals with hundreds of $M.
I think that the "yes we screwed up" approach is now the only way for politicians to deal with scandals and errors. Covering up and playing politics is a thing of the past.

What message did this just send to the Basque separatists? If you kill enough of us, we'll capitulate to you also.

Jwarrior 145,

I agree. Take Ralph Nader out of the American race, add one or two smallish al queida hits (200 dead or so) with promises of dozens more, and we could be looking to President Kerry to solve the problem (shudder).

#127 Ploome

Hiroshima in 1941 would have saved how many Americans

Probably not a one. In 1941, Japan's army and navy were at the height of their power, not defeated as they were when we attacked Hiroshima. In 1941, we had not killed 900,000 Japanese civilians with fire bombs and destroyed large parts of their country.

What would trigger Israel to use its nuclear weapons?

Maine's Michael:

I hope your wrong, and I think you would be.

Kerry has no plans, no ideas, and his lack of credibility is being exposed slowly but surely.

IMHO, a strong reminder that the War on Terror is still raging will lead to the end of Kerry.

I'm soooooo happy at the chance of having more musically delightful genres mixing Spanish and Muslim music in the future Al Andalous (I wouldn't count on any Jewish contribution to this future Andalusian music though).

Hey, I love Emil Zrihan too, but this is a heck of a way to produce more of him.

146 bigel

It never goes in with you does it?

The average Brit on the street doesn't give a flying f*ck about Msulims and arabs. They just want to live their lives in peace and they resent the people that stop them from doing that! Terrorists!

Most Brits couldn't give a toss where the prime minister comes from as long as he improves the current situation of the country! Why should we be any different to the US in that repect?

We do have anti-semites, arab sympathisers and leftists morons, but SO DO YOU! And those people by no means represent the mass opinion in the UK.

So give it a break! We are not as much of a lost cause as you would have us be!

I hope your wrong,

Me too.

#114 Curious

Plus we've faced terrorism from the IRA, partially funded pre 9/11 by Irish-Americans with sentimental attachments to the old country.

Yes you have faced terrorism from the IRA and yes, much of that money has come from people with Irish ancestry living in every part of the planet including the USA. You dismiss them as sentimental attachments to the old country without taking the time to consider that unlike the Jew's claim over the lands of Israel, England does not have a just claim over the land of Northern Ireland. I hate to sound like a pali and use terms like "oppressive occupation" but you can't establish a garrison in another person's land, gun down civilians such as those protesting in Londonderry, impose your preferred system of government and not expect some kind of blowback. You also try to make it sound like the IRA constantly attacks British civilians when in fact it has a strong preference for military and governmental targets (unlike some of the less discerning enemies that our countries have in common). I'm not here to bash Britain and we are all aware of your unbroken history of support, but don't even think about playing the victim card around here.

#156 Yankee

You also try to make it sound like the IRA constantly attacks British civilians when in fact it has a strong preference for military and governmental targets

Here's an english word for you 'BOLLOCKS'!

They blew the shit out of London business/financial and shopping districts repeatedly! Buses and trains too. To this day there are parts of the inner city of London's financial zone that is still blown to bits and being repaired.

The IRA systematically targeted civilians both in and outside northern Ireland. I lived with it!

And yes, you do sound like a Pali sympathiser spewing 'occupayshun' rhetoric. I seem to recall the US has done its fair share of invading other countries as well, eh!

Aznar's quick identification of the bomb attack as ETA despite the lack of direct supporting evidence smells an awful like trying to play domestic politics with terrorism himself.

The UN rushed in with a condemnation of ETA. Does that mean the UN was trying to protect Aznar, given its opposition to the war on Iraq?

I hate to sound like a pali and use terms like "oppressive occupation" but you can't establish a garrison in another person's land, gun down civilians such as those protesting in Londonderry, impose your preferred system of government and not expect some kind of blowback.

Tell that to the American history books, mate! And to Sinn bloody Fein as well, who did support all sorts of murders of civilians. Even if their cause was just, their methods were not. Blowback is mutual, buddy. The sooner both sides get over it, the better, for both.

#154 jwarrior
Its bigel. He's annoying and its not worth the effort. Just scroll by.

#156 yankee

but don't even think about playing the victim card around here.

You're saying in 30 years of IRA bombings no innocent Britons were killed?

I'm with bigel. bigel has always been right. I just wish bigel would have some good news.

I supposed this has already been posted but what about THE UN Security Council has voted unanimously to immediately blame Basque militants ETA for the Spanish train bombings. March 12

On a brighter note...Instapundit just linked to this

[Link: www.activistc......]

Latest News from Fereydunkenar: Moghdad Najaf Nejhad Resigns:

He finally resigned from Parliament. As a result of the rioting of the people in Fereydunkenar Mr. Moghdad fearing for his life and possessions finally resigned from Parliament. It must be noted that the Guardian Council dismissed 3 ballot boxes in order to 'appoint' Moghdad Najaf Nejhad as the winning candidate to the 7th Parliament over Dr. Hojatollah Roohi.

The latest news from Fereydunkenar, 6.30pm 24 Esfand
After hearing news of the attacks by the Sepah (Revolutionary Guards) the people headed towards the Revolutionary guards headquarters were they fought the Revolutionary Guards and the soldiers. There are reports of gunshots being heard from inside the Revolutionary Guards compound.

---------------------------------------- ------
Major Victory for the people of Iran!

Not only did the sham elections NOT get ignored, but the people protested in massive waves. And when attacked they fought back, taking over half the town, freeing prisoners and setting fire to the home and office of the local Mullah representative of the Supreme leader. Not only did the brutal shootings not stop them, but in an immensely bold move, the people then atacked the Revolutionary Guards HQ!!! And the bogus hardliner candidate just resigned!

#145 JWarrior . . .

I've been reading your posts for a few days now, and you keep saying "you Americans."

Just as you don't like posters to talk as if all Britons think alike, we Americans take offense when people say "you Americans."

Us online people are generally trying to have a discussion and learn what we can, not insult each's other's nationalities. Sure there are idiots, but there's no reason to think we're all idiots.

Thanks.

Do none of you Americans ever even think that today you are benefitting from the experiences of the British army in N.Ireland? Because you are!

Why is it that when learning how to police urban environments for the coming Iraq invasion the US Army asked the Royal Marines to teach them?

The reason is because the British Army has 25 years of experience policing urban areas and populations in Northern Ireland. That's 25 years of consistently sending our troops into combat enviroments your boys haven't even contemplated entering before, let alone policing. The closest you have come to what the British Army is used to on a daily basis is Somalia and that was no success was it? Look at the actions of the British in Basra, we had the place quiet by the time you got to baghdad. Now it is quieter than Baghdad, because our boys understand the role of the soldier/policeman because they have all done it before in N Ireland.

Why is it that whenever a tricky special forces operation comes up the US calls the SAS? It is because the SAS is know as the finest fighting force in the world. Where your special forces can't go two days in the field without a cheeseburger, our boys go six weeks on toothpaste. Why else were the SAS sent in Gulf War one to take out scuds? Didn't see too many SEALS going in or Delta Force did we?

