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-RetweetThe Power to Do Good

Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 6:27:44 pm PDT

Victor Davis Hanson reviews the new book by Niall Ferguson, Colossus: The Price of America’s Empire: The Power to Do Good.

SO, the real crises of American power are soaring entitlements, unfunded social mandates and ever-increasing laxity and affluence among an indulgent citizenry. While we fret about prescription-drug benefits, the madrassas turn out soldiers of Islam who are emboldened in their hostility precisely because of our restraint and self-absorption. We have deficits of sorts galore - but they involve shortcomings in galvanizing spiritual power, fielding enough willing soldiers and setting sensible budget priorities.

This is a bold, original and eccentric argument, and there will be plenty of critics who will pounce on Ferguson’s Gibbonesque theory of internal decline and imperial denial. Indeed, sometimes Ferguson himself gives critics easy ammunition.

Need soldiers? Ferguson advises that we look at the millions of prison convicts, illegal immigrants and chronic unemployed who could easily be induced to serve in a massive new imperial army - as if the U.S. military is looking for such bodies for its high-tech, high morale expeditionary forces.

Ferguson really does argue that far from spending too little at home, our real problems are federal wasteful entitlements for couch potatoes. Americans risk becoming softies, pear-shaped and fat, with maxed-out credit cards, waiting to check out in luxurious rest homes - the entire society in danger of becoming an “inert lump of old iron.”

But the Marines - some with dyed hair and Ray Bans - who drove to Baghdad in three weeks, and the Rangers who sleep out in the Hindu Kush, hardly seem the same sort of fellows as those who pour out into the streets of European cities to protest for a 35-hour work week and more government unemployment insurance.

Twenty-six days after 9/11, Americans were in Afghanistan; 40 hours after a similar al Qaeda attack, the Spanish electorate voted in Socialists on the promise that they would get out of Iraq pronto. Our population may seem soft and flabby on university campuses and think tanks, but the sort of Americans I see out here in rural central California like to fight, work to exhaustion and, for the most part, worry more about what we are going to do to our enemies in the Middle East, rather than they to us.

Ferguson, in contrast, thinks that if we keep this indulgence up as a nation, we should fear not the Chinese, Middle East or jealous Europeans, but rather ourselves, who will have to either appease, bribe or apologize to a growing group of emboldened barbarians and terrorists.

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1 johnCV  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 4:36:46pm

As ever, Dr. Hanson is quick to get the measure of a liberal argument.

Just another of the 'it's all our fault' types, with a different twist.

The pointy-heads really do need to get out more...

2 evariste  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 4:37:05pm
Those who got it right about America were not Woodrow Wilson and Jimmy Carter, but Teddy Roosevelt and Douglas MacArthur. The latter did not welcome war, but accepted that the world outside our shores was often a pretty rotten place that would take and take until someone - usually us - stopped it.

Teddy Roosevelt not welcoming war? When? I gotta see this!

Does Ferguson propose a new American liberal empire? In fact, he does almost, but not before noting that the British Victorians themselves got a bad rap as exploitive colonialists. In fact, the record of the 18th and 19th centuries prove exactly the opposite: Former and once-prosperous colonies, following autonomy, quickly turned into self-induced miseries, while Britain itself thrived as never before once free of these costly obligations.

I agree, the British got a bad rap.

3 Bob Normal  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 4:37:20pm

After having just put in 11 hours with no lunch(voluntary) I have to say piss on that idiot... Soft? maybe some elitist P.O.S. but not us Americans,you know the REAL ONES!!!

4 johnCV  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 4:37:41pm

First?

Really?

5 Mike McDaniel  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 4:43:48pm

Read the full review. Hanson is generally complimentary - and I concur that the United States' biggest weakness is not our foes, but our own willingness to sacrifice national security to buy another welfare. Anyone familiar with the defense and welfare budgets of the last forty years KNOWS how much of an all-consuming black hole the welfares are - and how strapped the military has been to tread water while social spending exploded. People seem to forget that we fought the latest campaigns in Iraq with twenty-year-old tanks, thirty-year-old airplanes, and forty-year-old ships.

That being said, Hanson is right. The American military needs money and support, not a horde of convicts or conscripts. We're fundamentally a seapower, and command of the seas is capital-intensive, not manpower-intensive.

6 FH  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 4:44:22pm

evariste, I agree. I don't think that there has ever been a bigger warmonger than Teddy. The man loved to fight.

7 SoCalJustice  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 4:46:05pm

OT

My local PBS station is currently showing a program called:

Islam: Empire of Faith

“The Messenger” (Part 1 of three) recalls Muhammad's life and explores why his central message---“there is only one God”---took hold in an empire the size of Rome in just 100 years. Says historian Esin Atil: “There was a need for a new vision.” Ben Kingsley narrates.

That's Muhammad's central message?

I thought it was "peace."

There's a whole lotta whitewashing going on.

8 dexter green  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 4:46:49pm

OT, though it fits under the "Power to Do Good" banner:

(The Pat Tillman threads have dropped so far down the page that I had to post this here in order for anyone to see it.)

An ESPN.com article, "You can't buy patriotism":

You could've missed it entirely. You had to go to Page 6 of the growing list of items listed on eBay to find it, past the scads of Pat Tillman cards for sale, and the autographed mini-footballs, and the jerseys, and the "American Hero" T-shirts. You had to go past the Tillman Arizona Cardinals uniform top that was already up to $305, and the Tillman signed ball that was at $128.40 and ascending.

You had to get past the commerce of the dead, that is, to reach a word to the living.

...

"Many sellers are currently featuring Pat Tillman memorabilia to cash in on the death of an American hero," the "seller" wrote. "Think about it."

The author then asked readers to pony up their bids instead for a fund that would be donated to the charity of the "winning" bidder's choice -- essentially, eBay regulars are asked to fork over their money for something they couldn't actually put their hands on and own.

...

The leading bid as of Monday afternoon: Eleven cents.

Dismayed, I searched eBay and found the auction in question. As it turns out, I was late to the party. Current bid: $1,425.00. (Up to $1,500 in the time it's taken me to write this post.)

I can't touch that, so I've decided instead to make a donation to the Spirit of America in Mr. Tillman's name. I would urge any of you who haven't yet given to the SoA campaign (a very good cause) to do the same.

-dg

9 Insufficiently Sensitive  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 4:48:34pm

I liked Ferguson's book on 'Empire', but his present take on American citizens (if VDH's reflection is accurate) isn't universally accurate. And his proposal for use of losers as military is wildly off the mark - unless the US goes Democratic and restores the draft, and the 'dumb' model of army that drafted us in the 60s.

TE Lawrence described that sort of army as one that reduced EVERYONE to lowest common denominator, so that the officers could rely absolutely on that level of performance.

10 abc  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 4:49:46pm
In reality, we should be natural imperialists, given our wealth and expertise.


Bless VDH's heart, but this is not true, exactly.

America ought to be moral imperialists.

And nothing else.

Because, a man has a right to his life,
and he wouldn't know it, if not for America.

11 Chet Roi  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 4:51:48pm

I’ve been thinking, if America is such a great Empire why aren’t we acting like an Empire? Throughout history, Empires have been pretty consistent in their behavior. They roll in, crush the locals in the most brutal fashion, plunder both the material and human treasure of the conquered and then demand tribute. Where the hell’s our tribute. We should be getting at least half of Iraq’s oil revenues. It would sure help the deficit. Afghanistan has no oil revenues but they produce lots of heroin. We could use that heroin. The LLL would kill for that heroin. We take it from the Afghans and give it to the LLL. Everybody’s happy. Why should they demonstrate when they can get high - for free.

It’s time for Bush to give up on the Mr. Goodie Two Shoes routine and be an Emperor.

12 johnCV  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 4:56:26pm

I went back as re-read the review in greater detail and I come away with:

- our greatest problems come when we don't exert our full force in dealing with whatever the issue at hand is.

- we may have some severe pending problems relating to over spending etc., but this is nothing comopared to what europe will see.

- we are too concerned about small, internal, 'gimme' issues as opposed to the life and death struggle being thrust upon us.

- while the euroweenies whine and suck harder at the goverenment teat, we get up and do something when challenged.

- but then if we don't 'get tough', we will be in for the same fate as the europeans.

Ferguson seems to take both sides of some arguments, but I withdraw my pointy-headed comment from above.

13 ylreveb  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 4:56:42pm

I keep thinking of two things:

On Sept. 12, the folks at my parents' church in a small town in Tennessee had a prayer service for the casualties in the attacks. Afterwards, my dad said, "the men here were talking about what we're going to do to respond to this." And they weren't talking about diplomacy.

And on Flight 93, Todd Beamer and the other guys voted to take down the terrorists.

Americans are patient folks, maybe soft on the outside--but we have a steel core.

14 Reza  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 4:58:52pm

Your Godless "civilization" is crumbling and still you deny reality. Your grandchildren will be Muslim.

Allahu akbar

15 realwest  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:03:10pm

NOW this is truly OT - Today John Kerry questioned President Bush's records on his National Guard service.
NO, seriously!!
I've posted on a few other threads over time that I didn't think we should go after him based on his war "records" (especially because a) he did serve apparently very honorably and b) there's sooo much ammo to use on him SINCE he served over there.
Now this sonofayouknowwhat question's Bush' service while giving a pass to Bubba

BTW - does anyone remember what Kerry's mentor Ted
("I can't swim") Kennedy did for military service?

16 patrickafir  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:09:57pm

Man, I hate to lionize the guy like some college-aged fanboy, but V.D.H. hits the mark with an accuracy and frequency rarely seen elsewhere.

17 Kragar (proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:12:38pm

#14 Reza

God is on the side with superior firepower.

There is no god named Allah and Mohammed was a pedophile.

18 Q  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:13:40pm

#14:

And happy Naqba Day to you, too!

19 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:17:46pm

Read David Warren's latest pieces.

Iraq is hardly being returned to Saddam Hussein. He will be tried, and I should think, executed in due course. But the country IS now being returned to the cesspool of Middle East politics. The Bush administration, and more largely, the United States whose interests it represents, cannot afford to govern Iraq indefinitely. Nor are they capable, as the White House has begun to realize, of imposing a democratic order on Iraqi society, as an earlier America imposed democracy on Germany and Japan after World War II. Iraq was not defeated in war; only its hideous tyrant removed, and a very cursory effort made at de-Ba'athification. The Iraqi people must finally find their own way to grace.

