Hence why I refuse to enter a Catholic Church, in which I was raised. They just live and operate in a different world.

The West is also identified with the West. Am I as profound as that nutball

I swear we are living in an up-is-down right-is-wrong time of abject stupidity.

“the West is often identified with Christianity.”

Thanks to the idiotic policies pursed by the post Vatican II Church, its becoming less and less Christian.

Where's Urban II when you need him?

Ummm. Right. It would be scurrilous and tawdry of me to bring up the recent deaf-school abuse claims, or the documented aberrant pederasty (I will also eschew the expression "child-rearing") of many priests. Come not near to them, for they are holier than thou.

/sarcasm

Oh please. The so called Democracy in Pakistan that was the conduit for US/Saudi money and arms funnelled to the mujahideen didn't seem to have any problems with Islamists cutting off heads of Russian soldiers.

Dear Vatican,

Less talky, more studying.

Sincerely,

Another Lay Catholic

The Vatican which was conspicuously silent during the Holocaust can now do nothing more then mouth meaningless platitudes int eh face of Islamofascism.

Is there anything remotely true in his statements?

Has massive pedophilia convictions "hurt" the church more than the inquisition?

Muslims hate christians? Really- more than they hate jews? Was 911 a sign of hatred? Was post 911 celebrations in the streets a sign of hatred?

Should mass murder and terrorism "fuel hatred" for Islam in the West more so than these isolated acts?

Why is this guy alive?

#7 Joel

I agree. The Vatican, once again, genuflects to fascism.

And this from the great moral arbiters that have made an institution out of covering up priestly child abuse for decades. But hey, like the jihadis, they've got "god" on their side.

#7 Joel

While I'm not letting the Vatican escape the holocaust criticism, I have to point out that there's no Third Reich knocking down governments next door to the Vatican right now. Ignorance towards Islamism from the Vatican is entirely unacceptable from an idealistic standpoint and a realistic standpoint. They face no land threats whatsoever.

Have they yet aplogised for ignoring the Nazi death camps, their priests, nuns and monks who murdered women and children in Rwanda and all child abuse their priests have commited all opver the world?

And, he added, “the West is often identified with Christianity.”

What a clever observation that an area with a large Christian majority is 'identified as Christian'. Next he'll tell us that the Middle East is often identified as Muslim.

Nice to see the Holy See is giving work to is more challenged members.

When did the Vatican develop this dhimmi attitude vis a vis Islam?

According to this Arabs are divided over beheading of American in Iraq.

I have love and respect for American Catholics. There's a lot of Cath/Jewish intermarriage. But I have a loathing for the Vatican and the troglodytes ensconced there. From time to time they throw Israel a bone, but for the most part they are useful idiots for the Jihad and Islam in general. There's photo of the Pope kissing the Koran. What a disgrace! So dumb! So ahistorical!

Jes' doin' "The Vatican Rag"

Torture? Funny, but I don't seem to remember a similar statement from the Vatican in the aftermath of the priest sex abuse scandal.

Lajolo said that “intelligent people in Arab countries understand that in a democracy such episodes are not hidden and are punished ... Still the vast mass of people — under the influence of Arab media — cannot but feel aversion and hate for the West growing inside themselves.”

And, he added, “the West is often identified with Christianity.”

That part is actually pretty true, IMHO.

I just remind myself that the Church is supposed to be correct in matters of religious doctrine, which doesn't apply in this case.

The Vatican hierarchy is comprised mainly of European men, fairly well insulated from the abuses and evils of Islam. It would probably do wonders for the Church if the next Pope is African or South East Asian. Maybe not too likely, but John Paul II was the first non-Italian Pope in hundreds of years, so it is possible.

#7

Exactly.

And what was that case about catholic Priests who helped the paleostinians transporting weapons in their cars...??? It was one or two years ago.

James
Arabs Divided Over Beheading of American in Iraq

It's that inner Jihad thing again. Where the [bigoted word]s struggle within over the best way to kill off the non-muslims.

The morlocks have now been educated thanks to Pipe Pope.

Lajolo said that "intelligent people in Arab countries understand that in a democracy such episodes are not hidden and are punished

When pressed by the interviewer, Lajolo admitted he could neither identify any Arab democracies, nor any intelligent people in any Arab countries.

And, he added, "the West is often identified with Christianity."

Who knew?

the Vatican is truly off their nut.

Last week:

Vatican says Iraqi prisoner abuse is scandal which 'offends God'

"Violence against people offends God himself,

But it seems God isn't especially concerned if an American is beheaded in a brutal act of revenge for those prison abuses.

Claudia Rosett: North Korea, Oil-for-Bribery

She is brilliant. Just, as they say, read the whole thing.

They were protesting the most horrific surviving totalitarian regime on the planet. They were making entirely reasonable demands. They knew what they were talking about. Among their number were several defectors from North Korea, who had come to New York after testifying before Congress about horrible abuses of human rights in North Korea, alleging biological and chemical weapons experiments on prisoners in the slave-labor camps of Kim's regime. One of these defectors, Dong Chul Choi, who escaped along with his mother in the mid-1990s and has since become one of an incredibly small handful to receive asylum in the U.S., was wielding a megaphone, calling in both English and Korean a few words that deserve to echo around the world: "Free North Korea."

North Korea is a Stalinist backwater. There is starvation, cannibalism, murder, torture, braiwashing, human experimentation, WMDs, just pure evil really.

Where's Pius XII when we need him? I wish the Pope were not so infirm that he could blast this islamofascism as well as he blasted communism in the 80's.

A bunch of European intellectuals ensconced far from the real world, being protected by the exertions of better men than themselves. A pox on them.

I'm a Catholic. I acknowledge the Pope's primacy in matters of faith. In matters of politics, life, and death, though, the Vatican has been woeful throughout my entire life.

God, please give us an African Pope the next time.

Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo described the abuses as "a tragic episode in the relationship with Islam" and said the scandal would fuel hatred for the West and for Christianity.

A "tragic episode" in the ongoing tragedy that is the Islamic world's relationship with everything that is not Islamic. They already hated the West & Christianity. Where did Giovanni Lajolo earn his divinity degrees, King Fahd University? This guy is already the perfect dhimmi.

A more serious blow to the United States than Sept. 11.

There are also serious blows in the rectumry.

Pathetic.

It's sad that in his last days Pope John Paul II, the arch-enemy of communism and one of the men who did most to bring about the liberation of Eastern Europe, has become an apologist for Islam. An appeaser.

Sad and disgusting.

Where's Pope Julius, the Warrior Pope? I swear, my beloved Church is full of Euroweenies!! I pray that the next Pope is someone with fire in his belly. JPII used to be...

That's because mentally ill death cultist radical Islamo-fascists who hijack passenger filled aircraft and fly them into 3,000 unsuspecting noncombatants is NOTHING compaired to the image of an Iraqi prisoner with a stick up his butt..

*slapes forehead*

Talk about breathtaking moral relativism – the Vatican wrote the book. I think the vatican is using this as an oportunity to divert attention away from there own scandals. It's the *see - that's much worse whaaa* (insert whiny tone) diversion.

I would just like to say that I think catholic priests who molest young children are much mush much worse than any of the Abu Ghraid prisoner abuse. But then, that's just me.

Just remember the "new world order" double standard:

Israelis kill terrorists (with unavoidable but minimal civilian casualties) - MURDER!! (UN condemns)

Palestinian terrorists kill Israeli citizens - FREEDOM FIGHTERS!! (UN looks the other way)

Americans defend themselves by killing/imprisoning terrorists (with unavoidable but minimal civilian casualties) - MURDER!! (UN condemns)

ANY OTHER NATION IN THE WORLD kills terrorists (with major civilian casualties) commits genocide, imprisons and tortures innocent people - (UN looks the other way - yawn)

I'm sad to see the vatican joining the National Council of (Liberal/Secularist) Churches in denouncing the US while failing to defend Christianity and liberty.

Any "official position" from the Vatican on the recent attacks against Christians in Nigeria?

(sound of crickets chirping...)

#7 Joel
Not to mention the church's participation in helping proclaimed Nazi catholics escape justice.

I would think the church should take care of "in-house" abuse and torture rather than jumping at every chance to criticise the US govt. See the recent accusations of abuse by nuns toward deaf children in their care?

I know many many fomer catholics in the US, myself included, who feel the church should stick to spiritual matters.

I'll say it.

The buggery part of dhimmitude appeals to them. They liked the prison photos.

Or, get your own house in order "holy" man.

First Amendment Shield engaged.

"their" own scandals...

An absolute disgrace for the Church. God forgive us for our cowardice and idiocy in the midst of crisis.

Catholic Priests who molest children.
Three strikes - you're out.

*wow*

*slaps* not slapes - oy.

Charles-I linked to the Catholic News Service where the story orignates in another thread. In the original story, here's a beauty of a quote:

Of all the images that have been released, this one is the most "tragically symbolic" because it shows a desire to treat the enemy almost as an animal, it said.

And:

Father Lacunza said Bush's words of regret to Arab peoples did not go far enough. He said the president must take bigger steps to heal the wounds and diminish the hatred being caused by the war.

I'm sure the next media releases will be about Tali Hatuel and her daughters, Nick Berg and the Israeli soldiers whose body parts are still being hoarded in Gaza.

I remain a happily lapsed Catholic. Barring weddings and funerals, I never intend to set foot in a Catholic Church again. First, there were the sex scandals. These sordid happenings were followed by the Church's continued refusal to consider women for priesthood. As for homosexuals, shabby treatment is par-for-the-course. Now this. The Catholic Church is as useful as the U.N. Both are out-dated, autocratic institutions. Kofi Annan and John Paul need to do lunch.

When I'm looking for proper perspective, I'll know not to consult the Catholic church in the future.

So BDS has hit the vatican? Who knew?

a tragic episode in the relationship with Islam

As long as mohammedanism exists, every time it comes into contact with anything is a tragic episode.

Is it any wonder that many protestants identify the RCC with the 'whore of babylon' in the revelation of John?

Now I know where the expression "Holy Shit" comes from.

Where's my rosary? I want to strangle those assholes.

#37 FrMichael

Are you a priest?

I haven't spoken to a priest since I was married 13 years ago. How widespread is this attitude in the American clergy?

"Under the sponsorship of the President of the EEC and the Secretary General of the Arab League, at Ca' Foscari di Venezia, the opening took place on 28 March 1977 of the first 'Seminar on the Means and Forms of Co-operation for the Diffusion of the Arabic Language and its Literary Culture'. The organizers included not only the Oriental Institute of Rome and the Faculty of Foreign Languages of the University of Venice: the other organizer was the Pontifical Institute of Arabian and Islamist Studies. In the presence of delegates from ten Arab countries (Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Sudan) and eight European ones (Italy, France, Belgium, Holland, Great Britain, West Germany,Denmark and also Greece, which did not yet belong to the EEC), it lasted for three days... On 30 March it concluded with a Resolution which unanimously requested the diffusion of the Arabic language and Arabic culture in Europe..."

O. Fallaci, La Forza della Ragione, p. 159 [my translation]

"a tragic episode in the relationship with Islam"

What relationship with Islam???

Does the Vatican think that appeasement of terrorists, theocrats and totalitarian regimes is a relationship with Islam???

You can always count on the Roman Catholic Church to get it ass-backwards when Jews are being slaughtered.

charles
this blogger just cleared up the difference between radical islam and radical christianity in the modern era

[Link: orthovoxblog.blogspot.com...]

i found the blog from a link on dhimmi watch

[Link: jihadwatch.org...]

This is just one more example of why churches in the West are experiencing the "empty pews" phenomenon: these political statements from the Vatican as well as the NCC blatherings from yesterday are alienating rank and file Christians, who go to church to be ministered and guided about spiritual issues, not lectured about how they're supposed to view politics.

It is not the place of religious institutions to insert themselves into politics.

Like #26 Palandine said, the RCC needs an African pope (one who hasn't succumbed to the new PC leftist bullsh*t that seems to infect the higher echelons of the Vatican), if you want to see the RCC leadership return to a more "fire in the belly" stance on the basic issue of right vs. wrong.

Just my 2¢

---
sorry for the rambling, my only excuse is 4 hours of sleep.

Sorry to go off topic but isn't this just typical?

European Union disregards US sanctions on Syria

The European Union has chosen to ignore US sanctions on Syria, and an EU economic delegation is scheduled to travel to Beirut and Damascus next week, reported IBA news Wednesday.

If the US says black, the EU says white. The Islamists are not our only enemy.

