God Bless the United States Marines.

hoo ah!

The Fallujahans are fired up and ready for a fight (or so they think).

Oh please, please let them continue thinking they are ready to take on the USMC.

God bless this brave Marine. Good luck and happy hunting.

God bless our troops (and get them out of Europe)!

I have no doubts about the Corp. The greatest fighting organization in the world.

Why do Americans always talk of 'good guys' and 'bad guys' and they are only ever the 'good guys'. Are Americans always right? Just a thought.

Good luck USMC. I pray for a sucessful mission.

I wish this and all young soldiers fighting this war saftey and success on thier mission.

My prayers are with them and their families.

Where do we get such men?

Lighten up , FRANCIS. And STFU.

G*d bless them !!!

I’m hoping they stay and fight.

This is the attitude that the muslims will never have.
Godspeed Warriors !!!

One, POTUS (President of the United States) has given us the green light to do whatever we needed to do to win this thing so we have that going for us.

About time. it's all this "measured response" nonsense that gets us into these situations in the first place.

A lot of terrorists and foreign fighters are holed up in Fallujah. It has been a sanctuary for them. If they have not left town they are going to die. I’m hoping they stay and fight.

You gotta love that esprit d'corp (pardon my French)! Happy hunting, soldier.

It always amazes me how these Islamofascist nutballs underestimate our troops. It's like they actually believe their own propaganda or something, all that nonsense about how Allah or "the Mahdi" are magically going to grant them victory. Yeah, well, Allah apparently hasn't tangled with the USMC recently.

Um, Francis, as a rule, people that fight while hiding among women and children, and fire from the supposed sanctity of houses of worship (not to mention people that desecrate bodies, or favor suicide bombings of civilian targets) qualify as bad guys.

Unless one is an amoral a$$hat like you.

The Marine Corps will either reaffirm its place in history as one of the greatest fighting organizations in the world or we will die trying.

... and this was in question, when?

Obviously, this soldier does not represent the majority who hate Buhs for sending him to Iraq for the chickenhawk neo-con Kabbalist cabal's war games.

I support our troops.

/LLL

Francis, the US doesn't use women and children as human shields. These terrorists do. That should be enough for you to digest.

#6 Francis Bacon

Of course Americans aren't ALWAYS the good guys. Especially if you wish the destruction of western civilization, then they are the bad guys. Now go pound your head on the ground five times today and repeat to yourself "I'm a good little jihadi".

#6 Francis Bacon

Are Americans always right? Just a thought.

Save the faux "enlightened philosophising" for someone who'll actually buy into your nonsense. If you can't figure out who the good guys and the bad guys are in this thing, then you need to head on down to the surplus store and buy yourself a new moral compass.

Charles, I think Reuters scooped you on this.

Here's their quote from this email:

"We cannot kill a lot of innocent folks...in Fallujah).

There will be plenty of bloodshed...The Fallujahans are fired up and ready for a fight...

The Marine Corps will...die trying. I’m nervous...the war in Iraq...the length of the war on terror... I’m praying..."

satire

Are Americans always right? Just a thought.

YES.

#6

I should gaze, but the difference between you little piece of sh^t and the words of that Gentleman in his letter is so striking that I like to enlighten here how nothing you are, not even existent, undermineral.

We have to find a way to kill the bad guys only.

Sheer idiocy. Who's the PC asshole that ordered this? S/he must be fired.

My friends wonder why I want to join the Corps when I graduate from college this summer. I will save this and hand it to them from now on.

That would be "backslash satire".

Oh my.
Highlight of course, not "enlighten".

/where did I put my mind ???

The Marines totally ROCK!!

Godspeed USMC!!

#6 Francis Bacon

Why do Americans always talk of 'good guys' and 'bad guys' and they are only ever the 'good guys'.

Because in the current war against militant Islam, its true. OBL and his ilk are the bad guys. Muqtada Sadr is one of the bad guys. The incomparably brave men and women who have dedicated themselves to hunting them down are the good guys.

Are Americans always right? Just a thought.

Not hardly. But considerably more right than the Islamofacsists.

Why must we sending in brave Marines to do the work bombs could do? Why are we trading the lives of our Marines for the lives of the Fallujahians?

Level any area that shoots at the Marines then send them in, not before.

From the header:

Does the USMC use MAJORs (0-4) as Rifle Company Commanders?

I mean I support this guy's letter and all but, I'm doubting he's actually a Rifle Company Commander. That's usually a Captain (0-3).

semper fidelis.

God Bless the USA and God Bless the U.S. Marines.

The U.S. Marines have a secret weapon that the islamikazes will never have, get or understand. They have HONOR.

Fallujah will make a nice new victory ribbon on thier battle standard.

Bacon, good name selection. You are a pig.

This is hard for me as an ex-army guy to have to say,
but "God bless the United States Marines!"

Mr Pol, the Marine said that they had a to find a way. Not that they wouldn't do what they needed to do if it was necessary. Every soldier wants that bullet with the "silver bullet", which will ignore civilians and kill only the bad guys. Don't forget:

One, POTUS (President of the United States) has given us the green light to do whatever we needed to do to win this thing so we have that going for us

Thanks, Charles, for posting this. It brought tears to my eyes. This young man makes me proud to be an American. I just came across an account at my business today with a note I'd entered that the customer was deployed to Afghanistan by now (one of many of our military customers), so I see a lot of these young people and they are first rate.

Francis Bacon (#6) These are the good guys.

#6 Francis Bacon:

Why do Americans always talk of 'good guys' and 'bad guys' and they are only ever the 'good guys'.

Because any other way of thinking tends to lead to failure.

Pretty simple, right? Bet that explains a whole lotta things in your life.

#6 Francis Bacon

Americans typically think of themselves in black and white terms, right and wrong.

Are Americans always right?

It is not about being right, it's about doing what you think is the right thing. There is a difference. And in that respect, I think history has proven that Americans are willing to do what they think is the right thing.

Arrghh, I wish I was a better writer. I can do no justice to what I believe is a great national quality.

You leftists can have your vapid Hollywood idols. My heroes are men like this soldier.

Here's health to you and to our Corps
which we are proud to serve.
In many a strife we've fought for life
and never lost our nerve.

Ooh-rah Devil Dogs!

Wow. How can I, as an American every repay the sacrifices our armed forces make?
I hope they go in at night, they have lots of good mecha for nitetime.

At work, we always used to say, "Wait until dark". We had contracts with NVL, Night Vision Labs-- their motto was: "Conquest of Darkness".

Semper fi!

#31 Seahawk

Same here, ex ground-pounder cheering on the Marines! Who'd a thunk? :)

Kick ass and take names my Leatherneck friends!

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle."
- General Pershing, U.S. Army

"Retreat, hell! We just got here."
- Capt Lloyd Williams at the Battle of Belleau Wood

"Panic sweeps my men when they are facing the American Marines!"
- Captured North Korean Major

"They're on our right, they're on our left, they're in front of us, they're behind us;
they can't get away from us this time."
- Chesty Puller, USMC, Chosin Reservoir, Korean War

G-dspeed and good hunting, Devil Dogs.

#32 FH

Another positive article in the Houston Chronicle

I'm a soldier with the U.S. Army serving in the 16th Combat Engineer Battalion in Baghdad.The news you are hearing stateside is awfully depressing and negative.

The reality is we are accomplishing a tremendous amount here, and the Iraqi people are not only benefiting greatly, but are enthusiastically supportive.

[Link: www.chron.com...]

Reports are indicating 300 dead so far in Fallujah. A long way to go yet. A lot of crazy Sunnis still out in the streets fighting the Marines. But the battle seems to be moving street by street, and this rats nest will be cleaned up. Likely a lot of Shias will be cheering on the USMC on this one.

Elsewhere the next few days will be critical, with major Shia festivals coming up.

Why can the media print and televise stuff like this, instead of all the lazy no-nothing armchair quarterbacking that goes on.

CBC announcer: after the break, we'll interview a socialist with a life-long hate for the Western world and an anti-American axe to grind, and he'll tell us why the evil U.S. is in a quagmire in Iraq.

Remote: Crash! (as it hits the TV)

MAKE PEACE OR DIE.

Motto of 1st Battalion 5th Marines (1/5).

Why don't we just drop bombs? In the decision not to drop bombs, we instead trade the lives of our guys for their guys. Isn't it that simple? Isn't making the decision not to drop bombs so as not to kill "innocents" on the ground, a decision to allow our own guys to be killed in order to spare their guys?

Since when are these "innocents" more important than our trained, loyal, and patriotic USMC? The whole idea of not going in with bombs because of "public opinion" smacks of Madaline Albright and her failed policies.

We have the smart bombs and they don't. Why aren't we using them?

I think these guys didn't get the memos from the Iraqi troops who personally witnessed a MOAB in March 2003. Maybe we need to give them a little taste of what we are capable, and then see if they still want to play this way.

#6 Francis Bacon

Just a thought

#6

I dont know much about "good" and "bad" guys.

But one thing I know for sure-

Your an asshole!

Give 'em hell, boys and girls.

My prayers are with these brave marines. And thank you to Nancy for your hard work & sacrifice. It is appreciated.

Two quotations I like that seem appropriate . . . (and correct me if they're not quite accurate, please)

"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you." (Trotsky)

"No better friend, no worse enemy." (U.S. Marines)

God bless and good luck--semper fi

#6

Just to jump on the Bacon train here...

Are Americans always right?

No.. chomsky

#6 Francis Bacon - The Shiites were afraid to fight Saddam, but they'll fight us. The denizens of third-world Arab shitholes will demonstrate against us, but are afraid to demonstrate against their own corrupt leaders. Why do you think this is?

The Marines have landed and the situation is well in hand.

Give 'em hell boys.

Monkeyboy, USNR

Mississauga Matt:

'cuz actually broadcasting the leftloons has the effect of steeling Americans to be sure of what is right. It really is that simple. If our news services were to be broadcasting daily messages about our valor, our invincibility, our hope, our message, gradually (this being American and not the DPRK), people would begin to think, "hmmm... the gov'ment is layin' it on too thick. There's a dead fish here. Maybe we ought NOT to believe in this so much".

