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US Athletes Told to Cool it at Olympics

Sun, May 16, 2004 at 10:39:22 am PDT

In a “charm offensive” to try to get the world to like us, US athletes have been warned against waving their flag at medal celebrations: U.S. athletes told to cool it at Olympics. (Hat tip: Pamela.)

NEW YORK — American athletes have been warned not to wave the U.S. flag during their medal celebrations at this summer’s Olympic Games in Athens, for fear of provoking crowd hostility and harming the country’s already-battered public image.

The spectacle of victorious athletes grabbing a national flag and parading it around the stadium is a familiar part of international sporting competition, but U.S. Olympic officials have ordered their 550-strong team to exercise restraint and avoid any jingoistic behavior.

The plan is part of a charm offensive aimed at repairing the country’s international reputation after the deepening crisis in Iraq and damaging revelations of the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. forces at the Abu Ghraib prison.

“American athletes find themselves in extraordinary circumstances in Athens in relation to the world as we know it right now,” said Mike Moran, a veteran former spokesman for the United States Olympic Committee who has been retained as a consultant to advise athletes how to behave.

“Regardless of whether there is anti-American sentiment in Athens or not, the world watches Americans a lot now in terms of how they behave and our culture. What I am trying to do with the athletes and coaches is to suggest to them that they consider how the normal things they do at an event, including the Olympics, might be viewed as confrontational or insulting or cause embarrassment.”

This is good, but it doesn’t go far enough. To really repair our wounded reputation, the athletes, when accepting their medals, should also apologize for oppressing their fellow athletes from less-privileged countries by committing the transgression of beating them.

Oh. And of course, they will also need to apologize for the Abu Ghraib prison scandal.

That should get the love flowing again.

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260 comments

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1 Peter  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:43:34am

USA! USA!

That's what the Olympics are about. For people from every country.

So let's hear it loud and proud:

USA! USA! USA!

Everybody!

USA! USA! USA!

2 RC neo-Jew  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:44:36am

Perhaps they should wave somebody else's flag when they win. How about the Palestinian flag? You know, the one belonging to the 'state' of 'Palestine' - which is 'competing' in the Olympic Games (or did I dream that? Or have a nightmare about it...)

3 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:44:41am
4 T. Jefferson  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:44:51am

Simply pathetic.

5 jhs  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:44:54am

If this doesn't remind me of the stories I read about the 1936 Olympics I don't know what does!

6 Ann  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:47:10am

#5 jhs:

Thanks. I'm off to look for links and send them to the USOC.

7 Bomber Harris  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:47:41am

That does it!

8 amir  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:47:53am

Speaking of the Olympics

Israel is hoping three time european judo champion Arik Ze'evi will bring Israel its first gold medal.

Israeli wins European Judo championship

9 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:49:22am

Greek Athlete Seeks Palestine Designation

Greek javelin thrower Sofia Sakorafa has petitioned the International Olympic Committee to allow her to compete for Palestine at the Athens Games.

Sakorafa, 47, who broke the world women's javelin record in 1982, said Tuesday she has become a Palestinian citizen and hopes to compete during the Aug. 13-29 Games. She would need an IOC waiver to bypass qualifying standards.

She refused to say how or when she obtained Palestinian citizenship, but an official from the Palestinian Authority said she has been in contact with diplomats and sports envoys for about a year.

10 Angelus  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:49:35am

i think americans should get bigger flags than everyone else and when they win the most medals complain about the lack of challenge.

11 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:50:18am

Sorry, I was posting that in response to RC neo-Jew #2.

12 the continental  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:50:55am

So in greece the other day, they began attaching a roof to the new olympic stadium. The roof was designed by a spanish architect, and in the event of a terrorist attack, it packs itself up and runs away.

13 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:50:55am
14 Perry  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:51:02am

That's asking too much. Anybody who'd be offended by a winner's celebration should..........ah forget it. That ruined it. Right now I don't even want to watch any ratty old Olympics.

If my kid qualified for any event, I think I'd react, "Sweetie you and I know you're the best in the world. Unfortunately it's going to have to remain our little secret."

15 amir  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:51:04am

#9 zulubaby

Thanks for the info.
Now I'm going to throw up.

16 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:51:15am

Who the F-ck retained Mike Moran Moron as a 'consultant' in the first place?

Was it done with public funds?

USA! USA! USA!


D. Edgren

17 Verlaine  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:51:50am

This is beyond belief, even in the context of the last two years, in which most things said about the US have been beyond belief.

"the world watches Americans a lot now in terms of how they behave "

Really, Mr. Moran? Is it the sacrifice of over 700 sons and daughters in a war that will make the world much safer in the long run and which ended one of the most blood-soaked and despotic regimes in modern history that they've been watching? You mean they want to scream out "thank you" for this noble act?

I have a hunch many US athletes will reject this insane "advice" and do what they damn please. I wouldn't mind seeing the ignorant friends of fascism and consumers of mindless anti-Americanism in the stadiums of Athens booing the American flag -- as long as it gets wide coverage on TV here. The clueless in America will cower in their ignorant self-hatred and dream of new ways to apologize for helping the world, but the majority will have the appropriate reaction.

18 Techie  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:52:51am

Compare this to the events depicted in the recent movie "Miracle" about the 1980 Winter Olympics with the US vs. USSR hockey game.

If we could openly skate around with American flags and the crowd roaring USA! USA! USA! to our mortal enemy then, what does this say about our current mindset?

19 Ann  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:53:34am
20 Michelle  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:54:06am

Maybe they should just stomp on the flag when they win, that ought to please the rest of the world.

Jeez, this is getting ridiculous and IS going to be the downfall of this country.

21 walstib  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:54:40am

OT:
Arab editor calls on Arafat to resign


Some snipets; the rest reads like a teary love story.
=================================

Jihad Al Khazen, a prominent columnist and former Editor-in-Chief for the Saudi-owned London-based daily Al-Hayat, has called on Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat to resign in order to pave the way for a young leadership to take over.

Khazen's call was made in an open letter to Arafat published in Al-Hayat, one of the Arab world's leading newspapers. He also accused Arafat of driving the Palestinian cause to a dead end.


"Our dear brother Yasser Arafat, I suggest that you resign," Khazen, who describes himself as a long time friend of the PA chairman, wrote. "You have done your best. It is time to give the wheel to younger hands. The American administration wants you to leave the scene, and Ariel Sharon wants to kill you. The reasons of both are known. They took a stance from you based on enmity. I came to this conclusion out of love. I am worried about you."

Khazen cited Arafat's age and health as good reasons why he should step down. "You are not young anymore," he said in his letter. "You do not have the best of health. Your cause is weaker than you are. It needs a brilliant mind and hands that do not shake. I ask you to resign because I am your friend. I wish you well-being and I want your cause to live."

He advised Arafat to resign while he was still popular among his people. "You are a democratically elected president," Khazen noted. "If presidential elections were held in the Palestinian territories tomorrow, you would win again with a sweeping majority. That is why I hope you would leave the presidency in your moment of strength, not weakness.

This way, you would always be the father of the revolution and of the homeland."

Khazen said he was aware of the fact that Arafat does not like to be told that he should resign, adding that his advice was based on their longstanding friendship.

"My friend, resign. Enough is enough. Do it and give yourself a chance. Give the cause a chance."

22 Delta Burka  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:54:40am

Are we sure this guy's name is spelled Mike MORaN?

23 Kathianne  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:54:45am

Seems to me Charles, that YOU haven't gone far enough. When USA wins gold, they should turn their backs on the flag, yell, "Allah Akbar" and apologize for making the Islamicists attack us, causing a PR problem.

24 Laurence Simon  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:55:12am

US taxpayers and donors give a fortune to the USOC, whether through direct contributions or through increased prices on products because everybody's trying to buy their way into being the "Official X of the Olympic Games" or the "Official Y of the US Olympic Team." A little flag-waving and end-zone celebration is the least the athletes can do to repay the American people for years of subsidized training, housing, and equipment.

I hope the NBA players competing for the US Basketball team go as nuts and insane as they do when they win playoff games. They make enough money not to give a rat's ass what some politically correct weenie in the front office thinks.

Otherwise, might as well get rid of the red and blue and wave a white flag around.

25 Arvin  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:56:47am

We should also apologies to the world for beating their publicly funded athletes with our privately funded capatilist athletes..

We should apologies to the other athletes for making the world safe enough for the Olympics.

I say Kofi should light the torch.

26 Perry  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:56:47am

#17 Verlaine

Part of me hopes the athletes will be just as nationalistic and flag-waving as ever.

The Mommy part of me wants them not to go at all.

27 Jakester  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:57:27am

They should take the flag pole and impale the first scumbag, who jeers the US, with it!

28 [Engineer]  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:57:50am
Having rejected a proposed boycott of the 1936 Olympics, the United States and other western democracies missed the opportunity to take a stand that--some observers at the time claimed--might have given Hitler pause and bolstered international resistance to Nazi tyranny. With the conclusion of the Games, Germany's expansionist policies and the persecution of Jews and other "enemies of the state" accelerated, culminating in World War II and the Holocaust

1936 Olympics

Are we going to hide this time also?

29 Beagle: sit dhimmi dogs, sit  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:58:11am

#13 bigel

We agree more and more.

Cancel the Olympics.

These will be the Berlin Games for the EuroIslamoSocNazFascists. I'd bag it if I were an athlete.

30 RC neo-Jew  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:58:59am

#9 zulubaby

That's even worse than a competitor from Gaza or the West Bank (hoping for a gold medal in the Stone-Throwing event). Definitely a nightmare.

31 jawa  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:59:42am

Bigel:

I agree...boycott the Olympics...

32 deadman  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:01:17am

In the spirit of being too well armed to fight poor Iraqi and Al Quida patriots, we ought to require that the US team hold back so we don't win a disproportionate number of medals. That could make someone feel bad.

Maybe everyone should get a medal, because everyone who tries is a winner.

33 Ann  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:01:19am
34 Geepers  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:02:39am

Beagle (#29),

Cancel the Olympics.