I haven't spoken to a priest since I was married 13 years ago.

I should probably clarify that the one has nothing to do with the other ... LOL.

I've seen this same logic, though often less bold, expressed everywhere.

:(

I've seen people say that if this type thing is in any way representative of what is acceptable, they'd never allow their children to serve in the US Military. And that they'd refuse to have their tax dollars support any government that would stack men naked.

I'm on the side of the spooks. They are regulated all to hell as it is. They can stack men naked 24/7/365 for all I care. Fuck islam's or anyone elses reaction to it. They can line up to be stacked too if they want. And if they raise guns or bombs or sawing swords against us, well then they can go visit allah.

51 Tasty Beverage

This is just one more example of why churches in the West are experiencing the "empty pews" phenomenon: these political statements from the Vatican as well as the NCC blatherings from yesterday are alienating rank and file Christians, who go to church to be ministered and guided about spiritual issues, not lectured about how they're supposed to view politics.

You've got your sequence backwards. It's not that people are turned off the church because it makes political statements (probably many people agree with what the church has to say about political issues). Rather, the church makes political statements as a way of staying relevant at a time when it is losing members and can't recruit enough new seminarians.

I also think it's not right to speak about empty pews in the "West". The situations are very different in Europe compared to the US.

Now, remember there is a thing as the Religious Left.

But, it's only us conservatives who go to church who are a "Threat worse than the Taliban"

In the long history of the Church, assuming it survives, John Paul will be remembered primarily as the Pope who sold out the Church to Islam.

And why not remembered for his stand against communism, you might reasonably ask. Because, in the future Catholics, along with all other Christians as well as with Jews, Hindus, and nearly everyone else on the planet will be fighting a continual war aginst Islam. More Catholics and Christians will be killed in defending their faith from Islam's madmen then were ever killed because of communism. Pope John Paul will be recalled as the Pope who could of mobilized his people against this threat when it was still able to be defeated early. He will be remembered as an appeaser who put Muslim interest above this own people.

I'm a Catholic.

I think this is the most revolting story I've ever seen about the Vatican's bureaucracy making idiotic comments about the War in Iraq.

This article is shameful. But I chalk it up to a European bureaucrat in the Vatican who is probably anti-American and has really lost all sense of reason here.

Let's call this what it is: a stupid exercise in moral equivilence by an idiotic anti-American Vatican bureaucrat.

Please, people, don't smear Catholicism with a broad brush. It really hurts me to see that, just as it hurts to see my own Church say such idiotic things like this.

Christianity could be perfect if practiced by someone other than people.

Since it is practiced by people, it is far from it.

I am a Christian. I believe in the existence and the salvation of Jesus Christ.

But I haven't been able to bring myself to go to church in almost two years.

My own religion is starting to disgust me.

Ugh.

This is interesting:

Iraqi cleric hints at deal

The young Iraqi cleric leading a month-old Shiite uprising against US occupation says he is prepared to disband his militia army.

Mmm? After we "surrendered" Najaf, Sadr is ready to "make a deal"?

Maybe if we "surrender" in Baghdad, all his guys will turn themselves in.

Ironically for the Vatican, the solution to the war on islamofascism, is for America to 'Go Roman' on the islamofascists, and their supporters.
 

In an interview published Wednesday in the Rome daily La Repubblica, Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo described the abuses as “a tragic episode in the relationship with Islam” and said the scandal would fuel hatred for the West and for Christianity.

"Relationship with Islam ???" Did I miss a meeting? WHAT relationship with islam exactly ?? Was there a Catholic-Islam bake sale / car wash down at the social center?

Ohhh, he must mean the "life and death struggle which goes completely unacknowledged by the cowards in the Vatican because they are morally compromised and defenseless" relationship. He must mean the relationship where the thoroughly dhimmi-tized "Catholic" Paleostinians call the tune and the Vatican dances.

Hey, Lajojo, I guess you guys don't get cable in there, but guess what. They DON'T NEED any excuses, they ALREADY hate us, dumbass.

“The torture? A more serious blow to the United States than Sept. 11. Except that the blow was not inflicted by terrorists but by Americans against themselves,” Lajolo was quoted as saying in La Repubblica.

Here's a funny ! Insert the words "widespread pederasty scandal" for "torture" and "Vatican" for "United States and 'Americans"

Lajojo, you should be defrocked and sent to a monastery in Siberia. I don't know who you purport to speak for, or what your office is, but you have obviously hit the glass ceiling.

Lajolo said that “intelligent people in Arab countries understand that in a democracy such episodes are not hidden and are punished ... Still the vast mass of people — under the influence of Arab media — cannot but feel aversion and hate for the West growing inside themselves.”

This last gem has just enough truth in it to make it plausible. Just remove the first three lines.

Hey la-jojo, try defending your flock instead of moral-equivocating and flagellating the United States.

And, he added, “the West is often identified with Christianity.”

"Sahib, sahib, it wasn't us ! We are the GOOD Dhimmis ! Please don't 'splode us ! It was the BAD westerners, not us good Dhimmis"

Methinks that the folks in robes and funny hats of all different stripes doth identify a tad too strongly with each other.

I guess that it's a small step from being in bed with Altar boys, to being in bed with the worst moral troglodytes that ever plagued the earth.

I pine for the days when the King could have these fools beheaded.

#58 Sydney,

I feel your pain.

/ no sarcasm intended*

#52 zulubaby

The Islamists are not our only enemy.

The trouble is that we in the EU are our own enemy. On this side of the Atlantic, at any rate, the civil war has already started.

“The torture? A more serious blow to the United States than Sept. 11. Except that the blow was not inflicted by terrorists but by Americans against themselves,” Lajolo was quoted as saying in La Repubblica.

How does anyone at the Vatican have time to come up with this? Don't they have some deaf kids to rape?

I love the irony of this racist remark. The Vatican's subtext here is that the common street mohammedan is too blinded by his own disgusting and backward worldview to make a sound judgement about the relevance of the Abu Ghraib fraternity pranks. The common street mohammedan can not be held accountable for his actions and for his hate of the free world. It's not their fault, it's our fault.

Same kind of logic the liberals use to explain why minorities need special assistance. They are incapable of success without it.

The Vatican, I'm afraid to say, is morally irrelevant, and proves it with every press release.

You know, I am totally against what US troops did in that prison. I don't think it was at all acceptable. If someone gets out of line, shoot 'em in the head, don't shove a glow stick up their ass. But, for the Vatican to jump in with their 2 cents is a bunch of shit. Where do they get off pointing the finger with regard to abuse and torture. Look at the thousands of children abused in the US alone by priets, while the Vatican turns a blind eye. Add in the molestation and rape of nuns around the word...

Someone should pour the Vatican a nice tall glass of "Shut the Hell Up."

Please, people, don't smear Catholicism with a broad brush. It really hurts me to see that, just as it hurts to see my own Church say such idiotic things like this.

Say, aren't you the fella who was likening atheists to leeches the other day?

We are flagellating ourselves over this "torture" and probably causing as much confusion in our Islamist opponents as they do in us when we see the Shiite's yearly literal self flagellation on Ashoura.

Yet there is at least one big difference, we will use the experience and change for the better.

You know, as a Catholic and an Italian I sometimes feel down right embarrassed at how the Vatican conducts itself vis-a-vis the Islamofascists. Can't help but wonder if the old Archbishop's got a prayer rug somewhere in his closet (you know, just in case).

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!

#52 zulubaby

If the US says black, the EU says white. The Islamists are not our only enemy.

You hit the nail on the head there --- the EU would like to crush America and be the big world superpower so will even stoop as far as encouraging terrorism in Iraq...

Guess we know where HE'S coming from!

BTW, I am a Catholic (not a practicing one since I got pretty good at it), and this really upsets me. It almost seems as though most of the entire world has been stricken by a collective insanity.

As a Catholic I have often struggled with the distinction between the religion and the politics of the church.

The religion is great, powerful and meaningful.

The men who have come to run the institution seem to have lost any sense of Christianity. They have evil in their midst which they cover-up to secure their own power and prestige. My God, can they behave any more antithetically to the teachings of Jesus than to embrace power before the greater interests of the human beings they (supposedly) serve?

I love Christianity. I cannot abide the immorality of much of the Catholic "leadership" anymore.

Unless there is truly divine intervention with some new leadership I don't see how Catholicism will survive among followers who can discern right from wrong.

At least we now have the Vatican on record as being against the sexual abuse of young men.

I apologize to the Catholics among us, but I just couldn't resist ;-)

#62 Martel-Sobieski

I didn't think anything could make me laugh about this but your post managed to do the trick.

Thanks. I needed that.

AP says five Israli soldiers killed in Gaza explosion. A7 says injured.

#72 Logic

It almost seems as though most of the entire world has been stricken by a collective insanity.

That's an understatement and a half!

There's still a silent majority who the media will never listen to, because they all have their own anti-American agenda...

As a British Jew I thank G-d everyday for flawed, obstinate and callous men like Henry VIII and Oliver Cromwell for stopping the UK from being a Catholic Country. Protestantism has its problems, left leanings and general lack of bollocks but at least in ain't the Holocaust ignoring, child sodomizing, wealth obsessed mess that is Catholicism.

I'm surprised that an "American Catholic Church" hasn't already split off from Rome.

What's amazing to me is how the press acts as if the Vaticrats constitute some moral authority even after all the scandals. My paper, the very left San Francisco Chronicle, still prints long letters to the editor from the local bunch, goes to them for quotes all the time, etc. The deference accorded them by the Chron remains a constant -- you would think it was an earlier century

#7 Joel

Not to mention the church's participation in helping proclaimed Nazi catholics escape justice.

Do not foget Pope John Paul II neeting Arafat in mid 1980s of course according to JP II stem cell research is a great evil.

"The torture? A more serious blow to the United States than Sept. 11. Except that the blow was not inflicted by terrorists but by Americans against themselves,"

I agree with the Archbishop in that, when "they" do something to us, there are those among us that blame us. When we do something bad to them, the whole lot of us blame us.

At times like these I take solace in the words of Tom Lehrer - no offence meant to any sincere Catholics:

VATICAN RAG:
First you get down on your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect,
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!

It is painful to watch two institutions I grew up respecting, the UN and The Catholic Church, become completely irrelevant and disrespected through their out of touch and dangerous pronouncements.

The Vatican has completely lost touch with reality.

It has been stated that through it's rejection of birth control, which effectively sentences tens of millions of people to lives of misery each year, the teachings of the Vatican is responsible for more death and suffering than all the world's wars combined.

"Say, aren't you the fella who was likening atheists to leeches the other day? "

Get a clue. I meant that athiests are part of the culture they grow up in and adopt the values of the broader culture, which in America is Judeo-Christian. Is that so hard to acknowledge? What I said was meant as good, because it acknowledges that athiests are not moral relativists and can adopt humane morals without an underlying religious basis. Ok?

Fortunately, most of the rest of the Catholic Laity really doesn't care about what some old men in Italy say.

American Catholics read this kind of stuff, shake their heads in disbelief...

#30 Cato the Elder:

It's sad that in his last days Pope John Paul II, the arch-enemy of communism and one of the men who did most to bring about the liberation of Eastern Europe, has become an apologist for Islam. An appeaser.

I'm not so sure that the Pope calls any shots anymore at the Vatican. He's grown so old and frail, he can barely speak in public, and depends heavily upon his handlers. I don't believe that he is any longer in a position to reign in the nuttier Cardianals. It seems that people expect him to die any time now.

Its a shame -- he was truly a decent man, and a credit to the Church. He was willing to face up to, and try to correct, some of the more odius historical aspects of Catholicism. I think it is clear that he would responded very differently to the Holocaust were he Pope at the time.

This hysterical dhimmitude just doesn't seem like its in his character. He has had a deep courage of conviction, and I don't think that sort of thing suddenly goes away. Its a shame that has to be figurehead over an institution which is going seriously downhill in recent years. Maybe there should be something short of death which allows a Pope to retire and be replaced with someone who can actively participate in the See.

Dave Ray #78---

FOAD!

If you weren't Jewish ---You'd be celebrating the Hitler and the NAZI atrocities too.

I would just like to say that I think catholic priests who molest young children are much mush much worse than any of the Abu Ghraid prisoner abuse. But then, that's just me.

Pot, meet Kettle.

OT - question for the Russian speakers here. What is the Russian for "opiate withdrawal". I would need both the proper and the vernacular terms.

Thanks

Julio

It has been stated that through it's rejection of birth control, which effectively sentences tens of millions of people to lives of misery each year, the teachings of the Vatican is responsible for more death and suffering than all the world's wars combined.