Where you guys in the US use firepower and man power, we use stealth, intelligence and precision. Our forces compliment and work together well, just as our societies do, but don't underestimate the resources we bring to the game just because we do things differently to you.

If the new Spanish Socialist government does join the Axis of Weasels, then I guess it is time for the US to remind the Socialist prime minister that all those American-made weapons you have (Like the AEGIS system on your new destroyers.)? Well, all additional support and service will now be permanently tied up in paperwork in a Pentagon office somewhere.

Petty, perhaps, but it reminds that there is a price for screwing with your friends and frolicking with their enemies.

C.T.

Here's a good article : Traitors in our fight for survival

Chill out, folks. The sky isn't falling. We have seen this movie before. Once again cowardly europeans surrendered to a threat of brutal force, once again they will pay an exhorbitant price for their unwillingness to fight.

Fortunately, our future is in our own hands, not that of the europeans.

#165

I have nothing against Americans and I have never said you are all idiots!?! I don't know where you get that from, can you quote me? I certainly wouldn't attack a nation I see as my strongest ally. I'm not LLL or muslim.

I love the US and I love Americans (hoping to come over in the summer actually coz I'd rather go US than Europe), I'm just trying to explain the position of the UK which many of you either don't seem to want to accept or dismiss for your own 'perceived' views because my telling how things are in the UK don't fit how you want to see the world.

If the term 'you americans' offended you I am sorry, but how else do I define between ME British, YOU American? YOU are American, I am British, that's a fact!Is there some other word I can use that will be less offensive?

I haven't called you yanks, septic tanks, red necks or hill-billies? So how you can say I'm attacking you I don't know? To be honest, I think you are just being hyper-sensitive because I am correcting your misrepresentations of my country. I'm sure you would do the same for your country, it's called national pride.

Scaramouche: yes I feel like the only thing preventing the annihilation of Israel, Jews everywhere, and all of civilization is the U. S. of A. I certainly won't be counting on Canada to step up to the plate. Canada's voting record at the UN is disgusting - how can we abstain so many times? What - we have no real feeling either way - you know both sides blah blah blah - GAG.

Bigel: Yes Israel's nukes make me feel a little less scared. Israel will fight.

Curious, JW --

I for one am not anti-Brit. I am just extremely skeptical that the decent forces in Britain can hold out against the powerful Lefto-fascist/Islamofascist alliance.

I assume that eventually, Britain will cave in no matter how stout-hearted she is in her hinterlands. She has her own burgeoning Islamist population as well as all of Europe to fight off.

It's a tall order.

Historically Britain always stood for the rule of law and order and decency when darkness fell over the Continent. But today that darkness also falls over Britain too, where in the past it did not.

I am not hopeful.

Bat Puchanan-

Sorry, but I am scared. I'm scared for Europe, America, and the whole world.

I don't see how we can stop the terrorists without toppling many more governments, and how can Bush do that without the congress backing him?

JWarrior,

But...you corrected misconceptions by applying a misconception (i.e., American soldiers need, what was it?, a "cheeseburger").

I figure it was intended as a joke, but if you want to clear up stereotypes, you probably should not use a stereotype in that same argument.

heh heh, careful jwarrior (166), this talk pisses some people off, and rightly so! Dear old der spiegel ran a 3,000 word paean to British “hey, Iraqi people like them!” forces in Basra recently, and it could have been one of hundreds of articles in the British press, despite its provenance. Only after 1,000 words or so did the journalist remember to mention that Basra is Shia, and hence likely to support the coalition, unlike the Sunnis the trigger-happy, dumb and ignorant [/sarcasm] American troops in Baghdad and the Sunni triangle are facing. And at 2,000 words dear old der spiegel admitted that there are Basra region areas where Brit troops only go in armoured vehicles, and then only rarely. A far cry from the frequent berets and “look, no body armour!” smiles of our propaganda.

Having said that, yeah, we do have complementary skills. So let’s remember to compliment them.

Elle Plater (#168),

Thanks for the link (I think). It's disgusting that virtually no one in the press says a word against these people. Worse still that they are so honored for having "the guts to speak up."

#80 disturbed individual

Where did you get the idea from my post that we don't need to fight back?

I'm just suggesting that we fight smart.

Actually it's more like the early thirties. Appeasement is in the air. Our methods of dealing with the threat are outmoded. The nature of the enemy has changed. We are not fighting an enemy whose forces are known and easily located. It's the Polish cavalry versus the Panzers...

There is a fatigue from the war in Iraq and earlier conflicts that turn many who have never known war to embracing "peace". It is incomprehensible that we are in something that approaches a "religious" war.

But it was religious fanatics that have been doing the killing. Because we live in a post-Christian century, we are unable to rally to the cause.

And the President keeps calling it a Religion of Peace.

This type of enemy was not supposed to happen. Having buried History, we're obliged to create our own: Simple conspiracies excite the imagination and require little thought.

It's the Jews.
It's Cheney and his oil buddies.
It's unilateralism.
It's Bush.
It's...fill in the blanks.

No. It's Evil. In its present form.

But we have banished Evil because man is now so smart. The bloodiest century is behind us and we know that if everyone has enough and we work together as one big happy family it won't happen again.

Teach Peace. Don't be judgemental. Multilateralism is the key.

They'll die happily. Some of us will ignore them and die surprised.

It's moments like these you wonder whether Hitler wasn't right about democracies being weak and unable to defend themselves.

#170 JWarrior . . .

You said: "I'm just trying to explain the position of the UK which many of you either don't seem to want to accept or dismiss for your own 'perceived' views because my telling how things are in the UK don't fit how you want to see the world."

I was just trying to point out that not all of us have the same views on the UK or on any other matter, so it's best just to state your views and respond to a particular poster rather than saying "you Americans."

I know you don't really think we all think alike, but it's best to keep it in mind when you post. Similarly, I try not to say "you British" or whatever.

I, for one, greatly admire the British army and don't minimize its work in the various campaigns.

Go, British!

#160 Ralph

Sorry to disappoint but I'm not Bigel. Just because somebody doesn't think that Britain is a blame-free angelic victim with regards to IRA terrorism does not mean that they agree with Bigel's "Nuke Europe" solution.

I lived in Kensington in London for two years and had the same daily concerns over unattended bags on the tube and the like, but the fear was accepted as a consequence of foreign policy.

If you don't like being attacked by the IRA, then you can exercise your democratic rights and throw out the current leadership in favour of a party who is more willing to withdraw British troops out of a region where they have no business being in the first place.

Alternatively, you may believe that Britain should be ruling over another group of people (an acceptable stance when backed up with fact-based justification). If that is your stance, then you can't be at all surprised when the people whom you wish to see subjugated and oppressed turn around and try to kill you.

Speaking for myself and using a hypothetical analogy, if Canada decided that it was going to send in it's troops and annex all of New England, I don't doubt for a second that I would support the use of force against both the occupying power and the people who support their actions. I'd love to hear an explanation of why Britain's annexation of Northern Ireland is any different. Are there any other LGFers who would happily sit back and allow part of their country be occupied without putting up a hell of a fight first?. Should we differentiate between the members of Hammas who joyfully kill Israelis, and those civilians who fill the streets afterwards to dance and celebrate - they are both equally deserving of a violent death as far as I'm concerned.

