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The Granite of Mauthausen

Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 7:16:21 am PDT

LGF reader Ronnie Schreiber posted this powerful letter by Fred Friendly, who would become the president of CBS News, written in 1945 when he was a master sergeant with the American Army unit that liberated the Mauthausen concentration camp.

***

May 19, 1945

Dear Mother,

In just a few days I will be in an airplane on my way back to the APO to which you write me. Before I leave Europe, I must write this letter and attempt to convey to you that which I saw, felt and gasped at as I saw a war and a frightened peace stagger into a perilous existence. I have seen a dead Germany. If it is not dead it is certainly ruptured beyond repair. I have seen the beer hall where the era of the inferno and hate began and as I stood there in the damp moist hall where Nazidom was spawned, I heard only the dripping of a bullet-pierced beer barrel and the ticking of a clock which had already run out the time of the bastard who made the Munich beer hall a landmark. I saw the retching vomiting of the stone and mortar which had once been listed on maps as Nurnheim, Regensberg, Munich, Frankfurt, Augusburg, Lintz, and wondered how a civilization could ever again spring from cities so utterly removed from the face of the earth by weapons the enemy taught us to use at Coventry and Canterbury. I have met the German, have examined the storm trooper, his wife and his heritage of hate, and I have learned to hate - almost with as much fury as the G.I. who saw his buddy killed at the Bulge, almost as much as the Pole from Bridgeport who lost 100 pounds at Mauthausen, Austria. I have learned now and only now that this war had to be fought. I wish I might have done more. I envy with a bottomless spirit the American soldier who may tell his grandchildren that with his hands he killed Germans.

That which is in my heart now I want you and those dear to us know and yet I find myself completely incapable of putting it into letter form. I think if I could sit down in our living room or the den at 11 President, I might be able to convey a poertion of the dismal, horrible and yet titanic mural which is Europe today. Unfortunately, I won’t be able to do that for months or maybe a year, and by then the passing of time may dim the memory. Some of the senses will live just so long as I do - some of the sounds, like the dripping beer, like the firing of a Russian tommy gun, will always bring back the thought of something I may try to forget, but never will be able to do.

For example, when I go to the Boston Symphony, when I hear waves of applause, no matter what the music is, I shall be traveling back to a town near Lintz where I heard applause unequalled in history, and where I was allowed to see the ordeal which our fellow brothers and sisters of the human race have endured. To me Poland is no longer the place where Chopin composed, or where a radio station held out for three weeks - to me Poland is a place from which the prisoners of Mauthausen came. When I think of the Czechs, I will think of those who were butchered here, and that goes for the Jews, the Russians, Austrians, the people of 15 different lands, - yes, even the Germans who passsed through this Willow Run of death. This was Mauthausen. I want you to remember the word... I want you to know, I want you to never forget or let our disbelieving friends forget, that your flesh and blood saw this. This was no movie. No printed page. Your son saw this with his own eyes and in doing this aged 10 years.

Mauthausen was built with a half-million rocks which 150,000 prisoners - 18,000 was the capacity - carried up on their backs from a quarry 800 feet below. They carried it up steps so steep that a Captain and I walked it once and were winded, without a load. They carried granite and made 8 trips a day... and if they stumbled, the S.S. men pushed them into the quarry. There are 285 steps, covered with blood. They called it the steps of death. I saw the shower room (twice or three times the size of our bathroom), a chamber lined with tile and topped with sprinklers where 150 prisoners at a time were disrobed and ordered in for a shower which never gushed forth from the sprinklers because the chemical was gas. When they ran out of gas, they merely sucked all of the air out of the room. I talked to the Jews who worked in the crematory, one room adjacent, where six and seven bodies at a time were burned. They gave these jobs to the Jews because they all died anyhow, and they didn’t want the rest of the prisoners to know their own fate. The Jews knew theirs, you see.

I saw the living skeletons, some of whom regardless of our medical corps work, will die and be in piles like that in the next few days. Malnutrition doesn’t stop the day that food is administered. Don’t get the idea that these people here were all derelicts, all just masses of people... some of them were doctors, authors, some of them American citizens. A scattered few were G.I.s. A Navy lieutenant still lives to tell the story. I saw where they lived; I saw where the sick died, three and four in a bed, no toilets, no nothing. I saw the look in their eyes. I shall never stop seeing the expression in the eyes of the anti-Franco former prisoners who have been given the job of guarding the S.S. men who were captured.

And how does the applause fit in? Mother, I walked through countless cell blocks filled with sick, dying people - 300 in a room twice the size of our living room as as we walked in - there was a ripple of applause and then an inspiring burst of applause and cheers, and men who could not stand up sat and whispered - though they tried to shout it - Vive L’Americansky... Vive L’Americansky... the applause, the cheers, those faces of men with legs the size and shape of rope, with ulcerated bodies, weeping with a kind of joy you and I will never, I hope, know. Vive L’Americansky... I got a cousin in Milwaukee... We thought you guys would come... Vive L’Americansky... Applause... gaunt, hopeless faces at last filled with hope. One younger man asked something in Polish which I could not understand but I did detect the word “Yit”... I asked an interpreter what he said - The interpreter blushed and finally said, “He wants to know if you are a Jew.” When I smiled and stuck out my mitt and said “yes”... he was unable to speak or show the feeling that was in his heart. As I walked away, I suddenly realized that this had been the first time I had shaken hands with my right hand. That, my dear, was Mauthausen.

I will write more letter in days to come. I want to write one on the Russians. I want to write and tell you how I sat next to Patton and Tolbukhin at a banquet at the Castle of Franz Josef. I want to write and tell you how the Germans look in defeat, how Munich looked in death, but those things sparkle with excitement and make good reading. This is my Mauthausen letter. I hope you will see fit to let Bill Braude and the folks read it. I would like to think that all the Wachenheimers and all the Friendlys and all our good Providence friends would read it. Then I want you to put it away and every Yom Kippur I want you to take it out and make your grandchildren read it.

For, if there had been no America, we, all of us, might well have carried granite at Mauthausen.

All my love,
F.F.

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151 comments

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1 Dave Ray  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:22:03am

There's not much you can add to a piece like that except thanking people like Charles for posting it and giving us the opportunity to read it.

2 AG in Houston  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:24:43am

Unbelievable.

This should be read at dinner tables across America and the world on Thanksgiving Day.

The USA is worth this bit of gratitude.

3 Barking Pumpkin  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:25:33am

[wiping away tears]

Thank you Charles.

4 Glen Wishard  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:26:14am
... If we were ever to forget, repress or falsify what happened, our past would return to us over and again, unvanquished, and would prevent us and our descendants from building our future, in a way that is right and worthy of man.

I say this to you as someone who survived the death block of Mauthausen as by a miracle.

- Simon Wiesenthal

5 Poitiers-Lepanto  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:26:26am

Breathtaking.

6 apotheosis  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:30:47am

Powerful. Too rarely we see depth of emotion conveyed so clearly these days, without any equivocation or pandering; a single damning theme carried through without apologizing for the evil or mitigating their guilt.

Thank you, Charles.

7 Norwegian kafir  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:31:48am

Excellent reading. Three cheers for the US of A, without which I would probably be writing in a German or Russian blog today. If they even had blogs......

Committee to Defend Women's Rights in the Middle East , female ex-muslims against Islamists:

[Link: www.middleastwomen.org...]

Excellent book about Islam:

[Link: www.secularislam.org...]

8 The Dread Pirate Gryphon  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:33:20am

My fear is that not even eyewitness accounts like this are enough to stem the tide of hatred sweeping back in, threatening to engulf us again.

9 brianstien  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:34:14am

Wow. I'm speechless. It's being emailed to everyone in my address book.

10 Right Wing Conspirator  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:35:14am

Thank you Charles for posting this. Powerful is an understatement for a letter such as this. And thank you Ronnie Schreiber for sharing this with us.

11 soccermom  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:37:00am

OT: CNN has a new poll:

Are the U.S. and coalition casualty figures in Iraq higher than you expected? It's about evenly divided at this point.

Go vote.

12 Unnecessary Research  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:37:35am

The late Fred Friendly also did the famous PBS public affairs seminars.

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

[Link: archives.cjr.org...]

He is not to be confused with Fred Fielding, who serves on the 9/11 Commission.

[Link: www.9-11commission.gov...]

Incidentally, Fred Friendly's son, David T. Friendly, was executive producer on the movie Digging to China, starring Kevin Bacon, proving once again that everyone in the world is within six degrees of Kevin Bacon.

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

13 Kragar (proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:40:37am

Thank you

14 macula  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:40:56am

There was a documentary on the BBC (sometimes they do get it right) last night that showed how Orwell and Churchill were 2 of the very few who foresaw and warned of the dangers of Nazism.

To paraphrase some of their words.
It cannot be appeased or reasoned with. We must fight. Our way of life and the future of western civilisation is at stake.

All throughout the documentary everytime they said Hitler or the Nazi's I heard Islamism instead. Poland was Sep 11th. Chamberlain was the EU. It was a perfect fit.

We are facing the same/worse dangers we faced in the mid 1930's and yet we have learned nothing from history.
Where is our Churchill in this battle?

Never forget? I think Europe and large parts of the US have deliberate amnesia.

15 Rob  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:43:38am

On Wednesday I listened to a guest speaker who experienced the Holocaust first hand. All I could think was "How the hell can anyone, compare anyone to the Nazis after this?" Thirteen million people slaughtered. The entire, total and complete disregard for human life is nothing short of appaling.

People need to realize that this same type of hatred of life, this veritable 'cult of death' exists in our enemy- the Islamofascists- today.

Any culture that hates life is, in its origin, evil. No need to mince with words there.

16 gymnast  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:43:39am

This time, the world still has a choice. What will it choose. What will our nation choose?

17 J. Lichty  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:44:47am

One thing he said in there reminds me of an accout of a camp by a Jewish liberator, when he came upon a Jewsih survivor.

The survivor asked the GI if he was Jewish. Expecting gratitude from the survivor, the survivor instead slapped the Jewish GI and said -- "you're too late."

Of course he was right. We were too late to stop this. We had our chance to stop this. The warning signs were there. What we can do now is learn.

Hitler's progeny, the Orcs of the middle east are along with their masters in Europe, attempting to finish the job.

The warning signs are there. The same warning signs as the last time.

I have no hope that the world will wake. I have no hope that the world cares. The only thing that gives me hope is that we have guns now. We now only need to remember what Friendly saw in 1945, we need only listen to what the world has promised to do to us, we need to remember that we have a right to live.

18 Annelid[deleted]  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:46:07am
19 ch.speicher  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:50:58am

grazie di essistere, charles.

dont let the mob get you down!

-------------------------------------------------- ---------------

NO MORE NAZISM!!! would have been the right answer to the inconceivable crimes of my ancestors

"no more war" was/is the cheap and nasty elusion

I dedicate my life to the britons and americans

that made an end to the nazi terror regime that killed my jewish brothers and sisters

I dedicate my life to the "soulless capitalists"

that made an end to stalinism my polish and czech friends had to suffer for too long out of german guilt

shame on the leftist history fakers

20 Ken  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:54:48am

This should be required reading for all Europeans. Do not forget the past..........

