LGF

Don't Look Away

Sun, May 30, 2004 at 11:17:48 am PDT

This is the enemy. Don’t look away. (Hat tip: selpaw.)

Nick Berg, an American from Philadelphia, was kidnapped and tortuously beheaded by Arabs in Iraq sometime in May. The murderers filmed the deed and proudly displayed the victim’s severed head.

After killing six Israeli soldiers in an attack on an armored vehicle in Gaza on May 11, the Arabs near the scene of the carnage gleefully held aloft human body parts in front of rolling cameras. One of the Arab terrorists was later interviewed on film with what appeared to be a human head in front of him.

The week before, after shooting at Tali Hatuel’s car, causing it to skid and stop, Arab terrorists walked over to the vehicle to finish the occupants off. They looked at the heavily pregnant mother and her four no-doubt frightened girls; the youngest was two years old. And then shot them all. At point-blank range. With sadistic satisfaction, they systematically murdered Tali Hatuel and her unborn son, as well as all of Tali’s daughters - Hila, age 11, Hadar, 9, Roni, 7, and two-year-old Meirav.

In Fallujah in March, crowds of townspeople dragged four American civilians out of their vehicles, shot or beat them to death, mutilated their bodies, dragged them through the streets, suspended them from a bridge and burned them.

And they danced and cheered.

With their children.

In Ramallah in 2000, two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped, beaten, stabbed countless times, had their eyes gouged out, and were literally disemboweled and dismembered by an Arab lynch mob.

The people - and I use the term loosely - who carried out the initial beatings threw one of the victims down to the waiting mob, where his face was further crushed with stones, feet, fists and even a heavy metal window frame. One Jew was set on fire and dragged along the street as Arab onlookers danced and cheered. Some of the butchers celebrated their crimes with the victims’ internal organs. One of the killers, famously captured on film, proudly displayed his blood-soaked hands to the cheering Ramallah crowd.

And it gets worse. In 2003, nearly two years later, Arab parents in Gaza cheered again when their little children dressed up as members of the Ramallah lynch mob, complete with hands painted blood red, for a kindergarten graduation ceremony.

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190 comments

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1 The Kaballah of Ramallah...  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:22:21am

Ramallah

Ram Allah

2 hood  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:23:33am

yee hah first

3 Usuri  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:26:31am

Religion of peace? Freedom fighters... not terrorists?

This "Cult of Death" must be treated in the same way that the Brittish Empire treated the Thuggi cult in India... when's the last time you have heard of attrocities commited by a Thuggi ?

4 Geepers  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:27:14am

Cultural differences.

5 Kat  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:27:33am

Sick blood cult--like a bunch of rabid dogs to a kill. And these assholes demand a terrorist state.

6 libsquasher  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:28:49am
In Fallujah in March, crowds of townspeople dragged four American civilians out of their vehicles, shot or beat them to death, mutilated their bodies, dragged them through the streets, suspended them from a bridge and burned them.

They failed to mention that the contractors were BURNED TO DEATH after an Iraqi boy left the scene and returned with a gas can...

7 Pax Americana  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:30:21am

And LGF'ers are hate-filled bigots because we call these people savages...Riiight.

8 [Engineer]  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:34:31am

This is one hell of an article. I have read about each of those horrible events, but to see them all together, got to me. When are we (the US and Israel) going to stop this evil? We have the ability, we just don’t seem to have the will. I never thought I would say this, but these people are as bad as the Nazis and the Communists.

9 Gustavia in Texas  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:38:30am

And the Palis shot at the people attending the funeral of the woman and her daughters.

10 twisterella  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:38:43am

I can only bear to look because of Charles and LGF.
I remember the picture of the muslim youth holding out his bloodsoaked hands-- in the Economist-- I think the caption said "nearly sexual rapture".

See Rayra, Q? Just like the Reivers...

Men who have forgotten how to be men
11 Rayra[deleted]  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:39:06am
12 cba  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:39:07am
I have read about each of those horrible events, but to see them all together, got to me.

I know what you mean. I've just started to read Dershowitz's Why Terrorism Works and seeing the hijackings in the 70s listed one after the other after the otherwas mind-boggling (and it wasn't an exhaustive list).

I also had no idea that the hijacking of the Lufthansa plane following the Munich massacre that resulted in Germany releasing the terrorists who'd been captured alive was a put-up job. To say I'm disgusted is an understatement.

13 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:39:28am

#7 Pax Americana

You need the New PC Dictionary:

telling the truth = being a bigot
American Patriot = fascist
terrorist = gunman or militant
America hater = patriot (of the future World Soviet Union, now still UN)
Jews hater = progressive
antisemite = progressive
Friend of Israel = nazi
nazi = ancient form of Zionism, well masked
Zionism = Nazism
muslim = oppressed and prosecuted
christian = oppressor and prosecutor and crusader and imperialist
caliphate = democracy
imperialism = American Constitution
beheading = reacting to being mocked

You better get ready, your children's SAT will be a challenge...

14 DarthMaulrulesok  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:41:08am

The examples in the article are all part of the Arab Way of War, which is basically low-intensity total war, waged without restraint of any kind, with broad popular support. The goal is strategic victory by paralyzing the will of non-muslims to resist. The Arab Way of War counts on Western ideas of morality and restraint, (hence fighting from mosques and human shields) while using the Western value of human life against us.

To defeat this, we need a total commitment to victory and a willingness to do whatever it takes to win, as we did in WWII. We still have the ability to win, we must generate the will to become more than a match for our enemies, not only in strength and determination but more importantly in ruthlessness as well.

15 rebTEX  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:42:22am

These animals don't deserve mercy!
They don't understand mercy!
We should take a hint and STOP THE SENSELESS MERCY!!
It cost us the lives of our BRAVE PERSONEL.
If we MUST fight them on their terms...then so be it!
NO MERCY
NO REST
NO QUARTER
STOP THE SENSELESS ACTS OF MERCY!

16 Eric  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:43:05am

#13

terrorist = gunman or militant - You got that wrong ... that should read: Terrorist = Heroic Freedom Fighter against the Oppressive Christian Capitalist.

17 Usuri  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:43:14am

#13 ...

Well said :)

18 ORD neighbor  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:44:01am

I think the last lines of the article (not shown here) are the most important.
Mercy towards certain individuals should not come from human hands (if from anywhere at all).

19 Rayra[deleted]  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:44:40am
20 Amos (Zionist Minion)  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:46:45am

I blame the media. No, not for the atrocities. For making it next to impossible to stop them, by both almost ignoring them and making every step a government takes in that direction seem like a disaster and an atrocity itself.

Just read Why We Hate the Media by James Fallows. It's obvious Jenings' backtracking was because while he was willing to risk his story and his life in an imaginary scenario, he wasn't willing to risk his colleagues' ire in the real world by being known as one who was willing to save the lives of American soldiers. I know worms who are his moral superiors.

21 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:46:52am

Folks, please email that article to everyone.

All our LLL friends. Cram it down their throats. Don't even add a comment.

That's what I'm going to do. I'm past worrying about whether I tick them off or not.

Heading to NJ to have a Memorial Day barbecue with some old friends, who are otherwise real nice people, but batshit on this subject (esp. Jimmy and Sheilagh). The last time I was there, Jimmy was raving about the war being started for Halliburton.

Yeah, roit.

And this guy is a CFO (well, for nonprofits he is!).

Michelle was saying that Bush was evil, but I did clothesline her by interjecting mildly that I didn't think he was exactly the spawn of Satan. She grumblingly admitted that he wasn't--BUT!

The gist of their objections to the Iraq war seems to be that it was like kicking a hornet's nest, and they hate Bush anyway, so "let's git 'im!" Not real rational or coherent. Refusing to admit that it's actually gone real well, as these things go (always messy and violent, no exceptions, but it'll work out fine if we stick to our guns); or that we've done a good deed for the world by getting rid of Hussein.

Mel, the Vietnam vet, is just furious that we're in ANY war. He never wants to see us fight for anything again, ever. I'm afraid he'd just as soon see us taken by a hostile power as fight.

Eileen is more openminded, as a soldier's daughter, she's proud of the military and her dad. And was willing to wait and see about Iraq. But I think her mind has been swayed by the constant bleats of defeat we're all surrounded by. It's hard to keep your head above the waves up here.

Wish me luck, folks. Actually, I may try to avoid the subject altogether! sheesh.

22 nvdoyle  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:49:22am

#8 [Engineer]

I never thought I would say this, but these people are as bad as the Nazis and the Communists.

Worse.

At least on some level, the Nazis and Russian Communists were 'rational actors'. These folks...aren't.