Well we could boycott the Olympic games in Greece but we can't cancel them.

I'd bag it if I were an athlete.

Were you one of the people that were all pissed off when Spain turned tail and ran when threatened?

35 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:02:53am
36 Artisticulated  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:03:09am

#17 Verlaine, Hear Hear.

The more proud I am of the actual leader of this country, the more embarrassed I am by those who think they represent it globally. I think Moran's suggestion has to be one of the most insidiously stupid ideas I've heard in a very long time.

37 RC neo-Jew  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:03:15am

I'm just waiting for 'Palestine' to enter the Eurovision Song Contest. I just know that every country will give this non-existent country top marks, no matter how rubbishy their song, and they will win with the highest number of points ever.

38 walstib  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:04:39am

My favorite parts:

The spectacle of victorious athletes grabbing a national flag and parading it around the stadium is a familiar part of international sporting competition, but U.S. Olympic officials have ordered their 550-strong team to exercise restraint and avoid any jingoistic behavior.

The plan is part of a charm offensive aimed at repairing the country's international reputation after the deepening crisis in Iraq and damaging revelations of the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. forces at the Abu Ghraib prison.

Seems like we're telling the team to act like a bunch of wussies. Yep, I guess this is just the type of behavior that will cause our enemies to fear and respect us. What a load of crap!

39 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:05:11am

amir (#15)

I know.

Where is that list of the participating countries?

40 justdanny  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:08:18am

OT

Charles,

There doesnt seem to be much interest in the story, but I'd like you to look at my last comment to the "5/14/2004: RoP Moonbat Canadian Visit Update" post.

I was clearly lied to. Probably doesnt deserve any more attention though.

41 Geepers  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:08:29am

jawa (#31),

boycott the Olympics

And who would that punish? But the athletes?

As Darleen said on the other thread, if we hadn't have gone to Munich in '36 there would have been "no Jesse Owens performance giving dramatic lie to Hitler's racist ideology."

You don't win in athletic competition by sitting at home, and you don't influence world politics by making your athletes losers.

42 Jaffar  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:08:43am

Dear Mr. Mike Moran,

In regards to your recent advice to members of the U.S. Olympics Team to refrain from excessive displays of patriotism at the upcoming Summer Olympics, I feel rather strongly that it would be inappropriate for me to refrain from expressing my feelings towards that advice:

Go f*ck yourself

Many thanks and best wishes,

JaGV, an Olympics fan.

43 Ann  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:08:48am

Should this be the uniform for the USA Athletes?

Fit right in

44 Artisticulated  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:09:21am
"The plan is part of a charm offensive…"

Who knew? Turns out the WoT is actually hurting us in the WtBtMHCitW. War-to-Be-the-Most-Huggable-Country-in-the-World. Call out the Care Bears!

45 Rayra the Honorary Jew  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:11:26am

This is disgusting.


US Olympic Committee


Colorado Springs Olympic Training Center
National Headquarters
One Olympic Plaza
Colorado Springs, CO 80909
Tel: 719-866-4500

Media & Public Affairs - media@usoc.org

USOC: (June 13) USOC Vice President Paul E. George and Managing Director, International Affairs Greg Harney will join representatives from the International Olympic Committee, the Olympic Council of Asia, the U.S. State Department and the United Nations Development Program for two days of meetings in Kuwait City, Kuwait to begin formulating plans to redevelop sports programs in Iraq. (June 17) The Independent Commission of the United States Olympic Committee will make public its report on June 19 in Washington, D.C. The Independent Commission was appointed in March at the request and recommendation of the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation and charged with developing recommendations for reform of the USOC. Media wishing to cover the briefing on June 19 in Washington, D. C. should respond by telephone prior to Thursday’s press conference to either Mike Moran (719-331-7266) or Nancy Chase (719-866-2204). For more information, log on to [Link: www.usoc.pressbox.org....]
46 Artisticulated  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:11:40am

Dang! should be:
War-to-Be-the-Most-Huggable-Country-in-the-World.

Obssesive? me?

47 LC LaWedgie  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:12:14am

How about athletes carry Flags topped with an Eagle truck hung with two brass balls (humbly symbolizing the Olympic unity between the East and the West, of course)?

48 Artisticulated  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:12:27am

War-to-Be-the-Most-Huggable-Country-in-the-World.


*idjut rabbit*

49 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:12:50am

Here's what I was looking for: ATHENS 2004: Israel doesn't have a capital city

They have 'Palestine' listed with Jerusalem as the capital. Ugh, my blood is boiling again.

50 [Engineer]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:12:57am

Here is the best contact information I can find for the US Olympic Committe- write them and tell them what you think of this

media@usoc.org

51 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:13:51am

bigel

We should then give a monetary prize to the medalist who kills the most seething Greeks with strokes and aneurysms.

LOL bigel, I just love you!

52 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:14:00am

I wonder how many Americans will be attending the Olympics this year.

53 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:15:47am

zulubaby, I watch the Greek news everyday, I haven't seen the Sakorafa/Palestinian thing at all, but I'm not surpised it's not mentioned. I'm disgusted, words just fail me.

54 dude  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:16:39am

I guess we should throw the contests as well. He can kiss my red white and blue rear end.

55 Blue Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:17:42am

I suppose to make the world really like us, all US teams competeing against France, Germany, and Russia should immediately forfiet their medals upon winning.

56 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:18:37am

If our athletes attend, they should PROUDLY hold and waive the U.S. flag! Let the Greeks seethe, as if it would be any different from their everyday seething, anyway.

I'm so sick and tired of Greek stupidity, I just want to scream!

AAAAARGGGHHHH!

{sorry about that..}

57 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:18:38am

zorkmidden, for what it's worth, it's from a couple days ago.

58 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:19:57am
59 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:20:44am

zulubaby, Greek media has been so involved in the most important issue this week, which covered most news time, to spend any time highlighting a disgrace like hers.

Oh, the most important issue this week? Eurovision, of course! :-(

60 Rayra[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:21:43am
61 RC neo-Jew  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:22:07am

Of course, if that Greek athlete really wants to represent the palestinians, she will have to do it properly. She will have to lose spectacularly. It's their national custom.

62 Beagle: sit dhimmi dogs, sit  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:22:07am

#34 Geepers

No TV, no Olympics for us. Of course GloboCorp has other loyalties. "Same as it ever was, same as it Ever was." -- D. Byrne

Paging Dr. Ethics! No, a real one, with ethics. Higher education, isn't.

[Machiavelli Hat On]

They want to televise the big terrorist attacks. Sorry, I am that cynical.

63 David 'Parisian Insider'  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:22:26am

OT: demonstration in Paris against antisemitism. A real shame, only 10-15.000 people. Half the antiracist organisation only accepted to demonstrate, the others wanting to demonstrate against all forms of racism. An easy trick to dilute antisemitism, the main problem in France at the moment, into the blurrier term of 'racism'.

Worth mentioning, many Jews were defiant about this demonstration and did not come. That's because it was attended by many people and 'progressist' movements who demonise Israel all the time and at the same time whine about the growing Jew hatred they themselves indirectly promote.


Well, zulubaby, I remember you telling me that France was completely lost. I admit you were right. This is heartbreaking.

64 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:22:42am

bigel you're right, no Americans, and even us, Greek-Americans are not very welcome there (I've faced harrassment for speaking English in public)

A lot of Dutch people visit Greece, and the Germans of course. How appropriate.

65 [Engineer]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:23:04am

#41 Geepers

if we hadn't have gone to Munich in '36 there would have been "no Jesse Owens performance giving dramatic lie to Hitler's racist ideology."

Not only did Owens' preformance not change their race hate, it may have increased it. I am sure you have heard the old libel that blacks are good at sports because they are closer to apes than the rest of us.

66 SoCalJustice  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:23:55am

The Real World San Diego "cast" went to the Greece for their trip.

Of course, that easily could have been orchestrated by the U.S. government to inflict hours of unending and shrill annoyance upon all the locals who were unlucky enough to cross paths with them.

67 Darwin Akbar  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:23:59am

I'm sure this would make that old bastard anti-Semite Avery Brundage very happy.

And I'm sure doing just as Mr. Moran suggests will cause the Greek and Euroweenie specators to shower love and cheers upon the Israeli and American athletes, rather than boos, chants of "baby killer" and "free Palestine," and a few back-to-the -ovens chants.

Better yet, why don't we tell our athletes (who have only trained all of their lives to get to these events) to simply refrain from winning any medals, lest their presence and superiority offend someone.

68 Jaffar  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:24:08am

To all:

Didn't Sakorafa compete for the Greek Olympic team like 15-20 years ago? That would put her in her 40's or 50's now!

WTF?

69 Farmer Joe  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:24:10am

Fuck that. Celebrate your asses off, American atheletes.

70 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:24:11am

bigel, I'm just thinking about how much support the athletes will have from spectators -- you know, people there cheering for them.

zorkmidden, Eurovision should be outlawed.

71 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:25:01am
72 Pamela  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:26:41am

#18 Techie


gotta go out and buy a copy of that DVD pronto!!

73 jhs  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:27:06am

#42 Jaffar

Perhaps an opening salvo in the first sentence also...
To Mr. Mike Moran,

You pathetic cringing little milksop!!!
In regards to your recent advice...etc.:-D

74 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:27:26am

zulubaby, what's worse is today, the day after the Eurovision contest, it's still on all the news! For 25 minutes now, in the news coverage, the state TV is highlighting how Greece got third place.

Makes me sick to my stomach, honestly. I've lost all hope for Greeks.

75 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:29:07am

David 'Parisian Insider' (#63)

I'm sorry, I wish I were wrong but I really do think that it's over for France. It's already too late. I met a guy this week, he's American but lives in Paris. He's here to see his family and then he's going back to Paris to pack up and move to London. He's quite sad about it because he's in love with Paris but says he can't live there anymore, he can't stand what's going on there. Beautiful place, disgusting people.

