LGF

The Horror

Wed, May 5, 2004 at 8:30:26 am PDT

Iowahawk News Service has uncovered even more shocking evidence of “torture” at the Abu Ghraib prison: New Iraq Shocker: Prisoners Forced to Wear Beanies, Swallow Goldfish.

***

BAGHDAD - US CentCom braced for an international human rights backlash today, as it released another raft of photos detailing widespread inmate abuse and humiliation at the hands of US guards at the notorious Al Ghraib prison.

In the newly released photos, masked Iraqi prisoners are shown forming human pyramids, stuffing Volkswagens, eating live goldfish and pounding ‘beer bongs,’ all under the supervision of laughing US guards.

“The occupiers forced me go on a ‘snipe hunt’,” said a tearful Khalid al-Husseini, a former shredder operator under Saddam who was recently released from Al Ghraib after a three week incarceration. “Yet, I was not told for over three hours that there were no snipes to be found, as they were but a cruel invention of the occupiers!”

Another former prisoner, Hassan Atwah, said American prisoner abuses were widespread.

“Guards used interrogation methods including ‘Bong 99’, ‘Quarters’ and the fearsome ‘Jello shots,’” said the ex-Fedayeen commander. “later we we blindfolded and forced to feel Tupperware bowls filled with eyeballs and worms.”

Humilation was a common technique of guards, according to Abdul Abdullah. “Occupiers are make me to wear a beanie-hat and go on burqqa raid of woman prison,” he said, visibly shaken.

Abdullah, who spend over eight years in a Saddam torture cell, said his treatment under American captors was “much worse.”

“I am made to be like lowly woman, begging for woman clothing from lowly woman,” he explained. “For Iraq man, to be made to be as a woman is beneath even the animal, the insect. I would rather be shot in the head than be treated like stupid Iraq woman.”

CentCom investigators say the abuse probe will expand to cover rumors of short-sheeting, shoe polish on prison toilet seats, and routine sleep tortures involving shaving cream and warm glasses of water.

The recent revelations brought a harsh outcry from the international press. Under a giant banner reading “SHAME,” the Mirror newspaper of London ran a late edition featuring full-page photos of hooded Iraqi prisoners lighting flatulence and helplessly flailing at pinatas. The broadsheet Independent ran a related story implicating British troops in widespread prisoner-pantsing, charges that were denied by the Defence Ministry.

Promised disciplinary action by US Military officials also did little to placate human rights organizations, including Human Rights Watch, which immediately called for international sanctions against the US, including “double secret probation.”

The widening scandal has also attracted the attention of the United Nations. Secretary General Kofi Annan said he would refer the matter to the UN Human Rights Commission.

“Hopefully, we can schedule full hearings after the seating of its new Sudanese member,” said Annan.

US Senator Joseph Biden of the Senate Armed Service Committee also called for Congressional oversight, saying that “this scandal reaches all the way to the top.”

“It may be mere coincidence,” said Biden, “but these tortures are eerily similar to the Skull and Bones initiation.”

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378 comments

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1 Gordon  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:33:24am

What those soldiers did at the prison in Iraq was shameful, and all the stupid parodies from people like Iowahawk, and lame rationalizations by Cox & Forkum, and "it was bad, BUT" posts from Charles and blood-curdling "they deserve it" seetho-posts from the LGF faithful won't change that.

It doesn't mean we have to get out Iraq tomorrow. Our mission must continue.

2 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:34:02am

LOL


Bluto: "Your Delta Tau Chi name is...Pinto."
Pinto: "Why Pinto?"
Bluto: {belch} "WHY NOT?"

3 Meow Mix  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:35:39am
"I am made to be like lowly woman, begging for woman clothing from lowly woman," he explained. "For Iraq man, to be made to be as a woman is beneath even the animal, the insect. I would rather be shot in the head than be treated like stupid Iraq woman."

GOLD

4 Thom™  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:35:58am

Not sure how I feel about this ...

5 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:36:14am
6 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:36:22am

#1 Gordon

Get off your f-ckin' high horse.

We all agree that this type of behavior is deplorable and damaging. That does not mean that we can not point out the absolute hypocrisy of the situation.

7 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:37:09am
8 Yankee Zionist  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:37:51am

I agree the mission must continue and yes what was done to the prisoners is despicable. I hope the soldiers who did this are punished.

I'm particularly bothered by reports that indicate two prisoners were murdered under our care.

Ultimately, it's the obligation of free people to instruct those who are not how democracy works. As has been written elsewhere, it this event may be a teachable moment.

9 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:38:07am
10 Gordon  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:38:36am

Thom - person with a conscience

Ploome - MUSLIMS GOOD! FOUR LEGS BAD!

11 V the K  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:39:31am

The media have overblown this story. Sometimes parody is necessary for perspective.

12 Ward Cleaver  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:40:20am

LMAO!

13 Nell  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:42:59am

To err is human, to forgive divine. So which is the Real Religion of Peace?

14 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:43:55am
15 Thom™  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:47:23am

#10 Gor-don

Please don't use me for your attacks on a regular that I really like. Please.

#7 ploome hineni
#11 V the K

The parody is funny, no doubt. The propellor beanie image in particular had me in stitches. And there's no denying the truths underlying the parody. I'm just not sure that minimizing the actual abuse is a good idea.

16 Beagle Matamoros  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:48:07am

This was bound to happen. The "Grand Wizard" pic looks just like one that created a major stink at a MAJOR university in the South not very long ago. Piling naked people up is the great drunk-Greek tradition.

I saved potential frat money for dating and beer. I think I got the better end of that deal.

Having said that, what I've seen already is a Geneva Convention violation scandal. Worse, the scandal appears to be growing.

No matter, we're in for a penny and a pound now. I wish "intelligence" services lived up to their names more often. They always claim that "we never hear of their successes." BS. They blab after any successes. The rest is revealed by mediocre investigative reporters or a properly trained soldier.

17 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:48:55am

One problem... at least for me... is that the reports of alleged abuse that are coming out seem to describe a mixture of unpleasant but probably necessary interrogation techniques (assuming they were used on suspected Fedayeen, etc.), and outright sadistic abuse of ordinary prisoners bordering on, yes, torture. It's not clear where the dividing line is. But when we're talking about, e.g., sodomizing a prisoner with an object (assuming this really happenend), I can't imagine that this could be justified as interrogation. In that sense, I'm not in much of a laughing mood about this, either.

18 Pamela  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:49:18am

“I am made to be like lowly woman, begging for woman clothing from lowly woman,” he explained. “For Iraq man, to be made to be as a woman is beneath even the animal, the insect. I would rather be shot in the head than be treated like stupid Iraq woman.”

Just goes to show the mentality of the RoP and how deep sexism is in the muslim world.

19 Ed Moran:Abu Santiago Matamoros  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:49:41am

I'm probably not feeling well, or something, or my not quite three mile run (um, I had a severe urge to do "#2" while running and had to cut my run short) has affected me, but I sort of agree with Gordon.

No, what happened at the prison comes nowhere close to the savagery and abuse our POWs faced during GW1 and GW2, nor anywhere close to what happened to the civilians in Fallujah, but as a civilized people we shouldn't make excuses.

20 riverofpearls  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:50:10am

It may be mere coincidence,” said Biden, “but these tortures are eerily similar to the Skull and Bones initiation.”

EDUCATION
Syracuse University College of Law, J.D. 1968
University of Delaware, B.A. 1965
(Double Major: History/Political Science)
Archmere Academy 1961

[Link: biden.senate.gov...]

How does Joe Biden know the initiation ritual of Skull and Bones at Yale? Hmmm?

21 Poitiers-Lepanto  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:50:41am

We must admit that the practice of torture is extended to the whole American society.
I can speak only anonymously but I have to report that the last time I got a check up the Doctor did unspeakable acts to me, to check for an alleged "prostate" cancer.

I was so humiliated.
I am sure that under Saddam I wouldn't have been humiliated.

/ Michael Moore for Prez, the Twin Towers have been stolen by Halliburton, stop the colonial occupation of the Northern American Continent by British, Irish, Italian, German thugs.

22 sharona  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:51:57am

Speaking of torturous injuries, Byron York has uncovered the MD's notes from when John Kerry was first injured in Vietnam:

Kerry Purple Heart Doc Speaks Out

Keep in mind as you read the description of the "wound" that Kerry nominated himself for the 1st of his purple heart medals immediately following this incident.

23 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:52:48am

Gordon

Take a perspective pill and buzz-off.

24 twisterella  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:52:49am

O iowahawk, I can't get my breath! lololol!
Iowahawk, I need to apologize to you also, for suspecting you were the demon-troll Aisha. Sorry. :-)

Thom, humor is the the best (and sometimes only) defense against atrocity.

25 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:52:50am

#15 Thom™

You'll find no argument from me.

26 TalkinKamel  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:52:57am

#8 Yankee zionist

"I'm particularly bothered by reports that indicate two prisoners were murdered under our care."

Yes, and I'm much more bothered by that than I am about any of the humiliation visited upon the prisoners (and, yes, I think our soldiers should be punished for what they did.)

I'm also bothered that the brutal murder of the pregnant Israeli mother, and her four daughters, didn't get more mainstream coverage than it did.

27 andrew  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:53:24am

#20 riverofpearls

Umm, did Biden actually say that, or was that Iowahawk's parody?

28 Sean  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:53:26am

Y'all be nice to Gordon. For once, he's right. We have an obligation to get sensitivity trainers to Abu Ghraib Prison to work out these guards problems.

All we need is some Sexual Harassment Training for our troops!

29 Mike  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:56:27am

What I have seen described in stories or photos would be more accurately described as "hazing", rather that torture, which is the point that this article was driving home.

I'm sure it's difficult for many Americans (particularly reservists, who seem to be the majority of those implicated in these acts, and who are less integrated into the discipline of the military) to watch their buddies killed or mutilated, and not want some kind of revenge.

That some of these acts were apparently perpetrated by women should attest to just how far women have come in the last 30 years. Perhaps NOW should run some of these photos on their website as proof of the equality of women and men.

Seriously, these acts should not be dismissed, and those who disobeyed procedures and direct orders to commit them should be punished severely.

The fact that we are allowing our press to publish these photos, and that we are prosecuting the perpetrators should speak volumes about the difference between the US occupational forces and Saddam's sadistic goons.

The real story here should be that only two Iraqi prisoners have died at our hands in over a year. How many thousands of Iraqis would have been painfully disfigured and mutilated by torturers, and then executed in one year by Saddam?

30 Gordon  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:56:28am

Ploome Heinie: so, other than telling me to FOAD, what is your opinion about this whole affair? Did those prisoners "deserve it?"

Thom - my apologies.

31 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:57:52am
32 Geepers  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:58:06am

Thom™ (#15),

I'm just not sure that minimizing the actual abuse is a good idea.

Are you referring to minimizing the "fact that there was" abuse, or the severity of the "abuses"?

33 twisterella  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:58:25am

After recently being forced to spend time at (the hellish purgatory of) dKos, I understand perfectly while Gor-don has to come here, inspite of taking chong from you guys all day. My sympathies, Gor-don. :-)

34 V the K  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:59:12am

#15 Thom --- I guess maybe I'm just burned out on this. It's kind of like the Rachel Corrie thing. The way the media are exploiting this story to bash the military is kind of like the way the left elevated Corrie to Sainthood to suit their own purposes.

I was pissed about this... and still am ... but there's only so much schadenfreude from the left you can take before something inside you just says, "I wonder how the Arab world would respond if the American guards had burned the Iraqi prisoners alive, dismembered their corpses, then danced around and hung them from a bridge..."

The guards did bad. They are going to be punished. They Arab world is pissed at us (but Arabs are always pissed at us.) Really, does this need to dominate the news cycle endlessly... like when Motley Crue's "Home Sweet Home" video was number one on MTV for like, six months?

35 Nekama Johnson  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:00:51am

Did IowaHawk get his training at Faber ("Knowledge Is Good") College?

36 Plato  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:01:02am

sorry...OT

The Palesuicidians have a red herring they want us all to see:

[Link: ap.tbo.com...]

37 andthenblammo!  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:03:50am

I hate network rating sweeps months...

38 zipity  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:04:02am

I also am severley disappointed in the SMALL number of US service people who took part in this outrage. Having said that, it is obvious that the Lefty Hype Machine has taken over, and the usual nutbars are gleefully bleating their foaming blather. Christopher Hitchens is among them. They secretly hope for incidents such as these as well as higher US casualties so they can justify the unjustifiable, the continuation of Saddam's evil regime. Keep this in mind, if news came out of Saddam's regime that 20 or so prisoners were "humiliated" and made "uncomfortable" those in charge would be shot. Not for the acts they committed, but for not meeting their production GOALS of dead bodies. Take a deep breath lefties and smell the coffee...

39 Abu el Anon  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:04:42am

Mike - #29

Re: Hazing. I don't think that the hazing analogy is a very good one. People who are subjected to hazing do so under some guise of acquiesence. The person being hazed agrees to be hazed so that they might be a member of a group. The prisoners who were mal-treated were not done so because of their own desires, but out of the malicious desire of the troops. Some of the treatment they sustained does appear to be of the type done in extreme hazing, and it was probably done for the same reason (establish a power structure between hazer and hazee), but that does not mean it should be excused or minimized in any way.

We would be hacked off if people were making jokes about the abuse or deaths of Americans in the hands of Iraqi captors. We should show our own moral fiber and not resort to this level of "humor".

40 Sean  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:05:31am

ploome did you miss my [implied] /sarc tag?

41 leo (dissident view from Berlin)  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:06:41am

Iowahawk:

"It may be mere coincidence," said Biden, "but these tortures are eerily similar to the Skull and Bones initiation."

When the Abu Gharib story is linked to the Bush family conspiracy theory it makes an absolutely poisonous mix:

Many rich people and companies became involved with the Nazis due to pre-existing business relationships with Germany. Becoming disengaged from such relationships cannot happen overnight. Historians agree that Hitler's grasp for power did not rely on foreign trade, and that the Skull and Bones symbol used by the Totenkopf units of the Waffen-SS was designed by Karl Maria Wiligut, an advisor to Heinrich Himmler and Neopaganist.

There is a vague memory that SS := torture + skull&bones and the LLL might try to exploit the association.

42 Thom™  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:06:43am

#32 Geepers

Both I suppose.

#34 V the K

I agree, and well-said (as always).

43 Judith  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:08:30am

I am deeply disturbed by the suffering of these humliated Iraqi prisoners.

I am even more disturbed by the hypocritical condemnations from Human Rights abusers. How long will it take the same Human Rights Commission that supressed the information about Sudan's multple violations to condemn the USA. 5...4...3...2...

44 andthenblammo!  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:08:33am

But then, women in the United States are getting more, uh, shall we say, tough to get along with??!

