extra-judicial killing

or extra-judicilicious

Sick people who either do not know the difference between right and wrong, or for the sake of political expediency, ignore it.

I'll tell you what is wrong with Europe: All the brave men and women who used to live there moved to the US, or died in WWI and WWII. Everyone else who remains are absolute pussies. Very sad.

I can't believe it. My arch enemy Saruman has been killed!

Fine examples of the high "art" of moral relativism, artfully done.

And I certainly don’t recall anything close to a similar level of outrage and condemnation the last time Hamas blew up a bus full of Israeli schoolchildren, or bombed an ice cream parlor full of kids and their parents, or committed mass murder at a Passover dinner.

Like Hello? They're Jews. So, like, umhh, duh.

It is pretty sad that all the news surrounding the appropriate death of a terrorist is so utterly predictable.
Aarrrghhh!

Most Europeans have no concept of "right vs wrong", just "gentile vs jew".

Thanks, Charles.

Does anyone believe these people are really mourning the death of this filthy monster?

I can think of one person... :-)

Compare this to the deafening silence that follows when Israelis are murdered by the dozen. Fuck the Euroweasels. I saw Jack Straw on TV last night, all full of indignation. What a prat.

The World should be congratulating Israel for having waited till they could take out this vermin without collateral damge, at great cost to Israeli lives.

Murderer in a wheelchair BBC, get it straight. Murderer and inciter to murder. I feel sorry for the wheelchair though.

Europe is scared.
Sad thing to see. It's like a person yelling "Don't kill me, kill them".
Shame on them.

Yawn.

Europe sucks. Thank goodness my great grandparents left that continent.

I am not surised by the comments from EU diplomats. It is what I expected. They make pefunctory condemnations of Hamas when they murder innocent Israelis, yet save their true scoldings for Israel when it protects its citizens and destroys its avowed enemies.

BRITAIN: Jack Straw, Foreign Secretary: “It is unacceptable. It is unjustified and it is very unlikely to achieve its objective.

Jack, the objective of the mission to kill Yassin was to make him dead. It succeeded.

"An elderly man in a wheelchair": makes him sound as helpless as Leon Klinghoffer instead of Hell on wheels.

OT: American embassy in Syria warns Americans in the area of possible retaliation for Yassin killing.

One day, these people will realize that if you don't kill the terrorists first, you will be either asked to surrender or be killed.

There are too many who don't understand that there is a WoT.

This is a war on all terror organizations - not just al-Qaeda and not over just 9/11. Terror has been a tactic and effort that has been used for centuries - and Israel has been faced with it all of the 20th century, and the US and West have been faced with it since 1979.

It's pitiful that people are trying to distance themselves from delivering on a terror enabler what he delivered on hundreds of innocent civilians because they fear that if they don't - they will be targets.

Wake up, you are already targets.

#1 WriterMom: Ahahahhahaahaha!

Time for Israel to call Europe's bluff on terrorism. Well ok, it's well past time for that, but the wake of the Madrid bombings was a perfect opportunity.

Flat out ask them in a public forum whether it is terrorism when a plane, train or busload of innocents is deliberately targeted for murder... even if the passengers are Jews. Ask where the statements are deploring the assault on Zawahiri, killer of mainly Christians. State that European nations are welcome to take in as many members of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hizb'Allah and Fatah as they like, but as long as they are next to Israel, they are enemies. They may turn themselves in to Israeli authorities at the border and face trial, eliminating the need for any violence. Should they not do so, they will be dealt with as the outlaw enemies they are.

Then for leverage, time to toss the issue out on the table, in between where Bush and Kerry are sitting. With both scrambling to out-support Isreal, that's a lot of diplomatic cover. Opportunities like these don't come around very often. I've personally seen enough decades of Israel under seige.

What a bunch of Hypocrites,

France and Russia are notorious for committing extra-judicial assasinations.

Ask Russia about justice with the Chechen rebels

And France has a history with North Africa that exceeds this type of assasination.

I'm going to dig up the dirt on them..

Perhaps these whiners (BBC, Toadies, Jackie Straw, and others) are worried that if there were a lasting peace that they would have to get day jobs? They have never had a sensible solution but regularly criticise the Israelis, the Americans, and others who have decided that to stand by and do nothing is not an option...and I hope he reviews the dead virgins and then can't find his Viagra...

Charles, you are right as rain. There is something very wrong with Europe and it's spelled A-N-T-I-S-E-M-I-T-I-S-M. Thank God my relatives left, and we're not Jewish.

I wanted to go overseas once and see all the art and culture in Spain, Germany, England and (cough) France.
But I don't anymore.

BTW, anyone waiting for the European reaction to the Madrid bombings, the "wake-up call", should stop waiting.

Speaking of which, thanks to the Spanish defection (to the Eurocommies, rather than to the Dar al-Islam), France, Germany and Spain now have a veto in majority votes in the EU. They can also control the Commission (who draft the laws) because they have over 40% of the (expanded) EU population. Poland has dropped its reservations to the current constitution.

If you think the mourning for Yassin is bad, wait until the Eurocommies have full control.

FRANCE: Herve Ladsous, foreign ministry spokesman: “France condemns the action taken against Sheikh Yassin, just as it has always condemned the principle of any extra-judicial execution as contrary to international law. The attack bears a serious risk of increasing tensions in the whole of the region.”

Of course when France murdered a greenpeace sailor blowing up "The Rainbow Warrior" ship, it was just
accidental collateral damage.

Motto of all Europeans...Appease, Surrender and Collaborate...they have made a great study of the French over the past century. It's like I tell my Quebecois co-workers, you guys hide your emasculation and cowardice behind sanctimonious pacifism, always knowing that the hated Anglo-Saxon nations will ride to their rescue. These people are all beneath contempt and we should never again sacrifice one drop of our sweat or blood to protect them...they are unworthy of it and I spit in their general direction.

Cry for the murderering Scum, but spit on his victims.

F*ck Europe, Israel should keep this up, until there is nothing left of Hamas or like minded groups.

They can't build a wall to protect themselves because G~d forbid the Arabs claiming to be Palestinian's will have to turn inward and focus on what's' really making their lives shitty, then they'll have to start you know...progressing, and would have to actually start doing something with their miserable lives or then seething and killing little kids.

So, then they decide to do what any sane Government would do, start clipping the scumbags that terrorize their Citizens, blowing them up before they can harm anymore innocents, and what do they get? They get slammed by Countries in Europe and elsewhere for trying to do what they have the right to do.

So, I say Israel has the right approach, Terrorize the Terrorists.

Jack Scarecrow thinks this might curry some favour with the seething Muslim masses and perhaps spare a British landmark of two. Rots of ruck, as they say in Hebrew.

We are not amused, Mr. Secretary:

I don’t believe Israel will benefit from the fact that this morning an (elderly man) in a wheelchair has been the target of assassination

Oh, how frightfully witty. The honorable Mr. Straw intends an obvious reference to the murder of Leon Klinghoffer. I'm sure the Party Opposite is dreadfully amused.

If I were there, I'd punch out the top of your derby, and then I'd stick your bumbershoot where no doctor would ever find it, you git.

If they used to beat and sodomize you at your old school, they didn't do a thorough enough job to suit me.

I know the Queen is a nice old lady, but goddamn it ... Magna Carta and all that crap aside, why couldn't she chop off a few heads over there? Hell, they chopped off King Charles' head. What would be the big deal if they pruned a few snotty ministers now and then?

Straw's comments are particularly obnoxious, and make me ashamed to think he is the Foreign Secretary of the country in which I was born.

Charles: You are white on rice here. These countries are afraid of their tiny, miniscule Deathcult™ allies living within their borders. Instead of dealing with this dilemna of having suicidal [bigoted word]s waiting to blow themselves up beneath Big Ben, the Eiffel Tower or the Kremlin their governments will do anything to keep the splodeys attacking Israel.

"The soul of Europe"? Europe has no soul. There is no doubt some individuals have not sold their souls, yet, for a mess of pottage. Most of those Euros who are brave and soulful died long ago or left for better shores; most who remain are only the cowards, the appeasers, the selfish, the lazy, the deluded, the passive, the dust in the winds of war. Pray to G_d that those who yet believe, both here in the land of the free and over there will have enough strength in their conviction to carry on in the face of firestorm of the coming Islamic hell.

(#9) Colt

I can think of one person... :-)

One of the individuals quoted in the article?

Solana?

It's also cute how France gets two condemnations in the article.

scaramouche (#16): any American in Syria was probably up to no good anyway

From todays Wall Street Journal online poll:

What should the US policy be on Israel's assinations of Palestinian leaders?

With 780 votes so far...

The killings should be condemned:...292 votes
The US should remain neutral:...189 votes
Israel's actions should be supported:..299 votes

Where's Kofi with his statement condemning this? Did they call an emergency meeting so they could all wring their hands and cluck over the death of a mass-murderer. Yassin's death means there's one less bastard alive to order the deaths of Jews. Kofi must be devastated.

You nailed it Charles. The europussies are afraid that they will be the victims of an Islamofascist retaliatory attack.

Oh c'mon! He was 66 years old! so much for "elderly"!

In case you're curious,
Some Arab cartoons for tomorrow,
uploaded on an Israeli forum:
[Link: www.hydepark.co.il...]

So far:
1) Hamas website
2) Jordanian cartoonist Imad Hajaj (the person in the wheelchair is Sharon)
3) Al-khaleej, Abu-Dhabi

More will be uploaded soon I guess.

FRANCE: Herve Ladsous, foreign ministry spokesman: “France condemns the action taken against Sheikh Yassin, just as it has always condemned the principle of any extra-judicial execution as contrary to international law.

Balls. France has always condemned the principle of *any* firm response to provocations, including killing, extrajudicial or otherwise. Why do you think it's so hard to get them to extradite dirty bastards wanted for things that could get them death in the US?

The comments about Yassin being elderly are absurd, especially when they come from Jack Straw. Compare what Israel did to kill a 66 year old to what Britain did to kill a 67 year old (Saddam).

Wake me up if a European politician makes an intelligent remark about something.

There was a collective shriek of outrage when Israel destroyed Saddam's nuclear complex, too. Yassin is a human version (inhuman, actually) of Osirek.

I like the response IsraellyCool offers to Jack Straws' condemnation of Israeli self defense.

You know what, Mr Straw? I condemn your condemnation. It is unacceptable, unjustified and very unlikely to achieve its objective.

[Link: www.gravett.org...]

you are right. its about fear!

the most disgusting thing i read today ist this interview with in the germany often consulted "Nahost-Experte" Udo Steinbach:

===
Montag 22. März 2004, 17:51 Uhr
Nahost-Experte befürchtet palästinensischen Terror in Europa

München (AP) Nach dem tödlichen Luftangriff auf Hamas-Gründer Scheich Ahmed Jassin befürchtet Orient-Experte Udo Steinbach eine Ausweitung des Nahostkonfliktes auf Europa. «Die Palästinenser und Hamas werden natürlich nach jeder Möglichkeit suchen, Selbstmord-Attentate fortzusetzen», sagte der Direktor des Deutschen Orient-Institutes in Hamburg der Münchner Tageszeitung «tz» (Dienstagausgabe). Der Hass nicht nur auf die Israelis, sondern auch auf den Westen in der gesamten Region werde größer werden.

Damit wachse auch die Gefahr, «dass ein islamistisch begründeter Terror, so wie in Madrid begonnen, nach Europa hinüber getragen wird», sagte Steinbach weiter. Er sprach von einem Anschlag, der «völkerrechtswidrig, so wie es die israelische Besatzung ist». Die Tötung von Scheich Jassin sei nur der letzte Akt eines Dramas, das sich unter dem Aspekt der präventiven Tötungen seit langem abspiele.
===

in short:

Steinbach fears that Hamas extents to Europe as result of Jassins Liquidation.
He tells the interviewre the Liquidation and the "israeli occupation" against is against international law.

