What difference does it make now? We just accepted defeat in Fallujah and begging terms from Sadr in Najaf.

i can't find a better photo than this one

anyone want to chhime in on how fake that bottom photo looks?
how the heck did the shadows fall like that on the wall behind the soldier?
are they using a halo flash?

Humiliation and whining are Arabs' art. Let them.

OH,the humiliation! The attack on their manhood! The eeevil occupation! It's about time they got a dose of real humiliation rather than their usual self inflicted kind. Personally, I couldn't care less whether the Arabs are offended or not. I find burning Americans hanging from bridges offensive, too.

As I posted elsewhere, there was a great misunderstanding of the photos released. It's all honorable and understandable. The dude standing on the box with the wires attached is simply a reinactment of a scene in Scrooged where they turn the young lad Calvin into a human Christmas tree. They didn't use real miniature Christmas lights in deference to the non-Christian status of the captive. And the nude bodies stacked. You've never seen a Rugby scrum before? The problem is the prisoners are only issued a single uniform and they chose not to get it dirty during the game.

I've seen a LOT better PS work at Fark

This thread is going to be a troll bonanza.

First?

If found guity, full punishment according to the law. As a retired AF Officer, I am appalled by the lack of self honor displayed by certain accused "We weren't told..." Geez.

Mcgyver, out

Patrick,

You're joking, right?

yeah - I hear you and totally agree. Remember the looting of artifacts? The media lied and blew that out of proportion. We all know why.

The media isn't interested in the UN Oil for Food scam - which is a huge story. They want a handful of poorly behaving American Military personnel to signify the entire military is corrupt.

The actions of the indicted soldiers are heinous and must not go unpunished. But you know what? I don't really care if we "humiliate the Arab Street." Time and time again we've seen the "Arab Street" is really powerless to do anything. Arab humiliation is the biggest load of Chicken Little BS ever.

Right Wing Conspirator,

This thread is going to be a troll bonanza

Yep. It's going to be a long day.

Amen #1 Deadman

That's why I say F Comandante Boosh.

No guts, no glory.

Boy, you guys are fast. I just logged on, no comments and... #8?

It's easy and fun to manipulate a photo!

For the record, I'm a Red Sox fan.

The news of the poor behavior of American troops and the surrender of Fallujah make this a very bad day. This tool should never have been given the Islamic press. I find the excuse of one soldier (who is a prison guard in civilian life) that he wasn't sufficiently instructed ludicrous and as fraught with self pity as anything we have heard from the Islamists. If the charges prove true these men and women have done their country and their comrades in arms grave harm. Make no mistake, in the paranoid society of the mideast this incident will confirm every conspriracy theory. It may not be fair but it is reality. There is no way this conduct can be justified and I hope the Commanding General receives far more that a letter of reprimand.

#14 Mcgyver

You've got to be quick, 'round these parts.

The people involved should be severely punished and the careers of a whole bunch of officers up the chain of command should be terminated. But even if we publicly executed the perpetrators, it would do nothing to expiated the damage. This experiment in Jeffersonian democracy is over.

Only the most deluded White House staffers believe that we can salvage anything in Iraq no matter how much more money we are willing to pitch into this black hole.

Clearly taking out Saddam was necessary in the War on Terror. It cut of funding for numerous group, unnamed by the UN State Department because of many of the same are involved in the heroic struggle against the Zionists. But now that our further efforts in Iraq are clearly coming to naught, the whole theater is just a drain on our resources and troops. I can't wait until the UN officially takes over and even self defence is deleted from the rules of engagement.

If this story is true, and the facts are as they appear, then those guilty soldiers should be severely punished. I'm betting that most people in the West would agree with my sentiment. That is what makes us in the West BETTER than the Arab-Muslim world, despite isolated events like this. They have no problem with this treatment, as long is it is not being used on fellow [bigoted word]s. This treatment is to be reserved for infidels.

Hmmm, let's see here. How does this work again? Oh yeah, investigation, review, trial, punishment. Seems like many folks are skipping a few steps. Of course, since it's the military investigating the military (and not some honorable investigation by an impartial agency like, say, the U.N.) it'll all be bogus anyway and it's all Haliburton's fault for not getting the Afghan pipeline up fast enough to feed Bush's voracious appetite for oilll and it's all run by the feelltthhyyy jooosss anyway so who cares...

/tinfoil hat re-folded and stored

Simply put-It was inexcuseable for those US soldiers to conduct themselves in that manner that was unbecoming a member of the US Armed Services.

Those involved should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and that trial should be televised on al-Jazeera to show the difference between how the US treats those who flaunt the law and the tinpot dictators who routinely flaunt the law by dipping their opponents into plastic shredders without a thought.

This is a media nightmare for the DoD and the US in general, but the best way to deal with it is to deal with it head-on.

Those that hate the US will see this stuff and continue to believe what they've always believed in. Those on the fence may be swayed, but need to see that the US doesn't take this stuff lightly.

#7 RWC, I've already put on my troll repellant, but methinks clue by c4 will be necessary before this thread closes.

With all due respect, am I really supposed to respect Moslem life? Have these arabians forgotten the mutilations of Americans that they engaged in on 9/11? Have these worshippers of allah forgotten the pictures from Fallujah? I personally enjoy seeing subhuman Mohammedans physically punished for their crimes.

I wonder why if a group of people wanted to intentionally humiliate people why all the "victims" would be hooded? Isn’t the point of humiliating someone also to identify the person being humiliated? Are they actually Iraqi's or prisoners?

#13

I assume that you'd like Tomato Kerry for Prez.
That would give us a real poodle, sorry, man with guts and glory, eh ???

Bush makes mistakes, Kerry is a mistake.

Don't try to use the discussions about this war as a way to help the subversives and the reds, who are friends of the islamofascists and of the UN, thanks.

#18 deadman

Not much of an optimist, are you?

It totaly doesn't matter how we treat prisoners, in fact we should do just like Charles suggests, kill em like they kill their prisoners. We could do it at Ghazi Stadium, and really teach them all a lesson.

That's what went wrong in Vietnam - we didn't have the stones to do it right.

#2 hornsofthedevil ,
#6 Pious Agnostic

I'm with you--that looks so "shopped" my PC is embarrased to run MS PhotoDraw while that pic file is open... >:^P

OTOH, we have "quotes," right? And we *all* know the New York Times--er, quality media would *never* fake a news story, right? Right?

(Funny, I never noticed a special-effects echo chamber here before...)

Feh!

The grain of a precious gem that can be salvaged from all this is that it's an opportunity to demonstrate to the world how this is not allowed in our culture.

In far too many cultures, the guys on top not only allow their soldiers to do this stuff, they themselves do such to their own people--and worse! In their cultures, it's the norm, it's accepted.

This is an incident we can hold up to the world, using it to declare: THIS we shall not allow to be done! Not even to our enemies! The implicit (or, maybe we should be explicit) message to the people of the Middle East is that we are morally superior to the slime who hold them hostage. They do such to them, we prosecute our own if they dare such barbarity.

This is a war of civilization vs. barbarism. We just happen to have discovered some barbarians in our own army. We shall publicly cleanse ourselves of them.

Another good point: We're about a month into the legal process for hammering these barbarians before it hit the press. *WE* do the right thing, even without the public and international pressure.

Hey, you folks in the Mid-East? You tolerate this shit all the time. We don't. None of your cultures would look on such people as lepers not worthy of squat. Ours does. You cultures respect such people for their "strength." Ours looks down on them as weaklings, strong enough only to pick on the helpless. Yours keeps them as "leaders." Ours prosecutes them. In which of your courts would such a victim get to appear as a witness against his abuser? In which country would the one-star general these knot-heads were under get fired from the job and also face charges? Not a one!

So, which is the morally superior culture?

Have a big cup of STFU!

I also don't give a crap about the humilation of the arab mind or whatever. They wallow in "humiliaiton," looking for any reason to feel humiliated and then going on about it for a 1000 years (the Crusades, anyone? give it a rest, Omar). It's like humiliation gives them purpose.

I DO care, however, about our honor and decency. This is a war of civilizations, and we hold the moral high ground. We are better. And our military represents, in many ways, what is best about us.

Not to satisfy their humiliation culture, but to maintain our honor, the sadistic losers (you gotta love the one reservist who is civiliation life is a prison guard in South Carolina -- memo to self: don't go to prison in South Carolina)... need to be punished and their ilk purged from our forces. And it needs to be public enough to make a statement about who we are.

a photograph of a female U.S. soldier standing by a hooded naked prisoner. The soldier is pointing at his genitals, which are blurred out, and grinning at the camera.

Ouch.

It truly is sad that this event event will provide fodder for moral equivalency for every moonbat around the world. It doesn't matter that occurrences such as these are statistical anomalies given the number of troops in Iraq. It doesn't matter that we are prosecuting and punishing those involved. It doesn't matter that this type of behavior is not systematic. It doesn't matter that our society condemns such behavior and roots it out.

At the end of the day we will have yet another pretty much irrelevant media scandal that allows the LLL to say "see, we are just as bad as Saddam".

I haven't even bothered to watch the 60 minutes episode. It really doesn't interest me. I wish the media, just once, could cover US marines handing out humanitarian assistance or building houses or holding fire because some Jihadi has pushed a 9 yr old in front of him.

Vain hope, I know.

In '92 - '93 soldiers from the Canadian Airborne Regiment were sent to Somalia on a "Peace Enforcement" mission. These were arguably Canada's best soldiers. Regrettably, a handful of soldiers were charged, and later found guilty, of torturing and killing a local boy who had attempted to infiltrate their camp.

Without getting into the entire sordid story, these events resulted in several officers being removed from duty and ultimately lead to the complete disbanding of the CAR. A major mistake IMO, but the effects were so devastating that the politicos had no other choice...

Abusing prisinors is reprehensible and illegal. Taking pictures of it is, among other things, stupid.

Sorry for the OT, but it brought back memories.

Ranten:

Let the crusade begin! We'll teach them the right way. In fact, we should bring them over to school of americas, and train them what a superior culture is all about.

But not a word of disapproval from the Arab World™ when the noble mujahideen resistance fighters use women and children as human shields, or tear apart the bodies of Westerners, or use mosques as weapons dumps and cover for gunmen, or murder captured prisoners.

... practices which are widespread, condoned by their society, statistically common, and so on.

'Peace' is Hell...

Suicide Boming kills two Marines in Fallujah

Gee, that 'cease fire' in Fallujah is really paying dividends. Won't be long until other anti-American elements in Iraq like Sadr's militia learn and apply the lessons of Fallujah. Our problems in Iraq just got infinitely worse.