21 Abu do you love  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:55:32am

I am just stunned.

such clarity, but so many do not see.

22 Hempstore Rob  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:56:13am

...Nothing like starting a new day with a good cry. I've never really been able to come to grips with the fact that people did this. My mother had an uncle who fought through Europe, starting at Normandy. He, too, witnessed the sheer barbarity of the German people -make no mistake-all of germany and all of its people were complicit in this state madated genocide- and was so taken aback by it that he never got over it. He couldn't even talk about it. The demons he encountered liberating Europe chased him the rest of his life. RIP, uncle Richard. You're my hero. We will never forget...or will we?

23 Helen  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:56:30am

Thanks for posting this. We face today an ideology, Islam, that is more corrosive and deadly than Nazism and Communism combined. This letter needs to be recited once a year at Easter so that the world never forgets.

24 Carla  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 5:58:49am

...in tears.

Thank you, Charles. You do great work.

25 gerry  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:05:03am

This should be read aloud on Yom Hashoa, Holocaust Memorial Day, Monday, 19 April, in schools all over America, so that when those of us who lived during that time are gone, our children and their children will remember for all time.

26 Aunt Myrtle  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:06:05am

humbling

27 Norwegian kafir  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:06:28am

#17, the world WILL awake. Unfortunately, not in time to avoid major blood shed, especially in Europe. But we will win in the end.

I also think the Islamofascists are busy creating new enemies in East Asia these days:

[Link: www.faithfreedom.org...]

The violence we see now in the Islamic world stems from desperation, the death throes of a dying creed:

[Link: www.city-journal.org...]

When Islam breaks down

Islam in the modern world is weak and brittle, not strong: that accounts for its so frequent shrillness. The Shah will, sooner or later, triumph over the Ayatollah in Iran, because human nature decrees it, though meanwhile millions of lives will have been ruined and impoverished. The Iranian refugees who have flooded into the West are fleeing Islam, not seeking to extend its dominion, as I know from speaking to many in my city. To be sure, fundamentalist Islam will be very dangerous for some time to come, and all of us, after all, live only in the short term; but ultimately the fate of the Church of England awaits it. Its melancholy, withdrawing roar may well (unlike that of the Church of England) be not just long but bloody, but withdraw it will. The fanatics and the bombers do not represent a resurgence of unreformed, fundamentalist Islam, but its death rattle.


Ex-muslims are appearing even in the heart of the Arab world:

[Link: www.ladeeni.net...]

Arab Infidels is a humanist intellectual group

We will win. Islam is dead, it just doesn't know it yet.

28 Frazetta_girl  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:14:48am

Thanks for letting me read this.

I have often thought that our new enemy is the old enemy wearing a new skin. Nazism, Japanese Imperialism, Stalinism, Islamic fundamentalism -- they are exactly the same once you peel away the outer layer. They are evil, evil, evil.

I pray every day for our President, our country, and our troops. I'll pray even harder today.

29 zombie's friend  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:15:55am

The applause is what got to me. The image of those gaunt survivors applauding, saying "We knew you'd come."

What a changed world we live in today, where the US is demonized, mocked, blamed for every evil everywhere. What did our veterans in past wars fight and die for, when idiots and morons and evil minds all over the world hate us and want to see us leveled? I ask you. What would Mr. Friendly have thought if he had seen crowds of French and Spanish and British and, worst of all, Americans back home (never would have happened back then, of course) marching down the streets gleefully shouting their support for the enemy?

I. Ask. You.

It isn't pretty but I've come to envision a time, sooner or later, at which those in Europe who currently love to hate us are going to need our help desperately. And we will fold our arms and walk away and leave them to their fate.

Never again.

30 thelibertarian  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:20:41am

From "The War Prayer" - Mark Twain

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle – be Thou near them! With them, in spirit, we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it – for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

31 realwest Johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:25:01am

Charles and Ronnie : Thank you.
I want, feel a need, to say more, but I'm literally sobbing and can barely see the monitor.

And I say, once again, GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

And both of you.

Thank You.

32 Elendil of Númenorë  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:28:54am
33 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:34:51am

I know some hard leftists in Quebec who are holocaust deniers. They read books on the stuff and are convinced the holocause barely happened, and if it did happen, the Jews were behind it.

and the left sees Bush as Hitler. Disgusting.

34 papijoe  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:35:29am

#32 Elendil of Númenorë

It's not over till the flat lady sings!

35 foreign devil  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:36:16am

Only a truly spiritual person with the soul of a poet could have rendered such horror in such magnificent terms. But the sentiments expressed in this letter could apply equally to those Americans fighting in Iraq today. They are also in the heart of darkness, at the throat of the beast which refuses to die and sends out its acolytes to lie to the world and spread rumours about America's supposed atrocities because it knows atrocity well. The familiarity with evil which allows these acolytes of Islam to describe the supposed sins of America is why we must pursue the beast and drive a stake through its heart. As evil as Nazi Germany was, it stood up for all to see, proud of its efficiency as a killing machine.

Islam is slyer and more secretive, it knows what it does is evil which is why it dissembles and hides its own perversions, fearing the disgust of the world and the disgrace of being caught out. Because of this it is harder to deal with than Nazi Germany.

America has been a beacon for the world in this terrible clash of good and evil and its youth has been sent to a terrible place to confront this darkness on behalf of the world. Thank God for those young people and for America's President Bush and his moral clarity. Without them both the world would have been a victim of the most inhumane, suffocating ideology in its history, and having lived through Nazidom, that is saying a lot.

One day the other countries not in the coalition will look back and realize the debt they owe America and its sons and daughters; one day--but that day is not yet and the fight is not over. If only some of these nations would wake up and help ease the burden of this war.

Thanks for reminding us, Charles, that once there were people like Mr. Friendly who also had moral clarity and could put it into words so that we would be warned in the years to come that evil does exist and all the wishing and political correctness in the world will not deal with it; it must be defeated with blood and the sword. God help us defeat it again!

36 salomeh  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:36:50am

When I was in High School, we had a project in History to talk to a vet (any vet, any war) about their experiences. I was the only one in class who spoke to a WWII vet, my father. He had never told anyone stateside about this, as he thought NO ONE would understand or believe him. It was the first time I saw my father sob deeply. He spoke of taking a dispatch from France to Germany after the surrender. He visited a friend of his who was stationed/assigned to the camps in the aftermath. My father spoke in exactly the same tone as this letter. I will never forget. God Bless America.

37 pbird  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:39:22am

Charles, thanks for letting me see this letter. I feel as if the authors purposes in writing it are being accomplished by your posting it, at this late date.

38 Voidseeker  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:42:12am

My soul aches for those that lived and died in that dark time. I cannot help but weep for them, for their loss, for their struggle, and for the gift they tried to give us: a world where it would "never again" be allowed to happen.

If one can read that letter without being moved, I am sure that I do not want to know that person.

If one can read that letter and not see the parallel in our day and age with Militant Islam and the terrorists it spawn, I am sure that I will never know/understand that person.

If one can read that letter and try to deny that the Holocaust happened, I am damn sure that that person is not worth knowing.

Thank you Charles, more then I can express. Thank you Ronnie Schreiber for helping this voice span time to speak to me and shake my soul today.

39 German Observer  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:44:05am

All I can add to these comments are a few photos of Mauthausen:

[Link: www.scrapbookpages.com...]

40 centaur  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:44:09am

Would (if only) this give the "ankle biters" some perspective. Of course they would never --ever -- link to this post or any of the above comments as an example of the content here at lgf, not to mention the core of why lgf exists.

41 Sergio  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:45:28am

How appropriate that Islamofascists should find such a comfortable home and bast-of-operations in Germany.

42 Joel Terry  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:47:55am

Thank you both, Ronnie and Charles. If that doesn't sober a person, then he or she is inhuman.

#4, #14, #20, and #29: How true.

We've all heard those great, noble words, "Never Again." To a lot of us, they are rightly etched on our hearts, minds, and souls. Pathetically, many people have heard those words so many times that repetition has wrung out the very meaning; consequently, we're on the verge of "Never Again" horrifically becoming just again because of the lack of foresight/stupidity/outright evil--take your pick--of the political left the world over.

Even more pathetic is the fact that we're barely sixty years removed from this lowest point in mankind's existence when he decided to shovel his conscience along with bodies of his fellow man into mass graves...and we can see the diabolical gestation of it again.

I am speechless that the atrocities of three generations ago have been forgotten by so many so quickly. If we can't do any better than this, then to Hell with the human race.

But I have hope. Hope presupposed on the fact that it is up to those of us with some measure of perception, conscience, and yes, goodness of heart and spirit, to stop this madness of religion-bred insanity and annihilation without reason before it's too late.

Whatever it takes. Never again.

43 bolivar  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:48:06am

Charles, God bless you! This is something that needs to be emblazoned upon every persons soul! We cannot allow this to EVER HAPPEN AGAIN.

My father was stationed in the Philipines and though he would never talk about the horrible things that happened there he carried that pain and anguish to his grave. The total lack of compassion and concern for fellow human beings shown by the entire Axis war machine has had no equal in history - until now.

The Islamofascists for lack of a better name are on equal with these people and we must not waver or temper our resolve. They must be eliminated totally, completely and fully. There can be no equivocation on this issue - no half-hearted ventures will suffice. They will not reason, compromise or have mercy and should not be shown any.

I don't like seeing this in my psyche as I always try to see the good in people but, I can no longer see good in these "people".

44 big L  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:52:49am

the amazing thing is how thru a coincidence Mr Shreiber
came by the letter. From his post in a prior topic
he was at kinkos and the man was in front of him photo copying or paying the bill. He was making copies of it to read at the Passover seder. And Mr Schreiber promised he would read it at his ceremony if he could get a copy of it . And he did read it 2 X that Passover at different places.

I think it was William Shirer that said that to him the initial keys of the rise and power of Nazism was that the
Judiciary capitulated and allowed the reich to kill
mentally ill, disabled, deranged hospital patients
and that the newspapers just printed anything the party said without sources or editing or fact-checking.
The LLLs just say anything now,write anything to get it repeated and if I bring up anything that countermands what their dogma is, I find that the internet/news/tv is a phony and why do I believe those lies.
My neighbor says that it is the fault of the jews and that at least 500,000 iraquis have died and it is been hidden by Buhs and haliburton. This message is from of
a (formerly) intelligent (I thought) person. We don't talk too much now.
All these supporters of this new reich will be the first shot under sharia, because they will answer the door.

45 Bleeding heart conservative  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:55:28am

You know what amazes me , Charles?
In the post before this one, you refer to a lefty blogger calling you a Nazi. That same blogger, we can be sure, does not read this kind of letter, or care about what it says. He will skip this entry after reading the first few sentences, from the moment it praises the USA. That same blogger is unconcerned that the Islamofascism we are threatened by right now applauded Mauthausen, would like to reproduce Mauthausen, and mourns that Mauthausen was halted before it could finish the job.

