I see this as progress.We must not hamper our troops from fighting to win.period.I,mean,if it were a legitimate religion it might give me pause,but factss is facts.

XX beings carrying guns??!! Must be for reloads, I can't imagine any of them have been taught to shoot.

I agree 100%, but it should also be noted that Marines had been shot from the mosque.

Five Marines had been shot from the mosque before commanders authorized the use of air power and laser-guided missiles against it, Marines said at the scene. They had rejected the air attack several times, according to Marine officers and radio communications monitored from a command post by a Washington Post reporter.

"We've got to be careful," said one officer receiving a request for air support from the Marines around the mosque.

"We have some bad folks dug in," came the response. "They're creating a problem for us. What should we do? We need backup."

"We need regimental approval," came the reply.

Not long afterwards, a spokesman at the command post said the air support was authorized. A spokesman said the missiles were fired from a helicopter and a jet.

Washington Post

One less cess-pool of hate

Freedomsound had some good pictures of the "worshippers" here.

We will respect their mosques as much as they do.

Did someone fail to notice that the day of worship is Friday?

I'm sure (sarcasm) that these guys are really religious and all, but even the most religious Catholics aren't in Church every day, all day.

Mosque loudspeakers blared calls for jihad, or holy war, and women were seen carrying guns in the streets.

See?! Just like at any Presbyterian Church.

/[fill it in yourself]

TO: Charles Johnson
RE: That's No Mosque...

...that's a fortified enemy position from which our troops were receiving effective fire.

The reports are that they Marines had been calling for air support to suppress the fire they were receiving from the mosque for quite some time. Finally the commanders at echelon's above God, relented and the gunships moved it.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

And I am growing mighty weary of the mantra "theholycityofnajaf" piously recited by the dhimmi newsbots.

Well, I was under the impression that terrorists and assorted enemies of our country were prevented by a mystical energy shield from entering places of worship, therefore making it impossible for our enemies to be harbored within.

/tinfoil hat

1) You call for Jihad, you become a target.

2) You carry a gun, regardless of gender, you become a target.

Don't like it? TFB.

As has been said by many a poster, both here and on other blogs, if you're taking pot shots at Marines from inside a msoque, you've just made that mosque a viable target. But, I have no doubt before the week's over, we'll not only hear several condemnations from our "allies" in the UN, but also a few cries from the Arab nations for the US to be brought up on war crimes charges.

As to the journalists, I'm not feelin' a whole lot of pity right now. They have no business being in a combat zone during live fire and if they got lured out into the middle of the desert with the promise of interviewing Al-Sadr, then IMHO, their lives are forfeit. We don't have the time and resources to go save civies who knowingly put themselves into danger.

#9 Thom™

Every muslim town is holy, every halfbaked moonbat is a cleric or doctor, every camel is a babe. Get with the program...;-)

The loony left will be screaming about the mosque that was apparently hit by US soldiers today. “Insensitive! War crime! Where’s my latté, wage slave?”

Speaking of Markos Zuniga:

So, does anyone get blamed, and who would it be? It's hard to blame the Marines on the ground; if they're taking fire, they're going to want to eliminate the source of the fire. Is it the commanders in the field? The commanders at the regimental level? Who authorized the hit? Is there a way to not sacrifice the soldiers in theater and still contain the political and P.R. damage that this will cause? And who will raise the fact that problems like this are almost inevitable in the current mess in Iraq?

I saw Hesiod over on the Command Post decrying mosque destruction. This was after he acknowledged that they are viable targets because of what goes on within the mosques. I really don't think some on the left understand that most, if not all, of our enemies see our hesitation and kid glove treatment as weakness, not sensitivity.

I dont recall lefties complaining when the ATF et stormed the "sacred" "religious" site in Waco.

Thought experiment: If we were fighting a loony, moonbat-ruled Christian insurgency in, say, Texas, with David Koresh-style preachers screaming incitement against the rule of law and urging their followers to shoot at the police and the National Guard, would there be quite so many leftists whimpering about religious tolerance?

Oh, but those would just be Christian nutjobs. Muslim nutjobs holed up in a mosque ... that's different.

The AP has become Al-Jazeera lite. Now, when I see an AP tag, I read with great caution. Whatever happened to waiting for confirmation? The AP has become a rumor press. Nothing matters but to get the story out as quickly as possible--never mind accuracy. If a local says it, it must be true. This smacks of "Jenin, Jenin," until time proves otherwise.

My predication is that it will turn out that these people indeed were armed and firing, and that the mosque had become an armed camp. The enemy cannot be allowed to believe that refuge in a mosque is all it takes to stay our hand, and that they can attack with impunity if in a mosque (or a church--shades of the Church of the Nativity!).

What's even sadder is that, like the Palestinians, the enemy has learned that hiding behind women and children and forcing us to kill some in order to get to the "warriors" is a sure-fire win-win progaganda move. Sickening. And the press plays along with the game.

There is a certain genius to a fascism bound up in religion. It allows its practicioners to hide--some might say cower--behind the sacrosant. It bamboozles its enemies, who may not believe in religion but certainly believe in the freedom to practise religion, to ignore the hateful, harmful things done in Islam's name. Where are Iraq's WMDs? The human ones, at least, can be found in its mosques.

Dear Pakistan,

Al Qaeda's headquarters are in a mosque/madrassa. The Binori Town Madrassa is the headquarters.

Please sack it ASAP.

Sincerely,

The Secular World

PS. We'll handle the PR.

I just got banned from Daily Kos. And I'm not famous for being a flamer either. They simply abhor to hear views that don't conform to theirs.

Hey freedomsound! You owe me 5 bucks for shilling your link!

LOL. dB^)

#13 FreakyBoy

Yeah. But this guy in theholycityofhagerstown is about to barf! When are these dhimmis gonna wake up??

#16

I do recall lefties (and righties too) decrying what happened in Waco. Maybe the rot wasn't as bad back then.

Quote for thought:

AP: U.S. Hits Mosque Compound; 40 Said Killed

But Marine Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne said he ordered the mosque attacked after his men came under fire from 30-40 insurgents inside and militants left the compound in an ambulance and shot at U.S. troops.

"If they use the mosque as a military machine, then it's no longer a house of worship and we strike," he said.

The Marines get it.

This is a war. You can't give these guys a free pass just because they are in a certain kind of building. In fact, we should probably completely level the place. It would probably prevent 20 others from having to get destroyed later.

I'd say the same thing for the offices and police stations "occupied" yesterday. Don't send marines in harms way to capture some building. Level them with the thugs inside. You'll see much fewer offices being "occupied".

And I also think we should respect their mosques as much as they respect our churches (Church of the Nativity anyone?) and synagogues.

#21 Austin

Dissent is censorship!
Censorship is dissent!

Mosques, that must be Arabic for Armories.

About time. Too many layers of command or bad rules of engagment. You can't fight an urban war when you have to call lawyers before you can pull hte trigger. Our guys are well trained, and fight with honor. Take the reins off and let them get the job done!!

#9 Thom™ - I hope we leave that place holier than they ever expected it to be! Like, say, a couple hundred thousand holes from M-16's, grenade launchers, etc.
Holy - they hide in a "holy place" - a mosque and try to murder our troops from within?
Back in the day, we sometimes took fire from a friendly village. If it was a friendly village, we were supposed to get on the horn to "higher higher" (commanding officers) for permission to shoot back. We always did contact higher, higher, although sometimes it would be after the fact.
I'm sure you're gonna hear from a lot of the LLL's about how wrong it is. I'd be surprised if Kerry criticized returning fire, except of course when he later says that returning fire was ok.

And I am growing mighty weary of the mantra "theholycityofnajaf" piously recited by the dhimmi newsbots.

I agree! Mohamed took a dump here - its a holy city. He picked his nose here - its a holy city. He had sex with a 9 year old girl here - its a holy city. He passed gas here - its a holy city. He had a dream about a city - its a holy city. Who cares! To the Islamo-facists all of the Middle East is a holy place.

I say its time for us to flatten all the mosques and then send some J. Witnesses over to build some Kingdom Halls.

After reading all the posts at Winds of Change on the value of LGF today, I can say with certainty that this is the time when the documentary nature of LGF becomes most valuable.

It would sure help if Big Media dropped their script in favor of reality. I'm betting that within the hour, "news" organizations will be full of "analysts" declaring that the US firing on the mosque will inflame Arab sensibilities and lead to more bloodshed.

Except that our marines were already wounded by the "worshippers" firing from the mosque. Hence, target.

Godspeed to all our troops as the temporary "cessation of hostilities" comes to an end and the battle against those who took off their Republican Guard uniforms one year ago and snuck off into the populace commences.

Yeah, mosques are real holy places; for recruiting, training, stockpiling and fighting their holy wars. Only some mindlessly obtuse fool would sweat about how a bunch of fascist bloodthirsty jihadists feel about this! Good shooting!

The decision of our enemy to use mosques as staging areas, command posts, or arsenals, along with women and children as shields can't be permitted to deter us. If in good faith we believe it's a target hit, hit it as hard as necessary to take it out. Maybe local populations won't allow themselves to be used as shields when they learn it's not stopping anyone.

Finish this job.

Bush just has to do it. Be ready for the LLL and their lapdogs in the media. Nothing Bush and our military can or will do will ever abate their treasonous carping. They are a bunch of hippies and children of hippies trying to have their "Vietnam", to cause the death of our soldiers and the defeat of our nation by their monopoly of the media. This time we cannot allow them to win. There is too much at stake.

Only the credulous can believe that the "former regime members," al Qaida thugs, Shi'ite radicals and international Jihadis could all just happen to spring up and attack at once. They did so during a major troop redeployment as US forces most familiar with a particular area rotated back state side for well deserved R&R.

Accidents don't happen and war is the most planned of all things. So who is planning all these attacks? Who trained these people and who is underwriting these attacks?

