LGF

Hate at the Local Mosque

Thu, May 6, 2004 at 7:07:09 am PDT

An op-ed at the New York Times by Asra Q. Nomani, a Muslim in West Virginia, describes the takeover of her mosque by radical Islamists—and the total lack of concern from “mainstream” Islamic groups like ISNA and CAIR: Hate at the Local Mosque. (Hat tip: Az.)

MORGANTOWN, W.Va. — Not long ago in my little mosque around the corner from a McDonald’s, a student from the university here delivered a sermon. To love the Prophet Muhammad, he said, “is to hate those who hate him.” He railed against man-made doctrines that replace Islamic law, and excoriated the “enemies of Islam” who deny strict adherence to Sunnah, or the ways of Muhammad. While he wasn’t espousing violence, his words echoed the extremist vocabulary of Wahhabism, used by some followers to breed militant attitudes.

Like others who listened that day, I was stung by the sermon. It stands in chilling contrast to reforms taking place within Muslim communities nationwide. In fact, only months earlier at my mosque, my mother, sister-in-law, niece and I prayed in the main hall, an act of defiance that led to a reversal of the policy that women had to pray in a secluded balcony. Sadly, I have learned that the realization of an inclusive Islam is a fragile thing, even in this country. Americans need not look elsewhere to hear hate-filled rhetoric preached by fundamentalists. It resounds in our own back yards.

Like many small mosques, mine does not have an imam. Instead, a governing board —which appoints its own members — sets policy. An elected executive committee is supposed to decide who will lead prayers and deliver sermons. With infighting, that committee disintegrated over the last year, and went vacant after the board failed to hold elections in November. The board took over managing the mosque. A month before the student’s speech, he and about 10 other men staged the equivalent of a coup. They appointed five in their ranks as the “temporary executive committee” and usurped the board’s power to choose who will lead prayers, preach and make management decisions.

These men rally around strict interpretation of the Koran and Sunnah, which last week entailed a sermon that criticized women working outside the home and called women who have lost their chastity worthless. The group has packed the mosque’s bookcases with fundamentalist publications. ...

The board is finally holding an election at the mosque on Friday to officially choose a nine-member executive committee. But I have little hope for real change. Nine of 13 nominees are supported by the takeover group.

Christian and Jewish leaders offered to meet with the takeover leaders to discuss promoting tolerance in Morgantown, a city where people from more than 100 countries coexist peacefully. Their offer stands in contrast to the reactions by the Islamic Society of North America and the Council on American-Islamic Relations to complaints I filed. The society said it was available to mediate but would prefer disputes like this be resolved locally. The council, which recently started a “Hate Hurts America” campaign to counter anti-Muslim rhetoric, initially said it did not want to get involved in an “inter-community” issue, but now says it will investigate.

Unfortunately, Nomani still harbors illusions about ISNA and CAIR; she says they are “reluctant to take a strong stand.” This is incorrect; these groups are not reluctant at all to take a stand—in favor of the radicals.

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84 comments

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1 papijoe  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:10:25am

It sound like the same process that is going on in 80-90% of the mosques and Islamic Centers across the country.

2 mickthemick  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:18:13am
The council, which recently started a “Hate Hurts America” campaign to counter anti-Muslim rhetoric, initially said it did not want to get involved in an “inter-community” issue, but now says it will investigate.

And right there is CAIR in a nutshell. As Charles, Daniel Pipes, and others continully point out, CAIR is an Islamist group, an is the very antithesis of moderation & tolerance. To CAIR, anything vaguely critical of Islam or Muslims is racism, Islmophobia, etc. But Muslims hating non-Muslims is OK. Nothing to see here...

3 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:20:28am

Here it comes... prepare to be dhimmi-ized.

4 steve miller  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:21:14am

Islamites hate? Who knew?!

5 Mary  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:21:43am

OT

Nevada's Senator Ensign and Georgia's Senator Miller are co-sponsoring a bill with regard to the investigation into the UN's 'humanitarian' Oil for Food program. The bill pledges to w/h a portion of US fees if certain conditions aren't met, ie full disclosure, diplomatic immunity stripped of accused, etc. Of course, I'd rather see the US walk away if conditions aren't met. Ensign says the UN is obstructing justice.

6 super stupid  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:22:43am

Where can innocent people who want to practice Islam go? Their religion is being hijacked by radicals and they have no where to go. I truly feel sorry for them.

7 SwampWoman  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:23:02am

I remember what happened when the local Baptist preacher had a sermon about the immorality of watching football games on Sunday. (Rumor has it that Nascar was next on the agenda). Heh. That man was OUT the door by next Sunday.

Whatever happened, if your values become incompatible with your religion, with walking out? With starting a new church and not letting the other folks in? Christian churches been doin' it for a long time, which is why there are so many branches. HOWEVER, if you stay and meekly listen and accept the violence being promulgated, then don't be suprised if your children start becoming jihadists and don't be surprised if we hold you accountable.

