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Terror on the Dole

Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 8:10:09 am PDT

The radical British Muslims profiled in this story from London’s Evening Standard don’t really fit the definition of “fifth column,” because there’s nothing secret about their desire to cannibalize the body of their host: Terror on the dole. (Hat tip: Montaigne’s Cat.)

Four young British Muslims in their twenties - a social worker, an IT specialist, a security guard and a financial adviser - occupy a table at a fast-food chicken restaurant in Luton. Perched on their plastic chairs, wolfing down their dinner, they seem just ordinary young men. Yet out of their mouths pour heated words of revolution.

“As far as I’m concerned, when they bomb London, the bigger the better,” says Abdul Haq, the social worker. “I know it’s going to happen because Sheikh bin Laden said so. Like Bali, like Turkey, like Madrid - I pray for it, I look forward to the day.”

“Pass the brown sauce, brother,” says Abu Malaahim, the IT specialist, devouring his chicken and chips.

“I agree with you, brother,” says Abu Yusuf, the earnest-looking financial adviser sitting opposite. “I would like to see the Mujahideen coming into London and killing thousands, whether with nuclear weapons or germ warfare. And if they need a safehouse, they can stay in mine - and if they need some fertiliser [for a bomb], I’ll tell them where to get it.”

His friend, Abu Musa, the security guard, smiles radiantly. “It will be a day of joy for me,” he adds, speaking with a slight lisp.

As they talk, a man with a bushy beard, dressed in a jacket emblazoned with the word “Jihad”, stands and watches over them, handing around cups of steaming hot coffee. His real name is Ishtiaq Alamgir, but he goes by his adopted name, Sayful Islam, meaning “Sword of Islam”. He is the 24-year-old leader of the Luton branch of al-Muhajiroun, an extremist Muslim group with about 800 members countrywide, who regard Osama bin Laden as their hero. ...

...it was the events of 11 September that crystallised Sayful’s worldview. “When I watched those planes go into the Twin Towers, I felt elated,” he says. “That magnificent action split the world into two camps: you were either with Islam and al Qaeda, or with the enemy. I decided to quit my job and commit myself full-time to al-Muhajiroun.” Now he does not consider himself British. “I am a Muslim living in Britain, and I give my allegiance only to Allah.”

According to Sayful, the aim of al-Muhajiroun (“the immigrants”) is nothing less than Khilafah - “the worldwide domination of Islam”. The way to achieve this, he says, is by Jihad, led by Bin Laden. “I support him 100 per cent.”

Does that support extend to violent acts of terrorism in the UK?

“Yes,” he replies, unequivocally. "When a bomb attack happens here, I won’t be against it, even if it kills my own children. Islam is clear: Muslims living in lands that are occupied have the right to attack their invaders.

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299 comments

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1 Mike7411  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:11:21am

Paid terror, by the state... first?

2 Cato the Elder  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:14:58am

Dear Brits:

Can anyone say "Apache helicopter"???

Time to get Israeli on these asshats.

3 Formermuslim  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:15:32am
Muslims living in lands that are occupied have the right to attack their invaders.

Appearently Britain is considered retroactively occupied muslim land, or something.

4 Son ofa Pig and a Monkey  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:15:49am

Brought to you by the RoP...

5 A  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:16:12am
Islam is clear: Muslims living in lands that are occupied have the right to attack their invaders.

The UK is occupied land. The British are occupiers. Muslims in Britain have the right to resist the occupation. Are you listening Mr. Straw?

6 Bubbaman  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:17:00am

Email this article to as many of your LLL friends as possible - perhaps their vision will suddenly be restored.

7 ralphnorton  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:17:04am

It would be best if the USA targets the radical muslim clerics with permnament removal from the surface of the earth, not only the Iraqi clerics but worldwide. These radical clerics should have the opportunity to meet Mohammed personally in HELL

8 Barking Pumpkin  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:17:22am

When the terrorists attack London, I hope the Brits show the same kind of resolve against the Islamonazis that they did against Hitler's Nazis during WWII, otherwise they're the same kind of toast that Spain is.
They should start deporting these parasites now, before they can do any further damage. But alas, they won't.

9 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:17:28am

I can respect that. I am very tolerant. Islam means peace.


/sarcasm

10 pantat  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:19:30am

well you can certianly appease that mentality...

Get some helmets, my british bretherin, us and Israel are the only countries left with resolve.


p.s. Arabs (Is France out of the question?)

11 genard  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:20:22am

Time for an Allegiance to Native Law Act. Those who swear to obey and uphold duly constituted law of the land in which they reside may stay; those who do not are exiled and deported.

12 Poitiers-Lepanto  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:20:36am
I am a Muslim living in Britain, and I give my allegiance only to Allah


Deport the invaders.

We will not do it, because we are so good and nice.
And doomed.

13 Ben-ami  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:21:29am

Does Britain simply have no laws against sedition and treason?

14 JohninLondon  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:22:04am

Charles - I had posted on another thread this similar story in the Sun - which reaches a very wide audience :

[Link: www.thesun.co.uk...]

15 Atwood  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:22:28am

Well, if they bomb the UK, I'm sure they will have deserved it. A Small price to pay , to attone for thier colonial, imperialist ways.

/sarcasm off

16 T. Jefferson  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:22:34am

Shocking new photo of the AraFish!

[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]


The Arab Lie Whose Time Has Come

17 WriterMom  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:22:34am

I love this part:

I want a martyr operation, where I kill my enemy." Are you saying, I probe, that you are looking to kill people yourself ? "Yes," Abu Musa says, "to kill and to be killed." He emphasises each word.

If it's on the web, and in this publication-perhaps they shouldn't be LOCKED UP???

And, I love that a David Cohen wrote the article. I guess he wasn't afraid to be murdered by his interview subjects.

18 Greg  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:22:55am

These asshats are still walking around...why aren't the real National Front/White People/Traditional Brit killing these fuckers that want to kill them in their own land...

After these kind of statements that the 5/6 of humanity better put an end to the 1/6 of humanity that would sacrifice their children and make this planet a charnelhouse....

We have been warned.

19 hellcat  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:23:17am

Reads like a movie script, but it ain't.

20 mustrum  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:24:52am

#10
France will get its dose of Arab asswhoopage soon enough. Just desserts, n'est ce pas mes amis?

/tee hee

21 Clark Golem Kent  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:25:15am

Of course, we are racists and haters, and these Islamo-fasc...er, Islamo-nice-guys are peaceful and tolerant. What a kindness it would be to let these people experience paradise, sooner, not later. I say we don't deport them. Just punch their tickets to paradise.

22 editor  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:25:17am

Did you see the final paragraph? Where he threatens retaliation if the raids are repeated?

More Islamic bluster. If retaliation is called for, let's see them try it now. Why wait for next time?

23 Capt. Queeg  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:25:52am

I'm assuming these clowns will be arrested?

/wishful thinking

24 creepycrawl  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:26:14am

The articles's money quote is this:

"The mosques say one thing to the public, and something else to us. Let's just say that the face you see and the face we see are two different faces," says Abdul Haq. "Believe me," adds Musa, "behind closed doors, there are no moderate Muslims."

25 scooter  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:26:34am

Sayful is an idiot. He makes no sense.

Islam is clear: Muslims living in lands that are occupied have the right to attack their invaders.

He's a muslim, an immigrant, living in England and the Brits are the "invaders"? He's the subject of an invasion?

Give me a break.

26 Solomon X  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:26:39am
But Sayful and his friends laugh at the idea that they are local pariahs. "The mosques say one thing to the public, and something else to us. Let's just say that the face you see and the face we see are two different faces," says Abdul Haq. "Believe me," adds Musa, "behind closed doors, there are no moderate Muslims."

Well there you have it.

27 Sta-Puft  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:26:49am

Somebody really ought to take these kids for a ride.

28 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:28:04am

#5 A

I noticed that comment when I read the articlein The Standard last night. UK is occupied?!? Uhm, maybe Wales, Scotland and Ireland, but Luton?

HAHAHAHA! They can have the place, it's a shit hole!

29 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:28:45am

RoPMA

Now, I don't want to get off on a rant here, but what does it take to wake up the LLL to the fact that we're not in this simply for oil, for power, or for any other host of conspiracy theories they can spin to give themselves the moral high ground, but for our very survival. These the same sort of people who said that Hitler was a man who simply wanted peace. They said that Stalin loved his people. That the North Vietnamese were benevolent and understanding.

Seriously, how long does this dog and pony show have to go on? How many thousands more have to die before they'll admit they were wrong and get with the friggin' program? 9/11 wasn't an accident, a Mossad plot, retaliation for the US' treatment of Arab countries, or orchestrated by the Bush administration for political gain. It was the first in what will become a far greater death toll unless we defeat the enemy at ours gates. And you don't utterly defeat an enemy by negotiating with him until you're left with nothing to use as leverage.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

30 Barking Pumpkin  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:29:21am
"The mosques say one thing to the public, and something else to us. Let's just say that the face you see and the face we see are two different faces," says Abdul Haq. "Believe me," adds Musa, "behind closed doors, there are no moderate Muslims."

That about sums up all of Islam.

31 mustrum  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:29:44am

#27
A long ride off a short stretch of highway

32 Doss  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:31:47am
According to Sayful, the aim of al-Muhajiroun ("the immigrants") is nothing less than Khilafah - "the worldwide domination of Islam".


But Sayful and his friends laugh at the idea that they are local pariahs. "The mosques say one thing to the public, and something else to us. Let's just say that the face you see and the face we see are two different faces," says Abdul Haq. "Believe me," adds Musa, "behind closed doors, there are no moderate Muslims."


Why in the world the LLLers don't take these nutjobs at their word is a mystery to me. They do lie about their true intentions some of the time, but the other half of the time, they're right out in the open about their desire to make the whole world Islamic or kill all the infidels or push Israel into the sea. After 9-11, it's insane to think that these threats are teenage or Third World bravado and posturing.

33 Barking Pumpkin  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:31:49am

#24 creepycrawl

Gret minds…

34 Son ofa Pig and a Monkey  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:31:58am

#29

Right on. Someone should forward the article to 9/11 commission and it can then disolve itself as "all has been revealed"

35 mustrum  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:32:26am

The idea of fighting a war is the same as for all fighting, it's to stop the other guy from hitting you as soon as possible. Everything else is windowdressing (apologies to T. Pratchett).

Let's whoop them first, out, down and away, and then ask questions.

36 Barking Pumpkin  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:33:03am

#24 creepycrawl

I meant "great minds". :-P


Preview is my friend.

37 DP111  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:33:34am

CHARLES:

How can you keep bringing all this stuff to our attention without getting really fed up and depressed? I for one couldnt stand it, and would after sometime, avert my eyes and mind.

But thank you all the same.

38 uvaprep  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:33:35am

i really really wish i was at that fast food restaurant when that interview took place.

right now i'm one pissed off muthaf**ka in a brooks brothers suit and pink tie.

39 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:33:45am

By the way, this article was re-written today in the Sun which is read by over 10 million Brits and is a staunch supporter of the US. They are also Abu Hamza's bane!

40 Scott Burgess  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:34:05am

Here's more on this story and a similar case, along with a look at how the Labour government treats loyal citizens who've been shafted:

Rogue State Finances Traitors, Spurns Loyal Citizens

41 Smit  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:34:26am

JWarrior

HAHAHAHA! They can have the place, it's a shit hole!

I wouldn't even let them have Moss Side. Highbury, however...

;)

42 TalkinKamel  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:37:40am

One of them is a social worker. I love it!

/flips off the sarcasm switch.

And the minute anyone suggests that maybe these goons ought to be kicked off the dole, or, even deported, or, even arrested, since they are, after all, threatening to murder people, some fool like "Open Mind" will pop up, like the mechanical mole in a whack-a-mole game, and scold us for being "selfish". Then they'll tell us America/England/Western Europe is just as bad, if not worse, than the terrorists. And they howl every time there's a suggestion that we cut off funding to Egypt, the PLO or any number of other dangerous entities.

What it all boils down to is that the taxpaying public, both here and in America, is being asked to pay for their own hired killers. If they balk at this, they are being "selfish."

43 DP111  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:38:07am

From the Evening Standard article

"I am a Muslim living in Britain, and I give my allegiance only to Allah."

This something that one hears more and more. If I remember right, Amir who criticised Robert Spencers Jihad watch, was also of the same persuasion.

44 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:38:14am

Here are the results of today's Sun poll on UK signing up to the EU constitution:

NO - 97% 36,392 votes
YES - 3% 987 votes

Now we are getting a Euro referendum after Blair's historic u-turn yesterday, I'm quite sure the UK will not become a part of the EU superstate.

45 Mississauga Matt  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:39:13am

#5 A

Don't know about the Brits, but we Canadians are evidently intruders on Muslim land... or maybe not.

Muslim explorers preceded Christopher Columbus to North America

46 Scott  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:39:39am

I hate to be mean, but just what would happen if Muslims suddenly became the targets?

47 David Simon  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:40:36am
It is hard to know whether Musa and Yusuf are deadly serious, or just pumped full of miguided, youthful bravado.

Oh those mischievous little imps, out to play a youthful prank of blowing up a building.

Get it through your thick heads leftists: These "people" aren't like us. They are sick, psychotic sons of bitches who must be destroyed before they kill us all.

48 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:43:34am

#41 Smit

Oooo, now you're just being cruel! ;)

I remember reading a few years ago about Bin Laden attending an Arsenal game in the early 90's and buying a shirt for his son!

Well, I guess no self-respecting Islamic arch terrorist would want to be seen down the Lane! It would be no good for his cave cred.

49 DP111  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:43:45am

Then there is the covenant of security that these people continually talk about. What this means is that they wont attack the country they are resident in. This does imply any compact but the real fear that the whole Ummah will be chucked out.

Moreover it allows them to attack other Western countries. So we can have French Muslims attacking Britain and 'Muslims living in Britain' attacking France or the US, and this will not be a violation of the covenant.

What a convenient covenant. Well to hell with all this covenant nonsense and playing semantics.

50 Pope Insouciance IV  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:43:45am

Consider this article the Islamic version of Mein Kampf.
You've been warned.

51 Bleeding heart conservative  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:43:48am

"Let's just say that the face you see and the face we see are two different faces."

So Islam means duplicity? Treachery? Mendacity? And you're proud of this?

Tell me why we should listen to groups like CAIR when they cry "hate crime"?

It seems that Britain's fifth column is less politically savvy than the USA's... our muhajiroun keep their cards close to their chest. They would be much less likely to state unequivocally that they want bombs to kill thousands and that they were elated by 9-11... so much so that they quit their job to join the fight. This man said that you're either with al Qaeda, or you're the "enemy"... to a reporter, giving his identity!!

You think maybe our "cowboy" 2nd amendment ways might intimidate our traitors from saying such things? Or maybe the patriot act?

Or maybe they're just plain stupid and MI5 will nab these little pissant cretins in the fullness of time.

A curse on the heads of these villains.

Anybody want to tell me that an evangelical Christian handing out tracts is more dangerous to society than this kind of bile? Guess which one the Left is fighting though.

52 Zhombre  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:45:51am

Parasites. Living off a civilization the accomplishments of which they cannot duplicate in their own culture, cannot even conceive of within the rigidities of that tribal, theocratized culture.

53 billhedrick  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:47:39am

Britain being occupied Islamic land... well you have to understand splodeydopes have a problem understanding cause and effect. 911 happened afterall because we invaded Afghanistan. If they move in and set up their mosques, you are the invaders not them.....

54 Bubbaman  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:47:41am

#42 TalkinCamel

So what?

Rant-sissy was a pediatrician...

Bin-Ladin was an engineer...

This just proves that Islam is an immoral religion that rationalizes evil.

55 Gordon  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:48:28am

Sorry LGF'ers, but I smell a Jayson Blair/Janet Cooke situation. If I were this guy's editor I'd want proof that he didn't make up these yo-yos.

56 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:49:29am

#53 billhedrick

Ah, is-logic at it's finest!

57 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:51:33am

#55 Gordon

You want proof? Go to Luton and see for yourself!

