Now Charles, this is legitimate criticism, unlike your posting of Tides Foundation and Vietnam Vets against the war smears. Keep it up.

What an ass.

The tragedy of John Kerry is that he can have gravitas and be an engaging person at times. Unfortunately with a Massachussetts voter base he delves into Kennedyesque bits of nonsense.

Vietnam Vets against the War smears?

The group contemplated assassinating Congressional politicians. Smear indeed.

"Legitimate criticism".
An expression that was very common in USSR and still is very common in red China.
Of course it's 'forbidden' to say the whole truth about the subversives and their conspiracies against Freedom (read: Tides ).

Funny, as funny as the subject of this thread. Same kind of mind.

CHECK OUT THE SPIN ON SPAIN'S ELECTIONS AGAINST ITALY FROM THE AL-Associated AL-Press.

These mother fuckers are trying to paint being conservative a bad thing for Europe...and that Italy's Prime Minister his days are numbered...

Can you believe the spin???

My head is dizzy...

Andrew B.

Kerry reminds me of the Mayor in " The Nightmare before Christmas. "
Literally two faces , one smiling the other scowling , on one head.

God knows his head is big enough for it.

Now Charles, please refrain from running a dirty, negative campaign.

Only the Dems are allowed to do that.

Well, I'm glad he cleared that up.

It certianly shows how decisive he is doesn't it?

Kerry Motto:

"In a minute there is time for decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse."

Here's a pretty cool ad... crank up your volume. GWB Takin' Care of Business:

[Link: members.cox.net...]

Come on people, he is just trying to be a unifier. Not a divider. He wants to bring both sides of the argument into a noncohesive whole...

/sarcasm

The thing that really annoys me is that evry time the Republicans run a commercial pointing out something in Kerry's record, he says he is being attacked. If an opponents voting record in the Senate is not a legitimate topic of discussion in a political race, what is? His use of botox?

What's with this "100,000 new first responders" idea? It is so derivative of Clinton's 100,000 new police officers program that it is an embarassment.

If you're going to suggest an idea, at least make sure it's a NEW idea.

SallyVee (#12),

Sweet! Thanks for the link.

He's just like Texas weather. If you dont like what he's saying just wait a few minutes...It will change.

JFK's role model:

In 1948, Judge Noah Sweat of Mississippi was asked how he felt about whiskey. He replied:

'If when you say whiskey, you mean the devil's brew, the poison scourge, the bloody monster that defiles innocence, dethrones reason, destroys the home, creates misery and poverty, yea, literally takes the bread from the mouths of little children; if you mean the evil drink that topples the Christian man and woman from the pinnacle of righteous, gracious living into the bottomless pit of degradation and despair and shame and helplessness and hopelessness --- then I am certainly against it.

'But if, when you say whiskey, you mean the oil of conversation, the philosophic wine, the ale that is consumed when good fellows get together, that puts a song in their hearts and laughter on their lips and the warm glow of contentment in their eyes; if you mean Christmas cheer; if you mean the stimulating drink that puts the spring in the old gentleman's step on a frosty, crispy morning; if you mean the drink which enables a man to magnify his joy and his happiness and to forget, if only for a little while, life's great tragedies and heartaches and sorrows; if you mean that drink the sale of which pours into our treasuries untold millions of dollars which are used to provide tender care for our little crippled children, our blind, our deaf, our pitiful aged and infirm, to build highways and hospitals and schools, then I certainly am for it.

'This is my stand, and I will not compromise.'

3

The tragedy of John Kerry is that he can have gravitas and be an engaging person at times. Unfortunately with a Massachussetts voter base he delves into Kennedyesque bits of nonsense.

This is funny. It's like saying it's a tragedy that he's not 100 percent sane.

He's just a liar who makes shit up as he goes. No one could keep track of it.

Can someone please explain to me how this is worse than Bush taking multiple positions in favor of tax cuts or taking multiple positions on free trade or multiple positions on environmental policy? How about being a "uniter, not a divider"?

Politicians dissemble and hedge. Or they say one thing and then do another. That's what gets them elected. Anyone who thinks that Bush is a rock of consistency on every issue is a fool.

#6 Andrew B.: Unfortunately for Bush, Berlusconi is a slim, crooked reed to lean on. He would be in jail now if he hadn't changed the law to grant himself immunity. Aznar is a much more reputable politician, but he wasn't running for re-election anyway.

Interestingly, I our other Iraq European ally, Poland, is currently run by a left-wing government (main party is the SLD, or Democratic Party of the Left) staffed with many ex-communists.

Keep it up, Johnny. You're making it almost too easy.

#20 BPP: Start with the first Bush lie, that he was a "compassionate conservative." If you look at his policies, he makes Reagan look like a liberal.

I think he is right in what he is saying, but wrong in what he means by it. Kerry is a good guy, except when he is bad. He is for peace, except when he votes for war.

/Kerryesque speech

#15 Your Holiness

What's with this "100,000 new first responders" idea? It is so derivative of Clinton's 100,000 new police officers program that it is an embarassment.

Well, not only that, but he presents it under the aegis of fighting the War on Terror. I'm not saying first responders aren't important, but they only come into play AFTER the terrorists have been successful. I'd much rather hear Mr. Kerry explain how he plans to kill terrorist BEFORE they kill us. But maybe he'd say it's "None of my business."

To be honest, I'm not sure the "flip-flop" image will hurt him in the slightest. After all, Bill Clinton had an image as a "waffler", and we still elected him President. Match that to the level of anti-Bush vitriol and you have nothing to get excited about.

I'd like to think my country's electorate will see Kerry for what he is, but I don't see that happening. I think you'd have to show a video of Kerry running over a small child with his SUV in order to stop the DNC juggernaut.

#20 BPP

To charge Bush with being inconsistant after reading this single sentence flip flop is assinine.

Huge explosion destroys hotel in central Baghdad...

More positions than the Kama Sutra.

doom! i am becoming extremely worried about kerry imploding too soon.. i shall have to visit his site and soothe myself with the blather of the pithed idiots supporting his campaign.

#6 silvio is rather a crook and the italians have their own problems with him. but this is an interesting post in the sense that a lot of think tanks are predicting "the demographic collapse of europe" in the next decade. so for the jihaadis this could be a winner takes all sort of solution?

Bless the Blogosphere. May It Ever Increase.

Get a grip you guys. The man is apparently so important he gets TWO votes.

26 sharona

I think you'd have to show a video of Kerry running over a small child with his SUV in order to stop the DNC juggernaut

Oh the poor innocent Republicans! About to get crushed by the DNC juggernaut. They're so helpless!

/sarcasm off

#20 BPP

How about being a "uniter, not a divider"?

How is the insane hatred of Bush coming from the left any fault of Bushs. He has given the dems most, and sometimes more, than they had asked for and they are too blinded by their hatred to see that.

Uh, excuse me. Kerry can't be soft on defense. He served in Vietnam.

Didn't you all know that? Doesn't anybody read?

Sheesh!

/zzz

OT:

Sky News reports that a big explosion has destroyed a hotel in Baghdad housing foreign NGO workers.

OT: Large explosion in Bagdhad destroys hotel in centre of the city...

#37 scaramouche

My news sources are quicker than your news sources, nah nah nah-nah nah ! :)

#1 Gordon:

Speaking of smears, what are you doing posting here when you still have questions to answer which, in spite of your further smears you have not even begun to address. Don't be such a flaming hypocrite and answer the legitimate questions and criticisms that were addressed to you rather than just hurling more smears against Charles, LGF, me and everybody else who, in your mind, is in a "seething Islamophobic Kerryphobic rage."

Wayyy OT:

Those interested in the free market and taxes might take a look at this article.

The editorial takes a look at flat tax initatives in the former Eastern Bloc countries and how the flat tax is taking a firm hold.

Methinks the tax competition in the former Eastern Bloc is going to force the hand of socialist nations like France and Germany to reduce taxes and peel back restictions against individuals trying to earn a living. Nations like France are setting themsleves up for economic ruin if they think their 50% tax rates can compete with a 19% flat tax.

Viva free markets in Europe!

BPP:

Oh the poor innocent Republicans! About to get crushed by the DNC juggernaut. They're so helpless!

Ah, such a scrappy, hopeful attempt to injure! Too bad for you that I like my irony icy cold, not tepid.

Try again when you're feeling less in need of intellectual viagra.

Frenchman tries to run over Bin Laden look-alike
A Frenchman was convicted for trying to run over a pedestrian he mistook for Osama bin Laden.

The 35-year-old, identified as a struggling artist named Pierre, was sentenced Tuesday by a court in this southern France city to a three-month suspended prison term and ordered to pay 500 (US$615) to the victim, who was unharmed.

The man's lawyer, David Mendel, said his client was traumatized by last week's terror attacks in Madrid and was temporarily the "victim of a hallucination," while driving Monday through Montpellier's historic center.

The victim, a man in his 30s, was able to run from the oncoming car, which crashed along the side of a street.

"It wasn't bin Laden," Mendel said. "If it was, we would have won US$5 million."

The Madrid train bombings, which killed 201 people, increasingly appear to have been orchestrated by Islamic extremists with links to bin Laden's al-Qaida terror network.

You got to laugh at the french!!!

Foreign Leaders for Kerry. Quotes and all.

#39 Jheka

Nice try. I expect a response in 5..4..3..2..1..uh, 0, -1..-2..-3..-4..-5...

OT - Report: Port bombers came in container

The mystery surrounding how two suicide bombers succeeded in breaching the tight security at the Ashdod Port on Sunday, carrying out an attack, which killed 10, appeared to be solved Wednesday after a shipping container was found with grenades, a mattress and food, inside the port.

Five grenades were discovered in the container and police are investigating the possibility that the bombers arrived at the port while hiding in the container.

Uh, excuse me. Kerry can't be soft on defense. He served in Vietnam.

If it were up to Senator Kerry, our military would be using that same Vietnam-era equipment right now

Trolls are getting nervous in these days.
They must have understood that Kerry is too unbelievable (!!!) as a candidate.
And their big hope, that the WoT was forgotten by the large public, has been destroyed by the bombings in Madrid.
Get prepared trolls, another four years of good old capitalist boom. And a lot of your friends getting kicked...arafish first...
And after that, maybe, Condi, the first African-American President...

#42

identified as a struggling artist named Pierre,

In France, that description doesn't narrow it down much.

#43 Yehudit

LOL

Mystery solved.

Kerry in Wonderland:

"If I had a world of my own...Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrariwise, what it is, it wouldn't be, and what it wouldn't be, it would."

Now, Kerry on.