Without a trace of irony, that blogger implies LGF's opposition to Hitler's ideological allies, the heirs apparent to the "final solution," is characteristic of-- a Nazi.

46 Matt K.  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 7:01:37am

One of my uncles spent two years in Mauthausen - he came back as a sceleton with no teeth, kicked out by a guard...

47 mommydoc  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 7:04:04am

Thank you, Charles and ronnie schreiber, for sharing this. I am moved beyond tears, beyond words. It points out why the US is, as much as Israel, a light unto the nations, and why we must continue to do what we can to rid the world of fascism, be it cloaked in communism, islamism, totalitarianism, or any other ism.

And anyone who can read this, or any other description of the camps and dare to compare Israel, Jews or our President to the Nazis has at best a severe learning disability, and at worst, true and irrevovable evil in their heart.

48 halldor  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 7:04:45am

Thank you for publishing this powerful and deeply moving letter.

49 Lyana  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 7:07:19am

THIS is why I come here. To know I'm not alone in vividly remembering, not alone in feeling a gathering storm that will probably be just as bad as it was before, most likely worse. To be reminded there are thousands of others who are ready and willing to stand and sacrifice for evil to beaten back again, whether on our shores or around the world. Thank you.

50 David Simon  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 7:12:28am

Wow. Thanks Ronnie Schreiber. Our brave young men and women in the Middle East are there to make sure that this letter is never written again.

51 realwest Johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 7:19:37am

##49 Lyana -
My eyes have cleared enough to enable me to read and post again (see my #31 above).
What Charles has provided here, and the "regulars" have fortified, over and over again, is a community of people who CARE!
It's not JUST a community of very, very bright people. It's not JUST a community of people who actually research AND think before they post.
It's a community of people who are HUMANE. Who genuinely care about other people. Who WANT to make the world a better place. As with me, many regulars are "stumbling" around in the dark; trying to find either a light switch or a candle.
I've received a lot of e-mails from people out here - almost all of them thoughtful and supportive. I've tried my best to be supportive and helpful out here, not, alas with any notable success. But I keep trying. There is no acceptable alternative.
Thanks, again, Charles and Ronnie.
and, again, God Bless America!

52 Abu Akmu  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 7:26:45am

Can anybody explain this to me?

I suddenly realized that this had been the first time I had shaken hands with my right hand.


Why would he have never shaken hands with his right hand before?

53 Marc  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 7:29:23am

Thank you, Charles.

There is no Passover Celebration in our Christian home. But I promise my Jewish friends this...my grandchildren will know the name of Fred Friendly.

54 Kimberly  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 7:32:57am

#45 - You are correct, but there's more. Posts like this one are exactly why the LLL's and Islamofascist-loving lefties hate LGF so much. Despite all their pissing and moaning about the .01% of comments on here that call for death and destruction of Islam, it is the powerful language of this letter - a clarion call for truth and wisdom that acknowledges the true evil in the world and the terrible responsibility that comes with America's awesome power - that will truly infuriate them.

If this site were, as some say it is, nothing but anti-Muslim fervor written by a bunch of bitter people on the losing side, the LLL's would ignore us. But they cannot fight back against these types of sentiments, and even though they are clueless, they are aware that this type of statement cannot be ignored.

Charles infuriates the LLL's because, by featuring this letter and its description of true evil, he demonstrates quite clearly that the LLL's po-mo statements and moral relativism and fashionable appeasement are pure garbage. Thank you, Charles (and Ronnie), for sharing that letter with us all.

55 selpaw  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 7:33:36am

Like many others, I lost family at Mauthausen. The pain will never go away. The idea that few learned anything from this more than exacerbates the pain. To live each day knowing we live in a world driven with the intent to rob democracy and freedom, to mock truth and righteousness, hurts to the core.

.....and for what, this?
Prisoners were marched along this route through the town of Mauthausen from the train depot to the camp of the same name. Often children would stand at the side of the road, jeer and thrown stones at them.

Thank you Charles, Ronnie Schreiber and all the rest who are working franticly with every breath and at all costs to show the world we must never forget.....and why-

56 Frank_Mtl  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 7:41:51am

Predestined names : Friendly... Hatem...

57 Annelid[deleted]  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 7:49:27am
58 selpaw  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 7:55:01am

From my post #55 I left the following off. Sorry.

How unimaginable and tragic palestinian children are being groomed for martyrdom, coddled in pure unadulterated hate and made to perform sick make believe plays on how to slaughter Jews. While at the same time we must never ever forget what was NOT CHILDS PLAY. We must see the contrast and the shocking similarities and some way show the world this is the direction we are traveling! (AGAIN)

We must stop them.

59 zorkmidden johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 7:59:34am

I've read this some years back, I don't remember where, and I'm so glad to see it on the LGF front page. It horrifies me to see that so many people today not only minimize and deny the Holocaust, they'd be perfectly happy to see it happen again.

60 Claudia  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 8:00:46am

Having come to live in Israel 25 years ago, I've made it a point to listen to my elders' stories and anecdotes of the war and the camps. It amazes me how many stories there are and how powerful they could be if made into movies.

My sister in law survived Auschwitz as a very young woman as has allowed me to see it through her eyes... even the triage by Dr. Mendele and the words exchanged with him.

My brother in law has an amazing story of running away from a forced walk through the forrests in Hungary after having told everyone in line that at the count of three everyone should run... and they did... some were shot by the German guards, but some at least got away.

My brother in law ran, and a young girl who had been walking behind him clung to him and they spent the next 2 years hiding together (eventually marrying once in Israel) in a farm loft - sheltered by the farmer's wife. The farmer's son brought them food once a day for 2 years.

That boy became a Communist Party official. When his daughter was in University in Moscow, my brother in law sent her money (a real ordeal!). He & his wife have come to Israel three times as guests of my brother in law.

A Greek neighbor has told me of her destroyed life. Many people are not aware that the Greek Jews were also carted off to the camps in the East.

A young woman with whom I worked when I first came to Israel told me that she was the product of her father's second marriage as his wife & children were all killed in the camps. He survived by being one of the Jews who incinerated the bodies. She told me that everynight he would have nightmares and would yell in his sleep...

I remember mentionning to an American friend of mine that there were many survivors in the mentals hospitals in Israel in the years following WWII. The thought had not occured to her and she wanted to know more.

Frankly, the children of Holocaust survivors have their own burdens to bear...

C.

61 Robert Dubh Nianque  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 8:00:58am

responding to message 30...

The Libertarian,

And you wish us, then, to submit to members of a religious/political faith who have waged war--via plane hijacking, hostage taking, terror attacks, etc.--against the West since 1967?

Robert Dubh Nianque

62 zorkmidden johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 8:37:43am

#60 Claudia

A Greek neighbor has told me of her destroyed life. Many people are not aware that the Greek Jews were also carted off to the camps in the East.

The Jewish communities in Northern Greece were almost totally annihilated. Greece had the highest percentage after Poland, in the extermination of Jews. Today there are very small communities left, and they live under highly anti-semitic conditons. Salonica, "The Mother of Israel", a Jewish city before WWII, didn't acknowledge its past until after "Schindler's List" came out and some of the survivors started speaking out and writing books. Today there's one small Holocaust monument in this city and it is usually covered with swastikas.

63 Recovering Romantic f.k.a. Gang of One  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 8:49:30am

Whoa. Taking in deep breaths so as not to lose it.

BTW Marc #53: perhaps you are unaware that you do bring in a bit of Judaism into your fine Christian home when celebrating Easter. I am sure you know that the Last Supper was a Passover Seder. For some reason, I am begining to sense that my Christian brothers and sisters are taking the reality of us Jews into a different realm. I have experienced real, genuine love, almost a sort of sincere regret and desire for absolution from my non-Jewish peers, especially after they have seem the "Passion of the Christ."
Imagine -- Christians and Jews healing the rift, and the wonders that will come from this reconciliation.

64 Jabberwock  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 8:50:18am

I hope nobody thinks the piece that No. 30 expresses the feelings of Mark Twain

If he indeed wrote it (source?), it was as sardonic irony.

65 Amy  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 8:52:09am

I encourage everyone to check out the Steven Spielberg Jewish Film Archive:

[Link: www.spielbergfilmarchive.org.il...]

There is a section on the Holocaust, as well as films on the birth of Israel (and the Arab attacks) and other topics as well. It's a real treasure trove of material, and more is being added all the time.

Spielberg is a mensch who puts his money where his heart is. Along with the thousands of hours of survivors' oral testimony that he has put together, this film archive will ensure that the world remembers.

Mauthausen is probably where my mother, her parents and her sister would have ended up had they not managed to get out of Vienna in time. Our relatives who stayed in Poland were not so fortunate, and there was no one at all left after the war there. I didn't understand why my grandmother cried so bitterly at Yizkor at Yom Kippur when I was five, but I do now. And I know that she was just as much a casualty of that genocide as she would have been had she been shot in some Polish forest with the rest of her family.

Thank you, Charles.

66 Gordon  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 8:55:47am

One question I had about the article (very minor):

As I walked away, I suddenly realized that this had been the first time I had shaken hands with my right hand.

I thought everybody shook with their right hand except for Bob Dole and others who couldn't. Does this have something to do with Judaism?

67 brianstien  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 8:56:38am

Mike Adams' column today dovetails nicely into this discussion:

...this nation would be in serious trouble if we had to fight another war like World War II today. That brave generation of men who stormed the beaches of Normandy has been replaced by a generation of metrosexuals trying to get in touch with their feminine side.

He's not impugning our servicemen & women. The comment is made in the context of a personal enounter he details in the essay.

68 Gordon  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:04:48am

#67 brianstien: If the Normandy beachmen were represenative of the general population, approximately 10% of the men storming the Normandy beaches were homosexuals.

I'm not quite sure what a "metrosexual" is...

69 Gordon  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:05:44am

And Fred Friendly doesn't mention it in his great letter, but there probably a few folks at Mauthausen who were there because of their sexual orientation.

70 brianstien  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:11:04am

#68 Gordon

What on earth does that have to do with anything?

71 Evil Otto  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:15:37am

My father was in the same unit that liberated Mauthausen, but he was seriously wounded a couple of weeks before it happened and didn't see the horror personally. I have pictures of his army buddies at the camp, though, and pictures of stacks of bodies.

Never again.

72 daltec  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:16:11am

In 1985 my family and I were in Munich and we visited the site of the Dachau concentration camp. Just inside the entrance was a sort of "visitor's center" where people who did not wish to visit the rest of the camp could wait for those who did. My mother and sister waited; my father and I went in.

A few weeks ago, my sister's daughter, 13 years old, came to visit my wife and I here in DC. She wanted to visit the Holocaust Memorial. Her parents thought it appropriate for her to visit, so we went.

