It'll be intersesting to see how this issue is portrayed by the mainstream media.

First?

Where is Madalyn Murray O'Hair when we need her?

Muslims to their fellow citizens: "Screw you kufr".

And this is only the beginning.

This is a major deal.There are going to be some sorry Islamazoids

Mmmm, first.

The adhan, coming soon to your town, five times a day.

Because the mosque is a religious institution and because it is broadcasting from its own property, the city has no control over the calls to prayer beyond regulations contained in the noise ordinance.

OTOH, wall-mounted loudspeakers are notoriously susceptible to 30.06 rifle fire. I'm just sayin'.

It is very important that this issue be pursued to its ultimate conclusion--banning of the call to prayer. If the ACLU doesn't take a stand on this against the public prayers, it should be relieved of its tax-exempt status.

I wonder if the city government and police department will have the balls to enforce their own ordinances - or will they back down in the name of political correctness?

I'm betting on the latter. It happens too often.

#6,

.30-06? Or a .22... much quieter!

I also am just sayin.

You on the motorcycle... You two girls... tell your friends. The Blues Brothers. Rhythm and blues review. One night only. and... it's ladies night.

Having a bunch of folks with air horns standing around nearby might get their attention too.

Well at the risk of being accused of moral equivalency, I have never enjoyed, liked or appreciated church bells pealing early Sunday morning to announce a sabbath that isn't mine, calling people to rejoice over a saviour who isn't mine either. What is one more call to prayer in the caphony of other people's religions? Personally I'd like all public calls to worship banned. I'll happily support any movement that calls for silencing BOTH church bells AND Muslim prayer broadcasts.

This fuss strikes me as being about equivalent to all the fuss over Sunday shopping. I recall hearing many impassioned speeches about how society needs a sabbath day and the stores should be closed on Sunday because that is the sabbath and how can families maintain their unity if they have to start making choices about working or not owrking on the sabbath? As a Jew who regularly makes that choice every Saturday, watching the Jewish community deal with it as a whole, I had little sympathy for the wailing.

Honestly, folks, there are things worth getting all upset about and then there are times even Muslims have a real point.

#2 forever banned

Where is Madalyn Murray O'Hair when we need her?

Don't know where she is (pushing up daisies or scattered) now, but at least she's no longer stuffed in a 55-gallon drum.

I used to listen to her 30 years ago, on Ed Busch's late night radio talk show in Dallas. Very weird.

Here is a suggestion:

owners of private property might put out
loudspeakers and play loudly something like
"Praise the Satan" at exactly the same time
as adhan.
I'd like to see a legal argument against doing that.
And if several people do that, it will be louder than the muslim call to slaughter.

I should add hear in Winnipeg the local churches braodcast their church bells and often hymns as well over loudspeakers Sunday morning. I would prefer to sleep.

Why is it that so many American Muslims seem bent on fomenting adversarial relationships with those among whom they live? And why, in our political correctness, are we unwilling to admit that assimilation is the last thing on their minds?

So many other groups have come here and managed to practice their religion freely, without adhering to some sort of religious 'manifest destiny', a/k/a dhimmitude. Many religion groups have co-existed here without the need to eclipse others' faith(s), but the Muslims seem determined to break this tradition of tolerance and respect.

I'm at a loss to explain or understand.

"hear in Winnipeg" smacks forehead with open palm. Now that was classic Freudian slip.

#9 the bluebird in your soul

Use only Kabbalah™ bullets
Accept no substitutes!
Also just saying

Does anybody, other than Muslim, in the States know what the call to prayer sounds like at 4:30Am?

And I also happen to think advocating shooting out the speakers is about the equivalent of advocating spraying swatikas on synagogue walls because you don't like the sight of those bearded dressed in black curly hair guys on your street on Saturday.

Imagine the reation if some Muslim group started advocating shooting out "Jesus Saves" signs in front of Southern Baptist Churches and such.

This will make for disturbing inconsistencies when compared to the Church bells, however one could make the argument the bells are just for telling what time it is, not to come to prayer specifically.

That would be a weak argument. Either way, if the decibel level is above a certain limit, they can be charged with disrupting the peace.

Then hold you breath until someone sues the churches for the same thing...

I'm tellin' ya folks, Jefferson had it right.

Religion, in that corner.

Government, in that corner.

And everyone in the middle leave everyone else the hell alone.

Someone with a speaker set at the same decibel should recite passages from the bible during each call to prayer.

Or just play Metallica.

I smell blood;-/ you know the Tili-tili dam dam, tili tili dam dam...

Arabook

Really, Muslims cannot have it both ways-- either there is fervent, immutable, literal interpretation of the Qur'an, or there is not-- Where does the Qur'an allow the use of loudspeakers? Let them have their call to prayer, and religious freedom, just no modern United Satans technology to deliver it.

I think we may have just found the perfect venue for Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music".Crank it up,baby!

#12 Judith, #22 Tman:

When Muslim countries start allowing the CONSTRUCTION of churches, much less the ringing of church bells on Sunday, your parallels will be much more germaine.

ploome henini-I disagree church bells are just about telling time when they ring on Sunday morning to announce it is time to come to church, the original purpose ot them incidentally, a call to prayer, and when they play hymns. Hymns played over loudspoeakers are definately calls to prayer.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you accept Muslim calls to prayer or you silence the church bells and hymns over loudspeakers.

Personally I'm all for peace and quiet. If someone wants to hear either church bells or calls to prayer, they should get a DVD player with earphones or arrange morning wakeup calls on their cellphones. We have the technology. Nobody needs to have their day disturbed by the racket from someone else's religion.

#19 Cynic

Does anybody, other than Muslim, in the States know what the call to prayer sounds like at 4:30Am?

Accompanied by the sound of a 30.06 (or a .308)?

Let them have their call to prayer, and religious freedom, just no modern United Satans technology to deliver it.

How did the Muslims ever practice their religion before western scientists invented loudspeakers?

Is it me or does the town's name, Hamtramck (geez, how do you pronounce that?) somewhat ironic?

If the State of Michigan bends over and grabs ankle on this one, then the Islamic Virus will spread throughout terrorist enclaves within the U.S. like wildfire. The characteristic, proscribed yodeling from a minaret will be seen as an act of "honorable defiance" against the infidels (spit). They will be encouraged to continue to "ham it up" similar to the antics of the Terrorstinians in Gaza/Left Bank. Can't people see this as a cultural characteristic and not an isolated case?

The terrorists know they are in a war, but we as a nation are yet to wake up to the reality.

Stop them NOW!

#12 #15 Judith

You only comment on the bells being tolled on Sunday.

For Muslims the "Call to Prayer" is everyday!

Sorry Dread. You are applying a double standard to Muslims here based on the behavior of Muslims there. Not all of the ones here are terrorists. A few actually fled oppression in their homelands and came west to have religious freedom here. Your excuse for not giving Muslims the same rights as Christians doesn't wash in a free society. You either silence Christians too or listen to the calls to prayer of Muslims.

If they did the old fashion way (curved flat porcylin backdrop with very loud shouter, no microphone/speaker) i wouldnt have a problem with it. If the town doesnt allow churchbells but allows this then theres a problem. But low volume and cant hear it in your house at the wee hours of the morning? much more forgiving even if over a loudspeaker.

But if this showed up in my neck of the woods, blaring through my closed windows at all hours of the day, waking me up...im just saying.

#23, Ms. Andi-

As much as I'm a personal fan of Metallica (trying to copy Kirk's chops is always an exercise in humility) I think the point - for those who wish to make it - might be better gotten across with Iron Maiden's "Number of the Beast" ...

#29 Judith:
I don't want to hear Christian hymns blasted over a loudspeaker either (or nusach, for that matter), but

the original purpose ot them incidentally, a call to prayer

there's a great deal of difference between bells and a loudpeaker call along the lines of:

Jesus is LORD! Come worship HIM! Only HE is the way to Heaven! Jesus is LORD, and Christianity is the only TRUE RELIGION! JESUS IS LORD!

For that matter, there's a big difference between my imaginary example above and the broadcast of a hymn.

# 16 Sharona

I have asked myself the same question about why forment adversarial situations.
But it seems clear to me that Muslims want to let their neighbors know that they have the one true way to heaven, and they have no problem jamming it down everyone elses throat.
It is also clear to me that they will have no problem slashing their neighbors throats once they have a simple majority in any given area, if Allah is not accepted as the one true religion.
There does seem to be a "Manifest Destiny" written into the Koran about Islam taking over the world. So even if American Muslims might not be willing to be suicide bombers today, they still have the underlying belief in the correctness of their faith, and want to see it accepted.

heh, you still have church bells in the States ?

Takes me back. We used to have them in Britain as well. I miss them.

Cynic-Same issue nonetheless. I would be very happy if the Sunday morning cacophany were banned. I am all for banning ANY kind of religious crap over noise speakers.

I read somewhere that in some parts of New York the Lubavitch drive arounf Friday afternoon in happy vans broadcasting candle lighting times and such. If that is true, I would be all in favor of banning them too.

#32 Sol

Is it me or does the town's name, Hamtramck (geez, how do you pronounce that?) somewhat ironic?

Next up - changing the name to Halaltramck.

BTW, it's pronounced ham-TRAM-ick.

You either silence Christians too or listen to the calls to prayer of Muslims.

Christians don't blast calls to Jesus five times a day.

They go to church, they pray, they go home and you don't hear a sound.

#30 Ward

Accompanied by the sound of a 30.06 (or a .308)?

every day of the week? That will surely get those on your side riled up nicely for work:-))

#22 Tman: Church bells mark the time, Matins, Angelus, novenas. But they did originally mark the time for specific prayers. Now they are a reminder of how in feudal societies, only the religious guilds and the clergy could afford to know what time it was.

Advocating shooting mosque speakers? Heaven forfend!

We weren't advocating anything! We were just saying.

#12 Judith:

Sorry, you're missing the point. The mosque's imam is saying that they will simply ignore the law if they don't like it. Find me a church that is doing the same thing and I'll say, "bad church". The mosque has already announced its intention to ignore secular legal authority. And, well, we can't exactly pretend to be ignorant of the context here, can we? Islam in general has something of a, mm, problem with secular authority. And there is a growing tendency in contemporary Islam to react rather violently to anything they don't like.

Someone with a speaker set at the same decibel should recite passages from the bible during each call to prayer.

Or just play Metallica.

How about Rush?

2112 anyone?

#34 Judith:

You are applying a double standard to Muslims here based on the behavior of Muslims there.

So it would be OK to apply a double standard to "Muslims there"? (/cattiness)

I disagree - I don't think it is a double standard - there's a big difference between non-verbal call to prayer and the Adhan.

#49 Indeed. It is a test of where loyalties lie when religious law conflicts with the law of the state.
Wasn't that one of the Daniel Pipes - What is a Moderate Quiz?

#41 r.soul

We used to have them in Britain as well. I miss them.

St. Mary-le-Bow and the Cockney's. Sometimes it's more then just bells, it's about the community surrounding the church.

Are the bells really silent? I don't recall remembering either way...

#48 ding a ling:

Advocating shooting mosque speakers?

Oh, now back off on that. I commented on the susceptibility of loudspeakers--that's a mechanical device see? Not a person--to gunfire.

recall remembering???

PIMF!

To be fair, probably both the church bells and the calls to prayer should be silenced.

I would rather hear nothing than Islam announcing it's coming to a theater near you 5 times a day.

It starts with a small voice and becomes a roar. Cut out its voice box. Now.

They seem to be generally silent. The one 20 yards away is silent. The huge Norman one in the town is silent. The one up the hill is silent. The one I actually drive to on a Sunday is silent.

You only seem to get bells for weddings .

20 years ago, when I were a lad dozing on a Sunday morning, you could hear the bells from miles away.

Associate imam al-dimwit really needs to reconsider; this is the wrong way to spread the Caliphate - attracts too much attention for little gain.

Rip ford - sorry for the impersonation ! - The message if for you, not from you.

Oranges and lemons, say the bells of St. Clements
You owe me three farthings, say the bells of St. Martins
Death to the infidels! Death to the Jews! say the imams of Finsbury Park

Hm, somehow that last line just doesn't scan right.

Interesting situation. I dont' know if the Hamtramck mosque's leaders are sophisticated enough to realize it, but they are making arguments pursuant to the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (affectionately known as RLUIPA), passed by Congress unanimously several years ago, which is confusingly worded but has been interpreted by religious institutions and groups throughout the nation to mean that local governments cannot use zoning or police powers to regulate a religious land use. An earlier version of the law passed by Congress in the early 1990's, known as the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.

There are several court cases bubbling around the country on the meaning of RLUIPA and its constitutionality. Under the most pro-religion interpretation of the act promoted by religious leaders in litigation, Masud Kahn is absolutely right - Hamtramck has no ability to prevent the use of the loudspeaker on mosque property.

$42 Judith.

A loudspeaker at 4PM for some seconds as the car passes is one thing , church bells at 7,8AM once a week is another;

but when, Every Day at 4:30Am, one is woken by what is to my ears unmelodic; something broadcast by way of speakers that reaches 2 to 3 miles

is totally too much.

