ted rall and those that think like him are the product of a blinded, diseased mind.

Well, of course, we all knew this election year was going to be grossly ugly, but I'm getting my breath taken away. What next? I hear McAwful thinks Rumsfeld should resign. FFC!!!

I would call it 'europeanisation' of the US.

OT/
Is this Charles' first stand alone editorial?

semantics, semantics.

"Perception is Reality"...so sayeth the liberals.

I think Hitler or Goebels said that if you tell a lie often enough people will believe it.

We are witnessing the "manufacturing of consent" or whatever hogwash Chomsky calls it.

THANK YOU, Charles.

When your enemy defines the terms of the debate, the enemy wins.

WHERE WAS CNN BACK THEN???
Where were the torture headlines from CNN when Sadaam was in power...Oh yeah, I forgot, they didn't want to print the truth back then because they could have lost their prestigious Bagdahd office.

From the Tormont Webster's Illustrated Encyclopedic Dictionary:

torture: 1. the infliction of severe physical pain, especially as a means of punishment or coercion. 2. the undergoing of such pain 3. mental anguish 4. a cause of such pain or anguish.

Based on this definition, I don't think anyone would deny that what the U.S. forces inflicted in Abu Ghraib prison was torture.

Clearly torture covers a large array of offenses. Clearly the torture inflicted by Saddam's regime was an order of magnitude (at least) greater than anything our forces have done. And, unfortunately, the English language doesn't have separate words for different levels of torture. Our enemies and the LLL are taking ruthless advantage of this language deficiency, which I think is the best point to come out of Charles' "editorial."

But it was torture nonetheless.

I agree, Charles. It's so wrong to start attacking the military for this non-torture. As you said, the MPs should be punished, but there is no need to go overboard and start using inappropriate words.

I even question some of the new rules--like not using hoods. I read somewhere--probably LGF--that they're needed to control suspected terrorists.

The lives of the U.S. military should not be treated cheaply because of some bad publicity.

This doesn't sound like torture to you?

6. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:
a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;
b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;
c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;
d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;
e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;
f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;
g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;
h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;
i. (S) Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;
j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;
k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;
l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;
m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.

Let's not kid ourselves guys. The Army utterly failed in their responsibility to run the prisons in Iraq properly. And it should piss you off! The US is supposed to be better than this damnit!

I don't understand the furor...So a few Arabs are running around nekkid with their dongs hanging out. SO WHAT??? They weren't tortured, harmed, abused, or maimed. No, the only thing that happened was that they were POSSIBLY humiliated. But no one should give a rats ass about arab humiliation. After all, they deserved it. It would do us a world of good, to shove that arab arrogance up their arse where it belongs. This feeding frenzy by the media to find any fault with America is so pathetic. CLUE IN!!! This is a war. In war you do what is necessary to definitely fuck the enemy up. If that means humiliation then so be it.

#9

According to the dictionary watching "Friends" or "American Idol" with my wife is torture.

1. the infliction of severe physical pain, especially as a means of punishment or coercion.

I've been naked several times, and it didn't hurt. Though I haven't been piled on to other naked people with my hands tied and a hood over my head, I can't imagine it hurting too much.

2. the undergoing of such pain

See above.

3. mental anguish

I have A2 levels in a month. Does that count? I'm serious - if we're to take torture to mean anything that makes one mentally anguished, torture is Avril Lavigne.

4. a cause of such pain or anguish.

See above.

Off topic --Israel bombing Hezbollah in southern Lebonan

[Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

There are other news links just showing up --

After reading Rall's excrescence in the previous post, I think Charles may have more of a point than I thought...

#6 Rednek . . .

I think Hitler or Goebels said that if you tell a lie often enough people will believe it.

So very true, and the end product can be so deadly.

I never thought I'd be so disgusted by the Democrats. I really think they have gone over the edge into endangerment of our country.

On my to-do list of books to read is James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom. I thought it would be interesting to see the role of the opposition (then called Copperheads) during the Civil War. That's how I think of today's Democrats. Foul, disgusting collaborators with the terrorists who want to kill us.

#9 Gordon

Your post reminded me of a joke, the punchline of which is, "I can clearly see you're nuts".

What are you kidding? Torture?! That was frat-boy crap that BOTH 'skull and bones' assholes should know about! Wake up and recognize that it is torture when you can't recover without Dan Rather. I hope I don't get killed, but I AM SURE I won't be tortured, as I am SURE I will NEVER be captured.

Death LONG before geting captured. That is the way all those moronic Jihadi's care about, same as many of us. The Jihadi's realize our mercy and take advantage of it, someone like me will not!! Jihadi'is who feel like kidknapping Americans, should NOT count on me...I would far rather die, rather than be ransomed, throat slit, or burned alive...

Keep in mind though that the pictures are just part of the story. The other actions alleged (but not photographed apparently), do fit within the accurate definition of torture.

Things like (from the Army's report):

"Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet."

It may not be the degree of torture perfected by many Arab governments, but it still qualifies.

Not to mention that there are currently investigations in mulitple deaths (alleged killings) of prisoners.

So, yes, let's keep this in perspective. But not by playing semantics and thereby trying to minimize what was wrong.

In the warped minds of some of the victims, the humiliation they endured was worse than the physical beatings under Saddam. Their leftist apologists agree - after all, we should endeavor to understand and accept their cultural differences.

What I find interesting, is that when I use the "they're not like us" argument, leftists call me a bigot.

#11

No. Sounds like good work by the guards to get the prisoners to cooperate. Hell, I'd have done the same things, with or without orders.

I think the word would be "abuse," and "severe case of abuse," rather than torture. I hope none of the US guards thought that they could get away with this kind of unprofessionalism AND retire from the US Army with benefits.

Whats this obsession with nakedness? Jeez leweeze

#22 Andy in Agoura Hills

Glad you're not there, Andy.

Gotta stand by my previous comment: These were souvenir photos.
-they were getting off their rotation soon
-official torture pics don't have smiling soldiers in them
-when they do, those soldier's are typically pictured from the neck down, and they tend to hold up the victim, as if on display. Seriously, look at *real* torture pics. These guys were being goofballs.

And I'm betting these morons took the film to a civilian photoshop after, too.

None of this is to say that other allegations of abuse [such as deaths] have not occured. I'm looking the ones with the female soldier in them. Neither is it to say I agree with what they did. Just calling it as I see it.

#12

According to the press, Araby is always feeling humiliated (and then seethes) -so what's the problem?

You tell 'em Charles!

Drudge is reporting that Kerry is calling for Rumsfeld's resignation over this. That's right John "the self-confessed Vietnam war criminal" Kerry demands Rumsfeld's resignation.

Funny, Kerry didn't call for Janet Reno's resignation when she, with US Army assistance in violation of the law, murdered women and children in Waco -- under circumstances that were torture. But they were Christians, so to the Dems, well there is nothing wrong about that. The Dems are the rest of the LLL crowd are hypocrites. The thing is that these perps will be punished, but no one ever was punished for the murder of innocents at Waco.

The real disaster in Iraq is being brought on - no surprise - by the US State Department and its un-fireable career leftists and arabsits.

[Link: www.belmontclub.blogspot.com...]

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Amazing that Bush had the guts to pursue and achieve military victory in Afghanistan and Iraq, only to have it undermined by State.

I hope everyone remembers that if Americans appear soft, more people will die (Iraqis and Coalition troops). The MPs who did wrong should be punished, but that should be the end of it. Treating terrorists like they're shoplifters just won't win the war.

Let's remember : It's possible to say that these Iraqis were tortured without then automatically jumping to the conclusion that America is the same as Nazi Germany.

Plus, these people who did the 'tortures' will be punished! Who punished the Nazi guards who ran the gas chambers? Who reprimanded or spoke out against Saddam's tortures?

Perfectly stated Charles
We should and will get our own house in order. The moral onus on us is all the greater because no one else has the moral authority to judge us.
The Islamic world? Please. Nuff said.
Europe or the left? After years of giving the rest of the world's barbarities a pass with their moral relativism, they can't wait to point the finger, as they've done so often with Israel. Sorry, thanks for playing, but when you threw out the standard of an absolute moral value, you disqualified yourself, and no, you can't borrow our moral yardstick to beat us with. Nice try though.

Sad, that what will finally destroy us and give our sovereignty over to the United Naz...I mean, Nations, is...

THE NEWS.

I mean, really. WTF?

#32

Who punished the Nazi guards who ran the gas chambers? Who reprimanded or spoke out against Saddam's tortures?

We did.

Of course we will never get credit for it.

See Gene Fee's blog entry from earlier this week for a fine treatment of this point: [Link: www.sidelinesquawkbox.com...]

#14 Colt

Though I haven't been piled on to other naked people with my hands tied and a hood over my head, I can't imagine it hurting too much.

Your young. Give it time :-P

ps - I think this thread will be a troll magnet today.

#29 Stop Hillary

Drudge is reporting that Kerry is calling for Rumsfeld's resignation over this. That's right John "the self-confessed Vietnam war criminal" Kerry demands Rumsfeld's resignation.

Uggh. How many more months till November? Seven? Good grief Charlie Brown.

#22

So I guess you would have done this too then?

8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):

a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;

f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

Quit playing semantics. The Army failed and failed miserably, and all Americans should be angry about this.

#11- Lonestar,

I gotta say, I think

i. (S) Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked

is just about right.

#37

I think some people are willing to pay for the experience of being bound and piling on a bunch of naked men.

OT:

I noted this article on Yahoo.

[Link: www.wnd.com...]

Looks like the Chinese are helping AQ.

#11 Lonestar:

Of course it pisses us off. But know what's worse?

That the Media has THE POWER to seize upon the actions of some of the jackasses in our military and are doing so in an effort to undermine the war effort.

It smells like Walter Cronkite's adult diaper in here all of a sudden.

Hey...the demo-commies cause me anguish-does this count as torture? Does aborting a baby by the fem-nazis count as torture? Does listening to The Hildebeast constitute torture? Did Viet Nam atrocity boss "JFK lite" get away with torture?...just wondering :-)

Go read the Tagub Report

Abuse? Torture? It's a fine line.

Torture my ass:

THIS is toture, my friends...

Any guess on how many prisoners we have taken?

I am trying to noodle through the obvious glee that so many feel from "this American failure".

An MP called in to CSPAN this morning about how the islamists throw feces, urine and giz (he alluded to that one on air) at the guards.

I guess we should just shoot them. Take no prisoners.

Do we have no stomach whatsoever for war? How the hell are we supposed to fight one?

The arabs will cry about everything in order to weaken our resolve.

#39

Jesus H Christ!!! Can I state my case any more clearly??? If those prisoners were not shitting Tiffany cufflinks, then they definitely needed to be fucked up. WHATEVER it takes, short of death. And eventually, maybe death too.

You said it well Charles. What happened there should never be condoned. And it is not. Those who are guilty will face consequences.

But context is so badly in need here. Abuses happen in prisons everywhere.

What distinguishes our country from the Arab nations is that the guilty are punished instead of promoted.

#37 RWC

Your young. Give it time :-P

Too many jokes, and completely the wrong place to tell 'em...

Charles, I so agree! I'm sorry but the things they withstood can't even be on the radar with the things they inflicted and would again, given half the chance.

Also, since it's so humiliating to be treated like a woman perhaps it ought to happen more often until they learn how it actually FEELS to be a "stupid Iraq woman". Strange how when it's their turn they would rather die.

Are we the only country in the world who cares a bean about how we treat prisoners? Our media goes bonkers about this and forgets about what happened to the four contractors...they weren't even prisoners. We invade a country and drop food on them to sustain them...we go in to build up and liberate and they plant bombs on their own people! Geeze! How can they even be compared?!!

So it was Kerry, Not Mcawful... Not much difference.

#50 Colt

Your right. My apologies.