Just last night, my sister called me for Easter (she lives in Florida). She told me that her daughter was upset and sad after her visit to the Holocaust Memorial, but was nevertheless thankful that she was able to see it. I mentioned our visit to Dachau, nearly twenty years ago, and I told my sister that I too was thankful to have been able to stand in that place, to see that place. And that I was sorry she did not go in. She told me that she, too, was sorry she did not go in, and that she has regretted it ever since.

Why would anybody be thankful to visit a place like that. I do not have Sgt. Friendly's eloquence; I cannot say. But I saw the place. I know what happened there. And that is very important to me, especially when I hear some of the almost unbelievably hateful and crazy things people say these days. And to think that there are people alive today who not only know what happened there, but who were THERE AS IT HAPPENED, is simply staggering to me.

So.....as I said, I lack the eloquence. And I am hesitant to even write these words. But I can assure you, my friends, that those words will always be true for me and my family: NEVER FORGET.

73 Evil Otto  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:17:53am

Brianstein,

Just Gordon's way of derailing a thread. He's good at that.

74 Recovering Romantic f.k.a. Gang of One  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:18:54am

Gordon, yes, in fact. There were homosexuals persecuted. And maybe 10 percent of those Nazis doing the persecuting were homosexual. I don't think there were any percentage of Jews on the Nazi team.

So. What does sexual orientation have to do with it?

75 Inside the Whale  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:21:49am

#68 Gordon

Your claim that 10% of the population is gay is disputable:
[Link: traditionalvalues.org...]

76 Abu Akmu  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:24:32am

Gordon,

If I understand the term correctly, "metrosexual" doesn't refer to sexual orientation, but rather to an urban lifestyle, free from traditional american machoisms, and also somewhat narcissistic.

An example of a metrosexual would be a guy who uses lots of hair products, lives in a condo, and doesn't know the names of any pro football players. These guys are not gay. They are just a little more into fashion than their fathers were.

77 Recovering Romantic f.k.a. Gang of One  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:28:43am
An example of a metrosexual would be a guy who uses lots of hair products, lives in a condo, and doesn't know the names of any pro football players.

That would be John Kerry?

78 kitkat  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:37:11am

#67

I suggest you read Bill Mauldin's book, Up Front. He details the same human frailties found in the GIs of the 1940's that exist in the GIs of today. Human behavior doesn't change. Dapper Dan may have been replaced by the term 'metrosexual' but he is still a Dapper Dan. Nothing new there.

I agree that since Vietnam, the leftist in this country have no stomach for casualties and so it would be difficult to wage a war on the scale of the Normandy invasion, but if times called for us to do so, our men and women in uniform would certainly be up to the challenge. Don't blame them for the bad press they are constantly getting. Contrary to popular belief there are plenty of courageous good men and women out there on the front lines.

79 brianstien  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:45:58am

#78 kitkat

I wasn't endorsing everything Adams had to say in the essay; I merely posted it as an interesting sidenote.

I disagree, in fact, with his implication that America would be "in serious trouble" if we had to duplicate the efforts of 60 years ago. More of a challenge, yes. Impossible, no.

80 Gordon  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:49:17am

#73 Evil Otto: Actually the derailing began with brianstien in #67 when he brought "metrosexuals" into this conversation.

#76 Abu Akmu: Thanks for the definition.

I think we can all agree that the Nazis were very, very VERY bad people. And the radical Islamics have adopted their ideology, if not (thankfully) their effectiveness.

81 Colt  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:49:53am

#62 zorkmidden

Greece had the highest percentage after Poland, in the extermination of Jews.

I thought that dubious honour went to Lithuania, where 94% were murdered. IIRC, it was the Lithuanians who were the first to start killing entire families, rather than just the men - a trait picked up by the Nazis.

82 brianstien  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:56:55am

#80 Gordon

Whatever.

The Adams article was difficult to excerpt, since the points he had to make were done so in the context of a rather detailed and specific anecdote. You've chosen to tee off on one word from the excerpt, without bothering to read the entire essay. The thrust of article had nothing to do with anyone's sexual orientation/preference. Which you would have known, had you bothered to read it.

83 Dave  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:58:19am

Thank you Charles. God bless you, America, and LGF regulars. Don't let the losers get you down Charles. Go for a bike ride today if you can!


/still wiping tears away

84 Paco from Sefarad  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 10:08:32am

Thanks for sharing that Charles.

I don't think this would be out of place here either, from the unfinished autobiography of the late Harvey Job Matusow.

[Link: www.ibiblio.org...]

The night of war's end, V-E Day, May 1945, I was on 72-hour pass in Paris. For this romantic event there was no place else to be. On the next day the war was over. I was forgetting my fear of women, being young, comfortable, taking giant steps. Walking tall on a spring day in Paris -- peacetime in Paris -- floating, smiling, everyone was smiling. Spirits danced; there were no walls between people.

Then a thin, oh so war-hungry thin, dark-haired, dark-eyed girl tripped, her heel caught in the grating, broken, leaving her out of balance, but, still smiling when I caught her.

"Are you alright?" I asked.

"Merci, merci!" she answered, holding on for dear life.

I helped her over to a nearby cafe, where in the most God-awful, broken, New Yorkese French I asked her if she would like some wine. I couldn't speak French and she couldn't speak English. We sat there, two kids, and that is all we were, trying to find a single word that we'd both understand. I bought her some food, which she devoured like someone who hadn't eaten in days.

I found another G.I. in the cafe who spoke French, and he translated enough for me to know that she was alone, she didn't know where her family was, living or dead. She lived not far from the cafe; I helped her hobble home on the broken heel.

She lived in a small one-room furnished apartment, empty of the kind of personal things which gives a place a bit of the character of the person who lives there. She asked me to sit down and have some wine.

Wine, yes. No verbal conversation. Just quietly communicating. After about fifteen minutes I reached over and took her hand, turned it over, looked at the palm, the lines, the red rough skin. Then I kissed it, looked at her, put her head in my hands, cupping my palms over her ears. I drew her close; we kissed, softly. I took her hands again, got up with her. We danced as I hummed a waltz. We couldn't speak, but in my humming there was a language she understood.

It must have looked odd, our dancing, she in her bare feet and me in clod-hopper, heavy combat boots. Quietly, gently, her head on my shoulder, we danced. I was bashful, didn't know what to do - try to make it with her or not, couldn't make up my mind. As we danced, I rubbed her back softly. She responded, pressing closer to me, kissing my neck, pulling back, looking up at me. We kissed again, stopped dancing and fell on the narrow single bed, fully clothed.

She stopped, jumped up, said something, pointing to my shoes.

I remembered the French word for sleep, "dormir...Je and vous...dormir..."

She laughed, smiling and nodding..."Oui, oui... dormir... Je and vous..." She broke up laughing...mimicking me.

She went to the bathroom, and I started to undress. I stripped, everything except my olive drab, G.I. issue regulation shorts. She took a few minutes, and I got up and moved about the room, just looking at the few things she had sprinkled around. She entered the room; I turned toward her. The smile on her face suddenly turned to a look of shock or amazement.

Her dark eyes opened wide. Speaking excitedly -- I couldn't understand -- she was pointing at my dog tags which were hanging about my neck. I still had no idea what she was excited about.

"My God," I thought, "What have I done?"

"Qu'est - ce que c'est, qu'est-ce que c'est?" I said, holding the dog-tags out toward her.

She came closer, and picked up the small Star of David which was hanging on the dog-tag chain.

Shaking her head in disbelief, she muttered, "Juif, Juif..." and then started to cry. Crying, uncontrolled crying. I took her over to the bed, still crying, and tried as best I could to comfort her. She stopped crying after a few moments, looked up, smiling again and threw her arms around me. She kissed me, then jumped up, went over to the chair, lifted the cushion and pulled out a Star of David.

She was Jewish, and, like Kitty, a survivor. She'd been in Paris throughout the German occupation. I was the first Jewish-American soldier she had ever met. She was excited with disbelief. I became her symbol for the end of the war, for the end of the hiding, for the end of the horror.

We couldn't speak with words, but, we loved each other for the three days I was in Paris. She came to the railroad station when I left. We had some wine while waiting for my train. As a final gesture we exchanged our Stars of David.

When I got back to Paris in September she was no longer living where she'd been. She'd left no forwarding address, vanished into her own reality but forever living in my fantasy,

85 zorkmidden johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 10:10:45am

#81 Colt

I took the information from Molho's "In Memoriam". It was written shortly after the war. The figure mentioned was 95%, so maybe it's a close call. The Greek Jewish communities were mostly Sephardim, and spoke Ladino. One of the documents dicovered in Auschwitz, (buried in the dirt and discovered accidentally by a Polish schoolgirl) was a letter by Marcel Natzari (sp?), a Salonica Jew, who describes the sondercommando revolt. I don't know much about the Lithuanian communities, though.

BTW, I love your posts, Colt.

86 Dianna  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 10:18:05am

I'm still crying.

Now can we figure out that preventing this from ever happening again is what we're fighting for? Why is this so hard to see?

87 Colt  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 10:18:21am

#85 zorkmidden

I actually don't remember where I got my numbers, or that nasty little facts. I may be mistaken, but I don't think so. Like you say, it sounds like a close call.

Thank you :-)

88 zorkmidden johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 10:20:48am

realwest johnson has asked me to post the following comment from the Ankle Biters thread, here. Since I always obey the bigger lizards, here it is, a post from MY's blog:

No doubt LGF encourages anti-semitism

We are anti-semitic-gay-racist-fascist-jews-for-bush, and our Chief Lizard wears a polka dot dress. There.

89 TesseractJones  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 10:29:36am

I personally know 2 men that had the honor and the job of being GI's in Germany during the liberating of the camps. One actually entered the camps himself and saw the horror, and another worked with the streams of people coming out of them.

Just because you don't want to believe something doesn't make it not true. If the folks on the left could turn the same energy into opening their eyes as they do towards hating George W to the exclusion of all other understanding, we could accomplish a great deal.

I had a long discussion this morning with a very dear friend who has fallen into the trap of the left. He truly sees nothing but evil intent in whatever America (or more specifically what George W) is trying to do. Otherwise smart and intelligent people can be as easily lead astray as the rest of us.

I myself joined protests against the first gulf war. I was in college and scared that they would restart the draft and take me off to fight a war I didn't understand. I've learned a lot since then. I got a haircut and a job and a family and I pay my own bills. I think that now I do understand this war and why it has to be fought.

Just because all constructs of government and religion are fictions at their core, does NOT mean that they are all equal at their core! Why does the sophomore realization that all reality is a construct lend itself so easily to the conclusion that then any fiction is as good as any other?

I'm sure he has been quoted many times, but it's worth invoking Churchill again when he said (something to the effect of, I have to paraphrase) "If you're not a democrat when you're young you have no heart, and if you're not a republican when your old you have no brain."