23 Spiny Norman  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:50:49am

#14 DarthMaulrulesok

To defeat this, we need a total commitment to victory and a willingness to do whatever it takes to win, as we did in WWII

I've reluctantly come to the realization that that will only happen once the Islamofascist freaks use a WMD in a major US city -- an event that will make September 11 seem like "practice". As long as enough people in the US government take this threat seriously, the allahbots' wet dream won't happen. So, it appears the WOT will drag on far longer than is necessary, making Pres. Bush's "10 year" estimate seems rather naive, if you ask me.

24 Darleen  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:52:57am

at the end of the article:

There is a Talmudic dictum that states, "One who is merciful to the cruel, will ultimately cause cruelty to the merciful."
It seems to me that we, Israelis and Americans, have proven the Talmudic sages absolutely correct. Please, no more mercy.


Rinse. repeat as needed.

Any idiot who even tries to defend Islamism, or attempts the "they don't have high tech weapons, so what are they supposed to use" line of "Pal" support must, must be summarily confronted, and loudly so bystanders hear, with their own complicity with pure evil.

25 Judith  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:52:57am

As a child I never understood niceties of war. If you're going to have a war, then all out war is the only way. Trying to civilize war with rules and regulations and conventions is stupid because it diminshes the horror of war and reduces the desire to make peace. So in that sense I can agree with the "total war" concept of the Arabs.

That being said, they love to dish it out, but they sure can't take it. They butcher innnocent people, use ambulances for transporthing terrorists, pass off propaganda as journalism, in short they use every single one of the civilized war makers rules we have against us but whine about anything and everything we do.

So let's make war their way. It will be brutal, horrific, many people will die, but it will be over soon and most of the ones who die won't be our side.

26 Judith  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:54:01am

LLL-But it is only because we oppress them tht they do that. If we were nicer, they wouldn't.

27 Amos (Zionist Minion)  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:54:21am

#19,

"Intellectuals" will tell you you are de-humanizing your enemies. However, when one is raised into a cult of blood and death and taught to revere brutal killers, chances are one will grow up to be an orc/killer zombie/Hamas terrorist. Such a person is not a 100 percent human, regardless of the packaging. Maybe he's as human as Jeffrey Dhamer, or Ted Bundy - and there are too many of them, too well armed, to ever be jailed.

28 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:54:40am

OT: Anyone else see that loathesome, judgemental, driveling PC hash of our history known as Colonial House?

I finally hollered at the tv and turned it off when they were droning about colonial mapmaking as "wiping out the names of the Indigenous Peoples that had existed for thousands of years..."

/Evil Whitey, signing off to go eat some barbecued pork!

29 Jclenman  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:55:47am

This may sound naive, but something tells me that Bush may pull the trigger on these guys once the fall election is over. If he wins, he'll have nothing to lose, and certainly everything to gain by ridding the world of the cult of death.

30 Richard  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:55:56am

They are not human. They are not even animals. They are some alien life form whose sole purpose is to murder, maim and mutilate.

31 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:02:54am

#23 Spiny Norman

And if you ask me we are in this horror for three generations, if we go on in this way.
And I am not using any hyperbole.
And maybe :

#25 Judith

And we don't even know if we will survive, as a civilization, with an all-out war. It could be too late, the invaders are everywhere and they're cunning and bloodthirsty.


I think that we should all pray a lot for help, the world is sinking into a growing darkness.

32 Jclenman  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:03:51am

#23 Spiny Norman

"I've reluctantly come to the realization that that will only happen once the Islamofascist freaks use a WMD in a major US city -- an event that will make September 11 seem like "practice"."

I'd like to think so. But can't you here Teddy K saying "we deserved this. We asked for this. It's all our fault for not trying to understand them better and instead acting arrogantly by trying to force our ways on them"

I'm afraid there are too many Robert Fisks around to get angry about any kind of attack. Hopefully, the people in charge of the USA - should an attack with WMDs ever take place, hopefully not - will know what to do.

33 Powderfinger  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:05:36am

But, but, but...THE PANTIES! THE MASTURBATION! NAKED TWISTER! THE WIRES! THE GLOWSTICKS! HAVING TO WATCH TRAILER TRASH GET LAID!

RACISTS!

/Grrr...

34 realwest  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:05:51am

#10 twisterella "Men who have forgotten how to be men".
Nope; they never knew what it is to be a man. Our cultural differences are that far apart. They actively try to kill (and as horribly as possible) women and children. They are not ashamed to use children as shields. They are not men, never have been and never will be.

35 Stinky  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:09:27am

Oh so what, so they disembowel soldiers in the streets and teach their children to celebrate dismemberment, that's NOTHING compared to forcing fedayeen Saddam who throw people off of buildings to wear panties on their hands and that's NOTHING compared to forcing freedom on people who used to be dangled into meat grinders. Personal responsibility, human decency, civilization, these are just imperialistic metaphorical fascist constructs used to exploit the working class. It's wrong for people to tell others what to do! So you Jew Nazis and National Socialist Capitalists had better pull out of the Middle East and just die!

36 Powderfinger  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:10:53am

#34 realwest

Hey! Where the hell ya been? We damn near sent a posse out after ya!

Good to see you, hope things are well.

37 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:12:17am
38 Powderfinger  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:14:17am

#35 stinky

It's wrong for people to tell others what to do!

Unless those others are American. In that case, it's the worLLLd's responsibiLLLity.

39 twisterella  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:18:35am

#19 Rayra: But unlike the Uruk-hai the Reivers are (or were ) men-- they just present as monsters. The jihaadiis present as monsters.

This is purely tribal behavoir-- the 'Boast' is intended to break the spirit of the enemy with horror, to weaken the enemy's resolve by demonstration of atrocity. The purpose is dual: first, intimidation of the adversary, and second, demonstration of how fierce and dominantly male the XY being is. (like a gorilla beating it's chest)
It doesn't really have the desired effect on western society, bucause we can't really get our heads around horrific behavoir-- we're a thousnd years removed from them. Muslims are NOT the same as us. Maybe they can be, I don't know, but they are not now...

40 Darleen  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:18:53am

heheheh... P.J. O'Rourke

So the world's mad at us? Maybe we should just say goodbye.
...
The benefits will be immediate. We can cut $300 billion from our defense budget. This will be almost enough to pay for the aging baby boomers' prescription drug benefits, which can now include Levitra, Botox and medicinal cannabis.
America will enjoy cleaner air and less traffic congestion as oil goes to $200 a barrel due to chaos in the Middle East. A U.S. withdrawal from the Middle East will cause chaos, of course. Then again, a U.S. intervention in the Middle East has caused chaos already. And, during those periods of history when the U.S. was neither intervening in nor withdrawing from the Middle East, there was . . . chaos. The situation is akin to the famous complaint women have against men: failure to acknowledge that not every problem can be fixed. Sometimes the best thing is just a little sympathy. America had everyone's sympathy after the World Trade towers were attacked. We can get that sympathy back if we limit our foreign policy objectives to whining.
One thing to whine about will be the fate of Israel. Without American safeguards that nation is certain to be militarily attacked. To judge by previous Israeli wars, in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 and 1982, the result will be serious headaches for Israelis as the Knesset furiously debates the status of Jewish settlements outside Damascus and on the west bank of the Euphrates.

ba-da-bing!

41 Stinky  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:22:25am

8 Engineer:

I never thought I would say this, but these people are as bad as the Nazis and the Communists.

The Nazis and Commies (Nazis moreso) were evil bodhissatvas who sprouted from the bad aspects of their respective cultures, and then reached back to help redefine and focus the hatred of the masses they ruled against their enemies.

This is Palestinian culture, however. It is natural to them. No Hitler nor Goebbels is needed to lead to these atrocities. They are only viruses, who add nothing to humankind except their bloodthirsty hatred. Where are the great Palestinian scientists? Novelists? Astronaughts? They suck across the board.

42 Les  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:22:56am

# 40

Old Joke: Go to Israel and see the Pyramids.

43 twisterella  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:25:55am

#34 Realwest (*happy to see you*)
They were men. In the Jahilyyaah, before Islam. They were no different than other tribes. But a thousand years ago, something happened. They are wildly different than us now.

44 Thom™  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:27:48am
The Nazis and Commies (Nazis moreso) were evil bodhissatvas who sprouted from the bad aspects of their respective cultures, and then reached back to help redefine and focus the hatred of the masses they ruled against their enemies.

LOL. What?

45 ORD neighbor  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:28:27am

Iron Fist:
Could you please e-mail me here.
I have an OT question but don't want to eat up LGF bandwidth.
Thanks in advance.

46 abc  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:30:23am

We're only 'monkeys and pigs' to the muslims.

They learned this at the madrassa and mosque from the cleric.

47 Ratbert  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:31:23am

It's just a microscopic minority committing these atrocities.

ululululullululululullulululullululululu!