#17 Promethea -- "On my to-do list of books to read is James McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom. I thought it would be interesting to see the role of the opposition (then called Copperheads) during the Civil War."

They were truly despicable and every inch as bad as the fifth column at work here and now. One thing that you should know, the Copperheads back then were northern DEMOCRATS. Some things never change. You will learn of Clement Vallandingham. There are dozens today in Congress that are more loathsome and repugnant then he was. But, I won't say more, I don't want to spoil your reading.

It is certainly sad that this issue has come up. Prob just being captured and imprisoned is humiliation without dressing them up as a witch and making them stand on a box or doing fraternity tricks like piling on.
More than these stunts tho, how was it communicated by
those officers in charge that this behaviour was OK? that is the part of the whole thing that makes me wonder.

In the final resolution, perhaps the prison will be subcontracted to the Pakistanis or the Sikhs or some of the 'new europeans' to operate.

The poll over at CNN right now is:

Should Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld resign over U.S. military abuse of Iraqi prisoners?

Yes 47%
No 53%

Rape of captives is torture, Charles.

I agree with all your comments about context, degree and propagandism.

But rape is torture, and if that occured, and at least one person finds credible evidencethat it did, that's torture. It doesn't demean English to call the rape of captives torture. It demeans people who have been raped.

Please.

THANK YOU CHARLES!

That's a wonderful editorial which I hope speaks for the majority of us.

The Arabists and Islamists are desperately trying to split up the coalition, stop the war on terror and completely demoralise our troops, so stoop to any level to debase and criticise our boys who are AT WAR with the enemy.

I've not heard much of a squeak about the genocide in Sudan (2 million) or the Congo (2.5 million), where they're also indulging in cannibalism, nor are there reports in the mainstream media about the grotesque forms of torture in Egypt, Saudi, Syria, Libya, Iran, China, etc...

Certain prisoners who are perceived as terrorists need to be questioned and information obtained.

Do we expect our troops to sit these possible terrorists down with a cup of tea and sandwiches in an effort to extract information from them?

I've been hearing tons more about this so-called torture than the mutilations of Americans in Fallujah... I find this a tad disturbing, equating what happened in Abu Ghraib prison to the burning and hanging of bodies in Fallujah. What a sad, sad world we all live in...

My 2 cents.

#53 RWC

None necessary - wrote out several before I remembered 'time and place' :-)

Does anyone know what those prisoners were being held for? I mean in particular?

#29

Funny, Kerry didn't call for Janet Reno's resignation when she, with US Army assistance in violation of the law, murdered women and children in Waco -- under circumstances that were torture. ... The thing is that these perps will be punished, but no one ever was punished for the murder of innocents at Waco.

Those US Army guys you mention who assisted Reno are now Chief of Staff of the Army and Deputy Under Secretary of Defense (War Planning), Rumsfeld says they have outstanding records, I guess he wouldn't agree with your assessment.

#11

I agree entirely. The Army failed; I'm pissed and I'm certain our President is pissed.

61 andrew:

No. Our "investigative journalists" are too busy gnashing their teeth to worry about such a minor detail.

Saddam is now ordering maid service, DVD delivery and Paris cuisine catering.

I do not equate Abu Ghirab with Hussein.

And stripping naked and posing for pictures is not torture. If it offends Arab sensibilities, boo freakin' hoo.

But I saw pictures and read descriptions of the use of electrodes on prisoners.

Electrodes = Torture

(I would add that having to read Ted Rall columns may also constitute a form of torture!)

#58 Nanette

Do we expect our troops to sit these possible terrorists down with a cup of tea and sandwiches in an effort to extract information from them?

Just lovely Nanette: the true spirit of LGF.

Now can we please invade Iran?

#61 andrew

No real concrete specifics yet, I believe. The investigation is on going. That's the main problem with this whole issue. Nothing certain, and rumors are flying. I've heard so many variations of this, that I've taken a wait and see attitude.

As despicable as the acts were that these MPs are accused of, this is not torture.

If you believe otherwise, I’d like to know how you can equate the Abu Ghraib mistreatment with Saddam Hussein’s rape rooms, or with the iron maiden used by Uday to torture the Iraqi soccer team if they lost, or with the bastinado (caning on the soles of the feet) that was a regular punishment for Saddam’s underlings if they fell into disfavor, or with the countless acts of sheer horror that are perpetrated every day under Arab regimes.

Well, I don't equate the two. (1) The abuse of those prisoners is not sanctioned by the government and the perps will be appropriately punished. In Hussein's case, and the other horrors of various Arab regimes, the torture is state-sanctioned. (2) The treatment of those prisoners is an aberration. In the case of Hussein et al, torture was/is routine. (3) What we know of the incidents so far indicates that what happened does not rise to the level of bastinadoes and manicures with needle nose pliers, although there were at least beatings, one of them severe enough allegedly to have killed one (or two?) prisoners. Beatings are clearly torture even if the rest is regarded (incorrectly, imho) as frat house buffoonery.

But it's still physical/psychological/sexual torture.

I also have to say that it's a bit disconcerting to see jokes being made about the sexual abuses in particular. This is perverse, demented behavior and I, for one, fail to see the humor.

I would also like to add that I do not have philosophical objections to torture if info is needed and lives are at stake. But the gratuitous nature of what happened at that prison - the apparent abuse for the sake of amusement - is perhaps the most distrubing aspect of this.

It's also painful on a more personal level since some of these guys are from my ol' stomping grounds in Western Maryland.

#57 Hhar

I agree with all your comments about context, degree and propagandism.

Indeed. I'd like to append that statement to my #68.

100% agree. And well put. It's over the line and the soldiers who did this should be punished.

But it isn't torture. Mistreatment is the best word I can think of.

And let's not get into the fact that torture itself can be justified in some situations (Dershowitz, et al).

I posted earlier about 6 Iraqis who had their arms cut off by Saddam for trading in dollars. That's torture. Girls who have their clitori cut off -- that's torture.

The problem is that LLL, which doesn't understand scale in any sense, quantity or quality, will use this event to argue moral equivalency between the US and Saddam's regime.

I would have said 'hazing' instead of 'torture'.

Just look at this picture about hazing in Russia, one of the axe of peaceful weasels.

[Link: a.abcnews.com...]

And it's in peace time, not war time ; better not to think about war time atrocities. Better forgetting atrocities in Tchetchnia where both sides are as much inhuman.

It's better not to remind about torture in Algeria. It's a very sensitive topic in France !

One of the greatest war stratego, Sun-tzu, told that the defeat of an army is always caused the loss of confidence of the troops and the people. American people must not to fall in the european trap of losing confidence ! It's would be lethal for all the West !
The french government of left-wind pacifists refused to force Hitler not to rearm in 1936, what caused the WWII and 50 millions of deaths.
The same is happening now. Left-wind Europe dreams of dhimmitude while right-Europe dreams of juicy contracts with the devil. USA are the last chance of survival for the rest of the world, and maybe the rest of the world dont deserves it ...

I hope Sarkozy will be a better president than Chirac in 2007. 12 years of Chirac !!! Arrrghhh !! Pray for us.

#11 Lonestar

I’m sure everyone on this board is angry and upset with the soldiers who committed these acts. I certainly am. But I am just as angry with the el cubos who are spewing hyperbole about “torture” and the media’s flood-the-zone coverage. By whipping up worldwide hysteria they are doing just as much damage to the WOT as these incompetent, despicable GIs.

The English language is demeaned and degraded by using such a word inappropriately,

...people just flat out lie too...

I think you're splitting hairs Charles. Sure if you want to analyze it to death what Saddam did during his regime is worse but there is a certain psychological torture that our soldiers perpetrated there. I don't think its worth distinguishing.

I have to disagree with Charles on this one. Certainly, not all abuse is torture. An incident of punching or kicking a prisoner may certainly be abuse but, in and of itself (assuming it's not part of an ongoing process) is not torture. Similarly, humiliation generally does not rise to the level of torture.

However, some of what has been alleged, if true, can certainly be described as torture or, at a minimum, an atrocity (again, understanding that not all atrocities are equal). Raping someone with a broom handle (or with anything, for that matter) in order to break them, get information or purely out of sadism is torture. standing someone on a box and attaching wires to them and then telling them that if they step off they will die is torture, whether the threat is true or not. Forcing prisoners to perform sexual acts is torture. These are not frat pranks and those of us who defend and support our military ought not use semantics as our shield. Rather, we should use our non-political outrage as a sword against those men and women who have disgraced their fellow soldiers and their nation and have let down both the American and the Iraqi people.

As I have stated earlier, their actions will ultimately cost lives on both sides due to retribution, increased zeal and unwillingness to be taken prisoner on the part of our enemies and more resistance from individuals who may otherwise have stayed out of the fight. The individuals who did this have done more harm than any 1,000 Jihadis could ever have hoped to. They are fortunate that I am not in any way involved in their prosecution.

Hhar (#57)

But rape is torture

I did not know that.

If a detainee was raped, I'm still not sure it should be called "torture," unless the rape was planned for a purpose. If it was an action by one MP, I'd call it a crime, certainly.

But which allegation of rape are you talking about? I don't see one in the report at MSNBC. There is an allegation that a male MP "had sex" with a female detainee, but the word "rape" is not used to describe it.

Anyway, hazers should be prosecuted.

I just looked up the definition of "torture" and it doesn't say anything about rape. I'd describe it as abuse, not torture.

I think you're splitting hairs Charles. Sure if you want to analyze it to death what Saddam did during his regime is worse but there is a certain psychological torture that our soldiers perpetrated there. I don't think its worth distinguishing.

Ok dingbat. You have a choice: face treatment under Saddam's regime or face doing weird things naked with a bunch of other smelly guys under US guard.

You take your pick. I know how I would choose in this unpleasant situation.

It is very much worth distinguishing.

In fact, I'll go a step further. If doing this to the guys gets them to cough up critical information about a terrorist attack, then I have to say, unfortunately, that it is a safe, effective means of psychological breakdown.

I'm sure everyone will call me a monster but bring it on.

The whole thing is a disgrace and is going to cause enormous damage to us.

#79 zulubaby:

I would suggetst that rape falls under the category of causing "mental anguish."

Well rape is a civil crime. While torture is war crime.
Rapists should go to jail for years but cant be prosecuted before an international court of justice.

Jheka (#75)

Raping someone with a broom handle (or with anything, for that matter) in order to break them, get information or purely out of sadism is torture.

Actually, that I have to agree with. Were there allegations of rape though?

Rape can be a war crime if it's a systematic use

#81 zulubaby

The whole thing is a disgrace and is going to cause enormous damage to us

Exactly. No matter what your take is on the definition of torture, this much can not be denied.

---

I was trying to look up torture from the Geneva Convention, and though mentioned it is never defined. Any thoughts or help as to where I could find such information would be appreciated.

The whole thing is a disgrace and is going to cause enormous damage to us.

I agree. It really sets us back in the information war with the Arabs.

Except it shouldn't. The problem is the media never covers gross violations of the Geneva convention/human rights violations of the Arabs that occur vastly more frequently and in a vastly worse manner. Never. I mean compare this event with terrorists executing a mother and her four daughters. These episodes are not even on the same planet.

Part of me thinks that if this is such a PR disaster, it was a PR disaster to begin with.

Should these soldiers be punished? Sure. But that's it. Life moves on.

#75:

NSFW. No stomach for war.

I have no stomach for shari'a, which is is why the captured islamists are there, because we are there and islamonazis cannot have us there.

Ah, the lost glorious society of taliban Afganistan. If only the whole arabian peninsula could be like that. Then on to eurabia.

The US? They are too crazy. We must just eliminate the Great Satan.

Raping with a broomstick used to be an usual hazing in France. A former friend of mine get one in the ass. It's barbaric but not reserved to the US army. People speaks about the pen in your eye but cant see the beam in theyrs.