45 ibn Abu  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:08:54am

Without knowing the specific circumstances of what was going on at Abu Ghraib, it's not that easy to draw conclusions one way or the other.

Assuming that all the media reports are true, I think the behavior of these soldiers was outrageous and should be severely punished. This is not behavior that Americans should engage in and it should neither be tolerated nor winked at.

That said, I couldn't possibly care less about the prisoners and their "humiliation". As "non-combatants" engaged in armed hostilities they are not protected by any international law, and the Army would have been fully within its rights to execute them on the spot (I'm not convinced that wouldn't have been the best and most productive course). Even if every bit of the accusations are true, they have still been treated far better than they deserve.

46 andagain  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:09:12am

'Hee-hee! Torture's so much fun - let's have a good laugh about it!'

Disgusting...but not surprising.

47 JeffF  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:10:27am

As I scrolled down through the comments, I was trying to decide how I feel (torture bad, Iowahawk funny, where's the line?). Then I read V the K's #34. Bingo.

48 V the K  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:11:57am

Andagain amply demonstrates the folly of posting without reading a single damn comment first.

49 Tango  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:12:47am

Arabs and Muslims Are Victims of Anti-Semitism

Try not to fall out of your seat.

50 V the K  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:13:03am

Thanks Jeff and Thom... sometimes when there's nothing to caption... I feel kinda useless. ;-)

51 Ed Moran:Abu Santiago Matamoros  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:13:04am

This is why I don't think Gordon is a complete troll. While he almost always takes the "liberal" side of any issue, in this case, IMHO, opinion, he is actually taking the conservative side of this, that American fighting men and women should be held to a higher standard than Saddam's thugs and the such.

BTW, it sounds like some of the military people involved will be taking the "just following orders" excuse. It didn't work for the Nazi's at Nuremberg, and it shouldn't work here.

I know, in Navy recruit training (and I suspect this goes for all the services) we had training on the rules of war, treatment of prisoners, and the definition of a lawful order. In a non-emergency situation, a military person is compelled to protest any order he/she believes is non-lawful.
An order from military intelligence or CIA people to make Iraqi prisoners, even Sadr or Fallujah jihadis masturbate on each other, for example, is pretty clearly not a lawful order. (I also suspect that much/all of the sexual type abuse was not the result of orders)


I do hope, however, that the military personnel involved or treated no more harshly than the civilians who might have given unlawful orders.

The US is a civilized nation and we should act that way.

52 Thom™  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:13:06am

#48 V the K

LOL. I was just about to post something to that effect ...

53 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:14:53am

#34 V the K

Well stated.


#48 V the K

Read the comments? Heaven forbid anyone takes the time to address individual posters. It's much easier to make sweeping generalizations.

54 A!an  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:16:57am

The difference is pledges go through the shit to become a brother. POWs go through the shit because they have no choice...all while wondering if the next moment they might have their balls cut off, or worse. Sociopaths should not be in charge of POWs.

55 Hhar  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:18:01am

I dunno 'bout this.

Some parts are funny, but in context...Ick.

56 Pete (detroit)  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:18:23am

I find myself in agreement w/ Gordon. There was nothing funny about the incident. Sad fact is that people get sodomized with plungers in NYC, too.
That's not funny either.
People being tortured to death is almost as funny when it's US doing the torture as it is when the Fellujians are having a barbeque.
Ha
Ha
Wasn't that a pretty picture. We're SOOO much better than they are.

Give me a frigg'n break.

57 Abu Jimbola  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:20:38am

I am still from Missouri on this issue.

Why were these pictures taken?

Why were they sent to the press and who is behind this.

Are they real or Photoshopped?

Why do we believe the media on this issue (esp the Brits) when the media has been so consistently wrong?

58 andagain  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:21:37am
Andagain amply demonstrates the folly of posting without reading a single damn comment first.

Wrong again, I'm afraid. I read quite a few comments.

Gordon's initial post said it all...the fact that so many attacked him for it says a lot about you, too. And the fact that your own recent post #34 only suggests that you're bored with hearing about these outrageous incidents suggests that your own opinion ain't worth much...

59 Thom™  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:22:29am

There is a big, big difference between "boredom" and "burn-out".

60 Geepers  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:22:30am

andagain (#46),

Torture's so much fun - let's have a good laugh about it!'

You're right dude. We should be pissed, PISSED I tell you!

In fact I think we should all gather in the street chanting and screaming insults. Maybe we could burn someone in effigy. Then we could pull on our masks, grab an AK-47 and a RPG launcher (and of course a Bible) and parade around for the press threatening to kill anyone who disagrees with us.

Then maybe we'd start getting some international respect.

61 Doss  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:29:15am

iowahawk...Hilarious!!!

The last two days, I've listened to NPR in the car and had CNN on the tv in the background for a few hours and the abuse story has been relentless. The abuse was stupid and despicable, but I would have loved to have seen a proporionate focus by the media on the Western oil workers killed in S.A., Iran's dogged pursuit on nukes, rising worldwide Jew-hatred, Islam's brutal subjugation of women, Sudan's genocide, or a thousand stories that:
A. Involve a much greater number of victims than the Iraqi prisoner abuses. We're talking maybe twenty Iraqis who were abused, but that pales in comparison to the millions killed in Sudan, thousands of slaves in S.A.,, or the brutal treatment of hundreds of millions of Islamic women.
B. Involve much harsher treatment of victims than the mostly hazing type incidents here. (I don't believe the killing stories, but I would describe the case where the guy was hooded and had to hold wires as psychological torture. This, though, is a f'ing war and when you have hundreds of thousands of people shooting and being shot at, some soldiers (a very small number) will violate standards. We may have stacked prisoners in a naked pyramid, but why weren't there an equal number of stories about the children's prisons Saddam kept or the rape rooms or the mass graves.
C.Involve abuses, torture, genocide, gender apartheid, and terrorism in countries that don't censure and punish the perps. The US will punish those involved, but where's the opprobium about the unacceptance of Islamic and other counries to bring a fraction as much attention or punishment to bear against their people who do much worse.

The media truly is the enemy when the abuse of a handful of prisoners by a handful of soldiers is such a media pile-on, while stories that involve exponentially more victims who have suffered real torture, mutilation, and murder never see media exposure.

62 V the K  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:30:09am

Like the media, Pee Wee Gordon has a point that the abuse occurred and was wrong. Like the media, Pee Wee Gordon, in order to bash people he doesn't like. In this case, Pee Wee conflates iowahawk's parody -- which riffs on the "shame and humilitation" whine we hear so often --- to bash us all for being indifferent to torture, which is a very different thing, and which is not so lightly dismissed.

63 V the K (correction)  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:32:19am
Like the media, Pee Wee Gordon, in order to bash people he doesn't like.

should read

Like the media, Pee Wee Gordon, in order to bash people he doesn't like hysterically blows things out of proportion, and disingenuously shifts the focus of the argument to suit his agenda.
64 Pax Americana  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:33:47am

#39 Abu el Anon -

Excellent point on the implied-consent of fraternity hazing.

My feeling about this is that the actual severity of the mistreatment (from what we've seen so far) does not rise above the level of the hijinks of your average fraternity. However, because of the lack of consent and the illegality under the rules of war, these misdeeds should not be dismissed.

The real problem is, as V the K has pointed out, the relentless hammering of the news cycle on this. Is this really worthy of 'flooding the zone'? I don't think so. It goes beyond media bias, it's media incompetence.When you get right down to it, I don't think we have more than a glimmer of what's really going on in Iraq.

The wall-to-wall coverage of this minor episode is yet another sad example of this.

65 Am I stupid or what?  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:34:00am

"People who are subjected to hazing do so under some guise of acquiesence. The person being hazed agrees to be hazed so that they might be a member of a group. The prisoners who were mal-treated were not done so because of their own desires, but out of the malicious desire of the troops."

And how are is it we can be so sure factually of that last assertion?

One notable picture I saw showed a hooded Iraqi twanging his bishop in front of a very attractive young American soldier, who was mouthing a cigarette at a jaunty angle and playfully gesturing to his full erect genital area. I didn't see any evidence of a gun held to either of the guy's heads, no bruising or wounds, no signs of any distress. So he gets a stiffy and pounds his pud and shoots his load in front of Sargeant Cutie.

I wonder if that guy volunteered to be "tortured" in such a manner?

I'm sorry, but all the pictures I have seen so far have all the indicia of a voluntary group frolic.

66 mickthemick  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:34:09am

Iowahawk is amusing, as always. As far as the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, I agree with V the K that the media are exploiting this issue, and I'm getting sick of it (though, IMO, they're using it more to bash Bush than the military).

67 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:37:58am

#57 Abu Jimbola


From what I have read, sorry no links, the pictures were turned in by another soldier who was disgusted by these acts. Rightfully so, mind you. This was some 4 or 5 months ago. The soldiers in question have already been removed and put up for charges. The press was late to get the news. Take it for what it's worth.

68 David  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:40:40am

That's funny. I've always said this 'torture' is no worse than frat hazing.

Speaking of funny, I might as well share this little gem:

'This Just In' video clips rip American Idol, Bill O'Reilly, SNL's weekend update, Michael Moore, Sean Hannity, Ted Kennedy and black people... Best show ever.

69 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:40:56am

#58 andagain

Oh please, give us a break. Our "attacks" on Gordon have little to do with the issue at hand and have more to do with being fed up with his holier than thou attitude.
Hence the FOAD.

Wrong again, I'm afraid. I read quite a few comments.

I suggest that you read ALL of the comments.

70 andagain  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:41:38am
Then maybe we'd start getting some international respect.

No, I think we'll get that back when we start living up to our words, not hypocritically touting peace while starting unprovoked wars, or touting human rights while torturing prisoners.

I think that sort of approach would work just fine...

71 andagain  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:42:30am
I suggest that you read ALL of the comments.

Sorry, it's lunchtime, and I don't think my stomach could handle it...:)

72 dennisw  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:42:53am

The Hawk shoots and SCORES!!! Funny, I got many yuks here and I guess this must "humiliate" the 'Slammies even more.

73 riverofpearls  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:43:22am

#27 andrew 5/5/2004 08:53AM PST
#20 riverofpearls
Umm, did Biden actually say that, or was that Iowahawk's parody?

Sorry about not responding sooner. I went looking for where Biden made remark. Apparently was made on Fox News Sunday. Senator Biden's remarks
[Link: www.tnr.com...]
I looked for original transcripts and when I found the transcript was not complete. I will keep looking.
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
This is what I am worried about also. The people who did this should be punished and not just the guards of the prisoners but military intlligence and other higher ups.
I'm not asking anybody's civil rights to be violated. I'm not suggesting that at all. What I am suggesting is, there be a much higher profile, in terms of the indignation, anger, and an explanation of the process that's under way, so people don't think — because right now, every day on the ground, there's some young Marine there who in fact the rage of an indigenous person is being generated as a consequence of Al-Jazeera television covering this
also
[Link: sg.news.yahoo.com...]

74 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:43:59am

#71 andagain

Sorry, it's lunchtime, and I don't think my stomach could handle it...:)

Then stop making generalizations.

75 Harlan Pepper  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:44:01am

I think it's about time these murdereous Iraqi "insurgents" ask themselves an important question...

Why does the US military h-a-a-a-te us???

You know, look into the "root causes" etc.

Just a suggestion.

76 Geepers  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:44:07am

Am I stupid or what? (#65),

So he gets a stiffy and pounds his pud and shoots his load in front of Sargeant Cutie.

I wonder if that guy volunteered to be "tortured" in such a manner?

I've heard ex-President Clinton was "tortured" in a similar fashion.

77 Goldie  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:47:01am

How many times do people have to say that it's wrong to mistreat prisoners, that the US should know better, etc., before the topic can be discussed without apologizing?

So I'll say it again - it's wrong to mistreat prisoners. The US should know better.

But in the big picture, it may turn out to be a good thing. I suspect that the Iraqi outrage at this is sort of forced - after Saddam, can a naked pile-up really seem so terrible to these people?

Meanwhile, I know I'm not the first to say it, but it's gotta do some good for them to see how the civilized world responds to unacceptable behavior.

As for Iowahawk's piece, I thought the funniest line was the one about Sudan.

78 Hepcat - Are you hep to the jive?  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:47:22am

I submit that if you watch MTV, Comedy Central, Reality and Spring Break TV shows for about a week, you'll come away desensitized to this type of torture.

79 Frank_Mtl  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:47:25am

It may just be me, but I see no common measure between "this" and the desacration of defiled American soldiers bodies hung from a bridge. It seems to me the outrage is largely disproportionate.

80 Ed Moran:Abu Santiago Matamoros  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:47:39am

OT

North Korea close to having an ICBM capable of striking the US


The really cheerful news is they are already trying to sell it to several ME nations, including Iran.

81 V the K  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:48:23am

Am I stupid or what? (#65)

Throw in some toe-sucking and it basically sounds like a date with Dick Morris.

82 hobgoblin  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:48:35am

#65 Am I stupid or what?

Let me answer: Yes.

Damnit, but I hate to agree, even a little bit, with Gordon (though certainly not his motives), but as many have expressed, this just isn't a laughing matter.

Some of the "torture" was nothing more than SOP for prisoners (i.e. strip searches)---no big deal. You're "shamed" to be made to feel like a woman? Tough shit.

Some of the other things like "twanging his bishop" and the naked doggie-pile, are just plain wrong. End of story. No ", but..."

Just wrong.

Rush was wrong to liken this shit to a fraternity prank.

Just wrong.

And iowahawk, though I love your parodies, is wrong to pick up on that meme.

Just wrong.

These moronic assholes---serving our country overseas or not---have demeaned themselves, the US Army, and us. There's nothing funny about prison "hazing" in a country where such events used to immediately precede a nice little electrocution, hanging, or bullet in the eye. The fact that they don't know b/c we're in charge doesn't mean jack.

That said, VtK is right in #34 in saying that the shit's just old. Let's not trivialize what happened, but let's simply let the process work in punishing the stupid fucks that lost the PR battle for us in the short term.

83 twisterella  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:48:48am

Sheesh, lets just take this at face value, and not agonize over it and dissect it and wring every last shred of meaning out of it-- it's funny!

If you want a serious, angst-ridden discussion of Abu Ghraib, go to WofC and ineract with those big brainiacs over there. Or go back to one of Charles' threads that discusses it.

Or go to dKos, but you won't find any entertainment there-- ;-) I have never seen such a bunch of bland, homogeneous, brain-dead posters in my life. The whole place is a friggin' echo chamber for Kos' ego, without a single original thought. If there is any dissent, it is immediately deleted through the "awesome power of Scoup". dKos is dull, juiceless, and humorless. That's why Gor-don has to hang here and take chong from you guys.

84 Marshall  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:49:36am

Ha Ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha! Ha ha! Ha!

Oh, I'm laughing so hard right now at the moral equivalence people on the Right who see torture and think frat-hazing. That satire is so damn funny!