Sigh, this is strictly a noise dispute.

What if Chrisitians decided to blast the catechism from churches. What if Jews wanted to blast the shma 5 times a day. What if Wiccans wanted to blast some little spell of theirs 5 times a day. What if I started a religion that required me to blast "highway to hell" 5 times a day.

The cacaphony would be out of control.

Muslims got along fine before western engineers invented audio technology. They can get along without it now, or use it indoors, whatever they wish.

ph (#35):

and, I would not be surprised if the moslem community were not intentionally provoking this confrontation

That's exactly what they're doing.

Judith,
You can't give rights to people who have made it clear they are going to use those rights to destroy you. In such a case a double standard is morally required.

Let's be real. Secular humanism can't stand up to Islam. So make a decision - this is either going to be a Christian country - which would be good for everyone, or a Muslim one - which would be very very bad for every one.

Therefore - churchbells - yes. Muslim call to Jihad - no.

And one more thing Judith - live in reality, just a little bit...

#3 Paul

And this is only the beginning.

Exactly.
The same things have happened twenty years ago in France.
When they start feeling strong enough, they start provoking.
Violent reactions help them.
Peaceful reactions do not help to stop them.
No reaction speeds them up.
It's a win win, for them. A lose lose for us.

It's a planned invasion, it is not immigration, they have no wish to mix in, to become Americans. They want Americans to disappear and become like them.

The Italian mob was nothing compared to this problem.

So make a decision - this is either going to be a Christian country

I think I'll stick with a church-state separation country, thanks.

Secular humanism can't stand up to Islam.

Beg to differ. Taken seriously and implemented consistently, it can.

You can't give rights to people who have made it clear they are going to use those rights to destroy you. In such a case a double standard is morally required.

Couldn't agree more.

This mosque ies continuing with the call to prayer because a vot has not been taken yet. Let's see if they continue with this crap once a vote is taken and they yold to stifle themselves and behave.

Please note that Jews and others had the grace to keep it low key when they first got here. I don't like pushy, loudmouth, asshole immigrants who just washed up upon our shore. Islamics are the worst bar none, with their in your face pagan cult.

I live in the general metro area of Detroit. I have never heard church bells there my whole life. Now, I do know that a street preacher sits outside that very mosque in Hamtramck and recites biblical passages and verses. He claims to have been doing the street preaching gig for decades, and now he happens to be doing it at the mosque. If one is allowed, the other ought to be. And of course, as OR notes, if the law tells one thing, the preacher nor the church should disobey.

They go to church, they pray, they go home and you don't hear a sound.

I disagree - I don't think it is a double standard - there's a big difference between non-verbal call to prayer and the Adhan.

Did you folks read what I wrote? In my town, the churches all have loud speakers that broadcast the church bells AND play hymns. Every single Sunday morning, every Christian holiday, and one of them has Wednesday services as well and they have their bells and hymns going on Wednesday evenings too. Plus we have a bunch of Christians just down the street who stand outside their church Sunday mornings obnoxiously trying to snare passerbys on the street into their church on Sunday, as well, telling people about how Jesus loves them and inviting them to come in and pray. Compared to that incessant noise, a Muslim call to prayer is nothing much to get upset about.

Sorry, you're missing the point. The mosque's imam is saying that they will simply ignore the law if they don't like it.

If that is indeed the point, then I agree the Mosques intentions are wrong and unsupportable. However, judging by all the other comments here, it isn't the point. The point is people don't like Muslims broadcasting their religious call to prayer five times a day because they want American to maintain what they percieve as the proper "Christian" overlay on the USA.

You want to make a point about Mosques fometing terrorist activity, promoting hate, whatever, in their broadcasts, and that these calls to prayers represent security threats to the USA then fine, do that from that position. I think such a position may very well be justifiable given some of the stuff some Muslim Imans are teaching.

However, you can't justify blocking their call to prayer because you don't happen to like their religion when the Christians are doing it to all the nonChristians in society all the time. And that is my point.

#60 r.soul,

Thanks. The churches in London were mostly silent as I recall, but then again, they were empty or closed.

I do remeber the bells of St. Paul's I believe.

Occasional Reader,

I think I'll stick with a church-state separation country, thanks.

I'll second that, thank you.

#64 Globular Cluster

What if I started a religion that required me to blast "highway to hell" 5 times a day.

Then I'd be a willing follower.

#68 Poiters-Lepanto

Solution? Attrition of numbers until terrorists are no longer fungible with "moderate Moslems."

It worked on the Imperial Japanese and we won that war.

Judith - Why don't you move ? I'll swap with you.

If this becomes a noise issue, and enough people complain, perhaps legally they can't continue to do it.

In which case, the warbling dickweeds, who refuse to join the rest of America, will continue to do so and scream they're being unfairly targetted.

I believe legally the calls can be held as obnoxious, and leave it at that. There isn't anything unfair about it.

The members of the local community should be able to vote and decided whether church bells or the muzzah should be permitted. If the majority of the community is Muslim, then fine. If not, tyranny of the minority should not permitted.

Why not set up loud speakers across the street and play rock or country music, ala Panama.

the whole problem here is that islam is a pre-modern ideological system that was set up to mirror and guide, even dictate, the pace of life in traditional communities.

there is no such thing as an individual in an islamic society, kinship, class and ethnicity all trump the notion of an individual.

thus to the muslim the call to prayer is more a communal notion that seeks to better the community and not a call to individuals. thus it is not so mch a call to prayers that many ensconsed in the way of an islamic life can follow quite easily. it is more a reminder to the community that god is omnipresent etc... and thus they should moderate their behaviour in the ways that islam demands.

for the times of the prayer call are not divinly sanctioned and were used more as a routine to measure life by and to define the passing of time.

so for those who rise above islam to states of iman or ishan the call for prayer is a constraint and not needed. thus you have the examples of the islamic saints (pirs) going through towns getting drunk and doing things that were banned in islam. they tryed to show that islam was but a stage and that to stay following the edicts of the muftis and sharia was holding them back.

the sharia was useful to the ruling authorities as it set the way of life of the populous and kept them all under control. therefore where we have rights, the average muslim the world only has duties.

so therefore if they are living in a non-muslim society and modern to boot, then there should be no call to prayer as islam will have to be an individual thing and not a edict structuring the life of the whole community. thus no need for the regulated 5 daily prayers either, which can be preformed at any time they wish to so do!

but then again islam is so diverse and ambiguous in its sources and interpretation that it could be manipulated in any which way that is useful to those doing the manipulating!

mberger- So make a decision - this is either going to be a Christian country

Occasional Reader-I think I'll stick with a church-state separation country, thanks.

Sorry OR, we are a christian (small c) country in that our laws, liberality and expected conduct are based on Judaeo/christian code. Seperation of Church and State is a decidedly Christian practice. Ironic no?

#74 Judith

Your post is perfect, but like many others here you forget that

IT IS NOT THAT I DON'T LIKE THEM, it is that they are here to CHANGE ME.

They have said it, and I have seen with my eyes France going down the drain.
They are here to conquer.

I don't want any Christian, nor Buddhist, nor Atheist America.
I don't want that in twenty years from now, like it happens today in Paris, YOU must wear a scarf otherwise they rape you.

Just that.

- this is either going to be a Christian country - which would be good for everyone

Oh PLEEAAZZEE! Good for everyone if the whole state is nothing but Christian?!?!

I think you need to go read up on some Christian history and get some reality for yourself. If you think the world would be fine fine fine if everyone just turned Christian, you're the one living in a fantasy world.

Smells like Moral Equivalence Spirit in here.

American Christians, Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Santerists (sp?), etc. have one thing in common - a desire to participate in the system and polity that comprises American culture.

The silence from American Muslims, on the other hand, is increasingly deafening when it comes to their responsibility to stand up and be counted as a force for moderation and modernity. When I hear their voices join the chorus for tolerance of all, I'll be ready to accept the sound of the Adhan as part of the chorus of assimilated and proud Americans.

Until then, my weltanschauung trumps theirs. We're right and they're wrong. They're welcome to get on board.

#31 Oh, Globby, you are speaking to me again! *happiness*

#83 Nam Grunt

Drew Carrey, LOL! I bet Mimi could wipe out Al Sadr in a second!

All this talk of bells has inspired me to attempt an adaptation of a nice old bell-related Christian hymn. So let's hear it for, I don't hear the bells on Christmas Day anymore, thanks to you moral equivilancy types who cleared the way for an islamic takeover by linking those who don't try to abide by the laws of the land with those who do and just happen to have the religion of those evil, evil dead white males (hmm, need to edit the title before publishing it)

I hear the Call five times a day
Its old familiar shout and bray,
And wild and sour with omens dour
Of death on earth, and war to men.

And thought how, as that day had come,
The belfries of all Christendom
Had fallen still and all had filled
With death on earth, and war to men.

Till dying, crying in its fright
The world devolved from day to night,
A voice from Hell, a shrill death knell
For peace on earth, good will to men.

And in despair I bowed my head
“There is no peace on earth,” I said,
“For hate is strong and mocks the song
Of peace on earth, good will to men.”
(woo, I didn't even have to change that verse)

Then called the imams loud and deep:
“Allah dies not, nor doth He sleep;
The right shall fail, we will prevail
With peace on earth once the JOOOS have all been thrown into the sea.”

Eh, it still needs work.

RIP Ford - I've never heard St Paul's - though I don't doubt you've heard it. The churches in that part of town have 'City' parishes. ie. No-one actually lives there - just work there. So they tend to have tiny congregations and hold the 'Sabbath' on a Thursday or whatever.

Your point though is well made. The churches out in the countryside are empty as well. I actually went to the big one here once - but it was empty except for an earnest vicar and a huge display of 'Palestinian Solidarity'. Various picture-posters of the horrible israeli massacres of Beit Yassin and stuff.

You might think I was actually in a mosque - not a church. Church of England of course !

From the holy city of Hamtramck...

#12-judith

I do not agree with your opinion. I to am of Judaic upbringing,but was in a community where we all respected each other. (Christians,Jews,Protastants,Lutherans, Budhists, and Athiests ) It did not bother me to live with Christmas,Easter and so on as I never have felt what happened in Europe in the Dark Ages of the 1940s and before. I actually like the bells ringing.Its kind of like listening to Mike Oldfields "Tubular Bells". America is still primarly "Christian" and I respect it and it doesn't bother me ! Stop trying to justify having to be so "understanding" like so many Jews that I know and ArguF**kementitive about every issue. Whats next? , getting rid of "In G-d We trust" from our currency? Read up about our founding fathers and their take on religion and the seperation of it. Not from some ACLU-twist it till it blurs moron.

Gotta remember to keep my nic up to date. How does Ed do it so often?

OT

I just want to remind SoCal LGFers that Walid Shoebat will be speaking at UCLA today at 3pm. If any of you can go, please do and tell us what it was like.

Thanks.

Judith,
Around here there are no church bells anymore. Maybe it is different in Canada.
No religion should be allowed to annoy the surrounding population FIVE times a day, every day. Dread Pirate Gryphon had it right. I don't want to hear anyone's prayers screamed at me over loudspeakers.

It's time to Shizzolate that shit.

#91 Flakbait

Nice job! Just tighten up the ending a bit maybe?

AC/DC Hells Bells 'nuff said

Mcgyver, out

What if I started a religion that required me to blast "highway to hell" 5 times a day.

That would rule! Rule!

/ Beavis voice

#64 Judith:

However, judging by all the other comments here, it isn't the point.

Well, I think it was Charles' point, since he is posting something specifically referring to an imam's declared intention to ignore ordinary political/legal processes.

However, you can't justify blocking their call to prayer because you don't happen to like their religion

Ordinarily, I'd agree with you. In the case of Islam, in particular, I have to think twice about it, quite frankly.

#85 Artisticulated:

Sorry OR, we are a christian (small c) country in that our laws, liberality and expected conduct are based on Judaeo/christian code.

I agree. If that's all that's meant by "a Christian country", than that's fine. If it is instead meant to indicate a desire to somehow officialize Christianity (or any other religion), or to otherwise erode the line between church and state, then that's NOT fine.

Surround the place with some big honkin' speakers and play The Kissin' Disco. Just once.

Problem solved.

#83, I prefer "Star and Stripes Forever," or "The 1812 Overture." Something highly annoying played over and over, like "My Sharona" or "The Macarena" might be good too.

I was in Israel earlier this month, and did not particularly enjoy awakening at 4:30 a.m. in Upper Nazareth to the Mosque's Greatest Hits. Furthermore, I never noticed any Muslims going to the mosques at prayer times during my entire stay. I saw one guy praying by himself in the parking lot at Qumran one day; everybody else just went about their business, especially in the Old City of Jerusalem. Perhaps I just wasn't in the right places at the right times to notice Muslims actually heeding the call.