#80 Globby:

Oh, Jesus Christ!! Do you really think that the guards were extracting vital information from these prisoners by forcing them to engage in sex acts? Do you really, honestly believe that? Or do you think that maybe, just maybe they were just a bunch of sick, sadistic shitheads?

There are ways of getting information out of hard (no pun intended) men. The "naked pyramid photo-op" is not among them.

As for your choice, it is a dishonest and false one. The fact that we got rid of Saddam does not give us or anyone else license to engage in any kinds of atrocities up to what Saddam did just as Churchill and Roosevelt didn't have a right to open up kinder, Gentler concentration camps upon the defeat of the Nazis (sadly, Stalin didn't get the memo).

We have standards that our soldiers are supposed to adhere to. They never had any correlation to Saddam's atrocities and should never be tied to them in any way. These soldiers violated those standards and should be punished accordingly.

#83 French Berserker

Not so.

Rape is being considered in the United Nations War Crimes Tribunal. The landmark case involves the kidnapping and the continuos rape of a Bosnian Muslim woman by Bosnian Croat soldiers.

(And, no - I'm not drawing any parallels between the US Army and what happened in Bosnia, and I do not believe that, if rape occurred, a US soldier should go before the tribunal.)

80 Globby

I think everyone is being far too intellectual about this. 'oh rape isn't as bad as blah blah blah... and abuse is slightly less bad than torture- or whatever.
If i had to pick my torture- i'd pick the american's to torture me because i believe there would people out there in America ready to defend me if it were found out that I was tortured. Its a stupid hypothetical and not worth analyzing. What happened is wrong- we all agree- and some may describe it as torture.

#58 Nannette

Agree

#68 Thom

So what if you find out that these MP's weren't in fact doing it for amusement but were ordered to break down prisoners prior to interrogation? Would you support it then?

Globby (#87)

I mean compare this event with terrorists executing a mother and her four daughters. These episodes are not even on the same planet.

The world doesn't care about the pregnant mother and her four babies. They were Jews, after all, and the Palestinians are never held accountable for their savagery. I swear that it will haunt me for the rest of my life.

Be that as it may, this is a separate issue and there is just no getting around the fact that it is damaging. We don't need this. And really, WTF were they thinking taking photographs of this!?

Charles, the UN definition of 'torture' was changed 15 years or so ago to include all interrogation techniques. That was required to condemn one country in the Middle East (guess which one?). It backfires today. I hope this will be a lesson.

#84 zulubaby

The report found:

Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

(Alot of this discussion seems to be theoretical since the whole thing is still unfolding and it's not known exactly what happened.)

#89 French Berserker

Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eys, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?

Original version of the quote:

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

That's the general idea.

#86 RIP Ford

Try the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.

I don't know whether it should be defined as torture or abuse but it is disgusting and disgraceful. And it hurts America as well.

It sounds to me like some of the elements cross the line into torture-lite.

How the media plays it and why other much more horrendous things are under reported is really the issue not the semantics. Even if torture was committed by a small group of soldiers it still shouldn't define the whole venture into Iraq and the over arching issues that are at stake.

We have to remember that our troops are fighting a guerilla war, where there are no set rules.

The press were quiet when our boys were, in many cases ambushed by terrorists in civilian clothes and murdered. There was a 24 hour outrage when the 4 US civilians were murdered in Fallujah, their bodies subsequently burnt and mutilated, by people who have no respect for the fallen.

In Basra, when a bus was bombed, killing children on their way to school, very little outrage was voiced in the media.

It is useful to remember these incidents and compare the near indifference they have elicited from those same "human-rights" organizations, media outlets and America/UK-bashers involved in the feeding frenzy accompanying the Abu Ghraib prison and Iraqi prisoner abuse scandals. The disparity of outrage is quite revealing.

The feeding frenzy demonstrates that even those who hate America and the UK - and never miss a chance to express that hatred - expect us all to adhere to a certain standard of moral decency. The indifference demonstrates that no similar expectations apply to societies that produce baby killers and homicide bombers, or use women and children as "human shields" in combat, clearly violating the 4th Geneva Convention.

Why? Because behind the "high-mindedness" of "universal" human rights is a hypocritical prejudice which allows certain cultures more "leeway" when it come to murder and mayhem, with the organizations "looking the other way" when totalitarian regimes cause immense suffering to their own people, by starving them, as well as using the most inhumane methods of torture.

The leaders of our countries have expressed regret at any incidents which occurred, and this will result in the enemy seeing the coalition as "weak". Contrast that to the leaders of totalitarian states who are widely respected and are seen as strong and unaccountable to the majority their own people.

It will be a long time before the west truly understands the Arab psychology... hopefully it won't be too late. We MUST hold these people to the same moral standards that we hold ourselves to, otherwise they'll never learn.

Yes, there's a war going on right now, a war which is ultimately fighting for our freedom and must not lose.

There is some reasons why the journalists always defends the arab point of view :
-The french AFP is totally corrupted with saudi, libani and syrian money.
-The journalists are at 65% leftist and 35% left-wing (in France, should be the same elsewhere)
-European governments are greatly financed by petrodinars (some friends of Chirac were on Saddam's friendlists ; Chirac sold a nuke plant to Irak)
-CNN 's main ads are arab ads. Did you see that ugly ad for Orascom ?

And they always say that US is loosing the war of information ! But they cant win it, because journalists are judge and party !!

#84 zulubaby:

There have, indeed , been allegations. Whether they are true or not, I don't know at this time:

Those abuses included threats of rape and the pouring of cold water and liquid from chemical lights on detainees, said the internal report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba. Detainees were beaten with a broom handle and one was sodomized with "a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick," the report said, the magazine reported in its May 10 issue.

[Link: www.contracostatimes.com...]

Oh, Jesus Christ!! Do you really think that the guards were extracting vital information from these prisoners by forcing them to engage in sex acts? Do you really, honestly believe that? Or do you think that maybe, just maybe they were just a bunch of sick, sadistic shitheads?

Are you involved in military intelligence and psy ops? I dunno, these people CLAIM that they were encouraged to do this stuff NOT to extract intelligence, but to create a psychological frame of mind that would be conducive to productive interrogation. Frankly I can see value in doing this if that is the intent. Although I don't see the value in taking photos of it.

What a terrible monster I am. You forget that the investigation is not finished, that these MP's have hired a lawyer, and that they are claiming they were encouraged to pull this shit.

Now, that could make things worse not better. In a way, it makes me happier, but it is far worse for the military.

Have you read any Dershowitz? He makes the case that torture is justified if it extracts information necessary to prevent an atrocity. And frankly, I would much rather have a broom shoved up my ass than have my eyeballs put out by Saddam's henchmen. That is torture. It is real easy to get on a moral high horse about this.

It is a huge PR disaster, I will grant you that.

Thom (#96)

Thanks.

(Alot of this discussion seems to be theoretical since the whole thing is still unfolding and it's not known exactly what happened.)

True, but those photographs are pretty clear.

#93 Globby

I'd need a helluvalot more info then that to form a judgment.

Besides, MPs probably shouldn't be in the business of exploiting internees for strategic intelligence in the first place. I don't think they're trained for that. And if the rollicking scenes in the photos are any indication, this group was definitely not trained for it.

From the report:

The recommendations of MG Miller’s team that the “guard force” be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees would appear to be in conflict with the recommendations of MG Ryder’s Team and AR 190-
8 that military police “do not participate in military intelligence supervised interrogation sessions.”

How did these pictures get out?

Does anybody know by what process?

I was a little suprised that your argument against the word "torture" was to say that Saddam did a lot worse. Which is, if you really think about it, an extremely pernicious sort of moral relativism. Because you invite a perverse line-drawing game where you have to say, in effect, "here's were abuse ends and torture begins".

Rather, I was expecting an argument that went along these lines:

Its not torture because there was no purpose to it other than cruelty.

See, to me torture implies that the torturer is trying to extract information or a confession of some sort. As far as we know, these guards were just being cruel for the fun of it.

Charles has the hysterical press element of his critique right.

Jekha is, as usual, spot on with what our attitude ought to be. This is outrageous and unacceptable, and I want each and every one of those sick low-lives in a military prison for a long time.

The President spoke very clearly about this. This is abuse, it is unacceptable, it will be transparently investigated, tried and punished.

At no time is the abuse of prisoners acceptable. This is not a field expedient, this is an actual prison. That is, when these men and women were abused, there was no urgent information to be extracted from them.

The Commissar cites the relevant regulation from the Geneva Convention over at the Politburo Diktat.

And yes, rape is torture. Let's not go into what I want to do to any American guard who raped a prisoner, because it wouldn't help the discussion.

#100 Nannette:

I agree with everything in your post except the first sentence. There are rules. That's the point. In fact, there are rules on both sides. The question is, who's rules will win? These soldiers abandoned our rules and that is part of the reason why what they did is so terrible.

Puhleeze.

This is a chance for the El Cubo Brigade to get all excited over a chance to really sock it to Bushitler.

And John Kerry speaks up about Rumsfeld resigning? Is this just before he agrees Rumsfeld should stay on? That man has the moral clarity of a rock.

What happened in Iraq in American-run will be investigated and the people involved will be punished.

What happened in Iraq under Saddam is, of course, completely excused.

What happens in Israel daily is excused.

What happens in Sudan and Nigeria is overlooked.

But OH MY FRICKING GOSH, some Arab men were humilated by being made to feel like women. THAT, my friends, IS A WAR CRIME.

I'll wait for the courts to decide about the Americans.

But I'll wait in vain for an El Cubo to complain about the daily terrorism - yeah, REAL terrorism - that occurs in lands on the bloody edge of the land of Mahomet.

#68 Thom™

Well put.

And what *is* it with the preocupation with sex in the accounts of abuse? Either these troops were following some sort of military intelligence instructions (and no, "just following orders" isn't a particularly good defense) or we've got some seriously messed up people serving as MPs. Or both.

What makes me angry about the public reaction to the story is the obvious hypocrisy involved. Yeah, this sounds like torture to me, but for a bunch of Arab governments to call the US to account for torture is outrageous. We owe it to ourselves to get this sorted out, to prosecute the offenders and make sure that the cancer of insitutionalized cancer doesn't spread in the US, but it's something we owe ourselves, not the rest of the world, and certainly not the part of the world where worse things happen as a matter of SOP.

#104 zulubaby

True, but those photographs are pretty clear.

Yeah. (Speaking of torture, what I wouldn't give for the opportunity to shove that camera up the photographer's ass ...)

#98 stakker

Thanks for the link.

From the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights:

For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Its not torture because there was no purpose to it other than cruelty

It's absolutly wrong ; torture can be used to save civilian lives (in case of bombing), but it's still torture. There is 2 degrees of tortures : when the consequences are unreversible and when they are.
Rape is unreversible in the mind, but it's still not physical destructions.

#100 Nanette:

Thank you.

I think the islamonazis were taken aback by the level of support and sympathy that the world showed on 9.12.01.

They need to change that, by allah.

#13

I'm know I'm late, but I had to add to #13's list 'cause I got quite a chuckle out of it:):

Don't forget any movie on Lifetime channel you're forced to endure with the significant other...torture indeed!

I don't see why torture - real torture, I mean - would be such an issue. Indeed, most people here still don't want to face up to reality - the reality of this war.

There are moments when torture, collective punishment and even mass-executions may be necessary. Especially when our survival as a civilization depends on it. Sometimes we have to choose the lesser evil.

Of course we will do this without enthousiasm or sadism. That's what sets us apart from the barbarians.

I KNOW this might offend a lot of people.

Not meant as a troll. Just be prepared to think about it.

#117 Rust Never Sleeps

Oh. My. God.

We are, indeed, in a war for survival. But to do what you're suggesting might be necessary is to kill our civilization our own selves.