In a word Iran. Our old enemy; the Mullahs who have the most to lose if the US brings democracy to Iraq, planned and laid out this little offensive. Debka reports Iranian Revolutionary Guards are in Iraq, Sadr told Hezbollah and Hamas its one war.

It is one war. Iran is subsidizing the murder of Americans and hosting al-Qaida.

The US response has been pathetically week. While our ground troops are very tied up, our air and naval units have very little to do. Americans have died; its time for the US to hit Iran HARD. Hit their command centers and hit their air and naval installatians, and definitely hit their nuclear facilities. Were I Bush I would tell boy Assad to hand over every single terrorist in Damanscus and Beruit withing 48 hours or Syria get's it too. We lost in Vietnam because we could not stop China and the USSR from supporting the North. Vietnam was not worth a global nuclear war, but Iran and Syria are not nuclear powers and there is ample evidence of their complicity in interfering with US efforts. We now know they are much more active in these efforts; this spring offensive was planned and co-ordinated by our enemies.

Bush has reached the Rubicon, he must not falter or the Iraq war is lost.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I often carry an RPG to Mass, esp. when I go to Confession.

C'est la guerre.

Mosque shmosk, an armory or battlement by any other name is still an armory or battlement. A place of worship is only considered a safe haven when it does not participate in a conflict. This is what is considered normal practice. Anything else negates it's safe haven status, therefore once it assumes another role it becomes a fair target. There are only present and past targets, I home they follow that progression, and fast.

Since the jihadis don't recognize a distinction between Islam and the state, then we shouldn't either. Catholic churches don't usually fill up with people with machine guns. If a mosque is used to shelter terrorists then it becomes a target. A mosque full of idiots with guns, as well as women and children represents the usual practice of Arab men hiding behind their women and kids. Our military commanders should broadcast a warning: using a mosque to harbor terrorists will result inthe mosque being obliterated. And hiding behind civilians won't matter. A couple of mosques blown to bits
might get the point across.

Denbeste said it all when he stated that by taking up armed insurrection against our forces made the bad guys a legimate target for shooting on site. It gives our guys the ability to take out as many of these maggots as they can. Shoot first and worry about it later.

Please, please, NO MORE MR NICE GUY

That guy in front right of the picture looks like the one kid who's mother insists on making his Halloween costume when everyone else gets store-bought ones. So he winds up dressed in a bedsheet, looking embarrassed.

Can one make an RPG out of ingedients found in your garage? I doubt it but it seems every muslim has one over there. How much do they cost and who is supplying them? Why doesn't our media ever ask and try to answer that question?

Hmm, 40 birds with one stone, now that's practical. I see that rpg's are now a "religious mandate" right along side the hijab for women. I can't waite to see American muslums demanding that they be able to take their drivers liscence photos while holding one.

Uh, what is it with our leaders that prevents them from stating clearly and without apology that armed enemies are always legitimate targets, no matter where thy choose to position themselves? Maybe throw in a "We certainly hope they will not endanger civilians or sensitive structures, but unless they surrender they will be fought wherever they are found."

Everytime a reporter opens his treason-hole and the word "mosque" comes out, this should be the response. Let everyone know that we're the ones acting appropriately and in accordance with international law. Dispel the myth, expose the anti-American manipulation being perpetrated by the press, and it's smooth sailing from there on out.

This is a message that should have been driven home to Iraqis much sooner as well. Don't even bother whining, because it'll be you in the wrong, and it won't stop us. Want to protect your mosques? Better start policing your jihadis.

It's about damn time...you shoot from a mosque, you get shot back at in a mosque. Funny, I don't remember anyone saying ANYTHING when the Palestinians took over and desecrated the Church of the Nativity. PC is over. This is reality.

After the believers entered the mosque, fighting for their right to enslave women and kill westerners whenever they wanted, the situation escalated. In reaction to their fervent prayers that God help the righteous, God did bring down fire from the sky upon the heads of the guilty ones, in the form of some Apache gunships (not having any B-2 available at the moment).

unless we value some misguided ideal of political correctness over our own troops’ lives:

Hello, Earth to Charles: Incoming message:

Yes, we do have a misguided ideal of political correctness. We have had this for years. You need to read Little Green Footballs.

The moslem terrorists descrated their own mosques, and now they're crying foul after they get hit? (spit on ground)

#36 Kevin Shook

I don't know about the rest of you, but I often carry an RPG to Mass, esp. when I go to Confession.

In case the good father has the temerity to give you too many "Our Father's"? ;)

I now understand how to get the far left with us, in this war.

That tall man in the middle, He's smoking a cigarette in a public place! Pure Evil!

#24 Laurence Simon 4/7/2004 10:44AM PST

The Marines get it.

...And is also allowable according to the Law of Land Warfare:

45. Buildings and Areas To Be Protected

a. Buildings To Be Spared.

In sieges and bombardments all necessary measures must be taken to spare, as far as possible, buildings dedicated to religion, art, science, or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not being used at the time for military purposes.

Law of Land Warfare

Let's see, how many German snipers hiding in bell towers of churches did we take out with artillery in WWII, answer, Many.

If there's a war crime here, it's on the folks who were shooting from the mosque. Using a protected location (Religious building, hospital, cultural site) as cover negates the protection & if a war crime on the part of the folks using it as such. Otherwise, the site wouldn't be protected from such abuse.

You know how they now call the Shi'ite uprising in the French media?
The Intifada.
No comment

The same mindset that sees all mosques as mere places of worship also saw Sheik Yassin as "the spiritual leader" of Hamas. Terrorism tarted up in religious garb is still terrorism, the BBC, Reuters, The Guardian et al notwithstanding.

I'm proud of our boys for taking out the mosque wall.

I hope they are less discriminating in the future.

Mosques are enemy sanctuary, they must be destroyed.

#31 Kevin Shook

LOL. Can you imagine if we did that here to all of the towns in which George Washington slept?

{And, no, I'm not stalking you in spite of appearances. Go back to not noticing the man behind the bushes...}

Geez
Why are these people taking guns into a "holy" place? Are they gonna shoot God? I mean I don't go to church with a gun? I think Islam is just a way to be nutso and get away with it.

OT:

in the Toronto Star.. Canada adopts Sharia

Islamists in Canada have recently set up an Islamic Institute of Civil Justice to oversee tribunals that would arbitrate family disputes and other civil matters between people from Muslim origin on the basis of the Islamic Sharia law. This is the first time in any western country that the medieval precepts of the Sharia have been given any validity.

Mosques are my favorite kinda target: immobile. Sure, they provide cover for the enemy. But that just makes a bigger target for artillery and missiles to hit. And usually, watching a building explode will get the message across to the other fighters that we're not f*cking around anymore.

Breaking news: screener in Atlanta airport found what appears to be a bomb in one of the restrooms.

Muslims were showing their respect for religious buildings only the other week...in Kosovo

everyone...the term is lawful target, not viable target.

#49 RIP Ford

I'm with you. That shit wouldn't fly in California. Brutally killing innocent people is one thing, but smoking...? Not in my America.

twisterella #2
Actually, both men and women were carrying guns there.

#49 RIP Ford -

LMFAO!!!

Luckily, after Fallujah, the US isn't following the advice it constantly gives Israel. You know, show restraint, proportionate responce and so on.

SF Bay Indymedia is also calling this "the beginning of the Iraqi Intifada". What horseshit. It is an armed uprising against our forces and should be treated exactly the same as armed uprisings in Germany at the end of WW2. 1. Order a cease and desist. 2. Deliver an ultimatum to stand down or be shot. 3. Shoot. 4. Repeat step 3 as often as necessary.

Hey it's Islam...

The world's Fascists growing a religion.

Need I say more?

I don't think the modern press has any conception of what war in an Urban setting is like. During WWII Church steeples and Bell Towers were often used as Forward Obervation Points for Artillary spotters. They were usually the highest point in the local area. As result the lifespan of the village Church was measured in minutes when US Forces engaged the Germans for control of a town. The first they we went for was the German FOP. The US military does not discrimante against any particular religion when its property is used for a military purpose.

These thugs deserve it...there is no holiness in that mosque, these are the same thugs that have been murdering Christians since the liberation of Iraq.
They should have been locked up, taken out, long ago.
But better late than never.

Fox News on air just now.

Second Mosque hit.

As Queen sang, Another One Bites The Dust.

#53 Scaramouche

The same mindset that sees all mosques as mere places of worship also saw Sheik Yassin as "the spiritual leader" of Hamas

Prescisely. I wonder if part of the reason that mosques' and the so-called "holy places" of Islam have been off-limits for so long is in part because of the West's secularlization. I think that if not awed, those from the West are inordinately respectful of expressions of religiousity, especially when it demands and receives unconditional obedience. Might we be a little guilt tripped by all this?

#2 Twisterella. Sorry, those babes need not carry Kalishnikovs in order to "reload." Banana clips under their chadors would work just fine. Who gives a shit if they can't shoot straight? I'll bet the 11 and 12 year old boys aren't in the marksman class either.

Nothing Bush and our military can or will do will ever abate their treasonous carping. They are a bunch of hippies and children of hippies trying to have their "Vietnam", to cause the death of our soldiers and the defeat of our nation by their monopoly of the media. This time we cannot allow them to win. There is too much at stake.

Exactly correct. Just like every aggressively boring hippie who still won't shut the F up about woodstock, these Liberal Hippie Captain Queegs want to re-live thier famous 1968 Vietnam "cheese incident."

To all of you lefties who deign to "enlighten" us about the lessons of Vietnam, get it straight once and for all.

Vietnam was a distster for our Troops, the morale of our country, and most of all for the hapless South Vietnamese and Combodians who were murdered and oppressed in the MILLIONS by your "friends" the North Vietnamese Communists.

We didn't "lose" Vietnam because of "bureucratic incompetence" or because of some military debacle, we lost it BECAUSE OF YOU, You simpering, whining, stupid, filthy commie fellow-travelers, Hanoi Janes, Tom Haydens, Abbie Hoffmans and JOHN F. KERRYs. You scumbags deliberately sought to demoralize the United States and give comfort and encouragement TO OUR ENEMIES.

