resignation would be surrender

If it eventually emerges that Rummie knew of or sanctioned the torture, then the LLL has a case. Otherwise FOAD!

I think the administration (despite what others may say) is made of sterner stuff than to just toss off members who might be too politically damaging.

I like Frum's point #3, with Lincoln talking about Grant. We can't spare Rummy, he fights! With his 1000 styles, too!

OT, but ...

This article by Victor Davis Hanson is a must-read. It is the best post-9/11 article I have ever read.

Here here! What a waste of talent a resignation would be. Not since Bill Parcells have I seen a person handle the nitwitted press as well. Stay the course Rummy and kick ass until your shoes stink.

What exactly do people like about Rumsfeld?

Rumsfeld's a no-nonsense leader. Any replacement would necessarily be a spineless political hack with a low profile of uselessness...

The new media and looneys on Congress and elsewhere are still playing Vietnam and I doubt they'll be changing their minds soon.

Rummy did the right thing by apologizing to the Iraqi & American people. The investigation needs to move forward, and the DoD needs to pressure the media into publicizing progress made in that investigation. I agree with all of Frum's points. The Demos and the media will continue to froth at the mouth, and their witch hunts will continue. Let 'em. People are going to get sick of this crap, esp. as the RoP continues to discredit itself with more acts of barbarity against Americans, Israelis, Europeans, and itself.

Of course, get him out there.

The left can't take him on on the issues, or intellectually.

Btw, where was the uproar and call for resignations and apologies from Clinton and Reno over Waco?

Shut up already. I am sorry you who are still trying to slam the President and his Cabinet do not understand what problem is being fixed.

Even if Rumsfeld knew, even if he ordered and condoned the humiliations in order to extract information to further the war there is no case against him.

He's being attacked merely because he is competent.

Well, Frum may be wrong on his first point - that Rumsfeld neither knew nor approved of any of this. I walked in the house a few minutes ago and caught the tail end of an MSNBC report - it sounded like Rumsfeld did literally sign an ok for some interrogation practices - but what those practices may have been were no specified.

*sigh*

Siggghhhhhhhhh. Rummy.

Okay, snapping out of the reverie now.

OT:

Hamas and Fatah fighting with each other

...can only be a good thing.

Don't go wobbly now Dubya. Keep Rumsfeld.
We need more like him.

Unfortunately, all of these reasons are completely irrelevant to those who want him to resign/be fired.

Ted Kennedy et al are proving the point that the left, and Democrats in particular, are totally unserious about the war.

They are on the wrong side of history and, either they don't care or regaining power is more important than saving American lives.

They don't even have enough shame to be embarrased about it.

ISRAEL THWARTS HERMAPHRODITE SUICIDE BOMBER

www.jpost.com

Well, here's Safire's backhanded endorsement

Hang in there, Rummy!

#17 merav

Darn you !!! Just a couple of minutes late. ;-)

From Haaretz.

OT
The BBC TV news outdid itself this morning. BBC version of terrorists shooting at mourners at the memorial service for the Hatuel family: Violence broke out in Gaza when gunmen opened fire on Israeli settlers, who were taking part in a demonstration' – did you get that? “a demonstration” – following the killing of “five settlers” a few days ago.

A few hours later, a more accurate version appeared on the BBC website. This time the ‘demonstration’ had turned into a memorial service. But the headline was:
Israel demolishes 13 Gaza houses

BBC logic: Israel demolishes houses, ‘settlers’ carry out ‘demonstrations’ – no wonder the poor oppressed Palestinians shoot them.

#6 Goldie:

What exactly do people like about Rumsfeld?

In a word? Integrity. Rumsfeld's got it in spades, at a time when so many seem to disdain the fortitude and vision necessary to see the War on Terror for what it is: A War.

Another reason why so many of us like Donald Rumsfeld can be summed up in one annecdote: On September 11th, moments after a 757 aircraft slammed into the Pentagon, Rumsfeld ran to the section of the building that had been impacted by the jet, knowing that many people were likely injured or trapped in the collapsed structure. I sincerely doubt Sen. Cohen (Clinton's Sec Def) would have done the same thing, as talk is preferable to action in political circles.