#24 Poitiers-Lepanto

You know what they say about assumptions: they make an ass of you and me. You haven't made an ass of me, however...

Of course I don't want Kerry. I obviously stated that I think Bush's handling of the conflict is weak at best. Why would I want someone weaker and more likely to capitualte like Heinz 57?

Further, don't acuse me of trying to assist subversives and reds, who I loathe as much as I do cardboard-cutout politicians like Kerry and Bush. I can't see how anyone thinks Bush is serious about the War on Terror when he has practically opened the floodgates for even MORE illegals to enter this country through Mexico.

And is there a bigger friend to the Islamofascists then Bush in his comfy dealings with Il Cosa Nostra Bin Saud?

Wake up, man. This is a solution that neither the elephants nor jackasses can fix. It's not the people they have in mind, it's their pockets, and the sooner you get that through your head, the sooner your shackles will fall.

It's time for change. It's time to pay attention to our CONSTITUTION. It's time wage a REAL WAR with Islamofascism.

I don't see your boy Bush doing so. But maybe you can convince the mothers of our boys who died in Fallujah otherwise, when they could still be here had we rained B-2 on them like no tomorrow.

24 Poitiers-Lepanto

#13

I assume that you'd like Tomato Kerry for Prez.

You mean "Janus Flip-flop Kerry"?

Maybe its just a siLLLy Westerner, or maybe "#13" is a member of this fan club:

Arab Americans To Widely Vote For Kerry: Poll

"Anything that moves hundreds or thousands of votes can have a seismic impact on this election," said Zogby

Um, yes. a few hundred (or thousand) votes will have a seismic effect on the U.S. electoral college (hello? Remember the electoral college? The U.S. is a *republic*.)

Happily, not all seismic events register on the Richter Scale. 8^}

Sorry, I'm disagreeing with Charles on this. You should simply post about how atrocious this act is and not try to tie it in with a "hey, they do the same thing". That's just lame.

It's these kinds of posts that the LLL love. You're trying to pull the same moral equiv. that they do by comparing.

For me, nothing else outside of an outright condemnation is acceptable from any of my fellow VRWC members. Condemn it and leave it at that. Trying to soften this horrific act with an "I know we did but so did they" to me is reprehensible.

I don't agree with whoever it is that thinks all is lost, but this is not a good sign.

And to answer the technical question of how did the light get behind the man, that is normal. The specularity of the wall will reflect enough to create light that over powers the shadow from the lens' perspective. Plus, any light that bounces from other walls & the ceiling can do fill like that. I use bounce light in my photography.

Color me skeptical. It's not as though the Arab media and commie UK rags have a sterling reputation for the utmost honesty. These alleged atrocities could have been easily posed or faked. I will wait for the results of the investigation.

Jenin, anyone?

ack. prisinors? prisoners.

#22 Angry Infidel:

I just look at it as, two wrongs don't make a right.

Fallujah atrocities aside, would you be happy if the roles were reverse and these were Iraqi guards doing this to American soldiers? Because I think thats how normal, everyday, non-millitant, non-nutcase Iraqi's feel when they look at this.

upton (#26) wrote:

It totaly doesn't matter how we treat prisoners, in fact we should do just like Charles suggests, kill em like they kill their prisoners. We could do it at Ghazi Stadium, and really teach them all a lesson.

I neither wrote nor suggested anything like that.

Absolutely terrible conduct from these troops but the US is not the only military having these kinds of problems. Italy and the UK are also investigating charges of mistreatment/abuse and torture of Iraqi prisoners under their control.

Sadly, one of the realities of war, is that after you see the depths of depravity of the enemy, it becomes easy to rationalize your mistreatment of them.

As long as you yourself don't set the prisoners on fire, drag their charred remains through the city streets while the local village idiots kick at, spit on, and throw rocks at what's left before you hang them from bridges, anything goes.

Dirk Diggler (#35),

Our problems in Iraq just got infinitely worse.

Literally?

#38 Robb:

I read Charles stement differently. He is condemning this attrocity for what it is, he's more knocking the Arab media for denouncing this yet not denouncing kidnappings and such when militants do similar things.

We should just have CACI and Titan do more than just interrogate the prisoners. Why are we running prisons in Iraq? Let the mercanaries do it.

Sorry, I'm disagreeing with Charles on this. You should simply post about how atrocious this act is and not try to tie it in with a "hey, they do the same thing". That's just lame.

I don't believe that's what Charles is saying. He's saying that this is an unfortunate, isolated incident that sadly will be played by the media as representative of the US military throughout much of the world. On the other hand, he's also pointing out that much worse behavior is commonplace throughout the Muslim world and gets no media attention.

He's not saying "they do it so we can do it".

#38,

I see you quoted Charles as saying

"hey, they do the same thing"

Actually, he never said that. He did say:

"noble mujahideen resistance fighters use women and children as human shields, or tear apart the bodies of Westerners, or use mosques as weapons dumps and cover for gunmen, or murder captured prisoners"

Are these things the same as humiliating prisoners? Help me out here.

#38 Robb

With all due respect you are blowing this situation way out of proportion which is exactly what the LLL's want. You really think they give a sh*t about these people? They were the ones trying to keep Saddam in power when he was doing much worse. They brought this to light to cause dissention within the pro-WoT ranks because they know that we do care about our fellow man. They are using our compassion against us. Divided We Fall...

#37 LtTw:
Sadly, 100000 can have a seismic effect on an election. If the 10000 or so votes are in key states, it can upset the whole electoral process. My vote for W won't have much effect in Massachusetts, however if I moved to Florida or Michigan, my vote could do a lot more. Know what I mean?

OT, but this is the newsletter from Nightline, re tonight's propaganda piece, that they are now using as a report on the noon news on my local ABC station.

It will be on in the NY Metro area, sadly.

Nightline Daily E-Mail
April 30, 2004

TONIGHT'S FOCUS: Tonight's broadcast will be very simple. Ted will introduce the show, and then for the next 40 minutes, he will read the names, and we will show the photographs, of all those killed in Iraq. But of course, nothing is simple.

There is so much that I want to say about tonight's broadcast, about how it was conceived, what our thinking was, why we are doing it. It seems that Ted and I have been doing nothing but talking to reporters and radio and television stations for days now. But in the end, I don't think it matters what we think. I think what's important is what all of you think. As I have said many times, whether you are for the war or against it, these men and women, whose pictures you will see tonight, have paid the ultimate price in our names. We think it is only fitting that for one night, we present their names. All I would hope is that all of you who watch, like all of us who are working on it, will take a moment at least to think about that sacrifice.

Leroy Seivers and the Nightline Staff
Nightline Offices
ABCNEWS Washington D.C.

If you have questions or comments regarding this message or a recent "Nightline" broadcast, please do not hit reply; simply click on this link to send your message directly to the "Nightline" staff:
Or log on to the new "Nightline" Message Board:

[Link: boards.go.com...]

Chat with "Nightline" guests and find articles, transcripts and video excerpts on our Web site at: [Link: abcnews.go.com...]

The address on the email is:

listeditor@abcnews.go.com

I saw the pictures also...and I have lived most of my life (except for University) in the Middle East.

These jihadniks were not "tortured" at all...full stop!

Anyone taken custody in this neighbourhood (Israel included) can expect worse treatment for the offence of Jay-walking.

This is a bogus and farcical accusation!

To the US Forces ; "Stand together and fight the war...and screw the PC crowd...they'll get you killed!"

Who is surprised that the Arab World is outraged by this. The Western World is appalled and outraged. That's what matters.

#37LtLw

As with Poitiers-Lepanto, I'm beginning to question whether or not you can read.

Read my post # 36 and decide if you still think I would vote for a scumbag like Heinz 57.

Sorry if I think the Dems are quick cyanide and the Republicans are slow cancer. Forgive me further for not being a believer in the lesser of two evils theory.

Random thoughts:

1. The people who did this--ALLEGEDLY (hat tip, Jim Rome)--were immoral and stupid. If found guilty, they should be sharply punished.

2. The perpetrators have dishonored the uniform of the United States, and have caused us great embarrassment at a time when we can least afford it.

3. But it still pales in comparison to the atrocities of Fallujah, as has been noted above. Guess which provokes the greater "world outrage", however.

4. The Euro press will have a field day over this, including and especially Fleet Street, which seldom if ever misses an opportunity for Yank-bashing. (One Brit paper had "America's Shame" splashed on the front page.) Sadly, some idiots in our own ranks have provided fodder for the anti-American orgy.

5. Did the jackasses have to take pictures?

6. Did CBS have to air them?

7. Nevertheless, perhaps some good can come from this is these clowns are punished, and SEEN to be punished. (Assuming they are found guilty in a proceeding with due process, of course.)

Robb: I'm simply trying to give this a bit of balance, and avoid making it the focus of a gigantic overreaction. If it's all true, then yes, of course, the soldiers need to be disciplined. And then we move on. I don't think we have to worry about this sort of thing becoming an epidemic in the US military.

However -- this does not make "us" as bad as "them," it doesn't hand the Arab World™ a huge propaganda victory, or anything else along those lines. These things happen on the battlefield, and they need to be dealt with. But it seems like in our super-saturated media environment, this incident (involving only 6 MPs, and nobody was physically harmed) is being inflated beyond all rational importance.

Ok, fuck it, where can I see the pictures? (Like I don't have better things to do)

Charles:

I was just a little fired up. You did not suggest we should kill prisoners.
I believe you where comparing different levels of outrage over different acts in the Arab media.
It was my jumping off point.
Like: "Where's this outrage when they do heinous things to us?"

I was just saying if that's what it takes: let's just do it.

I think the approach we should have taken would not have required us having to take many prisoners, but that's just my two cents.

OT:

Terrorist wishes he had alleged chemical bomb in Jordan

Anyway you cut it, the pictures and the brutality behind it are bad news. We've been treating these soldiers like they are so competent, heroic and decent that we lost our ability to be critical of tactical incompetence, stupid intelligence and brutal humanitarianism. Before I get labeled as an LLL again, I'll add we also have the honesty to confront our mistakes, apologize and correct them, which our opponents mostly lack!

Slightly OT: As if to prove b.r.d. that "forgetfulness" (of our institutions, culture and history) is a sign of imminent decline, http://anncoulter.com/ recites the history of Norm Mineta, Mufti of DC, and his embrace of the multiculti ethos. The ACLU should be placed on the Terroist Watchlist.