8 The Angel Michael  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:23:37am

He railed against man-made doctrines that replace Islamic law, and excoriated the “enemies of Islam” who deny strict adherence to Sunnah, or the ways of Muhammad.

...like every non-Muslim already living in America!

People who immigrate here then spew hate about this country really make it obvious to me they are here for some "hidden" agenda... I know what that agenda is.

9 Old WVU'er  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:24:17am

Morgantown wouldn't be the smartest place to start an Islamic revolution. Never start a revolution deep within an area whose population owns guns and knows how to use them.

10 super stupid  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:25:39am

#7 Swamp Woman

Its not always that easy. Especially if you are not a strong "leader" type of person. But I understand where you are coming from. If they don't wake up and at least try to hold their ground, things could get real ugly.

11 papijoe  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:26:14am

#8 The Angel Michael

How did you get busted from Arch Angel?

;-)

12 Solomon X  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:26:48am

A rare two cheers for the NYT and a hearty three for Ms Nomani. I can't believe she has much of a future at her mosque after calling out the fundamentalists. I hope she isn't subjected to threat or abuse, but I wouldn't bet against it.

I hear anecdotes like this constantly. We need to find out what is happening exactly in our back yards, and why. Is it a saudi-planned wahabbi infiltration (as I guess)?

13 Moses Cleaveland  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:29:30am

Hunting season just came early in WV. Wild and Wonderful . . .

14 johnCV  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:29:34am

#9 Old WVU'er

LOL you got that right.

Maybe a ray of hope here in that the NYT actually has been printing some rather 'illuminating' items about islam lately. The NYT people are many things, but stupid isn't one of them. They surely realize that they would be the absolute first to go in an islamic contolled US.

15 RepJ  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:33:44am

Oh, gee, Islamic intolerance in public view. Maybe now some LLL will get the clue.

16 Dirk Diggler  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:34:01am
Like many small mosques, mine does not have an imam. Instead, a governing board —which appoints its own members — sets policy. An elected executive committee is supposed to decide who will lead prayers and deliver sermons. With infighting, that committee disintegrated over the last year, and went vacant after the board failed to hold elections in November. The board took over managing the mosque. A month before the student’s speech, he and about 10 other men staged the equivalent of a coup. They appointed five in their ranks as the “temporary executive committee” and usurped the board’s power to choose who will lead prayers, preach and make management decisions.

Jesus, that power structure is a touch convoluted. Sounds like Michael Palin's description of supreme executive power in Monty Python's Holy Grail (Supreme executive power, as we all know, is derived from a mandate from the masses and not some farcical aquatic ceremony). After all, strange women lying in ponds is no basis for a system of government.

17 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:36:41am

I feel sorry for this poor woman. By writing this article, she's marked herself for scorn from the "leaders" of the mosque.

18 gymnast  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:39:20am

Minarets, aiming stakes. Have you registered your local mosque? Seems like some of our "friendly muslim neighbors" are clearly taking aim at our way of life and perhaps more.

19 Ed Moran:Abu Shellback  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:39:31am

It is sad that there are moderate Muslims, but they are losing the fight. I get the impression that before jet travel and modern communications brought the world together, the farther an Islamic community was from the radical center of hate (ie, the Arabian peninsula) the more peaceful they became. Maybe not exactly turn the other cheek peaceful, but I get the impression that Indonesian Islam was fairly tolerant up until a decade or two ago, Turkish and Bosnian Muslims weren't too radical, etc.

But, since at its core, true Islam follows from the Koran and the Hadiths, Islam, as practiced the way the "Prophet" would want, is intolerant and dangerous.


OT
Tropical Cyclone 01A still a threat to NW India or Pakistan late weekend/early next week.

The tropical depression near Diego Garcia on the other side of the equator has been sheared apart.

UK Met computer model suggests strong tropical storm/weak hurricane in Gujarat Sunday/Monday

20 My 2 Sense  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:41:05am

#12 Solomon X-

I join (albeit grudgingly) in your cheers to the Times, and take heart that they are publishing a piece such as this, calling attention to the growing problem and putting the appropriate face on it.

Everyone is talking about America getting a "wake-up call" and rousing to action. That analogy strikes me as incorrectly premised upon a one-time deal; we get "the call" and spring into full-fledged action. I see it more in terms of an alarm clock with a snooze button. In many respects, 9/11 was the initial buzz (although God knows we sure as hell should have taken any number of previous attacks as such), and we've hit the snooze button and rolled back over. Not really asleep anymore, to be sure, but not yet really awake. It'll take (at least) another buzz to get us up and going fully. Hopefully we won't prove to be a persistent "snoozer."

21 steve miller  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:41:12am

Somewhat OT: Aaron's Rantblog with a few dhimmi-related pix:

Inspect here

22 Elmo  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:41:55am

It's a long road we'll be a travelin.' Long after I'm gone, I hope that Ms. Nomani and those here, stay the course. Though there be no other road.