Why can't Muslims set their alarm clocks and hie themselves to their places of worship at the appropriate times like everybody else? Is that too much to ask?

there's a great deal of difference between bells and a loudpeaker call along the lines of:

Jesus is LORD! Come worship HIM! Only HE is the way to Heaven! Jesus is LORD, and Christianity is the only TRUE RELIGION! JESUS IS LORD!

Two comments:

(A) If a prankster were to replace the mosque's recorded adhan with erotic limericks or cricket scores or falafel recipes in Arabic, how many Hamtrackianites would know the difference? If you concede that most of the town's residents would NOT know the difference, then why is it relevant that the actual content of the Arabic recording happens to be a sectarian prayer?

(B) Christian churches routinely display written signs proclaiming that "Jesus is the only way to heaven"; although the signs themselves are located on private church property, their message is visible beyond the boundaries of the church's property, and might potentially be read by passersby who would find the message offensive. If you're going to object to the loudspeaker call on the grounds that the mosque is broadcasting an exclusionary religious message beyond its own property line, then shouldn't you object to narrowly sectarian church signs as well?

If it is instead meant to indicate a desire to somehow officialize Christianity (or any other religion), or to otherwise erode the line between church and state, then that's NOT fine.

Exactly, funny thing is, the only voices I hear on the "officialize Christianity" issue are from the ACLU ilk. I have been to many churches, from many different denominations over the past twenty years and have never seen anything even close to that idea. "Give to Ceasar what is Cearsar's" goes to the bone with any Christian I know.

Is there a bit of irony in the Hamtramck Mosque?

This article by Dannis Prager says what we think to ourselves re the cult of islam out loud:

The greatest sin

...The chanting of "Allahu akbar" ("Allah is the greatest") by militant Muslims as they commit barbaric acts against innocents around the world is the greatest sin a human can commit.

The Nazis were as cruel, and so were the Communists. But they only sullied their own names (though in the case of the Communists not nearly enough), not the name of G-d. But the immense amount of evil being caused by those Muslims murdering and slaughtering innocents in the name of G-d is hurting G-d's reputation. That is probably one reason The New York Times, with its anti-Judeo-Christian agenda, recently decided to print "G-d" whenever militant Muslims say "Allah." Why allow only Allah to get a bad name, when the Times can give G-d a bad one, too?

One can only pray that Muslim institutions will realize the immensity of damage done to the name of Allah and to Islam by those Muslims who preach or practice evil in the name of Allah and Islam — and the even greater damage done by the rest of the Islamic world's failure to protest against this evil. If only they realized that they could go a long way in mitigating this damage by publicly announcing over and over that evil preached or committed in the name of Allah and Islam is the greatest sin and its practitioners will go to hell.

There is a Jewish holiday that begins at sundown tonight, and ends Thursday, an hour after sunset, Shavuot It commemorates the defining moment of Jewish history:the giving of the Torah on Mt. Sinai, over 3,000 years ago. (In Israel, the holiday ends Wednesday night.)

By their very actions, the cult of islam defiles every Christian-Judeo principle.

PIMF

That was for Occasional Reader, and I spelled Ceasar correctly once at least. :-P

#104 Throbert McGee

If you're going to object to the loudspeaker call on the grounds that the mosque is broadcasting an exclusionary religious message beyond its own property line, then shouldn't you object to narrowly sectarian church signs as well?

How about this proposition:
We'll let you broadcast your calls to prayer in Hamtramck.
You let us play our church bells...in Mecca!

#65
ploome

Your link made me so sad. Those poor little girls think they're making a choice about wardrobe and there is no mention that the penalty for leaving the religion is death. How can an eight year old girl (looks happy in the picture, too) choose anything? I don't trust my little niece to pick her own clothes, much less life path/cult.

If a prankster were to replace the mosque's recorded adhan with erotic limericks

I hereby inaugurate the First Annual LGF Dirty Islamic Limerick Contest. Let the wild rumpus begin!

Hamtramck is a litmus test which all Islamists are doubtless watching with bated breath. It's more important than many think.

I'm an atheist, so I have no particular religious objection to the adnan. That being said, I actually like hearing the church bells in my town. I often hear them in the distance when I'm out for a run, and they're very simple, euphonious, and short-lived. In contrast, I don't think I could handle the obnoxious and shrill cacophony of the muezzin who sounds like he's got a kazoo shoved up his nose five times a day (although I can imagine it growing on me if accompanied by the robust crack of a 30.06 rifle shot). Also, I don't feel at all threatened by Christianity, which has been through a reformation, unlike Islam. My Christian friends and family love and accept me, while a faithful Muslim will have to admit that I should be killed.

As far as the legality of this goes, couldn't a case be made about a church bell not being a vocalization of religious exhortation?

If you want to hear what the poor citizens of Hamtramk are going to hear five times a day, every day of the year try these two sites:

Streaming but buggy. The only way I got it to work was to click the sound so the X went away then click play, wait till it gets dark and then click sound again so the X comes back on - weird.

Or download an mp3.

I worked in Egypt for some time and those damned loudspeakers drove me nuts. You never get used to noise so you are never able to tune it out. If I lived anywhere near that mosque, I would either move or organize a vandalism campaign.

Those calls to prayer are just the flag of an army.

The most important weapon of this army is and will be a rate of reproduction that will flood the Country with muslims.
Big violence will start (against us) when they will be everywhere, like in France.

It will end up like in Europe, too many do not understand that we are living the big revenge of the muslims against the West.

The Constituion was not intended to protect the instauration of the Shari'a.

It will come. You can deny it today. It grows every day.

I am astonished at how so many, here on LGF, think that we can find a decent compromise with peopele who have come here to destroy us and everything we are. There is no multiculturalism in the future, there is the caliphate...

#105 Artisticulated:

the only voices I hear on the "officialize Christianity" issue are from the ACLU ilk. I have been to many churches, from many different denominations over the past twenty years and have never seen anything even close to that idea.

Then you haven't met these folks.

Judith,
A Jew in Exile needs to know his friends and his enemies. I am quite aware of history. I am also aware of the here and now. Here and now, American Christians are, more so than any other group and at any time, tolerant and supportive of Jews and Israel. And they are what makes the country worth living in. For a vision of a future of a truly secular society, where Christianity is dead, please see Europe (and shudder).

Judith

You are either spectacularly naive or dangerously stupid. And insofar as you employed the moron's spelling of the word "definitely" (no A in there, sweetie), I suspect it's a good dose of the latter, mixed in with an obvious abundance of the former. What's more, you're Canadian, so your opinion on this American situation is neither applicable nor welcome. So kindly STFU. Thank you.

First of all, this is a Judeo-Christian country, NOT AN ISLAMIC one. This country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, NOT ISLAMIC principles. Grow up Judith and smell the coffee, we shall not allow others to usurp our identity. This is not a freedom of religion issue, because the [bigoted word]s are free to practice. This is a cultural issue, and islam is not part and parcel of this country's heritage. We don't have to be so f--king understanding for every single minority. That is multi-culti think. Did you know Sunday in Germany is offically "quiet"??? That's right, no loud noises in residential areas otherwise its off to jail. I hate to bring up this example but did you know that Frawance does not accomodate non-French speaking citizens??? There are lots of democracies where the immigrants have to fit into the culture, not the other way around. If the [bigoted word]s don't like it, they can leave. Try Canada, apparently everything is okay there.

#57 the heat

To be fair, probably both the church bells and the calls to prayer should be silenced.

Fair? The Founding Fathers created America so that their Judeo-Christian faiths could be practiced...without fear of reprimand from the Mother Country. Got that...Judeo-Christian. islam is not in that equation.

To heck with "fairness". That's most of our problem these days...we're too concerned with hurting someone's feelings. We need to get over it.

#74 Judith

Where on Earth do you live? I grew up in Georgia, South Carolina, small-town North Carolina, Tennessee, and now live in NY.

NEVER heard, or visited, or have heard of, the kind of circus you describe.

I'm fascinated.

BTW, one of the royal pains in the fanny of the moslem call to prayer is that the first one is at dawn. Also that they amplify them. If they just had a dude standing on the minaret like in the old days, ok. But not this crap.

#32 Sol Roth

Is it me or does the town's name, Hamtramck (geez, how do you pronounce that?) somewhat ironic?

Phoenetically: Ham-tram-ick

If the State of Michigan bends over and grabs ankle on this one, then the Islamic Virus will spread throughout terrorist enclaves within the U.S. like wildfire.

It's not the state that needs to do anything. The City must do something. Assuming that the Al-Islah mosque ignores the repeal of the noise ordinance amendment, the City will have tghe authority under its ordinances to fine the mosque for each day the violation continues and may "abate" the nuisance by closing the mosque down. This thing is going to litigation on federal Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA) and, if Michigan has one, a Religious Freedom Restoration Act challenge.

I think the RLUIPA challenge will fail, because the noise ordinance is not a land use regulation, and even if an attorney could make the claim that it was, the ordinance does not substantially burden religious exercise, though the City will have that burden to show that to be the case.

RFRA, all bets are off, but if the City should lose on RFRA, that case ought to go all the way to the 6th Circuit at least, and then Michigan's law, like like teh original federal statute can be declared unconstitutional.

Still, the noise ordinance by itself is a well tested regulatory device to address noise pollution and the City has broad regulatory powers to abate such pollution.

Maybe if they played the theme to 'Dr. Zhivago' or some show tune (Oklahoma?) 5 times a day instead of singng praises to big al, the issue could be dropped. They keep claiming it's only a reminder, after all. Since they only want to remind the faithful, any sound should do, right?
No one could then complain. Christian's bell music is only that - music (once a day - one day a week). A reminder.

Somehow I don't think the muslims will go for the compromise.

#106 NY Nana

Which holiday is the Feast of the Trumpets?

Nice strawman argument you've got going there, Judith - how about this - if those dastardly Christians piss you off as much as you say, go circulate a petition, get a bunch of signatures (however many are required to get it put on a referendum) and then see if the church(es) publicly state that they will tell the government to piss off even if the votes go against them. If all of those things happen, then your argument will hold some modicum of weight ... otherwise ...

Ni

#104 Throbert McGee:

why is it relevant that the actual content of the Arabic recording happens to be a sectarian prayer?

So you'd say my objection is legitimate if the Adhan were in English or Spanish?

If you're going to object to the loudspeaker call on the grounds that the mosque is broadcasting an exclusionary religious message beyond its own property line, then shouldn't you object to narrowly sectarian church signs as well?

Choosing not to look at something is not the same as having to wear earplugs or walk around with my hands over my ears.

Church Bells have become a secular aspect of our life in the U.S. just like Santa (SAINT) Claus, In God We Trust, Fat Tuesday, etc. Comparing this to a demand from a religion to broadcast from speakers to the general public a call to worship with specific language is intellectually dishonest. I truly believe leftists / liberals were born without the gene that allows for logical comparisons of situations.

...Coming soon to a town near you. Where the fuck is the ACLU on this one. Oh yeah, they are only anti Judeo-Christian.
I can't wait to hear these abominable wails up here in Canada. The mosques are already proliferating madly. No doubt all the meek and oh-so tolerant Canadian multiculturalists will be blissfully rapturous upon hearing these Islamic call to prayers...it will prove just how accomodating and inclusive we are.

117
That is pretty much the point.
If Islam was a fun loving people and didn't want to eventually institute sharia and kill anyone who did not submit, I think we could all live with their ways.

But they are not fun loving and they do want to brutalize the world until we have an allah inspired (ass be unto him) hell on earth.

Camel's nose and all that.

#119 mberger

thanks, mon :-).

How about Hocus Pocus, by Focus?

#126 Papijoe

The annual Mariachi concert in the Plaza de Garibaldi! :)

#19 Cynic

Does anybody, other than Muslim, in the States know what the call to prayer sounds like at 4:30Am?

Yea I do I was in Turkey for 4 months it is figgen loud.

And Judith this happnes 5 TIMES DAY EVERYDAY for 20 minutes, the sunday bells only happen on sunday 1 or
2 times a day. In my city we don't blare our hymns out on loudspeakers.

I'm a perfect world I might be able to stand hearing the distant droning of Islamic prayer calls 5 times a day. But not in this one where Islamist are clearly bullies.

Well, this is my first post at this board, but I've been reading it for a week.

I like the dueling loudspeaker idea that others have suggested, but my song suggestion is "God Bless the USA" by Lee Greenwood. I feel the last thing these people want to hear is "I'm proud to be an American" blurted over and over.

I ♥ mariachis

{ok, back to arguing}

104 throbert

1) The ACLU would know IMMEDIATELY if you pronounced 'Chist is Lord' in latin or Hopi (on staff linguists ya' know). The law suits would swift and merciless.

2) If I am not mistaken, the ACLU HAS sued churches over displaying the creche scene on thier own property during Christmas. Visually assualting non-Christians, prosthelytizing etc.

We will have to wait and see if the rabid anti Judeo-Christian groups come out against this. So far, they haven't made their presence known. Had this been a Christian or Jewish issue, there would have been swarms of protests and talking heads on every shout show.