Seems pretty self-evident why many of us respect (and in the case of the Estrofest Sistahs, swoon over) Donald Rumsfeld, and will stand beside him in his efforts to keep us safe.

Rumsfield should stay, but the Left hates him, and, therefore, I'm afraid they're going to stop at nothing until they get him out!

#17 Merav (THE DREAD #17!)

Hermaphrodite suicide bombers! Good Lord, what next?

I wonder if they're going to try and blame this one on Rumsfield?

Folks,

This whole contretemps is rediculous on its face.

The ARMY twigged to the problems and started a series of investigations. The Press didn't extract their heads from their anal orafaces until after the report was complete. There has been no coverup, and the folks responsible and accountable are being dealt with via trial by courts martial or NJP.

The Senate Armed Services Commitee had been informed on this matter prior to the fourth estate's discovery of the story.

At this point its ALL political grandstanding.

The system got out of whack, and was in the process of correcting itself, when the press finally woke up.

Rumsfeld not only needs to stay, he needs to point out clearly and explicitly just how the checks and ballances in the Services were working correctly, and just how broken the politcal and press cycles are.

Da_Wiz Sends

right wing conspirator,

:-)

Zogby has a column reported in Drudge stating that Kerry will win the election in light of current polling data.

Sad and pathetic if true.

#6 Goldie

What do I like about Rummy?

One, he has a quick wit and skewers the dimwits in the press on a regular basis. It’s actually fun to watch his press conferences. Too many Republicans defer to these morons and fail to make their case. They end up looking defensive and tentative and often end up doing more harm than good.

Two, he’s the first SecDef in eons who is trying to fight the next war instead of the last war. DoD has huge bureaucratic inertia and Rummy has been pretty successful in bending the “old ladies” of flag rank to his will. It’s my belief, that if America is to survive the 21st Century we must rethink our entire defense posture. Rummy is doing that – successfully.

Three, he’s a sharp dresser and accessorizes with panache.

What exactly do people like about Rumsfeld?

He's not a pussy?

Frum is right. Too much damge to undo with resignations.

We can make up for it by truning Iraq into a success story.

As horrific as these images are, and they are horrific, I suspect similar and worse things have happened in just about every war.

The US is unlucky in that this is the first big war of the information age, and its hard to keep a secret.

Small silver lining for Israel, though - perhaps a little less harping from our deluded State Department on the daily 'humiliations' suffered by the pals at checkpoints.

TalkinKamel, #22,

There are no words.....

#20 RC Neo-Jew

The Beeb has gone anti-semetic, and should be avoided like the Black Death because of that.

I'm just surprised they didn't try to work the hermaphrodite angle in somehow; you know, a "Jewish protestors, intolerant of different lifestyles, arrest differently-gendered Palestinian" sort of thing.

Disgusting how the murder of Tali Hatuel and her children is being soft-pedaled.

Very OT - But now that only 2000 people showed up, do we still have to call it the Million Mom March ?

I don't care how the press spins this. I cannot believe that this is his fault. He is a man of character and does not need his job unlike most b-crats. We are actually lucky to have him. I still think this was an isolated event.

#14 Globular Cluster

Did you catch what they were fighting over? Booth placement to campaign for student council elections. And they wound up shooting at each other.

What a bunch of imbeciles. I don't understand how even the LLL can take them seriously.

I agree with Frum, Rumsfeld should stay. There's no point in getting rid of him over the behavior of some lower echelon subordinates, unless he did in fact authorize it, which I strongly doubt.

But Frum gives away the game with his last reason:

the administration’s absolutely right and necessary policy of treating captured terrorists as a category of offender different from, say, Martha Stewart.

In other words, it's OK to torture Iraqi prisoners, according to Frum. After all, it worked for the French in Algeria, so why not use it in Iraq? Frum ought to go and live in Iraq himself; he'd fit right in. Maybe he would have fit in even better when Saddam was in charge.

The JPost said they weren't sure that the person was actually a hermaphrodite, rather, it was a woman of very masculine appearance who goes by the name "Achmed".

Do butch lesbian splodeydopes get 72 dark eyed houris?

Hermaphrodite suicide bombers! Good Lord, what next?

What kind of virgins does he get? Never mind...

/shudders

#25 TMF

Yeah, Kerry would really make a mess of things!