#15 your emminence,

i saw a very fine post on this, but i can't remember where-- to paraphrase-- "our first responders are our intel and military-- if it gets to firefighters and policemen is is too freaking late. kerry might as well hire 100,000 undertakers and insurance adjustors..."
sorry not to give credit to the author.

kerry is just too awful. he's never going to last until midsummer. the dems are going to have to try that "hail hillary" pass we've all been dreading.

Bless the Blogosphere. May It Ever Increase.

#12 SallyVee,

The Bush Administration would be wise to simply buy that ad and run it as their own.

Bush has a huge PR problem when it comes to the economy. It seems to revolve about the simple fact that no one in his cabinet goes out and says, "These are the facts, this, this, and that. Thank you."

A Danish prime minister in the 60ies called J.O. Krag (social democrat) is remembered for: One has an opinion until one gets a new.

Maybe he should market John Kerry flip-flops along with John Kerry Waffles.

Apparently, Kerry needs a vacation already, poor man.

[Link: www.drudgereport.com...]

SPRING BREAK: KERRY RETREATS TO HIS SUN VALLEY MANSION FOR 5-DAY LUXURY UNWIND

Dem candidate-in-waiting John Kerry is set for a 5-day luxury break at his Sun Valley, Idaho compound after a week riddled with gaffes, missteps and slippage in the polls.

Gorgeous, 19.5 rooms at 7,749 square-feet, with a market value of $4.9 million [property taxes of more than $30,000 annually], Kerry's Idaho vacation getaway will be the setting of a Spring Break regroup and unwind, sources tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

Private. Kerry is looking forward to enjoying the property, including the grounds, which have been freshly landscaped with Canadian Bluegrass, Fescue and Brome Mixes at a cost of more than $200,000, records show.

Unique. The mansion's "Great Room" is a 500 year old Barn, imported from England and then reassembled in Idaho.

NEAR SOROS

While rejuvenating in Sun Valley, Kerry may meet with neighbor George Soros.

The financier and philanthropist -- and outspoken critic of the Bush administration -- recently purchased a 9,000-square-foot 11-bedroom spread close to the Kerry compound.

ABROAD

While Kerry and his wife's homes in the United States are worth at least $23,733,705, it is not clear if the candidate owns property overseas.

The campaign has repeatedly denied requests for any information on foreign assets held by Kerry.

#21 Gordon,

Denmark not only also has 500 troops in Iraq, but has also announced that it remains committed to the coalition. There are also a number of other European nations that are particpating beyond Spain, Britain, Italy and Poland. These include Portugal, Hungary, Bulgaria, Czech Republic.

Why is it always with the L³ that if the effort doesn't include France & Germany, it's unilateral?

#20 BPP - Is that the best defense that you can make for Kerry - to accuse Bush of being a Flip/Flop artist like Kerry? That is an admission of the fact that Kerry does flip flop. What you are now wanting to address is the degree, frequency, and rationale behind taking multiple positions on topics. I would premise that we can account for multiple significant events that influenced and led the President to modify his positions. Can we same the same for John Kerry? I didn't think so.

SCUM & BAG in one word.

>Gorgeous, 19.5 rooms at 7,749 square-feet, with a
>market value of $4.9 million [property taxes of more
>than $30,000 annually], Kerry's Idaho vacation
>getaway will be the setting of a Spring Break regroup
>and unwind, sources tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

Wow! I wanna be a socialist!

100,000 new first responders???

Does anybody recognize what Kerry is saying?

He's saying that in a Kerry adminstration there would be so much carnage from terrorists attacks in the US that 100,000 new firemen and medics would be needed to put out the fires and haul the injured off to hospitals!!!

How else can you interpret that???

#39 Jheka: Posting to previous accusations against me doesn't do much. When Charles smears Kerry, I call it. I have fisked a couple of the articles he has linked to, if you want to spend your time doing more research on me.

As I pointed out, this post of Charles attacking Kerry is utterly legitimate; based upon his flip-flopping on an important issue.

#57 odin,

Now, now. You want to be a gigolo, not a socialist.

#57 Odin

Wow! I wanna be a socialist!

It's yours only if you are one of the .01% that are special enough to be leaders in the socialistic society.

Apparently he is finding another small problem to deal with. Ralph Nader may just be good for something, after all...and this is from the Guardian, UK, not the nicest of papers. Go, Ralph!

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

A new poll suggested yesterday that Ralph Nader's independent presidential bid represented a serious threat to the Democratic candidate, Senator John Kerry.
The New York Times and CBS News poll revealed a tight two-man race for the White House between President George Bush and Mr Kerry. Mr Bush had a narrow lead of 46% over Mr Kerry's 43% - within the poll's margin of error.

But when Americans were asked about a three-man race including Mr Nader, the 70-year-old consumer activist attracted 7% support, mostly at the expense of the Democrat. In that contest, Mr Bush led Mr Kerry by 46% to 38%.

Mr Nader's poll ratings are higher than at this point in the 2000 election. Many Democrats claimed that the independent candidate had helped Mr Bush to win by dividing the liberal vote in swing states such as Florida and New Hampshire.

His relatively high profile in this year's polls is all the more striking as Mr Nader cannot draw on the backing and organisation of the Green party, as he did four years ago.

Justin Martin, who has just published a biography of Mr Nader, said he was benefiting from the publicity from last month's decision to stand for election.

"He has a long history," Martin said, pointing to Mr Nader's four previous presidential runs.

"Ralph Nader has massive name recognition. Almost everyone knows who he is."

A recent survey has found that Mr Nader, who is of Lebanese descent, has substantial support among Arab Americans in key battleground states.

Polling by the Arab American Institute in Michigan, Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania - home to more than 1 million Arab Americans - found that 20% supported Mr Nader.

Mr Martin compared Mr Nader's relatively high standing in the polls with the volatile candidacy of the former Vermont governor, Howard Dean, who was the Democratic frontrunner until voting in the primaries began in January, when his political strength evaporated.

"Dean had these high polling numbers but, come the primaries when people walked into the polling booth, people did some hand-wringing," he said.

"There's a similar phenomenon going on here. It's exciting that Nader is in the race and it's easy to say you're going to vote for him, but it's another thing to go and do it."

Mr Nader has insisted that his candidacy would not necessarily hurt the Democratic campaign more than it would hit the Republicans.

However, much of his campaign rhetoric this year, like his four previous runs at the presidency, has focused on what he insists is the Democrat party's rightwards drift and dependence on corporate financial backing.

Yesterday's New York Times/CBS poll made bleak reading for the senator for Massachusetts for other reasons.

It suggested that Republican "attack" advertisements, which have sought to portray the Democrat as a vacillating liberal who is weak on national security, had had some impact.

The poll found that 39% of those asked saw Mr Kerry as a liberal, practically a dirty word in America's conservative heartland.

Fifty-seven per cent said "most of the time he says what he thinks people want to hear", while only a third thought he stayed true to his beliefs.

Twenty per cent fewer Americans had confidence in the senator's ability to deal wisely with an international crisis than those who trusted the president under the same circumstances.

The few bright spots for the Kerry campaign were on the domestic front.

Voters thought he was more likely than Mr Bush to generate jobs and to safeguard their state pensions.

The Guardian requires registration, BTW

#54 NY Nana 3/17/2004 09:49AM PST

This why Kerry can relate to the American people on a personal level. The average middle class American is terrified that if his job is outsourced, his family going to lose their 7,749 sq. foot, $5M vacation home in Sun Valley, and desperately wants taxes to be raised so that that won't happen.

#23 Gordon

Gee, I wonder when Reagen let Ted Kennedy write a multi-billion dollar education bill? Or give his approval to steel tariffs? Give us a prescription drug entitlement that will cost the government another continuing cost of Medicare/Medicaid scale? Sign campaign finance reforms that only the East Germans could love (i.e. the same incumbants who want to stay in office get to determine what their electoral challengers are going to say - and damn the First Amendment.)?

Try finding some new smears, lies, and slurs. Repetition does not make the ones you are sprouting any better, and it is DEFINITELY becoming boringly tiresome.

C.T.

SPLODEYDOPE alert:

Baghdad Hotel attack!

Thanks Spain!

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

25- Palandine- saw your post in the Armageddon thread yesterday that you are coming to DC for short term duty. Don't worry. We may be Al Qaeda's second favorite American city but we have the best security around, due to our chief business. You're as safe here as at home.
(At least that is what we keep telling ourselves. And we need tourists to come spend money. Please! )

Seriously, it's a great place.

Kerry Waffles. Heh.
And a side of Corrie Panca...
OK I'll shut up.
Dunk em in Ted Kennedy syrup... heh.

Jheka (#39)

Nice try but you'll never get an answer out of him -- he's too much of a coward to actually stick around and debate anything.

#58 Narniaman

Great Point!

Michelle Malkin makes the same in her commentary - Kerry First Responders Fake-Out

Kerry's big proposal to fight the global war on terrorism (borrowed from Bill and Hillary Clinton) is to add 100,000 "first responders" to the ranks of firefighters and emergency medical personnel in cities and towns across the United States. In other words: Wait until the terrorists strike us again and then do a really, really good job of cleaning up the mess afterward.

Given the fact that he said this speaking before the International Association of Fire Fighters, whose President is the national co-chair of the Kerry for President Committee - it is nothing but pandering to his audience and irresponsible policy.

I guess I meant 'drown them in Teddy K syrup'.

#60 addison

>Now, now. You want to be a gigolo, not a socialist,

He, he - I forgot about Kerry's dayjob! :0

OT - UN looking into Oil-For-Food Scandal Whew. So glad the UN is checking into this. Now, we know justice will be done.

/up is down

#66 Jim

Thanks. I know DC is safe. And despite my somber tone on that thread (which continues now, after the bombing in Iraq and the news that Iraqis were fighting off Americans who were trying to help carry out the injured [what the hell is WRONG with those people?]), I'd never let a terrorist spook me.

I prefer my state, where I can light out for the territories in case of an attack and where I can carry a gun, but I won't let any jihadi loser keep me from doing my job. :)

I'm rarin' to go start that job. Now, if I could just get that darn clearance to come through...

re the Baghdad hotel blast:

Man, that was fast. The Beeb is already asking for commentary...on a breaking news story! Talking about chumming the waters for "Bush Lied, the Hotel Died" moonbattery.

Or should that moonbatry? Moonbattery sounds like it involves a cluebat.

This is pretty damning. Had Kerry voted against the war, he could have voted against funding the troops and not lost any ground. Or were he smarter than he is, would have voted to fund them anyway, saying "I was and am against this war, but will not abandon our fighting men and women in their hour of need." Most everyone could respect that!