76 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:29:51am
77 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:30:11am

Greek propaganda has gone full out on this. They're not referring to this article (that would involve actual journalistic research) but to all these "hidden interests" who want to "blacken" Greece's image abroad.

78 ShiksaGrrrl  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:31:03am

This tension all reminds me of the Munich Olympics, sadly.


I truly hope the security this year is as top notch as it can be. ;-(

79 Rayra[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:31:11am
80 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:31:23am
81 FH  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:31:51am

#75 zulubaby

I'm sorry, I wish I were wrong but I really do think that it's over for France. It's already too late. I met a guy this week, he's American but lives in Paris. He's here to see his family and then he's going back to Paris to pack up and move to London. He's quite sad about it because he's in love with Paris but says he can't live there anymore, he can't stand what's going on there. Beautiful place, disgusting people.

They said the same thing of Germany in 1933. Europe is fast approaching the Abyss, and has no intention of turning back. Eurabia, here we come. This time, however, we aren't going in to free France, but only to save those Frechmen and women deserving of it, and to take with us the cultural treasures that will be destroyed by the Enemy.

82 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:32:09am

bigel, fine with me ;-)

It's time to get her out of there anyway, she may have started losing it as well... All she can talk about is Eurovision...

83 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:33:28am
84 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:35:04am

FH (#81)

Europe is diseased. It's amazing to see, and very sad, but they did this to themselves.

85 Logic  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:35:31am

I bet the Palestinians are the odds-on favorites to win the gold in Rock Throwing!

There's nothing wrong with advising the U.S. athletes not to "show boat"... but they should be able to wave their flag, for heaven's sake! Next they'll be recommending they play "Kumbaya" in place of the Star-Spangle Banner during medals ceremonies.

86 A Jackson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:37:19am

How 'bout a label on the back of each American Olympic track uniform (in several languages) that says "If you can read this, you're in second place".

87 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:39:19am

bigel, it's shocking to me that this filth is sold in Greece. I've never seen it in the U.S., but it's featured prominently in Greek bookstores.

88 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:39:24am
89 Belize042  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:40:14am

84 zulubaby

...they did this to themselves.

How true. It's one thing to prove unable to halt German armored divisions from crossing your border, quite another to fail to stop jihadis at the Customs gate. The one comes from inadequate military strength, while the other issues from a different sort of inadequacy, one much harder to rectify.

90 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:40:29am
91 House of Payne  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:40:33am

Also, the American athletes need to make sure they lose, so nobody else has to feel bad. Oh, and we need to change national anthems, since ours is about our flag waving and people seeing it, which is offensive. OUr new national anthem should be about how we're ashamed of the flag. Or flag-burning, even better.

92 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:40:41am

bigel (#88)

I take no pleasure in seeing Europe destroyed. I feel quite sad about it really.

93 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:42:29am
There's nothing wrong with advising the U.S. athletes not to "show boat"...

I don't know what this expression means, but I don't think it's OK AT ALL, to ask of athletes to tone it down, in any way, shape or form, no matter which country/ethnicity/race/religion they come from.

Has the U.S. ever asked anyone from another country to tone it down? It's an effing disgrace. If our athletes have to face restrictions that other athletes don't, they shouldn't go.

94 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:43:11am
95 Geepers  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:43:56am

bigel (#88),

I can't wait for the Islamic takeover of Europe,

Your true intentions finally stated?

and we tell them to go fuck themselves.

And your desire for revenge over salvation. Sad.

96 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:45:06am

Belize042 (#89)

Europe has been actively courting the Muslims for a long time and in doing so, have made it nice and cosy for the radical Islamists there. They are now beginning to reap what they have sown.

97 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:45:20am
98 RC neo-Jew  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:46:15am

The ageing Greek athlete is not the only one competing for that non-existent country: Three 'palestinians' compete in the Olympics

If her petition is granted, Sakorafa will become the third athlete scheduled to compete for Palestine at the Athens Games, joining 17-year-old swimmer Raad Aweisat and 19-year-old 800-meter runner Sanaa Abu Bkheet.

Right, so who's representing Narnia and Middle Earth?

99 amir  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:46:20am

This just in.

John Kerry suggests US team wears UN flag.

100 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:46:23am

bigel, if Greeks only read Aristotle today, a lot of this crap wouldn't be happening. I guess 500 years of dhimmitude has left its mark: the nation that gave us Aristotle today is enamored with Arabs and Muslims.

101 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:50:44am

I am reading this discussion and I am asking myself:

Was there any chance for Europe to survive after a mortal sin like the Holocaust ?

I think that an horror like that does not come out by chance, you need a deeply rooted problem...and the problem keeps coming out.


And I have met A LOT of openly antisemite europeans.

I think the rage of Bigel is understandable.
All this is too sad.

102 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:52:24am

halldor posted this on another thread
Greek Anti-Semitism Travel Advisory

103 amir  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:53:51am

I recall a baskeball game one or two years ago between Maccabi Tel Aviv and some European team - I think it was in Greece.
The audience was chanting anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli slogans at Maccabi's players who were mostly ingnoring them. But one player, Hussein Beshok, a Turkish national and Muslim who was playing for Maccabi heckled the audience back. I kind of liked that.

104 Ed Moran:Abu Buh-Bye Doubly Stupid!!!!!!!!!!  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:53:57am

If the Americans are going to get booed anyway, they might as well really earn it with a display of jingoism that will cheese off the Euro-peons.


I hope the Greek security forces are successful. I suspect splodeydopes will try their best to hit a Coalition country and/or Israel this summer.

Any word on whether they will have their stadia ready on time?

105 CPL. Menno  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:54:25am

#100 Zorkmidden:

bigel, if Greeks only read Aristotle today, a lot of this crap wouldn't be happening. I guess 500 years of dhimmitude has left its mark: the nation that gave us Aristotle today is enamored with Arabs and Muslims.

I liked Greece better when each city-state were at each other's throats. A unified Greece is a dull, intellectually-lifeless country.

106 David 'Parisian Insider'  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:54:45am

#80 bigel
I am French actually. Things are not that bad yet in Paris, I have never experienced any problems so far and neither many of my friends and family.
What breaks my heart is to watch the dreadful evolution of European mentalities (you would say, the return of traditional Euro thinking). It will take time, maybe 5, 10 or 20 years but inevitably, unless a miracle happens (which I very much doubt), France and the rest of Europe will turn into a hellplace for the Jews.
I have got quite a few things to finish, but the thought of having to leave my country whithin a few years never leaves my mind anymore.
I love NY, would not be a bad choice. Or Tel Aviv.

107 Buckeye Abroad  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:54:45am

#97 bigel

Europe is so depraved and evil, it is beyond salvation and is not even worthy of it.

The last 3 years of psychotic Jewhatred has convinced me of that.

Wow. Something is psychotic and its not just your post.

Is it difficult to think with all those voices in your head? Who are we speaking to now? Can you hear me bigel? We want to speak to bigel. Hello.

108 Ann  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:54:56am

#78:

Yes, maybe the US Athletes can go retro with their uniforms:
Munich

109 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:55:06am
110 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:55:36am
"today, there is no country in Europe that matches the intensity of antisemitic invective in Greece."

From the link above.

111 halldor  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:56:00am

#92 zulubaby

The destruction of Europe is more than sad - it's a disaster for the whole world.

112 lazytart  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:56:31am

OK. No other countries wave theirs as well. In fact, why don't we just cancel tthe whole stupid thing?

I would like to tell the rest of the world to kiss my lilly white arse.

THose pictures from the 1936 Olympics are revolting.

113 amir  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:57:01am

In the mean time
the fastest growing Jewish community is in Germany.

114 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:58:28am

CPL Menno

It's nice to see you again :-) Rayra the (half) Greek, you and I are the last of a dying breed... The Sane Greek, lol

BTW, you should have been around to battle the Greek troll on the Islamic Snuff Film thread.. had to finish him all by myself :-(

115 Logic  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:58:30am

#93 - RE: There's nothing wrong with advising the U.S. athletes not to "show boat"...

I don't know what this expression means, but I don't think it's OK AT ALL, to ask of athletes to tone it down, in any way, shape or form, no matter which country/ethnicity/race/religion they come from.


Showboating is something akin to: ripping off your shirt after scoring the winning soccer goal (yeah, I'm sure it was spontaneous!); pulling out a Sharpie™ or making a cell phone call after scoring a touchdown. That sort of thing. It has nothing to do with national pride, just tooting your own horn and looking like a jerk.

116 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:58:37am

Sorry to go off topic but I have just found something that I was looking for! I'm so compulsive it's ridiculous.

FH, you here? Remember I was looking for an article that I said I'd read on Jerusalem Post? Well the reason I couldn't find it there was because I'd read it on WorldNetDaily. Feh.

Anyway, here it is: How Israel defused suicide bombers

117 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:59:10am

gawd almighty, why even attend?

118 David 'Parisian Insider'  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:03:37am

#107 buckeye abroad
If I were you, I would be slightly cautious about such affirmations. You live abroad? If so, where do you live in Europe?
For all his excesses, bigel is not quite wrong about Europe. Living in France, I can tell you that what's going on here is most preoccupying, and that's an understatement.
Israel is demonised all the time by the same people who call themselves 'antiracist', but turn a blind eye to all the Jew hatred that contribute to fuel. More and more, you see articles on Israel referring to 'Jews' collectively. Conspiracy theories are on the loose, the top winner being of course the one directly inspired from the protocols, of course in a kind of modified PC version. The Jews cannot openly defend Israel . If they do, they are 'nazified' quite quickly.

119 C-Low  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:03:57am

This is Fu**ed up The Anti-America PC crowd has gotten way to much power in this country. These freaks have made people realy believe that if you are Strong or Succesful or a Winner then you are Bad were as if you are Weak or Failure or Loser you are pure and great.

success used to be celebrated and comended now because of these LLL they are demonized and shown as degrating to the failures of failed.