#21 sharona
I was trying to find that story, good for you for posting it first. I think that says it all too.

#25 TMF:

Zogby has a column reported in Drudge stating that Kerry will win the election in light of current polling data.

I think it's important to remember that Zogby is a paid cheerleader for Palestinian interests, as well as a paid shill for Terry McAuwful and the DNC. He's desperatel trying to stir the inert democrat masses who are less-than-inspired by John Kerry. If he does belief that, than he has completely lost it. A strong democrat candidate might have been able to gain on the republican foibles of late: Kerry has not, and his poll numbers continue t indicate just how off-the-mark Zogby's comments are.

Where did he make this fantastical claim? The Arab News?

it sounded like Rumsfeld did literally sign an ok for some interrogation practices - but what those practices may have been were no specified.

He apparently approved the use of certain psychological "tools" such as lots of bright lights, loud music, waking a prisoner in the middle of the night, heat, cold, etc. to get the prisoner to talk. But the interrogators are not allowed any physical contact as I understand it. All in all, pretty mild stuff if ask me.

The Dems have nothing to run on, so they (and the willing media) will keep the pressure on for Rummy's removal for the months to come. What is pathetic is that they don't realize that there is super-majority of Americans (according to a poll over the weekend) who are supportive of Rummy, and don't want to see him go.

The JPost said they weren't sure that the person was actually a hermaphrodite, rather, it was a woman of very masculine appearance who goes by the name "Achmed"...

or Hanan Ashrawi, perhaps?

#36 ed moran,

That's a question for an Islamic "scholar." You know, like the ones who answer questions online. I'd love to know the answer. Because, in a true case of hermaphrodism, the person isn't "sinning" per se. That's the way he was created.

#31 RWC

Nope, we can call it with its true name:

March of Moms who want Citizens disarmed and criminals/insurgents/terrorists armed.

Main slogan:

Help the criminals in your neighborhood, make them the only ones with guns.

/BTW, and out of the easy jokes, the movement of women in favor of armed self defense is growing WILDLY all over the Country.

Rumsfeld is extremely intelligent. I really love how he handles press conferences. The left media always try to make him look stupid, but in the end it is always them who look stupid and petty.

If bush drops him he will lose a lot of voters while probably not gaining a single voter. So it would be stupid to drop him. And it would be immoral since rumsfeld has done nothing wrong.

Isn't it nice that moral considerations and utilitarian considerations have the same conclusion? That is one thing the left will never understand.

#34 Gordon:

Using your questionable logic and jejune rhetorical skills, we can run this headline:

LGF Commentator Gordon Supports Torture

Uh Huh! You did so!

it's OK to torture Iraqi prisoners

Fish in a barrel as usual, Gordo.

#24 James

Agreed!

He has stated that if he gets into office he will:

Raise taxes
Turn over US Security to the UN
Treat terrorism as a "police matter"
Impose limits on free trade
Increase regulations on Business
Increase entitlement spending

This will certainly create one shitstorm of a mess! Or were you being sarcastic?

RC Neo-Jew #20

In view of the savage Jew-hatred of the BBC, I simply cannot understand why Israel doesn't just simply throw them out.

There appears to be no difference between European media now and in the 1930s.

The BBC is not the only guilty one. But it is the BIGGEST guilty one.

Whoops, i meant #37

Has anyone read Andrew Sullivan today ([Link: www.andrewsullivan.com)?...] Cripes! LGF seems to be an island of rationality in a sea of discombobulation. I sent him the following note (which I hope is sufficiently pertinent to justify the bandwidth):

Andrew,

Neither of the reasons you mention are the real justification for the war in Iraq. The problem we are facing is the destructive threat we face from an intolerant, supremacist ideology with the delusional goal of violently overthrowing the west. Of course, those who embrace this ideology will ultimately fail. The ultimate question is how many will die (on both sides) between now and the day we finally disabuse them of their fantasy. What makes this question a serious one is the destructive power of modern technology.