I live 25 miles from Luton and the only decent thing that has come out of that place is the VX220 Turbo from the Vauxhall/Opel/Gm factory.

58 Bleeding heart conservative  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:52:28am

Remember Columbine? Slate, yesterday:

Harris' pattern of grandiosity, glibness, contempt, lack of empathy, and superiority read like the bullet points on Hare's Psychopathy Checklist and convinced Fuselier and the other leading psychiatrists close to the case that Harris was a psychopath.

It begins to explain Harris' unbelievably callous behavior: his ability to shoot his classmates, then stop to taunt them while they writhed in pain, then finish them off. Because psychopaths are guided by such a different thought process than non-psychopathic humans, we tend to find their behavior inexplicable. But they're actually much easier to predict than the rest of us once you understand them. Psychopaths follow much stricter behavior patterns than the rest of us because they are unfettered by conscience, living solely for their own aggrandizement. (The difference is so striking that Fuselier trains hostage negotiators to identify psychopaths during a standoff, and immediately reverse tactics if they think they're facing one. It's like flipping a switch between two alternate brain-mechanisms.)

[Link: slate.msn.com...]

Compare with:

Abu Yusuf: “I would like to see the Mujahideen coming into London and killing thousands, whether with nuclear weapons or germ warfare. And if they need a safehouse, they can stay in mine - and if they need some fertiliser [for a bomb], I’ll tell them where to get it.”

Abu Musa: “It will be a day of joy for me.”

Sayful: “When I watched those planes go into the Twin Towers, I felt elated. That magnificent action split the world into two camps: you were either with Islam and al Qaeda, or with the enemy.”

Anyone want to tell me these men aren't psychopaths? Cowardly, toady, weak-willed, effete psychopaths, but ones just the same.

59 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:53:33am

The only other good thing about Luton is the airport because then you know you are leaving Luton!

60 OverWatch  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:53:56am

#55 Gordon

Have you never seen al muhajirouns website? Not seen previous reporting on them?

This is exactly what they think.

61 Poitiers-Lepanto  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:55:15am

#55 Gordon

I love your position !!!
The head under the sand and your big ass out naked in the wind.

You can just hope...

62 Bleeding heart conservative  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:56:48am

Gordon, is your reaction to this cognitive dissonance?

Do you not have enough evidence yet that this is a very common perspective? Do you not remember Talkback's Sebastian, his interviews with al Muhajiroun, stating very similar things on camera??

If you have muslim friends, they are either not friends, or not muslims.

63 LtTw  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:56:54am

It's official: Prayer call in Michigan.

"Doesn't that ring your chimes?"

Wonder how "soft and quiet" it is going to be....

(Might be different if somebody had told the truth, there.)

64 NY Nana  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 6:59:16am

They are dangerous idiots, and the UK cannot afford anymore to let them in. They come to a country that gives them everything, and they are takers and abusers, and although they are speaking in public, it is what they say in private that counts, and one can only imagine.

There has to be a way that Parliament and the PM can find a way to pass a law in Parliament that will severely limit, or even end the hordes of the cult of islam that are overwhelming the UK. Those that are there on the dole, while planning acts of terrorism belong in prison, and then deportation; not in the neighborhood Popeye's or curry shop.

I pray that London does not awaken to another 9/11. They certainly have had enough ominous developments, including the current alert. Are they so afraid to offend the arabs? Perhaps they should be more comcerned with their own citizens.

I wonder how many people no longer use the Underground out of fear? All over London there have been security devices for years..CCTV, concrete refuse bins, whole blocks with barriers so that cars cannot park, in strategic areas, and everyone knows how to call 999, etc., to report a suspicious package. Physically, London is far better equipped with security than NY, Yet they allow these ticking time bombs to openly discuss acts of terrorism. I do not think they are a bunch of kids sitting around trying to impress each other. They are terrorists in training. he screams from the ACLU wherever CCTV is proposed is obscene. No one's rights are violated if they are not doing anything wrong. CCTV can be invaluable in seeing trouble developing, and get the Met there in time to abort it. Here? Very few places have the security needed. I always feel safer in london, but no longer use the Tube.

PM Blair has far more important things to worry about than a referendum on the e. f'ing u........this is happening on his watch, and he has turned a blind eye far too long. He has been our closest ally in the coalition, yet he chooses to turn a blind eye to the enemy within.

65 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:01:10am

typical LLL reaction: If it doens't fit the LLL paradigm it must be false - trixy.

66 little ramallah  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:01:39am

55 Gordon

I've seen 'em in action with my own eyes. No need to make anything up. This is the pitch.

Still, if Luton doesn't drive a young man to jihad, I don't know what will.

67 LtTw  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:02:45am

OT: CNN camera crew detained near Dimona reactor

Israel less than thrilled.

68 Right Wing Conspirator  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:03:32am

Any DC/VA/MD folks interested in a meetup for Saturday email me. Thanks.

69 Model4  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:03:52am

Had this conversation happened in one of many American restaurants, these bastards would have been on the receiving end of a severe ass-beating, followed up by the cops and feds inspecting every nook and cranny of their diseased lives.

I really don't know what Blair's going to do when the bloodshed starts in Britain. They tried to lynch him over a fabricated Beeb story already. It's going to be pretty hard to defend against charges that potential terrorists and their groups were operating right out in the open, often times subsidized by money from the British government.

When I joined al-Muhajiroun four years ago, there were five local members. Now there are more than 50 and hundreds more support us. I made a decision to follow what Islam really says

Please lefties, by all means go tell these people that they "just don't understand Islam."

70 Avon  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:06:49am

I don't think they're referring to the UK as 'occupied', but about UK troops in Iraq. But it's irrelevant anyway, since al-Mujahiroun existed before the invasion of Iraq, and before 9/11, and they were spouting the same kind of crap then too. If anything bad does happen here, these people had better pray to their almighty god that the police pick them up before anyone else gets hold of them.

71 Poitiers-Lepanto  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:06:54am

#63 LtTW

Another success of the invaders.

We are doing great.
West is suicidal.

The left has succeeded in making us weak and confused.

72 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:08:45am

I'm not a Brit (just a fat, dumb, 'merikan), but I don't think deportation/immigration reform is going to work. What do the Brits posting here think should be done about all the British-born islamopsychos? From what I've read, you've got a serious problem there, also.

73 NY Nana  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:10:40am

#66 little ramallah

Still, if Luton doesn't drive a young man to jihad, I don't know what ill.

John O'Groats?

74 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:11:55am

#64 NY Nana

There has to be a way that Parliament and the PM can find a way to pass a law in Parliament that will severely limit, or even end the hordes of the cult of islam that are overwhelming the UK.

Not while the Socialist are in power here. TB talks big about the WOT but the members of his political party think that it's every immigrants human right to live in this country and so do the fat cat lawyers that get legal aid to represent these people. Until these people are stopped from doing what they are, Britain will never be able to control its borders.

I pray that London does not awaken to another 9/11. They certainly have had enough ominous developments, including the current alert

So do I, but I'm being to think that this is what is going to take to wake folks here up. Most people hate the crap that is going on, but are remaining silent. An attack and especially one on a football ground (our national passtime) might wake people up to what we face. But I know many people that at the moment would rather stick their heads in the sand like Gordon.

I wonder how many people no longer use the Underground out of fear?

None because they have to get to work and they have no other choice. The roads are sodded up by our 'dear' mayor Red Kenneth the Terrible who charges us to go into our own city, slaps parking fines onn cars if you stop at a red light and doesn't bother to repair roads. In the meantime our tube system is under funded and over crowded. If there was a terrorist attack on the tube, the casualty numbers would huge.

PM Blair has far more important things to worry about than a referendum on the e. f'ing u

You are wrong there. If he signed us up to the EU we would have our immigration quotas controlled by Brussels not here. We would also be at the mercy of whatever crackpot leaders was in charge of the EU at the time. Our defense policy would be tied to Europe rather than being able to mobilise with the US. In fact if we fullly joined the Eu, we could be stopped from providing an aid to the US in a time of war if the rest of the EU didn't agree.

The fight against the UK joining the Eu is everybit as important as the WOT and the security of our country.

75 doorknob  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:13:25am

Trouble is these guys see everything on the planet as their land and therefore occupied.

Seems they have alot of double standards one of which is that everyone should welcome them with open arms wherever THEY want to rest their hat, but we gotta stay out of their lands?

76 Poitiers-Lepanto  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:16:39am

OT

FoxNews/ AP

(We go on with the PC war...)


"FALLUJAH, Iraq — Up to 40 Iraqi insurgents attacked U.S. Marines in northern Fallujah on Wednesday, setting off a heavy gunbattle as an agreement bringing peace to the besieged city hit snags a day after implementation began.
Explosions were heard coming from the scene of the fighting, and Cobra helicopter gunships were blasting with Gatling guns from the air.
The attack came as U.S. Marine commanders said no guerrillas have come forward so far to turn in their heavy weapons, a key tenet of the agreement that began being implemented on Tuesday. The Marines, in response, halted a key commitment on their side in the deal, the return of Fallujah residents to the city.
The attack began just after daybreak when the insurgents launched a frontal assault on the Marines position with a barrage of rocket-propelled grenades and small arms fire, Marines said. Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne said there were Marine casualties but would not give details."


This is the great punishment of Fallujah...Oh, yeah...

77 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:17:37am

Little Ramallah

Still, if Luton doesn't drive a young man to jihad, I don't know what will.

How about that little bit at the bottom of the Edgware Road just before Marble Arch?

78 Avon  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:22:39am

#72 grayp

One option would be an 'invisible Gitmo': just make anyone even vaguely connected with the jihadis disappear, and deny everything. They could be kept in good conditions, well looked-after, etc. The government could just say they'd gone abroad, to join a jihadi training camp or whatever.

79 little ramallah  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:25:34am
How about that little bit at the bottom of the Edgware Road just before Marble Arch?

LOL, Kuwait on Thames, you mean?

I'm looking forward to summer for some more half naked cycling round those parts. Confuses the hell out of the burqa set. Isn't this OUR part of town? Did my daughter really just ogle an infidel on wheels? Allah protect us!

Mint tea's good, though.

80 LtTw  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:26:33am

#51 Bleeding heart conservative

"Let's just say that the face you see and the face we see are two different faces."

So Islam means duplicity? Treachery? Mendacity? And you're proud of this?


Yes, that's all quite correct. Their spiritual "father" was a serious student of the Father of Lies. So a treaty with unbelievers may not last longer than 10 years (No's example), you may say anything to achieve the goal of Islogic (Mo's instructions), etc.

Been that way from the beginning. This is the real face of the Deceiver, rejoicing in hate and wallowing in blood. Now he isn't hiding, but is revealed and reveling in his bloodlust. His "children" can only be turned by the direct intervention of the Almighty.

That is why there is no logical sense. That is why now is a good time to pray.

Or you could try reasoning with them, again....

81 nonic  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:26:41am

#11 genard

Making them swear allegiance to national law wouldn't do any good, since it's the muslilm prerogative (duty?) to lie to infidels to advance islam.

82 Curious  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:28:18am

74 JD Warrior

Agree with everything you say with just one quibble:

The fight against the UK joining the Eu is everybit as important as the WOT and the security of our country.

We ARE in the EU - you mean the fight against signing up to the EU Constitution. The implications of doing so are exactly as you say.

This is very unlikely to happen now that we're getting a referendum. The Sun, which has a huge readership has done a poll saying 97% against.

83 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:29:35am

#78 Avon

One option would be an 'invisible Gitmo': just make anyone even vaguely connected with the jihadis disappear,

Well, I think the only thing that really works with these guys is defeat so complete they have no way to deny it. To have some disappear into thin air leaves those remaining with the delusion they can still win.

Another thing that's tickling the back of my mind; I don't mean to poo-poo any of this, but alot of these guys seem to me to just be running their mouths. Allah knows there are plenty of opportunities to go off somewhere and make real jihad with real 'splosives, but a remarkable number of these swaggering twits seem unable to avail themselves of them.

84 nonic  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:30:02am

#15 Atwood

if they bomb the UK

They WILL bomb the UK.

Sobering thought.... which the writer of this article doesn't seem to be able to manage. If you read the whole thing, he seems absolutely brain-dead. Yet, I suppose, just the fact that it got published...........

85 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:30:54am
86 Mark Holland  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:31:18am

For 2 and a half years up until the middle of last year I lived 10miles east of Luton and apart, from driving from Stopsley, down the link road past Vauxhalls and the airport to the M1, I never ever went there. I went all around, Dunstable, Toddingon, Woburn, Harpenden, but never into Luton. If the jihadis blew a crater from Houghton Regis to the Marsh Park I don't think the rest of the country would really notice. I'd still through these assholes ought of the back of a Hercules over Baluchistan though.

87 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:31:43am

#78 Avon

You are right.

When my grandfather came to the UK they put him in an internment camp for six months. He may have been a persecuted Jew, but in their eyes he was a German. There was nothing he could do, he had to deal with it just as he had to deal with the knowledge that his entire family was dead.

You wouldn't see that today. They just let anyone in with any old sob story and they are free to go where they want, claim state benefits and plot the demise of the nation because that is their 'human rights' according to our government.

88 Sheriff Will Kane  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:33:06am

#55

“Pass the brown sauce, brother,” says Abu Malaahim, the IT specialist, devouring his chicken and chips.
If I were this guy's editor I'd want proof that he didn't make up these yo-yos.

No that's true. I always devour my meal at KFC. If only they served Kentucky Fried Ham.

89 Emperor Norton  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:34:00am

#78 Avon,

One option would be an 'invisible Gitmo': just make anyone even vaguely connected with the jihadis disappear, and deny everything.

"Disappear" them? And make the fantasies of the Black Bloc and the rest of the Moronic Convergence protestors come true? Oh joy!

90 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:34:20am
91 ms heather  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:36:10am

Someone please tell me that this scum is behind bars.


Or better yet, kicked out of the country?

92 Model4  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:36:29am

#83 grayp: Remember that guy in high school that just transfered in, whose slang was a year or two outdated, and was asking any and everyone about scoring drugs in the most blatant terms?

93 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:36:51am
94 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:37:44am

#90 bigel

Change the fucking record!

95 Martel-Sobieski  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:39:19am

London Calling, . . .

/tick...tick...tick...tick...tick...

96 little ramallah  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:39:22am

72

I'd expect more of the same in future. Amazing incompetence (this guy is on welfare benefits?!?), lots of new immigrants, legal BS (Bakri is still here on those grounds alone), plenty of political idiocy.

But more of the same will include good work from MI5 and the police. Actually, that's more more of the same. MI5's budget is being ramped up by 50%. I think it is safe to assume the new officers and toys will not be used to track Buddhists.

97 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:40:14am

#89 Emperor Norton

"Disappear" them? And make the fantasies of the Black Bloc and the rest of the Moronic Convergence protestors come true? Oh joy!

Indeed. It's one thing to humor the idiots and nuts as they rant about the "shadowy government" and its sinister plots. It is a whole 'nother mess to prove the nuts right. Because one you prove them right once, you put the idea into the heads of regular people that if they were right about one thing, the loons must be at least partially right about everything else.

98 Good Grief  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:41:49am

#90

It's a terrible shame that those who sent the British Jews to the Nazi extermination camps have gone unpunished...

99 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:42:21am

#92 Model4 - Aw, man, that was me!

Just kidding.

But the point I made in an earlier post is that alot of these people have not transferred in - they're Brits by birth.

Can Britain revoke the citizenship of native Brits and then kick 'em out?

100 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:42:51am
101 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:44:39am
102 lmg  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:44:41am

#8:

They should start deporting these parasites now, before they can do any further damage. But alas, they won't.

Why not? Why not? That's what I don't understand. Western nations are inviting in the very people who seek to destroy us, and claim that nothing can be done about it. It's BS in the service of cultural suicide. I do not get it.

103 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:45:08am

Bigel,

The crap you come out with shows you know nothing about life in the UK and that you have nothing constructive to add to this thread other than your normal sweeping generalisations about anti-semitic British people.

You aren't prepared to listen to the experiences of your fellow Jews who live here and who try to try to explain the true situation to you. You just dismiss it out of hand because, like the LLL, it doesn't fit in with your views of the world.