Eugen

#31 SoCalJustice

Well, as it happens, yes. But I was thinking of bigel :-)

#34 zulubaby

"UN Secretary General Kofi Annan condemned the attack on Monday, saying it was against international law and did nothing to further the Middle East peace process. "

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

About the "elderly" comment. I would agree that Israel should also hunt down and kill every young worshipper of the moon-god allah. It doesn't mean though, that they don't have an obligation to exterminate the leadership.

Does anyone else consider this?

Why doesn't Europe put any focus on the cesspool created, supported and tended by the Baath Party in the Middle East? Are they not aware that the Baath Party is the Nazi Party built by the Nazis through the Vichy government in Syria that then stretched into Iraq and nearly into Jordan and Egypt?

People wonder where the Jew hatred comes from, but it comes from the FUCKING NAZIS THAT FARMED THESE KILLING FIELDS.

Why is this so difficult for Europeans to comprehend? Do they not want to address this? Is this history not important to present conflict?

For me, the destruction of the Baath Party is one of the final nails in the Nazi Coffin.

#40 scaramouche

Yassin is a human version (inhuman, actually) of Osirek.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Nah, don't agree that fear is the issue. It is with AQ, but in this case it's just yet more monumental stupidity. "Why can't they all just be nice to each other, just like we did after the war?".

Anti-Semitism too, but that's not the only story or even the main one. Just abut anyone who defends himself gets bollocked by the Eurocrats.

What a similar anouncement in 1945 would have sounded like if this current mentality were in charge:

We deplore the outrageous news of what the Soviet Army has been doing in Berlin. ~ Their vicious & counter productive bombing of the innocent people in that city. ~ While we acnowledge in an abstract & impractical way that the Soviets have a right to defend themselves against any excesses that the brave resistance fighters of the wehrmacht might sometimes commit we cal on all sides to end this pointless cycle of violence.

We have heard that this vicious provocation has actually driven a poor Parkinson's disease patient & his new bride to commit suicide because of their fear of this attack. ~ Such escalations of the cycle odf violence serves no ones interrests.

It's understandable why they're harping on his age. It makes him seem more venerable and wise, a spiritual leader of advanced years who is thus revered by his devoted people. Instead of the evil and prematurely old scorpion that he really was.

"A measurable restraint is required and I don’t believe Israel will benefit from the fact that this morning an (elderly man) in a wheelchair has been the target of assassination”

This 'elderly man' was up to his f*cking neck with the blood of innocent Israelis. The islamonazis are going to find the softest target they can find (Europe) to carry out their revenge. The smell of fear coming from the EU is overpowering.

Only people left in Europe are the sons of cowards and the sons of criminals.

As Bob Dylan said:

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized,
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad.
The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad. He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him,
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac.
He's the neighborhood bully.

#46 Axiom aka Malik Al-Malook

People wonder where the Jew hatred comes from, but it comes from the FUCKING NAZIS THAT FARMED THESE KILLING FIELDS.

The Jew-hatred dates back to Mohammed.

#21 Ellen

I wanted to go overseas once and see all the art and culture in Spain, Germany, England and (cough) France.
But I don't anymore.

I second that. As a kid and young adult I always wanted to go backpacking in Europe for a summer and see the continent, but other things got in the way, and I promised myself I'd do it later. Now I wish I had, because I don't want to see what Europe is today. It would be a colossal waste of time and money, and they'd probably kill me if they found out I was a yank who doesn't hate jews.

#49 IH Soter

Don't equate the IDF with the Red Army - that is definitely a false historical parallel.

(#43) Colt

Ah - I see.

You were actually answering Charles' question, while I was in projection mode after a night of 'indiscriminately going wild' on LGF.

I'm still groggy - and it's well after noon on the East Coast.

Coffee time.

So yeah - bigel probably thinks they're all in actual mourning mode.

I think it's just Solana who'll miss him.

Well, and the CNNI anchor overnight team. They looked positively despondent all night.

halldor (#44)

Aah, there he is. He refused to condemn the last suicide bombing in Israel but he has no problem condemning the murder of an evil bastard like Yassin. The whole world has gone mad.

#53 Me

Correction - antisemitism in the Arab world was exacerbated by Mohammed.

France condemns the action taken against Sheikh Yassin, just as it has always condemned the principle of any extra-judicial execution ...

Of course DeGaulle's government not only indulged in extra-judicial executions, but in extra-judicial torture, too. I guess he must have been the President of the Belgian Congo.

And I certainly don’t recall anything close to a similar level of outrage and condemnation the last time Hamas blew up a bus full of Israeli schoolchildren, or bombed an ice cream parlor full of kids and their parents, or committed mass murder at a Passover dinner.

I'll tell you what. If Europe is motivated by fear, as you say, then maybe the problem is that Israel hasn't given them the right motivation. Maybe if thousands of Israelis took to the streets chanting "Death to Islam! Death to Europe!"; Maybe if Israel's leaders spoke of "the banks of the Seine spilling over with blood"; Maybe if mosques were burned and schools razed; Maybe then the Arabs and their pet Europeans would not take for granted the goodwill of Israel.

Just a thought.

Where's V the K?

An Israeli Yassin photo caption contest!
[Link: www.hydepark.co.il...]

Some of the good ones are already taken:
"72 virgins you say?"
"and virgin boys too?"

Arafat & Yassin:
"save me a seat, be right there"
"they promised me virgins and look what I got"

#21 Ellen -

I wanted to go overseas once and see all the art and culture in...France.

Head over to the second floor of the Art Institute of Chicago instead to see the cream of the French Impressionist crop (i.e. the crap that the clever, sophisticated French pawned off on us gauche Americans).

#56 SoCalJustice

I'll have a look at the threads when I have more time. I can only imagine... :-)

BTW, congrats on the scoop.

Colt #9

I can think of one person... :-)

Make that two people. And based on what I've seen here at LGF, I would venture there are others.

Sorry guys, this is OT. I had a conversation with some colleagues of mine over lunch, about what else, the Middle East conflict. In general, I am pro Israeli, and I believe that there can be peace, only if violence stops (see suicide bombings and the like). They consider themselves liberal, (I am a "conservative", sneer) and "I believe whatever the government (and Bush) tells me." While in fact, they are enlightened and ahead of the rest of us, who need their guidance! I even heard something about the natural gas pipelines conspiracy theory in Afghanistan. So pissed ofF! So pissed off!

Anyway, I need to do some fact checking... So can you help me find a neutral history of the Israeli-palestinian conflict, from the beginnings? Thanks alot, it would be greatly appreciated!

P.S.
I am still angry. You see, I am branded a "conservative" dumbass redneck because I voted for Republicans, while I am not one of the enlightened peace loving-I-hear-birds-singing-the-world-is-perfect-l iberals-Democrats.

More morally vacuous noodeling from the Vatican:

The Vatican said that the attacks would only lead to a cycle of violence that would not further the cause of peace in the Middle East.

"The Holy See joins the international community in condemning an act of violence that cannot be justified in any state of law. The choice of arms, resorting to terrorism on one side and reprisals on the other, humiliating the adversary, and hateful propaganda lead nowhere," the Pope's spokesman said.

#57 Zulubaby

The whole world has gone mad.

No, we are just getting more reinforcement as to who the enemies of civilization are. Who our enemies are.

Does anyone believe these people are really mourning the death of this filthy monster? No; I think the real reason for these statements is pure and simple fear.

Sorry, I don't think it's anything near as noble as fear. They truly think this action was more repugnant than the murders that Hamas routinely commits.

And the next islamist terrorist attack in Europe will be blamed directly on Israel by the sheepish leftist population of the next target country.

Blame Israel #1, America #2.

How many have blamed Russia on their most recent hit in Qatar - the assasination of the ex-Chechen leader? But I guess the Russians didn't claim their hit. Antisemitism in Russia is so huge, that even when their civilians are killed in theaters and in trains by muslim terrorists, they still manage a way to side with arab terrorists.
/spit

#52 neighbourhood bully:

Only people left in Europe are the sons of cowards and the sons of criminals.

Can you at least add the standard disclaimer..

*apart from the ones who post to LGF*

;)

Somewhat OT:

My account of an Anti Anti War Mockery that I organized in New York is on the Ivan Leninblog.

Some of those people were like soccer fans that we see on the news, very much like those Germans we can see an infamous Leni Riefenstahl movie: Crazy high on their hatred. Drunk with their self-righteousness. Blind and deaf to any opinion different from theirs.

My comrades and I subjected the beasts to our Revolutionary propaganda, and were able to turn some of them back into people.

#64 fireman

I'd guess that too, and in Solana's case I concur. Most of them, though, are just that fucking stupid.

#65 Mie

Palestine Facts and Myths & Facts Online - A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict

BTW, the latter of those was written by the guy who wrote "The Idiots' Guide to the Middle East".

Mie
___

Try this site for good maps and history on Israel and the Arabs. [Link: www.palestinefacts.org...]

I haven't seen people quoting from the Hamas charter, an organization that Mr. Yassin founded. A taste:

The enemies have been scheming for a long time, and they have consolidated their schemes, in order to achieve what they have achieved. They took advantage of key elements in unfolding events, and accumulated a huge and influential material wealth which they put to the service of implementing their dream. This wealth [permitted them to] take over control of the world media such as news agencies, the press, publication houses, broadcasting and the like. [They also used this] wealth to stir revolutions in various parts of the globe in order to fulfill their interests and pick the fruits. They stood behind the French and the Communist Revolutions and behind most of the revolutions we hear about here and there. They also used the money to establish clandestine organizations which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests. Such organizations are: the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions Clubs, B’nai B’rith and the like. All of them are destructive spying organizations. They also used the money to take over control of the Imperialist states and made them colonize many countries in order to exploit the wealth of those countries and spread their corruption therein. As regards local and world wars, it has come to pass and no one objects, that they stood behind World War I, so as to wipe out the Islamic Caliphate. They collected material gains and took control of many sources of wealth. They obtained the Balfour Declaration and established the League of Nations in order to rule the world by means of that organization. They also stood behind World War II, where they collected immense benefits from trading with war materials and prepared for the establishment of their state. They inspired the establishment of the United Nations and the Security Council to replace the League of Nations, in order to rule the world by their intermediary. There was no war that broke out anywhere without their fingerprints on it: “…As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it. Their efforts are for corruption in the land and Allah loves not corrupters.” Sura V (Al-Ma’ida—the Tablespread), verse 64

[Link: www.palestinecenter.org...]

Reasonable people can disagree about what exactly happened in 1948, or about allocation of water and other resources in the West Bank. But this insane rant puts Hamas, and everyone who subscribes to the "philosophy" of Hamas, into the category of psychotically evil anti-Semites.

How do y'all pronounce "Eurabia" in conversation?

E.U. Rabia?
You-rabia?
Your-abia?

#70

I apologize for generalizing.

Sorry for the messed-up link in the previous post. The URL is this

Please e-mail me lenin@anti-com.com if you have questions.

Goodness! DU has more sense then EU officials.

Eugen #42 Thanks for your input.

FWIW, I'll cast my vote for what's "deeply wrong with the soul of Europe" with Ellen's #21. This, of course, might require a more elastic definition of "soul" than a lot of people can swallow. But I digress.

It can't be post 3/11 fear since, as Steve Den Beste pointed out nearly a year and a half ago that Soladanaam has been implementing an anti-Israel policy within the EU for some time now:

And it's precisely the fact that the US hasn't been willing to sell Israel out that gives us influence there; it's precisely because Europe is in favor of a road map which would substantially damage Israel that Europe has no influence. Israel quite naturally won't respond the same way to external diplomatic efforts which would be substantially to its detriment, and the European idea is so starkly one-sided that it would actually be worse than the status quo.

