What next, a call for the implementation of sharia?

FOAD!

But Majewski in a BURQA.

Personally, I think I could add some traction to this slippery slope.

Oh yeah, sorry first!

#1 One Of These Days:

What next, a call for the implementation of sharia?

Oh, man, that train left the station long ago!

And so it begins with one small concesion...

Three killed as Lebanese army fires on petrol-price protest.

We need international protection!!

Massacre!!!

"Beirut, Beirut"

/no one.

I'm getting really sick of this "peace be upon him" crap. After all, this Muhammed guy was ANYTHING but peaceful. He slaughtered whole tribes, engaged in generally ruthless warefare, had sex with children (9 year old wife), ect... How about "peace be upon his victims" (pbuhv) from now on.

"It was not immediately known when the vote would be held in this enclave surrounded by the city of Detroit, but it is likely to be in the next few months.

In the meantime, Majewski said, the mosque can go ahead with its calls to prayer."

This is probably a good thing. Have people getting woken up by this call blaring over the PA and you're quite likely to "get out the vote" when it comes time to put a stop to it.

What do you suppose the response would be if it were a temple shouting out on loudspeakers "There is no God but YHVH and Moses is his messenger"? (tip to [Link: www.rokemneedlearts.com...] ).. or even , God Forbid, A church proclaiming 5 times a day that "Jesus is you lord and savior" ?

WELL! I wonder how Hamtramck would react to fundamentalist Jesus-freaks five times a day broadcasting "Jesus is the son of God! For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son ..." over loudspeakers that everyone can hear? And why, in the spirit of full disclosure, don't the Muslims have to tell everyone that the religion they're shouting about hates and advocates the extermination of Jews, uppity women, gays, Hindus, atheists and anyone else who isn't part of their medieval mindset?

If I ran the closest church near the mosque, I'd be setting up some speakers of my own, to broadcast right after the adnan...since they removed the noise ordinance might as well.
Let's see if the city council thinks people who complain about the church broadcasting 5 times a day are 'racist', since that is what they called those against being bombarded with the adnan 5 times a day.

Hurry to the prayer
Hurry to the prayer

Ramma lamma ding dong
goes the effen bell.

The council had voted unanimously last month to allow the Bangladeshi Al-Islah Mosque to broadcast the call to prayer five times a day.

How does Bangladesh get to decide what happens here in the US? Is the mosque off limits to all but Bangladeshi citizens?

#10

Jesus-freaks

{proud to be one!}

:)

Does this mean that Catholic ministries can continue to ring those loud church bells to call parishioners to church mass in the mornings and several times on Sunday?

Is it just me or are most of our politicians morons? I mean come on how much common sense and intelligence do you have to have to dig into these things and see what is really going on?

In fairness, if they ban the "call to prayer", they should also ban the ringing of church bells.

In a way, church bells are also a call to prayer.

Some states in the US are banning religious symbols and taking the 10 commandments of walls of courthouses, but they're allowing the muslim call to prayer to be broadcast over louspeakers and will wake up half the town!

Will the citizens of Hamtranck wake up and put a stop to this nonsense before they become the first dhimmis to pay jizya to the overly vocal Muslims there???

I suggest "Rock The Casbah" at full volume.

"Together We Will Conquer" -- Paul van Dyk

"These Boots Were Made For Walkin'" -- your favorite version

Anything by Kiss.

Coldplay -- A Rush of Blood to the Head

Newly added to play list: Olive, CD Trickle

That's just me exercising my First Amendment musical rights to play whatever I want loud on my stereo.

We've argued this before, and I'm not saying that Church bells bother me at all, but I absolutely gauruntee once the Muslims are rebuked from being allowed to violate the noise ordinances in such blatant and overt ways, they will argue that Christian churches are allowed to have calls to prayer (even though they aren't really calls, more like alarm bells) and by any standard included in the establishment clause, they would have a point.

The government does grant this particular noise ordinance privilege to churches, and would be hypocritical not to do it for any other religion. The only way to stop Muslims from taking this all the way to the top would be to refuse any religion at all from violating noise ordinances, including church bells.

It's coming down to this folks. This is not Christianity versus Islam, this is Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness versus 8th Century mindless Islamic fanaticism...and we MUST prevail...

Why do these chumps need to be called to prayer anyway. Can't zealots afford wristwatches.

This whole thing is un-American.

Blackman,

nice try. The churchbells ring on Sundays only, and not all day.

I'd imagine that when it's put to the vote, the Islamist community will find that their famikly friends and members will come and stay with them for a few days... inflating the voting figures to about 100,000... ;-)

what does

"hurry to the success
hurry to the success"
mean?

Is there a better translation?

(i.e., could it mean something like
"hurry to the victory"?
"hurry to the triumph"?
"hurry to the winning"?

just curious.

(Of course, I know that Islam is a RoP and
that even if it did translate as "victory",
that can only be interpreted in spiritual terms,
and shame upon me (SuM) for thinking
otherwise.

#17 Canuckistan

Do you get chruch bells at 5 in the moring every day?

I guess the biggest question is what city is next.

Yes but the church bells aren't rung out five times a day like the Muslim call to worship. Hell I'd rather hear bells than some dumbass calling out to worship at all hours of the day.

Meanwhile, in the nearby state of Ohio

CLEVELAND - The American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio and the City of Stow have written their final arguments in the contentious case of whether a Latin cross and Bible depicted in one quadrant of the city's official seal violates the First Amendment of the Constitution.

So I'm certain the ACLU is preparing its case right now against the outrageous establishment of religion in Michigan...

//sarcasm

Jamie Irons

#17 Canuckistan:

In fairness, if they ban the "call to prayer", they should also ban the ringing of church bells.

First of all, no matter how hard you try, you cannot equate the sound of bells with a verbal message. Second of all, in many towns, many church bells fulfill a secondary function of ringing the hours - it's a civic enhancement.

But most important - why should we bend over backwards to be "fair"? Why is it fair to put a civic imprimatur on a religious practice that gets in your face 5 times a day to proclaim its own superiority in public so no one can ignore it?

Here we go with the church bells discussion again.

Maybe we should just refer everybody to this thread.

These muslims are like children...if one has it they will all have to have it...imagine all the mosques in every city wailing at the same time...hope someone comes to their senses soon

#10 Robert Speirs

You beat me to it. I wonder how long it would take the ACLU to start seething if a Christian Church began belting out the Lord's Prayer on loudspeakers?

Funny thing is...church bells don't ding-dong with the sound "Jesus is your savior, Jesus is the greatest".

Where the heck is the ACLU in all this?
They usually get their panties in a bunch whenever God is even slightly involved.

Does anyone have an email address for this multi-CULT-eralist city council and/or mayor?

Got a few things to say especially about the slippery slope and the eventuality of Shar'ia law. Hey, these mullah meatheads got their wish here in Canada, I'm so ashamed to say.

Let's solve this problem by eliminating all religious practices and freedoms in this country...

//sarcastically repeating the logic that was argued by some before

At least the peal of church bells are part of our heritage and culture in the west... and they're tuneful too...

Church bells were used also to signal emergencies, used in the war to call for air raids, etc... what good is a minoret with the imam calling, unless of course, they call the faithful to jihad against the indifel??

I have many churches in my area, and have never once heard a church bell...one church downtown, where no one resides btw, rings the bells once on sunday morning.
A bell is a far cry from ALLAH AKBAR, ALLAH AKBAR, ALLAH AKBAR!!! five times a day.
If I had to wake up to that every morning I'd go nuts.
Especially considering Allah Akbar is the last thing people hear before being blown to bits or having their childrens legs blown off in front of them, or crashing into a building while riding a plane, or being beheaded by militant muslims.

Canuckistan:
Where do you live? I've lived in Winnipeg for about 16 years, and I don't remember hearing church bells--maybe once in a blue moon. I certainly don't think most churches here ring their bells regularly, even on a Sunday.

Where's the fucking ACLU on this intrusion of religion into the public square? No non Muslim wants to hear this crappy brainwashing. This stinking "adnan" is way of claiming you are under the purview of a certain mosque. That you are it's subject.

On the good side, Al Hamza "Capt. Hook" is in the hoosegow.

1. The Hamtramck City Council is not "feckless," Charles. Perhaps they should be considered courageous to take this action in the face of bigoted opposition and rabble-rousing such as you are fomenting.

2. Saying "there is no God but Allah," does not translate into an "explicit statement of superiority" except in the fevered minds of bigots like you.

Model4 - I think that may be the name of the mosque - like "Kennedy High School". I am not sure it signifies Bangladesh has anything to do with its operations.

I am no fan of Islam (pteuy) but can't see any legal reason to ban the call except for the noise ordinance itself. The practice of Islam - the more fully it is practiced - is incredibly intrusive into a society. The call is symptomatic of that - but I still can't justify banning it unless all similar things are banned as well. And I don't know if I want to live in a place that bans all public forms of faith.

Hey Blackman, if you ever heard a mosque's call to prayer, you would understand that it's alot more irritating than church bells.

#19 Beagle

I was thinking more along the lines of:

Anything from The Misfits

Anything Danzig

Turbonegro would do nicely

Rob Zombie maybe?

Slayer, Megadeth, oh yeah, DID I MENTION DANZIG??

I'm afraid I would have to park my ride next to the mosque and let "brand new god" scream @ about 100db.

/deviant

Ranger's Dad,

Sorry I didn't follow up in that thread, it reached the "too many posts to follow" point and I didn't have anything to add.

So I'll break it down like this.

If Christian Churches are allowed to ring their call to prayer and violate local noise ordinances in the process, even if it is only on Sundays, and even if it is only a bell, is this or is this not government granting a particular religious group special privilege, thereby violating the establishment clause?

Yes or no answer. I know how you feel about the establishment clause. Please show me why this isn't special privilege to Christianity..

This is nothing that throwing a Gordon or two through the loudspeak wouldn't cure...

Coming to a town near you...

[Link: english.aljazeera.net...]

Gordon

Keep a civil tongue in your head.

Calling your host a "bigot" makes me wonder what kind of upbringing you had.

Jamie Irons

33 Josh

Funny thing is...church bells don't ding-dong with the sound "Jesus is your savior, Jesus is the greatest".

What are you, an athiest! That's what the ding-dong means to me! (joking).

If the city council had any political finesse, they would have enacted public concert licensing (for public noisy events), and had a small charge of maybe $25 per event. Then they would have said church bells and a call to prayer both constitute a form of public concert. Then you can do the math and figure out who ends up paying more.

#28 Jamie Irons

So I'm certain the ACLU is preparing its case right now against the outrageous establishment of religion in Michigan...

They'll be saying that the imam call to prayer is quite legal... because they don't want to offend the Islamists and CAIR (with their terror connections)...

Only religions of the infidel must be outlawed according to some organisations!

Church bells are not always calls to prayer; they're often the melodies to hymns played after the service.

I don't think this issue is worth hyperventilating over.

If there's a noise ordinance, it should be applied across the board to churches, mosques, street carnivals, businesses, and suburban white kids pumping 50 Cent out of their daddy's BMWs at 100 decibals.

The law cannot make preferences between types of religious sounds, as that amounts to endorsing one type of religious practice.

But what is lost of the fair number of religion-hating Objectivist LGF readers is that the First Amendment doesn't give the government the power to impose restrictions on religious organizations that aren't imposed equally on secular organizations. As much as you Randies dislike religion, you can't selectively ban religious noise while allowing secular noise.

Yesss, mornin' gordo!

2. Saying "there is no God but Allah," does not translate into an "explicit statement of superiority" except in the fevered minds of bigots like you.