Forgive me, I'm absolutely convinced that we must win, but if we do it your way, then we have forfeited our right to survival.

We'll win. Of that I am sure. Not your way, though.

Charles, your first op-ed piece-- is this a new trend? I really like it. You have rarely been so generous with your opinions before...

I am waiting to see what you are going to play, so I can emulate, and then read through this thread. Maestro?

There are moments when torture, collective punishment and even mass-executions may be necessary. Especially when our survival as a civilization depends on it. Sometimes we have to choose the lesser evil.

In our case, humiliation was not useful, it was stupid and wicked.

There is almost no case where mass-executions are good. The only case I see, is in the gaza strip when the hamas are on strike. Else to much innocents would die ans it would serve no design.

#109 Jheka

I agree with everything in your post except the first sentence. There are rules. That's the point. In fact, there are rules on both sides. The question is, who's rules will win? These soldiers abandoned our rules and that is part of the reason why what they did is so terrible.

What rules did the guerillas (terrorists) in Fallujah follow when they murdered, burnt and desecrated the bodies the 4 US civilians???

It looks as if the photos published in the UK could well turn out to be fakes and probably not even taken in Iraq.

As yet there's been no inquiry in America which authenticates the said photos... of which some look quite suspect, but anyone with a little skill could work wonders with Photoshop or other graphics programmes.

It could well be possible that the accused may well be innocent, but they've already ben condemned, because the media were so quick to publish and televise photos, which have done untold damage to the coalition and the war on terror.

Yeah. (Speaking of torture, what I wouldn't give for the opportunity to shove that camera up the photographer's ass ...)

I second that. This is the real issue.

#122 Nannette

As yet there's been no inquiry in America which authenticates the said photos...

Actually, the origianl photos were turned in by another soldier who was disgusted with what was going on. This was some four months ago.

No links, sorry.

Dianna is absolutly right.

We dont deserve to win if we lose our values for winning. But we must win to have our values to survive.

108:

That is, when these men and women were abused, there was no urgent information to be extracted from them.

Women? WOMEN?

Do you really think that women are held in prisons in Iraq?

Women jihadists?

I need some substantiation of the fact that women are imprisoned for fighting the Coalition in Iraq. I will go chuckle for a bit while I fix dinner.

Rust Never Sleeps

Of course we will do this without enthousiasm or sadism. That's what sets us apart from the barbarians.

It appears from the photos that the abuse was done with enthusiasm. I interpret some sadistic enjoyment in their faces.

and

Thom

Yeah. (Speaking of torture, what I wouldn't give for the opportunity to shove that camera up the photographer's ass ...)

The soldiers were posing for the photos. It is not as if a spy was secretly taking them.

Which leads me back to my question. How did these photos get released?

#122 Nannette

As yet there's been no inquiry in America which authenticates the said photos... of which some look quite suspect, but anyone with a little skill could work wonders with Photoshop or other graphics programmes.

The Army has been investigating this for some time now.

It really happened.

The photos are just a visual aid the media is using to whip up anti-war sentiment.

The photos per se are not the issue.

From the report (sheesh! it's only 53 pages - read it!):

We reviewed numerous photos and videos of actual detainee abuse taken by detention facility personnel, which are now in the custody and control of the US Army Criminal Investigation Command and the CJTF-7 prosecution team.

#126 Ann

Yes, women are held in Iraqi prisons under Coalition guard.

We have to remember that our troops are fighting a guerilla war, where there are no set rules.

Excellent post, Nannette. We should all remember that our adversaries do not adhere to the Geneva Conventions. As a result, we are technically absolved of doing so as well.

Everyone agrees that cruelty for its own sake is bad. It is not clear that the MP's are guilty of this. They may have thought they were doing the system a favor by what they thought was hazing.

zenbone, see #124.

#115 Ann

! think the islamonazis were taken aback by the level of support and sympathy that the world showed on 9.12.01.

The photos that have been shown in the media may well be fake, the ones of the UK troops for sure are, without a doubt.

It's more than possible that the prison photos of the US troops could be faked...

If there's a case of any of the published photos being found fake, then the rest must also be regarded as suspicious.

Besides money, there was obviously an ulterior motive - and that was to de-stabilise the coalitition and cause Arab outrage (they never forget any perceived wrongs).

There are groups of people all over the world working to destroy and remove our democracies and freedoms. These people are our enemies and they have to be exposed for what they are and stopped in their tracks.

It's time for the silent majority who truly value their personal freedoms and way of life to fight back...

I think it's entirely possible to hold and interrogate prisoners without these actions.

However, again, the focus on these actions points out that they are generally exceptional and abhorrent in our culture. Not an excuse - but we are appalled as a culture.

When the four contractors were torn up and pasted onto the bridge at Fallujah, the Arab/Mohammedan world - rejoiced.

Shows the difference between civilization and savagery.

#130 Globby

We should all remember that our adversaries do not adhere to the Geneva Conventions. As a result, we are technically absolved of doing so as well.

Actually, no. Even when a belligerant is not a party to the Geneva conventions, there are some minimum rules that must be adhered to. Against a party to the Geneva conventions, violations of the conventions by one party do not change in any way the obligations of the other partis.

#126 Ann

From the report:

Currently, due to lack of adequate Iraqi facilities, Iraqi criminals (generally Iraqi-on-Iraqi crimes) are detained with security internees (generally Iraqi-on-Coalition offenses) and EPWs in the same facilities, though segregated in different cells/compounds.

I have no idea if the women were jihadists or not.

b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;
...
k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

#127 zenbone

I had in mind the stupidity of photographing this in the first place.

zulubaby,

Thanks.

BTW, you got caught up with Julianne after you said we should ignore her.

Not that I blame you. Julianne, Gordon, the Preacher and Jewish Moslem, it is tough not wanting to go after them.

I think that it is Julianne's smug tone that is so effective. I think this is an experience BBS/blog wrangler.

zenbone, it was actually Gordon that got me involved but you're right, I did pay attention to the stupid troll.

This whole issue is making me ill. It's such a stupid, minor problem. So a few prisoners of war may have been mistreated -- boo frickin' hoo. Fix the damn problem by reprimanding and/or prosecuting where necessary and get on with things. This issue is being blown so out of proportion that it is obscuring the fact that we're in the middle of a war. If it is necessary to obtain info about the enemy from captured soldiers, then by all means, use whatever psychological "torture" is necessary to get it. I suppose they shouldn't kill the prisoners or permanently injure them, but other than that, if there is reason to believe that they have important information, then do whatever it takes to get it.

#124 RIP Ford and #128 Thom™

It's still possible that the photos may not be authentic.

The photos of UK squaddies have virtually been proven to be faked.

Apparently ALL armed forces personnel are searched before going on leave and it's just amazing how these pictures managed to "escape" with them.

Whatever the story is, there are still malevalent forces out there who have discredited the coalition, reduced morale amongst the men, who now wonder what they're fighting for - and what the penalities will be for killing or manhandling the enemy.

It's a bloody war for God's sake!

And our boys are fighting an enemy who has no rules, nor has any respect for the Geneva convention, unless his own arse is on the line!

Actually, no. Even when a belligerant is not a party to the Geneva conventions, there are some minimum rules that must be adhered to. Against a party to the Geneva conventions, violations of the conventions by one party do not change in any way the obligations of the other partis.

We had this discussion with Colt and I believe Engineer on another thread. Consensus seems to be that you are not correct.

I'll try to find it.

#135  Thom™

It reminds me Canada's Somali horror.

Now that was real torture. But the photography and the soldiers gleeful posing is strikingly similar.

There is something about the photography thing that get's me and I am not quite sure what it is.

#129:

Thanks! Supporting documentation is one of the aspects that distinguish LGF from other blogs.

However, I am concerned that we have assumed that all prisoners, including the women, have been subject to "torture", too?

Again, "what are they in for"?

Ok dingbat. You have a choice: face treatment under Saddam's regime or face doing weird things naked with a bunch of other smelly guys under US guard.

So if US soldiers rescuing Holocaust survivors raped and sexually degraded/abused and beat them up in the process, you'd have no problem with it I assume. Better than a concentration camp, so..

So if US soldiers rescuing Holocaust survivors raped and sexually degraded/abused and beat them up in the process, you'd have no problem with it I assume. Better than a concentration camp, so..

Poor analogy. Here's the correct one:

I'd rather be sexually degraded than be in a concentration camp.

Yes I agree to the corrected analogy.

What is the internationally-accepted definition of torture? Is this covered in the Geneva Conventions?

here’s Amnesty’s take on “torture”:

Because Amnesty International works primarily to combat human rights abuses by states and armed opposition groups, we usually use the term "torture" to refer to the deliberate infliction of severe pain or suffering by state agents, or similar acts by private individuals for which the state bears responsibility through consent, acquiescence or inaction. We also use the term "torture" to refer to deliberate pain or suffering inflicted by members of armed political groups.

here’s a link to some info on the UN’s standing committee against torture.

Instead of watching me prattle on… anyone here have a real background in this kind of thing? What are the limits to acceptable behaviour? Do nekkid doggie piles count as “severe”? How about sodomy with a broom handle? At what points does “teasing” become “abuse” become “torture”?

#140 Globby

Consensus be damned. Check the text: 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Geneva conventions.

Article 1
The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.

Is that clear enough?

why is it poor? here we have Iraqis being under an occupying power who supposedly came to 'liberate' them, and you're saying they should be grateful as long as their treatment is better than under Saddam. So you must think raping holocaust survivors would be ok, as long as it saved from the concentration camp.

#110 steve

funny enough, it actually is a war crime

to re-pst from the Commissar (a commie-version of Allah, for you who are irony impaired):

But I looked up the Geneva Convention:

"Prohibited: (c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment."

There's no room for Clinton-esque evasion here, comrades. "Torture" is a different violation, listed in para (a). So not only are bamboo shoots under the fingernails a violation, but so are naked pig-piles with soldiers pointing at them. It's fine to approach this story with something less than terminal dread, but let's not kid ourselves when we try to view it with some perspective or humor.

Torture, maybe, maybe not (I think some was, some wasn't) but in fact a WAR CRIME!!! (cue spooky music)

careful what you joke about, it might catch on with the LLL

#145 Preacher Bob

The 'limits' are flexible. When Israel prevents a Jihadi from blowing up a school bus full of Jewish kids, that's 'severe mental suffering', i.e. torture. When Saddam puts an American POW feet first in the shredder, why, that's no big deal...

Preacher Bob

Don't make me ill by trying to link to the UN and Amnesty. Amnesty was so hot to accuse Israel of war crimes in Jenin (because of the bodies that were not there!!!) and the UN has Sudan as part of its Human Rights group or whatever.

I have little respect for what either of these organizations have to say anymore.

#141 zenbone

Some sort of "souvenir" is my guess.

#140 Globby

Did we ratify the convention? If we did, then guess what?

#130 Globby

We should all remember that our adversaries do not adhere to the Geneva Conventions. As a result, we are technically absolved of doing so as well.

I'd have thought that was the case too.

We're all entitled to defend ourselves, and if the enemy have no rules, we have to learn to fight like they do, but we're not disguised as women or civilians and don't hide behind women and children!

It's time the yellow bellied enemy wore uniform and fought a proper war, playing by the rules.

I personally think that anyone who doesn't adhere to the 4th Geneva Convention, shouldn't, when captured, be treated according to this convention, or any other.

By doing this, maybe they'll learn to respect us.

#153 Nannette

Defending ourselves is one thing, the way we treat detainees is another.

Once again (gulp) I sort of agree with Gordon. Most of this is pretty mild, but electric shock or the threat of, is a form of torture.

Forcing one prisoner to masturbate (at least thats an allegation I've seen) on another inmates face isn't exactly torture, but it is abusive and criminal.