So Solana wants an American "partner", which is to say that he wants America to turn on Israel and f**k it over by forcing Israel to make damaging concessions to the Palestinians. Solana may well get assigned an American companion, but he won't get a partner in the sense that he's using the term, because even if we assign a diplomat to work with him in the negotiations, that won't mean that we'll do what he really wants us to do. Solana is really asking for a radical change in American foreign policy towards Israel, and it's not going to happen.

Whole post is worth a read.

I guess somebody faxed a talking points memo to every lackwit and faint-heart in Europe, with the words "extra-judicial execution" underlined.

As Dirty Harry said, there's nothing wrong with a little shooting so long as the right people get shot, and if it were not for extra-judicial executions, Reinhardt Heydrich would still be alive, and the chairman of the EU.

Halldor Great to see ya here, mate! ;)

In a White House press briefing currently underway, McClellan has indicated that "Israel has the right to self defense." and that "Hamas is a terror organization." Furthermore, "Palestinians must crack down on terror."

Of course the press is pushing back in the brief over how terrible it for Israel to target someone for assassination - implying that any assassination - even that of terrorist is wrong. If fact one wanker goes on to say that since the Palestinian people saw Yassin as a "patriot" this has to be the same as endorsing the assassination of a political leader.

Unbelievable.

Still the comments from the WH compares very interestingly to the whinges from the Euro-idiots and their cowering from the threat of being victims of terror.

#66 dennisw

The Lay Catholic community is about as strong if not stronger than what the Vatican does today. I just attended a conference this weekend for Lay Catholics and the outrage directed at the Vatican was shocking. There are strong doubts about what the Vatican is doing to the Catholic Church right now.

I lend credence to the individual Catholics today much more than I do to the leadership. Just look at fools like Desmond Tutu traversing the world propheting Cosmic Justice to address poverty in the world.

I'm a devout Catholic and I won't give the church any money directly. Instead I fund individual programs that are more adherent to Catholicism than my own church hierarchy. My old local parish is employing a woman as a church lector advocating in support of female priests in the Catholic Church. The parishoners urged the parish leaders to terminate the woman or risk losing their financial support. The Pastor told the parishioners "to walk".

Slightly OT:
Just heard on the local CBC radio that two Winnipeg MPs are sponsoring a bill to have suicide bombings considered a crime against humanity (there are apparently practical implications of this, although I didn't catch the details).

The MPs are Judy Wasylicia-Leis of the NDP (the same party of which Svend Robinson {spit} is a member), and Anita Neville of the Liberal party. Both Judy and Anita are firmly pro-Israel.

#65 Mie

Yeah, join the club. I've been trying to get a good handle on the whole Israel/Palestinian history since about '99, and especially after 9/11. If you pursue it, you'll find that there is a *lot* of disinformation on both sides. However, in general, I've discovered that the Israeli side's disinformation is mostly relatively mild exaggerations and the like. The Palestinian side, as I've seen it, is pretty much made up from whole cloth. They are the most lying, evil, corrupt group of people I've ever studied. And the best part is that they've managed to convert whole swaths of western opinion to their side. It's truly amazing, and probably says more about western "intellectuals" than the Palis.

Good luck in your arguments. Hope you have better luck than I've had. Seems like people generally don't switch their way of thinking unless they do it on their own, at their own speed. Probably 1/2-3/4 of the regular LGFers used to be liberals at one time, but I bet not one of them was "converted" by anything other than their own observations of events and reasoning things through for themselves.

#69 - Castoroil

The Qataris caught two russian FSB agents who they claim killed the Chechen.
In response the Russians arrested the Qatari Judo team which was visiting Russia.
There will soon be a "prisoner exchange" :-)

Bot, Dutch Foreign Minister, does not represent me. Solana does not represent me.
In my opinion these politicians do not represent the (conservative, liberal, progressive) majority in Europe. Remember when the martyr Pim Fortuyn was murdered by an islamophiliac just before the elections took place the Dutch people voted en masse for his new party that became second largest in size while the Socialist party dropped to a humiliating fourth place.

The Dutch answer, my Spanish friends, to the murder of one man.

European socialists have sold our soul for oil since the oil weapon was demonstrated in 1973.

#87 nachtwacht

European socialists have sold our soul for oil since the oil weapon was demonstrated in 1973.

Very true - and well said.

Perhaps my memory is failing me, but didn't the U.S. hunt down some AQ guy in Yemen and kill him, uh, extra-judicially, from a drone plane? Does that explain why the U.S.'s response is so muted?

Zulubaby--Here's the condemnation from Kofi, right on schedule:
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

#82 Athos

Sounds like Howard Dean is among the WHite House press corps today.

"Some say Yassin is a descendant of the Prophet Muhammed. Does the President have any comment on the killing of the prophet's family?"

21

I wanted to go overseas once and see all the art and culture in Spain, Germany, England and (cough) France. But I don't anymore.

glad you changed your mind. one less overstuffed yahoo bitching about the size of ice-cubes and steaks on her europe-in-five-days culture-bonanza. back to daytime-television! suits u better.

#89 Seymour Paine

Yes. Furthermore, one of the dead [bigoted word]s in the truck was an American citizen. The attack was only made though after an arrest warrant was served that of course the Deathcult™ cares nothing for and just fled.

I'm sure by the now the Isrealis had provided intel to the PA to arrest and try Yassin for crimes against Israel even after Israel released him.

Is there not one country in Europe, strong enough to support this?, Publicly?

I'm waiting

Excuse me...hello..hello...I need my wheelchair back...hello...is anybody listening...Jew...my wheelchair...I need it back...please don't throw it away...how am I going to roll from virgin to virgin without my wheelchair...my wheelchair!

Right on cue! The LGF Euroweenie Mascot, spewing the usual bigoted Euroweenie stereotypes about America.

We knew there were Islamist networks in Spain, even knew who most of the people involved were," says a French counterterrorism investigator.

Moroccan officials told TIME they considered him an intermediary between various cells in that country. "His name came up very often," said a Moroccan official. "But we had no evidence he had done anything, so we could not arrest him."

source

83

Tutu is Anglican, IIRC, but otherwise your post is spot on.

Perhaps the Holy See should study St. Augustine

St. Augustine developed these principles of just war theory in the 4th century.

1. A just war can only be waged as a last resort.

2. A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority.

3. A just war can only be waged to redress a wrong suffered.

4. A war is just only if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injuries incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justified.

5. A war is just only if its goal is to re-establish peace. Moreover, the peace established as a result of war must be an improvement over circumstances that would have prevailed had war not been waged.

6. A war is just only if the violence used is proportional to the harm suffered.

7. Non-combatants are never permissible targets of war. Their deaths are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target.

Perhaps the Eurabians can predict the death of innocent Israeli civilians in the next 48-72 hours.

If you read the comments again more carefully you will see that the Eurabians are mourning any hope of a peace process not Yassin.

scaramouche (#90)

Annan condemns Yassin killing; U.N. Council consults

I knew they'd call an emergency hen party!

Does anyone believe these people are really mourning the death of this filthy monster? No; I think the real reason for these statements is pure and simple fear.

Fear was the same rationalization used for those Germans who did nothing during the Shoah. They 'said' they had no idea what was going on. But...when it was all they said they were afraid. --->Say you are afraid and you are obsolved from your sins!! Furthermore, to say one is fearful is a common rationalization given for the arab world not rising up.

Sorry, but a world who refuses to mourn the brutal and totally unjustified SLAUGHTER of innocent babies, children, mothers, fathers, grandparents, youth and the aged are not cowards for they in their hearts hate Jews. Jews have no value to them. If they did, everything would be much different right now, wouldn't it? If my passionate beliefs on this subject were untrue we would hear a loud and mighty chorus of support. But there is no support today nor in the days which led up to yassin's killing. The world is not only silent once more but deeply and emotionally sympathetic to the terrorizers. The false supposition of fearful leaders does not hold water.

It is not the arab street or their monstrous leaders I am really angry with right now it is the leaders of the so-called free world who are not mindless idiots, btw. They know exactly what they are doing. Their messages of condemnation to Israel should send chills down everyone's back and tears in ones eyes for what this world has turned into is pitiful.

rationalize according to Webster

rationalize according to Webster to bring into accord with reason or cause something to seem reasonable: as a : to substitute a natural for a supernatural explanation of b : to attribute (one's actions) to rational and creditable motives without analysis of true and especially unconscious motives.

intransitive senses : to provide plausible but untrue reasons for conduct.

#4 Gandalf 3/22/2004 10:00AM PST

I can't believe it. My arch enemy Saruman has been killed!

!!! That is exactly waht I said when I saw him! He is identical to Saruman!!

My friend called me yesterday at night about these joyful news. In this sad world, no matter what the casualties are, it is important to battle evil. It is horrible to imagine what these animals are going to try to do, but in order for Israelis to live in their country with no fear of being murdered or harassed, they have to go into a combat with these creatures. My heart is with Israel, may God help them.

But then, to the Eurabians, those things don’t count as “extra-judicial killings

There must, in fact, be laws in the first place for a killing to be "extra-judicial". This is where barbarians will always have the advantage. Palestinian terrorists never act "inside" "outside" "above" or "below" the law, because they have no law. Arafat has cleverly pandered to the quiet racist that dwells inside every European and convinced the majority of these self-deluded bigots that the oppressed Arab is somehow exempt from all normal standards of human decency. He has convinced his own people of this as well. Who is guilty of "Orientalism"?

#100 zulubaby

I knew they'd call an emergency hen party!

...quick, get your violin.

I was kinda disappointed with Israel. Gasp!

Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.

I was looking for a dash of style, all right? The use of a little stealth; a "natural” looking death (i.e., poison, or something) in case of this event. Just the addition of a little mystery to his death; you know, the question of: ''did they or didn't they?”

I did hear that Yassin was actually 70 years old. Another interesting fact, I learned, he had his own brother murdered. He accused him of collaborating with Israel, partially buried him alive and then had him shot.

I certainly didn’t consider him spiritual. Just a sick mind, who persuaded young people to become mere cannon fodder, who wasted young lives, and for good measure added God to the equation. Just a slimly murderer of innocents on both sides. Just sick, sick, sick.

WriterMom, playing it as we speak.

52 neighborhood bully

As Bob Dylan said:
Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized,

Well, Dylan kicks off his European tour in June.
Do you think he'll be playing any of tunes from his "Infidel" album?

(#92)

Aren't you late for Sheikh Yassin's funeral?

I know, you're only lashing out because you're distraught that you just lost your 'spiritual leader.'

It's only natural.

I won't hold it against you.

Glad to see this piece of human excrement end up a stain on a Palestinian sidewalk. He really deserved a slow, painful death for the # of Jews (Israelis) and Arabs (Palestinian youths) that he killed over the years. Those IDF guys have just rid the world of another terrorist...one by one, one by one. An excellent precision strike. I guess he has figured out right about now down there why they call it the HELLfire!!!

True enough, the panty waste from Europe doesn't mourn him, it is just expedient and diplomatic to appear to. Actually no one really gives a crap about the Palestinians, unfortunately the Palestinians just haven't figured that out yet. I would imagine this is a real low point for them. I wonder if they have ever considered following a different path? You would think that after following their current leadership down the road to poverty and despair for the last 30 years that they'd try something or someone that would work. Hmmm. Those are some dumb muther$%#$ers.

#96 Charles

Actually, apart from the daytime television, T.H. characterizes my views pretty well. They do have crappy little steaks in Europe.

They also have a lot of crumbling shit over there that's supposedly historic or something, but nobody has time to look at it because you spend all your time trying to find a decent steak.

Has there been an official reaction from the U.S?