I seem to recall the US has done its fair share of invading other countries as well, eh!

Only when it was justified.

#172 Mordred

As I have said many times on this thread and others, the average man on the street in th UK has lived under a lying, over-taxing, manipulative government for seven years. He has had enough and change is coming.

This is not just because of the WOT but also down to domestic issues such as European integration, illegal immigrant problems, health service mismanagement, over taxation, transport inadequacy, law and order, speed cameras etc. The list of failures of this socialist government is endless. They are now talking about charging us £1000 to us the road for a year!! Do you think anyone is going to put up with that shit on top council tax hikes 4% above inflation? AND petrol at 85p per litre ~$6.00+ per gallon which all goes to the gov? And thats just transport and local taxes, the NHS leaves old grannies to die in the corridor while it pays for black lesbian outreach co-ordinators to work 3 days a week and get £25,000 a year salary. These are just a few examples of how much we are being screwed here!

Our socialist governement is grinding us into the ground. I'm still waiting to meet the WANKER that actually voted for Blair!! You ask people did you vote for Blair last time? They all say NO!!

So don't count us out, there is a mood of change about the place because people have really had enough of all this crap.

#180 Yankee

I think that you are forgetting the many residents of Northern Ireland who are happy to embrace their Britishness.

There was the IRA but there was also the loyalists terrorists who equally fought to keep the British in N.Ireland. If Britain pulled out, these people would have started a new terror campaign themselves.

The situation was so long running in Northern Ireland that no withdrawal would have solved the problem, there just would have been a power vacuum and a civil war.

Please somebody explain to me how we will actually be able to WIN the War on Terror

#179 Promethea

If I say 'you, american's it is only beause you are americans and I am not! Please don't think I'm saying it with some Mullah Omar smile on my face and a dagger in my hand because that certainly isn't the case.

We are friends, G-d bless us, Britain and America! :)

Alternatively, you may believe that Britain should be ruling over another group of people (an acceptable stance when backed up with fact-based justification). If that is your stance, then you can't be at all surprised when the people whom you wish to see subjugated and oppressed turn around and try to kill you.

Yadda yadda yadda, the same "discourse" used by the Palis to justify the murder of innocents. It stinks in both cases.

#186 pond

Agreed

I for one will be glad to see the clintonesque pixie that is blair gone from the scene.

Yeah, he's made a few moving speeches, and his heart's with the americans, but so would any british leader's be. I'd rather see a conservative in power in the UK.

As for Howard's being jewish, it would be heartwoarming to see that, as jwarrior states, it wouldn't make a diff to the brits.

#166 JWarrier

That tirade with the two days w/o a burger vs. two weeks with only toothepaste - our SF is better than our your SF bullshit...

I have seen retired SOG and SEAL set across the table and talk each other up, and talk up our allied and axis SF groups at the same time.

Have a little respect, will ya?

#143

WE'RE CRASS??!!!

Gee, I guess when 9/11 happened and Paleostinians and so-called enlightened Zeropeans told us it was all OUR FAULT, OUR POLICIES, WE BROUGHT IT ON OURSELVES, they were just being constructively critical?

We were still digging out our 3000 dead.

#189

I have maximum respect for anyone that fights for their country.

It wasn't a triade, I was highlighting a point.

I'm saying that you take us a little for granted.

I'm not saying we are better than you or anything like that, I'm saying our way of fighting is completely different to yours because it has to be.

#183 jwarrior

Your comment about the pro-British loyalists is correct but irrelevant - there are plenty of Americans out west who think that California should be part of Mexico but that doesn't mean that they are in the majority or that it is the right thing to do. You also failed to mention that these "pro-British loyalists" are some of the most brutal turds to ever walk the earth and limit their attacks to civilian targets.

As far as I can tell, you and I believe that democracy is the method of government most likely to result in the protection and advancement of the rights of all citizens. With this in mind, why would Britain deny the people of Northern Ireland to decide what is in their own best interests and simply hold a referendum to decide whether the North should remain the property of Britain or be reunited with the rest of Ireland?. We may not like the outcome and yes, there may be violence, but the price of democracy is often high as we have clearly seen in the past couple of years but we all know that that price is worth paying.

jwarrior, i like your posts, differences [inevitable but hardly insurmountable in international hawkdom] notwithstanding, so when will we all do a london lgf get-together? We would all have so much fun raving and ripping each other to shreds, and that's such a rare commodity these days! {thanks lgf}

Sheriff Kane:yes, some of you are crass, just as some of us are. Coalition, anyone?

#182 JWarrior

Inspired righteous indignation! Made my day.

Socialism...if left untreated...will always suck the lifeblood from any system. Alas, you need another Maggie and we need another Ronald Reagan.

There are still those in the former Soviet Union who long for the Iron Fist; there will be many in Britain who will cling to socialism as they starve chasing rats for the soup pot.

Of course, Yankee, by your logic the Yankees should have let the Confederates secede.

#191 JWarrior . . .

You are right. We shouldn't take you for granted. It's easy in a large country to forget that other countries don't have the same resources we do.

We also like to be appreciated, however, because we try hard to make the world a better place for everyone.

#195 allyK

hahahaha - good point - I didn't see that one coming!

#180 Yankee

Nothing you can say justifies the vile IRA terrorism.

Your idea of the history of Northern Ireland is way off beam. Try reading Robert Kee for a more nalanced view. Cos right now you sound like a Guardian reader, and an apologist for terorism.

I still don't quite understand the rationale for Northern Ireland belonging to England.

According to a CNN report I saw on TV, Spain is in full appeasment mode. A tragic mistake in the making.

Lawrence Schmerel:

Nobody with any sense here is condemning every Spaniard. Most here just believe that the Spanish electorate just made a foolish mistake.

Ah, yes, like the anonymous 18 who talks about "the dumb fucks in Spain," or #21 (paul) who talks about how he "[d]idn't think the day would come so soon for Spain to kneel down so easily," or #22 (cereal_quiller) who says "Lay down for islam. They deserve Spain and Europe," or #25 who says "I hate Spain. May the Moors ride over them and slaughter them and rape their women and enslave their children. What pathetic cowards!", or #72 (TomMoon) who says "Get a grip, she's Spanish. Lower that camera and you find a butt that streches across two football fields."

None of that is bigoted, of course. None of that uses sexuality as a weapon against the Spanish generally. All of it speaks directly to the belief that "the Spanish electorate just made a foolish mistake."

If LGFers spoke up against that kind of trash, it might be taken more seriously in the wider non-LGF world. As it is, these lend the discussion forums conducted hear all the legitimacy of Orwell's five-minute hates. Which is sad, of course, but what else can be done? It isn't like Charles is exactly doing anything about these posts, or like the LGF prayer is heeded in anything but the breech.

All right, gotta take my late supper.

It's been real! --too real.

#191 JWarrier

I myself do not take SAS or the Brits for granted. Most others in the US military do not take the Brits for granted.

Truth be told, you were a bit out of line on the cheese-burger line - American military food has the lowest ranking of any worldwide. At least those countries that don't feed their soldiers allow them to kill what they need to eat. Uncle Sam makes his grunts suffer with MREs.