So, by allowing (and I imagine, even encouraging) the loonyleft to launch their lunch, and whatever skinheads from the right to ralph their roots, they cause the middle to think, "yep. Its better being in the middle. Go Marines!"

Might be wrong, but might be right!

GoatGuy

for the marines

#50 Lucile...in the holy city of Bugtussle . . .

I like your nick. I may copy your idea when appropriate. I'm sick and tired of all those "holy cities" and "holy sites" conveniently located where terrorists hang out. Most of those "holy cities" and "holy sites" are built on top of other peoples' sacred places anyway.

#28

My arty unit had a major as battery commander for a while. He was promoted to major, but had no where to go at HQ so they left him as CO until something more suitable became available.

#35 I disagree. Its not about what you think is right or feel is right (a trait all lefties have, and I'm not calling you a lefty). Its about absolute good versus absolute evil. These are easily defined in the Torah. Good versus evil is an intellectual endeavor not an emotional one. For example, I'm sure the murdering terrorist jihadis think/feel they are in the right, that they are good. This leads to moral relativism. No, the fight is clearly and absolutely about good versus evil. Just as in Vietnam, and Korea, and Japan, and Germany and Italy, and our own Civil War. Through all these conflicts America HAS been and WILL continue to be a force for good, a force for justice in the world. No other nation, except Israel, is as righteous as this country is today.

That "Just a thought" from #6 deserves comment on its own.

Have you ever noted where this appears? It almost always postfixes a random thought, or a preconceived position, that was not examined either in light of observable facts or with rigorous reason.

When I think about when I hear it or read it, it's associated in my mind with those who are trying to impress others that they can partake in a discussion to which they have come unprepared (they have not done their homework, literally, when they use it in a classroom), or to which there are not willing to actually devote real cognitive energy.

It is, thus, the perfect postfix to that vapid "thought" posted. Give him credit, he got one thing right.

Itis GREAT to hear the patriotism spoken from the front lines! May these guys, sacrificing for me, always savor the taste of confidence and pride!
I THANK YOU AND YOUR FAMILIES!!!
As my father did for me,I did for you, and you ARE doing for your sons,MARCH ON!!!
.
.p.s. kill them all and let their god sort them out!

Makes me proud to have had USMC after my name!

G-d Bless.

#27Bill K. and #47

I am glad that we are taking the battle to them but saddened that we are sacrficing innocent American soldiers for guilty Islamic civilians for the sake of PC.

I am afraid that we will not really win this battle until the life of one American soldier is more important than any number of guilty enemy civilians.

We should bomb them into submission and then send the troops in to take control with minimal risk.

HOOAH !!!

#6 Francis Bacon

I hope you don't fart when you're praying 5 times a day hunched over on that carpet you and your kind use.

# 6 Francis Bacon:

Why do Americans always talk of 'good guys' and 'bad guys' and they are only ever the 'good guys'. Are Americans always right? Just a thought.

Because we ARE the good guys, you moral-equivalence junkie. For all the terrible things for which this country has been responsible, our contributions to the world at large exceed them by many orders of magnitude.

People who send their children to murder other children, who defend genital mutilation, honor killing, the oppression of women and the destruction of cultures not their own, who believe that memorizing the Koran is the highest state of human knowledge, who use women and children as human shields, who dance in the street at the thought of their glorious leader raining chemical death on innocent populations in other countries, and for uncountable other reasons - of which I have no doubt you are very well aware, you puling, prevaricating moral dwarf - THEY are the bad guys.

Any questions?

God bless and God speed the USMC and all our servicemen.

Be safe and do what must be done.

#66
sometimes when you're cleaning chickens you get sh-t on your hands.

who-AHH!!!

And when the bombs hit the rat-filled mosque...and the bullets hit the scurrying scum...

BOOO-YAHH!!!

#6 Francis Bacon - Because any one was foolish enough to argue the point with a marine rifle company is usually not around any more to question the point.

#6 bacon bits

Why do Americans always talk of 'good guys' and 'bad guys' and they are only ever the 'good guys'. Are Americans always right? Just a thought.

Yo, bit! Im a Canadian and I feel and agree that these MEN are are the good guys! Anyone with half a brain knows this to be a fact. Well leaving your missing parts out of this, what do you think?

#55 David Simon

That's all the more reason to use the real weapons against the enemy. Saddam kills their brother, their sister, their mother and their father. The US takes away Saddam and then they attack the US forces?

Bombs away please.

Charles:

Thank you for posting this. When I awoke this morning and saw that every station was broadcasting Rice's testimony live before the 9/11 panel, I got sick. The major networks spend 5-10 minutes on what is happening in Iraq and will devote hours to the 9/11 panel.

I'm not saying that there isn't any value to the 9/11 commission, but what did or didn't happen or what was known in August of 2001 is not as important to the cause of liberty and freedom or the future of this country as the current events in Fallujah and the rest of Iraq. The outcome of our War with the Mullahs in Iran will have greater implications for the future of this country than any findings of the 9/11 commission. If al-Sadr and his Iranian backers win, the findings and actions by the commission will mean nothing.

The events in Iraq are going to be a pivotal point in the War on Terror. Losing in Iraq will set this War back decades and could possibly lead to total vitory by the Terrorist.

Where, I ask, is Mr. Bush. This country doesn't need testimony before a panel; it needs a Leader!

Godspeed, fellow American...man I got teary-eyed reading that. I'm praying hard for their safety in the difficult days ahead. This fight's already hit my hometown. Two local Marines died in the fighting this week.

#47 "Why don't we just drop bombs? In the decision not to drop bombs, we instead trade the lives of our guys for their guys. Isn't it that simple? Isn't making the decision not to drop bombs so as not to kill "innocents" on the ground, a decision to allow our own guys to be killed in order to spare their guys?"

Good question. That's what Clinton thought. Play it nice and safe in Desert Fox, just drop bombs on them, no ground troops. That's what he also thought when he lobbed a few cruise missiles at Afghanistan.

Since Clinton left office 4 years ago, we've had wars it...you guessed it. Iraq and Afghanistan. Air power is great for supporting ground troops. But you need the good guys to go in there personally and punch them in the face in order to be effective.

God bless the USMC, and godspeed. We're waiting for word.

Well, I'm one who certainly doesn't want to see them there (I know many would not agree with me). Building a democracy there is like trying to turn savages into civilized people.

That said, they are there, so I'll wish them success in their task (hope they prove me wrong about Iraq), pray that G-d looks over them, and look forward to their safe and healthy return to their families.

this exact same event more or less would have happened if we had gone in after the gulf war when everyone wanted us to. Anyone disagree?

It's good to see the Christian God fighting the Islamic God with all the prayers of the Americans behind him. Weird.
Has nothing been learned from Vietnam? You can't beat a determined foe when they're defending their own country - unless of course you propose nuking the place which I suppose some of the contributers here would support.
Americans are good at 'shock and awe'. They haven't got a good record with guerilla warfare.

#61 Andy from Agoura Hills

Actually, I completely agree with you. I just think that the majority of Americans do not rationalize their emotions.

Hmm. How to say this?

They accept that emotion as righteous, without delving into the why. It's not that they are wrong, just, not thinking too deeply into the why they are correct. They just know. G-d, does this make any sense? I don't know. Either way, I still agree with your original premise.

#60 JR 4/8/2004 10:26AM PST

thanks, I would think it is a rare occurance to have a Major as a Company Level Commander.

I'm thinking that this guy is really Battalion or Regimental Staff and somewhere along the transmission of this his position got re-interpeted.

Being promoted to Major usually means you've had successful company command previously.

#81 Francis Bacon

Americans are good at 'shock and awe'. They haven't got a good record with guerilla warfare.

I think that the Japanese would disagree.

I'm with Mr. Pol, this is discouraging, as admirable as this guy's resolve is.

POTUS (President of the United States) has given us the green light to do whatever we needed to do to win this thing so we have that going for us.

We cannot kill a lot of innocent folks

These two statements can't co-exist and be true. By the time our boys are close enough in urban warfare to be sure there's minimal possibility of civilian deaths, they're already at unacceptable levels of risk. They sure as hell aren't "given us the green light to do whatever we needed to do."

Now certainly they won't go around devastating non-threat targets, but if there is a threat, it should be taken out as safely (to our Marines) as possible. If it was something that the Iraqis don't want hit, they shouldn't have fighters there. The sooner we drive home the message that this won't save them, the sooner they'll stop bothering to endanger sensitive targets.

Our spokesman, when asked crap like "Why did you attack an orphanage?" should say "We didn't. We attacked armed enemies, who had no business being in an orphanage." Do note, I've yet to hear of the fatwah or protest marches objecting to the use of mosques and human shields. But yeah sure, the majority of Iraqis are "on our side."

Actually, what I also worry about is these terrorists getting away. It seems that when the Marines get close enough, all they have to do is throw down the rifle and pick up a newspaper, then plop down and start reading it before the Marines see them. "Wasn't us shooting at you. Musta been some other guys. We're innocent civilians." Maybe the notion is that they won't do this, or that there are other ways to get them. Hopefully some of our more knowledgable lizards have time to send me a clue.

#81

I guess the Germans and the Japanese weren't a determined foe?

We are not fighting an Islamic God, we are fighting Islamo-facists. Al-Sadr and his ilk are not defending their country: They are trying to install another terror-inspired regime like in Iran. Do think it is not worth fighting for to prevent that? Do you not think that the Iranian Regime is evil? Do you have any morals?

All I can say is God bless the Marines.

OOOHRAH!!

Robb is right. That was best four years of my life. The pride I feel for having worn the same uniform as these patriots is beyond description. (3rd LAI Bn, 88-91)

Stay alive Leathernecks! Make those other bastards die for their "ideals"!

Semper Fi!

Francis Bacon

Your nationality?

#81 Francis Bacon:

What is it with pond scum like you? Do you think you can spout off like you did before, get your ass handed to you and then pipe up again as if you had scored points?

The utterly venal, hateful, ahistorical, just-plain-ignorant tone of your posts is transparent and terribly common. Your agenda - "Ooooh, I'll use VIETNAM!!! That'll show them that I'm up on history and make them cringe!!!" - is tiresome and not a little jejeune.

Your uneducated, hypocritical blather does nothing but expose you for the utter waste of a soul that you are.