The fact that you are desperate to re-live that shameful episode, just underlines your moral depravity and seditiousness.

As for mosques being sacrosanct, mohammed himself was a bandit, murderer and warlord. It only stands to reason that his headquarters are a legitimate target.

As far as I'm concerned, a mosque is no holier than a Nazi beer hall. Bombs away.

didn't scroll through all of the above, but did anybody catch to "Sadrs men capture US Marines" story at drudge? Any more on this...

Kerry: Terrorist Shiite Al-Sadr 'A Legitimate Voice'

According to the report, the "militants" fired on the Marines from inside the mosque... This is expressly prohibited by the Qur'an...

"And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter;but do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith." [Qur'an 2:191]

My commentary here

From USAToday

But Marine Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne said he ordered the mosque attacked after his men came under fire from 30 to 40 insurgents inside and militants left the compound in an ambulance and shot at U.S. troops.

"If they use the mosque as a military machine, then it's no longer a house of worship and we strike," he said.

It is about time.

OT: Here's a fun little Al-Jazeera editorial.

Israelis better at manipulating media

Ted Kennedy. He's going to rant and rave that we did harm to a sacred religious holy site, etc etc. Ted Kennedy, the guru of the LLLs. He and his ilk give aid and comfort to our enemies. He's their inspiration. He hates the US and democracy. The Jihadis love him.

Thanks, Charles. What you do is so valuable.

LGF, the point the left makes is not that attacking a Mosque is a war crime. They are saying that it is incredibly stupid from a "hearts and minds" point of view. I know that you are more of a "blood and splattered brains" type, though.

Now let me get back to my latte.

#73 D to the L

I believe that was later clarified as 'western journalists' who were later released. FOX was reporting it around 11:30 EDT.

One reason jihadis use mosques for launching attacks is that they rely on bleating from loonies in the west.

I remember reading some time ago about a huge HAMAS bomb lab found on the floor above a maternity ward (in Nablus?) Aside from the weapon being built in proximity to the delivery system, the only reason for Palis situating a bomb factory near a maternity ward is to turn their own living children into dead propaganda meat.

The sicko Islamofascist sympathisers over at Indymedia are drooling over images that terrorist propaganda filthpipe Al-Jazeera is claiming are of children killed in the raid on Falluja, which is a tragedy piled on a tragedy: we've all seen pictures of cowardly Islamists using children, even babies, as human shields. Why do they do it?

To feed the mock outrage (the latte quip is very appropriate, Charles) of leftists.

Apart from a wish to discourage military action by ensuring maximum civilian casualties, what other reason is there using schools, hospitals and mosques as military bases, which not even the wackiest leftist could plausibly deny that the Palis/Iraqis/Islamists do?

72 Martel-Sobieski - Hey come on guy!! This LGF, you don't have "sugar coat" your opinions!! I mean how do you really fee.
BTW - I'm told that Woodstock really was GREAT (I was working off the approved map at the time and couldn't really appreciate it). But I did become a hippie (oh yeah, mama, free love!!) and still do love the music.

#81 emo

The Palestinians have even been caught displaying kids killed in car accidents as being killed by IDF troops.

Slightly OT

Here's an interesting blog entry from a female American soldier describing the evacuation of Kut.

It's all part of the coordinated Ted Offensive. (see Instapundit, yesterday)

This is not just Sadr's last shot, and the Fallujahn's last shot, it's the media's last shot to discredit the entire Iraq operation.

#8 - Chuck Pelto

Finally the commanders at echelon's above God, relented and the gunships moved it.

Echelon above God, otherwise known as the Sergeant Major.

It looks like the Marines over there are remembering the words of one of the greatest Marines ever, Lt. Gen. Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, "Son, if they give you any shit, level the place."

OT
By the way speaking of evil. Did any of you see this on Newsmax this morning?

" Kerry: Terrorist Shiite Al-Sadr 'A Legitimate Voice'

In an interview broadcast Wednesday morning, Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry defended terrorist Shiite imam Muqtada al-Sadr as a "legitimate voice" in Iraq, despite that fact that he's led an uprising that has killed nearly 20 American GIs in the last two days.

Speaking of al-Sadr's newspaper, which was shut down by coalition forces last week after it urged violence against U.S. troops, Kerry complained to National Public Radio, "They shut a newspaper that belongs to a legitimate voice in Iraq."

www.newsmax.com

78 Abu al-UpChuck 4/7/2004 11:11AM PST

sacred religious holy site, etc etc. Ted Kennedy

[Link: www.israelinsider.com...]

Palestinian gunmen continue to hold hostages in Church of the Nativity
Where and when did Teddy complain when those terrorist in Israel held up and desecrated that Catholic church in 2002?

#74 Let's Roll - What an annoying sob he is.
He did do one of his patented "Kerrys" and reversed field slightly. This is the money quote:

"and aligned himself with both Hamas and Hezbollah, which is a sort of terrorist alignment."

Yup, sorta!!

sorry meant held hostages..

Absolutely nothing new! In Fallujah they hide inside a mosque! In Nassiryiah today they were shooting at the Italians from behind women and children! In the Gaza Strip they send their women and children to blow themselves up! In the civilised world it's called "cowardice". They are masters of cowardice!

#56 riverofpearls

At the start of this year, the LDS (Mormons) banned guns in their churches and related buildings. Last year some Episcopal churches posted signs saying that the church banned guns in their buildings. And yes, there were objections.

Also, in colonial times churches were the central meeting places for many American communities, and therefore many meetings of revolutionists took place in them, many militias mustered there.

Which is all beside the point, because the revolutionists who mustered there did not then turn a church into Firebase Gloria, did not stock weapons there, did not profane a holy place with temporal concerns. Mormons and Episcopalians were not firing out of church windows and had no intention of being the first person to use a gun in the church, only to return fire or pre-emptively neutralize anyone who brought heavy temporal concerns into the holy place.

The important thing is that our enemy should nto be able to rely on our honor to take the lives of our soldiers.

So far we're doing okay; they expected to ambush us within hours of their mob desecrating our dead, and they expected us to back down when they shot at us from a religious building. But we were neither too rash nor too timid, but deliberate. And lethal.

#22 Thom™

Hehe, thanks Thom™. And thank you Charles for the hat tip on the pic.

I think we passed a very important test today by not allowing those ghouls to use the "religious" status of a building as cover. I have renewed faith in our will to see this thing through.

Gotta love our Marines, bless them all.

But what is Sistani doing about all this? Not much.

While a close aide of Sistani's reportedly urged in the ayatollah's name that Shia demonstrators ''remain calm'' Monday, he also noted their demands were ''legitimate'' and that Sistani ''condemns acts waged by the occupation forces''.

This is from this link: [Link: www.commondreams.org...]

#79 The Bellman

Hearts and minds? Are you serious?

#74 Let's Roll:

This is HUGE. I read it and I'm still in complete disbelief. John Kerry = Tool

Certainly this will get picked up in the next 24hrs??...one can only hope.

#79 The Bellman

LGF, the point the left makes is not that attacking a Mosque is a war crime. They are saying that it is incredibly stupid from a "hearts and minds" point of view.

And it's an ignorant argument. Unlike Westerners, Iraqis know exactly what's going on in the mosques.
Hope you weren't afraid to stick around to see a response to your post.

I'm still waiting for a [bigoted word] (Note to Rabid Lefties: By "[bigoted word]" I mean Mullah, Iman, Spiritual Leader.) to strap some explosive on and blow himself up. But I suspect it will be a LONG wait.

I'm glad they are shooting at the mosques now, but I genuinely fear that the situation in Iraq is getting out of control.I am getting fed up with this BS. I was under the impression that the U.S military had some pretty heavy firepower, yet I keep hearing about marines being pinned down for hours in these firefights. I don't understand, can't we hit Al-Sadr's guys from the air, and take a lot of them out, with one hit, too? Like someone else said, if Al Sadr's guys seize a police station, don't risk marines' lives to take it back - drop a bomb on the damn police station! And have you heard the latest? Sistani has condemned the U.S. response to the uprisings. He's probably just biding his time - if Al Sadr proves his mettle, Sistani may side with him and take the rest of the Shi'a with him. If that happens, I honestly don't know what the response should be. I think maybe we should bring in more troops, a ton more. Control over these cities in the south has to be reestablished and SOON.

LGF, the point the left makes is not that attacking a Mosque is a war crime. They are saying that it is incredibly stupid from a "hearts and minds" point of view. I know that you are more of a "blood and splattered brains" type, though.

I believe we saw the "hearts and minds" of the Jihadists and their supporters on 9/11 and when they celebrated soon thereafter. I really don't want to win over their hearts and minds - they seem pretty depraved.

#74 Let's Roll

Holy crap! He is insane and is still pandering to the looniest of the LLL, and will continue to alienate any Democrat with half a brain (democrats with more than half a brain already plan to vote Bush).

The loony left will be screaming about the mosque that was apparently hit by US soldiers today.

Just for the record. Has there been any screaming yet over this?

How many churches were burned in Nigeria last week?

If the Americans were serious about ending the uprising in Iraq, B-2's would be flying and releasing their payloads all over Iran right now.

These are the children of the wonderful iraqi's insurgents.

#57 Bigdog: AKA Abu do you love

That's not accurate. There are Islamic Courts in the US that have handled domestic violence cases. El Sayyid Nosair, the Egyptian that assasinated Rabbi Kahane, was accused of assualt by a women not his wife at a mosque in Pittsburgh. An Islamic Court handled the dispute and Nosair was not found guilty.

#105

The Culture of Death continues.

#106

What the f#@$?

Do you have a link on that?

Abo-hoo-hoo: And this picture of a child.

one

I always go to Church when there is gunfire coming from the Church. You can't let a little thing like a bullet keep you from worshipping.

More news concerning the "attack" on the "mosque" which killed 40 "people".