85 Hepcat - Are you hep to the jive?  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:49:56am

Correction for #78

Make that: watching a variety of those shows for about one evening.

86 zipity  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:50:54am

as funny as Ted Rall pissing on Tillmans grave?

87 Former MP  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:51:37am

Back in the early 80's I co-wrote the manual on handling EPW's (enemy prisoners of war). One of the things we stressed was to maintain the dignity of the EPW. However...

As stated earlier. We do not know the authenticity of these pictures. It is possible that they are all soldiers. I have seen similar things in the past. If they were in fact EPW, then a bunch of soldiers (and their commanders) should be in a bunch of trouble. If this is a hoax, then they should still be in trouble for initiating something that impugns the credibility of the soldiers in general.

88 Marshall  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:51:44am

As funny as Rush Limbaugh getting chucked away for drug dealing.

89 Ronin  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:52:24am

Comedy gold.

90 zipity  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:52:45am

As funny as Bill getting his dick sucked and not keeping his eye on the Islamofacists?

91 Abu Jimbola  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:53:57am

#65 Am I stupid

How do we know this was an Iraqi?

Where was this photo taken?

When was it taken?

I don't know but it seems that there are a lot of people that would produce trumped-up pictures to discredit America... and the media jackals have pounced right on it.

92 lazytart  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:54:15am

OT- who of Hamas just got killed by the IDF in Nablus???

93 Marshall  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:54:34am

Okay, now THAT was funny.

Oh, I guess you haven't read Dick Clarke's book then. Not that you would. Repeat after me. Obey. George Bush is God. Bill Clinton is Satan.

94 Goldie  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:55:15am

LGF has changed lately. First of all, I finally started posting, after being a constant reader for a year.

And there's been a crazy troll invasion. I guess I joined at the wrong time - right when the level of conversation is being driven down.

I appreciate some trolls. All perspectives are welcome, and I don't either always agree with the consensus on LGF (although I always keep reading and liking it).

But some of these people are just annoying. They seem to think they're posting among fellow LLLs, or potential ones, like we'll have our minds changed by "Bushitler Lied peeple DIED!!!"

95 Ed Moran:Abu Santiago Matamoros  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:56:38am

The other thing about making light of abuse of prisoners, even though it generally doesn't hold a candle to what Saddam routinely did (no professional US Army rapists, AFAIK) or what was done by the Fallujah jihadis or Pali terrorists who feel most manly when shooting two year olf girls strapped into their car seats point blank in the head, is that it gives some degree of ammunition to the moral equivalency asshats like Marshall.

Yes, CBS News (and Dan "$1000 a Plate DNC Fundraiser" Rather) et al are doing their best to get the Arab street fired up and Americans at home to doubt the war effort, as they are happy to weaken the security of this country and accept more American combat deaths if it means defeat of the hated GWB at the polls, but that still isn't a reason, IMHO, to make light of the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US forces that should have known better.

96 Marshall  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:56:56am

For those of you who think the pictures are a hoax, check this out. Yes, that's a Major General.

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

97 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:57:47am

#93 Marshall

Oh, I guess you haven't read Dick Clarke's book then.

$10 says you didn't read it either.


#94 Goldie

I completely agree, and unfortunately, it's only going to get worse on the run up to November.

98 Marshall  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:58:32am

RIP You owe me ten bucks.

99 Ed Moran:Abu Santiago Matamoros  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:58:52am

88


Um, Rush Limbaugh may have illegally doctor shopped to feed his narcotics habit, but as far as I know, he never sold drugs.

Want to show me some evidence, or even an allegation, he sold drugs?


Idiot.

100 PETN Sandwich  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:59:09am

I was listening to radio news the other day and they were running through a list of “tortures” including breaking open chemical lights and dumping phosphorous chemicals onto prisoners skin.

Torture? Not hardly. We give our kids the same non-toxic chem-lights to play with on Halloween.

Ignorant reporter. Why should I take seriously anything they say (or the Congressmen calling for investigations based upon such reports). They should not be listened to - they should be mocked.

101 andrew  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:59:22am

#73 riverofpearls

Thanks for your response. I, too, am concerned that this stuff was sanctioned by CIA and military intel types, that it was more than prankish buffoonery - weren't there at least 1 or 2 deaths that are being investigated?

102 zipity  Wed, May 5, 2004 7:59:58am

No, Bush is not God. Yes, Bill is Satan. And Dick Clarke is a dissembling lying bastard...Any other questions?

103 Thom™  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:00:01am

#91 Abu Jimbola

The previously classified investigation report has been leaked and is sitting on al-NPR's web site. I don't see much room for doubt ...

104 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:00:11am

#98 Marshall

With the reading comprehension that I have seen you display here, I seriously doubt that you would read anything longer than a blog review of the book.

105 andagain  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:00:34am
I appreciate some trolls. All perspectives are welcome, and I don't either always agree with the consensus on LGF (although I always keep reading and liking it).

Do you view anyone posting non-Conservative opinions here as a "troll?" I ask because I see that attitude here a lot, and IMO it's pretty obvious that it contributes to the hostility which some Left-leaning posters tend to express here.

Either it's an open board or not...if not, then Charles should simply declare that it's Conservatives Only, and have done with it.

106 iagofest  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:00:39am

Marshall,

Now you're just making stuff up. Rush is being investigated for doctor shopping. There's a big difference between that and distribution of illegal drugs. 'Course, you just want to believe that it's true because you hate Rush. I'm no big fan of the guy, but I don't like people defaming others to score political points.

107 zulubaby  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:00:45am

Goldie, I don't think there is a consensus, what do you mean by that? I can't stand the trolls, especially idiots like Marshall who comes here so he can run back to the lunatics at Kos and post comments out of context. He can't debate issues at all -- too much of a coward.

108 andthenblammo!  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:01:14am

#80 Ed Moran:

Damn, you beat me to posting that. It provokes 2 questions:

-What does Iran need an ICBM for? they do not have any nukes, according to the UN.

-What press coverage will this get, compared to the POW issue we're discussing:
#1:Oh, just as much, this is very important and disturbing.
#2:You say Iran what now? More Michael Jackson coverage on the way!

I vote for the latter.

109 Ed Moran:Abu Santiago Matamoros  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:01:16am

Marshall


You do know Clarke basically gave conflicting testimony under oath.

Of course, Bill Clinton did to, so I guess that makes it alright.


Idiot.

110 Gordon  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:01:27am

#62 #63 V the K: that's CASSANDRA Gordon

And where did Ploome Heinie go?

111 IMissReagan  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:01:37am

#77 Goldie

You make me wonder: if the RoP allowed for more naked twister, would there be less animus towards innocent heathens the world over?

The administration ought to just shut their side of this down. They've done their proper bit to date, I was glad to see them come out vocally against this. That the abusive treatment is abhorrent is pretty much a no brainer; the same brain used to reach that conclusion should likewise be able to clearly see that there is zero symmetry between what the allegations against the US are and what the Islamofascists are perpetrating left and right.

Overly obsessing about this in an official capacity almost seems like it's creating symmetry that just flat out logically is not there.

As as aside, we've taken a vote down at the coffeehouse-slash-el-cubo-clubhouse and we don't want Teddy Kennedy either. Although the vision of him in a tinfoil hat would be semi-striking.

We should just declare all prisoners in Iraq "hostages". Apparently you can do whatever you want at that stage. I'm plain sick of people talking about being humiliated in the same breath as the DPearl treatment.

Asymmetric conflict sucks.

112 V the K  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:02:13am

Marshall also apparently posted without reading anyone else's comments. Let's review, shall we:

Thing satirized by iowahawk: hyperblown whines about humiliation and shame.

Thing not satirized by iowahawk: actual torture

Right now, one of my kids is in the doghouse for mouthing off at school and is being "shamed and humiliated" by getting his PS2, DVD, and paintball gun taken away from him and being forced to write an apology note to his teacher. If you can't tell the difference between "shame and humiliation" and torture... please let someone else discipline your kids

113 Jim O  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:02:33am

My immediate reaction completely. I went through fraternity initiations in the 1960s from both sides (frater was better; pledge was less good), and that's what the pictures looked like to me. My Tau Kappa Epsilon pledge name was 'ZARK', and yes, I asked why, too. Had something to do with the Ozark Mountains (I was from New York) and the fact that I was tall. Bluto would have been proud of our pledge trainer, Moose.

114 Thom™  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:02:58am

#92 lazytart

19:54 Palestinians report IDF kills senior Hamas man Amad Janjara in Taluza village near Nablus

In other news:

19:13 Israel releases a co-founder of Hamas, Mohammed Taha, after holding him for 14 months without charges

What, being a founder of Hamas isn't a crime in itself?

18:27 UN expected to approve PLO resolution Thursday stating Palestinian right to sovereignty over territories, E. J`lem

Great.

115 Dirk Diggler  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:03:12am
As funny as Rush Limbaugh getting chucked away for drug dealing.

Drug dealing? So much for liberal 'empathy'.

116 Gordon  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:03:31am

#94 Goldie: You must hearken back to the good ol' days when Kalle (Kaffir forever) was arguing that "Mecca delenda est" and others argued that Mecca could stay, but they just need to get rid of that damn black rock.

Open your eyes.

117 zipity  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:03:43am

andagain: What do you hope to accomplish here? Do you think you are going to change our minds? Do you think we could change the minds of your friends over at DU or INYMEDIA? Take a chil pill, and don't hold your breath for us to all bow to your "superior" arguments...

118 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:03:51am

This story doesn't negate or change any aspect of the charges but FWIW(newsmax story): NBC: Worst Abuse at Al Ghraib Done by Iraqi Recruits

119 Ed Moran:Abu Santiago Matamoros  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:04:21am

Blammo

I suppose even if Iran doesn't have nukes a semi-accurate ICBM loaded with VX and aimed at Tel Aviv could do bad things.

Or Iran could modify it, to attempt a moon shot, so they can marvel at how Allah (SAW) split the moon in two and then glued it back together.

120 Marshall  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:05:19am

RIP, send me an email. I will reply to it, and my reply will include my address, to which you will then send a check for 10 dollars.

121 Marshall  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:05:48am

And yes, Twisterella, I am watching you. Be very afraid.

122 twisterella  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:06:17am

Marshall! Zulubaby was correct as always-- are you here to argue with us wingnuts? Remember, you owe me a debt of honesty before I will debate you--

In the mean time, I have a new tag to replace your old one-- (remember I hate Republicans?)

try this jabaan

123 Poitiers-Lepanto  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:06:31am

Breaking news (from Scrappleface):

U.N. Threatens Force to Stop Iraqi Prison Abuses
(2004-05-04)

-- The United Nations Security Council today voted to threaten the use of force against the United States of America unless it could prove that U.S. troops have stopped ABUSING Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison.
"Let it never be said that this world body stood idly by as prisoners were subjected to humiliation and injury," said former French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin (who is a man). "As the global defender of human rights, the U.N. is obligated to step in and protect the helpless innocents in Abu Ghraib."
Mr. de Villepin said the U.N. would assemble a multilateral coalition consisting of troops from every nation on earth, under French command, to ensure that the United States "verifiably complies with the letter and the spirit of the resolution."

124 andrew  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:06:44am

#120 Marshall

Tell you what - I owe RIP Ford 10 dollars - send me an e-mail and I'll send you the money.

125 riverofpearls  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:06:53am

Dad twists as son
is probed in Iraq horrors


By PAUL H.B. SHIN
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

CUMBERLAND, Md. - For months, an unspeakable secret has been eating away at Ivan Frederick.
The wiry 76-year-old has lost more than 15 pounds since his son, Staff Sgt. Ivan (Chip) Frederick, called from Iraq with the shocking news that military brass were investigating him for allegedly abusing Iraqi prisoners in his custody at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

"He's a good boy. I would never know him to hurt anyone," the elder Frederick, known as Red, said yesterday at his home in rural western Maryland, about an hour's drive from the home base of his son's unit, the Army's 372nd Military Police Co.

Ivan Frederick is as disturbed as anyone by photos released last week of Iraqi detainees stripped naked and being humiliated while American G.I.s, several from the 372nd, give thumbs-up signs. Some of the newest allegations also include details of severe physical abuse.

But Frederick and people who know his son - a prison guard in civilian life - cannot believe Chip was capable of such inhumanity.

"It's not in Chip's character to do that. He had an impeccable record at the prison he worked at," said Ken Burton, 63, an Air Force veteran who's known Frederick for seven years and considered the G.I. polite and cordial to a fault.

Frederick, in fact, received a commendation for saving the life of an inmate who had tried to hang himself at the prison where Frederick worked in Dillwyn, Va.

In January, Sgt. Frederick mailed his father a copy of his personal journal - 11 hand-written pages detailing the problems he and about a dozen other soldiers were having watching more than 900 Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, made infamous during the regime of imprisoned former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein for the torture of its prisoners.

"Our military is always boasting they have the best-trained soldiers in the world, but this shows someone has been a little lax training those boys, and I'm really upset about it," Fredrick said.

Nonmilitary interrogators urged the soldiers to "loosen up" the prisoners so they would be more cooperative, Frederick told his father.

In his journal, Frederick noted: "I questioned some of the things I saw," he wrote in neat block letters. "Such things as leaving inmates in their cells with no clothes or in female underpants, handcuffing them to the door of the cell. I questioned this and the answer I got was this is how military intelligence wants it done."

OT
A leading U.S. Holocaust-denial group's advertisements were pulled from a liberal weekly, The Nation, after protests from editorial staffers and Jewish organizations.

[Link: www.forward.com...]

126 Tasty Beverage  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:06:59am

OT via Instapundit:

Shiite Leaders Urge Cleric to End Fighting in 2 Iraqi Cities

(BugMeNot says use slashdot124, slashdot for username and password, for those of you who aren't registered at nyt)

But the strongest murmurings of the meeting came when Taqlif al-Faroun, a tribal leader from Najaf, said Shiites should give the American forces a green light to go after Mr. Sadr in the holy cities. "Najaf is not Mecca," he said. "The Americans don't want to go into the shrines. They want to get rid of criminals and thieves. So what if they enter the city?" Across the roof, dozens of men responded approvingly. "Yes, yes!", they said.

The fact that they even have conversations like this is a positive development. According to the nyt article, it seems that Sadr's popularity is around the level of pondscum. He made a big mistake using the shrine of Ali as a weapons cache. Upstart moron.

127 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:07:19am

#120 Marshall

No thanks. Why in the world would I believe you read it? Your word? Gimme a break. I'm not your welfare officer.

128 Marshall  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:07:24am

That goes for you too, Zulubaby.

129 Borton  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:08:01am

In a couple of posts the other day (check instapundit?) one of the iraqs' at the prison said that the humaltion made him feel like a woman and that was the worst thing in the world. two or three lady columinists were rightfully insensed.