But no, Kerry votes to allow them to be sent off to war, and once there in support of his decision says "Do without, biatches." That's horrible from your typical liberal tool, but doubly so from one who knows firsthand how important that support is to the folks with their lives on the line. That's been Kerry's MO ever since he got his ass back home safe and sound though, taking his beef over Vietnam (didja know he served there?) out on the soldiers that followed after him.

I agree that Charles has managed to make Kerry look like he's performed a rather silly flip-flop here, but considering that there is no context, and no futher explanation by Kerry, I'd have to reserve judgement.

WHY did Kerry vote for the $87 billion, and why did he THEN vote against it? I suspect the answers are a little more complex than Charles is letting on...

Gordo - Smears... like in this thread - littlegreenfootballs.com...]>?

As Jheka and others pointed out - you yelled smear when there was NO commentary by Charles. All he did was post an article from the NY Sun, an article backed by sources.

The only problem - it made Kerry looked bad, and you didn't like that.

At least on this thread, you've learned to accept the items posted and not cry smear. So there is hope after all.

#59 Gordon

I have fisked a couple of the articles he has linked to, if you want to spend your time doing more research on me.

Hmm. A fisking, Gordon?

Fisking-

A point-by-point refutation of a blog entry or (especially) news story. A really stylish fisking is witty, logical, sarcastic and ruthlessly factual; flaming or handwaving is considered poor form. Named after Robert Fisk, a British journalist who was a frequent (and deserving) early target of such treatment.

Can you point me to one of your fiskings? Please?

#72 Renna

My Cosmic Justice "8 ball" tells me that the UN must also investigate something else, particularly something against the United States, in order to balance the criticism that such investigation would produce.

May I suggest that the UN investigate the ingredients labels on food aid from the United States to determine if typhoid, polio or the measles were inserted to kill the starving people.

#73 Palandine

Me thinks this may call for another trip to Brickskellers.

Tyson #2

What an ass.

Simple and perfect. My thoughts exactly.

#81 Ms. Andi

Why thank you. I have been trying to emphasize my glutes in my workouts. :-P

ROP whose hide is well chapped:

Man, that was fast. The Beeb is already asking for commentary...on a breaking news story! Talking about chumming the waters for "Bush Lied, the Hotel Died" moonbattery.

That's a beauty expression there, my friend!

Or should that moonbatry? Moonbattery sounds like it involves a cluebat.

About "moonbattry" being the appropriate term for those who appear as crazy as the day is long, the current spelling suggests some sort of reverse-version of a solar battery for urban automobiles (ala Eddie Murphy ripping on cars that talk back to you in "Delirious" - Yo man, I think someone stole your batt-try. I saw we go get the m-f'ers"), something Al Gore might suggest as a suitable alternative for gasoline. I'd like to commit moonbattery on that ideiot!

I think the proper term might be "moonbattitude".

/ just my 2 cents

Of course, it's forgotten that Kerry voted along with other Senators to supply body armor for our troops that Bush and the Neocon Fantasy Brigade didn't provide early on. Or that his vote against the $87 billion was predicated on opposition to the $21 billion for Iraq reconstruction via the add-50%-to-that-price folks at Halliburton.

And it's forgotten that Bush tried to cut danger pay and family-separation pay as well as health care for reservists. Nor was he eager to approve an increase in the meager death benefit for families of soldiers who lose their lives.

And then his campaign team has the unmitigated shamelessness to try to transform Bush into a soldier and veteran's best pal.

George W. Bush: weak on defense, weak on terrorism, weak on support for our troops.

But, hey, he rattles a great saber.

I have to echo Gordon's (#1) point. This was a good article to post as it clearly demonstrates Kerry lack of leadership potential. Legitimate reasoned criticism is the best way to address Kerry (and Bush for tht matter).

Gordon - You're not the only here who doesn't like Kerry but who is put off by some of the raging loons who frequent this board.

Perhaps this is Kerry's excuse for the flip-flop -

When first voted on in the Senate - October 17, 2003, Kerry was one of 12 Senators who voted against the package in a roll call vote. (87 voted in favor).

Because of differences with the House bill, it needed to go to compromise. The comprised bill was approved by the Senate Nov. 4, 2003 by a voice vote where Sen. Robert J Byrd D WVa was the only person identified as saying Nay.

So, gee, he did vote for it? Maybe...or he was just silent on 11/4.

#82 RWC

LOL!

#76 Aardman,

WHY did Kerry vote for the $87 billion, and why did he THEN vote against it? I suspect the answers are a little more complex than Charles is letting on...

Well, if you followed the link that Charles posted to the Bush ads then clicked on 'Ad Facts' You will get the specifics you desired. A cold hard voting record by Senator John F Kerry.

You can then question Kerry yourself why he voted against these.

Its all pretty damning, especially if you are in the military or a member of a military family.

Bush Ad Facts

My analysis is Kerry was feeling pretty bad that he voted for the military response to Iraq and this was the only visable opposition he could choose against Bush.

Too bad the military takes it in the heinie, but then again they are only a small part of the electorate.

#76 aardman

How well do you know the Senate rules of voting?

Here's the full congressional record of the "Iraq Supplemental Bill".

Can you show me where Mr. Kerry votes to support his statement?

fat.elvis

hahaha

#59 Gordon:

You claim here to have provided answers to this and this and this.

In spite of your mischaracterization, I am not posting "previous accusations" against you. I am posting questions and criticisms directed at you in response to your many smears. You claim to have addressed these questions and criticisms but that I was too blinded by a "seething Islamophobic Kerryphobic rage." Please link to where you answered any of the three posts that I referenced or admit that, yet again, you are lying.

Obviously, given the choice between linking to responses that don't exist and admitting that you are a liar, I expect you to take option C and try to wriggle away yet again. Have fun.

#76 aardman

I suspect the answers are a little more complex than Charles is letting on...

Don't you mean... hmm, lessee, what's the word I'm looking for? Oh yeah! Nuanced?

Correcting my # 77

Kerry's Record - Gordon Comment #5Sounds like another Charles smear to me.

Preview is my friend...

#85 Tim: Which raging loons would those be, exactly?

#88 John Gibbon

As I recall a lot of the opposition to the appropriations bill was related to how some of the funds may ben allocated to contractors under the microscope of watchdogs such as Halliburton, Kellog Brown and Root and others. Perhaps Mr. Kerry voted against the bill as it was quite popular on the campaign trail to vote this way when competing with Edwards and Dean.

However, the final bill included the amendments that the Bush ad identifies and if Mr. Kerry voted against it then he was voting against the amendments to equip the US troops. If denying halliburton funds was more important than equipping American troops I am sure there is a logical explanation for Kerry's vote.

#84 meteor blades

And it's forgotten that Bush tried to cut danger pay and family-separation pay as well as health care for reservists. Nor was he eager to approve an increase in the meager death benefit for families of soldiers who lose their lives.

Find me the facts to this statement, please.

Or that his vote against the $87 billion was predicated on opposition to the $21 billion for Iraq reconstruction via the add-50%-to-that-price folks at Halliburton.

$21 Billion these days is a pretty small price tag. Go research how much money we gave to Germany and Japan after WWII, put it into an inflation calculator and bring me back that price, please.

There is a pretty high bar to meet here at LGF when it comes to the facts. You just can't come here is throw out statements without factual backup.

I'll wait...

Watching the WH comments on the latest car bomb attack in Baghdad - and I am wondering just how much the significant increase in violence in Iraq over the last 3 days is in direct response to the Madrid terror attack and the cut and run announcement by the new PM elect?

Nothing like adding hope to the terror mongers by suurendering in the face of an attack. Just like the UN did when their HQ in Baghdad was attacked, and they ran to Cyprus last fall.

V the K #63

He owns an incredible town house in Beacon Hill, Brahmin Central, in Boston, as well as a splendiferous estate with the requisite dock, on the Cape. Although some of these things, for obvious reasons, were put in Heinz's name, each was bought as a one-upsmanship statement to Teddy Kennedy, his ertwhile mentor. I am still trying to find the articles I had saved.

Meanwhile, this 2-parter shows what a fraud the 'man of the people' is. I have a feeling that there will be a lot more revealed, and that the Dems will regret their choice of a candidate. Sometimes I yearn for the old days, and the 'smoky back rooms' that pre-dated the present system. Why there isn't a Primary Day on the same day throughout the USA is a question I would love answered. This cronyism, etc., costs so much more, and in the end, we get a Kerry. OK, they could make the rooms smoke free!

Part 1

[Link: frontpagemag.com...]

Part 2

[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

76 aardman

WHY did Kerry vote for the $87 billion, and why did he THEN vote against it?

What a maroon you are! Check this article out, especially the contrast of Gephardt and Kerry. Reality check, Kerry only voted once--NO to the $87B funding:

Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry...voted against the Bush proposal. "The best way to support our troops and take the target off their backs is with a real strategy to win the peace in Iraq - not by throwing $87 billion at George Bush’s failed policies. I am voting ‘no’ on the Iraq resolution to hold the president accountable and force him finally to develop a real plan that secures the safety of our troops and stabilizes Iraq," Kerry said.

Why is it that the LLL™ scream like banshees about the Greatest Evil in the History of Mankind, Halliburton, but have absolutely no objections to no-bid contracts they got from the Clinton administration?

83 sharona

LOL hearty chortles

#88 John Gibbon - You can then question Kerry yourself why he voted against these.

Actually, you can't ask him any questions he doesn't like, as he will only yell at you and tell you to, in effect, shut up - as he did the other day to a person questioning him about his foreign leaders "support."

#75 Model4. Where ya been? Haven't seen you much until lately. Keep up the good posts.

Spiny Norman #100

Uh, denial, ,double standards, delusional = Democrats?

Re the little hovel in Beacon Hill:

[Link: news.bostonherald.com...]

Kerry loan twice as nice
By Ellen J. Silberman and Jack Meyers
Wednesday, February 25, 2004

U.S. Sen. John F. Kerry [related, bio] used an appraisal pegging the value of his Beacon Hill townhouse at twice the amount listed on City Hall records in order to get the $6.4 million loan he needed to resuscitate his presidential bid.

The Kerry campaign says the elegant Louisburg Square townhouse that Kerry shares with is millionaire wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry is worth $12.8 million - exactly double the Christmas Eve mortgage the senator got from Mellon Bank.

But Boston's Assessing Department puts the value of the swank, five-story mansion - with six fireplaces, five bedrooms, a private elevator and roofdeck - at $6.6 million as of Jan. 1, 2003. The assessed value actually dropped from 2002's figure of $6.95 million.