U.S. Hits Mosque Compound; 40 Said Killed

Marines waged a six-hour battle around the mosque with the militants holed up inside before a Cobra helicopter fired a Hellfire missile at the base of its minaret, and an F-16 dropped the bomb, said Marine Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne.

The fight began when a Marine vehicle was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade fired from the mosque, wounding five Marines, Byrne said. A large U.S. force converged on the mosque.

Reminds me of the scene at our local Catholic church each year whyen the bishop visits. The guy in the white cassock and skullcap looks a lot like a bishop, if one takes regional stylistic differences into account (our bishops were cassocks and skullcaps), and what Western eyes might mistake as an RPG launcher os obviously his miter.

#99 Jersey

I am getting fed up with this BS. I was under the impression that the U.S military had some pretty heavy firepower, yet I keep hearing about marines being pinned down for hours in these firefights.

I'm with you. And if we have to leave we should think about leaving with a big BANG!

#108 amir

It's in the book "Two Seconds Under the World" on page 113-114.

111 Helen

I always go to Church when there is gunfire coming from the Church. You can't let a little thing like a bullet keep you from worshipping.

I bet when you folks start to praying you guys are dead serious.

Sorry, I'm late to this discussion but very early this morning I read that the some of the fighters had run into that mosque that was hit. Those 40 who died were among the fighters. Not saying it's okay to hit a mosque but when it becomes an armed fort, then it's fair game.

In Europe lots of churches were destroyed on both sides during the Second World War. I'm through with treating all these mosques full of weapons and fighters with sanctity. If the gloves are truly off let's break off a piece and let the chips fall! We can apologize after we've won in a meaningful way--a way they understand and will be grateful that we didn't go further.

#115 axiom

I don't understand (and I don't have a book).
A woman in the US of A accuses a man (not her husband, though for me it doesn't matter) of assault.
Does she turn to the police? How does it get to a muslim court? Is it's decision binding? I'm astounded. Israel has religious courts, but I don't think they deal with assault.

Marines waged a six-hour battle around the mosque with the militants holed up inside before a Cobra helicopter fired a Hellfire missile at the base of its minaret, and an F-16 dropped the bomb, said Marine Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne.

Witnesses said the strike came as worshippers had gathered for afternoon prayers.

Does anyone else think there is something fishy about worshippers "gathering" for prayers in the middle of a 6 hour gun battle?

I still think Michael Moore is Muqtada al-Sadr. I mean Sadr thinks he is the mahdi of islam and Moore thinks he is the savior of the United States. They look alike , they say the same crazy crap, and they have a bunch of nuts that listen to them. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and walks like a duck, IT'S A DUCK.

it was reported that prior to calling air strikes on the mosque there was a two hour long firefight with terrorists positioned inside the mosque.

i personally think targeting of the mosque is the best news that came from Iraq lately. it shows to the savages that there is no place to hide and gives much needed reassurance to decent Iraqies

119 Californican aka paganinfidel 4/7/2004 12:01PM PST

Does anyone else think there is something fishy about worshippers "gathering" for prayers in the middle of a 6 hour gun battle?

No. Seems perfectly normal to me. Al Jazeera has picture of baby on it . Baby looks hurt.

I guess it's possible to believe some people would take their baby for a stroll in the middle of a gun battle between islamicist fundamentals and US marines.

The king called up his jet fighters
He said you better earn your pay
Drop your bombs between the minarets
Down the Casbah way

As soon as the shareef was
Chauffeured outta there
The jet pilots tuned to
The cockpit radio blare

As soon as the shareef was
Outta their hair
The jet pilots wailed

The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah

/Clash

The LLL should read more in the Geneva Conventions. Once armed guerrillas/militants move into a house of worship, hospital or civilian area, they, themselves make where ever they move a valid military target.

Is the "Mahdi Army" taking lessons from the palis? Hide amongst the civilians...

121 gagarin

1. re your comment. agreed. I noticed this tidbit in the Fox report:

In Ramadi, fighting was so intense that commanders went to the unit headquarters to pull people who wouldn't normally fight into the combat, military sources said.

...

Citizens remained in their homes during fighting there, the statement said. Several Iraqis called the coalition tip line to help identify, isolate and combat the insurgents, a U.S. military statement said.

Avgerage folk calling in tips is a sign of very good things to come.

2. your nic related to this guy?

A follow-up to my post 112

_ U.S. Marines in a fierce battle to pacify the Sunni Muslim stronghold of Fallujah fired a rocket and dropped a 500-pound, laser-guided bomb that hit a mosque compound, and witnesses said as many as 40 people were killed.Marine Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne said that he ordered the attack after his men came under fire from 30-40 insurgents inside and that militants left the compound in an ambulance and shot at U.S. troops. He said the coalition was in control of about 25 percent of the city.

Such lovely people.

Operation Mosque Destruction - 2 down, x to go!

I find it really odd that people would go worship in the middle of combat myself. I think the US Forces made it clear that all people on Fallujah were suppose to remain indoors during this action?

#123 Thousand Sons 4/7/2004 12:18PM PST

good catch on the 'Clash' song, History playing out like 20 year old lyrics.

That F-16 Pilot just made history.

1LT Jane "Mosque Buster" Smith, USAF

122 River of Pearls

That's right, Allah wants you in the Mosque to pray, you can't do it in your home.

Of course, these folks might've believed the lying insurgents who told them they'd be safest there. Grrr.

119 Calif

Does anyone else think there is something fishy about worshippers "gathering" for prayers in the middle of a 6 hour gun battle?

Naw!! What would give anybody that idear?

Everyone keeps repeating 'the mosque was hit.' The mosque was not hit but the wall around it was.

I personally have no problem targeting their places of worship as they're using them as a places of refuge and fortified positions. This is not a police action where we're trying to contain a few criminals, this is, as they've called it, 'jihad' a holy war against the u.s.. Whether we like it or not, this is a new war, it has nothing to do with removing the old regime and we must fight it as such.

It appears the Marines did NOT hit the mosque.

"U.S. Marines observed anti-Coalition Forces today firing from the Haj Musheen Abdul Aziz al-Kubaysi mosque complex in Falluja," the Marines said in a statement. "In order to gain access to the compound housing the mosque, Marines used air support to breach a wall located several hundred yards away from the actual mosque structure."

#3 - Colt

Quite so. It took the deaths of five marines for the commanding officers to summon up enough anti-PC nerve to destroy the fortress and the worshippers inside.

Now they have to face the Washington Post, the NYT and the LA Times... Now THAT's scary.

Then there are the other secular wackos who'll bleat about how the US offended Islam...

[sigh]

I honestly cannot recall the last tome I took my Remington .270 to Sunday Mass. I do think it might be about time to slip the Star .380 into my pocket and begin carrying it on a more regular basis. Even Colorado is not quite as safe as we presume.

#129 abu hoo hoo:

Naw!! What would give anybody that idear?

Look, I grew up going to Catholic mass every Sunday, and I can definitely recall times when the priest would interrupt his homily to dash to the window and fire an RPG at a passing police car. So just lighten up on the peaceful Shiites, wouldja?

In the pic, they don't seem quite as happy as one would expect if one were about to have 72 virgins squirming all over one's body. I don't seem to recall reading if those were male or female virgins-on-order.
Oh well, they'll know soon enough. How come Western women sympathizers haven't protested against this obvious 'objectification of women' (again, that's an assumption).
If I said that that was what my heaven would be, I'd be sleeping out in the van...

Shock and Awe should be more than an occasional party trick. This should have been and should still be applied to each and every action that the military embarks upon.

Try to picture these dipshits with small arms just hanging out in the street with some real S&W raining down.

133 Occasional Reader

dang you and i must have been going to the same church. I plum forgot those incidents!

Sorry! LOL

Where do they get all those RPG's from?! I want one!

#133 Occasional Reader 4/7/2004 12:48PM PST

Look, I grew up going to Catholic mass every Sunday, and I can definitely recall times when the priest would interrupt his homily to dash to the window and fire an RPG at a passing police car. So just lighten up on the peaceful Shiites, wouldja?

You think that's bad, During Christmas, out priest used to set up fighting positions around the manger. Little did they know that the 'Drummer boy' was really a suicide bomber in disguise. Inside our Hymnals we each had a .38 the parishsioners could grab if things really got hot! Candles, what candles?, those are sticks of dynamite baby!

Heh, Reminds me of those mexican soap opera's where the priest was really some secret agent, armed to the hilt.

I am beginning to understand Iraqis. Saddam fills mass graves with their friends and their families and the UN steals their food in its oil for food program and their children go hungry and starve and die from no medicines from sickness and yet you hear not a peep from the Iraqi people. The United States delivers them from the evil dictator and US soldiers build schools for their children and they kill american soldiers. Oh yes I am beginning to see the truth about the Iraqis. And as the Man said "The Truth Shall Make You Free!

#138 John Gibbon:

Inside our Hymnals we each had

You had hymnals? Well, that's nice... I guess. We, on the other hand, had MISSILES.

Whoops, sorry, missals.

And, of course, there was the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch...

#140 Occasional Reader 4/7/2004 01:05PM PST

You know I was going to make a joke about the 'Missiles' or Missiletes' (sp). but I could not figure out the correct spelling. Pride before humor!

Rangers, fergit Rangers, we had Jesuits! And the Franciscans were the worst, they go after you with their bare hands since they could not afford the weapons

#139 riverofpearls - great post! Of course I "knew" all that but I'd never synthezied before.

They don't look like Presbyterians to me.

When they say "mosque", I think bunker, ammo dump, command and control, etc.

#97,

I don't think that there are any illusions about what's going on the mosques, but in addition to their current use, they are symbols. All other things being equal (which I'm not saying they are), it'll be easier on us in the long run if we figure out a way to do this thing WITHOUT blowing up their mosques.

#142 sorry, there should be "it" in front of "before" sigh.
But it's worse, I hit post before I finished my thought:

Is Iraq really a nation of masochists? Or are appearences deceiving?