130 andthenblammo!  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:08:14am

Maybe if we do not pay attention to this one, it will go hump someone else's leg.

RIP Ford can spend the $10 buying me drinks; that sounds fair to me.

131 Marshall  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:08:18am

What, RIP, too chickenshit to make good on your bet? No wonder you support George Bush.

132 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:08:26am

#124 andrew

LOL

Thanks for the offer, but it's not needed. The tool never read the book.

133 IMissReagan  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:08:40am

#112 V the K

Has your son petitioned Amnesty Intl. yet?

At a minimum, you may want to consider a run to the liquor store to stock or re-strock--Teddy may be showing up any minute.

134 Right Wing Conspirator  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:09:08am

Everyone up for a good laugh:

John F'ing Kerry - what a total as*:

Kerry Purple Heart Doc Speaks Out

John Kerry was a (jg), the OinC or skipper of a Swift boat, newly arrived in Vietnam. On the night of December 2, he was on patrol north of Cam Ranh, up near Nha Trang area. The next day he came to sick bay, the medical facility, for treatment of a wound that had occurred that night.

The story he told was different from what his crewmen had to say about that night. According to Kerry, they had been engaged in a fire fight, receiving small arms fire from on shore. He said that his injury resulted from this enemy action.

Some of his crew confided that they did not receive any fire from shore, but that Kerry had fired a mortar round at close range to some rocks on shore. The crewman thought that the injury was caused by a fragment ricocheting from that mortar round when it struck the rocks.

That seemed to fit the injury which I treated.

What I saw was a small piece of metal sticking very superficially in the skin of Kerry's arm. The metal fragment measured about 1 cm. in length and was about 2 or 3 mm in diameter. It certainly did not look like a round from a rifle.

I simply removed the piece of metal by lifting it out of the skin with forceps. I doubt that it penetrated more than 3 or 4 mm. It did not require probing to find it, did not require any anesthesia to remove it, and did not require any sutures to close the wound.

The wound was covered with a bandaid.

What a freakin' douchebag.

135 Dirk Diggler  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:09:29am
Oh, I guess you haven't read Dick Clarke's book then.

As a matter of fact I did. I found it to be a rich and vibrant retrospective of the very best of "Bandstand". It is also lavishly illustrated with stunning photos and jam-packed with fascinating sidebars, behind-the-scenes anecdotes, and interviews with guest stars from Chuck Berry to Madonna. Price is $9.54 and it usually ships within two to three days.

136 mickthemick  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:09:52am

#120 Marshall

RIP, send me an email. I will reply to it, and my reply will include my address, to which you will then send a check for 10 dollars.

You go, grrrl!! Send that $10 to Al Frankenstein, I hear he needs the money for his "show". That'll show RIP and the rest of us right-wing nazi fascist republican isalmophobe bigots, won't it?

137 Goldie  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:10:40am

So I'll try to explain to the trolls:

I think the majority of people here are disgusted by this behavior. We are not moral relativists, but we are partisans (on the int'l political spectrum - we're not all Republicans). People who aren't as bothered, I'll take a guess, are probably thinking partisanly, like maybe:

The enemy treats our people worse and isn't criticized for it.

They have a terrible habit of trying to force us into behavior that 'looks bad,' like shooting at mosques.

They're criticizing us from far lower moral ground, so we'll call them on that.

This is being used to try to undermine things we believe in, like acting rather than reacting in response to the threat from the enemy.

138 Ed Moran:Abu Santiago Matamoros  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:11:13am

Once, under severe peer pressure, I was forced to crawl around on my hands and knees while dressed with my clothes on inside out and my underwear worn externally. I was beaten with short lengths of canvas firehouse, made to crawl across a non-skid surface while being sprayed with water from a firehouse. Bearing grease was rubbed into my hair! Then I had to eat corned beef hash out of a toilet bowl, and had my face rubbed in the greased belly of a man who was rather overweight.


My tormentors were Marines and US Navy sailors.

This is a true story, and USS Chuckboat (CVN-70) 1984-1985 West Pac/Indian Ocean cruise book (like a high school year book, without the Glee Club photos) has pictures that prove it.

Anyway, I have never even been to Iowa, but I have been drunk in nearby Wisconsin and Illinois.

139 zulubaby  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:11:17am
That goes for you too, Zulubaby.

It's really not a good idea to threaten me, Marshall.

140 andagain  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:11:30am
What do you hope to accomplish here? Do you think you are going to change our minds? Do you think we could change the minds of your friends over at DU or INYMEDIA? Take a chil pill, and don't hold your breath for us to all bow to your "superior" arguments...

You sound defensive...:)

141 Thom™  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:11:57am

#129 Borton

Yes, but that's their culture, and we gotta respect that, don't we?

Ummm ... no

142 TheBigW  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:12:00am

#135 Dirk

ROFLMAO

143 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:12:45am

#130 andthenblammo!

RIP Ford can spend the $10 buying me drinks; that sounds fair to me.

Done and done.


#131 Marshall

What, RIP, too chickenshit to make good on your bet?

Is this going to turn into some sort of internet pissing match? OK, you read the book. I'll take your word on it. No money will be forthcoming, sorry to say. I don't do charity.

144 iagofest  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:13:02am

I think what happened to those prisoners was psychological and sexual abuse. I don't think it even compares to hazing (except in cases where it is done without the consent of the hazee). Just think if it was your son that was being stripped naked and forced to do these acts in front of strangers (and bing photographed). This stuff wouldn't be tolerated in the prisons over here. Although it does not rise to the level of torture practiced by Saddam's thugs, our troops should know better and I believe most do.

Seems like this is the malicious kind of stuff that often occurs in high school athletics and the perpetrators often get off way too easy. I remember seeing a story where some younger football players were sodomized by older teammates at summer camp in Pennslyvania. The perps got away with it and they community refused to help in the investigation. So if these same kids go on to the military and are never reprimanded for hazing, they might think they can get away with it during a tour of duty. They SHOULD know better and proper training should prevent most of this.

145 mal  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:13:14am

May 5, 2004 -- THREE days ago, a pregnant Israeli woman and her four young daughters were shot to death at point-blank range by two Palestinian murderers. Each child - ages 11, 9, 7 and 2 - received another bullet to the head, and the mother was shot again directly in the abdomen.
It is useful to remember this incident and compare the dead silence it has elicited from those same human-rights organizations, media outlets and America-bashers involved in the feeding frenzy accompanying the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. The disparity of outrage is quite revealing.

The feeding frenzy demonstrates that even those who hate America - and never miss a chance to express that hatred - expect us to adhere to a certain standard of decency. The dead silence demonstrates that no similar expectations apply to societies that produce baby killers and homicide bombers, or use women and children as "human shields" in combat.

Why? Because behind the "high-mindedness" of "universal" human rights is a hypocritical prejudice which allows certain cultures more "leeway" when it come to murder and mayhem.

The United States has expressed regret over the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - even as several Palestinian militant groups wanted credit for murdering a pregnant women and her four young daughters.

146 Thom™  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:14:36am

#138 Ed Moran:Abu Santiago Matamoros

Was that for your 1st jaunt across the equator, or were you just the hapless Cabin Boy?

147 andthenblammo!  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:15:57am

#139 zulubaby:

Oh, brother. What body part of Marshall's is going to blacken and fall off?

148 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:16:54am

#147 andthenblammo!

LOL

149 mickthemick  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:17:02am

#147 andthenblammo!

Oh, brother. What body part of Marshall's is going to blacken and fall off?

Judging by Marshall's posts, this has already happened to his head.

150 IMissReagan  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:17:11am

#146 Thom™

Are you implying Ed's a fancy lad?

151 Pete (detroit)  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:18:15am

#108 I vote for the latter.

Agreed, unfortunately. This is a Big Story precisely because a) it's unusual (ie "News") as well as b) it makes (Bush, the administration, the military) look bad.

Of course, your MJackson reference gives us another reason to tease RoP - they defend child abusers!

152 V the K  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:18:48am
The United States has expressed regret over the Abu Ghraib prison scandal - even as several Palestinian militant groups wanted credit for murdering a pregnant women and her four young daughters.

That also might be part of the reason some of us are not lapping up the Abu Ghraib story the way a lot of self-hating lefties are.

153 Buck  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:19:02am

Sorry, electricity attached to your groin is not a prank. The US has already admitted to the possible murder of 2 people, who were not convicted of any crime. Also not an initiation prank.

IMO LGF just lowered itself...

How many people would need to be tortured and killed for this to be serious? In my opinion, only one, but perhaps you need a higher number to take this from humour to serious.

disclaimer: I am not a lurker, morlock or LLL. In fact I am on the list of anti idiotarians. I have a weblog that takes aim at the same stuff that LGF does. I just disagree (with loyalty) with this posting, and thread. I just don't think this is funny.

154 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:19:53am

I have been drunk in Perth, W.A.

I have also been drunk on the "Footprint of Freedom", in the Chagos Archipelago.

155 V the K  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:20:08am
Are you implying Ed's a fancy lad?

Nah, he just wants him to buy a sock monkey.

156 sharona  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:21:14am

#120 Marshall:

Sheesh, are you petty! You know there's simply no way RIP Ford or anyone else could verify that you've read Richard Clarke's "feel sorry for me!" tome. As you continue to assert your right to ten of RIP Ford's hard-earned dollars I am reminded of a third-grader whining for the money Mommy promised him if he read at least one book during your summer vacation.

If you continue at this rate I'm going to think that you are in fact a girl, and one unfortunate enough to be given a boy's name.

157 mickthemick  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:21:27am

#151 Pete (detroit)
OT- Are you really from Motown? If so, what's the general impression from the street about the ruling in Hamtramck allowing the minarets to issue a public call to prayer? Just curious and concerned as an old Michigander.

158 Thom™  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:21:55am

#150 IMissReagan

No! But, as a big fan of stupid movies, I couldn't miss the opportunity to mention Cabin Boy.

159 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:22:46am

#154 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback

Had to look up The Footprint of Freedom to figure out what you were talking about. Is there any place you have not been drunk?

160 abc  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:22:53am

I'd be hanging a lot of those prisoners.

Or not taking prisoners in the first place.

So this entire issue doesn't make it to my radar screen.

What does worry me is how our administration is going ape shit over the whole thing.

If this truly flusters them, what chance do we have of winning this war?

Not very fucking much, as far as I'm concerned.

161 Goldie  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:22:54am

zulubaby (107):

There's definitely some consensus here. Obviously there's a pro-Israel, pro-West, anti-Islamist consensus, which I totally agree with. And there's also a consensus that the mainstream media's head-in-the-sand approach is a disaster. Other stuff, too, is generally agreed upon, even if not by everyone. That's why we're all here - to talk about something we agree on. Even if we don't all agree on everything.


IMissReagan (111):

A more laid-back attitude toward life would do the Religion of Peace a world of good. I'm too conservative to recommend naked twister, but they should try having a drink every now and then. It mellows the mind - they certainly could use it.


Whoever told me to open my eyes, I don't know what you mean. Explain, please.

162 andthenblammo!  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:23:08am

We had a hazing incident in the Chicago area you may have heard of:

Bad grllls strike again

Maybe this type of stuff is more prevalent in young US adult circles than we're aware of. After all, I do not remember any similar hazing incidents from my youth; other than that unfortunate experience with Ed Probula, the Marvel mystery oil, and the Chrysler slant-six crankshaft

163 Dom  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:23:51am

OT New on the al Muhajiroun site.

164 Right Wing Conspirator  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:23:53am

#158 Thom

I was mentioning a movie to someone the other day, someone who isn't good at taking/following orders :-P

Have you seen 'Super Troopers'?

165 andrew  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:25:04am

#162 andthenblammo!
Is there an anonymous login for that?

166 andagain  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:25:25am
The feeding frenzy demonstrates that even those who hate America - and never miss a chance to express that hatred - expect us to adhere to a certain standard of decency. The dead silence demonstrates that no similar expectations apply to societies that produce baby killers and homicide bombers, or use women and children as "human shields" in combat.

I don't give a damn, personally, what standard others expect us to adhere to, whether they "hate America" or not.

I'm a lot more concerned with what standards we know we should adhere to, claim we adhere to, and have always stood for.

I'd like to think our standards are more than a little bit higher than those of Saddam, or of Palestinian terrorists...maybe that's just me...

167 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:26:14am

#156 sharona

Forget about him, it was a stupid line to write on my part. There is no way to prove or disprove he actually read the book. He's a tool. And, I might add, not very bright. But that's an iside joke for now. :)

I don't want to get into a pissing match on someone elses bandwith.

168 zulubaby  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:26:39am

RWC, oh very funny! :-P

169 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:26:41am

153, I generally agree, but I do think the Marshalls of this world are purposely ignoring the fact that this abuse was reported by a soldier, and several investigations were started by the military before these photos ever became public.


Lets put it this way, I'm sure Fidel Castro is a hero for Marshall. Literacy in Cuba is highest in the Third World, and nobody pays for medical care. More importantly, Castro never misses a chance to thumb his nose at the US

From what I've heard, abuses worse than this occur in Cuba. Does anybody think the Marshalls of this world care? People sentenced to death in Cuba (like the guy that tried to hijack a ferry to escape the island) are killed within days of their trial. No big deal, but let somebody who committed multiple murders in Texas finally get a lethal injection after five, ten or fifteen years of appeals, well, the Marshalls of this world have a cow.

170 Right Wing Conspirator  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:26:42am

#161 Goldie

Other stuff, too, is generally agreed upon


That I am totally frickin awesome, super-smart, incredibly handsome, and all around 100 percent great...

..and humble.


Why yes, that is generally agreed upon here ;-)

171 andthenblammo!  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:27:38am

#165 andrew:

"527itburns77" probably still works.

172 iowahawk  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:27:42am

Please don't think of it as tasteless. Think of it as transgressive satire that challengesdogmatic assumptions.

173 Pete (detroit)  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:28:00am

#135 Dirk Diggler
Now THAT was FUNNY!

174 Goldie  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:28:52am

166 andagain

Our standards are FAR higher than Saddamites' and Palestinian terrorists'. Don't you read what's being said here? Do you think there's a right-wing (or whatever you think of LGF) Palestinian blog right now condemning the murder of that young pregnant mother and her four little girls as beyond acceptable?

Duh.

175 Athos  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:29:25am

#138 Ed Moran,

Crossing the line ceremony?

176 sharona  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:30:15am

#167 RIP Ford:

Forget about him, it was a stupid line to write on my part.

Well, I'd assert that it was tool-like and naive of Marshall to think that you were actually making a bet with him.

That and I enjoyed calling him a "Whiny Little Girly Man".

177 Thom™  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:30:19am

#164 Right Wing Conspirator

Not yet, but it's on Thursday night!

I was mentioning a movie to someone the other day, someone who isn't good at taking/following orders :-P

On lgf?