Nevertheless, if any of them believed President Bush's fond promise to bring democracy, through Iraq, to the entire Middle East, they have already been betrayed. (I doubt, however, that many believed the rhetoric.) This is because the transition to "democracy" is now being brokered not by Paul Bremer and the U.S., but by Lakhdar Brahimi, an Algerian diplomat, and the United Nations.

His follow up says that he was surprised how uncontroversial the premiss of his previous essay was:
That the US can't bring democracy to Iraq short of heavy handed suppression of all Islamic power, al la Attiturk and that since we can't do that, we're giving up on democracy entirely.

This leaves me with a question. What now? If we can't bring democracy to the middle east, is there any way to avoid a massive war when middle eastern regimes/upper classes finally manage to funnel WMDs to the terrorists?

20 FH  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:17:47pm

#14 Reza

Your Godless "civilization" is crumbling and still you deny reality. Your grandchildren will be Muslim.

We will turn the world into ashes before we let that happen. You represent the worst humanity has to offer. History will forget you and all that you represent. You shall be nothing in the end.

21 E.S.  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:17:57pm

Very good book review. Niall Ferguson is a good author - haven't read Colossus but will go get a copy now. VDH is spot on with his recommendations. But this point of view smacks of "White Man's Burden" - too much (overly pickled) Kipling perhaps? 'Natural imperalism' arguments can be based on Hobbes -- or Hume, in a twisted sort of way -- but those address masses of people, not political systems, which are a much different beast. Although under all the sophistication, their analyses shine through, but something has to knock the system on its ass for that basic behavior to take over.

22 Chet Roi  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:19:18pm

Reza

Ours is not a “G-dless” civilization and it’s not crumbling – it is thriving. Robots on Mars, nanotechnology, airborne lasers that shoot down missiles – that’s what we produce. It’s the worshippers of Baal (allah) who are crumbling. You can’t even feed your people. Satan is driving you to your destruction and you’re sucking up his lies. While we laugh, drink and eat barbeque – your bellies will be burning in hell. My grandchildren will live in the lap of luxury while yours cry in the wilderness for bitter water and rancid fat.

Oh, and about that Allahu akbar stuff. Did you ever read the hadith about the Prophet? It seems that before battle he always took a leak (for luck) and as his stream weakened he would scream at the top of his lungs, “Allahu Akbar Yaaarrrggghhh it burns.” True story.

23 Promethea  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:19:21pm

#14 Reza . . .

Your Godless "civilization" is crumbling and still you deny reality. Your grandchildren will be Muslim.

Hi, Reza. Please tell us why you think our civilization is crumbling? I'd be interested to hear your views.

24 Q  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:19:33pm

#14:

And happy Naqba Day to you, too!

25 armytramp  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:23:03pm

#14 My civilization is not only older than yours, but will outlast yours you Mohammed-come-latel- to-the-One-God idea--thousand of years lately as even the Zoroastrians had the lock on that one god idea before Mohammed's schizophrenia gave him nightly visions of an angel three ells high and demented rambling about how he, the "prophet", was really much more entitled to poontang than everyone else-- even kiddy poontang like he got from his nine-year-old bride (though reports say he waited to give her a ride until she was twelve--what a sweet guy!)

Not only will my children be anything but unreasoning, unethical, Koran thumping, everybody-but-Arab-hating relgious fanatics, but I for one would love to marry Victor Davis Hanson and give him five kids. That IQ should be passed on to future generations.

Unfortunately, we don't believe in polygamy over here and being an ethical person, I wouldn't horn in on his wife's territory.

No go crawl back under your burkha and keep your mouth shut in public like a good little muzzled Muslim girly girl.

Beware! The next time you get airs above your station, maybe one of your Muslim male keepers will beat the crap out of you, throw in the women's room and let you starve to death, or stone you in public for being uppity.

It's what you wanted. Live with it.

26 slipkid  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:26:22pm

Ten easy steps to lose the war.

1. Allow media access to combat zones, and do not censor any reporting.

2. Refuse to name the enemy and declare war.

3. Do not respond to enemy atrocities.

4. Pull back troops before achieving decisive victory.

5. Negotiate with the enemy.

6. Claim that Islam is a Religion of Peace, and that Jihad is not war upon the non-Islamic world.

7. Allow enemies to use religious sites, cities, and civilians as shields against attack.

8. Let politics guide war strategy.

9. Respond to terrorist attacks with law enforcement strategy.

10. Blame your country for being attacked.

27 FH  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:38:58pm

Incidentally, was LGF really slow for everyone else too a few minutes ago?

28 Kragar (proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:39:23pm

OT

OK lets look at this:

Iraqis: US using cluster bombs in Fallujah

The Marines would not use cluster bombs in a city they were about to or planning to assault, precisely because they are prone to failure and leave unexploded munitions. The killing area would also leave wide swathes of destruction throughout Fallujah, which cannot be seen.

Cluster Bombs: Warning - Graphic Images

This is another case of a "buzz word", in this instance cluster bombs (quagmire and occupation are also popular), being used to try to generate a response form Western Media and has no relationship to events on the ground.

29 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:39:28pm

#14 Reza

Don't fuck with the US. We'd take the whole damn middle east out before we'd allow the US to fall. Remember this country still has the MIRVs and nuclear submarines left over from the cold war. H-Bombs, not A-Bombs. And neutron bombs to take out oil fields without setting them ablaze.

They used to say we have enough missiles to destroy the world 100 times over - and we still have them all.

30 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:40:44pm

#27 FH


No, It looks like it hit blogspot too...wonder what happened.

31 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:40:56pm

#27 FH
yes

32 ylreveb  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:41:30pm

#17

heh heh heh

why do the heathen rage? [snort]

33 armytramp  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:44:29pm

The only reason #14 is here to even post her nonsense is the extraordinary restraint of OUR civilization,a civilization that could, at any time, turn her entire world into glass.

The only children you will have, #14, O daughter of dogs, is at the grace of our civilization, a world that has exercized extraordinary patience ever since that dildo with a double first name Sirhan Sirhan blew away Bobby Kennedy for having the temerity to like Jewish people.

When your backward religion and civilization finally creep and crawl its way into the 21st century, we'll be happy to have you along for a glorious future. Until you can grow up and leave the Dark Ages, you're not welcome to play with adults.

Godless? Hardly. We just don't believe that an illiterate camel herder heard anything but the rhetoric of his own psychosis.

Your prophet is false. The Koran is a meandering load of nonsense, a billious fiction. I've read it several dozen times.

I really liked the chaper about going to heaven and getting to be served by all the beautiful young dark eyed beardless boys as fair as pearls, but unfortunately, they are not intended to be there to entertain lowly women like me. The emphasis on their presence to entertain worthy men, however, isn't lost to my wit, and I would wonder about the intentions of some of those suicide bombers. Closet cases, I'm betting.


I get to go outside all by myself. With my head uncovered. With no one's permission. To speak in public, to hold any job I like, to drive a car. Can you?

34 JimmytheClaw  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:45:20pm

OT
today outlook was hijaacked by a vicous worm if anyone got email from me earlier dont open and i apologize i think evariste was the only one in my outlook list anyhoo its been all day and a nice refreshing reformat if i ever catch the person who sent me the worm i'll go bigel on em

35 Momzilla  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:45:48pm

#15 realwest - Ted served 2 years in the Army (51-53) as a PFC. Not a combat vet.

Source: Navy League

36 Evil Otto  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:45:55pm

#14 Reza (who is no doubt merely a troll desperately hoping for attention, but who I feel like slapping around for the moment):

Your Godless "civilization" is crumbling and still you deny reality. Your grandchildren will be Muslim.

Big talk. Muslim civilization has produced nothing of value for centuries. Not art, not science, not social advancements, not literature, not new military technology or tactics, nothing. Islam has not won a war with any western power in longer than anyone reading this has been alive.

Your pathetic boasts are meaningless. My grandchildren will be free to choose *whatever* path they want, and if you try to interfere I and others like me will see you dead.

Allahu akbar

Am Yisrael Chai.

37 Farmer Joe  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:47:31pm

#14 Reza

"Six days, bitch."

38 JimmytheClaw  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:48:37pm

#7 SoCalJustice 4/26/2004 06:46PM PST

yeah i seen all those i downloaded em and watched them and they are a well done but waaay off history documentary

anyon see prince bandhar doing the news show circuit in the past few days

39 Perry  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:48:59pm

#14 Reza

Yep, that's some Religion of Peace you got there.

I was born and raised in this country and frequently stop and thank God for it. I don't deserve it and hope I can live up to the heritage that was handed to me by my parents. Can you truly say the same? You've been handed something hateful, demeaning and false. I have every right to question my leaders regarding their ideology and morality, just as I am challenged in my deficiency. Obviously you do not. I can't say how I would behave if I'd been raised to believe that most of the world deserved to die, but I hope I would summon my courage and speak up. Maybe that would be worth dying for.

40 JimmytheClaw  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:52:36pm

is that the reza troll from jihad watch

41 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:52:47pm

#36 Evil Otto

They HAVE managed to create an indoctrination system that creates the world's most disgusting xenophobes, prevents parents from taking care of their children in Palestine and makes people cheer mass murders of all sorts.

Currently they've achieved a 50% illiteracy rate and the only much used language that has very few books translated into it. Even Edward Said wrote an article decrying the fact that muslims seem to consider ignorance of their (self chosen) enemies a virtue.

I'm sure we'll see greater self defeating feats to come.

42 Axiom aka Iron Chef Patton  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:53:42pm

OT: Gorelick's memo may have impeded investigations between Chinese money and influence of US general elections.
Link

Leitner was eventually overruled, but according to court documents, within months of the plant being exported to China, U.S. officials learned that the sensitive machine tools had been diverted to a Chinese factory manufacturing Silkworm missiles.

Leitner told CNSNews.com that he informed the federal prosecutor in the case that the CATIC license was approved over his objections because of "pressure from Vice President Gore." That testimony, however, was never heard in court.