First, let me make the assertion, which I believe is strongly supported by the evidence, that Islamic supremacist is widely embraced throughout the Muslim community. Its popularity is supported by state-sponsored propaganda controlled by totalitarian Arab governments (working the repressed population up against outside bogeymen is a common tactic used by dictators). Second, while we may never be able to maintain an open society and protect ourselves from the occasional random, small-scale terrorist incident, the large-scale destruction entailed by a dirty bomb or biological attack requires serious resources (read: state-sponsored support). Popular and operational support are key ingredients to the eventual success of a devastating attack against our country and both hinge on the actions taken by the existing dictatorships in the Middle East.

Hence, the primary purposes of the war on "terror" are: 1) to force Muslims to internalize the idea that Islamic supremacy is an unattainable (and even suicidal) goal, and 2) to put a halt to state support of this movement. The attacks against Afghanistan and Saddam both worked toward these objectives. While eliminating the specific WMD threat posed by Iraq and "winning the hearts and minds" of an inherently hostile Iraqi population was/would be a nice secondary outcome, they are of second-order importance. We did not try to win the hearts and minds of the German people (many of them innocents indeed) in 1942. We were determined to crush their will and ability to continue the fight. Once they were materially and psychologically defeated, we imposed and, for a time, maintained a liberal democracy on them (and, similarly, the Japanese).

I have come to the same conclusion as you (though, apparently, for different reasons): Bush is incompetent (and, like his father, has failed at "the vision thing"). Our blinking at Falluja, failing to crush Iranian pawn al-Sadr, abdicating responsibility to Pan Arabist and anti-Semitic UN representative El Baradei, and, now, endless self-flagellation over the mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib have all demonstrated a deep lack of understanding of what this war is about and what it will take to win. Unfortunately, Kerry appears to have an even weaker grasp of the situation.

My prediction: we are simply going to have to suffer a massive strike before we come to our senses and fight this war as though we are fighting a war. Yes, we will win, but it saddens me that many more lives will be lost on both sides before this is over than would be the case if, instead, we set about crushing the Islamist movement today with all of our national resources.

On the topic of the photos, my hometown paper today ran an editorial by Frank Harris III comparing the abused detainees to Rodney King.

I think this is just the analogy I have been searching for, but not at all in the way Harris means it.

The Rodney King video, shown over and over on TV, shocked the nation and seemed a clear case of police brutality. Then, the officers are acquitted, and no one can believe it.

Unless you investigated the context of that tape. For example, we were never shown the part of the video where King charges the cops.

Can anyone honestly say that they cannot conceive of a rational and reasonable explanation for what we've seen so far? I concede it could get worse (what with all the talk of raping and necrophilia - but I'll believe it when I see it).

I think that, just like the Rodney King video, the dropped context in this whole story may be the story.

17 merav

ISRAEL THWARTS HERMAPHRODITE SUICIDE BOMBER

I knew it wouldn't be long before Ashwari lost it.

#50 Mountb

OUTSTANDING.

Someone had published on another thread the column by Sullivan and I was getting really angry/sad about it.

Excellent answer.

Every time another picture of Americans abusing Iraqi guards surfaces another piece of Israel is pushed into the sea.

#54

Every time another picture of Americans abusing Iraqi guards surfaces another piece of Israel is pushed into the sea.

aCid is GroOvy

The fact that this has become a highly charged international and political issue, one now aimed at weakening our leadership, should only illustrate that our nation is in the full grip of war and our enemies many…

Our enemies have found a chink in our armor, our morality...at least it’s a claim we can make with pride.

Its time to let the hand-wringers wring their hands and the legal system prosecute the offenders, there are bigger battles to be fought.

#6 Goldie,

What exactly do people like about Rumsfeld?

Doesn't put up with b.s. Doesn't tolerate "cycle of violence" psuedo-piety. Gave us the paradigm "Old-Europe" (ie Frawnce and Germany) vs. "New Europe" (former soviet satellites). Exposes the shallowness of the press. He's an incisive thinker and a real man.

Think Old School character engaged with the reality of the war the world faces.

#50 Mountb

Quality analysis. Only problem is that when Bush makes the case he can't get further than "freedom, justice..." before running out of words, whereas Blair had to play the WMD issue to simply keep his party with him.

Cold hard realities are constantly being blurred by the media deluge; we can only hope enough people keep the faith. Sullivan makes a lot of very valid points aboout the lousy staff, poor training and command control but does seem to have read one NYT article too many.