Gordon,

I disagree - well I think it is implict. It IS implying polytheists or even Christians are in error. A statement saying "Jesus is the Son of God" implies the same thing - and I bet if most Muslims heard that on a loud speaker 5 times a day they would think so too.

Gordon should be thrown out if only for his bad manners.

I thought Gordo had been cast into the dungeon?..

#10

Jesus-freaks
{proud to be one!}

:)

Me too...me too!!

:>p

Gordon (#40):

Perhaps they should be considered courageous to take this action in the face of bigoted opposition and rabble-rousing such as you are fomenting.

Cowardice is courage.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.
War Islam is peace.

Gordon is a contemptible dhimmi.

Which of the above statements is true?

#53 Zulubaby: Sorry, I'm not important enough to be banned, like VFI and Conventbabe and Ranbutan were. Just ask Charles.

Charles' obsession with this story and the nasty vitriol of his comments qualify as bigotry. The truth sometimes hurts, Zulubaby.

Allah is not great, however, America is.

@19 Beagle

"Lucid Dreaming" by QueensRyche :)

Gordons is still in a pissy mood because of his tattoo.

Just out of curiousity, I wonder what Tman thinks of the statement by Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story in his 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution,

"The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government."

Or this one, from his Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States,

"We are not to attribute this prohibition of a national religious establishment to an indifference to religion in general, and especially to Christianity (which none could hold in more reverence than the framers of the Constitution)...

"Probably, at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, and of the Amendment to it now under consideration, the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the State so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship."

Again, just curious what Tman thinks about the interpretation of the Establishment clause shown by one of the foremost constitutional jurists in the early Republic, a man who personally knew most of the framers of the Constitution, and who was appointed to the Supreme Court by James Madison in 1811, etc. etc.

If a secular group was making "secular noise" at 4:30am, the neighbors would call the cops, and the cops would come shut down the party.

zulubaby (#53):

Gordon should be thrown out if only for his bad manners.

An abject dhimmi and a raging asshole: quite a combination.

#44 Tman

I agree, if a city or town has a noise ordinance and church bells exceed the decibel level, they should come under the same enforcement as any other religious house of worship.

I don't agree with all the arguments that were being made last time about not being able to stand out on a public sidewalk and hand out tracts or invite people to know Jesus. Freedom of religion includes freedom in the public square.

(I do agree with the establishment clause, exactly as it is worded in the Constitution. Not so much with how it is being interpreted many times by our judiciary, but that's another topic.)

#40 Gordon

It appears that Allah is many Gods... but not the God of the Bible.

Essentially, we must understand and accept that Allah of the Islamic religion is NOT the same as the God of the Bible. Allah can be traced backwards through ancient Near Eastern religious history as the latest development in a series of astral and atmospheric deities in the ancient Semitic world, all the way back to very ancient Mesopotamia, the original seat of both civilisation, and also idolatry. Muslims, when they worship Allah, are not worshipping the true Creator God, but are rather worshipping a false god, one whose worship is condemned in the Bible:

“...And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either, the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded.” (Deuteronomy 17:4)

"And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them all that burned offering unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.” (II Kings 23:5)

For the Muslim who wished to deny or ignore this evidence, the question is posed: Why does Islam have such a fixation with the crescent moon symbol, a symbol which is intimately and widely associated with the worship of the moon god throughout history, under whatever name, in Sumer, Akkad, Syria, Persia, Canaan, Egypt, and Arabia? Though many Muslims will argue that the crescent moon symbology entered Islam very late as a result of Turkish influence in the 15th century, this is simply not the case. The evidence for the crescent moon as a religious symbol in Islam goes back to 75 AH (696 AD), where it is used as a symbol on coins94. Why do many mosques and other Islamic religious buildings have depictions of the crescent moon on their spires and pinnacles? Why do the flags of twelve Muslim nations (Algeria, Azerbaijan, Brunei, Comoros, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Pakistan, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan) go so far as to include this crescent moon symbol? Why is the knowledge of the timing of the hilal, the crescent moon, so important for starting the Muslim holy month of fasting, Ramadan? All the evidence points to the fact of the moon symbol being important to the early Arabs among whom the religion of Islam gradually developed, and that this pre-Islamic pagan symbol was imported into Islam, along with the rest of the ancient trappings.

For the Muslim to be free of idolatry means, ultimately, that he or she must turn from Islam, with its worship of this created god, and turn to the True Creator God of the Bible, who has said that He will not share His glory with other “gods” (Isaiah 42:8).

In short, the notion that Allah is the same as the God of the Bible, and that Allah is just the fullest revelation of God who had previously been revealed in the Torah and the Bible, must be rejected.

"There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews".

The God of the Bible is not the same as the Allah worshipped in Islam. Instead, the roots of Islam's deity are found in Middle Eastern mythology, and as such represent the latest manifestation of idolatry in that region, and wherever Islam has spread.

[Link: www.studytoanswer.net...]

#57 Gordon

I just re-read Charles' post. I am unable to detect any "nasty vitriol." I do, however, note some juvenile name-calling on your part.

#40 Gordon

This is your colonialism at its most apparent: you know nothing about Islam, haven't a clue about this religion, have never read the primary religious documents, wouldn't know the Sunnah from a Sharia. Muhammed was very clear: there are to be no other religions but Islam, there is to be no other government except Islam, the non-believers are to be killed. Your fantasies about culture of which we both know you are ignorant were detailed in a fine book by Lederer & Burdick entitled The Ugly American. You need to read that book first and then mend your ways.

#44, Tman

Please show me why this isn't special privilege to Christianity..

The country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

Death to the infidels, remember that part??

Charles' obsession with this story and the nasty vitriol of his comments qualify as bigotry.

A camel's nose under the tent, Gordon.

Gordo's like a (not particularly bright) dog with a bone. He thinks he scored a clever one on Charles here - and now he's worrying at it with his little paws and teeth and pretending he's actually fighting with something he can handle.

#57 Gordon (LGF pet monkey)

This is what you consider 'nasty vitriol':

And here’s a translation of the adhan; note that the Hamtramck City Council sees nothing wrong with allowing mosques to broadcast an explicit statement of Islam’s superiority to all other religions, five times a day:

Oooohh. That evil, evil man.

#15 Blackman

Does this mean that Catholic ministries can continue to ring those loud church bells to call parishioners to church mass in the mornings and several times on Sunday?

I don't recall a church ringing bells at 4:30am. Nor do I believe that a church rings their bells 5 times per day. Perhaps a bell is rung at the top of the hour, in which case it's not a call to prayer. I haven't heard a Pastor screaming over a loud speaker either.

I believe a poster from Canada did mention that a local church in her area does play hymns.

I still don't see how the islamic call to prayer can in any way be compared to a church bell.

@40 Gordon

Why do you have to be reminded where you are posting?
Why don't you STHU.
I'm SICK of your whinging morass, take your fat arse elsewhere and DONT COME BACK.

Well, here is just one more reason not to visit michigan. IT's really sad that this is even up for vote. COuld you imaging if churches and synagoues were doing this at the same time. It's not like they are living in iran. it's michigan.

Is there any doubt, any doubt whatsoever, that if a Church were to broadcast, even once:

God is great, God is great
God is great, God is great

I bear witness to the holy trinity, there is no deity but God
I bear witness to the holy trinity, there is no deity but God

I bear witness that Jesus is the Son of God
I bear witness that Jesus is the Son of God

Hurry to the prayer
Hurry to the prayer

Hurry to the success
Hurry to the success

God is great, God is great

There is no deity but God

that the ACLU would be having kittens?

In the spirit of compromise, how about the mosque get rid of the call and just ring bells instead? How about it, eh? Is 'compromise' even in the Islamic dictionary?

Victoria - where in Va? Hampton Roads here

Ni!

Allah is gone, Allah is gone
Allah is gone, Allah is gone

I bear my pecker at Abu Ghraib
I bear my pecker at Abu Ghraib

I bear my ass to my brother at Abu Ghraib
I bear my ass to my brother at Abu Ghraib

Hurry to the cells
Hurry to the cells

I should'a stayed home
I should'a stayed home

Allah is gone, Allah is gone

"What will people think when they hear that I'm a Jesus Freak?
What will people do when they find that it's true.
I don't really care if they label me a Jesus freak.
There ain't no disguising the truth!"

(DC Talk)

cba

Where do you live? I've lived in Winnipeg for about 16 years, and I don't remember hearing church bells.

Hmmm, do I know you? I rarely if ever hear church bells in Wpg. I don't know what the situation in Michigan is though. The point is, because of the whole separation of church and state thing, it may be legal to ban calls to prayer, so long as the ban is applied equally to all religions.

So Gordon, you wouldnt mind if tomorrow morning at sunrise you were woken up by the lord's prayer being blasted in your neighborhood?...and this would happen every morning, for as long as you lived in your home?
And not only that but five times a day.
And if your neighbors complained, would you call them bigots or no?

OT:

It's the Economy, Meatheads

The next time I hear some blathering idiot talk about how shitty the economy is, I'm going to head-butt them. How would it be? To create an alternate reality?

oh yeah:

#62 Josh

NO DOUBT!

Don't forget, Allah's prophet Muhammed frequently gets equal billing in the Koran. No "buts". I'm talking "ands".

Gordon, the call to prayer is loud, intruding and obnoxious. Just like you. No wonder you like it.

Seriously though, this is an imposition of a religious belief if I ever saw one. If you live in town, there is no way to avoid hearing the prayer. Not to mention that due to cultural differences most people in town will find the melody (or lack of it) incredibly irritating.

#79 Canuckistan:
You're from the Peg?!! LOL! Email me... let me know when you do, because I rarely check my "lgf" account unless someone tells me they've sent something there.

#72 Victoria (VA girl):

I believe a poster from Canada did mention that a local church in her area does play hymns.

That's interesting, but I don't know if it's that common.

Knight who says Ni (#76),

Is 'compromise' even in the Islamic dictionary?

No, but lying, treachery and false treaties are.

#80 TS,

That reminds me of a story - a few years back in NYC, Muslims were granted the right to pray in public schools. A Catholic Bishop (IIRC on the title) wrote a letter to the school and said How wonderful this news is! He was looking forward to Christian students organinzing prayer groups in the school as well and welcomed this change in school policy.

The school then rescinded its policy of allowing Muslim prayer.

It is funny but sad that what they are so willing to do for Muslims they would rather slit their wrists than allow for Christians - yet they don't see their own bias.

@44 Tman

Maybe you should go and read some American History. This country is founded, based and run on Judeo/Christian premises. We started out this way, why are we being forced to change it for some intrusive immigrants who are ONLY here to invade, conquor and dhimmi the ones who don't convert or die?
How ignorant can you get? If the bells go, then next will be the foundation teachings in the church itself. Then when and where and what time we can worship. You just don't get it, our religious freedoms are being assaulted, taken away in increments. It always starts with some nitpicking small thing and advances to the major areas. Or maybe you're one of those who would like to see ALL religious affliation and association to be deleted and destroyed in this country. You watch this country really go down the toilet then. It leaves us nothing to base ourselves on but our own warlike cruel past behaviour. Which by the way has shown NO slowing down or changing. Humans aren't sheep, they're wolves.

Would Gordon care to explain to me how "There is no god but Allah" isn't an explicit statement of superiority?

Maybe it only claims superiority over the polytheist religions. (As an aside, do Hindus consider themselves polytheists?)

However "I bear witness that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of Allah" pretty much even rules out the other monotheistic religions, doesn't it?