It really is terrible that Marines will die because we don't have the backbone to give an hours warning to the 3 innocent Fallujians to get out of town, then level the place.

1. US soldiers would not be at risk.
2. The fighting wouldn't spread for sure.

Semper Fi...Godspeed...you make us proud...

There will be plenty of bloodshed at the lowest levels.

Marines, please be safe. I'm not a religious person, but all I can say right now is G-d bless you.

And Francis Bacon

It's good to see the Christian God fighting the Islamic God with all the prayers of the Americans behind him.

Did it ever occur to you that Islamic god needs to be fought?

Has nothing been learned from Vietnam? You can't beat a determined foe when they're defending their own country...

Iraq is not Vietnam and the foe (I'm glad you are using this word) is not that detumined. Btw, the allies beat Germany, a determined foe defending it's own country in WW2. And mind you, we did it without nukes, because the nukes weren't there yet.

Is anyone suprised by his letter? These are the goddamned United States Marines, for crying out loud! One of the finest fighting organizations in history! Do we have to recount the unheard of times they have been the 'first to fight'?

Do we go into the incredible victories they have achieved throughout history? When it's all said and done in Fallujah, OUR MARINES will be the ones left standing. When have they ever backed down, these brave men of the Marine Corps?

As General Patton once said of the Germans he was about to face in battle 'I feel sorry for them; I really do'.

It applies here. Those Muslims want to die for their cause? Our Marines will help them get there.

Godbless and godspeed to every U.S. Marine. I thank my personal God we have men and women like that in our armed forces.

Nancy (#43)

Thank you! We have to search out the positives you have pointed out, so it's always great to hear first-hand accounts like yours.

To the USMC: Go kick ass, and then come home safely when your work is done. We love you, no matter what the trash-media tries to say.

To all y'all who have ever had US(any armed services) as part of your career; particularly those who had to lay your life on the line: THANK YOU!

Because of you, I have freedom -- and I appreciate it.

#78

I agree that we need to punch them in the face personally, American-style.

But don't get me wrong. When I say "bomb them," I don't mean lobbing a few Tomahawks over there and hoping they get scared. I'm talking about dropping massive tonnage and holding off for an hour to see if they give. If they don't, more tonnage. Then wait for a response.

Add. Rinse. Repeat.

Then, when they finally show that they have given up, drop one more round of tonnage to make an example of them to other Iraqis who think they can try the same thing.

They respect force, and a lot of it.

All I'm suggesting to do is to earn their respect.

#94 House

I for one am not "suprised" by the letter. I agree the Marines are the best.

I would like to say "Thanks" to Jolly Roger for sharing this wonderful piece, it really makes my day to have my faith in the US Military so strongly confirmed once in a while.

I pray for all the US Service Members to come out unharmed and with a decisive victory.

Mr Pol

What it means is that those soldiers are going to take more risks than they should, in what is already a difficult theater.

I wonder what percentage of the deaths so far are from being too concerned for civilians. Too concerned, not saying some concern isn't just.
An American

Isn't making the decision not to drop bombs so as not to kill "innocents" on the ground, a decision to allow our own guys to be killed in order to spare their guys?

Sometime it really is black and white, isn't it? So how many men are we willing to trade for their civilian lives? None seems too few; they are innocents we are talking about here. Would I be okay with knowing my son died to save three dozen Iraqi toddlers? Probably, even knowing how they would likely think when they grew up. But from my vantage point (admittedly not in theater) it appears we are trading too many men for civilians whose innocence is too often questionable.

LGFers,

Forgive me if this has already been noted, but please don't miss the current post on Victor Davis Hanson's website, where he raises (and pretty much answers) the question of whether people like those in Fallujah (and much else of the middle east) are victims of --- you name it, Saddam, oppression, the west, colonialism, etc. --- or rather whether their pathologies are thoroughly home-grown and deeply-rooted. It's thoroughly depressing, but needs to be looked at squarely, and you can tell that VDH (who is so wonderful, but really needs a proofreader; I'll volunteer) takes no joy in doing so.

Merde!

I precise that merde! used as a greeting does mean Good Luck. It's the French equivalent of 'break a leg', in case you don't know.

Francis Bacon: If you think the enemy in Iraq is the people of the "Islamic God" then you're probably the kind of person that thought the enemy in Vietnam was the people of "no God".

The Muqtards™ are from woven cloth of the Muslim Brotherhood. al-Sadr views the situation in Iraq as ripe for bloodshed. He hopes to attain power by killing whomever stands in the way starting with...Muslims.

Marines: Go kick ass.

Francis Bacon: Go fuck yourself, you America-hating 'tard.

#81 Francis Bacon

"It's good to see the Christian God fighting the Islamic God with all the prayers of the Americans behind him. "

Nice straw man. How come you're blathering about gods fighting each other? This is a political war...probably the most political war ever. Vietnam? Feh. That was bad, but at least there was high casualties, and actual provable lying going on, and other things that made it political.

The politics surrounding this thing are made up of whole cloth. Like when you imply that we are treating this as a "holy war" or something, when nobody but you said anything of the kind.

Foxnews just broke into kerry's interminable campaigning with Fallujah footage (it's nitetime there!)
Gonna go watch.

Wow, didn't think Charles would even read that...gotta catch up on the comments, but here's one:

#28 John Gibbon

The MAJ in the header is the guy who forwarded it to me, who is actually a Cobra pilot. I'm Navy, btw.

"Allah" said he'd seen something similar if not the same in some military forum a few days ago.

God bless the US marines. Let's pray they all make it back home in one piece. We owe them a lot.

I agree with those who think that we're still in PC mode when it comes to prosecuting this war--we should look to protect our troops instead of their civilians, stop focusing on minimizing casualties and concentrate on achieving military victory, start communicating our side of this war instead of letting media Fifth Columnists create propaganda for the other side...

But the longer the fighting goes on, the more likely Bush will have to discard all PC notions or face defeat.

semper fi Major

Obviously you need boots on the ground for this sort of campaign, but I agree that they should start with a healthy dose of bombing. It's harder for them to maintain order and strategy with blood running from their burst eardrums.

From the Iraqi perspective:

Thursday, April 08, 2004
Attention……. GC and Iraqi Parties

I can’t say it’s more normal than yesterday and it’s not worse too, but are we staying home? No……Are we seeing any fights in streets? No……... Also we meet people from Sadir city and Adhamiya city every day and they are attending their jobs, and not standing against coalition forces……. Also I hade a phone call from a relative in Basrah and he said its calm and the damn media is lying as usual.

Don't you just love insider blogsthat give us an alternative to the glass-half-empty media?

#81 Bacon bits

Why don't you ask the Vietnamese what the US is like at jungle warfare 55,000 US dead versus 1 million Vietnamese

BTW, in the grand setpiece that was the Cold War, US resolve stemmed the tide of Communims in SE Asia, allowing Thailand, Singapore, Malaya etc, breathing room to develop markets economies, with relatively functioning democracies.

Eat shit and die!

A Canadian (and yeah, you can call me a chickenhawk, but the US is still doing the right thing).

Whatever you think of #6 (and I think he's an idiot), you had to admit that it was a masterful troll. More than half the responses so far are people nuking him from orbit.

Godspeed Marine! I will be pacing and praying for a safe return for all of you, and OUR liilves and well beings rest on your shoulders.

I only WISH I was half the people that you are.

USA...

dammit cant remember the apropriate quote from full metal jacket about a marine and his gun
anyone

#113 Yeah, it was pretty good. *grin*

We'll know that the gloves have come off when the response to fire from the grounds of a mosque is to flatten the mosque. Not the wall outside the courtyard outside the mosque. I'm still waiting, and I keep hearing how al-Sadr is "holed up in a mosque surrounded by his followers"...

But putting that complaint aside, perhaps the best possible thing to happen, given the numbers of jihadi scum in the area, is for them all to come together in one place, raise a great big whoop, convince themselves that they can hold ground against U.S. military forces, and thereby present the sort of target that those forces are best able to address.

"The Marines are fired up." Gotta love it.

Limited rules of engagement or not, there's going to be an ass-kicking.

One last thought. Former Iraqi army regulars, elite Republican Gaurd, et al. demonstrated quickly enough about a year ago that they well undertstood the futility of taking on our armed forces in any sort of actual battle. Might many of the Shias being encountered now be Iranian "pilgrims" with no such institutional or personal memory? If so, the more quickly this will be over.

#115 jimmytheclaw

See here.

I thought it was Hartman as well, but RWC sez it's Pershing.

So who am I to believe?

We, who know whats best for the country, are behind you! God speed USMC!!

After reading that letter I know that
I've wasted my life.

I would be honored to be in
the company of a man like that for
only a few minutes.

#115:

(maybe not verbatim)

Staff Sgt. Hartman: Pray!

Gyrenes:

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my rifle is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviours of my life. So be it .. . until there is no enemy ... but peace...and death. Amen.

Thanks, Charles, for posting this email. Reading words from the front lines reminds us just how insanely brave and selfless these people are, and is clear evidence that we ARE - no doubt - the good guys. God bless them all with the strength to obliterate these miserable thugs and the destiny to come home safely.

The people who matter at home are ALL behind you, unwavering, no matter what.

81 Bacon

Reading the account of this young man going to bat for my whole country, and your subsequent bashing (you sound like one of these Euro "meaningless" types) I could only hope we never cross paths.

You sir are the most vile of human beings that deserves to die.

And yes I care for the safety of MY people, a safe and kind people who do not bomb innocents on planes and buses. I feel no remorse but for the loss of my own countrymen.

Now time for you to do the same.

#115 jimmytheclaw

Beat you to it :-P

Check my #41

Ooh-Rah!

Get'em Devil Dogs.

Semper Fi

God has a hard on for Marines, because we kill everything we see. He plays His games, we play ours. To show our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls. God was here before the Marine Corps, so you can give your heart to Jesus, but your a$$ belongs to the corps.

A rifle is only a tool. It's a hard heart that kills. If your killer instincts are not clean and strong you will hesitate at the moment of truth. You will not kill. You will become dead Marines. And then you will be in a world of @$%. Because Marines are not allowed to die without permission.

Do you maggots understand?