#118 amir

Assaulting women is not a crime in Islam. Her driving or showing an ankle is a crime though. I hope that clears things up.

"No! No! You fire those after the second verse!"

Well, our choir were really the 40mm Bofors crew, you should have seen their reaction time!

#141 John Gibbon:

And the Franciscans were the worst

You mean the Jedi Knights, don't you? (They dressed up that way, anyhow.)

#130 Gary Bruce:

It appears the Marines did NOT hit the mosque.

I'm actually sorry to read that. I would have greatly preferred if the US military had obliterated the mosque, then when the usual suspects of the international press demanded an "apology", Gen. Sanchez or Kimmet had said, "we do not consider a building inhabited by armed, hostile people to be holy in any way, and we will fire on any such building in the future."

#144 The Bellman 4/7/2004 01:16PM PST

How else would you propose to dislodge hostile insurgents who are firing at you?

Parley? We aren't exactly dealing with the world best diplomats here

144

All other things being equal (which I'm not saying they are), it'll be easier on us in the long run if we figure out a way to do this thing WITHOUT blowing up their mosques.

How do you know this? Are you a mind reader?

You cannot 'know' that it won't totally demoralize them. It might give them the idea that God has abandoned them.

You don't know, I don't know.

What we do know is that they store weapons, they rally their troops, and they shoot at us from mosques.

And in my opinion that's enough of a reason to take them away from them.

War, jihad's a bitch.

#148 John Gibbon:

Well, our choir were really the 40mm Bofors crew

Hmm, your church must have been the one Wilfred Owen was writing about:

No mockeries for them from prayers or bells,
Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs,—
The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;
And bugles calling for them from sad shires.

Isn't this the time when Europe chimes in and volunteers to provide safe haven for the terrorists inside the Mosque like they did for the Palestinians? Maybe we can just evacuate all of Iraq into Europe. They seem to love them and they certainly deserve each other.

Silly Yanks, you ain't seen nothing. In the Church Of England they make you eat eel pies and bare their bad teeth at you after the service. Oh, how we cowered and cried. My old vicar is now rolling over all the jihadis in Kandahar with wicked, evil, and highly lethal tea and sympathy.

LOL - it's another "oooh, they hit a - gasp - mosque" moment. All this hand wringing calls for some Monty Python mockery (sorry, couldn't resist):

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
And you try and tell the young people of today that ... they won't believe you.

#142 realwest 4/7/2004 01:15PM PST

Is Iraq really a nation of masochists? Or are appearences deceiving

The problem really with this mess is not the iraqis, it is us. If we like Israel, would realize we are by ourselves and OUR interest precede other interest, and IF we could learn to not try to please the world's "view" we would not be in this mess. In other words if we had done what needed doing.

Ah, so it was a legal attack on the mosque.

That's great news; I'm sure the Iraqis will be satisfied with that explanation, and not one of them will be encouraged to take up arms because of it.

And of course, it's a great way to establish peace and democracy in that part of Iraq. Nothing wins the "hearts and minds" of Muslims like blowing up their Mosques.

Besides, who could possibly have predicted that such a thing would happen?

#156 Reality Check

#156:

I'm sure the Iraqis will be satisfied with that explanation, and not one of them will be encouraged to take up arms because of it.

Yes, and I'm sure if our troops had simply taken gunfire from mosques and done nothing about it, not one of the jihadis would have been encouraged to use mosques as military bases.

Besides, who could possibly have predicted that such a thing would happen?

Yep, leave it to that dumb chimp Bush to turn mosques into centers of violent hatred! That sort of thing never used to happen!

(asshat)

#127 John Gibbon

Thanks. I knew there was a reason that song was stuck in my head.

This whole thing illustrates the point I was trying to make on the "Merc" thread: If you want Geneva Convention protection, play by the rules. If you dont, then its open season. I know the world at large isnt ready to hear that, but hey.

"That F-16 Pilot just made history."

Jane Smith? Is this conjecture, or was it really a female pilot at the stick? If so, sweeet. What an incredible insult to the enemy, if true.

#156

Ill bet the Apache pilot who pulled the trigger predicted it. I only wish I could shake his hand and buy him a beer.

156

I'm sure the Iraqis will be satisfied with that explanation, and not one of them will be encouraged to take up arms because of it.

Yeah, like they are not being 'encouraged' to take up arms now.

What may very well earn the hearts and minds of the Iraqis is to wipe out gangs of thugs with RPGs, lead by idiot clerics, taking over their mosques, schools and hospitals.

I'm sure the Iraqis will be satisfied with that explanation, and not one of them will be encouraged to take up arms because of it

Yep, the Fallujans are peaceful types. Those Marine barbarians rudely interrupted their coffee hour and bake sale, and now we're finished.

Hearts and minds. In Falluja. Phooey.

#159 Thousand Sons 4/7/2004 01:46PM PST

Purely Conjecture! I do remember a while back seeing an article about some buff female A-10 pilot.

I was just Fantasizing

156

Those damned "hearts and minds". Hey I've got a great idea...how about they STOP PREACHING JIHAD FIRST!!

#156 Reality Check

So you're saying...If we let them dictate the rules of engagement...they'll really appreciate it and we can call the whole thing a silly misunderstanding?

Why, I had never thought of that!

I'm really going to have to think about this!

Speaking of hearts and minds, when are we going to start seeing some more jihadi hearts and minds all over the pavement in Falluja and Ramadi courtesy of the 1st expeditionary force USMC dammit!!!

#163 John Gibbon:

I was just Fantasizing

About buff female A-10 pilots... well, to each his own, I guess. Me, on the other hand, I'm gonna try to get reaganite to hook me up with the ravishingly cute Predator remote operator who was interviewed on a recent PBS piece about military technology. Her last name was Ortiz, don't recall the first name. She was gorgeous, articulate, and can take out a T-72 from 7,000 miles away... I'm in love.

Seems like the national media, in the past 24 hours, is framing the effort in Iraq as hardening along religious lines, like so: they -- the normal local citizens, being Islamic, will NEVER accept a Christian/American presence. Killings will continue as long as we are there. I served in Vietnam and although the driving force is much different, we would have never prevailed there. I think President Bush would be very wise to get us out now...better 500+ dead now than 2,000+ dead and still counting in 200X. Establish intel and then use preemptive force to take out probable trouble spots and specific individuals.

If we wish to have the hearts and minds of the people of Iraq and Fallujah in particular, then we have to target hearts and minds. Simple as that.

David Warren has agood article on Fallujah

[Link: www.davidwarrenonline.com...]

Since the Sunni freaks of Falluja are the cousins of the Sunni freaks who run Saudi Arabia, and singing more of the same peaceful Saudi hymns every day, let's review their attitude to mosques of, erm, the wrong type:

In 1924, when the Sauds took power, they conquered Medina and Mecca [and] demolished the majority of historical mosques and monuments in both Mecca and Medina at that time. They even destroyed between 500 and 600 of the mausolea belonging to the Prophet's companions, which dated back to the seventh century.

Yep, mosques are sooo sacred.

40 "worshippers" killed in a mosque? well, that's a start...

What is good for the United States, is not good for Israel.

This is just one of the tactics against terror used by the US, which has been condemned by the US when Israel did it.

#163 John Gibbon

Ahhh.

But what a nice dream, anyway.

Can you imagine what they would say if a woman pilot was responsible? It would blow their minds. Cant drive a car, can show your face in public in that culture. But in ours? Hellfire missle bustin'!

You've come a long way, baby.

/Virginia Slims

#167 Occasional Reader 'aka Wilfred' 4/7/2004 01:57PM PST

She was gorgeous, articulate, and can take out a T-72 from 7,000 miles away... I'm in love.

...you better not let here know what type of car you drive, AFTER you break up!

Vengence hath no fury like a woman scorned!

"Hearts and minds. In Falluja. Phooey."

Well, there's the rest of the country too you know. Something tells me they won't like having mosques bombed either.

You guys don't seem to want to acknowledge this: The objective of establishing peace and democracy in Iraq just went down the toilet.

IIRC, after having found out that the WMD justification was nonexistent, that was the only justification left for this invasion. Sure, we took out Saddam, but that's meaningless if we fail to replace him with something better.

So somebody, please, "tell me how this ends".

The only good thing to come out of this: George Bush's chance at a second term just went down the toilet too.

Enjoy your war, boys.

#168 Tim Eldred

I served in Vietnam and although the driving force is much different, we would have never prevailed there.

Wrong. The one target that would have broken the Viet-Cong was off-limits. It looks like, this time, the US is only slightly smarter.

As I recall, the U.S. Army took out the 1500 year old monastery at Monte Cassino in 1942 because they feared it was being used as an observation tower. Hitler screamed as did lots of others. But they seem to have gotten over it.

168

I served in Vietnam and although the driving force is much different, we would have never prevailed there.

If you actually served, then you gotta be getting up there in age. And there's no fool like an old fool.

From everything I've read the North Viet Namese were astonished when we stopped the B52 bombings, knowing they couldn't have held out much longer.

In any case, go take another hit of that good shit. By pulling out of Viet Nam, atleast two million died in Cambodia because of the power vacuum.

It astonishes me that people like you are still hanging in there, hoping for another forfeit.

168 Tim Eldred

Allow me to respectfully disagree. Getting out now would only re-enforce the impression that the US can be detered by enough casualties. If we don't get it right this time we will have to fight again under worse circumstances. I agree with Bill Whittles post yesterday that this is like the Battle of the Bulge, and the enemy is going for broke. As Maggie Thatcher would say, we can go wobbly now.
Thank you for serving your country Tim.

The objective of establishing peace and democracy in Iraq just went down the toilet.

Courtesy of Falluja and Sadr. The US is working on both. On behalf of the Iraqi people as a whole, who do not want these freaks in charge.

Hey! Look! The Marines are letting themseves get slaughtered cos they won't hit a mosque! Oh, how we love them now!

Get a clue. In these circumstances, anybody who is worried about mosques is a lost cause anyway.