I was appalled when I saw those pictures. In light of the quote by the "gentleman" from South Carolina I am inclined to believe that they are, at least in part if not wholly, representative of the reality of what had happened.

Make no mistake, people. This moronicity is not just a PR debacle. This will cost soldiers' lives. More Iraqis and others will take up arms than otherwise would have and for different reasons (to oust what they perceive as a sadistic occupier rather than for Jihad). Men who would have surrendered will fight to the death rather than allow themselves to be taken prisoner. Western prisoners, both military and civilian, may be killed or tortured where they otherwise would not have been.

This is more than some stupid fraternity prank. This is not hazing. This is a crime that needs to be addressed strongly, loudly and very, very quickly (unless you want the trial to coincide with the election). If soldiers who perpetrated the crimes that apparently took place do not serve many years in Leavenworth or a similar facility, I will be disappointed. I believe that there was a time when, in certain militaries, people who acted in this manner would have, upon a finding of guilt, finished their days at the end of a rope. While I am not advocating that in this instance, there was certainly some merit to this approach.

#13 Uncle Dave

You 'amen'ed the wrong guy. I am fully behind POTUS with respect to the war on Saddam and terror in general. I'm just suggesting that we end this particular experiment and save our powder for when we can make a difference.

#25 RIP Ford

Optimists can never be pleasantly surprised.

my motto:
Nothing is ever so bad that it can't get worse.

corollary:
It always seems darkest just before it goes pitch black.

wise advice from Homer Simpson:

Trying is just the first step towards failure, so never try.

#33 Upton

mentioning the School of Americas - one of the penultimate moonbat credentials.

More evil has come out of Oxford, Berkeley, Columbia etc, than out of the Army training school that tries to vitiate brutal impulses and instill some sense of human rights.

Remember, the reason why all this came to light was that fellow soldiers were shocked by the criminal mistreatment of the prisoners, took the matter to their chain of command, and the allegations were investigated.

Yes, these asshats have brought discredit upon the Armed Forces if they did what they are charged with, and if found guilty, will be punished.

Compare and contrast the treatment of American PWs in GW1 and GW2, and the lack of Arab outrage.

Its pretty shameful and the reason why we have to rise to a new level above these savages. They get all the sympathy even though they have done as bad or worse shite.

Its pretty humiliating I'll give it that, and those responsible need to be punished publicly and forcibly.

We cannot stoop to the level of the dogs weve sworn to protect lest we become our own object of hatred.

#64 Deadman

I'm behind Bush as well. I just wish he would pull his head out of ass and do this like it needs to be done as opposed to sending our troops to their graves.

Time and time again (and ask an Arab and they'll tell you this themselves), it has been proven that the "Arab Street" understands nothing but respect through fear. We have to make them afraid of us. PC wars do not, cannot, will not work.

Bowing out of Fallujah is NOT making them fear us.

Levelling Fallujah at the first peep out of there would have.

This is nonsense. Punish the offenders with the military justice system. No more, no less. Move on. Win the war. Don't the traitors in the media and the Democratic Party bog us down.

Bottom line: the pictures show mistreatment of prisoners. It should be punished under UCMJ, to what the extent of the punishment is, once a complete investigation takes place. There's no good excuse for this kind of thing.

That said, I think this is fairly mild stuff. Stupid, UCMJ-offense-related, get the people who did it in a lot of trouble stuff, but comparatively mild.

Investigate, punish the guilty, move on.

Arab street is inflamed = sky is blue.

Jakester post #61 USA soldiers ARE competent heroic and decent, that is why the few who disgrace the country and the uniform make such news and why they will suffer deserved punishment.

Seems as though the Islam Fraternity guys can't take traditional hazing rituals common to the Greek Row set on virtually every campus in America. I guess thats why can you never expect to find any Al Shitbirds in Sigma Chi despite the push for campus "diversity".

Charles et al.

I understand and agree with your points. I just don't want the moonbats thinking we don't care about these things because they accuse us of being warmongers as it is.

I guess I'm just more concerned that we show our disgust. I hope that if this is all true that we make an example out of these people and show the world how we do not abide by nor condone this kind of behavior.

Compare these photographs to the Daniel Pearl Video then ask yourself who you'd rather be captured by: the US army with the chance of getting 2 nutjob prison guards in one prison somewhere, or by people who will slowly cut your throat for the unconcealed edification of the Muslim masses.

#54 uncle dave 4/30/2004 09:25AM PST

#37LtLw

As with Poitiers-Lepanto, I'm beginning to question whether or not you can read.

#54 uncle dave 4/30/2004 09:25AM PST
Amen #1 Deadman

That's why I say F Comandante Boosh.

No guts, no glory.

Yep, I even read for a living.

Here's my reasoning, based on your own report:

"F" invokes an indelicate activity, and the naming slur is a pretty common siLLLy statement. Since I read *far* too much of such drek from the siLLLy sort who lust after Kerry's flip-flopping, I allowed you *might* be of this breed. Based on your own report, eh?

If you will look at the times, our #36 and #37 both hit at 9:10AM. So chances are pretty slim that I could have read your #36 in advance of posting my #37.

Having read your #36, I am now confident that you won't vote for Kerry--but you might approve of global annihilation. Can't agree with that, either. I don't approve of reckless suicide.

I do like the the way you organize your ideas and your dramatic writing style. Your post was articulate and interesting to read!

Again, I apologize for guessing wrong about your *possible* affiliation--one small writing sample is not the best way to gauge a person's worldview.

Ed Moran (#65),

Compare and contrast the treatment of American PWs in GW1 and GW2, and the lack of Arab outrage.

Ed Moran, we expect the Arabs to be pissed whenever we do anything out of line. What I find more depressing is that I now expect this from the US media. Who not only could care less about the mistreatment of our POWs, but actively work hard to 'prove' the military is only concerned about them when it's a good publicity stunt ala Jessica Lynch. (Who, by the way was never beaten, tortured, or raped, but in fact received the utmost medical care and tender treatment. Dan Rather told me so.)

Forcing nudity on prisoners is a well known method of psychological warfare.
You can question the wisdom of using it,
but the intent is not abuse.

No thanks on this story. Leslie Cockburn has such a checkered past of working with the Christic Institute as well as Medea Benjamin at Global Exchange that there's reason to doubt even the slightest claim by the shows she produces.

Deadman said, "More evil has come out of Oxford, Berkeley, Columbia etc, than out of the Army training school that tries to vitiate brutal impulses and instill some sense of human rights."

Bravo! The Cockburns all went to Oxford and they're all the offspring of Stalinist sympathizer Patrick Claud Cockburn. Hell, even Orwell was critical of the Cockburns.

The images were potentially inflammatory in an Arab world already angry at the U.S. occupation of Iraq. Arabs consider public nudity dishonorable.

But not a word of disapproval from the Arab World™ when the noble mujahideen resistance fighters use women and children as human shields, or tear apart the bodies of Westerners, or use mosques as weapons dumps and cover for gunmen, or murder captured prisoners.

When Muslims protest brutality of this sort, they testify against themselves that they truly grasp the moral implications of such behavior.

Thus their protest is meaningless and their behavior remains abhorent.

Knowing this "media bias", we still find it within ourselves to provide them with ample fuel.

Its pretty shameful and the reason why we have to rise to a new level above these savages.

We don't need to "rise" to a new level above them. Again, this is an isolated incident that is in no way representative of US Forces as a whole. It is simply a media scandal that will be used by the entire Muslim world and the LLL to justify their prejudice against American soldiers.

Compare this to the Muslim world, where far more barbaric incidents occur on a regular basis and are endorsed by their society (honor kilings, suicide bombing, female genital mutilation, wife beating, ...)

#63 Jheka,

Right on. Furthermore, what makes "us" different from "them" is not that we are not capable of such things -- all human beings have this potential, and anyone who believes differently is in profound denial.

What truly makes us different is that we won't sit idly by and tolerate it, or rationalize it, or hide it, or encourage it (sotto voce), or make excuses for it.

It's unacceptable. Period.

Was anyone actually injured? Bruised egos not included. If not looks like psyop, or people being stupid.

Mountain out of a mole hill.

Knowing this "media bias", we still find it within ourselves to provide them with ample fuel.

Who's "we"? You mean two pieces of trash in a force of 150,000 did this act and "we" provide them with this fodder?

Or are you referring to the fact that CBS even bothered to air the photos?

#63 Jheka

Make no mistake, people. This moronicity is not just a PR debacle. This will cost soldiers' lives. More Iraqis and others will take up arms than otherwise would have and for different reasons (to oust what they perceive as a sadistic occupier rather than for Jihad). Men who would have surrendered will fight to the death rather than allow themselves to be taken prisoner. Western prisoners, both military and civilian, may be killed or tortured where they otherwise would not have been.

Perhaps more serious than a PR debacle, but there we part company. The way we're condictng the war on the battlefield is costing our soldiers lives. As for Iraqis taking up arms, maybe so, but the answer is ruthlessness, of which we've seen too little. If heretofore complacent Iraqis want to fight, then our choice is clear and we must crush them. These so-called atrocities by our MPs are a sideshow. It's possible that more Western prisoners might die, and I'm sorry aboutt that. But to keep insisting that the U.S. abide by a double standard doesn't make sense to me.

#50 Innismir

I know what you are saying about the "popular" vote. However, I am also mindful that the electoral college is *not* constrained to follow the popular vote.

If only the Media could "understand" simple ideas like this. Oh, wait! Maybe somebody is manipulating the public, who've been taught for decades that the U.S. is a "democracy." Ay!

OT but at least now
i JAG
has some fresh material to work with.

I love that show. There's just something...you know...realistic...about a JAG lawyer in a Tomcat.

/sarcasm

#8 McGyver:
"As a retired AF Officer, I am appalled by the lack of self honor displayed by certain accused 'We weren't told...' Geez."

Amen. I spent 30 years in the US Army, active and reserve, and advanced from E-1 to O-5 in that time.

These sad-sacks would never be able to convince me that they just didn't know any better.

As you know, lectures and regular training on the Geneva Conventions and the Laws of War are routine in all units, let alone MP units that apparently specialize in detention: [Link: www.baltimoresun.com...]

It is disgraceful that an MP would attempt to plead ignorance of the Geneva guidelines or routine procedure.
I think we are seeing a My Lai style defense here, transferring the blame to the command structure in the hope of obscuring the defendant's personal guilt behind a political smokescreen.
Guilt of one kind or another does appear to go pretty high up the chain here (as it did at My Lai) but that doesn't get the low-level perps off the hook.
Any soldier, let alone an MP with civilian correctional experience, should know better than this.