23 rosh  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:45:31am

gymnast
I want to talk to you about something you said last month -- could you email me please

24 wilinsky  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:46:25am

Seems as if the women of Islam are the hope of Islam. Those in America at least who manage to get a little freedom don't really like being squashed back into the box.

25 RIP Ford  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:50:25am

I would be interested in the background of these new interlopers at here mosque. Are they regulars and local or are they being shipped in from somewhere else?

26 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:50:35am

I wake up and there are Arab journalists on Fox.
(What Bush has declared yesterday is not enough...)
I read the newspaper and there is a column about the call of the muezzin.
(It won't be so loud...)
I get on the Internet and there is a discussion about who is in charge in the mosques.
(Let's support the moderate muslims...)

I must have been traveling during the night.
I woke up in AMERABIA.

OK, we are losing it, we have not the will, the nerve, the strength and the character.
Maybe we need to get in deeper shit to understand.

27 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:53:05am

#20 My 2 Sense

The alarm clock thing is a great analogy. That's where we've been for the last decade or so (the first WTC bombing in '93 may have been the first alarm).

28 Geepers  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:54:38am

I just hope this woman got permission from her brother to speak first.

29 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:55:09am

#26,

Maybe we need to get in deeper shit to understand.

We may have to be snorkling first. I hope not.

30 urthshu  Thu, May 6, 2004 5:56:41am

Good on her! That was brave and we need more of this.

31 Solomon X  Thu, May 6, 2004 6:02:40am

My 2 Sense

Unfortunately, many threw out their alarm clocks when they went to university.

Wilinsky said

Seems as if the women of Islam are the hope of Islam.

I agree.

32 Ann  Thu, May 6, 2004 6:03:29am
33 SwampWoman  Thu, May 6, 2004 6:04:16am

#10

#7 Swamp Woman

Its not always that easy. Especially if you are not a strong "leader" type of person. But I understand where you are coming from. If they don't wake up and at least try to hold their ground, things could get real ugly.

I never thought that it took a strong leader-type person to stand up and say "this is wrong, incompatible with my values, and I will not participate", merely a person stating their values. I have been doing that my whole life! If somebody is too scared to stand up and be counted (that was never one of my weaknesses, as you may guess) then merely do not return.

34 RIP Ford  Thu, May 6, 2004 6:15:14am

Asra Nomani

Seems this women has some guts.

35 Robert  Thu, May 6, 2004 6:15:50am

Honestly I am not surprised about that article...as I keep telling my more liberal friends that any muslim who bleieves in Jihad wants to kill you and I (though I probably more because I am a Jew)...but in the end my friends would be dead too...And I am not surprised that this type of Islam is getting more publicity here in the States...it will get much worse before it gets better...

36 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 6, 2004 6:18:39am

Lovely people, these Wahabbis.

Can't anybody think of a way to make their lives so miserable that they'll choose another country to infest with their pernicious doctrine?

37 David Simon  Thu, May 6, 2004 6:20:11am

#24 Wilinsky -

Seems as if the women of Islam are the hope of Islam.

I'm not sure I agree.

Irshad Manji has been one of the most outspoken critics of Islam. We listen to her, but to most Muslims she's just a rug-munching heretic. It's more likely that she'll leave the faith rather than reform it.

Women aren't exactly held in high esteem in the Muslim world. And Muslim immigrants tend to eschew assimilation and remain rather clanish, so I don't have a lot of hope for future generations.

38 Geepers  Thu, May 6, 2004 6:23:30am

SwampWoman (#33),

"this is wrong, incompatible with my values, and I will not participate"

There's a problem there. First these ideas are dictated by the koran, so you can't disagree with them. Second if you do disagree, you're considered apostate and marked for death.

39 DP111  Thu, May 6, 2004 6:30:50am
Unfortunately, Nomani still harbors illusions about ISNA and CAIR; she says they are “reluctant to take a strong stand.” This is incorrect;

Unfortunately Nomani still harbors illusions of Islam.

With apologies to Charles.

40 Frank IBC  Thu, May 6, 2004 6:39:04am

Adunay Akbar Adunay Akbar Adunay Akbar Adunay Akbar

Ash'hadu La Ilah La Adunay Ash'hadu La Ilah La Adunay Ash'hadu La Ilah La Adunay Ash'hadu La Ilah La Adunay

Ash'hadu Musahu Rasulu Adonay Ash'hadu Musahu Rasulu Adonay Ash'hadu Musahu Rasulu Adonay Ash'hadu Musahu Rasulu Adonay

41 wilinsky  Thu, May 6, 2004 6:48:26am

#37
It is hard to tell how many Islamic women have read Irshad Manji and share her views, but on her website you can find some who do. There could be many more who don't publicly express their views because it is not 'healthy' for a women to speak up the way things are now. Not many men are on board, I grant you, but why would they be. They have it good the way things are. So I wouldn't expect the establishment to respond positively to such people as Nomani, but if some start 'leaving the faith' as you put it, that can only be a good thing, wouldn't you say?