When I was young enough to have lent my body to the fight, I was unable to understand why it was necessary. Now that I do I cannot fight in the same way, but I lend my support vocally and with my vote and with my dollars and with my heart to those that are. Just because CNN and NPR don't want me to understand doesn't mean that I don't. This is the Good Fight ladies and gentlemen, the fronts of the battle are not all in Iraq and the ones here at home require as much vigilance from us as the ones there.

90 leo (dissident view from Berlin)  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 10:32:11am

Do you remember the golden ball in the courtyard of the World Trade Center? The designer, Fritz Koenig, also created a monument in Mauthausen.

The Koenig Sphere was damaged on 9/11 but survived. From the quarries of Mauthausen to the horrors of present-day terrorism it symbolizes the desire for liberty that will never be destroyed.

BTW, the Nazi law that was used to send gays to Mauthausen remained unchanged until 1969: Paragraph 175

91 Shira  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 10:37:39am

The Yiddish Radio Project, an incredible site, has an exhibit on the Holocaust as heard through Yiddish radio. Check out these links:

Reunion

Other Radio Broadcasts about the Holocaust (includes Edward R. Murrow's report from Buchenwald)

92 zorkmidden johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 10:44:50am

From the Matthew Yglesias blog:

someone told me LGF gets paypal donations from far right-wing racists because they like seeing Jews portrayed as racist and bloodthirsty bigots

So we're holding this discussion about the Holocaust at LGF today because we like seeing Jews portrayed as racist and bloodthirsty bigots. Gotcha.

BTW, the poster's handle is "LGF Paid Off By David Duke?"

93 evariste  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 10:52:18am

#84 Paco from Sefarat, thanks, that was an extraordinarily charming story. Very touching. Ronnie, thanks for sharing the letter that's the topic of this thread; I read it in your comment last night and was very affected.

I'm amazed that people tell us we're cartoonish Yank cowboys and see everything in terms of good and evil, even after we rolled back the Nazis, the Imperial Japanese, the Fascists and the Soviets. If those and the Islamist fascist movement don't prove the existence of evil for these people, what will?

If we were to fight Satan himself would we still have to listen to these hectoring lectures by our purported superiors?

I suspect the answer is yes.

94 cba  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 10:57:30am

Thank you for posting this. It is very moving.

I'm also curious Friendly's mention of using his right hand to shake for the first time. It's certainly nothing to do with Judaism. I'd be very interested if anyone has any information about that.

95 Shira  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 11:08:20am

#93 evariste

I can't say whether we are fighting Satan but we certainly are fighting evil.

96 Joel  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 11:19:20am

Mauthausen was one of the worst concentration camps but was not an extermination camp. The 6 camps in which gassing took place were

1. Chelmno
2. Sobibor
3. Treblinka
4. Belzec
5. Majdanaek
6. Auschwitz-Birkenau

97 Marshall  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 11:24:42am

How dare you? I knew Fred Friendly, and to think that his words are thrown around on this website is repulsive. He would be ashamed of you.

98 Bubbaman  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 11:36:01am

It's tragic that 60 years later we have to be involved in similar struggles. The real problem is that the LLL has no sense or understanding of history or morality - that's why we are in a morass right now.

This is the kind of stuff our kids should be reading and studying in school - not the kind of revisionist kumbaya krap that they are being taught.

The wall may have come tumbling down, but the commies are having the last laugh in terms of the education process - it shows in the wackadoos who are marching in S.F. It shows in the nightly newspaper and on our T.V.'s. It shows in delusional children who decide to become bulldozer iron-on patches.

Where's Fred's insight and wisdom today, when we need it most?

99 Tish  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 11:42:52am

#97 Marshall

Huh???? I don't get it - I thought we were discussing how inspiring his words were. How does that equal disrespect?

100 Marshall  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 11:43:59am

Hey Bubba, I'll tell you where Fred's insight is today. Do you happen to know what he devoted his life to after WW2? The First Amendment, not that you Islamofascists would know anything about that. Yes, shock horror, Fred Friendly was a good liberal. How inconvenient for you.

But you're right, it would be easier and simpler if we didn't bother teaching our children to think..... just repeat after me.....

No wonder that quiz compared you people to the Nazis.

101 Marshall  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 11:45:46am

Tish, you're right, his words are inspiring. That's why it's a shame to see them repeated in a cesspool of bigotry like this website.

102 brianstien  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 11:46:41am

*sigh*

Don't feed the troll.

103 Marshall  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 11:53:16am

A Man of Courage

Here's the biography of Fred Friendly posted on the website of the Fred Friendly Seminars, which continue to this day. They discuss unpatriotic topics like how closet fascists like to use terror attacks as an excuse to sweep their ethical lapses under the rug with unamerican roundups of immigrants.

-------------------------------------------------- ------

"Fred Friendly is a towering figure in the history of broadcast news who came to stand for quality and integrity in journalism. In the 1950's, he and legendary newsman Edward R. Murrow created See It Now, the most critically-acclaimed series on television at the time. In 1954 they took on Senator Joseph McCarthy, who was waging a virulent campaign by naming suspected Communists inside the United States government. Their broadcast has been widely credited with breaking the Senator's grip on the country in that paranoid era.

In 1959, Fred Friendly became the Executive Producer of CBS Reports, a documentary news series on such controversial issues as civil rights, migrant workers, government secrecy and the link between tobacco and lung cancer. After fifteen years producing the finest programs in television news and receiving countless awards, Friendly was named President of CBS News in 1964.

He resigned from CBS News in 1966 when the network pre-empted Congressional hearings on America's involvement in the Vietnam War to air reruns of I Love Lucy. Friendly then joined the Ford Foundation where he was one of the driving forces behind the creation of public television. He began the public television program that became the Fred Friendly Seminars in 1984 as an outgrowth of the "Media and Society Seminars," which he directed from Columbia University. When Fred Friendly retired from the series in 1992 at the age of 76, he repeated on air the familiar words that defined the purpose of these seminars as he saw it: "not to make up anybody's mind, but to open minds and to make the agony of decision making so intense that you can escape only by thinking."

----------------------------------------------

There's an American for you.

104 Robert Dubh Nianque  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:13:46pm

responding to message 64

Jabberwock,

***I hope nobody thinks the piece that No. 30 expresses the feelings of Mark Twain.*** Mr. Twain was an anti-imperialist and The War Prayer reflected his thoughts at the time (early 1900s).

***If he indeed wrote it (source?), it was as sardonic irony.*** As a counterpoint, these thoughts from General Sherman may be of interest:

***...You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it...You might as well appeal against the thunder-storm as against these terrible hardships of war. They are inevitable...***

Robert Dubh Nianque

105 evariste  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:38:01pm

#103 Marshall, whatever. The fact is, the same young man who wrote the letter above also founded the foundation that encourages the protection of civil liberties today. That fact does not preclude us from appreciating his earlier letter, which has parallels to the war that we presently find ourselves engaged in.

If Fred Friendly saw 9/11 and didn't come to many of the same conclusions that we did, I'm afraid I would have to say that he had grown senile in his old age. But I doubt it. Fred Friendly doesn't sound like the kind of man who would shrink from naming the enemy.

It's awfully convenient for you that he's dead and can't speak for himself. Yet again, a lefty is trying to tell people they should be ashamed for thoughtcrime. Bug off, and come back when you can have respect for others' opinions despite the fact that they don't reinforce your poorly thought out preconceptions.

106 Joel Terry  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:39:44pm

#103

First of all, pick your epithets carefully, Marshall: We're not the Islamofascists; no, they're the radical Muslims you blindly (or maybe all too clearly) and blithely support.

Marshall, if it were WWII, you and your ilk would be screeching loudly about how much of a bigot Fred Friendly is for writing these very words about Nazi Germans and how the Nazis have rights, too.

Please help us understand why you and your friends don't get it, OK, Marshall? Were you not loved as a child? Did you huff too much model airplane glue? Was it something subliminal in the TV programming? Was it something in the milk? Please tell us--in the name of all that is, was, and ever shall be--what in the hell goes on in your crania?

107 evariste  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:41:15pm
They discuss unpatriotic topics like how closet fascists like to use terror attacks as an excuse to sweep their ethical lapses under the rug with unamerican roundups of immigrants.

Yeah, and we were much more unamerican when we rounded up the Japanese...and put them in camps.

That was in Fred Friendly's time. I'd like to hear his opinion of it and not his self-appointed spokesmens'. History has recently revealed that we were justified in putting them in camps, too. I bet you hate that!

By the way, is it unamerican to enforce our own laws? The only immigrants being "rounded up" are those who've violated their visas, and those who've committed crimes that result in automatic ejection from the country. By law.

I can't get too exercised over that.

108 Marshall  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:46:12pm

Marshall's autobiography:

I was a child brought up around people like Fred Friendly, a dear friend of my family's, who taught me how to think. Sadly, he passed away a few years before 9/11, and I think he could indeed have had much to add at this point. Luckily, we still have the Fred Friendly seminars, and you people should take a look at what they're doing. The cognitive dissonance might be too great though.

109 Marshall  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:47:28pm

The Japanese internment was justified? Who told you that, Rush Limbaugh?

110 evariste  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:48:56pm

No; I don't even listen to Rush.

111 Marshall  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 12:56:01pm

Well, where'd you hear it then? I certainly haven't been satisfied as to the justification for the extra-judicial internment of thousands of law-abiding citizens. Even the bogus national security "threats" that the apologists bring up every so often don't do anything to tell us how such an obviously unconstitutional act is somehow defensible.

112 evariste  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:02:31pm

Um, MAGIC decrypts that were recently declassified under FOIA? I'm not gonna do your research for you; suffice it to say you are wrong. Among other things, 2/3rds of those detained weren't even Japanese-Americans: They were plain old Japanese.
And as for "obviously unconstitutional", have you heard of Korematsu? It's Constitutional if the Supreme Court says so, and it does.

113 Marshall  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:06:18pm

Oh, so THAT's how you justify the legality of George Bush's presidency. I get it.

You are now hereby prohibited from disagreeing with any Supreme Court decision, ever, from now on.

114 Marshall  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:08:51pm

Let's play the Nazi game again. Imprisoning people just because they aren't American is okay? Hitler revoked the citizenship of German Jews in a perfectly legal way.... I guess you would have supported the imprisoning of Jews then so long as they weren't killed.

115 evariste  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:09:04pm
Oh, so THAT's how you justify the legality of George Bush's presidency. I get it.

You are now hereby prohibited from disagreeing with any Supreme Court decision, ever, from now on.

And with that, you've proven that you learned nothing at all from Fred Friendly.

116 Marshall  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:10:51pm

?

117 Marc  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:15:37pm

# 63 Recovering

BTW Marc #53: perhaps you are unaware that you do bring in a bit of Judaism into your fine Christian home when celebrating Easter. I am sure you know that the Last Supper was a Passover Seder. For some reason, I am begining to sense that my Christian brothers and sisters are taking the reality of us Jews into a different realm. I have experienced real, genuine love, almost a sort of sincere regret and desire for absolution from my non-Jewish peers, especially after they have seem the "Passion of the Christ."

You are quite right, thank you. I hope you are right about the "Passion," too.