The home's true value is significant since federal election laws allow Kerry to finance his presidential bid by borrowing only against his own assets - prohibiting him from tapping into his wife's millions...

Excellent point on the flip-flop made at The Corner.

Kerry's explanation could make things much worse for him, if it is pursued. His stance is that he voted for an amendment that would have approved the $87 billion if the tax cuts were rolled back. Without that in the bill he voted against it.

This should be spun "Kerry valued raising taxes more than he valued giving our troops the support they needed."

We have him taking both sides. We have a tax increase. We have a vote against the troops. All in one baker's dozen of words.

Kerry is the Magic 8 Ball of politics; except every shake, the same phrase comes up: "Answer hazy, check back later".

#82 renna
at last, oil-for-food hits foxnews-- should be fun to watch kerry's foreign policy statements morph into antipodes-- "um,um, i didn't mean the un, um, i really said nato! boston globe, go back through all my speeches and change un to nato!" the oil-for food stuff was huge in the blogosphere last month, perhaps we could form a metric for measuring relative permeability of Big Media to news from the blogosphere.

cspan coverage should be awesome this week...i've been debriefed for seven years, and much will be becoming declassified.

"we have such sights to show you..."--pinhead, chief cenobite, hellraiser, the movie.

#all
please, please don't say islamists when you mean jihaadiis, it just compounds the communication problem and i will have to lecture you again about Ibn Sina and the mutazilis.

Bless the Blogosphere. May It Ever Increase.

Heard on the radio earlier today that, while recently giving a speech, Kerry made the claim that "tens, thousands, and millions of jobs have been outsourced every month since Bush has been in office..."

lessee, millions of jobs??? Every month??? Must be almost every American is now unemployed!

Great quote, but I think that this election campaign against kerry who hasn't been formally nominated is a rope-a-dope strategy from the Dems. It draws out Bush on all the ads and then at the convention
JK won't be nominated or he'll withdraw for someone else...It will be like the Torricelli-Lautenberg switch, except they do it in convention. Bush has to mount a campaign against him now. But the same ads agaist somone else with similar views and probs will seem tired and hollow in September. I smell a rat.

Notice that the trolls today are more busy telling fish stories about how good they've been debating lately, rather than actually debating?

#76 aardman

WHY did Kerry vote for the $87 billion, and why did he THEN vote against it? I suspect the answers are a little more complex than Charles is letting on...

aardman loops such: "Oh, it's the nuances! Must be. What else can it be?"

My monitor has now a thick deposit of coffee on it. However, after my first reaction... this is really sad. Well, at least one can say that you have a religion.

from my previous -

"more busy" = "busier".

/Spanish syntax on the brain

U.S. Sen. John F. Kerry [related, bio] used an appraisal pegging the value of his Beacon Hill townhouse at twice the amount listed on City Hall records in order to get the $6.4 million loan he needed to resuscitate his presidential bid.

Kerry LIED! Loan officers CRIED!

Man, this guy really isn't gonna last until November.

FNC is providing a live feed to a speech at the Reagan Library in Simi Valley, CA where he just referenced the Kerry flipflop and his quote above.

A well delivered clue_by_four upside the head of Sen. Kerry and his vote to not support the US military.

CNN has covered some of the speech, as has MSNBC, but only FNC has covered the entire talk. Hopefully, there will be a transcript of it later.

Mr. Gibbon: Some people here provide ample citations, and some people provide pitiful ones. Just like every other blog comment section. But to your requests:

From Army Times: June 30, 2003 (No longer on their Website, but I'll be happy to e-mail you the entire piece if you so wish.) Here are the relevant excerpts:

Nothing but lip service

In recent months, President Bush and the Republican-controlled Congress have missed no opportunity to heap richly deserved praise on the military. But talk is cheap — and getting cheaper by the day, judging from the nickel-and-dime treatment the troops are getting lately.

For example, the White House griped that various pay-and-benefits incentives added to the 2004 defense budget by Congress are wasteful and unnecessary — including a modest proposal to double the $6,000 gratuity paid to families of troops who die on active duty. This comes at a time when Americans continue to die in Iraq at a rate of about one a day.

Similarly, the administration announced that on Oct. 1 it wants to roll back recent modest increases in monthly imminent-danger pay (from $225 to $150) and family-separation allowance (from $250 to $100) for troops getting shot at in combat zones.

And from San Francisco Chronicle of August 15, 2003:

The White House quickly backpedaled Thursday on Pentagon plans to cut the combat pay of the 157,000 U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan after disclosure of the idea quickly became a political embarrassment.

The Pentagon's support for the idea of rolling back "imminent danger pay" by $75 a month and "family separation allowances" for the American forces by $150 a month collapsed after a story in The Chronicle Thursday generated intense criticism from military families, veterans groups and Democratic candidates seeking to unseat President Bush in 2004.

As for alternatives to the $87 billion that Kerry voted for:

Defeated 59-38: Bryd amendment No. 1794 to split the request into two separate bills, one for support of the troops ($65.6 billion + $5.1 billion for security and $1 billion for Afghanistan) and one for the rest of reconstruction ($15.2 billion). The reconstruction portion would have been delayed to permit more time to debate the Administration's request.

Defeated 57 - 42: Biden, Kerry, Chafee, Corzine, Feinstein, and Lautenberg amendment No. 1796 to pay for the supplemental bill by reducing the size of the Bush Tax cuts for the wealthiest top 1%. Rep. Wexler has introduced a similar measure in the House.

And gordon goes *poof* yet again. Not a big surprise.

Another commentary on Senator FlipFlop's October vote on the $87 Billion and his comment that he did vote for it -

John Kerry chose not to support our troops -

So, what did Senator Kerry do? He did what he has done for two decades in his Senate career: He stuck his finger in the wind. Then he voted in the way he thought would best help his chance for the Democratic nomination. Senator Lieberman didn't buy Kerry's explanation that he really "voted for" the troops. He scolded Kerry for his primary-voter-poll-driven vote: "If everyone had voted the way [Massachusetts Sen.] John Kerry did, the money would not have been there to support our troops..." On October 15, 2003, a Washington Post editorial called Senator Kerry's position an "irresponsible course" and said it was "imperative that this spending should be approved." Dick Gephardt called the vote for the $87 billion "the only responsible course of action," and added, "We've got to send the right signal to our troops in the field, and we've got to send the right signal to people in Iraq."

John Kerry was more interested in sending the "right signal" to the extremists in his party, whom he was trying to peel away from the soon-to-be unhinged Howard Dean. Or perhaps he was trying to send the "right signal" to all of those "foreign leaders" (or "more leaders") around the world who, he claims, want to see him as president. But what John Kerry really did with that vote was to send the "right signal" to the American people that he is not prepared for the tough and principled decisions that a commander-in-chief must make when a nation is at war.

#100 Spiny Norman

What's missing from all the LLL ranting about Halliburton is the concept of LOGCAP (Logistic civilian acquisition program).

Basically, the military decided it would be a bad idea to have bidding contracts in the middle of war zones, so a five-year contract is bid upon in advance. The winner then automatically receives the business required for the next five years. Halliburton re-acquired the contract in 2002, after losing it in 1997. This means the no-bid contract in Iraq is exactly how it is supposed to work.

I won't go into the Balkan no-bid contracts issued to Halliburton when they did not have the LOGCAP since that is apparently not an issue to the el cubers.

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york070903.asp

"Post-Cartesian Multivariate Co-Directionality" indeed.

Looks like a symptom of Electile dysfunction to me.

Original claim

And it's forgotten that Bush tried to cut danger pay and family-separation pay as well as health care for reservists. Nor was he eager to approve an increase in the meager death benefit for families of soldiers who lose their lives.

Quote to back up claim

to roll back recent modest increases in monthly imminent-danger pay (from $225 to $150)

For your future reference and education, lowering of an increase is not a cut. You can argue that they wanted a smaller increase, but to say they wanted to "cut" the benefit is...well, let's be kind and call it only disingenuous.

And I take it the death benefit increase and the original danger pay and separation pay increases (sans lowering) went through in their full amounts.

Would someone please educate me about the "United States Traditional Allies". I hear so much blather about this topic.

In WW2, the U.S. was allied with the U.K., Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Pre-Mao China, and the Soviet Union. Brazil was an allied power but I'm not sure they supplied troops.

In South Korea, the US was allied with the U.K., Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Greece, and Turkey. Apparently a battalion from Belgium, the Netherlands, and France was offered but were never deployed.

In Vietnam, the US was allied with Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the Phillipines, and the Montagnards.

Where on the list of "traditional allies" will I find France or Germany, or Spain, or Italy, or ...

///diatribe over

Read and weep two can play this game.

Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.

Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.

Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.

Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it.

Bush is against nation building; then he's for it.

Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.

Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.

Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State.

Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution.

Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't.

Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits

Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush-"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care.

Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island.

Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding.

Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will

Bush goes to Bob Jones University. Then say's he shouldn't have.

Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote

Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team.

Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.

to be continued (8 months to go)

postit,

You would do well to provide news links. Otherwise, it's all hot air.

#115 Meteor Blades

A response to the anti-Bush rhetoric from Rich Lowry -

Dean's combat-pay charge is just as deceptive. The Pentagon earlier this year opposed extending recent Bush-instituted increases in "imminent-danger pay" and "family-separation allowances." It wanted to maintain the current pay of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, but through different means. This was all rendered moot when Bush signed into law in November a bill preserving the imminent-danger and family-separation pay increases. So no cut in combat pay had been proposed or took place, but Dean goes his merry way, charging otherwise.

Even though most of the links in google are pro-democrat sites and papers - here is a story from the Seattle Post Intelligencer also on Aug 15, 2003 -

Troops could lose raise in combat pay

The Pentagon wants to cut the pay of its 148,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, who already are contending with guerrilla-style attacks, homesickness and 120-degree-plus heat.

Unless Congress and President Bush take quick action when Congress returns after Labor Day, the uniformed Americans in Iraq and the 9,000 troops in Afghanistan will lose a pay increase approved in April of $75 a month in "imminent-danger pay" and $150 a month in "family separation allowances."

The Defense Department says its budget can't sustain the higher payments amid a host of other priorities.

So, we have in reality a proposal from the Defense Department to make reductions in order to fund other priorities. A proposal from the Pentagon. It is doubtful that the WH even was aware of this before the middle managers made the proposal.

But what really happened next - Congress and President Bush took the action needed to not make the cuts. Congress voted to not make the cuts, voting against the Pentagon proposal, and Bush signed it into law.