# 92 T.H of Suburbia. At least we know how to bathe and use deodorant.

The other problem the Zeropeans have is that they are going to have to scramble to find another Nobel Peace prize recipient.
I mean, here is a "moderate" leader (according to CNN and Co.), wheelchair-bound (I think I have heard this word about 1,000 times this morning), who was the head of a huge "social agency", you know, the famous "humanitarian wing" of Hamas and who singlehandedly (no pun intended, of course) created this peace-loving movement.
I am telling you...Nobel Peace Prize-bound!

111

Yes, and they support Israels right to defend herself.

US: Yassin was personally involved in terror

But Rice, asked about U.S. reaction to the attack during an interview on NBC television's "Today" show, did say, "Let's remember that Hamas is a terrorist organization and that Sheik Yassin has himself, personally, we believe, been involved in terrorist planning."

Thank G-d I don't live in Europe.

#30:

"The soul of Europe"? Europe has no soul.

How sad, and how true. I think that some on the Utopian/Socialist Left believe that they are building a society something like that on Star Trek: secular and diverse, moral, positive, optimistic, with everyone working together for the common good. Unfortunately, human nature is not like that, and the reality is that post-Christian Europe is amoral, cynical, resentful and self-centered, yet self-hating. They don't believe in God, but they don't believe in anything else, either, including their own self-worth. They can't be bothered to even produce their own descendants. They won't fight for their values or their cultures; in fact, they are consciously commiting collective cultural suicide by importing Muslim immigrants and surrendering their nations to the EU in the name of "unity". Instead of Star Trek, they are building The Matrix. As an atheist I hate to admit it, but Europe desperately needs a spiritual revival, or they will face a future of defeat, absorption and extinction.

Jack Straw from Great Britain say this when speaking of the missiliering of Sh. Yassim, "It is unacceptable, it is unjustified and it is very unlikely to achieve its objective,"

Huomo say, " objective achieved, scratch one shiek!"

by the way, Europe man is a weak man who is going out of style. He is child of the state and lives on handouts from father state and mother EU. He has lost his balls. Islamterrortman can smell fear on him.

I think that some on the Utopian/Socialist Left believe that they are building a society something like that on Star Trek: secular and diverse, moral, positive, optimistic, with everyone working together for the common good.

That sounds about right. However, what makes it unique is the fact that it is built not on the backs of the peasants, proletarians or persecuted but rather on the backs of the wealthy, barons, oligarchs that want to maintain their status. In other words, they'll go socialist to keep their beyond bourgiese status rather than to defeat it.

Engelitarians are well ahead in Europe and admitting that the Deathcult™ opposes them and requires confrontation would defeat the last 100 years of "progress".

Excellent from my pretend boyfriend The Dissident Frogman.

Just some quotes regarding what Yassin was:

-- A Hamas leader said Friday his group is planning to kidnap Israelis to exchange them for Palestinians imprisoned in Israeli jails.



Ahmed Yassin confirmed to reporters after weekly prayers that the Palestinian suicide bomber who carried out Thursday's deadly bus bombing in Jerusalem was a member of Hamas.



Another terrorist group, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, had claimed responsibility for attack.



"Hamas doesn't claim responsibility for the attacks carried out by other militant groups," Yassin said. "Tomorrow, there will be a videotape showing the man ...

---YASSIN: HAMAS PLANS TO KIDNAP ISRAELIS, United Press International; 1/30/2004

---

Sixteen people were killed and more than 100 wounded when a Hamas suicide bomber, dressed as a haredi Jew, blew himself up on a bus in downtown Jerusalem on Wednesday. Many of those wounded were passersby outside the nearby Clal Building shopping center on Jaffa Road...



...Among those killed were Hamas terrorists Tito Massoud, 35, and Sohil Abu Nahel, 29. According to the IDF Spokesman, Massoud was a protege of Ibrahim Makadmeh (who was killed in an IAF missile attack in February) and was involved in the production and firing of Kassam rockets.



A bodyguard of Hamas spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and agent of top bombmaker Muhammad Deif, Abu Nahel was involved in a series of attacks on Israeli buses in 1996.

---Suicide bomber kills 16 in Jerusalem. Hamas terrorist disguised as haredi. Jerusalem Post; 6/12/2003; ERIK SCHECHTER

---

The founder and religious leader of the Hamas terrorist organization, Sheik Achmed Yassin, announced that according to teachings in the Koran, Israel will be destroyed by 2026. "According to my calculation, there are only 27 years left until Israel's destruction," stated Yassin in an Arabic publication published in London.

--Yassin: Israel Will be Destroyed by 2026. Israel Faxx; 1/22/1999

---

The heightened concern was sparked by the bellicose declarations of Sheik Ahmed Yassin, Hamas' spiritual leader, who last month denounced the Bush Administration's threats to disarm Iraq by force as "a new crusade against the Muslim nation." Yassin's call for Muslims worldwide to "strike Western interests ... everywhere" marked a sharp departure from his movement's long-held belief that attacks on Americans would undercut Palestinian hopes of keeping U.S. pressure on Israel.

--New Targets for Hamas? Time; 3/24/2003; Burger, Timothy J. Byline: Elaine Shannon and Timothy J. Burger

---

The Aug. 6 editorial "Bloody Days" asserted that Israel's assassination

of Salah Shehada, one of the most dangerous Hamas terrorist leaders, was

a mistake because "Hamas always conducts revenge bombings," and that the result was a "foreseeable" string of attacks against Israelis.

It is a myth that Hamas acts out of revenge. This month Hamas leader Sheik Ahmed Yassin told the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera, "These are not acts of retribution. We do not struggle out of revenge but rather to liberate our land" -- the land in question being the state of Israel itself.



Mr. Yassin reiterated that "the Jews have no right to the land of Palestine" and predicted that Israel "will die in violence." Hamas's goal is the annihilation of the Jewish state.



The Post speaks of Israeli "self-delusion" in its policy of "military

confrontation" against Palestinian terrorism, but the real self-delusion

is to imply, as the editorial does, that if only Israel had not killed

Salah Shehada, Hamas and the other jihadist groups would not be engaged in terrorism against Israel.

--- No Delusions About Hamas, The Washington Post; 8/21/2002



That's just some of them. And I love this in the face of this:

European Union foreign ministers said Saturday that the bloc will declare all wings of the militant Palestinian group Hamas a terrorist organization, following dozens of deadly attacks in Israel.



The EU had previously blacklisted only the group's military arm, Hamas Izzedine al-Qassamin. But it agreed Saturday to add political offshoots including fund-raising charities and social welfare groups to its blacklist after the Aug. 19 Jerusalem bus bombing that killed more than 20 people.



Officials at the EU head office will meet Monday to discuss details of the blacklisting, including a freezing of Hamas assets. A formal decision was expected in coming weeks.



EU foreign ministers, ending a two-day meeting on Lake Garda in the Italian Alps, reacted with dismay Saturday to the decision by Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas to submit his resignation. Abbas offered his resignation Saturday following a long power struggle with Palestinian President Yasser Arafat.

So what is the problem? They almost all agreed that Hamas are terrorist organization, that you can't mince and separate the different wings, and yet their leader gets popped and all of the hoopla?

Am starting at the bottom of this thread before I read all your comments so forgive any redundancy but . . .

1. Check out belmontclub.blogspot.com for a great analysis. "Wretchard," whoever he is, is one of my favorite analysts.

2. Since the Madrid election, I have a new, and much more frightening view of Europe. Friends, I am afraid we are in for some extremely harsh times ahead.

3. We all need to learn the Danegeld song by Rudyard Kipling. It's more than appropriate.

4. Who among us would have predicted that the beginning of the 21st century would bring forth not only the rise of a new barbarism, but also a fresh look at the virtues of the old British imperialism and its poets.

5. As nonidiotarians from around the world--we MUST fight this immoral mindset that has taken hold of Europe. They must somehow be brought to understand that terrorism will destroy them too.

Ellen:

You spoke of wanting to see the art and culture
in Europe. Well, as I am sure you would agree Europe is defeated.

The USA is the last respository of Western ideals. We are
somewhat like the nationalist Chinese
that fled the mainland and took with them the treasures
of China - TO PRESERVE THEM FROM THE BARBARIANS.

Frankly, the USA should strip Europe of whatever objects it wants.
These items must be preserved so they will
not be destroyed by the Barbarians.

oh, fuck Fwance

New Book Implicates France in Rwandan Genocide

96

Heh.
Bigoted? Moi?
Talk about fixed viewpoints in here! Let's see, we have, among others:

10

Fuck the Euroweasels

52

Only people left in Europe are the sons of cowards and the sons of criminals.

54

and they'd probably kill me if they found out I was a yank who doesn't hate jews.

Oh and btw, thx for not waiting 24 hours before pissing on the graves of 200 - I guess former - allies who dared to use the public transport system and voted left-of-center, those commie-bastards!

Glad you still got the bulgarian sparkling wine to toast the coalitions successes! (or do you still drink chianti?)

Personally, I wasn't surprised at all by the assassination of the sheik. The Israeli government has a limited window of opportunity to undertake the necessary house-cleaning operations in Gaza before the US-election swings into full gear. Expect more of the same in the coming weeks...

#21 Ellen . . .

I wanted to go overseas once and see all the art and culture in Spain, Germany, England and (cough) France.

With the art of 4-color printing at such a high state these days and with the existence of bookstores like Barnes & Noble and Borders, one can really see the world without doing a lot of travel. I know this may sound like a sorry substitute, but Europe has changed a lot anyway, and the art treasures are well displayed in books.

Of course, you can't really duplicate scenery, but North America has lots of nice scenery too.

#122 Promethea

We all need to learn the Danegeld song by Rudyard Kipling. It's more than appropriate

If I'm not mistaken, that's the one that contains the lines:

"It is always a temptation to a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say:-
‘Though we know we should defeat you,
we have not the time to meet you
We will therefore pay you cash to go away.’

And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we have proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane "

lmg (#116):

As an atheist I hate to admit it, but Europe desperately needs a spiritual revival, or they will face a future of defeat, absorption and extinction.

While I agree with everything else you wrote, I have to point out the following:

It is a common misconception -- actively promoted both by theolaters and many atheists themselves -- that atheism/secularism and spirituality are mutually exclusive. They are not.

True, the crutches of organized theolatry are gone for a secular spiritual seeker. But so are its shackles.

#121 ethics

So what is the problem? They almost all agreed that Hamas are terrorist organization, that you can't mince and separate the different wings, and yet their leader gets popped and all of the hoopla?

Europe does not think terrorists should be killed, especially the ones who kill Jews.

#81 ethics

Hi, ethics. Yes, good to see you!

#70 Smit . . .

Please take for granted that the rants on LGF are always against the idiotarians--not the people who understand the problems.

It's hard to remember all the time that the LGF audience is worldwide. But don't let your feelings get hurt. Just remember--many of our friends and families are idiotarians too.

Just think of this place as a noisy bar.

There is indeed something deeply deeply wrong in the soul of Europe. Eurpoe has lost its cultural identity. The tragic rise of secularism, the academic fad of Multi-Culturalism, the liberal disease of moral equivlance. All these have combined to sap the very marrow from the proud legacy of Christian and Western Civilisation which should rightfully belong to Europe.

Post-Christian Europe has sold out. It is now under attack by militant Islam and it has no core beliefs to fall back on.

The verile, confident Christianity upon which Europe was built is now utterly compromised, corrupted and feeble. It is unable to rally the people to the real danger which threatens and afflicts it, which is the prison-gang, death-cult, Arab-chauvinist, false pseudo-religious "islam."

Europe has traded the Armor of the Crusaders for the empty politicking of the U.N. It has traded it's former military prowess for cowering under the U.S. Umbrella, and making nicey-nice with those who want to destroy them. They have traded the Battle Cry of "Santiago y España" "Christ and Jeruslaem" "In Hoc Signo Vinces" for "can't we all just get along"

Repent and come back to Jesus Europe. It is the only thing that will save you. (Well, that and the U.S. Military)

#122 Promethea

As nonidiotarians from around the world--we MUST fight this immoral mindset that has taken hold of Europe. They must somehow be brought to understand that terrorism will destroy them too.