I guess sign of weakness will help stop the Chants of 9-11 or praise of Bin Laden or other Anti-American chants seen earlier at the Soccer games played by the US team in Mexico South America I think it even happened in Europe to. I'm not a big soccer fan so I just now of the couple that were exampled out.

120 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:05:18am

#109 Bigel

No need for that: the numbers tell me that Europe has five to ten years before falling into a social and economic chaos.

Gas is at about 6 dollars per gallon in most Eurabia countries today...just an example of good government...

And they have no defense, at all. It will become the Europe of Volkswanderung, anyone can attack and invade and pillage it.

There will be nothing to bomb...

121 Beagle: sit dhimmi dogs, sit  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:05:46am

Oh, I don't know.

I think bigel is one hell of an
Olympic polemicist.

Anger at Europe is hardly misplaced. What they say about us is serious, but just as bad. Lucky for us Europe specializes in triangulation, welfare, and moral equivalence -- for now.

122 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:05:52am

haldor (#111)

Agreed. There is nothing positive about it but it is their own doing so I have little sympathy. I just wish things were different.

123 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:06:42am

#115 Logic

Thanks for the explanation, wasn't sure what it meant. My sore point is that only American athletes are singled out. I'll bet Palestinian flags will be waving everywhere in the crowd, just wait and see.

124 C-Low  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:06:56am

You all should check this out to if you already havent.

This is a weierd article about the Berg kid. His dad we already knew was anti Bush now we know he was ANSWER pretty radical for the Dems. Makes you wonder just what his kid was doing in Iraq. Their is a lot of quincadences in this case. Not to mention unless you have some anti-american radical views about the US personally I don't see how you could run into befriend and hang out with a group of Islamic Radicals. On top of that give them your Email codes Hmmmm. I wouldn't give that to people I know well. Not to mention the fact they mention

[Link: www.chronwatch.com...]

My personal opinion is either one of 3 things
Berg was an Ati-War kid who a little to Activist and thought that the Islamic Radicals of the world were realy not Evil or Bad. A result he ran into some of those people and found out the hard way that yes thier realy is Evil Bad people in the world. Another example of sheltered rich kid raised in a "Peace Love & Happiness Radical Liberal Anti War enviroment" fed by his parents Colledge the Media learning the hard way that Reality is not pretty and that thier is Good & Evil in the world. Simple "Everyone maybe born equal but through the choices in our life upbringing and such we are made unequal" Good Bad Deserving Not-Deserving Smart Dumb Weak Strong Motivatied Depressed Leader Follower Etc............

Berg ran into the evil that he thought was just "misunderstood" "this or that Excuse" and the evil showed him why the good see them as Evil!!!!!! Now he Understands to bad it is To Late

125 David 'Parisian Insider'  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:08:46am

Back on the thread, I will support American athletes. I hope they win many medals and run around the stadium with HUGE US flags.
If the Greeks seethe, f**ck them.
BTW, we don't even know whether the main stadium will be ready for the opening. From what I ve read, everything is still unfinished.

126 Logic  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:10:57am

#123 - zorkmidden johnson 

My sore point is that only American athletes are singled out.

Yes, supposedly the advisory came from the US Olympic Committee... yet I can't help but think it originated elsewhere. Any guesses?

127 lorenzo  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:12:22am

I haven't had a chance to read all the messages, but if someone hasn't already suggested it, I'd advise the athletes to deliberately lose their matches. Or run the sprints backwards, or intall a few synchronized swimming moves into the swimming races. No dunking in basketball and if Andre Aggasi represents the U.S. in tennis, wear an Arab kaffeya instead of his usual tennis cap. Since most of the world yearns for the U.S. to lose, this will give them something to cheer about.

128 walstib  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:12:43am

Wonder how Moran & Co. will cringe if/when Israeli Arik Ze'evi wins the olympic gold medal in judo in Greece!

Arik Ze'evi successfully defended his European Judo Championship and won the title for the third time in four years with a win via ippon over former Olympic gold medallist Antal Kovacs of Hungary in the final on Sunday in Bucharest, Romania.
Ze'evi, who competes in the under-100 kg division, sent a message that he is in top form just three months before the Olympic Games in Athens, where he plans to improve on his fifth place finish from Sydney 2000.

129 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:13:20am

Ed Moran, David

Nothing is finished, the stadium doesn't have the Calatrava roof yet, the swiimming pool stadium does not have a roof (and it won't, no time, which means security nightmare), most works are half-finished, very doubtful they'll be done in time.

And here's something else: Who, in their right minds, would want to be in Athens in August ??? Average temp: 95, humidity 100%.

130 David 'Parisian Insider'  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:13:25am

#111 halldor

The destruction of Europe is more than sad - it's a disaster for the whole world.

Well, after a few tannoy systems are installed, you have to admit that Big Ben, Notre Dame and the Eiffel Tower would be perfectly fit for the daily calls to the faithfuls.

131 Farmer Joe  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:14:52am

#114 -

A few years ago, I had a Greek roommate. He said he hated hanging out with Greeks because he would prefer to talk about something other than Cypres.

132 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:15:56am

#126 Logic

My guess is it came from the State Dept. who are extremely focused on appeasement, in general.

When the American relatives of the 17N victims went to Greece for the trial, they were advised by the U.S. embassy to keep a low profile, as not to upset the Greeks! Sickening...

133 halldor  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:16:54am

#122 zulubaby

I also wish that things were different. But it's no longer really a question of having sympathy or not - no one in the Western world is outside this disaster. The destruction of Europe is really the destruction of everything that Western civlization stands for. With Europe gone, the Western world faces a bleak and uncertain future. After all, it was in Greece that the very idea of democracy was born - and look at Greece now, sunk in a mire of racist bigotry and unreason.

I still want to stay with the idea that Fallaci expresses at the end of her new book - that somehow it's possible to save the one unique blessing that Europe brought to the world, the primacy of Reason, and reasonableness. The Force of Reason.

134 FH  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:17:00am

zulubaby, thanks. Now I remember why I didn't find it again, I wasn't looking in the right place. For the right reason...

135 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:19:35am

Farmer Joe

It's worse now; favourite subjects of conversation are how 9/11 was a CIA/Mossad hit, Osama is a CIA agent, Israel has no right to exist, and Americans are the root of all evil (except on alternate days, when it's the Jews who are the root of all evil).

136 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:20:49am

halldor (#133)

The destruction of Europe is really the destruction of everything that Western civlization stands for. With Europe gone, the Western world faces a bleak and uncertain future.

I believe we're already there, it's too late. The Islamists are going to take over. Even in the face of the growing threat the Europeans remain passive. It's a disaster for us all.

137 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:22:29am

I felt this. Gives me the creeps.

138 lmg  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:23:05am

#32:

In the spirit of being too well armed to fight poor Iraqi and Al Quida patriots, we ought to require that the US team hold back so we don't win a disproportionate number of medals. That could make someone feel bad.

Given the potential for corruption and bias among the European judges, we might not need to hold back at all. Remember the figure skating scandal two years ago? (French and Russian judges screwing the Canadians.)

139 CPL. Menno  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:23:10am

#114 Zorkmidden:

It's nice to see you again :-) Rayra the (half) Greek, you and I are the last of a dying breed... The Sane Greek, lol

BTW, you should have been around to battle the Greek troll on the Islamic Snuff Film thread.. had to finish him all by myself :-(

Thanks. Though I'm so disgraced by my family's country [Greece] that I've shed the "Greek"-American tag; so I'm just an American now. I'm so disgusted by Greece that I ended up over-ruling my girlfriend's choice to visit the country while I was on leave [we instead went to Italy].

When my cousin visited the States from Greece a few weeks ago, I bought him a 'Full Azzan' [a box shaped like a Mosque that plays the Muslim Call to Prayer at certain times] for his birthday; telling him to get used to hearing that sound daily soon.

If the fighters of the Greek war of Independence two hundred years ago saw that their descendents would be openly collaborating with Islamic fascists today, they probably would have taken their rifles and pulled the trigger on themselves. What a waste.

140 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:23:25am

zulubaby

Even in the face of the growing threat the Europeans remain passive.

Quagmire! ;-)

141 Gary Bruce  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:28:06am

It must be the shame of needing US intervention and protection for 80 years to keep them free that's the underlying cause of Euro hate. That's too bad for us, because we're going to be in big trouble if we have to take on the Euros as well as the Islamoids in this world war.

W seriously needs to come up with a foreign policy to isolate Frawnce and Germany from the rest of Europe before they contaminate the entire continent. Whatever plan he comes up with should include heavy doses of pain. We've tried no pain for 2-1/2 years and it hasn't done us a lick of good.

142 halldor  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:29:31am

#136 zulubaby

I think it's a question of what can be saved from the disaster. Obviously, America - to which Fallaci pays full and generous tribute in the final pages of her book - can help to salvage some of the ruined heritage of Europe, and has a great heritage of its own which it can give to the peoples of the world. And not all Europeans are passive dhimmis. I believe it's too soon to say that the Islamists are going to take over - we are not there yet. There's still room for hope, and action. If there isn't, then we are all doomed.

143 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:29:44am

CPL. Menno

I'm so disgraced by my family's country

I feel your shame :-(

But please don't shed the Greek part, if you do it means "the terrorists have won" ;-) We need to show the world there are at least 6-7 Greeks who haven't lost it yet.

I'm so disgusted by Greece that I ended up over-ruling my girlfriend's choice to visit the country while I was on leave [we instead went to Italy].

I'm planning to retire in Mexico, myself.
{off humming "Cielito Lindo"}

144 halldor  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:35:04am

#141 Gary Bruce

It must be the shame of needing US intervention and protection for 80 years to keep them free that's the underlying cause of Euro hate.

This is not simply a matter of military protection - we are talking about a whole civilization, on which the Western ideas of justice, democracy and humanity are founded. If that civilization goes under, no military power on earth can save it.

145 Richard McEnroe  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:35:38am

Bigel — Don't kid yourself; the inbred byblows of Greek hill bnadits currently squatting in Greece have nothing to do either ethnically or culturally with Pericles, Aristotle or Leonidas. They were using their ruins for goat pens and powder magazines before the British reminded them of their culture.