The Vatican has also looked on approvingly as priests in Africa denounced condoms as useless for HIV prevention -- since, after all, the "spiritual death of contraceptive sex is worse than the physical death of AIDS."

#55 BPP

It's not that people are turned off the church because it makes political statements (probably many people agree with what the church has to say about political issues)

See, I have to disagree on this point. This of course is anecdotal, but I've talked with several people who are very much believing Christians, who have become so disgusted by the overt insertions of left-leaning politics into the weekly sermons at their churches that they've stopped going---they just can't take it anymore. They go to church to be enlightened and instead become filled with anger and seething (which translates into a most "un-spiritual" experience in their house of worship). They come away unfulfilled and demoralized.

it's not right to speak about empty pews in the "West". The situations are very different in Europe compared to the US.

You're right, I really should have said "churches in the US". Like I said, sorry, lack of sleep=blather.

Folks:

Those who are employed by the equivalent of the state department at the Vatican subscribe to the same leftwing political views as most of the state departments in Europe. Not to put too fine a point on it: they're idiots.

What is astonishing is how this story has unleashed a flood of innuendos and calumny about the Church in general; this ends up acheiving nothing other than the distortion of the truth.

Let me leave #7 Joel with this quote from Albert Einstein, in a way of perhaps disabusing him from the opinion that the Church was silent during the holocaust (Time, 1940):

Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...

Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

Well, gosharooties! The West is usually 'identified as Christian!' Next they'll be saying that India is 'identified as Hindu!' and much of the far East is 'identified as Buddhist!' What is the world coming to? I'm shocked---SHOCKED! I suppose they'll be giving this amazing phenomenon 24/7 coverage, like Abu-Ghraib?

/Stuff like this is the reason I'm no longer Catholic.

/Are these guys getting Saudi oil money, or something like that? I know some of them were getting oil from Saddam.

#79 -Ol' Southern Boy

I'm not that surprised, really, considering how out of touch our American bishops are. They aren't any better than the clowns in Rome.

I've got a real prize of one here where I live...Thomas ("Even though I tried to cover up killing someone during a hit and run I don't deserve jail time") O'Brien. Ok, technically he's not the bishop anymore. He should have been bounced out on his ass for the sex abuse scandal, but Rome refused to do it. They kept him in there, even though lots of locals wanted him gone, until he ran over a guy and was facing a possible jail term. Thanks a million, Judge Gertz, for letting him off easy...you're a real gem of the judiciary.

I still believe in what the Church says, for the most part. It's just that between the sex abuse, that pathetic bastard O'Brien, and what's been coming out of the Vatican over the past few months...I don't think I'm alone when I say I didn't leave the Church, the Church left me.

78 Dave Ray

As a British Jew I thank G-d everyday for flawed, obstinate and callous men like Henry VIII and Oliver Cromwell for stopping the UK from being a Catholic Country. Protestantism has its problems, left leanings and general lack of bollocks but at least in ain't the Holocaust ignoring, child sodomizing, wealth obsessed mess that is Catholicism.

Catholicism shouldn't be your target; the idiots and old men in Italy should be.

Rhetoric like yours reminds me a lot of the way the Islamonazis speak of their target du jour.

Do I detect a Schism in the church?

The Great

Schism

It's OK to tell the pontificators to blow it out their ass when they are wrong. They can't use two stones as debating tools any more.

#93 TalkinKamel

At the Vatican, the Rev. Jean Marie Benjamin — a French priest who is reported to have arranged a meeting between the pope and Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq — is listed as receiving the rights to sell 4.5 million barrels.

[Link: 209.157.64.200...]

#89 Julio Jurenito

Get a dictionary.

Oxford gives prekrashchenie ot priyoma narkotikov, which seems as good as any. Native speakers might like to offer some vernacular.

#99

Should be: prekrashchenie priyoma narkotikov

#13
I am an old Catholic school girl from way back and believe me, nothing much has changed. They simply ignore what they don't want to see. I struggle with it every day of my life. It has not been easy.
At mass on MOTHER'S DAY no mention of Kerry and his pro-abortion ways was spoken. No condemnation of the Boston church giving him communion. I can't receive communion because my husband (also a cradle Catholic) refuses to be married in the mockery that our church has become. But John Kerry and his ilk are welcome at the table. Ted the murdering slime Kennedy is welcome. I imagine bin Laden himself would be welcome!
I suppose they are old europe and slowly deteriorating anyway.
If God is watching He must be shaking His head in wonderment.
As Scrooge says-"I will retire to Bedlam."

History does not repeat itself. But, it's amazing how much you can learn from it.

My dearest brother, we do not deny to the Roman Church the primacy amongst the five sister Patriarchates; and we recognize her right to the most honourable seat at an Ecumenical Council. But she has separated herself from us by her own deeds, when through pride she assumed a monarchy which does not belong to her office . . . How shall we accept decrees from her that have been issued without consulting us and even without our knowledge? If the Roman Pontiff, seated on the lofty throne of his glory wishes to thunder at us and, so to speak, hurl his mandates at us from on high, and if he wishes to judge us and even to rule us and our Churches, not by taking counsel with us but at his own arbitrary pleasure, what kind of brotherhood, or even what kind of parenthood can this be? We should be the slaves, not the sons, of such a Church, and the Roman See would not be the pious mother of sons but a hard and imperious mistress of slaves.'

That pretty much covers it, about 1000 years ago.

Tasty Beverage,

This of course is anecdotal, but I've talked with several people who are very much believing Christians, who have become so disgusted by the overt insertions of left-leaning politics into the weekly sermons at their churches that they've stopped going---they just can't take it anymore.

You're right---

The pederasty/homosexual scandal doesn't help---nor does the fact that 40% percent of the US clergy is href="[Link: catholiccitizens.org...] target="_blank">Homosexual

Catholic doctrine has been infused with
communist Liberation Theologians
and UN sponsored "interfaithism"
---To the piont where we have witnessed JPII kissing the Koran

The Catholic Church is becoming an apostate church.

prekrashchenie ot priyoma narkotikov

That's quite a mouthful! As for the vernacular, I would try нapкo - пoxмeльe ("drug hangover") while pantomiming seizures, but then again, I'm not a native speaker.

#103 Fiery Celt
The only thing any Pope should be doing with a Koran is using its pages to clean his papal rear.

#78 Dave Ray - As an American Jew, go fuck yourself. That comment was really uncalled for.

OT -- I thought this was funny and should share it. Sean Penn, Kucinich preach troop pull-out in Portland. You just can't make this stuff up.

#104 Throbert McGee

That's quite a mouthful

The shorter and more everyday expression would, I guess, be otvykanie ot narkotikov

The scandal of prisoner abuses by U.S. soldiers in Iraq (news - web sites) has dealt a bigger blow to the United States than the Sept. 11 attacks, the Vatican (news - web sites) foreign minister told an Italian newspaper.

They said the abuse is self-effacing. What is incorrect about that?

From Vatican Radio:
The attack of the Arab militias against the ethnic group of Darfur is directed to "taking its place, as they have done in other places. They want to move the Arab race to the more fertile areas, to areas where they can pasture," the bishop explained.

In fact, "a process of Arabization is under way in Darfur," Bishop Gassis lamented. "In the South of Sudan and in the Nuba hills there is a forced process of Islamization and Arabization. They want to force the people to accept that type of Islam that they are propagating in Sudan: Muslim fundamentalism."

"And although there are many Muslims in Darfur, they are certainly not fundamentalists," he continued. "They want to attack the black race. There is an ethnic question here. In the South of Sudan and in the Nuba hills, instead, the problem is ethnic and religious. Moreover, there is also the economic aspect, that is, the desire to occupy the place of this non-Arab population."

Does it seem that it's all right for the Vatican to attack America, Israel and "Arabization" of Africa, but don't stand up for yourselves?

Still the vast mass of people — under the influence of Arab media — cannot but feel aversion and hate for the West growing inside themselves.”

#89 Julio Jurenito

Why d'ya wanna know?

#103

If there are a few bad apples you throw away the bunch, huh? You're like those people in school that get straight A's then get one B and want to kill themselves.

Native speakers might like to offer some vernacular.

Ломка, probably -- although that refers more to the symptoms than to the withdrawal itself.

#8 TMF - Why is this guy alive?

It's quite simple really...

There are Jews in the world, there are Buddhists,
there are Hindus and Mormons and then
there are those that follow Mohammed -but-
I've never been one of them.
I am a Roman Catholic
and have been since before I was born,
and the one thing they say about Catholics is
they'll take you as soon as you're warm.
You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on, you're
a Catholic the moment dad came
...Because...
Every sperm is sacred,
every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
Every sperm is sacred,
every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
Let the heathens spill theirs,
on the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
each sperm that can't be found.
Every sperm is wanted,
every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed,
in your neighborhood.
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
spill theirs just anywhere
but God loves those who treat their
semen with more care.
Every sperm is useful,
every sperm is fine.
God needs everybodies,
mine, and mine, and mine.
Let the pagans spill theirs
on mountain hill and plain.
God shall strike them down for
each sperm that's spilled in vain.

#113 Q

What's the Russian for "cold turkey"?

I think what many are overlooking is that the vatican is in koohoots with islam because it believes it will have some of Jerusalem, once islam gets it. THe vatican and islam didn't seem particularly interested in Jerusalem after Rome sacked it and rotted away over the generations... but as soon as the Jews restored their homeland, the grab for Jerusalem began. That is the ony reason why the pope kissed the koran and why he is chummy with those savages.

114-sickofitall
How is it possible that after over half a century on this planet-so much of the time Monty Python is the explanation?

You think this guy would be singing the same song had the Islamists planted a 767 in the Vatican's dome on Christmas Eve? Doubt it.

where the fuck is pope urban ll when we need him--it appears that archbishop lajolo has been on his knees in front of so many young boys that it comes as second nature when confronting islam

The NCC, the Methodist bishops and now the Pope have drawn a moral equivalency out of ken or reason.

They may as well be sawing on Berg's throat.

Linda Vester (Fox) is "sick of their threats."

It's about time someone alluded to the fact the Arab Street might be mostly certifiable.

118-They bloody shot him didn't they?
Some people take forgiveness a bit far then don't they?

"There's still a silent majority who the media will never listen to, because they all have their own anti-American agenda... "

Right on!

Oh... ...you think the MEDIA is anti-American. Damn, just when I thought you might be moving toward the real world, too...

IF you are Catholic, its YOU, inside the Church that has to change this USUAL by the Church. Sorry to say this..wish I didnt have to..would rather not..BUT...this behavior is OLD NEWS to Jews. I can say this simply..To that ORGANIZATION, The Church (not the people)...Its anyone but that Jooos. Thats how it has gone down for centures upon centures.

Unfortunately, it now extends to America and all Americans..not just the Jews..So what can I say...people.

I just cant pretend that the attitude behind the remarks arent the kind of thing WEVE noticed for Centuries..Its ONE Alpha dealing with another Alpha..each big enough to do damage to the other. When that happens ONE of em tries to dampen down the trouble...Course in this particular instance..Islam and the Large Organization of the Church...an easy way out..is ...its the Jews fault OR now...Its the Americans fault.

You can find Here a picture of the pope kissing the Kuran.

No man supposed to be a faithfull servant of the christian faith would do that.

Teacake???

THe vatican and islam didn't seem particularly interested in Jerusalem after Rome sacked it and rotted away over the generations... but as soon as the Jews restored their homeland, the grab for Jerusalem began..That is the ony reason why the pope kissed the koran and why he is chummy with those savages.

Jerusalem was a beacon for pilgramage since the beginning of Christianity---Since the beginning of the Catholic Church.
Christian holy sites, pilgramages, shrines and churches litter the Holy Land.

THe vatican and islam didn't seem particularly interested in Jerusalem after Rome sacked it and rotted away over the generations... but as soon as the Jews restored their homeland, the grab for Jerusalem began.

Uhmmm...The Crusades???

Michael Moore is a shit for brains, communist, piko fag. There, had to get that out. Feel better.

#124

Oh... ...you think the MEDIA is anti-American.

Do you think the US Media is pro-American?!?! If so, please demonstrate it. Incidentally, just because Michael Moore, Alexander Cockburn, and their ilk don't work for NBC, CBS, etc. does not mean those networks are pro-American.