For a while, Gordo seemed like he was becoming enlightened, but for about the last six months he has regressed to the standard "the election was stolen"/"Bush Lied-People Died"/Dean for President kind of moon-battiness.

#77 LOL!

Wait... her name is Karen Majewski?

There's a "jew" in Majewski.

JOOOS!

Really I see the what the big deal is. Five times a day, everyday. Fun :-)

OT

A new legal defense:

Al-Qaeda made me do it

Roche feared al-Qaeda
27/05/2004 11:27 - (SA)

Perth - A British-born Islamic convert accused of plotting to blow up the Israeli embassy in Canberra told his trial here on Thursday that he agreed to follow al-Qaeda orders to avoid being killed.

Jack Roche, 50, earlier admitted meeting with al-Qaeda leaders during a trip to Afghanistan in 2000 and said he carried out surveillance and tried unsuccessfully to recruit militants to carry out attacks in Australia.

But in his second day of testimony on Thursday, Roche said he had later been shocked to learn the identities of some of the people he had met in Afghanistan when he logged onto a website showing the US FBI's most wanted fugitives.

"I was shocked. I was really taken aback," he said, saying he recognised five or six people he had met with in Afghanistan.

"I was thinking 'this is too much - this is very, very deep'," he said.

During his trip to Afghanistan, Roche - who has admitted being a member of the Southeast Asian Islamic group Jemaah Islamiah (JI) - briefly met al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

Bomb "never mentioned"

He then talked at length with other senior al-Qaeda members he named as Abu Hafs and Saif, saying they quizzed him about Israeli government interests in Australia, as well as prominent Melbourne Jewish businessman Joe Gutnick.

"I really had no idea where they were going with this but the cogs were starting to turn," he said.

Hmm, just where would they be going with that, Jack?

Church bells don't have words!...They just go Ding- Dong, Ding-Dong. They mark the time of day.
If the local Catholic church started blasting the Lords Prayer five times a day I'd be against that too.

I suggest that the good folks of Hamtramck start hitting their car horns every time that creepy voice starts echoing through the streets.

Until our Churches, Temples, Sinagogues, Terreiros, DoJos, and esotic dance discos (for Pagans), will not be allowed in EVERY muslim country, this will be just another step of the invasion and of the establishment of the caliphate.

RECIPROCITY.

Another interesting word they ignore.

#76 Knight

Victoria - where in Va? Hampton Roads here

Leesburg. Howdy!

Can my #91 be anymore freaking incoherent. Haven't been drinking yet...I swear.

#14 Ranger's Dad
#10

Jesus-freaks

{proud to be one!}

:)

Count me IN on that list!

Jesus is the Son of God and mankind's savior. A spiritual being whispered into The False Prophet's (pbuhv) ear that Jesus was just a prophet. Guess who sent that spirit? Satan. Thus, who was it that this spirit commanded The False Prophet (pbuhv) to worship? "The diety" Satan.

What a start -- no wonder it's TROPMA. That is EXACTLY what its "diety" wants!

(Thanks, happycynic, for that (pbuhv) idea!)

Well, just got some work to do.

Guess I'll catch the rest of the discussion later...

#61 Titus,

"Just out of curiousity, I wonder what Tman thinks of the statement by Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story in his 1833 Commentaries on the Constitution,

"The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government."

I think that that goes along with what I'm saying. "prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government."-means the government shouldn't allow Churches to violate noise ordinances just because they are churches. Or Mosques, or Daddys spoiled brat blasting 50 cent in dads beemer.

And this part-

"Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the State so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship."

I completely disagree with. NO RELIGION should get "encouragement from the state" period. Just because this scholar has his opinions doesn't mean he isn't wrong. Jefferson was quite clear about preventing the State from encouraging any one specific religion.

Rangers Dad,

"I agree, if a city or town has a noise ordinance and church bells exceed the decibel level, they should come under the same enforcement as any other religious house of worship."

That's all I'm saying. And I GAURUNTEE YOU once again this is what the courts will be forced to do once the Muslims appeal the eventual decision.

Where I live, the bells wake us up at 5.30am and you know what? I am delighted to hear them.

Escaped here from France and now live in the country which does NOT produce cuckoo clocks. And the people here are prepared to fight for their/our freedoms.

btw. Shooting practice at the village range next Saturday for the village soldiers.

OK. We do have the problem of cow bells which can be very attractive - but when they are outside your window from 7am till 5pm can be annoying.

Why do cows have bells, one wonders?

Because their horns don't work.

Charles' obsession with this story and the nasty vitriol of his comments qualify as bigotry.

Gordon's obsession with Charles, and the nasty vitriol of his comments against him qualify as...?

Sorry, forgot that Gordon's a liberal. No standards of logic or conduct shall ever trump his immediate emotional needs. And his right to inflict them on others.

You're a small man Gordon. I'm sorry the pain you carry around forces you to act this way. In your childish arithmetic I suppose that every bit you dish out to someone else will lessen your suffering. But just like any other addict, that momentary high is replaced with a longer and harsher low, forcing you to do more and more.

I've seen you over many months change from a relatively cheery person with some views I couldn't abide, to a cruel and hateful wretch that exists to drag others down into his own fetid pit. Put down the hate Gordon, turn your back on it, and walk away. It may be hard to do right now, but it's only going to be harder the longer you cling to it. It'll be sooner than you think that you're glad you did.

#96 RWC

That could be the problem. Maybe we should get going my friend!!

#87 quark

You have some reading to do yourself there big fella..

Start here and let me know how "ignorant" I am after reading it-

[Link: www.rationalrevolution.net...]

Especially this part-

The founding of the United States of America took place in 1787 with the signing of the Constitution, which is a purely secular document. In relation to religion the Constitution states:

Article VI: Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

In relation to taking the Oath of Office the Constitution simply states:

Article II Section I: Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

@99 Tman

I guarantee you are NOT going to like the deadly silence we're about to be accosted by either.
The muslims have discovered by using this as a weapon against christian churches they can completely shut them ALL down. Maybe next there will be regulations that are in place that all churches have to be SOUNDPROOF, so that no singing or preaching can be heard from the outside walls. When our religious freedoms are torn down, you think it's going to stop there? If so, then you are a fool.

Re: #93:

Church bells don't have words!...They just go Ding- Dong, Ding-Dong. They mark the time of day.
If the local Catholic church started blasting the Lords Prayer five times a day I'd be against that too.

I agree. Church bells are a call to come pray. The adhan - regardless of what it is nominally called - it in fact itself a prayer.

Also, church bells, as others have written, may signify (or may have signified) other things: weddings, funerals, mass, air raids, etc.

To me, that is the difference. The bells is a noise calling those who wish to come pray. The adhan broadcast through the city is forcing a prayer on all inhabitants of the city.

Thus, I agree, if the mosque wants to ring a bell to call those to come pray, no problem. But, the adhan simply throws prayers out there on everyone - even if they don't want them.

#94 Poitiers-Lepanto

Reciprocity is a word unheard of in Islam... they want it ALL their own way and if they can't have it, they'll just take it!

They have a false god, who is one of many pagan gods they call Allah (Molech), they have a religion where the true adherents tend to sacrifice their children, and they kill infidel as blood sacrifices to their god... shouting allahu akbar when they've taken a life!

Blood sacrifice isn't the demand of any spiritual, kind, tolerant or universally good creator... it's satanism!

My eyes fill with tears,
they spill down my cheeks
and through my fingers.
Will the false prophet
and his evil twin
win this round?
Great ignorance abounds.

For in the beginning was the word
whose sound makes a path
through the brain,
makes an imprint on the soul.
Will these evil sounds fly through the air,
like demons heading for their lair?

#76 Knight who says Ni

Is 'compromise' even in the Islamic dictionary?

NO. (see "A culture of Compromise")

Quote:"A few years ago, I discovered that there is no equivalent in the Arabic language, classical or colloquial, for the English word ‘compromise’"

the poetess, do you speak in poem too?

I sure hope the normal Hamtrackers win out.

NO ONE should hear that off-key chanting five times a day. I've heard old-school gospel music sung by eighty-year old ladies that sounded better. (and I wouldn't force the latter on a *deiphobe*, let alone the former.)

I've also heard church bells. They sound NOTHING like the adhan. The bells are background noise in our culture.

#107 the poetess

Thank you...

We No Longer Have Freedoms to Question the Decisions of our Government in the United States!

Orland Park (SW Suburb of Chicago) had a committee meeting last night regarding the The zoning and building of a Mosque.

This Mosque will be the biggest Mosque in the midwestern US

Last night at the meeting---Orland residents were not allowed to ask where the funds were coming from for the building of the gargantuan structure (22,000-square-foot Orland Park Prayer Center )
Any residents that brought up the fact of Wahhabism or Terrorism was shouted down by representatives of CAIR!

Anyone who tried to bring up the fact that the >nearby Bridgeview Mosque openly supported Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad---Were shouted down and called racists!!!

Any residents that questioned the violence associated with Islam and terrorism was shouted down and called racist!

Opponents of the mosque, who made up about two-thirds of the crowd, repeatedly said they feared Islamic extremists would bring violence to the community.

Any answering shouts from the Orland Residents resulted in them being forcibly carried from the building!

Five men---all United States citizens,--- were forcibly ejected from the Chamber of their local government because they disagreed with the agenda of the commitee.

"Five men---all United States citizens,--- were forcibly ejected from the Chamber of their local government because they disagreed with the agenda of the commitee.
"
(It was five men despite the bias in this article)

OPPOSING VOICES WERE NOT ALLOWED TO BE HEARD!--- IN FACT THEY WERE FORCIBLY SILENCED

Are we in America any longer??? Is it time to circle the wagons???

Plans for the 22,000-square-foot Orland Park Prayer Center were approved by the plan commission May 11 despite protests of more than 150 people.

(#76) Knight who says Ni

May I bring you a shrubbery?

;-)

Jamie Irons

Fill in the blank:

Church bells are to Christian weddings as ___ is to Islamic weddings.

A. The adnan
or
B. AK-47 gunfire

Chew on that for a minute.

At another time there might be a way for it to be okay. But with that religion so famously at war with us its like having some brownshirt seig heiling at passers-by from his beerhall roof all day.

The fact is, "ding dong ding dong..." is not an explicitly religious message. If Christians blasted "Jesus saves" 5 times a day that would be different.

I really hope the town gets a good turnout from those opposed, otherwise they should take it all the way to the supreme court.

Bells are a call to come pray, the Adhan itself is a prayer. If children are being prevented from saying grace over their school lunches, because, G-d forbid, some other child might hear it and be offended, I sure as heck shouldn't be required to hear the Adhan 5 times a day. And if the link given above is typical, this call lasts 5 minutes! That's almost half an hour a day of forcing me to participate in a religion that isn't mine.

So no, I don't think bells are quite the same thing, and the noise ordinance shouldn't have anything to do with it.

#112 fiery celt

It's tie to bring the matter of the Orland mosque (probably funded by Saudis), out into the wider blogosphere and hope that some enterprising Orland resident will get a larger petition against this proposed structure... hopefully, a nationwide petition - where CAIR (the biggest US Islamic terror organisation) won't be able to call racism at any hint that terrorists are operating in the area!

It's time for Americans to reclaim America by getting rid of PC and the despicable racism that CAIR and similar organisation practice!

#115 Luigi

some brownshirt seig heiling at passers-by from his beerhall roof all day

The ACLU has been alerted and are prepared to defend his exercise of free speech!

/czar chasm

#99 Tman

Here's a link to Justice Story's COMMENTARIES ON THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.

The First Amendment comments start HERE, I believe.