178 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:30:29am

#166 andagain

I'd like to think our standards are more than a little bit higher than those of Saddam, or of Palestinian terrorists...maybe that's just me...

Those standards have been met. These fools were turned in by their fellow soldiers some 4 months ago. The have been removed from the field, and are facing charges. The President is going on TV and publicly stating that these act are reprehensible. Most posters agree. What more can be done?

179 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:30:34am
180 SoCalJustice  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:31:01am

(#121) Marshall

And yes, Twisterella, I am watching you. Be very afraid.

Well, aside from lying about LGF on Mr. Screw 'em's site, what are you gonna do?

Dissect us and torture us like you do with your mice?

181 andrew  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:32:18am

#180 SCJ

LOL - Marshall loves dem meeces to pieces.

182 urthshu  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:32:27am

Does anyone have any photos of real fraternity initiations? We could put them side by side and prove the point we're trying to make. I got space for that.

183 twisterella  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:32:35am

Marshall , Have you left? I think you forgot your tag-- jabaan

184 paul  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:33:15am

Hilarious stuff, Iowahawk.

Not tasteless at all. In fact, it's all the funnier because it's based on fact.

Maybe you saw this on AS's site, or not:

Mr Shweiri said that while jailed by Saddam's regime he was electrocuted, beaten and suspended from the ceiling with his hands tied behind his back. "But that's better than the humiliation of being stripped naked," he said. "Shoot me here," he added, pointing between his eyes, "but don't do this to us... They made us stand in a way that I am ashamed to describe. They came to look at us as we stood there. They knew this would humiliate us. We are men. It's OK if they beat me. Beating don't hurt us, it's just a blow. But no one would want their manhood to be shattered. They wanted us to feel as though we were women, the way women feel, and this is the worst insult, to feel like a woman."

Lots of intel came out of these interrogations not by torturing bogus confessions out of them, but by playing on their emotions.

Oh, the humanity.

185 scaramouche  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:33:45am

OT: Greece blames 'leftwingers' for bomb blast yesterday. Either they're lying, and Osamists are really behind it, or else they're telling the truth and the Olympics will have to contend with terror threats from 'leftwingers' and Osamists.

Either they, they're f**ked.

186 Renna  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:34:11am

#165 andrew

And if the above doesn't work

nopassword4me
password

from bugmenot worked for me.

187 urthshu  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:34:23am

Oh, and another thing: If they wantred to torture the guys, they should've sent them to 'sensitivity seminars', which is the modern way to do it...

188 Athos  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:35:00am

#169 Ed Moran abu Shellback

That is because people like Marshall have a fundamenta problem with morals and morality. They are the first to jump on the errors and faults of their enemies - but blind to those who they admire, support, and share beliefs with.

This is why they are morally bankrupt. They refuse to admit that those who oppose them generally do not ignore the faults, the warts, the errors committed, but look to bring those defaulters to justice and ultimately hold them accountable.

In 1974 it was the Republican leadership that convinced the President that his actions could not be supported by them, and that impeachment / conviction was likely.

In 1998, the Democrat leadership decided that maintaining power was more important than the law, and refused to convict their President.

Marshall does take his moral bankruptcy to another level though - like Ted Rall, Michael Moore, and other idiots, he is also intellectually bankrupt.

189 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:35:04am

#176 sharona

Agreed.
Somehow I picture a rather short, drooling moron when I read his posts. It's rather comical. I wonder how long till I get my own post at Daily Kos? LOL

I can see the headline now:

Hatefull Rightwinger stiffs Slackjawed Monkey for $10.

190 V the K  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:37:34am

#169 --- Ed

"Wherever there is a jackboot stomping on a human face there will be a well-heeled Western liberal to explain that the face does, after all, enjoy free health care and 100 percent literacy."- John Derbyshire

191 Dirk Diggler  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:37:50am
Lets put it this way, I'm sure Fidel Castro is a hero for Marshall. Literacy in Cuba is highest in the Third World, and nobody pays for medical care. More importantly, Castro never misses a chance to thumb his nose at the US

Slam dunk. I've always been fascinated by Castro worship and the rationales liberals use to justify repression in Cuba. It's a little like telling a woman who's in an abusive relationship "Yes it's true your husband's a violent louse, but he's a good provider and you'd be a fool to leave him." Actually I can picture Marshall saying those exact words. His previous comments have betrayed a startling lack of empathy.

192 SoCalJustice  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:37:58am

(#185) scaramouche

FWIW, my first thought was communists, and not RoPers (for once) - being Greece and all.

193 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:39:02am

I have never been drunk in Greece.


When you mention "Cabin Boy", it brings back warm memories of a song we used to sing in L' Resistance to keep our morale up as we battled the Alemans.

"Friggin in the Riggin"

The cabin boy, the cabin boy,
that dirty little nipper,
put broken glass
inside his ass
and circumcised the skipper!

194 Right Wing Conspirator  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:39:07am

#177 Thom

No, not here. What station is it on?

why yes, yes I am lazy and needy. Too needy in fact to look through the TV section. In fact, I probably could have already looked up that show and many others in the same amount of time it took me to type this.

195 Yankee Zionist  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:39:08am

#26 TalkinKamel

I'm also bothered that the brutal murder of the pregnant Israeli mother, and her four daughters, didn't get more mainstream coverage than it did.

No argument here.

I want nothing more than the defeat and complete destruction of Hamas, Fatah and all the other murderous groups of Islamo-fascists that beleaguer Israel.

I want the West to win the war against militant Islam and if it takes deaths (especially theirs) on the battlefield to achieve that, fine.

Take care.

196 Poitiers-Lepanto  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:39:21am

OT

From FOXNews/AP:

Freedom Tower to Get July 4 Groundbreaking

Wednesday, May 05, 2004

NEW YORK — Developers of the Freedom Tower will break ground on the 1,776-foot skyscraper at the World Trade Center site on July 4, The Associated Press learned Wednesday.

"On July 4, as we commemorate the founding of our nation, we lay the foundation for our resurgence," Gov. George E. Pataki said in prepared remarks obtained by The Associated Press. "On July 4, as fireworks burst in the sky, ephemeral reminders of our liberty, we will begin to reclaim our skyline with a permanent symbol of our freedom."

Pataki planned to deliver the speech at noon at a gathering of the Association for a Better New York and to visit ground zero later in the day.
The governor had said that he wanted the groundbreaking to be this summer. Organizers say the Freedom Tower will be the world's tallest building.
Pataki was scheduled to announce several other dates in the redevelopment timetable at the trade center site, including that a complete design of the Sept. 11 victims memorial, "Reflecting Absence," would be finished by the end of the year and construction starting in 2006.

Private donors will need to raise money to build the memorial, which is budgeted for at least $350 million.

197 sharona  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:39:28am

Meanwhile, as President Bush considers terrorism and threats to the global economy, followed closely but less ably by Sen. John Kerry, Green Party candidate Ralph Nader expresses his concern over an issue of paramount importance ...

Nader Upset Over (Ads on) Baseball Uniform

While the New York Mets (news) and Chicago Cubs (news) wore similar ads when they played in Tokyo in 2000, and baseball said in advance that the Yankees and Devil Rays would wear patches, Nader said the ads this year "ambushed fans across the country and left them shaking their heads at this obscene embarrassment."

The Green Party is truly amateur & pathetic.

198 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:41:58am

#192 SoCalJustice

I suspect you are right. Nov17 would fit that profile.

199 Mr. Bigglesworth  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:42:03am

Indeed, some of these "atrocities" seem more like college hazing than true torture, but the fact remains, the Army folks who perprtrated this shit were incredibly stupid, and just may contribute to the deaths of some of their brothers-in-arms down the road.

This is not becoming of my country's military, however humorous it may appear in some respects.

It's short sighted, immature and downright stupid.

It really isn't a laughing matter.

200 Pete (detroit)  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:42:15am

#157 mickthemick
Yepper, proud Anglo homeowner in East Dearborn. Never did quite the the point of the dust-up over Hamtramic myself. It was almost an issue for a minute or two before Yserman caught a puck in the face... I'm sure some people are still upset about it, but it's dropped off the radar, that I've seen.

201 Thom™  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:42:22am

#194 Right Wing Conspirator

LOL. I don't mind ...

[Link: www.cinemax.com...]

202 Goldie  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:42:33am

197 - sharona

Hilarious. That says all that needs to be said about that fool Nader.

Reminds me of something I heard lately - the LLL is worrying about whether the knife that's being stabbed into the West's back is clean enough.

203 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:43:30am

Sharona,

ads on uniforms are kind of tacky.

On the other hand, they are a good thing on race cars as it makes it easier to tell them apart at 195 mph.

204 andthenblammo!  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:44:43am

#197 sharona:

Remember a long time ago when El Nadir tried to whip up the nation's sports fans into a frenzy over how much they paid for the hot dogs and beer at ball parks? I suspect Ralph Nader is a...Cubs fan (ptoooey).

205 V the K  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:45:35am

#197 --- sharona. It's pretty consistent with Green and LLL thinking. They are also convinced Wal-Mart is a greater threat to America than Islamo-fascist terrorism. (Just like Pee Wee Gordo thinks what happened in Florida in November 2000 is a bigger deal than what happened in New York in September 2001.)

206 scaramouche  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:47:32am

In all the current hysteria over prisoner abuse, the media seem to be downplaying the Sadr story. Apparently, the angry Mullah is not quite the tiger he used to be:
[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

207 SoCalJustice  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:48:04am

(#198) RIP Ford

Did you see tillsville's comment on the bombing thread?

208 zipity  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:48:20am

andagain said: You sound defensive...:) No just realistic. Reality is refreshing, you should try it sometime...

209 turbo v8  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:48:32am

The horror... the horror.

210 sharona  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:48:34am

Great saying, Goldie! Very true.

Ed Moran: Granted, ads on uniforms are tacky, but they are also SOP in the Japanese Baseball system. It's not as if they will be doing the same thing here, and besides: Does Ralph Nader really think that Americans were "ambushed" and "obsenely embarassed" by the presence of an ad on Derek Jeter's uniform? Give me a break!

That and his choice of the word "ambush" is inexcusable at a time when many US families are receiving the news that their soldier sons and daughters died in a real ambush.

211 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:48:52am

Athos


I probably should find out who at NMPC I should write to about getting a wallet sized shellback card sent to me.

If you think about the whole crossing the line thing, there are some pretty strong homosexual elements. Including the beauty pageant the night before (the winner is Neptune's queen and doesn't get hazed). I didn't even enter. Maybe its just me, but for some reason it seems like the Filipino mess cooks always had the advantage in transvestite beauty contests.


Did I ever mention I've been drunk in the Philippines?

212 mickthemick  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:49:14am

#200 Pete(detroit)
Cool. Thanks for the reply. Yes, too bad about Yzerman & the Wings, and the Tigers are slumpin' after a great start.

213 uvaprep  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:50:07am

anyone who has crossed the equator or pledged a southern fraternity had it a lot worse than those "innocent" iraqi prisoners.

214 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:50:35am

Sharona

I didn't know al Nadir used "ambushed".

Does anybody know if Ralph is a virgin?

215 Solomon X (rochester hills)  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:53:30am

Pete (detroit)

I too am suffering post traumatic red wing loss syndrome and related flashbacks to setvie y flailing on the ice.

hi mickthemick!

I'd comment on the ham-town thing, but I am too sheltered in the northern burbs to have a feel for what the mood is down there.

216 ted  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:53:52am

Expressions of Sympathy
To anyone who would like to Menachem Avel - Comfort the Mourner - to David Hatuel I received the following e-mail from an Israeli friend:

Expressions of sympathy for David Hatuel of Katif, whose wife and daughters were murdered by Palestinians, can be sent to him via his neighbor, Irit Ben-Aryeh, whose email address is abirit @ zahav.net.il

Hebrew preferred, but English would still be very much appreciated.


I guess that the neighbor will pass on condolences.
May we only hear good things from Israel in the future.

217 Geepers  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:54:22am

Add "Crazy Troll Invasion" to the 'wouldn't that make a great name for a band' list.

Thanks Goldie. :-)

218 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:55:36am

#207 SoCalJustice

Wow, thanks for linking that. I'm not looking forward to the games this year.

219 mickthemick  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:56:00am

#214 Ed Moran

Does anybody know if Ralph is a virgin?

Yes, Ed, he is. Over the years Ralph has repeatedly warned Americans about the dangers of the human vagina. Besides, what woman could put up with the inevitable pre-coital inspections Ralph would demand before engaging in the act?

220 uvaprep  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:56:11am

my pledge brothers and I were once hazed by being locked in a room and forced to listen to debbie gibson singing "shake your love" on endless loop for 4 hours.

221 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 8:58:29am

I do recall when the alcohol addled youth at the Kappa Alpha fraternity at UT back about 1990 had an "Old South" party. The members dressed in Civil War uniforms, their dates dressed a la Scarlett O'Hara. They had their pledges dress in blackface and brillo wigs, and act as servants at the party, which was bad enough, but then they sent some of the pledges out to pick up more alcohol when they ran low.

I also remember the controversy when the Fijis had their "low hoop" basketball tourney, and had commemorative t-shirts made that featured the head of the "Fiji Islander" (bone through the nose kind of thing) on the body of Michael Jordan.


At UT, pledging a Greek social frat was expensive (ball park of $500/month or more, and that didn't cover living in the house). My theory, at a public school, the frats had to have high dues to keep the lower socio-economic class people like me out. Their loss, IMHO.


I did, however, pledge Pi Epsilon Tau, the petroleum engineering honor fraternity. Not everybody could be in Pi Ep, no sir, needed a 3.6 GPA in petroleum engineering.

222 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:00:02am

Mick

I thought so.

223 Athos  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:00:12am

#211 Ed Moran abu Shellback

If you think about the whole crossing the line thing, there are some pretty strong homosexual elements. Including the beauty pageant the night before (the winner is Neptune's queen and doesn't get hazed). I didn't even enter. Maybe its just me, but for some reason it seems like the Filipino mess cooks always had the advantage in transvestite beauty contests.

It seems to be a common element in some of the "hazing" incidents...most of mine when I was in were related to sweating and drinking...with a few foreign substances added to the beer.

Po city, eh?

Nothing wrong with 2 bit drinks...massive quanities help.

224 zulubaby  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:00:45am

ted (#216)

Thanks.

225 Renna  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:00:51am

But Ed, are you drunk today?

226 sharona  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:00:57am

andthenblammo!:

I suspect Ralph Nader is a...Cubs fan (ptoooey).

As a Chicagoan, I take offense to that!

No, seriously, Ralph would likely be a fan of what a friend of mine calls "the Flubs". I knew the management wasn't serious about building on last year's amazing season when they brought Greg Maddux back. It was a clear ploy intended to enthuse the faithfull, who would be blind to the fact that Maddux should have retired already. I like the guy personally, but he's no longer a threat. Try speaking those words in my family, lol! Although they have accepted the fact that I am a Yankees fan, so anything is possible!