One good bit of news was the latest yougov poll showing 40% of Brits still in favour of the invasion which is amazing given the terrible last few weeks. Imagine if we had a sympathetic media - Christ, we'd be working overtime to sending food parcels to our boys.

Changing horses midstream would be a tactical setback, even if there were good reasons for ousting Rumsfeld, whcih there are not.

Firing Rumsfeld would also signal another terrorist victory on the heels of Spain and Fallujah. It should be avoided as a high priority.

Of course, the Democratic party has not the slightest reservation about sabotaging this essential component on the war on terror for the slightest chance of political gain. Their divisive assault on the nation's war efforts will be shown, by future terror events as well as our victories in places like Iraq, in spite of them, to be the most loathesome anti-American move by a major political party in US history.

The Democratic Party, of which I am a former, recent lifetime member, should pay as heavily for its treason as would anyone else.

Has anyone read Andrew Sullivan today

I read it late last night and also sent him an email telling him to calm down and get a grip.

Andrew, you're really going off the rails here. Maybe it's because you live in Washington. To some extent the level of disaster AG is depends on how hysterical we get about it. In fact, YOU are betraying "all those soldiers who have done amazing work, who are genuine heroes, of all those Iraqis who have risked their lives for our and their future, of ordinary Americans who trusted their president and defense secretary to get this right" by getting hysterical. That's what the UN, EU, Arab League, terrorists, antiwar leftists, etc. want. They want this to be a huge blot on our effort, instead of a small to medium sized blot. Stop giving them ammunition. We apologized, we're cleaning it up, end of story.

Michael Totten is also coming unglued, and his commenters are reasoning with him.

#53 Poitiers-Lepanto
#58 BW

Thanks. I swear, if it wasn't for the LGF community, my sense of frustration would be overwhelming.

On the one hand, the "elite" media pile-on to unseat Bush is unlike anything I have ever seen. On the other, it is still just an amplified version of what we have had to live with for the past 4 decades or so.

What drives me to dispair is that the high-visibility people who are supposed to be representing the other side are so muddled in their thinking -- from those in the Bush administration to pundits like Sullivan. Over the weekend I watched Fred Barnes and a fellow panelist get their assesses handed to them by Ceci Connally (WP) and Juan Williams (NPR) on Fox News Sunday.

Come on everyone! The Issue. Really. Isn't. That. Complicated.

#17

Should be a popular addition to the Israeli prison population. Hope no riots erupt as to whether she/he is assigned to the men's or women's section.

#60 Yehudit

Short, sweet and right on. I wonder if these people's immersion in the media whirlpool is what causes them to lose their bearings?

Mountb: My prediction: we are simply going to have to suffer a massive strike before we come to our senses and fight this war as though we are fighting a war. Yes, we will win, but it saddens me that many more lives will be lost on both sides before this is over than would be the case if, instead, we set about crushing the Islamist movement today with all of our national resources.

It must a virus in the democratic makeup not to go to war unless absolutely necessary--when the proverbial knife is at one's throat. Or a fear of the national wealth that may be lost in an all-out fight to the death. Or both.

We're also saddled with a president who may be gun-shy: a primary goal of his has been to keep casualties to a minimum instead of imposing military defeat on the enemy.

Since the democrats are even worse, all we can hope is that Bush wakes up and goes to war before we lose it. I noticed that the Washington Post got serving officers to go on record this weekend in criticizing the White House and Pentagon. Warning shots that hopefully will get them to see that they are in deep trouble.

mountb (#61),

Thanks. I swear, if it wasn't for the LGF community, my sense of frustration would be overwhelming.

If it wasn't for LGF you would know the true situation and thus would have no reason to be outraged at the bias and spin.

One reason most major news outlets repeatedly attempt to discredit weblogs.

ploome (#66),

LGF details news that would otherwise never be reported in the mainnstream media.

Then when we hear Dan Rather "report" some outrageously slanted opinion as "news" it drives us crazy.

If we didn't know what the true situation was, we wouldn't be able to see just how ridiculously one-sided their newscasts are.

Bush supports Rummy!

From MSNBC, Pres. Bush says Rumsfeld doing a "superb job".

Bush says Rumsfeld doing a ‘superb job’

Send Pres. Bush an email to thank him for supporting Rummy - I did.