48 Steven  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:32:28am

This is a great piece to prove that some of the followers of this wonderful religion of peace and savage governments are not only sub-human, but sub-animal. Animals do not kill merely for the unbridled pleasure. But these savages do. They are a lost cause. There is too much to do in order to rehabilitate these beings. Apologies and acceptance are not the answer. We have to marginalize their leadership, remove our dependency on them, require them to modernize or suffer not only our force to restrain their savagery, but also divest completely from their economies. No ties whatsoever.

That way, they will need use more than we need them. And then we will destroy this evil.

Islam today, and yesterday, is a horror.

72 raisins, indeed.

49 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:32:30am

#41 Stinky

Please avoid the use of Bodhisattva in such a contest.
Bodhisattva means "Being of Enlightenment" and is the supreme goal of the Buddhist (in Mahayana Buddhism).

The Bodhisattva is the Being who vows not to enter the blessed state of Liberation/ Enlightenment/Awakening (Bodhi) UNTIL ALL THE SENTIENT BEINGS WILL BE LIBERATED.

All the sentient being, not only the humans and the animals, but even the last leaf of grass.

I know you were just sarcastic, but the world is getting uglier and uglier and we must stick with the few good things we have.

Thank you.

/I know, I am boring and I will be reborn without eyebrows.

50 David2  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:33:05am

The enemy is entitled to all sorts of savagery and we are supposed to watch, do nothing, condemn ourselves or give them support. I know this because Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton and JFK told me it is so.

51 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:33:15am

Uhu

CONTEXT not contest

52 Jaffar abu Grand Vizier  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:35:39am

#49 Poitiers-Lepanto

I know, I am boring and I will be reborn without eyebrows.

You're coming back as Dick Gephardt?

53 abc  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:36:09am

OT - 'Dung Art' gets flung back in Gallery owners face.

Too bad. But somehow I have no pity for this ugly cretin. She'll survive.

54 JohninLondon  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:36:47am

The Sunday Times has obtained some info from papers being discussed by the UK's top civil servants :


...The Home Office chief presented the meeting with a paper jointly written by Home Office and Foreign Office civil servants and entitled Young Muslims and Extremism.

Written for Blair and drawing on a confidential Downing Street strategy unit “audit” of the 1.6m-strong Muslim community, it painted a devastating picture of how discontent among Muslims could be providing the seedbed of terrorism in Britain.

An audit cited by the Home Office found that 16% of working-age Muslims had never worked or were long-term unemployed — five times the level among the population as a whole.

More than half (51%) were economically inactive, 1½ times the figure for the general population. More than four out of 10 (43%) had no recognised educational qualification. Half of all Muslim women had never worked.

As one document noted: “Compared with the population as a whole, Muslims have three times the unemployment rate (nearly 15% against 5% for the population as a whole); the lowest economic activity rates (48% against 67% for the population as a whole); a higher proportion who are unqualified (43% against 36%); and a higher concentration in deprived areas (15% of Muslims live in the 10 most deprived districts, against 4.4% of the population as a whole)”.

In their paper, Home Office analysts tried to quantify the pool of terrorists in Britain. They suggested there may be between 10,000 and 15,000 British Muslims who “actively support” Al-Qaeda or related terrorist groups.

These numbers appear to draw on intelligence, opinion polls and a report that 10,000 Muslims attended a conference held by Hizb ut-Tahir, described by the Home Office as a “structured extremist organisation”, last year.

Although less than 1% of the Muslim population, the sheer size of the actual “pool” of potential Al-Qaeda recruits — those who go to meetings to express their support — represents a stark warning about the extent of the threat.

Al-Qaeda, the leaked paper noted, is now after the very young. “Extremists are known to target schools and colleges where young people may be very inquisitive but less challenging and more susceptible to extremist reasoning/arguments.

“There is evidence of the presence of extremist organisations on campuses and colleges.” The paper notes that even when an organisation is banned, its members often set up a society under another name.

“The 1924 Society, Muslim Media Forum and Muslim Cultural Society all have extremist tendencies,” the paper claims. However, there is no suggestion they are linked to terrorist activity.

The evidence of antipathy towards the West among a significant minority in the wider Muslim community is equally alarming. Opinion polls showed that while the majority of Muslims supported the government’s stance on the war on terror, a significant proportion were disaffected enough to say they backed Al-Qaeda’s terrorist campaigns.

An ICM poll published last March found that 13% of British Muslims thought that further terrorist attacks on America would be justified. Another poll found that up to 26% did not feel loyal to Britain.

Gieve summarised this MI5 evidence in his note to Turnbull. He wrote: “Muslims who are most at risk of being drawn into extremism and terrorism fall into two groups: a) well- educated with degrees or technical/professional qualifications, typically targeted by extremist recruiters and organisations circulating on campuses; b) underachievers with few or no qualifications, and often a non-terrorist criminal background — sometimes drawn to mosques where they may be targeted by extremist preachers and in other cases radicalised or converted whilst in prison.”

The enemy amongst us - en masse, and still being allowed into Britain. We must be mad !!!

55 Thom™  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:39:01am

#49 Poitiers-Lepanto

Nice post. Thanks.

So I'm googling "no eyebrows" and what do I see? The Mona Lisa has no eyebrows. It was the fashion in Renaissance Florence to shave them off!

Learn something new everyday ...

56 JohninLondon  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:39:22am

For those who can get through to the Sunday Times, the link for the post above is :

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

57 JohninLondon  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:40:56am
58 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:43:27am

#52 Jaffar

YIKES !!!

I think that to be reborn as "Dick Gephardt" you need to actually kill a Buddha.

59 Stinky  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:43:34am

well, I did preface it w/ EVIL bodhissatva, I meant no disrespect towards Buddhism, and used it the same way one uses the term Antichrist, which is in no way a negative usage of "Christ", but in fact, complementary.

My point was, take the Nazi Party out of 30s Germany, in all likelihood, no Final Solution. Anti-Semitism, yes, but 6 million Jews dead? No.

Take the PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jihad out of Palestine, and the Palestinians would still rip Israelis to shreds. The Final Solution-esque goals of the Palestinians is a grassroots campaign.

60 Darleen  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:44:21am

abc

well, well, that's interesting... the pic of the actual "art" is missing! I posted about that last night.

Ah! Looks like my link still works... here is the "art" done by Guy Colwell, "comic book artist" and LLL of the highest order (having served Fed Pen time for Vietnam era protests).

61 Jaffar abu Grand Vizier  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:44:34am

#58 Poitiers-Lepanto

LOL. Bad karma, indeed.

62 Thom™  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:46:03am

#59 Stinky

It's an oxymoron.

63 Luigi  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:46:36am

Fox: "Three of the four [Saudi] terrorists may have escaped."

Is this for real??

64 Thom™  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:47:59am

... and a dreadful one at that.

65 Dahvid  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:49:46am

What Goes 'Round Comes 'Round...

Check this link:

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

It's to story about A" San Francisco gallery owner bears a painful reminder of the nation's unresolved anguish over the incidents at the Abu Ghraib (search) prison: a black eye delivered by an unknown assailant who apparently objected to a painting that depicts U.S. soldiers torturing Iraqi prisoners."

It is the radical leftie commies who are responsible for enabling the terrorists. If we we to concentrate on them unrestrained, they would vanish real quick. It is a shame that the gallery owner got socked in the eye, but it is a relief to learn that not all my fellow citizens are antiamerican antisemites.

Case in point: I used to hang-around a place called Coffee Time out here in Portland, OR. It was really a great place to bring the guitar and make lots of friends. Well, I was bored one evening and decided to stop by my old haunt, Coffee Time. I sat out in front, when an Arabic man with military pants began ranting to a young girl about how Bush/Cheny planned 9-11 so they could go to war, how America is terrible, etc, and then the girl said sarcastically "Oh yeah, right, and tthey say they want to kill all the jewwws!" The girl was completely indoctrinated by this Arabic man.Then she began ranting how much she hates America, etc. That's when I walked away feeling scared and isolated. The militant muslims are having a field day and young impressionable minds gobble the propoganda like candy. The Arabic guy hangs around Coffee Time approaching young kids and feeding them propoganda. It's am grateful that someone had the courage to confront this situation in San Francisco at an "art" gallery.


[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

66 Luigi  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:50:09am

I think I get it now. The very next interview on Fox says this will probably push up Saidi oil prices. Yes, I get it. The hortage takers are national heros. That's why they let 3 of the 4 of them escape.

67 Belize042  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:54:49am

#63 Luigi

I can hear the announcer for those old Trident gum commercials, but the words are different:

Three out of four terrorists agree, if you kill Christians and Jews, it's best to be "arrested" by Muslims. Especially if you can make it happen in Saudi Arabia.

68 Judith  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:54:58am
This may sound naive, but something tells me that Bush may pull the trigger on these guys once the fall election is over.