I can't hear you!

#106 Jolly Roger 4/8/2004 11:00AM PST

Thanks for clearing up the confusion on this. Jolly Roger, eh. Launched yourself from a 'boat' lately!

Just a little inter-service humor...

Has nothing been learned from Vietnam? You can't beat a determined foe when they're defending their own country

Sure you can. It has happened numerous times. And the resolve of the enemy had nothing to do with the outcome of Vietnam. We beat ourselves.

#108 Gary

stop focusing on minimizing casualties

Just so. Minimize when possible, but stop focusing on it.

OT for the thread, somewhat relevant to the Francis Bacon discussion:

Excellent Lee Harris essay on TCS - Orientalism as Racism

#115 jimmyclaw

Or are you talking about the cadence:

This is my rifle, **grabs crotch** this is my gun...

This is for fighting, this is for fun.

#118 Thom

So who am I to believe?

What a silly question.

As much as I appreciate and admire this Marine Major's resolve and courage, this is what still pisses me off. From today's reporting on the fighting in Fallujah:

"Also in Fallujah, Marines said that armed insurgents had returned to the mosque that was struck but not destroyed Wednesday by U.S. aircraft.

"Marine Capt. Chris Chown, who coordinates air strikes for the unit near the Mosque, said insurgents returned to the building Wednesday evening. "There were guys running in and out of it all night and this morning carrying weapons," he said Thursday."

Why did the Marines let the mosque be re-occupied? Why didn't they station themselves in the mosque instead?

Answer: PC rules are still dictating how our military fights--or doesn't fight.

I am completely humbled reading this. Thank heavens we have men and women like the author of this letter on our side, who feel this deep sense of purpose and mission and are willing to put their lives on the line.

This battle is going to be talked about for a long time. The Marine Corps will either reaffirm its place in history as one of the greatest fighting organizations in the world or we will die trying.

Wow.

Go get 'em, Marines.

#131 Right Wing Conspirator

LOL. dB^þ

god bless this american soldier and all of the armed forces who sacrifice for the peace and security of our
great country.

Emperor Misha has posted a great photo from one of our bases in Iraq: "Peace Through Superior Signage"

[Link: nicedoggie.net...]

#81 Bacon Boy:

History is ripe with conquered countries whos peoples wnated to defend it a whole lot more than ths scum that populates Falluja. (Germany 1945 being the most glaring example)

Vietnam was lost not because the local drove out the american dogs, but because the liberal pigs pulled the rug from under the feet of our troops and called them home.

Learn some history.

Having a few friends in 2/1, all I can say is, Godspeed USMC. Godspeed.

My daily thoughts and prayers are with all of those who serve in our military.

I served in the 80's. It is not an easy job or large pay, but you do feel good about yourself!

Semper Fi!

#75 Axiom -

Bombs away please.

You'll get no argument from me.

The Francis Bacons of the world talk out of their assholes. They say we're the bad guys, but they know better. One thing's for sure: Francis and his crowd wouldn't be talking the same shit if Saddam or Kim Jong Il were in Bush's shoes.

Vietnam was lost not because the local drove out the american dogs, but because the liberal pigs pulled the rug from under the feet of our troops and called them home.

And the fact that after years of bombing the shit out of vietnam, the little buggers still kept coming out of the rice paddies to kick ass. Hmm. So much for bombing the shit outta people...

I think it's sad that this brave Marine has to risk his life for these people...I'm with the other posters who are wondering why we don't shed this PC mentality and bomb place.

OT: Does anyone know if commanders studied Israel's Jenin incursion to prepare for these situations? I read in the Times, before the war started, that this was being considered.

Thanks so much Ed, for #12. It was SO eloquent and much politer than what I was planning on saying.

God Bless The American Military

OT: Iraqi Child Abuse

An Iraqi boy waves a toy pistol as armed members of the Iraqi Shia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr’s al-Madhi army mourn at a funeral for a slain al-Sadr loyalist outside the headquarters of his in Sadr City, Iraq, on Wednesday.

re 141 chesty

GAZE people, GAZE!

#81 Francis Bacon

Americans are good at 'shock and awe'. They haven't got a good record with guerilla warfare.

You're probably one of those people who think the Tet offensive was a stunning success for the Viet Cong. Tet was the single worst thing ever to happen to the Commie cause. it took the American 5th column press to turn it into a victory for the Vietnamese.

#146 --- the trampoline in my mind is already bouncing.

#146 RoP really chappin' my hide

GAZE people, GAZE!

Or, as Steve Miller wrote in a previous thread, GRAZE!

** stands for a group gaze

#133 Occasional Reader

I can only echo you.

God bless.

I also started to tear up when he referred to the upcoming battle as this war's Belleau Woods. G-d bless you, you crazy brave bastard! I really find it impossible to adequately express my gratitude to men (and in the case of the earlier combat post, women) like these.
I also thought it was very moving to see all the support from dogfaces and swabbies. ;-)
I shouldn't even respond to Francis, but I actually feel a twinge of pity. I don't know how old you are fella, but somehow you got stuck in a 30 year time warp and you can't get out. We won the war, but lost the PR campaign, and we are still paying for that mistake. The evidence is the profusion of sad little cowards like you.

Semper Fi, Devildogs! You are in our prayers

(please excuse my english)
I want to express my gratitude to Cmdr Thomas E. , to all the brave men fighting for us in Iraq, and to the american people, who saved us europeans (and in my case us french) three times, during WWI,WWII, and
during the cold war.
Please be assured that some people in Europe, and even in France, refuse to live in denial of the threat before us, despite the constant anti-american /pro-arab propaganda.
And in the face of the despicable behavior of our leaders such as chirac, schroeder and the likes, all I
can say is:
you can be proud to be americans.

Gilbert, emailing from Paris, France

V the K -- again LMAO

Slightly OT: some editorializing by AFP (surprise surprise)...

1
2
3
AFP is the mouthpiece of the enemy.

I haven't read any of this thread yet, but I just wanted to say that my thoughts, hopes and prayers are with all of our Brave Heroes in Iraq. May God Bless and look after them in their selfless sacrifice for us here at home.

Please let everyone you know pray for these Brave Souls.

#152 Gilbert -

Thank you. After all the awful things I've read, I needed to hear that.

If you want to immigrate, I'll write you a nice recommendation letter.

#152 Gilbert

Good to hear some sanity from France :-)

Gilbert from Paris, France

All I can think to say at the moment is WOW!

35 RIP Ford 4/8/2004 10:10AM PST

#6 Francis Bacon

Americans typically think of themselves in black and white terms, right and wrong.

Are Americans always right?

It is not about being right, it's about doing what you think is the right thing. There is a difference. And in that respect, I think history has proven that Americans are willing to do what they think is the right thing.

(Boy, I sure wish I knew how to use that 'quote' tool. Sorry it looks so lame)

RIP Ford: My thoughts exactly.

As a Canadian, I'm often filled with awe at how just one company/task force/division (forgive my ignorance of the U.S. Marine command structure) of the Marines is bigger than the entire Canadian army, navy and air force combined.

I detect a desire to 'stir the pot' in Francis Bacon's #6 post. Yet, it is a valid question. But the validity is negated by the fact that it could be posted by a possible troll looking for some sort of heavy-handed response so that he/she/it could go back to where he/she/it came from and proclaim, "see, I told you so! All LGF's are racist cro magnums!"

Are American the good guys? Yes. I think what RIP Ford is alluding to is that the yearning to do what is right and honourable is what makes a good guy, well, good. It's not the fact that a good guy is infallible. When a missile was launched at a mosque very recently, some women and children could have been killed (I don't know if this was confirmed), but that doesn't automatically make America bad. The intent was to take out some bad guys while avoiding civilian deaths. A mistake could have happened (that's what you get when you have 'so called mujahadeen warriors' using women and children as shields). What gets me is that people paint America as evil because of unfortunate civilian casualties. America would be evil if they carpet bombed Fallujah to the ground, marched in, lined up all the surviving men of fighting age and shot them, raped all the women and sent the children to concentration camps to work as slaves. But did they do that? No, of course not.

I like to think of any groups of people, regardless of whether it's groups of people forming a business, military, country, etc, etc tend to behave the same.

As an engineer, I work for a professional company (funny enough, it's Bechtel ;). Most of the people here are good and decent folks who work hard and strive to do what is ethical and right. But, of course, there are always the odd individuals who are lazy, kinda dumb or incompetent and some days you wished you could smack them... Anyway, a long-winded response to basically say that good guys are good because they strive to do what is right, and not because they are incapable of failure.

SEMPER FI, SEMPER FI INDEED

P.S. Wow... I haven't posted here in a long time!

#157

Do you mean:

Cartago delenda est (Carthage must be destroyed)

or:

Cartago delendum est (Carthage has been destroyed)?

I'm not being mean, I just like my Latin classical.

Just a comment for you guys that think we should flatten Faluja with bombs before sending in the marines:

The bad guys in Faluja are there with women and children non-combatants. These folks (at least the kids) are innocents and restraining the level of violence to protect them is an admirable and just decision.

For the marines: they will inevitably HAVE to trade some of their lives to protect these innocents. That is price of being the good guys. I don't like it; but it's the right decision and I'm glad the marine who wrote this letter is making important distinctions about what he can/cannot do.

I think it's a price the marines and our other service men/women are willing to pay.

God speed and bless Marine.

#157 curtis lemay:

Let me guess - now you are going to post on a lefty website with a different nick and say, "Look at the racist garbage they're posting at LFG!"

FOAD.

#66 Facts of Life

I am afraid that we will not really win this battle until the life of one American soldier is more important than any number of guilty enemy civilians.

Sorry...you are wrong. We will win...the Marines (and other branches of the US military...and our allies) will see to that.

Who (other than you) is placing more value on an enemy than on our own sons and daughters?

#159 AlienWorkShop Boy

Thank you for expressing clearer what I so clumsily botched.

#152 gilbert, pas besoin de t'excuse, ton anglais est excellent. je dirais meme idiomatique. t'habite ou a paris?

/m

this is an email i just received today from a buddy in the 1st ID (he's a Captain):

Hey...quick update...then gotta get back to work...

We have been planning operations that I literally cannot say anything
about until they start for real concern of operational security and
soldiers' lives.