The Vatican knows darned well, the dangers posed by Islam---

[Link: 213.92.16.98...]
---Is Europe a Province of Islam? The Danger is Called Dhimmitude

The old continent's pro-Islamism comes from long ago. It stems from the special protection Muslim conquerors applied to "dhimmi" Jews and Christians

[Link: 213.92.16.98...]
---Moderate” Islam – But not for Converts to the Christian Faith

---But we have a current Pope that is a Muslim appeaser-
[Link: 213.92.16.98...]
My Friend, Islam: The “Dialogue At All Costs” of Pope Wojtyla

Here are the criticisms of the pope that many cardinals and bishops have in mind, but do not make public. They’re found in a book written by a scholar of Islam who knows these criticisms well

---And a possible future Pope that would be a Muslim Appeaser--[Link: www.sedos.org...]
Cardinal Francis Arinze
Christian-Muslim Relations in the 21st Century
Talk given at the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding in Georgetown University, Washington D.C., 5 June 1997
This possible candidate for Pope is a Muslim Interfaithist Appeaser.

OT, but not very. Drivel filled hate from LLL radio...

Liberal radio is airing bad jokes and worst taste

The United States "is on the slippery slope to theocratic fascism." "The Catholic Church has been secretly encouraging oral sex for years."
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld "ought to be tortured." President Bush should be taken out and shot.

Those are a few nutso nuggets from the hosts of Air America Radio, which calls itself the new liberal voice. The fledgling network is carried in New York on WLIB, 1190 AM. With the Iraq torture scandal everywhere, I tuned in, expecting to hear sober policy analysis mixed with glee over President Bush's political pickle.

Instead, I got 10 hours of rancid venom directed at the President, Rumsfeld, Rush Limbaugh, the Catholic Church and anyone else the hosts felt like slamming. If you're a card-carrying lib who likes crude sex jokes and a cartoonish echo chamber, Air America is for you.

Take one host's linking the talk of "pulling out" the troops with the claim that "that's what the Catholic Church says about premarital sex." Ha, ha.

The network aims to give Dems a media organization to counter Limbaugh and others on the right who dominate talk radio. (What, National Public Radio and The New York Times aren't enough?)

The signing of comedian and best-selling author Al Franken gave Air America a liberal drawing card. But if his three-hour show on Monday was typical, he could sink the ship instead of saving it.

Two attempts at humor were offensive. In his "oy, oy show," set to Israeli music, a sidekick reads news reports - in this case, the murder of the Russian-backed president of Chechnya. Franken's role is to pipe up with a lighthearted "oy, oy, oy." Yep, nothing tickles the ribs like assassination.

Franken also imitated a priest giving Communion, saying "Body of Christ" when an imagined pedophile priest was in line but "not for you" when pro-choice politicians came up.

The church was a day-long obsession, as was Limbaugh. He is an "awful man," "a pig" and "a Nazi."

Color me confused. If Franken & Co. hate the pill-popping Limbaugh so much, why imitate his tarpit tone? Sounds like Limbaugh has simply driven them nuts.

Missing was the tension that comes from honest debate. Only Franken had guests voicing even slight distance from the party line, which is that John Kerry is perfect except he should attack Bush more.

The queen of venom, Randi Rhodes, followed Franken in the host slot. Her imitation of a cracker military type telling a soldier to "insert this fluorescent light bulb into that man's buttocks" was revolting. She compared U.S. prisons in Iraq to the "Nazi gulag" and said, "The day I say thank you to Rumsfeld is the same day I'll say thank you to the 12 people who raped me."

Rock bottom came when she compared Bush and his family to the Corleones in the "Godfather" saga. "Like Fredo, somebody ought to take him out fishing and phuw," she said, imitating the sound of gunfire.

During a day of torture by radio, I heard ads for Hewlett-Packard, Greyhound and, especially, General Motors. I asked GM why it appeared in such shows.

Ryndee Carney, GM's manager of marketing communications, said the ads were wrongly picked up from an earlier deal with WLIB. She said the station was ordered to "cease and desist" yesterday, and added: "GM will not advertise on any Air America affiliates

F.C - So why did the church move to rome? Pilgrims are different than vatican holdings.

This is not cutting off soldiers' heads. This is sexually abusing, raping, beating and torturing civilians and or criminals that are held without a charge. This is raping women and making 12 year old girls walk naked in front of male prisoners in a culture where such a dishonor still is punished by death.

Beheading soldiers = Brutal.
Raping and pillaging = Sick.

So your so-called enemy might be brutal and animal like. But I'd rather be an animal then be a sick human-being. For the latter is an abomination. In every religion.

The link above is:

making 12 year old girls walk naked in front of male prisoners

A representative for the Vatican? Not to worry American! The Lutheran Church will take you in.

The "torture" pictures look like a typical weekend on Campus at Chapel Hill, USC, SUNY, or Madison, Wisconsin for heavens sake!

Saying that this is a worse blow to American than 9/11 is absurd. I have to question the authenticity of the statement. I doubt that this is the position of the Catholic Church. If it is, then pedophile priests is the least of their problems.

As for Islamofacists...we now know the rules of the game...we knew where you stand...and we know what steps that we must take to eradicate islamofacism from the face of the earth, once and for all.

The gloves are coming off, and the world hasn't seen anything yet. We will march on a road of bones!

Selah!

The Good Troll (#133),

Sorry, but your link lost me at:

For Huda Shaker, the humiliation began at a checkpoint on the outskirts of Baghdad.

Since the beginning of the Catholic Church.
Christian holy sites, pilgramages, shrines and churches litter the Holy Land.

Interesting choice of verb. On my trips to Israel I've found the ubiquitous presence of Christian churches a little jarring, not only because they seem so disjointed from the life of the country but because most of them are, frankly, so unattractive. I'm all for preserving access to all of the holy sites for believers, but there ought to be a renovation movement or something.

This is Marianne Jennings in today's Jewish World Review.

I feel as if I am in a Peter Sellers movie. Let's recap political unrest in the world, all the fault of the U.S., with most of the blame resting at the feet of defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld this week. Condi Rice blame fever has passed. Whilst minding our own capitalistic business one fine day in September 2001, members of a radical faction of a Middle Eastern religion slammed planes into several of our buildings, killing about 3,000 and maiming others.

So that Halliburton could have more work, Dick Cheney could earn bonuses while serving as VP, and we could get more oil so that gas prices would climb to $2 per gallon, we took military action in Afghanistan to wipe out the boot camps and leaders of the plane-flying radicals. Bad, evil Americans, ousting the kindhearted Taliban. To compensate and make nice, we dropped food and supplies into Afghanistan. Complaints arose because the peanut butter in some of the food kits was not a Middle Eastern favorite. We apologized.

To give the Democrats some form of a platform on which to run a candidate for president who has the charisma of a ferret and obtain more oil to drive gas prices even higher, the U.S. invaded Iraq. We bombed a bit, ousted a murderous dictator, and, feeling guilty, built schools, improved the water supply, and brought electricity to areas it had never gone before. We apologized to the French and Germans for giving the contracts for rebuilding to U.S. firms.

As we rebuilt Iraq, radicals bombed cars carrying civilian engineers and then carted their charred bodies through the streets, hanging a few, for better visual effects, from a bridge. Liberals demanded a withdrawal and apology for the mess we had made. Surreal. Selleresque.

The Mouse that Roared

#135 Geepers
You got into the story itself? The Good Troll lost me as soon as I saw "The Guardian" logo at the top of the page.

I hope that the Vatican has a reasonable response for not counting the "vast mass of people" in the arab world not among those intellegent enough to see that these crimes are being dealt with properly.

Simply put, this is simply a case of people being held to lower standards than the rest of us. The only true racism that exists among educated people in this country is the racism of condesension.

Not that the Vatican is in this country, but my statement is true nonetheless.

#91

I have to agree with you. I have not attended regular Sunday church services for sometime for a similiar reason. Knowning the if I put money in the collection plate, some of it goes to the Win Without War organization. Some of it goes to the National Council of Churches so they can support Castro. Some of it goes to radical environmental organizations. My church is holding a peace camp in the Twin Cities this month. One of the events...Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. They are to watch it and then discuss (and I don't mean criticize it).

Oh, and the hate Israel. A quote on the website on a report from a trip to the Mid-East..

"And the delegation expressed solidarity with Arafat."

The Roman Emperor Constantine became the first protector of the Catholic Church.

He also authorized the codification of Christian doctrine (Through various councils and the Council of Nicaea) and the official translations and transcriptions of the Bible.

The Roman-Byzantine Period (135-638 CE)

In 135 CE the Emperor Hadrian declared a new city on the site of Jerusalem, called Colonia Aelia Capitolina. A new municipal plan was introduced which bore hardly any resemblance to the former city. Indeed the Roman influence is felt to this day: the main streets of the Old City still follow the Roman grid. The Forum,established in the city center, consisted of public buildings including a temple of Aphrodite, goddess of beauty and love. TheRoman 10th Legion was camped in the western part of town near the Citadel. Jerusalem was no longer the country's capital nor its economic center. Its religious status also declined: Jews were not permitted to enter, while Christianity was still a forbidden religion.

Constantine's assumption of power as sole ruler of the Roman Empire wrought a transformation in the status of Christianity. No longer was it an outlawed and persecuted faith; in fact, itwould soon become the Empire's official religion. These developments had a significant impact on Jerusalem. Churches were built on sites identified as sacred to Christianity,attracting large numbers of pilgrims from all corners of the Empire.

This process shaped Jerusalem both materially and spiritually. The city grew in size and population and was the focus of special attention from the authorities. Monks and clerics made Jerusalem their home; it became the main stay of Christian learning and spiritual creation.

By order of the Emperor Constantine and under the auspices of his mother, the Empress Helena the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Church of the Resurrection were built in Jerusalem. Another great church, erected on Mount Zion and known as the "Mother of Churches" -- commemorated the site of the Last Supper and the"dormition" of Mary.

In the 5th century the Empress Eudocia settled in Jerusalem, she had the city's boundary extended southward and a wall built that encompassed Mount Zion and the Siloam Pool. She also built a church at the Siloam Pool and another north of the Damascus Gate, dedicated to St. Stephen.

Jerusalem's official status within the church hierarchy was also enhanced. Coinciding with the appointment of the city's bishop, Juvenal, as Patriarch, Jerusalem was made a patriarchate, joining Rome, Constantinople, Antioch and Alexandria.

During the 6th century the Cardo (the city's main thorough fare), which begins at the Damascus Gate, was extended southward. Near its southern extremity the Emperor Justinian erected a vast church, the Nea (new church), in honor of Mary, mother of God. For contemporary Christians Jerusalem was above all else the actual site of the great events of the Scriptures, the church ofJerusalem celebrated each holiday at its historic location. The holy places became the stage on which the Biblical tales were presented as plays, with the participation of worshippers and pilgrims.

In 614 the country fell to the Persians. The conquest ofJerusalem was a bloody affair in which thousands of inhabitants were massacred. Many churches, including the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, were destroyed and others were damaged. The sacred cross upon which Jesus was crucified was looted.

Fifteen years later, in 620, the Emperor Heraclius restored Byzantine rule and returned the cross to its place. But within a decade, in 638, Jerusalem surrendered again, this time to the forces of a rising power on the stage of history -- the Muslim Arabs.

The decline and repeated conquests of Jerusalem came at the hands of Pagan Rome with the Fall of the Christian Eastern Roman Empire.

Emperor Constantine, the first Christian emperor of Rome, ordered to build a basilica on Vatican Hill. The location was symbolic: this was the place where Saint Peter, the chief apostle, was buried in 64 A.D. ...
This was how Rome became the ease for the Catholic Church

#141 Dave the Lutheran-American

And the delegation expressed solidarity with Arafat."

WHAAAT?

I was confirmed in the Lutheran church and it was about as conservative as you could get besides the Baptists.

Missouri Synod, Lutheran, tho'.

Wow, feel the hate!

I usually agree with most of the comments here , but the blatant anti-Catholicism in these comments is just sick. Not only is it sick, but most of it is off-topic anyway: ridicule of doctrine, repetitions of the old Pius XII/Holocaust slander, unoriginal child molestation jokes.

I dare any one of you to say anything negative about Judiasm. Go for it. I fucking dare you. There's plenty there, but you don't have the balls to do it. The Catholic church, of course, is fair game.

I won't do it, either. I'm an active Catholic who observes Jewish holidays (although casually) because my faith came directly from Judiasm. I'd probably have a "my boss is a Jewish carpenter" sticker on my car if I didn't mind sticking stuff to my car. I'm a big supporter of Israel. So you assholes can take your Catholic anti-semitism slander and shove it up your ass.