I live in Canada in a fair size city, I would say there are about 30-40 churches (catholic, anglican, etc) and I have NEVER heard them blast hymns over loudspeakers...none of them even have loudspeakers. There are a few churches (born-again types) that pressure people now and then, but they do relent when you say no...church bells are heard on sundays and after weddings, not everyday. This is a clash of rights...they say it is their right to call to prayer (dont any of them own a watch??) but it is the right of the town NOT to have islam crammed down their throats...although the mosque is broadcasting from their property...I am sure if the screeching (sounds like someone torturing a cat to me) can be heard for miles, I guess the argument can be made that the college students down the block broadcasting music from their property cannot be asked to quiet it down, religious ground or not.

The residents should crank up a good polka during the call to prayer..or if we are going with rock...KISS would be appropriate given gene simmons recent comments...yes a nice Jewish boy rocking during muslim call to prayer.

I could see maybe an improvement in quality of life if they run the prayer calls from the loudspeakers on top of ice cream trucks.

This one is actually quite easy to counteract. Simply enlist the services of several audiophyles to strategically place their vehicles on the public street surrounding the Mosque, open all doors on said vehicle, insert Metallica, "For Whom the Bell Tolls", and let it rip at the same moment the call to prayer is played.

#138 Zorkmidden:Um Noodle Kugel with Raisin

Want my recipe? Uh, it does not include Kraft Macaroni and cheese™ ...

I seriously ♥ Mairiachi, too.

Plaza de Garibaldi, México, DF

#141 Luigi

Great idea!

I could see maybe an improvement in quality of life if they run the prayer calls from the loudspeakers on top of ice cream trucks.

Uh, what would they do in the dead of a Detroit-area winter?

Nana,

Falaffel is always a popular favorite -- even on wheels!

If I am not mistaken, the ACLU HAS sued churches over displaying the creche scene on thier own property during Christmas.

I believe you are mistaken and/or making shit up. I'm not a big fan of the ACLU, but please don't slander them with baseless accusations.

#74 Judith

Did you folks read what I wrote? In my town, the churches all have loud speakers that broadcast the church bells AND play hymns.

...The point is people don't like Muslims broadcasting their religious call to prayer five times a day because they want American to maintain what they percieve as the proper "Christian" overlay on the USA.

But your town is in Canada, isn't it? You are insisting that your Canadian experience is representative of America.

You are also accusing folks who say they protest the adhan as a noise nuisance of lying about their true motives.

#143 NY Nana,

As a person who's all thumbs in the kitchen, I'll save your recipe to drool over. Seriously, if it involves cutting and dicing, don't put me in charge. But I'll sing for you!

Ay, ay, ay, ay,
canta y no llores..

{ok, I stopped. You can take off the earplugs now..}

It'd be pretty easy to build a box with a microphone that takes in the call to prayer, inverts the signal, and then blasts it out your own PA system. The inverted waves would cancel out the original call to prayer, thus silencing them :)

It's surprising to me to hear so many equivocating Christianity and Islam in this thread.

"If we're going to allow Christians to do such and such, then Muslims should be allowed to do such and such".

If the majority in this country can no longer tell the difference between the two and the merits of one versus the other, then whis war is already lost.

From every writting of the founding fathers that I have read and from every one of their biographies that I have read, the representative republic form of government that you and many generations before you have enjoyed in this country came out of the values and ideas of Christians.

How quickly we forget our roots, and a nation without roots is already defeated.

Half the Founding Fathers, of those who signed the Constitution, held seminary degrees. Jefferson used government funds to support missionary activity. Prayer was a staple in government sessions. The Supreme Court even held communion.

The Founding Fathers were not deists. Of those few that some revisionists like to claim were, both Franklin and Jefferson believed in and practiced prayer. Both also pushed for religious education.

Does anybody remember the old Star Trek episodes that had the thinly veiled plot lines to represent social issues? I think some current plot lines are starting to reflect a growing discomfort with the Cult of Islam. The Chronicles of Riddick isn't out yet, but the bad guys sure triggered "death cult" in my head when I saw the trailer.

this, not whis...

PIMF...

Ranger Dad - To a secularist, Christianity and Islam are the same sort of thing. Archaic belief systems from the dark ages. But most of them reckon Islam is cooler cos they know Christianity is horrible, bad , violent.

I have this discussion regularly in the UK with proselytyzing atheists. The even think in their stupidity that Islam pre-dates Christianity, and the moslems have been terribly put upon by the horrible christians trying to take their land.

Are we doomed ?

In fact the BBC was celebrating Ascension day last thursday by having high-brow discussions about how crap Christianity is. One of the pundits ( a professor) even said that Islam is a more godly religion - more respect for priests in Islam he says.

I mean - we are f*cked, aren't we ?

#147 freedomsound

Also, Islam comes with a subtext of threat, or bullying. Here's what Churchill said of Islam, and why I resent having it stuffed down my throat:

"That religion [Islam], which above all others was founded and propagated by the sword - the tenets and principles of which are...incentives to slaughter and which in three continents had produced fighting breeds of men - stimulates a wild and merciless fanaticism."

If Islam was a fun loving people and didn't want to eventually institute sharia and kill anyone who did not submit, I think we could all live with their ways.

No, this is a simple noise complaint that applies to everyone. I don't care if Islam was a fun loving religion they would still not have the right to blast stupid crap five times a day.

Joe has some property, he is still not allowed to blast ACDC 5 times a day.

This is totally, utterly NOT a freedom of religion question. The Imam has every right to go outside and make the call to Jihad, BUT WITHOUT THE LOUDSPEAKER.

Islam was practiced without problems prior to western feats of engineering in the realm of sound. It can still be practiced that way.

R.Soul

Are we doomed ?

I see some hope in the younger generation. And at the risk of being labeled a religious fanatic:

My hope is in the LORD!

Jeez... they have been called for prayer at the same times for hundreds...thousands of years and they can not yet figure out how to tell time or that you can just watch the clock and figure when to go yourself. No wonder the culture is stuck in the Middle Ages.

If they need to be reminded when to pray, why not tie a piece of string around their finger (left hand, of course), as my grandma taught me when I was 4yrs. old.

I had always been taught that the US is founded on Judeo-Christian values.

I Am Proud To Be an American...Are You?

Although America is no longer “one nation under God”, I stand behind the Judeo-Christian values 100% that this country was formed and built upon and that has kept us strong for over 200 years.

I believe that every man, woman and child who is “for America” needs to stand up and say so, and let their voices be heard loud and clear across this country and around the world. We need to know unequivocally who is for us and who is against us! It is this simple, “If you aren’t for US, then you are for THEM!” There is no neutrality here.

Christians of America, STAND UP and tell the Devil and his crowd who are demonstrating in our streets that we back the President and our troops not only with good wishes, but, with the Word of God and our fervent prayers!

I live two blocks from a church that chimes the bells three times a day,and I love the sound of them,its a wonderful music to my ears. Its also a far cry from hearing some guy yelling the adhan over loudspeakers five times a day.I think this is just another attempt to islamatize America. personally I think that if the muslims cant obide by rules and regulations,they should take their evil crappy religion and all the muslim symphtizers(judith) back to the middle east.

#162 numbersjoc

Amen. My sentiments exactly.

Questions:
Is there a basis for a class action lawsuit or something that will allow the citizens of the community to enforce the majority opinion legally without relying on a wimp court to surrender for them?
I agree with folks who say this is only the beginning, and is quite likely a set-up. They operate like many activists, they create the "injustice" for the purpose of litigation. They are already willing to pay the legal bill. But they are finding no challengers. Their legal costs are going to be minor at this rate. I was reading somewhere that the mosque folks are making great use of the left's well greased network. They never do their own leg work. They are Xtreme parasites.

2. If the mosques use this to set precedent, why are we not sending heavyweight legal power to meet them in court on issues this big? Is anyone doing that?

And the young girl who recently had the Justice dept defend her right to wear a scarf? Where the hell is my voice in that decision? And the "youth camp" sitting in Iowa on federal land? They are doing this in small courts all over the country , slowly collecting precedents, I guess...

3. Since what we call politics is an intricate component of their definition of functioning as a muslim - it is not separate but part and parcel of islamic identity -can not a legal case be made to at least suspend it's status as a religion?

If a homegrown religion this ugly popped up, it would never be 'allowed' to proliferate. As a people we would get damn pissed to hear the churches across the land were either calling for annihilation of America or operated quietly and diligently to impose it vision down my throat. And were primarily funded by extremely wealthy foreigners.

We need to start clarifying definitions in this country. We never ever had to assimilate a population that is poisoning freedom and unwilling to become Americans. It is blasphemy for Islamics to place any allegiance before allah (spit) but not blasphemy to feign allegiance to America.
I really think they actually see America as 'rightfully' theirs. I'm not going to "protect" their erroneous assumptions.

I've been thinking we seriously need to develop a rapid response network in the courts and schools. They are getting away with all of this unhindered. It would be much more effective to start meeting them head to head in OUR courts than the likely civil war that will erupt if the courts continue to surrender.

the mosque didn’t need the city’s permission to broadcast the calls to prayer in the first place.

Because the mosque is a religious institution and because it is broadcasting from its own property, the city has no control over the calls to prayer beyond regulations contained in the noise ordinance.

Oh? Thats good, because now you shouldn't mind while I use my Federal Thunderbolt Air Raid Siren (appx 5 mile range) in my back yard while you are having prayer.

Right?

Right?

(I love these things. There are sound clips of it on the website if you want to hear it.)

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. It seems like a cut & dried issue of noise pollution. If it reaches above the actionable decibel threshold, then do something about it; otherwise, don't, as much as you dislike the import. Unless you claim that the practice of Islam itself in American by residents of America ought to be subject to more stringent laws than other religions or even businesses.

As to the unamplified call, I know that if I stood on my roof and cried aloud in, e.g., Ancient Greek, at 4:30 AM each morning, the fine men and women of Chicago Police Department would be telling me either to STFU or take a ride. I'm not sure why a muzzein shouting at that hour should be exempt from public disturbance laws, amplifier or not.

The fact that the city council knuckled under by making an exception is annoying, but it appears that it's being rectified by the process in place.

#120 inotherwords:
Attacking spelling is the lowest form of net discourse. But in addition: "What's more, you're Canadian, so your opinion on this American situation is neither applicable nor welcome. So kindly STFU. Thank you."

Does this mean that those of us who are American have no grounds to discuss Israeli/Palestinian issues?

#19 Cynic 5/25/2004 09:22AM PST

"Does anybody, other than Muslim, in the States know what the call to prayer sounds like at 4:30Am?"

{Perfectly understandable cranky references to 4:30 a.m. wake-up call--*really* quiet, eh?}

#123 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)
"BTW, one of the royal pains in the fanny of the moslem call to prayer is that the first one is at dawn."

Technically, the first call should be sounded at the moment a black thread can be distinguished from a white thread. That is predawnish, and varies with the time of sunrise. Michigan is much farther north than Israel, so there is no worry about a 4:30 a.m. call. In fact, near the summer equinox this year, dawn is no earlier than exactly 6:00 on the following handy calculator.

OTOH, according to this same calculator, "civil twilight" (for aircraft pilots) starts around 5:25 a.m. on June 21, 2004 in Lansing, Michigan.

Wonder how long it would take to start pushing that "thread distinguishing" envelope?

LapsedLeftist

"Does this mean that those of us who are American have no grounds to discuss Israeli/Palestinian issues"

I can imagine if an american went to a paleo website and started sounding off - they might get the bum's rush. I don;t expect they would get the extended hearing that Judith got here.

Also, about counter-programming suggestions, I favor Metallica, specifically "Creeping Death" off Ride the Lightning, which is as far as I know the only metal song about Passover.

Stories like this always remind me of the POWs interrogated by the Chinese during the Korean war. The enemies goal was to breakdown a prisoners will slowly and incrementally through a series of seemingly inocuous requests.

Interrogators would start by asking the GI if he could think of one bad thing about America. Under constant duress eventually the soldier would relent and say something negative about America. Then the Enemy gradually builds on this little statement until eventually the GI is siging documents and giving speeches about the greatness of Communism compared to the evil Americans.

IMHO, Hamtramck is a classic example of this type of subtle subversion. After a few years of hearing the Muzzin 5 times a day, seeing women in Burquas and suffering through a series of gang rapes of young white girls by Muslim men, whatever's left of the community will come to accept that this is just the way things are and nothing can be done. Eventually all non-Muslims will flee the and the vacuum will be filled by more Muslims. Labens-raum uber alles...

I heard a lecture at NYU yesterday with Mark Steyn talking about the infinite capacity of Americans to blame themselves for attacks by our enemies. I'm afraid that American apathy is Islams greatest weapon and our greatest weakness.

The obvious song that should be played to rebut the 4:30 AM screeching should be "Battle Hymn of the Republic" don't you think? It works on so many levels...

#168 R.Soul:
But this is LGF, so please don't compare us to that sort of site. We ought to hold ourselves to a higher standard of discourse.

I just wanted to point out that the argument that Judith could not contribute to the discussion due to her country of residence was specious. I think Judith is off the mark in several places but, c'mon, what would the reaction be like if Gordon attacked a poster based on country of residence?