Haldor, David "parisian insider" — it may well be that the only place Europe will survive as a culture is in the Americas. Look at the self-indulgent tripe their "arts" and "political thinkers" are producing, these days, from Britain to Germany. Do you think there's a modern European "serious" critic, artist or musician who regards the centuries of culture that went before him with anything but scorn?

146 LC LaWedgie  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:41:05am

The more I think about it, controlled, emotionless elegance and grace would send a powerful message when done right:

Kicking ass by the numbers.

147 halldor  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:41:08am

#145 Richard McEnroe

the only place Europe will survive as a culture is in the Americas.

If the living foundation - the culture - on which European civilization was built is destroyed, it won't survive in America, either, I believe.

148 [Engineer]  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:42:20am

#141 Gary Bruce

That's too bad for us, because we're going to be in big trouble if we have to take on the Euros as well as the Islamoids in this world war.

The Marines and a couple of carrier battle groups could take Europe. The Marines have more troops than all of Europe combined. Hell, the Belgian army won't sleep in tents, their union (no kidding) requires hard housing.

149 Sol Roth  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:42:42am

If I were presently an American olympic athlete, I would tattoo the American Flag on my forehead. I would make sure that it ran from temple to temple in length and from hairline to eyebrows in width. If I were a swimmer, I would tattoo one on my chest, back and one on each arm where you see them on a soldier's uniform.

That and a quick thrust to the throat is all any Eurobarfbag would get from me. Oh yeah, come a getssome Heinies.

150 Fundamental Theorem  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:53:23am

I tell my algebra classes that Dave Barry has said, "The Greeks gave us the Pythagorean Theorem, but as soon as we graduate from high school, we give it back to them."*

But given the level of logic emanating from Greece, I don't think they accepted it back after all.

*Roughly

151 deadman  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:57:48am

#116 Zulubaby

From your link:

"Baloney," retorted Gissin. "This fence is about one thing – saving Israeli lives. What would the U.S. do if a bordering territory was sending suicide bombers to blow up American women and children in cafes and buses? In fact, the U.N. recently announced that it is constructing a fence around its building in New York for security purposes."

Sounds like an opportunity for discerning LGF's to protest an Apartheid Wall right here in the US. The circumstances are almost exactly the same. Surrounding a pocket of crooks, thugs and killers to protect a civilized society.

152 Joshua  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:59:01am

Re #18:

Compare this to the events depicted in the recent movie "Miracle" about the 1980 Winter Olympics with the US vs. USSR hockey game.

If we could openly skate around with American flags and the crowd roaring USA! USA! USA! to our mortal enemy then, what does this say about our current mindset?

There is a difference. The 1980 Winter Olympics were held in Lake Placid, New York, in front of American fans.

If NBC tries to assemble a montage of Americans being cheered at the Olympics in Athens this year, I suspect it will be very short.

153 Mockingbird  Sun, May 16, 2004 10:59:39am

On the original official Olympics listing the capital of Israel was given as Tel Aviv, and the capital of "palestine" as Jerusalem.

Now it has been ingeniously amended:

Both Israel and "palestine" get only the symbol *

Does that make Asterisk the only city that is the capital of two different places?

Well at least, these Greeks are NOT real Hellenes, who were oneof the most gifted peoples in history.

154 urthshu  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:00:51am

147
Nope, European cultcha won't survive here. We're already parting ways, culturally, quite quickly. Hell, I don't even understand where they're coming from anymore.

I think, as the Latino, West Coast Asian, and Indian immgrant populations get more influence, we're going to look towards those regions for cultural influence/interest.

Oh- and hi all. Been reading up. :)

155 Buckeye Abroad  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:01:24am

#118 David

Germany, to answer your question. Been living overseas in various corners of the world since 88'.

Regarding bigel, have you ever heard, "you become what you hate the most?" His posts speak for themselves, so I don't need to comment on them.

You have to forgive me if I am hesitant from liquidating 300 million people based on a perception from the safety of my living room.

Despite the insults and the criticism I have been exposed to over the years (more so since 9-11), I am finding the EU is waking up to their problems despite the lack of political will to act. I have met various europeans who are cluing in and seeing who the enemy is (and its not GWB nor Sharon). I don't know if they will prevail, but their socialist governments, estranged immigration policies and falling birth rates is going to kill them before any ICBMs leave the launch pad.

Living in France, I can tell you that what's going on here is most preoccupying, and that's an understatement.

Caton's experiences were enough for me. Besides, been to Paris on business and I would not live there for anything.

156 David 'Parisian Insider'  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:02:43am

Halldor
While it can be hoped (a tiny slither of hope, but still...) that the average European will eventually awake from the torpor imposed on him by our progressit elites, I still believe that the Jews, as always, will have to pay a fair price. Unfortunately, they will be found guilty by both, the Islamofascists and the Euros.
I have a perfect example: my country. Whilst pple dilslike the muslims behaviour more and more, they tend at the same time to blame the Jews for most of it.

157 David 'Parisian Insider'  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:10:07am

#155 buckeye

I have met various europeans who are cluing in and seeing who the enemy is (

This is true, but there aren't many, you know that perfectly well. And their voice is stifled. I wonder how long it will take for pple to realise that the world, and in Europe in general, faces a major catastrophe. There are enormous forces trying to prevent people from seeing the truth. I fear it is a bit late. Alternatively, if and when Europe wakes up, it might be really bloody. And I strongly suspect the Jews will be fair game, for an appetizer. I can see it arriving in France, within 5-10 yeara.

158 Promethea  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:17:23am

#157 David 'Parisian Insider' . . .

OT but I asked you on a thread a few days ago why you thought the French were so anti-American. I would love to get your take on this subject.

BTW, as far as I know, they have always been anti-American, and it is just a myth that they aren't. What do you think?

Thanks.

159 urthshu  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:18:01am

157

Alternatively, if and when Europe wakes up, it might be really bloody.

I'd think it very likely. The Euros are so sick of war- and keep congratulating themselves that they are- that they're ripe for taking the easy way out: killing the vulnerable en masse.

160 halldor  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:19:43am

#156 David 'Parisian Insider'

As was evident last century, one of the principal symptoms of the decline of Reason in Europe was the rise of antisemitism, which had always been there but was given new impetus by the ideology of Nazism. Islamism - now being courted by Eurabia - is just another form of totalitarian ideology, an heir to Nazism, and of course it feeds the same prejudices and hatreds.

It could well be argued that European civilization doesn't deserve to survive. But if that is so, the whole of the Western world is involved, not just the continent of Europe, for the West has based its morality and its justice on the ideas of the European enlightenment.

161 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:20:43am

David 'Parisian Insider

I feel very anxious about all this because I've seen European reason fly out the window. Europe has changed so much, in the last ten years even. I never experienced antisemitism and antiamericanism in the level they are today, when I was growing up. Things have spiraled totally out of control. We have learned nothing from our history. :-(

162 Promethea  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:23:51am

#161 zorkmidden . . .

Do you live in Europe? For some reason, I got the impression you live in California.

163 CPL. Menno  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:26:03am

#147 Halldor:

If the living foundation - the culture - on which European civilization was built is destroyed, it won't survive in America, either, I believe.

I agree with you. The only reason why the "disease" hasn't fully spread to America yet is mainly due to the fact that we're such a vast nation [land-wise], we don't have many large muslim communities, and we're pretty far away from the ME. It's not because our culture or people are naturally superior. I mean look at our national media, its not too difficult to ascertain where their sympathies are placed. We too, like Europe, have groups that covertly advocate the Islamic fascist cause, like CAIR. We have a scant few Muslim communities popping up [such as the one in Michigan and a large Palestinian presence in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn], and already they're having their wishes granted.

If Europe is to be saved, it has to be from within. The current structure of Europe though, due to the European Union, makes this very unlikely to occur. Member countries that don't tow the line are visciously denounced. I mean honestly, we really can't make it easier for Islamic fascists; if I had half-a-sense I'd join them instead of the US. Fortunately I don't, and I happen to value Western culture over a dead-end cult. However, 40-45% of my population thinks otherwise.

"But this slacking of your fighting spirit does you no credit now, You who are all leading men in the army. I would not quarrel with a man hanging back from battle if here were a poor creature of no account, but for you my heart is filled with anger. Dear friends, soon this reluctance of yours will lead to something much worse than its cause. Put some shame in your hearts, each of you, for yourselves and for the anger of others. A great struggle is on us now. Hektor, master of the war-cry, has broken the gates and their long cross-bar, and is fighting now in strength by our ships!"

~ Homer, The Illiad

164 lmg  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:27:51am

#153:

Does that make Asterisk the only city that is the capital of two different places?

Israel only claims West Asterisk, while the "Palestinians" claim West Asterisk, which they call "al Octothorpe".

Well at least, these Greeks are NOT real Hellenes, who were oneof the most gifted peoples in history.

Pardon my ignorance, but what happened to the real Hellenes?

A milliHelen is the amount of beauty required to launch one ship.
165 urthshu  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:29:51am
for the West has based its morality and its justice on the ideas of the European enlightenment.

I don't know. I think we can lose just about anything in our culture-including english- and still be the good ole US, provided the Constititution and founding documents were adhered to. Just my assessment, mind.

166 odin  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:30:48am

Apart from what Charles suggested, the Olympic Games could be improved:

1) the burning olympic torch should be replaced with a burning American flag

2) the olympic flame that burns while the games are on, should be replaced by burning pictures of Bush and Rummy.

167 halldor  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:38:07am

I don't know, from time to time I think Yeats had it about right:

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Though Yeats was certainly no lover of democracy.

168 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:41:26am

Promethea

I was born and raised in Greece, currently residing in California {happy sigh}, but I go back every year for a few weeks.