# 105 Fool

If the local mosque can amplify "Allah is great" and "there is no deity but Allah"... I can see no reason why the local Church of Satan can't blast "Hail Lucifer" and "Satan is king" five times a day. What's the difference?

To the list of proposed musical selections that might be played as counter-sound:

I suggest GOD BLESS AMERICA.

That would vex "them" especially because it was written by a Jewish immigrant to the US.

Hurry to the prayer
Hurry to the prayer

Several hundred men walk double-time towards the mosque...

Hurry to the success
Hurry to the success

They all stop suddenly...momentary looks of confusion...

...all turn left, and head towards the synagogue down the street.

#122 Mockingbird

I would suggest "American Bad Ass" by Kid Rock.

It was the song played by sailors on the USS Cole as it left harbor in Aden.

Plus, Kid Rock is a Detroit boy. Stone Cold Pimpin'!

#104 quark

"I guarantee you are NOT going to like the deadly silence we're about to be accosted by either. "

Either way, the less religions breaking noise ordinances the better as far as I'm concerned. You will not convince me that the US Constitution was set up to favor Christianity or any other religion for that matter. It's a question of hypocrisy.

"The muslims have discovered by using this as a weapon against christian churches they can completely shut them ALL down."

And in the process they will be denied the right to blare their ridiculous call to prayer. And you honestly think they will be able to "shut down" ALL of the churches?

" Maybe next there will be regulations that are in place that all churches have to be SOUNDPROOF, so that no singing or preaching can be heard from the outside walls. When our religious freedoms are torn down, you think it's going to stop there? If so, then you are a fool. "

Your religious freedoms stop once they intrude on my right to not be disturbed when I'm sleeping by religious noises, bells, calls to prayer or whatever.

If you think your religious freedoms should be allowed special privilege within a local noise ordinance, than you didn't read the constitution.

Just from a purely secular legal, constitutional, founding principles standpoint, this sucks. Thank you, that is all.

Simple example, competing religious horns blowing all over town. Islam is not the supreme religion of the United States. Not any religion is.

If you want to get legally geeky, it's possible to put religion all over the land, practically everywhere. This is an effort to subject people to an establisment of religion.

Opinions may vary, but mine won't.

TMAN

[Link: www.archives.gov...]

A little reading for you.

And for your infomation, I'm not a big

fella.

#65 Nanette: I disagree with you and your scholarly backup on this issue. His view of the relationship of Islam to Christianity and Judaism is a decidedly minority opinion. That doesn't necessarily make it wrong, but until I see better arguments than these, I will stay with the majority opinion..

If you're going to bring moon symbology into this, please note that the fixing of major Jewish religious holidays as well as Easter are based not on calendar days, but on moon cycles. So Ramadan isn't so unusual after all.

I believe that all of the other belief systems condemned in your quoted Biblical passages were polytheistic systems, where a moon god was one of many deities. Islam certainly can be differentiated from any of these belief systems quite easily. The only monotheistic faith I am aware of other than the "Big Three" is Zoroastrianism, which as I understand it worship God through fire, rather than the moon. Plus Islam extirpated that particular religion after Mohammed's death, when the faith had been pretty much set in stone.

As for pagan symbologies, when did the Christmas tree become a Christian symbol? It's origins are also pagan in nature. And the convenient fact that Christ's birthday was arbitrarily set at the same time as the Roman Saturnalia festivals indicates Christian co-opting of Pagan customs. Why don't you and your source make sneering comments about Christianity based upon these facts?

As a Christian, I have no doubt that Muslims have strayed from the true path of enlightenment regarding our Lord. But then so have Jews, who refuse to recognize Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God.

I also have no doubt that radical Muslim interpretations of the will of God reflect the fact that they have succumbed to evil and the wiles of God's great enemy below.

But we all worship the same God. Your source's arguments are, ultimately, rebuttable.

#24 Seahawk:
We had a big discussion about that when evariste was still here *sigh*. Actually falaah tranlates more accurately as 'fruitful rewards' or 'flourishing'. I don't know whose translation Charles is using.
And Islam doesn't mean 'peace'-- it means 'submission'.
Arabic is a very supple and flexible language-- interpretation is not just context dependent, but inflection dependent, that is tranlation depends on how words sound.

#112
It's past time to circle the wagons. When the hell is enough going to be enough?!?! Why is it that city councils are filled with near-commie, pc-brainwashed mind-controlled thought police? Even in our little town we are inundated with city council memebers who froth at the word WalMart, who seethe at us plebs and out Christianity.

#7 happycynic 5/27/2004 09:53AM PST
"How about "peace be upon his victims" (pbuhv) from now on. "

I *like* that! G-d knows, the roll of his victims is still increasing daily.

Mo' (pbuhv) and his buddy Satan--er, Big Al have a lot to answer for at their judgements.

CIVIC COWARDICE OR CUNNING?
As for the Ham-let, its "bravery" in choosing a vote some months from now may give the neighbors enough of a taste to be truly disgusted, rather than uninformed. Consider that the implementation is in mid-summer, when the calls will be at their earliest and latest. Everybody gets a nice, long taste of the *worst* end of the timing spectrum before the vote. ;^D

BLINDSPOT IN A HERD MENTALITY
Abdul Motlib said, “Hamtramck has 23,000 people. If 500 or 600 people go against us, we’re not losing nothing.”

This man is used to a group that *acts* as a homogenous whole, no matter what private opinions may be. Either he is spewing propaganda, or he doesn't grasp the idea that one active complainer represents at least 10-20 more who agree but won't go on record in public.

We have about 3% of the population signing petitions, which represents somewhere between 30-50% of the population *before* the annoyance begins. And, while the "user" population is pretty much set--how many conversions and immigrants will they acquire in a few months?, the objectors have not yet begun to campaign seriously toward a goal (like an election date).
Doesn't look good for the screecher.

But it may be a learning curve opportunity for the "legal precedence" concept, which could harm U.S. freedom maintenance in the long run.

One question which isn't clear: what is the current noise ordiance of the town? What exactly does it say?

I am of the opinion that the adhan broadcast should be treated like any other source of noise. If the local law says that you can't make loud noise before 7 am and after 11 pm, then hold them (and everyone else) to that. If there is no noise ordinance, than

I have seen other houses of worship fined for violating noise laws (mostly for wedding DJs & parties that run late & make too much noise).

The content of the noise should not matter. If the law says I can make 80 decibels of noise during the day, then it is a violation of the first amendment to regulate the content, be it political speech, stereo, motorcycle or religious songs.

How loud does the RoP plan to broadcast?

I think if I were a resident of this town, I'd build one of these. That might just get a noise ordinance passed.

Where the heck is the ACLU in all this? They usually get their panties in a bunch whenever God is even slightly involved.

How wrong you are about the ACLU. They are not against religion, they are against christianity. The evidence bears this out again and again.

re Getting used to prayer calls...

As I mentioned on another thread, I moved from the US to Israel

#112 Fiery Celt - I am mortified. Oh, and nice, balanced "reporting" by that Dan Lavoie asshole.

#87: ALERT, ALERT! ACLULOGIC BEING USED! SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT SIGHTED ON THE STARBOARD BOW! ALL HANDS ON DECK!

not sure why the whole thing didn't post; will try again :-(

#123 Frank IBC

LOL. Too funny...

re Getting used to prayer calls...

As I mentioned on another thread, I moved from the US to Israel less than 1 year ago. My community is situated near a "no man's land" area near the '67 borders. There are about 3 Arab villages within about a 1 mile radius and another just a bit further away.

It's one thing to hear the "call to prayer" during the day, but I've got to tell you that the 3:30 - 4:30 AM calls still freak me out. It wouldn't be too bad if they kept the volume at a reasonable level. But it seems like the speakers are raised up and directed toward our community blasting away! And when you hear all them at once, in a discordant, chaotic, un-harmonious (sic?) glaring jumble of noise it's REALLY jarring.

(Not to mention, btw, that after terrorist attacks they tend to broadcast happy music and singing)

I spoke to a neighbor about it and he said that with time you don't really get used to it, but you curse less. Not much of a consolation.

A few things to keep in mind:

1. Churches, businesses, private citizens can make noise, but that noise may be regulated according to volume, frequency, and time of day. The local high school may be responsible for noisy crowds during football games, but that's OK. However, having the same noise all day long, or in the middle of the night, or year-round, would be unrealistic. The Moslems should have the same restrictions that churches do. That is, you can't yell stuff at 5 in the mornig, and you can't yell it any louder than a typical church bell.

2. The same reasoning applies to buildings and signs. You might have a sign out in front of your church, but a billboard would be too much. You might have a large building on the grounds, but a cathedral might be turned down by the zoning board.

3. "Special privileges" occur all the time in society. Churches are allowed to ring bells because they are not generally considered offensive. Streets might be blocked off to accomodate the local Greek festival, or whatever. Police officers might be used to direct traffic for the funeral of a prominent citizen. These privileges occur infrequently or within the normal bounds of social acceptance. Yelling prayers five times a day, every day, is not generally acceptable.

The Moslems better learn to compromise.

#40 Gordon

Saying "there is no God but Allah," does not translate into an "explicit statement of superiority."

With all due respect, is there a large enough scale we can use to determine just how magnanimous of a schmuck you truly are?

Contradictions are apparently located in Aisle 40.

113:

Yes! But one that looks nice ... and not too expensive

Victoria - darn near in Maryland, eh

Ni!

@125 Tman
You're taking this to an extreme, unless you have a church outside of your bedroom window.
If we're going to do away with any religious sounds/noise, let's do away with street noises, bicycle bells, dogs barking, you snoring, birds singing, planes overhead noise, lawnmower noise, vehicle horn noise. Let's make it soundproof outside so you can sleep with no interruptions.
And yes, islam has every intention of shutting down all christian activity here, just as it is in Saudia Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, and others as Syria. This cult will not tolerate any competition from another faith or religion.
If we don't voluntarily quit, they'll take care of it for us by slicing off our heads just like Pearle and Berg.

I'll say this again, this country was and is based on Judeo/Christian premises. In.G-d.We.Trust.

#106 Nanette: in #65 you actually sounded rational (if probably wrong). In this post you sound like a raving moonbat. You've apparently bought into another one of Charles more ridiculous theories; that Islam is devoted to human sacrifice typical of the old Canaanites, Phoenicians, and Carthaginians. Allah=Molech is an absurd, hateful, stupid thing to expound. It's as bad in its own way as were certain lies told about another religion and its proponents during the earlier part of the last century. You should be ashamed of yourself.

#121 Ringo the Gringo 5/27/2004 11:05AM PST

# 105 Fool

If the local mosque can amplify "Allah is great" and "there is no deity but Allah"... I can see no reason why the local Church of Satan can't blast "Hail Lucifer" and "Satan is king" five times a day. What's the difference?

better yet replace the word allah with satan for the unholy call to prayer

Section 1 of Ordinance No. 434 shall be amended to add Subsection K, which shall read as follows:

1. The City shall permit "call to prayer" "church bells" and other reasonable means of announcing religious meetings to be amplified between the hours of 6:00 a.m. and 10:00 p.m. for a duration not to exceed five minutes.

2. The City Council shall have sole authority to set the level of amplification, provided however; that no such level shall be enforced until all religious institutions receive notice of such levels.

PUBLIC HEARING REGARDING A PROPOSED ORDINANCE

Let's hope the local mosques syncronize swatches.