43 JimmytheClaw  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:55:07pm

#25 armytramp 4/26/2004 07:23PM PST


reza is a male name persian in origin i believe fact check me and prove me right or wrong

44 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:55:31pm

My post #19 seemed to get lost/ignored in the slow down.

I'm posting a somewhat better worded version. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Read David Warren's latest pieces.

Iraq is hardly being returned to Saddam Hussein. He will be tried, and I should think, executed in due course. But the country IS now being returned to the cesspool of Middle East politics. The Bush administration, and more largely, the United States whose interests it represents, cannot afford to govern Iraq indefinitely. Nor are they capable, as the White House has begun to realize, of imposing a democratic order on Iraqi society, as an earlier America imposed democracy on Germany and Japan after World War II. Iraq was not defeated in war; only its hideous tyrant removed, and a very cursory effort made at de-Ba'athification. The Iraqi people must finally find their own way to grace.

Nevertheless, if any of them believed President Bush's fond promise to bring democracy, through Iraq, to the entire Middle East, they have already been betrayed. (I doubt, however, that many believed the rhetoric.) This is because the transition to "democracy" is now being brokered not by Paul Bremer and the U.S., but by Lakhdar Brahimi, an Algerian diplomat, and the United Nations.

His follow up says that he was surprised how uncontroversial the premiss of his previous essay was:
That the US can't bring democracy to Iraq short of heavy handed suppression of all Islamic power, al la Ataturk and that since we can't do that without some sort of powerful secularist movement, we're giving up on democracy entirely.

This leaves me with a question. What now? If we can't bring democracy to the middle east, is there any way to avoid the massive war that will wipe out the middle east when the middle eastern regimes/Islamist upper classes finally manage to funnel WMDs to the terrorists?

45 armytramp  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 5:57:58pm

#43


I remember this person posting before and claiming to be female.

If he's male, he's a girly man.

Bet he's looking forward to a piece of those dark eyed boys, then.

46 Promethea  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:01:24pm

I think Reza is an Iranian man. But he should be treated like a bitch (both dog and obnoxious woman).

Anyway, Reza, I hope you are still here and are reading all the responses to your post. You'd better believe them. When Americans boast, they usually make good their threats.

47 Jaffar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:01:38pm

#40 JimmytheClaw

Yes it is.

This is from the comments section of Jihad Watch, under the story titled "Militants in Europe Openly Call for Jihad and Rule of Islam"

You are whistling into the wind. Your rotten, Godless "civilization" is crumbling all around you, and yet you continue to deny reality. As I have said many times before, your grandchildren will be Muslim. You cannot defy the will of Almighty Allah (swt).

Allahu akbar

Posted by Reza at April 26, 2004 11:07 AM

48 JimmytheClaw  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:02:29pm

#45 armytramp 4/26/2004 07:57PM PST
lol a troll by the same name with the same comments got pissed a while back when someone called him a girl on jihad watch

49 Gordon  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:03:13pm

It's time for a little fisking of an LGF icon and one of Charles' favorite people, the legendary Victor Davis Hanson:

"Americans' setbacks - from the negotiated settlement in Korea, the pullout from Vietnam, the mess in Haiti and the last quarter-century of appeasement accorded fundamentalist terrorists - resulted from an innate unease with using our power to its full extent to promote our own liberal values. "

We would have been promoting "liberal values" by dropping nuclear weapons on China? That's what Douglas McArthur wanted to do instead of fight a limited ground war. We were promoting "liberal values" in Vietnam? No, we were promoting a failed oligarchy left over from French Colonial Indochina. There was no democratic or liberal group in Vietnam with the values VDH says we should have more vigorously promoted. The "mess in Haiti?" Once again, we have a choice of dictatorial demagogues (Aristide) or dictatorial military men (Cedras). No liberal values to promote there. As for a quarter-century of appeasement - does VDH really think it was a mistake to support rebel fighters against the Russians in Afghanistan? Would he rather be still fighting the Cold War right now? Is Hanson of the Robert Spencer/Ploome persuasion who thinks we should have not helped the Bosnian Muslims against Serb and Croat ethnic cleansing, because a few Islamic fundamentalists joined the fight? If so, what a putz.

"the British Victorians themselves got a bad rap as exploitive colonialists. In fact, the record of the 18th and 19th centuries prove exactly the opposite: Former and once-prosperous colonies, following autonomy, quickly turned into self-induced miseries, while Britain itself thrived as never before once free of these costly obligations"

There's quite a bit of historical inaccuracy in this statement, a shocking amount considering that VDH claims to be a historian. The British took India during a period of local weakness and promptly sucked the lifes blood out of it for their own gain. India is much more prosperous now 55 years after it shed not only British imperialism but the paternalistic socialism of India's first rulers who perpetuated the misery. Does Hanson really think that the U.S., Canada, Australia, and South Africa sank into misery once they freed themselves of the British yoke? That Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya and other currently miserable African nations were not miserable places for all but the colonial elite?

And Britain sank to its lowest point economically and politically AFTER it had shed all of its colonies, in the 1970's. It no longer had access to the colonial spoils and hadn't figured out an alternative economic strategy yet. Only after it joined the EU and got itself a decent leader in Margaret Thatcher (who for all of her current euroscepticism led the nation headfirst into the European Union) did Britain turn itself around.

"the sort of Americans I see out here in rural central California like to fight, work to exhaustion and, for the most part, worry more about what we are going to do to our enemies in the Middle East, rather than they to us"

Since almost 50% of the population of rural central California is of Hispanic origin, it is ironic that the same Victor Davis Hanson who extols the American values of this populace decries their origins in his scare-tome Mexifornia. Or did Hanson not mean to include this half of the central California population in his paean?

Some facts to back this up:

2000 Census:

Tulare County 50.8% hispanic
Kings County 43.6 % hispanic
Kern County 38.4% hispanic
Fresno County 44.0% hispanic
Madera County 44.3% hispanic
Merced County 45.3% hispanic

50 Frisco Patriot  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:03:42pm

#14 Reza

You couldn't be more wrong, kid. The worst is yet to come for Allah and his crew. You people fight from a "shame" basis - to defend against mostly imaginary insults. We in the Judeo/Christian West battle from a "guilt" nexus, as in - "What did i/we do wrong to deserve this attack? How can I defend myself and/or my country without going too far (protecting religious sites of the enemy, not killing 'too many' of them, being 'compassionate' etc), and so on, the endless "guilt" trip rationale for civilized actions in war. However, what you haven't grasped is that eventually a certain line is crossed over here - andthenblammo! - as somebody likes to say. And what happens? Japan is nuked, Germany gets pulverized. I mean, thoroughly crushed and humiliated to the point where you go way, way beyond "shame" into complete submission and surrender. That's why Germany and Japan surrendered and rebuilt their societies. And that's what will happen to the Jihadi Gangsters as well. I mean, it's not like you don't know how, right? Islam means SUBMISSION, doesn't it?
So get ready to stick your collective butts in the air and open wide. junior!

51 realwest  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:06:42pm

#35 Momzilla Thanks for the info. I'm just kinda surprised that he served two years (ditto) as a PFC (well, ok, I acheived Spec 4 rank, er, twice - blush-) and he turned out the way he did.
I served in a fully integrated army. Ate, slept, fought, um, smoked and drank with guys from every race and creed. I think it made me a better man. Made me truly appreciate people who are willing to and do work to get ahead; provide a better life for their kids. And race, religion, ethnicity doesn't even enter into it.
And I gotta tell youse'all, no matter how "liberal" Kennedy and Kerry like to think they are, they really don't like and are uncomfortable around those of us who work for a living. Who are willing to give of ourselves to our community to create a better place.
You know, if the Pali's/Arabs understand that, there'd be hope for peace without bloodshed. If.

52 JimmytheClaw  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:08:14pm

#49 Gordon 4/26/2004 08:03PM PST

YAWN

at least reza is more entertaining


damm now that i reformatted i lost a years worth of saved pages and links

now drink i say drink

/off my psych meds today

53 armytramp  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:09:34pm

#45

LOL! I keep getting the name mixed up with Reva, which is the first name of a little old lady bookplate designer. I keep picturing her in her glasses, with her grey mop of hair at the computer typing "YOUR CHILDREN WILL ALL BE MUSLIMS!" and the image is too darned funny, especially when I think of her in a little flowered print shirt.

Which is exactly how I am going to think of REZA from now on. In a little flowered shirt, only with hearts added, becuase he practices the Religion of Peace.

Oh Reza, if only he would turn away from those beautiful dark eyed boys!!! Beardless, they are, too! Possibly even jailbait!

Turn away! Turn away! Think of real girls instead! Think of girls, period! Run away with me and let me show you what a cool place the West can be!

Can we not compromise and make our children, I dunno Wiccan or something? That would be cool. Then they could go about skyclad, free and unafraid!

That would be one way to bring about world peace, I am so sure.

If he doesn't stop thinking of heaven and dark eyed boys, he's not going to be having any Muslim chldren at all.

54 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:09:51pm

Over at Iraqi blogger Alaa's site The Mesopotamian a commenter referenced this April 14th article in the U.K. paper The Independent (a liberal paper):

The Human Rights Centre (HRC) in Kadhimiya has been set up by Iraqis themselves from the ashes of Baathism. They have been going methodically through the massive - and previously unexplored - archives left by the regime, which document every killing in cold bureaucracy-speak. The HRC have found that if the invasion had not happened, Saddam would have killed 70,000 people in the past year. Not sanctions: Saddam's tyranny alone. (emphasis added)

"Even once you factor in the war and everybody who has died since, it's not as many people as that," Sama explains. "So this war has indisputably saved lives over the past year. Saddam's victims might not have been appearing on your TV screens, but they would be just as dead."

More facts: the opinion polls. Some people understandably complain that Iraqis might not be speaking candidly to pollsters, because they are afraid and living under occupation. If you look at the usually very critical answers they give, that doesn't stand up. In the recent BBC poll (hardly a pro-war source), fewer than 10 per cent said they had confidence in the occupying forces, for example, and 41 per cent admitted they found the invasion humiliating. These are not the answers of a terrified people censoring themselves.

So we can trust the same polls when - among many legitimate criticisms of the coalition - they also find that 56 per cent of Iraqis say their lives are better than before the war. Only 15 per cent want the coalition troops to leave immediately. Remember that the "End the Occupation Now" campaigners have just 15 per cent of Iraqis on their side. The anti-war campaigners must confront the fact that most Iraqis feel their lives are better now. I was beginning to perk up as we went through these facts. Maybe we were not wrong after all.