Of course, Chalres point, that this is orders of magnitude less severe than what Saddam did, must be considered, and people like Ted Rall, who consider Bush=Hitler and the Army=SS are f*cked in the head.

BTW, if Bush=Hitler and Ashcroft=Himmler, how come Rall and Garofalo et al aren't in camps already?

#151 Zenbone

The reason I linked to the UN and Amnesty, two bodies that I don’t expect get much support in this forum, is that even under their definitions, I don’t see how this is torture. But what do I know?

And I apologize to all for screwing up the links in my original post. Time for some well-deserved self-abuse.

#153 Nannette

Adhering to the letter of the Geneva conventions in all cases is good for soldiers' morale and discipline, i.e. required for efficiency. Armies that routinely break them are about as good as Saddam's Guards - unable to find their own dick in a bordello, let alone use it properly. Definitely NOT what you want the US Army to become.

Bob - you go out and have a conversation with Gordon. That's punishment enough - you'll need a chiropractor to fix your neck after your head stops its twirling.

Hate to run, but I gotta shove off now. G'night all!

Moral equivalency at its worst on the Iowahawk thread

Israelis Weep as Civilians Are Shot With Paintball Guns

Israelis weeped in the streets and attended memorial services across the nation today to mourn the victims of the latest Palestinian paintball attack.

A family of four living in a Gaza settlement was ambushed as they drove to Shabat services by masked Palestinians who proceeded to pepper the automobile with rounds upon rounds of paintballs. Three children in the back seat sustained injuries as the paintballs brutally bruised their necks when they entered the open window.

...

Hoo hahahahah! Isn't that a riot! It's so funny to joke about the brutal suffering of others. You make me sick.

I think that the big story is that Bush made no bones about what he thought about it and this is a society where we have the liberty to criticize the actions of the soldiers.

It is obviously not right.

That said, I agree with the Dershowitz argument that torture may be a necessary evil if it saves lives. I would have no problem finding out that a few people were tortured to extract information that saved thousands of people from being blown up by terrorists.

But I don't think these necessary forms of "information extraction" would ever be photographed this way.

The photos themselves become a form of torture and humiliation. It is so insanely stupid.

#154 andrew

Defending ourselves is one thing, the way we treat detainees is another.

It would be so nice if ALL the countries thought like that.

However, where's the media frenzy for all the poor westerners stuck in Arab jails on trumped up charges, who are subject to some brutal forms of torture?

and I reiterate post #58

Do we expect our troops to sit these possible terrorists down with a cup of tea and sandwiches in an effort to extract information from them?

#157 Mr Pol

Do you truly expect the allied troops to fight a guerilla war by the book?

Mr. Pol

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Nanette,

I can't see any useful purpose for these actions in the prisons from any practical point of view.

First of all the US is not fighting a guerilla war. A guerilla war is being fought against them. The US is IMO not being tough enough in that regard (same as Israel).

But I don't see how the mistreatment of detainees advances the Allied effort in Iraq. Unless they are extracting useful information and I don't think that is the case here.

Hmmm, I read the whole thing, and I passionately agree with Charles. We have to accept that we operate in a Hobbesian universe (nature, red in tooth and claw) and Abu Ghraibs will happen. But we really have to remember who the good guys are here. The Rule of Law is already operating on the culprits.
In Big Media, we already see equivalencing, My Lai, no different than Saddam, etc. But we are different. And we should know it.

This is the week when the illusion of American power has gone down the toilet. First Fallujah where the American army retreated. I guess we won't hear of invading Iran or Syria anymore... The U.S. isn't even capable to defeating a bunch of rag tag terrorists from a 3rd world country. And then Abu Gh. where Americans perpertrated disgusting, barbarous acts worthy of the uncivilized, immoral brutes they have revealed themselves to be. Well the good news is that after the WMD lies and the latest outrage the U.S. has zero credibility around the world. The United States, and its bufoonish president, are a joke. No one takes them seriously. But the better news is that the U.S. has no real power either. Bush can huff and puff all he wants -the emperor has no clothes. Bye Bye! We hardly knew ye! You're Fired.

Regarding some of the comments on interrogation:

Based on what I have read from military intelligence types, the pictures and the actions are completely inconsistent with those of trained interrogators. (Watches are never worn by interrogators, for example, to keep prisoners from knowing the time of day.) Interrogators who know what they are doing generally use subtle psychology to get prisoners to open up, like smoking in front of prisoner who smokes, but not giving him a cigarette until later, when it is then offered as a reward.

Broomsticks, acid and the like are more the stuff used by sadistic Maryland prison guards when the cons turn violent and they want to teach them something.

It seems to me there are three key types of actors here, and it's important to separate them: (1) reservists who are normally prison guards stateside; (2) garden-variety MPs who may or may not know much about handling prisoners; and (3) military intelligence officers who specialize in interrogation. From all I have read, the alleged abuses were committed primarily by (1), with perhaps some help from (2).

The following comment is left in place as an example of what would normally be deleted. --ed.

Mike Moore has the balls to tell it like it is. The rest of you are zionist n*****-loving jew bastards!

Kill Kountless Kikes!

I'd consider the threat of torture to be criminal abuse. IE, holding a loaded gun to a persons head may not be murder, but it is wrong. Exceptions can be made, such as the Army colonel who threatened a jihadi with a gun to prevent an attack on his troops.

I don't know the Webster's definition, but I'm pretty sure non-consensual sex is painful, and it fits my definition of torture. I don't know who it is that thinks its only torture if it is done to gain information, but the intentional application of physical pain is torture, IMHO.

And the photos I saw, it looked like the female soldiers were having a good time. I don't know how that would be necessary for an effective interrogation.

But absolutely, this is being blown out of proportion, as the US military was already in the process of punishing those responsible long ago.

Another reason to obey the standards of civilized behavior: although it is unlikely the jihadis would ever treat any American captives anywhere near as well as the most abused of Iraqi prisoners, we lose any hope of moral suasion when it comes to requesting proper treatment of our PWs.

#167 ILoveAmericaAndHamburgers

When people underestimate us, they learn to regret it.

I've read comments claiming that the rape rooms were never found, ergo it's a lie aka WMD and whatnot.

This doesn't sound like torture to you?

e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;

...

m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.

No.

g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

This one is too wierd for me to unconditionally accept (or reject) as torture.

3. mental anguish 4. a cause of such pain or anguish.

Ted Rall's columns are torture.

John Kerry's campaign is torture.

My anger is with people who decry looking at the world in black and white viewing taking pictures of "human pyramids" as being no different than tearing off the ear of a dissident, and therefore we're as bad as they are. People who decry a "simplistic view of the world" who see no difference between throwing acid at a woman & forcing a man to wear woman's panties.

#169 8 E 8

Kiss your mother with that mouth? Head back to your trailer moron.

Charles,
Clean up on aisle 169

#167

You love hamburgers? That is too cool!!!

#165 zenbone

What, in your opinion, is the correct way of extracting information from any prisoner?

#174 zenbone

LOL

Man, looks like the trolls found a back door into our little party.

169

Usually idiots like that are deleted before I get to read their spew.

Michael Moore is a loser of the first order, hates America, and probably would prefer Stalin as president to GWB.

Strange world when the LLL are loved by the Klansters.

#169 8 E 8

How can you be a fascist AND love Michael Moore at the same time???

The surgeons obviously got some of your wires crossed when they did the frontal lobe double lobotomy.

Mmm, did someone mention hamburgers?

I will gladly pay you Tuesday
for a hamburger today...

Bartender, and a Corona please!

Happy Cinco de Mayo, eveyone!

Of course, Fresh Air, I'm inclined to agree with you. These MP's are almost certainly 1 and 2.

I posted something very similar on a previous thread. There would be no pictures if this was really commanded from higher up.

Should it be punished? Yes. Is it torture? Not anymore than listening to Linda Gradstein or Ted Koppel, or anymore than the typical experience of rushing a frat.

I think we all agree that torture is justified if the prisoner may know something about a serious attack.

Geneva convention-wise, if the opponent decides to use chemical weapons you can be damn sure the other would be justified in using them as well. If that is still a violation, there are provisions for protesting the Geneva conventions after the conflict is over.

#169

WOW

Tell us how you REALLY feel, huh?

Usually I miss all those kinds of posts. Inarticulate, racist (really), and profoundly stupid.

What a prize you are for some lucky first cousin (when you actually reach age 15, that is).

#169

Michael Moore may have orchitis but that is about it.

#126 Nanette

Yes, women are held by coalition forces in Iraqi jails/prisons

Yes, I'm a Jew and Jesus was Jewish... so you're obviously Islamist...

Do you prefer goats or sheep?

My previous comment at #184 was for #126 Ann (not Nanette - apologies.)

I guess Charles is grabbing dinner?

So, asswipe, you think Osama et ux would be nice to the Klan? You guys would be killed along with the rest of us infidels, f*ckwad.

But you inbred Hitler worshipping types are a little too stupid to see that.

BTW, Hitler is still dead.

If you really wanted to emulate "88", you should put a pistol in your mouth and blow the back of your head off.

#181 8 E 8

Would you perhaps be, Micheal Moore? You have similar writing styles, maturity levels and distinct lack of ability to form a cognizant thought.

#175  Nannette

I think post #168 is well put.

The correct way to extract information is to first ask very politely. Then when that doesn't work you start ramping it up.

I am not squeamish. I just think that what happened was stupid and useless that is all. And I don't think it would have been photographed if it was professionally done.

Folks:

GAZE at the trolls. Don't waste Charles' bandwith on them.

I think post 169 should stand. It shows what kind of people follow Michael Moore.

#191 Globby

Good point.

Jheka

I agree. Perhaps it's time for "Mr. Holland's Opus". Paging Steve Miller!

Just what does GAZE mean?

#194 Ben-ami

Check out the LGF FAQ, and all will be answered.

Ben-ami

Just look at it. Don't feed it, don't approach it, don't pet it.

U.S. Troops Said to Mistreat Elder Iraqi

Wed May 5, 4:39 PM ET
By SUE LEEMAN, Associated Press Writer

LONDON - U.S. soldiers who detained an elderly Iraqi woman last year placed a harness on her, made her crawl on all fours and rode her like a donkey, Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites)'s personal human rights envoy to Iraq (news - web sites) said Wednesday.

The envoy, legislator Ann Clwyd, said she had investigated the claims of the woman in her 70s and believed they were true.

During five visits to Iraq in the last 18 months, Clwyd said, she stopped at British and U.S. jails, including Abu Ghraib, and questioned everyone she could about the woman's claims. But she did not say whether the people questioned included U.S. forces or commanders.

More here:
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

#184 Mary

Look up Ann Clwyd's history. She's anti-American, left wing and pro-Palestinian:

[Link: www.palestinecampaign.org...]

In the link you gave Clwyd she said she heard the story from the old womans relatives here in the UK... which isn't exactly proof!

Read the story and then find out exactly how brittle an old 70 year old womans bones are!

#197

And your point is?

Yes there are abuses in war.

Are you somehow trying to say that Saddam = Bush. Or what is the purpose of your post?

Preacher Bob

Asked for details, Clwyd said during a telephone interview with The Associated Press that she "didn't want to harp on the case because as far as I'm concerned it's been resolved."

You conveniently left that out.

#189 zenbone

I agree... although any photos taken should be sent immediately to the commanding officers and not sold to the media for $750,000

#197 Preacher Bob:

Because of the asshats discussed in this thread, relatively minor asshattery such as that described in the story you link to (which got a giant headline from Drudge), will be front page news for the foreseeable future. Hell, at this point, allegations will suffice.

That is not to say that, if true, what was done to that woman wasn't dispicable. Just that it was a relatively minor crime in a region full of really big crimes that go generally ignored and now, because of these idiots, every transgression or hint of a crime will be discussed on BBC, CNN, et al. and the world's front pages before it ever sees the inside of a courtroom.