Good luck!

#30 QuiteFrank:

Pray to G_d that those who yet believe, both here in the land of the free and over there will have enough strength in their conviction to carry on in the face of firestorm of the coming Islamic hell.

There are still some of us non-dhimmis left in Europe. But I must admit a few of us are looking to the west, and wondering whether we should follow in the footsteps of so many Euros before...

#125

Oh and btw, thx for not waiting 24 hours before pissing on the graves of 200 - I guess former - allies who dared to use the public transport system and voted left-of-center, those commie-bastards!

Actually, it was the Spanish themselves who disrespected their murdered citizens by deciding that appeasement and moral surrender was the better course of action when confronted with force and terror.

After all, it worked so well 1936-1939.

As for the socialism - leftists in Europe - well, the economies of France and Germany are so unbelievably robust - particularly with the 10+% unemployment and governments that amount to 35-50%+ of GDP. More proof I suppose that socialism really does work for the betterment of all - in power.

Wonder what would happen to Germany's auto industry if people in American stopped buying BMW, Audi, VW, and Mercedes?

#132 Martel-Sobieski

There is indeed something deeply deeply wrong in the soul of Europe. Eurpoe has lost its cultural identity.

Another way of saying this is that much of Europe is morally bankrupt.

It's turning into 1984 - one big Ministry of Truth repeating again and again - "Ignorance is Strength" and "Freedom is Slavery".

Too many people of Old Europe are what they once accused American's of being - self centered, self focused, and unwilling to learn or think outside the box that their governments provide them.

The statement by Straw was a disgrace to Britain - sadly our friends across the sea seem to have also joined the appeasement chorus

21:45 White House spokesman Scott McClellan: We are deeply troubled by this morning`s actions in Gaza

#85 monsterdog

#65 Mie

. Probably 1/2-3/4 of the regular LGFers used to be liberals at one time, but I bet not one of them was "converted" by anything other than their own observations of events and reasoning things through for themselves.

Very very true. I've studied the history of Jews and Israel for years, and find it very difficult to follow the ins and outs of the conflict.

Actually, that's true of any historical period. This particular history, however, is bound up with current events, so it's worth the time to wend your way through it.

Re your quote above, monsterdog: I have to agree--at least from my own point of view. I was LLL until 9-11 and 1/2. I disliked Ariel Sharon and "the settlers" until Sept. 2000 when the second Intifada began, and I realized, after reading more, that the Palestinians were NOT interested in peace.

Well, now I'm for the "settlers" and for Bush. I find it hard to understand why the LLL aren't--but they just haven't gone through the reading, learning, and reasoning process.

Am Yisroel Chai (which means "The people of Israel shall live.")

Every single person I spoke with from Europe today (three from the Netherlands, one from the UK and one from Germany) mentioned the wheelchair.

They can't get beyond that, as if somehow his deeds are less important than his physical disabilities instead of more.

Jack Straw's comments make me ashamed to be British - however, they don't necessarily reflect the views of most people in the UK. (If Kerry gets in next time, no LGFers will think he speaks for all the US.) I for one (and most people I've talked to) think the murdering bastard was absolutely fair game.

All this 'elderly wheelchair-bound cleric' crap makes me sick. How much did he care about the eldery or disabled victims of his suicide bombers.

As for 'spiritual leader' - makes him sound like the Dalai Lama. He can rot in hell.

Hope they get lots of the Hamas bastards before they pull out - leave them running around like headless chickens.

#132 Martel-Sobieski

There is indeed something deeply deeply wrong in the soul of Europe.

There always has been. One has only to read the novels of Dickens, Balzac and Stendhal, the plays of Shakespeare and Moliere, the poetry of Hugo, Rimbaud and Baudelaire to understand that - add the writings of Thomas Mann, Robert Musil and Franz Kafka, and you have a perfect all-round condemnation of Europe and everything that it stands for. The idea that Europe is some repository of "civilization" is a thoroughly naive one. Europe showed its true colours in 1939, when it reverted to the Dark Ages. The rot set in long before the present time.

136

Get your facts straight, Athos!

France has a "leftist government" all of a sudden?? Chirac, the quintessential bourgeois, is a commie in disguise? Jeez!

I wanted to go overseas once and see all the art and culture in Spain, Germany, England and (cough) France.
But I don't anymore.

There is always Epcot center or Las Vegas.

The paris casino and the Venician are almost like really going there except the streets of Paris casino don't smell like piss and nothing awful is floating in the vencian water.

There always has been. One has only to read the novels of Dickens, Balzac and Stendhal, the plays of Shakespeare and Moliere, the poetry of Hugo, Rimbaud and Baudelaire to understand that - add the writings of Thomas Mann, Robert Musil and Franz Kafka, and you have a perfect all-round condemnation of Europe and everything that it stands for. The idea that Europe is some repository of "civilization" is a thoroughly naive one. Europe showed its true colours in 1939, when it reverted to the Dark Ages. The rot set in long before the present time.

Awesome statement there, for the rest of us literature fanatics. :)

Wretchard explains it all:

Fully knowing that it cannot strike with much effect at the IDF, Hamas may now be tempted to hit at Europe and through them to pressure Israel. Why not? It worked in Madrid and from now one anyone may be tempted to ring Europe's bell for whatever reason. But worse yet for Europe, the descent of the war on terror into a death match, as exemplified by the struggle between Israel and the Palestinian terrorist groups means that there will be but one victor and one loser at the end of the day. With each passing moment the odds lengthen that the EU or the UN can broker a negotiated settlement between Israel, India, Russia and USA on the one hand, and the Jihadis on the other. [...] A zero-sum conflict guarantees that Europe will not be on the winning side.

#141 Haldor

Point well taken, however you toss the entire baby with the bathwater. Debate, conflict and the clash of ideas, the rigor of scientific inquiry. These are essential to liberty and progress.

Dickens, Stendhal, Moliere, Hugo, Mann and Kafka do not cancel out Mozart, Beethoven, Michaelangelo, Augustine, Shakespeare, Dante, Rembrandt, Newton, Einstein, Adam Smith, Goethe, etc. etc. etc.

Western Civilization embraces both sides of the debate. This is what is new and revolutionary and is the glory of the West.

That the Euros have squandered it may be valid, but it is a shame nevertheless.

Don't cry for Argentina, cry for Europe.

141

One has only to read the novels of Shakespeare and Moliere to understand that you have a perfect all-round condemnation of Europe and everything that it stands for.

Shakes and Moliere, 16th and 17th century authors, to prove a point about the moral downfall of Europe? Wtf were you smoking? Read again.

#141 Halldor . . .

Wow, Halldor, you are gloomy today. You're British aren't you? We still love European civilization, even though we're mad at it today. ;)

Yes, that was the Danegeld song I was thinking of. Thanks.

OT - One of the main nations that is directing Europe's movement to appeasement and opposition of most things American - France - is being addressed in a Q&A session on National Review between one of the NRO editors and Kenneth Timmerman whose book "The French Betrayal of America" was released last week.

The French / Saddam Connection -

NRO: It seems "cool" these days for right-of-center Americans to French-bash: Hasn't it gone a little too far? Aren't you just adding to the lifespan of "freedom fries" with a book about a "betrayal?"

Timmerman: It's a serious matter when the leaders of a country such as France show by their actions that they are willing to jettison a friendship with America that goes back 225 years in favor of a dictator such as Saddam Hussein, whose claim to fame includes the massacre of some 300,000 of his own people. And yet, that is precisely what French president Jacques Chirac and his foreign minister Dominique de Villepin have done. They have shown that they were willing to exchange exclusive oil deals with Saddam, and political payoffs, for the French alliance with America.

NRO: Is there any negotiating with France — getting her to see our view of the world? That certainly didn't happen pre-Iraq liberation, but could it come post — or do things just get worse, as France continues to help Iran (and who else?) in ways they once helped Iraq?

Timmerman: When I was in Libya recently, I had the opportunity to meet with the chairman of the foreign-relations committee of the French senate, André Dulait. Dulait complained that the U.S. government was still punishing France for its behavior during the Iraq war, and that it was time to "let bygones be bygones." I recounted the story to him of President Chirac's personal lies to President Bush, and the manner in which foreign minister Dominique de Villepin ambushed Colin Powell at the United Nations on Jan. 20, 2003 — events which were not just political, but personal betrayals. I suggested that perhaps if the French wanted better relations with the United States they might start by putting a new face on their diplomacy.

I see no reason why any U.S. administration should take Mr. De Villepin seriously or take his word on anything, given his track record of deceit and open lies.

So when 2 French government officials condemn a nation defending itself from terrorists by killing the leader of a major terror organization - remember the sources.

And I certainly don’t recall anything close to a similar level of outrage and condemnation the last time Hamas blew up a bus full of Israeli schoolchildren, or bombed an ice cream parlor full of kids and their parents, or committed mass murder at a Passover dinner.

This is exactly what happened after the IDF kicked off defensive shield in 2002. Crickets chirped as bomb after bomb slaughtered innocents. Then the tanks rolled and mealy mouthed Kofi and weaselly Eurabia talked about the need for Israel to exercise restraint.

Nauseating, and nothing has changed. That, plus the dancing paleostines on 9-11 cemented the issue for me once and for all about the "two sided cycle of violence" meme about this war, and tied it to the war against Islamofascist terror.

140 Martel-Sobieski

Dickens, Stendhal, Moliere, Hugo, Mann and Kafka do not cancel out Mozart, Beethoven, Michaelangelo, Augustine, Shakespeare, Dante, Rembrandt, Newton, Einstein, Adam Smith, Goethe, etc. etc. etc.

It's worth noting, for example, that the last movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony contains an Arabic Sufi melody, Goethe wrote an entire cycle of poems, styled as translations of Islamic Persian poetry, called "West-östlicher Divan", Mozart's "Seraglio" is an Islam-inspired fantasy, etc., etc. The examples are too numerous to list. The Muslim invasion of Europe and the Battle of Vienna on September 12, 1683 has a lot to answer for, and produced a "terror effect" in European culture from which it never recovered.

T.H. in Suburbia demonstrates the effortless faux-sophistication of the European Kakistocracy:

Personally, I wasn't surprised at all by the assassination of the sheik. The Israeli government has a limited window of opportunity to undertake the necessary house-cleaning operations in Gaza before the US-election swings into full gear.

Gaza is not part of Israel's "house". They are under no obligation to clean it, as they are not the ones who messed it up.

But leave us not pick nits, here ... hauling out my dog-eared copy of Derrida for Dummies, I think have deconstructed your statement to mean that Israel has to kill terrorists now, because if they kill them in November they might hurt the re-election chances of George Bush, who is the Warlord of their US-Imperialist masters.

Well, whatever you want to believe. At least you have the honesty to admit that it was necessary.

#147 T.H. of Suburbia

Total misquotation of my post. Apologize, please.

#139 Alex

Every single person I spoke with from Europe today (three from the Netherlands, one from the UK and one from Germany) mentioned the wheelchair.

Yeah, yeah, they keep showing it on TV. A cunning trick, the good old wheelchairs!
It is intended to move the viewers and lead them to think that Yassin was in fact a poor wretched SOB who was not capable of any harm...unlike those bloodthirsty Jooos!

Repeat it for years and you end up with Eurabi.. err...Europeans.

OT, but that will cheer us up. I spoke to a Spanish nurse tonight. She said to me that she wanted to oust Aznar BEFORE the bombings in Madrid. She voted for him after 3/11. There are still people that are spared the effects of European propaganda.

#142 TH Wanker

France has a "leftist government" all of a sudden?? Chirac, the quintessential bourgeois, is a commie in disguise? Jeez!