From your keyboard to G-d's eyes!

Is it wrong to wish for evil things to happen to those who do evil? If so, I am doomed.

I am also sick sick sick of rain.

city of Winnipeg
10:31 AM CDT Sunday 30 May 2004

Heavy rainfall warning for city of Winnipeg continued 25 to 40 millimetres of rain has already fallen with a further 25 to 40 millimetres of rain expected today and tonight.

A low pressure system in the Dakotas continues to spread rain Across most of southern Manitoba. 25 to 40 mm of rain has Fallen over the Red River Valley and east to the Ontario border Over the past 24 hours with a further 25 to 40 mm likely today and this evening over much of the region. The rain should taper off to A few showers later tonight with a few showers persisting through Monday as this system stalls out over the region

69 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:56:54am

I would add to this topic that the dear muslims have an history of destroying art and culture:

the Buddhas of Bamyan, bombed by the talebans are just the last example but we must remember that the Sphinx was (literally) defaced by the turkish empire army that used it as a target for the training of artillery crews.

They destroy just for the fun of it.

I would say that this is a signature, it tells us with what we have to do.

70 Darleen  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:56:59am

If the gallery owner had stuck to her pastels and abstracts, she wouldn't have been caught between the parasitical anti-American "artist" Colwell and people who have had enough with the crass exploitation of Abu Ghraib.

I wish I had enough $$ to buy that painting, so I could very publically burn it.

71 Promethea  Sun, May 30, 2004 10:57:14am

#29 Jclenman . . .

This may sound naive, but something tells me that Bush may pull the trigger on these guys once the fall election is over. If he wins, he'll have nothing to lose, and certainly everything to gain by ridding the world of the cult of death.

I hope so.

72 Trumpeter  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:01:00am

At the Know the enemy.

73 abc  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:01:06am

60, 65

a black eye delivered by an unknown assailant who apparently objected to a painting that depicts U.S. soldiers torturing Iraqi prisoners.

I almost cheered, when I read, 'unknown assailant', because this means the guy got away.

Okay, I did cheer.

She'll get over it.

74 odin  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:01:57am

#13 Poitiers-Lepanto, #16 Eric

Magnificent dictionary!

75 Leah  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:03:44am

P...Oh the tragedy of it all...Having to watch Trailor Trash get laid..Lollololololololol Im sorry...so hysterical...

76 Hmmm  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:06:00am

arafat wants his own stand up show!

we stopped 34 attacks in the last 6 weeks - or so he says !

i want to make peace he says!

oh no not again!

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

77 Trumpeter  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:06:58am

At the
Barking Moonbat you can read
Know the enemy.

78 observer  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:07:02am

#14, Darth

Yes, yes, yes.

But who will say what you wrote here to the American people? Who has even come close? I mean, a figure powerful and eloquent enough to tear them away from "American Idol?"

I suspect the jihad will have to experience its equivalent of Hitler's Poland and France campaigns to rally what's left of the West.

If we're lucky.

79 Promethea  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:07:40am

#54 JohninLondon . . .

The enemy amongst us - en masse, and still being allowed into Britain. We must be mad !!!

Hi JohninLondon. I got the impression from Halldor that you and your fellow Britons were upset with LGF and didn't visit anymore. I'm glad to see you're still here!

I have a question that maybe I should google but perhaps you can answer--

In the years before World War II, did the UK try to prevent Nazis from entering the country or was it pretty much an open society as it seems to be toward Muslims?

I keep looking for parallels between the 1930s and today, and maybe this is one. In the U.S. the immigrations policies were quite different at that time, so there aren't any parallels.

80 Promethea  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:08:35am

#79 me . . .

I mean the parallels were not applicable re immigration.

81 Beagle  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:15:25am

Thanks for that. Not that I wanted to read it, but everyone should.

82 Leah  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:16:28am

YoullAll...Just said this on another thread the other day..but GOT TO say this again here. Been watching and living thru this issue since the first OIL SHOCK..(yes life changed for Americans and Jews since that time) and I must conclude after all this time that YES..Islam as it is working today..as their people believe TODAY is WORSE (can you imagine that a Jew would say this) than Nazi Germany..Why? First because a significant number of these people (Islamists) have a fucking SCREW LOOSE...Second--there are just too many of these crazy violent people around. Simple as that.

Comparison to Russians. Russia wanted to be the supreme country BUT they were not willing to destroy THEMSELVES and the rest of the world to accomplish their goal. Russians arent NUTS. Russians are ALSO in the 20th and 21st Century unlike members of Islam.

Summary: Our old "enemies" were dangerous--held different values but they were NOT CRAZY..Thats the diff.

83 Stinky  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:17:32am

Everyone needs to show this website that is linked in the article to everyone else. Not only does it illustrate what we already know, but those pictures of Pals pointing guns at Clinton and burning Barak need to be tatooed w/in the eyes of every multi-lateralist E.U.N sycophantic numbnuts in the history of the species. LLLism is no salvation from the Palestinians. Barak and Clinton did the nasty w/ the Pals, and the are still as killable as Bush and Sharon in the Pally eyes. When will it sink in?

84 Steve  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:17:51am

Syphlitic lesions within the Arab brain expressing itself.

These people have flown full-bloom into the 1943 Aushwitz mindset. They only lack the Aryan ability to organize, and I G Farben., which judging from what was found in Jordan they are racing to remedy.

Part of the drop in Bush's poling numbers I believe comes from people like me that want the US to be more agressive and violent (if necessary) to get Iraq under control.

85 abc  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:20:02am

14

To defeat this, we need a total commitment to victory and a willingness to do whatever it takes to win, as we did in WWII. We still have the ability to win, we must generate the will to become more than a match for our enemies, not only in strength and determination but more importantly in ruthlessness as well.

'To defeat this':
I think another 911 style attack, or something worse, will do it.

This will either change the mood of the leftists, remember they're primarily emotionalists, or it will bring marshall law and a truning loose of the military.

And the military knows what needs to be done. They have their doctrine, their history (the Indian Wars), and their leadership and integrity.

So, one way or another, the muslims are in a world of hurt and they don't know it. I refer you to the friday spew from the mosque and madrassa.

Since it's Sunday, and with hesitation,

THE INTEGRITY OF THE UPRIGHT SHALL GUIDE THEM: BUT THE PERVERSENESS OF TRANSGRESSORS SHALL DESTROY THEM.

I spew a bible quote.

Spit-toohey...choke on it muslims.

86 odin  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:21:38am

#79

Many people in the UK and US supported Hitlers ideas as they were known, looking at the positive sides of Hitler and his ideology - and since this probably will raise a few eyebrows here, read for example this before you stomp on me.

87 Truth Dr.  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:23:51am

Only when the weak and the stupid are willing to face the truth about this enemy will we be able to defeat this monster. But those who protect and give comfort to this enemy like Peter Jennings, the NY Times, Jack Layton, Svend Robinson, Naomi Klein, Pat Buchanan, Jesse Jackson and the others are a formidable force. WE can only pray that we defeat them before they let those who cherish freedom and democracy lose the battle.

88 DarthMaulrulesok  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:25:16am

Re. no. 78, Observer:

Well, I'll tell you who I think should START to tell the American people what they are up against - President Bush. He is, after all, our Commander in Chief and constitutionally responsible for national strategy. He should be leading the federal government in a massive public education program about the realities of Islamic terrroism.

Among other things, we could use new versions of the old "why we fight" films. There should be TV shows, films, books, etc 24 hours a day explaining how Muslims wage terrorism, what the public should watch for (people in heavy coats in summer, for example), and what the government is doing. In Israel the people are very much part of the war effort, we need to do the same here. I am not talking about a draft but about public awareness, education and involvement. I could think of a lot of things we could be doing, from war bonds to public militias, that are not being done.

I guess it is going to take a WMD attack in the US with mass casualties before we start taking this war seriously.

89 John  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:25:42am
And it gets worse. In 2003, nearly two years later, Arab parents in Gaza cheered again when their little children dressed up as members of the Ramallah lynch mob, complete with hands painted blood red, for a kindergarten graduation ceremony.

Kindergarten is nazi-language. It fits to these arabs...

90 abc  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:26:21am

And to the anti-American idol people:

Yes televison is absolute garbage. But compared to limb amputation, genital mutilation, beheadings and stonings,

it's absolute innocence.

Say what you will about it, but it's time to choose.

91 Leah  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:27:49am

Well well now...ODIN..Is that the spelling of the the name of the old Norse G-d? That what your nickname is supposed to be?

92 Thom™  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:27:52am

#89 John

"Kindergarten" is German, if you please.

93 Hmmm  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:28:52am

stop apologizing !!

Israel's Foreign Ministry and the IDF Spokesman almost automatically issue statements of deep sorrow when a military operation results in Palestinian civilian casualties. Such apologetic responses are echoed by Jewish organizations abroad, magnifying the impression that Israel has done something wrong.