Several of the reservist defendants are correctional officers from Maryland and Virginia.
This raises the possibility that the scandal will extend into the civilian arena.
I can just see a lot of Md. and Va. cons reading the news, nodding their heads, and saying "uh huh."
This is going to get a lot worse.

#88 Rayra

LOL. Just you wait though, it is a little early for the as*hats right now. Come 6:00 or so they will be contaminating this thread.

#84 Inside the Whale:

It's possible that more Western prisoners might die, and I'm sorry aboutt that. But to keep insisting that the U.S. abide by a double standard doesn't make sense to me.

Which double standard was I promoting?

And what does this have to do with battlefield tactics?

Even if we use the very best tactics or the most ruthless tactics (not necessarily the same thing), 10,000 enemies will be more deadly to our side than 1,000. I'm not suggesting that this incident will swell the ranks 10 fold but any increase in their number means a likely corresponding increase in our casualties. Moreover, an enemie that is not willing to surrender and a populace that is suddenly less helpful than it otherwise may have been means more dead and injured American soldiers. What the soldiers who allegedly committed these crimes did will be reflected in American blood, regardless of our battlefield tactics, which are a completely separate issue.

I don't see any upside for anyone in our country to get on the indignant side of having this kind of amateur mistreatment of prisoners being rightly condemned.

Bush today rightly joined the condemnations.

Those soldiers and especially commanders who let this happen have horribly wounded their own sides' prisoners of war who will pay the heaviest price of brutal retaliations in their less publicized captivity. We know the Muslim forces are already savage and without scruples and will now misread this as our national policy so as to find heinous new outlets for their savagery.

The guilty American parties should pay a very formidaable toll in prison terms for the damage they have inflicted on our war cause and on our own POW's safety.

If you are aiming to win hearts and minds, as we must do especially in the war on terror, you must demonstrate possession of same.

Moreover, an enemie that is not willing to surrender and a populace that is suddenly less helpful than it otherwise may have been means more dead and injured American soldiers. What the soldiers who allegedly committed these crimes did will be reflected in American blood,

Fine Jheka, but then that blood is also on CBS's hands for airing the story.

Just wait. Kerry'll say "see, what did I tell you back in the '70s about soldiers being war criminals with the blessings of their commanders." For all who've worn the uniform and feel disgraced by the actioons of this tiny minority of misguided MPs, let's not forget the dedicated work of the Marines and others who've risked their lives to rebuild this sorry little shithole. As others have said, prosecute them under the UCMJ, and let's get on with winning this thing.

#93 Globular Custard:

No argument there. But the buck passed through CBS. It didn't start or stop there.

Just a reminder...

Graphic images from Iraq shock Europe

No shock, just smirks on the arab street...can't believe I used that term. There is nothing that any US or coalition troop member could ever do that would come close to whyat sadamn and his 2 progeny did to their own countrymen.

Nothing.

LONDON -- Europe reacted with horror Thursday to the grisly images of four American bodies being mutilated in Iraq, with some newspapers speculating about a quicker U.S. troop withdrawal and others saying it could serve as a new standard for attacks.

Broadcasters and newspapers around the world carried the gruesome images from the attack in Fallujah. Some London tabloids blurred the photos, and Arab television obscured more gruesome footage.

The left-leaning Rome daily La Repubblica ran front page photos of the cheering crowds around the burned-out SUVs the ambushed contractors had been traveling in. More graphic images of bodies dangling from the bridge were printed on its inside pages.

"Iraq, the horror of Fallujah: four westerners massacred and burned, the crowd celebrates," the paper said in a front-page headline.

In the Milan daily Corriere della Sera, which published similar pictures, columnist Gianni Riotta noted that the attack came during the U.S. presidential election campaign, and that previous U.S. decisions to withdraw troops, in Lebanon and Somalia, have come after particularly bloody attacks.

"If the American public opinion is impressed by the fierce torture of Fallujah and by the endless stream of army dead ... it could force the White House to do a turnaround, hand over governing to the Iraqis, leave some troops based there, and then get out," he wrote.

In Britain, most newspapers blurred photographs of the bodies being dragged through the streets, a man hitting one of the corpses with his shoe and crowds celebrating after two of the men were hung on a bridge.

"The slaughter in Fallujah was like a scene from hell," the Daily Mirror said in an editorial. "Their bodies were hacked to pieces, decapitated, burnt and strung up. The pictures are too awful for the Mirror to print untouched."

An exception was the International Herald Tribune, which showed a clear picture of a charred body hanging from a bridge with celebrating Iraqis posing in the foreground. The newspaper is published by The New York Times Co., which ran the same picture on its flagship paper, The New York Times.

"Shocking as these attacks were, they risk becoming the standard by which the more extreme elements of the resistance in Iraq judge the daring and commitment of their fellow fighters," The Independent newspaper wrote in an editorial.

Arab satellite stations broadcast pictures from Fallujah at the top of their half-hourly news bulletins throughout Wednesday. A correspondent on Al Arabiya compared the attack to the events that prompted the United States to withdraw from Somalia.

Al Arabiya blurred images of the bodies, though it is not uncommon to see graphic violence and bodies on Arabic television.

There was no editorializing by the Arabic networks, though Al-Jazeera interviewed a young man who said, "This is the fate of the infidels."

An Islamist web site published what looked like stills from the TV pictures with the caption: "Pictures of the liberation of Iraq."

In Spain, the images were shown on most TV channels Wednesday evening and again Thursday morning. There were also front page color pictures in most newspapers, but the images did not show faces.

In Sweden, the tabloid Expressen ran a large photo of bodies hanging from the bridge, clearly showing the limbs cracked and hanging askew. Fellow tabloid Aftonbladet ran photos of the bodies on the bridge and jubilant Iraqis.

Sweden's other newspapers did not publish graphic photos, showing only shots of the burning SUVS. On TV, images were brief and did not show the bodies.

In the Netherlands, prime time newscasts aired footage of the burning vehicle, Iraqis cursing America, the bodies being dragged through the street, and later hanging from the bridge. The broadcasts were preceded by a warning that the footage was gruesome.

The LLL will do anything to get the US out of Iraq, and President Bush out of the White House. Next they will blame the President for the actions of our military. Can every single one of you say with absolute surety that you might not, even as well trained US military, have been so angry and provoked by what was being done to your own men, that you might not react this way?

Dan Rather? The Ted Koppel/Peter Jennings of the major networks. What's the frequency, Kenneth?

#87 Shiplord Kirel. You have an excellent perspective on the overall picture of this situation. Now, the big question is whether or not the press is going to turn this into the equivalent of a Rodney King moment and if some attorney out there smells a "Rodney King lottery win" in this.

As a side note, I just want to say how frustrating this episode is. We work tirelessly to combat misinformation, create perspective, to try to instill a view that reflects the reality of an entire society and an entire military. We write letters to editors and congresspeople, post on blogs, and then "poof" the morons can now focus on this one isolated example as justification of their anti-americanism and moral equivalency.

It just makes me want to pull my hair out. How could these MP's be so fucking stupid as to pull shit like this? Have they no idea how much propaganda ammo they have given our enemies?

Back to square one. Start all over.

#92 RufusLeeKing

If you are aiming to win hearts and minds, as we must do especially in the war on terror, you must demonstrate possession of same.

Any examples of where the "hearts and minds" strategy has worked? Subjugate them and their hearts and minds will follow. Winning hearts and minds proved impossible in Vietnam, and for other reasons, will prove impossible in Iraq--at least so long as strategies such as the Fallujah cease-fires are ascendant. To survive, the U.S. must be ruthless. The payback for our unprecedented (at least since the Marshall Plan) reconstruction efforts in Iraq has not been gratitude. It's been dancing around burning Humvees and mutilating corpses. Just one small irony: the most refractory problem in rebuilding Iraq's infrastrure has been restoring a reliable electric grid. To some extent we've succeeded, but since the U.S. led invasion and the emergence of a consumer society in Iraq, Iraqis now have access to things like TVs and air conditioners, and are now complaining about the lack of reliable electrical power. What they seem to be good at is whining and blaming. Despite the fact that most of the Arab-Islamic world is poverty-ridden, despotic and corrupt, Arabs seem to have an entitlement mentality that puts the West to shame. I'm no student of psychohistory, but I'll wager that 1,300 years of being told "we are #1!" by every imam and tin pot oil shiekh has not instilled much work ethic in the Arab world. Nor any sense of compassion, whether we're nice to them or not.

Surprise! The arab press aka al jazeera, is crying crocodile tears...

Arab Television Shows Prisoner Abuse

Unlike the RoP, there will be a Military Court Martial.

#99 Globular.

Exactly. Which means we must send a very quick, very harsh message to the folks in the field that this won't be tolerated for a nanosecond. I am not implying for a moment that I think this is widespread (or at least I certainly hope not), but the stakes are simply too goddamned high to allow this sort of nonsense.

What frustrates *me* is that at the same time we are having to deal with this distracting bullshit, we have 1MEF executing a strategic withdrawal from Fallujah. It seems we are being ruthless in all the wrong places.

Did you see how excited that US slut was at the sight of Arab genitalia? Typical American whore, can’t get enough non-white cock. Conclusive proof that US army are a bunch of sluts and cowards fighting warriors and maidens. How does your cowardly retreat from Fallujah feel?

not as good as your mother's insides, Adam

#104 Adam

F-ck off jack a$$.

Charles, clean up in aisle 104.

I congratulate the soldier who turned over the tape of this to the authorities. That is the kind of honorable behavior that I expect from US soldiers.

I am very concerned by this incident. Not just because of the way it seriously undermines our effort in Iraq, but because it shakes my faith in our military. I understand that the vast majority of our military would never engage in behaviors like this. But the fact that the group that perpetrated these acts felt comfortable enough to do it in front of other soldiers, and to have it videotaped while they laugh and joke, makes me wonder what kind of structure of command we have over there. How could they even think that it was OK to do these things? I can understand one or two idiots misbehaving -- but this doesn't appear to be one or two people. It appears to be something so routine that the perpetrators felt they could videotape it and write home about it without getting in trouble.

If I can't trust that we really ARE the good guys, the kind of people who act with honor regardless of how our enemies behave (and those of you who are equivocating and saying its no worse than what the enemy does should be ashamed) then my support for this whole enterprise is shaken. I supported this because I wanted to see the Iraqis liberated and because I believe in our American values and our superior, moral goals and behavior. I expect our soldiers to hold themselves to the highest degree of excellence regardless of what others do.