Where in the post did I accuse the French government of being "leftist" all of a sudden? I didn't even reference the French government, putz.

Guess what, yes, the French government is leftist - socialistic - straight out of the definition of socialism - better government via bigger government. I mean, limiting workers to a max of 35 hrs a week and having 28% of the work force employed by the government are hardly examples of capitalism and free markets.

It's also corrupt - starting with M. Chirac. He was a corrupt wanker when Mayor of Paris, he was a corrupt wanker when he toadied to Saddam in 1975 and led the effort to sell the nuclear plant to Saddam that was bombed in 1981 before it come on line and produce bomb grade plutonium.

M. Chirac and M. deVillepin also sold out the west in order to protect $100B USD in oil deals from Saddam, billions in arms and defense deals with Saddam, and pocketed funds grafted from the Oil for Food program farce.

Funny how when someone calls a crook a crook - your response is to accuse them of saying things they never said. Typical.

Try reading first then thinking -- it keeps you from getting athlete's foot on your tongue.

#153 halldor

I doubt either of us should be holding our breath for that wanker to correct his misquotes...or apologize.

To DennisW (66),
I happen to be Catholic and I think Rome is congenitally and incorrigibly corrupt. When it comes to appeasing Arabs, the Curia equates with the Vichy-ites who appeased Hitler (remember the reception Tariq Aziz received last year?). This is part of a calculated geo-political and ecumenical policy to foster good relations with other religions that could serve as bulwarks against "secular materialism" (i.e, the contemporary West and the U.S.). The Pope's own people say that he had steadfastly refused to criticize persecution against Christians in Arab countries.

Besides, these wankers have the audacity to lecture anybody about good and evil when they fail to confront forthrightly the pervasive sex-abuse crisis, the greatest threat to the Church's moral credibility in centuries?

Catholics should ignore Rome on all geo-political questions because Rome is hopelessly compromised.

#148 Promethea.

We still love European civilization,

Unfortunately, and contrary to what many Americans believe, there's no such thing. Did you ever read George Steiner? Recommend his books on this subject, in particular After Babel and The Death of Tragedy.

More European reactions to the execution of Sheikh Yassin.

NETHERLANDS: We are pleased by those states who join us in recognising the wisdom of euthanasia.

SWEDEN: Another brave freedom fighter martyred by intolerant racist terrorists.

THE NOBEL PRIZE COMMITTEE: I suppose we shall have to find another winner for this year.

THE SANE PART OF EUROPE: We wish he could have suffered more before passing on.

152

Gaza is not part of Israel's "house". They are under no obligation to clean it, as they are not the ones who messed it up.

Maybe not the "house", but certainly the walled-off servants' basement, which calls for a thorough scrubbing every once in a while, as suggested by my well-worn copy of the ever popular "Strauss for Suckers".

T.H. of Suburbia, why so sour? The world is rid of an evil mass-murderer, you should be happy!

#85 Monsterdog

Yes, you are quite right. Hell, I even read books about Dialectical Materialism, Historical Materialism, and other such nonsense ... but I feel much better now.

hallador

It's worth noting, for example, that the last movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony contains an Arabic Sufi melody, Goethe wrote an entire cycle of poems, styled as translations of Islamic Persian poetry, called "West-östlicher Divan", Mozart's "Seraglio" is an Islam-inspired fantasy, etc., etc.

The structure of classical music has nothing to do with the Middle East or Islam. Beethoven or Mozart could use an Eastern melody here and there, as "stuff" they worked into a larger composition or adopted for other purposes. They found many things inspirational. So what! Doesn't mean that Western civilization is somehow under the spell of Islam.
Same is true for Goethe; he collected all sorts of folk poetry.

155

.

Where in the post did I accuse the French government of being "leftist" all of a sudden? I didn't even reference the French government, putz.

Athos, read ur own posts, kiddo!

As for the socialism - leftists in Europe - well, the economies of France and Germany are so unbelievably robust - particularly with the 10+% unemployment and governments that amount to 35-50%+ of GDP. More proof I suppose that socialism really does work for the betterment of all - in power.

double-duh.

#160

my well-worn copy of the ever popular "Strauss for Suckers".

I'm sure it has pride of place beside your well-worn copy of "Protocols of the Elders of Zion for Suckers".

#163 veebee

The structure of classical music has nothing to do with the Middle East or Islam. Beethoven or Mozart could use an Eastern melody here and there, as "stuff" they worked into a larger composition or adopted for other purposes. They found many things inspirational. So what! Doesn't mean that Western civilization is somehow under the spell of Islam.

Those are fair points, but my intention was to remind us all that what happened during the Muslim invasion of Europe, and on September 12, 1683, left a profound mark on European culture - this is not always recognized by those who think that European culture is somehow free of Islamic influences. Islam was very important to its development. As for "European civilization" - that is an illusion.

T.H. of Suburbia, on the shabby Dickensian nature of the Gaza Strip:

Maybe not the "house", but certainly the walled-off servants' basement ...

So the Palestinians are servants. Whose servants are they, exactly?

Since the Palestinian "State" is a beggar nation that subsists on foreign charity, with most worker's wages being paid by the UN, the EU, and various foreign nations, I should think they work for you. In fact, I think they're a European colony.

(#161) zulubaby

Why are must you insist on mocking the poor child? Today of all days?

He just lost his 'spiritual leader.' Allow him some time to mourn.

#164 TH

Courtesy is that when you use a quote - you reference the number from that quote.

But then, I still don't see your proof that France and Germany don't have socialistic governments?

Sorry Charles for taking up the bandwidth with this piece of history but it is very sobering and quite relevant as we appear to be heading down this road. Friedrich List first published the following in his 1841 work entitled ‘The National System of Political Economy.’

“The same causes which have raised Great Britain to the present exalted position, will (probably in the course of the next century) raise the United States of America to a degree of industry, wealth, and power, which will surpass the position in which England stands, as far as at present England excels little Holland. In the natural course of things the United States will increase their population within that period to hindered of millions of souls; they will diffuse their population, their institutions, their civilization, and their spirit over the whole of Central and South America, just as they have recently diffused them over the neighboring Mexican province. The Federal Union will comprise all these immense territories, a population of several hundred millions of people will develop the resources of a continent which infinitely exceeds the continent of Europe in extent and in natural wealth. The naval power of the western world will surpass that of Great Britain, as greatly as its coasts and rivers exceed those of Britain in extent and magnitude.

Thus in not a very distant future the natural necessity which now imposes the French and Germans the necessity of establishing a Continental alliance against the British supremacy, will impose on the British the necessity of establishing a European coalition against the supremacy of America. Then will Great Britain be compelled to seek and to find in the leadership of the united powers of Europe protection, security, and compensation against the predominance of American, and an equivalent for her lost supremacy.”

List was later revered by pan-German expansionists of the early 1900’s; following that, anointed patron saint of the National Socialists.
The Fourth Reich? It appears to be becoming more than a passing possibility.

halldor
Check out Ilya Repin. A very bad reproduction with background notes can be found here.

(#168) Me

rather:

Why are must you insist on mocking the poor child?

Preview is my (and everyone's) friend.

SoCalJustice (#168)

I didn't mean to be insensitive and I apologize. I wonder if he's going to be vegetarian this week as part of his mourning process.

halldor
I'm not sure that Islam is "very" important to European culture... It was certainly more influential in Spain then anywhere else, for obvious reasons.

The reaction of the perfidious european gutless 'leaders' (haha - they couldn't lead a bunch of rats to a dead carcass) reveals that they simply don't care about dead Jews. They didn't care before Shoah. They didn't care during Shoah. They didn't care in 1948, 1967 or 1973. They don't care now. They won't care tomorrow or the day after.

And if their moral pposition is so degraded that they are saying to us Jews that we should allow our kids to be slaughtered for the wider good of europeans, then f**k them.

Israel and the Jewish People should ignore the views of these latter day appeasers and antisemites. Their moral compass is stuck on protection of terrorists and they will end up like the last lot of appeasers - desperately fighting the tyrant when it turns on them. By then it may be too late for them to save themselves or their people.

#157 Hippolito,

Amen

#171 veebee

:-)

Unfortunately, though, Russia is not Europe. Russian poets like Alexander Blok even saw the 1917 revolution as an enactment of ancient Slavic dreams of the "Scythian" conquest of Europe. And even though the Turks lost on 9/12, the fear that they brought to Europe and Western culture remained. That's why 9/11 was such a brutal wake-up call.

#174 veebee

I'm not sure that Islam is "very" important to European culture

Certainly Islamic Sufism was important to European culture - for example, the composers Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Wagner were all Freemasons whose lodges derived many of their rituals from Sufism. Sufi and Islamic ideas figure prominently in Goethe's writings, and the poetry of Rumi was extremely influential, even in England, where it had an effect on Coleridge and other romantic poets. Or think of Fitzgerald's "The Rubaiyat Of Omar Khayyam"...

#160 T.H.Suburbia . . .

You are too funny. Is The Netherlands "the walled-off servants' basement" of Germany? Is Singapore "the walled-off servants" basement of Malaysia?

What's to stop the Palestinians from building a very nice small country, except corruption, idiocy, criminality, and whinyness?

#166:

Islam was very important to its development. As for "European civilization" - that is an illusion.

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. You are repeating the notion that islamists have, that "Islam" gave birth to modern European and Western civilization (yes, it is a civilization). Islam produced very little, if anything new. The Arabs just took the credit for what centuries of pre-Islamic Middle Eastern civilizations had produced, rode their momentum for a while before it strangled them.

Well, this european thinks: Yassin was dedicated to destroying the State of Israel so the State of Israel destroyed him first.

Remember to vote at The Wall Street Journal as said above! It is a close call.

#180 Norwegian kafir

You are repeating the notion that islamists have, that "Islam" gave birth to modern European and Western civilization

Not at all - I am saying that Islam influenced Western culture in ways that are not often recognized, which is not the same thing at all. If you'll read my posts, you will see that this is so.

Islam produced very little, if anything new.

I totally agree. None the less, for historical reasons connected with the Muslim incursions into Europe, some of those old and not all novel ideas took hold in odd and sometimes unexpected ways. The effect was more psychological than anything else, and contributed to the deep sense of unease and insecurity that underlies European culture from the 18th century onwards.

My responses to all the assholes of the world governments.

Why do you insist that Middle Eastern motiffs in Western European cultures C18-19 were an expression of fear?

167

Well, after the target-practice by the IDF in Gaza, I'm almost confident that the fresh crop of suicide-bombers, who will most certainly be recruited by the boxload in the very near future, won't blow themselves up in my neighbourhood.

Easy to act smug and talk tough if you're sitting in some remote flyover backwater across the atlantic. But in Israel it'll be nothing but takeout-dinners and taxi-rides this spring - wall or no wall, the escalation has just been kicked up another notch.

That was in responce to Halldor.

the fresh crop of suicide-bombers, who will most certainly be recruited by the boxload in the very near future

As if Hamas HR was having trouble up to today. LOL!

T.H. of Suburbia, yeah totally different from what they've been doing for years.

Oh and btw, thx for not waiting 24 hours before pissing on the graves of 200 - I guess former - allies who dared to use the public transport system

Stings, doesn't it, TH? Maybe Europe will finally get how America felt on 9/11 when steaming shit was heaped on its dead by the dolts over here. Though I doubt it.

and voted left-of-center, those commie-bastards!

As in, the case for saying Europe is getting it isn't, erm, very promising so far.

#184 veebee

Why do you insist that Middle Eastern motiffs in Western European cultures C18-19 were an expression of fear?