Yankee:

With this in mind, why would Britain deny the people of Northern Ireland to decide what is in their own best interests and simply hold a referendum to decide whether the North should remain the property of Britain or be reunited with the rest of Ireland?

Because we know how the referendum would turn out: no. Given the one-half of the Northern Irish population that's Protestant, and the one-third of the Northern Irish Catholic minority that has traditionally supported continued affiliation with the UK on economic grounds, there'd be no contest.

I don't know what dreamy-eyed Irish diasporic vision of Northern Ireland you have, but it has little in common with the facts on the ground. Put in your terms, the IRA is the equivalent of the Mexican advocates of la Reconquista.

The Protestant terrorists are hardly nice, but their relationship to Northern Ireland's remaining part of the UK is exactly akin to the Catholic terrorists wanting Northern Ireland to be part of the Republic. What matters is that neither faction of nuts is going to get what it wants: Catholic extremists will have to face facts that Northern Ireland is going to stay British, Protestant extremists will have to accept that Catholics have a right to define Northern Ireland's public life, and everyone's going to have to get along together.

The swing in the vote in Spain looks largely to be the result of anger at the PP's attempts to mislead the public over who caused the Madrid bombings. That deep annoyance does not equate with appeasement.

#194 Esteban - are you, by any chance related to the musician (flamingo guitarist, Esteban)? If so gotta say the cat's music is truly AWESOME!!!

OT - that''s flameco guitarist.

#198 JohninLondon

Please don't lecture me on the history of Ireland without knowing anything about me (I will however take a look at the reference you kindly provided). As for being an appologist for terrorism, you couldn't be further from the truth. Like many other LGFers, my motivation lays purely in the defense of freedom and democracy and the people of Northern Ireland are being denied these rights by Britain. Many Irish people are taking up the very same fight that was fought during our own revolution - are you bold enough to describe our patriots as "terrorists"?.

Know we know what the yellow stripe down the middle of their flag represents.

Well, at least the guy in the jumpsuit didn't have a puppet!

#Yankee

The people of Northern Ireland and of Eire have had their say. They voted for the peace process. What can be more democratic than that ? What right have you to say that democratic rights are being trampled on ?

nd meanwhile the majority of the people in Northern Ireland still want to be part of Britain. That is their democratic right.

You are still apologising for IRA terrorism. Sheesh, some of you guys are crazy. Terrorism is terrorism is terrorism. The IRA in all its forms are terrorists. Full stop/period.

You can carry on being sentimental about the IRA, but you are totally out of step with the views of all major political parties in both the UK and Eire except one - Sinn Fein, whose leadership are also leaders in the IRA.

#204 Randy McD

Excellently put. After 30 years of IRA terrorism, and now after 9/11, it is amazing that there are still Americans that condone the IRA !

You know guys, i envy you. You all seem to keep your cool. I have 2 small kids, and i'm so scared for them and feeling so helpless to do anything - i've been crying pretty much all day today.

Y'all gotta go out and rent the film Barcelona (1994) - It's about two young American friends, one a US Navy officer and the other a businessmen living in Barcelona. They meet some super hot Spanish chicks, but are constantly being accused of being 'fascists' by the Senoritas (because they're Americans of course). The Navy officer defends himself saying stuff like, "This uniform STOPPED the fascists", etc...
The film will make your blood boil (just looking at the Spanish broads), but the ending will surprise and amaze you.

re #173, #184, allyK

Sorry, but I am scared. I'm scared for Europe, America, and the whole world.

I don't see how we can stop the terrorists without toppling many more governments, and how can Bush do that without the congress backing him?

Please somebody explain to me how we will actually be able to WIN the War on Terror

allyK,

I'm scared sometimes, too. It frightens me that people can believe things like appeasement actually work. It frightens me that some of my fellow Americans rejoice inside when a soldier in Iraq is killed, hoping for our defeat. Every day is a waiting game, waiting for the next headline that shows the next move. The thought can be terrifying.

But that fear, quite frankly, is irrelevant. Bravery involves acknowledging your fear, but going on anyway. I cannot consider it often when there is business to be done. And there is a lot of business to be done.

There is only one way to win the war on terror, and that way is to kill every last terrorist on the face of the Earth. There is no alternative. Remember the Bush's words on September 20th:

Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them... Our war on Terror begins with al Qaeda. But it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped, and defeated.

With every atrocity. they hope that America grows fearful, retreating from the world, and foresaking our friends. They stand against us, because we stand in their way. We are not decieved by their pretenses to piety; we have seen their kind before. They are the hiers of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way to where it ends - in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies.

The Bush Administration has the right vision to successfully pursue the War on Terror. What can WE, as individuals, do? We must press him to be more effective, when necessary. Some of us might join the military. Others can use their positions in society to promote the right ideologies to lead the rest of the country. But the most important thing we can do is to support the President. Bush is being attacked by a vicious Angry Left that wants to retreat from the War on Terror. Our job is to defend him. It is that simple. Unless you believe that a Democrat president will actually pursue the War on Terror (despite his constitutency of Angry Left), then Bush is the only President right now who can defend America. I know that there are people out there who might think that, "surely a President Kerry would pursue the War on Terror just as Bush did...". To people holding those illusions, I say: WAKE UP. This is serious fucking business. I'm not interested in talking to the Angry Left, the Partisan Democrat who believes his man can do no wrong. I'm not saying Bush is great in all aspects, but he's committed to fighting the War on Terror, and he must be defended for that alone. The alternative is a suicide pact with "Leftism as Religion."

The time of hesitancy in correcting your acquaintences' misperceptions over Bush should end. That friend of yours you see occasionally who believes that Bush is a little overzealous? Better fix her opinion. Your best friend's parents a bunch of so-called "moderate democrats" who are going to vote for Kerry because they've always voted for the D column? Better straighten them out, and fast. Your basketball partner who is a little snide towards Israel? Better slap him to his senses. An office mate afraid that Bush is too much of a religious conservative? Ask him what he'll think if he's the victim of religious Islamists, instead.

There will be no future for us if we let the appeasers and the defeatists win this fight. This is a battle for the future of freedom. Unless we get serious about making sure every American is committed to this fight, we will never win. We must convince our fellow Americans who can be convinced, we must shun those who deserve it, and we must demand more success in the War from our elected officials.

That's what we can do.

the defense of freedom and democracy and the people of Northern Ireland are being denied these rights by Britain.

Please explain. Last time I checked, Sinn Fein represented one minority side of opinion, even on the Catholic side. All Catholic sides are free to argue their cases in Westminster. And the Republic's government is no friend of Sinn Fein. Just last week it compared Sinn Fein to the Nazis. It also gets along reasonably well with Tony.

Let's drop this Irish-American beef. Times have changed in Ireland and Britain, not to mention the bloody world we are facing (hopefully together), from Omaha Beach to points - perhaps many points - beyond.

The Sun has a story linking two of the Moroccans arrested in Madrid with people involved with 9/11.

[Link: www.thesun.co.uk...]

#211 - JohninLondon

Yes, the people of Ireland voted in favour of the peace process - gee there's a big surprise. And here I was expecting the populations of both countries to be in favour of conflict rather than peace.