Hamtramck prayer times

#13 Model4 5/27/2004 09:57AM PST
"How does Bangladesh get to decide what happens here in the US? Is the mosque off limits to all but Bangladeshi citizens? "

Good questions! I'm not there, but I can give you the general concepts and Islogical specifics. ('m edjumicated about sociology an' stuff. ;^})

Like other widely represented organizations, people of the same ethnicity and language tend to congregate. Besides, immigrants bring in more members of their own families every year, in addition to births. So you get groups that tend to be segregated by language, nationaliity, etc. (in spite of encouragement to take Arabic names, dress, culture, etc.)

Also, remember that Arabic uses the same word for "black" and "slave." And surely Big Al (pbuhv) is colorblind--NOT.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Like Gordon would know anything about shame.

Gordon has a point here. The Islamofascists don't sacrifice people anymore...only their daughter's clitorises...

#112 fiery celt: as a professional in the field, I can tell you that religious bigotry is no basis for making a land use decision over whether any variety of religious institution can locate within a community. For you to support such obnoxious behavior shows your true intolerance and anti-Americanism.

Beagle:

How about Something For Nothing by Rush?

#17 Canuckistan 5/27/2004 09:59AM PST
"In fairness, if they ban the "call to prayer", they should also ban the ringing of church bells.

In a way, church bells are also a call to prayer. "

In a way, automotive vehicles are a transport to prayer.

"They" should also ban cars, planes, trains, and *even* SUVs (which surely have their own religions).

*logic cells whimper*

#123 Frank IBC:
LOL!

#77 Sheihk Kaffir: I think it would make more sense if you said 'bare'' instead of 'bear'. :)

Sorry, but didn't Globular Clusters resolve this whole thing the other day? Under Freedom of Religion, the adnan can be called, not broadcast with loudspeakers.

#24 Seahawk: Also, I think Outsider pointed out that the root of falaah is the arabic for 'farmer', which would tend to make 'fruitful rewards' the favorite.

Suicide bombers say Allah akbar before they blow themselves up. The 9-11 hijackers did the same, and so did the murderers of Nick Berg.

Those are facts. Faced with the unpleasant choice between attacking the killers in their midst and attacking those who point out that there are killers in their midst, most Muslims, the vast majority, gleefully opt for the latter.

Bottom line: because of the killers, you can't just come in my neighborhood and say Allah akbar with no consequences. You have some housecleaning to do.

Not too sure about you, Gordon, but the God I know is not the same as Allah.

#128 Gordon

As for pagan symbologies, when did the Christmas tree become a Christian symbol? It's origins are also pagan in nature. And the convenient fact that Christ's birthday was arbitrarily set at the same time as the Roman Saturnalia festivals indicates Christian co-opting of Pagan customs. Why don't you and your source make sneering comments about Christianity based upon these facts?

I beg to differ. While the dates you've listed may have pagan roots...the Church felt that some sanity should be brought into such a pagan "party" as to help neutralize the evil influences of the peoples. There is NO paganism involved in the Church's intent.

But we all worship the same God. Your source's arguments are, ultimately, rebuttable.

You are wrong. I'm not even going to go into the numerous reasons why you are wrong because you have heard them all and refuse to see truth. I think you just like to argue. You have some nerve referring to yourself as a Christian.

Matthew 7:23 (NIV)

"Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

#151 Gordon - You lost me. How is getting upset over the stifling of an opposing viewpoint religious bigotry?

147 rw

Re: Hamtramck's prayer times
No wonder they're all crazy; they're chronically sleep deprived.

14 Ranger's Dad

Whoo-hoo!

#20 Tman

"Congress can make no law respecting religion" (although apparently the Supreme Court can *rule* on nonexistent law that DIS respects a *particular* religion--and get away with it, so far). So State and local governments control church/synagogue/mosque-related policies, in theory.

Tell her what you think...

Karen Majewski, President

313-876-7700 x 364

kmajewski@hamtramckcity.com

[Link: hamtramck.us...]

Church bells have a long history of announcing the times that people did everything. Medieval history is filled with bell announcements.

They did not call everyone to prayer except on whatever days and there was no explicit message that non-Christians were to be subjegated or the faithful hunted down for not responding. It did work out that way a great deal for a long time, but the bells didn't signify or announce it. Furthermore, history is to be studied not used as an excuse to relive the bad parts.

If we need to gig the bells to gig the call to prayer, it's a small price to pay for me.

#144 quark

The big fella was a figure of speech, try and label me ignorant or a fool and I will call you big fella.

"You're taking this to an extreme, unless you have a church outside of your bedroom window. "

BINGO! Wakes me up every Sunday at 10:00. Bugs the crap out of me, but it only lasts long enough to wake me up, and then I go back to sleep. No big whoop.

"If we're going to do away with any religious sounds/noise, let's do away with street noises, bicycle bells, dogs barking, you snoring, birds singing, planes overhead noise, lawnmower noise, vehicle horn noise. Let's make it soundproof outside so you can sleep with no interruptions. "

Well that was logical. The reason for a NOISE ORDINANCE would seem pretty self explanatory, I guess not. I will explain- if noise reaches over a certain decibel level and that noise is produced through voluntary means, ie a bell, a radio, yes-even a lawnmower, the publis has a right to demand that the noise is not above the accepted decibel range. For this discussion, both the Muslim call to prayer and the Church bells would most likely go above this level.

"If we don't voluntarily quit, they'll take care of it for us by slicing off our heads just like Pearle and Berg."

I believe that Islam is dangerous, and also desires to see the whole world become Muslim. I don't see them succeeding in my neck of the woods. And every person they behead puts them farther away from their goal. Christianity tried that already and they failed. I have every reason to believe that Islam will too.

"I'll say this again, this country was and is based on Judeo/Christian premises. In.G-d.We.Trust. "

And those premises were based on what exactly? Morals and laws that have been around before even your sacred "Judeo-Christian" ethics? Where do you think THEY got them from? Do you think Christians have a monopoly on law and morality?

You can trust in God all you want. I trust in the constitution.

But what is lost of the fair number of religion-hating Objectivist LGF readers is that the First Amendment doesn't give the government the power to impose restrictions on religious organizations that aren't imposed equally on secular organizations. As much as you Randies dislike religion, you can't selectively ban religious noise while allowing secular noise.

Rand said that you can't force a mind. This means that a proper objectivist is NOT running around attempting to use state power to suppress religion.

#145 Gordon

in #65 you actually sounded rational (if probably wrong). In this post you sound like a raving moonbat. You've apparently bought into another one of Charles more ridiculous theories; that Islam is devoted to human sacrifice typical of the old Canaanites, Phoenicians, and Carthaginians. Allah=Molech is an absurd, hateful, stupid thing to expound. It's as bad in its own way as were certain lies told about another religion and its proponents during the earlier part of the last century. You should be ashamed of yourself.

LOL Gordon - what DO the barbarians shout when they've just killed for their god, in the name of their religion???

Of course they're followers of satan... read about it in the Bible!

They're also idolators, if you think of how they worship the Kaabah...

I'm sorry Gordon, but you're argument doesn't hold... the God of the Bible, the Judeo-Christian God doesn't demand human sacrifice and abhors idolatry... read the 10 commandments for some helpful hints...

Ringo (#121):

I agree with you. Unfortunately, when I posted my comment, the system lost over 1/2 my message and I didn't feel like retyping/correcting it.

The point I was making was that I see church bells and the adhan as VERY different. Church bells are a call to come worship. Blaring the adhan through the town is more than a call. It's imposing a prayer on those who do not necessarily want to hear it. While it's nominally called "a call to prayer," it is in fact a prayer.

However, to your point, I agree, I see no difference between blasting "Allah is great" and "there is no deity but Allah" and the local Church of Satan blasting "Hail Lucifer" and "Satan is king" five times a day.

In the same way as I don't see a difference between blasting "Allah is great" and "there is no deity but Allah" and blasting The Lord's Prayer or Hail Mary. Botj go beyond a "call to prayer" - they become the prayer.

To be clear: I am against the ordinance allowing the adhan to be broadcast. I am for the continued allowance of church bells...or mosque bells.

@151

Them's some mighty big boulders you are casting through that glass house you live in.

Having religious freedom is one thing. The old argument is the intent of building mosques/fortresses so they can use them the SAME way they use them all over the world. That's a fact. They use mosques EVERYWHERE in the world for terrorism. Why do you assume it's any different here?
We've already been attacked. How many more need to die to wake you up GORDON>

fiery celt's #112 just made my blood flow in the opposite direction. Why should people be ejected from a meeting? Where are the people that scream about free speech?

If it ends up getting permitted every religion, cult and political and study group in town should broadcast an itinerary at the same volume at the same times every day. It's only fair. Might be fun. The whole town should be like Speakers' Corner in Hyde Park, like an amplified Life of Brian scene. On the other hand you can't move in Speakers' Corner any more for evangelicals. It might be nice to see some Jews taking there message along in future like everyone else does, even if it's not a call to convert, just for balance.

Perhaps the 10 commandments for Michigan five times a day or the US Constitution or a public debate on the merits of religion. It might boost tourism.

#101 Model4 . . .

Sorry, forgot that Gordon's a liberal. No standards of logic or conduct shall ever trump his immediate emotional needs. And his right to inflict them on others.

I always read Gordon's posts to see if he does have another point of view worth exploring. But I think you got his number. If he's in a good mood, then he can argue in a reasonable tone. But if he's in a bad mood, then everyone is a bigot who doesn't agree with his "feelings" at that moment.

P.S. I love scare quotes. They save lots of space and typing time.

#24 Seahawk 5/27/2004 10:02AM PST
"what does [hurry to the success mean]?"

Alleged to be farming-related. (As is the idea that a man may "till" his wife as he wishes, but only in the correct part of her plumbing.)

Obviously, a farmer acts on his field, conquering it with his plow and seeding it with the desired crop. So this must represent an "inner struggle," right? (Guess not.)

In the same vein, a battlefield may also be "sown with casualties." And then the victor reaps the spoil of ransom fees, slaves, and worldly goods. Pretty good haul for a day's labor, as farming goes.

Must be an inner struggle. (Guess not.)

Surely Mo' (pbuhv) knew a "good" thing when he saw it, and Big Al is an instigator of cycles of human misery, and Big Al knows his time is short.

#164 Tman

No offense, but I'm starting to worry about you a little. I lived a half a block from train tracks for a couple of years and the trains used to sound like they were coming through my duplex. But after a few weeks I got so used to the sound that I could sleep through it.

You sure its the bells that are bugging you, and not the Holy Spirit???

Just askin'. Again, no offense intended.

#31 Karly 5/27/2004 10:04AM PST
imagine all the mosques in every city wailing at the same time...

Might actually be educational--pointing out how many, where, how quickly increasing...

Or, put another way...

Church bells were CLOCKS! Church bells were used to make unexpected announcements. They were somewhat like the early Internet.

The call to prayer is NOT like church bells. I like church bells when I'm overseas and I actually hear them. A few dings, big freaking deal.

Now I know enough about the call to prayer to know what they are saying, and I have a perfect right as an American to think that they are telling me I must be a Muslim. That's not an unreasonable interpretation based on the study of Islam and its intolerance for other religions.

Just because some touchy-feely idiots fall for the dahwa, dhimmitude, lies, whatever -- I'm not required to.

151 Gordon

I can tell you that religious bigotry is no basis for making a land use decision over whether any variety of religious institution can locate within a community. For you to support such obnoxious behavior shows your true intolerance and anti-Americanism.

Do you honestly think that if Islamists over-ran America they'd be tolerant and gave people their rights... they're also making their Caliphate with demographics (they breed much faster than any other goup of people) and using our laws against us... and they'd like the US and the rest of the world to become as oppressed as the majority of Islamist regimes...