"Worshippers". Still lovin' that.

#175 Reality Check

Enjoy your war, boys.

Nope. Saddam's. Just trying to end the damn thing.

#175 Reality Check

#175 Reality Check

The objective of establishing peace and democracy in Iraq just went down the toilet.

My, that is some crystal ball you have. Mind telling me who is going to win the next World Series? I'd like to place some bets.

Mosques have always been places to wage war from. In the West, I regard mosques as enemy forts; in these they plan, give support to Jihadis, finances and other material support. At the same time, muslims demand that that is infidel society give mosques the status of a religious sanctuary. Fortunately, in England anyway, places of worship have never been regarded as places of sanctuary. Look what happened to Thomas Beckett.

Terrorists trying to pull a "Spain" with Thailand:

Thailand's embassy in Sweden received a letter threatening terrorist attacks in the Southeast Asian country if it does not pull its 450 military personnel out of Iraq, the Thai Foreign Ministry in Bangkok said Wednesday.

From WaPo.

I'd say that there are a helluva lot of Iraqis who "worry about mosques". If they are all lost causes, then so is your pipe dream of democracy in Iraq.

Which is what people like me were trying to tell you months before the invasion.

Hey man, I'm not a liberal. I'm a realist. Liberals are naive and idealistic. And so is anyone who thinks we have a chance in hell of establishing democracy in Iraq.

#175 Surreality Check:

Sure, we took out Saddam, but that's meaningless if we fail to replace him with something better.

Couldn't agree more! Which is why it's imperative to crush the islamists and Ba'athists who are trying to drag Iraq back into despotism. I'm glad to see you're fully on board with this! Don't forget to pull the lever for "Bush/Cheney" in November.

No, not your "lever", I meant the one in the voting booth.

I know how it ends. But im not telling you.

Arab culture only understands force and the will to use it. The more Arabs are slaughtered in the uprising (especially women and kids), the more mosques are blown up, the more imams and mullah are killed, the more the rest of Iraq will love Americans - and democracy.

Are you for real? If so, that is the most insane thing I have ever read in my life.

#189 Reality Check

175 Escape from Reality

You guys don't seem to want to acknowledge this: The objective of establishing peace and democracy in Iraq just went down the toilet.

That's a load of shiite. The majority of Iraqis are looking for a strong, secular Iraq, and the last thing 90+% of them want is a mullacracy run out of Iran. They're just waiting for us to stomp on al-Sadr.

No one knows where it is all heading. If this uprising is not crushed immediately and those militia not captured then there is no hope at all. If you even consider negotiations or appeasement, then we are all doomed.

186

Hey man, I'm not a liberal. I'm a realist. Liberals are naive and idealistic. And so is anyone who thinks we have a chance in hell of establishing democracy in Iraq.

What do you think the chances are that we can establish self rule in Japan or Germany?

Or what are the chances of it occuring in the former satelites of the soviet (now defunct) empire?

You need to update your world view a decade or two.

I'm sure you're not a liberal, but all your friends are, you're the radical of the group.

Reality check -- I'd bet anything that virtually all irqis have no use for the al-Sadrs and his murderous brownshirts. the only thing that will prevent democracy in Iraq is if we allow the murderers to follow in the footsteps of the PLO abd kill all of their opponents.

You missed the 4 justifications for was:
1. Iraq was violating the terms of a cease-fire with the United States.
2. Saddam Hussein was a murderous tyrant, and the people needed and wanted freedo,m.
3. The baathist regime was in league with terrorists which has been amply proved in the last year.
4. WMD-- which we shall see about.

Any one of the four was adequate reason.

For reality check--Have some pride in freedom-loving peoples, and stop rooting for thugs.

#29 Dan
About time.

Yes.

You can't fight an urban war when you have to call lawyers before you can pull hte trigger.

But first you have to kill all the lawyers.

About time.

#193 levi from queens: supplementing your response to the reality-challenged:

4. WMD-- which we shall see about.

To which I would add: "Go and actually read the frickkin' Kay report, and then we can talk about WMDs." (Almost invariably, the "there were no WMDs!" crowd have never thought to read what that report actually says.)

Iraqis are lost causes? Really?

186 Needs a History Check

Hey man, I'm not a liberal. I'm a realist. Liberals are naive and idealistic. And so is anyone who thinks we have a chance in hell of establishing democracy in Iraq.

Folks were saying the same thing about the Marshall Plan, especially VP Wallace. They were wrong.

#186 RC

Hey man, I'm not a liberal. I'm a realist. Liberals are naive and idealistic. And so is anyone who thinks we have a chance in hell of establishing democracy in Iraq.

Micahel Ledeen writes:

To those who say that democracy cannot be introduced in the Muslim Middle East, where it has never existed, there is an easy answer: If that were true, then there would be no democracy at all, since tyranny is older than democracy, and oppression has been far more common than freedom for most of human history. We all lived under tyranny before we became free; freedom has had to be wrested from the hands of kings, caliphs and nobles, and imams and priests — and it has invariably been a tough battle. But that is quite different from saying it cannot be done at all.

Failure is not an option.

Any of you guys look at the byline of the particular "40 dead " article?

Something fishy about the names?

You don't supoose there might be some religious/ethnic bias by the reporters, do you?

Even more bias than from the normal lefties?

191 Chap, etc: "The majority of Iraqis are looking for a strong, secular Iraq"

Our only hope is that you're right about that, but is there any really good reason to believe that it's true?

Setting aside focus-tested platitudes about how Iraqis are just like us and value liberalism just as much as we do, the facts on the ground seem to suggest that at least a significant minority of Iraqis would prefer a Shari'a theocracy.

What if most Iraqis don't want a liberal democracy? How fucked are we then?

Y'all smoke this shit to escape reality. Let me tell you something. I am reality.

#200 Laertes

What if most Iraqis don't want a liberal democracy? How fucked are we then?

Most Iraqis don't care about a liberal democracy. What they want is security first, freedom second. Show them that they can have that in a liberal democracy, and they'll support it. Show them that democracy means not being able to strike thugs because they're in a mosque, and they'll want Saddam back. That's why force and the will to use it are important - because in the Arab mindset, democracy means weakness, and weakness means no security.

Somebody might have made this point already, but I must have heard or read a half dozen military commentators over the past few days say that one of the biggest mistakes we can make in fighting an enemy who is of a different culture is to assume that their sensibilities and reactions are the same as ours. Our hyperconcern for avoiding damage to mosques and other cultural sacred cows is not understood by these people as an attempt to make war more humane or as respect for their institutions and beliefs, but as weakness that encourages more attacks. As Stephen Den Beste wrote on 21 Sept 2002, "People who try to be sensitive in a war have a tendency to die, and to take their nations with them."

What if most Iraqis don't want a liberal democracy? How fucked are we then?

The really important questions is: are we capable and willing to keep Muslims in general and Arabs in particular out of the West.

RoPMA!

Children under 15 must not participate in hostilities and must not be recruited into the armed forces. (Protocol I, Art. 77, Sec. 2; Protocol II, Art. 4, Sec. 3C)

For you wargasm addicts, you can find some pics of dead Falluja warriors here:

[Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

202 Mr Pol

Most Iraqis don't care about a liberal democracy. What they want is security first, freedom second. Show them that they can have that in a liberal democracy, and they'll support it.

That's what I meant by "strong, secular Iraq". Of course these folks are nationalists. But they also want freedom...from Saddam, from Mullahs, and ultimately, from US occupation. But they're willing to put up with the last one if it means they're protected from the first two.

Regarding the mindset.

According to the book 'End to Evil', people in the middle east viewed Saddam as a winner, because he still maintained power. He was viewed as someone who went up against the great Satan and survived.

So this is pretty black and white.

Existence means victory, anihilation means defeat. - to the surviving onlookers.

This is fairly easy to understand.

Those who want to negotiate or chit chat about things are only prolonging the misery, for both sides.

And really, look at how the enemy spins, and spins things to his advantage. Anihilation prevents all spin.

Re Bombing Mosques: Keep your eyes on the ball. The issue here isn't whether the presence of enemy soldiers in a mosque justifies attacking it. The issue isn't whether anyone has any right to complain about bombing a mosque that's being used as a sniper's nest.

(It does, and they don't, but that doesn't matter.)

The fact is that bombing a mosque has political consequences, and as much as one might wish that it didn't, and as well-prepared as one might be to argue that it shouldn't, it does. It alienates friends, and it energizes and creates enemies.

It also saves lives on our side.

However, alienating friends and energizing enemies also costs lives on our side, ultimately.

It does us no good to save five soldiers by bombing a mosque when said bombing creates new enemies that then kill ten soldiers.

Is that what it does? I don't know. I suspect that professional soldiers will tend to err on the side of showing too little restraint, and experts on arab culture will err on the side of showing too much.

My point here simply is this: Showing that it's morally justifiable to target mosques doesn't address the question of whether it's strategically justifiable to do so.

#201

Great!

"Barnes Shoots Elias"

Interesting article by Jonathan Foreman on Falluja and consquences.

#209 Laertes:

Showing that it's morally justifiable to target mosques doesn't address the question of whether it's strategically justifiable to do so.

Fair enough, but I think Mr. Pol and others have spoken to that point. Demonstrating weakness to this enemy is bad strategy.

#206 Canuckistan

I've always found Al-Jazeera to be a reliable and unbiased source of information. The words 'AL JAZEERA EXCLUSIVE' emblazoned in blood red across every image is testament to the commitment of the in-no-way extremist station to objective and unsensational reporting.

/sarcasm

Seriously though - how can anyone, even depraved Islamists, live with themselves after using children as human shields in this way? It's incomprehensible.

#207 RoP really chappin' my hide

209 Laertes

However, alienating friends and energizing enemies also costs lives on our side, ultimately.