I think that says a lot about you as a person. None of it very good.

104 Poitiers-Lepanto  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:45:15am

#94 JWarrior

Maybe it should be Europe to change record...Maybe they should have not sold their whole continent to the arabs...just a few tens of years after the Holocaust.

And where, and if, Bigel is wrong, is only in the fact that he imagines these european politicians as thinking persons: instead these guys are just the puppets of the arabs (in different degrees, OK, Berlusconi is not Zapatero and Blair is not Chirac...).

But they are allowing the invasion to go on and they have doomed Europe.
No differences in this.

And we are doing the same.

105 Bleeding heart conservative  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:45:46am

"Sayful Islam, for one, is particularly proud of his contribution to Luton's hardline reputation. His exploits include covering the town with "Magnificent 19" posters glorifying the 11 September suicide bombers. "When I joined al-Muhajiroun four years ago, there were five local members," he says. "Now there are more than 50 and hundreds more support us." "

Everybody remember that poster?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

106 Bleeding heart conservative  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:46:40am

Um, poster here:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

107 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:48:12am
108 fugio  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:50:54am

#69

His friend, Abu Musa, the security guard, smiles radiantly. “It will be a day of joy for me,” he adds, speaking with a slight lisp.

How do you lisp that sentence? The answer, I'd guess, is "In Arabic". No ass-beating.

We really need more foreign language studies (especially Arabic) and a quick end to Muslim immigration.

109 Lewis in Fort Orange  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:51:01am

#85 bigel

Save some "o"s for the rest of us.

Once again, I present the correct 'intarweb thingy' spelling:

j00z

lowercase j, two zeros, lowercase z

Conservation of the letter o. Think globally, act locally!

110 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:52:38am
111 Poitiers-Lepanto  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:52:52am

#102 lmg

Why not? Why not? That's what I don't understand. Western nations are inviting in the very people who seek to destroy us, and claim that nothing can be done about it. It's BS in the service of cultural suicide. I do not get it.

I don't understand it either.
Sometimes I think that all the Western leaders have been bought.
Sometimes I think they are too arrogant to see the danger.
Sometimes I think that the left has created a pillow of propaganda so thick around our heads that we are just choking.

But surely , even on this forum, very few see what should be done. Very few. And this will cost to our Countries shiploads of blood.

112 The Other Elizabeth  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:54:07am

#37

I want to know. I want to be awake and aware. And I want to stay pissed. Because then they'll fear us. It seems to be the only thing they understand.

After all, we've been fighting this war off and on for over 1,000 years. These people are claiming land that hasn't been theirs for over 512 years (Spain) and land that has NEVER been theirs (England). They want worldwide Islamic domination.

And I, for one, am not going to give it to them. At least not without a fight.

The Other Elizabeth
Imperial Keeper

113 andthenblammo!  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:54:29am

#92 Model4:

You mean the guy who wore white socks and brown shoes with his bell-bottoms? Funny, I never see him at reunions...............I like your theory, would that it were true.

114 little ramallah  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:55:26am

99 grayp

Yes, the government gained new powers to strip people of their citizenship back in 2002. Abu Hamza was the first target. AFAIK, the legal process is ongoing (groan).

115 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:58:56am

#107 bigel

Oh, I'm sorry I must have missed your visit, to my dirty stinking house. Please inform of your arrival next time and I will get the slaves to clean it up.

When was the last time you were in Britain, Bigel? When was the last time you lived in the UK and experienced life here long enough to know it smells like shit?

You don't know what it is like to walk down the road as a Jew living in Britain. You only think you do based on scraps of information you are fed by a biased media.

You haven't visited properly, you are just smelling the dog shit left on the lawn by the international media. And believe me, the same nasty doggy shit smell is coming from your lawn too!

116 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:59:09am
117 andthenblammo!  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:01:07am

#116 bigel:

Oh, it's swell; my head glows in the dark, and the mutated cockroaches ate the dog. But, I persevere.

118 Jean  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:01:50am

America's Compassion in Iraq is Self-Destructive

Fighting a compassionate war is immoral; it is costing the lives of American soldiers in Iraq and emboldening our enemies throughout the Islamic world.

119 Good Grief  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:02:50am

#107

Well, I am the outsider, and the stench is Jew-hatred.

I think Tory leader Michael Howard would be rather surprised by that.

#115

And believe me, the same nasty doggy shit smell is coming from your lawn too!

It's been there so long he doesn't see it anymore.

120 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:03:07am
121 Big Digger  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:06:19am

Yet when we talk about killing Islamozoids such as these, we're referred to as racists who are full of hate and so forth while the various leftist hemorrhoids give the Islamozoids a free pass.

F.E.T.E.

Let's just kill the Islamozoids now rather than later.

122 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:06:31am

#110

Let's take your logic a step further. I never lived in Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, or the modern day Arab world.

Re: Germany and Russia, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Re: Modern day arab world - Britain is not the modern day arab world. Britain is Britain.

Does that mean I have no right to accuse them of rabid Jew-hatred either?

Bigel, you would accuse anyone who isn't Jewish of rabid Jew-hatred. You have some major persecution complex. You remind of the black folk who moan about their lives being so bad, because their great-great grandparents were sold into slavery. You act like victim.

I bet if anything goes wrong in your life like you don't get a job, you're the sort of person who says 'oh well the interviewer obviously didn't like Jews'. You see anti-semitism everywhere, even in those places where none exists.

123 Steve  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:07:02am

Why doesn't MI5 make these losers disappear?

124 J.D.  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:11:26am

Bleeding Heart Conservative #105 and #106

Yeah, I remember it. Must still be looking for a way to martyr itself. How frustrating and humiliating for it.

125 Avon  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:14:39am

#83 grayp

You're right I think, the authorities probably don't take these people seriously. It's the ones who don't shoot their mouths off who are likely to be the problem.

#87 JWarrior

That's pretty harsh on your grandfather. It is amazing how times have changed, as you say. Immigration needn't be a big problem, as there are plenty of people from South America, China, etc, who could fill the quotas. We just need to say 'no' to certain countries...

#89 Emperor Norton

Yep, then start disappearing a few of them as well. The snatch squads could be made over by Hollywood special fx people, so that they look rather scaly. And they'd be in black helicopters too, of course.

126 NY Nana  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:15:42am

#74 JWarrior

First of all, let me say that Red Ken is someone I hate. The congestion charge is devious, and I can't even imagine what it is like, as it is 3 years since our last trip, as it was not yet in effect. We stay in Bromley, with friends, but come up to London (Connex to Victoria) a few times a week. In Bromley, they seem to be multiplying tremendously, but I cannot say if it is that they are there for the day, to shop in the Glades, or if they are residents. That oh, so clever tennis shoe schmuck was a Bromley boy, Richard Reed. One of my dearest friends died last August, and lived in Hendon. She was Orthodox, and whenever she and her brother would drive us to Hendon from the West End, we would pass that enormous mosque. Even in Hendon and Golders Green we saw mislims. Now a mosque is no longer a novelty...ah, Finsbury Park, Stamford Hill, and nearly every neighborhood has one.

However, Red Ken is a flaming enemy of anyone even left of center, and going in the right direction. In addition, I find him to be a blatant Jew hater, cum anti-Israel. I was there when the GLC was abolished. I have been coming over for about 20 years, and am proud of my Anglo/Jewish heritage. (My grandfather OBM was an East Ender). Re the Tube? As you know, we have had a lot of alerts here, and the fear is palpable re the subway system, and ridership is down a bit, but the raise in prices also is a part of the problem, and has lead to the inevitable increases in traffic, and of course, a call for a congestion fee.

New Labour is a joke. I do not, though, hold much confidence in the Tories winning, yet I think that Blair has passed his sell-by date, and looks like he is older than HM. I would cry, to be honest, if the UK fully enters the E.U. What do the MEP's actually do for the UK? Will Blair get the referendum through? The Chunnel was in many ways a mistake, but the E.U.???????

But I know many people that at the moment would rather stick their heads in the sand like Gordon

In the sand? That is too kind, as vast the majority picture his head implanted firmly in his bum.

I realize that the UK has allowed these monsters in, as they were once under British rule. Yet at the same time they are entering in record numbers, and also using the Chunnel as a road (do the french still turn a blind eye?), after 9/11, and given the tremendous emotional support we got from the Brits, and now, as a part of the coalition, there seems to be a missing link; the recognition that the cult of islam is the enemy of us all, and that continuing to permit them into the country is causing a frightful threat.

Now a terrorist attack in Saudi, a monstrous one last night in Basrah, and we in the West wonder where next. If PM Blair does not do something very quickly, then G-d help the UK. We are worried about another attack as our elections approach, but most people think it will not happen to them, but to the other guy. Unlike gordon, let us pray they will wake up.

127 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:16:16am

#120 bigel

Just as with your media, our media doesn't represent the feelings of the average man on the street. The media is biased here just as it is there in the US.

We have our dodgy socialists, so do you! We have Islamic extremists calling for Jihad against the country, so do you (remember the bloke that wanted a US intifada? Saw him Bill O on Fox news the other night! Nice guy! Shouldn't you kick him out?). We have a biased, untrustworthy media, so do you. We have anti-semites, so do you. We have Israel unfriendly politicians, so do you!

Do I need to go on?

128 Sheriff Will Kane  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:18:10am

#122

You see anti-semitism everywhere, even in those places where none exists.

Is there such a place? Aside from Lapland, and Antarctica.

OT: I posted this at the Forum regarding Dennis Prager's article yesterday. I received an email from Spirit of America today because I donated to their cause. Here is their response.

"Last night the Wall St. Journal's Dan Henninger was on Nightly Business Report on PBS. He spoke about Spirit of America and the donor response generated in large measure by his recent column. It's a great piece. Please read it below. The impact of Dan's column was augmented mightily by the relatively unsung efforts of bloggers and by many of you forwarding messages to friends and families.

Here are the results. Overwhelming. Incredible. In the last five days we have received $764,408 from 4,088 donors. Most of these funds are earmarked for the request made by the Marines for equipment needed to establish Iraqi-owned television stations in Al Anbar Province Iraq (described here: [Link: www.spiritofamerica.net...] Our initial goal for this request was $100,000. The Marines are as stunned as I am. I'll remove the expletives of joyful surprise and forward some of their comments to you next week. They are also developing ideas for the expansion of this initiative. More on that soon.

We are pressing ahead with fundraising. We understand we're at the very beginning of the effort needed to achieve peace and stability in Iraq. The Marines and others serving in Iraq have made clear that all the support we can muster will greatly assist their efforts to win the peace. Rest assured we do not confuse success in donor support with the real results we all seek to achieve. The real work lies ahead. But the funding makes the results possible and we now have a great foundation to build upon."

Way to go LGFers!!!

129 Bruce  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:20:00am

Why isn't there more outrage at the illegal English occupation of England? Perhaps Chris Patten can take this pressing matter up with the European Courts of Civil Rights. Until justice is done, English support for their illegal occupation of England will only perpetuate the cycle of violence.

130 bait_ball  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:21:50am
His friend, Abu Musa, the security guard, smiles radiantly. “It will be a day of joy for me,” he adds, speaking with a slight lisp.

Not nearly as joyful as it will be for me to see a mushroom cloud over mecca. In'shallah.

131 D.C. Law  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:28:42am

JWarrior - Oh come on. Cartoons of Sharon eating babies wins a national award? Jack Straw all but calling for Israel to disappear? An intellectual/leadership class that celebrates the fact that it is again possible to express disdain and hate for Jews in polite company? A UN record that is on the south side of abysmal?

Not to say there aren't Brits who stand by Jews and Israel, but honestly, who are you kidding?

132 NY Nana  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:29:36am

#87 J Warrior

When my grandfather came to the UK they put him in an internment camp for six months. He may have been a persecuted Jew, but in their eyes he was a German. There was nothing he could do, he had to deal with it just as he had to deal with the knowledge that his entire family was dead.

That gave me the shivers. Yom HaShoah must be very hard on you.My friend OBM was the daughter of an Anglo/Jewish mother and an Austrian Jew. He and his whole family came to the UK in the 1920's. His siblings had all become British subjects, but his mother and he had not, for whatever reason. They were interred as enemy aliens on either the Isle of Wight or the Isle of Man...can't remember. My friend's Mum wrote a letter to Queen Elizabeth, asking for help, as they were Jews, and had come to the UK to escape hate. The letter was actually given credence, and they were released. My friend's Dad owned a small company that did nearly all the magnificent hand beaded embroidery for Hartnell's elegant court gowns. Immediately they applied for citizenship, and my friend, her Mum and younger brother spent the war as evacuees in the North.

You have every reason to be furious with the system as it exists now. We are no better here.

133 Keelie  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:30:12am

#49 - DP111

Driving up Park Lane in London a couple of months ago, I watched a HUGE procession of Muslims marching to protest the ban on headscarves... IN FRANCE!!!

So what you're saying is not so far-fetched; it's international... knows no national boundaries...

134 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:31:01am

#131 DC Law

Jack Straw all but calling for Israel to disappear?

Are you serious? WTF did I miss?

135 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:36:42am

#126 NY Nana

New labour is old Labour but with a guy who can smile and doesn't have a problem lying to the public. I think the Tories are in with a good chance this time. Michael Howard ripped Blair apart yesterday over the EU referendum u-turn. He called Blair 'The Grand Old Duke of Spin' which I thought was hilarious!

I think Blair is rapidly losing the faith of the electorate. He has been caught lying, spinning and double dealing too many times. These days anything that comes out of a Labour MP's mouth should be taken to mean the exact oppersite.

The French shut the refugee camp near the Calais crossing after we promised to accept all or most of the people residing there. We did so and now there is a apparently another camp there instead and the problem remains.

Under the socialists, people are taking the UK for complete mugs!

136 Joel  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:43:16am

al Guardian, al Reuters, Das Independent, the BeeBeeCee will still hate Isreal no matter what these fantics do.

137 Model4  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:44:09am

#127 JWarrior: For whatever it's worth, our jihadis in the US don't feel free to preach jihad when confronted by the media. We get a quote by a student that overhears them, and when challenged by the press it's "That was out of context, religion of peace, of course we condemn all violence" evasions. That doesn't appear to be the case in the UK. While it can be good in many ways to have them be more up front about their ideology, I'd say the UK jihadis are by far more emboldened.

#128 Sheriff Will Kane: Wow! That is massive good news. So glad they advertised here, hope they got more than their money back from LGFers, and am glad I was able to contribute. This says to me that the American public is plenty willing to back our efforts to win, we just need leadership that is focused and aggressive toward the enemy so we can get behind them.

138 RC neo-Jew  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:44:46am

Abu Hamza wins right to legal aid

AN EXTREMIST Muslim cleric must be given legal aid to finance his battle to stay in Britain, a committee of senior lawyers has ruled.

Abu Hamza al-Masri, 46, the former imam of Finsbury Park mosque, had been refused public funds for his appeal against the Home Secretary’s removal of his British citizenship.

But The Times has discovered that a three-member legal panel has overturned that decision and declared that Abu Hamza is entitled to taxpayers’ money to pay for legal representation.

Aaargh!

It's bad enough Chris Patten handing over my tax money to palestinian terrorists, without more of my hard-earned cash paying for this.

139 genard  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:46:16am

#81 Nonic,

Making them swear allegiance to national law wouldn't do any good, since it's the muslilm prerogative (duty?) to lie to infidels to advance islam.


No, but lying constitutes grounds for prosecution. But I think a state's pledge of allegiance to its national laws could be written in such a way that it requires an explicit denial of Sharia. .....No law is superior in the governance of national affairs....

Maybe the Muslims will want to swear on the Qur'an.

140 J.D.  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:48:59am
141 RC neo-Jew  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:52:02am

Meanwhile, local BBC news reports that the police have been raiding more homes in the Manchester area, looking for terrorists.