So, you were right ;-)

{I ♥ my Governator }

169 David 'Parisian Insider'  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:41:44am

#158 promethea
There are many reasons. To quickly summarise:
Firstly, France considers itself (and Europe in general) quite superior to the US in terms of history, culture, refinement an so on. For most French, the Americans are just a bunch of illiterate morons, cowboys, etc...In terms of history, it is true that you find in Europe a culture, an architecture, traditions, that do not exist in the States, which is a very young country. Speaking for myself, I can tell you that the US is a very strange country for me. It is another world for most Europeans. Whilst the pple share basically the same value, life, environment etc... is completely different. I feel more at home in any European country than in the US. But, at least for me it doesn't show any kind of superiority from Europe, it is just a different culture, full stop. Americans have many other things to be proud of.

Secondly, there is a big economic/geostrategic struggle between the US and Europe.

Thirdly, France is jealous of the US' superiority. France has never abandoned his old memories of its intellectual leadership..... in the 18th century.

For all these reasons, and many more, the French think that fighting against the States will help them regain some of their past glory and influence. The media and the politicians are carrying on this task with unabated constancy. The popuylation has been brainwashed for decades. It s a shame, to say the least.

170 Promethea  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:47:29am

#169 David 'Parisian Insider' . . .

Thanks for your answer. It kind of confirms my thinking that the anti-Americanism isn't really new--it's just that we've suddenly noticed it.

I, for one, never paid much attention when De Gaulle dropped out of NATO, for example. Maybe there were the same kinds of anti-American cartoons then in Le Monde that we see today. The internet has just made us more aware of European opinion.

That's my view--for what it's worth. No facts, just thoughts.

171 David 'Parisian Insider'  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:48:14am

Ah, and there is also the Eurabian thingy. Adopting the Arabs' point of view towards the US and Israel was part of the package, wasn't it?

172 Emma  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:51:03am

Fuck the Olympics.
I'm worried about the security risks, and the Greeks are waaay behind schedule in the construction. Even when it's a sacrifice for the athletes that have been training, I agree with #3 bigel

173 Promethea  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:54:21am

#171 David 'Parisian Insider" . . .

The Eurabian thing is most peculiar. I can see glamorizing the Arab culture if you don't know much about it. But when its defects (women-bashing, etc.) are creating social problems right in front of you, then it's strange that this becomes the governing ideology.

True, oil is very important, but it's not as if Europe is starved for oil. There are still many available sources, including Russia and Nigeria.

174 Kathianne  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:58:17am
#81 FH 5/16/2004 11:31AM PST

You are so right. This reminds me of that novel by Herman Wouk, NOW is the time to get out of Paris and Munich. Now, before it's too late. Not just the Jews, but Christians too. Your leaders will not help you, it's up to you.

175 Ed Moran:Abu Buh-Bye Doubly Stupid!!!!!!!!!!  Sun, May 16, 2004 11:59:55am

Not to fact check anybody, but a temperature of 95F and humidity of 100% is very unlikely, as it would imply a dewpoint temperature of 95F.

Dewpoints, even in the tropics, rarely exceed about 27 or 28C. These locations will have 100% humidity only at the coolest time of the day, when temperature matches dewpoint.


Finished mowing the lawn just in time as showers/t-showers have formed on the "sea-breeze front" and are slowly moving inland.

Just a five minute long heavy shower, nothing like last week.

176 Darleen  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:08:56pm

Zork, Zulubaby

When are we California lizards going to get together in the flesh????

BTW Zork, Ahhnold is The Man!

177 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:09:27pm

Ed Moran

LOL, I'm glad you fact-check my ass, because it's most likely I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to weather. Here's what I know: Extremely hot and extremely humid. Muggy, smoggy, stuffy (these are the scientific terms ;-)
Are there any charts with avg. temps for Athens in August?

178 Darleen  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:11:23pm

Emma

If Israel participates, we must go. In a daydream, I'd love to see our athletes enter the stadium during opening ceremonies wearing yellow armbands with the Star of David as a general "up yours" to the Judenhass crowd!

179 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:12:20pm

Darleen, zulubaby

My house, anytime, drinks are on me! (I live the closest to the Governator ;-)
Plan for an evening of margaritas and Ahnold-drooling! (Can we drool a little over Rummy, too?)

180 Darleen  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:15:45pm

Zork

I'll bring some towels so we can drool away!! And fresh strawberries from some local fields around me so we can vary those margaritas!!

181 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:17:26pm

Darleen, it's a plan. Now if we could only lure zulubaby over here ;-)

182 halldor  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:19:37pm

#173 Promethea

The Eurabian thing has been going on for a long time now, ever since the 1970s, when France began to build the nuclear complex in Iraq, rich Arabs began to come to Europe on shopping trips, Gaddafi bought 10 per cent of Fiat, Al Fayed started to eye Harrods in London, and Sheikh Yamani was talking about buying fresh water from European lakes and rivers to export to drought-affected Arab countries. 1975 was the year in which the journal "Eurabia" (published in Paris) first appeared.

183 Darleen  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:25:23pm

Oh good godfrey,

I just had a look Athens Olympic Mascots. They are animated bowling pins with elephantitus feet.

And the US was mocked for its Disneyesque Sam the Eagle mascot for the Los Angeles 1984 games? At least Sam was well drawn!!

But Athena and Phevos ???

:::::::::shudder:::::::::::

184 SoCalJustice  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:32:11pm

(#168) zorkmidden j.

Got a question for you:

Do Greek Jews generally have Greek last names, or Jewish (Ashkenazi) last names, or what?

Efaristo (sp?).

185 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:36:39pm
Athena and Phevos

They look like roosters to me.. or just funny-looking chickens..

186 Timid Lurker  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:37:01pm

Just going to touch on a few points that have appeared in this thread. First of all, I would agree that the salvation of Western culture will come from the United States. This is probably because a good portion of the country still has a "Frontier Mentality" which lends itself to values of hard-work, free enterprise, cowboy(and girl)ness, etc. In fact, I would venture to say the United States is the true torchbearer of Western culture. The Founding Fathers managed to take the values of the enlightenment and lay the foundations for a truly great society. The Europeans took those values and gave the world the French Revolution, the Napoleonic Wars, and 50 years of repression. So even if Europe caves in, Western civilization will survive in the US and a few other former British colonies, such as Hong Kong.

Two novels that I would recommend on the subject are:
Camp of the Saints, by Jean Raspail. Just a warning though, this author is incredibly racist, but he makes a good point. Secondly, Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, though I suspect most of the minions have read this one already.

187 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:38:59pm

SoCalJustice

No, mostly Sephardic (Benveniste, etc.). A few Ashkenazi, but the majority of the communities were Sephardic, no Greek last names.

Parakalo ;-)

188 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:41:59pm

Darleen, zorkmidden:

Plan for an evening of margaritas and Ahnold-drooling!

Arnie isn't my scene. Can I still come for the margaritas?

189 SoCalJustice  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:44:14pm

(#187) zorkmidden johnson

Aha. So it's the Sepharadim who've driven the Greeks into nutbar conspiracy land.

Nice to know that's not only an Ashkenazic talent.

190 Darleen  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:50:53pm

Zulu, Zork

You got mail!! :-)

Zulu, sure 'nuf on the margaritas ... just indulge zork and me a bit, eh?? ;-)

191 Ed Moran:Abu Buh-Bye Doubly Stupid!!!!!!!!!!  Sun, May 16, 2004 12:55:19pm

Months Average
Temperatures
January 12 C - 53 F
February 13 C - 55 F
March 16 C - 60 F
April 19 C - 66 F
May 25 C - 77 F
June 29 C - 84 F
July 32 C - 89 F
August 32 C - 89 F
September 28 C - 82 F
October 23 C - 73 F
November 18 C - 64 F
December 14 C - 57 F

That is pretty warm, actually, 32C.

Houston, on the other hand, despite the cooling breezes from the Gulf of Mexico (compare to Dallas!) is warmer than Athens, with June, July and August averages of 91F, 94F and 93F

Of course, most people in HOU have indoor air conditioning, not sure about Greece.

192 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:01:17pm

zulubaby, of course! :-)

As a matter of fact the margaritas wouldn't be the same without you!

SoCalJustice

It's so weird to walk in a city full of streets with Jewish names (Saadi Levi, Baron Hirsch, etc.), and to see no Jewish presence at all. When I was little I thought Cohen and Levi were Greek names, I had no idea I lived in a Jewish city. I had to leave Greece to find that out.

193 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:05:51pm

Ed Moran

This chart makes it look a lot cooler than it feels. Wouldn't the humidity make the temp feel much higher? And no, there isn't much of indoor A/C. The really nice hotels of course have it, but I've stayed in a medium-priced hotel near Syntagma Square, and I had to wrap myself with wet sheets in order to sleep..

194 Promethea  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:15:27pm

#182 Halldor . . .

I went away for awhile. It's a beautiful spring day here. Thanks for the info on Eurabia.

195 Frank IBC, Abdu-'t-Trollprexa  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:16:38pm

Zorkmidden -

It's my understanding that prior to the Holocaust, Ladino was the lingua franca of Salonika.

196 Buckeye Abroad  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:18:28pm

#157 David

Alternatively, if and when Europe wakes up, it might be really bloody.

Unless their is a huge change of political direction and current trends, it would have to be bloody. I don't foresee the media propaganda mills to stop churning out their lop sided views, nor do I see any leadership coming from EU, so I want hold my breath. There is hope, though slim as it might be, that the Europe will evolve in time to save themselves.

And I strongly suspect the Jews will be fair game..

When has it ever been not the case?

197 SoCalJustice  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:18:55pm

(#192) zorkmidden j.

I'd love to visit Thessalonika - didn't make it on my first trip. And it's a good thing I don't speak Greek because I'm quite sure the conversation would warp my fragile, little mind.

198 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:22:42pm
199 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:26:48pm

Frank IBC

Absolutely correct about the lingua franca. Before the Holocaust there were more Ladino newspapers than Greek. There's a cd out of old Sephardic songs "Primavera en Salonico". It is absolutely beautiful and haunting.