42 Brenda  Thu, May 6, 2004 6:51:59am

Speaking of Irshad Manji, she travels with a bodyguard, for pete sake. There's no safety from killer Islam.

[Link: www.chicagotribune.com...]

Q. Why do you travel with a bodyguard?

A. It's an odd feeling being accompanied by him, but it was a move recommended to me by police in Toronto. I've received very credible death threats. On the positive side, at least I've got somebody to schlep around with. I can't afford the round-the-clock protection, but my publisher and I split the cost

43 Gordon  Thu, May 6, 2004 7:27:57am

The American Way with religion is: when you don't like what your own religious organization is doing, you leave and form a new one.

I would urge Ms. Nomani and her friends to do just that. Perhaps they could ask for contributions to help them get started from people here on LGF.

44 My 2 Sense  Thu, May 6, 2004 7:43:18am

#43 Gordon-

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by "[t]he American way . . ." Within the Christian faith, separation from the Papacy and Roman Catholicism was a European phenomenon - Henry VIII, Luther, Calvin, etc. Major portions of the people emigrating to the New World were Europeans seeking to maintain more than start up their own particular brand of Christianity, and that was long before "America" as a national entity existed.

Further, it's not unheard of for people involved in an institution such as a religious movement who become disillusioned or displeased with its direction to seek reformation rather than establishment of a rival sect. The Vatican Councils seem like good examples.

Since the great bulk of Americans are of one denomination or another of Christianity, this history seems rather contrary to calling Christian factionalism "[t]he American way . . ." Please explain.

45 Jakester  Thu, May 6, 2004 7:44:18am

So typical, Muslims are basically inflexible fanatics who must be suppressed or destroyed before we get subverted!

46 Rocko  Thu, May 6, 2004 7:48:52am

Well, I can tell you one thing. If they want to stir up trouble in Morgon town, they are definitely fishing in the wrong hole. That place has more "living on edge rednecks" than you can imagine. I wonder what would happen if it were published in the local newpaper?

47 WJA  Thu, May 6, 2004 8:02:01am

> Unfortunately Nomani still harbors illusions of Islam.

You're in a poor, poor position to criticize Nomani, or
her opinions of Islam. The editorial doesn't mention
this, but Nomani was close friends of Daniel Pearl, and
remains friends with his widow Marianne. The Pearls
were living with Nomani in her Pakistan home, at the
time of Danny's kidnapping, and as depicted in
Marianne's memoir, Asra was the heroic Nancy Drew-
like detective who worked with her to track Danny and
his hate-crazed captors down. She has seen the face
of extremist Islam up close, closer than most of us will
ever imagine, and she's seen it rip a close friend from
her life. Don't any of you dare impugn her perspective
on Islam.

48 mary  Thu, May 6, 2004 8:34:38am

when you don't like what your own religious organization is doing, you leave and form a new one.

Knowing what we know about Nomani, she's probably trying to let everyone know about the effect Wahhabism is having on mosques around the country.
She's also making it clear, in a very understated way, that CAIR and ISNA aren't willing to help.

Hopefully she'll take it to the supreme court, or whatever venue would give the most publicity, and write about all of it.

49 rumcrook  Thu, May 6, 2004 8:51:42am

here's the problem in a nut shell,

wahabism is being funded and exported by the magical kingdom. and it is so agressive that even "moderate" muslims like this women know that to fight them is to mark yourself.

even if you consider yourself a good muslim, it wont matter, you put yourself in danger, they know it and they are loosing control of mosque after mosque in the united states,

truly peaceful muslims are no match for these wahabists, its like trying to stand up to tony soprano's henchmen if your just an average joe neghborhood bussiness man.

50 Gordon  Thu, May 6, 2004 8:56:31am

#44 My 2 sense: The U.S. is full of non-demoninational Christian churches, many of which were started by individuals or groups dissatisfied with the quality of the "organized religion" offered. I know many people who switch church affiliations every several years for various reasons - either dissatisfaction with some aspect of their existing church, or the appeal of another religious institition.

Just now Episcopalians fed up with the liberality of the existing church are trying to form their own splinter Episcopalian denomination. Back in the 1980's several breakaway Episcopal churches formed because of controversy over the 1982 rewrite of the 1928 Book of Common Prayer. Missouri Synod Lutherans formed because they were dissatisfied with the ways of the established church.

Going back in history, look at the founding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in New York in the 1820's. Upstate New York was then known as the "burnt-over district," because of all the new fire and brimstone sects which formed, merged, broke away, etc. during that period.

So the Wahhabists are taking over a local mosque, that's why I say, if you can't beat them, break away and form a rival mosque. It is the American Way.

And, BTW, if the Catholic Bishops refuse John Kerry communion, he should leave the church and join another, perhaps the Episcopalians, who are basically Catholics with married clergy, without the Pope, and without the guilt.