I understand this, but it's within the larger context. Militant Islam will. not. stop. until it's sacred cows have bled enough. I hate jihadis for bringing this upon the world, because I'd like nothing better than to see all our troops home now, for all parties to be content living in their own little corners of the world. But they will not have it this way, they insist on war. War results in ugly, inconveivable losses, perhaps one day the loss of even my own life. Their vision of the world has brought this upon me and my country.

So...we're living 1942 all over again, only this time with a self-destructive lack of willpower. This next decade at least promises to be VERY dicey, and let me guarantee you that whenever we withdraw, the enemy advances.

Once bombing mosques becomes as common as Islamists bombing other things, it will hardly be noticed that they are missing. FOAD Canuckistan, you are are late for prayer and you dont want to miss your chance for a place in paradise do you?

#209 Laertes

The fact is that bombing a mosque has political consequences, and as much as one might wish that it didn't, and as well-prepared as one might be to argue that it shouldn't, it does. It alienates friends, and it energizes and creates enemies.

Yes, it does have political consequences: it shows potential enemies that they have to fear your wrath, and shows your friends you're willing to use strength to protect yourself - which means maybe you'll do it to help them, too. In other words, it reassures friends, and scares potential enemies into neutrality.

#210

"the only one that can kill barnes, is BARNES"

seriously tho- has it occurred to any of the blockhead viewers of Al Jizzera that maybe, JUST MAYBE the kids were deliberately placed into the line of fire? If thats the case- who is at fault?

213 Mr Pol

This is something that will change if the US succeeds, but even in that case, it'll take some time.

D@mn straight it'll take time. We've been working with the Japanese for 60 years and they still think of us as "crazy gaijin". We're in for doozy of a century, with plenty of setbacks like this week.

#217 Lt. Barnes

#216 Mr Pol: I wish I was as sure of anything as you are of everything.

What are these facts, of which you claim to have so many, that show that bombing mosques will be a net political gain? I'd very much like to believe that it will be, and you seem to be certain. What do you know that I don't?

You can, I assume, do better than insulting hand-waving?

#183 RIP Ford

If he says the Cubs, you know he is FOS.

From the NYT, an illuminating article:
Anxious Moments in Grip of an Outlaw Iraqi Militia.
It describes what was going on within and withiot the mosque in which Sadr was holed.

ambulances unloaded boxes of medical supplies, labeled in English as containing bandages, cotton balls and syringes. Some were marked with Christian inscriptions in English, suggesting that they originally came from Christian medical charities operating in Iraq.
Vehicles came and went, among them white and blue patrol cars and pickup trucks supplied by the United States to Iraq's new American-trained police force, filled with some of the heavily armed militiamen who took control of Kufa on Sunday.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

This is similar to the situation in Aden in the sixties. The same cast of characters and the same old villainy. Arab police trusted by the British, actually helping the Jihadis. Then in Aden, as now in Iraq, terrorists using willing civilians as human shields while attacking British/coalition soldiers or lobbing grenades and then running into mosques. Same cast, different times. In each case, relying on Western reluctance to cross certain lines.

Fortunately the Brits posted a battalion commander, Lt-Col Mitchell, who knew how to handle matters. Lt-Col Mitchell handling of Arab terrorism is a classic, and his tactics should have been studied by all coalition commanders, before they headed off to Iraq. It really is a fascinating read.

[Link: www.britains-smallwars.com...]

With a very limited force and none of the high tech wizardry available to coalition troops, Lt-Col Mitchell made Yemeni Arabs go in fear of even taking a sideways glance at the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

This whole human shield thing troubles me. The US always says that they're more civilized, and occupy a higher moral plane than damn swarthy Iraqis. Yet, you have situations where an American sees that human shields are being used, and they pull the trigger and blow away the entire lot of them.

I just don't see that type of behavior as being "morally superior". For me, an example of moral superiority would be a soldier saying, "Hey, that sniper is shooting at me, but he has his wife and two kids with him... I think I'll either retreat or find a different way of dealing with this."

The idea of "punishing" the fighters by blowing away their wife and kids is revolting to me... it's barbaric in fact.

#220 Laertes

Mosques are not the same as churchs!

If combatants are using them for shelter...so be it...that shelter should be utterly destroyed...

#223 Canuckistan (an apt nic)

I just don't see that type of behavior as being "morally superior". For me, an example of moral superiority would be a soldier saying, "Hey, that sniper is shooting at me, but he has his wife and two kids with him... I think I'll either retreat or find a different way of dealing with this."

Then your enemy realises this, and next time brings more kids, maybe sets up an artillery piece in a crowded nursery, uses a hospital as an ammo depot.

Then what? There are only so many ways to handle such a situation, and your enemy will figure out how to stop you "finding a different way of dealing with this."

That leaves "retreat".

Good plan.

#222 DP

223

You seem to draw a complete blank out on judging a guy who hides behind women and children.

It's like you have half a mind.

#210

"the only one that can kill barnes, is BARNES"

seriously tho- has it occurred to any of the blockhead viewers of Al Jizzera that maybe, JUST MAYBE the kids were deliberately placed into the line of fire? If thats the case- who is at fault?

Like I asked. What mama takes her baby for a stroll while the islam fanatics are making war on US marines? I think most of these nuts are unfit parents. I mean honestly. Bullets are flying, bombs are exploding, schrapnel (sp?) is flying thorough the air and it's time to take baby outside for fresh air? Yes they were using their kids and they need to be called on it. Like Golda Mier said. "There will be peace in the mid east when arabs love their kids more than they hate us." They are so filled with hate they do not even love their own children. Someone posted a link to a pic of a kid no more than 12 years old waving a gun and shouting hate in the crowd with the rest of them. Just lets you know what his mama has been teaching him. My kids were playing ball and goofing off wioth their friends at this age. And that is because I made a good child hood for them. These kids pop out of their mama hating and wanting to kill. And if they killed all the jews and all the americans they would find someone else to hate. There hearts are so filled with hate there is no room for any kind of love. They HATE everybody even their selves.

#226 Colt

Check this out.

#220, Laertes. Mr pol is sure of his facts because they are correct and he knows his shit. Some people are still trying to get their shit together, others dont know shit and some dont give a shit.

#230 RIP Ford

Thanks.

228

You seem to draw a complete blank out on judging a guy who hides behind women and children.

That guy deserves to die... but do his wife and kids also deserve to die?

And from the same NYT article, an Iraqi has this to say about liberation from Saddam

It was God who finished Saddam, not the Americans," he said. "The Americans broke all their promises to us, and they have brought their infidel beliefs to Iraq. We hate them, and they are worse than Saddam."

This is what I was sure would happen long before the Iraqi war and posted as such on LGF. Muslims will never be grateful to an Infidel. If any good happens to them, then it is the will of allah; any downside is the fault of the infidel.

What the US has to do to win properly and effectively, the US just cannot do, as it is constrained by what America is. America is a decent country with, for the most part, decent people. What the US could do is to sub-contract or outsource the Iraq job to the Russians. The Western media does not care what the Russians are doing in Chechnya and will care even less for Iraq. It would be much cheaper and the job will get done. Oh well, just a suggestion.

#223 Canuckistan 4/7/2004 03:16PM PST

Have you read Mark Bowden's "Blackhawk Down"?

The situation you describe does not match how these people are using human shields.

Its not his wife and kids that are out there fighting with him on a rooftop. Its some kid he grabbed to throw in front of him take the bullets for him. They have little regard for who they use as human shields.

Really, don't be that naive!

Laertes:
I'm afraid that Mr. Pol has history on his side. You can speculate endlessly about the bottom line and about how much taking out mosques might "ultimately" cost. But you really have no idea. Plotting worst case scenarios is not the answer, especially when you can offer no facts to back up your predictions. I guess you and I just have different ideas about what incentives appeal to the Iraqis. Is your belief in the terrible consequences that will follow taking the battle to the enemy on whatever ground he chooses based on the notion that we should just get out now? Because I can see no other basis for practicing the restraint you seem to advocate.

#233 Canuckistan:

That guy deserves to die... but do his wife and kids also deserve to die?

Yup. Absolutely. Without question.

#232 Colt

No worries.

#233 Canuckistan

Maybe, maybe not. But if they don't, you will lose more men, and perhaps the whole frickin' war.

Are you prepared to make that sacrifice?

#233

#235 John Gibbon

Laertes
That guy deserves to die... but do his wife and kids also deserve to die?

Yup. Islam loves human sacrifice. Allah is thirsty for their blood. They are being used as human shields to sucker dopes like you. If that's the way Islamics want to fight us, then bring it on.

Well Charles, it looks like you're getting the "Jihadi flypaper" you wanted in Iraq. Let's hope the U.S. armed forces AND the U.S. politicians are up to the task we face. If we prevail, maybe we'll have broken the back of radical Islam, or at least crippled it.

#237 BH

Yup. Absolutely. Without question.

You forgot to add "USA! USA!" at the end there.

So much for the illusion that Americans are more civilized.

I have no sympathies for the parents of these children. They serve a religion and mullahs or whatever they are called who demand their children be sacrificed. This is paganism. And it is not a new thing. Ancient history is full of cultures who sacrificed their children for their "god" or "gods". Let us at least be honest and call this thing what it is. If anyone has any sympathy it should be for parents of children who are murdered by these people in the name of their "god" or "gods. Like the parents of the children who died on those planes on 911 or in the world trade center or Israel's children's parents whose children are blown all to pieces because they were in the wrong place when a nut decided to die a martyed death so he could get his sexual fantasies fulfilled.

#244

#233 Canuckistan 4/7/2004 03:25PM PST

228

You seem to draw a complete blank out on judging a guy who hides behind women and children.

That guy deserves to die... but do his wife and kids also deserve to die?

For the hostages it's not a question of 'deserving' to die. No they don't deserve to die.

But if they die, their death is the fault the guy holding them up as shields.

It's appalling that you cannot properly assign blame in this instance.

It's a selective focus that blackens you morally. Because you enable the guy to grab another kid the next time if he escapes.

It's really sickening. You sicken me.