#105 Artisticulated:
"the only voices I hear on the "officialize Christianity" issue are from the ACLU ilk. I have been to many churches, from many different denominations over the past twenty years and have never seen anything even close to that idea.

Then you haven't met these folks. "

Who says this is a "Christlike" (y'know, *Christian*) idea? How many times does the Man have to say, "My kingdom is not of this world"? For real followers, once.

Lots of people can be deluded into thinking they are something they are not. (The old saw goes: If I was born in a garage, does that make me a car?)

People who presume that they have to pick up after G-d or take care of G-d's interests *for* Him are dangerously close in attitude to the Islogical. (This is the dangerous attitude that leads to horrible deeds: people who take the Four Gospels seriously are not parading in the streets, demanding a State religion. Alas, they'll probably mistake "weak" for "meek" and keep on letting the g-dless uproot the Judeo-Christian foundation of the Western World until Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, John, et al are totally relevant again.)

#154   R.Soul

To a secularist, Christianity and Islam are the same sort of thing. Archaic belief systems from the dark ages. But most of them reckon Islam is cooler cos they know Christianity is horrible, bad , violent.

Sometimes it's better to paint with a brush that isn't so broad. See my #113 post on this thread.

Lapsed Leftist,

I know that if I stood on my roof and cried aloud in, e.g., Ancient Greek, at 4:30 AM each morning

LOL, I'm picturing it..

ANDRA MOI ENEPE MOUSA POLYTROPOS OS MALLA POLLA !!!

;-P

If the residents of the town want to win this one they have to make the following case:

1. Everybody has freedom of religion.
2. Nobody has the right to make tons of noise five times a day.
3. This is strictly a noise issue.
4. Islam does not require public loudspeakers to be practiced in a successful manner.
5. Church bells are practically secular. They do not say "What would Jesus do?" but rather, ding dong ding dong -- not specifically religious. When I hear church bells I don't think of Jesus. I think "what a nice sound" or "it's 12 o'clock."

That being said, it is also not cool for Christians to blast hymns on sunday morning, as Judith claims happens in her town.

This should be an open-and-shut case if it weren't for the multi-culti ass kissing of the moonbat left. If the Imam is allowed to blast his message then any religion has the right to start blasting their message whenever they want. Totally unacceptable.

PatrickAfir

Sorry to hurt your feelings. The point of view I describe is neverthelsess endemic in the UK, but I accept there are atheists who have a more charitable view of Christianity.

1) Let's not over do this Judeo-Christian thing. I have many friends and acquaintances who are Moslems, Jains, Sikhs, Buddhists, atheists, a Parsi or two, and perhaps some other affiliations, many of whom are loyal US citizens. Regardless of the US 's origins, the time is long past to consider this a Judeo-Christian country, if it ever was one.

2) I have lived in many cities around the world, including a Moslem one or two, and I like sounds like church bells, temple gongs, street criers, the adhan, the Tokyo neighborhood fire watch, etc. They give a rhythme to the day and the year, and provide a sense of place.

3) All are infinitely preferable to the sirens of police cars, ambulances and fire engines that also provide a sense of place but are disruptive because of their randomness. Also, in my area the volunteer fire department regularly sounds loud sirens to mobilize the fire fighters. I don't like these sounds, but accept their necessity.

#175 zorkmidden:

I would prefer "Menin aeide, Thea, Peleiadeo Akhileos oulomenen," especially the part about "pollas psykhas Haidi proiapsen" ("who threw many souls down to Hades"), which has always stuck in my mind as a vivid image. But neither Achilles nor Odysseus deserved an epic as much as Diomedes, who was of course jobbed by omission in Troy.

Lapsed Leftist,

Psst, you, me, roof of my house, tomorrow at 4:30 a.m. Bring your Thucydides, I'll bring my Xenophon. We'll convert everyone, in no time flat!

;-P

The intolerance of Moslems and Islam on this site is on such a grand scale that before long I suspect it will start on the Blacks and Jews, the usual scapegoats.

#148 Zorkmidden:con 72 raisins lokshen kugel

How can we be sure that the raisins are pure? Sicne I am seriously making a raisin kugel tomorrow night, for the Jewish holiday of Shavuot, where we eat dairy foods, I will never look at those poor golden raisins in quite the same way!

Here is a place for you to go if you are in LA, where you might hear Mariachi! I have a lot of albums that I collected when I was an exchange student in 1954, and it is amazing how the same songs are still popular.

Cielito Lindo

BTW, no slicing and dicing this kugel...but the one I make for Rosh HaShanah? Dicing apples in involved.

Betcha I'm a better monotone than you are!

Here is a kugel recipe almost identical to mine:

Sweet Cheese Noodle Kugel

#32   Sol Roth:

the town's name, Hamtramck (geez, how do you pronounce that?)

ham-TRAM-ick (it's an invisible 'I')
Actually, thinking about it, it's almost two syllables, w/ a 'glottal stop'
ham-TRAM'k

#172 Lapsed Leftist 5/25/2004 11:42AM PST
I just wanted to point out that the argument that Judith could not contribute to the discussion due to her country of residence was specious.

True, and also not the argument offered, which was: Judith is using her narrow, personal Canadian experience to define broad, public American cultural realities.

That she did, and she did do bogusness before the Net. 'K?

(Also, I wonder if the "hymns" are actually the ringing of the chimes, like the Big Ben set many know:
Bo-onng, bong, bo-onng, bo-onnng.
Bong, bong-bong, bo-onnng.
Bo-onng, bong, bo-onng, bo-onnng.
Bong, bong-bong, bo-onnng.
Then the hour is tolled: Bong! Bong!...

Otherwise, if it is really "songlike" then Judith is likely mistaking a carillon for belltower bells. As expensive as that instrument is, and as sparse as quality carillonneurs are, more likely to be electronic.)

You can hear the Longwood
carillon here, or so they say...

#177   R.Soul

No problem, homes! I understand where you're coming from. In Why I am not a Muslim Ibn Warraq addresses this issue, pointing out how the U.K.'s own Rev. Prof. William Montgomery Watt devoted much time and energy to being an apologist for Islam. Here is an interview with Watt, in case you're interested. Watt reminds me a bit of the orthodox Jews who vehemently deny the legitimacy of Zionism. With friends like these...

#180 Zorkmidden:

No thank you, I'll stick with almost anyone else. Thukydides gives me conniptions in English, let alone my all-too-rusty Greek. (Or as I like to think of his work, the Peloponnesian War as written by James Joyce in his Ulysses phase in Greek.) Almost as bad as Aiskhylos.

I much prefer Herodotos's naive zeal (can't remember the Greek from memory and too lazy to look it up, so this will be rough): "I, Herodotos of Halikarnassos, offer forth this history, so that neither the deeds nor the great & marvellous feats, both of the Greeks and the barbarians, may become unknown or faded by time..." Plus Thermopylai always moves me.

#181   Blackman

Little Green Footballs is about ideology, not race.

NY Nana,

LOL Mi tia es mexicana, de Guadalajara. We don't have many parties in our family without mariachis.

#178 Acad Ronin
If we were not fighting to fend off a determined Jihad, your relaxed view and tolerance would be acceptable. I like people who are relaxed and friendly like you! But please recognize; if the country loses its Biblical roots - it will be consumed. Either by inner decadance driven collapse or by the Muslims voting /intimidating their way into power in this country. Stand and fight for Biblical values or watch America's destruction. Sorry, but wartime is not the time for a relaxed attitude. And just because you are not fighting, doesn't mean the enemy isn't. By the time you wake up, you have halfway lost...

Muslims are here. Not to assimilate, but to dominate. On a thread about Muslims threatening to ignore the will of the voters, to pray publicly over loudspeakers, about the on-going dhimmification of America, people are going on about CHURCH BELLS AND CHRISTIANS.

Christians are not the enemy. Christians (mostly) built this country. Muslims are here to destroy it. Every concession to Muslims in this country is a defeat.

I've had it with this crap.

If the good citizens of Hamtramck Michigan temporarily loose their collective minds and allow the mosque to broadcast the “adhan” five times a day, I predict the issue will be quickly revisited after a few weeks. The call to prayer is finger-nails-on-the-blackboard stuff to me. Go visit Saudi Arabia, for example, and let me know what you think. By the way, they use loudspeakers too - emphasis on the loud.

#181 Blackman, Huh? Explain.

#178

Regardless of the US 's origins, the time is long past to consider this a Judeo-Christian country, if it ever was one.

Don't forget where you came from...there is great danger in that!

#178 Acad Ronin

The 'Judeo-Christian thing' is to respect the rule of law. . . not thumb its nose at it, as this mosque is.

This is about more than cultural ambiance. When I hear Christian church bells, I think, "Wedding?" or, "Sunday?" but I never fear the church goers because their underlying message is not, "Assimilate or die, Kufr".

Similarly, the temple in my old neighborhood was a nuisance on Saturdays because of parking and the sidewalk was always clogged up with annoyingly well wishing, law abiding citizens. No Jew ever compelled me to convert or die, cover my head, stop driving, nor did they ever disrupt the peace in the community.

Ambiance is fine. Menace is not.

#181 Blackman

Do you have anything else to say you fucking idiot, or is that the only tune you know?

Lapsed Leftist,

I feel your pain. We had to study the Peloponnesian Wars in high school. I much prefered Herodotus as well, but my favorite still is Xenophon - Kyrou Anavasis (not sure how it's in English)

Maybe because I pictured the soldiers yelling "Thalatta! Thalatta!" and it reminded me of myself on the beach, when I was little..

;-P

#104 Throbert McGee:

Christian churches routinely display written signs proclaiming that "Jesus is the only way to heaven"; although the signs themselves are located on private church property, their message is visible beyond the boundaries of the church's property, and might potentially be read by passersby who would find the message offensive.

HA! I knew that would be the next argument in the de-christianizing of America! I was watching Hannity & Combs around Christmas, and an atheist (yes, a declared atheist, not my interpretation) was arguing about the separation of Church and State and religious holiday displays on Public Property, saying "...oh, it's all right for people to put displays on private property (emphasis mine), but we don't want it on Public Property". I said right then that the next argument would be "Well, those displays are visible from the road, so they need to come down".

Now, all we need is Sharia!!!

Re: #181

So many can openers, opening cans of troll food...

"before long I suspect it will start on the Blacks and Jews, the usual scapegoats. "

Do you all *really* want to "argue" with one that doesn't know of the large Jewish and African-American contingent of regulars on this site?

Oy, gefilte fish!

146 throb-

I believe you are mistaken and/or making shit up. I'm not a big fan of the ACLU, but please don't slander them with baseless accusations.

It appears I was mistaken about the suit on church property. The ACLU only wants to change the name of Christmas to Winter Holidays.

They have shown thier unwavering support for Christianity with suits like this one or this. Possibly this one, or maybe it was Christmas - no, jihad - yes .
No, your right, nothing to the slanderous, baseless ACLU anti-Christian charge at all. Thanks for correcting me.

Oh, and before you call me a Christian Fanatic, I'm agnostic. It's just that I actually am for religious FREEDOM rather than religious oppression.

#124--deseq67 good analysis-thanks. While it looks like payday for the islam on the RLUIPA, it might not be and the expenses to prove up may cause the mosque to fold like a cheap umbrella.
The city has plenty of power to solve some of this if they want to use it. If one has ever gottten mixed up against city hall plans for a housing development or a parks issue, you can see how much the city can use its power to shut you up and harass you, like SLAPP suits
and or sudden problems with the building codes applied to your home Won't do it against the mosque but it is very effective.

#184 LtTw

True, and also not the argument offered, which was: Judith is using her narrow, personal Canadian experience to define broad, public American cultural realities.

Not to be pedantic (too late; see previous posts about Ancient Greek), here was the original quote to which I took objection:

What's more, you're Canadian, so your opinion on this American situation is neither applicable nor welcome. So kindly STFU. Thank you.

Which in my opinion doesn't belong on a board like LGF by reason of its ad hominem nature and its exclusion of the viewpoints.

I would like to visit this strange town in Canada where hymns fly at one from all directions.

# 181 Blackman

There is no requirement to tolerate those that have stated their intention to dominate/annihilate you.

We are all waiting for the supposed silent Muslim majority to assure us that the Jihadists don't represent them. We are waiting for the Muslim majority to denounce and quash them. Or maybe, just maybe,the Jihadists are the majority?

Regarding tolerance - shouldn't you be more tolerant of the KKK?

#94 Earth56
Whats next? , getting rid of "In G-d We trust" from our currency?

OT, but not a bad idea... was inserted in the 1860's to show that 'God is on our (ie, the Fed's) side' in the War of Northen Aggression. As a result, it is a perpetual slap in the face to all "True Sons (and Daughters) of the South. Nationally, I would expect it to be offensive on the face to all non-Christians. AS a Christian, *I* find it offensive to have the Name of God on all my 30 Pieces of Silver. So, what the hell, let's get RID of it.

Or, alternatively, we can just get rid of the cash, which is happening anyway...