Your sentiments bring to mind an experience from my youth. At 17 I spent the Summer on a kibbutz (Reshafim). On a weekend visit to Jerusalem, I purchased a silver Star of David and had the jeweler place a small cross on the upper crossbar of the Star (so that the cross was suspended within the Star of David). It captured my outlook perfectly. (Keep in mind that at this age I was completely oblivious to the hostility between Christians and Jews. It would have been imcomprehensible to me that a Jewish person would take offense at this piece.)

On my first day back at the kibbutz, I pulled factory duty (PVC products). There was this middle-aged guy as supervisor that day who spoke no English the entire Summer (me-monolingual), but on seeing my necklace, he pointed at it and started shouting something I didn't understand. I thought "Oh sh--! I am really pissing someone off here!"

In his best English possible, he finally said, "That! That! When we see that there will be peace!"

At 46 I remember this as if it just occurred.

118 brianstien  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:27:16pm

evariste

Slavery was constitutional at one time; that didn't make it right.

Full disclosure: My grandfather Takeshi (American citizen, born & bred) was imprisoned at Minidoka, ID (gotta keep an eye on those slant-eyed hospital cooks!).

His little brother Satoru managed to evade the feds and enlist in the 442nd Infantry. Uncle Sat returned home with a chest full of medals, along with a prosthetic to compensate for the left leg blown off outside of Bruyeres.

So if the imprisonment of my grandfather was "justified", then was my great-uncle's service (in open defiance of General 9066) unjustified?

I'm not trying to pick a fight. You're one of the most thoughtful lizards in the neighborhood. But you've touched a nerve.

119 Abu Akmu  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:27:42pm

Hey Marshall,

Some of us are liberals. For instance, I've worked for the democratic candidates in every election back to and including 1976. This will be the first year since I was 16 that I won't be making lots of calls, and walking my precinct to get out the vote.

Lots of posters here are former liberals who are sickened by the spectacle of the anti-american left over the last few years.

It's fine sing kumbaya when you are sitting around a campfire, but it's sheer stupidity to flash a smile and a peace sign while someone is trying to kill you.

120 evariste  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:48:50pm

brianstien, that hits close to home, in more than one way. I'll ask you to look at it this way: I'm not trying to minimize the pain and suffering of those individuals, probably a large majority, who were totally blameless and were nonetheless interned. As for myself, for instance: right now we're in a world war against Islamic fascism, probably in the early stages of it. I'm a Palestinian-American of muslim parents. I'd probably be one of the people we'd intern if that policy ever became necessary again; assuming that I didn't emulate Satoru and enlist first. If it happens, you won't see me complaining about what is or isn't Constitutional. Because I honestly do think it fits within the bounds of both morality and the compact about how we agree to treat each other that we call the Constitution. As someone famous whose name I forget-but who was probably a Supreme Court Justice-said, "the Constitution is not a suicide pact". I'd rather be interned for a few years and help expedite the war's progress than be free while millions of people from my end of the gene pool actively abet the enemy. I would think of it as a form of being drafted, and an extremely benign one at that, especially if it's as nice, as far as prison accomodations go, as the Japanese internment camps were. They had accredited schools, post offices, businesses, all the trappings of civilian life. They just couldn't leave their particular internment camp. They certainly had it easier than farm-boys that were sent off to be GIs (although I'd much rather be the farm boy GI than the internee).
Of 120 000 internees, 2/3rds weren't citizens. 1/3rd were. So that's about 40 000 people. I've read that during the course of the war, 33 000 people applied for and were allowed to leave the camps, and another 5 000 people left the camps to go to college. So yes, they were a bad thing, but not nearly as bad as the alternatives; I'd gladly go myself if I were unable to fight instead.
Parenthetically: I think (or hope) you'll agree, setting slavery aside as it was enshrined in the Constitution at the time-but not setting segregation and Jim Crow, which the Supreme Court did shamefully uphold in a number of decisions-that among other differences, the Supreme Court has availed itself amply of the opportunity to rebuke its earlier decisions, but has not ever rebuked itself in Korematsu. Despite ample opportunity, including all the enemy combatant/guantanamo/etc type cases that we've had lately.

121 evariste  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:57:13pm

Anyway, I like your stuff too. I hope you don't think my answer's flip, brianstien. I really don't mean to make it sound like Takeshi was having a nice picnic.

122 Amy  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 1:59:29pm

I honestly don't understand why Marshall thinks he has an axe to grind here. FF's words speak for themselves as to the horrors of the Holocaust, and that's ALL they are about. I think we can all agree, Conservatives and Liberals, that the Nazis were evil and had to be utterly destroyed. The fact that FF may have disagreed with the current Administration's policies has absolutely nothing to do with his heartfelt feelings about what he found at Mauthausen.

Shame on you, Marshall, for muddying the waters in an inspiring thread intended to make everyone remember the past and to give thanks that they are fortunate enough to live in a country where they can practice their respective religions in peace.

123 Marshall  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:07:42pm

Yes, Amy, shame on me for not ignoring the multitude of posters above who apply Friendly's words to some conception of the way things are now. You're right: Fred Friendly was talking about the holocaust and he was profoundly right. The shame comes from the legions of right-wing ignoramuses who wave around words they don't understand in order to make themselves look respectable.

124 cba  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:20:08pm

Oh, I get it now... Marshall's upset that we're covering our obscene right-wingness with a veneer of concern to try to make ourselves look respectable. That's what's got his panties in a wad.

125 evariste  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:25:04pm

cba, LOL. You nailed it!

126 PIGLET  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:46:52pm

Marshall, the forces that we are fighting now, actually fought for Hitler in WW2. THe Mufti was involved with the Holocaust and spent the war in Berlin, and the Baath parties in Syria and Iraq are both National socialist in origin. If you don't believe me, go to the transcripts of the Eichmann trial and seach for Mufti or Iraqi. No one is making false comparisions, they are actually connected.

Dr. Servatius: Another exhibit, T/952, document No. 1034, is a communication from the Accused to the Foreign Ministry dated 4 May 1943. This is another notification about the emigration of Jews to Palestine. It says that the Palestine Government has authorized larger-scale entry. It says that this entry must be prevented.

Witness, you said earlier that initially you were particularly in favour of emigration to Palestine, and now we have this contradictory position.

---------
Dr. Servatius: The next exhibits are T/1260 - document No. 1310, T/1263, document No. 1309 and T/1261, document No. 1311. These are communications by the Mufti to Ribbentrop, to the Bulgarian Foreign Minister, and again to Ribbentrop with a request for support of his political aims.

Were you in touch with the Mufti? Did you co-operate with him? Would you care to give the Court information on the matter?

Accused: Yes. As far as I know I saw the Mufti just once. This was during an evening hosted by Department VI in the Security Service guesthouse, to which most of the Specialist Officers of the Head Office for Reich Security had been invited. Each Specialist Officer, including myself, was presented to the Mufti. At that time there was an agreement between the Mufti and Himmler, according to which - I know of only three people - but in any case several people had to go through the Head Office for Reich Security as intelligence agents. In this case it was three Iraqi Majors. According to orders, these three Iraqi Majors came to work in my Section for their information for a day or two - I cannot quite remember now. Subsequently, neither I, not any officer of IVB4, had anything at all to do with either the Mufti or any of the three Iraqi Majors.

Dr. Servatius: Did the Mufti ever offer his services to you as an adviser on Jewish affairs?

-----------
Dr. Servatius: I come now to a section which concerns the attempt to get Jews out of the territory of the German Reich, which was in the end led by Ambassador Feldscher. In this connection there is a document, No. 743, which has not yet been submitted. At the moment I do not have any copies here: perhaps I can submit my own copy? This is a draft report of the Foreign Ministry, listing the various endeavours by foreign authorities, as well as containing a draft reply to the relevant bodies. I would ask for permission to submit that later on.

Presiding Judge: I mark this N/30. You may take the document back after the Session in order to make more copies. Do you wish to quote from the exhibit?

Dr. Servatius: No, this is just a general reference, because all these actions are grouped here in a convenient form, giving an overall picture.

The next exhibit is T/1071, document No. 150. This is a communication from Section IVB4, Guenther, to the Foreign Ministry. The document refers to efforts by the Romanian Government and the International Red Cross.

Witness, did you deal with this matter?

Accused: As shown in the communication I - that is to say, the Section - dealt with this only to the extent that a highly confidential notification which reached Section IVB4 was sent on to the Foreign Ministry, and the Police Attache in Bucharest was also advised. Since a similar instance has already been brought up today, I can more or less assume that this confidential information also came from the DNB, the German News Agency. Finally, I should also like to say that one document refers to 13 July 1944, at which time I was in Hungary, not in Berlin.

Dr. Servatius: I come now to T/1259. This is a communication of the Foreign Ministry dated 27 May 1944, for internal use. It says that the Reich Foreign Minister has ruled that nothing shall be done for the moment in the Feldscher affair.

I shall now omit several exhibits. Generally these show the same negative attitude towards the various efforts, with various reasons being put forward in order to explain why these matters should be rejected. I should like to submit some of these exhibits later, but I do not have them yet available in triplicate, perhaps I can do so at the beginning of the next session.

I turn now to document No. 667, which has no T number as yet. I can submit this document provisionally, for the time being.

Presiding Judge: This will be N/31.

Dr. Servatius: This is a collection of communications with regard to information to the Red Cross about departures on the steamer "Tari." On page 5 permission is given for the departure, on 21 April 1944; on the same day, page 7, the permission is revoked.

Do you know anything about the facts? About the sudden change in attitude?

[Link: www.nizkor.org...]

127 cba  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 2:59:11pm

piglet, don't confuse Marshall with facts. Where he comes from, right-wingers are heartless beasts who have no right showing concern for victims of hate, since they are the epitome of hate themselves and to do so is hypocritical.

128 Glen Wishard  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 3:21:44pm

Marshall -

Thanks. Thanks for pissing all over a thread of remembrances with your infantile second-hand ideology. You have no idea what a "Nazi" is, or an "Islamofascist".

But you do know how to hate, and how to parrot the idiotic mantras of the adolescent left, so you are fully qualified to be what you are. Congratulations.

And now you may kiss the worm-eaten ass of my neighbor's ugly bulldog. After which, you have my leave to grow the f--k up.

129 brianstien  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 3:44:42pm

evariste

Sorry for the delay – long commute tonight.

You’re anything but flip (except when you mean to be :-)
The 2/3 – 1/3 argument is a legitimate one. Unfortunately, it’s one that is rarely highlighted.

Nonetheless, the two-thirds who caused red flags to be raised does little to ameliorate the unjustness of the 1/3’s incarceration, nor compensate them for homes and businesses – the culmination, in many cases, of multiple generations of work, effort, and sweat - that were lost as a result.

Had we used something like the Gitmo model, I’m sure there would be considerably less caterwauling. A 33% failure rate is nothing to sneeze at.

So yes, they were a bad thing, but not nearly as bad as the alternatives; I'd gladly go myself if I were unable to fight instead.