You keep accusing me of sentimentality and support for the IRA and yet I have repeatedly stated that I do not support terrorism but rather care for freedom and democracy - sheesh - how many times do I have to say it before you get it?.

A number of people on this list presume that that the result of a referendum would be "No". If that really was the case, then surely that would advantageous to both sides. It would give the British authority some legitimacy while also isolating the IRA and highlighting the fact that their actions are not reflective of the wishes of the general population.

The only way we can successfully tackle terrorist organisations is by removing the romanticism that surrounds them and to demonstrate to the people that they presume to champion, that they do not have their best interests at heart.

If one accepts even as a remote possibility that to win the war on terrorism we are going to have to raze and depopulate the Middle East then all of this is really not so bleak, even if Kerry is elected.

We, as a nation or as Western Civilization, obviously do not have the stomache for creating that kind of carnage under the present conditions. I'm not talking about little things like "nuking Mecca", I'm talking about the mega-deaths that would erase the support for terrorists by erasing the supporters. Proceding under the Bush approach has the obvious downside of further dividing our nation and the western alliance, while IMHO it has little prospect of solving the problem.

On the other hand if we follow the lead of Spain and seek to appease the Islamists, then we will be much more resolved and united when they continue to attack us and we are finally moved to doing the deed.

Limited war is an oxymoron.

#215 Sydney Carton

There is only one way to win the war on terror, and that way is to kill every last terrorist on the face of the Earth.

My point, above, being that I do not think it is realistic to believe that we are going to kill all the terrorists without making war on the culture that breeds and nurtures them.

Not that I think we have the casus belli for that at this time, but that is what it will ultimately take.

#216 Pond

All Catholic sides are free to argue their cases in Westminster

Would you feel content if Americans were required to argue their case for independence to a foreign power? - I can't speak for you, but it's a big "Hell no" for me.

I do however agree with you that it is time to put this beef aside. I come to LGF to speak with like-minded people and I suspect that I have burnt a couple of bridges today. Screw the Irish - if they want independence, then they can take up arms and fight for it like the rest of us have had to!.

#218 Yankee

You brought in the romanticism about the IRA by suggesting they are no more wrong in their actions than the US Patriots.

The Eire Government has not and is not asking for any referendum. They more than anyone else represent the Irish people. And Eire has specifically amended its constitution to remove the call for unification of north and south. Also, the votes on both sides of the border were strongly in favour of the peace process which was based on a continuation of the border.

So what on earth gives you as an outsider the right to argue that the British government are somehow suppressing democratic rights ?

I do however agree with you that it is time to put this beef aside. I come to LGF to speak with like-minded people and I suspect that I have burnt a couple of bridges today.

Bridges burnt? Where?! We're in the same boat, bro. Ireland will start a million arguments, most of which I'd actually support you on {yes, Cromwell and many others on the Protestant side were and are fucking evil bastards}, but when it comes to the US and Britain standing together before mortal threats of today's variety, the beef does need to be put to one side.

It's too bad that Generalisimo Francisco Franco is still dead!

/ducks and hides

Goodbye Spain!

Dear Randy McDonald:

I repeat:

Nobody with any sense here is condemning every Spaniard. Most here just believe that the Spanish electorate just made a foolish mistake.

Regarding those you quoted, well, maybe they lack sense. Or maybe they are just expressing anger and do not really have any real bias against Spaniards. (Maybe both).

Charles does not have responsibility for everthing that gets posted here. If you want to criticize Charles, which seems fair as I think he would agree, criticize something Charles posted, not some one else.

I think the Spanish electorate made a mistake and I would like to say . . .

Spain, you fool! You will get the government you deserve!

Does that make me anti-Spanish? A bigot? A hater?

Lighten up, Randy.

re #220, fred from AL.

Oh, I agree with that wholeheartedly. Destroying cultures is fine with me. There are plenty that need destroying. In college for my senior thesis, I argued that Americanization was necessary to secure the global peace of the world. And that was in 1997, before the War on Terror.

My intent with that concise statement was to guard against the false hope that a President not committed to this fight would follow through as Bush has, to steel the nerves of the business that is required, and to press on with a little bravery.

I have no doubt, also, that if we destroy all the terrorists in the world, and the governments that support them, a cultural way of life will end in those regions that foster such fanatical visions. That's why Iraq is central to this war, and why it must be secured as a staging ground for future offensive action. I hope that more of us will start to publicaly proclaim the forward strategy of freedom that Bush is advancing. The man needs protection from the media, from the Angry Left, and from the international snobs.

Johnin,

The Eire Government has not and is not asking for any referendum. They more than anyone else represent the Irish people

Of course they haven't called for a referendum - The Eire government does not represent the people of Northern Ireland any more than the Mexican government represents the people of California!.

So what on earth gives you as an outsider the right to argue that the British government are somehow suppressing democratic rights ?

That kind of comment is a bit rich on this forum. In case you haven't noticed, we all solve the problems of the Middle East and the rest of world on a daily basis from the comfort of our homes and offices. I don't have to live in Israel to support the fence or targetted assasinations.

In any case, I capitulate on this topic and sign off with a warm message of thanks to the people and government of Britain for their longstanding support in the WOT and other past conflicts.

(Sigh) I hate being wrong. A couple of threads ago I said this would be a wake-up call for Europe to forthrightly oppose Islamic terrorism. I was wrong. Europe must feel much more pain before they will wake up.

I still think the welfare of the British people is worth US treasure and blood.

...but the appeasers can FOAD!

(#228) Gordon

It was a wakeup call.

See, now more Spaniards than last week believe Bush = Hitler.

A totally natural reaction to (likely) Islamicists brutally killing 200 innocent civilians making their way to work.

*sigh*

Who hijacked Gordon's handle? That post made perfect sense.

#231 Sean

You beat me to it - I was just thinking the exact same thing!!

#226 Sydney Carton

I have no doubt, also, that if we destroy all the terrorists in the world, and the governments that support them, a cultural way of life will end in those regions that foster such fanatical visions.

You are much more optimistic than I am. As long as those folks continue to breed like rats in a population experiment and raise their children like they do, the problem, IMHO, is not going to go away.

Even a broken clock, Yankee!

Sydney Carton

Further to #233, The Childhood Origins of Terrorism.

Anyone think these two regret having worn suicide bomber bikinis?

[Link: www.littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Further, yet to #233, Islam and Apocalyptic, in fact the whole "Millenial Studies" site is interesting.

#225

I have sense and I am condemning every Spaniard to the fate they have chosen. They have elected a government that has promised to abandon us in IRaq and to appease these murderers because they are afraid. Well fuck 'em. I dont need any wussies and panzies in our goddam foxhole. this war is as clearly good against evil and black and white as any could be!

When AMerica gets attacked we FIGHT BACK!!! When europe gets attack they blame america and the jews and cower and act like a little school kid who squeels on their friend to protect their own hide.
They are fairweather friends. Like the pipsqueek buddy of the biggest kid in class who can act tough while hiding behind his big friend. But as soon as he gets hit goes running for the hills.
I dont need friends like that!!! I need a friend I can rely on!
I am not sure who is worse. With France you at least no a priori that they are assholes. With Spain, the people are only willing to help as long as they dont have to experience any pain and then turn their backs on us! I truly hope I turn out to be wrong and their public opinion flip flops but I dont think it will happen....afterall, they are european.

re #237, #235.