Linking a Pentagon proposal to a policy of President Bush is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps that is why only the ABB sites are the ones that are really still pushing it.

It's also interesting that with all of the invective tossed at President Bush over tax cuts, and over the top spending resulting in "huge" deficits - that items the Pentagon bean counters feel are wasteful and unnecessary (these were to roll back recently imposed increases in the pay and benefits - not a rollback of amounts that had been in effect for some time) grab the fire of the opposition to the Administration.

I see someone went to a democrat website and copied some talking points.

#115 meteor blades,

I'd say your quotes are a little dated, he eventually signed legislation that addressed all the topics you stated and made the benefits retroactive back to 10 SEP 01.

military tax relief

And was your first quote an Opinion Piece from the Army Times or News?

It was the Pentagon (DOD) that suggested a rollback on those funds in order to meet the Defense Budget for FY04, NOT the administration. You have to read what you qouted carefully.

Cool !

here goes,

NOW ABOUT THOSE WMDs, From the White House yesterday:

Q Thank you, Mr. President. Candidate Kerry has suggested he has support of world leaders. Do you think he should -- that should be a factor in the campaign? Was that an appropriate thing for him to say?

PRESIDENT BUSH: I think it's -- if you're going to make an accusation in the course of a presidential campaign, you ought to back it up with facts.

[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

MEMOGATE UPDATE, The Senate's sergeant at arms, Bill Pickle, has decided to refer his report about memo pilfering to the Justice Department for a possible criminal prosecution. The ringleader of the pilfering, Manuel Miranda, has insisted all along that he didn't do anything illegal, but Pickle's report suggests that he might be guilty of making false statements to investigators.

Isn't that the charge that Martha Stewart is about to do hard time for? I hope Miranda has a better lawyer than she did.

[Link: www.thehill.com...]

I have more if your interested.

Postit - links please to support your claims. Should be easy - one for each position - although not as easy as Kerry. After all, he does it in the same sentence.

postit's points are valid. What differs from Bush's record and Kerry's record is that President Bush tread ed water and then inflated his raft to get in while Kerry was in his raft and jumped overboard with an anvil in his pocket.

He's yet to remove the anvil from his pocket.

postit,

Mind telling us the relevence of these articles?

I have more if your interested.

You should demand a refund on that bilingual edumacation of yours.

#128 Athos 3/17/2004 11:37AM PST

Postit - links please to support your claims. Should be easy - one for each position - although not as easy as Kerry. After all, he does it in the same sentence.

What do you need links for ? can't you remember that far back ? it was only back in 2000 that he was appointed, not back in the dark ages, but it sure does feel like it.

#120 Renna 3/17/2004 11:21AM PST
#124 Athos 3/17/2004 11:34AM PST

Thanks for pitching in, what a team.

#131 zulubaby

Did you ever find out where this bloke was from?

postit: The point that is being made here is that John Kerry is being accused of flip flopping or waffling and then saying he's not guilty of either. The President on the otherhand is responding to accusations of his flip flopping record because of events that occurred after his previous record of stance.

Kerry accuses the President of not supplying body armor for troops in Iraq AFTER Kerry voted against the appropriations bill to supply body armor to the troops in Iraq. President Bush signed that appropriations bill.

Over to President Clinton for a definition of "signing a bill".

RIP Ford, he's pretending not to be British or Irish but his spelling gives him away.

As is being demonstrated wholesale here, it's a whole lot easier to make up attacks on Bush than it is to defend Kerry. In so doing, the cartoon troll-boy(s) pretty much concede the point.

Thanks.

Cheers.

it was only back in 2000 that he was appointed

I broke out my constitution and I can't find where it says the Judicial Branch is bestowed the power to appoint Presidents.

What Article? What Section?

I also by chance have a copy of Bush v Gore in my pocket and I can't find where it says the majority ruling appoints George Bush as the President. What paragraph? What line?

Over to you postit.

#131 zulubaby 3/17/2004 11:39AM PST

I have more if your interested.

You should demand a refund on that bilingual edumacation of yours.

Apologies, lazy.

I have more if you're interested.

And I do

Aardman just exploded in a shower of sparks 'n snot on the Dean thread...Buh bye!

On Flip Flopping:

There's nothing wrong with a principled change of position. It's insane to think a politician cannot change their opinion when presented with new information or a carefully crafted persuasive argument. What is questionable is when a politician does change their position and then tell you that they really didn't "change" their position.

#139 Axiom aka Malik Al-Malook

My bad, it was Katherine Harris, the supreme court had only a supporting role.

#136

>RIP Ford, he's pretending not to be British or Irish but
>his spelling gives him away.

Eh, because he can't spell to "asinine" (#27) and "relevance" (#130)??? Some British can actually spell. Or because he says "bloke"?

Kerry voted for the war and against funding the troops. He says this means he was against the war but supports the troops.

Except now he explains he voted for the 87 billion before he voted against it.

I'm shooting in the dark here (Kerry's a confusing guy), but could it be that he was for the tax hike, but against spending it on the troops?

postit -

What wrongdoing? By Manuel Miranda

The press statement by Manel Miranda and the details on the memos "leaked"

Let's ignore that this has nothing to do with your claim of Bush flip flops. Let's look at this issue. Which is worse - a republican staffer viewing democratic memos and letters on a common use PC (where the IT staff hired by Sen. Pat Leahy (D-Vt) didn't put into place any password or encryption to protect the memos and letters - or the content of the memos.

The content of these memos reference democratic efforts to delay filling judicial vacancies with Administration nominations because of politics - to the point that judicial cases would be influenced by the tactics of the Democratic members of the Judicial committee - as requested by the special interests that asked for this action.

Really - which is worse? My vote is that it is a tie between the content of the memos, the lack of ethics by the Democratic members of the Senate Judicial Committee, and the gutless surrender of Sen. Orrin Hatch - the Chairman of the Committee to let the Democrats define the issue.

Then let's look at your source - The Hill. Not exactly an unbiased site. Or at the author - Alexander Bolton - whose previous writing was done on The Nation under David Corn's guidance.

We're still waiting for pertinent sources on your specific claims...

#144 odin

No it is more like neighbour, instead of neighbor. That's it, nothing more.

#142 Axiom aka Malik Al-Malook

On Flip Flopping:

There's nothing wrong with a principled change of position. It's insane to think a politician cannot change their opinion when presented with new information or a carefully crafted persuasive argument. What is questionable is when a politician does change their position and then tell you that they really didn't "change" their position.

Pop quiz, which British politician said, and I'm paraphrasing cos I can't find the actual quote, but ..

"the gentleman resembles a cushion since he bears the impression of the last person who sat on him"

The put down of all put downs for politicians of any stripe.

#144 sorry!!! forget that message. I misunderstood it.
(but RIP's speling was worng!). Ignore me I am tired.

#143 postit

I believe that role is in the Constitution. To affirm an opinion, deny an opinion, refuse to hear an opinion or to create their own. In the Bush v Gore case they were petitioned to hear the case by both sides and accepted it.

While we apparently disagree on the outcome, perhaps we agree on this. The Supreme Court of the United States should have never taken the case due to its extremely volatile political potential. The Constitution presents the argument, confirmed in the Federalist Papers, that such cases should go directly to the Congress for resolution. This of course is the body of government where partisanship politics would have produced a likely identical affirmation that no matter how many times they counted George Bush was always tallied with the most votes.

#144 odin

Actually, I should add that I never make fun of spelling or grammatical errors. In my rush, I make them all the time.

Some British can actually spell.

He can't.
You should preview your posts before you correct someones spelling/grammar too:

Eh, because he can't spell to "asinine"

People in glass houses should not throw stones.

postit -

You made the claims that Bush took both positions - let's see each side of the position in a link - otherwise you are just spouting Dem talking points (aka hot air).

Furthermore - re Florida - which of these facts do you choose to ignore: The thousands of military absentee ballots that were contested by Al Gore (Mr. Count Them All) and not counted, or the reports from New York Times, USA Today, Washington Post that President Bush really did win Florida.

Study of Disputed Florida Ballots Finds Justices Did Not Cast the Deciding Vote

ABSTRACT - Comprehensive review of uncounted Florida ballots from 2000 presidential election, conducted by consortium of eight news organizations and professional statisticians, indicates George W Bush would have won election even if US Supreme Court allowed statewide manual recount of votes ordered by state Supreme Court; finds, contrary to allegations by partisans of Vice Pres Al Gore, that Supreme Court did not award election to Bush; says that Bush would have retained slender margin if Florida court order to recount more than 43,000 ballots was not reversed by Supreme Court, and that even under strategy Gore pursued at beginning of standoff, of filing suit to force recounts in four predominantly Democratic counties, Bush would have retained lead; says close examination of broader group of rejected ballots than those covered in court decisions shows Gore might have won if courts ordered full statewide recount of all rejected ballots, and if he pursued in court action he publicly advocated of calling on state to count all votes; finds statistical support for complaints of many voters, particularly elderly Democrats in Palm Beach County, who said in interviews after election that confusing ballot designs may have led them to spoil their ballots by voting for more than one candidate; charts; photos (M)

This link is the abstract from the NYTimes - the full article needs to be purchased.

odin
No worries, it's not a big deal.

I'm being scolded for using year-old quotations when other threads here are bringing up 33-year-old assassination plots? Not to mention using Google, which is in itself a leftwing conspiracy.

Yes, Bush came around on all those metters after the public relations storm blew s*** into the White House foyer. As for Bush not knowing about this Pentagon initiative, well, I can always be convinced that he didn't know something. But that's what CEO USA hires all those brainy assistants to keep him posted on, right?

Thanks Renna for letting me know, for my future reference and education [that] lowering of an increase is not a cut. I trust you will apply this same reasoning the next time a Bush ad comes out saying Kerry favors boosting taxes, when, in fact, he's only raising a decrease.

#147 Annelid

If you're a free market economist than outsourcing of low skilled jobs to free up capital for long term technological investment to nurture a market for high skilled job is A GOOD THING. Politically the statements of Mr. Mankiw were poorly timed and opposition rightfully pounced, Dennis Hastert included.

Let's ask this question.

Do you want more rich people or less rich people?

If you study market data than the richer the rich people and the higher quantity of rich people than the other statistical categories follow along. The rich get richer, the middle class range expands, and the poor...get richer...that's right.

#145 Stephen Gordon 3/17/2004 11:53AM PST

Kerry voted for the war and against funding the troops. He says this means he was against the war but supports the troops.

A perfectly logical position in a democracy.

Except now he explains he voted for the 87 billion before he voted against it.