But anyway, this Cardinal is an asshat. There's no doubt about that. But he doesn't speak for me, and he doesn't even speak for the Pope. His statement isn't an official policy statement, anyway. Think of him as the Vatican's Ted Kennedy: an obnoxious, America-hating blowhard. You'd never condemn all of America, all of the Senate, or even all of the Democrats, for Ted Kennedy's statements. Don't condemn the whole faith for the statements of this dickhead.

When you're the biggest institution in the world, and you're run by european leftists (redundant, I know), you're bound to have your share of problems. I thank God every day that he preserves His church despite the bungling of its officials.

Those of you who say that JPII is blowing a chance to fight Islam's rise in Europe are just wrong. Yeah, I agree, he could do more. But he has repeatedly tried to work language into the EU Constitution stressing the importance of Christianity to Europe's past and future. The radical secularists (of whom there are many here) won't stand for that, though.

But most of you are simply ignorant. The more observant and tradional a Catholic is, the more likely he is to stand squarely with Israel and the US in the war against terrorism. Traditional, non-squishy Catholics deplore this kind of stupidity, and yet many people here want to paint all Catholics with a very dirty brush.

If you want to see what traditional catholics think about the war on terror, check out [Link: www.crisismagazine.com,...] [Link: www.firstthings.com,...] [Link: amywelborn.typepad.com...] [Link: www.relapsedcatholic.com,...] [Link: www.thrownback.blogspot.com,...] [Link: www.professorbainbridge.com,...] [Link: eve-tushnet.blogspot.com,...] [Link: www.splendoroftruth.com...] and [Link: donjim.blogspot.com...] What you find will surprise you.

And that goes double for you anti-religion, and anti-every-religion-except-judiasm douchebags.

Articles about the Catholic Church's current view of the intifada and the "Jewish occupation of Palestine".

The patriarch stated that he is in favour of a Palestinian state that will "have the stability that allows it to reorganize its own affairs, external and internal." As regards Jerusalem, Patriarch Sabbah said it should be the capital of two states, Palestinian and Israeli, but, above all, it should remain the Holy City, protected and respected by its own governors and the whole international community (Zenit, Oct 4/01).

The "City of the United Nations"

But he doesn't speak for me, and he doesn't even speak for the Pope.

Don't look now, but he's the VATICAN FOREIGN MINISTER. Yes, he speaks for the Pope.

Fuck the Pope. How many divisions does he have anyway?
Stuff like this, not to mention the Baltimore Catechism, have made me a proud ex-Catholic.

#143

ELCA (I may join the Missouri Synod).

Under the current leadership, the ELCA has gotten very liberal. Most members are clueless about this. You have to play around on the website and it's links.

That's what's frustrating. Many individual congergations are pretty conservative and have no idea what's been done in their name. Much Israel bashing.

(#133), The Good Troll

My attention span is shorter than G's. I was lost at For Huda Shaker.

zzz

Think of him as the Vatican's Ted Kennedy

How about we think of him as the Vatican foreign minister?

I dare any one of you to say anything negative about Judiasm. Go for it. I fucking dare you. There's plenty there, but you don't have the balls to do it.

How's about you get the ball rolling for us?

Ben-Ami (#146):

It's just not that simple. Statements by titular Vatican ministers don't necessarily mean anything. Example:

[Link: www.catholicnews.com...]

When the Pope comes out with an "official" position, he says it himself.

Thom #150

Read the next line, asshat.

AK (#144)

I'm a big supporter of Israel. So you assholes can take your Catholic anti-semitism slander and shove it up your ass.

Are all the comments that offend you being made by Jews?

re #144, AK.

Amen to that. Thanks for the great post.

One thing I'd add is that faithful Catholics like us are CONSTANTLY FIGHTING AGAINST THE EURO-WEENIE, ANTI-AMERICA VATICAN BUREAUCRATS.

We're fighting against them, just as we fight against the liberal asshats here in America. I hope people can remember that.

Fiery Celt - the name says it all, my problem with the Catholic faith apart from its complicity in the Holocaust is people like you. From an purely British perspective I'm glad I dont live in a Catholic country because the UK is surrounded by the Irish, Spanish and Italians...all grasping hands in the EU honeypot without any hard work or guts when it comes to getting things done...remember in world war 2, two of these countries were fascist and the 'jolly' loveable Irish were neutral. If it wasnt for the brave volunteers that joined the British Army, then Ireland wouldve been painted with the same brush as the Spanish...neutral yet brown-nosing Hitler (the IRA did compile lists of Jews living in the Republic).

David Simons - My comments were called for...Catholicisms heart is the Vatican...and there is something rotten there...fix it now and act like a real religion and fight Islamofascists. We dont want a repeat of the last time humanity needed them.

#125

Yes. Blasphemy. I was shocked when I saw that.

But the Vatican and the Moslem mullahs made common cause at the International Conference on Population and Development in Cairo in 1994. They strategized, blocked women's rights issues, got in bed together on anti-birth control moves, etc.

They were the only two major blocks to women's rights in the conference. Sickening.

Charles Krauthammer made a good point: one taproot of all this is the battle over how my half of humanity (women) will be treated by the other half.

You mean:

The Catholic church, of course, is fair game.

?

Odd that. On a thread devoted to a statement made by the Vatican foreign minister!

But I was really hoping that you would demonstrate the testicular fortitude that you accused us of lacking:

I dare any one of you to say anything negative about Judiasm. Go for it. I fucking dare you. There's plenty there, but you don't have the balls to do it.

Where, O where, are your balls?!

Here let me get you started: I don't like gefilte fish.

Oops. That was for #152 AK.

#132 The Good Troll -

But I'd rather be an animal than be a sick human-being.

There's no need to choose - you are both.

#156

Are you seriously trying to equate the way Catholics treat women with the way Muslims treat women?

You can't be serious.

Oh, wait, I get it - by "women's rights" you mean "abortion on demand, up until the day of birth"

Okay, all clear now. Got it.

#129 fiery Celt

Thanks for these articles: sounds like there is hope for your church after the current pope joins the choir invisible. And I don't mean that in a mean way. It's good to hear that some of the clergy in the Vatican recognize the danger.

AK

Statements by titular Vatican ministers don't necessarily mean anything.

Sorry, but a supposed quote relayed through a secretary cited by a film producer does not equal an interview with the Vatican foreign minister in a leading newspaper. If statements by the foreign minister (that would be Colin Powell's job, were he a cardinal, you know) mean nothing, then it's time for the Vatican to stop pretending that it's a soveriegn country, time for the Pope to stop pretending that he's a head of state, time to do a mutual recall of ambassadors to the Vatican and papal nuncios, and get down to the business of just being another religion. Because otherwise it's annoying to serious-minded folk.

#162 Ben-ami

LOL. Good one.

AK

but the blatant anti-Catholicism in these comments is just sick. Not only is it sick, but most of it is off-topic anyway: ridicule of doctrine, repetitions of the old Pius XII/Holocaust slander, unoriginal child molestation jokes.

I know what you mean---There are a few virulent anti-Christan and anti-Catholics on LGF...

However, Most LGFers are not---

But this naked venomous hatred directed at Catholics and our faith, make it impossible to recommend LGF as a source of info, on the WoT, to any of my Christian friends.
Heck, I'm even reluctant to suggest this site to my Jewish friends for that same reason---This, despite all the timely and informed postings by Charles and other Lgfers.

O/T
My family is attending our first Bat Mitzvah this weekend---
We've been to a few Bar Mitzvahs, ...but I don't know an appropriate present to bring a girl?
My 12 year old "tomboy" daughter suggested a baseball bat.

113 Q 5/12/2004 10:25AM PST Native speakers might like to offer some vernacular.
Ломка, probably -- although that refers more to the symptoms than to the withdrawal itself.

Thanks. This is better than nothing.

#117 mrsoc - How is it possible that after over half a century on this planet-so much of the time Monty Python is the explanation?

I dunno. I guess those Python blokes have an awfully good understanding of the meaning of life.

I'm not going to get into or between the furniture that's about to be chucked by AK and alot of other people here but I do want to point out something.

One of the sources AK cited is a mag named First Things. I cannot recommend it highly enough.
Last winter they published an article by a priest stationed in the Vatican (who had been born a Jew) on just what the Church did and did not do during WWII.

It was honest and unflinching, specifically with regard to the Jews of Europe.

And I was completely surprised.

It really is an excellent pub - and I'm no longer a Christian even...

My family is attending our first Bat Mitzvah this weekend---
We've been to a few Bar Mitzvahs, ...but I don't know an appropriate present to bring a girl?
My 12 year old "tomboy" daughter suggested a baseball bat.

Hhmmm, would the bat mitzvah girl like a baseball bat? Maybe a gift certificate would be better. I'm terrible at figuring out gifts, though.

You might want to check to see if she's doing some sort of service project for her bat mitzvah and make a donation to that.

#155 Dave Ray -

We dont want a repeat of the last time humanity needed them.

Does that include all the Polish Roman Catholics that risked their lives to hide Jews?

If our roles were reversed, would you do the same for them?

#160.

No.

I mean opposing use of condoms in Africa, where AIDS is killing millions.

I mean opposing the funding of neonatal care and ob-gyn care because the folks at the clinic might mention, not provide, abortion.

Abortion was not on the conference agenda IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, FORM, OR TRIMESTER AT ALL.

Do your homework.

Julio Jurenito (#89),

You better see this from militarybrat:

I did call my husband and ask him.

He said that the phrase "prekrashchenie priyoma narkotikov " has nothing to do with opiate withdrawel, but is rather referring to a good drug experience.

You Wouldn't want to get that mixed up I would think.

LGF: Arguing Russian on two threads.

#160 AK

Oh, wait, I get it - by "women's rights" you mean "abortion on demand, up until the day of birth"

No, I believe she mentioned "birth control" specifically.

That particular position is responsible for untold misery. It represents dogma over humanity, or you might say it is psuedo-humanity.

I say that having been born, baptised and confirmed Catholic. I generally like JPII, although the reality of the world has not made it to Rome in many instances.

We all take our lumps, some of them more deservedly than others.

169 David Simon

"them" being the Vatican and the Faith...humanity and compassion can be found in anyone. Im eternally grateful of the Poles, catholic or whatever...without their help my family would probably have never escaped to Britain. You cannot deny however the Vaticans complicity in the Holocaust, or by the sound of the statement coming from there now its complete ignorance to the real world.

PS yes I would've done the same, it seems easy to say I know but my faith and heart tell me that I would.

Ah, I found the link

The Holocaust: What was not said

#170, 172

I always find the argument that says "the Catholic church teaches that condom use is wrong, so it is responsible for the spread of AIDS."

I'd like either of you to explain to me how anyone following Catholic teaching on sex could ever contract HIV.

No anal sex. No premarital sex. No extramarital sex. No prostitution.

You're asking us to believe that someone will pay a hooker to have anal sex with her behind his wife's back, but before he does so, he'll say "wait, the Church teaches that condoms are wrong. I'd better not use one when I cheat on my wife by plowing this whore in the ass."

I'm done with this off topic stuff. You guys can have the last word.

#176 AK

Oh well.

re #175, gryp

Here's an article that discusses the link you posted. The Church's history was a mixed bag, to be sure, since it is made up of men and men can sin anytime. But it wasn't actively engaged in evil, and there are serious instances of good. I hope people can realize that.

[Link: www.catholic.org...]

That's the link. It's a Jan 2004 article.

I reiterate: faithful, orthodox, practicing Catholics like me and many others are trying to do our best to rid the Church of euro-weenie, post-modern, world-be-heretics and apologists for bad behavior.

AK, to be fair, there are non-sexual methods of contracting the virus, e.g., blood transfusions, organ transplants, etc.

In those cases, is a married couple, one of whom has become infected, permitted to use condoms?

I don't know, that's why I ask.

Ah, yes,

Outreach is to love thy neighbor, love thy enemy, love that jihadist in the bush, love this ephebe, love thy tyke; sort of an endless ex cathedra lap dance.

I'd like either of you to explain to me how anyone following Catholic teaching on sex could ever contract HIV.

No anal sex. No premarital sex. No extramarital sex. No prostitution.

And, presumably, no child molestation or rape, and yet it would seem to happen - even among people who are supposedly enforcing the Catholic teaching on sex. People are not necessarily rational or consistent when it comes to either sex or religion.

Of course, I suppose that even a faithful Catholic could still get HIV from blood products. Or have it passed to him prenatally. Don't you think? Or have it given to her by a philandering husband. Just maybe?