142 Jean  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:52:14am

#127 JWarrior

I'd have to disagree that the US and England are about the same when it comes to the 5th column and coddling Islamists. I was in London for a few weeks in November 2001 - my first time there - and I was shocked. There was a parade protesting the US action in Afghanistan. Muslims took over Trafalger Square with their prayer rugs and anti-semitic and anti-western signs. That evening on the news men in arab garb were screaming about how this is all because of the jews. This was just two months after 9-11. You wouldn't see something like that in the US.

143 follow the money  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:53:07am

Why are we suprised by any of this. I have no doubt that right now there are plenty members of the RoP here in the US, sitting around yappin about how they long for the bombs to go off here and how their only allegiance is to allah.

But there are certianly some moderate muslims out there...maybe a handfull or two.

Ironically, when I was living in France and surrounded by open anti-semitism, the typical French excuse for it was that Jews only had allegiance to Israel and not to France although I never saw any evidence of this from the Jewish community.

144 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:55:33am

#132 NY Nana

Stories like that give us hope for the future and we need that now more than ever.

It also disproves Bigel's accusations of instutional anti-semitism in the UK.

145 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 8:57:05am
146 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:01:26am
147 RC neo-Jew  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:03:19am

Anti-Semitism is 'infecting' British politics, MPs warn

MPs have warned that the "virus" of anti-Semitism is beginning to infect mainstream politics in Britain, as figures show a record number of attacks on Jews last year...

...Mr Purnell said memories of the Holocaust had largely inoculated Europe against anti-Semitism for 60 years, but some people on the extreme left had allowed themselves to find "some extremely strange bedfellows" in their criticism of Israel. "During the anti-war protests there were some really terrifying pictures of individuals dressed up as suicide bombers holding banners with the Star of David and an equals sign to a swastika," he said. "This apparent embrace of such symbols by the anti-war left is absolutely astounding."

This article is published by thr Independent, ever so innocently,as though the increase in antisemitism has nothing to do with them.

I wonder if they realised that this:

In a debate in the House of Commons, James Purnell, chairman of Labour Friends of Israel, criticised caricatures and cartoons of Jews in the media as dangerous.

was about the cartoon in their very own newspaper?

148 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:05:24am

#142 Jean

We have to remember that even 100,000 people protesting in Trafalgar Sq are a very loud minority against the massive silent majority.

My wife works in London and is always caught up in the protests of the moment. All the London office workers look at these LLL protesters (and their ROP mates) with their stupid pink tanks and pathetic signs and think to themsleves 'get a f*cking job, you twat!'.

These loudmouthed moonbats do NOT represent the millions of ordinary folk in Britain who don't feel the need to indulge in 'street theatre' to get their point across.

I don't actually know anyone in either my personal or professional life that would attend one.

149 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:05:36am

#142 Jean

You wouldn't see something like that in the US.

Damn Straight. We have guns. And I've always regretted the fucks didn't try it.

Which speaks to my earlier post - they're swaggering twits.

150 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:06:00am
151 BruxellesBlog  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:09:27am

Jeeze, Bigel, have a cookie or something and relax, will ya? I don't get why you are so anti the Economist. You may be surprised that in last issue of the Economist, they came out rather on the side of George Bush and Sharon on the new US position regarding resolution 242.

"Believe me," adds Musa, "behind closed doors, there are no moderate Muslims."

Acording to a Guardian poll, also quoted in the Economist, 13% of the UK's muslims support terrorism against the United States. Now, assuming LLL Al-Guardian math, that number should probably be closer to 20%.

At current immigration estimates, there are apx 1.9 million Muslims in the UK. Once again, using retarded LLL Al-Guardian math, that number should probably be closer to 3 million. Also, I'm not sure wether or not that would inlcude good ol' home grown scum like the jerks quoted above who carry British passports.

That makes apx. 600,000 nutjob Jihadis, give or take a few thousand nutjob Jihadis, living nicely on the dole eating fast food in the UK....

Yep, I'm sure the Labor Party will be taking care of this right away, sure they will...It is also nice to see government dollars being put to such good use on the dole for these moral pillars.

152 Sta-Puft  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:10:15am

OT: Letter From the Front.

Good read.

153 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:11:39am
154 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:11:53am
“When I watched those planes go into the Twin Towers, I felt elated,”

"Did you see the yuppies flying out the windows of the trade center?" laughed a young man outside a mosque in North London. "That was so funny."

...ululululululu...

155 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:16:23am

Bigel,

In Europe, that would be a fairly accurate accusation, based on what I've seen the last 3-4 years.

In EUROPE, I would agree with you.

First, Jews were actively exterminated just 60 years ago, and the efforts to finish the job continue today among almost 2 billion people. Slavery is long finished, or at least in the West. The attempt to wipe every last Jew on earth is actually gaining momentum.

I agree again, but doesn't mean that every society other than your own is about to march Jews to gas chambers. The knee jerk reactions that you display in your posts, in my opinion, are as dangerous as not registering the problem at all.

It IS just about everywhere today,

Oh really? Well, I've never ever been called a filthy Jew in the street or anywhere else in Britain. EVERYWHERE was Krystalnacht! I'm not persecuted for being Jewish where I am and neither are you. Yes there are those hostile to us in our countries and in the World, but Krystalnacht and being marched to the gas chamber this ain't!

you moron.

Call me a moron and I'll call you a fucking wanker. I wasn't rude to you, but if you want to be rude about it, I'll give you fucking rude.

156 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:18:29am

Let's hope that these particular clowns are just boasting, trying to creep out their interviewer.

But still, "tiny minority of extremists", as the disclaimer goes... A tiny minority with a WMD counterbalances however many may be in the peaceful majority.

157 Homer Pile  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:21:29am

Multi-Culti Brittain had it coming. How many of tolerant, PC Brits will get angry at those mo-slimes and, at the same time, support unlimited immigration from Islamic shitholes of Pakistan, Egypt, etc.

On another hand. How many people on this very board would fulminate about those assholes and then turn around and support unlimited immigration? Even from Mo-slimes countries or corrupt stink holes like Mexico where everything can be bought for $200?

158 Mar  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:23:31am

I saw an excellent britsh movie several years ago called My Son the Fanatic. It was about a Pakistani imigrant to the UK whose UK born son becomes a religious fanatic.

Great movie and very accurate.

159 Jean  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:24:04am

#148 JWarrior


We have to remember that even 100,000 people protesting in Trafalgar Sq are a very loud minority against the massive silent majority.

I think you're missing the point. Part of what indicates the state of a culture is what the fringe elements feel comfortable doing. If that same display that I saw in Trafalgar Square took place in Times Square, it wouldn't be allowed to stand. I don't think it's a good sign that Londoners allow this.

160 John B  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:24:29am

This says a lot about their mindset:

"At the same time," continues Sayful, "wars were happening in Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Afghanistan. People were being oppressed simply because they were Muslim. Although I had never experienced racism in the UK, it opened the eyes of a lot of Muslims, including mine."


Never experienced discrimination in the U.K. but we will destroy it any way because - well you know - they're kufirs afterall.

161 Mar  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:25:55am

Homer Pile

I smell a troll.

162 Mar  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:27:32am

Jean

I don't know what planet you are on but they do protest loud and proud in the US too.

There have even been pictures posted on LGF of their protests.

163 qüark2 ♥ johnson  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:27:43am

@61 Poitiers-Lepanto

"I love your position !!!
The head under the sand and your big ass out naked in the wind."

LMAO!

164 RC neo-Jew  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:28:46am

#146 bigel

Hi bigel! It would take a lot to drag me away from this country.

According to the 2001 census, Muslims make up 2.7% of the population(1.5M people at the time).

The remaining 97.3% of the population are not about to be reduced to dhimmitude, whatever the hopes of these people.

165 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:30:40am

From here, a while back:

"If you prostrate yourself to an all-powerful and unfathomable being five times a day, if you are constantly told that you live in the world of Satan, if those around you are ignorant of and impervious to
literature, art, historical debate, and all that nurtures the values of Western civilization, your mind becomes susceptible to fanaticism. Your mind rots."
-- Farrukh Dhondy, "Our Islamic Fifth Column",

166 Kosher Cobra  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:33:26am

From the Sun article in #14:
"Sayful proudly boasts that his dream is for the world to become a vast Islamic state."

Well, that's the rub ain't it? Of course, if these idiots' dream is to die and ours is to live than what is all the commotion about? Just let the US/Israel do their job and kill them before they kill us. It would be nice if the Brits wholeheartedly joined the effort, but remember they laughed at Churchill, too.

167 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:36:54am
168 kamala  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:37:06am

Why do our lefty tro^H^H^Hfriends always seem to stay quiet with respect to articles like this?

Let me try to make up for the deafening silence:

"Come on, it just shows what happens when the Muslim world is filled with poverty and desperation."

"This is what you get when Sharon kills Hamas leaders."

"It's just a handful of extremists."

"These are just some harmless poser youngsters expressing their right of free speech."

"Oh, yeah, right, when Muslims speak of peace you say they're lying but *now* you think they're telling the truth."

"You're witnessing first hand the effects of George Bush's policies."

Gordon, are you there? Did I forget a few?

Jokes aside, how can any sane liberal support (or support reasoning with) a movement that advocates views of "worldwide domination of Islam" via Jihad?

169 Short Fat Corporal  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:43:38am

sick, sick, sick...

I am sick of hearing these shitheads espouse open war upon my civilization...

I am sick of evading, quibbling excuses put up for them by the 5th column of socialists in my own society, who backstab our soldiers at every turn, and claim they are being patriotic to do so...

I am sick of children being murdered by these same shitheads...

I am sick of allowing myself to be so enraged I would even contemplate simply nerve gassing most Islamic population centers, and being done with it...

I am sick of hoping that the traitors within my society would actually have the balls to start a rebellion, so that they could be dealt with as they should be, and that I would have a hand in this; even though I know this would drastically change the character of our democracy...

I am sick of wondering how so many people in my country can be so blind, and how the media is allowed to intentionally blind them...

I am sick of being ineffectual, for the most part, in persuading colleagues and family to OPEN their eyes...

Then I have to remind myself to suck it up.
I have to force myself to remember to grind it out, to do everything that it is within my power to do.
To continue to use legal methods, and keep an eye on what might be required in the future.
To remind myself that sometimes, the best option in dealing with both enemies of Islam, and enemies of Marx, will NOT be undertaken by my leaders, but to trust them to fight at the least.
To understand that mass murder on my country's part will not idealogically defeat Islam.
To support a President that has done more in the last three years then Presidents have done in the last thirty years.
To not forget that my enemy is Islam, but not all Muslims.
To remember that children are Muslims too.
To identify, and work for the accurate and precise elimination of those that would destroy me.

Thanks Charles, for providing both a font of information, and a place where I can rant, and hear the lamentations of those few of us that understand.

Thanks to all you posters that keep up the good fight.

170 BruxellesBlog  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:46:17am

In a not totally unrelated direction...

“Pass the brown sauce, brother,”

I see a potentially iconic LGF phrase here, something along the lines of "who blew up da owl", and "don't trust the shover robot".

171 kamala  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:49:36am

#170 BruxellesBlog

Excellent. That's what I said to the guy sitting in the bathroom stall next to mine this morning.

172 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:51:28am

#159 Jean

No, you're missing the point. Just because the fringe protests doesn't mean that the average londoner is happy about it or condones it.

100,000 protesters, but 5,000,000 Londoners who just got on with their lives that day (as much as the damn protesters would allow!).

If that same display that I saw in Trafalgar Square took place in Times Square

I thought your country was built on the freedom of speech? Ours is! I know the Islamists bash us over the head with our own freedom of speech laws, but as long as they aren't hurting people, they have freedom of speech. Just as you and I have freedom of speech to condemn them. That's democracy for ya!

BUT If they start bombing here, then the mood will become very dark towards British Muslims.

173 S.A. Smith  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:51:52am

Maybe if the English social welfare system gives this guy more benefits he'll be nice. Actually, he may be the first honest muslim I've ever encountered, particularly the comment about the difference between what so-called moderate muslims say publicly and what they say privately.

Didn't see this piece in the Guardian or Independent. Go figure.

174 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:52:26am

Ok, DC Law hasn't replied to my question on Jack Straw. Can anyone here tell me what Straw said that DC Law characterized as wishing Israel would disappear?

175 FabioC.  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:54:43am

Jeez, I live in London... people are very careful around here about suspect packages etc, but that's not enough, sadly.

Speaking of policies: while Abu "Hook" Hamza will even get legal aid, my Chinese girlfriend, a post-doc researcher, aked for a visa extension of 6 months and only got 3...

176 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:56:00am

#170 BruxellesBlog


In a not totally unrelated direction...


“Pass the brown sauce, brother,”

I see a potentially iconic LGF phrase here, something along the lines of "who blew up da owl", and "don't trust the shover robot".


LOL, I second that!

177 Sheriff Will Kane  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:58:54am

#169

I am sick of hoping that the traitors within my society would actually have the balls to start a rebellion, so that they could be dealt with as they should be, and that I would have a hand in this; even though I know this would drastically change the character of our democracy...

Speaking of America's fifth column.

178 BruxellesBlog  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 9:59:39am
AND FOR THE 400,00TH TIME -- THE UK IS IN EUROPE!

Until the referendum, of course.

#171   kamala

Let's keep your low fibre Atkins diet out of this, shall we?

179 Homer Pile  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:16:00am

#161 Mar

Does it mean you cannot deal with the message and reduced to attacking the messenger?

180 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:20:19am

#173 S.A. Smith

Maybe if the English social welfare system gives this guy more benefits he'll be nice.

That's the crunch. Cut the benefits! Typical fucking socialists, rewarding the people in our society who can't be bothered to get off their arses and get a job.

If these guys were forced either to work or starve, they wouldn't have time to preach their rubbish.

if you are fit and able, it's not hard to earn money in Britain. It's what this country is about.

181 Jea  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:20:37am

#172 JWarrior

Just as you and I have freedom of speech to condemn them.


Right. Here's what I think would happen if they tried that in Times Square: New Yorkers would be enraged. They'd be shouting back at them and soon a ring of counter protesters would emerge. Politicians would sense an opportunity and denounce the protesters. Reporters would want to know what Mosque they are from, could they get a quote for the record, etc. Soon the higher ups of their organizations would be telling them to shut up and go home because they'd realize the culture will not tolerate that type of display .... yet.

182 GoatGuy  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:21:11am

center
underline
heading 1

/p p


STRIKE


Sorry... just had to try that out

183 Kosher Cobra  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:22:05am

I have to say that I agree with Bigel a helluva lot more than I disagree. Anti-semitism is on the rise and world hardly notices.

JWarrior - you're heart is in the right place but how can you say that Britain is not in trouble? I've been on numerous occasions - most recently last October. Does America have socialists and right-wing nuts? Of course, but not nearly to the same degree. Bigel may be paranoid about this - indeed, so may I - but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that someone isn't actually out to kill you. (got that?)

My question: Are the Tories better than a Blair-led Labour party in the fight against terror? I wonder if all this stir for a Tory victory might end up in dethroning Blair just in time to have a more liberal-minded Labour party win. That would be the worst possible outcome, no?

184 Model4  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:22:50am

#168 kamala: Did you miss it? Gordon just decided without rationale or evidence to declare the article a forgery and cut his losses. Surreal.

185 Model4  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:28:28am

#182 GoatGuy: You can do that in the preview window without posting it if you like.

186 kamala  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:30:21am

#184

Holy sh*t I did miss it. Damn his answer is better than anything I could come up with!
I'll need to remember that answer.

187 jimmytheclaw  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:34:15am

#21 Clark Golem Kent 4/21/2004 08:25AM PST

hmmm... is that like grabbing your double barreled shotgun while whistling eddie money's two tickets to paradice

188 zulubaby  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:35:22am

JWarrior, you make it sound like there is no anti-Semitism in England and I have to say that was not my experience at all. In fact, the first time I ever experienced anti-Semitism was in London, and that was before 9/11. If you've lived there your whole life I'm not sure you'll understand what I mean. I hope that doesn't sound patronizing because that's not my intention at all! It's just that you become desensitized to certain things and if you've grown up with it, you probably wouldn't notice unless it was overt.