These Muslims are out of control. They will be dealt with in a harsh
manner. However, it really bothers me that they do not fear us the way
they should. Hopefully that will change soon. We have the news on in
our office. I really get sick of the Liberal media. Does the liberal
media realize how their defeatism, magnified by Arab media, bolsters the
morale of the insurgents and gives credence to their cause. They
believe they can influence American politics through violence and break
America's will to fight. I believe we are at a cross-roads in Iraq. We
must stand strong and kill these insurgents. These are "the times that
try men's souls". This is the crisis; we'll come though it.

We have taken numerous mortar rounds here at the palace in Tikrit. Its
kinda sureal though, we don't give them a second thought. Things are
pretty calm up here compared to down south.

Take care,

Please remember that one of the criteria for a just war is to minimize civilian casualties. That's why we can't just bomb the place, and shouldn't.

I, too, wish the Marines didn't have to risk their lives for ungrateful cowards.

God bless the USMC and all their families, and all our people.

#166 h-man

Thank you for posting this.

#152 Gilbert - You're english is just fine. I'd love it if you'd post more often.

#155 Dianna

Thanks for the recommendation letter. The more, the better! Some of my relatives who live in NYC, Greenwich CT, Miami Fl, are also gonna write.

# 165 manu
Paris 7, et toi?

Gilbert

There is something we can do
to help this soldier fight.

We can fight on the homefront.

Everyone should be calling their
representatives and senators:

1) Demanding an aggressive
military actions against Islamo-fascists.

2) Demanding and end to Muslim
immigration to the USA.

Those seeking more Muslim immigration
and a pacifist military are
very active and they profit
greatly by our silence.

Lets fight this war and win!

Contact your reps at

www.senate.gov
[Link: www.house.gov...]

164 RIP Ford

Hey, hey... You didn't botch anything. You wrote well :)

Thanks so much! I am humbled

#170 Me - Unfortunately, my english isn't fine. I meant your, not you're.

Via BlackFive, here's a scary account of the ongoing combat in Iraq.

#152 Gilbert: Welcome, and thank you for your words. I've loved your city every time I've visited, by the way... I firmly hope it is never subsumed in a sharia world!

#157 "curtis lemay": go play in traffic.

Juxtapose:
Limiting/avoiding civilian casualties is a part of OUR game plan; using woman and children as human shields (and bombs) is a part of THEIRS.

Us or them. Sorry to be sooo simplistic.

#175 The Sanity Inspector

Um, that was the subject of a LGF thread this morning. :P

The Alamo is Over-Rated

#152 Gilbert
Bienvenue! It cheers me up considerably to know there are still some good men in France!

#157 curtis lemoby
Ah shaddup!

#167 Dianna

I, too, wish the Marines didn't have to risk their lives for ungrateful cowards.

Foreign and domestic

#179 RIP Ford

Um, that was the subject of a LGF thread this morning. :P

He/she could be in a different time zone.

Semi OT

Former Northern Ireland Secretary Mo Mowlam has called on the British and American governments to open talks with Osama bin Laden and al Qaida around a negotiating table. ...

'Negotiate with Bin Laden': Mowlam

From Best o' the Web

Those who are crying quagmire, including Julian Borger of the Guardian, might want to read an article in today's paper by Borger's colleague Rory McCarthy, reporting from near Fallujah:

"The Americans think we are afraid while we recognise them as cowards," said the young man, the commander of this small band of fighters in this village. "We have many heroes who are standing here and elsewhere. We will not be afraid of their tanks and their weapons and their other equipment. We will stay until we defeat them."

Suddenly the gunmen scattered, unnerved by the sound of an approaching US helicopter. Villagers who had been standing in the street fled into their shops and houses and, within seconds, the crossroads was deserted.

#185 curtis lemay

Fuck you.

Sic 'em Devil Dogs!

God bless the Marines.

Hey curtis lemay--

BH already exposed you for what you are (#162). So shouldn't you be off at Democratic Underground by now, denouncing us all as "racists"? Chop chop, curtis, time's a wastin', the country's not just gonna go and hate itself, now is it?

#186 V the K:

Suddenly the gunmen scattered, unnerved by the sound of an approaching US helicopter.

Sounds like the "Alamo" account, too--the jihadis were initially scared by F-16 noise. Then they figured out that nothing would happen to them. It's high time we USED our military assets! Stephen Ambrose described how by late summer 1944, German soldiers would instinctively hit the ground every time they heard an aircraft engine. Let's generate that same Pavlovian response in the jihadis, pronto.

I do not share the sentiment, but, if you're going to say, "Falluja must be/should be destroyed" just substitute "Falluja" for "Cartago." Remember that Latin puts the verbs last, and that you want the imperative, and bob's your uncle.

By the way, the fact that the "warriors" are willing to use civilians as shields to attack our people makes me so angry that I don't dare say what I feel. I keep clinging to the criteria for a just war to keep myself rational.

The coalition are the good guys. God bless them all.

curtis lemay,

Buzz off

RWC,

He/she could be in a different time zone.

True dat. My mistake.

To my brothers fighting in Iraq, I wish you good luck and that I was there to fight by your side.

To the Francis Bacon's and LLL who cower and grovel before the enemy, consider these words, first spoken by Gen Lejeune on Nov 10, 1921.

On November 10, 1775, a Corps of Marines was created by a resolution of the Continental Congress. Since that date, many thousand men have borne the name Marine. In memory of them, it is fitting that we who are Marines should commemorate the Birthday of our Corps by calling to mind the glories of its long and illustrious history.

The record of our Corps is one which will bear comparison with that of the most famous military organizations in the world's history. During 90 of the 146 years of it's existence the Marine Corps has been in action against the nations foes. From the battle of Trenton to the Argonne. Marines have won foremost honors in war, and in the long eras of tranquility at home. Generation after generation of Marines have grown gray in war in both hemispheres and in every corner of the seven seas that our country and its citizens might enjoy peace and security.

In every battle and skirmish since the birth of our Corps Marines have acquitted themselves with the greatest distinction, winning new honors on each occasion until the term Marine has come to signify all that is highest in military efficiency and soldierly virtue.

This high name of distinction and soldierly repute we who are Marines today have received from those who preceded us in the Corps. With it we also received from them the eternal spirit which has animated our Corps from generation to generation and has been the distinguishing mark of the Marines in every age. So long as that spirit continues to flourish Marines will be found equal to every emergency in the future as they have been in the past, and the men of our nation will regard us as worthy successors to the long line of illustrious men who have served as "Soldiers of the Sea" since the founding of the Corps.

Semper Fidelis

#167 Dianna: And what responsibility does the enemy have to protect their own civilians? Surely it outweighs ours to protect theirs. We don't bomb "the place," we bomb enemy forces. We don't try to kill civilians, but it's the enemy's responsibility to distance themselves from their own innocents.

We can go to a military base, and I'll point to the troops I'm willing to risk in a fair and necessary fight. (It will be all of them). Will you point out the ones you're willing to put at increased risk, by telling them you expect them to be shot at, but not shoot back?

the country's not just gonna go and hate itself, now is it?

Chuckle Chuckle *snort*.

#172 xenophon

You are totally whacked.

I wouldn't project one soldier's order-compliance attitudes onto general US morale in the Iraq theater. His civil objectives - pacification and promotion of civil society by use of force - are not consistent with the Bush regime's goals in Iraq. Under the "faith based" BUSH-PLAN, the US indulges formation of religious blocs, and encourages integration of church and state. Ersatz "peace" is to be a factor of Shiite dominance.

GWB facilitated the al-Sadr buildup, by tolerating the armed presence of at least 3,000 of al-Sadr' army within Baghdad Shiite neighborhoods, while prohibiting US patrols of same.
[Link: www.atimes.com...]

A New York Times report suggests that even as a wanted fugitive, al-Sadr is benefiting from a prohibition against hot pursuit:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

...But even now, they said, with his forces having opened an insurrection that is deeply worrying to American commanders, their immediate concern is that the drawbacks of any American-led operation against Mr. Sadr could exceed its benefits.

"There's no rush to bring him in," a senior Defense Department official said. "The overall goal is bigger than just bringing in Sadr. It is to calm the situation in Iraq and have all of the Shiites be part of the solution."

What!

George Orwell concocted a novelized self-contained linguistic system, where creative semantics would obliterate objective understanding. Americans don't want to know that Bush is projecting his perverted "(inter)faith based" concept of America, onto Iraq. Read Bush-Bremer's ORDER #1 for "faith based" Iraq:
[Link: www.cpa-iraq.org...]

Is it not obvious?: Bush-Bremer's Coalition Provisional Authority not only banned "Baathism"; they effectively outlawed Secularism, by aiding and abetting the Islamofascization of Iraqi society. Until the limp anti-Sadr warrant, which is barely being executed, Bush-Bremer took almost no action against Islamofascists, notwithstanding the fact that the same type of [bigoted word]s murdered 3,000 Americans in September 2001.

All of GWB's objectives - pacification, freedom (for clerical tyrants only), development - are shams. How long will his slavish STAY THE COURSE bare minority, delude themselves into believing that Iraqis, including members of US paid security forces, are standing by while Road Side Bombs are planted, and then cheer wildly when RSBs murder Americans?

The quickest way to destroy morale, is to put soldiers in a state of perpetual death siege, with no escape route. Until US troops are allowed to treat [bigoted word] enclaves like Fallujah, as an al-Qaeda entity, desserving of obliteration, American lives will be at unnecessary risk.

The islamofascist cult is a global-genocidal juggernaut, aimed at the murder of 5,000,000,000 non-muslims. As long as the American people indulge an Executive that operates on the perverse assumption that "islam is peace," said juggernaut will advance. As long as public opinion makers find islamic prescriptions, conscionable, the mortal enemy of Western Civilization will advance.

#184 Darrell

Damn right! The question is not: "why do they hate us?"
but: " why don't they fear us" (orientalist Bernard Lewis)

The arab/muslims must be deterred. Otherwise, they will use WMD's whenever they can.
Scotland Yard arrested a group of al Qaeda operatives in London a few days ago. They were planning a chemical attack on the city.