Instead, now our enemies can use these tapes to support all of the claims they've been making about us. All of the lies they've been trupeting on AlJazeera, that most Iraqis wouldn't have believed before, will now start to seem believable.

The morons who perpetrated these acts single-handedly threw away the most valuable weapon we had there: the reputation of the US military as the good guys.

People:

GAZE at 104. Don't feed the slimy thing.

LtLw

Apologies for my insult earlier.

We're on the same side after all.

Can't let these LLL's divide and conquer.

Besides the the offense itself, I am furious at these soldiers for the pure heedless ignorance they have displayed during this episode.

Could they really have been so unaware of the possible consequences that they felt safe in taking pictures that they should reasonably have known would ignite a media firestorm and condemn them all to prison?
Were they that sure that this would never come to light?
What kind of officers and NCOs would let this happen? Had they not heard of the uproar over Guantanamo?

This should have been one of the most sensitive posts in the military, yet it was turned over to a bunch of callous buffoons.

I have talked here about the bad precedent this country set when it failed to prosecute Jane Fonda and Ramsey Clark for their treasonous conduct during the Vietnam War.
I think we set another bad precedent at about the same time, however, when William "My Lai" Calley wasn't put against a wall and shot.

#107 Mark

The media blur is at work here. Who shot this video? The press, the military or someone else? Honestly, what military person is thinking to themselves "let's commit UCMJ crimes and put on film?".

I think there's much more below the surface. I saw a 60 minutes II report featuring these same writers and producers back in January about this military prision. The producers were making tons of accusations against the brigadier general based on accounts from the Iraqi townspeople.

CBS isn't telling us everything they know. Are they telling the military everything they know?

#110 Rayra

Sounds like a commondreamer that got lost.

#112 Axiom

I don't know what's going on below the surface and I don't care. There is no way any U.S. soldier should have been willing to participate in these acts, period. I don't care who was holding the camera or why. There is no excuse of any kind -- not what the enemy does, not the choices of the left-leaning media outlets like CBS, nothing -- for those acts. I don't care if Osama himself was holding the camera.

I'll say it again: if I can't be confident in my heart that our troops ARE the good guys, then my support for the whole Iraqi enterprise wanes. What's the point? Call me idealistic, I guess. I know that those acts were committed by only a few soldiers, but until now I have had 100% faith in and admiration of our troops. Now there's a little seed of doubt.

This is a very bad thing. The best thing we had going for us was that we had the moral high ground. Those morons in the video threw that away.

#113 Axiom aka Iron Chef Patton

I just looked up commondreamer AKA Common Dreams, eck. What dreck. Thanks for the reference. :P

I'll say it again: if I can't be confident in my heart that our troops ARE the good guys, then my support for the whole Iraqi enterprise wanes. What's the point? Call me idealistic, I guess.

How merely calling you retarded? If this isolated incident alone makes you lose confidence in the totality of the troops stationed in Iraq then you never really "had confidence" (i.e., "liked") the military to begin with. Your disingenuous attempt to portray yourself as a fence sitter who was overwhelmed and pushed over by this incident is truly sad.

What on Earth is the matter with you people???

How many American deaths and returning coffins (Oh, wait! THEY are censored!) will it take before you realise that every prisoner may have information that make him (or her) a "ticking bomb"???

Interrogation may not be as "cute" as the stuff you watch on TV...but it is required if you wish to save American lives. Don't like the idea of interrogating prisoners?? Go join the United Nations---preferably the French delegation.

Was someone injured??? Nope! Only "humiliated"...for God's sake, THEY ARE THE ENEMY!!!

I saw the pictures online on the ABC (Aussie) "News on demand " programme---THERE WAS NO TORTURE, and it is sickening to realise that so many otherwise sane people would accept the Al JAzeera/CBS version without even having seen the pix!

Any brilliant ideas about just how the US forces should extract information from prisoners???

Personally, I recommend that you turn your prisoners over to us (the IDF) and let us do the interrogation---it would save US lives, and not upset those of you who haven't got the stomach to win.

Peace,

Tamar

117 Tamar

If they are coercing prisoners to divulge critical information to prevent a terrorist attack, why on god's green earth would they take photos like this?

Instead, now our enemies can use these tapes to support all of the claims they've been making about us. All of the lies they've been trupeting on AlJazeera, that most Iraqis wouldn't have believed before, will now start to seem believable.

B.S.!!!

The pictures are so tame that the Arabs won't even blink!!

Any examples of where the "hearts and minds" strategy has worked? Subjugate them and their hearts and minds will follow.

How could we have rounded up Saddam, shaked and baked his sons, or boxed his deck of jokers without willing support from the populace?

I am no advocate of warm and fuzzy combat when the line is drawn. Our lethality is paramount in this war. But we have to also offer a carrot on occasion to get the beasts into the right pens.

Honestly I am so sick of Arabs and their sensibilities and their seething. I am tired of the war that must be waged in a PC fashion. If you don't have the will to win-you won't. We need the will to win.
Has everyone forgotten 9-11 so quickly? I haven't-it ruined my life and changed it forever. I guess for most people it was just something that happened on TV.

#107 Mark

Instead, now our enemies can use these tapes to support all of the claims they've been making about us. All of the lies they've been trupeting on AlJazeera, that most Iraqis wouldn't have believed before, will now start to seem believable.

Oh cm'on! Since when is evidence to "support" their hatred ever required? And just how do you know that Iraqis wouldn't believe the worst of us without the evidence. These folks are first cousins to the people who wallow in antisemitic crap about Jews being responsible for 9/11. You've westernized these people out of all recognition. They're not empiricists.

#118 Globular Custard 4/30/2004 11:01AM PST 117 Tamar If they are coercing prisoners to divulge critical information to prevent a terrorist attack, why on god's green earth would they take photos like this?

EFFECTIVE Psy-Ops!

Why would we (in Israel) put out information about Hamas people or PLO minions "cooperating" with our forces??? Why would we broadcast their interviews???

And just WHO is more effective??? We (the IDF) or the USA???

Let the military fight the wars...leave the civilians (State & CIA) OUT!!!

Speaking of prisioners and treatment. Have you guys seen the viscious treatment of Russian and Serb soldiers by the Islamists in chechnya, Afghanistan, Kosovo and Kazakhstan? Not saying I agree with those ventures by either side, but the Islamists were beheading troops left and right for fun. It's disgusting treatment of prisioners.

#120 RufusLK

How could we have rounded up Saddam, shaked and baked his sons, or boxed his deck of jokers without willing support from the populace?

Frankly, I've forgotten. But I doubt we got that intel for free, or because we'd won some hearts and minds. I'll bet we paid plenty for it. What about all those generous rewards we're offering? Appeals to hearts and minds or to wallets?

EFFECTIVE Psy-Ops!

But why is it effective psy-ops to release photographs of this episode? What is the desired effect on the insurgents? What is the desired impact on the arab "street"?

God knows, a good number of Arab men would probably *want* to be captured by US forces after seeing these pictures. ;) (Sorry, I need to lighten up)

Even if I agree that this is a good interrogation method, I still don't see why they whould risk taking photos. Also, by implication, you are saying that the military deliberately hatched this plot, deliberately took photos, for the sole purpose of broadcasting some sort of message.

It just seems a bit farfetched to me. Also, not being a military man, it does seem wierd to me that low level MP's would be doing the interrogation. Wouldn't you bring in some specialist or higher-up do do it?

While I believe that should this story be true, punishment should be fitting...before listening too closely to the inflamed (what's new) arab "street", don't forget that even should this BE true, it is still a far cry from the treatment that arabs recieve from their brother arabs.

The statement read that "Torture and other cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment continue to be practiced systematically in detention centers. While the Egyptian authorities have taken some positive steps in the field of human rights over the past year, the authorities have failed to introduce urgently-needed remedies to an endemic problem."

here.

The report detailed numerous abuses against prisoners at Wadi Al Gadid including torture, solitary confinement and routine acts designed to humiliate the prisoners and their infrequent visitors. According to HRCAP, little has changed since 1995.

here.

"They kept me awake all night in a cell of four square metres and tortured me. This continued for four nights," the daily newspaper Iran quoted him as telling the government commission investigating the incident

here.

This is a set back for America but not a disaster. Yes, the Arabs are going to howl and play this over and over and rant about how evil America is. We just need to point out that those who are responsible for this will be punished and justice will be served. Unlike in the Arab world, where regimes promote behavior much worse than this and everybody looks the other way.

Dennis Prager made an interesting comment that in the Arab world honor and face are more important than good and right. This issue will come up again during this War.

#102 Rayra

Expect it to be incorporated into the 'Vietnam' simile before the Sunday political talk shows are finished.

Absolutely. That's the whole idea: the more parallels the media can draw to Vietnam, the more joyous they'll trumpet Vietnam! Quagmire!
Bush didn't have a plan!
They are desperate to play the Vietnam card in order to defeat Bush.
I think the ones reponsible for the mis-treatment of prisoners should be judged according to military rules. Let them be judged and let justice take its course.

But this new incident is used as another tool to undermine Bush and "Bush's War", along with the 911 Commission, the publishing of the coffin photos, the Nightline reading of the names of fallen soldiers*, the Clark and Woodward books, and the relentless Kerry grandstanding (see "war attrocities" in Vietnam).

*Did Nightline have any similar program during the Clinton war on Milosevic? Was Milosevic threatening the US? Did he have weapons of mass destruction? Has he invaded neighboring countries? Has the ethnic violence stopped to this day? Has Al-Qaida infiltrated the Muslims of Bosnia and Kosovo?

Our liberal majority media is behaving more and more like Al-Jazeera: incitement against Bush at any opportunity and from any angle, in order to discredit Bush in the upcoming elections.

Last night I watched a Frontline program on PBS, "The Jesus Factor" - and I must say, whatever the intention of that documentary was, I like Bush even more. People are not stupid and they see what needs to be seen: a man of character and conviction, someone you can trust. Someone who isn't going to confuse right and wrong.

I hope not to see the day when Kerry wins, and America surrenders to the corrupt UN, amidst terror attacks on American soil, while ME experts from ivory towers explain why we deserve it, and find Israel to be the "root cause" of all terrorism.

/rant over

The reason these pictures came to light wa because a member of the US military who was aware of what was happening reported it to his superiors because he "couldn't live with what was happening. It was repugnant to the sensibilities of a member of the US military. He did a good thing by bringing it to the attention of the authorities. I see someone has finally called Titan and Ciai what they really are - mercenaries. About time.