Such statements are usually viewed as a hypocritical ritual. Nobody really takes them seriously. Moreover, this Pavlovian instinct to apologize is counterproductive since it implies an acceptance of responsibility for those losses. This is the usual message conveyed by the international media.

Yet the Palestinian losses are clearly not Israel's moral responsibility.

The Palestinians have chosen the path of violence, particularly so after September 2000. It is they who are to blame for the morally despicable acts of terror and Israel's countermeasures, harsh as they may be.

The Palestinians received innumerable chances for a cease-fire, but failed to implement a single one. All political attempts to shift the Palestinians from violence to the negotiation table were unsuccessful.

We are confronted by a society that is mesmerized by bloody attacks, relishes the sickening sights of Palestinian militias playing with the severed limbs of dead Israeli soldiers, and savors gory images of maimed Israeli bodies, victims of a bus explosion.

see the rest of efraim inbars article at:

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

94 Steve  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:30:46am

I believe there is value in the US appearing, at least militarily, to be somewhat unpredictable and dangerous. I am not encouraged but what I see in Fallujah and elsewhere. I believe the US should have long ago sent an unequivocal message to Iran and Syria that if they don't immediately stop border infiltration and withdraw their warriors that the US would respond with force. I would then wait a week and bomb several of their border posts and radar installations.
I would also make the declaration that because these countries, and others, are the financial, material and ideological supporters of the war being waged against us that if a nuclear or radiological weapon is detonated here against us or any US property overseas that the US would respond by nuking 2 of their cities immediately. If they persist with another such weapon then 2 more of their cities would be nuked etc.. Maybe this would provide incentive for Iran, Syria, NK and the Saudis to violently shut down their support for terrorists as they would be the direct losers should the terrorists succeed. I know this would bring a huge outcry from the entire world but everything we do now does anyway. During the cold war it was understood by both sides what the consequences were for a nuclear attack on the other. I think it is just and indeed morally right to inform the world that the US will take these specific actions if we are attacked with nuclear weapons. As with children, which the rest of the world and some in our own country appear more and more to resemble, it is the parents responsibility to lay the ground rules and the consequences for their breaking the rules. It is to me more just to explain to the world the consequences for specific actions against us and therefore possibly prevent the attacks than to remain silent and then respond with extreme force after the fact.

95 Maine's Michael  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:31:29am
I never thought I would say this, but these people are as bad as the Nazis and the Communists.

Yeah, but, mercifully, less competent.

96 abc  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:31:54am

87

Only when the weak and the stupid are willing to face the truth about this enemy will we be able to defeat this monster. But those who protect and give comfort to this enemy like Peter Jennings, the NY Times, Jack Layton, Svend Robinson, Naomi Klein, Pat Buchanan, Jesse Jackson and the others are a formidable force. WE can only pray that we defeat them before they let those who cherish freedom and democracy lose the battle.

These people, liberals in general, 'risk being swept away with the enemy they tacitly and openly support.

I think the democrats are spiraling apart and they don't know it. I refer you to barking Gore and stretch face Pelosi. They're the 'leaders' after all.

97 odin  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:32:18am

#91

Well well now...ODIN..Is that the spelling of the the name of the old Norse G-d? That what your nickname is supposed to be?

That is the spelling. And kindly note that I have been promoted here:

"COPENHAGEN—Denmark says it will let a group that worships Thor, Odin and other Norse gods conduct legally recognized marriages."

98 EddieP  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:32:31am

What do the following countries have in common?

Afganistan
Algeria
Egypt
France
Germany
Greece
Indonesia
India
Iraq
Iran
Israel
Italy
Jordan
Kosovo
Lebanon
Malaysia
Morocco
Pakistan
Palestine
Philippines
Saudi Arabia
Serbia
Somalia
Spain
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Syria
Thailand
Tunisia
Turkey
Yemen
UK
USA

They all suffer extreme violence at the hands of the Religion of Peace.

Hello?

99 Luigi  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:34:39am

98 EddieP

Nice scholarly research, Eddie. Where'd you get it?

100 libsquasher  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:34:43am

#96

"These people, liberals in general, 'risk being swept away with the enemy they tacitly and openly support."

abc, Pat Buchanan is not a liberal.

101 DarthMaulrulesok  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:35:38am

Re. no. 85, abc:

Actually, I think a better example from US history would be the Phillipine Insurrection of 1900-03, where the US Army did face and defeat an Islamic terror based insurgency. They were not gentle about it but they did what needed to be done.

(Small historical note for Iron Fist and other interested readers: The Phillipine Insurrection was the inspiration behind the development of the .45 Automatic, arguably one of the best handguns ever made. The US Army found their .38 revolvers did not have enough stopping power for the beserk Muslum knife-wielding Moro tribesmen, so they demanded and got a weapon with more stopping power).

One lesson I have advocated here and elsewhere, that could be applied fairly quickly: When Black Jack Pershing wanted to deter some Islamic terrorists, he captured 6 or so, lined them up and made them dig their own graves. Then he brought in some pigs, slaughtered them, and began to cook them. He then told the Muslims: "when we kill you, we will bury you with the offal of the pigs. You will never see paradise." He then executed 5 of the 6, and let the last one "escape" so he could spread the word to his terrorist friends.

It worked.

102 Dahvid  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:37:42am

#82

Some muslim leaders ain't crazy. Remember Saddam slithered out of his hole rather than die a martyr, like his faithful would. This is the cold calculated use of mind control. It is amazing how people can be brainwashed to suicide. The suicide nuts are literally cannon fodder. There is a history of this suicidal assassin strategy, only modern technology has multiplied the devastating effect dramatically.

Your point is well taken...the frightening prospect of them owning WMD suggests armageddon, especially since insane suicide cults are all the rage these days.

103 Leah  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:40:28am

odin: Let me get this all put together then..YOU are promoting worship of "Odin"? and you are from?

(Incidently ...my DNA has a significant amount of VIKING markers..Whole family's appearance reflects the truth that some nice Viking made "love" (prefer to think of it this way) to my Great Great GREAT Grandmom) ...

One "Viking" to another then..whats with this ODIN thing?

104 EddieP  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:41:37am

#14 Garth
#88 Garth

The difference between WWII and the WOT is that the MSM including Hollywood and the networks want us to lose. They wouldn't even carry Bush's report to the world the other night. You are correct, we need a massive campaign to explain the rightness of our cause, the only problem is that those best able to do that hate the USA. Regards

105 libsquasher  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:42:37am

#88

"Well, I'll tell you who I think should START to tell the American people what they are up against - President Bush. He is, after all, our Commander in Chief..."

AbsoDAMNlutely! Problem is, our esteemed CIC is lying to the American public by proclaiming (and repeating) that "Islam is a religion of peace." Politically he must say this, of course, but with most Americans already asleep to the threat in our midst this isn't helping things one whit.

"Among other things, we could use new versions of the old "why we fight" films. There should be TV shows, films, books, etc 24 hours a day explaining how Muslims wage terrorism, what the public should watch for ..."

Right on!!

"I guess it is going to take a WMD attack in the US with mass casualties before we start taking this war seriously. "

Unfortunately, this seems to be the case. Because of our all-volunteer military and low casualities, to many Americans this war "doesn't directly affect them." Part of the reason is the media -- look at how soon after 09/11 people forgot about it.

106 Daybrother  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:48:18am
Don't Look Away

Well sure...OF COURSE they look bad if you put it like that...

107 odin  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:49:38am

#103 Leah

No, I am most certainly not promoting worship of the Norse gods, but, yes, I am Danish.

So, I am afraid I cannot conduct your marriage. :(

108 abc  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:57:12am

101

Actually, I think a better example from US history would be the Phillipine Insurrection of 1900-03, where the US Army did face and defeat an Islamic terror based insurgency. They were not gentle about it but they did what needed to be done.

I disagree, respectfully.

The Indian Wars are what is now needed. The US military pretty much removed a primitive people from American soil. A primitive people who could not be reasoned with, who were attacking innocents, non-combatants, and who were standing in the way of civilizations progress.

And this process is now needed world wide, instead of any particular country.

In the end, the muslims will be sorry they left their homelands to be rounded up and sent back or killed.

This is a war, a big one. And it isn't going to be pretty.

Blackjack was aiming to coexist, to put an enemy down and live with the remainders.

But now, unfortunately, something else is going to be required.

There is no living with this form of savagery and nihilism. You can only destroy it. The nilhilist left has teamed with the savage muslim.

Pity for them, they will have to be destroyed.

109 Leah  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:57:14am

For now Odin..just wanted to see if what I thought your nickname was...WAS...