189 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:40:26am

#131 D.C. Law


JWarrior - Oh come on. Cartoons of Sharon eating babies wins a national award? Jack Straw all but calling for Israel to disappear? An intellectual/leadership class that celebrates the fact that it is again possible to express disdain and hate for Jews in polite company? A UN record that is on the south side of abysmal?

Not to say there aren't Brits who stand by Jews and Israel, but honestly, who are you kidding?


I don't what UN record you are refering to, but the Chumpsky-like 'intellectual' class exists in both the US and UK and are no more represenatitive of public opinion here than they are over there.

Jack Straw is a representatice of a leftist socialist political party. He's never going to come out and say Israel has every right to defend itself by any means necessary. It's not the leftist way. Maybe that makes him a chicken shit, but I don't think that makes him an anti-semite.

You mentioned everybody you could think of except the most important person. The man on the street! Who just wants to earn money, live his life and look after his family.

190 RC neo-Jew  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:40:40am

#142 Jean

A pity you missed the Israel Rally in Trafalgar Square in 2002. There was a scary counter-demonstration of raging, screaming pro-palestinians, but the police did a great job protecting us from them - I saw some of them very efficiently tackle and bring to the ground an enraged Arab who made a dash towards us.

Another picture. Maybe you were there, JWarrior?

191 Good Grief  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:43:11am

#183

I have to say that I agree with Bigel a helluva lot more than I disagree.

Do you agree that 300 million Europeans should be nuked off the planet because they are ALL "Jew-killing Nazi pieces of shit", an opinion bigel has made clear "400,000 TIMES"?

192 Sheriff Will Kane  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:44:41am
Jack Straw is a representatice of a leftist socialist political party. He's never going to come out and say Israel has every right to defend itself by any means necessary. It's not the leftist way. Maybe that makes him a chicken shit, but I don't think that makes him an anti-semite.

Well that's a relief.

Don't forget he also represents, because of his position in government as a public servant, the British people.

193 Motti  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:45:13am

JWarrior

My wife is English , so we visit her family frequently in Northern England.

We were last there at he end of Feb. beginning of March.

There was a stink about a Labour politician calling a Jewish Tory politician ( IIRC , the Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer) a "Fagin". Perhaps you could provide the full details to the thread. More to the point--what was the final result of this and how does it fit in with your description British anti-Semitism or lack thereof?


To all the Brits on the thread:

My brother-in-law is a local politician in a large city in Northern England. When I asked him about preventing further immigration from Muslim countries he said it wouldn't help because of the ones who are already legally there and their astronomical birthrates. He felt that there were several towns that would soon be dominated by large Muslim minorities who in the not too distant future would become majorities in those towns.

He also mentioned that in the local elections there were many people in the wealthiest section of town who cast write-in votes for the British National Front.

My questions to you--

1. Do you know how many new immigrants are still coming to Britain from Muslim countries?

2. Is there any movement afoot to end or seriously limit such immigration?

3. What percentage of Muslim immigrants already have British citizenship?

4. What possibilites exist for revoking citizenship of those immigrants that profess Islamo-fascist views and then deporting them?

5. What possibilies exist for denying citizenship to immigrants that do not yet have said citizenship and booting their asses out of Britain?

6. Most important question How do most non-Muslim Brits feel about Muslims? Are they scared? worried? hostile? Is it just a small minority that feel that Islam and Muslims are a threat? I just spoke to a friend who lives in London who says she will no longer take the underground for fear of a terrorist bombing. Is that a widespread feeling?

194 Oktober  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:50:53am

Call me crazy, but I hope the jihadis come to America. I just bought an AK-47 and am looking for some target practice.

195 NTropy  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:52:07am
“Yes,” he replies, unequivocally. "When a bomb attack happens here, I won’t be against it, even if it kills my own children. Islam is clear: Muslims living in lands that are occupied have the right to attack their invaders.

So Great Britain is now considered to be Muslim land being occupied? More of what's mine is mine, what's yours is mine.

196 Emperor Norton  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:58:26am

#195 Ntropy,

At first glance I assumed they referred to Iraq, but upon further review, I'd say you're right: England is now Dar-ul-Islam...

197 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:59:21am

#183 Kosher Cobra

can you say that Britain is not in trouble?

I'm not denying that Britain is in trouble, but your country is in trouble too. You face the same things we do. The whole Western world and every non-islamic country faces them same internal, external pressures from the current situation.

Remember that Britain backed America in Iraq and Afghanistan with a socialist government. As much as I hate socialists, I'm proud that Blair stood by the US. Something you won't be seeing from the Spanish socialists.

New Labour ws sold to the British people because it wasn't old Labour which everyone knew didn't work. That's why they had to reinvent it. And that's what they did, with their new, good-looking, always smiling, charasmatic frontman and a load of policies that looked like they had been stolen from the last Tory conference.
After many years of Maggie, the Tories got slack and thought they'd never lose power. Major had no charisma so no wonder he lost to Blair. TBH the Tories deserved to lose at the time.

However, Britain sure as hell never signed up to Old Labour and any leader other than Blair we will be back to Old Labour. Gordon Brown would be up next I believe and he is a dour, fat accountant.

As for the WOT, the Tories were always in complete agreement with the invasion of Iraq and I believe might even seek a greater role than we all ready have. (which I believe we should do).

198 Mar  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:00:13am

Homer Pile,

the problem is there are those who liken LGF to a hate site and when you call Muslims Mu-slimes you are only giving them ammo.

Why is it when there are some lunatic's in any country but the US, there is a knee jerk reaction that the whole country is crap, as well as its citizens and deserves nothing but contempt and ridicule?

You don't hear us non-American's attacking you guys about Moore, Chompsky, the DU or Indy-Media.

199 Colt  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:05:08am

#193 Motti

I can only answer 2/6:

4. What possibilites exist for revoking citizenship of those immigrants that profess Islamo-fascist views and then deporting them?

Very difficult. The Home Office has been pushing to get rid of Abu Hamza since 9/11. They haven't managed it yet, and will be providing him with money for a legal defence. Our hands are further tied by the European human rights declaration, whereby we cannot send a person back to a country where he might be persecuted. Hamza is an Egyptian, and he claims he is at risk.

6. Most important question How do most non-Muslim Brits feel about Muslims? Are they scared? worried? hostile? Is it just a small minority that feel that Islam and Muslims are a threat? I just spoke to a friend who lives in London who says she will no longer take the underground for fear of a terrorist bombing. Is that a widespread feeling?

As best I can tell, there is an increasingly negative attitude to Islam. My local train station was shut down today after someone left a package in the toilets. 100m perimeter, full evacuation, the works. False alarm, thankfully, but it might shake a few people in to thinking differently. OTOH, they might see it as evidence that the WoT is a waste of time.

200 crusade now  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:05:14am

I lived in Britain for 4 years and its is a sick decaying society. It needs to expel all muslims and quick - they are the reason for this decay- they are blood suckers that do nothing. I know we had them next door - their culture doesn´t fit in with everyone elses - they have 4 families in the same house and thus can pool money and buy more properties - theysubsist n]in the cash economy and collect all the welfare -they don´t play by the same rules.

I was going to KILL Hamza or Bakri if I wasn´t given my work permit.

201 jimmytheclaw  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:09:18am

bigel
you are starting to sound like seinfelds uncle who see's anti-semites everywhere and before you jump on me ive been treated like chicken little before 9/11 when i seen a terror attack in israel and said one day that will happen here but relax a little ive noticed a trend in the media they are slowly coming around to understanding who and what the enemy is unfortunately it will take another 9/11 to wake up the american street even a lot of liberals are seeing the truth and when we wake up there will be hell to pay [some will blame the next attack on iraq] most wont read bush's speech again the perpetrators are not members of a great religion but facists like weve seen before politically he cant blame the ROP yet

202 Colt  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:09:34am

#200 crusade now

they are the reason for this decay

No, it's the moral inversion brought about by multiculturalism. It means most Brits will tolerate this shit.

203 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:09:35am

#188 zulubaby

JWarrior, you make it sound like there is no anti-Semitism in England

That's not what I'm saying at all. Unfortunately, there is anti-semitism in every country in the world. We all have our bigots to deal with.

It's just that you become desensitized to certain things and if you've grown up with it, you probably wouldn't notice unless it was overt.

ZB, I am a Jew with more Christian friends than Jewish friends. My non-Jewish friends often enquire about Judaism and about Israel. In fact one of catholic friends relates to the nature of Judaism more than he does to Catholicism.

I do know what you are trying to say, but I have never had to live my life in any kind of fear or oppression. I meet many people both socially and through business and have only ever met people that were accepting of my religion whether they were white, brown, black, Christian or even Muslim.

204 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:09:45am

#198 Mar

You don't hear us non-American's attacking you guys about Moore, Chompsky, the DU or Indy-Media.

Yeah, I don't get it either. I see two things at work though, the first being the media, obviously. MAYBE the media in the UK and Europe is more varied than what we see on this side of the pond, but if it is the fact remains we DON'T see it and maybe we need to do a better job of finding other, balancing, voices.

The second item is that unless you have actually spent time in the U.S., most Europeans have NO CLUE about just how large and varied this place is. I remember reading - and I think it was here on LGF - about an American talking to some guys in Germany planning a trip to the U.S. They were going to drive from Florida to L.A. There were going to be here about a week. The American saw them after their trip and asked about it. They could not believe that after an entire day of driving they still were in Florida. Never made it to LA.
My point (I have one) is that the Chomsky's, et.al., don't have the playing fields all to themselves here, as it APPEARS they do over there.

Just a thought.

205 BruxellesBlog  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:10:37am

#194   Oktober

Troll bait?

206 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:11:52am
I was going to KILL Hamza or Bakri if I wasn´t given my work permit.

Why let the work permit stop you?

207 TCF  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:12:04am

It's said that in the southern US, "He needed killin'" was considered valid defense. Islamic fascists like these simply need killin'.

208 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:12:50am

201 jimmytheclaw

Punc.shu.A.shun

Dude.

209 WriterMom  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:13:01am

#170 I totally agree. It's too funny.

But, if we're adding already-I would add:

"Let's go debrief at Starbucks." That was classic from the St. Pancake protest.

210 Sheriff Will Kane  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:13:10am

#198

the problem is there are those who liken LGF to a hate site and when you call Muslims Mu-slimes you are only giving them ammo

OMG. Is it really important that we care about "those" people and their opinion? They say before America liberated Iraq we were well liked and admired. Look what that got us: 3000 dead on September 11, 2001.

Why is it when there are some lunatic's in any country but the US, there is a knee jerk reaction that the whole country is crap, as well as its citizens and deserves nothing but contempt and ridicule?

Gee I don't know? Maybe when Canadian government officials call our President an idiot, cowboy (a compliment for sure), or that "they can't stand Americans" the deafening silence from that country's own populace to contradict makes us Americans want to engage in our right to free speech.

You don't hear us non-American's attacking you guys about Moore, Chompsky, the DU or Indy-Media

Why don't you? Nobody will defend them here on this site. Although they seem to be greatly admired up north.

211 Defense Guy  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:13:32am

During the 60's, the FBI used to infiltrate the radical groups. I bet they still do, some of the photos of the war protesters here in America get me wondering (cop?). I hope things are the same in Britian.

212 S.A. Smith  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:14:49am

JWarrior

I think people should be protected from falling through the cracks (within reason). But these guys should be shoved down into the cracks, some pig grease poured in, and the cracks cemented over. And I do mean that quite literally. Use them to fill your potholes.

I'm an anglophile. So I have to ask: Did We defeat the Nazis only to be vanquished by the likes of these ignorant animals? We need to recall that Churchillian spirit to remind us of just who we are and then just maybe we can deal this matter with a manner commensurate to the threat.

213 crusade now  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:14:55am

The muslim population wuld easily be 3-4 million -no problem. I was amazed at the number of Albanians egyptians etc that we had every week coming through the place next door - all reffos - some psychos - I remember some 15 year old egyptian kid that would go off the deep end and the cops would have to come around - of course given that we were Australians he didn´t dare do anything when we bluntly told him to stick to his SIDE OF THE FUCKING FENCE - Amazing these little muslims shut the fuck up when you show you are prepared to use violence. And you regularly scream FUCKING MUSLIMS when there is some annoyance on TV. This was all because the house was run by some muslim charity for muslims.....

Motti #193 - the only movement is the BNP - everyone else is to scared to limit their immigration - they have real power -expect to see more race riots in the future.....I would say the vast majority of new immigrants are muslim. The rest are transitory people like Brazilians Australians etc -none of us intend to stay there BUT the muslims LIVE there.

214 Promethea  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:15:10am

#78 Avon . . .

I've often thought that this will ultimately be the answer. With all the flack about the loss of civil liberties in the U.S., we actually haven't seen much loss--possibly the same number that would occur in an imperfect world even without 9/11.

But if the lawyers get Guantanamo shut down, then I believe we will start to see some real losses of civil liberties.

No society can just sit around and let itself be destroyed. LLLs can't stand to think about this, so they are like the boy who cried wolf. Yet, if we don't destroy Islamofascism now, we'll have to revert to barbarism to destroy it. Secret camps or death squads will, of course, be part of the picture.

Just my opinion.

215 jimmytheclaw  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:18:15am

#142 Jean 4/21/2004 10:52AM PST

you do see that in the us they are called peace marches but look at whats coming out in the news lately more and more exposure of 5th collumnists even on cnn like i said we are slowly waking up

216 Sta-Puft  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:18:24am

#194

Crazy.

217 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:21:07am

#193 Motti


ARRGGHH!!

For the last time!!!


I AM NOT SAYING THAT THERE AREN'T ANY ANTI-SEMITES IN THE UK.

I AM SAYING THAT THE UK IS NOT INHERRENTLY ANTI SEMITIC!

There is a difference!

Every society has anti-semites, but my family has yet to rounding up and put on a fucking cattle truck to be gassed!

OK!?!!

218 Crusade Now  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:21:17am

Yeah I wonder if these fuckers realize there is a western street......The more I think about my escapades in London with muslims......

For all you confused Americans - these allahbots are not claiming that England is occupied but that England occupies Iraq etc. The thing is I consider their taxpaying ways/leeching helping in occupying Cornwall and thus I can sanction their liquidation if Cornish freedom fighter seeks to target them for legitimate resistance. Also Jihad is obligatory upon all muslims therefore they are all legitimate targets. There is no such thing as an innocent Muslim. I should know I met plenty of them and had interesting conversations regarding their occupation hypocrisy and Israel.

219 Rayra Johnson  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:22:12am
But it was the events of 11 September that crystallised Sayful's worldview. "When I watched those planes go into the Twin Towers, I felt elated," he says. "That magnificent action split the world into two camps: you were either with Islam and al Qaeda, or with the enemy. I decided to quit my job and commit myself full-time to al-Muhajiroun." Now he does not consider himself British. "I am a Muslim living in Britain, and I give my allegiance only to Allah."

Why is he NOT imprisoned / DEAD??


#92 Model4 4/21/2004 09:36AM PST
#83 grayp: Remember that guy in high school that just transfered in, whose slang was a year or two outdated, and was asking any and everyone about scoring drugs in the most blatant terms?

You mean the Narcs? So you think this guy is a plant, or getting newspaper cooperation in establishing his 'street cred'? hmm/bah.


#157 Homer Pile 4/21/2004 11:21AM PST
On another hand. How many people on this very board would fulminate about those assholes and then turn around and support unlimited immigration?

Damned few. What makes you think otherwise?

#179 Homer Pile 4/21/2004 12:16PM PST
#161 Mar

Does it mean you cannot deal with the message and reduced to attacking the messenger?

No. It means that like most trolls, you've wildly misrepresented the LGF zeitgeist.

220 Crusade Now  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:24:44am

*206 Jwarrior -I was making too much money and sending money to Cornish Freedom fighters - I kid you not..........Also I posted here and elsewhere this threat in the hope that MI5 would read it and exercise their influence - Hamza et al would have been famous as it would have brought the Cornish question to the international media in a sensational way - believe me I would have carried out that threat......

Who are you English to make laws for me on whether I can immigrate to this island or not? Killing Hamza as an occupier would have been the best thing. Who today remembers Copeland who bombed Birck Lane????