Well hey folks, I'll give Judith a rest since there are folks who are questioning whether or not she should be able to comment since she's canadian. I think that's a bullshit argument, but since I have agreed with most of her comments, and I live in the BUCKLE of the bible belt (Nashville, TN), I have some experience in church mania.

The reality is this folks-

The Muslims in Hamtramck will argue that because the churches still are allowed to do a "call to prayer" using bells instead of words, then why can't they do the same with their call to prayer?

And in any legal sense, they would be right. It doesn't matter that the bells are "more secular" or not, the fact is that these bells are louder than what would be accepted for any local town noise ordinance, and the only reason that they are allowed to be rung without having the church violate the ordinance, is simply out of tradition.

A tradition which goes against the fundamental separation of chuch and state- all of those pining for a return to those "glorious Judeo-Christian" ethic are eroding this wall just as bad as any other religion attempting to intrude on others rights to peace and liberty.

Thomas Jefferson-
"...(O)ur rulers can have no authority over such natural rights, only as we have submitted to them. The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. In neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg (Notes on Virginia, 1785. "

It may not be breaking my leg, but waking my ass up at 4:30 in the morning is a clear cut case of violating a noise ordinance that extends beyond expressing ones religious views.

And that unfortunately extends to church bells as well.

You can't have both folks.

#200 johnCV, good job! I knew you were right; just to tired to look 'em up at the moment but now you did it.

So throb- are you willing to remove the baseless from the accusations and concede that it is very hard to slander the ACLU when it comes to their support for freedom of religion anti-Judeo-Christian agenda?

#203 Lapsed Leftist, I believe Judith was embellishing so she could prempt the obvious argument.

#197 alienintruder

I have to get back to work, so no time to google, *but*:

Weren't a lot of American church bells silenced by community demands for "peace and quiet" over a decade ago?

First the bells, then the visual symbols (Biblical or not), then the "holiday songs," persons carrying their own Bibles--or having a closed Bible on a bookshelf, and the demands continue. The siLLLy termites have no clue that they are destroying the only shelter they have to parade their own ideas publicly.

Can you imagine a socialist/faschist/fill-in-the-blank totalitarian state that would tolerate pink tanks and giant puppet heads?

Bet they'll be hard pressed to find pink kheffiyahs and burquas if the siLLLies get their Islogical "pal" into the driver's seat...

True aside: At a christian-owned U.S. company (weekly Bible study optional), a "christian" told me that my having a *closed* Bible in the pile of reference books on my desk "made her uncomfortable" and asked me to take it away--I suggested she not look at it if it bothered her. (I should have brought in a wreath of garlic, but why waste good garlic on somebody who probably won't get it--or would maybe start to writhe and display fangs...)

#175 & # 180:

For those of us who never got to study Greek (but I did have three years of Latin with part of book 6 of the Aenid - Dido got really annoying), translations please!

The first one (ANDRA MOI ENEPE MOUSA POLYTROPOS OS MALLA POLLA) looks like something about the bones of evil chickens, and I'm sure that's not right.

#203 Lapsed Leftist

On LGF, we are free to be pedantic, but the scroll-by list may grow--that's freedom!

I agree the referenced quote is poorly worded - I believe my interpretation of the original context of the complaint is accurate, and nobody has shot me down.

Maybe they just scroll on by...

Let me know if you get up a tour bus--we can take nets, and collect free-range flying hymns on some holiday weekend...

;^D

#210 LibraryGryphon

The first one (ANDRA MOI ENEPE MOUSA POLYTROPOS OS MALLA POLLA) looks like something about the bones of evil chickens, and I'm sure that's not right.

LOL!
It's the first line from the Odyssey.. But I like the bones of evil chickens better!

;-)

Funny, the church bells haven't been an issue until now ...

#206 Tman, both what?

You forgot about time of day in your

unfortunately extends to church bells as well.

#208 Roger

Lapsed Leftist, I believe Judith was embellishing so she could prempt the obvious argument.

I'm aware of her escalating appeal to self-authority to win; I should have put a /sarcasm tag on my last line in #203. I find her arguments on this topic to be stretched at best. But I'd rather see a thorough fisking of her stance than "shut up, Canuck."

#206 Tman:
I can't remember the last time I heard church bells at 4:30 AM. Noise ordinances can and do allow different permissable levels of noise at different times of day.

Does anyone happen to know if noise ordinances tend to allow differences for type of noise (mechanical vs. musical, spoken vs. instrumental)? Instruments (such as bells) would seem to be less intrusive and annoying than speech of any sort, if volume were equal. I also seem to remember hearing that some municipalities restricted loud lawn care equipment before/after given times of day based on the nature of the sound generated and its annoyance value.

#182 NY Nana

En latinamerica, los exitos son siempre bacanos

144   NY Nana  
Uh, what would they do in the dead of a Detroit-area winter?

They sell Ice Cream from a sleigh - why, what do they do in NY?
((-'pb

LOL! I'll have to remember

escalating appeal to self-authority to win!

if this has already been addressed, I apologize

Occasional Reader

The US has a secular government, as it was set up, as it is, as it should remain.

However, the US is a Christian nation. It is our culture, and any overt attempt to ban religion from the public square gets you France.

#214 and #215

As has been stated, there are different noise ordinances for different times of day.

No, I don't get woken up by Church bells at 4:30.

But if the Muslims skipped that one, and did all of there calls between 9 and 9, which is the standard for less stringent noise level ordinances, would it make it ok?

I don't think you realize that when it comes right down to it, both represent calls to prayer that violate REGULAR DAY TIME noiose ordinances in most towns.

If I cranked ac/dc at noon on Sunday from my apartment and my neighbors complained that it was too loud, and the decibel levels were above what's allowed, than yes, I should be reprimanded.

Just because someone does this in a religious way doesn't make it any more acceptable.

The bells don't bother me. What bothers me is the double standard that will become unveiled if Muslims take this up to a higher court.

And they will.

#215 Lapsed Leftist, but try to get the TV stations to admit their commercials are at a higher decibel level than the programming:-/

Darleen,

The US may have Judeo-Christian values, but it also has Buddhist values, Pagan values, atheists values, deists values, etc.etc.etc...

No one religion or race has the absolute monopoly on our culture. That's the whole freaking point of our country.

Revising history to make it more appealing won't change the fact that many of our founding fathers were NOT RELIGIOUS AT ALL..

PatrickKafir - thanks for the link ! That bloke's barking ! As a scotsman I was wondering why I'd never heard of him - until it mentioned Episcopal Church and Iona.

Any serious scots reverend , if he's a protestant like this guy, has a BD. This bloke doesn't. He's not even a Christian - eg.

"I also don’t think he (Jesus) was able to work miracles except for those that other saints could also do - such as curing the sick. I don’t think some of the other miracles really happened."

" I am not happy with the traditional Trinitarian Christian formulation of God comprising three “persons” - Father, Son and Holy Spirit"

"I do, however, believe that Muhammad, like the earlier prophets, had genuine religious experiences.
I believe that he really did receive something directly from God. As such, I believe that the Qur’an
came from God, that it is Divinely inspired"

--- so he doesn't believe in Jesus except as a prophet, BUT, he believes in Mahommed. He's a muslim

"I’m becoming very worried about the Old Testament because so much of it is unchristian."
- er, is this news ?

And this is interesting :
"I do, however, think that the US is following a very dangerous policy in relation to the Middle East.
The root of this trouble is that the US gives too much support to Israel. They allow them to have
nuclear weapons and to do all sorts of things, some of which are contrary even to Jewish law.
Jewish families occupy Arab houses without payment"

"Undoubtedly capitalism has got to be restricted in various ways"

The bloke's a nutter. Interesting bit in the article about the folks at the High Kirk in Edinburgh letting the moslems pray in front of the alter.

Whyn't they just use a watch?

the freakin' adnan is not just a call to prayer--it is led by an intolerant islamic suprematist statement that allah-the moongod-is the only god-and mo is his messanger--it states allah is the greatist--this is religio/politico speech about how one god is better than all the others and as such is annoying and inciteful--before every islamic murder they shout allahu ackbar-- which is a political message--the people of hamtramck should set up storefront counter loudspeakers with the appropriate counter message--allahu nakba--allah is a catastrophy

#224 Ona Diet, because Mohammed would not have used a watch but would have used loud speakers and amplifiers.

Actually, broadcasting the "call to prayer" is really broadcasting a specifically moslem prayer about how allah is the only god.

The nearest equivalent would be if Christian churches broadcast the Apostles Creed over loudspeakers five times a day.

Most of us, even very devout Christians, would probably find that sufficiently offensive to suggest it not be permitted, regardless of whether we edorsed the sentiment or not.

#209 LtTw

Wow, that story is disheartening. I would have to say it's easier to ignore something that's visual than something that's audible, and on top of that, for someone who was supposed to be "christian" to be disturbed by a closed Bible - ouch.

For myself, I've only known first-hand one person being told to tone down their religious bent, and he was proselytizing rather extensively in the workplace. If he were not "preachy", but instead merely couched his opinions in religious references, I think no one would have said a thing.

As far as the original topic of this discussion goes, I am very much against the minority community bulldozing the majority on something that will affect people outside their own group. I have had to suck up my personal thoughts because I was part of the minority in things,so I say they can lump it. And if the imam says the law doesn't apply because it's private property, then NONE of the public nuisance laws can be enforced (i.e. Anyone can play their stereo at high volume with all their doors and windows open any time they want).

Darleen,

A little quote fer ya...

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814"

church bells don't shout out five times a day that jesus is the only god and the only messanger--they are a reminder not a statement--repeat after me--the initial statements in the adhan are NOT a call to prayer--they are a declaration of religio/politico supremacy--non-believers in this camelshit shouldn't have to be subjected to it five times a day--let them buy blackberries

#229 Tman, common law being the emphasis...

What was the letter about?

It's a letter discussing Jeffersons early law days, and the application of ecclesiastical law.

Here's the whole letter-

[Link: www.stephenjaygould.org...]

#227 Rob:

The nearest equivalent would be if Christian churches broadcast the Apostles Creed over loudspeakers five times a day.

In all fairness, in this discussion, we'd have to assume that the Apostles' Creed would be broadcast in Ancient Greek or Latin.

Speaking of dead languages, #210:
Menin aeide, Thea, Peleiadeo Akhileos oulomenen: "Anger be your song, Goddess, the destructive anger of Achilles, son of Peleas..." First line (+1 word) of Book 1 of the Iliad.

ANDRA MOI ENEPE MOUSA POLYTROPOS OS MALLA POLLA: "The man, Muse, sing to me of the worldly man who [suffered] many evils." (Can't remember what the many evils do to him but suffered is probably a safe guess.) Polytropos means 'many-traveled' but also crafty ('many inward paths'); "worldly" is the best I can do. This all refers to Odysseus and is as mentioned line 1 of Book 1 of the Odyssey. I think the evil chickens appear in Book 7.

The awkward renderings are because you bring up the Aeneid, which begins Arma virumque cano ("Of arms and the man I sing"), which at once reflects and continues the epic tradition/Homeric history by having its first two words be the first word of each Homeric epic in order (anger = arms in sense), but also declares that the story will be continued in a syncretic fashion (blending both types of story) and that the story will be told differently (Virgil is narrating it, not begging the Muse to sing it).

Ask me what time it is and I'll tell you how to build a damned clock.

(#196 Zorkmidden: The Anabasis, which was the basis of a really bad movie called The Warriors. Great stuff if you catch it on TV.)

#222 Tman

many of our founding fathers were NOT RELIGIOUS AT ALL..

Sorry, but I can't resist. Can you back that up with facts? The fact is, most of the people who left behind all their property and risked their families' lives to get here, did it seeking religious freedom, that is, the freedom to practice their religion. Overall, most of them were Christians. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not saying that this country should be free only for Christians, simply that we can't deny the origins of this country.

By the way, find me also in the Constitution where "separation of church and state" is mentioned. It's not there, it is only present in a letter written by Jefferson. The Constitution does restrict the right of government to interfere with and restrict the free exercise of religion.

Church bells are allowed in many towns (including many small towns in TN, where I also come from), because traditionally they have been sounding there for a couple hundred years. They were a call to gather for church services and community activities, and even sometimes to call people to help put out a fire. They are not an explicit call to prayer and are more pleasing and less intrusive than a voice coming over a bullhorn, and as many have already pointed out in this thread, can't be equated to the spoken calls to "Worship allah, etc."

However, most Christian churches that I know of would probably be very receptive to change if it was brought to their attention that the sound was bothersome to a number of the surrounding neighbors, and are required to obey the law as far as noise ordinances are concerned.