110 abc  Sun, May 30, 2004 11:59:57am

102

Some muslim leaders ain't crazy. Remember Saddam slithered out of his hole rather than die a martyr, like his faithful would.

Are you sure this is proof of rationality? Or just cowardess?

111 angeles  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:01:08pm

#8 [Engineer]

It gets worse before it gets better.

Nissan Raslav-Katz did not mention in the article that:
1) the videos showing these atrocities were destroyed and/or handed over to the Palestinians by news sources--only one was smuggled out by Italian newspeople, one of whom wrote a sniveling letter of apology in order to remain in the good graces of the Palestinians for more "news". Fortunately, the video was leaked and put on a website by an Israeli (rotter.net).
So, if not for some peoples' heroic, individual acts, this catching of the Palestinians "red-handed" would not have come to light.
2) Nicholas Berg was a Jew. His Jewish name is Nachum ben Mikhail v' Shulamit (his parents). Dollars to doughnuts Al Zarkawhi and crew knew he was a Jew.
3) The atrocities committed by the Palestinians/other Arab terrorists (which includes members of the Palestinian "police") have included, just in the past 3 .5 years, hundreds of bombings, many of which hit their marks, the bombs being crammed with rat poison, nails, ball bearings, and a number of other items which were designed to insure that even if some people lived, they would be in excruciating pain and mutilated. That's infants, children, women, boys and girls, men, old and young.
4) The Palestinians have routinely celebrated bombings with candy, money being handed out, and parties.
5) Oh, yeah, engineer, Nissan Raslav-Katz also did not mention how 10-month old Shalhevet Pass' head was shot off by a sniper while her father was cradling her in his arms. That's just another example.
6) And in addition, which I don't think that he would have mentioned, serious Muslim jihadi sympathizers--not just ditzy college kids--are in the US and have been for a while. This looks like it's going to be an ugly fight.
7) And further, if it comes to pass, it will not be against a monolithic enemy like the Nazis or the Russian communists--it will be against an enemy that is scattered throughout the globe. And totally barbaric.

112 Dahvid  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:06:31pm

#104 eddiep

"You are correct, we need a massive campaign to explain the rightness of our cause, the only problem is that those best able to do that hate the USA."

Nicely said. Is FOX News a step in the right direction? I'd like to start my own TV shows, etc, but figure that "Hollywood" wouldn't allow it.

It would be great to start a news broadcast based on the Debka [Link: www.debka.com...]
And maybe a miniseries on the surviviors and fatalities of muslim attacks. This would make Hollywood hoot and howl for sure.

I don't understand how the liberal left can have a virtual monopoly on media, when so many people resent it.

113 abc  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:06:41pm

Practically speaking,

Islam means 'death to the infidel',

regardless of what the dictionary or the quron says.

And liberal means nihilist,

regardless of what Noam Chimpsky says.

How can you 'live' with either? Tell me.

114 Geepers  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:11:37pm

DarthMaulrulesok (#101),

That "Black Jack" Pershing Story has been told a lot of times a lot of way, but probably isn't true.

The history of the American administration of the Philippines between the Spanish cession of the islands at the conclusion of the Spanish-American war in 1898 and the attainment of full political independence in 1946 — including American attempts to "pacify" various independence-minded groups through military means — is too long and complicated to explicate here. Suffice it to say that General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing was part of the process as Governor of the troublesome Moro Province between 1909 and 1913. We haven't yet found any references to this alleged incident in Pershing biographies, however, nor does it match the way Pershing is generally recorded as having dealt with the Moros in 1911. When they refused to obey Pershing's order banning firearms by surrendering their weapons, his response was to draft a letter to the Moros expressing sorrow that his soldiers had to resort to killing to enforce the order:


I write you this letter because I am sorry to know that you and your people refuse to do what the government has ordered. You do not give up your arms. Soldiers were sent to Taglibi so that you could come into camp and turn in your guns. When the soldiers went to camp a Taglibi, your Moros fired into camp and tried to kill the soldiers. Then the soldiers had to shoot all Moros who fired upon them. When the soldiers marched through the country, the Moros again shot at them, so the soldiers had to kill several others. I am sorry the soldiers had to kill any Moros. All Moros are the same to me as my children and no father wants to kill his own children . . .
When negotiations stalled and matters came to a head, Pershing was still reluctant to be responsible for any more loss of life than was necessary:


[Vandiver, 1977]
[Pershing] went to his offices on [14 December 1911] only to hear a message from the Sulu district governor: hundreds of hostiles gathered on Jolo's Bud Dajo! The message had dread portent. Mount Dajo, awesomely high and capped with the creater of an extinct volcano, meant sacred things to Moros. It was the refuge against fate, the last bastion of the hopeless, the place where their ancestors stood off great waves of enemies. Once on the mountain, esconced in its big cotta, Moros would die gladly, as Leonard Wood had grimly learned. Retreat to Dajo meant a clear declaration of war.

Sobered and depressed, Jack wrote of an overriding worry: "I am sorry these Moros are such fools, but . . . I shall lose as few men and kill as few Moros as possible." Memories of Wood's massacre of men and families on Dajo rankled in the army and still bothered the chief of staff. Obviously another such slaughter in the winter of 1911 could adversely influence the 1912 elections in the States.

In fact Pershing's strategy was much like the one we're using in Fallujah today.

Pershing's strategy was to surround the Moros and wait them out while attempting to induce them to surrender, a strategy that worked effectively: the Bud Dajo campaign ended with only twelve Moro casualties. But in his report Pershing seemed keenly aware that the best approach was not to take any action that would encourage religious fanaticism:

Pershing

115 libsquasher  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:12:10pm

Johninlondon,

Based on what I've read it was the social programs that got you guys into this mess. In order to have the tax base to underwrite the social programs, there have to be workers... and, like in America, the demographics over there have changed. With more retirees and couples having fewer babies (and fewer couples having babies), the long-term trend was clear... So, rather than doing the FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE, COURAGEOUS thing (which, of course, would be to CUT social spending), the "solution" was to increase immigration in order to get more workers. Mind you, I'm not blasting the UK per se but the policy -- America is right behind you guys on the fast track to hell. The Muslims had a wide open door to enter, which came in handy for their global takeover plans (facilitated by, of course, LIBERALISM, and I'm not just talking about immigration here).

Our own LIBERALISM has us in smiliar straits, and in a few years we will have the same problems you guys and France are facing with these vermin within your borders. So it always amazes me to hear some LLL touting Europe as the model the U.S. should follow. Europe is a mess IMO, and we don't need to follow their lead!!!

116 theheat  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:13:30pm
Well, I'll tell you who I think should START to tell the American people what they are up against - President Bush... He should be leading the federal government in a massive public education program about the realities of Islamic terrroism.

Even if he wanted to, how could Bush possibly stand up and say such a thing with all the whining, liberal, teachers in our schools right now teaching our kids how evil America is, and having "learn about Islam" programs like they did in California? These teachers as bad as the Islamic clerics - but here at home it's state-paid brainwashing - with benefits!

It would be a great start, yes, but I don't think whoever has been whispering in Bush's ear has the foresight to do it. Obviously, Bush is selling the same tired lies about Islam over and over again to "keep the peace" in the streets in the US.

It's time people woke up and remembered that our freedom of choice also grants us the freedom to not tolerate the intolerable.

I don't accept, in any fiber of my being, women and children chanting in the streets at the deaths and torture of American soldiers or our allies. It's as obvious a "F-YOU, America" gesture as they come.

They can take their stone-age religion, choke on it, and die. They can starve... they can go without water... the women can cross their legs and cease to multiply... they can die of heat stroke under their relgious garments, for all I care. I do not care about the demise of those who are so violently against me.

I'd just as soon use the Koran to wipe my a** or line the bottom of my bird cage. These people are a joke - a disgrace - and should be dealt with accordingly.

Unfortunately, the Bush administration still doesn't get it.

117 biff  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:16:06pm

#33 Powderfinger

an absolutely brilliant summation of the prison s*andal, and something that should have been in W's morning briefing before he opened his mouth on this subject.

118 Dahvid  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:16:10pm

102


"Some muslim leaders ain't crazy. Remember Saddam slithered out of his hole rather than die a martyr, like his faithful would.

Are you sure this is proof of rationality? Or just cowardess?"

It only points out that the muslim leaders are not willing to die like their fanatical followers, so there might be a method to their madness. They don't want to die, they want to rule. Notice how quickly Libya came into line when Saddam was pulled from his hole. Perhaps it is best to attack the snake's head...that is the leaders who are in power and don't wish to die like their fanatical supporters.

119 abc  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:19:16pm

114

fwiw

Pershing's strategy was to surround the Moros and wait them out while attempting to induce them to surrender,

How can we 'surround' the modern day muslims that have infiltrated/emigrated to every western country?