221 Mark Holland  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:30:20am
Cornish Freedom fighters

Oh not this crap again...

222 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:34:31am

#212 S.A. Smith

I agree with you 110% and I ask myself everyday what Churchill would make of our current global and domestic situation.

I don't know what he would say about it, but I do know how he would act.

223 zulubaby  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:38:39am

JWarrior, of course there are bigots everywhere but I was talking specifically about anti-Semitism and there is definitely an undercurrent of polite, and sometimes not so polite, anti-Semitism there, unlike anything I've experienced in either South Africa or the US. I have mentioned this in the past -- my nephew was living in England and was so distressed by the anti-Semitism there that my brother and sister-in-law hauled him out of there and sent him to Israel instead. It's present there, it's palpable. Anyway, I understand that you're getting aggravated so we can drop this. I'd probably be getting aggravated too.

224 WriterMom  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:40:51am

Guess what Allah is reporting?

BBC Renting Apartment for Vannunu!!!

The original article is from Globes in Hebrew. I'm going to take a peek at it and translate...Back soon.

225 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:46:12am

#220 Crusade Now

I've heard the same claims from Welsh folk.

Face it, you're all well and truely occupied by the capitalist English pigs and you love it!!!

226 WriterMom  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:47:19am

Well, there is definitely an article about Vanunu here. but it's for subscribers.

However, the headline says: "I was treated barbarically by the Mosad and the Shabak. Israel is a dictatorship, an apartheid state." and there is a picture of the little weasel.

227 RC neo-Jew  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 11:50:38am

#220 Crusade Now

It used to be thought that when the Anglo Saxons invaded England they pushed the Celtic inhabitants to the edges of the country - Wales and Cornwall - and replaced them.

Genetic research has proved that this idea is wrong:
Anglo-Saxons' genetic stamp weaker than historians suspected

A new survey of Y chromosomes in the British Isles suggests that the Anglo-Saxons failed to leave as much of a genetic stamp on the UK as history books imply.

But the Y chromosomes of the regions tell a different story. "The Celts weren't pushed to the fringes of Scotland and Wales; a lot of them remained in England and central Ireland," says study team member David Goldstein, of University College London.

It seems that the Welsh and Irish (and maybe the Cornish?) are more 'European' than the rest of us, though!

The Y chromosomes of men from Wales and Ireland resemble those of the Basques. Some believe that the Basques, from the border of France and Spain, are the original Europeans.

Basque, eh...?!

228 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 12:01:37pm

#223 zulubaby

Your posts couldn't aggrevate me, zb. They are too nicely worded!

That sounds like a very nasty experience for your nephew and naturally having gone through something like that I can understand that there will always be concern for you and your family.

As a Brit though and this is the only place I have lived all my life, I have never experienced true anti-semitism.

I went to a very good English CofE public school and sometimes got ribbed for being Jewish, but nothing malicious at all and either I laughed along or I gave as good as I got.

We live amongst many Jews here in North London and I would honestly say that very few of them have ever said to me that they have experienced anti-semitism.

I do security at synagogue and we do have a few incidents with people, but usually they are pissheads not BNP, NF, AQ or any other group.

229 Inside the Whale  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 12:05:36pm

The JP article (may have been posted):

"I hope to soon leave Israel," Vanunu said, despite the restrictions he is under. "I want to go to the United States to marry a wife and teach history. I am now going to the church to speak to my friends and to thank God. And later I will start my life." Vanunu converted to Christianity after he was fired from Dimona in 1985. He claimed that he was badly treated because he was not Jewish. "If I were Jewish this would never happen," he said.

Please, we don't want you here either. And we have a surfeit of "history" teachers like you. Another Howard Zinn we don't need. ("Marry a wife"? As opposed to a single woman?)

230 crusade now  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 12:25:10pm

Interesting #227 RC neo-Jew
he mentions central and eastern england - I presume the west is!!!! - Cornwall, Devon etc or the celtic Kingdom of Dumnonia


The Anglo-Saxons and Danes left their mark in central and eastern England, and mainland Scotland, the survey says, and the biological traces of Norwegian invaders show up in the northern British Isles, including Orkney.

Also who is in the south east - celts -that is the most english place imaginable!! I suggest they are a mixture of germans, normans and french.

There has been a study of Cornish genes and we are farmers from the middle east as opposed to common european genes - therefore we have been there since agriculture came to the UK- when would that be 4000-5000BC???

Like I said Cornwall is occupied and the fact that some mulims have the right to live there and I don´t is enough for me to take the ENglish law into my own hands

231 DP111 (DP)  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 12:31:03pm

Apparantly quite a number of poeple in Israel were there to cheer and support Vanunu. Also his adoptive parents from the US. And I suppose Rachel Corrie fans from the US as well.

YUP. LETS NUKE ISRAEL and the USA.

232 Moonbat_One  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 12:31:16pm

What is "brown sauce"? Barbeque sauce?

233 Mark Holland  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 12:35:08pm
234 RC neo-Jew  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 12:40:24pm

#230 crusade now

There has been a study of Cornish genes and we are farmers from the middle east as opposed to common european genes

Shhhh! Don't tell everyone! Or before you know it, the palestinians will be claiming that Cornwall has really been palestinian land from time immemorial and that it is under Marazionist occupayshun.

235 Mark Holland  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 12:43:41pm

Lol, Marazion is where you can find St Michael's Temple Mount.

236 little ramallah  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 12:45:58pm

RC 234 - LOL! Cornish freedom fighters? Most people down there would have trouble fighting a dead mackerel (well, they can be nasty)

237 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 12:50:20pm

#230 crusade now

Hey, don't get mad! I'll bring it up at the next ZOG meeting. We have the English of this country in our filthy Zionist pockets.

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

238 DP111 (DP)  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 12:54:10pm

J Warrior

There seem to be quite a few posters who would like nothing better then create dissension between the US and the UK. As our two nations are the only ones that are actually engaged in war against Islamofascists, from Afghanistan to Iraq, I have to question the motives of people who wish to create such dissension.

What I would like to know is, what exactly do they hope to get out of this? I can state that the US has been the most consistent and continuous supporter of militant Islam for the last 40 years at the least. In fact every conflict involving mulsims with others, the US has been on the side of the Muslims, probably because of its total and congenital servitude to Saudi Arabia. It turned a blind eye even to the genocide of Christains in Sudan. It wasnt keen to act in East Timor because of 'global concerns', and left it to Australia and Britain. In Bosnia and Kosovo, it drove away the Serbs from their ancestral lands. Even after 9/11, it continues to bankroll Pakistan, the foremost Jihad enabler and nuclear proliferator and is cosy with SA of the GLORIOUS 15.

The real tragedy of this habitual servitude is that even after 9/11, the US cannot bring itself to name SA and Pakistan as the two key state players of the Jihad.

But whatever the history, we are in this together, for better or worse.

239 Colt  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 1:11:14pm
There has been a study of Cornish genes and we are farmers from the middle east as opposed to common european genes - therefore we have been there since agriculture came to the UK- when would that be 4000-5000BC???

Huh? Your people were farmers, therefore they arrived at the beginning of agriculture?

240 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 1:21:18pm

#238 DP111 (DP)

Great post.

There seem to be quite a few posters who would like nothing better then create dissension between the US and the UK. As our two nations are the only ones that are actually engaged in war against Islamofascists, from Afghanistan to Iraq, I have to question the motives of people who wish to create such dissension.

I have asked myself that many times. I love LGF, I think this site is great. The only thing I don't like is that too many folks are metaphorically saying 'haha! You're in more shit than me. You haven't got a chance. I'm alright, Jack! Bye!' instead of realising these are problems we are all facing.

We will be stronger if we stand together in this. United we stand, divided we fall, as they say. If Britain does become the next Islamic state (as some on here would have us believe is imminent) that's a real, true and old ally gone for the US. A partner in the WOT and a believer in our societies' common values.

We are all facing the same dangers internally and externally. We maybe be at different parts of the sliding scale, but we are ALL on the scale.

The other thing that is often forgotten is that in the UK we are growing tired of our socialist screwing the country for the last seven years. Tony Blair is going to be history soon.

In the US, it seems to me that there are many people willing to do anything it takes to get Kerry (who seems like the ultimate raving loony socialist) into power.

This time next year, we could be sitting here typing on LGF discussing America's left wing government being too weak on the WOT and the British right wing Tory government offloading any Muslim that so much as farts out of place.

We need to bring constructive disussion to these issues otherwise nothing is going to change. Dismissing Britain and all Brits as lost does nothing to help the situation. Not all Brits are lost! Many Brit posts here on LGF because they recognise the danger and they care about what is happening to their country.

We need to be supportive of each other or we drive a wedge between us which diverts us away from the true problems that face us and gives more ground to a merciless enemy.

241 Crusade Now  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 1:22:31pm

Colt - Dunno but all I know is Hamza would have been a dead man and any witchdoctor science about genes ( I read some dumb article that greeks are descended from black people that immigrated there circa 10,000BC due to some content of their blood) wouldn´t have stopped the bullet or axe entering his brain - I had the means, motivation and insanity to carry it out.

242 Jeff S.  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 1:34:50pm

Let me tell you, NOTHING beats brown sauce on a bacon sandwich...even these pigs can appreciate that.

243 Jeff S.  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 1:37:08pm

(They can appreciate the brown sauce, not the bacon)

/bacon-eating Jew

244 Joshua Scholar  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 1:48:41pm

#55 Gordon 4/21/2004 08:48AM PST

Sorry LGF'ers, but I smell a Jayson Blair/Janet Cooke situation. If I were this guy's editor I'd want proof that he didn't make up these yo-yos.

I remember a fresh air interview with one brit who wrote a whole book about hanging around with these guys - before 9/11. Exactly the same story.

But you don't need second hand info - you can easily find out about these people from their own pens. So why don't you.

I gotta say: Jesus, Gordon, why don't you fucking go research rabid Wahabists yourself. It's not so fucking hard to find this info from their own pens.

But you come back here every month, having taken no effort to check things out for yourself, telling us that sky MUST be green and the sun must set in the east because you worked it out for yourself. No point in getting up from your easy chair and going outside to see yourself.

245 little ramallah  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 1:52:01pm

I've spent a lot of time on both sides of the pond and found anti-Semitism both here and there. But is was never of the pogrom variety. More stinky old social attitudes people inherited, without thinking. The old folks who snarled about "those Jews", along with "those black people" and "those Puerto Ricans" and so an ad nauseam. Their children and grandchildren have shed a lot of that baggage. Things have changed for the better.

As for the media and politics, obviously they are differences here in Blighty. Journos and pols are more anti-Israel, on the whole.

In many cases I really don't think this can be put down to anti-Semitism. The loons are predictably wrong on just about everything, including other bitter conflicts, and they are very vocal about it, even if the rest of the lunacy doesn't get much of an airing here.

There's a difference in tone too. I find mainstream American media amazingly tame on most subjects. There's often a reluctance to get to the point on any issue which might make someone, somewhere uncomfortable. Britain is more vicious. Skewering by pen is a national sport. If American scribes wrote like ours, I bet things would look rather more alarming over there.

Same goes for the demos. I laugh at the pathetic crap I've seen in London (Trafalgar Square research work / political masochism). I have no problem with it happening. This is the city of Speakers' Corner, which is another funny place. If crazy people want to rave, we'll indulge them for our own entertainmnet. And for freedom. I don't think that is any danger to us at all.

The real bastards are the ones who regularly pillory Israel and only Israel. Not to mention the bombers. They are frightening and need to be stopped. You have some of the same folks over there, don't you?

Let's hang together rather than get blown up separately.

246 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 1:54:21pm

JWarrior & Dp111

A question, and I don't mean to be offensive or provocative:

Shortly after 9/11, I read an op/ed piece by Charlotte Raven (Guardian, I think), titled "A bully with a Bloody Nose is Still a Bully".

She rolled around in that attack like my dog rolls around in fresh mulch, and to my mind, came out smelling even worse.

But I never read a repudiation of her remarks.

My question is about the anti-American dynamic in the UK - how much does it impact the population's evaluation of your foreign policy?

BTW, if I ever encounter that woman - no, never mind.

247 DP111 (DP)  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 1:56:37pm

240 J Warrior

United we stand, divided we fall, as they say.

Or put it another way, either we hang together or we'll hang separately.

What many posters do not realise is that Britain and the US have seen off all totalitarian threats of the past century. Even the communist threat was seen off by Reagan and Thatcher. One truism that is a solace to me, as we fight to retain the soul of Western civilisation is that, the UK and the US have never lost a global war when they are together. So why are these Americans so keen on destroying our alliance. Why do they post material likely to cause offence within the alliance. Its not in as if they dont have CAIR and other terror appeasing organs within the US. I can also engage in a bit of vituperation. Let me give it a try and I'll try to be truthful as well.

The greatest threat to Western civilsation and to non-Muslims socities comes from the supporters of Jihad. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and the USA. I will repeat, the USA has held aloft the banner of radical Islam for the last 30 years at the least. Most of the problems that we face now is a consequence of the idiotic and brain dead policy of the US. Either that or its craving for cheap oil at any cost.

Hang together or hang separately.

Despite our differences with France, France is doing a great job in attacking Isalm where it hurts most. The hijab ban, as I've been posting for a while, is not just about a bit of cloth but an attempt to break the control of the minds of young muslim girls. Break that and you set off a chain reaction in the heart Muslim society. That is why there is so much disquiet in Muslim communities throughout the West. Almost all Western commentators have missed its real significance. And now comes the deportation of an imam for simply stating what is in the koran. The French have expelled him and expicitly stated that such views will not be tolerated ie an open challenge to the koran.
I think the French are doing a great job for they have opened up another front in the war, which in fact is far more vital one then the one in Iraq. Iraq, in fact is dividing and polarising the West both within and without, and is thus helping the enemy.

248 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:02:58pm

Dp111

The greatest threat to Western civilsation and to non-Muslims socities comes from the supporters of Jihad. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and the USA. I will repeat, the USA has held aloft the banner of radical Islam for the last 30 years at the least. Most of the problems that we face now is a consequence of the idiotic and brain dead policy of the US. Either that or its craving for cheap oil at any cost.

Sorry, I don't consider this viterpuration, I consider it criticism that may or may not be correct. I disagree that the US has 'held aloft the banner of radical Islam', however. Brain dead policy, quite possibly, I'd have to give it more thought.

Nice try in the vituperation department, but no go.

249 DP111 (DP)  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:03:07pm

246 grayp

My question is about the anti-American dynamic in the UK - how much does it impact the population's evaluation of your foreign policy?

About the same as the anti-British views on this forum by LGFers being symptomtic of the American views at large.

Atleast we dont advocate the nuking of the USA, as some do on this forum to nuke Europe and the UK, cheered on by increasing numbers.

250 Promethea  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:04:48pm

JWarrior, DP 111, other Brits . . .

We need to be supportive of each other or we drive a wedge between us which diverts us away from the true problems that face us and gives more ground to a merciless enemy.

I always hate the stupid talk about countries based on one or two examples--very common on the web. Most people writing don't mean anything except joking around, but it can hurt.

I, for one, hate to be responsible for Jerry Lewis.

Anyway, we're all together in this. And there are lots of Anglophiles among us.

;)

251 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:08:56pm

DP111

Ach! bigel speaks only for himself, and you should know by now that he gets slapped down on a regular basis. I do appreciate his fear, though, and after having 'known' him for awhile, I read his posts not as advocationg nuking anyone, but only the shriek of warning that ultimately this is what it will take.

He truly is afraid.

The rest of us are just really pissed.

252 DP111 (DP)  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:10:38pm

248 grayp

Yes thats the trouble, I just cant be really nasty even if I try, for I know that America has its heart in the right place. Its just that it keeps feeling for its wallet most of the time.

But as Churchill once said," You can trust America to do the right thing.. after it has exhausted all other possibilities".

On the 'banner of Islam aloft', that was a deliberate exageration. But the reality is that the US has consistently supported Muslim causes over all others, when a clash between Muslims and non-Muslims occurred. The Taleban and Khomeini are creatures of shortsighted US 'statecraft', if you can call it that.