@164 Tman

No I don't have to try and label you anything. You want to call me big fella, have at it. And I also wont have to be held responsible for you when you step before the Throne of G-d for Judgement either. But I can weep briefly for your soul. I can do that.

If the church is waking you up, sue them.

#173 Ranger's Dad

You sure its the bells that are bugging you, and not the Holy Spirit???

Go YOU!

#155

...i dunno. those iraqis are some hairy bastards

#169 Zulubaby: I can tell you that in any self-respecting zoning hearing involving any kind of religious institution, a person who brings up issues related to their dislike of the religion being proposed to be practiced in the facility are bringing issues completely and rightfully irrelevant to the zoning hearing.

I've seen it in other circumstances involving LDS Stake Houses and Jehovah's Witnesses Kingdom Halls, and I can tell you that it is a sickening display when it occurs. If I or any half-way professional person were running a zoning hearing and some nitwit like Fiery Celt got up and said "Deny the permit because Islam is evil" I would throw them out of the hearing too.

#169 zulubaby

Why should people be ejected from a meeting? Where are the people that scream about free speech?

Islam doesn't allow free speech... and CAIR (along with the liberals) are forcing Americans to keep quiet and not criticise anything to do with Islam!

#176 Nanette: We don't live in Iran. We don't need to adopt their tactics toward religions we don't care for.

And knock off the "yellow peril" rhetoric. It's stale.

Just for the record, every Episcopal Church I attended had Communion services at 7:00 am and Evening Prayer at 5:00 pm on Sunday but did not ring the bell. The bell was rung for 11:00 am Morning Prayer and weddings. I don't know if this is because of some rule, but suspect it was just out of decency.

Gordo's theme song: "I've got those old Yellow-Stain Blues."

#182, #176

Nanette... that's French, isn't it.

#40 Gordon 5/27/2004 10:08AM PST

1. The Hamtramck City Council is not "feckless," Charles. Perhaps they should be considered courageous

Or maybe they are cunning enough to give everyone a big taste, so the community votes with open eyes (and cotton in ears).

2. Saying "there is no God but Allah," does not translate into an "explicit statement of superiority" except in the fevered minds of bigots like you.

You are *right*, Gordon: this fevered, bigoted Islogical statement is really "exclusivist" rather than merely superior. Thank you for pointing that out--it makes the Islogical position even worse! Judeo-Christian ideas of "the best" or
"only" way are not expressed with automatic weapons fire.

And don't type, "crusade"--that was defensive reaction to the uprovoked takeover of *unrelated* territory by hostile muslim Turkish aggression. Mo' (pbuhv) was never anywhere near 'Eretz Yisroel (the Land of Israel).

Uh, folks, a polite request...

Please don't evangelize on LGF. I am just as passionate about my religion (Judaism) as you are about yours. I'm interested to hear about your religous practices, and happy to share mine, but I don't want to have to read numerous posts calling me* to convert. (Although I readily admit that "convert or burn in hell for eternity" is far preferable to "convert or die." I'd be very happy if Islam progressed to that point.)

*OK, they weren't directed at me personally, but the principle still applies.

Gordo is just too thick to understand the import of the CAIR bunch evasion of where the funding comes from. If this Mosque/JihadCenter/AK-47Storage site is getting funded by a hostile foreign power, then it is everyone's business.

#128 Gordon
I also have no doubt that radical Muslim interpretations of the will of God reflect the fact that they have succumbed to evil and the wiles of God's great enemy below.

So, you believe that the Spiritual Being who whispered in Muhammed's (pbuhv) ear came from YHVH? That YHVH would abandon His COVENANT with the Jews?

I don't think so.

I worship God the Father and God the Son and God the Spirit, three in One. Muhammed (pbuhv) explicitly said Jesus is not a part of the Godhead.

Christians and Jews CAN be worshiping the same diety, because it is possible that YHVH is "God the Father."

Christians and Jews CANNOT be worshiping the same deity as Moslems because "Allah" (pbuh-many-v) CANNOT POSSIBLY be the same diety as YHVH and/or "God the Father."

You might as well be claiming it's a religion of peace.

#99 Tman

I think that that goes along with what I'm saying. "prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government."-means the government shouldn't allow Churches to violate noise ordinances just because they are churches. Or Mosques, or Daddys spoiled brat blasting 50 cent in dads beemer.

Notice what "patronage" means. In the context of the day in which this was written, "patronage" was a term describing the extension of privileges or benefits in exchange for services, such as when an aristocrat would support and maintain an artist or a musician in exchange for that artisan's more or less exclusive services. The quote above means that a state church (*national* ecclesiastical...) cannot be "patronised" by the national government, i.e. cannot be maintained or supported by the government. Presumably, this would be ESPECIALLY in a way which would prefer one religious body over another (as the seeming exclusion of a mosque from a noise ordinance would be a form of).

I completely disagree with. NO RELIGION should get "encouragement from the state" period. Just because this scholar has his opinions doesn't mean he isn't wrong. Jefferson was quite clear about preventing the State from encouraging any one specific religion.

Jefferson apparently disagreed with you, considering that he supported and signed an act of Congress during his tenure in office which provided federal monies to support missionary work among the Indians. Likewise, I haven't seen anything written by him in which he opposed the first act of the independent Congress under the new Constitution, which was to spend federal monies to purchase Bibles and distribute them among the populace...

Tman #103

The founding of the United States of America took place in 1787 with the signing of the Constitution, which is a purely secular document. In relation to religion the Constitution states:

I think the main problem in your (and many humanists') assessment of the "secularity" of the Constitution is that you apply *today's secular humanist* definition of "secular" to the document. This causes you to assume that the Founders were strictly opposed to any activity of religion and government together, even those which do not cross the boundary into being "incompatible with the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship".

Separation of church and state [sic] was certainly not understood by the founders in the way that Carl Sagan understood it.

Once again everyone:

I ask you :

WHY IS GORDON SO STUPID? Is it the water? Flouridation perhaps?

#185 Shaikh Kaffir

Yes it is...

#65 Nannette

That article you quoted from is so bigoted and hateful and evil. I hear the author is an anti-Muslim bigot, and probably reads LGF.

#53 zulubaby

Sorry, can't agree. Gordon provokes me to think harder, and therefore to get a better grasp of my views and positions.

Besides, its just so *Islogical* to evict all forms of dissent. (See any churches in Saudi turf--or even *Bibles*?)

I don't want to reflect the Islogical mindset.

For Rangers Dad and quark-

Look guys (or gals since I don't know what quark is)

I said in the beginning of this WHOLE FREAKING DEBATE-

"I'm not saying that Church bells bother me at all, but I absolutely gauruntee once the Muslims are rebuked from being allowed to violate the noise ordinances in such blatant and overt ways, they will argue that Christian churches are allowed to have calls to prayer (even though they aren't really calls, more like alarm bells) and by any standard included in the establishment clause, they would have a point."

Yes, the bells wake me up. No, they don't bother me so much that I can't fall back to sleep. I have no reason to ask that they be stopped. But my point was that the Muslims argument will be based on the fact that the bells are allowed to violate the noise ordinances.

YOU two are evangelizing in attempts to "worry about my soul".

I'm more worried about my LIFE HERE ON EARTH not interfering with anyones elses life, and hope to leave some folks a little happier than they were before they met me. Religion has nothing to with it. And when I die, I want my sister to say the same thing Pat Tillmans brother did at my funeral-

Tillman's youngest brother, Rich, wore a rumpled white T-shirt, no jacket, no tie, no collar, and immediately swore into the microphone. He hadn't written anything, he said, and with the starkest honesty, he asked mourners to hold their spiritual bromides.

"Pat isn't with God,'' he said. "He's f -- ing dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's f -- ing dead.''

You might as well be claiming it's a religion of peace.
---
It's at least as peaceful as Christianity! See Crusades and so on.

#193 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

Don't stake too much on hearsay... I have Muslim friends who are bigotted against their own religion because of the violence it advocates...

And Titus, are you widely read on ancient religions and the histories thereof?

I like the idea of fighting offensive noise with offensive noise. Start playing something really annoying (maybe "Colonel Bogie March" from "Bridge on the River Kwai") at exactly the same volume, and for exactly the same duration as the mosque's "call-to-prayer" noise. Five times a day. Fair is fair.

#187 cba

Please don't evangelize on LGF. I am just as passionate about my religion (Judaism) as you are about yours.

I don't recall seeing a call to accept Jesus as Savior on this thread. Did I miss it?

#167 Fool

We agree.
Bells are ok...and they sound nice. Amplified prayers are not ok...and they give me the creeps.

Everybody:

Lets leave the religion issue aside and address the secular issue of mosques.

As has been shown in the US, UK and elsewhere-mosques are not simply community centers or houses of worship. They are soapboxes of anti-Western hatred and intolerance of others. In Iraq (and elsewhere) they are being used to hide weapons and terrorists under the aegis of being holy. Saudi Arabia is on record as sponsoring the construction of mosques on a grand scale to promote their radical Wahabbist version of Islam.

So based on a purely secular and worldly viewpoint, it is not 'racist' or 'bigoted' to raise questions or oppose their construction. It just makes common sense.

I dont care what your religion is. You're free to worship anything at anytime in anyway. Thats what makes the US great.

But as soon as your karma runs over my dogma, then we have a problem.

#187 cba

Please don't evangelize on LGF. I am just as passionate about my religion (Judaism) as you are about yours. I'm interested to hear about your religous practices, and happy to share mine, but I don't want to have to read numerous posts calling me* to convert.

But -- "Some of my best friends are Jews!"

Well, actually, that's true...and attending their son's Bar Mitzvah (sp?) was a moving experience. The party they then threw was a moving experience, too! (Carrying mom around in a chair held high was a real hoot.) As noted in #189, I do believe Jews have a covenant with YHVH and are His special people. We worship the same God. I respect those who practice the Jewish faith. ALL Christians should!

Personally, I have tried to state my beliefs, not make any "altar calls." There have been cries of "Repent!" but those referred to specific utterances. I hope that I have not over-stepped the bounds. If I have, I'm sorry and I'd appreciate a word from someone NOT a troll...

#77 Shaikh Kaffir

My IS Department would like to speak with you regarding their need to replace my keyboard, having now sprayed it with coffee...

#202 Thousand Sons

But as soon as your karma runs over my dogma, then we have a problem.

LOL!

Damn officer, I must have bumped the D9 into gear getting my lunch box. I was affraid to jump back on, even though it was only going 3 miles per hour. Union saftey rules prohibit this..I thought the 11 foot blade would stop on the curb, who would have thought It would go althe way through the mosque and keep running. Can I get my dozer back now? Damn shame..

#104 quark2

Hm. I think tman would *love* to silence all worship of G-d. See the link for his mindset: #103 Tman

The 200-years late "authority" that he cites can't spew often enough about the "secular" nature of the founding documents. (Obviously false premise: G-d-fearing Declaration of Independence, Constitution that had to be amended to guarantee freedom of citizens to worship G-d as they wish--not to impose sanctions *against* citizens).

This one has a hollow heart, I fear--hard as diamond, and just as lifeless. He, like the ACLU, will always support Big Al (pbuhv) because he knows it is not G-d.

Gordon,

I do NOT worship YOUR God.

If you worship the "same God" as Allah, don't fling that shit in my direction.

And your specious arguments about "land use"... and "bigotry" are too flimsy to even deserve comment.

The questions asked at the meeting were, apparently, related to the FUNDING of the mosque; would you honestly argue that the citizens of that town have no right, currently, to inquire as to this matter?