There will have to be some sort of quarantine, and a rounding up and deport strategy.

And this is the Indian wars all over.

If part of their strategy is take over by immigration, then we have to face it, and stop it. Period.

120 libsquasher  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:19:34pm

"It only points out that the muslim leaders are not willing to die like their fanatical followers, so there might be a method to their madness. They don't want to die, they want to rule."

Saddam was not a Muslim leader, my friend. He was a secularist.

(Forever the consummate politician, he did, however, invoke jihadspeak when it was to his advantage politically.)

121 abc  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:21:21pm

118

It only points out that the muslim leaders are not willing to die like their fanatical followers, so there might be a method to their madness.


Yeah, well duh.

The 'method' is hypocracy.

122 Ed Moran:Abu GOMEX at Magic 26.5C !!!  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:23:19pm

108

I'm not Native American, but some of them were far from uncivilized. IIRC, one tribes of upstate NY (the Iriquois?) actually had a written code of law that predates the US Constitution. The Cherokee developed a system of government patterned on the US constitution, and successfully appealed their expulsion from the Southeastern states to the US Supreme Court (Jackson famoulsy said something to the effect of "now let the Supreme Court enforce it) and the "Trail of Tears" followed. I leanred about Chief Joseph and the Nez Perce Indians in school before the PC wave had hit.


I don't think even the most savage of the indigenous Americans, such as the Comanches, were as willfully cruel as the adherents of Islam.

It is insulting to American Indians living or dead to compare in any way.

123 Powderfinger  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:25:24pm

#117 biff

I'd prefer that the leader of the free world, and the Commander in Chief of the most powerful military force the world has ever known not be wasting his time micromanaging such minutiae. I think he's got a war to win, and I'd prefer that he not spend another second giving a tinker's damn about what indignities might befall those who would happily kill American soldiers. I rather he think about bombs than panties, though I realize that's a significant change from the previous administration. Why should it be in the PDB when we have the NYT to put it on the front page for a month straight?

BTW, How is Muffy? I haven't seen her 'round the club in ages.

124 Ed Moran:Abu GOMEX at Magic 26.5C !!!  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:28:03pm
125 biff  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:33:32pm

123 Powderfinger

Because put the way you did in #33, he might have taken a second to realize that it wasn't worth the POTUS prostrating himself to the moslem world over.

126 biff  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:36:12pm

123 Powderfinger

...oh, she and our new foal are doing quite well, thanks.

127 fred from AL  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:38:24pm

For my 2¢ regarding the final straw that will induce us to "go medieval" on the enemy.

IMO when -

the price of gasoline is steady over $5/gal,
food prices have trebeled because of lowered yields,
unemployment is pushing 20%,
millions are losing their homes,
and hundreds of thousands of businesses are bankrupt

- we will find the political will to "do the deed", probably in response to some attack.

Think that can't happen?

It is the intention of the Mullahs in Iran to make exactly that happen. It is the intention of OBL to make that happen. It will happen if they get control of enough of the ME oil.

If they snuck a nuke into an American city tomorrow, we would face the same problem we face today - no meaningful target.

We will have to be desperate before we are willing to inflict the number of casualties required to address the problem.

128 Ed Moran:Abu GOMEX at Magic 26.5C !!!  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:42:13pm

Extensive cloud cover has kept Houston at 33C (92F), which probably is just a shade to low to bust through the stout warm mixed layer about 7000 feet up blown of the Mexican plateau.

You might think I want storms that tap the estimated 2880 Joules/Kg of CAPE and become severe (mainly just gusty winds, helicity in Houston area below 100 m^2/s^2 don't favor large hail or tornadoes), but really, it would save me some time, money and effort watering the lawn tomorrow.

BTW, a rabbit ate most of my freshly sprouted avocado plant. I have put up a wire cage around what is left, but there is only one small piece of leaf left, and I'm not at all confident it'll survive. I got there just in time to see the rabbit sprint for the hole under the fence I keep filling in.


I may or may not have seen a coral snake while mowing the front yard. I could clearly see bright yellow and black, I'm not positive I saw red, and I have no idea whether I saw yellow on black or whatever. The snake sprinted for my neighbors bushes about 30 feet ahead of my mower, and no, I didn't get into the bushes to see whether it was a deadly snake.

We did kill a thick dark snake, almost black, in the backyard that had retractable fangs in a very white mouth a couple of years ago. Maybe if I'd let the poison snake live, it would have killed the killer rabbits grandparents, and I wouldn't be plagued by rabbits that poop all over my yard.

129 Dahvid  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:43:23pm

"It only points out that the muslim leaders are not willing to die like their fanatical followers, so there might be a method to their madness. They don't want to die, they want to rule."

Saddam was not a Muslim leader, my friend. He was a secularist.

(Forever the consummate politician, he did, however, invoke jihadspeak when it was to his advantage politically.)

#120 libsquasher:

Thanks for the correction, I'm sure you're right. It is difficult to identify the enemy with the myriad of ideologies floating around. What I meant was pertaining to a general composite of, but not limited to, mideastern tyrannical regimes whom all seem to support palestenian suicide type tactics. Not to mention other civilizied countries who are complicit by their silence, inaction, or public support. For example, you note that Saddam did invoke "jihadspeak". The scary part is that this jihadspeak is bleeding into western culture.

130 Ed Moran:Abu GOMEX at Magic 26.5C !!!  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:44:59pm

Fred from Al


Despite no rain, we didn't go to Galveston because my wife's grandparents who were already down there came back because it was so windy. I hope the wind mellows a little before you go out.

I do think the major media has done a good enough job surpressing the news of the barbarity of the Islamists that we won't truly get into a war footing before another terror attack.

I wish Bush and company would do a better job keeping it frontb and center.


Gotta go, green flag.

131 its jake  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:46:11pm

This is why I won't cry a single tear if someone kills every single "Palestinian" on earth.

132 Promethea  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:52:11pm

#86 Odin . . .

Thanks for the link. Everyone should read it.

133 NY Nana  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:54:43pm

#82 Leah

You are right re the cult of islam being worse than the nazis. I don't think any Jew, any Christian, anyone who lost their families in h***'s ovens would ever even imagine thinking that in 10 centuries, but barely 60 years after the Shoah, we are faced with an even worse danger: the cult of islam. The rest of our European allies realized what danger they were in over 60 years ago, and we joined in, albeit reluctantly, to stop both h*** and Mussolini; now these same allies, on whose land the war was fought, and who lost so many people, civilian as well as military, while we were blessed in North America to have our countries physically unscathed, look the other way. Watching the opening of the WWII monument yesterday had me weeping.

Now, after 9/11, these same countries turn their backs, as the cult of islam sets about its goal; the destruction of civilization, in the name of their cult leader.

Damn it, wake up, Europe! They are not only after Jews and Americans, they are after all of you infidels. If you want to be subjugated as dhimmis, fine, or slaughtered as infidels, fine. Sit there and look the other way. I just heard that PM Blair is now considering pulling the UK troops out by years' end, as the war is not going on the timetable in his head. Is he more worried about his job than about the UK's future??? Look at Spain, the poster child of cowardice. The French are laughable and pathetic. Look at what happened in Saudi Arabia to 'infidels', who the cultists seperated from the R0P, in order not to upset arab sensibilities, as they murdered them.

The cult of islam, a group of raving fanatics, would destroy us all in the wink of an eye, if they can muster the proper weapons, and with so many prostitute nations willing to sell them the bits and pieces, it will happen, unless all the damned ostriches get their heads out of the sand.

After losing my family in Europe to the ovens, I am still in shock that I would ever think there could be an evil greater than h***'s, but the cult of islam is, IMHO.

Quite an article, this.

134 fred from AL  Sun, May 30, 2004 12:55:38pm

#130 Ed Moran

Thanks for the good wishes, but it ain't lookin good. Winds 10-15 kts thru Thursday (I just get the 5 day Marine forecast). We'll see what they're saying about Friday tomorrow. Right now the data buoy I watch (42040) is showing 17.5 kts and 5.2' waves. They are predicted to subside somewhat and the good tides last 'til the 7th. Who knows?

The seas depend not only on the strength of the winds, but the reach and continuity. I still have some hope but there does not appear to be much chance until the weekend. I'm not going to drag my boat down unless it looks really worth it, I'll just wait for the next spring tides.

135 SwampWoman  Sun, May 30, 2004 1:07:15pm

#128 Ed

You need to get you a good-sized rat snake, black snake, or hog-nosed snake to hang in your backyard to alleviate the rabbit problem. Unfortunately, tryin' to fence a snake in is hard and then they have a tendency to hide under the damn lawnmower and then snake pieces are flyin' everywhere.

The hawks and coyotes really ought to have killed that rabbit by now.