Even if I agree that this is a good interrogation method,

Make that "Even if I were to agree..."

The pictures are so tame that the Arabs won't even blink!!

There is some truth here, Tamar.

You are talking about people who are used to witnessing public beheadings (See Saudi Arabia).

You can bet however, that a Muslim man watching a video of an American female forcing them to form a naked pyramid will have some impact.

I'm appalled that some of you have taken a leaf out of David Irving's book and denied in the face of convincing evidence that these soldiers have serious charges to answer.

And as for whether they will face justice. What of the civilian contractor accused of raping a mid-teens boy in the prison? He can't be tried by the military and it's doubtful the coalition will allow him to be tried under Iraqi law.

Using high calibre machine guns and heavy munitions in Falluja. What is the military thinking? I thought the Brits and Israeli's had trained them in urban combat.

Did Nightline have any similar program during the Clinton war on Milosevic?

If they did, it would have entailed reading the names of zero US forces killed. I do recall though, a lot of handwringing when they shot down our first ever drone. And when we rudely took out a bridge or two without the civility of cordoning off traffic first.

In a free speech society we're going to be constantly challeneged by those with misgivings about the direction we are going. Better to unify our efforts through trying to assure those with misgivings rather than declaring war on our own. That way you keep the opposition down to a more harmless handful of extremists.

TO: Patrick
RE: Wrong!

"As I posted elsewhere, there was a great misunderstanding of the photos released. It's all honorable and understandable. The dude standing on the box with the wires attached is simply a reinactment of a scene in Scrooged where they turn the young lad Calvin into a human Christmas tree." -- Patrick (#5)

He's not a human Christmas tree. He's a Muslim. They don't have such.

I think he's participating in a prop blast ceremony; an honorable tradition amongst the Army's officers of paratroopers.

I remember being wired and lit up like that myself when I was a young second lieutenant in the 82d Airborne.

However, admittedly, I think it is in very bad form that the prison guards put people through this sort of thing involuntarily. And they should be duly dealth with. It's an offense to every prop-blasted officer I know.

I'll bet they didn't even offer the 'honorees' French 75s to dull their senses; even if imbibing alcohol in copious quantities is against their religious beliefs.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Fury from the Sky! -- 508 Parachute Infantry Regiment]

fficials from other US agencies, including the Central Intelligence Agency and Federal Bureau of Investigation, regularly went to the prison. In a letter home that CBS obtained, Sgt Frederick said military intelligence officials said he was doing a "great job". The army's investigation reportedly shows that military investigators asked untrained reservists to prepare inmates for interrogation, but offered little guidance. Because of the success rate of "breaking" prisoners prepared by the unit now under investigation, they were encouraged to continue their practices, Sgt Frederick said. Sgt Frederick's lawyer said the CIA encouraged the behaviour.

They were told to prepare the prisoners for interrogation. They obeyed orders!

TO: Fenian Boy
RE: .50 Cals in Combat

"Using high calibre machine guns and heavy munitions in Falluja. What is the military thinking?" -- Fenian Boy

They were thinking that the .50 cal would destroy the equipment the enemy soldiers were wearing or carrying. Or the facilities in which they were hiding.

Hope that helps...

Regards,

Chuck(le)

To Chuck

Cluster bombs may have that result but they are indiscriminate and therefore should not be used in urban areas (unless you want to knowingly commit an attrocity)

I thought the Brits and Israeli's had trained them in urban combat.

I would consider this statement insulting if it weren't so ignorant. Israel exercised enormous care when it invaded Jenin to root out terrorists. Some say it took too much care and put its soldiers at risk.

#137

You are right. Many reservists with no training were being asked to serve in this sensitive position. Some asked for guidance but never got it.

I think those higher in the chain should be bearing a lot of the brunt of punishment for this disgraceful and success-risking debacle.

#91 Rayra: Spelling hell perhaps?
Mercenaries. This isn't some building site, where the general contractor has "contracted" out a flooring job. We pay them to be there, in a military conflict, in military roles. If you don't like that word, maybe babysitter would be a nicer word to use.

Our troops are making mistakes, because they were not trained to be babysitters. The fact that they can do it is a testament to the their flexibility. Bring in real babysitters - I'm certain Wackenhut and Premier Custodial would love to get in the action.

The school of americas- or whatever we are calling it now, school of babysitters perhaps, is a facility to "school" or friends in the "Americas." It was right in the name. The bad eggs that came out of there where their bad eggs, not ours. Of course we have a great history of training and supporting the wrong people (cough osama-who? haven't seen those guys in ages) but it makes for better propaganda. Oops, wrong word there: image. Better image.

They were told to prepare the prisoners for interrogation. They obeyed orders!

But Tamar, these reservist MP's or whatever are going to face 10 years in Leavenworth as a result of the military releasing the photos and encouraging their behavior.

If they in fact were following orders it makes this whole episode worse, not better, from a PR point of view.

Personally, I am in favor of using whatever means possible to extract critical, life-saving information from apprehended terrorists. I agree with Alan Dershowitz on this one. As you say, these prisoners were not physically harmed and if they ended up coughing up the goods on future attacks, then hey, I judge not.

At this time though, we do not know if they were instructed to prepare the prisoners for interrogation. That is merely what the accused MP's are claiming, most likely with the hope of evading responsibility.

More investigation needs to be done into this incident so that all the facts are clear.

143 Globular Custard 4/30/2004 11:51AM PST

If we had a few people like you in my country...I'd be dead already.

If we had a few people like you in my country...I'd be dead already.

Well, I can see this conversation is over. Honestly, I expected more from you. Toodles.

TO: Fenian Boy
RE: Cluster Bombs & Attrocities

"Cluster bombs may have that result but they are indiscriminate and therefore should not be used in urban areas (unless you want to knowingly commit an attrocity)" -- Fenian Boy

Please show me where cluster bombs are banned by the Geneva Convention and I might accept your comment about their use, even in a built-up area, is an 'attrocity'.

Also, in order for the Geneva Convention to apply, both contestants need to be signatory to it. That's why US used flame throwers and fire-bombing air-raids against Imperial Japan during WWII and not against the Nazis. Imperial Japan was had not signed it, as I understand the situation.

But back on topic...

RE: Civilian Contractors

"What of the civilian contractor accused of raping a mid-teens boy in the prison? He can't be tried by the military and it's doubtful the coalition will allow him to be tried under Iraqi law." -- Fenian Boy

If your report is accurate, he'd be tried by a federal magistrate, being a civilian. It's not like civilian contractors working for the military overseas in a war zone are not subject to any law. They could get away with murder, neh?

[Note: Federal magistrates are responsible for judgement of federal cases for crimes that occur on territory under federal jusidiction when the accused is not member of the military and there is no federal court established in the area to hear the case or not status of forces agreement with a soverign nation.]

Hope that helps...

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Remember. Once the pin has been pulled, Mr. Hand Grenade is no longer your friend.]

What of the civilian contractor accused of raping a mid-teens boy in the prison? He can't be tried by the military and it's doubtful the coalition will allow him to be tried under Iraqi law." -- Fenian Boy

Now try Google...it was a (Heaven forbid...) IRAQI ARAB translator accused of that bit of buggery.

What it costs for an army of one soldier:

Wire and hood -- $2

Internet connection -- $19

Digital camera -- $199

Embarrassing the American people in front of the entire world -- priceless

Let's hear it for gender equality. Brigadier General Karpinski may have just shown women that they too can become war criminals.

Seriously, when life hands you a lemon, make lemonade. I hope that the court martials can be televised (with a pool feed), so Iraqis can see the superiority of the American judicial system. Iraqis (and the wider Arab world) need to see our military justice system in action. These court martials can be an opportunity to take market share away from al-Jazeera and al-Arabiya. They also give an excellent opportunity to show why our military doesn't need to come under the jurisdiction of that Euro-smug International Criminal Court.

The reason why we are better off than the Arab world isn't because we are better people, but because we have a better political system including laws that punish lynch mobs and torturers. Now if only Arab satellite television could stop inciting their lynch mobs and Arab political regimes start prosecuting their torturers...

Personally, I am in favor of using whatever means possible to extract critical, life-saving information from apprehended terrorists. I agree with Alan Dershowitz on this one. As you say, these prisoners were not physically harmed and if they ended up coughing up the goods on future attacks, then hey, I judge not

So am I. But done sparingly and intelligently enough to minimize the retaliatory price on our own. In the right hands, such interrogations might have been done to save lives. But here it looks like it was a plaything of the guards, who had absolutely no business in making a Kodak moment out of their illegal acts.

Some of the scenes made it look like the prisoner had no knowledge of the insult, which would make it of no coercive value. The scene where the US woman seems to insult the hooded male prisoner's genitals seems totally worthless militarily while apt to provide years of devastating Arab acrimony. Totally harmful to our frail alliances.

"...Raping a mid-teens boy in the prison?"

A "Mid-teens" male in this neighbourhood is called a "Father" or a "militant"...but never, ever, a "boy".

Tamar

Globular Custard is one of the good guys...shalom.

OT, but important:what do you think the results of the referendum will be Sunday?

"Torture"???

And may God bless and protect the US Soldiers serving their country while armchair defeatists and appeasers stay at home talking absolute BS!

151 NY Nana 4/30/2004 12:05PM PST

Sharon will be on his way out, and our Socialist Labour Party will be on their way in...to the delight of Colon Powell and Condy.

"...Raping a mid-teens boy in the prison?"

A "Mid-teens" male in this neighbourhood is called a "Father" or a "militant"...but never, ever, a "boy".

Yeah, and we all know that it's A-OK to rape a father or militant in prison!

Hi #140 Globular Custard.

I read that to mean the Brits and Israelis are more skilled in urban warfare.

Did I read it wrong?

Canuckistan

yawn

You're not even trying are you?

OT, but important:what do you think the results of the referendum will be Sunday?

My opinion is that it doesn't really matter. If Likud endorses the pullout then it happens.

If Likud does not endorse the pullout then Sharon disbands the coalition, Likud breaks into two parties, with some going to Cherut, some going to Moledet, some going to Shinui, and the rest dividing into Likud Aleph and Likud Bet. Sharon then forms a coalition with Labor (which has been yammering for a pullout for years), Shinui, and Likud Aleph. Then the pullout happens anyway.

Sharon will stay in power. It's a done deal.