But, of course, you know nothing of shame OR honesty.

#102 One of these days

That could be the problem. Maybe we should get going my friend!!

Well, if you haven't already. You got some catching up to do ;-)

gawd, I love when the summer associates get here

Hi Serious LtTw,

Show me ONE SINGLE POST where I said I want to "silence all worship of God"...

There are few things I hate as much as people putting words in my mouth.

"The 200-years late "authority" that he cites can't spew often enough about the "secular" nature of the founding documents. (Obviously false premise: G-d-fearing Declaration of Independence, Constitution that had to be amended to guarantee freedom of citizens to worship G-d as they wish--not to impose sanctions *against* citizens). "

The Dec of Independence is a document, and we don't base our laws on it. The constitution ABSOFUCKINLUTELY AS CLEAR AS DAY states that the government shall not ESTABLISH nor PROHIBIT the FREE EXCERCISE THEREOF.

"This one has a hollow heart, I fear--hard as diamond, and just as lifeless. He, like the ACLU, will always support Big Al (pbuhv) because he knows it is not G-d. "

Whatever dude. When you attempt to insult me because I don't believe in your myths you sound just as stupid as the Allahu Ahkbar fools...

#128.

Sorry. the God that Muslims worship is not the God that Christians worship. you need to check on your theology.

You can much better argue that the God of Judaism and the God of Islam are the same.

When you, as a Christian, invoke the Trinitarian God, clearly either that God is the true God, or that God is not. You cannot be Muslim or a Jew and worship Jesus as God. If Jesus is God, clearly the Christian God is not the God of the other religions.

If this is unclear, you should read the Koran, where it is spelled out how the worshippers of Jesus are idolators.

As to who is right (or none), hopefully you'll have to wait a long time to find that out.

David

For some time now I have thought that if the United States is ever brought down, it will be due to political correctness. This case presents a fine example.

Whatever else you can say about it, Islam is different from any other religion in that its founder was a soldier and it unabashedly calls for the forcible conversion of nonbelievers. If those who would alert the people to the danger are hounded into silence by the PC crowd, we will be unprepared for the battle, whether it be for hearts and minds or a shooting war.

Sooner or later we as a society are going to have to decide once again whether our way of life is worth fighting and dying for. If we decide it isn't we might as well change the Constitution and proclaim Islam as the national religion, because that's where we'll eventually end up.

#209 - RWC

You too? Ours arrive next week. I wish they'd put them all in one room and just label it "Nursery."

#200 Victoria (VA girl):
Here are some of the posts that prompted mine:

#97 Ranten.N.Raven "Jesus is the Son of God and mankind's savior."

#128 Gordon "As a Christian, I have no doubt that Muslims have strayed from the true path of enlightenment regarding our Lord. But then so have Jews, who refuse to recognize Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God." (OK, that one's a little unfair, since it is from Gordon, after all.)

#173 Ranger's Dad "You sure its the bells that are bugging you, and not the Holy Spirit???" (to which you responded, in #178, "Go YOU!").

#177 quark2™ "And I also wont have to be held responsible for you when you step before the Throne of G-d for Judgement either. But I can weep briefly for your soul."

Of course, I could just put them on my scroll-by list, but I enjoy their posts (well, not Gordon... ).

The last post I saw on this thread before I started composing this was #202 Thousand Sons, so forgive me if I missed something significant in the meanwhile.

I know no-one meant to be inappropriate and only posted out of the best motives (well, not Gordon... ). I just wanted to say that I would prefer you didn't.

Thank you.

#203 Ranten.N.Raven:
Thanks for that, I appreciate it.

#106 Nanette: in #65 you actually sounded rational (if probably wrong). In this post you sound like a raving moonbat. You've apparently bought into another one of Charles more ridiculous theories; that Islam is devoted to human sacrifice typical of the old Canaanites, Phoenicians, and Carthaginians. Allah=Molech is an absurd, hateful, stupid thing to expound. It's as bad in its own way as were certain lies told about another religion and its proponents during the earlier part of the last century. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I've never seen Charles compare Islam to the Canannites, Phoenicians or Carthaginians.

On the other hand, they do seem awfully fond of blood, whether spilling their own like the Shia who "celebrate" the death of Ali by slicing themselves, or those that so enjoy the sacrifice of the lambs they do in honor of "Ibrahim" coming this close to slaughtering Ishmael that they put it on cable TV in France for the locals to enjoy, to the numerous beheadings, suicide bombings (frequently including the use of anticoagulants like rat poison to increase, literally, the bloodshed) to flying jets into buildings, that Islam is so known and loved for.

#203 Ranten.N.Raven

"Some of my best friends are Jews!"

One of my best friends (who is Jewish) once asked me how I know so much about Israel, the ME, and Judaism in general. I said "Well, among other things, I read LGF daily." He laughed and said "Hell! That makes you an honorary Jew then!"

Way cool. We laughed and got obnoxious drunk.

#197 and #198 Nannette

I was just kidding. I wrote the article you were quoting from. I just wanted to see if I could get a rise out of Gordon ;)

196

Can you cite something within the last 500 years on par with modern Islamic terrorism done in the name of Christianity?

(Hint- the near genocide of the Native Americans was not done in the name of Christianity, it was done as a land grab, supported by a nice dose of non-religiously inspired racism)

#202 Thousand Sons

Islam isn't a religion, it's a political ideology and must be treated as such... it's politics are hostile and opposed to democracy, freedom and the west...

Any Islamofascists who don't like the way of life, tradition and culture of the country they choose to live in should get back to where they came from... and NOT force their ideals upon us...

Gordon is an idiot:

"As for pagan symbologies, when did the Christmas tree become a Christian symbol?"

It didn't. The Christmas tree, the exact date of Christ's birth etc. has no real meaning in essential Christian doctrine. Christmas trees are a tradition not a religious symbol.

#218 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

You wrote it?

Kudos to you! It's a great article and does explain a lot! :-)

ps Gordon will never answer anything that he's not already formulated or isn't on his current agenda... LOL

#214 cba

Thank you. I was worried I had offended you...which I certainly wouldn't ever want to do. (And you're right...Gordon seems to enjoy offending. Not to put words in your mouth...ha!)

Take care,
Vic

#221

no christmas trees come from or were adopted from the other main religion at that time the religion of Mithras whos birthday was celebrated on guess what date?

#182 Gordon

We don't live in Iran. We don't need to adopt their tactics toward religions we don't care for.

Since when were questions about the funding of a mosque equivalent to, say, the mass execution of Ba'hai in Iran? Why would they be so anxious to hide the source of their funding? Hmmm?

#217 Thousand Sons:

I said "Well, among other things, I read LGF daily." He laughed and said "Hell! That makes you an honorary Jew then!"

That is sooo true (well, not Gordon... ).

:-)

LtTW (#194)

I don't need a putz like Gordon to make me think. For all his screaming "racist" every other minute, he's quite the bigot himself. I'm not for quieting dissent either, but most of his posts are just rude. If someone came to my house and insulted me the way Gordon insults Charles, I'd throw him out. Anyway, each to his own ...

#213 Carolina Girl

You too? Ours arrive next week. I wish they'd put them all in one room and just label it "Nursery."

Well, you may be on to something there. But I really do love when they come. Pretty much happy hours every other day :-)

Yep guys and gals. When you get hired on, it is nothing always like this. :-)

Actually, as pagan symbols go Christmas trees are no way nearly as overtly pagan as rabbits and eggs.

Of course, rabbits and eggs have no religious significance either.

Really OT, as a rule (and I suspect this one will follow suit) tropical waves coming off the coast of Africa tend to fall apart, and won't develop until they reach the western North Atlantic until mid August, however, tropical waves as attractive as this one don't normally show up for another month. This is over water warmer than the magic 26.5C, but tropical cyclones don't develop within 5 to 7 degrees of the equator, as the Coriolis forces are to weak to initiate cyclonic turning, and to get far enough north to get that puts it in waters that are marginal temperature wise.

Still, if some remnant of this wave survives, it would reach the more climatologically favored areas for development this early in the year in about a week.

#220 Nannette

Any Islamofascists who don't like the way of life, tradition and culture of the country they choose to live in should get back to where they came from... and NOT force their ideals upon us...

Oh, I agree. My point was that even if you take the religous aspect out of the debate, you're still left with a very ugly and vicious political movement. I dont care who they worship. They can worship Barney the Dinosaur for all I care. But if you want to foist Barney on me, you're mad. You've got another thing coming! (apologies to Rob Halford.

#222 Nannette

Thanks, Nannette :)

No, Gordon won't ever "get it" unless it already fits into his Democratic Underground worldview.

Had to attend a meeting, but I'm back now.

Tman

I'm laying off of you now.

peace...

and dare I say it {Go Vols!)

"(Hint- the near genocide of the Native Americans was not done in the name of Christianity, it was done as a land grab, supported by a nice dose of non-religiously inspired racism)"

What a load of crap! Sure there were several reasons that the Indians of North and South America were nearly wiped off the face of the earth. But, to exclude any blame on Christianity is rediculus. The government of the United States decided that the best way to deal with the "Indian Proplem" was to pay the church to go in and forceably convert them to Christianity. I have more info if you want it. A good book to start is call "Education for Extinction". It is about the environment of boarding schools and the effect of them on tribal culture.

Second, as for the last 500 years challenge. Do the Spanish Conquest of the Incas ring a bell? The Inca were an incredibly wealthy and educated people of South and Central Americas, they also practiced human and animal sacrafice among other "blasphemy". The Spanish were so appalled by the flaunting of wealth and spiritual practices that they took it upon themselves to "reform" them. Millions of people were killed. You can read more about this in most modern history books.

Ranger's Dad,

Peace to you as well...And thanks for you and your sons service to our country (if I remember correctly you served as well right?)

And Go Titans!!! and vols...

#128 Gordon

I have no doubt that Muslims have strayed from the true path of enlightenment regarding our Lord. But then so have Jews, who refuse to recognize Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God.

And you want to call Charles a bigot after you say that ?!? I am not going to get into an arguement with you or anyone else here regarding religion. I have my beliefs, you have yours, others have theirs. Are you so close minded that you can't let others cherish their faith (or choice to not worship) without your snide remark "I have no doubt that Muslims have strayed from the true path..."

Face it Gordon...you are probably the biggest bigot here (including trolls) but your too much of a coward to let your mask down.

Gordon, you have not apologized to your host for your insulting, churlish remarks earlier in this thread.

I expect better behavior from one who asserts he is "a professional."

Jamie Irons

#202 Thousand Sons 5/27/2004 12:21PM PST
Everybody:

Lets leave the religion issue aside and address the secular issue of mosques.

*logic cells quivering*

#210 Tman 5/27/2004 12:35PM PST

I was talking to quark2 about *that* poster's clearly presented idea of "silencing the sound of worship" -- using soundproofing, etc. in response to your "bell" complaint. Perfectly understandable mistake to think I was referring to your posts--I won't hold it against you.

Also, hardness of heart is not an insult--it is just a condition humans are born with, which can progress in either direction. There are some spiritual issues where it is not fair to expect more of people than they are equipped to handle. I know quark2 was not trying to be mean, but it can seem that way from another mindset. (Just like you thought "hardness of heart" is an insult--I beg your pardon for not clarifying in my previous post.)

As for interpretation, no, you don't understand the 18th century concepts or language; misapplying modern interpretations does, unfortunately, lead to illogical and erroneous conclusions.