SoCalJustice

Salonica was beautiful, but not anymore. It's dirty and crowded, and antisemitic, antiamerican graffiti everywhere. Was there last year during the E.U. summit, and there were anarchist/communist riots, they even burned the trees in the parks, besides destroying shops, cars, and buildings. My nose burned for two days from the clouds of tear gas that were drifitng across the town.

200 SoCalJustice  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:29:04pm

(#198) bigel

Why should you want to visit a vile Nazi shithole like Greece?

Why should you want to visit a vile Nazi shithole like Europe at all?


The food is really good.

201 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:32:05pm
202 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:33:35pm

#200 SoCalJustice

The food is really good.

LOL
Not as good as my mom's cooking though.. ;-)

203 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:36:26pm

bigel

What about Mexican food? Tacos al carbon, mmm!

And life should be declared not worth living without salsa and chips..

204 SoCalJustice  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:44:46pm

(#199) zorkmidden j.

You just persuaded me.

(#201) bigel

Many countries have great food - and I certainly agree about China and the U.S.

I was really just teasing. But I don't always want [___fill_in_the_blank___]* to determine my travel plans for me.

I wanted to see the Pyramids at Giza, Luxor, Abu Simbel, Petra in Jordan, France, Spain, Italy, the U.K., the Greek Islands, etc. without worrying about the fact that much of the world hates Jews.

I don't want to limit my tourist options to only Disney World and Israel, and certain places in Asia.

Besides, remember this and this?

*anti-Semites, Nazis, Arabs, Muslims, etc.

205 Globular Cluster  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:50:37pm

It's probably too late in the thread to comment on the actual topic, but this is so wrong. No understanding of the psychology of America haters.

206 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 1:55:28pm

bigel, SoCalJustice

I've been desperately arguing on the side of reason with my compatriots since 1999, when I saw the most virulent forms of antiamericanism/antisemitism emerging. This has spread so totally out of control, it has become the everyday norm. I honestly am at a loss of words, there isn't an argument to be won there at all, because there's no reason or logic left.

I visit Greece because I have to, not because I want to (trust me I get depressed for weeks, before I have to leave the U.S.) I would also like to visit more places in Greece, but it's so unpleasant for me, I just go, see the family, and leave as quickly as possible.

207 SoCalJustice  Sun, May 16, 2004 2:06:47pm

(#206) zorkmidden j.

The fact that most Euros seem deadset on refusing to learn from history is entirely depressing. They think replacing the word "Jew" with "Israel" is saving them from doing just that - and then there are those like Mikis Theodorakis who forget to switch up the words.

It's scary.

Meanwhile, 60 Minutes is about to profile France's Muslim/Arab population - which has reached 10% of the total. Their subject? A Muslim girl who was gangraped in one of the Muslim ghettos in Paris.

208 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 2:17:08pm

SoCalJustice
And he (Theodorakis) used the fact that he wrote the music for "Mauthausen" for the "See, I don't hate Jews, look how I felt sorry for them" cliche. Typical antisemite, love the Jewish people when they're dying, hate them when they're alive. And still, no one notices.

209 Leah  Sun, May 16, 2004 2:18:39pm

Bigel: Heres gonna be the deal when Muslims take over Europe. The COUSINS of their European Relatives in the US and in Canada and in Australia..will say: "COME ON IN"..and we will have to deal with all their "schmutz" all over again. (we are ALREADY dealing with Euro-Trash Bigotry) ... We will have to deal with all the crap we ran away FROM. I shutter to think. They are gonna come HERE with all their "tudes" that we in America and Canada and Australia worked so HARD to get rid of.

As for Jesse Owens and NO OTHERS MENTIONED when we talk of this "incident". HOW dare they decide that WE, Jews, didnt even rate a mention in that specific incident in History. Just how --LIKE-- Hitler is that attitude? It NEVER fails to gaul me that whenever the 1936 Olympics are spoken of there is this big discussion about Owens..and thats ALL there is. Just like today some Jew (Bigel-- today its you) has to "remind" people that THAT isnt ALL there was to the story. Why DONT they know that integral part of the story like they know about Owens? HUH? BOTH are important. OR are we so UNIMPORTANT that its OK to just leave us out of history?

Gauls the hell out of me.

210 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 2:26:07pm

Leah, not to jump in, but why don't they commemorate the dead Israeli athletes (Munich 72) with a moment's silence? This should be established as a permanent part of the Olympics, nobody should be allowed to forget that. Yet, from what I understand, the IOC refuses to do this.

211 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 16, 2004 2:26:42pm
212 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 2:44:42pm

bigel, when my dad was alive we talked for hours on the phone every day and as much as I loved him and wanted to see him, I did explain that I would rather pay huge phone bills than travel there (my dad was also a sane person).

All my family and friends know how strongly I feel about this, and I have dropped many people from my life in Greece (including some relatives), after stating to them (in a letter, so they don't forget) how their hatred and love of conspiracy theories has ruined my relationship with them. They all think I'm nuts now, but seriously, I don't give a damn.

After this year (I still have to clear up family affairs), I doubt that I'll set foot there any time soon. I'm totally serious about this, you have no idea how bad it is there, you feel the hatred in the air.

213 Frank IBC, Abdu-'t-Trollprexa  Sun, May 16, 2004 2:46:39pm

Zorkmidden -

I have a tape which I borrowed from a friend four years ago(!) , "Under Aegean Moons", by "Voice of The Turtle" - Music of the Spanish Jews of Rhodes and Salonika. Beautiful.

Also "Avre Tu Puerta" by Galit - also in Ladino, but I'm not sure what area it's from.

And several years ago, I heard some singers from the Sephardic community in Sarajevo. As beautiful as the other two.

214 Promethea  Sun, May 16, 2004 2:58:13pm

#212 zorkmidden Johnson . . .

After this year (I still have to clear up family affairs), I doubt that I'll set foot there any time soon. I'm totally serious about this, you have no idea how bad it is there, you feel the hatred in the air.

I know I keep asking people the same question over and over. . . but how do you explain this intense hatred of Americans and Jews? I know we were "bad" in 1970 or so by supporting General Somebody (sorry, don't feel like googling). But, history is full of these bad things.

I don't even hate the Germans despite the Holocaust. What's going on in Greece that making them nuts? I read that there is only one tiny mosque in the entire country, so they can't be such Muslim supporters.

Thanks for your analysis.

215 Leah  Sun, May 16, 2004 3:01:06pm

Zork: Its..so DISCUSTING that they wouldnt take a minute..to do that. Im not an expert on the Olympics and the people and institution that run it. In the history of the Olympics and the study of the People of the Olympics, the true telling of it..THERE you will understand why they would resist taking half a sec out to commemorate what happened.

If Im not mistaken it was in Atlanta that the US FORCED the Olympics to show a teeny weeny bit of respect.

BASTARDS.

I HATE it that some Jew has to ALWAYS pipe up..saying "remember the REST of the story?" when they talk about the 36' Olympics. Its disrespectful to our group that it isnt taught right along with Owens. And it makes US...seem petty ..that we have to pipe up from the "Peanut Gallery" on this.
-------------------------------------------

And while Im at it..and that it is somewhat connected..WHY do we always have to remind people of HANK GREENBERG. I....just learned the story on him. I....just got a look at this big ole..stunning ole..guy. And one HELL of a Baseball Player. WHy do we also have to pipe up...with the information?

We barely get Kofax in half the time..well..better than half..THAT WAS some gorgeous guy and some player.


And why is this so important to me and others??..cause of couse it breakes the Stereotype and spits in the face of Jew Haters...Thats why I want to talk about it SOME of the time, ONCE in a Purim ..maybe.

216 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 3:03:36pm

Frank IBC

The difference in the music of that time (pre-WWII) between the Greek and the Sephardi communities is also interesting. The Ladino songs were very melodic and lyrical, in a western style and sense, whereas Greek traditional music (even though it varied from place to place) sounds more eastern, and choppy (I can't explain it any better)

I had "Primavera en Salonico" on tape and passed it to all my friends in the U.S. I made copies though, because I have many-many friends who think four years is not a long time! ;-)

217 Leah  Sun, May 16, 2004 3:03:53pm

ZORK: How DARE they set it up where you HAVE to leave your own Country? Mind if I get INDIGNANT for you? SHEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Im so sick of it.

218 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 3:17:00pm

Promethea

Excellent question, and be prepared for the semi-rant:

Yes, there was a dictatorship in Greece from 1967-1974, supposedly supported by the US (Clinton apologized to Greece for this, while he was in office). What makes it unimportant, is the fact that since the birth of the modern Greek Nation (late 19th century), there have been dictatorships in Greece every few years. So why pick the last one?

Enter PASOK, the socialist party, with its charismatic leader, Papandreou, who taught economics in Berkeley during the junta, and who proceeded to win Greek hearts and minds by demonizing the U.S. PASOK came to power in 1981, and stayed in power unitl 2004. There was one election in 1987 (I think) that the Conservatives won, but they didn't last very long. This whole time, every PASOK politician actively engaged in antiamerican propaganda as a way of distracting the people from seeing a country that was falling apart around them (high unemployment, corruption, horrible health care, etc.)

Papandreou's next step was to invite Arafat (and greet him as head of state) and his goons to Greece, as a goodwill gesture to the Arabs. So now, here kicks in the demonization of Israel. Even though PLO terrorists committed all sorts of attacks in Greece during the 80s, PASOK cultivated the image of the poor, oppressed Palestinians. It didn't take long after that for the swastika graffiti to appear in the streets.

219 Thousand Sons  Sun, May 16, 2004 3:22:38pm

Invade Greece. Steal their baklava.

220 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 3:24:27pm

I wanted to add to my above post:

PASOK has also carefully cultivated an atmosphere of victimisation, poor Greeks, oppressed by the Americans, just like the poor Palestinians, oppressed by Israel.

The Greek Orthodox Church, is also doing nothing to battle antisemitism, actually they're feeding it by seeing Jewish conspiracies everywhere. They want nothing more than every Greek to be an Orthodox Christian, to make their coffers richer, couldn't care less about the Jews, and practically promote Jew-hatred.