#64 Gary Bruce

I guess, in some sense, the trouble we are having getting serious about the war is the reason the world would be a better place if entirely populated by democracies. Still, it sure is frustrating when we are on the receiving end of a vicious ideology that has no such compunctions.

#65 Geepers

Did you mean to say "wouldn't know the true situation?" If so, I agree. If not, I'm with ploome hineni in my confusion.

mountb (#69),

Yes, wouldn't. See my clarification in #67.

#30 TalkinKamel

The Beeb has gone anti-semetic, and should be avoided like the Black Death because of that.

It's certainly is, and I'd love to avoid it like the Black Death but I don't think we can just ignore it - it is the main source of news for most people in Britain and can do enormous damage. Antisemitism is increasing here, and the BBC plays a major role in this.

#48 fireman

Agreed. Channel 4 News is sometimes even worse, though.

Meanwhile the BBC thinks this story is much more important than the murders of the Hatuel family: Death of terrorist-supporter Tom Hurndall far worse than murders of expectant mother and four little girls.

Frum writes:

4) Resignation would actively damage the war effort. The debate over Rumsfeld is a debate over the whole war on terror — and especially over the administration’s absolutely right and necessary policy of treating captured terrorists as a category of offender different from, say, Martha Stewart.

That's a bit of a stretch, IMO.

In fact, it's somewhat amazing to me how infrequently Guantanamo has been brought up during this whole Abu Ghraib fiasco.

#71 RC neo-Jew

Yeah, I can see why you'd want to read it, to see what propaganda they're going to spiel next---but AAAARRGGGGGHHHH, WHAT A HORRIBLE "NEWS" OUTLET!

#31 RWC

They must have taken demonstration organizing lessons from the same three people that showed in S.F to support Vanunu.

#71 RC-Neo Jew

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezus. It just gets worse and worse with the BBC. Such a disgrace. Churchill spinning over and over....Totally revolting and makes me feel embigelized.

Rumsfeld absolutely, positively MUST NOT RESIGN!

I hate this damn Al-Ghraib scandal because it gives an opportunity to the worst people to point fingers of accusation at the most worthy and almost get away with it.

Rumsfeld has been very successful, for the most part, in his prosecution of the Iraq War so far and for that very reason he is despised by some and they want him gone and the opening this scandal gives them is almost intolerable for some. Some Florida group recently placed an ad in a Florida newspaper calling for a hit on the Secretary of Defense.

The least they will do with this scandal is see that we never hear the last of it. The worst they will try to do is bring down the Sec. of Defense so that America loses the War on Terror and the War in Iraq.

So Rumsfeld must stand firm, whatever happens, so that no matter how long the LLL try to keep this scandal afloat, we don't lose sight of the very vital fact that we are still prosecuting a war and those who wish to see the Iraqi people succeed here don't believe all Americans behave like those pictures portray. The trouble is not convincing people of good will--it's reasoning with people of bad will--who wish to keep the scandal front and center on purpose to derail relations and poison all communication between the Coalition partners, the Iraqi Provisional Council and the average Iraqi citizens and the US.

Let's not hand our secret weapon ("Rummy") to the LLLs and the Jihadists, all of whom want to see him out of there because he's doing such a great job.

Long Live the many signs of Rumsfeld.
["V"]

It clear from history that propaganda is always in the eye of the beholder. The truth lies a lot deeper, emerging eventually.

Just as the propaganda, spouted before the war on LGF and other crypto-fascist websites, centred on the 'truth' that Iraq harboured a vast cache of WMD and that Saddam was a friend of Al Queda.

The 'propaganda' was found out as so horribly, horribly wrong.

Surely Rumsfeld, at least, deserved to be cast as a scapegoat and forced to resign for the sorry mess he dragged the world into.

#20, RC neo-Jew

The only thing worse than the BBC is the CBC, but the good news is, most people have never heard of it

Hey it is sweeps month-- MAY!!!
It all plays out in the end-the photos are released, scandals break in sweeps.
I wonder how cameras got into the prison. don't they have scanners and frisking. If you work at a port or airport, you get frised and scanned and have to empty your pockets. Maybe this is a scam, not the abuse,but the photos and the timing of the release of them.
Two two-headed Snakes for Rumsfeld!! Stay on!

Just hello!!!