Dallas and Tarrant counties not in the watch, but Wise, Parker, and of course, Palo Pinto counties are in the watch

Daviess and Grundy county, MO under Tornado Warning

Wasn't there a country song about an auction in Grundy County.

Scary looking radar loop.

#123 Frank IBC

LMAO ! Classic :-)

#230 Thousand Sons

You're right... it's a most vicious, violent and dangerous political ideology...

#231 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

You're most welcome... :-)

The government of the United States decided that the best way to deal with the "Indian Proplem" was to pay the church to go in and forceably convert them to Christianity.

Really, I thought they sent the cavalry. Which church? Post some links.

they also practiced human and animal sacrafice among other "blasphemy".

Um, nevermind.

BTW, I assume you are a non-native English speaker. If so, I'll have to forgive the numerous mispellings as your English spelling and grammar are still far superior to my abilities to speak your native language.

On the other hand, if you are a native English speaker, may I ask what grade you are currently in?

#214 cba

Point taken. My faith is very much a part of me and my thought patterns, but it was never my intention to offend. So I beg of you, please don't take it that way.

I hold God's chosen people in high esteem, as does He.

All I ask is that you please understand that in this country (USA) there is a very deliberate, undeclared war to push Christianity out of the public square and silence it, so I tend to get defensive about it.

For obvious reasons (my son), I also tend to get defensive about people bad mouthing our military, as some may have seen from me in other threads.

#123 Frank IBC 5/27/2004 11:11AM PST

#239 Right Wing Conspirator 5/27/2004 01:12PM PST

#123 Frank IBC

LMAO ! Classic :-)

---

You are both pigs! Muslims... Jews...anyone else you hate?

I'm mixed on this. I tend to favor unadulterated free expression over freedom from being exposed to "offensive" speech. Howard Stern, Muslim prayers, Pat Robertson, Evolution in schools, Creationism in schools, Michael Moore, Janet Jackson's booby, MoveOn, their freedom of speech trumps our freedom from being offended. I detest Michael Moore, and I won't pay a dime to see his movies, nor would I say anything as cliche as "I'd die for your right to say it!", no I won't, but it leads to my second point:

Most important concept in socio-politics is the Pyhric vicotry (I forget how it's spelled). Winning a battle that actually makes you lose the war. Over-reach, political jujitsu. Let these Muslims "win" this battle, alienate more people to their cause, and create a substantive grassroots campaign that will guarantee that the Muslims will lose the cultural war in the long run. Let the Democrats, Postmoderns, Marxists, Anti-Americans foam at the mouth and make their ludicrous accusations, lay their cards on the table, heck, intentionally shove Michael Moor and Al Gore in the faces of the American people...Most Americans don't like being indoctrinated. It will backfire on the enemies of this country. It's backfiring against the mainstream media. According to this article, the youth is decidely more conservative than the baby boomer generation--probably because Gen-X/Y had leftist BS shoved down their throats by the media, schools, and colleges. People rebel against dogmatism. Let the bad guys be dogmatic. You want to create a generation that hates Islam, play Muslim prayers over loudspeakers. Look at Iran.

Then it's the responsibility of the good guys to have a cogent, reasoned, libertarian oriented response to the rabid lefties and Muslims. That's the hard part, given the ineptitude of conservatives/non-leftists as a whole to communicate anything, yet alone prove the world is round. But it's possible.

#238 Ed Moran

Daviess and Grundy county, MO under Tornado Warning

That IS scary...I used to like in Daviess county, MO. My aunt and uncle live in Harrison county, right to the north.

Jamie Irons, if Gordon ever wanted to kill me, all he'd have to do is apologize -- I'd die of shock.

#235 Right Wing Conspirator

I have no doubt that Muslims have strayed from the true path of enlightenment regarding our Lord. But then so have Jews, who refuse to recognize Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God.

Of course Gordon's a bigot, he just projects his biases onto everyone else...

He'd still fail to recognise that there's no mention of Jesus in the Old Testament... and that there's only one God... not a trinity...

There are sadly a lot of ignorant people like him out there, so it's best ignore the religious slurs...

#234 Tman

Nope, I didn't serve. My grandfather was wounded in the war in the Pacific. One of my brothers is still with the 82nd Airborne, and my son is a Ranger assigned to the 101st, maybe soon to be a green beret.

I was too stupid when I was young to be of much use to my country. My service consisted of raising a great young man!

#123 Frank IBC 5/27/2004 11:11AM PST

#239 Right Wing Conspirator 5/27/2004 01:12PM PST

#123 Frank IBC

LMAO ! Classic :-)

---

You are both pigs! Muslims... Jews...anyone else you hate?

Reading comprehension wasn't your strong suit back in Special Ed, huh?

#248 Nannette

Check it out

#243 Ranger's Dad

I hold God's chosen people in high esteem, as does He.

I have strong feelings about this and that we're (the Jews) are not the chosen people... I feel that those who are chosen are the true believers in God... not the God as written in books, but the God who's etched on all our hearts.

They say many are called but few are chosen --- it's very true.

If we can keep the 10 commandments throughout our lives, just as a code of living, then we're doing okay...

Let me go way out on a limb...

I don't think American courts will view some church bells the same way they view a five time a day "call to prayer." Courts may view historical evidence and take witnesses. They are permitted to bring in experts. There is the discovery process which will apply to anyone who avails themself of the legal option. That is bound to favor any secularist with some guts.

If I were one of the Muslims in Michigan, I personally would not want the call to prayer broadcast five times a day over loudspeakers, just to be a good neighbor in the spirit of previous immigration patterns. How about an AM station? Theme parks and construction sites have them. Join the 21st Century, you maroons.

There is the backlash principle which they seem to think may be papered over with lies and slick Western spokespersons, who really aren't that slick once you've heard them a few times.

#252 Nannette

If we can keep the 10 commandments throughout
our lives, just as a code of living, then we're doing okay...

Ain't nobody alive who can keep the Ten Commandments, though...

...Muhammad (piss be upon him)

#242 Ed Moran:Abu Must hafa Camel Mustafa 5/27/2004 01:16PM PST

[Link: www.kansaspress.ku.edu...]
[Link: www.edu-books.com...]
[Link: www.edu-books.com...]

Here is a few books to read on the subject of forced assimilation of Indians by the federal government.

[Link: www.mnsu.edu...]

Here is one link to the Inca information. It only mentions the first "battle" between the two. I'm sure you will find more info if you are really interested.

#251 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

Thank you for that - it's very interesting... but you know, strangely enough, kaballah deals with the difference facets of God...

Hey kids, this is the land of the immigrant, the great melting pot.

We need to assimilate these folks into the great american tapestry. Along with thier Chanting at all hours they can contribute Female genital mutilation and they can learn the word compromise ...I had a good thought there for a minute.

/off

Love the sinner hate the sin but if a town rejects you kick the dust off your sandles and nuke em.

GWG

#254 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

Ain't nobody alive who can keep the Ten Commandments, though...

Of course there is... if I wouldn't have argued with my parents when they were alive I'd have kept all 10 of them...

#243 Ranger's Dad:

it was never my intention to offend.

Oh, I understand that, and it wasn't your comment alone (or even mostly), it was the accumulation of comments and the signs that there would be many more. I know it was meant well (well, not... you-know-who!)--I just felt I had to let those involved know the effect it was having on me.

Hugs,
cba

Isn't interesting how people who dislike LGF and Charles, can't seem to keep away? I ate at "Wendy's" once, but I did not like square hamburgers and so I never went back.

jmoho

TQC and Nannette:
Please, please, pretty please... if you want to continue this discussion, please take it off line. These discussions ALWAY deteriorate...

#250 Ed Moran:Abu Must hafa Camel Mustafa 5/27/2004 01:22PM PST

#123 Frank IBC 5/27/2004 11:11AM PST

#239 Right Wing Conspirator 5/27/2004 01:12PM PST

#123 Frank IBC

LMAO ! Classic :-)

---

You are both pigs! Muslims... Jews...anyone else you hate?

---

Reading comprehension wasn't your strong suit back in Special Ed, huh?

---

What part didn't I comprehend? The sarcastic comment about muslims devotion to their faith, the insinuation that their faith wasn't real, or the sophmoric shot at the jews and finances?

I get that it was a joke. It is also a display of contempt and ignorance.

#244 Isle of Veal

Bullshit. Faux troll. Who are ye ?

More evidence of the decline and fall of Western Civilization. We are too afraid of the savages, and allow them to overtake our society. My ancestors would be ashamed that we have allowed these savages to ruin what was the greatest civilization ever, without us ever firing a shot...

Oh, that's why he thought it was a shot at Jews... I thought "successful" in the general "lives a good life" sense--I didn't think "Jews are good with money" at all.

Gosh, I'm such a bigot.

#20, 22, 25, 27, and all the rest having something to say about church bell ringing.

As a former catholic alterboy, who got up each morning to ring the loud church bells at six o'clock for the early daily mass, which was heard around the city, I can tell you first that it is a call to mass, that no particular tune was given off, and that these same ringings occurred several times on Sunday, and on certain weekdays when a late service was scheduled in the evening. So this boloney that they are not equivalent to Islamic calls to prayer are naive. This I hope is the end of the bells controversy, and while some people might be acclimated to the bells, and even think they are pleasant, the corresponding aversion for the Islamic calls to prayer is just another example of Islamophobia which prevades this site. Arab-Americans who might also be Islamic are Americans just the same, whether the bigots of Little Green Footballs like it or not.

# 264 Right Wing Conspirator 5/27/2004 01:46PM PST

#244 Isle of Veal

Bullshit. Faux troll. Who are ye ?
---

No faux. I hail from CO. I'm a CPA. I am a reformed conservative. I have no party affiliation. A father of two.

#263 Isle of Veal

I hate doing this because I think your fake. If your real, your a fuc*ing loon.

What part didn't I comprehend? The sarcastic comment about muslims devotion to their faith, the insinuation that their faith wasn't real, or the sophmoric shot at the jews and finances?

The correlation between the Jewish people and finances never came to my mind whatsoever. But thanks for bringing your stereotypes out so everyone can see. What I was thinking of was Israel. Look at what that nation has done and has become in their short time. Compare that to what the surrounding muslim cultures have done.

Or maybe you measure success differently. Hmmm, one hand a civilized culture that vastly contributes to the improvement of mankind...or the other. Which has contributed zero (and no, not the numeral, but nada, zilch, nothing. Actually, for all the hatred that they possess, it should actually be considered that their cumulative contribution to society is a negative.

More on why Allah cannot possibly be YHVH:

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 52

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

YHVH is the diety of the Jews. They are His special people. Allah is the enemy of the Jews. They are his special target.

How can it not be obvious that they are not the same diety?

#263 Isle of Veal

You been taking too many PC pills.

While I agree that the US Government did try to force assimilation of native peoples, nothing you have said so far proves that they were forced to convert to Christianity.

I might point out that the attempts at assimilation were miserable failures due to the ideological and cultural differences involved.

It *was* a land grab, and evil men did use missionaries in both official and unofficial ways.

#269 RWC

GMTA (see my #266).

256

These books deal with attempts to educate the Indians from the end of the 19th century onward, after the near genocide was over.

But since you are such an idiot, I'll remind you my original question and hint said the near genocide against the Indians was not done in the name of Christianity. May be a little subtle for an Al Franken fan to follow, but the motivation for the Indian wars was for land. The fact that some religious folks showed up after the fighting was over and try to mission to the Indians doesn't change that fact.

Ignoring the fact that the Inca conquests are over 400 years ago, I think the riches of the Incas had as least as much to do with the Spanish desire for conquest as the spread of Christianity.