221 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 3:25:58pm

Thousand Sons

LOL, What the heck, go ahead, we stole it from the Turks!

222 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 3:27:03pm

Leah, thank you, I only wish more Greeks would get upset by this, but they're all slumbering peacefully.

223 Promethea  Sun, May 16, 2004 3:50:55pm

Thanks for the information. It fits what I vaguely knew. (So much to read, so much to learn, so much to REMEMBER after you read it and learn it, sigh).

Well, this completes my survey for today (interviews with David 'Paris Insider' and zorkmidden about why anti-Americanism in France and Greece.

Conclusions: it's easy for politicians to demonize the successful. Hence the anti-Americanism and anti-Judaism (anti-Zionism).

An analogy: as a child in Chicago, I really truly hated the New York Yankees. Why? Cuz the Yankees were always the winners.

This conclusion is so profound that you may hear me refer to it again, since I don't know how many people are still reading this thread.

224 WriterMom  Sun, May 16, 2004 3:55:18pm

OK:

Too wired on cartoons now to read every comment...Zorky-where are you from?

I say: GO USA GO!!!! GO ISRAEL GO!!!!

And, lastly-I did still see 'let's drool about Rummy' and drinks being served, so I'm still in if it's still happy hour.

225 Promethea  Sun, May 16, 2004 3:55:22pm

zorkmidden . . .

Thinking further about my Yankee analogy, I remembered that many Israelis also dislike Americans and think we're stupid.

Same principle applies.

So I guess the conclusion re the Olympics would be--let's wave the flag whenever we Americans win a contest. To hell with the whiny losers.

226 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 4:01:12pm

Promethea

I will certainly be waving and cheering at our athletes on this coast, you do your share in your neck of the woods, and I hope our athletes PROUDLY wave the U.S. Flag with every medal they win! (and I hope they win all of them except a few gold medals for the Israeli team)

WriterMom

Salonica, Greece, lol. By now everyone is probably sick of me repeating this.. ;-)

227 WriterMom  Sun, May 16, 2004 4:04:18pm

Zorky-coooool...

Gotta put screamy kids to bed. Will check in later.

228 Promethea  Sun, May 16, 2004 4:13:20pm

Bye for now. I'm going to go watch the Simpsons, which apparently has "jumped the shark" and will then come back and probably rant.

It's so discouraging. There are too many ignorant idiots in the mass media. Won't they be surprised when they won't be able to publish their anti-government material under Sharia.

But, of course, that's way in the future so it won't affect them at all.

I see I've already started my rant.

;)

229 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 4:23:30pm

Promethea, cya ;-)

230 William™  Sun, May 16, 2004 4:27:03pm

Out of 500+ athletes, I'm sure there are some who will tell these spineless idiots to 'shove it.'
 

231 Globular Cluster  Sun, May 16, 2004 4:40:23pm

How long before all Americans become self-hating Jews? Or have we become that already?

Can't wave the flag... Can't show pride in your nationality/religion/beliefs/who you are.

Why don't we just deliberately lose all the events in the olympics to make the poor, suffering other countries feel better?

Matter of fact, when I raise my kids, I'm gonna tell them to deliberately get bad grades so as not to humiliate the other kids.

There can be no good relations without mediocrity.

232 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 4:40:46pm

WriterMom, Jheka has a kitten named Rummy! You should see him he's almost as cute as the real thing ;-)

Jheka's blog

233 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Sun, May 16, 2004 5:21:50pm

Calling rumor control.

Both Charles and zulubaby (#137) said they felt the earth move at the same time.

Should we be averting our eyes here, or what?


D. Edgren

234 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Sun, May 16, 2004 5:26:45pm

Oh Man! The I read Darleen's post at #176.

I hear the 'too-much-fun-alarm' going off.

Really loud.


D. Edgren

235 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Sun, May 16, 2004 5:27:47pm

Re previous post.

The=Then

Sorry for any inconvenience.


D. Edgren

236 WriterMom  Sun, May 16, 2004 5:32:03pm

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh. My eyes are burning.

Multi-coloured tushies on Jheka's blog! AHHHHHHHH!

But the Rummy cat is mighty cute.

D. Edgren LOL!!!

I'm pouring pina coladas on the music thread.

237 Karly  Sun, May 16, 2004 5:59:07pm

What events are the palistinians competeing in....god I dont want to see one of them in a spedo....that flowing black gown and headscarf will really slow a gal down as she is running the 100 meters.

238 zulubaby  Sun, May 16, 2004 6:09:13pm

Karly, too funny!

239 geezer  Sun, May 16, 2004 6:29:43pm

What crock of sheet. Maybe we should march in the opening parade naked with bags over our heads carrying a white flag

240 CPL. Menno  Sun, May 16, 2004 7:03:36pm

Just heard part of something on Greek radio; apparently two Brits [I believe] snuck into one of the Olympic stadiums [not exactly sure what their motives were, but not threatening], and the Greeks are spinning more conspiracy theories claiming that the US and UK are sending agents to sneak into areas just to prove that Greece can't handle security for the Olympic games.

Mind-boggling.

241 Andjam  Sun, May 16, 2004 7:06:08pm

What'd really annoy the PC types is if the Americans were to wave Iraqi flags.

Talking of which ... six Iraqi athletes are headed to Athens, as is Iraq's soccer team after beating Saudi Arabia 3-1. And for the first time since 1984, Uday is no longer head of the Iraq National Olympic Committee or torturing athletes.

#138 Img:

Given the potential for corruption and bias among the European judges, we might not need to hold back at all. Remember the figure skating scandal two years ago? (French and Russian judges screwing the Canadians.)

Replace "skating scandal" with "oil-for-bribes scandal" and "Canadians" with "Iraqis", and the sentence would still be true. Says something, doesn't it?

242 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 7:29:33pm

CPL. Menno

British journalists have been testing security holes in the Olympics stadia, and a Times reporter snuck in and wrote about it (see link). The Greeks went nuts, but then more British journalists did the same thing, so now Greece is sure it's a conpiracy, lol

Olympic Report Angers Athens

243 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 7:31:50pm

It's a conspiracy. Conpiracy is not even a word, zorkmidden, you non-previewing idiot!

244 Pamela  Sun, May 16, 2004 7:40:59pm

I wish I was rich and could buy over 500 flags for USA, and Israel and in remembrance the Israeli athelets in Munich and put up all the flags soemwhere on flat open space in Colorado, just like these guys who put up all these crosses on So Ca beaches.

245 hepcat  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:02:05pm

Athens2004.com
It's interesting that Israel is listed under a European heading rather then under the Middle Eastern heading.

246 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:14:46pm

hepcat

We had that discussion a few months ago, I don't remember in which thread (where's zulubaby when we need her), and someone said that in sports, Israel is always listed as a European country. I don't know why that is, but it did intrigue me as well...

247 Mockingbird  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:24:42pm

A lot of the hi-tech equipment to be used at the Olympics is designed and made in Israel.

If only the Israeli Foreign Office would say "Give us the respect of using the right name of our capital city -- that was our capital city when Athens was a primitive village -- or use your own technology."

Unfortunately, even here in Israel the Foreign Office is full of wimps.

248 SoCalJustice  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:45:38pm

hepcat and zorkmidden

Israel is considered "European" for purposes of qualifying for Olympic events (and World Cup soccer and other regional competitions).

Some sports require a round of regionals before qualifying for the Olympic (or World) games (see Andjam's #241 about the Iraqis beating the Saudis to qualify).

Now, can you imagine the Israelis in the same qualifying group as the Iraqis or the Saudis?

Europe has allowed Israel to compete against European tems for qualifying, because they know there would be havoc if Israel was in the "Middle East" qualifying region.

It's a decent political concession to stave off inevitable boycotts and forfeits by whiny, cowardly Arab countries.

249 SoCalJustice  Sun, May 16, 2004 8:48:52pm

tems = teams

/pimf

250 zorkmidden johnson  Sun, May 16, 2004 9:06:20pm

Thank you SoCalJustice, I thought it was you that had explained it to me back then as well, but not being the sports fan, it didn't stick with me :-)

251 papijoe  Mon, May 17, 2004 2:36:16am
The Greeks went nuts

No offense, zorkmidden and Cpl Menno but the Greeks lost their marbles a long time ago.

252 Uhhuh  Mon, May 17, 2004 3:57:54am

Hey, feel free to Boycott the Olympics.
Might go a ways towards cleaning up the games, in terms of doping.

Too bad the USOC is more interested in PR than punishing athletes who juice.
"It must have been in that innocent bag of nutritional supplements, that's it!"

253 Smit  Mon, May 17, 2004 4:56:03am

#252 - Yeah 'cos we all know it's only the yanks who dope.

/Jealous Eurasian

254 Owl  Mon, May 17, 2004 5:36:19am

Not only should they wave the flag, but they should also give the arab world the one finger salute. Hmmmmpf.


We shouldn't start answering to "the world". Not now, not ever.


owl
patriot and American

255 owl  Mon, May 17, 2004 5:44:43am

They can overrun America by going through the barrel of my Mossberg. Maybe an all out takeover attempt would be rason for the South to rise again. ;) LOL

256 zorkmidden johnson  Mon, May 17, 2004 6:03:41am

papijoe, LOL

257 SoCalJustice  Mon, May 17, 2004 6:52:58am

(#250) zorkmidden j.

It was probably me. I'm repetitive and monotonous like that. ;-)

258 zorkmidden johnson  Mon, May 17, 2004 8:48:15am

#257 SoCalJustice

I, for one, appreciate that quality in people :-)

259 Frank IBC, Abdu-'t-Trollprexa  Mon, May 17, 2004 5:52:30pm

#233 Zorkmidden -

I was scrolling from bottom to top, and was wondering who this mean person was who was beating up on my friend. :)

260 zorkmidden johnson  Mon, May 17, 2004 8:47:55pm

Frank IBC, LOL :-)


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