The author details her cognitive dissonance about Iraq, and attempts to reconcile her heresy to her leftish comrades, so she has to wrap up with a ritual denunciation of Israel:

If this was Vietnam - a country alternately incinerated and poisoned by the Americans - I would want the troops out. If this was occupied Palestine - a country reduced to sub-Saharan poverty by a cruel and futile Israeli occupation - I would want the troops out. Iraq is not Vietnam and it is not Palestine. After my week of wobbling, I have come to the conclusion that the only decent course is to keep supporting the clear majority of Iraqis: against Saddam, against Sadr and against killing Sadr, and against immediate troop withdrawal. And we must back the Iraqis in the biggest demand of all: a transition to real, full Iraqi democracy - and fast.

Read the whole thing... despite her ignoring the contributions of Palestinian death-cult culture and official corruption to the "sub-Saharan poverty" of Arafatistan, this is a lefty who still has a few functioning brain cells.

I recommend her reading some Christopher Hitchens and there's maybe some hope for her eventual recovery.

55 SoCalJustice  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:10:27pm

(#49) Gordon asks:

Would he rather be still fighting the Cold War right now?


FWIW, I would.

(#14) Reza

And your grandkids will be working at 7-11, just like you. So what?

56 Bombarafat  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:14:31pm

Anyone seen this?
[Link: www.thejakartapost.com...]

Probably. This guy needs to stand infront of an Israelie bulldozer.

57 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:20:31pm

#56 Bombarafat

What's in it for American professors anyway (being an Islamist stooge)?

58 SoCalJustice  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:20:58pm

(#56) Bombarafat

Charles pointed him out to us last month:

Academic Fifth Column Watch

59 Jamie Irons  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:25:08pm

Gordon (#49) writes:


considering that VDH claims to be a historian.

Victor Davis Hanson is a distinguished historian and classicist. No doubt he is, unlike Gordon, fallible, and some of his statements about more recent history are less compelling than what he writes about Greek farmer/hoplites.

But Gordon, Gordon.. a little modesty, young man. VDH would eat you alive.

Jamie Irons

60 aaron's rantblog  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:25:49pm

Nice literary bitchslap by VDH

61 Kragar (proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:28:06pm
62 David  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:31:50pm

Gordon says:

Does Hanson really think that the U.S., Canada, Australia, and South Africa sank into misery once they freed themselves of the British yoke? That Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya and other currently miserable African nations were not miserable places for all but the colonial elite?

Actually, I think one can divide British ex-colonies into two groups:

1. Those that were ruthlessly colonised before the mid-19th Century - OZ, NZ, Canada, South Africa, bits of Asia etc.

2. Those colonised later in the 19th Century or in the 20th Century - and then summarily abandoned in the 40s, 50s and 60s, before proper democratic infrastructure had been developed locally - mainly huge slabs of Africa and Arabia.

The former generally turned out OK. The latter are technically described as shit-holes. The point about the sub-saharan African colonies is, in most cases, that they have, for the most part, gone backwards economically and socially since de-colonisation [and imagine what Arabia would be like without oil]; whilst India, Australia, Canada, and the like have, broadly speaking, succeeded.

One theory is that the roots of the problem lie in the British getting PC in the 20th Century. Thus the Brits could stamp out the suttee in India, but not "honour killing" in Transjordan. They lacked the will to impose the institutions that they imposed in Canada and India, handed Arabia over to local Emirs; de-colonised Africa at a lightning pace and made a mess of the whole enterprise.

63 Q  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:33:18pm

SCJ (#55):

FWIW, I would.

Yeah, whatever sense supporting mujahideen savages (and their Saudi/Pakistani patrons) against Moscow might have made at the time, no sensible person would deny now that that policy did come back to bite us in the ass.

As for Kosovo: a shameful and idiotic, PC- and cheap narcissism driven charade. Net result: a European province given over to "a few Islamic fundamentalists" Muslim heroin (and Al-Qaida-connected) mafia. Nice.

64 Globular Custard  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:33:19pm

The whole term "empire" is no longer meaningful. America is a bunch of nice people who want nice people to trade with, who do no want to be attacked, and who want all people to promote their culture under the banner of freedom and democracy.

Empire? Whatever. I lose interest in people who trade in these terms.

65 Exdamyankee  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:44:24pm

RE: #14 Reza

My grandchildren, should they be fighting in the service of the United States or of Eretz Yisrael will most certainly oppose what is left of your malignant society, in the name of God and of human decency.

You are free to worship whom and what you will in your own land, but when you bring the battle to us, you will reap nothing but annihilation.

Crumbling civilization? Your jihad is to us as flies on a bull. Annoying? Yes. Are your bites painful? Yes! But you have as much chance of destroying the bull as you have of reordering the stars in the heavens.

We may bleed when we are cut, and we may die like all men--but when roused as a nation there is no force on earth that can withstand us, and as God Almighty is my witness, your Allah will not spare you from discovering the the true and just wrath of the United States of America.

...It's posts like this that just make me want to go and buy a couple extra cases of 7.62 x 39.

66 PostalWorker  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:45:11pm

#39 perry

Well stated! And DITTO!

67 Gordon  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:46:57pm

#55 SoCalJustice: Either you are very young or you are very foolish. The Islamic radicals, for all their use of suicide bombers and box cutters, are no more than the anarchist nut-balls of the late 19th century. They have no place in the world truly safe to hide in any more, now that they turned the spotlight on themselves.

Wait until you're an old man and we have a bi-polar world again, only this time the U.S. and China. You'll look back at these times as the "easy years."

68 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:49:01pm

gordo the ignorant. Charles won't ban you because you are like a luvable puppy that shits all over the den.

Oh, and Reza, you really are a bitch. If I ever catch you without your hijab, I will bitch-slap you until you beg allah (PBUH) for forgiveness.

Got it?

69 Gordon  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:51:58pm

#59 Jamie Irons: Victor Davis Hanson is indeed an historian par excellance of the ancient Greeks - although a recent New Yorker article questioned his relation of the Pelopponesian War to modern events. And he has a pretty good grasp of modern world politics as well at times. But not this time. And when he completely veers off the historic path, as he did with Mexifornia, the result is drivel.

70 Gordon  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:53:16pm

#68: You are typical of the flaming imbecility which too often passes for "debate" on this site.

71 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:54:12pm

Fuck you Gordon, you fag.

Go whine in the arms of your gay lover.

72 Q  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:54:13pm

rgbdJ (#68):

until you beg allah (PBUH) for forgiveness.

I believe it's Allah (SWT: sucks wet twat). PBUH (pus be upon him) is for the propheeet.

73 gymnast  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:54:13pm

Fergeson could benefit from hanging around a better class of American. Seems he has found all of the Gordons.

74 evariste  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:54:44pm
We would have been promoting "liberal values" by dropping nuclear weapons on China? That's what Douglas McArthur wanted to do instead of fight a limited ground war.

Damn, I like MacArthur even better now!

75 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:56:19pm

#67 Gordon

They have no place in the world truly safe to hide in any more, now that they turned the spotlight on themselves.

Uhm, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Palestinian territories, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, the Sudan... European ghettos - and under cover in the entire western world.

As for being mere anarchists, the upper class of Islamic societies (and to some extent the government of Islamic countries) supplies money and weapons.

There's so much support for Jihad against the west (not new support, but permantant support) - there's so much support that we can expect Islamist terrorists to get their hands on WMDs any day now.

You're the one who's ignorant Gordon. You think you can understand the situation without studying the middle east - without finding out what people believe and who's lying.

76 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:58:39pm

You know I left out lots of countries where Islamist can hide!

77 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:59:35pm

evariste, what do you think of #44?

78 PostalWorker  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 6:59:58pm

#49 gordon

"We would have been promoting "liberal values" by dropping nuclear weapons on China? That's what Douglas McArthur wanted to do instead of fight a limited ground war."

The context of the Korean war has no relevace moraly or historically to the context of the present situation in the Middle East.

McArthur had seen the effectiveness of the bomb, and didn't really know it's drawbacks. He was thinking of his men and not the enemy's safety. We had the only ones then and could have gotten away with it. Saner heads overruled him.

What the f*ck does that have to do with the price of sheep dip in Iraq, or anything in Iraq or the greater Middle East? Only gordon knows.

79 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:07:38pm

BTW,

I just dropped the gaybomb on Gordon because he is so

fey

Don't get me wrong, I have relatives who are gay, and I love every single one of them, for who they are.

I am using the classical anachronistic definition of gay, as in

peculiarly unusual, not right in a way that isn't easily described. (my personal definition) Not belonging to the usual caste

FOAD. I'm tired of gordo, I'm tired of green brigades that want to kill Italians.

Frankly, I'm just tired of all the shit these people inject into my life. If they think I'm going to just sit and take it, they are seriously mistaken.

80 SoCalJustice  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:07:46pm

(#67) Gordon writes:

#55 SoCalJustice: Either you are very young or you are very foolish. The Islamic radicals, for all their use of suicide bombers and box cutters, are no more than the anarchist nut-balls of the late 19th century. They have no place in the world truly safe to hide in any more, now that they turned the spotlight on themselves.

Well, I'm not "very young," so I'm afraid that leaves us with the other alternative. And you're entitled to your opinion.

But Gordon, even though the Cold War is over, we are still living under a M.A.D. regime with the Russians - in a nuclear sense, we're in a bipolar (and even multipolar world). The Russians have altered their ambitions and cut their losses, but they still have more than enough firepower to melt us. China's ascendency will not change that.

And neither China nor Russia have been known to fly planes into buildings.

If China becomes the force many believe it will, it will likely be run by semi-pragmatic dictators - like now - who don't want Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong to become radioactive wastelands.

Jihadis have no such compunctions.

I fear one Iranian bomb much more than a thousand Chinese ones.


Wait until you're an old man and we have a bi-polar world again, only this time the U.S. and China. You'll look back at these times as the "easy years."

Doubtful. These are not easy times, if one lives in New York, D.C., Madrid, Riyadh, Casablanca, Jerusalem, Istanbul, Jakarata, Bali, etc...