If you're suggesting that Islam the religion is, in general, a cancer upon the world, I'm not going to dispute that. I think Ann Coulter said it best when she said, "Invade them, kill them, and convert them to Christianity," or something like that. I'll take a look at your articles.

PS: As a Catholic, I think millenalism is a bogus theology, but that's just me.

wrong again euros

I feel terrible for the 200 working people killed
and the 1500 injured (some for a lifetime)

But for all those who voted out the govenment
thinking that a war on terror would interfer with their
summer in ibiza...

Is it the wrong time for Israel to aproach the international court in the Hague and demand reperations for all the wealth the Jews of Spain lost in 1492 plus 512 years interest?

#239 Sydney Carton

My point is not so much that it is a cancer, but that terrorism is a natural product of the culture.

Yankee:

I'm afraid what you said at #180, #192 and #208 justifies JohninLondon's remark that "Your idea of the history of Northern Ireland is way off beam," so it's not true that he knows nothing about you - he knows as much as you have revealed by your posts. It is also untrue that "the people of Northern Ireland are being denied these rights [freedom and democracy] by Britain" - as I'm sure you will realise once you have done some reading on the subject. The comparison between your revolution and the goals of the various IRA (and similar) factions is far-fetched to the point of being ludicrous; a better comparison would be between the American rebels of the 1770's and the Ulstermen who armed themselves in 1912 to make sure that the Six Counties would remain part of the United Kingdom. Your point that the "Orange" terrorists today are obnoxious gangs of thugs is a good and valid one, except that you seem to make no distinction between this (thoroughly nasty) handful of criminals and the Loyalist population which constitutes the majority in the Six Counties (please correct me if I am wrong about this, as I hope I am). Moreover, if I were to observe that some (not all) of your "patriots" (especially in the Carolinas) acted in ways not unlike some of those whom we now call "terrorists" - well, I would not be the first to make the comparison, though you will not be pleased by it!
Please excuse this somewhat irritable post, but you rushed to judgement against your country's staunchest ally while in possession of far too few facts, and that does irritate me. Can we now get back to our common struggle against our common enemy, Islamofascism?

#241 piglet

I feel terrible for the 200 working people killed

I feel terrible that you only think "working" people are important.

184: To WIN the war....

Think 100 - 150 years ahead....Western technology promises:

1. non-oil fusion power - goodbye rich Saudi wahabi's

2. millions of nano spy - soldiers working for the west

3. space based weapons

4. weather modification - 40 days and nights of rain on our enemies.

5. biological modified creatures: insects/birds/mice etc.
with teeny, little bomb vests - that attack defined targets

6. artificial intelligence that can predict (accurately) the outcome of economic, military, and political planning

7. gene-carrying biological agents that will 'reprogram' populations to be non-aggressive - we have the anti-dote (or it can be time dependant).

8. mind control over large population areas. 'Hey the prophet or God told me personally to be nice!' (puts down gun)

9. put a barking control collar on every muslim cleric in the world

10. prove their religion was made up

Yankee:

... and I took so long writing that that I missed your sign-off on the topic at #227. My apologies for unwittingly beating a dead horse!

"OK, so the Spanish have voted in an appeasement government -- big whoop."

I'm afraid it could be very big whoop. A key part of our war on terror is our ability to move forces and supplies around the world very quickly, by airlift. Moron Air Base in Spain is one of our pivotal "lilypad" bases. We stage a hell of a lot of airlifters and aerial tankers out of there to sustain the "air bridge" from the US east coast eastward, across the Mediterranean and eventually into the Middle East. It's our primary route for rotating people in & out of Iraq, for example.

If Spain pulls a snit and refuses us the use of their bases and airspace, we're royally screwed. We can't divert to the south of Spain -- them's all Islamic countries along the north African coast. Wanna bet Fwance to the north will let us use their bases and airspace? Fat chance -- they denied us the same many years ago when we bombed Kaddafi, around 1988.

So, kiddies, how exactly will the US get into the Mediterranean, if Spain locks us out? Short answer: we don't. The airbridge will likely flow westward from the US, across the Pacific, into the Indian Ocean, then into, say, Iraq. That's the l-o-n-g way. Or, say we want to use B-2s in the opening moves of a new fight, they too must fly westward.

We don't have enough tankers to sustain an airbridge like that. Not for very long, anyway.

That also means we can't rapidly resupply Israel, if some emergency pops up.

These protestors are idiots like our own leftists in NYC - I guess they think we all should all just kiss the asses of these death cult terrorists...just like the local demoncrats, like John f'in Kerry...

If I were there, I would piss on the flowers and write: "200 less Spanish Cowards".

BTW, The Guantanamo Guy looks like Michael Jackson.

Ol' Southern Boy -

What's to stop us from over-flying Spain? Like they're actually going to FIGHT someone?

/absorbed just a little bit more into the BigelBorg

#247 OL' Southern Boy -

Would over the North Pole, then into some of the Eastern European countries be a workable substitute?

And as for the IRA vs. Britain...

There were probably legitimate grievances in 1916, and there might be legitimate grievances in the Six Counties now. But the IRA's not "freedom fighters"...they're a bunch of Marxist assholes who are members in good standing of the Terrorist International. Remember (1) the PBS (!) program which showed an interview with an IRA informant talking about their having received a shipload of weapons and explosives from the Libyans, and (2) the IRA bomb experts advising the FARC in Colombia? How much ya wanna bet that one of these days, we'll see an Exhibit #3 involving Al Qaeda?

Yankee:

A number of people on this list presume that that the result of a referendum would be "No". If that really was the case, then surely that would advantageous to both sides. It would give the British authority some legitimacy while also isolating the IRA and highlighting the fact that their actions are not reflective of the wishes of the general population.

You're not listening. The Northern Irish population has demonstrated, in repeated elections and polls conducted over years and decades, that the large majority doesn't want to join the Republic, including the near-totality of Protestants and a sizable majority of Catholics.

Québec held referendums on independence, in 1980 and 1995. The first time, separatists won 40% of the vote; the next time, separatists won 49.5% of the vote; both times, separatist governments ran the province, and there was a serious chance. If you wanted to hold a final-status referendum, you'd do an excellent job of wrecking the fragile peace of Northern Ireland at a time when people have quietly agreed to deal with the status quo for now.

In the absence of any conceivable possibility of a majority in favour of independence, calling for a referendum which would utterly polarize the Northern Irish population--again--would be massively irresponsible. If you want to start another wave of low level civil war, go for it. If you don't want that responsibility on your head, then think about what you're proposing.

The only way we can successfully tackle terrorist organisations is by removing the romanticism that surrounds them and to demonstrate to the people that they presume to champion, that they do not have their best interests at heart.

Like saying that the IRA is the equivalent of American rebels? Right.

#13 Damian P

Hey Damian, congrats on the man linking to you. Kewl!

For those who don't know, click on the link and scroll down the right hand column to:

"Spain"
"Bomber Babes"

Well done Damian.