Ed Moran:

Nader said those exact words. It's a quote from the link I provided. As for his virginity, I let's just say that he's the antithesis of female viagra, ya dig? Dennis Kucinich also plays on that team.

227 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:01:27am

#193 Ed Moran:

song we used to sing in L' Resistance to keep our morale up as we battled the Alemans

I'll take "Return of the Pink Panther references" for $100, Alex.

#166 andagain:

I'd like to think our standards are more than a little bit higher than those of Saddam, or of Palestinian terrorists

The fact that you can even register doubt in this area speaks volumes about your preconceptions. Let's see, I'm trying to remember the times when purported human rights abuses prompted an apology from Saddam and a thorough investigation by his government... ditto Arafat... nope, can't think of any. But to you it's all the same, isn't it?

228 zulubaby  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:01:48am
May we only hear good things from Israel in the future.

Amen.

229 uvaprep  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:04:49am

Other notable hazing memories-

standing in boxers in front of a bunch of sorority girls while reading letters to Penthouse Forum.

Eating a microwaved octopus

having to go up to girls at the dining hall and offering them an assortment of desserts

Ed- my father was a meteorologist before he retired. Worked for the Nuclear Regulatory Agency and the old Weather Service and US Army prior to that. He was also stationed in the Arctic (Resolute Bay, Thule Greenland, etc...)

230 steve miller  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:05:24am

Four American contractors butchered & barbecued, then hung on the Fallujah bridge -- tsk, tsk

Some Iraqis are humiliated - OH THE HORROR! BUSHLIED! OIL! WMD! FLORIDAVOTE!

231 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:05:33am

Austin was an interesting place to go to college. Major LLL town, but good music, only public nude beach in Texas (unfortunately Hippy Hollow is mainly a gay men's hangout). When I was a student, most students were pretty apathetic, such that the LLL's were able to elect a proud lesbian communist as student council president.


But UT did have the Young Consrvatives of Texas, and College Republicans.

Me, mainly I just studied, after an intense first year of partying.

Have I ever mentioned I've been drunk in Austin?

232 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:06:33am
233 riverofpearls  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:08:25am

101 andrew 5/5/2004 09:59AM

Thanks for your response. I, too, am concerned that this stuff was sanctioned by CIA and military intel types, that it was more than prankish buffoonery - weren't there at least 1 or 2 deaths that are being investigated?
For me the main concern is for the soldiers on the ground and their safety. The actions of these few have put the american soldier on the ground in jeopardy and peril. I was reading this article [Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Many high ranking officers were also involved either through actual doing of the abuse or ignoring the abuse. While this is a big black eye for the american military most officers and enlisted are honorable men and women. That BG Janis L. Karpinski, Commander, 800th MP Brigade is a disgrace and should be relieved of command in addition to receiving a court martial.

As for Senator Biden's remark concerning Skull and Bones I do hope he was not inferring that President Bush had anything to do with this abuse. In this mess I hope no one uses this incident for political purposes. This is about military personel who were unfit.

234 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:09:16am

227 OR

I was wondering if anyone would get that.

235 urthshu  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:09:44am

185
WRT commies and islamofascists finding common cause: There seems to be a growing connection. ATOL has an article where AQ is suspected of going into Nepal and linking up with Maoists.
here

236 LtTw  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:11:04am

The media is proving to be biased and hypocritical, as usual. So are the other "bleeding hearts." They are, once again, abusing a whole class of people!

I say their victims are the muslims.

1. The U.S. and/or allies involved in wrongdoing of *any* level is major, multiple-day news at the same intensity as the early 9-11 coverage (if not greater), while good news is ignored or minimized--IOW, that's not news.

2. Large-scale and/or egregious violence and other wrongdoing by Islamists is ignored or minimized--IOW, that's not news.

3. By condoning (through consent OR silence) the continual violence and other wrongdoing of Islamists, the media and "bleeding hearts" clearly demonstrate their lower expectations of *all* muslim people.

4. Therefore, the media and "bleeding hearts" treat muslims as inferior creatures that cannot function at a high moral/social level.

The greater the coverage, the greater the shame and humiliation imputed.

237 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:11:48am

Nope, not drunk, but lunch hour is over, I gotta get back to work.

(Um, I was able to drink a lot more when I was a teenager without feeling crappy the next day. ¡ Que Lastima! I can't drink on work nights anymore.)

238 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:12:10am

#231 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback

Have I ever mentioned I've been drunk in Austin?

Who hasn't? :P

239 TMF  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:13:58am

Ed Moran:

"Petroleum Engineer"?

Is that PC Speak for gas station attendant?

Do you need a diploma for that?

;-)

240 riverofpearls  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:16:07am

#96 Marshall 5/5/2004 09:56AM PST
[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Thanks for the link. Still reading it. My printer is not hooked into this computer so can't print and for some reason msnbc will not come up on other pc.

241 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:18:36am
242 CheezNCrackers  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:19:43am

ROFLMFBBO (rolling on the floor laughing my fat brown butt off)

Yes. I can see how "humiliating" (see, I can do scare quotes too) a terrorist is the moral equivalent of burning him alive and dismembering him.

Yeah ... that's the ticket

243 Globular Custard  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:21:09am

I posted this on an earlier thread.

---
My brother had a friend who joined a frat at another school. During rush week they were all asked to get naked in a room and watch various porn videos. If you got a boner you were out. The goal was to either make sure everyone in the frat was gay or to make sure everyone in the frat had self control.

Either way, I wouldn't wanna join that frat. But still, that was not any worse.
---

244 Sean  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:21:09am

That's Ok, ploome. I ducked the friendly fire! ;^)

I kinda oughta remember to tag my sarcasms.

FWIW- I don't for the life of me understand why some frikkin' idiot even made those photos. If your going to be bad, don't take pictures of it!

245 Globular Custard  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:23:25am

It is sufficient to punish those responsible for these incidents. It is not the job of the president to lower his pants and bend over to the Arab street every time a few people in a giant army screw up.

That's why we have Powell.

246 LtTw  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:26:41am

#159 RIP Ford 5/5/2004 10:22AM PST


#154 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback

Is there any place you have not been drunk?


Beg pardon, but I was sure I'd read something recently, and I just had to look it up:

Yep.

I've never been drunk in LaFourche or Plaquemines parishes, but I have boarded boats and helicopters there.


And yesterday:

But I've never been drunk in Greece.

Doesn't mean he's finished traveling, though.

247 zulubaby  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:26:51am

Sean (#244)

FWIW- I don't for the life of me understand why some frikkin' idiot even made those photos. If your going to be bad, don't take pictures of it!

I keep wondering about that. So stupid.

248 andagain  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:28:23am
The fact that you can even register doubt in this area speaks volumes about your preconceptions. Let's see, I'm trying to remember the times when purported human rights abuses prompted an apology from Saddam and a thorough investigation by his government... ditto Arafat... nope, can't think of any. But to you it's all the same, isn't it?

Thanks for your complete misunderstanding of what I was saying. I wasn't "registering doubt," I was saying that Americans should take this seriously because of our high standards.

Not surprising, though, that another imbecilic neo-Con fails to get the point, though.

See ya...have fun with your fellow Troglodytes

249 Sean  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:28:25am

Hey, It's way OT but GREAT!:
Moore: Disney Is Blocking My Movie

THE HORRRORRR!!!

250 mickthemick  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:28:48am

#245 Globular Custard
IMO, President Bush needs to address the foreign media at times. At least he did not speak to al-Jazeera. Furthermore, our own media is beating him over the head with this as well, all the while feigning concern for the Iraqi abuse victims. As Commander in Chief, the President is at the top of the chain of command, and the subject of the interview was alleged abuses carried out by members of the U.S. military. 'Tis better for the President to come out and denounce the acts himself than to send to Sec. of State to do it.

251 Sean  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:31:49am

Yup, Zulubaby, it boggles the mind...

And that rat-bastard marshall better'd watch his ass!
I'd consider his remarks to be worthy of banning.

252 Renna  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:32:57am

#245 Globby

Funny you should mention bending over and lowering pants because part of me was hoping that W's apology would be something along the lines of Bart Simpson's apology to the Aussies. A mooning with "Don't tread on me" written on his backside.

253 SoCalJustice  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:34:46am

(#244) Sean

FWIW- I don't for the life of me understand why some frikkin' idiot even made those photos. If your going to be bad, don't take pictures of it!

I have a couple of theories ranging from "stupidity" to "simple whistleblowing" to "anti-war activism."

Not every person in the Pentagon and in the military in the field is 100% behind our efforts in Iraq, and it doesn't always have to manifest itself by someone rolling hand grenades into a commander's tent.

There are subtler and more effective ways to get one's message across, including trying to let the world, and the Iraqis, think that we don't have the best intentions.

Obviously some of our men and women do not have the best intentions, and exposing that - well, it serves a political purpose.

254 mickthemick  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:36:16am

#251 Sean

And that rat-bastard marshall better'd watch his ass!

That would be hard to do considering his head is obviously shoved up there.

255 Sean  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:39:20am

SoCalJustice-

There could be that element to it.

I keep remebering that many immature idiots often make a record of their stupidity. The Grrrls Initiation in Chicago, Rob Lowe at the Altanta Democratic convention, The Marine Drill Team hazing, ...

Do I need to go on?

256 andrew  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:41:14am

#231 Ed Moran

Even I have been drunk in Austin.

257 Sean  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:42:53am

Mickthemick:
RIMSHOT!

258 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:43:59am

#248:

Not surprising, though, that another imbecilic neo-Con fails to get the point, though.

Oh, snap! That was a great comeback! I just have to concede defeat, ya know? So you were admiring the high standards of America, got it. Sorry for misunderstanding you.

Just one more thing. If that's the case, why did you write:

No, I think we'll get that back when we start living up to our words, not hypocritically touting peace while starting unprovoked wars, or touting human rights while torturing prisoners.

But... but... I thought you believed we had high standards? And yet here you seem to be saying that's all mere "hypocrisy". The contradiction in your position seems so... what's the word I'm looking for... imbecilic.

259 Pete (detroit)  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:44:28am

#241 ploome hineni

how do the acts of DISGUSTING CRIMINALS sexual molesters, get transferred as examples of 'AMERICAN' sanctioned behavior?

Seems to me that "Harmless Satire" is step one...

260 riverofpearls  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:45:46am

While many of you want to liken this incident to a college fraternity prank I feel you are missing the point. If you will read the
U.S. Army report on Iraqi prisone[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...] abuse at
you will see this is a military problem first. From this report you can see the lack of military discipline which eventually lead to the abuses. It is not all right to compare atrocities done by extremist on americans to the abuse by the US military on Iraqi prisoners. If we are to be the beacon of light we desire then we should never condone abuses to any people by our military. And before any of you attack me for being against the US military let me remind you I have a son who is Capt in US army and grandson in Fallujah in USMC. Believe me the Capt is not happy with this mess. These few idiots brought shame to the US military. And should be punished for their crimes and incompetence starting from the highest officer to the lowest enlisted person. It is never OK for anyone to disgrace this country by their actions. There is no excuse.

261 Roger  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:46:42am

Well I never expected to be in full agreement with Gordon(#1 Gordon) but I am.

What some of you don't realize is the serious consequences of what you are revealing about yourselves. For example those who are having so much fun with this are ones who's opinions about other peoples and other conflicts will have less weight in the future.

262 Mary  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:47:36am

French farmers upset...

Way OT, and sorry to interrupt, but this is unbelievable.

263 Roger  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:49:44am

#253 SoCalJustice, No way. You wouldn't take pictures of yourself in the view. You would take pictures and then get somebody else caught with them.

264 SoCalJustice  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:50:00am

(#255) Sean

Do I need to go on?

Nope. It easily could be just that.

/although you could have mentioned Paris Hilton too

265 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:50:00am

I once considered ordering a beer at the aiport bar in Anchorage (near the giant white bear), but decided it was too expensive.

Therefore, 100% sobriety in our 49th state.

266 mickthemick  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:50:50am

#262 Mary
Awww, those farmers are just jealous that they didn't get Paris & Nicole. ;)

267 Alouette  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:51:18am

OT

Israpundit has a contact address for sending condolence messages to David Hatuel.

268 Marudkhai  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:51:23am

By the way there seem to be people who actually believe that this is a straight news story, and that Sen. Biden actually said all that...

Holy crap... What's going on? I thought THEY were the idiotarians, not US!!!

269 Cochrane Collins  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:52:29am

#253

Wow!

Maybe we should screen DOD for Democrats, assorted peacniks, trade unionists, PETA members and other traitors!

Cochrane Collins

270 brianstien  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:53:11am

OT, with apologies if already posted: President Bush keeps his word, and goes jogging with Staff Sergeant Mike McNaughton, who lost his leg in Afghanistan.

271 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:53:27am

#264 SCJ:

although you could have mentioned Paris Hilton too

Oh, that's your answer to everything...

272 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:53:39am

Nobody seemed to be selling alcoholic beverages when I was in al Masirah, so I can safely proclaim I have never been drunk in the Arab world.

I can't remember whether I seethed or not. It doesn't count, I don't think, if you visit the Arab world but don't seethe.

273 riverofpearls  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:53:54am

260 riverofpearls 5/5/2004 11:45AM PST
Sorry here it is again PREVIEW! PREVIEW!
While many of you want to liken this incident to a college fraternity prank I feel you are missing the point. If you will read the
U.S. Army report on Iraqi prisoner abuse at [Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...] 01/

you will see this is a military problem first. From this report you can see the lack of military discipline which eventually lead to the abuses. It is not all right to compare atrocities done by extremist on americans to the abuse by the US military on Iraqi prisoners. If we are to be the beacon of light we desire then we should never condone abuses to any people by our military. And before any of you attack me for being against the US military let me remind you I have a son who is Capt in US army and grandson in Fallujah in USMC. Believe me the Capt is not happy with this mess. These few idiots brought shame to the US military. And should be punished for their crimes and incompetence starting from the highest officer to the lowest enlisted person. It is never OK for anyone to disgrace this country by their actions. There is no excuse.

274 hobgoblin  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:54:14am

fratboys (and girls)

The latest from the Commisar (no, he's not really a commie, he's just making fun, like

275 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:54:20am
276 SoCalJustice  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:55:01am

(#263) Roger

No way to what? The people who "posed" in the pictures are clearly idiots.

I have no idea who took the pictures and why.

277 Occasional Reader  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:55:23am

#270 brianstein:

Expect this story to be spun by the Michael Moores and Ted Ralls as, "Bush humiliated a soldier who lost his leg, by forcing him to go jogging!".

278 andrew  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:55:58am

#270 brianstien

Great article, thanks.