Gilbert

OT: Now here's a former Democratic senator I could actually consider voting for in a Presidential campaign. Problem is, he isn't running; only his homonym is.

#198 Lonestar

Is that the extent of your argument against what xenophon hadsposted? Can you at least explain why he or she is 'totally whacked?'

#81 Francis Bacon

"You can't beat a determined foe when they're defending their own country unless of course you propose nuking the place which I suppose some of the contributers here would support"

Hey Francis,

Hmmm... Funny how the U.S. defeated Germany in WWII by fighting right into the fatherland.

But then again, I was about to include Japan as another example above, but then I realized that the U.S. never really did land on the main Japanese island in WWII. And the U.S. did nuke Hiroshima & Okinawa...

Huh. I think I'm feeding a trool. :P

>still kept coming out of the rice paddies to kick ass.

This is entirely untrue and universities should be denied federal grants if they teach this nonsense (high schools should not get money at all teaching this canard).

The North Vietnamese Army was a defeated organization in 1973 when the Paris Peace Treaty was signed. The Viet Cong itself had been destroyed in 1968 during the Tet Offensive. Thus, there was no "noble savage" coming out of any rice paddies anymore by the end of the war.

The only reason why North Vietnam eventually *won* in Vietnam was because the American Left Wing Progressives had taken a firm hold on the Democratic Party (as they have now done so again)...and they and their media cohorts made DAMN SURE that South Vietnam was totally betrayed by the Congress after Nixon was "taken care of."

Because the Vietnam War had become politicized in this way, the Democrats abandoned 2.5 Million people to their executions at the hands of communists...and thus the Democrats abandoned all the liberal principles that had once made liberalism mean something.

I am a liberal and proud of it. Sadly...as in the Civil War...the Republican Party is now the only place for true liberals.

I honestly believe that, since the Repeal of the Southeast Asia Act was the defining moment when the Democratic Party abandoned all pretense of honor...we need to enact laws or guidelines to at least have the Vietnam War taught truthfully in our schools and offer incentives that it not be taught mendaciously overseas.

You can see by Sadr's invocation of Vietnam in a speech today...that Americans will continue to die because of the way the Democrats politically forced Nixon to cut and run in Indochina and sold 2.5 Million people to their deaths.

#195 Model4

I do not say our forces can't shoot back. Never think that.

I should have clarified that it is the responsibility of the other side not to shelter behind civilians. Someone who has studied the laws of ground warfare needs to tell me (because it's been years since I actually read them) if using civilians as shields is a war crime or not. I sure hope it is.

I support the troops and their mission.

I am angry at the press in general.

I am so furious at these so-called fighters in Falluja that I'm having a hard time expressing myself clearly.

Sorry if I gave you cause to doubt that.

#200 Gilbert

"Oderint dum metuant"--Let them hate, so long as they fear. Some Roman, I forget who. ;^)

#206 Darrell

Caligula

#206

The Emperor Tiberius, I think.

#202 RWC

Ack!

I meant #157 curtis lemay!

He's totally whacked and should go play with some sarin!

#196 Rayra: OK, now they're detained. Now what? "It wasn't me." How long til this guy is released to pick up another AK or RPG and start shooting at our people? 24 hours? 72?

Compared to battlefied operations against real armies, where the enemy wears a uniform, there are no civilians, and he is killed or captured for the duration, this seems like a helluva risk, even as good as our guys are. Enemy gets to shoot at you, then gets to keep his life and freedom, even after you've thoroughly and fairly defeated him in very tough conditions.

#206 Darrell

IIRC, it was a favorite saying of the emperor, Caligula.

Tiberius- Oderint dum probent

Let them hate me provided they respect me

Caligula- Oderint dum metuant

Let them hate me provided they fear me

Latin Mottoes

Occasional Reader:

the jihadis were initially scared by F-16 noise. Then they figured out that nothing would happen to them. It's high time we USED our military assets!

This can't happen until our leadership prepares the public for hard military measures. In short, if the enemy continues to be "a handful of extremists who have hijacked a great religion," then we'll never be able to truly wage war against these bastards--at home or abroad.

I'm always moved by the bravery and dedication of our fighting forces. What a great bunch.

May God protect and guide the US Marine Corp and all the military in the pursuit of the terrorist in Iraq and around the world and may they all come home safely!

Remember a vote for Kerry is a vote for the Taliban and Bin Laden!

Carl from Massachusetts

#209 lonestar

OK - * click * The safety has been reengaged ;-)

We have to be very precise in our application of combat power. We cannot kill a lot of innocent folks (though they are few and far between in Fallujah). There will be no shock and awe. There will be plenty of bloodshed at the lowest levels.

A green light to fight with one hand tied behind one's back...

BUSH SUCKS!

#206 Darrell

If you want to know how much they hate, read this:
AL-QAEDA'S INTELLECTUAL LEGACY:
NEW RADICAL ISLAMIC THINKING JUSTIFYING THE GENOCIDE OF INFIDELS
Jonathan D. Halevi
Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Center for Special Studies (C.S.S)

[Link: www.intelligence.org.il...]

There is no such thing as a free press and a democracy existing together. If you allow laissez faire with no "adjustments," the press will go oppressively left wing and, since the people always vote the way their press want them to...you lose democracy.

Now there are some "self adjustments" in the media world such as when Peter Arnett was quickly fired. But in this war there needed to have been more "lay offs" for traitors like him. And what about Al Jazeera?

Clinton bombed Radio Belgrade in 1999 and all of Europe even agreed with that. So why have we all become so much more tolerant by 2004 when a "tipping point" could be reached with just a few changes in the health of certain publishers? Why, after successfully silencing the voice of Milosevic via his radio station...did we allow Al Jazeera to exist the way it does?

I don't quite get it. Sure Al Jazeera can really be our spies in Fallujah right now. But the photos of dead babies seem to more than compensate our enemies...for any value that an Al Jazeera reporter in Fallujah would do for our intelligence. Or maybe not.

The following sentiment has been expressed in various forms many times in these comments:

"Please remember that one of the criteria for a just war is to minimize civilian casualties. That's why we can't just bomb the place, and shouldn't."

If taken seriously, this means that WWI and WWII were not just wars.

The U.S. military carpet bombed cities for the express purpose of breaking the enemy's will by killing as many civilians as possible. They even bombed the hell out of friendly territory occupied by the enemy.

Do you know what the attitude was of the civilians under the bombs in friendly territory? It was _jubilation_ or very close to it. They knew they were in grave danger, but they also knew the bombing was necessary.

Nuclear weapons, for crissake, were used in Japan - does anybody here think minimizing civilian casualties was a consideration for that? Hell no! The consideration there was _maximizing_ civilian casualties! Nevertheless, those two bombs were probably the single most just and morally proper actions of WWII. Those bombs _saved_ hundreds of thousands of lives (ours and theirs).

Justice _demands_ that the U.S. military be left free to decide what tactics are required to achieve their objectives and to minimize casualities to our own people. Perhaps more importantly, the politicians must set as objectives whatever is required to win the war, and to HELL with any PC considerations.

It is NOT the responsibility of the U.S. government to protect the citizens of the enemy - that is the responsibility of _their_ government. If the required objectives and tactics mean mass civilian death, then so be it. _That_ is the price you pay for having an evil government.

In the case of a war against foaming at the mouth, massively irrational people such as Islamic radicals, mass death (including civilians) is most likely the only way to break their spirit. It is their spirit, after all, that motivates them.

Mark Peters

#205 Dianna: I should have asked some more questions, probably. When people talk about "minimizing civilian casualties" they often mean different things, and some have different agendas (i.e. making the war impossible to win and/or endangering our troops). BTW, I know you're one of the "good guys." Maybe you were just talking to the "take out the whole city and everyone in it" crowd.

I know a bit about the legality and ethics of these situation, though far from an expert. Endangering civilians (your own) is a war crime. Not only that, but using them as human shields does not work to save you from harm. Think about it, if one of these goons straps a toddler to a tank to claim "immunity" and we let that happen, what follows? Everyone starts strapping toddlers to tanks. The military answer is the tank is a fair target, shame the kid gets wasted. At least they won't bother trying that again.

Same reasoning goes as to why weaponry and troops in hospitals and orphanages are fair game: So the enemy won't even bother endangering the civilians, because he gains no protection for doing so.

That's the situation I'm talking about. A bunch of gunmen holed up in a building with some civilians in it, and they are shooting at our troops. Some would (seriously too) say our troops just have to eat the bullets or dodge them until they can personally guarantee the identities and safety of every civvie inside before returning fire. That's not at all required by the laws of warfare, though we could be generous and stay our hand if we wished. But if the word came down that those gunmen have to be taken out, I'd rather they call in a bomb strike that takes out everyone in the building instead of troops being in a shoot out, when we have superiority of firepower.

And I truly despise those whose asses aren't on the line and never will be, who say "I know it endangers our boys needlessly, but tough luck. It may not be required by the law, but I want them to face needless danger while they risk their lives... so I'll be the caring hero in this."

#6 Francis Bacon -- "Why do Americans always talk of 'good guys' and 'bad guys' and they are only ever the 'good guys'. Are Americans always right? Just a thought."

Since you asked. Certainly there may be exceptions, but as a general matter, yes, we are always right. Yes, we are cowboys. Yes, we are proud of it. Yes, the Islamofacists are the bad guys, Yes, we will defeat them. Yes, we will defeat them it spite of people like you.

Model4 -

You know they do it for propaganda value. And our press just eats it up. Check out the front page of the bloody San Francisco Chronicle this morning.

I have got to stop now. I'm supposed to be preparing financial reports, and I've just been thinking about the troops.

223 Model4

'Second that. All the accusations about "chickenhawks" kind of fall flat when we say we support our troops through the ugliest that war has to offer. War is ugly, which is the reason we have to be d@mn careful about going into it. But it is NOT the ugliest. War is NOT the greatest failure of humanity. Inhumanity is, and in our present conflict the inhumanity of Saddam's Baathists, al-Sadr's jihadis, and common Iraqi criminals far outweighs the inhumanity of battle.

Both gloves off, please, Mr. President! Overwhelming force when necessary.