#244 Engineer:

Whoa, hold on there! Piglet's on OUR side. I think the comment was only meant to mourn 200 people whose sole "offense" was to go to work on the train that day.

@182 JWarrior

You state seven years your country has been under a lying manipulative government? What part of the island is so isolated that you aren't any more current than that?
In 1963 I visited my family in London for the first time. One of the main things I clearly remember was that the income tax was a full 50% of a wage earners take home. I remember my aunt and uncle both working to just barely make ends meet and pay for a home with 4 kids to raise.
I remember in 1973 when my grandmother died of peridnitis [sp?] because she was misdiagnosed due to the quakery of socialized medicine. I remember my grandfather being misdiagnosed and having a dangerous surgery he never needed because of the quack in socialized medicine. I remember one of my uncles having to wait for months to be diagnosed with prostrate cancer in
1998 and then having to wait months to recieve treatment.
When did your seven years of manipulative lying governing start?
The people of Great Britain voted into power/office the lying manipulative government you are under now. And they voted them in overwhelmingly. So now explain to
these 'you americans' just why we should have a vote of confidence in your staying power?
I expect when the jihad comes to your once fair island that in the main people will prostrate themselves for peace at any price.
Oh yes, I am english too.

That's the title of the French TV network of the CBC (Radio-Canada)

[Link: www.radio-canada.ca...]

In other news...
Les appuis se multiplient pour Mohamed Cherfi
"Acts of support multiply for Mohame Cherfi"

[Link: www.radio-canada.ca...]

He's an illegal Algerian who was arrested and expelled to the US, where he's being detained before his deportation to Algeria.
Apparently, politicians, "personalities", artists and the like are falling over each others to get that guy to stay in...

Here's is a little proverb from Québec that the Québecois seem to have forgotten: "Do some good to a pig, and he'll come shit on your doorstep."

#243 Edward

I was determined to slip away from this topic but I can't resist a good debate. Hopefully I can avoid further offending our SECOND staunchest ally (the Australians bled with us for ten years in Vietnam while Britain stayed at home - not a criticism, just a fact).

You have hit upon a key point that I was unsuccessfully trying to convey in my past few posts. I completely agree with you that many of our patriots would be regarded by the world today as terrorists. The brutality and cruelty of some of our fighters is well known by those with even a passing interest in our nations colonial history. The difference between myself and some other people posting on this forum is that I believe that it is acceptable to behave in that manner when it comes to defending your homeland, family, freedom and way of life. If it comes to having to fight for my country's independence, you can take your Geneva convention, UN resolution, gentleman's agreement or whatever else you want to use to tie one hand behind my back, and you can shove it up your ass. I'm going to do whatever it takes to ensure that my way of life survives even if I don't.

I simply believe that Northern Ireland is in a similar situation to what colonial America was in (although centuries of integration and British rule has softened the outrage and resistance). Nobody can argue that England ever had a reasonable claim to any part of Ireland and the waves of invasion that started as far back as 1171 are text book examples of physical and cultural genocide. Henry the Eighth enacted laws which banned Irish marriage, fosterage and gossipred, the use of the native language and literature, land was forfeited, poets and writers were put to the sword, churches burnt to the ground, Catholicism was declared "null and void", "corrupt for ever". In the face of nine centuries of that kind of oppression and violence, I don't believe that it is unreasonable for the Irish people to be a little pissed at the British government and those who support their foray in Northern Ireland. I never said that I support the killing of British civilians (I completely abhor it), rather, I merely stated that I understood where the motivation has come from and I stand by my very first comment that the British people cannot exactly claim "victim" status when it comes to the conflict with Ireland. Friendships and alliances have never equated to immunity from criticism or an open expression of opinion.

#246 Edward

Sorry, I just read your dead horse flogging comment after posting a lengthy message of my own.

#252 Randy McDonald

Like saying that the IRA is the equivalent of American rebels? Right

I have repeatedly stated that I do not support the IRA but I would like to hear your explanation of how they are significantly different.

Both groups are/were groups of men in lands forcefully ruled by Britain. Both groups are/were comprised of civilians who consider the fight for independence to be a sacred duty.
Both groups attack(ed) both military and civilian targets.
Both attempt(ed) to achieve their goals through guerrilla warfare.
Both groups are/were significantly outnumbered and outgunned by the occupiers.
Both had/have significant but not overwhelming support from the civilian population.
Both groups meet any modern definition of "terrorist organisation"

Just interested in where the substantial difference lays and I am not out to gather support for the IRA as you seem determined to assume.

Yankee:

Just interested in where the substantial difference lays and I am not out to gather support for the IRA as you seem determined to assume.

Unless you believe that the American rebels were a bunch of traitors who deserved to be hung high, I don't you that you're intending the American rebels/IRA comparison to be negative.

Perhaps the most critical difference between the late 18th century proto-United States and early 21st century Northern Ireland is that whereas the first society was divided equally between separatists, Tories, and neutrals, the second is strongly united against separation.

And yes, horrible things were done in Ireland in the past. Frankly, so what? Yes, Ireland was a colony of Britain, and yes the experience wasn't nice for the native Irish. The thing is, Northern Ireland was created as a home for those people who didn't want their homeland to join Ireland, mainly Protestants but including some Catholics. Unless you want to argue that these people have no right to self-determination, they had the right to opt out of independent Ireland. As do Northern Irish Catholics, for that matter.

And the United Nations Security Council weighs in right on schedule with Resolution 1530

Business as usual...

JohnInLondon (#204) wrote:The swing in the vote in Spain looks largely to be the result of anger at the PP's attempts to mislead the public over who caused the Madrid bombings. That deep annoyance does not equate with appeasement.

Exactly. Many were very annoyed, no matter what their political ideas are. Even among PP supporters.

But apparently some people just want to insult the intelligence of a whole country, not to mention, the very workings of democracy.

Ironic, really.

A while back when the Madrid bombing first broke, somebody here at LGF said that if Al-Q were found to be responsible, the Jews would be held responsible by the Spanish. I have no doubt that if you check Spanish Indymedia forums and similar across the world, you will find this idiotic rubbish spouted out. In fact I expect a headline in Znet and the like "Why Ariel Sharon is responsible for Madrid bombings". I don't mean they will hold Jews directly responsible, but you know the routine - America incites Islamic terrorism by allying itself with Israel.

In a sense I hope that Islamists from North Africa invade Spain again, it's what they deserve.

Btw Spain is pretty much representative of the whole of Europe, incl Britain, let's not forget Canada too. And somebody here says at least we have Australia. Well no we don't, they're the same as their Euro cousins for the most part.

NEWS: Spanish PM-elect to withdraw Iraq troops

from [Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Or other sources.

This is actually very bad news. A good thing that a lying Aznar got kicked out of offce, but another thing to talk about withdrawing of troops so shortly after a terror-attack which had named the occupation as "reasoning".

I don't think they will pull through with this (Iraq can't be abandoned now), but the announcement itself is bad.

I will keep LGF readers posted on events here in spain. although I don't live in Madrid I can learn a lot from people here in the south. People generally vote socialist here but yesterdays vote was unbelievable. Rajoy was supposed to win by a lot and the Spaniards said "we are sorry Al Qaeda, for going withthe removal of Saddam, we are sorry now we will pull our troops out of Iraq." Im going to have many battles today in class. I will keep you all informed.