This is how other religions are handled on the land of the prophet:

"The Government prohibits public non-Muslim religious activities. Non-Muslim worshippers risk arrest, imprisonment, lashing, deportation, and sometimes torture for engaging in religious activity that attracts official attention. The Government has stated publicly, including before the UN Committee on Human Rights (UNCHR) in Geneva, that its policy is to allow non-Muslim foreigners to worship privately. However, the Government does not provide explicit guidelines--such as the number of persons permitted to attend and acceptable locations--for determining what constitutes private worship, which makes distinctions between public and private worship unclear. Such lack of clarity and instances of inconsistent enforcement led many non-Muslims to worship in fear of harassment and in such a way as to avoid discovery. The Government almost always deports those detained for visible non-Muslim worship after sometimes lengthy periods of arrest during investigation. In some cases, they also are sentenced to receive lashes prior to deportation. "

"Four Filipino Christians arrested three weeks ago by Saudi religious police remain jailed and under interrogation in the capital Riyadh, a Filipino diplomat confirmed yesterday.
However, the three wives and five children arrested with them for conducting Christian worship in a private home have all been released during the past week.
According to a Filipino diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity yesterday with the Associated Press in Dubai, a total of 16 Christians were arrested in the police raid of what he termed a "Bible study session" on January 7. Previous reports from friends of the arrested Christians in Riyadh had listed only 15 names, including the five small children of two families."

Leaders of the Al-Islah Islamic Center asked the council for permission to broadcast calls to prayer — a centuries-old tradition in Islam.

I'd really like to see one of the centuries-old PA systems.

#126 Darleen:

It is our culture, and any overt attempt to ban religion from the public square gets you France.

Please define what you mean by "religion in the public square."

#200 JohnCV

Good show!

Throbert, it's gotta hurt to get fisked that bad, doesn't it?

the Apostles' Creed would be broadcast in Ancient Greek

In Greece it is. Every Sunday and on holy days, the whole liturgy is broadcast from loudspeakers outside the churches. I don't know how the neighbors can stand it, I always found it annoying and presumptuous, not to mention deafening. And not helping a Sunday-morning-hangover at all.

When I lived in California, a city crew began to "sweep" (I wish) up a city-owned parking lot with a LEAF BLOWER across the street from my bedroom window at about 5:30 a.m. Since this violated the quiet hours noise ordinance, the city stopped this immediately upon notification.

Whether it's private or public property doesn't matter in most noise ordinances. I believe it's the noise - both decibles and time - that are legislated.

Here in the rural areas of Israel where it's so quiet you can hear your heartbeat, the moslime clerics occasionally turn up the volume of their taped messages and calls to "prayer" in order to harrangue the Jews on the next mountain, but it doesn't last too long. Either their own villagers cannot stand it or maybe they're afraid of getting a visit from "Radical-Right-wing-Trigger-happy-Settler-Juice. " On one such occasion, Jewish youngsters snuck in at night and switched the tape for Israeli music. We all had quite a 'blast' the next morning.

The point is to stick to the letter of the law. Don't put up, or they won't shut up. They feed off weakness and tolerance in their march towards conquest.

#234 Ranger Dad:

By the way, find me also in the Constitution where "separation of church and state" is mentioned. It's not there, it is only present in a letter written by Jefferson. The Constitution does restrict the right of government to interfere with and restrict the free exercise of religion.

Um, well, there's also the Establishment Clause, along with two hundred-plus years of federal jurisprudence on the subject. As Justice Blackmun (I think) put it, the Establishment Clause means that the state should not advance one religion over another, or advance religion over non-religion. I honestly don't understand why self-described "conservatives" don't generally agree that the government should not be in the religion business. It's a basically conservative idea.

213 zulubaby

Funny, the church bells haven't been an issue until now ...

That my friends, is the best summary of what this is about.

The best way to infringe on a 'right' or 'freedom' is to take it to the point where it intrudes on common decency or violates a long standing social taboo.
When this new 'right' is challenged as cruel, it is equated to a benign or less radical form of action.

The argument goes, well if we can't kill cats as part of our religion, using cats in any form of worship must be forbidden by the very same reasoning. Ergo, all cat worshippers are now forbidden from practicing thier non-threatening actions. Viola - a once bland and common practice is now relegated to the scrapheap of social 'advancement'. Oh, and the cat killers keep on doing what they were doing anyway, just quietly.

Zulubaby, sorry to put words in your mouth...

Hi #234 rangers dad,

Some facts? This is decent start...

[Link: www.sullivan-county.com...]

There are other sources as well...

You wrote-

"By the way, find me also in the Constitution where "separation of church and state" is mentioned. "

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

It forbids not only establishments, but also any law respecting or relating to an establishment. Most importantly, it forbids any law respecting an establishment of "religion." It does not say "a religion," "a national religion," "one sect or society," or "any particular denomination of religion." My interpretation, which has been upheld by the courts in this land, is that the government was meant to remain neutral in regards to religion, neither favoring nor discriminating any religion as long at it did not intrude on the rights of others.

"Church bells are allowed in many towns (including many small towns in TN, where I also come from), because traditionally they have been sounding there for a couple hundred years. "

And, the majority of the towns were religious, thus anyone arguing against the rights of the church to blare the bells whenever they wanted was "ungodly". I have no problems with the bells. But the unfortunate reality is that the churches did get to bend the rules for their bells.

"However, most Christian churches that I know of would probably be very receptive to change if it was brought to their attention that the sound was bothersome to a number of the surrounding neighbors, and are required to obey the law as far as noise ordinances are concerned."

We may be about to find out. I hope you're right. Because I GAURUNTEE you the Muslim community will use this as their argument.

The ACLU only cares about the separation of church and state when Christianity is at issue, as we know. The ACLU in southern California now has its briefs in a bunch about a tiny cross in the Los Angeles County Seal. You can't make this stuff up...

[Link: www.dailynews.com...]

Here's the seal, just so you know what the kerfuffle is about. The cross is eensy, one of many symbols showing the county's cultural background.

[Link: www.laavenue.com...]

Another little bit about Hamtramck -- there are numerous models of azan clocks available, so an observant Muz can easily be plugged in to the prayer thing 24/7 without bothering anyone.

[Link: froogle.google.com...]

The whole point is for the Muzholes to assert themselves and make some of America theirs. It's the auditory equivalent of marking territory.

#228 alienintruder 5/25/2004 01:21PM PST

Thanks for a great reply!

#209 LtTw

Wow, that story is disheartening.

Actually, just standing up to the weasler (calmly!) got her off my back--in a *christian-owned* company. Elsewhere, who knows? (I suspect this nominal "christian" had no relationship to Christ, and had a pretty close relationship to her antichristian galpal at the next desk--I'd guess the pal instigated the whole thing, judging by the vastness of her disappointment in the outcome. If I hadn't taken a stand, you could rightly be disheartened!)

I would have to say it's easier to ignore something that's visual than something that's audible, and on top of that, for someone who was supposed to be "christian" to be disturbed by a closed Bible - ouch.

Being born in an airplane don't mean you know how to fly!

For myself, I've only known first-hand one person being told to tone down their religious bent, and he was proselytizing rather extensively in the workplace. If he were not "preachy", but instead merely couched his opinions in religious references, I think no one would have said a thing.

This may be another point on the same "problem line": the "religious christian." This one is a lot like the "nominal" (in name only--often says, "I was born into a "x" family"). The "religious" person may think "I do "x-type" religious stuff, therefore I am "x"--but has never connected to the Person who bought their salvation. These are the ones who can be easily twisted, because they have no solid inner spiritual guide--just a self-label or a set of behaviors. Genuine christianity is all about a Relationship.

As far as the original topic of this discussion goes, I am very much against the minority community bulldozing the majority on something that will affect people outside their own group. I have had to suck up my personal thoughts because I was part of the minority in things,so I say they can lump it.

Understood. In fact, there are setups where the "faithful" have speakers in their homes that pick up the "call to prayer" signal: a *huge* step up from the chintzy clockwork machines that are set to go off at approximately the right times. The radio signal would be an ideal solution in the modern world, and *that* is the problem: The "minority" doesn't *want* to fit into the modern world--the whole idea is to overthrow/overwhelm/undercut/replace every other religious, political, ideological, cultural, and (eventually) ethnic identity in the world.

There is a reason that everyone is encouraged to assume an Arabic name and Arabic dress, and it isn't just to "better emulate Mo'." This is a conquest of the Arabic entity--which must destroy Israel in order to eliminate the inheritance of the "son of the free woman."

The foundation of the entire juggernaut of Islogical rage is the Ishmaelite inheritance of hate. The Ishmaelite rage (against being displaced by the legitimate heir) can be appeased only by destroying the legitimate heir (Israel) and subsuming all other identities. Biblically speaking, this is impossible--G-d's promises are secure. But there is one, who knows his time is short, who will play this rage/hate cycle for all it is worth.

And if the imam says the law doesn't apply because it's private property, then NONE of the public nuisance laws can be enforced (i.e. Anyone can play their stereo at high volume with all their doors and windows open any time they want).

Powerful point re: precedence!

Here's the only problem with your point: As Satan said in the joke where G-d threatens to sue Hell, "Where are *You* going to get a lawyer?!"

(No offense--many g-dly lawyers out there, but the judiciary branch will still manipulate new laws and reinterpret old ones as they have been doing.)

This Islogical precedent will supercede any number of older and worthier (by U.S. law and common custom) rulings in any al-liberaLLL court.

#181 Blackman,

Don't you know where you are? This a right wing extremist site where intolerance of others goes with the ideology. Ever hear of White Nationalism, friend. There are big fundamental personality differences between liberals and right wing conservatives that have been documented by social psychologists. Tolerance is not a big suit of those who wear the right wing conservative label proudfully. And it makes no difference whether you are talking about Black or Jewish or garden variety white adherents, pretty much what they share is a common predisposition to stereotype and defame groups of people based on their sharing of some physical or in this case religious commonalities. There is no use arguing to the contrary, because the rationalizations for their bigotry are no different than the rationalizations given by lynchers or Nazi concentration camp guards. Does it surprise you that other Blacks and Jews think this way, given their histories? Ultimately, we are all human beings subject to the best and the worst of our kind, given a little help from nature and nurture, and it doesn't seem to matter where we have come from ourselves.

Right now, the by word is get Arab, get Moslem. Kill those terrorist bastards.

And a nazi comparison to this site in a record 246 posts!

I think we have a new troll record!

Pro-Israeli's being Nazi's...(shaking head)...

All together now Gggaaazzzeee...

#232 Tman, thanks for the link. Very interesting. Need a lot more time to digest.

And the end. Wow!

For instead of being contented with these four surreptitious chapters of Exodus, they have taken the whole leap, and declared at once that the whole Bible and Testament in a lump, make a part of the common law; ante 873: the first judicial declaration of which was by this same Sir Matthew Hale. And thus they incorporate into the English code laws made for the Jews alone, and the precepts of the gospel, intended by their benevolent author as obligatory only in foro concientiæ; and they arm the whole with the coercions of municipal law. In doing this, too, they have not even used the Connecticut caution of declaring, as is done in their blue laws, that the laws of God shall be the laws of their land, except where their own contradict them; but they swallow the yea and nay together. Finally, in answer to Fortescue Aland's question why the ten commandments should not now be a part of the common law of England? we may say they are not because they never were made so by legislative authority, the document which has imposed that doubt on him being a manifest forgery.

'precepts of the gospel, intended by their benevolent author as obligatory only in foro concientiæ'. And again Wow! Jefferson may be 'NOT RELIGIOUS AT ALL' but he sure understood and without subterfuge got it right.

P.S. I wonder if Jefferson ever discuss the precepts from allah's messenger?

Charles--

I nominate this line from #246 to add to the rotating LGF banner motto collection:

Tolerance is not a big suit of those who wear the right wing conservative label proudfully.

shergald--all your social psychologists are belong to us.

Anyway.

So, shergald; leaving aside all your empty banter about "bigotry", are you saying you don't notice any particular problem is contemporary Islam?

Unrelated question; do you truly believe that all LGF regular posters are white? Or is that just your own... ahh, what's the word... bigotry?

#246 shergald, picking up the mantle now that Blackman fled?

#243 Tman 5/25/2004 02:03PM PST

Hi #234 rangers dad,

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Moot point because: The law is now being made by the Judiciary Branch, as exemplified in the "creative reinterpretations" of the U.S. Supreme Court.

Practically speaking, the Court (Judiciary Branch) is making new law all the time now, instead of interpreting the laws made by the 2-house Congress (Legislative Branch) and endorsed by the president (Executive Branch). This plays havoc with the checks and balances established by the original 3-branch system of government.

This is why Congressional Democrats are undermining President Bush's judicial appointments. The Democratic Party doesn't want to lose their ascendancy in an unelected legislative machine with lifelong staying power.

BTW, the U.S. is *not* a "democracy"--the U.S. is a "Democratic Republic"--or it used to be... If U.S. citizens had a basic grasp of this concept, there would be no play for stupid accusations based on Florida's *popular* vote. The Electoral College would be a familiar term to the public.

BTW, do you know how to produce "pregnant" and "hanging" chads? Somebody got curious, and worked out how it is done: You stack up more than 20 ballots and try to punch through all of them in one stroke. (Don't remember where I saved the URL on that experiment, so I'll have to dig.)

Back to work! Bye, all.