#201 Occasional Reader

Did you see Bob Kerrey's questioning of Dr. Rice today? I read his article at Opinion Journal last night and posted it in a thread here. I thought more favorably of him then than I did during this morning's session. To me, it seemed as though he was trying to give the appearance of impartiality, but he couldn't quite pull it off in the end.

God bless the U.S. military and President Bush. May He keep these soldiers who fight to preserve our freedom.

#186, that is hilarious!

Were the Drinking Light already lit, I would tip my glass to the LGF Devildogs who have already done or are doing their bit:

Rayra
Kragar
Abu cannoncocker

Who am I forgetting?

#229 papijoe:

Me! USMC '89-'93. And right back atcha! ;)

Fact checking your ass, Curtis Lemay never used sarin gas. He did use firebombing. Everyone here who would have had the steel to order thousands of our men to fly lower and without guns to protect themselves, and then be able to sleep after ordering the deaths of 100,000 people raise your hand. No, I thought so, so stop using that nick.

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

An icon of the U.S. Air Force; a remarkably creative tactician; and one of the Cold War's fiercest warriors; General Curtis LeMay led a colorful if extremely controversial career. From early on he argued that, "if you are going to use military force, then you ought to use overwhelming military force. Use too much and deliberately use too much... You'll save lives, not only your own, but the enemy's too." His men called him "Iron Ass" because he demanded so much of them. But because of his own physical courage and his military rigor most of them respected him immensely.

In the last months of the Second World War, LeMay took command of the main air effort against Japan, turning around its tactics. Instead of the established U.S. policy of daylight, precision bombing, he ripped out the armaments on 325 B-29s and loaded each plane with firebomb clusters. On March 10, 1945 he ordered the bombers out at 5 - 9,000 feet over Tokyo.

The devastation wrought that first night was catastrophic: the raid incinerated more than 16 square miles of the city, killing 100,000 people. According to the official Air Force history of the Second World War, "No other air attack of the war, either in Japan or Europe, was so destructive of life and property." For months LeMay's bombers went out night after night, relentlessly keeping up their fire-bombing campaign, so that by the end of the war, flames had totally or partially consumed 63 Japanese cities, killing half a million people and leaving eight million homeless.

Asked later about the morality of the campaign, LeMay replied: "Killing Japanese didn't bother me very much at that time... I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal... Every soldier thinks something of the moral aspects of what he is doing. But all war is immoral and if you let that bother you, you're not a good soldier."

#230 BH

I wish I had something better to toast you guys with than cold Starbucks!

I always meant to find out if any of the LGF Devildogs were Drill Instructors.

#81 Francis Bacon -- "Americans are good at 'shock and awe'. They haven't got a good record with guerilla warfare."

What you don't know about us is breathtaking. When your Jihadi friends push us hard enough, and they will --its only a matter of time, you'll learn that you statement is astonishingly inaccurate. If you want to be prepared for what to expect, read about my Shenandoah Valley campaign in 1864 and my commanding officer's (Lt. Gen. US Grant) instructions as to my mission. I succeeded in my mission.

#232 Rayra

Easy there buddy. Check out #217 and #209. ;-)

RIP Ford, re Alamo post

Sorry, I got off to a late start this morning & didn't check lgf thoroughly. I shoulda known that it would be well parsed here before I ever got to it!

The only LGF hat tip I think I was ever eligible for was the death of Bob Zangas, and I'm actually glad I didn't get it. >:^( Too high a price for fleeting worldly glory...

People,

The reason that this Marine, and American forces in general, are wary about civilians is because that is how America fights, and that is how America wins.

When the Nazis invaded the Ukraine, they were welcomed as liberators, freeing the people from the Russian, and more recently Communist, boot. The Germans, who were fighting for territory, not to defeat the Soviets per se, went on to virtually enslave the people to the point that they practically welcomed the Soviets back in.

America doesn't fight that way. That's not how to win a war of liberation, and it is arguably even a lousy way to win a war of conquest. It is utterly incompatible with Western military doctrine.

The end result of this will be like the invasion itself. When the US bombed downtown urban areas, there was world outrage, and I'm sure that Iraqis who depended on Arab media for information were certain the Americans were destroying civilians intentionally. Later, when there was time to actually look at what happened, they saw that the US went far out of its way to limit damage to military targets. This brought many people to our side, and, over time, it is what will win over the Middle East. It will, in the end, make those same Marines safer.

Obviously, civilians will die in this, and I mean real civilians, not the parade of corpses of males 16-35 we're going to see called civilians in the press in the coming week. Many of those people will be killed by Iraqis (who the heck do *you* think is more likely to miss and hit a civilian - a Marine rifleman or some kid with an AK-47 whose never been trained). Some will, no doubt, be killed by Americans, either in close air support operations or by the rifles and machine guns. But eventually, the ones not shooting will realize they have no reason to start. The ones who did shoot will be gasping theirr last breath in an Iraqi gutter.

We want our enemies terrified, and our friends grateful. We have both in country right now, and neither group feels quite what it should. The radicals are attacking because they think they can force the Americans out, or at least to negotiate. The friendlies, unfortunately, feel the same way. In Falouja, we can prove them both wrong.

This Marine understands that.

May God watch over him, and bring him and his men home safely, and may God bless the United States Marines. I wasn't USMC, but I have always thought they were our best. They are so, because of men like this.

-BF

#233 papijoe

I wish I had something better to toast you guys with than cold Starbucks!

In about 60 minutes I will pick up the slack for you and make mine a double :-)

#227 JD

My thoughts exactly. Well Said.

OT
just a thought about final victory ive noticed on the left people who think when bin laden is gone/proven dead the war will be over this kind of thinking is wrong there needs to be a goal for victory imho victory can only be when mosques everywhere treat jihad doctrine like germans in 1946 treated the nazi salute it needs to be unconditional and final only then will peace through victory on the WOT be achieved
what say you

I wholeheartedly agree with JimmyTheClaw. We will never be safe from the Islamo-facists until their culture is completely destroyed.

I am a liberal and proud of it. Sadly...as in the Civil War...the Republican Party is now the only place for true liberals.

FYI, crack kills.

Fallujah - America's Jenin. Let's hope we don't lose as many good men in this fight by fighting for the press. At least it looks like we're committed to winning this one.

G-d bless our troops and this fight.

>still kept coming out of the rice paddies to kick ass.

This is entirely untrue and universities should be denied federal grants if they teach this nonsense (high schools should not get money at all teaching this canard).

The North Vietnamese Army was a defeated organization in 1973 when the Paris Peace Treaty was signed. The Viet Cong itself had been destroyed in 1968 during the Tet Offensive. Thus, there was no "noble savage" coming out of any rice paddies anymore by the end of the war.

The only reason why North Vietnam eventually *won* in Vietnam was because the American Left Wing Progressives had taken a firm hold on the Democratic Party (as they have now done so again)...and they and their media cohorts made DAMN SURE that South Vietnam was totally betrayed by the Congress after Nixon was "taken care of."

Because the Vietnam War had become politicized in this way, the Democrats abandoned 2.5 Million people to their executions at the hands of communists...and thus the Democrats abandoned all the liberal principles that had once made liberalism mean something.

I am a liberal and proud of it. Sadly...as in the Civil War...the Republican Party is now the only place for true liberals.

I honestly believe that, since the Repeal of the Southeast Asia Act was the defining moment when the Democratic Party abandoned all pretense of honor...we need to enact laws or guidelines to at least have the Vietnam War taught truthfully in our schools and offer incentives that it not be taught mendaciously overseas.

You can see by Sadr's invocation of Vietnam in a speech today...that Americans will continue to die because of the way the Democrats politically forced Nixon to cut and run in Indochina and sold 2.5 Million people to their deaths.

nixon ran on the platform of withdrawal from the war. What crack are you smoking?

As for your little revisionist history, the Tet offensive destroyed the NVA? I guess the Easter offensive was conducted by rabid rabbits?

In terms of casualty ratios, we were destroying them. In terms of military gains, we were pretty much ahead. But in all the ways that counted- considering we were fighting to save the country, not annihilate it in the process- we were behind. The NVA had broad grassroots support, because it was a nationalistic movement, albeit one supported by Communist nations, and Communist in character. Vietnam, after all, had been under the French thumb for a long, long time, and we weren't gaining any popularity by cleaning up after the Frogs. The South Vietnamese govt, as a result, was not very popular, from Diem onwards. Our allies were unenthusiastic and relied almost completely on us. We had to destroy the political support for the NVA in order to really win, and in that theatre, the only theatre that ended up counting, we lost.

#239 Rayra: Hey, something along those lines has some promise. Thanks for the info.

#239 Rayra

6 months. Biometric information recorded. Explained very clearly to him the situation. Demand he give his parole to a Muslim cleric, and turn him loose, with the clear declaration and understanding that if he is picked up a second time in a combat zone, or conducting attacks, he will be executed.

I think that I would hold them in detention a little longer than 6 mos - a year. At hard labor - preferably rebuilding infrastructure.

Otherwise, that's one of the best ideas I've seen on addressing the problem.

That's the most we can do, without creating more of him.

I don't think that our actions are all that central in creating more of them. The radical fundalmentalists that we are fighting have done too well in recruiting on their own.

#236 The Sanity Inspector

No worries, LGF seems to be moving at a lightning speed lately. It's hard to keep up. I just might have to quit my job if this gets any faster.

It's gettin' mighty trollish in here. Did Senator JoKe put his foot in his mouth again?

#242 Rayra: All the bombs we dropped in Baghdad last year were "immoral" acts, because we didn't close to rifle and grenade range? I can see the political angle for restraint, not the moral one. But note, I'm not talking about leveling a city or city blocks, but taking out a single building where we know the armed enemy is.

Come to think of it, what's the moral justification for sending a marine into range of the gunmen firing at him, so that he can shoot grenades into a building with civilians in it? Those grenades are going to kill civvies too, unless you're thinking of the gunmen being in different rooms.

And out of nowhere, I wonder if we're trying out the OICW grenade launcher (or whatever it's called), with the laser range-finder and remote detonation feature. That thing sounds like it could be a grunt's best friend.

#254 BH

It seems that any thread dealing with any aspect of the US military just opens the floodgates for these POS.