Same here in Paris, here we go again. The deads are'nt buried yet that everybody points the finger to the REAL criminals who are responsible for the carnage in Madrid.
Took 3 days, like after 9/11.
Finally, one reassuring point is that there are still some things that will NEVER change in Europe.
This should give us a sense of security, probably....

/sarcasms off/

same in paris huh? im teaching here in spain and cant wait to hear all of these people blame themselves andtheir governments for this disaster. only a few peolpe have actually even spoken of the islamofacists and their death cult. ill be back later its good to know that some people in europe, (#266) know what we are up against.

#254 Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo)

Whoa, hold on there! Piglet's on OUR side. I think the comment was only meant to mourn 200 people whose sole "offense" was to go to work on the train that day.

Normally "working"=union.

and I have a personal interest, one of the dead was a co-worker in our Spanish office.

#9 The Holy Digga

hi, christofacist! seems like bin-laden is your student!

#269 Karen -

Islamofascists do not want non-Muslims to surrender.

They want non-Muslims to DIE.

What part of that equation do you have difficulty following?

85-90% of the people of Spain didn't want the war on Iraq in the first place.

Anazar lied about the Madrid bombings at the wrong time (ie just before an election) and got caught.

Lets just hope that the rest of the world hasn't forgotton the lies that took them to war when it's their time to vote.

#265 owen . . .
#266 David in Paris . . .

Good morning from Chicago. Good luck to you both in defending Western civilization. You have your work cut out for you. Idiotarianism is sweeping the world.

Spain is sick. Europe is sick. In fact, they are terminally ill. The disease is a combination of loss of will to defend their culture and values, years of anti-Western bashing leading to a loss of belief in the values of Western thought, post-colonial guilt, anti-Americanism, and most potent of all, anti-Semitism.

The only questions to me are (a) can we get the remaining Jews out of Europe in time, and (b) how violent the death throes will be.

I sincerely hope all of you posting on LGF from Europe (and I include the UK in that) either find a way to get out (and if you can't get into the Anglosphere or Israel, then hell, even Panama, Costa Rica or Mexico will do, for God's sake), or start learning Arabic and the Koran.

Ladies, I hope you like wearing your hijab and burqa. And to our gay European posters, the freedom was nice while it lasted, but if you don't get out, you are going to have to become very friendly with closets again.

Promethea #272

It is too late for them. Europe is finished. Only the US, Israel and Australia seem ready to defend Western Civilization. Owen and David had better either get out, or start learning the religion and language of their new masters.

Quote of the day:

A 26-year-old window frame maker, who identified himself only as David, said he had changed his vote from Popular Party to Socialist because of the bombings and the war in Iraq. "Maybe the Socialists will get our troops out of Iraq, and Al Qaeda will forget about Spain, so we will be less frightened," he said.

The Spanish word for "appeasement" is entreguismo, by the way.

#255 quark2

My old man said to me seven years ago when Labour got in 'We are going to go back to the 70's and the winter of discontent with this government' and from what I can tell he got it spot on!

Having always lived under a Tory government I wasn't sure what to expect with Labour so at the time I was open minded. Bear i mind I was only early 20's at the time and studying.

Seven years later I run my own company and I KNOW what its like to have to pay taxes and make ends meet. Therefore, I am naturally more politcally aware than I was back then. My anti-socialists views have emerged during this period.

I also know that many people my age in the UK have the same feelings that I do. We are being cheated! What may have seemed like a change in direction seven years ago has become a running open wound in the fabric of British society today and people young and old here are getting sick of it.

The coming elections can only go two ways; Labour or Tory. Seeing as we are living on a daily basis the incompetence of the Labour gov, I thing the wonds of change are blowing again.

Also don't forget Britain has always had a right-wing leaning. We lived 18 or so years under the last Tory government. Unfortunately, they started to take their position in power granted and the public took it away from them. But now the socialist haven't lived up to the hype and Britain is again ready for change.

#193 Pond

Anytime, my friend! Well go down pub, have a pint and put world to rights! We'll get John in London and Edward to come too! :)

The arrogance of Americans has no limits, it seems. To all the people posting on this thread about how America and the UK were the only ones who stood against the Nazi tide in Europe... the US only joined the war following Pearl Harbour and were strenously following an appeasement/head in the sand policy before being forced into the war. All the self-serving, whining "look what we did for you Europe and look how you repay us" crap is nauseating to me. Canada, for example, sent many more soldiers per capita to WW2 than did the US. And we joined the allies immediately and willingly to "fight for freedom". Because it was the right thing to do.

America has a long and proud history of self-interest. They have been meddling in world affairs without knowing what they were doing for far, far too long. Does even the average well-informed American (oxymoron?) know, for example, the difference between a Shia or Sunni Muslim and the hornet's nest you have disturbed in Iraq?

Do you know that the Americans deposed a popular, democratically-elected leader in Iran in the 1950s, who was trying to reform the oil industry (which heavily benefitted the UK and the US and not the Iranians). They replaced him with the Shah, an American-friendly dictator who lined his own pockets. The extremism of the Shah forced the pendulum to swing until the revolution of 1979 brought in the Islamists.

No, I do not condone the hateful blood-cult that has found favour with millions of Muslims. Its one of the great evils facing our civilization and we must do something about it. But the world is not a Western movie, populated by the "good" American sheriff fighting the bad old Muslims. This is a much more nuanced world than that. We in the West are culpable for the way in which we exploit people around the world to feed our never-ending materialism. There are many around the world who live marginal lives of desperation while we continue to support their evil dictator governments. Much of Africa struggles under a massive debt burden, where 30 per cent of their GDP goes to service their debt... money the West lent their dictators who sent it on to a Swiss bank account and left their people liable for a debt they didn't want and didn't benefit from.

We need to fight the evil within our society as well as the evil without and not drown in our own self-love, arrogance, and pride.

An NO, I am not a SOCIALIST or a left-wing Commie... I am a Conservative who has voted for the Canadian Reform party for the last 3 elections.

#271 Alan

I hope with regard to the UK you are correct!

Then we can get the liar Blair out of power and fight the War on Terror without the baggage of leftist, PC, terrorist appeasement from the likes of your socialist friends running my country!

#274 fireman

Such constructive comments!

With people like you cheering the rest of the world on, this war will be won in no time!

Well done, so supportive!

/sarcasm

jwarrior, cool, as soon as I pass my goose stepping course we'll sneak a drink, provided of course we can give the notorious London religious police the slip. See, right now I'm not doing so well in goose step training, just can't get the jackboots high enough to satisfy the imam. I'm doing better in Sharia class lately, though. How 'bout you?

#277 Zephyr: That is the best Right Wing Conspirator/monkeyfish impression I've ever seen! Bravo! (You misspelled "Pearl Harbor", by the way, which is a proper place name.)

Now...

Does even the average well-informed American (oxymoron?)

... go get stuffed, you bigoted, arrogant creep.

But the world is not a Western movie, populated by the "good" American sheriff fighting the bad old Muslims. This is a much more nuanced world than that.

Yes, it includes ineffectual, self-loathing hand-wringers such as yourself.