It's too long to go into in a forum post, but basically I think that by the 18th century, West European culture was beginning to lose confidence in its own identity and power. The events of the French Revolution, followed by the Napoleonic wars, reinforced that insecurity. Islam - which had been glimpsed during the Crusades and then much more recently, at Vienna - seemed to offer at once a hope of spiritual enlightenment from the East (for example, in the dramas of Gotthold Ephraim Lessing) - and a frightening alternative to Christianity, epitomized in phenomena like the Baphomet myth (Eliphas Levi) and the rise of occultism in Europe. The fear was more existential than actual - and its relation to the Middle East as such was mostly forgotten. It was just another of the factors that contributed to the growing malaise and nihilism in European intellectual and cultural life, which culminated in the late 19th century in the philosophy of Nietzsche and the poetry of decadents like Verlaine and Rimbaud. That malaise was also the soil in which the precursors of the Nazi ideology began to grow.

If you're interested in the subject of the nihilism underlying Europe's so-called "civilization", I'd recommend the work of the British critic George Steiner, who has among other things written about the significance of the Holocaust in relation to European culture.

un fucking believable...the spin this morning on BBC and NPR

"spiritual leader and founder of hamas"

makes him sound like mother fucking teresa and jesus christ all rolled into one delicious hamburger.

i almost drove of the mass pike.

thank god for charles and his site to give us some perspective on this killer.

good riddance to disqusting rubbish.

jew hatred, the home game. played everywhere you look.

189

Maybe Europe will finally get how America felt on 9/11 when steaming shit was heaped on its dead by the dolts over here.

That's utter bull, and u know it. Hell, even leftwing "Le Monde" wrote "We're all Americans" on 9/12. The US got showered with supersized packs of solidarity - more than a government would be able to digest in a decade. But Bush Junior preferred to piss it all away with his fixation on some pseudo-dynastic scores he needed to settle further east. If the Bush-people had been sitting in Madrid during 3/11, the Spaniards would be digging for Moroccan weapons of mass distruction and preparing for a Rommel-style blitz into northern Africa right about now.

halldor
Sorry, I just don't see it this way. There is more then one current in Western tradition, and while, yes, there is that nihilistic decadent moment, there is much more to European culture. For instance, neo-classicism from French revolution on is rooted in European history, full of optimism and life-affirming.

What seems strange about your argument is that you almost presuppose some sort of a steady European culture that didn't change C18-19. And yet this was the time of enormous growth and change -- economically, culturally, politically. Revolutions, Napoleonic war, the theory of evolution, the Enlightenment, colonial expansion, improvements in sanitation, the novel -- I'm sure you can think of more stuff, all of it was new, all of it audacious. All of it "European". How exactly do you come up with the very idea of progress without being self-assured?

TH of Suburbia
Actually we lost their support much earlier, when we decided that we won't give in to terror. Was it de Velpine (sp?) who laughed at the "primitive" Americans chasing UBL in Afghan mountains?

Oh yeah, Le Monde has been such a good friend of America. Yeah, right. That line is worthless, and you know it.

Come off it. The moment it became clear America was going to do something after being attacked (i.e. evening of 9/11), it was much of Europe that pissed away its faux solidarity, its common sense, and, maybe, its future.

Pseudo-dynastic scores - LOL! Yeah, that's what is was all about. OK. Uh huh.

#193 veebee

there is much more to European culture. For instance, neo-classicism from French revolution on is rooted in European history, full of optimism and life-affirming.

I don't know what you mean by neo-classicism. The French Revolution put paid to most forms of classicism, and the styles that followed the revolution are generally referred to as "romantic" (Beethoven, Delacroix, and so on). There was neo-classicism in the 20th century (e.g. Stravinsky, Poulenc in music), but I wouldn't call it particularly life-affirming or optimistic.

What seems strange about your argument is that you almost presuppose some sort of a steady European culture that didn't change C18-19. And yet this was the time of enormous growth and change -- economically, culturally, politically. Revolutions, Napoleonic war, the theory of evolution, the Enlightenment, colonial expansion, improvements in sanitation, the novel -- I'm sure you can think of more stuff, all of it was new, all of it audacious. All of it "European". How exactly do you come up with the very idea of progress without being self-assured?

Certainly there was change, violent and radical change - I've already mentioned the French Revolution of 1789, but there were also the revolutions of 1848 and 1870, and these events had a cataclysmic effect on European intellectual life and culture. The idea of progress was one of the notions that emerged from those revolutions - unfortunately, the ideas of social progress were combined with political ideas that were really nihilistic, as they reflected and demanded an almost total contempt for human life. Their aims and aspirations culminated in the nihilistic Russian October Revolution of 1917, which was supposed to spread to all of Europe, but mercifully failed to. Even so, the damage to Europe had already been done, and the rise of the Nazis in Germany was almost a foregone conclusion. The self-assurance of those who promoted the empires of Britain and France was built on an illusion of power and domination, and those empires soon began to decline.

Just my 2 cents.

#192 TH

But Bush Junior preferred to piss it all away with his fixation on some pseudo-dynastic scores he needed to settle further east.

Yes, in the days after 9/11 - Chirac promised over 2K troops to assist US efforts in Afghanistan, then also promised an additional 1K special forces - with the provision that France (which is not part of the NATO military forces courtsey of DeGaulle in the early 1960's) has a significant role in the planning effort in Afghanistan.

This planning role was not provided - given the restrictions and quantifiers on the use of French troops, and French / NATO troops did not take signifiant positions in Afghanistan until after the major conflicts had been completed, and the peacekeeping / rebuilding effort had been made. Furthermore, strong opposition to Chirac's committment to the US was mounted by the far left in France - this also contributed to significantly less support to the US than what France promised in the days after 9/11.

This could be the start- but the real issues you are trying to raise is the fact that relations between France and the US didn't become really strained until the US decided to enforce the UNSC resolutions and attention on the threat of Saddam and Iraq.

The French lies going into the UNSC discussions over Iraq were hardly the result of the US expanding the WoT to a nation that France didn't believe was a terrorist supporting nation. It was 100% because of France's economic and trade ties to the Saddam regime.

These are detailed in the following link - The French Connection to Iraq

NRO: You say in your new book that the Iraq war was, in fact, all about oil.

Timmerman: The war in Iraq was indeed a war for oil — waged by the French, not the United States. The Chirac government was desperate to maintain its exclusive — and outrageously exploitative — oil contracts with Saddam's regime, which would have earned the French an estimated $100 billion during the first seven years of operations, according to experts I interviewed for my book. My worry today is that a Kerry administration would back the French, who continue to assert that these contracts are legally binding on the new Iraqi government. That would be a travesty and a dishonor to all those Iraqis who died under Saddam.

NRO: What are French motivations when dealing with these regimes — purely economic?

Timmerman: Contracts are certainly very important. Americans need to remember that France is not a free-market economy, as we still are (despite the efforts of Hillary Rodham Clinton to nationalize the U.S. health-care industry!). When French businessmen go abroad, they often travel in delegations led by the prime minister, or the foreign minister, or some other top official. The French government gets involved not just in opening doors, but in negotiating contracts. Often, these contracts have involved substantial kickbacks to French political parties. Even today, French companies can declare as an expense on their income-tax declaration the bribes and commissions they pay to foreign agents. This was banned in the United States in the 1970s under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. This is one of the reasons the French like to do business with dictators. In a free and fair market, their companies can't always compete.

France was not going to risk the loss of $100B in oil contracts over 7 years with the sweetheart deal with Saddam. They were also not going to risk their financial dealings with Iran over a decision to support the US over Iraq knowing full well how Iran would view it - and the risk to their regime.

France has basically become the replacement in economic aid and trade to the Soviet Union in the 3rd world. It is how they see that they can reclaim their "rightful" leadership position and be an "alternative" to the US.

The worst that Bush did was force France to pick which side it wanted to be on in the WoT and the geopolitical posturing of the early 21st century.

France made its bed, took its choice in direction, and now has to live with the facts of that decision.

It's sad that when France chose which way to go on their own, those inflicted with BDS blame the US President.

During his student days, Mr Straw was a rabid communist (like most New labour minister, actually - ex health secretary Alan Milburn ran a Trotskyite bookshop in Newcastle) and took holidays in Cuba. He also led a student "delegation" to Allende's Chile.

a Trotskyite bookshop in Newcastle

LOL! Very nicely sums up the Euro approach to terror!

halldor

Sorry, didn't make myself clear. Dress (esp. women's dress) and architecture following the French revolution were imitating the antiquity. But that's jsut one example...

The never-ending and ever more tiresome "But Le Monde Supports America!" line needs a review. Let's sample the Gallic wisdom of 9/12/01:

And America, in the solitude of its power, in its status as the sole superpower, now in the absence of a Soviet counter-model, has ceased to draw other nations to itself

OK, America, you beat the Russians. Now bugger off. We don't like you anymore.

But the reality is perhaps also that of an America whose own cynicism has caught up with. If Bin Laden, as the American authorities seem to think, really is the one who ordered the Sept. 11 attacks, how can we fail to recall that he was in fact trained by the CIA and that he was an element of a policy, directed against the Soviets, that the Americans considered to be wise? Might it not then have been America itself that created this demon?

Yep, it's all America's fault. They really should have left Afghanistan to the Russians, then none of this would have happened! (Sound familiar?)

Pearl Harbor marked the end of isolationism, so deeply rooted that it was not even moved by Hitler’s barbarity.

Hoo boy how those Frenchies moved when things got a bit barbarous back then!

Then came the Vietnam debacle, which led to a new doctrine, that of the rare but massive use of force, accompanied by the dogma of “zero casualties” for the United States, as illustrated during the Gulf War.

Yep, no American soldiers have died since Vietnam. Not one was lost in the Gulf. Why can't the Yankees play fair, and die in the thousands already? LOL!

In the eyes of American public opinion and its leadership, Islamic fundamentalism, in all its forms, risks being designated as the new enemy. Indeed, the anti-Islamic reflex, immediately after the attack on a federal building in Oklahoma City, resulted in statements that were ridiculous, if not downright odious.

Wouldn't want to risk identifying the enemy, would we? That would be crass and so terribly American.

Obviously it is a barbarous logic, marked by a new nihilism that is repugnant to the great majority of those who believe in Islam, which, as a religion, does not condone suicide any more than Christianity does, and certainly not suicide coupled with the massacre of innocent people.

Duh. Check the Muslim world polls, dude. And the news of, oh, the last thirty years or so. Cool on the nihilism thing though - those Yankees won’t get that one, will they? Beat terror with subtlety!

In the long term, this attitude is obviously suicidal, because it attracts lightning. And it might attract a bolt of lightning that does not discriminate.

The Yankees are going to fight back. Get ready to heap shit on them. Le Monde is on the job already!

Once the Oil for Food Program investigation is complete, I believe we'll learn that they have sold their soul.

Another possibility...the dingo ate their soul.

Eurabia wants to buy off the terrorists. The coin that they are most willing to use is Israel's ability to defend itself. It doesn't cost the Eurabians anything if they surrender Israel's right to defend itself.

That's why Eurabia has pretty much opposed Israel's right to build a defensive fence to protect its children against the Islamikazi terrorists. They are willing to surrender Israel's right to use passive defense.

And that's why Eurabia has pretty much opposed Israel's right to take the war to the enemy by swatting down the Pali terrorists' bin Laden-- Islamikazi leader Shiekh Yassin. They are willing to surrender Israel's right to use active defense.

And Eurabia will continue to oppose any exercise of Israel's right to defend itself, whether by active defense or by passive defense.

The age of spineless Europe is here, with the Euros willing to offer sympathy and support for the worst terrorists-- when it comes to Israel's defense.

In this case, at this point in time it is merely scolding Israel for defending itself. But it may get worse, as the Euros get hit with more terrorism, and they try harder to suck up to the terrorists by surrendering more of Israel's right to defend itself. By offering the terrorists Israel's security, that is not capitulation as much as it is collaboration. Vichy Europe.