253 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:11:50pm

Oh, wait. In Britain, 'pissed' means drunk, right?

I meant it in the sense that we're angry.

But we're drunk too, if that's relevant (got nuthin' on the Aussies, tho')

254 Promethea  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:12:46pm

#249 DP 111 . . .

Still working my way slowing down the thread...

Atleast we dont advocate the nuking of the USA, as some do on this forum to nuke Europe and the UK, cheered on by increasing numbers.

I think I wrote you about this several months ago. Bigel is a loon who likes the attention he gets when he talks about nuking Europe. There is no way to shut him up except to get Charles to ban him. He does not represent the views of 99.999999% of anybody.

There is no point in letting him irritate you. He's just like a large horsefly buzzing around the room. I'm sure he'll flame me now, and it'll be your fault.

Anyway, please ignore. Don't destroy UK-US relations because of Bigel. Thanks.

255 NY Nana  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:15:32pm

#246 Grayp

Here is the bloody article. Please do not insult dogs! Saying that, bitch is a word that hardly begins to describe her. There are a number of other Guardian hateful links on the page.

A bully with a bloody nose is still a bully

Most people in the world had more than one response to what happened to the US last Tuesday. I think it is safe to say that apart from three or four Palestinians, everyone is sad to see so many of their fellow humans killed in such horrendous circumstances. That goes for most Muslims and the great majority of those who might have been quite pleased to see the US get a different kind of comeuppance. For this second group, in which I include myself, the unqualified sympathy extended to the victims is underpinned by a feeling that few have dared even to whisper. My next-door neighbour said it, and so did a rogue Palestinian whose views have not yet been censored in the name of "taste". They are better placed than I am, as a broadsheet commentator, to admit to a part of them that thinks that the US might benefit from an insight into what it feels like to be knocked to your knees by a faceless power deaf to everything but the logic of its own crazed agenda.
There's nothing shameful about this position. It is perfectly possible to condemn the terrorist action and dislike the US just as much as you did before the WTC went down. Many will have woken up on Wednesday with that combination of emotions. Some were more "ha" than sorrow, but most had the proportions right and none should be accused of inhumanity. If anti-Americanism has been seized, temporarily, by forces that have done dreadful things in its name, there is no reason for its adherents to retreat from its basic precepts. America is the same country it was before September 11. If you didn't like it then, there's no reason why you should have to pretend to now. All those who see its suffering as a kind of absolution should remember how little we've seen that would support this reading. A bully with a bloody nose is still a bully and, weeping apart, everything the US body politic has done in the week since the attacks has confirmed its essential character.

Given this, it is amazing that so many commentators should feel the need to stand shoulder to shoulder with a government that few used to support. Apparently, it is every American's duty to display their anti-terrorist credentials by refusing to criticise anything about its response to the crisis. For us British, the most pressing task is to reassure our friends across the pond that we don't support the demolition of their cities by ridding ourselves of any trace of anti-American sentiment. Apologising to the US ambassador for the "ill timed" Question Time in which one or two people suggested that America's slate was no cleaner than it had been the previous week, Greg Dyke shamed us all. The great thing about the media in this country is that they aren't often reduced to the univocal drone that expat friends complain of in the US. Those who have been there through this crisis have told me how much they miss Newsnight and how little respect they have for media that believe the whys and wherefores of this situation are somebody else's concern.

Like so many of the ideas America is going to war to defend, free speech is a nice thought that hasn't panned out in practice. The US may think of itself as a nation that nurtures debate but if that happens at all, it's only when there's nothing at stake. At this crucial moment in its history, it has eschewed the clamour of conflicting positions in favour of the voice it always returns to when its foundations are shaken. That voice is deeply dumb. Unable to engage with causality and contemptuous of attempts to do so, it explains what it sees in terms that bear no relation to reality.

When America speaks from its heart, it retreats into a language that none but its true-born citizens can begin to understand. At the root of this is an overwhelming need to control meaning. America can't let the world speak for itself. It was taken unawares last Tuesday and part of the trauma of that event was the shock of being forced to listen to a message that it hadn't had time to translate. The subsequent roar of anger was, amongst other things, the sound of the US struggling to regain the right to control its own narrative.

It did this by declaring war. By this means, Bush ensured that America only had to sit with the inexplicable for a couple of anxious days. After that, the sense, so unfamiliar to them, of not knowing what had happened or what it meant was replaced by the reassuring certainties of John Brown's body and calls for national unity. By turning what should have been a criminal manhunt into an all-out war, Bush was asserting his right to define America's reality. Instead of submitting to the reality, he created the situation he wanted, fashioning a plausible, beatable enemy that bore only a passing relation to the ragbag of loons in Bin Laden's camp. They weren't a worthy enemy of America, so rather than confront what this might mean, Bush has made one up. "International terrorism" has been talked up in the past week to the point where it almost looks like an ideology. Much as the US might want this to be the case, it isn't. Saying you're going to "eradicate" it is like pledging to defeat shooting.

Rather than run the risk of seeing what might happen if it listened to the rest of the world, America is going full square into a war that doesn't exist. It would rather have a virtual victory than submit to someone else's agenda. While understandable, this tendency is one of the reasons why some people still have issues with it.


256 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:17:17pm

DP111

The Taleban and Khomeini are creatures of shortsighted US 'statecraft', if you can call it that.

Well, much to my surprise, I recently read the reports that Carter did NOT support the Shah, he hung him out to dry - and when he had the chance to take out Khomeni, he said "You can't DO that to a Bishop".

Sometimes my instincts are good. I hated that man the nanosecond I laid eyes on him.

Although I don't know what we could have done with Afghanistan. I'm still not sure why the Soviets invaded, other than that their puppet gov't was challenged.

I mean, who on earth wants that shithole? How was it a threat to the USSR?

257 Promethea  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:17:38pm

#248 DP . . .

Yes thats the trouble, I just cant be really nasty even if I try, for I know that America has its heart in the right place. Its just that it keeps feeling for its wallet most of the time.

See, now that's the kind of banter that annoys me. How can anyone talk about "America" that way. How is "feeling for its wallet" different from the behavior of any other country, including nice Canada and chocolaty Belgium?

258 DP111 (DP)  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:21:43pm

251 grayp

I'm afraid that Bigel views are increasingly being accepted without question, if not actively affirmed.

Talking of brain dead policies.
Did you hear about the men who invested hundreds of billions of dollars and the lives of hundreds of their young men and women, to disprove the well known truism that Arab Islam and democracy do not mix. For the last year we have been lectured on the merits of concensual democracy in Iraq by the likes of VDH. I wonder what he is thinking now, when any dimwit could have told him the contrary. He still does not get it.

Promethia:

I cant thank enough. I've tried over the last 6 months to continually bring LGFers together. There are many French who would like to comment here but withold given the rabidly anti-French forum that this has become.

259 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:22:07pm

NY Nana

I would NEVER insult dogs - you can't possibly remember my posts about all the dogs in my life and think that.

On the contrary, unlike Ms Raven (appropo name, there, what?) my dog has the smarts to know not to roll around in shit.

"Bitch" is the appropriate term for our Molly. Charlotte Raven is a ****.

260 NY Nana  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:22:09pm

#251 Graype

Ach! bigel speaks only for himself, and you should know by now that he gets slapped down on a regular basis. I do appreciate his fear, though, and after having 'known' him for awhile, I read his posts not as advocationg nuking anyone, but only the shriek of warning that ultimately this is what it will take.

He truly is afraid.

And he is truly right. Would that there were brigades of Bigels, world-wide, in the 1930's, and before 9/11. Even after these events, people still don't want to get it. Bigel may come across as a bit OTT, but when you really look around us, he is spot on. Reality hurts.

He is a realist.

261 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:27:37pm

DP111 (DP) & any other Brits on this thread

We are trying to organise a Brit LGF get together in London towards the end of May or beginning of June.

There's been considerable interest already and if you would like to join us, I will put you on my LGF meet up mailing list and keep you posted with the arrangements.

Click my name above and send me an email if you are interested.


#250 Promethea

You and I have had this discussion before! Oh, I think you have a lot to answer for with regards David Hasselhoff too.

;)

262 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:33:30pm

#258 DP111

I'm afraid that Bigel views are increasingly being accepted without question, if not actively affirmed.

I know that people have posted that they are coming around to bigel's pessimism (or as NY Nana says 'reality'), but no one here advocates nuking anything just yet.

Well. Mecca. On our really bad days.

Did you hear about the men who invested hundreds of billions of dollars and the lives of hundreds of their young men and women, to disprove the well known truism that Arab Islam and democracy do not mix. For the last year we have been lectured on the merits of concensual democracy in Iraq by the likes of VDH. I wonder what he is thinking now, when any dimwit could have told him the contrary. He still does not get it.

Got an alternative?

There are many French who would like to comment here but withold given the rabidly anti-French forum that this has become.

O cry me a river. We've got Muslims, Palestinians, blah, blah, blah here. There is a reason people here don't like the French and it's a damn good one. Actually, there are lots of reasons and they're ALL damn good. If anyone from France wants to come here and post, they will be treated with the respect the post deserves.

If they don't have the balls to post and just want to make their presence known, just wave a white flag or something.

France is a secular country only to the extent that its religion is anti-Americanism. Come here and argue, but don't whine to me that you don't have the balls.

263 DP111 (DP)  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:33:56pm

256 grayp

Afghanistan was a threat to the USSR as it was the road via which radical Islam could spread to the Muslim republics of the USSR.

The Shah was not in the good books of America as Iran was a major player in OPEC and was responsible for increased oil prices. remember this was the time of the huge oil price hik after the Yom Kippur war. We are still working throught the aftereffects of that shock.

Anyway, the US thought that by unseating him and replacing him with Khomeini, they would have a grateful and compliant cleric. Wow, talk of naivette and stupidity. At the time, there were some Iranians who came to me and said that they were so glad that Shah was gone and they had Khomeini. My reply was that would soon rue the day and that Khomeini would take them back to the middle ages. And so it hs turned out to be.

264 little ramallah  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:38:09pm

260 NY Nana

He is a realist.

LOL! bigel thinks Britain is letting Muslims in to kill Jews. "It's all a plot!" He's nuts. He would fit right in at an al Muhajiroun meeting.

What use would bigel have been in the 30s or before 9/11? "I know, let's nuke everybody from Tehran to London!"

bigel fantasises about genocide. 'Nuff said, one would hope.

265 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:44:43pm

#263 Dp111

I knew a member of a branch of the Iranian royal family who was called home during that crisis by his father. I won't tell you his full name, but his last name was Kajinouri. Drove around Penn State in a Rolls. Anyone familiar with Persian names knows the deal.
But you could NOT say 'SAVAK' in his presence. He would get physically ill.

I tried to find him. State told me if I transmitted any requests to Iran and he was still in-country, it would sign his death sentence.

His mother is French. I hope he got out.

Several years later, I was down on the Mall and saw a woman in one of those black burkha get-ups protesting Khomeini. I laughed at her. Ok, here you are in your full Muslim battle-dress, in the Land of the Great Satan, begging to get you out of the situation you begged for.

She spit at me, but because her mouth was covered, it had the same effect as pissing into the wind.

Some people just can't plan ahead.

266 DP111 (DP)  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:49:12pm

262 grayp

There is a reason people here don't like the French and it's a damn good one. Actually, there are lots of reasons and they're ALL damn good.

I supose the good reasons being that they actively tried to stop the US and the UK invading Iraq. I wonder now how many Americans now wish that the French had succeeded. Certainly the opposition Democrats do. That is about half the country.

Even in Iraq, the marines are having doubts why they are there and what have they accomplished. So what will America have accomplished in Iraq. The much vaunted great concensual democracy of VDH or a shiite theocracy in alliance with Iran. Iran was a folding house of cards, but now they have been given a new lease life of life. Brain dead did I say.

The French have been fighting Isalofascism for over a decade and warned all, but the US was and still is appeasing Saudi Arabia, the heart of the Jihad. The French waged a ruthless proxy war in Algeria by supporting the Algerian governement gainst the GIA, all the while the US was castigating the French for doing so.

When it comes to grovelling before the Jihad Master, the US has no equal.

267 JWarrior  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 2:56:24pm

I agree with LR.

I really don't think that Bigel's paranoid, reactionary, pro-radioactive stance is particularly helpful. Ok, he reminds us they ARE out to get us, but do we really need reminding?

I know they are out to get me, already!

268 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:00:21pm

#266 DP111

Ah. Here, I think, is where what we read may lead us to very different world views.

I would suggest you google Eurabia; specifically Bat Ye'or.

Then I would suggest Ken Timmerman's The French Betrayal of America.

You are correct that France has been fighting Islamofacisim in its own way. But it has tried to appease the beast - no, that's not quite the way I want to say it - a Faustian bargain is probably closer to the mark.

But even back to deGaulle, before Islamofacisim was on the horizon, it was the aspiration of France to pound down the U.S.

Personal anecdote: My uncle was career Air Force. He and my aunt lived in France, attached to NATO, for seven years. When deGaulle put out the word that France was withdrawing from NATO, people my aunt and uncle had known since their arrival - hairdresseres, shopkeepers, etc., all of a sudden could not understand their French.

The French made it personal and they made it vicious.
It was petty, and therefore, typical.

269 little ramallah  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:07:32pm

Bat Ye'or on the Eurabian "project" reminds me of American LLLs on PNAC. She's gone off the deep end, no matter how much good work she's done on historical dhimmitude.

270 DP111 (DP)  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:07:34pm

257 Promethia

I do apologise for my unthinking gaffe. But I do believe that America has the right instincts.

262 grayp
I think we have been on the 'white flag' ground before.

And Bigel's fear is more correctly diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenia. Europe is not about to start up the ovens, physically or metaphorically. Anyone who believes that is a raving loony.

271 Jean  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:15:21pm

#263

The Shah was not in the good books of America as Iran was a major player in OPEC and was responsible for increased oil prices.

I don't think this was the reason. Carter hasn't changed that much. It bothered him that the US was supporting the Shah given the nature of the regime.

272 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:16:42pm

#269 little ramallah

Bat Ye'or on the Eurabian "project" reminds me of American LLLs on PNAC.

PNAC is just a subsidiary think tank outlining proposals for approaches to the future.

Bat Ye'or traces what the French GOVERNMENT did to protect itself from OPECs wrath following the Yom Kippur War - and the labor shortages in France in the seventies led directly to relaxed immigration policies toward Muslim countries.

However, several things I have been unable to determine: The French agreed to establish some institutions to further French/Arabic relations, such as an Arabic language institute, IIRC. I can't find whether or not the French ever lived up to those agreements.
Can you advise?

273 DP111 (DP)  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:18:29pm

261 J Warrior

Thank you for the invite. I'm not sure what I will be doing in th summer, so cant say anything definite. Depends largely on 'She who must be obeyed'. Probably visiting France, Switzerland and Italy. I have yet to see Pompei.

grayp

Yes Eurabia. An interesting little soundbite. Sometimes they are a useful shorthand for describing a particular phenomenon but misleading when extended beyond their limits.

274 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:20:59pm

#273 DP111

Yes Eurabia. An interesting little soundbite. Sometimes they are a useful shorthand for describing a particular phenomenon but misleading when extended beyond their limits.

Well, a retreat into smugness I see.

Bye.

275 tenpin  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:22:39pm

DP #270

Bigel may be frantic, but I don't think he's off the mark.

Europe has been looking for a way to vilify the Jews to absolve itself of the Holocaust, to say that those stinkin' Jews deserved it.

And Muslims have been Nazis since the '30s and have never reformed. Hell, how many Nazis got refuge in the Arab world?

276 halldor  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:25:20pm

#240 JWarrior

The other thing that is often forgotten is that in the UK we are growing tired of our socialist screwing the country for the last seven years. Tony Blair is going to be history soon.

The only trouble with this is that it really doesn't look as though the Tories are likely to win the next election, even with Michael Howard leading them. The Tories are a discredited force in Britain, and I believe it will take decades for them to recover. I agree with the poster - I think it was Kosher Cobra - who wondered if trying to achieve an impossible Tory victory might just lead to dethroning Blair and bringing in an even more left-leaning UK government - which would be the worst possible outcome.