He voted for his preffered version, a substitute/ammendment which would have offset it against GWB's 'free our rich and starving masses' tax cuts. Again defensable

I'm shooting in the dark here (Kerry's a confusing guy), but could it be that he was for the tax hike, but against spending it on the troops?

Exactly how much of the $87b do you estimate gets spent on the troops and how much is spent on 'nation building' and fixing stuff we broke ?

The Warning Kerry Ignored -- More Nonsense!

Hot off the presses: Here's what Sullivan had to say in September of 2001 after 9/11:

Sullivan says Sen. Kerry responded to his letter and asked the Department of Transportation's Inspector General look into the matter. "I think Sen. Kerry did get it to the right people and they were about to take action."

This is what he actually thought before adding election year spin.

[Link: www.freedomtocare.org...]

Voting against weapons systems -- more nonsense. See the dissection of that charge in Slate.

Let's take as critcal eye to the propaganda coming from both sides of the aisle as we do the ROP nonsense.

#155 Meteor Blades

I trust you will apply this same reasoning the next time a Bush ad comes out saying Kerry favors boosting taxes, when, in fact, he's only raising a decrease.

The tax cuts are presently scheduled to end in 2010. If nothing happens to extend them - we return to the old rates. However, if action is taken to eliminate them early - why isn't that an increase?

Also - a shit storm of publicity? I recall this being an issue in November when Dean, Kerry, and Lieberman were campaigning - not in August. An article from the SF Chronicle, and editorial from the Army Times, an article from the Seattle PI (which was more balanced) drove the Administration to not approve the request of the Pentagon? That seems a bit of a stretch.

It must be better to not give the Administration any credit for doing the right thing and overrule a Pentagon request to balance the budget.

Now, how many times has Kerry changed position to do the right thing? When he voted to authorize force in Iraq and then voted against funding it once the troops were there?

#158 Steve Young

Slate debunked the congressional record? Wow, they are good!

/idiot

#157, postit. There you go with your racist bullshit again. You would appear to be much happier if we had marched through Irag like Sherman had marched through Georgia. Just leave them in the ruins and let em eat sand eh. Good plan postit. Got any other bright ideas?

#156 Axiom aka Malik Al-Malook 3/17/2004 12:04PM PST

If you study market data than the richer the rich people and the higher quantity of rich people than the other statistical categories follow along. The rich get richer, the middle class range expands, and the poor...get richer...that's right.

Read Perfectly Legal by David Cay Johnston

It's an eyeopener, just a suggestion.

postit

He voted for his preffered version, a substitute/ammendment which would have offset it against GWB's 'free our rich and starving masses' tax cuts. Again defensable

So its defensible to play politics with an appropriation funding troops in the field by tying any approval to the elimination of a tax cut that he opposes?

BTW - let's see some facts as well behind the "free our rich and starving masses" tax cut line - or are you another one of the people that ignores percentages in the effort of using the Federal Tax Code to redistribute wealth and focuses on just the dollar amounts?

You know, the standard argument that the mythical family of four with a combined income of $50K only gets $1K back, but a family of four with a combined income of $200K gets $4K back - so it's biased for the rich since they got $3K more than the other family.

Kerry voted for the war and against funding the troops. He says this means he was against the war but supports the troops.

A perfectly logical position in a democracy.

Priceless!

the next time a Bush ad comes out saying Kerry favors boosting taxes, when, in fact, he's only raising a decrease.

If a person's tax rate is 35% in 2004 and 39.6% in 2006 (per Kerry's proposal), most people would consider that a tax increase.

But, if you're a libdem, it's not a tax increase, it's a raise of a decrease.

R-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght.

And here I thought that quip in VP's speech at the Regan Library today was just a joke. Dang, Cheney is on the ball.

postit sees the Federal Income Tax as a requirement for income redistribution...therefore earners of >$150K who amount to 2% of the tax paying population and pay 55% of all the tax revenue need to pay a greater share of taxes.

And that horrible tax cut must not have had anything to do with the last 6 consecutive quarters of economic growth - like stimulating the economy and lessening the impact of the 2000 recession.

MB, sweetie. Higher and lower isn't some complicated economic mumbo jumbo. Simple. What were the benefits in the year previous and were they smaller or greater in the current year? If they are now greater, it is not a cut, it is an increase, even if some versions of the budget called for bigger increases. If they were lower, then it is a cut even if some versions of the budget called for greater decreases.

If John Kerry wants to lower my taxes from one year to the next (say from 2003 to 2004) but just by a smaller amount than Bush would lower them, and if Bush called that a tax increase, I would indeed call foul on the GOP side. (I have not heard of any such plans by Kerry to lower taxes.) However, if Kerry wants to raise my taxes (I would pay more in 2004 than 2003) but tries to call it just a "smaller tax cut" because he is retroactively comparing his rates to the pre-Bush tax cuts of 2000 or some earlier time, then again I would call foul, but this time on Kerry.

#163, postit. According to David Cay Johnston, people like you, have have been listening to too much Jennifer Lopez instead of talking to their congressman. This according to his Forbes interview. You don't really listen to Jennifer Lopez do you?

These troLLLs stroll in with the same litany of cut-and-paste DU spin we've been stropping our claws on for years, all the while desperately throwing it up as chaff to deflect some very telling factual examples regarding John Fing Kerry

It's why I generally dispose of troLLLs with one daisy cutter rebuttal and then ignore them. Their only form of response is to cut and paste another talking point or, much more often, a rephrasing of an already-stated and refuted talking point. They aren't engaging logic, reason, debate, wit, analysis, historical perpective, spelling, grammar, punctuation, common sense, thought or any of the other characteristics that denote serious argument.

#127 V the K,

To be more succint, they substitute platitudes for arguments.

#172 v the k

It's why I generally dispose of troLLLs with one daisy cutter rebuttal and then ignore them.

In your dreams.

Their only form of response is to cut and paste another talking point or, much more often, a rephrasing of an already-stated and refuted talking point. They aren't engaging logic, reason, debate, wit, analysis, historical perpective, spelling, grammar, punctuation, common sense, thought or any of the other characteristics that denote serious argument.

You forgot relevance.

Wow, first Aardman gone, now Meteor Blades is missing? Well, I feel good that two TroLLLs are better educated today.

#103 Lively: Hey thanks. Model3 had surgery recently, and while everything turned out fine, recovery took a little while.

Model3 is the wife?

Model4,
Would Model3 be the father/mother of Model4? Regardless, Hope all is well...

#175 rayra

Flat Tax! No Income tax at all on the first $20k, moderate deductions for children, and 7% on all the rest with no loopholes.
Generates MORE total Revenue than the current system, frees up a lot of Capital to really energize the Economy, AND lowers the tax burden on EVERYBODY

Sorry I'm onto your game, and you will define income for non wage earners as what ? gross or net. You will eliminate tax cheats by legitimising it ?

Not buying that one, sorry.

#171 Gymnast 3/17/2004 12:28PM PST

Who's Jennifer Lopez ? for that matter who's David Cay Johnston ?

Sorry don't watch MTV

Too bad, Rayra. You tried to fool it with your wiley game but it was too wiley for you. ;-)

Although I can't say I've done a whole heck of a lot of research on it, the flat tax certainly gets my attention as they would take less of my money. I also remember reading about a group that was trying to do away with all income taxes and all state taxes, and replace with a 25% federal sales tax. At first it sounded awful to me. 25% sales tax! But then I started doing the math on how much I spend that would be subject to a sales tax and, for my family at least, I came out way ahead with the sales tax idea. Have you heard of this?

#176 John Gibbon: Yep. And I wouldn't want anyone to waste a pixel on that cowardly little postit. Many of us watched yesterday as he curled up into a little ball to avoid a direct question. That's when he wasn't hurling insults at anyone within earshot, and praising himself. It was creepy really.

I've go no respect or time for true trolls like him. The Internet equivalent of the flaming bag of poo on the doorstep.

---

Thanks for the well-wishing guys. Things went fine, just slowly on the recovery. Unfortunately, I can't tell ya who Model3 is though!

#182, postit. You posted the first reference to Johnston. Forget what you posted, postit? Check your rear view mirror, you have reached the point where you have run up on your own ass and it looks like there is no stopping you now.

Postit = VFI

cba where are you and your clock?

Renna and Rayra, I like the consumption tax idea and the flat tax a whole lot better than the system we had now.

While we're dreaming [:-)], I'd love to see the Federal workforce cut 20%, the cabinet consolidated from 15 into no more than 10 departments, across-the-board cuts of 20-25% for all non-military government agencies, social security privatization... et cetera, then we could get those rates down to something real low.

#180 postit

If you've got tax cheats with a progressive system and you have tax cheats with a flat tax system, then that leaves you with the objections to leveling the tax against the middle class and eliminating income taxes for the poor.

Is that where you want to stand?

#188 Reminds me of an old Calvin and Hobbes - "And as long as I'm dreaming, I'd like a pony." How 'bout social security opt-out? They can keep every darn penny they've taken so far if they just LET ME GO!

gymnast: David Cay Johnston is the the senior economic reporter for the New...York...Ti...you know the rest. Really though, he wrote a good book, but it was better the first time I read it when it was called "Take the Rich off Welfare".

How 'bout social security opt-out? They can keep every darn penny they've taken so far if they just LET ME GO!

Good Lord, Yes. Get me the Hell out of this socialist Ponzi scheme.

V the K: But FICA taxes are a flat tax and Social Security only taxes up to your first $87,000 in earnings.

At least half the federal taxes on income act like they're prudent.

#180 postit

Sorry I'm onto your game, and you will define income for non wage earners as what ? gross or net. You will eliminate tax cheats by legitimising it ?

For once, you've said something I agree with. Let's tax gross income for non wage earners. Go get those tax cheats Teddy Kennedy, John Kerry, and George Soros. Charge!!! Tax the trust funds!!! You go, boy.

#185 rara

Twist in the wind friend, I'm not listening to that siren song.

#161 Andrew

No, the author of the article actually went to the trouble of showing what those supposed "votes against weapons systems" really were. The majority of the "examples" were taken from two votes on the entire defense appropriation bill, one a conference report, in which he (and other Democrats and Republicans as well) voted No. I guess you could also say that Kerry and those other Senators were voting to elminate the armed forces -- but then the lie would be too transparent. The No vote only meant that the bill as a whole was unacceptable and that it should come back in a different version. So far I haven't seen anything that addressed precisely what Kerry found objectionable about those bills, only that it's rather unlikely that it was every single weapons system contained in the bill.

"/idot" I assume that's some cute weblog namecallling. Maybe try adressing the merits of the matter next time.