81 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:08:32pm

Hello! [echo echo]

82 Q  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:10:55pm

rgbdJ (#79):

I am using the classical anachronistic definition of gay, as in

peculiarly unusual, not right in a way that isn't easily described.

You must be thinking of "queer".

83 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:12:34pm

#82 Q

You make me think of "that boy ain't right."

84 abc  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:12:45pm

49 gordon

What you and your freak-show, former soviets don't quite grasp, is that you lost.

You were wrong and you continue to be wrong.

The cold war was a mistake from the American perspective, and you should have been incinerated. Because your echo is still fowling up the world in a menacing way.

But menace is all you're good for or were ever good for.

You're a thug. And your life amounts to nothing. Your country is a third world shit hole outside of Moscow, and you know it.

85 Q  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:15:46pm

JS (#83):

Me?

86 zulubaby  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:16:00pm

I'm so sick of Gordon.

87 PostalWorker  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:18:05pm

Gordon is a baiter. He's so good at it he's become a master baiter.

88 Gordon  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:19:45pm

#86 Zulubaby: Read my post #49 again, and perhaps you will learn something.

Read SoCalJustice's thoughtful replies, and maybe you will learn something from him too.

Or you could follow the Thom-Really Grumpy Big Dog Johnson approach, along with the rest of the LGF followers.

89 abc  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:21:49pm

If it smells like a stupid fucking soviet,
it probably is a stupid fucking soviet.

90 gymnast  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:21:50pm

#86, zulubaby. Think positive, be amused at the thought of Gordon, the one legged man, who is not smart enough to refrain from starting an ass kicking contest while wearing a rollerskate.

91 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:24:22pm

#85 Q

Context, man, context.

Your definition of "queer" reminds me of...

92 Julia the Horrible  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:25:28pm

NEA Finally Openly Parades Its Colors

The NEA, which we always knew was a PAC (political action committee) and not really an association of small town edumacators, has finally come out of the closet in favor of abortion rights.

So, here is what Johnny's teacher believes in. I bet Johnny's teacher doesn't even know this is what she believes in.

Perhaps someone should tell Johnny's teacher what she believes in.

/sarcasm off

93 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:27:49pm

#88 Gordon 4/26/2004 09:19PM PST

#86 Zulubaby: Read my post #49 again, and perhaps you will learn something.

She'll learn whether intense bordom can be fatal?

94 Julia the Horrible  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:32:31pm

Also, for those in Virginia, Daniel Pipes will be speaking at VCU in Richmond tomorrow night at 7 pm at the Student Commons Theater on “The U.S., Israel, and the Politics of Peace"

Map to VCU Student Commons Theater

See you there.

95 Momzilla  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:39:56pm

#51 Realwest - I can't give you a reference, but my husband says that he thinks he remembers that Ted was forced to join the military by his dad to straighten him out after he was expelled from Harvard for cheating.

96 gymnast  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:44:01pm

#92, Julia. "Children who learn to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society which is coming, where everyone is interdependent"-John Dewey (who was made honerary President of the NEA in 1932). God help our children for surely the members of the NEA wont.

97 Tasty Beverage  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:46:18pm

#90 gymnast

starting an ass kicking contest while wearing a rollerskate.

LOL

You're an LGF treasure, gymnast.

98 SoCalJustice  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:46:18pm

Gordon:

Do you know any Chinese people who think like this:

Jordan Airs al-Qaida Suspects' Confessions

AMMAN, Jordan - Al-Qaida plotted bomb and poison gas attacks against the U.S. Embassy and other targets in Jordan, suspects confessed in a videotape that aired Monday on Jordanian state television. A commentator said the plotters hoped to kill 80,000 people.

One of the alleged conspirators, Azmi al-Jayousi, said he was acting on the orders of Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian wanted by the United States for allegedly organizing terrorists to fight U.S. troops in Iraq on behalf of al-Qaida. U.S. officials have offered a $10 million reward for his capture.

Al-Jayousi, identified as the head of a Jordanian terror cell, said he met al-Zarqawi in neighboring Iraq to plan the attacks.

The 20-minute taped program contained what were described as confessions by the suspects, who were arrested a month ago. Officials said four terror suspects believed linked to the conspiracy died in a shootout with police in Amman last week.

A commentator on the tape, who wasn't further identified, said the plotters targeted Jordan's secret service, its prime minister's office and the U.S. Embassy.

"At least 80,000 people would have been killed," the commentator said. Al-Zarqawi "is the terrorist" who plotted this operation."

But Jordanians are "moderates," right?

99 Q  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:50:19pm

SCJ (#98):

To be fair to the truth, a lot of Chinese did laugh for joy at our deaths.

100 SoCalJustice  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 7:57:58pm

(#99) Q

At 9-11? I hadn't heard, but wouldn't be surprised. There's a billion people there.

I mean, there were some Americans who weren't all too broken up by 9-11 either.

But there's also a lot of Chinese, especially from Naning and the Canton Province, that are eternally greatful for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.


OT

Peruvians have a Palestinian moment:

Mayor of Peruvian Town Killed by Rioters

LIMA, Peru - Rioting highland Indians demanding the resignation of their mayor broke into his house Monday, dragged him into the street and beat him to death, officials said.

Hours later, a mob of about 1,000 in Ilave, 565 miles southeast of Lima near Lake Titicaca, attacked a police station with molotov cocktails, officials and news reports said.

The mob killed Mayor Cirlo Fernando Robles after he vowed not to step down, an Interior Ministry spokesman told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. The mob also beat up three municipal officials.

101 zulubaby  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:00:22pm
Read my post #49 again, and perhaps you will learn something.

Yeah, right.

102 Globular Cluster  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:08:12pm

Gordon, what do you believe in? Itemize your views and list them. Curious people want to know...

103 Gordon  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:11:50pm

#102 Globular Cluster: My beliefs are too complex and nuanced to put into a simple list.

As yours should be, but (if they're like a lot of those of people here) probably aren't.

104 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:11:55pm

#96
I'm sure Dewey was being ironic.

105 Globular Mustard  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:13:56pm
My beliefs are too complex and nuanced to put into a simple list.


Bells ringing. Anyway, I'm talking about political platforms. "I think we should do X, Y, Z..."

106 PDM  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:14:12pm

#103 Gordon,

Why are you here?

107 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:14:26pm

#103 Gordon

Thank god we've been spared.

108 Gordon  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:16:09pm

#98 SoCalJustice: No, Chinese people don't think like this. That's why they will be a greater danger to us in the long run. I'll admit that a few of these jokers may actually succeed in some way in carrying out their evil plans, and more Westerners will die. But most will get caught, or killed, and those who would follow them will be dissuaded from doing so by their own rational self-interest, a condition which I assert infects even most Muslims. The governments that support them and try to get weapons of mass destruction are so incompetent in the ways of the modern world that they will probably blow themselves up before they get to us.

I'm not saying radical Islam is not a threat. The weapons of the 21st century make them much more of a threat than late 19th century anarchists. But the mentality is the same, and thorough ruthless police work, plus flushing them out of their Afghan and Pakistani (and even Saudi and Egyptian and Iranian) nests will finish them off.

And then we can enter into a bipolar world again, this time with the Chinese.

109 Emperor Norton  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:17:07pm

Nuanced?

He didn't really write that, did he?

110 Gordon  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:17:43pm

#106 PDM: to enlighten you, to argue with you, to expose the falsity and sillliness of some of your beliefs, and to prove to any innocent bystanders reading this blog that not everyone on it is nuts.

111 Globular  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:17:54pm

BTW Gordon,

I have at times stated some fairly "nuanced" analyses of events, situations, ideas, etc.

Just curious, if you were the president, and you had a supportive congress, what policies would you push?

112 Gordon  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:19:40pm

When I get all the information that the President has available to him, I will tell you.

113 Emperor Norton  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:21:54pm
When I get all the information that the President has available to him, I will tell you.

In other words, you have no clue. You just like talking down to your perceived inferiors.

114 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:21:55pm

#108 Gordon

The governments that support them and try to get weapons of mass destruction are so incompetent in the ways of the modern world that they will probably blow themselves up before they get to us.

More likely it will be "sucide by cop"

They'll kill thousands of Americans and next time we won't have the patience to liberate them - we'll just blow them off the planet.

As for China - China does just fine competing on an economic playing field - why should they use other rules?

115 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:23:18pm

#113 Emperor Norton

Bingo! You broke the code!

116 zulubaby  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:23:37pm
... and to prove to any innocent bystanders reading this blog that not everyone on it is nuts.

I didn't realize Gordon cared about LGF so much. The way he insults Charles, I would never have guessed.

117 Globular  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:28:20pm
He didn't really write that, did he?

He did.

Gordon:

My views are "complex and nuanced".

April, 2004

118 Globular Custard  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:31:34pm
In other words, you have no clue. You just like talking down to your perceived inferiors.

Indeed, when I debate a political issue, at the bottom of my psychology are various basic questions. For example,

"If I were president I would do this..."

"I think this thing is right/wrong for society because of XYZ..."

119 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:32:34pm

How come no one is interested in the formidable David Warren's opinion that by welcoming the UN's Brahimi, the US is giving up on democracy in the middle east (see #44 for the link and quote)?

It's not a shocking or new idea that nothing less than heavy suppression of Islam is necessary to creating democracy in an Muslim nation. That's what Ataturk did in Turkey.

But if we give up on the concept of reforming the middle east, we're left with no strategy short of bombing the shit out of everyone. And the people of the middle east will no longer have the option of siding with us...

Come on people, give Warren's article some thought and talk!

120 SoCalJustice  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:33:48pm

(#108) Gordon

But the mentality is the same, and thorough ruthless police work, plus flushing them out of their Afghan and Pakistani (and even Saudi and Egyptian and Iranian) nests will finish them off.

Well, ignoring the fact that what you would consider a "nest" in Iran is actually the entire government itself, the two most underreported important events this year have been the two attempts on Pervez Musharraf's life.

There are more fundamentalists than secularists in Pakistan. And I wonder if they still consider India their chief enemy.

And even with last week's Riyadh bomb, which was several months after the last one (remember, the one Saudi spinners dubbed "their own 9-11"), they still preach and export hatred of America and the West and react to bombs in their city with statements like "There’s not one American in this entire area."