#244 Canuckistan:

You make a lot of assumption in two short sentences, Nucky.

#233 Canuckistan
___
You are just a mealy mouthed coward who crumples in confusion when confronted with Jihad... war done Islamic style. You are in awe of those fucks who are gunning for our soldiers.

So in awe that when this Islamic uses his wife and children as human shields you figure he is morally superior to you over in Canukistan. While all I see is a blood thirsty savage.

Just a passing thought:

One of the things that LGFers have not noticed is that Muslims hardly ever deploy women and children, when facing Muslim police or an invading Muslim army. They also dont take sanctuary in a mosque so readily. One would have expected such to be the case, if for no other reason that the invading Muslim army would have even greater respect for the sanctity of a mosque then an infidel army.

Wonder why that is.

#216 Mr. Pol; Is your middle name "Genghis?" Killing a lot of people and blowing up a lot of things to invoke terror is a tactic worthy of Saddam Hussein. In a sense it "worked," as did Stalin and Hitler's version. Is that what you want?

#244 Canukistan

So much for the illusion that Americans are more civilized.

"Who ya gonna call? ILLUSION BUSTERS!!"

Pathetic.

#244 Canuckistan

So much for the illusion that Americans are more civilized.

Some of us are willing to duck beneath your moral sensibilities to stay alive.

#244 Canuckistan 4/7/2004 03:34PM PST

So who do you think has the moral higher ground, a soldier who has been trained to avoid civilian casualties or an insurgent who willingly endangers a civilian by using them as a human shield?

Your ball, I'll wait for your answer?

It seems like #206 Canuckistan is trying to make us feel guilty. Well it isn't going to work Canuck.

The inhuman scum that we are fighting surround themselves with civilians just so pissants like you can write about how Iraq was better under the boot of Saddam Hussein.

I know you are rooting for the U.S. to fail so why don't you just drop the pretend neutrality and announce you are in league with these ghouls.

If we all burned a mosque a day then the world would soon become a better place, so long as the cult preachers are destroyed with their cult offices. I was going to suggest turning them into pig farms, but they are pig farms already.

You forgot to add "USA! USA!" at the end there. So much for the illusion that Americans are more civilized.

Being a blowhard Canadian coward like you does not equal being civilized

#251 Gordon

The Middle East is a fucked up place - things work there that would not work elsewhere, and history bears that out. So you either work that out, or spend the rest of your life flinching everytime you hear the name of a building - or a city - that used to exist before the jihadis blew it up.

Cox & Forkum say it all:

[Link: www.coxandforkum.com...]

Charles, just in case you didn't notice, #256 is an example of the hate speech you are criticized for on this site.

Just thought you might want to know...

Possible caption:

"Tired of Abdullah taking your firepower by mistake at the party?

Tired of recalibrating your Allah-gun after Khalid has accidentally taken it?

Tired of their cooties on your device?

Tire no more!

These colorful RPG Charms® are perfect for any Jihadist occasion: War against infidels! Insurrection! Weddings! Clitorectomies!

Available at finer stores and mosques today!"

#251 Gordon

Canuckistan! where are you?

Answer my question in #254, or don't show your face in here again!

#260 Gordon:

I agree. My bet is that transferthem is a LLL troll posting hateful spew in order to have something to go "see! see! hate speech!".

#251 Gordon

Caught on the "LLL flypaper" are we? Funny, you seem sane enough at first, then you go and say something dumb like we're "invoking taerror" in Iraq. Which of course makes us no different that Saddam...or Hitler or Stalin for that matter. You happen to remember who defeated the last-named chaps and the ideologies they represented? Righto, Gordo. It was us! Did we cause people to feel terrified along the way? No doubt? Does that make us the moral equivalent of these tyrants? Bzzz. Sorry, Hans you got that one wrong.

The entire world has let this bunch of murderers get away with too much. I think it is time they got called on the things they do in the name of their "god." Like killing other people's children or even killing their own. And it works when we call them on it. After the picture of the young boy with the bombs strapped to him went around the world I read several muslim writers having to defend this. I might add they could not. So they resorted to having to say arabs love their children like other people love theirs. Imagine what it must have meant to them to have to take this amazing stance. I know I love my children and I believe other people love their children. But I do not believe muslims love their own children. If they did why haven't muslim leaders condemened this use of children as shields? They still did not get IT.

#263 John Gibbon

I'm still waiting for a response to #226...

Hey, don't treat canuckistan too bad. He reads al Jazeera, so you know he is right!

Let's sample tonight's reporting from al Jihad:

"An ambulance carrying casualties was attacked on its way to the medical centre."

No reporting of this elsewhere, but never mind. If it did happen - gasp - the Islamists don't really use ambulances to transport bombs and fighters, do they? LOL!

everybody walking in the streets of Falluja is now becoming a target

Uh huh. That's why US forces took out a frikkin' wall from the air (talk about precise).

"They are attacking residential neighbourhoods," he said as US warplanes swooped over the area and fired rockets. Intense gunfire could be heard from the streets.

Couldn't be the same "residential" streets of charred corpses fame, where Neighbourhood Watch is guys with AKs and RPGs, could it? Nah. Evil Americans, attacking wholly innocent "residential neighbourhoods" again.

"The residents of Falluja are asking 'where is the (US-appointed) Iraqi Governing Council?'," said the visibily shaken correspondent. "They are asking why the Iraqis are not protecting them."

Hmm. Goose? Gander? Saint Saddam of the Sunni Triangle? Aww, you were so lovable for so long, Falluja, and now your friends forsake you.

An Aljazeera crew, including cameramen Layf Muftaq and Hasan Walid, sound engineer Sayf al-Din and correspondent Hamid Hadid, are the only media personnel inside the town.

Really? Only al Jihad is left in town? How funny. Must be a coincidence.

#263 John Gibbon
#267 Colt

I won't - I'm too barbaric for him to even consider conversing with.

#267 Colt 4/7/2004 03:54PM PST

Hows the weather in england? Still looking forward to the big move?

#271 John Gibbon

Patchy. Sunny, then rainy. April showers... :-)

Still looking forward to the big move?

Huh?

Canuckistan is bracing for this: dhimmitude in Canada.

#270 Colt

The Religion of RPGs™ ?

#272 Colt 4/7/2004 04:00PM PST

Don't mean to confuse ya, I thought you picked up an internship this summer...

#275 The_New_Guy

The Religion of RPGs™ ?

Yup

#274 Mr Pol

They eat meat but protest killing cows, and don't see the hypocrisy.

I was thinking about that when I saw some British soldiers at the train station recently. I don't know where they were going, but they were carrying a hell of a lot of kit. It occured to me that they in the US, at least one person would go up and thank them - there is still that appreciation for military service.

Not here. Here, they just get dirty looks. Soldiering is considered a dirty task, and to some extent it is. But people here have gone in to denial, they've forgotten it's necessary. They're enjoying freedom because of the guys who go off to fight, and they hate them for it.

#251 Gordon,

Take a walk over to Winds of Change - in particular this section - Furthering the Conversation: Overriding the Rules of War

It's an interesting discussion that upon reading it, I remembered having in one of my classes in college xx years ago. It was brought up there as part of a discussion on use of force - which is key to the discussion on using force on mosques.

The post says -

This argument says: sometimes it is right to decide an emergency exists which requires us to do things we otherwise judge to be illegal and wrong. Do them we must, if the risk is sufficiently great and sufficiently immediate. But we should never kid ourselves that they were right - just that they were necessary.

Others have covered the legal reasons as to why mosques used as these apparently were lose their special protections. The commanders on the scene and their superiors felt that the above conclusion probably also applied.

But the other aspect of this is - does our enemy give the rules of war, and the use of force the same thought and consideration when they determine targets?

Who really defiled the mosques?

What's your viewpoint of the argument on the use of force?

OT: John Effin' Kerry provides the LLL and/or Al-Sadr talking points:

Since I fought in Vietnam, I have not seen an arrogance in our foreign policy like this.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Did anyone here know he fought in Vietnam? Wow, I may have to change my vote now that I know he's a veteran. I used to think he was just a moral simp who altered his positions in whichever way the wind blew.

Of course, he also asked

Where are the people with the flowers, throwing them in the streets, welcoming the American liberators the way Dick Cheney said they would be?

They were there, but of course that makes poor footage in the media. Where did I read that most florists in Baghdad sold out of stock right after the military arrived? I hope that wasn't an urban legend.

#276 John Gibbon

It's not looking as promising as it was. From "almost certainly" to "we'll see". :-(

There is much ado about hate speech today but I feel that hate acts are far worse and by a large measure. The speech that is deemed of the 'hate' kind in LGF, is really a response to acts of hate perpetrated by fanatic Muslims all over the world against Infidels, in what they believe to ordained by their religion. In this context, hate speech is really quite a mild response. I feel that context has to be taken into account. No speech or act can be judged as free standing. For instance I have nothing but contempt for Nazis and any language I may use to describe their vile acts in Germany in WWII, could be deemed hate speech. But surely reasonableness should dictate otherwise.

#260 Gordon 4/7/2004 03:43PM

Charles, just in case you didn't notice, #256 is an example of the hate speech you are criticized for on this site.

Exactly what is this? That's your answer to this debate about muslims using their children as shields? I really expected better from an intelligent person. But all I got was a tattle tell. What a piece of work. No answer to the problem of muslims using children as shields in battle or war? Surely you have some enlightened answer to this problem for the unwashed masses?

We are fighting a war. When the enemy uses their civilians to kill our soldiers, why should our soldiers show more respect toward their civilians than they do? I'm sorry, but if the choice is between the life of a Coalition Soldier and that of a civilian being used as a shield by the Enemy, I choose the life of a Coalition Soldier.

278 Colt 4/7/2004 04:10PM PST

Not here. Here, they just get dirty looks. Soldiering is considered a dirty task, and to some extent it is.

This from the people who had some of the greatest soldiers in history. William Shakespeare's "Band of Brothers" descendants. So sad. It makes me cry.