The real point, I think, is that the RCC doesn't just tell its members not to use condoms - it uses its political clout to oppose the distribution of condoms, period.

I'm done with this off topic stuff. You guys can have the last word.

Cool.

happycynic (#13): "When did the Vatican develop this dhimmi attitude vis a vis Islam?"

At least since JPII became Pope. JPII has been seeking ecumenical relationships with Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. (but not with Evangelical Protestants). In addition, the Vatican is trying desparately to avoid a "clash of civilizations," a clash that it doesn't know already exists.

Cato the Elder (#30) and Will (#57): Right on!

JAG (#73): "Unless there is truly divine intervention with some new leadership I don't see how Catholicism will survive among followers who can discern right from wrong."

JAG, it won't. Trust me.

Given this type of rhetoric coming from Rome, the Bush Administration should include the Vatican on the list of nations that support terrorism. Such remarks do nothing but give aid and comfort to the jihadist enemies of Western Civilizaition.

Leah, if you want to see what one Catholic is trying to do about this garbage, then do the following:

1. Go to the Front Page Magazine Web site (www.frontpagemag.com), type "Joseph D'Hippolito" in the search engine and click on a piece I wrote in January entitled, "The Vatican's Pro-Saddam Tilt?"

2. Do a Google search of "Joseph D'Hippolito" and "Catholic moral confusion" simultaneously, and you should come up with an op-ed I wrote for the Jerusalem Post last month on the subject.

#178 Sydney Carlton

Hi Sydney, thanks very much. It's bookmarked and I'm off to read in a moment.

Well, in terms of Christian sects that get the PR crap kicked out of them, I don't know whether it's worse to be Evangelical or Catholic.

I wish you and yours luck. It has been obvious to everyone on the U.S. side of the pond that it has been the laity that was true to the body of Christ, not the priesthood, during the paedophilia nightmare.

Best, thanks for the link.

(Hey, have you run into postmodern 4ever, today? I haven't get my butt-kicking fix today. Heh.)

#92 Cy

Let me leave #7 Joel with this quote from Albert Einstein, in a way of perhaps disabusing him from the opinion that the Church was silent during the holocaust (Time, 1940):

Do we know just which Church Dr. Einstein was referring to? Bonhoeffer stood up to the Nazis, for example, but he was no Catholic.

good point Ben-Ami, could it have been the Lutherans? Let's face it it could have been any church...its just the Catholic Church isnt the one that springs into my mind first.

grayp

Thanx- Lotz

I've got to go now, so I'll read it later... I appreciate it.

AK,

The problem is that there is no middle ground.

Proponents of birth control, sexual freedom, multiculturalism and abortion, refuse to consider the teaching and encouragement of monogamy, and sexual abstinence as viable , effective alternative to preventing pregnancies and STD. Both withing and outside the United States.

Meanwhile AIDS transmission rates have increased throughout Africa because of condom use. The encouragement and provision of condoms have resulted in increased promiscuity Condom useage does not effectively prevent transmission of the disease.---
Condoms tend to fail up to 20 percent of the time.

[Link: www.newsmax.com...]
[Link: www.zongoo.com...]

If people did not have multiple sex partners, epidemics would not develop or, once developed, be sustained." He continued, "over a lifetime, it is the number of sexual partners [that matter]…condom levels are found to be non-determining of HIV infection levels."

#132 Troll

Please, leave the animals out of this.

You are just a bad person. Deal with it.

I've been lurking for a while watching this thread develop, but it is really getting ugly.

I'd like to remind that there were quite a lot of Catholics that stood up to the Nazis, along with Protestants, Jews, etc. They wore US military uniforms!

I'd also like to point out that those making the comments about child abuse sound just like those people I heard on CNN earlier this week acusing the US military and leadership of the misdeeds of a few in Abu Ghraib. Because of the trustful nature of many Christians, the church has always been a magnet for those who seek to use that trust to abuse and take advantage of others. However, they are a very small minority of the overall population. You're a smart group, find out how many Catholic priests have been found guilty of wrong doing and then divide that number by the total number of Catholic priests in the world. I have a feeling you will find that it is a very, very small fraction.

I too have left churches because the leadership was corrupt, not "doers of the Word, but hearers only". But I have also found many churches that are a blessing to everyone who comes into contact with them.

Now let's focus on those that are producing the "bad fruit"!

Similar tripe appears in today's Washington Post.

Not in the Front Page. Not in the Editorials or Op-Ed. Not in the Metro section. Not in the Style section.

But in the BUSINESS section, fer cryin' out loud.

These idiots are desperate.

Beagle -

Note that the Troll implies that murder is not forbidden in all religions, and that it's perfectly OK with him.

BTW;

For the record. I am for the use of condoms---however I believe that abstinence needs to be taught and encouraged, not only in the church, but ingrained on societal level.

But that won't happen because there are too many groups and organizations with an opposite agenda, which seek to encourage promiscuity, and non-judgemental attitudes toward sexual behavior.

My husband and I are Catholic. I was so excited to hear out priest tell us a great story about his best friend, a jewish rabbi, last Sunday.

We are staunch supporters of Israel. We have even planned on buying portable air conditioners for out attic (we live in south Louisiana) should we ever have to protect/hide any jewish people.

Sometimes, I really think our priest roles his eyes any time the Vatican opens its mouth.

A Catholic, a Jew, and a Protestant walk into a bar together.

The bartender says:

"What is this, a joke?"

{ba-dum-ching}

We are staunch supporters of Israel. We have even planned on buying portable air conditioners for out attic (we live in south Louisiana) should we ever have to protect/hide any jewish people.

That's touching, but do you seriously think that you'll have to? Is south LA a hotbed of anti-semitism and potential pogroms?

#144 AK

I dare any one of you to say anything negative about Judiasm. Go for it. I fucking dare you. There's plenty there, but you don't have the balls to do it. The Catholic church, of course, is fair game.

That show with Fran Drescher, sucked. Her voice is annoying. But, she is hot. Streisand, freaking moron. Sharon, fat. Many Jews in Israel, defeatist yet self-absorbed. That's a bad combination. The beards and dreadlocks, doesn't work for everyone. I could go on, but I think you are just steamed that Roman Catholicism is taking a justifiable beating in the news.

#193 B a

Well, it was David Duke country ...
:-)

#192 Frank IBC

LOL. Wasn't one of them carrying a monkey or something???

#179 Gray -

No. According to The Church, all sex acts must be open to the transmission of new life.

Uh..."new life" in this case meaning "children", not "diseases".

If you are Catholic...fine. Just know that if you are Catholic AND you are Pro Israel..***really Pro Israel (meaning that Israel is THE Jewish State and always has been and always will be) you have to face the fact that your Organizational Relgion is NOT AS Pro Israel as you are. Not by a long shot..And never was...and isnt Pro American either...Thats the truth of the matter..without endless parsity parsing around on who said what..and when they said it..and it was "only one person"...There a PATTERN here for all to see. Its honestly too late now to pretend anymore.

Its YOUR responibility, individual Catholics, to make your wishes on this subject known inside of your own Church. (I dont think this is asking too much) IF you support the Churches position you are NOT supporting and Free, Safe, and Independant forever Democratic Israel.

There will be NO International Jerusalem (favored by the Church)followed by an International "One State" Israel...ie this means Jews are to be there in Israel but really only to hand out parking tickets and take out the trash...Israel is supposedly going to belong to EVERYONE...

An International or DeJudiazed Israel will happen people when AMERICA is Internationalized(just so you understand how outrageous these "plans" are) as well. Think THAT would happen? I DONT...THINK>>SO.

#179 Frank IBC

No. According to The Church, all sex acts must be open to the transmission of new life.

Then must a married couple abstain and forget their sex lives forever?

Then must a married couple abstain and forget their sex lives forever?

I thought that was the norm...

grayp -

According to current Church doctrine, yes. :(

#144

I dare any one of you to say anything negative about Judiasm. Go for it. I fucking dare you. There's plenty there, but you don't have the balls to do it. The Catholic church, of course, is fair game.

Jewish mothers try to kill their children by serving them too much food. Try saying no to them. I do not like Woody Allen humor.

But Pope John Paul II went to Syria and received the Elder of Zion from that wonderful humanitarian Assad and Arafat visited JP II in mid eighties.

Re #198, Leah,

Every day I argue with my fellow Catholics who really don't seem to have much sympathy for America or Israel. They can be completly shameless sometimes. I don't know if we're winning this fight. The problem with this sort of internal fight is that these people continuously say "yes, but." They ALWAYS say that. "Yes, America should go after the terrorists, BUT..." I hear it all the time. Usually, their "but" arguments are "we shouldn't become like the terrorists" or "we should be careful to proceed cautiously" or "we should be aware that we're just as prone to evil as they are." Yadda yadda yadda...

Frankly, I'm getting tired of it. We all understand the "But" argument. No one disputes that as humans we're all fallable. But damnit, I think it's time that my fellow Catholics express some fricking support for America, and for Israel - the last hopes of Civilization and freedom.

I'm not even going to get into the truly deluded. There are some real pacifists in the Church who forget that the Crusades were defensive wars against Islam and that several were called by the Popes themselves. The pacifists in the Church today have no use for such history. It maddens me to no end trying to rationally argue with these people.

Then, there are the paleo-con Catholics, that think Bush is in the control of the neoconservatives. That argument makes me sick to no end, because its just another nutcase conspiracy theory all over again. These people are just as nuts as the left-wing ANSWER bastards.

Sometimes I wonder if the segments of the Catholic populace I deal with really represent the mass of the faithful. I really don't know. And I have no idea if it represents the hierarchy at all.

No, south Louisiana is not a hotbed for anti-semitism. People here seem to be more pro-Israel than most. We are very highly Catholic and Baptist in religion. I suppose in our minds its a way that we could help. Being Catholic and living out in the country we could take in people from other places, if they needed it. Crazy idea - I know!

When I once asked on this website how I could help Israel, I was told to go vacation there. We are trying to go in 2005. I'm pregnant and can't go this summer.

#144 AK

You did not even have to "double dog dare" me.

That one baffles me. You'd think I'd know, but I don't.

Ben-Ami -

Channeling The Ropers from Three's Company? :)

#200 Ben-ami

I thought that was the norm...

Who is norm?

;-)

In an interview published Wednesday in the Rome daily La Repubblica, Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo described the abuses as “a tragic episode in the relationship with Islam” and said the scandal would fuel hatred for the West and for Christianity.

Hello! Your Grace?

They already DO hate us.

I'm a Catholic too, so kindly stop embarrassing me .

Caption for that photo:

"Moo-ham-head ain't dead, he just smells funny."

#209

If religion is gambling, da popa is backing the wrong horse.

The Great Schism is a bit too apposite to this entire deal. Spoooky.

People who are complaining about "anti-Catholic" comments on this page are forgetting an important distinction: the Vatican is a NATION, with a flag, 108 acres of land mass and borders. It is not just another little denomination, like Baptists or Methodists. The United States sends an Ambassador, one James Nicholson, to the Vatican, for pete sakes. (I'd love to know what that little operation costs in our tax dollars.)

Like other nations with interests and ideologies to protect, the Vaticrats play hardball in the political arena. When it suits them, they talk up the spirituality stuff, but they care about their worldly influence very much.

So criticizing the Vatican is really not that much different from talking down France, for example, and I will continue to do so.

#209 Clutch -

Actually he looks like he's blowing his nose.

Sidney: No one outside the Church can tell the Church what they should do. Only the people that make UP the Church can tell the Stuctural People of the Church what their policies should be.

If your specific Church (this is any Church Denomination now that has a active and effective Foreign Policy (this is with Ambassadors and ALL that Diplomatic Personel)approach to the world..it seems to me its YOU that has to match your Foreign Policy with THEIRS (the Organized Political Part of the Church) OR if that Foreign Policy isnt what YOU want..you have to make them (I have no idea how...) match YOUR objectives.

If they are supporting stuff YOU dont want done in the world..dont put the money in the POT every single Sunday. (like one of our posters just said) Dont PAY for attitudes and behaviors you feel are NOT RIGHT.

I know what you mean about the BUT...BUT this and But that...its a way to get out of holding the right values and being on the right side..or doing ANYTHING..

Doing nothin or trying to pretend you dont see what you SEE...translates in the Arab World as.."they are afraid of us"...and you know what THAT leads to. It leads to 9/11. We kept trying and TRYING to say this..No one would listen and they STILL arent listening.

Bye bye lgf. I have been most enjoying this site for some months now but this thread and comments have so sickened me that I am gone.