51 Lurks No More  Thu, May 6, 2004 9:00:33am

#38 Geepers has it nailed. This woman is an apostate. If she wants to be long for this world she had better get right with Muhammed and submit.

#47 WJA

Don't any of you dare impugn her perspective on Islam.

Say Wha'? Anybody who is surprised that their efforts to reform Islam are rebuffed with extreme prejudice has a skewed perspective of that religion, I don't care who their freinds were. Of course the fact that she tried her Martin Luther routine in the US rather than in her native Pakistan suggests she has at least a modicum of common sense.

52 nonic  Thu, May 6, 2004 9:01:32am

#48 mary

The courts WILL NOT get involved in defining what any religious group's beliefs or practices are. NEVER. I know there is already precident that they CANNOT, but I can't look it up right now to give you the reference.

The only possibility for judicial intervention would be if there were some kind of charter or contract that the congregation had with the leaders, and it could be shown in some contracts-law context that one side was not abiding by its agreement. I think there was a case like that. But even then, the court would prefer to demur in any way possible.

Besides, court challenges are expensive. And surely, big money (probably even Saudi money) would be behind the "wrong" side.

53 mary  Thu, May 6, 2004 9:32:29am

#52 nonic The courts WILL NOT get involved in defining what any religious group's beliefs or practices are. NEVER.

I was just using a cliché (like ‘fight city hall’) – but I do think that she should pursue this by using the means that will generate the most publicity. I think that’s her goal.

#50 Gordon,


According to Sheik Hisham Kabbani (Sufi) More than 80% of American mosques are controlled by extremists the Wahhabis. There aren’t many places where Nomani can go.

Are you suggesting that she should start her own religion? According to this website, anyone can become a “non-denominational, interfaith” minister/person - online.

54 Chuck Pelto  Thu, May 6, 2004 9:37:43am

TO: nonic
RE: Never Say, "Never"

"The courts WILL NOT get involved in defining what any religious group's beliefs or practices are. NEVER. I know there is already precident that they CANNOT, but I can't look it up right now to give you the reference." -- nonic

Satanists believe in human sacrifice...

I think the courts would rule on that. What do you think? Indeed, I think a court in Ohio is about to deal with a case of that from back in the 80s.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

55 My  Thu, May 6, 2004 10:17:58am

#54 Chuck Pelto -

"Satanists believe in human sacrifice...

I think the courts would rule on that. What do you think? Indeed, I think a court in Ohio is about to deal with a case of that from back in the 80s."

I'm not familiar with the facts of the case you reference, but I assume it's a murder trial in which the defendant claims that human sacrifice is his religious belief.

Assuming that to be so, nonic is correct that he could not be prosecuted simply for believing it. (Inclusion of "practices" in this legal no-man's-land is a bit more problematic.) It's only when he acts upon the belief - ie, kills someone - that the courts will get involved via a criminal prosecution.

Applying this to mosques and muslims, if all they do is BELIEVE that women should be subjugated, raped and honor-killed; that Jews and Christians should be slaughtered; that apostates should be killed, and all of the other wonderful and enlightened tenets to which they subscribe, then it's hands off for the judiciary.

56 My 2 Sense  Thu, May 6, 2004 10:20:04am

Don't know why my whole name didn't come up.

Oh, and Gordon, thanks for the explanation. I suppose I should have said it's the European way too, but the notion that we do much in common with the French was too depressing a thought to articulate.

57 Martel-Sobieski  Thu, May 6, 2004 10:20:24am

F*ck trying to reform Islam. That's like trying to convert sharks into vegetarians.

Better to convert them to Christianity, or Buddhism, or Baha'i or zoroastrianism, or Taoism, or Mormonism or Hinduism or ANY Gosh Damned f*cking other religion than that Satanic, evil POS pseudo religion known as islam.

muhammed is the Anti-Christ, all muslims are devils.

I'm praying for a backlash against these prison-gang thugs on prayer-rugs.

58 Gordon  Thu, May 6, 2004 10:26:51am

#53 mary: I'm suggesting that, assuming she wants to remain a Muslim, she start her own mosque. My understanding of Islam is that there is nothing preventing such an action from a religious perspective, unless you consider death threats from your co-religionists a "preventive action."

Here's my challenge to "moderate" Muslims - if the Wahhabists are taking over your mosques, go start new ones. Start an American Muslim network of mosques which promote progressive Islam. Maybe even elect a female or gay Imam or two. Once you get started, then we'll really know that Islam isn't inherently bad.

59 Gordon  Thu, May 6, 2004 10:28:25am

As a follow-up to #58, if the "modern" Muslim association is short of funds, look for a charitable funding source to counter the Wahhabist money. I would think that one of the "progressive" charities in this country - the Gates Foundation, the Ford foundation, perhaps even the Tides foundation, would provide some contributions to get started if they were asked.

60 Gordon  Thu, May 6, 2004 10:29:08am

#57 Martel-Sobieski: why don't you take your seething Islamohatred and "final solution" rhetoric elsewhere.