Occasional reader,

A better name might lackidaisical reader. You need to read the whole thing. Lest Blacks and Jews or anyone else from a minority group think they are not participants in the intolerance I am reading on this and other threads, simply because he/she is Black or Jewish or of another minority, a bit of self-reflection is in order.

#246 shergald 5/25/2004 02:20PM PST

#181 Blackman,

Don't you know where you are?

Probably the same troll--which still won't recognize a clue!

And here, I gag at the sight of troLLL food. Ewww.

Over 20 years ago I cut this letter to the editor out of the newspaper because I thought that the author[named below] spoke in a most concise and inspiring way,the stand we who believe must take against the spirit of this age.

From the Philadelphia Inquirer review and opinion section

Sunday October 16,1983

Against private religion

To the Editor:

In it's October 9 editorial,The Inquirer argues in favor of the position that Pawtucket R.I.,and other local communities should not be permitted to have a Nativity scenes,or other religious symbolism,on public property.

In arguing that position,it is stated that such a prohibition would put religious belief "where it belongs,"namely in the peoples hearts and private lives.Such an assertion betrays the hypocrisy of those who claim that their opposition to the Pawtucket practice is based on the principle of religious freedom.

How can one claim to believe in religious freedom and then make dogmatic assertions about who and to what extent religion should be practiced? There may be many people in this country who subscribe to a religion that holds that religious belief is a private matter of the heart. I do not subscribe to that religion.The religion to which I subscribe claims to be all-encompassing, with nothing outside its purview.

I resent being told by dogmatic adherents of another religion,namely the "private religion of the heart" dogma,that I must forsake the practices of my religion and take on the practices of theirs. And I consider legislation and judicial decisions that restrict the practice of religion to the private sphere to be government establishment of a religion to which I do not subscribe.

Mark Hettler

Frazer Pa.

Hi ltTw,

You wrote:

"Moot point because: The law is now being made by the Judiciary Branch, as exemplified in the "creative reinterpretations" of the U.S. Supreme Court"

That's what the court is supposed to do- Interpret the laws in respect to the Constitution. I don't agree with all of their decisions, and I also agree that they have "re"interpreted it incorrectly, but no one ever says it's a perfect system.

"Practically speaking, the Court (Judiciary Branch) is making new law all the time now, instead of interpreting the laws made by the 2-house Congress (Legislative Branch) and endorsed by the president (Executive Branch). "

The Supreme Court doesn't make the laws. They define them as consitutional or non-constitutional. they don't make them. Once again, they may go apeshit in there interpretations, but they don't "make" any laws.

"This is why Congressional Democrats are undermining President Bush's judicial appointments. The Democratic Party doesn't want to lose their ascendancy in an unelected legislative machine with lifelong staying power. "

Which is exactly what the Republicans have done before. Both parties are guilty of, well, politicizing the courts for their own gain.

Yes, I know we aren't a true democracy.

#158 Ranger's Dad

I see some hope in the younger generation. And at the risk of being labeled a religious fanatic:

My hope is in the LORD!

You're one of the few people who has his hope in the right place.

I think people like Judith fail to grasp the point as to why Muslims shouldn't be allowed to blast cat screeches at 150 decibles at 5:00 AM, while yet there is nothing wrong with churches posting exclusive religious messages on their signs or allowing people to proselytise on public streets. The issue is one of whether the person not belonging to the religion has the choice to decline what they are experiencing.

When Muslims blast the call to murder kufrs adnan, they are doing so in a way which cannot be avoided by the other 99% of the population which is not Muslim. Regardless of whether a person, at home sleeping in their own bed, is Muslim or not, he or she still has to sit there and listen to the functional equivalent of a jet engine sounding off at 5:00 AM. They don't have a choice, unless they want to jam silly putty into their ears and try to get back to sleep.

A church with a "Jesus is the ONLY way!" message on their front sign is NOTHING AT ALL LIKE THIS, regardless of the silly equivalence argument that anti-Christians try to make. How is this so? People who see the sign are free to make of it what they will. If they don't agree, they can ignore it, look somewhere else, etc. Nobody is forcing them to look at the sign.

Likewise, if Christians want to hand out tracts or invite people to church, there is nothing wrong with this. If someone isn't interested, just say so. I hand out tracts every Saturday on a major college campus here in NC. If someone doesn't want to take one, I certainly don't try to force them to take one. If they seem like they are wavering, I invite them to take one by saying something like "it never hurts to read something, even if you think you'll disagree with it, right?" or to that effect. I've found that probably 80% of the people offered a tract take it, and many even thank me, even though they know what it says, represents, and means. I certainly don't *force* people to take them.

And that's the difference that bigots like Judith don't appreciate. People in Hamtramck, MI are shortly to be faced with having a religious call to prayer FORCED on them, whether they are interested or not, and in an especially obnoxious manner. There's nothing subtle about noise pollution disguised as a call to prayer, when you don't have any choice about whether to hear it or not. What the Muslims at this mosque are doing is the auditory equivalent of going onto someone else's property and pouring used motor oil all over their septic drain field.

#216

Papijoe

A los bacos no conozco :( No me digas que ya los mariachi, a lo menos en México, no tienen los exitos...tengo ganas de llorar, hombre.

#217 Pete (Detroit)

They sell Ice Cream from a sleigh - why, what do they do in NY?

Throw it from the roofs of snowplows, for goodness sake! :)

Seriously, even though it has warmed up here. I haven't hear one truck yet...sad.

246 Shergald

Oh yeah, we're all white nationalists here...And conservatives too.

There are big fundamental personality differences between liberals and right wing conservatives that have been documented by social psychologists. Tolerance is not a big suit of those who wear the right wing conservative label proudfully

You're atrophied liberal mind is so jammed with hateful and bigotted thoughts, you'll believe anything that is written about someone who does not share your myopic view of the world. The article written by:Four professors -- two from the University of California at Berkeley, one from Stanford University and one from the University of Maryland -- studied 50 years of research into the psychology of conservatives is comical and the poster child for 'junk science'.
This is such trash, only a moron would belive it. (Oops, sorry, did I just infer you were a moron? Apologies to morons everywhere.)

And it makes no difference whether you are talking about Black or Jewish or garden variety white adherents, pretty much what they share is a common predisposition to stereotype and defame groups of people based on their sharing of some physical or in this case religious commonalities.

Really got us on that one, this is obviously an anti-semetic site.

Ultimately, we are all human beings subject to the best and the worst of our kind, given a little help from nature and nurture, and it doesn't seem to matter where we have come from ourselves.

Did you really believe that psycobabble BS they pounded into you in Psych 101? You're quite the free thinker aren't you.

Right now, the by word is get Arab, get Moslem. Kill those terrorist bastards.

Arabs no, terrorists yes. You seem to have a problem with that. Under islam, you would be called 'pate'. Grow up.

#260 -Titus

Why do you think Judith is a bigot?

I detected nothing remotely discriminating in her posts.

And you wrote:

"There's nothing subtle about noise pollution disguised as a call to prayer, when you don't have any choice about whether to hear it or not. "

So you realize that was the original purpose of the church bells, right?

So I guess you'll defend the rest of us when we say we don't want to hear these "christian calls to prayer" at 10:30 on Sunday morning when I'm trying to get some sleep, right?

#254:

A better name might lackidaisical reader.

Perhaps a better name for you would be "Opaque Writer". So I guess when I read:

This a right wing extremist site where intolerance of others goes with the ideology. Ever hear of White Nationalism, friend.

I somehow, lackidaisically, believed that you believed we were all white. Well, I guess I'll, um, "proudfully" stand by my reading comprehension skills.

So, back to my first question to you: notice any systemic problems in contemporary Islam? Anything at all come to mind?

#241 Occasional Reader

I honestly don't understand why self-described "conservatives" don't generally agree that the government should not be in the religion business. It's a basically conservative idea.

I honestly don't understand why people can't figure out that "establishing religion" is not the same thing as having laws which may be coincidental with religious beliefs based upon the mores of the large majority of the population.

The establishment clause prohibits just that - the *establishment* of religion. It says nothing about laws against abortion, homosexual marriage, or other things which may come under scrutiny due to the religious beliefs of segments of the nation's population. Passing a law restricting abortion is not the same thing as passing a law establishing the Presbyterian Church as the official state religion.

#263 Tman

Why do you think Judith is a bigot?

I detected nothing remotely discriminating in her posts.

Because of her whiny screeds against, for example, people standing out in front of their own church inviting people to come to church. If she doesn't want to go, she can politely decline the invitation, and be on her way.

So you realize that was the original purpose of the church bells, right?

So I guess you'll defend the rest of us when we say we don't want to hear these "christian calls to prayer" at 10:30 on Sunday morning when I'm trying to get some sleep, right?

Being that I've never lived in a place where church bells even rang at *any* time, I'd have to say I don't know the experience. However, you are also aware that your argument may have been relevant a hundred years ago, but now it not really so anymore?

#246 shergald

Ever hear of White Nationalism, friend.

White nationalism? i didn't realise white people all made up one nation...

/sarcasm

#265 TQC:

I honestly don't understand why people can't figure out that "establishing religion" is not the same thing as having laws which may be coincidental with religious beliefs based upon the mores of the large majority of the population.

First off, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said, or even implied, that our laws should somehow be entirely divorced from any religiously-based set of mores. Such a thing would be impossible. Go back and read my post #101--I explicitly recognized that our value system is Judeo-Christian based.

Secondly:

The establishment clause prohibits just that - the *establishment* of religion.

If the Founding Fathers had meant to say, "Congress shall make no law establishing a religion", they'd have written just that. They were very careful draftsmen. That's not what they wrote, as Tman very aptly demonstrated in #243.

It says nothing about laws against abortion, homosexual marriage, or other things which may come under scrutiny due to the religious beliefs of segments of the nation's population.

Again--who said anything about any of this in this thread? Please find me my post in which I argued that "laws against abortion are unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause."

#266 Titus...

Judith has every right to wish that she could walk down a street and not be solicited by religious groups. And once again, she wasn't discriminating in her tone. Prove to me where she was a bigot, around here you should back up that accusation more thoughtfully or don't use it at all.

"Being that I've never lived in a place where church bells even rang at *any* time, I'd have to say I don't know the experience."

So you don't know the experience yet you are attempting to rationalize the Christian versus the Islamic call to prayer?

What gives?

"However, you are also aware that your argument may have been relevant a hundred years ago, but now it not really so anymore? "

Not so my friend. It is still used as a call to prayer in several Christian communities. Including one near myself. Every Sunday. Like "clockwork" one might say.

But as you yourself stated, how would you know anyways?

#213 zulubaby

Funny, the church bells haven't been an issue until now ...

Next up: wind chimes!

#270 jrdroll:

Next up: wind chimes!

LOL. Indeed, why should we be forced to listen to anyone's expression of their Aelous-based cult?

#112 Occasional Reader 5/25/2004 10:25AM PST

If a prankster were to replace the mosque's recorded adhan with erotic limericks

easy just replace allah with shaytan then it will be true

#272 JimmytheClaw:

I've been racking my brain all afternoon to think of something dirty that rhymes with "Qom"...

The Mosque's neighbors should help out by also broadcasting the call to prayer on large loadspeakers - 180 degrees out of phase.

#84 you wrote "but then again islam is so diverse and ambiguous in its sources and interpretation that it could be manipulated in any which way that is useful to those doing the manipulating!"

If that is true, then it is long overdue for those Moslems who favor individual rights over collective rights, freedom of speech and religion, tolerance, separation of religion and state, and the entire panopoly of rights and civic understandings that we know of as The West, to stand up and make themselves heard.

Right now, the only sound coming out of the Muslim world is the sound of Jihad. And this group's public assertion to simply *ignore* both the wishes of their neighbors and the lawful City Council (if it chooses to revoke the permit) does not bode well for anybody. Perhaps some of the citizens will decide to flaunt laws as well, and assert the primacy of their own beliefs. Some of these citizens might want to do things that the Muslims will not like very much.

#262 JohnCV

Critique from the Heritage Foundation? You got to be kidding, but then I guess you aren't. Anyone who would tune into this place for knowledge is too indoctrinated to be helped. This post is useless.

#276 shergald:

You realize that you're deep into the realm of self-parody by now, don't you? "Conservatives are all indoctrinated... it's been scientifically proven... and anyone who disputes that is indoctrinated!" Hilarious.

By the way, you still haven't answered my question. But then reasoned argument isn't your strong suit, is it? You prefer to call people "racists" and then duck the question.

Something ironic just occurred to me: the Christian church in Jerusalem (I think) was not allowed by the Ottoman caliphate to ring its bells. The monks had to clap together wooden planks instead. Of course, they were allowed to stay as dhimmis because they're people of the book.

#223   R.Soul

I agree. Watt is a blathering ideologue, but he's been cited by many as an "appeal to authority" sort of argument in favor of Islam. Sort of like, "Even this well-respected Christian scholar, who's a reverend, sees that Islam is a peaceful and honorable religion."

#246   shergald

Tolerance is not a big suit [sic—should be strong suit] of those who wear the right wing conservative label proudfully. (emphasis mine)

heh That's one of the funniest neologisms I've seen in a while.