So much hatred.

Bye bye.

what hatred? If you cant stand criticism you won't be missed. Some of us can stand back and discuss issues without resorting to the equivelent of having a childish strop, picking up your ball and going home...

Leah,

I honestly don't know if the Vatican has a "foreign policy," but I intend to find out. I think that it may be an independent country only as a historical relic. I think it has ambassadors because many countries have Catholics that listen to the Vatican and various countries want to persuade the Vatican of their policies that might impact world affairs. But I'm going to find out about this for certain.

Even still, as laymen I have little influence in the hierarchy. It was trouble enough to get the bishops to discuss the child abuse situation. This is more difficult.

#173 Dave Ray -

You cannot deny however the Vaticans complicity in the Holocaust

I won't argue with you there Dave. Go back and read your initial post. You slammed an entire religion.

I agree that some of the shit that comes out of the Vatican is shameful. But I know there are plenty of observant Catholics who don't buy into it.

#216 Sydney Carton

I honestly don't know if the Vatican has a "foreign policy," but I intend to find out.

This might help you to start

Foreign Relations of the Vatican City

Gerard Serafin -

It's only when your ox gets gored that you get upset?

#208 Ms. Heather -

Your Grace

{channeling Monty Python}

"I'm not 'Your Grace', I'm 'Your Elsie'."

"What a terrible joke!!"

"But it's my only line!!! {sobs}

I think you all are missing the real point here.

It is always worse to sin than to be sinned against.

That's it in a nutshell.

Is that so hard to understand?

217 David Simon

I slammed an entire religion, yes. Islam slam the entire Jewish faith, Catholicism slams Protestantism, Communists slam Capitalists, Smiths fans slam Morrisey's solo career, Brits slam the French, my mate slams my support of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club...in all these condemnations there are bound to be decent people involved...

My point with the Catholic faith is that the Vatican is at the heart of it. The Vatican has a rotten core...but the paedophile priests are worldwide, the anti-semites are world wide, the good the bad and the ugly are all out there...

My original post simply said that I was glad I lived in a protestant country as Jew and as a British citizen. I still stand by that.

I am amazed at the anti-catholic bile from this site. I usually agree with most of the comments but many of you today are truly surprising. He never missed a chance to bash catholics jews and blacks. You remind me of a klansman I met in the USMC in 1967. My Catholic friend nearly beat him to death with a pipe. He deserved it. Good day to you.

#223 -

I refer you to my previous post, in #219.

#222

Well, I guess if there's already a lot of bigotry around, your own contributions are no biggy, right?

As for your rather distorted view of our nation: there are more church-going Catholics in Britain than there are Anglicans. Admittedly, discriminatory legislation like the Act of Settlement ensures those uppity Papists will never get too close to the reins of power, but you're deluding yourself if you think Britain is a Protestant country. The way things are at the moment, "Islamic mission territory" would be a more accurate description.

Rumsfeld wanted Iraqi prisoners abused. And he planned for low level guards and interrogators to take the fall if it became public.

Read the analysis, [Link: www.collectiveinterest.net...]

#179, I'm not a catholic, and don't ever... ever plan on being one, but I want to say this in defense of the church. The likelihood of contracting AIDS through non-sexual methods is low, possibly higher in third-world countries, but still low. The idea that IV-contracted AIDS exists is a myth. If you follow the catholic church in regards to sex, your chances of getting AIDS is close to none. Though I personally think that the condom use doctrine is wrong, and stupid, the doctrine is reasonable, and just because the Church isn't "progressive" enough to hand out condoms in jr-high, doesn't mean that they should be blamed for the AIDS epidemic in Africa and other places.

#226 Carl Nyberg

FOAD

A guy goes into confession and says to the priest, "Father, I'm 80 years old, married, have four kids and 11 grandchildren. Last night I made love to two 18 year old girls. Twice, in fact."

The priest said: "Well, my son, when was the last time you were in confession?"

"Never Father, I'm Jewish."

"So then, why are you telling me?"

"I'm telling everybody."

[Link: www.ssc.wisc.edu...]

yes there is a lot of bigotry around, and im not angelic enough to claim I have none, as for the Islamic Missionary Territory snipe...FOAD...the same way Britain has resisted being controlled by Rome (thank G-d), the same way the majority of the public are against the EU is the same way we'll get fed up of the islamonazi's.

Britain is a protestant country, the head of state is the Queen and she is the head of which church??? Not the one controlled by a senile, inferm pope from Rome mate...if you think Britain isnt a protestant country your not only deluded you are incredibly stupid.

#171 Geepers

I did call my husband and ask him.

He said that the phrase "prekrashchenie priyoma narkotikov " has nothing to do with opiate withdrawel, but is rather referring to a good drug experience.

Um, "prekrashchenie priyoma narkotikov" just means, literally, "stopping taking drugs", so I don't see the possibility for mix-up there - it can be interpreted in the same sense as the English phrase.

"Otvykanie ot narkotikov" means "withdrawal from drugs".

You are adding to the confusion unnecessarily, Geepers.

halldor (#115):

What's the Russian for "cold turkey"?

Um, kholodnaya indeyka? Well, that's a literal translation. Not sure what the actual corresponding term is -- guess i'm not that familar with Russian drug culture.

Charles, in a way the statement is true. America has always been known as the first and last beacon of liberty. Sure there has been debate on the subject of America truly being 'a land of opportunity' and 'an example for the rest of the world' - A jealous Europe did everything it could to regain its importance in the world and undermine America. The former Soviet Union posed the biggest physical and political threat (until now) by ideology and weaponry. And America prevailed - proved itself of the hypotheticals, of all the tests, the US endured. But now, we are not that the new innocent country on the map. We have done harm, and its not a theory or a pundit or hearsay by a veteran, its there for everyone to see. Americans in 2004 abusing prisoners of war. After all the lessons of WW2, after all Bush's sanctimony about the 'civilized world'. It gives them more than just talk, which is all it was before.

#232 Q

"Kholodnaya indeyka" sounds great. :-)

But it won't do as a translation of "cold turkey" in the drugs withdrawal sense, I guess.

There is a Russian slang phrase for this - I know there is - but can't recall it now.

Anyone?

Geepers (#171):

Not to call militarybrat's husband's expertise into question, but prekrashchenie priyoma narkotikov is literally translated as "cessation of drug intake".

My guess would be that he somehow got confused prekrashchenie ("cessation", noun) and prekrasnyi ("beautiful", adj.).

Russian is a crazy language ;-)

halldor #232:

Cross-post :-)

#230

You sure you're Jewish? Didn't know Ian Paisley had converted. Trashing Pope John Paul II for being "senile" (he isn't - try looking up Parkinson's in a dictionary) and "inferm" [sic] is rather pathetic. If your posts on this thread are anything to go by, that old man in Rome could outthink you with his brain tied behind his back.

Still, please do continue ranting and raving about the evil Papist puppetmasters in Rome. As far as theatre of the perverse goes, this is pretty damn funny. Just don't complain when the mullahs start holding you up as an example to all useful idiots everywhere.

#235 Q

prekrashchenie priyoma narkotikov is literally translated as "cessation of drug intake".

Khoroshii, tochnyi perevod! :-) Better than mine.

My guess would be that he somehow got confused prekrashchenie ("cessation", noun) and prekrasnyi ("beautiful", adj.).

If he's Russian, I wonder how this is possible...

Then must a married couple abstain and forget their sex lives forever?

Can only speak for myself, but if screwing my wife might kill her, I'd have to sacrafice getting my rocks off

Dave Simon;

I won't argue with you there Dave. Go back and read your initial post. You slammed an entire religion.

Dave Ray not only slammed the entire region---He imolied the a personal admiration of massacres and genocidal tactics used against the practioners of the Catholic Faith.

...Cromwell is his hero---

#214 Gerard Serafin

{sniffle}

Goodbye, cruel world!

[Link: www.markshea.blogspot.com...]

Tiny URL:
[Link: tinyurl.com...]

Something to consider (from Mark Shea's blog, posted today 5/12/04):

Okay. One last one...

People. We have to get used to the fact that life is unfair. In 1914, one of the great nations of Europe suffered a devastating terrorist attack. The Archduke Ferdinand and his *pregnant* wife were shot dead by Serbs. This great nation had every right to retaliate. It was an outrage. Who would dare to say that these monsters who would shoot a pregnant woman in the stomach had a right to continue using up oxygen?

Guess what? By the end of the war, nobody much cared for Germany's and Austro-Hungary's outrage at the terrorist assault they suffered. A lot of historical water passed under the bridge and the opponents of these states decided, not that terrorism was just swell, but that they didn't much care for Germany and Austro-Hungary anyway. What was remembered by the Allies was not the atrocity at Sarajevo, but the atrocities of the Germans. That's life outside the Garden.

In the thread below, people are spilling a great deal of ASCII to scream at a Vatican official who is, like it or not, pointing out the obvious fact that if you want to win a war then it's a bad idea to permit your troops to sow grave doubts about you in the minds of your citizens, to galvanize the resolve of your enemies, and to shock and repel your friends. Scream how we may about the atrocity of 9/11 (and it was an atrocity), the fact remains that if people forget 9/11 and remember Abu Ghraib, then it is simply stating a fact to say that Abu Ghraib is a far worse blow to us than 9/11.

This is as much a war to win Muslim hearts and minds as it is to defeat terrorist fanatics. If we simply throw up our hands, declare all Muslims an indiscriminate mass of murderous fanatics and abandon any hope of turning Muslims against the radicals in their midst, then we are fools who will not long be able to stand. If we remember that the central story of history is not about the US, but about the progress of the gospel, then we can get on with the real task, which is bringing the gospel to Islam and (I hope, but have no promises) possibly pacifying a very dangerous force for evil in the world.
posted by Mark Shea at 12:48 PM

***

I think this blogger has a point, don't you think?

If anyone disagree with him, could you please discuss why?

halldor (#238):

If he's Russian, I wonder how this is possible...

Maybe he's not...

I caught up with this thread pretty late, so I won't post anything here, most of it's been said, especially in the posts by people who agree with so much that's written here. I think I have to take a long break from visiting this site after reading so much anti-Catholic hatred. I feel as if I've been sitting in around the local tavern, chatting, listening to people express opinions, discussing the news of the day, and suddenly the patrons of the tavern stand up and express bigotries toward my religion which I hadn't guessed at. I can't drink in this bar anymore.

#98 Thom

Sad to say, I am not shocked by this.

#126 Firey Celt

Great link to the history of the Crusades!

#144 AK

"And that goes double for you anti-religion, and anti-every-religion-except-judiasm douchebags".

Referring to people as "douchebags" is not a good way to defend one's own faith, no matter how good or true this faith may be.

Actually, it's not good at all, period.

P.S. I'm a Christian.

Brenda,

.”...

People who are complaining about "anti-Catholic" comments on this page are forgetting an important distinction: the Vatican is a NATION, with a flag, 108 acres of land mass and borders.

The Vatican and it's contents are no longer owned by the Catholic Church or the Catholic Faithful---
It is owned, controlled and administered by the United Nations (UNESCO)[Link: whc.unesco.org...] as a "World Heritage site.
[Link: www.worldheritagesite.org...]

Catholics no more own the Vatican,
[Link: www.truecatholic.org...]
than do the citizens of the United States own our National Parks...
[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]
[Link: www.factmonster.com...]
[Link: sovereignty.freedom.org...]
Who Really Owns Our Biosphere's and World Heritage Sites?
[Link: www.libertymatters.org...]
The Globalization of United States Domestic Land Use Policy
[Link: usa-the-republic.com...]

.”...

"The Holy See signed on October 7, 1982, turning over the entire site of the Vatican to UNESCO control. That means that if the Vatican wanted to destroy the pagan artifacts it has in its art collection, or re-cover the nudes painted by Michelangelo in the Sistine Chapel, it cannot, as these are now world properties, to be protected in perpetuity...

#246 TalkinKamel

I'm just wondering where the money allocated to the French priest wound up - maybe to the Vatican foreign minister?

Actually, when you asked your question I had no idea that even the Church was involved in the oil for dictatorship scam, until I googled.

It really is true that there is no depth of cynicism too deep for this world of ours.

Sidney: Far as I know the Vatican is the OLDEST continuous "Government type situation" in Europe. (some call the non relgious part a Government..Some call it a Monarchy..these are only neutral descriptive names here) The part of the Organization that isnt ONLY Religious has a Sec of State and has actual working and traveling Ambassadors. They are in touch with all the important Diplomats..and THEIR Govnt Agencies around the world. They have a point of view on the World that you hear every so often . What you heard lately follows their general (lately) point of view. Their point of view IS their Foreign Policy and looked upon by the other Countries as such.