279 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:56:06am
280 halldor  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:56:54am

#185 scaramouche

I wouldn't be surprised if in Greece, as elsewhere in Europe, the Islamists and the leftists work together to cause as much damage as they can.

281 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:57:22am
282 Gargamel  Wed, May 5, 2004 9:59:56am

#273 riverofpearls

I agree with you 100%

283 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:00:35am

274


I agree 100%


I think some people are making jokes because the mainstream media and the rest of the LLL think this is so important, while ignoring Pali murderers and mutilated corpses.

They are right that the media and LLL have whacked priorities, but especially cosnidering the long term harm this propaganda vicotry for al Jazeera will do, this isn't a laughing matter.

IMHO.

284 Roger  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:01:24am

#276 SoCalJustice, No way somebody did this as an anti-war act or as an effort to sabotage the war effort.

285 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:01:46am
286 lawhawk  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:02:00am

Forgive me for being ignorant on this aspect of matters, but isn't the repeated airing of these photos a violation of the Geneva Convention, which prohibits POWs from being abused?

In particular, isn't the release of these photos a violation of Article 13 of the Geneva Convention?

[Link: www.unhchr.ch...]

Granted, these individuals were likely abused and other violations of the Geneva Convention on the treatment of POWs may have occurred, but what of the continuing abuse suffered by these POWs via the repeated transmission of the photos?

287 brianstien  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:02:11am

#77 Occasional Reader

Yep. And did you see how the Chimp was gloating? Smirking bastard.

/sarc

288 Roger  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:03:48am

#279 ploome hineni, you missed reading between the lines. Do I need to spell it out for you?

289 Infinite Justice  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:06:05am

OT:
LA Mall Threat

This junior jihadi doesn't realize what sort of disruption he caused here. Many of the girls at work said hence they would avoid the malls and do all their shopping online.

290 SoCalJustice  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:06:14am

(#271) OR

Oh, that's your answer to everything...

Hey, when making arguments, you gotta bring out the heavy artillery - if for no other reason than the ratings alone. ;-)

291 Thom™  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:07:21am

#286 lawhawk

I think the distinction is that it is not the government/military who released and is airing these pictures in an attempt to humiliate the prisoners, or intimidate their fellow travellers. The actions of independent news orgs aren't covered in the conventions.

292 SoCalJustice  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:09:37am

(#284) Roger

No way? You sure of that?

Who gave the photos to 60 Minutes, and why?

We don't know yet, do we?

293 Sean  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:09:50am

SoCalJustice,

although you could have mentioned Paris Hilton too

She's got a textbook case of Attention Slut Disorder. (Please name any talent that she has other than what was on that video ;^} ) That excludes her. She put that video out on the [Link: WWW...] pump up her "Reality Show."

294 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:11:24am

From Tim Blair:

"Today is Cinco de Mayo," writes Texan reader Bob C. "It celebrates the day that Mexico kicked France's ass. Do you know if the following countries have similar holidays?"

Britain
Germany
Algeria
Vietnam
Haiti
Austria
Italy

LOL

295 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:12:57am
LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- A purported terrorist threat against a West Los Angeles shopping mall last week turned out to be a fake, authorities said.

Zameer Mohamed, 23, was charged Tuesday in federal court with a single felony count of using a telephone to maliciously make a false threat. He could face up to 10 years in prison if convicted.


289- I'm glad there wasn't really an Islamic terror threat against the mall. I'll bet Zameer was a Presbyterian. You can tell by the name.

296 SoCalJustice  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:13:21am

(#281) ploome

I didn't look that closely.

297 Right Wing Conspirator  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:13:56am

OT - more fun in the UK:

Police to probe ‘martyr’ pledge

A MUSLIM who publicly declared his support for the Madrid terrorists and claims he wants to be a `martyr' is being investigated by police.
Hassan Butt, aged 24, from Manchester, featured in a TV programme which alleged that British Muslims are preparing to take up arms despite the efforts of the police and security forces.
Butt, who has previously been arrested twice under the Terrorism Act, said he "envies" the Madrid bombers and that he too would like to become a martyr.
He said: "It is my hope that by the age of 40 I am a martyr - and if I hadn't I would probably be a bit dejected in not being among the martyrs of Islam."

Breaking News :

"Police probe and investigate Butts"

Cool. How do I join :-P

298 zulubaby  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:13:58am

Infinite Justice (#289)

He's a Muslim? Shocking!

299 Roger  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:13:59am

#292 SoCalJustice, I thought you were talking about the abusers/prison guards doing it for that purpose?

If I was a news person and the photos and story fell into my hands I would have published them so the motives of the publishers is moot. The story should come out and the abusers are tried and punished.

300 Sean  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:14:11am
Bluto: "Your Delta Tau Chi name is...Pinto."

RIP Ford,

I know exactly where the name originates. It comes from a very old short story in National Lampoon titled, "Pinto's First Lay." The story is by Doug Kenney and pre-dates Animal House.

301 Sean  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:21:27am

Correction Rip:
by Chris Miller

302 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:23:33am

#300 Sean

Yup, I heard that they roughly based the movie on those articles from the mag.

303 TalkinKamel  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:25:38am

#93 Marshall

"Obey. George Bush is God. Bill Clinton is Satan."

Gosharooties, Marshall has another point, by cracky! What we should be saying/thinking is "Obey. Dubya is Bushitler! Hillary Clinton is the great mother goddess, who will save us all!"

By the way, if Marshall is starting to threaten people, shouldn't he be banned?

#Geepers

"Insane Troll Invasion" is a great name for a band! Someone should use it!

304 Dirk Diggler  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:25:49am
My brother had a friend who joined a frat at another school. During rush week they were all asked to get naked in a room and watch various porn videos. If you got a boner you were out. The goal was to either make sure everyone in the frat was gay or to make sure everyone in the frat had self control.

I heard of events at Texas A&M where fraternity pledges formed a tight circle and stuck their index finger up the ass of the guy in front of them. Perhaps it was an urban legend, who knows. Nonetheless, I never contemplated joining a fraternity after that hearing that. Pledge rituals might not have been as 'invasive' as the one I described (assuming it even occurred) but they still struck me as childish and stupid. I find it bizarre that someone would pay to subject themselves to abuse at the hands of their 'brothers'.

305 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:28:18am

Zameer Mohammed.

I'm spooting a trend.

DC Area Sniper- John Mohammed
9-11 Head Hijacker - Mohammed Atta
7/4/02 El Al LAX ticket counter killer Mohammed something.


I think that "M" name brings such shame and humiliation it drives people to crime and insanity.

306 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:29:08am

#304 Dirk Diggler

That is a new one to me. I suspect that is was an urban legend. They had a real issue with hazing in the Corp and Frats, but I've never heard anything that bad.

307 Colt  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:29:17am

#297 RWC

A MUSLIM who publicly declared his support for the Madrid terrorists and claims he wants to be a `martyr' is being investigated by police.

Terrorist announces intention to be suicide bomber. Police respond by... investigating.

Butt should have been killed years ago.

308 observer  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:31:27am

Are you not, as Americans and as human beings, very curious to learn more about our fellow citizens who did the things they did?
I'm interested in learning about the circumstances, the "mood" or atmosphere, the reasons they were "ordered" to do what they did or if they simply made up these cruel games. Who or what propelled them to do it. What are their backgrounds? Did some resist, refuse to join in? Who are those people?
The media will do what they always do. The lefties will scream and indict the whole "system." Others will trivialize the incidents.
I really hope we get a chance to hear them speak.

309 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:31:46am

304

Fox Sports Southwest used to show the Aggie bonfire and yell practice they had the week of the big game against UT (until the bonfire accident).

No female cheerleaders, and the poses the "yell leaders" did while wearing homoerotic farmer's coveralls convinced me there is a deep gay undercurrent in the land time forgot aka College Station.

310 SoCalJustice  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:31:47am

(#299) Roger

SoCalJustice, I thought you were talking about the abusers/prison guards doing it for that purpose?

No, I wasn't saying that. Those guys are morons.

But I don't know who took their pictures and what was going through their head at the time. And how the pictures he/she took ended up in the hands of the media.

If I was a news person and the photos and story fell into my hands I would have published them so the motives of the publishers is moot. The story should come out and the abusers are tried and punished.

I'm not questioning the motives of 60 Minutes. I'm questioning the motives of the person who gave the pictures to 60 Minutes. And I don't know if it's the same person who took the pictures or not.

If anyone knows, hopefully they will tell us.

/BTW, happy Cinco de Mayo to everyone - even Marshall.

311 Dirk Diggler  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:32:45am
That is a new one to me. I suspect that is was an urban legend. They had a real issue with hazing in the Corp and Frats, but I've never heard anything that bad.

Yeah I'd say so. When I was there a couple of Corp guys got a little overzealous with the axe handles and beat a freshman cadet to death.

312 rosh  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:33:04am

Oh my goodness Ed Moran, have you heard the news from Hippy Hollow?

Mon May 3, 6:54 PM ET
AUSTIN, Texas - A double-decker party barge capsized when dozens of passengers moved to one side of the boat as it approached Texas' only nude beach.
Sixty people on the boat were rescued Sunday from Lake Travis, including two with minor injuries, authorities said.
The accident happened during Splash Day, a semiannual event hosted at the clothing-optional area by the Austin Tavern Guild, a gay and lesbian bar association.
Witnesses said that all of the people aboard the barge moved to one side after it was tied up at Hippie Hollow, the only public nude beach in Texas, creating uneven distribution and making it tilt.
"As the captain was running upstairs to tell them to move away from the railing, it capsized," dumping its passengers into about 39 feet of water, Travis County sheriff's spokesman Roger Wade said.
Wade said it was unclear why the people all were on one side of the boat.
313 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:33:54am

I recall about 1989 there was a story in the papers about a Vietnamese American women pledging the Corpse who was given a "blanket party".


That does not stop me for wishing A&M well when they play out of conference games.

314 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:33:56am

#308 observer

Are you not, as Americans and as human beings, very curious to learn more about our fellow citizens who did the things they did?

In due time, but for now, all we can do is either speculate or wait.

315 Sean  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:34:37am

LOL Ed!

My brother's an Aggie. That makes your comment extra funny!

316 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:34:55am

Oh G-d, not another Aggie thread.

317 halldor  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:37:36am

#294 RIP Ford

Britain has the May Bank Holiday (Monday last), and no one seems to know exactly what that celebrates - possibly the quashing of the French beef ban in 1999? :-)

318 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:37:45am

312

Rumor has it, once upon a time, young women actually went to Hippy Hollow to get nekkid.


When I lived in AUS the local G&L community was having a cow because the Travis County Sheriff's Dept. had undercover agents visit HH and arrest people doing lewd acts in public.

319 Roger  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:39:37am

Well in a year or two the Iraqi prisoners, abused and unabused, will be hiring high priced USA lawyers and all of us will pay, pay, pay.

320 Sean  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:39:46am
Oh G-d, not another Aggie thread.

At least until Charles gets back from his latest Cycle of Violence adventure and posts a new thread1

321 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:42:08am

Darn

"British Dhiimitude Watch" thread cuts the Aggie jokes off early.


Curse you Sean, you jinxed it!

322 observer  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:42:23am

#314, RIP Ford

I wouldn't mind hearing or reading some informed, thoughtful speculation. I dread the bombast our stable of pundits will offer.

323 Dirk Diggler  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:44:17am

U-r-r-r-r-g-h-h, I hate Austin. Every time I went there I either was arrested or got into a fight. On one occasion I got jumped by seven Hispanic guys outside of this bar called Coppertank.

324 Sean  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:45:30am

Ed, you ride, you should've picked up on the 3-4-5 hour breaks in postings. Also notice when the weather doesn't cooperate and he posts a lot more!

325 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:46:14am

#311 Dirk Diggler

Are you sure that's right? I don't recall that, but then again, I don't recall a whole lot from college other than sleepless nights in the Architecture building. I googled, and found nothing.

Then again, my Alma Mater pulled this off in 6 days. The admin, had nothing to do with it either. All student run. Made me cry.

326 rosh  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:49:48am

294 & 317
Liberation Day in France is coming up...

Liberation Day, May 8. V-E Day. This day was established as a public holiday by Giscard d'Estaing during his presidency (1974-1981)

Gotta be some humor in that

327 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:50:02am

#322 observer

I wouldn't mind hearing or reading some informed, thoughtful speculation.

You obviously won't be getting that from me. :P
Seriously, I don't have enough info to even began to speculate as the hows and whys, yet. Sorry I could not be more obliging.


#317 halldor

Since when do people need an excuse to take a day off? :P

328 Dirk Diggler  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:50:29am
Are you sure that's right? I don't recall that, but then again, I don't recall a whole lot from college other than sleepless nights in the Architecture building. I googled, and found nothing.

It would have been around 96'. There was another incident in which a Fiji pledge lost a testicle due to a particular violent wedgie. That occurred about the same time, IIRC.

329 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:51:02am

#321 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback

Save that for the spring picinic.

330 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:53:53am

#328 Dirk Diggler

I heard that one 'bout the fiji. Too funny. I had no need for a frat while in school. There really was no need at A&M. It's not a greek institution at all. That's why I liked going to school there. You very well could be right about the axe handle. Maybe Parsons Mounted Calvary related. I know they were in a deep pile of sh-t when I started school.

331 uvaprep  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:57:13am

there is nothing like being on charette in architecture school. Up for 42 hours straight and using x-acto knives is always a bad combination. Not to mention dealing with 6-aught pens and mylar.

332 Dirk Diggler  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:57:56am

My mistake. They didn't die. Apparently they were forced to perform exercises in a pit of urine and horse manure and then were beaten with axe handles. Such thing as we all know build character.

333 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, May 5, 2004 11:02:02am
334 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 11:07:27am

#331 uvaprep

Tell me about it. The longest without sleep that I managed was 72 hours. I started hallucinating. There was nothing like slicing off the tip of your finger, or stabbing yourself in the thigh at 5 AM and bleeding all over your $300 model. Ah, memories. What a trip. I loved school. LOL

I gave up Professional Architecture for Lent, though. Bad for my wallet. :P


#332 Dirk Diggler

Yup, that's the one. I never did understand the Corp, but had many friends in it. Too each there own, I guess.

335 observer  Wed, May 5, 2004 11:21:48am

#333, ploome hineni

Well, I can understand why you feel that way. Sad thing is, we'll be flooded by easy and shallow generalizations about this within the next few days, both anti-American yelping and frat prank dismissals. By the time fact-filled and thoughtful interpretation becomes possible, we'll be knee-deep into some other god-awful event. So we puddle jump along, rarely digging around for better and often ambiguous kinds of understanding. Journalism ain't history, not even its first appearance.

336 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 11:25:38am
An internal Corps investigation, prompted when Unit Commander Ty Keeling reported hazing to Corps Commandant Lt. Gen. John Van Alstyne in October, concluded that juniors had been hazing sophomores by hitting them with axe handles and forcing them to perform exercises in a pit of urine and horse manure, Van Alstyne said.