If you like, I will try to find the link for you and then you can tell me what was wrong with their analysis

#187 quark2 3/17/2004 12:59PM PST

Postit = VFI

WTF is VFI, she keeps talking VFI and clocks, someone check her meds !

If I were John Kerry I could be quoted as saying something like:

"I actually did invite postit to my party, before I told him not to show up because he wasn't welcome” he told a group of regulars at a midnight appearance at Mean Mr. Mustards."

And postit would still think I was his friend. And then loan me $20 to buy beer.

#182 cheezdit

What's MTV?

Based on your past performance, I'd say you're about 3 posts away from doing another "MR WIZARD!"

Will you stomp out in a snit again, whinging that our paltry intellects are not a proper foil for your might debating skills?

My sis and her hubby are CPAs. They know and work with hundreds of other accountants. Everyone thinks the accountants would be out of a job if we all could fill out our 1040s on the back of a postcard (i.e., the flat tax)? Heck no. Every CPA they know is for the flat tax.

#189 Axiom aka Malik Al-Malook 3/17/2004 01:00PM PST

#180 postit

If you've got tax cheats with a progressive system and you have tax cheats with a flat tax system, then that leaves you with the objections to leveling the tax against the middle class and eliminating income taxes for the poor.

Is that where you want to stand?

No, it leaves me not wanting to enlarge the tax cheat class to a flood of biblical proportions.

Rayra: Good story my father told me. He was at a statewide meeting to develop a Republican party strategy focusing on ways to get the Feds to spend more money in Illinois.

One guy stood up and said "We're sending $1 to Washington and only getting back 75 cents. We should get $1 back in spending."

* round of applause *

My dad gets up and says "If we're only getting 75 cents back, I say we only send 75 cents in the first place.".

* standing ovation *

I think we've chewed all the flavor out of this mousie.

if we all could fill out our 1040s on the back of a postcard

You've gone and made me nostalgic for the days when Republicans were putting forth real reform ideas ... instead of lining up like pigs at the trough.

#191 Axiom aka Malik Al-Malook 3/17/2004 01:04PM PST

gymnast: David Cay Johnston is the the senior economic reporter for the New...York...Ti...you know the rest. Really though, he wrote a good book, but it was better the first time I read it when it was called "Take the Rich off Welfare".

Thanks I'll get it, maybe, I'm up to my ears in Blair books and Palast, just finished Suskind/O'Neil.

For a non political good read I would recommend Barbara Tuchman especially "Guns of August"

See, isn't discussing real ideas much more intellectually stimulating then playing Whack-A-TroLLL?

(Not that Whack-a-TroLLL is without its charms, but this tax discussion demonstrates the difference between a.) smart people with real ideas and b.) dembots with other people's talking points.)

No, it leaves me not wanting to enlarge the tax cheat class to a flood of biblical proportions.

So if you have a flat tax you have MORE tax cheats? How do you arrive at this conclusion?

If Mr. and Mrs. Millionaire are paying 36% of their net income to the Federal government and with a flat tax they would be paying say 18% of their income they'd be MORE likely to cheat at the flat tax rate?

I just flipped a coin ten times and it landed on the edge everytime. Do you get the same results?

What about a 10% flat tax + a 10% consumption tax + a Constitutional Amendment requiring a 2/3rds vote for any change in the tax rate?

That's right, Mr. Gibbon, I'sa so scared o' th' intellectual fahrhpowah heah that ah jus' cut an' run at the firs' sign o' flak. Or, maybe, I merely spend a little time earning a living in between posts.

As for cutting and pasting from DU, I visited that site exactly once months ago. My excerpt from the Army Times editorial is from my own saved version.

And as already pointed out, it was a proposed reduction of a proposed INCREASE in benefits.

Sorry, these weren't proposed increases. They were already in place, although they had been so only briefly, and the Pentagon opposed extending them. Ultimately, it's true, the increases were extended, and I never claimed otherwise.

As for your daisy cutter rebuttals, V the K, I have no doubt you think a lot of your replies are da Bomb. Dudmeisters often can't tell explosions from self-puffery.

Oh shit. You're reading Palast?

If you're going to read Palast you need to read Milton Friedman too. Reading Palast alone is excrutiatingly painful. In fact, maybe the Americans with Disabilities Act needs an update to include Palast Syndrome.

Tax Systems

1. The rate tables are the easiest part of the Code -- whether flat or graduated. The hard part is figuring out what is income and when it is realized -- earned. All those problems remain with a flat tax.

2. Compared to a VAT, consumption or sales tax, an income tax actually encourages innovation and risk taking. Why? Because if you are starting a business and are not making a profit yet, you don't pay any tax. Not only that, if you take a risk and lose your investment, you can take a deduction against other income you've earend. You only pay tax once you've actually started making money. VAT, Sales and Consumption Taxes are a drag on your business from the very start.

#211 V the K 3/17/2004 01:30PM PST

What about a 10% flat tax + a 10% consumption tax + a Constitutional Amendment requiring a 2/3rds vote for any change in the tax rate?

Sounds great, just hold off till I can build up enough capital to ween myself off the salary teet, won't be but another 20 years if I don't eat or pay the mortgage.

#209 V the K, exactly the point of my 25% sales tax question - call it a Mr. Holland's Opus diversion that I actually might enjoy discussing.

#213 Axiom aka Malik Al-Malook 3/17/2004 01:33PM PST

Oh shit. You're reading Palast?

If you're going to read Palast you need to read Milton Friedman too. Reading Palast alone is excrutiatingly painful. In fact, maybe the Americans with Disabilities Act needs an update to include Palast Syndrome.

Aw come on he NAILS you guys.

#154
RIP Ford,

It wasn't actually meant as an attack - you and I are on the same wavelength and all our messages are anyway written at great speed. I just couldn't see anything that indicated a specific nationality.

And, yes, you can get me on the grammar most of the time - I am Danish.

Now that this thread has been diverted to tax issues:

The flat income tax is conceptually a great idea. It needs to include dividend and capital gains as well as gross income so as to be fair. BUT - there will be serious dislocations to 1) the building industry, as home mortage interest would no longer be tax deductible, and 2) charities and their beneficiaries, as charitable contributions would no longer be tax deductible. If we're willing to live with that, then let's go flat tax, with an exclusion for the first 30-40K of income.

The national sales tax is a terrible idea, not only for its pre-emption of state sales taxes, but also because it is not progressive (like our current income tax) or neutral (like a flat tax would be), but actually regressive. Poor people paying sales taxes would actually pay a GREATER percentage of their income as taxes than rich people. And that is not good social policy in any situation.

I like Bush's ideas re: social security - I think it should be partially privatized. The only other alternative is to raise the age of benefit receipt by several years, to account for greatly increased longevity over what was occurring in 1940 when the system was set up. The Democrats are demagoguing on this issue, unwilling to admit that their "solution" means raising social security payroll taxes.

Speaking of Palast and nailing, I heard he took a few swings crucifying the Venezuelan voters trying to recall Hugoing Chavez.

#218 odin

Sorry man, if it makes you feel any better English, is my first language. :P

@184 Model4

Go back and reread 182...just to give you a clue how mindless this VFI type troll is. :)

Glad to hear the anon Model3 is recovering.

#214 Steve Young
Good points. Of course once the graduated tables are agreed upon they are easy enough to look up, but a lot of time and effort and politics goes into where those dividing points are and what the different rates will be for each range. Also, the majority of my time filling out taxes is spent going from form to form adding this deduction and subtracting that one, multiplying by this factor, and so on, not deciding what goes into box #1. Flat tax would eliminate that.

As to your second point, a non-economist like myself would have tended to look at it simply that a tax discourages that which is taxed. So an income tax would discourage raising one's income while a sales tax would discourage spending. Your points are well taken.

quark2 (#187),

I believe cba is only known for her prescience on predicting which "That's it! I'm outa here" posters will be back, and how soon, before they are.

It's took view from Ireland nearly a year of her banal BBC-quoting topic-changing tactic to get the boot.

Yair made some of the most juvenile, arsine, ill-considered, and outright disgusting comments for a long time. His BS was so foul it's now associated to him: Globular clusters anyone?

He who shall not (etc.) loused up the place for over a year with his vitriolic Jew-hate rantings, and how unfairly balanced taxation was in the US. He wrote such endless nonsense that Charles had to create a character limiter (that's why you see the Character left: counter below the comments box.

warmongeringinfidel, sheese what piles of crap he used to dump around here before he was sent packing.

Should I go on?

So, hit them with the hard facts over and over again. They'll either turn tail and run from the Clue-bat™ ® © or they'll reform. It takes a lot to get banned. (well, except for certain extreme issues, and rightly so.)

Charles has more patience than anyone I know, except maybe Ariel. (Hey Ariel, How do like this snow?) And I for one think that is a laudable characteristic.

Keep up the good work Charles, You've made a world of difference in this world, not just with your music, but with your honesty and temperament as well. You are first among equals, and should be proud of your achievements. And you run a great blog.

Once again folks.

Postit = VFI

and it's getting under its skin.

cba, never mind I have your clock and it's ticking!

Troll swarm...hmmm...Bush's poll numbers must be up.

Taxes? Lower them.
That is all.

#224 Geepers

Are you in MA too?

papijoe (#224),

No Columbus Ohio, Ariel is working in town for a little while. My parents do live just outside of Boston, right now though, they're in Colorado. It's not snowing there.

@224 Geepers

Hrmmm, yeah I were here for the action of deletion for most except for that last one you posted.
I like seeing troll kebobs in the making.

We need a couple more of our troll skinners to show up, and then let the barbeque begin! :)

Does Kerry have any advisors?
Do they actually listen to what he actually says?

Maybe it doesn't matter, all he really is about is getting out there and ending his commericals with "My name is not George Bush, and I approved, and disapproved this message"

#219 Gordon

Is this the real Gordon?

I agree with most of your post, but what percentage would you assign to dividends when imposing a flat tax? There is already a double-dip taxation on dividends now (taxed before distrubution and taxed when received by individual), but if a fair percentage was assigned that did not hamper private investment it could well be a manageable and a positve move.

Your observation about national sales tax--- dead on. To avoid paying high national sales tax, this would encourage even more black marketing and smuggling to avoid paying them. The poor would be the most effected.

108 --

On the subject of outsourcing, James Glassman has an interesting observation:

Sen. John Kerry is fond of calling CEOs who employ foreigners "Benedict Arnolds," after the despicable Revolutionary War turncoat.