You’d be surprised (or perhaps not) at how prevalent – apart from the “gladly” portrayal – that attitude is among many internees. “Shigatanagai” doesn’t really translate. I’m not even certain whether it’s Japanese, or pigeon-Japanese. But I heard it often from Uncle Sat and my grandmother and many others who were directly impacted by General Order 9066. It’s sort of an acceptance of fate. “No can help,” as my grandmother described it.

For his part, Uncle Sat never expressed any bitterness (well, there was that one time he threatened to take off his leg & beat me with it if I didn’t stop interrupting him). On the contrary, he was grateful & proud that he & his fellow soldiers in the 442nd had the opportunity to so effectively make a point.

There were valid justifications for some of what was implemented. But there was a lot that was wrong about it, too. Intentionally or not, racism was an ugly component of that policy (take a look at the propoganda of the period, or read letters to the editor published during that time).

Nonetheless, I am confident we’ve learned the appropriate lessons, and that we’ll never have to read evariste's postings from an internment camp.

130 evariste  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 4:27:49pm

brianstien-you about summed it up perfectly, I don't think I have anything to add to that. Just wanted to make sure you knew I'd read it, and wasn't ignoring you :-)

131 Wolfe  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 4:45:07pm

Wow... I'm nearly speechless.

I won't rehash the obvious, as it has no effect on the shrill Left. I lost my WWII veteren Grandfather one year ago April 15th, and my only regret is not thanking him personally for what he did (Africa, Sicily) and what he and countless others sacraficed for the cause of humanity.

Oh, please let's get some sort of letter-writing/email campaign against Andy Looney... THIS simply disgusts me to no end.

Happy belated Easter everyone-

Brian

132 Dan McWiggins  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 6:26:42pm

Evariste, Brianstien,

Excellent discussion and very informative. I think the Japanese internment situation during WWII illustrates perfectly the problem of competing rights. Was it, on the face of it, wrong to intern American citizens? Yes, obviously.

On the other hand, the question arises as to whether there was legitimate reason to believe that some of those American citizens (and their foreign relatives) held sufficient loyalty to a declared enemy to make them a serious danger. Given the surprise nature of Pearl Harbor and the fanaticism with which the Japanese fought, I cannot disagree with the assessment made by Roosevelt that they DID constitute a danger in the aggregate.

Since the country had already experienced a surprise attack and could not afford the danger of potential saboteurs running about unchecked, Roosevelt's action seems, from this distance, to be a legitimate one. The right of the country to defend itself from sudden and unprovoked aggression trumps the right of the potential aggressors to have free run of the nation. It's certainly arguable that if Roosevelt hadn't taken such action he would have been guilty of negligence; if some Japanese saboteur had destroyed a major industrial or military target he would have been accused of outright malfeasance.

Four other thoughts: first, Roosevelt may well have saved some Japanese lives. Anger against Japanese, as opposed to Germans and Italians, grew progressively stronger during the war. It certainly isn't inconceivable that the butcher's bills coming back from places like Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa could have sent some home front heroes into the business of disposing those of the hated enemy who were close to hand.

Second, racism was a major part of this section of WWII, but rightfully so: the Japanese did not fight according to Western rules and treated prisoners of war disgracefully according to those rules. If the Aussies had been in the place of the Americans in 1945, there would have been no Japan after the war. After the widely publicized rape/torture/murder of the Aussie nurses and doctors on the Kokoda Trail in New Guinea, the Aussies had damned little inclination for tolerance where Japanese were concerned. The Japanese themselves have done some deep introspection over their extreme brutality during the war. Many of them are deeply ashamed of their country's behavior--and they should be.

Third, as a historical parallel, the UK made no bones whatsoever about interning all enemy aliens and enemy sympathizers in Britain. They saw Germans and Italians as potential threats and lost no time in locking the lot of them up for the duration. If they, as a fellow democracy considerably more socialistically inclined than the US, showed so few qualms about locking up people of European descent as imminent dangers, our locking up people of Asian descent coming from a much different cultural background has to be viewed with considerably more understanding.

Fourth, the blood of the 442nd earned for the Japanese the right to be honored Americans, not just tolerated ones. They paid the price to be a true part of this society. I keep wondering when I'm going to see the Muslims even condemn the murderous actions of their co-religionists, much less shed blood fighting them. They certainly haven't shown much inclination to do so up to this point in the WOT.

Sorry to take up so much space, Charles.

133 piglet  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 8:08:41pm

I hesitated posting this, since all of this is a sensitive, and what I am linking to is artwork, which is often
cause for disagreement, but I found this artist a few years ago, and I found his use of American pop icons with images of the Nisei experience compeling.:

[Link: www.gregkucera.com...]

Roger Shimomura | paintings

 

More on this artist:

Resume


Reviews


Other Work

An American Diary series, 2002-2003

In this series of paintings, Japanese-American Roger Shimomura combined aspects of his Pop Art and cartoon-based imagery with reminiscences of his family's internment during World War II.  An American Diary is based on a personal diary written by his grandmother, Toku Shimomura, while the Shimomura family was interned at Camp Minidoka in Hunt, Idaho. Shimomura has commemorated the experience by combining the Japanese literary tradition with flat comic-book style characters, outlined in black. In earlier works, Shimomura explored artistic idioms of the popular Japanese printmaking genre called Ukiyo-e ("pictures of the floating world") in his imagery and treatment of the picture plane.

It is notable that Japanese wood block prints carry some of the same conventions as American comic books, most obviously in the black outlines that contain flat areas of unmodulated color. In addition, the artist employs such American icons as Superman and Dick Tracy to express aspects of the dilemma of American citizens of Japanese descent caught up in anti-Japanese sentiment. Similarly, in other work, Shimomura has used figures such as actors, courtesans and warriors from Japanese woodblock prints as stand-ins for contemporary figures.

134 evariste  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:20:12pm

Dan McWiggins, that was a great post.

135 evariste  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 9:26:14pm

I heartily second the excellent art piglet links to. Well, not excellent-I'm not a big Warhol/pop art type person, but sincere and touching. Each painting has a short diary entry written by his grandmother during her internment. Recomendo.

136 Glen Wishard  Mon, Apr 12, 2004 11:17:25pm

On the subject of Japanese internment in WWII, I plead hopeless sentimentality. Linda Allen's song Executive Order 9066 (Let Justice Flow Like a River) brings a tear to my jaded eye every time:

The order came down in the middle of March -
These were our friends and our neighbors!
All Japanese persons from Bainbridge must part -
Let Justice flow like a river.

This island's been home since Eighteen Eighty-three -
These are our friends and our neighbors!
To Japanese families now called Enemy -
Let Justice flow like a river.

Ten days to pack or to sell all they owned -
These were our friends and our neighbors!
To leave strawberry fields, small businesses, homes -
Let Justice flow like a river.

Potential saboteurs? Not one in ten thousand, I think, nor would it have justified locking up the other 9999.

137 brianstien  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 8:02:20am

#136 Glen Wishard
That's a new one on me. Thanks.

#133 Piglet
Good find! I had been aware of Shimoura's artwork, but had never encountered the diary entries. I'm going to print some of it off, and send it to my Auntie Shizu (Uncle Sat's widow).

#132 Dan McWiggins
Thanks for weighing in so thoughtfully. I do need to take issue with a couple of points.

...the question arises as to whether there was legitimate reason to believe that some of those American citizens (and their foreign relatives) held sufficient loyalty to a declared enemy to make them a serious danger. Given the surprise nature of Pearl Harbor and the fanaticism with which the Japanese fought, I cannot disagree with the assessment made by Roosevelt that they DID constitute a danger in the aggregate.

Given the surprise nature of 9/11 and the fanaticism behind it, an identical assessment could be made today. If we learned anything from internment, hopefully it's that we don't strip law-abiding Americans of their rights & property based on nothing more than their ancestry.

racism was a major part of this section of WWII, but rightfully so: the Japanese did not fight according to Western rules and treated prisoners of war disgracefully according to those rules.

Um, sorry. Racism is never an option. The Imperial Japanese were not horrifically brutal because they were Asian, any more than Hitler slaughtered 13 million because he was white; any more than Idi Amin engaged in cannibalism because he was black.

Our adversaries in the current conflict are no less brutal or fanatical than were the Imperial Japanese. If we apply your calculus to the current enemy, then evariste should be looked upon with suspicion and derision, and quite possibly stripped of his home/land/business and locked up.

However, like you, I anxiously await the fabled "Moderate Muslims" to issue the appropriate condemnations of the estremeist vermin in their who purport to act in their name.

138 brianstien  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 8:07:16am

er... excise "in their" from that last sentence.

/preview is for nancy-boys

139 piglet  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 9:07:23am

I had two interesting cultural experiences in Honolulu.

1) I was watching Walt Disney's Fantasia in a movie theater. There is a scene where mushrooms are dancing, and they have slanted eyes and look like people working in a rice field with those cone shaped hats. Classic 1950's American racism. I was squirming with liberal discomfort.
THe audence, which like Hawaii was predominantly Asian American was rolling with laughter.

2) Watching the film "Come see the Paradise."

THe film deals with the internment of Japanese Americans during world war two. It is a typical hamfisted hollywood film, with a needless white character. The main family in the movie is being forced to move with only days notice,
and is trying to figure out what to do with their dog.
One of them says, we could leave him with the Chins.
THe sister says, "oh, no, there chinese, they'll eat him!"

140 Dan McWiggins  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 9:39:19am

Brianstien,

First reply: Roosevelt's decision that the Japanese did pose a threat is valid and it was backed up by the Supreme Court. Those who criticise it afterward are entitled to their opinion, although it should be noted that a) Japanese in Hawaii did spy for Japan, and b) the Japanese were noted for extreme fanaticism even by Islamic standards. For example, the individual chosen to read the Imperial Rescript each year was honor-bound to commit seppuku if he verbally stumbled over even one word of the message. Sounds a bit over the top, no?

Second point: you may choose not to be racist. That doesn't mean other people won't be. Ever been to Japan, Brian? I worked there for a decade. There is no more racist country in the world and most Japanese will freely admit it. Non-Japanese look wrong to them, smell wrong to them, and act improperly all too often. They just don't particularly care to be around gaijin.

There WAS a large strain of racism in this part of WWII that the European war simply didn't match, Nazi propaganda about "supermen" notwithstanding. The Japanese made great use of anti-white propaganda in every Asian country they occupied. Read some of the history of Malaya or Indonesia for the periods right after WWII. They're eye-opening. The Japanese were preaching Asian racial superiority (with them as primus inter pares, of course) to everyone they occupied. It worked pretty well with folks like the INA and the Indonesians.

As for the American side of the ledger, remember that atrocity tends to breed atrocity. The Japanese did some truly horrible things to POW's and captured civilians. The Rape of Nanking (before WWII) stands out among them but there were plenty of others. They executed at least 40,000 Chinese in Singapore in the first six months after the British surrender. I've mentioned the Aussies already. Only in an alternate world full of angels would their actions not have brought racist opprobrium down on their heads.