#196 Rayra: OK, now they're detained. Now what? "It wasn't me." How long til this guy is released to pick up another AK or RPG and start shooting at our people? 24 hours? 72?

Compared to battlefied operations against real armies, where the enemy wears a uniform, there are no civilians, and he is killed or captured for the duration, this seems like a helluva risk, even as good as our guys are. Enemy gets to shoot at you, then gets to keep his life and freedom, even after you've thoroughly and fairly defeated him in very tough conditions.

rarely are battles fought in such clear-cut, nice conditions. These aren't the Napoleonic wars, nor are they WW1, or WW2, which, by the way, both had horrendous civilian casualty ratios. Hardly anyone is going to fight Americans anymore with nice, uniformed armies- they know they dont have the strength, so they infiltrate the population and use that as cover. Its tough, but thats how modern warfare is going to be.

Oh, and be careful with your logic. Actively using civilian shields is incredibly reprehensible and should be treated as such. But lets say you have an army barracks and some AA guns in the middle of a crowded city. Is it acceptable, by extension of your logic, to carpet-bomb the entire city to destroy that barracks? Do you expect all military targets to go and plant themselves in the middle of nowhere?

I'd say theres a balance to be had between protecting our troops lives and minimizing civilian casualties. It isnt at either end, but its there. Especially in an offensive war. If we were fighting for the safety of America itself, all stops would be pulled of course.

Reading that letter brought tears to my eyes. It makes me retch to think of all the truely evil crap that is being spewed out by the dirty, disgusting, revolting, shit-eating, hate-mongering, filthy, cowardly, unclean, anti-war, anti-US, anti-freedom, anti-civilization, and anti-life-itself worms in America, and throughout the world, while these brave soldiers are going out there and putting their lives on the line in the name of everything the worms are trying to destroy.

When you are done over there, guys, we've got some cleaning up to do over here, so don't be gone too long. GO GET 'EM!!!

The "curtis lemay" Morlock was using a Swedish account.

Man, I hate when the LLL keep using Vietnam as an example for the war the US lost. It really burns my ass.

Hey if we are going to bring up recent history, why not the war of 1812? We Canadians beat you guys good.
AND YOU NEVER CAME BACK FOR SECONDS!

Of course it just encouraged us to sell you decent beer, and shop at your malls on every holiday we can.

I guess you didn't have marines then...maybe never mind.

Model (#223):

And I truly despise those whose asses aren't on the line and never will be, who say "I know it endangers our boys needlessly, but tough luck. It may not be required by the law, but I want them to face needless danger while they risk their lives... so I'll be the caring hero in this."

Isn't it remarkable that, when Hutton Gibson's son is nowhere to be found in the discussion, I agree with you 100%?

Charles -- Thanks for posting the letter. "No better friend, no worse enemy."

#259 Buck:

I guess you didn't have marines then...maybe never mind.

Actually, we did. USMC was founded in 1775.

Of course it just encouraged us to sell you decent beer

At this point, I will hold American beer up against Canadian brew any day! (This was not true up until the 1980s).

#259

If I recall my history right, Canada was still a colony of Great Britain in 1812. During that War we fought the British, not the Canadian Army. Further more, as I recall, we resoundedly whipped their asses in the Battle of New Orleans.

Who cares about their civvies? If they were G-d fearin people they would have sorted this out themselves long ago.

They're a barbarous, uncivilized throng, I say we do whatever it takes to restore order even if we flatten Falluja with a MOAB. That'll show em what America is all about.

GO USMC, kill em all, let G-d sort em out!

A main point on which I disagree with America's approach to war since WWII is the insistence on fighting wars to liberate other countries. This should NOT be the reason why we fight. Liberating another country is okay as a side effect, but the only valid justification for war is self defense (including proactive and preemptive measures).

In the fight against radical Islam, the threat to America is clearcut and real, and we know where the main sources of that threat are. Those main sources are demonstrably NOT Afghanistan or Iraq. This makes fighting for _their_ liberation doubly wrong.

While our boys are dying trying to liberate Iraq, the main sources of the threat to America are going untouched (and in fact, are funding, fueling and manning the opposition in Iraq and elsewhere).

What we should be doing with our military is destroying the main sources of the threat, not risking our butts fighting the fringes.

Spending billions of dollars stolen from Americans to liberate as a primary goal is simply _obscene_. Terminate the threat, and then leave them to their own devices.

Mark Peters

Rayra:

I haven't read the whole thread yet - as I'm off and on today - but I have to ask... When do you sleep? I see you on here ALL the time, including at like 2 am.

What gives you your energy and where can I get it? That is, as long as it doesn't open husband up for a security clearance review...

#256 gonzo :

Oh, and be careful with your logic. Actively using civilian shields is incredibly reprehensible and should be treated as such. But lets say you have an army barracks and some AA guns in the middle of a crowded city. Is it acceptable, by extension of your logic, to carpet-bomb the entire city to destroy that barracks? Do you expect all military targets to go and plant themselves in the middle of nowhere?

First, it's not my logic, it's the Laws of Armed Combat, and the Geneva Conventions. Second, no. There are proportionality considerations in those laws and theories. You're not allowed to use a daisy-cutter to take out a jeep if you can do it effectively with an RPG or some other method that doesn't have so much over-kill where civilians are concerned.

Do I expect military targets to plant themselves in the middle of nowhere? The Geneva Conventions do, if the target wants to be protected under them. You can't have a convoy of tank, ambulance, tank, ambulance, tank... and then cry foul because an ambulance was taken out with a tank, or instead of one because of an understandable lack of precision. You can't put AAA on a hospital and expect to have the gun protected by the law. Again, you're thinking backwards in my opinion. The first persons responsible for the protection of a populace are their own forces. When they go out of their way to endanger their own people, the legal and moral onus is on them. And when a shooting war is raging around you that you have no part of, would you keep your family around an ammo dump, or move them to safer ground knowing damn well ammo storage is a likely and legitimate target?

Now yes, you can have military forces in a civilian area. We do this too. But again, you can't scream "no fair" when the enemy takes them out, and civilians get hurt in the process. When there's reasonable threat this scenario can happen, it's up to the locals to tell their civilians to move, to move themselves, or to assume the risk.

None of this is done to inhibit either military force, because in the real world, this is seldom going to happen. It is done so each side can have some hope of sparing their own innocents, should the choose to make this a priority. It also makes it much clearer to see when one side is going out of its way to cause needless slaughter.

then leave them to their own devices.

The problem is that they have been left to their own devices since the end of WWII and it culminated in 9/11. We have to take an active role in the M.E. for our own safety. The problem is that we have a bunch of totalitarian regimes who have become experts directing their subjects anger at the U.S. and Israel. We have to remove the Regimes. The people in this region of the world have proud ancient cultures. We can't go in there, blow them to shreds, tell them to change their governments and expect them to like us. It won't work.

The best thing to do is establish an Arab democracy. It will encourage people in other M.E. nations to change their form of government. Look at Iran. A democratic Iraq would be the end of the Iranian Mullah Regime. Why do you think they are fighting us in Iraq?

"Leaving them to their own devices" would be a disaster. It would be similar to the U.S. attitude toward Europe after WWI and we all know where that road went.

This stinks.

POWs Not Entitled to Iraqi Funds, Justice Says

…Justice Department lawyers argued yesterday that President Bush's decision to remove Iraq from the list of terrorism-sponsoring states nullified a $653 million judgment awarded to former U.S. prisoners of war tortured by the Iraqi military during the 1991 Persian Gulf War….

WAPost

"There is absolute no way on this Earth that we can morally, ethically or politically kill these Baathists and Jihadis with ZERO casualties on our own side."

My view is that the above is the ONLY moral outcome.

It is objectively immoral to have a policy that permits even one American to die in order that casualties on the other side be minimized. The purpose of the American government is to secure the rights of Americans, not of Iraqis.

Mark Peters

My apologies for omitting the "OT"

Clean up in aisle #250.

I'm always amazed at how many lies they can fit into a tiny space.

Just curious: has anyone noticed that the media continue to refer to the dead insurgents as "Iraqis" thus leaving out the possibility of non-Iraqi insurgents?

#234 The Ghost of General Phil Sheridan 4/8/2004 01:37PM PST

What you don't know about us is breathtaking. When your Jihadi friends push us hard enough, and they will --its only a matter of time, you'll learn that you statement is astonishingly inaccurate. If you want to be prepared for what to expect, read about my Shenandoah Valley campaign in 1864 and my commanding officer's (Lt. Gen. US Grant) instructions as to my mission. I succeeded in my mission.

Why, Little Phil, I haven't seen you since we quelled those Native American Indians back during the Indian Wars. Talk about guerilla tactics, boy! but we won the peace in the end...

Ghost of Gen John Gibbon, USA, RET, RIP

Kevin Shook,

If it wasn't clear from the rest that I wrote, "leave them to their own devices" means terminate real threats to us to ensure our safety, but don't spend any money or lives helping them rebuild. In other words, leave them alone _unless_ they pose a threat to us ... then kill the threat. If the threat is big enough, that might even require that we occupy their land for a time.

That should be the gist of the entire American foreign policy, in my view. The U.S. government is not the world's policeman - it exists for the purpose of securing the rights of American citizens, and that's it.

Mark Peters

"Attack the enemy with utmost audacity!"
Gen Patton (ok not a marine but def someone who knew how to win a war)

Re my #273 - not you Athos!

It was there a minute ago but must have been deleted very quickly. I was sure I had the post number right but it is nowhere to be seen now. Oh well, so much the better.

#275 Mine

I do hope that any Native Americans do understand I was trying to make a point here about "Guerilla" tactics and not to defame Native Americans.

I have the upmost respect for the Native American culture.

#282 Rayra,

I have to agree with you on this one, Being a POW does not mean you have entitlement to sue the enemy. It opens up a strange precedent.

I also disagreed with the administration giving out upwards of 1 million to each 9/11 victim families.

#283 Rayra

Outstanding. Well said.

#278 Renna

Thanks, I was wondering how / where I went over the edge.

Then I saw Rayra's #254 referred to my post #251.

#282 Rayra:

I agree, also. We went around asking countries to relieve Iraq's debts because the Iraqis shouldn't have to pay for Saddam's policies, we shouldn't make them pay for his war crimes either.