The idiots have given our enemoes a powerful weapon.

In any event, it looks like Bush kept it short and simple, saying the right stuff.

Good job.

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Will it make a difference for those who so desperately need to hate America? Probably not.

I do feel bad for Rumsfeld. How is this guy supposed to know about every friggin detail on the ground. He has to keep his mind on major operations, not on how some prisoner is being handled by a couple MP's.

I do not condone what happened in this prison, but I am apalled at the sheer hypocrisy of the way in which it has been treated.

Firstly, the seething anger in the arab street. At what? At something that occurrs in any prison in any arab country anywhere you care to name in the Middle East every day of every year? Not quite, because what the Yanks did was nowhere near as bad as what arabs do to arabs every day.

Second, the idea that this was particularly humiliating to muslim men. Hahaha!! Like muslim men aren't busy humiliating anyone they don't like as part of their death cult culture / pseudo religion. Ask women in Afghanistan about humiliation by muslim men. Look at the humiliating words muslim 'clerics' (LOL!! More like donkey brained morons than any real cleric) spout every day about Jews, Americans the west, etc. It's like this, Ahmed, you dish it out, then you get dished out to you in return.

It's about time we told the arab street to go get f***d until it catches up with civilised standards. They don't mind operating death squads out of mosques, but they want mosques to be quarantined as sacred places. They serially rape, torture and kill their own, but they don't tolerate the same behaviour in others. They kill innocent people everywhere and blame everyone else but themsleves. They hate the west for being sophisitcated and rich because they can't even grow enough food to feed themselves and their entrepreneurial skills stop at blowing things up when they feel like it.

Arab street? More like sub-human toilet. Ignore them, let them seeth themselves even more stupid than they already are. When they misbehave, lob some ordinance on them until they get the point. Otherwise, leave them to starve themselves to death until they decide that their death cult pseudo religion and culture are garbage items.

#197 Preacher Bob

Look up Ann Clwyd's history. She's anti-American, left wing and pro-Palestinian:

[Link: www.palestine...]

In the story you gave Clwyd she said she heard the story from the old womans relatives here in the UK... which isn't exactly proof!

Read the story and then try to find some credibility in it by taking into account the brittleness of 70 year old bones, then ask any doctor what a 140lb man riding on her back would do for her spine.

You believe the story?

If so, you're a mug!

Enemies, that is.

Wait for the rest of the story to come out before attempting to minimalize the abuse/torture. There's an investigation of nine (?) deaths that may have resulted from--what, being forced to jack off?

I heard some talking head on the TV last night saying that these children (the guards) were from rural America and didn't know any better. How ridiculously insulting!

Regarding the story about the old lady "ridden" by her captor... that story was told by Ann Clwyd who has no actual proof of this happening.

Just like she had no proof of the massacre at Jenin which she set out to "prove" happened...

Oops. I didn't realize that Mary had beaten me to posting that story. Ignore #197. See #184.

#199 Zenbone
You're adorable, man. Always getting your hackles up. No, I'm not trying to say Saddam = Bush. They're very different people. I just think it's amazing how this AP article reminds me of a movie I once saw. Breathe in... breathe out.

#205 Nannette
I don't know if it happened or not. How could I? What's a mug?

#286 Jheka

Enemoes has a certain ring to it... a mixture of enemies and schmoes... :-)

Nice one!

#209 Preacher Bob

A mug is someone who falls for pretty obvious propaganda... and Ann Clwyd is a known propagandist here in the UK... mainly for Palestinian causes.

#209

Right. you posted that because it reminded you of the movie Secretary. Uh huh.

cute how you notice that Saddam and Bush are "different people".

good night and sweet dreams to all you lovers of freedom and its obligations.

#119 Dianna 5

121 French Berserker

127 zenbone

I am not a proponent of mass-executions, collective punishment, or even torture. On the contrary.

However, even during normal live, people come across moral dilemmas. Practical situations aren't always so clear cut, and moral principles often run against each other.

Case-based reasoning is the key-word, not dogmatism. I have to admit, there's an inherent danger to become self-serving, a large amount of knowledge and WISDOM is needed.

I don't think we have arrived at the moment were mass-executions are necessary. Strangely enough, French Berzerker, you are the one who is proposing one certain case. I am not even sure that I would agree with you on that one.

Torturte as to be studied case by case. The humiliations in Abu Ghraib seemed rather like a few people who were living out their perverted sex-fantasies. I don't think it served any purpose. However, if you could prevent a new 9/11 (or even a new 3/11) by torturing someone, wouldn't you agree that . . .

Collective punishment runs against all principles of justice. However, take Fallujah. One of my drinking partners is a Kurd - no, obviously not a fanatical muslim - who knows a great deal about Iraq. During the nineties, the local population came under the influence of Salafi or Sunni fundamentalist movements and ideas that were also growing popular in Jordan. The weakened 'secular' Baathist state allowed these groups to establish beachheads in Fallujah, Ramadi and elsewhere. Too cut a long story short: most fighters/terrorists are home-grown. They are no feoreign fighters. They don't hide between the civilian population. They are rather armed civilians, who live in Fallujah and Ramadi among their families and friends who support them. It's impossible to separate the two. That's why the marines weren't allowed to go "all the way".

#211 Nanette
Thank you for the links and the information. I'm a San Diego boy, unfamiliar with Ann Clwyd. Not even sure how to pronounce her name. The story is over the top.

#212 Zenbone
cute how you notice that Saddam and Bush are "different people".

Cute how you asked it, buttmonkey.

Since Charles has graciously taken the time to share his opinion for this thread, I'd like to get back to the original point and define some terms.

We are basically talking about two things:

Mistreatment/Abuse

and

Torture

Abuse falls into three varieties: mild, moderate, and severe (and please don't start with the "hot, medium, or mild" or "rare, medium, or well done" barbs ;) )

Torture also falls into these three varieties as well.

The difference between abuse and torture is that torture is done with a higher *purpose*.

If you don't like some guy and you shove a plunger up his ass (i.e., Abner Louima) that is *abuse*, of the moderate variety. I only say moderate because the severe form is poking his eyeballs out, putting him in an iron maiden, giving him an enema of sulfuric acid (Nazi favorite), cutting his balls off, cutting his arms off (Saddam favorite) and so on.

Torture is the same thing except it is done to extract vital information. For example, 1000 lbs of Ammonium Nitrate are missing and you have a good inkling that the guy in front of you knows something about it. In that case, if you follow Dershowitz et al, abuse would be warrented to extract that information. In other words, torture.

Abuse is always unwarranted and should be punished according to the degree. Torture is sometimes justified.

In this case the abuse was mild for the most part (naked human pyramids) to moderate (broomstick up ass) and was not done, if you belive the army, to extract information.

All evidence points to the fact that this was abuse and not torture, and not abuse of the severe variety.

Charles,

I won't repeat my bona fides again. You know my attitudes.

"Torture or not" is the biggest red herring. And everyone from Fox News to Rumsfeld's questioners to Wonkette are jumping on it. Whether or not these acts were "torture" is irrelevant at this point.

Without any doubt, these acts DID violate the Geneva Convention ---

"Prohibited: (c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment."

That's plain English.

Another commenter excerpted my post:
[Link: acepilots.com...]

Please update or re-write your post. These were war crimes, whether they were 'torture' or not.

I'll offer a couple anticipatory rejoinders.

1) I know their ultimate, legal guilt will be determined by the military justice system. Sorry. OJ was guilty of murder. These guys/gals are guilty of war crimes.

2) In a high-profile case like this, the prosecutor will almost certainly throw the book at them, and 'torture,' as in para (a), will be charged. Maybe they will be found guilty of that, too.

But at this point, everyone who can see the photos and reads the Convention has to admit they are guilty of war crimes.

My thoughts..havent read everyone yet so if someone has said it...then me too and good.

Theres real Torture and then is "You Shouldnt Be Doing That rather silly STUFF..Its beneath Americans to do it". Making those guys march around with their schlong waving in the Wind is emtional abuse (for them especially..culture and all THAT) but its NOT Torture. Waaay far from that.

That pile of ??? ... guys...I still dont know what the heck they were doing. Maybe it is a left over Hazing kind of thing. Like someone said..Frat Boys.

PLUS: the Groveling at the feet of the Arab World today. by the Prez...Could we have LOST more Face? Could we BE more Dhimini. (listening to the end of Friends sorry for the Friends Lingo)? And no matter what the excuse is..the parsing is...are we going to CUT and RUN.?.and I say ..YEP..we are...And I say ..boy is that a mistake. A GIGANTIC Mistake.

"Prohibited: (c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment."

The fact is, any stay in prison is, by this standard, a violation of the Geneva Convention. Go spend a week in jail and tell me it isn't humiliating and degrading.

Personally, I find it degrading to listent to Ted Koppel after his last disingenuous little stunt.

#54 Stop Hillary . . .

You will learn of Clement Vallandingham. There are dozens today in Congress that are more loathsome and repugnant then he was. But, I won't say more, I don't want to spoil your reading.

Thanks for not giving away the end. I want to be surprised. ;)

#216 Globular Cluster

Excellent information. Thank you.

Because one just can't believe everyone one reads on the Internet... what's your source? Do you have a background in this?

PLUS: the Groveling at the feet of the Arab World today. by the Prez...Could we have LOST more Face? Could we BE more Dhimini. (listening to the end of Friends sorry for the Friends Lingo)? And no matter what the excuse is..the parsing is...are we going to CUT and RUN.?.and I say ..YEP..we are...And I say ..boy is that a mistake. A GIGANTIC Mistake.

Leah, I agree. It looks like Bush did a pretty good job but there is no reason for Bush to lower himself and bend over for the Arabs when they perform vastly more hideous deeds on an hourly basis.

Because one just can't believe everyone one reads on the Internet... what's your source? Do you have a background in this?

Nyet, Tovarish. This is my best attempt to define terms using my innate wit and cunning. Don't like 'em? Make your own.

Another thought..The US is going to have to find real proof yes or no... or how far did we go... cause the Arab World and their Agents and Supporters are taking this..and running with this BIG TIME. They are...like Mark Davis (Talk Show Host )Says..."Making stuff up". Totally making stuff up.

Theres just a whole buncha..fiction about this coming out of the Arab World. I know those people in the ME. Most of you do too..NOW.

Winning hearts and Minds??? Nonsense..these people,this culture, hate the west.

As to the "so called abuse". I don't know if our soldiers were requested by superiors to humiliate these prisoners inorder to soften them up for questioning...or if they did it just to retilate in a sick way in response for being shot at daily by the peace loving Muslims.

Choices like these are always very difficult and very painful. Indeed, we risk to lose our values while winning. But only if we win, will our values survive.

Tough one.

Let's return to mass-executions. The Allies killed deliberately killed hundreds of thousands (actually between one and two million) of German civilians during the Second World War. They were burned alive. Barbaric? Yes. Cruel? Of course. Unacceptable? Wait a minute . . .

In the beginning, the allies used heavy bombs in an attempt to obliterate the German (weapon) industry. But no precision weapons, no smart weapons, no success. Therefore, they changed to little firebombs. The neighboorhoods were were the people who worked in those factories were torched. Fire storms erupted. It was cruel, and it helped brake the back of Hitler's war machine.

Personally, I am glad we do have precision weapons now. While I think that is was acceptable to act like this in the Second World War, I would reject now.

PS: Remember that those bombings didn't take place to revenge the concentrations. The full extent of what was happening there wasn't know yet in 1943. Moreover, the Allied command rejected the proposition to bomb the railroads to Auschwitz later in the war. The could have saved many lives doing so.