One of the things that the revisionist historians invariably fail to account for is the almost unanimous accord among both British and Americans in the know about the wisdom of dropping the bomb on Japan. Churchill, Truman, Attlee, Bevin, Marshall--they all thought it absolutely necessary. These weren't the people at the sharp end; they were the ones charged with cool and dispassionate analysis of the situation. They ALL wanted Japan nuked because they thought it the only way to save a tremendous number of Allied casualties. Gar Alperowitz be damned--that's how it was.

One last thing: don't fall prey to fundamental attribution error. I remember the first time, in Singapore, that I heard a Chinese girl tell me that "all you white people look alike." She wasn't kidding, and it was a real "AHA" moment for me. You think that everyone should hold racism in the same abhorrence you do. They don't, particularly in places outside the U.S. It behooves Americans to remember that fact in dealing with the rest of the world. They think our efforts to ignore race are foolish and naive. Given the problems we have here at home, it can't be said that their argument is completely without foundation.

141 brianstien  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 11:55:49am

Dan McWiggins

We'll just have to agree to disagree. While I have never been to Japan, I have quite a number of family & friends who have. Almost without exception, they all concur with your assertion that the Japanese are (to this day) among the most racist people on earth.

To quote Miles Davis: So What?

Another nation's provincial and outdated immorality entitles us to debase our own citizens?

1/3 of those on the business end of 9066 were NOT JAPANESE. I would posit that my grandfather & great-uncle were pretty representative of that 1/3. Ever met any of that 1/3, Dan? I've rubbed elbows with them all of my life. My experience with them is, I suspect, as compelling and instructive vis a vis their quality & character AS AMERICANS, as the decade you spent in Japan has been for you, re: THE JAPANESE (indeed, it was my big, strapping, white-guy dad who was ostracized from his family when he married a woman who wasn’t white; and welcomed with open arms into my mom’s cozy corner of Asian Americanism). You're talking apples. I'm talking oranges.

And yes, I do find the seppuku sanctions to be "a bit over the top." But no more so than today's Islamofacist kamikazes; or the animals who enlist children to commit their atrocities; the vermin who flayed Richard Welch alive in 1975; the scum who produce the Islamonazi snuff films the twisted f*cks at Clearguidance can't get enough of. The Imperial Japanese never had a corner on fanaticism and evil.

Identifying legitimate threats during wartime, and taking extraordinary measures to neutralize those threats is perfectly valid (I would argue that that’s precisely what we’re doing in Guantanamo). Did FDR have justifiable grounds to implement extraordinary measures? Absolutely. Did we go too far and step on thousands of innocent Americans in the process? Absolutely. Can we build on our successes and learn from our mistakes? I hope so.

142 brianstien  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 12:08:14pm

An aside: I have a friend who spent a year teaching English in Osaka. She didn't speak Japanese or read kanji.

About 3 months into her stay, she found herself tiring of the local cuisine. While out bicycling on her day off, she happened upon an American pizza franchisee (Dominoes or Godfathers or something).

She made a beeline for the restaurant & ordered a beer. Unable to read the menu, she ordered the #5. She figured she had to be in safe territory. So there she sat, sipping her beer while anticipating her pie.

The pizza arrived. And it was covered in tentacles.

She finished her beer and left.

143 Dan McWiggins  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 2:11:22pm

Brianstien,

There's not that much disagreement between us, actually. I believe that racism is as normal to human beings as the fear of snakes or spiders. Can it be overcome? Certainly. Doing so, however, takes conscious effort and a willingness to go a long way out of an individual's comfort zone. I'm not saying people should not do this. I'm just saying that it's difficult and many people, given the option, choose not to. American society, which is arguably the least racist on the planet, still gives plenty of proof of my prior assertion. In most other societies, where there is less stigma for being racist, people tend to act accordingly. One thing they taught me in engineering school that stuck was that to solve any given problem you have to deal with the situation as it stands, not the situation as you wish it was.

I think Roosevelt did the right thing in WWII. I suspect racism may have had something to do with it but even without that factor I believe Roosevelt correct in his decision. I think revisionist historians in our time are all too prone to blame his action on racism rather than his perception of a legitimate national danger. Presentism is always a danger when trying to reconstruct the past and too many modern historians fall into that trap. World War II looks, from our perspective, to have always been a certain win for the Allies. It most assuredly did not look like that to Americans living through it in 1942 and 1943.

As for the Japanese who were interned, it was certainly difficult for them and there is no arguing that. The more important thing is that the well-publicized bravery of the 442nd (and I submit that such bravery would not have been well-publicized in a less meritocratic society) bought them a legitimate and honored place in America. After the war, Nisei were still Asians but they were OUR Asians who had shown they had what it takes to be as good as the best American citizens.

I still remember my mother, a born and bred Texan, telling me about how thankful they were when the Japanese-Americans of the 442nd saved a lot of Texas boys who were in a tough spot over in Europe. She didn't know the battle, or even the country it happened in, for that matter, but she knew the 442nd was made up of Japanese-Americans and that they went through hell to rescue those Texans. Texas at that time certainly had its fair share of racists but I don't think, after WWII, that most of them thought too badly of Japanese-Americans anymore. They had paid the price to be Americans.

Side note: when I was in Japan one time unloading LNG, I remember being at the loading manifold talking with another American engineer when the Japanese terminal engineer came up and spoke to us. His nametag identified him as Sato Morifuku. We greeted him in English, he passed along some loading information, we said our goodbyes, and he went away.

Once he was gone, I looked at the other American and asked him "You catch that name?" He looked at me, laughing, shook his head and said "With that name, he'd a never made it through high school."

144 brianstien  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 3:31:23pm

Dan McWiggins

You're right - we're not all that far apart.

What I generally react to in the debate over this issue is what I perceive to be the desire to minimize and gloss over the racist component that became - intentionally or not - a significant component of 9066; or efforts to deny that it ever existed.

I don't care how the 442nd may have been viewed in a less meritocratic society, or how racist the Japanese were/are/continue to be. I am an American, and so are/were the ancestors who made it possible. I don't see any value in viewing our conduct through the prism of another culture - particularly when we're at war with that culture. Our actions and behavior should be measured against our own standards and our own sense of right and wrong. Attributing insular Japanese perspectives as practiced by a totalitarian empire to Americans like my grandfather & great uncle was wrong (if it was right, then we should be sure to frisk evariste for a bomb vest).

That said, I also beieve FDR did what needed to be done. That doesn't mean 9066 shouldn't be dissected, and American policies ruthlessly evaluated for the good AND bad things they engender. We can learn a great deal from the post-mortem, and we should be honest about the findings.

I'm sure we can debate this endlessly, but I'm running out of gas. Again, our differences are relatively minor ones.

So I will close with a completely OT anecdote. Your engineering background reminds me of a remark made by an old boss years ago, after I asked about an engineer we had hired to do something or other:

"Typical engineer. Ask him what time it is, he'll tell you how to build a watch."

145 brianstien  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 4:30:05pm

I'm listening on the radio. He needs to stop thumping the podium.

146 brianstien  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 4:30:53pm

Crapola. Wrong thread.

147 Ronnie Schreiber  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 7:15:11pm

It's interesting that "Marshall" wouldn't leave an email address or url.

Since I'm the one who originally posted Fred Friendly's letter, if Marshall has a problem with its posting, he can take it up with me.

Do to a fortuitous coincidence, the letter was given to me at a Kinko's by an Aushwitz survivor and he asked me to read it at our Passover seder, which I did. Subsequent to that at the second seder and then at lunch on the second day of Passover, I mentioned the letter to my hosts and they both mentioned that their parents had been prisoners at Mauthausen. At that point I realized that my visit to Kinko's was not a coincidence and posted the sequence of events here at LGF because I thought that folks at lefty blogs were unfair to characterize Charles as a Nazi and that a little perspective was needed.

At that point, someone asked me to post the letter so I took some time on a very busy day when I should have been doing something like making money to pay my rent and electric bill and typed up the letter so it could be posted. I posted it on one of the comment threads here at LGF.

Because of the last two days of Passover I hadn't visited LGF since Sunday and only tonight found out that Charles had posted the letter on the LGF homepage. I have received a number of very touching emails from people thanking me for posting the FF letter. Interestingly, I also pointed folks to a page on my business website where I posted the letter for reference and jokingly suggested that someone might attack me as a Nazi for posting it, based on what Charles has experienced. Sadly, you proved my point.

I'm sorry if you are such a true believer that you cannot understand that people can disagree with your political ideologies and still be caring, truly liberal-minded people. I have friends and relatives that I love dearly that are to my political right and my political left. My life would be much poorer without all of them.

I'm sorry that you think you have a monopoly on righteousness. If you still have a problem with me posting the letter, take it up with the Aushwitz survivor who asked me to publicize it.

148 piglet  Tue, Apr 13, 2004 7:53:26pm
The pizza arrived. And it was covered in tentacles.

She finished her beer and left.

Um, Taco. Shredded octopus is not uncommon at potluck dinners in Hawaii. It's ono, broke de mouth.

I meet someone who was woking in Japan and had master japanese. He went into a store still wearing his motorcycle helmet ( a seven eleven type place) and ordered in japanese. He said he was treated well until he took off his helmet and they say he was not japanese, then the attitude became chilly.

Another man told me he was an American MP at an army base in Japan in the 1970's. At the time Japanese drivers licenses where more like passports, stamped with each infraction, mandatory to have with you, and almost impossible to replace if something happened to one.

This man said the MPs would pull over several Japanese drivers, take their licenses, put them out on the ground and then piss on them. Ugly Americans. Now te driver has
a license that smells bad, he cannot get a new one without having to tell the story of what happened, which I take was culturally almost impossible. The man who told me that died of complications from agent orange.

Perhaps the big question is not just why were the AJA's interned, but rather why weren't larger numbers of German and Italin Americans, particulrarly those who were members of Patriotic societies or just out and out Nazis?

As I have said before on other threads, it is hard to imagine that George Takai or Pat Mortia ( both interned as children) were threats to national security. I am certain that the 20,000 dollars a person reperations payment was no where near the value of land and houses lost in areas of California and other places where land values rose rapidly over the years.

149 zulubaby  Wed, Apr 14, 2004 1:24:54am

What a beautiful thread! That is, until you come to Marshall's post which are revolting. I'm trying not to let him ruin it for me. Marshall, I don't know what point you're trying to make, nor do I care, but you would do well to watch your words.

150 brianstien  Wed, Apr 14, 2004 5:51:33am

piglet

Friendly heads-up. It's tako.

Mmmm. Tako poke... I needs me some.

Mouth watering. And nothing for it except a day-old bagel.

Daamnn you, piglet! :-)

151 evariste  Wed, Apr 14, 2004 7:18:32am

I loved this thread. Even stupid Marshall sparked some thoroughly enjoyable reading from brianstien, Ronnie Schreiber, Dan McWiggins and piglet.


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