277 DP111 (DP)  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:29:01pm

271 Jean

It bothered him that the US was supporting the Shah given the nature of the regime.

Maybe but I was giving him the benefit of the doubt by ascribing a real politik reason for his policy. If that was not the cae then he was just an idiot.
But do remember that policy is not set by the President. He has hundreds of advisors, the NSA, Secretaries and under Secretaries of State, who really draw up policy. Wasnt Brezienski the Secreatry of State in Caters tenure?
No I'm afraid, stupidity of an individual cannot be the reason for policy failure. Collective stupidity is ofcourse a possibility. We see this yet again in Intelligence and interpretation failure as regards Iraq's WMD.

278 Promethea  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:29:37pm

#258 DP111 . . .

I cant thank enough. I've tried over the last 6 months to continually bring LGFers together. There are many French who would like to comment here but withold given the rabidly anti-French forum that this has become.

I wish you could find a way to get more commenters here from France and other countries. I'm sure that there are people in many countries who read but don't post.

The trick is to get them to stand up for themselves, even if insulted. When I first posted, someone told me I was stupid, and I felt hurt. Then I realized that it's pointless to react at all. This form of communication is not at all like real life. You're dealing with another level of expression--maybe reversion to being 7 years old, when you said what you thought or muttered under your breath.

That's why I use a pseudonym--so I can express myself at a more gut level. However, I do try to avoid stereotyping various nationalities unless there is some meaningful truth underlying the stereotype.

#261 JWarrior . . .

I am NOT responsible for David Hasselhoff. Humpf, humpf. Insulted now.

279 little ramallah  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:32:28pm

DP 266

My oh my you are grim :-)

Sure, the American visionary message is obnoxious at best for many Muslims, and at worst a call to vicious jihad for the many idiots in Islamia.

But I don't think it has lost yet. Everything is in play. If Bush persists, or if Kerry wins and shows he has a brain cell or two, I have some hope left.

As for the French, sorry, telling 15 year old schoolgirls what to wear is not going to win any war.

Nor is supporting the murderous and corrupt Algerian government, of all freaks, a good idea. It has, is and will be done, in the name of business as usual. It also sucks and it won't work. What, Algerians are happy now and no threat to us? No? So if we massacre more of them, everything will be fine?

Anyways, if France is so clever when it fights Islamofascists, why is it so anti-Israel? Is Israel expendable in the fight?

280 NY Nana  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:39:31pm

#262 Grayp

I know that people have posted that they are coming around to bigel's pessimism (or as NY Nana says 'reality'), but no one here advocates nuking anything just yet.

No, nor do I, and I never could advocate nuking. I have a first edition of John Hersey's 'Hiroshima' that I treasure. It is small in size, but enormous in the simple grace that Hersey so brilliantly wrote with, I remember the day that the Japanese surrendered. The newsreels that I saw after WWII were horrific. What I do fear is that some of the cult of islam members will get their hands on the much-mentioned suitcase nuclear device. They want to kill us all, Jews, especially, and then the rest of the civilized world. My hatred for h***** and the nazis is something that will never leave, but the fear of the damned nazimuslims, when we will have to go into NYC this Sunday, for our only daughter's bridal shower, and to a part of Brooklyn 3 weeks later, from where you can actually see lower Manhattan, in the midst of our joy is the memory of 9/11, and the threat to our 3 sons, 2 daughters in law, and 2 little granddaughters is always there.

I feel that the war we are involved in, with the UK at our side, is a just war, if there is such a thing. Not liberating Iraq would be reprehensible. Nuclear war? Not even to stop the muslims.

Do you and Little Ramallah have any suggestions on how these terrorists can be stopped? All our lives depend on it, but most important is the future for our kids and our grandkids, and for those who are lucky enough, great-grandkids. They have the most to lose if we cannot find an answer. The disgraceful cowardice of France, Spain and Portugal, and the others running away from the coalition puts nearly all the burden on the US and the UK. I have a feeling that Canada would also join us if needed. The proviso is that PM Martin be defeated by a Conservative.

I have a feeling that you were not born til after WWII>

281 little ramallah  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:51:08pm

grayp 272

Yes, of course PNAC is a think tank story. That's why the American LLL madness is so amusing!

But the people involved do have power, and they are thinking tanks.

Same for Europe, 'cept we think "dialogue" {spit}.

Sure, oil influences European foreign policies. Does it not influence American policies? ;-)

I don't know the fate of all Franco-Arab initiatives, but if learning languages is among them, I'm a happy boy. Fort Meade is hard to staff with good people sometimes, and things ain't much better over here.

282 halldor  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:52:39pm

#256 grayp


I mean, who on earth wants that shithole? How was it a threat to the USSR?

The Soviets invaded Afghanistan primarily in order to destabilize the Persian gulf region - one direct result of the invasion was the the overthrow of the Shah of Iran, and the establishment of an Islamic fundamentalist regime in Tehran. The Shah's fall lost America its most important ally in the region.

283 DP111 (DP)  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 3:58:00pm

275 tenpin

Europe has been looking for a way to vilify the Jews to absolve itself of the Holocaust, to say that those stinkin' Jews deserved it.

With that I will agree partially. But you have to be particular when you say Europe ie the political leadership of Europe. However I wont admit to to say that the stinkin Jews deserved it.
The reason is guilt. If 'Europe' can convict Israel for being just as inhuman in its treatment of Palestinians, then it gets continental Europe of the hook.

grayp

No smugness. I dont quite see why you think that I'm being smug. I have read her works and she does make a good case.

Anyway G'night.

----------------------------------------
Some people explain Bigel by saying that he is in the grip of fear as he feels that everybody is out to get the Jews with Islamofascists in the lead. Many apparantly concur.
The reality is somewhat different. In the last two decades atleast 2 million Christians have been killed in Sudan. The ancient Christian comunities of Iraq, 'Palestine' and other Arab countries have been decimated. Christians are under persistent attack and murder in Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Egypt. In the last two years some 10000 people have been killed in Nigeria. And hundreds of churches destroyed in these countries. If anyone is being got at, it is the Christian community in Islamic countries, while the Christian West ignores them on grounds of PC. Not even a thousandth of this is happening to Jewish people anywhere in the world. If I have sympathy, it is for these poor people, who have no one to even raise a cry when they are murdered, leave alone a defence. Not even the Church dares in fear of being accused of racism.

------------------------
Here is a good article by David Warren on Iraq

[Link: www.davidwarrenonline.com...]
-----------------------

G'night Promethia if you are still around. Its 2am here.

284 Promethea  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 4:01:06pm

#283 DP111 . . .

Goodnight. Happy dreams.

285 DP111 (DP)  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 4:13:24pm

279 little ramallah

This is a cultural war in the main. A war of ideas. There maybe some military activity on the side as in Iraq and Afghanistan, but it is of secondary consequence except to make a point. Remember 'Shock and Awe'. That was not real war but a blaze of pyrotechnics. Making a political point rather then actual war making.

In this Jihad, Islam is very strong as it is united with a single creed and is fighting the war on its own terms. That has always been Islams strong point. But its strength is also its weakness. That is if it concedes one point in its dogma, the whole house collapses.
Women are the Achilles heel of Islam. They are the vanguard in every sense of the word. The violent Jihadis are just the 'Shock and Awe' if you like. Freedom for women in Islam in general, will collapse Islam like nothing else. The French are on the right track with the hijab and now the immediate deportation of the imam who advocated beating women. Note: Freedom and equality for women.

286 DP111 (DP)  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 4:21:51pm

PS:

Bigel cloaks the nuking Europe/UK in what he delicately refers to as the Sampson option.
-----------------------------------------------
Definite G'night and sweet dreams to you to Promethia. I'm really sorry if I caused any offence. None was meant; it was just a smart allecky thing to say.

287 zulubaby  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 4:23:52pm

DP, give it up already! A whole thread about bigel. Sheesh.

288 Proud Albertan  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 4:40:27pm

Charles, my first thought upon reading this post of yours was that it was something by The Onion or some kind of prank put on by someone.....

Horrifically, as I followed the link, it was completely serious.............as someone else said earlier, our Civilization is doomed...........if we do not have the moral soundness to imprison or execute or deport such people, then we really are not deserving of a free state!

Our we in the Western World going to wake up the the FACT that Islam is no different then Nazism or Marxism??? Do we think we can hold onto our freedoms cheaply???

America has so many noble founders and wonderful quotes........I am paraphrasing and I think it was Patrick Henry (sorry, my knowledge of American History is dismal) where he said, 'The price of Liberty is vigilance'..............or something to that effect...

If we continue to educate our young people to hate there country and civilization and European roots as we are doing in the Western World, we will destroy ourselves.....

We need to be proud of what we have accomplished......and we need to start teaching patriotism in our Schools........and so forth....

Thanks

Somber Albertan

289 grayp  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 4:47:44pm

Yikes, is it just me on my pathetic little dial up line or is this site slower than my synapses on gin?

NY Nana

I have a first edition of John Hersey's 'Hiroshima' that I treasure.

I didn't find that book until middle school. But, in second grade I read the book about Doolittle's reaid over Tokyo. Yeah, born after WWII. Dad was a pilot stationed outside Chelmsford, England. Penultimate mission was D-day. His story about that is one for the ages.

Do you and Little Ramallah have any suggestions on how these terrorists can be stopped?

Part of it is military, but the most important part is cutting off the cultural oxygen. Hence my support for the Iraq incursion. The Middle East has to change, and while currently it looks more inflamed in Iraq I think there is a good chance it will settle down. Democracy? Don't know. But the Iraqis are a bright, creative people who value education and hard work. It will take time, but if it weren't working in our favor, Iran wouldn't be in the throes of panic, throwing everything they can think of in there.

As for nuking - I have NO problem with it under some circumstances. But only to take out other nuclear threats, imminent or in the works.

#281 little ramallah

Sure, oil influences European foreign policies. Does it not influence American policies? ;-)

Now don't go all cute on me. Perhaps if I provide more context, I will be clearer about things.

deGaulle established the anti-American tilt of French policy. With the advent of American unambiguous support of Israel and the oil embargo post Yom Kippur, the French saw a change to conflate the anti-America stance with a pro-Arab stance to give them a role as a counterweight, and get out from under the threat of the oil embargo - a trifecta. But you cannot read the bilge Chris Patten spews about the EUs support of the Palestinians, the UNs oil-for-food bribery crap, and think all of Europes stance was based on some lofty principle. Actually, even some EU MPs have some not very nice things to say. Ilka Schroder tells it like it is.

The Palestinians are playing the ugly role of being the cannon fodder for Europe's hidden war against the US.

link

#282 halldor

The Soviets invaded Afghanistan primarily in order to destabilize the Persian gulf region -

I am inexcusably ignorant about that whole era. I have work to do.

#283 DP111

I dont quite see why you think that I'm being smug

Eurabia is not a soundbite. And for someone who thought she made a good case, you certainly managed to belittle the whole concept.

290 John Schneider  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 5:34:58pm
“Yes,” he replies, unequivocally. "When a bomb attack happens here, I won’t be against it, even if it kills my own children. Islam is clear: Muslims living in lands that are occupied have the right to attack their invaders.

Come to Texas. We would welcome you with open arms...


/said the spider to the fly...

291 qüark2 ♥ johnson  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 7:54:14pm

I am amazed at the consensus of some of the posters, who must have access to some very secret information. Because they consistently argue there NO WMD.

My horde of crows continues to grow for that pie many will partake of.

If you haven't read Wretchards essay today, it's very important.
Would you like yellow cake with your tea?

[Link: Belmont...] Club.blogspot.com
"Bits and Pieces".

292 John  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:23:05pm

#290 John Schnider:

Ditto for Mexico. Let those islamic fundamentalist bastards try to come here and give us their bull shit. Ha!

293 Miguel  Wed, Apr 21, 2004 10:24:58pm

John Schneider, sorry for the misspelling :)

294 DP111  Thu, Apr 22, 2004 2:45:35am

grayp

She makes a good case but when stretched beyond the limit it becomes a soundbite.
The US has been without any doubt, the greatest enabler of militant Islam worldwide, after Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Eurabia comes nowhere near. I'm surprised that crescent flag does not fly at Crawford ranch and at Camp David. It should, given that Prince Bandar is invited there more often the PM of Australia. Or for matter, the only planes flying in the aftermath of 9/11 were Air Force 1 and the bin Laden family flight 1.

Perhaps we should rename the USA as the Saudi States of America. It has much more justification then Eurabia.

295 Jed  Thu, Apr 22, 2004 4:35:43am

What Britian needs is a Patrick Buchanan to say, "Should Britian's laws made in London or Arabia?"

Or would he only apply this charge of dual loyalty to Jews in America?

296 OneWord  Thu, Apr 22, 2004 4:39:21am

These al-Muhajiroun scum really p*** me off.
But.
People ask 'why not lock them up or deport them?'
There IS a good reason.

Like Old Hooky Boy these traitorous little w******s aren't dangerous themselves. They're a bunch of mouthy retards who like to show off, so they can strut round their manor making out they're real hard jihadis.

Oh sure, come the time, I'll smile to see the SAS or Bronze Section redecorate their rooms with 'hint of brain', or sharing some quality time in the Scrubs with a skin in a bad mood.
But meantime, I like my enemies where I can see them.
Leave s*** in the sun, it attracts the flies.

They've got The Funny People up the wazzoo. They can't belch without blowing out half a dozen speakers at GCHQ.
And all it takes is one guy in an active cell to go anywhere near one of these clowns, and the cell is blown and it's time for a chat down Paddington Green.

The worry is the smart ones, domestics who've stayed clear of the mouth merchants, or imported talent with good cover.

Plus, they're good at reminding the ordinary Brit who hasn't woken up to reality what we're up against.

And they keep my anger with a nicely honed edge.

297 Greg  Thu, Apr 22, 2004 5:17:32am

This London Standard article was openly discussed and for an hour read aloud and discussed on our local Twin Cities talk radio station by local talk show hosts...so it is getting out this side of the Atlantic....a cold shiver went down everyones back while listening to this cold-blooded conversation by this four "terrorists in waiting"...

Britain...wakes up...and deport everything that bows towards Mecca....otherwise you will be fighting them in the streets...and you poor bastards have been disarmed by your f*ckin' Labor Govt....betcha the [bigoted word]s are not and are ready to strike...

298 Psychobarb  Thu, Apr 22, 2004 9:55:05am

#117 and #116:

JWarrior and Bigel:

Okay, Warrior, I about to become a Jew living in Great Britain and while there are tons of things I admire about the UK, here are my concerns:

--Sheer numbers, it scares the shit out of me that I am going to live in a country that has slightly more Jews than the city I live in, here in the US. And since most of the UKs Jews are in London, if you are outside London, the numbers are really small. I will be in an area with 700 Jews and G-d knows how many Muslims.

--The synagague I will be going to can only get enough people for a minyon once a month and is essentially located in a bungalow (at least it has a low profile).

--My sense is that Britain's Jews, while comfortable, are somewhat closeted. I have been told by attorneys working in London that no one actually mentions being Jewish, but allude to "religious concerns."

--Let's face it, outside of Israel, there is no Jewish community like that of the US. You can be Jewish in most major US cities without being overly self conscious. I don't think that's true of any European city.

--Is it due to anti-Semitism? Or just the Brits tendency not to overeact and play down strong emotion. I like to think, actually I pray, that when London is hit, people will rightly blame Arabs and not Jews. Or if Arabs start firebombing synagogues, please G-d not the bungalow I'll be in, Blair will call it anti-Semitism, not "hooliganism."

--I guess we'll find out. But JWarrior, you've got to admit, the Brits have some of this leftover, snide, "It's fine to be Jewish as long as you are not too Jewish,' thing going, and the fact no one calls them on it is shameful.

299 Shadow Merchant  Fri, Apr 23, 2004 7:28:44am

How hard would it be for MI5 to find out where these lice meet?

And then blow it to Kingdom Come with ten thousand pounds of Semtex one fine Friday?

What on Earth do we have a government spy service for, if not for killing vermin like this?


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