61 Martel-Sobieski  Thu, May 6, 2004 10:41:55am

#60 Gordo

Why don't you take your "good little dhimmi" discredited, suicidal multi-culti-ism rhetoric elsewhere.

You are divorced from reality.

62 Throbert McGee  Thu, May 6, 2004 10:45:11am

Just googled on Asra Q. Nomani, and found that among her other activities, she's co-authoring a racy online column called Sex and the Umma:

"Who are you?" Maryam asks the man between her legs.

"Tabari," he says, looking up, his black beard glistening from where he has been.

"Tabari who?"

"Tabari the Great Islamic Historian," he says. He slides back under. Maryam remembers something that troubles her.

"Wait—aren't you the guy who wrote all those horrible things against women? I heard of you in the mosque halaqa. You’re an asshole." It's too bad, she thinks. He is doing such a—oh—such a good job otherwise.

"Aw baby, I'm just misunderstood," Tabari whimpers.

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, as the column's title suggests, she's putting out a radical and laudable countermeme -- that it's natural, healthy, and good for Muslim women to get horny -- in opposition to Islam's overwhelming misogyny.

On the other hand, will her message ever get beyond a tiny fringe of highly Westernized Muslim emigres and Western-born converts? Probably not.

63 Martel-Sobieski  Thu, May 6, 2004 10:45:46am

Gord

I notice that your immediate reaction to anyone who disagrees with your pedantic leftie-ism is to accuse them of being Genocidal.

I find it suspicious that you constantly bring the subject up.

Do you honestly think that Isamofascists in power would demur for one instant from liquidating every Jew on earth ? Do you honestly think that the would hesitate for one instant to nuke New York City of they thought they could get away with it?

Why on earth do you care if the [bigoted word]s "preserve" some vestige of thier odious cult? Why ?

64 zulubaby  Thu, May 6, 2004 10:49:40am

Martel-Sobieski (#63)

Do you honestly think that Isamofascists in power would demur for one instant from liquidating every Jew on earth ?

You're assuming he cares.

65 mary  Thu, May 6, 2004 10:59:48am

Gordon – when you say that The Tides and the Ford foundation would support an anti-Wahhabi cause, are you joking?

Teresa Heinz Kerry’s Tides foundation supports the Wahhbists at CAIR.

The Ford foundation has a long history of anti-Semitism.

Ford and Tides meet the current definition of ‘progressives’ – they’re a bunch of anti-progress anti-Zionist Chomskyites. They’re working with the Wahhabis, not against them.

66 Martel-Sobieski  Thu, May 6, 2004 11:08:41am
Ford and Tides meet the current definition of ‘progressives’ – they’re a bunch of anti-progress anti-Zionist Chomskyites. They’re working with the Wahhabis, not against them.

Not to mention marxist Ameri-phobes and atheist Chrsto-phobes.

/Birds of a feather*

67 Sean  Thu, May 6, 2004 11:23:20am

CAIR has as a feature on its website that makes it simply to send an email to elected officials and media outlets. All one has to do is enter his zipcode and write your letter.

I think LGF should add something like this, to make it easy for LGFers to contact his/her rep's asking what they are doing to combat the spread of radical islam in their local mosques.

Just a thought.

68 Rootless Cosmo  Thu, May 6, 2004 11:38:39am

I thought it was great to see the article in the NY Times. Unfortunately, it was sandwiched by Maureen Loud's piece on the left (pun unavoidable) and Friedman's piece on the right (as if he is really on the right let alone conservative). Both "opinion makers" were advocating Bush's and Rumsfeld's humiliation in front of our enemies. Meanwhile, proto-terrorists are taking over mosques in their own country.

So, this where we are: the US is being subverted from within and our so-called elites aren't willing to see the problem let alone defend the country.

What do I want to see? I'd like to see our government swoop down to West Virginia, arrest these resident enemies and deport them. Now!

69 Gordon  Thu, May 6, 2004 12:22:23pm

#63 Martel-Sobieski: There are other posters on this site (SoCalJustice, even Thom, for pete's sake) who can attack the Islamic radical menace without sounding like a slobbering Streicher or a gibbering Goebbels, a vilifying Vishinsky.

muhammed is the Anti-Christ, all muslims are devils

You're telling me this statement is the product of a sound mind? I don't think so...

70 Gordon  Thu, May 6, 2004 12:32:22pm

The Tides Foundation and the Ford Foundation claim to be progressive, so why shouldn't someone call them on it? Propose a new association of mosques which practice "progressive" Islam, perhaps an Islamic version of the liberal established protestant churches. See what happens. Perhaps LGF'ers would be pleasantly surprised.

After all, if you may remember, one of the "extreme" organizations supported by the Heinz founded Tides Center for Western Pennsylvania is this:

[Link: www.tidescenter.org...]

Also, what does alleged anti-semitism by the Ford Foundation have to do with supporting mosques? Wrong religion

71 Stop Hillary  Thu, May 6, 2004 12:37:39pm

People have asked, "where are the moderate muslims"?