Bandar and Faisal can dance on Charlie Rose and Tim Russert all they want. They're in full cover their asses mode, even releasing a story about helping us with base support during the Iraq campaign - which means they will likely get hit again by their own home grown jihadis.

Having said that, I'm not saying China is not a threat. We had a lot of quiet years until we had the spy plane incident. And we coddle them for our own economic reasons, which could amount to feeding the quiet crocodile, and that could end up hurting us down the road.

But as the average Chinese citizen gets richer, they also have more to lose.

Jihadis have nothing to lose and everything to gain by exploding themselves and others - which is exactly what they do.

121 PDM  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:36:56pm

#110 Gordon,

to enlighten you, to argue with you, to expose the falsity and sillliness of some of your beliefs, and to prove to any innocent bystanders reading this blog that not everyone on it is nuts.

I don't need your brand of "enlightenment." I wouldn't waste my time arguing with you. You really know nothing about my beliefs, nor do I care to share them with you. And, since most posters here can prove that they are not nuts, your services are no longer required.

Could you go away now?

(BTW you put 3 L's in silliness. Freudian slip?)

122 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:44:16pm

Oh come on people. When for three years, David Warren says the Bush administration is doing the right thing in the middle east then everyone loves him and he's the shit. But as soon as he says, Bush is throwing in the towel - it's over - then he's benieth notice? This isn't even worth discussing? Are we so close to an election that all new information has to be dismissed and thrown in the denial bucket?

Hello! [echo echo]

123 MH  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:49:11pm
How come no one is interested in the formidable David Warren's opinion that by welcoming the UN's Brahimi, the US is giving up on democracy in the middle east (see #44 for the link and quote)?

#119 Joshua Scholar --

Beats me.

I think David Warren, fine and excellent writer though he is, tends to swing back and forth between opposite moods -- last week, he was crowing that Pres. Bush and the American people had decided on a "No More Mr. Nice Guy" course of action.

This week, he sees the sky falling.

124 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:49:37pm

Jesus, do I have to be a troll to get any notice around here?

Ok, Islam will bury you!

Now respond to #44/119/122 damn it!

125 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:52:26pm

#123 MH

I think David Warren, fine and excellent writer though he is, tends to swing back and forth between opposite moods -- last week, he was crowing that Pres. Bush and the American people had decided on a "No More Mr. Nice Guy" course of action.

This week, he sees the sky falling.

I think he isn't contradicting himself at all.

He's saying we're giving up on reform (Kerry never supported reform), but that public opinion is getting tougher. Ie we'll be ready to start killing people next time anyone pushes us.

126 MH  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:56:29pm

The two latest essays by David Warren really merit a separate thread on LGF, I believe.

News out of Iraq is pretty grim currently. But why should the U.S. throw in the towel at this point long before we have used every last arrow in our quiver?

Re Brahimi. The man is repulsive in the extreme. I listened to him being interviewed on NPR's Morning Edition (needless to say, the fawning interviewer fed him only softball questions; it was easy to imagine Brahimi's disbelief that he was getting such a free ride.)

NPR = National Palestinian Radio

127 Sir Rayra  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:56:40pm
#51 realwest 4/26/2004 08:06PM PST
...I served in a fully integrated army. Ate, slept, fought, um, smoked and drank with guys from every race and creed. I think it made me a better man. Made me truly appreciate people who are willing to and do work to get ahead; provide a better life for their kids. And race, religion, ethnicity doesn't even enter into it.

Same here, in the Marines. Folks brought their biases into the Service, but the lesson was driven home for some - Marines come in only one color - Green. Those that stubbornly clung to their prejudices usually got their faces rubbed in it, just as you would potty-train a puppy. They would be paired with that which they hated. Most learned.
With that issue out of the way (and all the 'enlightened' racism of the LLL with it), folks got on with the business at hand. It all became about individual worth and ability. A true Meritocracy.
It's one of key facets of my military service that I miss.

128 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:56:58pm

Hell, Daniel Pipes is saying the same sort of thing as David Warren, now.

This deserves some notice.

129 MH  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:59:26pm

# 128 Joshua Scholar --

Do you have a link to Daniel Pipes?

130 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 8:59:32pm

#126 MH 4/26/2004 10:56PM PST

The two latest essays by David Warren really merit a separate thread on LGF, I believe.

I emailed Charles with that suggestion yesterday.

131 Sir Rayra  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 9:00:00pm

OT - lol, CNN has a link with a pic of a bit of lakeshore where our ZOG vacation dacha is. Funny part was, I recognized it before reading the caption.

132 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 9:06:06pm

#129 MH

# 128 Joshua Scholar --

Do you have a link to Daniel Pipes?

History shows Islam, democracy unlikely to mix in Iraq

133 Sir Rayra  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 9:08:05pm
#57 Joshua Scholar 4/26/2004 08:20PM PST
What's in it for American professors anyway (being an Islamist stooge)?

Same thing that's ALWAYS been in it for them - (self-)aggrandizement and empty head nods from their groupthink peers.

134 MH  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 9:17:14pm

JS, Thank you for the link.

Everything in the Daniel Pipes article made a great deal of sense -- until the penultimate paragraph.

I therefore counsel the occupying forces quickly to leave Iraqi cities and then, when feasible, to leave Iraq as a whole. They should seek out what I have been calling for since a year ago: a democratically minded Iraqi strongman, someone who will work with the coalition forces, provide decent government, and move eventually toward a more open political system.

"a democratically minded Iraqi strongman"? What is that supposed to mean? Pipes seems to be suggesting a figurehead ruler who does the bidding of the U.S.

But that only brings us back to the dilemma that he outlined so astutely, namely, that Muslims will not accept being ruled by non-Muslims. Whether directly or by proxy.

It almost seems as if we are back at square one. Yes, they urgently need a Kemal Pasha in Iraq. But Ataturk was one of their own (and even he had to overcome massive resistance).

So, what do we do next?

135 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 9:23:43pm
136 Bombarafat  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 9:30:49pm

#57 Joshuascholar
I wrote him an email with the usual: go get "corried"
and he responds telling me he reported my "threat" to the FBI
to which I of course tell him "I'll be waiting for a letter of sympathy (to my idea) from the bureau"
anyways, you asked what does he have to gain?
My only guess is the enjoyment he gets from being able to rub elbows with others of the same mindset. Since his email signatures originate in the Indonesian government.

137 Joshua Scholar  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 9:43:02pm

#134 MH

It sounds like Pipes is fantasizing that we can resurrect Ataturk from the grave!

!

Speaking of comic book plots, have you seen Hell Boy?

138 DarthMaulrulesok  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 10:26:27pm

Re. no. 44, Joshua Scholar:

It's an interesting article, which points out a problem that existed well before Operation Iraqi Freedom began. How do we build a democracy in a country with no history of rule by consent of the governed, no separation of church and state, no tradition of limits on the power of the ruler (ie, no Magna Carta), a history of ethnic and religious hatred AND with hostile neighbors who have a vested interest in democracy NOT succeeding.

There are no easy answers. IF, as a recent article in debkafile indicates, the US is no longer confident the provisional authority can make a transition to a successful caretaker government in accordance with the new constitution they they have been debating, then the only alternative is some sort of authoritarian rule. For religious and cultural reasons, we cannot simply appoint Mr. Bremmer as pasha of Baghdad in the name of George II, (tempting though the idea might be).

Debkafile thinks we have found the next best thing, a local Iraqi who will make a suitable king in all but name, and play the role of Kemal Attaturk for Iraq. This might indeed be for the best. In fact, an arguement could be made that instead of trying to create a federated constitution in Iraq, we should be trying to create a constitutional monarchy, which is what Iraq had before the coup which brought the Baathists to power.

I don't put too much stock in any role the UN might play. I think President Bush is inviting them back in to make Tony Blair and other allies happy, but the UN will not play a meaningful role. After all, to paraphrase Stalin: " how many divisions does the UN have?"

We may not be able to bring democracy to the Middle East overnight. However, we can provide for a new government in Iraq that will gradually lead to full democracy while providing an example of modernization for the entire Muslim world. Iraq, (IF WE MAINTAIN THE WILL TO WIN AND WIN) will eventually be a country where there is no torture, property rights are respected, the concept of individual human worth is kept, children learn math and science in addtion to the Koran, the police and public officials are honest, newspapers tell the truth (OK, maybe not that one, after all we can't even do that here), and above all, government is seen and behaves as the servant of the people, not their master.

For everyone's sakes, including no. 14, reza, let us hope and pray we succeed in this. Because the alternative is truly horrible. Reza, you have no conception at all of who we are and what we are capable of. For your sake, do not provoke us.

139 Scipio Americanus  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 11:29:50pm

Please Read the Full Review

If you read the full review on the post, VDH is overall quite happy with Niall Ferguson, who is one of our greatest proponents, if you knew anything about him.

I had bried dialogue with the gentleman last fall and he truly is a brilliant scholar. While certainly he has things that are left to be desired in his assessments, I cannot think of anyone with whom I entirely agree with 100 percent on everything.

Read the full review and, by God, give Dr. Ferguson some credit because he is really awesome and definitely knows his stuff.

If you want to really make any sort of remotely accurate assessment, don't do it from an excerpt from a book review ... read Dr. Ferguson's book.

Ferguson's ideas about being able to recruit large swaths of the poor and uneducated for a vast imperial army is right on the mark. While they wouldn't have the same status as our boys do right now, who says they wouldn't make damn good front line troops?
Every Marine is a rifleman, not a Harrier Pilot or SAM Technician ... and I think Ferguson's point is just that the potential is there if we so desired it.

Anyway, read up further on Ferguson and I think most of you will find that he's one of the most staunchly pro-American scholars on the other side of the lake (he is a good Brit and teaches at Oxford).

140 Scipio Americanus  Mon, Apr 26, 2004 11:43:11pm

I will actually be meeting Dr. Pipes tomorrow and will have dinner with him (I can hardly believe it myself) because my student group, Supporters of a Safe Israel at VCU is bringing him to speak here on campus tomorrow night.

You bet I'm going to ask him about his stuff about pulling out of Iraq ... because I think that's the last thing we need to do. There's no way we can even think about getting an "strongman" of sorts who is amenable to "westernization" (as Bernard Lewis would put it) without some sort of military backing, right? And NATURALLY, if we're the ones backing them up, then they are the puppets of the infidel.