#62 -- stakker "Those US Army guys you mention who assisted Reno are now Chief of Staff of the Army and Deputy Under Secretary of Defense (War Planning), Rumsfeld says they have outstanding records, I guess he wouldn't agree with your assessment. "

Perhaps he wouldn't and more is the pity. The use of armed forces in that matter was a violation of the posse comitatas act and is something every American, conservative or liberal should fear. My point in raising that matter was that basically, liberals are largely very selective in deciding which "atrocities" are worthy of their outrage. Any military officer engaged in that episode should have been cashiered then and I'd be all for it happening now.

Reno belongs in jail for murder.

Ann wrote that we:

need some substantiation of the fact that women are imprisoned for fighting the Coalition in Iraq.

I'm not as surprised by that as you are, Ann. After all, there have been more than a few female splodeydopes in Iraq, not to mention the Muslim women who defend female circumcision, honor killings, wearing burkas, etc. Frightening to see how fiercely people can cling to their chains.

This whole thing was wrong and stupid and does our cause a lot of damage. The thing I foresee happening is that any Iraqi who is peeved about us being there will come forward complaining of "torture" and "being humiliated" and it will be impossible to tell if they have a genuine grievance (and I doubt the media and Amnesty International will try very hard) or whether their "humiliation" consists of having been patted down by a female soldier. Rape and (most) beatings leave obvious physicial marks, but how can you know a guy who says "The Americans made me put on ladies' underwear" is telling the truth unless you actually have a picture or witnessed it?

American "mistreatment" of Iraqis will become the Leftist media cliche, just like the awful treatment of Palis, who are sooo humiliated by having to go through checkpoints.

crept back in just for a sec. honest.

preacher called me a buttmonkey. another feather in my cap!

Now i can watch another episode from my homicide dvd and eat a caesar salad with my lovely wife - all with the pride of knowing that I have exposed preacher as the empty vessel that he is.

Re: 229: That should be "female splodeydopes in Israel."

I will preview before posting.
I will preview before posting.
I will preview before posting.

Look up Ann Clwyd's history. She's anti-American, left wing and pro-Palestinian:

But funnily enough, she was also largely responsible for propagating the plastic-shredder meme -- and in fact wrote a pro-war editorial for the British press saying more or less "How can you oppose invading Iraq when people are being shredded?"

A heartfelt thank you Charles for saying it the way it is.

Just like everything else these days, it's all political. whatever obfuscation that the media can make to score political points they will.

The idea that rumsfeld should resign over what is bascially a fraternity prank just shows how irresponsible the media and the liberals have become. Completely unserious and not worthy of political office of any sort.

Clearly, there were elements of torture involved according to the findings of the Article 15-6 investigation. The entire document can be found here:

[Link: www.globalsecurity.org...]

Here are two important quotes from that material, and I've added emphasis in a couple of places I wanted to highlight:

5. (S) That between October and December 2003, at the Abu
Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of
sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were
inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and
illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated
by several members of the military police guard force
(372nd Military Police Company, 320th Military Police
Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of
the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF). The allegations of abuse
were substantiated by detailed witness statements (ANNEX
26) and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic
evidence. Due to the extremely sensitive nature of these
photographs and videos, the ongoing CID investigation,
and the potential for the criminal prosecution of several
suspects, the photographic evidence is not included in
the body of my investigation. The pictures and videos
are available from the Criminal Investigative Command and
the CTJF-7 prosecution team. In addition to the
aforementioned crimes, there were also abuses committed
by members of the 325th MI Battalion, 205th MI Brigade,
and Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC).
Specifically, on 24 November 2003, SPC Luciana Spencer,
205th MI Brigade, sought to degrade a detainee by having
him strip and returned to cell naked. (ANNEXES 26 and
53)

6. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by
military police personnel included the following acts:

a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees;
jumping on their naked feet;
b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and
female detainees;
c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various
sexually explicit positions for photographing;
d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and
keeping them naked for several days at a time;
e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's
underwear;
f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate
themselves while being photographed and videotaped;
g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and
then jumping on them;
h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box,
with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his
fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;
i. (S) Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a
detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old
fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;
j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked
detainee's neck and having a female Soldier pose for a
picture;
k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female
detainee;
l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles)
to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least
one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;
m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.
(ANNEXES 25 and 26)

8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the
following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I
find credible based on the clarity of their statements
and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses
(ANNEX 26):

a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the
phosphoric liquid on detainees;
b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;
c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a
chair;
e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;
f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the
wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed
against the wall in his cell;
g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and
perhaps a broom stick.
h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and
intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one
instance actually biting a detainee.

It should also be noted that supposedly there are at least 10 investigations underway involving possible murder of detainees, and at least 10 more investigations of violations of the Geneva Convention accords or UCMJ involving other detainees.

This doesn't change my opinion of what we need to do in Iraq, it just pisses me off. Nobody should be so morally weak as to believe that they can do any of these things just because they are in a position of power. I don't care what kind of stressful situation it is, there are things that should immediately raise a red flag to any decent and honorable person right from the start, but apparently those who committed these acts lacked that ability to understand the difference between right and wrong.

I would be more inclined to call the perpetrators sociopaths rather than those who were corrupted by circumstance.

#169...pinko queer?

It is нет, товрищ.

Ti dolzhen buit tixi. Ya ne mogu pisatz po-russkom polzuyoos angliskimi bukvami!

:P

/college Russian. looong time ago.

#233 Throbert McGee
But funnily enough, she was also largely responsible for propagating the plastic-shredder meme...

You mean this? Not bad for an anti-American, left wing, pro Palestinian!:

See Men Shredded, Then Say You Don't Back War
Ann Clwyd
March 18, 2003

“There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son] personally supervise these murders.” More here

#230 Zenbone
preacher called me a buttmonkey. another feather in my cap! Now i can watch another episode from my homicide dvd and eat a caesar salad with my lovely wife - all with the pride of knowing that I have exposed preacher as the empty vessel that he is.

Nighty night, pumpkin. Give the missus a squeeze for me.

Grumpy Ed:

The word "torture" is only used once in the article you cite:

(S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

Again, abuse, not torture.

#198 Nanette

I did a search on Ann Clwyd in Google and low an behold many of the links lead to Jenin. A woman I graduated with, Janine Di Giovanni, wrote/writes for the Times and made that now infamous statement (with regard to Jenin):

"Rarely, in more than a decade of war reporting from Bosnia, Chechnya, Sierra Leone, Kosovo, have I seen such deliberate destruction, such disrespect for human life."

I could barely believe at the time that Janine was writing that crap. Hadn't paid her writing much attention (and pay it even less now).

Peas in a pod - got it! Thanks.

#236 dude 1394

Just like everything else these days, it's all political. whatever obfuscation that the media can make to score political points they will.

To summarize my thoughts, or maybe repeat what I said at the beginning of this thread: The perpetrators of crimes should be punished according to the principles of justices.

What frosts me is that the media and the Democrats are using these incidents to weaken American support for the war--a war which is necessary to defend Western Civilization against the barbarians (who probably also have WMD, BTW).

Rust Never Sleeps

Forget about justifying “torture” as an interrogation technique. The U.S. Army doesn’t use it because it doesn’t work. Once you start causing serious pain, your subject just starts spouting gibberish. You won’t get any useful information out of him. He’ll confess to anything and send you up a hundred blind alleys. Torture is only useful to a totalitarian regime that wants to paint a patina of “justice” on the execution of dissidents.

The only way to get reliable information out of a subject is to induce total mental confusion and the best way to do that is by disrupting his circadian rhythms – sleep deprivation, constant light, three meals in four hours followed by one in 12 hours, etc. Those techniques work. (Another classic example is the Saudi captured in Afghanistan who was made to believe he was going to be interrogated in the Kingdom. They flew him around for 12 hours and delivered him to his “Saudi” interrogators. Thinking they were sympathetic, he promptly spilled the beans. Three Princes turned up dead within a week.)

These malefactors are trying to claim that intelligence agents wanted them to “soften up” the detainees. That’s total bullshit. No interrogator who knows what he is doing would even suggest something like that. This situation is a classic example of a collapse of the chain of command. Field grade officers must serve time in Leavenworth before this is over.

But forget Dershowitz and his “torture” ramblings. The guy may be a good writer and lawyer but he don’t know squat about gathering intelligence.

Although this is politically incorrect, I found myself smiling the same kind of smile as the girl soldiers in those pictures. This is a smirk, a nasty one, and there's nothing polite or civilized about it.

I hate the way these people treat women. I have spent years reading about burquas, beatings, mutlilations, "honor" killings, and generations of bondage, slavery, endless gray slavery.

If I were there, with men under my control who believed that women were less than dogs, and there wasn't any coherent command and control, if I had to take their abuse and their spitting and their throwing of feces and worse... well...

Let's just say I wouldn't have posed for pictures. I would have humiliated them in much more inventive ways than we saw in those pictures.

And I don't think I'm the only American woman hiding a smirk behind a polite hand.

Somebody should photoshop the Iraqi pyramid to include Dan, Koppel, Peter, Moore et al.

#246 Fat Clemenza

The only way to get reliable information out of a subject is to induce total mental confusion and the best way to do that is by disrupting his circadian rhythms – sleep deprivation, constant light, three meals in four hours followed by one in 12 hours, etc. Those techniques work.

Yep, they work. And they are considered torture.

Ask Amnesty.

Another way is to cross reference their statements with that of other prisoners, then play them off against one another. There are lots of ways.

No modern intelligence operation is so stupid as to simply beat up prisoners. You break them down mentally and psychologically. You don't get so medeival that they'll say anything.

My circadian rythm has been messed up for years. Every time I go someplace it gets screwed up. My employer is torturing me.

Russian is my current hobby.

I studied it in college. It was very interesting and fun. I got to the point were I could make out a newspaper article. But honestly, I went and hung out with some native Russian speakers who spoke a mile a minute and didn't understand a word they said. It gets depressing after a while.

Plus the slang makes it even more impossible. I've heard stories of non-native professors being there 20 years and still not understanding what people are saying on a bus.

It's a real uphill battle. but the grammer and characters and words are sweet and fun to learn.

Thanks Charles.

This whole situation sucks.

Globby

I’m glad we agree.

Here’s another good piece of advice:

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

You wave a cannoli in front of my face and I'll tell you everything.

Well, I took my career in my hands last night (I'm a newspaper copy editor) and dangled it over the abyss, as reckless as Steve Irwin on too much cough syrup, when I saw the New York Times story about the Abu Ghraib mess. We were about to run it out front (we subscribe to their wire service). It contained prominently the phrase, "... the horrific descriptions and photographs that have emerged in recent days of acts of humiliation, sexual and otherwise, at Abu Ghraib prison ..."

I suggested to my fellow copy editors that perhaps the word "horrific" was hyperbole, and that simply describing "acts of humiliation, sexual and otherwise," was sufficient. Also (though I didn't say this much out loud), perhaps we can safely trust the readers, who had seen the pictures and read the descriptions, to have their own emotional reactions, and know what they were and give a name to them, without being told what to feel by the NYT.

My reaction to the pictures and descriptions, for instance, was revulsion, a need to re-check my moral principles against the difficult decision to have this war right now, and rage at the handful of idiots who risked an entire century for some jackass stunt.

But "horrific?" No, this wasn't the stuff of horror movies. In itself, it was the stuff of hell night a Phi Kappa Sigma when I lived across the quad from their house at Dickinson. Culturally, it was a brutal insult. Politically, it was a disaster. But "horrific?" Innocent people blown out of skyscrapers by crashing hijacked jetliners is horrific. Bodies burned and mutilated and torn apart and hung up on bridges of cities are horrific. Men with machine guns executing little girls and then videotaping the scene while the babies bleed to death in their car seats. That's horrific.

Eventually, I convinced them, but I had to pick up the paper this morning to be sure the change I suggested had been made and approved at the top. It was. Chalk up one small victory for sanity.