James Taranto has some comments on this

www.opinionjournal.com

"BY JAMES TARANTO
Monday, March 22, 2004 3:23 p.m. EST

72 Raisins for Yassin
This morning brought happy news in the global war on terror: Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the genocidal maniac who serves as Hamas's "spiritual leader," is dead, killed by an Israeli missile strike. Yassin was quite a prolific murderer. "Over the past 3 1/2 years, . . . Hamas has, in 425 attacks, killed 377 Israelis and wounded 2076," notes the Jerusalem Post. "Hamas perpetrated 52 suicide attacks, in which 288 people were killed and 1646 were wounded."

The Middle East Media Research Institute quotes Yassin as saying in a 1998 interview: "The day in which I will die as a shahid [martyr] will be the happiest day of my life." So this is a happy day for everyone.

Everyone, that is, except the Europeans, including even Prime Minister Tony Blair, who lined up to condemn Israel. The Scotsman reports that Blair's spokesman called the death of this mass murderer "a setback" for the so-called peace process, while Foreign Secretary Jack Straw called the killing "unlawful" and added that "he did not believe that Israel would benefit from the killing of an old man in a wheelchair"--a rather condescending thing to say about people with disabilities. (Yassin was crippled in a childhood soccer accident.)

Reuters quotes France's Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin: "France condemns the action against Sheikh Yassin. At a time when it is important to mobilize for the relaunch of the peace process, such acts can only fuel the cycle of violence." Of course, if Hamas hadn't killed hundreds of innocent people, Israel would have had no cause to kill Yassin. But there are limits. "Germany avoided condemnation of the helicopter rocket attack," the "news" service notes. We suppose it would be awkward for Germany, of all countries, to mourn the death of a mass killer of Jews.

Meanwhile, London's Guardian reports that "Yasser Arafat has apologised to the father of a young Arab man who was shot dead in Jerusalem in a botched attempt by the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade to murder a Jewish settler":

George Khoury, a 20-year-old economics student at Jerusalem's Hebrew University and the son of a prominent lawyer, was jogging through a neighbourhood mostly populated by Jews when gunmen shot him in the head, neck and stomach on Friday night.

Arafat won a Nobel Peace Prize in 1994.

As far as we know, European leaders have issued no outraged condemnations of Khoury's murder. To guys like de Villepin, it would seem, Arab lives are cheap unless they are devoted to the murder of Jews."

Jack Straw, Foreign Secretary: "It is unacceptable. It is unjustified and it is very unlikely to achieve its objective. "

No, Mr. Straw, it was the attack on Ashdod Port that was as unjustified as it was unacceptable. As were countless other crimes against Israel, authorized by "an old man in a wheelchair". But you never referred to them as "unjustified", did you?

Javier Solana, Foreign policy chief: “This type of action does not contribute at all to create the conditions of peace. This is very, very bad news for the peace process. The policy of the European Union has been consistently condemnation of extra-judicial killing.

The policy of the European Union was consistent, indeed. The said policy was to finance the war against Israel. So it is rather unbecoming for the EU functionaries to talk of the "peace process", whatever that is. They did not contribute to creating the conditions for peace, but rather the opposite.

Speaking of men in wheelchairs, Elad Wassa, 26 is one of them, courtesy of Yassin and Co. And so are many others. So Yassin has been brought to justice, and may the rest of mass murderers follow him.

But it may get worse, as the Euros get hit with more terrorism, and they try harder to suck up to the terrorists by surrendering more of Israel's right to defend itself.

Cheer up, that is not Europe's right to surrender. I don't think the IDF checked with Prodi for a final OK as the Yassin mission was launched. Nor will it on the next operation.

If Europe ever does have to buy peace with Hamas to protect its own, I suspect it will. But we aren't there yet. Europe's reaction to Hamas is more idiocy than fear. Fear is in the AQ debate. That is, where you find the idiocy that refuses to see that AQ is Hamas repackaged, for Europe, among so many other targets.

#201 pond . . .

Hope you're still awake (you're in the UK, right?). That was a GREAT fisking of Le Monde!

#201 pond . . .

Re your fisking--I think it's what the French call "explication de texte."

promethea (208) - cheers! :-) bigel lent me a pen and all, ya know

Bigel
Yet somehow Europe (the West) was first to abolish slavery, came up with idea of progress, gave equality to women, released Jews from the ghettos, etc.

Not much point to killing Klinghoffer, an old man in a wheelchair. But does anyone believe that if the Nazis had killed FDR, a weak man in a wheelchair, this would have been a tremendous blow to the allies?

#3 Sharkman 3/22/2004 10:00AM PST

Be a little more careful on the names you use against the Euroweenies, Eurowusses, etc.

You said that after, WW I and WW II, "Everyone else who remains are absolute pussies. Very sad."

Next time you use that term for female genitalia to mean "coward," remember that there are thousands of "pussies" serving honorably in Iraq and across the world.

I don't mean to suggest that one shouldn't use the term in genuine ribald humor, or as an affectionate term for cats -- but as a synonym for coward, that's just wuss.

And in my country I've just opened a bottle of "Vodka Wyborowa' to celebrate...

Europe is sick.
Europe is condemned.

Check out this website for a compilation of the day's condemnations.

[Link: www.geocities.com...]

G-d bless Israel and LGF.

"extra-judicial killing" ? This is a war, not a court procedure. This war will not be won by serving summonses.

Bizarre that the Euros keep pretending that they don't understand the meaning of war. And it is a war being fought against Islamikazi terrorism. The terrorists do not follow any rules of war, they deliberately target bystanders. Against such a foe, the conventional rules of war do not hold, since the enemy does not observe any rules of war.

But to imagine this war to be a court procedure is to lose their grip on reality. Or just to spout nonsense, to try to court the good will of the terrorists.

That seems to be the European way these days: to try to buy the terrorists, by paying with words that delegitimize Israel's right to defend itself.

Bigel, thanks for calling me a moron. Technically speaking everyone put Jews in ghettos or subjected to other kinds of "special" treatment, in Europe, however, Jews were emancipated. You know, Bigel, you have to give credit when it's due.

For instance, lets give credit to the people of Russia. Cell phone poll conducted by a Moscow radio station showed that 70% of respondents supported Israeli government eradicating Yassin. 4849 calls were received by the radio station within 5 minutes. Not very scientific, but still impressive. (In Russian.)

Treebeard: The ents cannot hold back this war. We must weather such things as we have always done.

Merry: How can that be your decision?

Treebeard: This is not our war.

Merry: But your part of this world!

Merry: Aren’t you. You must help. Please. You must do something.

Treebeard: You are young and brave, master Merry. But your part in this tale is over. Go back to your home.

Pippin: Maybe Treebeard’s right. We don’t belong here, Merry. It’s too big for us. What can we do in the end?We’ve got the Shire. Maybe we should go home.

Merry: The fires of Isengard will spread. And the woods of Tuckburough and Buckland will burn. And all that was once green and good in this world will be gone. There won’t be a Shire, Pippin.

Next time you use that term for female genitalia to mean "coward," remember that there are thousands of "pussies" serving honorably in Iraq and across the world.

I don't mean to suggest that one shouldn't use the term in genuine ribald humor, or as an affectionate term for cats -- but as a synonym for coward, that's just wuss.

Thank you or that reminder. I agree. Can we still say,
"bending over and grabbing their ankles" when a person or nation gives into terrorism?

The best we could do was no comment from the President, an obligatory remark by Boucher on how Israel has a right to defend herself followed by the inevitable lament about what this does for the "peace process". Pathetic.

I think it's fantastic that the Israelis have developed a rocket powered wheel chair, and were kind enough to donate their first working prototype to Sheikh Yassin.

PS Jack Straw only talks for himself - he is a 'politically correct' twat... ...as is the whole Labour government here in the UK.

Have you noticed? All this European chatter about "escalation" and the notorious "cycle of violence" is an outpouring of the wishful thinking of those who feel more Palestinian than the Palestinians. All these who complain that Yassin was sitting in a wheelchair know very well that his clubfoot didn't make Goebbels even a little bit less dangerous than he was.

It is important to understand that what drives Europe is not fear but LLL. To an outside observer, this suicidal tendency might perfectly look like fear, but if there was nothing wrong than that Europe was stuck in fear, why do most Europeans believe that anything that weakens Israel and the U.S. would benefit Europe? It is understandable that an outside observer might prefer fear as an explanation of the current mindset of Europe, such as outside observers tend to prefer desparation as an easy-going explanation of the mindset of the suicide bombers, but it also is wrong. The purpose of that chatter about desperation and fear is to distract from the trans-cultural death cult, be it Islamism for the suicide bombers or Antiimperialism for Europe.

Since I got onto this board I've begun to see the West not as a single culture, but as a principled alliance of - currently two - different cultures. This thread shows me how it looks like if somebody tries to analyze your culture from the outside and explains everything he doesn't understand with substitutes taken from his own culture. For example, observers from a Christian culture such as America often tend to see Europe as another Christian culture, while Europeans tend to see American Christianity as an evil theocracy just like the Roman papacy. When I discussed the implications of the Madrid bombings, every European of any opinion whom I told about Charles' interpretation ("the Crusades are over") was totally surprised that this was news to Americans. On the other hand, it might be surprising to Americans that one of the key messages of anti-German dissent, that the Enlightenment is mostly unfinished business, is news to most Europeans. Today, European secularism is in a very difficult situation because it is ridden by the suicidal death cult of LLL which makes it blind for the threat of Islamist theocracy. In this situation, fantasizing of a Christian Europe isn't a solution.

Just a reminder that not everyone in the UK shares the view of the Rt Hon Jack Straw

[Link: www.thesun.co.uk...]

How's that for being in the line of fire?

#225 leo(dissident view from Berlin)

On the other hand, it might be surprising to Americans that one of the key messages of anti-German dissent, that the Enlightenment is mostly unfinished business, is news to most Europeans.

Could you clarify this, please? What exactly is "anti-German dissent"?

Sky News in the UK has been running a poll asking whether Yassin's death will increase terrorism - as Jack Straw implies.

The clear majority view so far is No - which suggests that most respondents think Straw is talking rubbish.

The Anti-Germans are a little offshoot of the European Left who say that the Left has been turned into an apocalyptic cult over the 20th century because the counterrevolution of 1848 was seen as a revolution.

see Wikipedia: Anti-German

#229 JohninLondon

I hope someone will take Straw to task personally and in public for the comments he made. He should be asked to account for himself. Unfortunately, the British media are practically all on his side.

#230 leo(dissident view from Berlin)

They must be a new offshoot, or something to do with the Volker Radke website?

That Wikipedia link didn't work for me, but I'll try again later.

I still don't really understand the point about the Enlightenment being "unfinished business".

Straw's allusion to Leon Klinghoffer in his criticism of the lancing of the Yassin boil is shameless. Klinghoffer was a tourist; Yassin was a terrorist.

Europe Stands Shoulder to Shoulder with Hamas, by Michael Morris
[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

But let's concentrate on Jack Straw, the British Foreign Minister, who deserves special treatment for being the epitome of hypocrisy. His government is currently involved in all sorts of special operations with the US, in which ex-judicial killings are a fact of life. British SAS forces wouldn't blink twice if they had the opportunity to assassinate Bin Laden.

So how can this pompous fool of a man even dare to criticize Israel for the type of successful operation which led to the removal of Yassin? Perhpas it's only to please his European collegues -- a convenient compromise of buffoons. Or maybe he really is as pathetic as he sounds.

-- Michael Morris
[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

#232 halldor: Volker Radke is a part of this. You'll find a lot more links on my site, but most of it was never translated. The analysis of the Elightenment refers to Theodor W. Adorno who described the Holocaust as a phenomenon where all of rationality had been subordinated to an irrational goal. Adorno provides a philosophical analysis based on Kant, Hegel and Marx which says that Auschwitz was not an accident but the peak of a consistent development, and that it has forced the new categorical imperative upon mankind that this shall never happen again.