This article is a part answer to that question and I've read of other cases where moderate clerics are being ousted by radicals. In the ME, moderates get killed.

I don't believe there are very many moderates in the USA. But those that may be are being silenced. While I don't believe most muslims here are ready to strap bombs to themselves or actually commit murder themselves, I think most are willing, perhaps even eager to accept the caliphate that the violent ones are at work establishing. That's all the terror cells need: silenced moderates and a majority willing either to actively support violence or be accepting of its use by others. All the evidence I see suggests to me that the Islamists have what they need in the USA in place to be very dangerous, the only thing that will help them more is greater numbers.

72 mary  Thu, May 6, 2004 1:30:15pm

Gordon – Do you have to ask why an anti-Semitic organization would be working for the same goals as the virulently anti-Semitic Wahhabis?

Why do white supremacists support the Intifada? Any idea?

73 Ben F  Thu, May 6, 2004 3:28:49pm

#62 Throbert McGee--

FYI, that story was not Nomani's; it's by her co-columnist. But it'll be nice to see her debut.

#47 WJA--

I'm with you. It's not good to be so quick to pass judgment on strangers.

Those wanting some additional background on Nomani can look here and here and here and, of course, here. She is a complicated person who has seen much of the worst that Islam has to offer.

74 Martel-Sobieski  Thu, May 6, 2004 4:25:46pm

muhammad (piss be upon him) is the anti-christ.

all muslims are devils.

What does my "soundness of mind" have to do with objective historical reality.

What were the Crusades, the Reconquista, the 700 year siege of Byzantium, the Battle of Tours, the Battle of Lepanto all about?

Why did Europe have to fight for it's very existence for a thousand years against the Saracens, Turks and Moors?

/Must have been white guilt over imperialism, dumbass*

75 abu Wassik  Thu, May 6, 2004 7:50:29pm

My recommendation is that this brave women join the Bahai's while she is still breathing. Her actions may be interpreted as apostasy.

76 Julia the Horrible  Thu, May 6, 2004 9:56:04pm

#67 Sean

Charles has better things to do.

Just go to

U.S.Senate

or

U.S.House of Representatives

and find your congressional representatives, write them.

Bookmark the links so you have them.

Everyone should, anyway.

77 Avi  Thu, May 6, 2004 10:10:21pm

Bravo Miss Nomani!

78 Avi  Thu, May 6, 2004 11:39:47pm

Now for some not so local hate.

First, Steven Stalinsky on April 28, 2004 in the National Review:

The Royal Treatment; Anti-Semitism, that is.

"... Saudi kings have also been known for holding extreme anti-Semitic views. Saudi Princess Fahda bint Saud ibn Abd Al-Aziz - who's been described as 'the daughter of King Saud and the historian of her father's reign' and who appears occasionally in the Saudi media - has written that her father's views on the Jews and Israel still serve as inspiration for the Arab and Muslim world. In one article, she explained that King Saud called the Jewish state a deadly disease that would never be accepted by Arabs. '... King Saud made the right diagnosis: 'The Zionist threat is like cancer - in dealing with it neither medicine nor surgery will do any good.' ... The late King Faisal was also notorious for his anti-Semitic statements. In 1972, he told the Egyptian magazine al-Musawwar , 'While I was in Paris on a visit, the police discovered five murdered children. Their blood had been drained, and it turned out that some Jews had murdered them in order to take their blood and mix it with the bread they eat on that day.' ..."

Next, Fahda Bint Saud on May 6, 2004 in the Arab News:

Anti-Saudi Campaign: Enough Is Enough

"Steven Stalinsky, executive director of the Middle East Media Research Institute, has published an article under the title 'The Royal Treatment, Anti-Semitism, that is'. ...

He starts his piece with this statement: The Saudi royal family has been on the forefront in espousing an extreme position of hatred toward Jews. ... The words 'anti-Semitism and 'Anti-Semitic' are, in fact, misnomers. Jews constitute no more than 10 percent of the world Semites. ... Ninety percent of the world's Jews are descended from converts to Judaism, mostly the Khazars in what once was southern USSR. I think Steven Stalinsky is one of them. In fact, it is the Zionists who have been anti-Semites starting from the holy land of Palestine and ending with a worldwide movement against Muslims and Arabs who form 90 percent of the Semites. The proof of which is his article. ...

Moreover, Saudi kings can hardly be accused of being anti-Semites. They can't be against themselves and their people. ..."

Thank you, Princess, for:
A) Proving Mr. Stalinsky's point, and
B) Demonstrating that the Saudi royals pay close attention to MEMRI and the National Review.

Good work Messrs. Buckley and Stalinsky!