This seems to be a circular problem, folks. I would stay the course in Iraq ... I think what we have now will come to pass if we BEAT THEM INTO FUCKING SUBMISSION.

I don't think this means destroying their cities. But we do have to recognize that westernization is, in fact, blossoming in Iraq (despite the things we hear). Consider the schools, internet cafes, G-Unit blasting on the Baghdad streetcorners, cell phone companies ... Just because history isn't on our side it doesn't mean we can't do it. I mean, hell, look at Afghanistan, the historical grave of 2 mighty imperial armies... why wouldn't we be the third? OUR MISSION.

We stay the course, like the tenacious bastards that we can be, then we'll achieve victory.

Remember me, I'll be famous someday :o)

141 Joshua Scholar  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 12:00:52am

A problem that Pipes pointed out in an earlier article is the "Islam will be a source of law" clause in the (is it provisional?) constitution.

What's going to happen when some clerics decide that a law is unislamic? That's when the rubber meets the road. If clerics have veto power, then IMHO westernization is doomed. The only bright spot is that failure may come slowly and the bar will be raised slightly.

But total failure may come quickly. Clerics like Sadr realize that the concepts being entertained weaken their power - just by being talked about. Remember Sadr didn't even wait until July - he tried to start a civil war now, just like the Al Qa'eda monsters. They figure they can't afford to give the sheep a moment to think - or they might not stay sheep.

I think Iraqis want democracy, but they also don't want to see their clerics suppressed. But I think they have to choose, happy clerics that aren't looking over their shoulder all the time, or democracy!

142 Ben  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 12:47:16am

#44 Joshua Scholar writes 'This leaves me with a question. What now? If we can't bring democracy to the middle east, is there any way to avoid a massive war when middle eastern regimes/upper classes finally manage to funnel WMDs to the terrorists?'

We cannot entirely immunize ourselves from the threat of terrorists using WMDs. Even if we annihilated the Muslim world, a prospect some of the more gung-ho posters to this weblog seem to salivate over, we couldn't be sure to stop homegrown nutjobs, like McVeigh or that American scientist who was posting anthrax around, using WMD.

But we can certainly reduce the risks of Muslim fanatics using WMD, without casting aside 'Western' values:

(1) Operation Iraqi Freedom has shown up the limitations of our intelligence, but espionage and satellite reconaissance still seem the only way of tracking the WMD blackmarket, cutting off its financial support, and discovering the construction of missile launch sites, bioweapons labs, etc. The later are better tackled with targeted attacks than with 'massive war'.

(2) Stocking up on vaccines is key to limiting the effectiveness of biological attack. 'Star Wars' is worth considering, though it risks kickstarting a new arms race, as well as being ineffective against biological or chemical attacks.

(3) A satisfactory peace between Israel and Palestine must be a priority, since that remains the key Muslim grievance against the West and an obstacle to their condemnation of terrorists.

(3) We need to launch an aggressive counter-propaganda campaign against the Arab media. Not one that attempts to push an obviously biased pro-Western line or to attack Islam (because that would be counter-productive), but one which promotes realpolitik and challenges the myths of the Arab media (especially their belief in a Jewish Conspiracy). Our Middle Eastern academics (even Islamist stooges, as you called them) might be able to help with this. Perhaps the best way to do this would be to fund private schools in Islamic countries to draw kids from fundamentalist indoctrination into education. Teach them religious toleration, literacy, numeracy, textual and philosophic criticism, science. (This would be expensive, but probably not as expensive as 'massive war'.)

(4) Increase aid but bypass the dictators, NGOs, and international organizations to provide more direct and visible aid (hospitals, schools, etc.) to the impoverished areas of the Muslim world. Using intermediate organizations anonymizes Western aid, lends itself to embezzlement and abuse, and risks helping repulsive regimes like that of Uzbeckistan.

PS People on this weblog often seem to object to criticism of Western imperialism: how long should we feel guilty, they say. But notice #2 doesn't object to a revisionist attempt to represent it as a good thing. This suggests it is not the really persistence of guilt that they object to, but the idea that Western imperialism was wrong at all. No-one on this board objects to feeling pride in Western historical achievements. Are their attacks on 'left-wing' historiography fundamentally deceptive and one-sided?

143 levi from queens  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 1:36:21am

Small point-- the American economy did fall into a deep funk for 20 years after the revolution. As most people were substistence farmers and as prior to the revolution, America was the most prosperous country on earth, it didn't have the impact of recessions in a more urbanized time.

Democracies have been destroyed whenever they have tolerated political murder--think Weimar or the October Revolution. The current activity in Iraq going after Sadr is just to make it clear that one can no longer murder one's way to the top in Iraq. Iraq has not always had a tradition of thuggery.

144 MH  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 2:18:38am

# 140 Scipio --

And NATURALLY, if we're the ones backing them up, then they are the puppets of the infidel. This seems to be a circular problem, folks.

My point exactly!

When you talk to Dr. Pipes, insist that he address this conundrum! Mere hand-waving ("democratically minded strongman") isn't going to do it at this point.

Also, please note his demeanor as he answers your question. Does he appear sanguine and confident? Are his shoulders sagging, like someone who knows defeat is inevitable? Or is he grimly steeling himself for a country-wide imposition of our will against all resistance, aware that the toll in blood will be immense -- but forging on regardless?

# 142 Ben --

You make good points but also exhibit some dangerous naivete in my opinion.

(1) Operation Iraqi Freedom has ...

O.K.


(2) Stocking up on vaccines ...

O.K.

(3) A satisfactory peace between Israel and Palestine must be a priority, since that remains the key Muslim grievance against the West and an obstacle to their condemnation of terrorists.

I'm very sorry to be so rude but where have you been? The Muslims, in particular the Arabs, DO NOT WANT a "satisfactory peace between Israel and Palestine", they WANT NO ISRAEL. Instead of growing used to its existence, they have become emboldened and more bitter and angry than ever. Their leaders, from the most rabid Islamist imam all the way to slick, urbane technocrats like Brahimi, are doing everything they can to make its continued existence impossible.
At this point, there appears to be no other option left than to CONFRONT THE RESISTANCE HEAD-ON AND CRAM ISRAEL DOWN THEIR THROATS EVEN IF THEY CROAK (sorry about the caps, I don't usually do this!)

(3) We need to launch an aggressive counter-propaganda campaign against the Arab media.

Yes, a very worthy goal. I am afraid it won't be enough. Not if for every modern school in which we ensure an enlightened curriculum, there are a thousand madrassas churning out little hateful monsters.

(4) Increase aid but bypass the dictators, NGOs, and international organizations

In the end we always come up against the hard, ugly face of an Islam that is irreconcilable with the existence of Israel and with our way of life.

I lost all moral inhibitions about beating this resistance out of them a long time ago. But that doesn't mean that it can be done! As Dr. Pipes notes in his article (linked to by Joshua Scholar), you can't beat even part of Islam out of the Muslim and still keep him alive!

A "circular problem", indeed.

145 bender  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 3:18:07am

someone above mentioned this in bold:

This leaves me with a question. What now? If we can't bring democracy to the middle east, is there any way to avoid a massive war when middle eastern regimes/upper classes finally manage to funnel WMDs to the terrorists?

I have an answer for you my friend. There will be a war - you CANNOT avoid it. Unfortunately war is not the worst evil on this planet - and it is not something you can assume will never happen. It is not something you can assume we should always work to avoid.

Infact - if you think about what will happen if your doomsday scenario takes place - one single strike against americal soil being the catalyst for the anhiliation of all nations that do not suddenly and forcefully eliminate their terrorists - and im talking about ALL of their terrorists within 48 hours - and do whatever the fuck we tell them to for a few years.

And put it in comparason to fighting an actual war NOW, on OUR terms, and not being a bunch idiots wandering around screaching about how war is terror, war never solves anything.. etc...

You can imagine which scenario will end in the loss of more American lives - but even if we look at it as a gross sum of total lost lives instead of just paying attention to the important ones in the equation (yes - American lives are more important to me than most others!) fighting the war NOW could potentially save millions.

146 Ben  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 4:35:43am

#144 MH

"I'm very sorry to be so rude". You're not being rude to me.

"The Muslims, in particular the Arabs, DO NOT WANT a "satisfactory peace between Israel and Palestine", they WANT NO ISRAEL."
Yep, that does seem to be what a lot of Muslims in Muslim states, including Palestine, want. It's a stated aim of the 1988 fundamentalist Hamas Covenant ([Link: www.yale.edu...] and of the nationalist Palestinian Liberation Organization charter of 1968 ([Link: www.yale.edu...] Although in 1996 the Palestinian National Council voted to revise the charter to recognize Israel's right to exist, as far as I understand the text remains unrevised.

But I think it's important that Israel represents a series of different grievances to Palestinians: a Jewish state that 'deserves' to be annihilated as such; 'theft' of their land; 'ethnic cleansing' of Palestinians; the denial of the 'right' of return; the 'occupation'; the 'murder' or 'mistreatment' of their friends and relatives by the Israeli armed forces; or even (to some) a state with whose existence they will reluctantly have to come to terms. Some of these grievances are totally unacceptable, such as any which demand that Jews be murdered. With others, compromise is possible. The 'right' of return has split Western left-wingers in twain. Allowing unconditional return might undermine Jewish security, but perhaps compensation could be arranged as a substitute.

There is a big difference between what people 'want', what people 'demand', and what people will ultimately settle for. This is an obvious lesson of the Northern Ireland Peace Process. Even if most Palestinians agreed with all the grievances I set out above, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't settle for compromise on some of them. Israeli public opinion is not monolithic; neither is Palestinian.

However, the Arab media and its racist myths play a major role in radicalizing the Palestinian public sphere from 'legitimate' grievances towards support of organizations that advocate the deliberate murder of non-combatants. That's one of the reasons I identified a counter-propaganda campaign as essential.

I realise some people here think that the vast majority of Muslims believe that they should make war to extend Muslim theocracy all over the globe. I've got severe doubts about the extent and depth of such feeling, but anyhow it's unlikely they'd start a general war against all unless the West decides to try and annihilate them. Realpolitik dictates that Muslim states cannot, just as realpolitik restrained rival ideologies of 'freedom' from hot conflict in the Cold War.