The program also reported that the Army's investigation of the case included a statement from an Iraqi detainee who charges that a translator hired to work at the prison raped a male juvenile prisoner.

"..a translator hired to work at the prison raped a male juvenile prisoner."

Got it??? Are Iraqis "US Forces"???

US Soldiers "Not nice" claim the RoP

TO: TAMAR
RE: Clarification

"...it was a (Heaven forbid...) IRAQI ARAB translator accused of that bit of buggery." -- TAMAR

Well...that puts an interesting skew on the case. A non-American national working under a US government contract for the military.

Too bad Fenin Boy wasn't so forthcoming with that little bit of information. Makes him look like some kinda spin-merchant.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[What they are telling you may be important. What they are not telling you can be vital.]

#155 Roger

Yes I see I got a bit testy. Although, the Marines hardly need training in urban combat.

#33 upton
Ranten:

Let the crusade begin! We'll teach them the right way. In fact, we should bring them over to school of americas, and train them what a superior culture is all about.

You MORON, you can't even READ? My point is that by how we are handling this--the prosecution began a month before the pictures leaked--we are SHOWING how superior our culture is! Failure to get that point, and bring in the Crusades shows a WILLFUL STUPIDITY on your part. Whatever your politics, you should be ashamed at such a lack of reasoning ability.

Does our culture produce hundreds of would be murderers that wish they had been in on the 11 Sep 01 "great victory?" NO!

Does our culture dance in the streets when we hear of 3,000 non-combatants being murdered? NO!

Does our culture cheer at tapes of the beheadings of captured prisoners? NO! (And a BIG Hat tip to #124 Axiom aka Iron Chef for the reminder.)

Does our culture simply expect that our "leaders" can do this to us at their whim? NO!

Our culture views this crap as WRONG, their "culture" views these as acts that are perfectly acceptable if done to the likes of you.

And you belittle your own culture all the while. What a wonderful product of the "modern, liberal education" you are. Heck, we treat our enemies even better that their "culture" treats its "citizens" and subjects.

BAH! Begone!

Just as Watergate was one of America's finest hours (we forced a President out of office with nary a tank in sight!), this too shows how American Justice shines above every Islamic "Paradise" and the culture of the decent American Citizen shines above that of every Islamic "culture."

BAH! again I say!

Think I'm wrong, "Upton?" Fine -- my email link is there. I'll pay for your ONE WAY ticket to any predominantly Islamic country, as long as you'll STAY there!

TO: TAMAR
RE: I Wonder

What is the punishment, under Shar'ia for homosexuality? Death by stoning or something like that?

I wonder if the accused would rather be tried by a federal magistrate...

Regards,

Chuck(le)

You're not even trying are you?

Nah. "Fisking" LGF'ers is like shooting fish in a barrel.

#148 Zed
Seriously, when life hands you a lemon, make lemonade. I hope that the court martials can be televised (with a pool feed), so Iraqis can see the superiority of the American judicial system. Iraqis (and the wider Arab world) need to see our military justice system in action. These court martials can be an opportunity to take market share away from al-Jazeera and al-Arabiya. They also give an excellent opportunity to show why our military doesn't need to come under the jurisdiction of that Euro-smug International Criminal Court.

Well said! YOU certainly get my point. In fact, you may have said it better!

Sort of OT (and I am not so sure of the how valid NIEN is)

[Link: homelandsecurityus.com...]

They are claiming to have a translated message from the "commander of the insurgent forces in Fallujah".

they will face a severe new terror from the beginning when they attack everywhere, and as in the last days when they attacked everywhere, and they received a severe blow when the stormed the laboratory for the industrial chemical items and the agricultural chemicals, and they exploded on them and killed many of them, and burned their carrier. Our great Lord is revengeful.

Our men plan something that is greater, and will not say in these messages but our men are senior and will participate in the plan and others like it, God willing.

hmmm, let see pull the troups out, fly the b2 over...

#139 Fenian Boy

When did we use a cluster bomb in Fallujah or any other built up area?

The Mk118 (BLU112) bomblet from the Mk7 Rockeye dispenser has about 5% 'dud' rate out of a payload of 247 (worse over heavy tree canopies). Thus potentially creating an EOD problem. This invites comparison to anti-personnel mines which some people consider indiscriminate when deployed in unmarked fields.

Of course you recognize that the US or Iraq are parties the 1949 Geneva Protocols and do not recognize the 1977 expansion which is the source of most of the complaints.

Canuckistan

Nah. "Fisking" LGF'ers is like shooting fish in a barrel.

It's a good thing for the fish that your gun is unloaded.

{sigh}
Another Gordonite, but not as interesting.

TO: Fenian Boy
RE: Iraq?

"Of course you recognize that the US or Iraq are parties the 1949 Geneva Protocols and do not recognize the 1977 expansion which is the source of most of the complaints." -- Fenian Boy

Iraq, yes, if they renew when the new government is formed. But these people in Fallujah are not Iraq.

RE: Cluster Munitions

You have not proven they are banned by the Geneva Convention.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Rufus Custard, I said: I thought the Brits and Israeli's had trained them in urban combat.

You said: Iwould consider this statement insulting if it weren't so ignorant. Israel exercised enormous care when it invaded Jenin to root out terrorists. Some say it took too much care and put its soldiers at risk.

What is ignorant about the statement? The US military has received urban combat training from both these countries. But they have chosen not to utilise it. Hence the high civilian casualty rate. i think you have misread what i was saying.

If you still consider my comment ignorant demonstrate the fact of its ignorance and then I'll have a clearer picture of what you're trying to say.

Rufusleeking makes a good point the command structure has broken down when officers are taking orders from non military personnel. hose responsible should account for this. Plus those who claimed in their defence that they weren't familiar with the Geneva Convention should have known that what they are alleged to have done went beyond the bounds of acceptable behaviour.

Really? Are you really superior to the "Arabs"? Isn't that the very definition of racism... that one group of people are superior to an entire other group of people?

There are plenty of wonderful Arabs in this world and plenty of evil Americans (and vice versa). Is this really a shock to anyone? The horror on some peoples' hearts always comes out in war.

#170 Zephyr

Who are you talking about?

Globular custard

"I agree with Alan Dershowitz on this one. As you say, these prisoners were not physically harmed and if they ended up coughing up the goods on future attacks, then hey, I judge not."

Judge not is the operative phrase here I guess. Detention without trial, no right to see your, family or lawyer and the occasional session of torture lite. Ah democracy in bloom!

Chuckle, so you're telling me this Iraqi translator (that's news to me) will be tried in the US based on a US Statute? I'm intrigued.

I am talking about the large number of Americans on this board trying to claim that Americans are superior to Arabs...

#170 Zephyr

Really? Are you really superior to the "Arabs"? Isn't that the very definition of racism... that one group of people are superior to an entire other group of people?

There are plenty of wonderful Arabs in this world and plenty of evil Americans (and vice versa). Is this really a shock to anyone? The horror on some peoples' hearts always comes out in war.

YES! The proof is that OUR society is shocked by, horrified at, and unwilling to tolerate such behavior, even when done to our enemies!

Just how can you justify saying that a society that TOLERATES such things being done to its own members and even CELEBRATES it being done to others is in any way our equal?

Sure, there are plenty of Arabs who are "Good" by our definition. See The Eqyptian Coptic Church, for instance. They're Arabs. As a Christian, I view them as my brothers. Does that make me a racist?

This "Racism" charge you all throw out so willy-nilly makes me sick. I used to be a racist--I was RAISED as a racist! I know what racism is, one heck of a lot better than you do. I am no longer a racist. The USAF cured me of most of it. The rest is being flushed because it is evil, it is wrong, and it is against the teachings of my Lord, Jesus Christ. Saying a culture that glorifies evil is inferior to one that rejects such evil is NOT racisim!

#173 Zephyr

I suggest that you read a little more around here before you make sweeping generalizations about our sweeping generalizations. Just some advice.

In an internal government letter written before the war, the British Armed forces minister said that such targeting (using cluster munitions) would be a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

Doctors in Falluja have reported the use of cluster bombs there by US mmilitary.

That aside the civilain casualties from using heavy munitions when you should be senting in troops to take the city district by district and street by street will be enormous and will do nothing to win hearts and minds — essential if the coalitioln is to succedd in Iraq. Top military figures in Britain are livid about the way the US is interpreting "counter insurgency" tactics. The way US troops are dealing with the situation is starkly different to the British (relatively successful) approach.
Zephyr's last comment was one of the rare sane and rational observations I have read here. Respect.

So many who play the race card have no principled understanding of the legitimacy of criticising the chosen actions of a given country, nationality, culture or any group, as opposed to criticising someone's genetics.

One's genetics are blameless. Choices are praiseworthy or blameworthy, as the case may be.

#176 Fenian Boy,

Doctors in Falluja have reported the use of cluster bombs there by US mmilitary

Link?

Top military figures in Britain are livid about the way the US is interpreting "counter insurgency" tactics.

Link?

Sure, there are plenty of Arabs who are "Good" by our definition. See The Eqyptian Coptic Church, for instance. They're Arabs. As a Christian, I view them as my brothers. Does that make me a racist?

Well actually...the Copts (Means "Egyptian") residency in the land of Pyramids pre-dates the Arab invasion of Egypt by several thousand years.

"Top military figures in Britain are livid about the way the US is interpreting "counter insurgency" tactics."

Don't make me laugh! The Paras and SAS must be wondering what all the fuss is about.

I'm not going to blame the non-coms, but the brass in the pentagon and the white house flacks who assured us last year, that besides the Saddam loyalists, the Iraqis would welcome us with open arms as if nationalism and Arabism never existed!

I'm not a racists, but a cultural chauvinists. Arab culture is backwards and brutal, and for all our faults, we are way better, Check out the immigration stats: not too many Americans emigrating to Arab/Islamic countries but the opposite isn't true!

Who gave the photos to Al Jazeera?

#179 Tamar:

Whatever. Bottom line is still that there are plenty of perfectly decent christian arabs -- a minority among arabs for sure, but decent people none the less who we should not treat as enemy simply because of ethnic origin.

That would be racism, pure and simple.

Muslims are our enemies -- 1.2 billion savages, including people of all possible racial origins.

This is not war against arabs any more than it is a war against terror. It is war between west and ISLAM.

Sadly, the west seems to be divided between the majority brainwashed by the leftist liberal media who think the so-called "moderate muslim majority" is not our enemy, and the racist minority who think that arabs as an ethnic group are the enemy.