79 Ben F  Fri, May 7, 2004 4:53:15am

While the Saudi-American Princess vents her frustration that her nation's judenhass is labelled antisemitism, "Progressive Muslims" at Muslim WakeUp! seek to make their new Sex and the Umma column halal by throwing in a goodly-number of anti-Israeli comments (soldiers beating slingshot-bearing twelve year olds to a pulp, Edward Said as a hottie, etc.). These from the two stories of Asra Nomani's co-columnist Mohja Kahf; Asra has yet to post.

80 David Ben-Ariel  Fri, May 7, 2004 7:25:00am

One day - I'll never forget it - my former "Palestinian" student-neighbors purposely showed me a newsletter from the Islamic Center in Perrysburg, Ohio that had a story from the Haddith - sayings attributed to Mohammad - that spoke of a war in the last days between Jews and Muslims, and how Jews would hide behind trees and the trees would say, "There's a Jew behind me, kill him!" except for one tree that would shelter the Jews.

The next month the singles' club from the Worldwide Church of God went to the mosque for a dinner-tour, followed by a question and answer session with the Egyptian imam/religious leader (who has since died and was praised as one who supposedly sought peace between different religions).

I repeated the "spiritual lesson" to the imam and asked him if the Muslims had any such saying. He replied that the Jews create such spurious sayings in order to discredit Islam and Arabs. I then shocked him, and the audience, when I asked: "If that's not a Muslim story, and is spurious and created by the Jews, then why would you, as the leader of this Islamic community permit that very story to be published in your newsletter last month?" He was speechless.

So I know, firsthand, how many people can profess that their religion is "peaceful" to a naive Western audience and whistle a totally different tune to their own masses.

I've also lived in predominately Arab East Jerusalem, just outside the Damascus Gate, working for my great American-Israeli Jewish manager under our millionnaire Muslim boss (who was exceptionally gracious). I know from a grassroots level what a farce the lying "peace" process is, and how such a false peace is based upon lies and delusions and is destined to crash and burn. All this is not popular to say, nevertheless it is the plain truth.

Time will surely reveal that peace is possible between Israel and Ishmael, Christians, Jews and Muslims - as the Jerusalem-based Root & Branch Islam-Israel Fellowship (rb@rb.org.il) proves - but it must be based upon the Bible and reality, not upon lying visions of false prophets pushing an empty peace.

[Link: benariel.port5.com...]

81 nonic  Fri, May 7, 2004 1:22:37pm

#54 Chuck

Murder, sure. That's a crime. Sorry I wasn't clear---I was thinking of "practices" such as making women enter through the back door, as in Nomani's article.

Or, in current OT news, Catholic bishops refusing communion to John Kerry or NJ governor Jim McGreevy.

82 EE  Fri, May 7, 2004 5:03:53pm

Gordon, good for you for offering constructive suggestions to Ms. Nomani. If her mosque is being taken over by radicals, maybe there is a way for those who don't like it to start their own new mosque if they cannot win back the one that they had.

As to the expression of blind hatred of all Muslims by a poster on this thread, "all Muslims are devils", it is unfair, inaccurate, and counterproductive. There are enough real enemies among the Islamists; there is no need to invent additional ones by making such a broad venting of hate, and by such broad demonization (literally).

Concerning the growing Wahhabization of mosques in the US, here is a link to some comments on this "Terrorism: Growing Wahhabi Influence in the United States"
[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

It is claimed that the main organizations involved in the Wahhabization of America are ISNA and CAIR, and that ISNA has been taking over the operation of mosques through its North American Islamic Trust.

The main organizations that have carried out this campaign are the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), which originated in the Muslim Students' Association of the US and Canada (MSA), and CAIR... ISNA operates at least 324 mosques in the U.S. through the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT). These groups operate as an interlocking directorate.

Ms. Nomani should not be surprised that the ISNA does not come to her aid. They are the ones collecting Wahhabized mosques, through their North American Islamic Trust.

83 EE  Fri, May 7, 2004 5:50:59pm

Here is an article about the Wahhabization and radicalization of mosques in America, "Saudi form of Islam wars with moderates," by Mary Jacoby and Graham Brink, in the St. Petersburg Times

[Link: www.sptimes.com...]

It is unclear whether Al-Arian would call himself a Wahhabist, but in taking over the Tampa mosque, his disciples appeared to follow the Wahhabi script. They drove out moderates, handed title of the mosque to the Islamic trus [an ISNA subsidiary called the North American Islamic Trust], and recived secret funding linked to Saudi Arabia, documents showed.
Similar scenarios took place in California, Illinois, Texas and Arizona.
Moderate Muslims filed a lawsuit in the early 1980s in an unsuccessful attempt to stop the Wahhabi takeover of their mosque in Bridgeview, Ill. The fundamentalists "infiltrated our community", the lawsuit said, "tearing down what we have been attempting to build for half a century."
84 Julio Jurenito  Tue, May 11, 2004 12:09:10am

I notice a small trickle of not entirely pro-muslim material appearing in the mainstream press. Probably, they sense that Iraqi prisoner bullshit has been milked for all it's worth, time to switch gears for a while.


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