Is that guy a real Lt. General? Real O-7 or whatever?

Just curious.

337 Pete (detroit)  Wed, May 5, 2004 11:39:57am

275 ploome hineni

people were making jokes about Jeffrey Dahmer,
not to 'normalise' his behavior, but to be able to cope with seeing his horror

Right, but most of us agree that this "prison hazing" (well, except for the alleged deaths) wasn't THAT horrible, nor was it "normal" nor do we want it to be CONSIDERED "normal" What's the Point of the satire?
The whole incident seems to me to be just wrong, and sad.
Not Funny.
After all, no one is cracking jokes on the woman and girls murdered... That was also sad, and wrong, and un-funny.
Granted, an entirely different order of magnatude, but.

338 Ben  Wed, May 5, 2004 11:40:38am

#45 ibn Abu:

Do we know that the prisoners at Abu Ghraib were specifically ' "non-combatants" engaged in armed hostilities' rather than put in prison for any of the myriad other reasons that Iraqis might end up in jail?

#145 mal:

You remind your readers of Palestinian murder of the pregnant Israeli Tali Hatuel and her four daughters and write that

It is useful to remember this incident and compare the dead silence it has elicited from those same human-rights organizations, media outlets and America-bashers involved in the feeding frenzy accompanying the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. The disparity of outrage is quite revealing.

Perhaps. Part of the disparity can be explained by the fact that the Western citizens have a greater responsibility for the actions of the Coalition military than for the actions of Palestinian terrorist groups. The mainstream media did cover the Hatuel murders. Do you feel their coverage actually left something important out of the story?

Again, I am sure you're right about some human rights watchdogs. But given that human rights organizations in general seem to have a bad reputation on LGF I thought I ought to link to Amnesty International's blunt condemnation of the Hatuel murders.

#156 Sharona:

If you continue at this rate I'm going to think that you are in fact a girl, and one unfortunate enough to be given a boy's name.

A somewhat ill-chosen jibe in light of #18 Pamela? Perhaps were you being heavily ironic.

339 Ben  Wed, May 5, 2004 11:41:18am

Sorry: that should have read "Perhaps you were being heavily ironic."

340 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 11:42:48am

#336 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback
Yes.

And as a side:

Our University President is the Ex-CIA head.
Robert Gates

341 uvaprep  Wed, May 5, 2004 11:50:46am

RIP Ford

There were so many x-acto injuries that I think the floor from the studio to the bathroom was stained with little dollops of blood. Most were minor, but the one everyone dreaded was the thumb slice holding a steel ruler and cutting with the matt knife.

And I once saw a guy get super glue in his eye. He got better.

Hollywood definitely thinks architects make a hell of a lot more than we do in real life!

342 Ward Cleaver  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:00:06pm

On a related topic, one of the local news stations here ran a story last night about a National Guardsman (First Sgt. Daryl Eddings of Ft. Worth), whose regular job is being a U.S. Marshal. That is, he was a U.S. Marshal. His job in Iraq was being a prison guard, until he was beaten by Iraqi prisoners during a prison riot. He was beaten with a piece of rebar, and suffered a pelvic injury which has affected his ability to walk, along with losing most of the use of his right hand. As bad as it may have been for some of the prisoners, it's also no holiday for many of the guards. He was among 13 assigned to guard 73 prisoners. His military career is over (he's taking a disability discharge), and his career as a U.S Marshal is over as well. The story includes a video of the report.

Former Army prison guard in Iraq faces extended recovery

343 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:02:07pm

#341 uvaprep

Hollywood definitely thinks architects make a hell of a lot more than we do in real life!

Most definitely!

I went to the hospital one semester, for exhaustion. Seems I managed to pass out while walking down the hall and awoke in the ER. Sadistic. I really did like pushing myself to the limits. I'd do it all over again.

344 urthshu  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:07:02pm

308
From the looks of the pics, I'd say they were taking souvenir photos. Sick ones maybe, but that's how it looked from here.

345 Beyond satire  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:08:52pm

Compared to the ghastly, unmitigated obscene horror of ROP - without peer as the Greatest Continuous Assault against the Human Spirit in History; this prisoner "abuse" uproar is a turd in the swimming pool.

It is hilarious the way we writhe over such an insignificant "indignity." Like one writer notes, the naked Iraqi has his hip cocked with tension prepared to blow his load in the direction of Sargeant Cutie.

What is humiliating to the ROP is that this fratboy hijinks was photographed and disseminated around the world, not that it in fact actually occurred. They are mad this Iraqi is thoroughly enjoying his stiffy in front of an infidel soldier.

Good Muslims should be more adept at being deceptive about their sexual picadillos. Hence the indignity. Its not a matter of right or wrong to Muslims, it's only a matter of soiled dignity. This is, after all, a religion that apparently takes no stance against mass murder of civilians.

"C'mon guys, who wants to join the contest in front of judge Sergeant Cutie to see who has the largest and hardest gleaming member?"

"And don't everybody try to squeeze through the rec room door simultaneously this time, you guys practically tore it off the hinges last time."

346 papijoe  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:12:32pm

I forgot that it was Cinco de Mayo.
Perhaps I'll stop at the local on the way home and down a "Montezuma's Revenge" or two

347 Robert Schwartz  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:14:41pm

Naked prisoners not new in the Middle East.

Isaiah 20
1 In the year that Tartan came unto Ashdod, (when Sargon the king of Assyria sent him,) and fought against Ashdod, and took it;
2 At the same time spake the LORD by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot.
3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia;
4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
5 And they shall be afraid and ashamed of Ethiopia their expectation, and of Egypt their glory.
6 And the inhabitant of this isle shall say in that day, Behold, such is our expectation, whither we flee for help to be delivered from the king of Assyria: and how shall we escape?

Note: Assyria is in Iraq

348 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:14:46pm

I think a lot of you architect types were fooled by how TV portrayed Mike Brady.


You know Marine Corps training might explain while Charles Whitman was able to kill victims a mile from the tower in Austin, but it doesn't explain why he felt the urge to go on the shooting rampage.

Did you know he was an Arch. Eng. grad student?

Link

349 You Bloody Hypocrites  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:18:29pm

Here's another funny one for you:

---

Israelis Weep as Civilians Are Shot With Paintball Guns

Israelis weeped in the streets and attended memorial services across the nation today to mourn the victims of the latest Palestinian paintball attack.

A family of four living in a Gaza settlement was ambushed as they drove to Shabat services by masked Palestinians who proceeded to pepper the automobile with rounds upon rounds of paintballs. Three children in the back seat sustained injuries as the paintballs brutally bruised their necks when they entered the open window.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon vowed retaliation, swearing that those who committed this heinous act "would be brought to justice, for terrorism will not stand."
---

Hoo hahahahah! Isn't that a riot! It's so funny to joke about the brutal suffering of others. You make me sick.

350 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:19:07pm

#348 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback

Did you know he was an Arch. Eng. grad student?

Makes perfect sense.

I think a lot of you architect types were fooled by how TV portrayed Mike Brady.

Actually, I knew what the situation was like before I entered. I thought my passion for the profession would suffice for the low pay. The starving artist bit got old, real fast.

351 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:20:21pm

You Bloody Hypocrites

Listen up mate, perhaps you should read the comments before posting junk. Cheers.

352 uvaprep  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:20:35pm

Ed-

Actually, I think Whitman had a brain tumor that was discovered upon autopsy, but that was pretty funny.

Elise Keaton on "family ties" was also an architect.

But the best movie portrayal was Charles Bronson in "Death Wish". That's right, he had a real career before full-time vigilantism!

damn, I just realized that I need to refer to myself as "abu polliwog", since I've only crossed the equator in Kenya.

353 papijoe  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:22:32pm

#349 You Bloody Hypocrites

You equate innocent civilians with prisoners of war. Then try to make a moral point. Well done.

354 nicfit75  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:30:18pm

#353- papijoe-
Who said the guys in prison are "innocent civilians"?? Is there a remote possibility that these guys were taken into cusotdy and put in prison for, say, I don't know, shooting at our troops? They're not just rounding up every Iraqi male and putting them in jail.

355 nicfit75  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:31:26pm

Sorry-- that should be custody, not cusodty. Maybe I'll try preview in the future...

356 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:34:41pm

#354 nicfit75

I think you misread him.
The innocent civilians he's talking about are from You Bloody Hypocrites embarrassingly poor attempt at satire. The POW's are those in the Iowahawk parody and the original source of the controversy.

357 nicfit75  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:39:16pm

My apologies to you, papijoe, didn't get your rretort to Bloody and overreacted to you. Sorry! Yeah, been a long day, a long week, etc... and it is only Weds.

358 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:42:33pm

#357 nicfit75

. Sorry! Yeah, been a long day, a long week, etc

And you are apparantly having a nicfit on top of all that. :P

LOL

359 moonflower  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:43:43pm

I went to UT Austin and I actually did make a trip with a few other females to Hippie Hollow out of curiosity - of course this was in the early 70's when there actually WERE hippies there.

360 Gordon  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:49:07pm

#241 Ploome Heinie: you've made a good point.

361 papijoe  Wed, May 5, 2004 12:53:37pm

#357 nicfit75

No problemo.
Señor, another Montezuma's Revenge for my friend here...

362 Powderfinger  Wed, May 5, 2004 1:47:03pm

#286 lawhawk

Forgive me for being ignorant on this aspect of matters, but isn't the repeated airing of these photos a violation of the Geneva Convention, which prohibits POWs from being abused?

It might be, if the Geneva Conventions applied. But, the conventions lay out the rules of war as they should be followed by both sides. When one side doesn't play by them, (and in this case the other side seems to go out of it's way to violate all of them) the other is not obliged to follow them.

That said, most of the behavior in question is idiotic and inappropriate.

363 Ed Moran:Abu Never been drunk in Athens  Wed, May 5, 2004 2:52:00pm

349

Bloody Idiot

I suppose it doesn't make a difference to you that while the abuse of the prisoners was certainly wrong, all or most were caught fighting the US liberation, whereas the latest Pali atrocity involved shooting a 2 year old girl point blank in the head while she was strapped into a car seat.

Of course it doesn't. You're a f*ckwit.

364 Ed Moran:Abu Never been drunk in Athens  Wed, May 5, 2004 2:53:50pm

UVAprep


Did I ever mention I've been drunk in Kenya?

(Mombasa, to be specific).


Jambo!

365 ThePunk  Wed, May 5, 2004 3:00:16pm

You people are completely missing the main reason the Arab male is so embarrassed by being paraded around naked in front of other people. (Especially Americans.)

All Arab men have small penises! In fact, it is really more like a woman's clitoris. In fact, it is sometimes even smaller!!

That is why Arab men hate women... they can not satisfy them sexually, which leads to further abuse such as the mutilation of women's genitals in many Muslim societies.
This leads further to an obsession with religion that promises virgins in the after life. The Arab man cannot please a woman and many Arab Men have such small appendages they cannot even break the hymen!! Allah promises them big penises in Paradise. Also Cheeseburgers are allowed in Paradise. (Note: see reference to Jimmy Buffet in the Koran.) No wonder they want to blow themselves up!!!

American men, with our big American Penises, make them feel very inferior!

As Freud said, it all boils down to "Penis Envy".

366 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 3:03:06pm

#365 ThePunk

Thanks for bringing that crap to this thread.

367 Nannette  Wed, May 5, 2004 3:08:42pm

#349 You Bloody Hypocrites

You bloody sick bastard!

368 ThePunk  Wed, May 5, 2004 3:15:28pm

#366

You must be from France. They are also known to be rather small in the lower regions also...

Take a pill!!

369 Craig  Wed, May 5, 2004 3:16:51pm

Charles,
Clean up on aisle 365, PLEASE!

370 Charles Hammond Jr.  Wed, May 5, 2004 3:19:03pm

For some reason, that doesn't sound like anything more than a hazing incident, although the fact that two people died in our care makes it unacceptable.

On the other hand, say it like it is, and don't embellish, or diminish to fit your worldview.

That's just my opinion.

371 RIP Ford  Wed, May 5, 2004 3:20:53pm

#368 ThePunk

Do your parents know that you are on the computer?

372 Ed Moran:Abu Mis Suegros son Mejicanos  Wed, May 5, 2004 3:30:27pm

365 is just stupid, 349 is vile.

373 Beagle Matamoros  Wed, May 5, 2004 3:30:46pm

#349 You Bloody Hypocrites

Another BBC drone who hates Jews? *Yawnnn..zzz*

374 ThePunk  Wed, May 5, 2004 3:43:37pm

I thought this thread started as a satire???

My attempt at comedy, failing I guess, was in that vain.

The only sick thing about this whole sad event is that the media is treating the "abuse" of the Iraqi prisoners as equal to the way Sadam and Hitler ran his death camps!!!

Meanwhile, our soldiers die daily.

We better wake up soon.

The arabs hate us, regardless of what we do!!! That is the reality.

375 geezer  Wed, May 5, 2004 5:40:30pm

two questions, two comments and one opinion
Q1-WHO TOOK THE PICTURES
Q2- WHY
C1- STUPID-STUPID-STUPID
C2- WHY-WHY-WHY
O1- the Droll Troll says if your going to abuse someone at least draw blood. this looks like an American Idol skit.

376 rcm  Wed, May 5, 2004 6:02:47pm

Personally, I don't see much wrong with the "torture" that the American servicemen subjected the Iraqi *prisoners* too. Why were these guys prisoners in the first place? Because they were jaywalkers? Doubtful. Probably because they were loyal members of Hussein's regime, who more than likely threw legitimately innocent people feet first into plastic shredders or head first off buildings. These guys should be grateful that we didn't kill them en masse (and yes I'm serious--I believe in two eyes for an eye and thirty-two teeth for a tooth, gotta send a message that you're not to be fucked with). They got their just desserts, kudos to the American soldiers for having the moral compasses to make these motherfuckers feel the pain that they themselves had made so many others feel. Payback's a motherfucker.

377 ylreveb  Wed, May 5, 2004 10:06:02pm

Hey, you know, we did some of these things in the Girl Scouts!

teeheeheehee

378 V the K  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:01:02am

Some people see what happened at Abu Ghraib as the worst atrocity and human rights violation in history. Other people see it as not many magnitudes worse than fraternity hazing.

A few people have oozed over to LGF from their usual liberal haunts to lecture us for chuckling at iowhawk's parody, which highlights the latter view. They tell us that we're all evil and don't deserve any snacks.

I guess that enlightened liberal mantra about seeing both sides of everything is just bullshit.


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 Frank says:

Never stop and keep going -- Giving advice to young musicians. early 80's interview with pennsylvania state police officer whom is also a zappa fan. originally to be shown to local high school students of the area but frank ended up on the subject of politics and you can just imagine why the kids never seen this video.