"... the horrific descriptions and photographs that have emerged in recent days of acts of humiliation, sexual and otherwise, at Abu Ghraib prison ..."

The article link posted by #238 - really grumpy big dog Johnson is worth reading because it pretty much breaks down everything in detail about what went on, the good, the bad and the ugly. It looks like there was a breakdown in leadership and accountability from General Karpinski right down to the junior NCOs in that unit.

It is interesting that there were some officers and enlisted personel in the report who were singled out for doing the right things.

Throughout the investigation, we observed many
individual Soldiers and some subordinate units under the 800th MP Brigade that overcame significant obstacles, persevered in extremely poor conditions, and upheld the Army Values. We discovered numerous examples of Soldiers and Sailors taking the initiative in the absence of leadership and accomplishing their assigned tasks.

a. The 744th MP Battalion, commanded by LTC Dennis McGlone, efficiently operated the HVD Detention Facility at Camp Cropper and met mission requirements with little to no guidance from the 800th MP Brigade. The unit was disciplined, proficient, and appeared to understand their basic tasks.

b. The 530th MP Battalion, commanded by LTC
Stephen J. Novotny, effectively maintained the MEK
Detention Facility at Camp Ashraf. His Soldiers
were proficient in their individual tasks and
adapted well to this highly unique and non-doctrinal
operation.

c. The 165th MI Battalion excelled in providing
perimeter security and force protection at Abu
Ghraib (BCCF). LTC Robert P. Walters, Jr., demanded
standards be enforced and worked endlessly to
improve discipline throughout the FOB.

4. The individual Soldiers and Sailors that we observed
and believe should be favorably noted include:

a. Master-at-Arms First Class William J. Kimbro,
US Navy Dog Handler, knew his duties and refused to
participate in improper interrogations despite
significant pressure from the MI personnel at Abu
Ghraib.

b. SPC Joseph M. Darby, 372nd MP Company
discovered evidence of abuse and turned it over to
military law enforcement.

c. 1LT David O. Sutton, 229th MP Company, took
immediate action and stopped an abuse, then reported the incident to the chain of command.

Alright I'm off to Healing Iraq to drum some sense into Zeyad. If he reads the comments.

Sigh. It never ends.

I've been away, reading the actual report. Good, systematic piece of work.

As far as I'm concerned, the system functioned, because they've been investigating the abuse for the last three months, well before the press got its grubby paws on it and turned it into a propaganda fest for the anti-war lobby.

Now, the President has explained the real issues clearly, and we get to see if the press bothers to deal with what is happening clearly. So far as I can tell, they're getting ready to white-wash Kapinsky, and crucify the administration.

If you don't believe that what happened at Abu Ghraib is torture, then you have an ulterior motive - you're either trying to reconcile your own support for the (continued) Iraqi War with the harsh reality of war: that soldiers at war aren't nice people. Maybe its due to the group-think mentality, the desensitisation to cruelty, dehumanization of the enemy, or just a reaction to the stress of war.

Which ever way, if you give a man a gun and send him out to kill or be killed you are removing him from the "civilized" world.

Of course, you have a command heirarchy and strict discipline in the military to try and keep this kind of thing happening, but obviously nothing is perfect, and thats the risk you run for waging war.

I oppose the war, not because I disagree with you over whose right or wrong, who has the better G-d, who started-it-in-the-first-place. To all of those questions, the answer is subjective anyways, so it really is a moot point.

I oppose the war because it dehumanizes us, and the soldiers are a sharper, starker reflection of the society that wields them. Only then can you begin to explain why well-spoken, intelligent, familied-people (as I observe many of you are) feel the need to dismiss the implications of Abu Ghraib, or worse, justify it.

Torture or abuse? They are just words, and as such can be twisted or turned by proponents on either side of the arguement. I think what happened to the prisoners was uncivilized, and justifying it (as some here have, not the editorial itself) because the victims themselves are uncivilized is one of those paradoxes that leaves me dispairing at the state of the world.

Pat
aka rummyjohn.

my apologies for sp/grammatical errors and fragmented sentences in my prev. post.

Was Iraq a signatory to the Geneva Convention?

Even if it was, were the prison inmates uniformed soldiers enlisted in the Iraqi army? Or were they enemy combatant / "militant" terrorists who did not wear uniforms, did not use a flag, and were not entitled to all Geneva Convention protections?

While the conduct is condemnable, I'm not sure if it's a violation of the Geneva Convention.

I oppose the war because it dehumanizes us, and the soldiers are a sharper, starker reflection of the society that wields them.

Asshat, then you endorse the status quo, which is to leave Saddam in power, which means to continue letting him fill mass graves and gas Kurds.

Or you endorse the status quo, which is to let Islamonuts blow up our buildings.

Leon Trotsky:

"You may not be very interested in war, but war is very interested in you."

Damn Jewish Zionazi Communist oppressor...

This was torture, plain and simple.

The sexual degradation, forcing a person to masturbate in front of the face of another inmate, is way beyond a little prank or even the term abuse.

When hook up a prisioner with electrical wires and tell him that if he steps down from a box he's going to get electrocuted, that's torture.

When you sodomize a prisioner with a chemical light and other implements, that's torture.

When you let a dog lose to bite a prisioner, that is plain and simply torture.

Heck, now there's an investigation that we've killed a couple of prisioners! This is a total disgrace, and unfortunately is the worst thing that could have happened. These bunch of morons have done the best job possible to discredit us, and now we're going to pay the price.

They must be punished, and we must find a way to climb out of this. But let's not start playing word games to diminish the seriousness of the issue.

No, this wasn't torture. This was abuse.

Pat, you said -

Torture or abuse? They are just words, and as such can be twisted or turned by proponents on either side of the arguement.

I looked up the following definitions of "torture" and "abuse" from the mirriam webster dictionary online

torture (noun)

1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3 : distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument

torture (transitive verb)

1 : to cause intense suffering to : TORMENT
2 : to punish or coerce by inflicting excruciating pain
3 : to twist or wrench out of shape : DISTORT, WARP

abuse (noun)

1 : a corrupt practice or custom
2 : improper or excessive use or treatment : MISUSE (drug abuse)
3 obsolete : a deceitful act : DECEPTION
4 : language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily
5 : physical maltreatment

abuse (transitive verb)

1 : to put to a wrong or improper use (abuse a privilege)
2 obsolete : DECEIVE
3 : to use so as to injure or damage : MALTREAT
4 : to attack in words : REVILE

Yes Pat, the words "torture" and "abuse" are "just words". The Declaration of Independance is also "just words", as is the Constitution, as is almost anything of any real value.

But "crap" is I think what you were trying to say.

As in, "the way we interchangeably (mis)use the words torture and abuse is a lot of crap". Or "implying that humiliating a man while in the categorical definition of causing emotional agony as torture in the noun, is not the general implication of the word torture, which implies dipping someone in battery acid. Which means that when one tries to imply that stripping someone naked is the same as dipping someone in battery acid one is handing out a load of crap."

just for fits and giggles I looked up "crap" and got -

2crap
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English crappe chaff, residue from rendered fat, perhaps from Old French crappe chaff, residue, from Medieval Latin crappa
1 a usually vulgar : EXCREMENT b usually vulgar : the act of defecating
2 sometimes vulgar : NONSENSE, RUBBISH; also : STUFF 4b

Thanks.

#263

Or you endorse the status quo, which is to let Islamonuts blow up our buildings.

I didn't oppose the attack on the Taliban and al-Qaida (but of course how would you know that? moving on...)
I did live in the mid east long enough to know that Iraq was no longer a danger (after 1991 ie), and a lot of people around the world realized that. Are you telling me now, with hindsight, you still aren't seeing 20/20? (Please, Please, Please, don't make me say WMD)

Asshat, then you endorse the status quo, which is to leave Saddam in power, which means to continue letting him fill mass graves and gas Kurds.

spare me your righteous indignation. Where were you when Pinochet was running his death squads, when the Tamil Tigers and the IRA were bombing (suicide bombing even, on the part of the former) non-combatants back in the 80's and 90's, while running fundraising organizations with impunity in the US, Canada and Europe? Did you even notice the plight of other peoples back then? Touting the Kurds and the Shi'ites maltreatment under Saddam is just shameless opportunism on your part.

Leaving Saddam in power... now theres a question. I think Iraq is more trouble, and IN more trouble without Saddam than with him. He was cruel and brutal no doubt, but if there's anything more unbearable than a brutal ruler, its an interfering foreigner, especially a foreigner so diametrically opposed to their way of life. Dictators run their course, and have been allowed to in so many other countries. Repeat after me: Iraq was a mistake.

Ti dolzhen buit tixi.

Oooof. If'n you want to tell someone to put a cork in his piehole, the Russian is: za-mol-chee! (You can of course add a -teh at the end if you're addressing more than one person.)

Russian lesson for them as is interested: tikhii means "quiet," as in "very low decibels," while molchanie means "silence" -- that is, not just low noise, but the total absence of sound. molchat' is a verb that means "to keep silent," while the verbal prefix za- emphasizes the inception of whatever action is described by the verb. So, zamolchat' means "to begin the process of keeping silent" -- in other words, shut up!

Wait a second. These prisoners were Arabs and Muslims . I thought we hated Arabs and Muslims and they deserved every indignity we could find for them.

Don't tell me LGF is losing its spine...

Torture, abuse, they were Muslims, people!

#266

The Declaration of Independance is also "just words", as is the Constitution, as is almost anything of any real value.

If you're trying to argue the immutability of words, why does the judiciary exist? Why are aspects of the law, the constitution always open to debate and interpretation (albeit by specialists in that area)? It is in no way an exact science.

Besides, if you're back to arguing semantics, you've grossly missed my point.

Oh please get rid of these idiots, Charles.

well, once again, these events are EXCEPTIONAL to normal practice. the armed forces have been investigating these issues since December; several perpetrators have been cashiered, and others have been dismissed or reassigned.

it is indeed awful, BUT it is not usual, AND it is being investigated and punished.

There is a well-known film of laughing, grinning American soldiers beating and kicking German POWs during WW2, ie worse misconduct by any reasonable standard than what we see in the Iraq pictures.

This was not generalized into a condemnation of the entire army, let alone the allied cause, yet our own media has joined that of the Arab world in doing exactly that vis a vis Iraq.

Nor was it was used to condemn our soldiers as nazi scum, that would have been absurd, yet the loathesome Ted Rall has done exactly that with the Iraq photos, with his own authoritarian pronouncements of a generalized pattern substituting for facts or reason.

Meanwhile, a few words from the former head executioner of Abu Ghraib prison under Saddam.

#267 Pat

I think there is a fundamental misconception as to why we went to war in Iraq. I believe that this is true both for the right and for the left. So let me try to clear it up.

Here are some of the reasons given. Note that all of them have some validity to one extent or another. Also, please forgive me, but while helping people achieve enlightenment is a noble goal, there is only so much enlightening I'm willing to do without being paid to do so. In other words, I don't care if you agree or not.

So, here goes.

1. We went for the oil

2. We went because of WMD's

3. We went because of all the tormented Iraqis

4. Bush junior had a score to settle with Saddam on behalf of his daddy.

5. We needed to let off some steam after 9/11 and what the hell, we've already been to Iraq before, lets finish the job.

6. It's the economy. (It's always the economy)

7. Saddam had ties to Al-Quada, so we whupped 'im, as part of the WOT (tm)

All of these have some measure of validity, and to some degree, all of them don't do a complete job of answering the real question of why we went there.

The real reason is this:

We picked the meanest, ugliest kid out of the gang, and whupped his ass real good so that the rest of the kids would take note and remember.

That's it. That's the whole reason from beginning to end. There is no more or less to it than that. If this offends you that the modern world can be chaulked up to the brutal realities of high school politics, believe me, I am sorrier than you know ( I hated high school ). But that's life (just like high school).

-ron