Realpolitik won't necessarily stop extremists like Al-Quaeda, of course. But it's vital to recognise that Western freedoms are as good a breeding ground for Islamo-totalitarian terrorism as Muslim states. I find that hard to understand; but then I find all religion hard to understand. We need to inculcate a greater respect for human life, both above the (disputable) claims of Heaven, and through the (better) decrees of Heaven, in both Western and Muslim states. Jews developed a largely humane religion out of the unpromising material of the Old Testament; many Muslims in the West live at peace with their neighbours; and I believe that, however repellant certain scriptural elements may be to Western opinion, there could one day be a tolerant Islam in the majority-Muslim states too. Current Muslim states show depressingly less tolerance than their medieval ancestors (e.g. in early medieval Spain), while current majority-Christian states are surprisingly more tolerant than their pogrom-, crusade-, and inquisition-loving predecessors of the middle ages.

147 power to do bad  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 4:38:11am

Hizbullah game show keeps hostility to Israel alive

What was the name of the Israeli town attacked by Fatah fighters resulting in the death of five Israelis? The four contestants thought deeply but only Bishara pressed his buzzer. "Al Manara," he said. "Correct," said the quizmaster.
148 Ben  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 4:39:54am

#145 Bender

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

If we ever did allow that sort of total contempt for innocent life enter our public discourse, no-one would be safe from paranoia.

149 Ben  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 4:53:22am

#144 MH

Sorry to add to my previous long post, but I meant to respond to this:

'Not if for every modern school in which we ensure an enlightened curriculum, there are a thousand madrassas churning out little hateful monsters.'

The way I'd try to counteract this would be three-fold.
(1) Make enough schools, so that no children have to go and be indoctrinated into the deliberate murder of non-combatants.
(2) Ensure that while the schools are enlightened, allow freedom of worship, and teach criticism, they accomodate some sort of Islam acceptable to both Palestinian parents and Western sponsors. Though I know some here will be very sceptical, I do think a compromise ought to be possible.
(3) Make sure schoolchildren at Western-funded schools end up with more skills. They would then be more employable. I suspect that most parents would choose their childrens' future over religious fundamentalism. (Not all, of course. There are parents in the US who homeschool their children in Nazi Racism, but no system's perfect.)

150 TalkinKamel  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 5:00:36am

#14 Reza

There is no such god as Allah, the great nothingness, the unmerciful, and Mohammed was not a prophet.

And the evil Great Nothing will never conquer us.

Gordon:

VDH is merely another pawn in my great scheme to conquer planet earth. My plots are most complex, and nuanced!

/Channeling Baldwin IV, the highly nuanced once-and-future king of Jerusalem.

151 Thom™  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 6:18:38am

Although Gor-don is a troll, I will say that at least he doesn't usually pee on threads devoted to dead soldiers or 9/11 like Lance (that boil) Stein.

152 Gordon  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 6:54:59am

#120 SoCalJustice

"There are more fundamentalists than secularists in Pakistan. And I wonder if they still consider India their chief enemy. "

No, the fundamentalists in Pakistan are noisier than the secularists (admittedly a problem throughout the Islamic world). Islamic fundamentalism has never gained a significant political foothold in Pakistan except when a military coup leader (in the 1980's Zia, now Musharraf) professed Islamic tendencies. Neither Bhutto's PPP (led by a woman!) or Sharif's party were Islamist, and they took the lion's share of votes in each democratic election Pakistan had.

153 Gordon  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 7:03:29am

#151 Thom: It's nice to be liked...:)

154 Thom™  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 7:09:05am

#153 Gor-don

Don't get ahead of yourself there, Skippy ... you're less objectionable than Lance in the same way that a zit is preferable to a carbuncle ...

155 MH  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 7:10:12am

Ben,

Thank you for your replies # 146 and # 149.

It's great that you still have the idealism and optimism that I find dwindling in myself.

May you be proven right, and I wrong.

156 Gordon  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 7:49:55am

#154 Thom: And I admit, you're not a Nazi. More like a Latin American caudillo.

157 Thom™  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 7:55:40am

Caudillo? Oh please!

And Francisco Franco is still dead.

158 Joshua Scholar  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 10:49:09am

#186 Ben

Although in 1996 the Palestinian National Council voted to revise the charter to recognize Israel's right to exist, as far as I understand the text remains unrevised.

The most believable version of that story that I've heard is that they actually voted to have a comittee examine the possibility of changing the charter, a ?western? journalist got the story wrong (which no doubt amused the PLO) and that Arafat eventually used that lie himself...

One thing consistant about Arafat for many years was that he'd lie to the western media and immediately make a speech in Arabic (or even start a TV campaign in Arabic) in order to make sure that Palestinians didn't think he meant what he said in English.

By now, everyone has got the message and he doesn't have to do that.

159 PDM  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 10:56:03am

#154 Thom™,

you're less objectionable than Lance in the same way that a zit is preferable to a carbuncle ...

LOL! But, the zit is here to "enlighten" us.

160 Globular Custard  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 10:57:52am

#140 Scipio Americanus

When Dr. Pipes published his piece suggesting we get out of Iraq, I wrote him suggesting that he take his Zoloft.

I offered a number of arguments, but of course he didn't publish my comment.

So give 'em hell!

161 Joshua Scholar  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 12:29:59pm

#146 Ben

Perhaps what Palestinians and Jihadis really want is the free ticket into heaven promised to them and their families if they kill Jews and infidels.

I sometimes get the impression that Palestinian negotiators seem to be demanding peace from Israel along with a guarantee that they can continue slaughtering Jews forever.

Jihad may be the real need. Killing Jews is their national sport and they won't give it up.

Reading Arab newspapers I wonder if violent Jihad is the only thing middle eastern society really wants.

Everyone participates in a small way, all the institutions support it, every writer calls for it and the upper classes even donate large sums of money for it... Probably the lower classes do too - through "muslim charities"

162 Ben  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 3:18:13pm

#161 Joshua Scholar

I'm less certain about what Palestinians 'really want' than you are, but more importantly I think you're failing to distinguish between what Palestinians 'want', what they 'need', and what they would ultimately accept. The last is definitely an unknown variable. The fact that groups who would like nothing better than to butcher the other have come to terms again and again in history (from Northern Ireland to Rwanda) gives me hope. I'm also probably more optimistic than you about our chances of changing what Palestinians want, and thus also what they would accept.

'Reading Arab newspapers I wonder if violent Jihad is the only thing middle eastern society really wants. ... Everyone participates in a small way'; yea, and most people in the West largely follow what their collective media tells them, and automatically cough up their taxes and 'patriotic' support. We're lucky: our media tends to have a closer relationship to reality, while the armies we fund tend to kill non-combatants contingently rather than deliberately. If we challenge and change the Palestinian media, we might well alter Palestinian desires and actions.

Notice I used the phrase 'collective media'. I recognize most people aren't sheep; they read obliquely/critically; they shop around for the real story (or the juiciest gossip). But ultimately most are dependent on the net aggregate of the media in their language. In Palestine, the net aggregate of the media seems to devoted to portraying the Jews as fit only for ethnic cleansing. However much this dovetails with the interpretation of certain hadiths, it originates in an importation of early twentieth-century European anti-semitism (the Protocols were translated into Arabic in 1924), it is a betrayal of a Muslim history of relative toleration for diaspora Jews, and I believe it could be reversed. It's certainly worth a try.

163 Joshua Scholar  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 4:36:45pm

Actually I was talking about Arabs/Arabic speaking people in the middle east, not just Palestinians.

I'm not SURE what Arabs want, but the complete lack of nonxenophobic voices, even suppressed nonxenophobic voices is what worries me the most.

I can understand ANYTHING being said by some people, but when sane dialog is completely absent, and aparently completely suppressed by individual, private society - then it's time to run screaming.

I can name three to four completely sane Arabs, only two of which are definately Muslims - and one of those is Irshad Manji (hardly representative of the average). And I've been looking for years. The scary thing is the way sane voices seem to gain no traction.

164 Ben  Tue, Apr 27, 2004 11:56:59pm

#163 Joshua Scholar

Sanity is hard to find anywhere, let alone in the Arab media. And wherever it does occur in the world, it's largely by imitation.

I don't read Arabic, so I'm reliant on the Western media and organizations like MEMRI for my knowledge of Arab media; I don't how representative or sensationalist their sampling is. How about you?

I would point out that the people may not be as extreme as their papers. In the UK, a majority of people support left-wing parties (Labour and Liberal Democrat; see [Link: www.icmresearch.co.uk...] but read right-wing papers (e.g. The Sun and The Daily Telegraph; see [Link: www.nrs.co.uk...] There are various possible reasons for the this, but I suspect a lot of people find right-wing commentators more fun, but show more sense at the ballot-box. There are fundamentalist Islam and anti-Israeli radical popular movements in Arab countries, but activists are clearly a minority. It's possible that the Israeli issue simply isn't a big deal to most Arabs. After all, Arab newspapers presumably contain other content than anti-Jewish screeds: domestic commentary, cartoons, sport, TV schedules, etc.

There was a good MEMRI report in November 2003 on the poor state of development of the Arab knowledge economy ([Link: www.memri.org...] Important factors include a heavy brain drain to the West and low general literacy. As a result there are only 53 newspapers per 1000 people compared to 285 in developed countries, and "in the first half of the 1980s the average number of books translated per 1 million people in the Arab world during a 5-year period was 4.4 while in Hungary it was 519 and in Spain 920. The number for Israel is approximately 380." A particular important dynamic to grasp is the role of censorship on the one hand, and the role of government-published media on the other. Arab regimes have an interest in publishing anti-Israeli screeds, using "the pretext of Israeli domination to defer political and economic reforms"! The West doesn't have anything comparable to this level of government involvement in the press.

In nineteenth-century Europe, nationalism and xenophobia were good ways for emergent media to sell copy, effective nuclei for popular movements, and a workable structure for building support for less-than-democratic regimes. The same is true in the Arab world. It doesn't mean that anti-Zionism is necessarily the most central issue to people, only that it can be manufactured as a lowest common denominator to divert the masses from vital issues of internal reform.


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