But look at H.J. Heinz & Co., the family business of Kerry and his wife Teresa. Of the 79 factories that the food-processor owns, 57 (a felicitous number!) are overseas. According to its website, Heinz is making ketchup, pizza crust, baby cereal and other edibles in such countries as Poland, Venezuela, Botswana, China, Thailand and India.

[Link: www.techcentralstation.com...]

quark2 (#231),

Boooy Howdy! Troll barbecue! I got my big wooden spoon, and my my troll bib on. Let's roast some of them suckers! Get the fire going.

One good thing about troll swarms, my scrolling finger is now strong enough to pick up a Volkswagen. If this keeps up to the election, and I think it will, the neighbor's Navigator should be no problem, either...

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." -- Groucho Marx (compliments of quotedb.com)

andthenblammo! (#236), LMAO!

Buckeye Abroad, Are you agreeing with Gordon?! ;-) (Is it snowing in Germany?)

This link has a good analysis of Kerry's dog (which served in Vietnam).

[Link: thoughtsonline.blogspot.com...]

lesLein (#239),

That can't be for real, can it?

#238 Geepers

Hey, how you doing? The boss keeping you late still ;). Looks like I will be home again in late September--- maybe we can scout up some tickets for a home game?!

Yes, I am agreeing with Gordon's opinion in his post #219. I will give credit where it's due. I will even stop scrolling over his name and read what he has to say in the future.

No snow--- hit 67 degrees today. Cold front moving in on Friday off the North Sea.

#243 Rayra: Not true. See my post at #197 which discusses what most of those supposed votes against weapons systems actually were. Just good creative writing by the folks at the RNC.

#233 Buckeye Abroad, Gordon - A flat tax will never happen. Gordon, you only scratched the surface in post #219 of the problems that a flat tax would cause. How would you "flatten" Schedules C (profit from sole proprietorship) and E (profit from rental activity)? Taxpayers who invest abroad would still be subject to foreign income taxes. How would you eliminated the double-taxation from foreign investment? I could go on and on.

#245 David Simon

Ewww its going to be an accounting thread-- I love it!

It was a suggestion, but it would simply the tax code some, but there would still be loads of exemptions and deferrals (esp. for sole proprietorships and small business owners) to make it fair-- won't be easy. After deductions, where is the problem with applying a flat tax on rental income?

True, a flat tax will never happen as the flat tax would be lobbied heavily against by tax lawyers and the ACLU.

242 Rayra

Ah here it is...a nice summary of the type of anti-law-abiding-gun-owner nonsense Kerry stands for.

Postit, see your post #163 and then come back after checking how many cylinders you're running on today.

244 Steve Young

No the thing that frightens/angers many on this site is that Kerry's obvious disdain for the US military...not the soldiers necessarily, but the more important concept of the very institution. He, like Hillary Clinton, has believed from his youth that the US military is a corrupt instrument for evil that has to be restrained at every turn, instead of a somewhat flawed institution which should, overall, be proud of its past achievements. His voting record somewhat conceals this, as the Congress was intentionally designed to restrain the passions of individual senators. Believe me, if Kerry ever gained the White House, we'd see a return to Clintonesque head-in-the-sand attitudes toward the DoD--the "let 'em wither on the vine" approach, while he whisked around the world on mostly-unfruitful diplomatic jaunts, cheered on by Europeans sycophants. This at a time when Americans by and large yearn for a strong leader.

Russia has a flat tax system. Maybe we should just copy theirs?

Something is wrong when the former Soviet Union is less socialist than the former defender of capitalism. (On one issue only, though.)

250 Rayra

(shudder) I can't imagine living in CA, not least of which for this reason. How's socialism working out for ya?...yeah, thought so.

252 Atomic Redneck

heh, didn't know that. The more I learn about it (the flat-tax system, not Russia) the more I think it'd be okay. Sure would be nice to start reining in the behemoth that is the Federal Tax Code.

#246 Buckeye Abroad - LOL! If we turn this into an accounting thread, Charles will ban us.

After deductions, where is the problem with applying a flat tax on rental income?

Would you retain the deduction for depreciation? What about the passive loss rules? Would a vacation home that was rented out part-time be treated as a second residence or a rental property?

Okay, this is getting way too geeky, so I'm going to stop. But I agree with you, some simplification is definitely in order.

Kerry must think his constituents are amazingly stupid.

If anyone could vote for this guy after that comment - they have to be beyond stupid.

Help counter-act George Soros and his illegal soft money pouring into Kerry's campaign.
Right NOW donations to Republicans are transparent while soft money donations to the Democrats in many cases are hidden and in direct violation of the law.

Make a donation to anti-tin foil hat man.
[Link: www.georgewbush.com...]

#255 David Simon: Yes, there are few things to think about if we go to a flat tax scheme.

That's because our income tax system has morphed from a revenue collection device to an instrument of social policy. The question is whether the whole thing can ever be unraveled. Congress and Reagan started in 1986, but since then we've messed it up again even further.

#258 Iron Fist:

To think that today you can order a rifle over the internet in Russia, but can't in the USA.

Maybe if it was labeled, "7.92 mm Pez Dispenser" on the Customs declaration...

258/259 Iron Fist

LOL

260 Rayra

Yeah, tis so, but the damage wrought by all those stupid initiatives will handcuff the state for at least the next few years. A lot needs to be undone first.

I've also been very pleased to see the growing numbers of CCW laws.

#255 David Simon

Accountants are such misunderstood and hated folk ;).

Depreciation is definetly a deduction in my book, but how long is the life of the property (30 years)?

When talking about passive loss rules -- individual or married filing jointly? Eligble taxpayers woudl be able to deduct unlimited real estate activity losses from active (keyword here) income is something I would endorse.

Would a vacation home that was rented out part-time be treated as a second residence or a rental property?

Depends on the length of time it was rented.

Let's stop. I put to many first (and last) dates to sleep with these type of topics.

OT- I was out one night in a pub in Dublin with some friends several years ago. I had a conversation with an Scottish accountant on the bar with a woman between us waiting for her order. After 10 minutes of waiting she sighed and said in a thich Glasgow accent, "how low I have fallen to be trapped between two accountants on a Saturday night".

250 He has certainly voted agaisnt missile defense and the B-2, voted for some cuts in defense spending and not others.

Fred Kaplan of Slate gives this analysis:

[Link: slate.msn.com...]

The Washington Times gives this analysis, though some of it is tied to the discredited appropriations vote cited by the RNC. Of course, Kerry gives his dumb "I'm a veteran response."

[Link: www.washtimes.com...]

Even the bill he proposed to cut $6 billion from defense and intelligence is what, a 1.5% to 2% cut in constant dollars and maybe a 4% cut taking into account increasing costs (if the $6 bllion cut was in constant dollars and not compared to expected increases).

He's certainly on the low end of defense spending -- I personally don't think that qualifies as eviscerating or dismantiling our defense department and intelliegence agences.

#258 Iron Fist

You have not heard the word my friend. Your next purchase should be this:

M96

251 Thanks for the thoughful comment. I'll keep that in mind as I watch what he says and evaluate him over the coming months. If true he's not the guy we want leading us at this time. But I don't want to make the decision based on bs spin from either side.

P.S. Great name. One of my favorite joking expressions is "that really chaps my hide" and the RoP is pretty much at the top of my list of chappers.

265 Steve Young

[Kerry's] certainly on the low end of defense spending -- I personally don't think that qualifies as eviscerating or dismantiling our defense department and intelliegence agences.

In an era of constantly-evolving threats, standing still equates to moving backward (evisceration). Following the conventional military wisdom of the 90's only gave us 9/11. Failure to learn the lessons of 9/11 will only open the door to a very serious escalation, with American civilians at stake. What I am saying is that he is only going as far left in his defense votes as he knows is politically feasible. Unfortunately for the country, it's extremely effective, as it stymies any effort to reform the DoD into an effective terrorism-/rogue-state-fighting organization. The lesson in continuous modernization we once learned the painful way (Pearl Harbor), and we were playing catch-up throughout WW2. The Cold War kept us on our toes, and Reagan (love him or hate him) you have to admit did wonderful things for the US military, to the degree that we outpaced the USSR and convinced them to quit. Since then we fell asleep, and Kerry would prefer we stayed asleep, polishing our rifle barrels and practicing air-air refueling, but not doing anything transformational, and CERTAINLY not using the military in the WOT. Combine this with his high distrust for the CIA, and what tool does he have left for fighting terror? Hmmm, lessee, TSA, the FBI, NTSB, the Coast Guard, and the Daughters of the American Revolution. Sounds to me that he wants crime scene investigators and guys with pistols to defend us from megalomaniacs. No thank you!

My first attempt at doing my own hosting - I think it works.

John "Heinz Waffles" Kerry

#269 Ntropy:

Oh, that's good! And not having the butter drip down his upper lip area is very tasteful!

Geepers (#240):

According to Kerry it's for real. If it's a shaggy dog story, it originated with Kerry:

[Link: www.humaneusa.org...]

A good tax system will punish success and reward failure.

Since capital creates jobs we need to tax capital to the max. Too many people working raises demand and prices. If we can keep enough people out of work we can put an end to inflation.

Any tax system you can understand will have too many or too few loop holes for business.

Tax simplification will destroy HR Block. I'm again it.

We also need more regulations to prevent busineses from doing all the bad things they contemplate. Like not hiring Americans. Hiring Americans of the wrong color. etc. If we make enough regulations we can strangle new entrants to the market which would be bad for established businesses.

Then we will need fat police in company cafeterias and watchers to make sure American businesses only use 8 1/2 by 11 paper instead of that wimpy European stuff.

We need high taxeson imported stuff to raise prices to the American consumer so more Americans have jobs and low taxes for exports (especially farm exports) so we can steal farm jobs from the poor of the third world.

Plus I got a lot of ideas for making businesses really moral by giving tax breaks to prayer meetings held on company premises.

Then we will need a battery powered car mandated for all chief executives and time off for tree hugging on the equinoxes.

In addition I think we need more paid holidays and more accountants to see that corporate executives are not getting paid too much and that janitors are not getting paid too little.

We also need to regulate spitting into water fountains which is adding pollution to our estuaries and tidal zones.

A wetland inspector will be needed by every property owner to make sure that owners are not filling in wetlands (mud puddles) during the rainy season.

I'd ask for a special department of business and job creation discouragement but I think I have outlined enough really good proposals for discouraging job creation and capital formation.

LesLein (#271),

That's absolutely incredible. I think he just makes this stuff up as he goes.

#269 Ntropy -

Er, the label is upside-down, relative to the actual top of the bottle - that must be a valuable collector's item. ;)

But LOL!