Its not a secret..Its not a conspiracy theory that the Church isnt ONLY a Religious entity..it is..BUT (heres my but) it is ALSO a working and influencing bunch of Church DIPLOMATS that work inside the Regular usual Diplomatic Community..(State Dept and the Diplomats of the Vatican are always in touch and think MUCH alike on many issues --On Israel they do)...Much that you dont like in COUNRTIES State Depts..you wont like in the Church's State Dept either.

The Vatican just tried to do a "deal" with Arafat --8-10? or so months ago. (it was reported-- right out there)The deal was to SHARE Jerusalem. It was ARAFAT that said NO. He didnt want to SHARE Jerusalem with the Pope. (hellooo..Crusades) Meanwhile here JEWS are saying...What the hell do YOU mean SHARE Jerusalem??? The Vatican has decided that THEY want Jerusalem to be a INTERNATIONAL City. ALL three--- SAME power there for all three Religions.

LATER ..[Ready to start Lobbying for AFTER there is a Separate Pal State]is to morph BOTH the Pal State and Israeli State into ONE...State...and make THAT State an INTERNATIONAL Israel. Think they are calling that senerio the "One State" Solution. With these ME issues..the drumbeat on these plans start faintly and then it grows and grows and grows...slowly over time.

If you dont agree with this eventual way Israel should end up..ie parts of Israel being given to the Pals and/or being shared by EVERYONE... essentially being DE Judiazed...not really Jewish..(wink wink)...then you need to DO something and at least not support this end game.

Reading this thread only confirms to me why I will never belong to any organized religion. Many of the Catholics (I'm a lapsed Catholic who couldn't care less about the Vatican), Protestants, and Jews who have posted on this site sound like rabid, moronic Savonarolas. I hope that these people will look at a calender in the near future and note that it is 2004, not 1604.

The West is in a war against Radical Islam to preserve our modern society. The foundations of the West are Judeo-Christian, but the West has outgrown these underpinnings due to science, philosophy, and secularism (and, forgive the expression, "Thank God for that!"). The less religion in public discourse, the better.

What's the Russian for "cold turkey"?

Don't know, but the german word for hangover:

Katzenjammer: Literally the wailing of cats!

KATZENJAMMER
A hangover; anxiety or jitters; a discordant clamour.
In the sense of a hangover, this word was known in the US from the middle 1840s. It was taken from a well-established German word (it turns up in at least one work by Goethe, for example) which derives from Katzen, cats, plus Jammer, wailing or distress. In German it could also mean the unhappiness or depression that follows intoxication and so developed in American English a more general sense of what one might call a case of the willies.

[Link: www.quinion.com...]

#242, I've had much experience with Mr. Shea, a professional Catholic apologist. Before anybody even attempts to take anything he says seriously, let me give you a couple of articles to which he linked on his blog:

[Link: www.antiwar.com...]

In this piece, Pat Buchanan talks about the recent White House meeting between Sharon and Bush. In comparing the Palestinians to the Czechs who were sold out in 1938, Pitchfork Pat says:

"What does the mini-Munich mean? The great Zionist land thief (Sharon) has gotten America's blessing to keep his stolen goods. George Bush has out-sourced his Mideast policy to Tel Aviv. The custodian of our reputation for decency and honor in an Arab world of 22 nations is now Sharon. As for Palestinians who put their faith and trust in the United States, they have been exposed as fools.

"Can anyone in the White House believe that Bush's capitulation is anything but a formula for endless war and enduring hatred of an America that cannot say no to Ariel Sharon?"

Here's another article to which Shea links:

[Link: www.sabeel.org...]

The author is one Fr. Rick Van der Water, doctor of biblical theology and priest of the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem -- whose patriarch is long-time Arafat supporter Michel Sabbah. The article discuss Evangelical support for Israel. Fr. Van der Water begins...

"Hardly any Christian with a conscience would deny that the State of Israel is occupying lands belonging to others and on a daily basis flagrantly violates the human rights of Palestinians."

Tell me, do you seriously believe a theologian is going to disagree publically with his patriarch on a political matter, especially a patriarch like Sabbah?

Anyone who visits Shea's blog regularly will see him criticize Israel much more often and intensely than he criticizes the Palestinians. He spends much of his time trying to spin Vatican pronouncements on the war on terror -- including Cardinal Martino's absurd statements about feeling "sorry" for Saddam upon his capture.

Anyone who visits Shea's blog regularly also knows that he has little tolerance for cogent arguments that penetrate his cliches. Then he resorts to straw men, deliberate mischaracterization of others' views, name-calling and character assassination. I'm not the only one to have endured his rhetorical arrows.

Friends, do yourselves a favor. Ignore Shea. He's nothing but a useful idiot for the Palestinians and the Vatican's more anti-Western, anti-Israel elements.

Still the vast mass of people — under the influence of Arab media — cannot but feel aversion and hate for the West growing inside themselves.”

Growing - on a scale of 100 it's grown from 90 to 91, big deal. Wonder where the tipping point is asswipe.

Guess what will happen when we reach it.

Limited war is an oxymoron.

re: my #253

Mea culpa, comma before noun of address, "Wonder where the tipping point is, asswipe."

Hmmm...taking nudie pics of muslims is A SCANDAL...but priests diddling alter boys is a hiccup in judgement...the pope has lost any and all credibility...I think that poor man is dead anyhow and no one has had the guts to tell him.

People, people! What IS this? There are plenty wonderful people like all of you in every religion (ok, besides Islam ). This reminds me of a playground bickering. Don't we all have a more serious demon to slay: a demon of Islam? Please, while Vatican and its leaders have done enough bad things, we are all in one boat. Coc*suckers like Lojolo and Nyberg cannot break us apart.

Iron Fist -

bottled sunshine

Hadn't heard that one before - I like that!

mpax: I think I have to take a long break from visiting this site after reading so much anti-Catholic hatred.

I didn't read much hatred into the majority of the posts here, but anger at the treacherous policies of the current Vatican directed against the US, Israel and the West, and its appeasement of Islamic Fascism.

A handful of posters went haywire and hurled stones at Catholicism itself, but the religion IS led by a high command, so to speak, located in the Vatican. So when the Pope and his Foreign Minister make policies and issue statements that give aid and comfort to the enemies of Christianity, Judaism and other civilized people, you should expect heated disagreement.

Forgetting about its internal crisis, mentioned by Fiery Celt and other Catholics on this thread...

The RC Church is in real crisis because its adherents are being attacked worldwide by Muslims--in Pakistan, the Philippines, Indonesia, the Sudan, Kenya, Nigeria, Malawi, the Arab world, and yes, Europe. Its response is to appease the Caliphate--it remains silent about the murder of Christians, attacks the moral authority of the US and Israel at every step, defends Islam and its fascist dictators... why go on?

Oh, all you Christians/ Catholics stop yer whining.

I had a hissy fit on the Passion thread and said "GOODBYE, LGF".

Well, you'll be back.

I am a Christian, but I cannot believe that Jesus Christ would put up with what Islam does for FIFTEEN SECONDS.

And when Christians- Protestant and Catholic and Evangelical... whatever- act blatantly stupid and evil, I am going to call them out on it.

I mean us out on it.

I mean, I guess I'm saying that I support Israel, and anybody- ANYBODY- who equates what Israel does to protect herself with the hellish things the islamic freaks do or tries to condemn Israel or say they are occupiers or whatever the hell stupid, evil statement they make at the moment to hide their Jew hatred or their fear can absolutely suck my ass.

That's all I have to say on the topic.

And all you whiners, you'll be back.

You won't be able to help it.')

right,

1. Why is it when your in an argument with some people on here, the first thing they do is question my Judaism. Its as if they believe Jews can only have one opinion or political belief...I've got news for you...we're all different.

2. Calling the Pope senile and inferm was a cheap shot I admit, but hey its no worse than keeping an ill man in charge and wheeling him out to perform tasks when he obviously needs rest and looking after.

3. Oliver Cromwell did persecute Catholics, Fiery Celt (hmm nice name) forgets to mention that he brought parliamentary politics to Britain, near abolished the monarchy and generally invented modern Britain. If he hadnt the democratic world might be more akin to Italy and Spain than the US and the UK. Thank G-d. There are statues of Cromwell in Westminster for instance, he also oversaw the organisation of the new model army, the template of the modern British Army. Fiery Celt you can hero worship who you like succesive popes, the communist Gerry Adams, Michael Collins, Bobby Sands Etc. but they all have blood on their hands too just remember that.

4. I dont care about Ian Paisley converting, that has nothing to do with the argument. That is his choice.

5. How dare you mention persecution by Oliver Cromwell, have you heard of the Inquisition? Did the Communist IRA never exist?

6. I think the main point in this thread is this...criticise Judaism and the Jews and everyone turns their heads (Catholics included), criticise the Catholic Faith and we get the full fire and brimstone act it's as if the church and its ministers are beyond critique and prosecution...oh hang on in light of current scandals and the way the Catholic organisation and the followers of the faith have dealt with it they are!! Lucky bastards.

7. Have your little temper tantrum, pick up your ball and fuck off home...I tire of playing ball with people like you.

I'll leave you with a quote from my (ahem) hero (actually Moshe Dayan is my Hero, anyhooo)...

“this is a righteous judgement of god upon these
barbarous wretches, who have imbrued their hands in so much innocent blood...”

Oliver Cromwell after the storming of Drogheda.1649

sounds like Ollie viewed the Catholics in the same way that the US and Israel should be dealing with Islam to me.

I am a Muslim and I have no desire to go to war with anybody. Be they Catholics, Jews, stone worshippers or atheists.

#191

Thanks,Lou'siana,

Re: the attic. I don't think I'll be hiding. No hiding,never again.

However,you appear to be one of those people Anne spoke about...

I keep my ideals, because, in spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart.

— Anne Frank, Holocaust Victim

(on my reading list when I was 12)

#261 geekpunk

Hi geekpunk!

I have no desire to go to war with anybody

Glad to hear it.

#261 Geekpunk

In'shallah and Shalom...

Once a proud Democrat; Once a proud Catholic.

#261--We thank you for your words. Nows the time to SPEAK the F...UP against this barbarism or else you too can end up radioactive dust in the atmosphere along with the rest of us.

As for DISCUSSING whats happening with ME Politics and who is involved and on what LEVEL they are involved..I will be discussing this. All that I said is no deep dark secret..Its out there.. If an entitiy, religious or otherwise, is going to get all involved in ME politics, IF they CHOOSE to do this both privately and/or publically, then I am gonna say whats happening. example: (offer to SHARE? Jerusalem with Arafat??? is MY business)

This is a separate issue from ALL the other issues in the Church now ...The issue of the ME, has NOTHIN to do with little boys and scandel, or woman as Priests, or American Catholics in Politics taking communion.

All those issues are NONE of my biz...but BE IN THE ME...Big Time..make excuses for murderers...make pronouncements about what you think G-d really wants or would like to see, get all MORAL with it...diddle around in the ME issue--- means you diddle around in MY LIFE and the life of my fellow AMERICAN CITIZENS..THEN what you do and how you do it with whom you do it with, and IF it follows a recognizable...THATS MY BUSINESS.

The Church is big enough to make a Diff..and so...if it can make a Diff...and is IS being ACTIVE in this issue..which it is..then I have to speak up. The RELIGION is one thing..(anyones entitled to believe or not believe--go for it, enjoy it, be happy in it) BUT the POLITICS are another thing.

And here, a couple of days ago, archbishop meets senior Iranian cleric.

I wonder whether the archbishop expressed concern about The Persecution of Christians in Iran

I wonder whether the topic was even mentioned.

The bullying of Iraqi thugs is a worse scandal than 911 because the islamic world is more shocked by that than the death of three thousand innocents.
That would be bad enogh.
But much of seriously sick western press seem to agree with that too.
That the Vatican the defenders of the faith make such statements only reveals that they are on the road to perdition.
That is sad because they have been defending the west against Islamic invasion for 1500 years now.
The crusaders have gone.
The churches have been burnt down in their thousands throughout the world
Many thousands of catholics have been salughtered.
Thousands of RCs have left because of the paedophile scandals.
Rcs are becoming DInks and soon they will have a lower birthrate in EUrabia than muslims.
Appeasement will only work from a positon of strentgh.
and the Vatican is losing that.