Ok, I go out for a bit and now I read all that's been posted. Let's start

#87 Shiplord Kirel - yep, spot on. and ThanX! I didn't have time to do such a decent job, just to express my opinion. so, as our Navy compatriots would say, you are a mustang? My compliments

#98 Rayra - Yep. People READ this thing. I and the Shiplord (and who knows how many others) ARE STILL SUBJECT TO THE UCMJ, even tho retired. Think about it.

#104 Adam - FOAD

#117 Tamar - Trust me, we have a lot of better ways of getting info out of people. * Graduate of "certain" US survival schools*

#161 Ranten - Bravo

Oh, I see Charles has a different entry ref. this subject... I guess I'll go over there

Mcgyver, out

This shows what so called civilised people of Bushpanzee states treat people who they went to liberate. Wow, if this is democratic and civilised, I rather live in dictatorship state. Shame on you. America - civilised, free and democratic my a*se.

I'm thinking Bushpanzee Smacker is an junior jihadi.

Hey! Aren't there other cool games with iraqi prisoners? Don't forget, these prisoners fought against democracy, against America and against our sons. Our military represents, in many ways, what is best about us.
Humiliation and whining are Arabs' art. It is just another campaign. Fuck them!

#109 uncle dave 4/30/2004 10:41AM PST

I took no offense, and I gladly accept your gracious apology, sir.

Yep, you'd rather live in a dictatorship than in America because (a) some soldiers humiliated prisoners, and said soldiers (b) will be subject to justice.

Yep, it's fully understandable.

Have you considered Mr. Holland's Opus?

Hi.

#38 Robb

"For me, nothing else outside of an outright condemnation is acceptable from any of my fellow VRWC members. Condemn it and leave it at that. Trying to soften this horrific act with an "I know we did but so did they" to me is reprehensible."

Damn straight.

The immorality, the vileness, the treacherous stupidity of these people defies belief. They have harmed the war effort that hundreds of their countrymen so far have died for, they have seriously soiled our honor, they have painted a big target on the backsides of our women, and men, in combat, should they become prisoners of war ... I can't count all the ways this is immoral, illegal, and unacceptable.

I don't want to hear about any "but".

Roger #176

RE: Link?

Check any of the Commie rightwing leftist mainstream Murdoch-owned media.

Tamar, laugh all the way to the newsagents, pick up the paper, start to read and then... stop. SAS and Paras aren't the top brass or didn't you know that.

#192 Fenian Boy, I challenged you to provide links to reference your statements. You couldn't do it.

Apparently you haven't been in the blog world very long. One rule of engagement is that you need to provide links on subjects that you do not have first hand knowledge or where you just write whatever you feel like and someone challenges you for links.

Roger I didn't do it yet. Be patient and the links will be provided.

Roger,
clusterbombs in Fallujah Doctors' claimIrate British Military Chiefs

Happy reading.

Is this really going to increase violence from an enraged arab street. I don't think so.

Fenian Boy (#196),

Your first link doesn't work, but I did follow it back to the source, Electronic Iraq which we find out is:

Electronic Iraq is a news portal on the US-Iraq crisis published by respected Middle East alternative news publishers, The Electronic Intifada (EI) and incorporating on the ground reports from veteran antiwar campaigners Voices in the Wilderness.

Here's another blogworld hint, just because you can supply a link (sort of), doesn't prove your case. Some sources aren't exactly rock solid. I can provide you links to detailed descriptions of the alien lizard headquarters buried under the Denver International Airport, don't mean its true.

Although I did get a kick out of this Electronic Intifada front page headline:

Drawing Caterpillar Out Of Its Corporate Cocoon: Company Should Examine Its Role in Mideast Violence

"Rally round the flag boys and lets put a stop to the violent ME bulldozers!"

Geepers, here is the information i tried to link to.

And you're right some sites aren't that reputable eg Ann Coulter's.

As far as it Electronic Iraq. It is reporting a claim and I have never said otherwise.

As long as you guys are rallying around that flag - and i make sure there's no stars and stripes near me — I'm pretty happy.

Revolt grows as MPs and military back diplomats' fears

No 10 Critics 'ignore realities on the ground'

Michael White and Richard Norton-Taylor
Wednesday April 28, 2004
The Guardian

Tony Blair and Jack Straw joined forces yesterday to reject the criticisms of their Middle East policies by 52 former diplomats as "unbalanced" and likely to weaken Britain's influence further by driving a wedge between London and Washington.

As they accused their critics of looking for "perfect solutions instead of working with the realities on the ground", unease over the threat to the Middle East peace plan led 108 MPs - 87 of them Labour - to endorse a Commons motion condemning President George Bush's pro-Israeli comments.

The diplomats' criticism is echoed by Britain's military chiefs, who have privately expressed deep concern about US tactics in Iraq.

The diplomats' unprecedented letter voiced "deepening concern" over the occupation of Iraq and Mr Blair's apparent endorsement of the unilateral Israeli plan for Palestine. It prompted speculation that it must have been written with the encouragement of senior serving Foreign Office diplomats.

Yesterday it appeared to divide the diplomatic and academic community.

"It's a bit harsh to accuse him of not acknowledging their concerns," said one eminent former mandarin who denied that the prime minister had resiled from the Middle East road map, or endorsed the Israeli plan. He called the 52 "ivory tower" critics.

Others complained that the diplomats' letter made no reference to terrorist attacks against Israel. That underlined the majority's professional ties to the Arab world as "a cabal of Arabists", they argued.

Mr Blair was guarded in his comments. With Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian prime minister, at his side at No 10, he said people were "personally entitled to criticise" but insisted Britain had a duty to help Iraq find a stable future and to help achieve a two-state solution for Israel and Palestine.

"I do not think any discussion of that issue is right unless we balance the suffering of both sides," he stressed.

In their letter, the former diplomats said if Britain was unable to exert "real influence" with the US administration, it should abandon its support for policies which were "doomed to failure".

But Mr Straw said on BBC Radio 2: "It is very important for us to try to work with the United States and not to have a polarisation that would weaken our influence and weaken the influence of Europe."

But the concern about British policies is shared by senior military figures. One defence source, referring to the US military attacks on Falluja and Najaf, told the Guardian: "We do things differently."

"The British should be saying to the Americans, 'If we are to be involved then we'll do it our way,'" echoed Colonel Christopher Langton, of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, referring to the holy Shia city of Najaf.

Despite Mr Blair's comment that "the advice we have is that we have sufficient troops to do the job", senior officers are drawing up plans to send more troops to Iraq. They are also making it plain that they do not want to operate under US command. "There are severe worries if we operate under the American way of doing things, and getting all the flak, then it will spread to Basra," a defence source said.

Britain has about 7,700 troops centred on Basra, a distinct zone of control insisted on by Sir Michael (now Lord) Boyce, chief of the defence staff before the invasion.

Get a load of this.

America's shame

Leader
Saturday May 1, 2004
The Guardian

A single image retains the power to shock, even in this multi-media, broadband, 24-hour rolling news age. The picture of an Iraqi prisoner held by US forces in Abu Ghraib prison, forced to stand on a block with electrical wires attached to his body, clothed in a Ku Klux Klan-style hood, is more than just another embarrassment for the Bush administration. This and the other images, of naked Iraqi prisoners being abused and humiliated by their US captors, awakens every dark suspicion of US intentions in Iraq, and is the most effective recruiting sergeant for the forces of resistance inside and outside Iraq. This is not just a colossal blunder by the US - it inaugurates a whole new level of fears and dangers, both in Iraq and among many Muslims throughout the world.

The events inside Abu Ghraib prison opens a shameful episode of US ill-treatment of its prisoners, and has provoked worldwide condemnation. The handful of images - shown on US television on Thursday evening and now reproduced around the globe - also provide graphic evidence in much of the Arab and Muslim world of western sexual decadence and corruption. Since sodomy is often regarded as an extreme humiliation in societies such as Iraq, the pictures and allegations of rape will only confirm and personify the ill-effects of the US invasion and occupation.

To make matters even worse, it appears this is not an isolated incident. The US army reported last month that 17 soldiers, including a brigadier-general, had been removed from duty for mistreating prisoners. One of the soldiers being court-martialled, Ivan Frederick, a reservist who is a prison officer in civilian life, told CBS's 60 Minutes programme that preparation was poor and supervision was weak. Soldiers trained only in administrative duties were ordered to become military police. Private contractors were hired by the Pentagon to undertake interrogation, while subject to no applicable military or civil laws.

Even before the Abu Ghraib photographs were published, a reputable survey this week had found that 71% of Iraqis now regard coalition troops as a force of occupation, and 60% want the US and its allies to withdraw from Iraq immediately. That goodwill deficit will not improve, however comprehensive the actions taken by US commanders to punish the guards of Abu Ghraib.

The US army has put a lethal weapon into the hands of its enemies. It is clutching at the weakest of straws to discount these revolting abuses by comparing them with those of Saddam Hussain's regime. The US and Britain are rightly held up to a higher standard of behaviour, since that is their justification for invading Iraq. The events of Abu Ghraib invoke John Stuart Mill's insight that civilised societies succumb to their previously vanquished opponents only after losing their moral strength. "If this be so, the sooner such a civilisation receives notice to quit the better," Mill warned.

#200 Fenian Boy,

It is not America's shame if the individuals who commited the POW abuse war crimes are punished severely. In fact it speaks to the civility and uniqueness of democracies that such crimes are punished.

Instead of spending all your days trying to attack the best this world has ever seen, why not study history and gain an appreciation for the great democracies of our era? Become a part of it. It's easy to sit and spin pre-skewed conspiracy theories but that is really an unproductive position to take all your life. Can you imagine what this world would be like if all of the democracies were replaced with dictator run totalitarian states and war lords?

I don't see where you get the idea the British top military figures are 'livid'. They're understandably positioning to have command and control of their part of stabilizing Iraq particularly in Basra. The Guardian article "Revolt grows as MPs and military back diplomats' fears" is a jumble of quotes and text in quotations. This is always a sign the authors are trying to to achieve an agenda instead of reporting. They are not good writers; must be why they write for the Guardian. "one eminent former mandarin" Huh? Who the hell is this guy? A former public official in the Chinese Empire?

It kind of disconcerts me to know that our soldiers enjoy taking pictures of themselves with naked, hooded men simulating oral sex in the background.

It seems as if some of our "boys" are a bit light in the loafers...

AWaPo: Iraqis Seething About This

This is the playground paradigm in action. The really brutal bully scares the teacher so she leaves him alone.