136 FabioC.  Sun, May 30, 2004 1:13:44pm

I've always been struck by the utter lack of humanity of these terrorists. They do not only kill, but mutilate, maim.
So only epics and fantasy are adequate to describe such evil: the Islamic supremacists are the Orcs, the Huruk-hai, they are the evil followers of Yog-sothoth and Cthulu.

There is no room in the civilized world for evildoers like these. Only the deepest dungeons, or even better a cheap coffin.

137 transferthem  Sun, May 30, 2004 1:15:52pm

Those who don't agree with me that Israel should expel all arabs and to arab countries and incorporate Judea, Samaria and Gaza into its territory - just read the article again and again till you do agree with me.

These are the new Barbarians. They are the uncivilised face of subhmanity. The mighty Roman Empire fell to such people because it went soft. So it is with the west today. All we can hope is that the Jews at least see sense and expel them. Transfer them to Jordan, Syria, Egypt. They are not worthy to live among civilised people.

138 Nannette  Sun, May 30, 2004 1:35:37pm

You've seen me on TV, but you don't know my name, and if you run into me in the street, you won't recognize me. That's because my face was covered while I was posing for the camera along with four of my comrades, assembled for the execution of an American. I am one of those responsible, whom your president promised to bring to justice. Good luck!

Doesn't it strike you as strange that we, the obvious underdog, do not care whether you love us or hate us, although you can, in theory, blow us away in less time than it took us to film the beheading?

Think about it 'til we meet again. And we will, I promise.

139 abc  Sun, May 30, 2004 1:42:43pm

122

It is insulting to American Indians living or dead to compare in any way.

Yeah, it is insulting. Get over it.

I'm talking about history and what actually happened.

And stuff your idiotic weather reports too.

140 Nannette  Sun, May 30, 2004 1:50:06pm

#133 NY Nana

These terrorists, because there are so many of them, make the Nazis look like amateurs... but the difference is, the Nazis wore uniforms and you could see their faces!

The terrorists are nothing but yellow bellied cowards who are at their best in large numbers, killing women and children!

They've yet to learn what a "real" man is!

141 Ed Moran:Abu GOMEX at Magic 26.5C !!!  Sun, May 30, 2004 1:51:57pm

I had a real long skinny black snake a few weeks that scared me when I came up on him/her. That snake, maybe 4 or 5 feet, but skinny, was as scared of me as I was of him. He left his mouse/rat behind.


Something killed a possum in my yard last year, but left it to get all nasty.

I still think it'll take another terror attack, and even then Dan Rather et ux will be trying so hard to spin it as Bush's fault somehow that even then a lot of people won't realize the problem.


I still wonder, from a Catholic/Christian perspective, if Mohammad wasn't satanically inspired. BTW, it was on or about this day, just less than 2000 years ago, that we Christians believe the Holy Spirit decended on the disciples gathered together for the Pentecost, which we (Catholics, anyway) believe is the beginning of the Church.


I do pray daily for the protection of our troops, the comfort of their families, and wisdom for President Bush and his advisors.

I'm not trying to convert anybody, and I do believe G_d hears the prayers of all well intentioned people who pray with sincerity.


Back less off topic, I think it would be cool if the 15 DEI NAPA Monte Carlo could win his first non-restrictor plate race.

142 Ed Moran:Abu GOMEX at Magic 26.5C !!!  Sun, May 30, 2004 1:54:25pm

abc, abc, abc


What are we going to do with you? Boy.

143 Dahvid  Sun, May 30, 2004 1:57:10pm

#140 Nanette

Doesn't it strike you as strange that we, the obvious underdog, do not care whether you love us or hate us, although you can, in theory, blow us away in less time than it took us to film the beheading

We can, in theory, blow whom away?

144 Nannette  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:08:00pm

#143 Dahvid

Click on the linked text and read the whole article - then you'd understand...

145 Partizaner  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:08:04pm

136, 137:

I agree with your discussions, of transfer as the Israeli possible policy, and the comparison of the current situation to "The Lord of the Rings," which I watched last night on DVD. The WOT is becoming an eschatological battle (theological term regarding events dealing with the end of the world, for those without a handy dictionary) between the West and those that hate the West.

By the West, I take the broadest possible view, from the classical West of Europe and the US to Latin America to Japan to Singapore to Russia -- in other, all forces that could face attack by Islamic countries.

The comparison that comes to mind, as much as "The Lord of the Rings," is the movie "Independence Day" and "The War of the Worlds." We face an alien contagion that cannot be reasoned with, co-opted, or understood. The only response is contagion is isolation and cauterization. It may take more 9-11s in Paris, Moscow, Berlin, the US, Rome and elsewhere, but the ultimate solution may be creation of transfer and a quarantine zone around certain countries, an economic blockade that makes the US treatment of Cuba look benign. Since Islamic countries have no GNP to speak of other than oil and some religious books.

An air-tight quarantine will gradually weaken them to the point where they have returned to the economic circumstances of the time of the Prophet. No medicine, no cell phones, no infrastructure help, nothing. And there they will stay, except for those in the West who pledge fealty to Crown or Constitution (choose the national symbol of your liking. I guess a koala would work for Australia.)

All we have to do first is find an alternative to all that oil they've got. . . . come on, America, we can do it!

146 Stinky  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:12:01pm

Ed:

I still wonder, from a Catholic/Christian perspective, if Mohammad wasn't satanically inspired.

Well, suffice to say this holiday weekend Mohammed is attending a barbecue.

147 Dahvid  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:15:39pm

#144 Nannette

What linked text in which article?

148 Nannette  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:17:22pm
149 Nannette  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:18:34pm

#147 Dahvid

Click on the clue text in post #138

150 Nannette  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:19:02pm

Ooops, I meant blue...

151 Dahvid  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:22:08pm

Nannette

Ok, I get it now. For a minute I thought that you were claiming to be "A Man without a Face".

152 Nannette  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:26:36pm

#151 Dahvid

LOL - I'm not a man and I have a face! :-)

153 NY Nana  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:34:15pm

#140 Nannette

These terrorists, because there are so many of them, make the Nazis look like amateurs... but the difference is, the Nazis wore uniforms and you could see their faces!

The terrorists are nothing but yellow bellied cowards who are at their best in large numbers, killing women and children!

They've yet to learn what a "real" man is!

You are right. Again, in my mind, it goes to the type of, or better said, lack of parenting. There cultists are just as ready to take their own kids and happily turn them into homicide bombers as they are to kill Jews and all infidels. It is this aspect of their cult that makes it virtually impossible to stop them, and to try to re-educate these toddlers we see in their camouflage, with their toy (I should hope) rifles and shaheed bands on their little foreheads? Too many, in too many countries are already infected with the virus of islam, and now it comes to one conclusion: us or them.

For ovbious reasons, I pick us.

Charles has some new articles posted that illustrate what we are up against, and it doeesn't get better.

154 Judith  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:36:58pm
The Indian Wars are what is now needed. The US military pretty much removed a primitive people from American soil. A primitive people who could not be reasoned with, who were attacking innocents, non-combatants, and who were standing in the way of civilizations progress.

Un f*cking believable. I'm glad you spoke up Ed Moran. I'm really glad I wasn't the only one thoroughly nauseated by that.

abc, what you don't know about the Indian Wars could fill an ocean. No comparison, no equivalence, and no application to this situation. I suggest you go crawl back under your rock. You've had too much sun today.

Hey, Ed, did you see our heavy rainfall? The warning had ended but we're still getting spit on. Damn Texas Gulf air. You can have it back anytime now.

155 Nannette  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:50:36pm

#153 NY Nana

You are right. Again, in my mind, it goes to the type of, or better said, lack of parenting. There cultists are just as ready to take their own kids and happily turn them into homicide bombers as they are to kill Jews and all infidels. It is this aspect of their cult that makes it virtually impossible to stop them, and to try to re-educate these toddlers we see in their camouflage, with their toy (I should hope) rifles and shaheed bands on their little foreheads? Too many, in too many countries are already infected with the virus of islam, and now it comes to one conclusion: us or them.

You're right - it has to be us. We, as Jews are survivalists, although many are very cosy and comfortable in their lifestyles... but this time, the annihilators are after everyone who's not one of them... in other words if you don't believe in Shariah and radical Islam and all it entails, you're a dead man!

I think that dealing with these radical people will take radical measures, but it's a question of which country will be brave enough to make the first move... nearly all the western countries are infected with this cancer which seems to be growing stronger and stronger.

It's time the west turned around and said "ENOUGH" and for those who have demonstrated and said they want to implement Islamism into our society they should be told to leave the country.

It's time for those who like where we live to reclaim our countries...

156 JohninLondon  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:52:38pm

79 Promethea

I don't know where the idea arose that I or other Brits were staying away from LGF, or annoyed with it. I read it before I read the UK press - I want straight news !!! But I have not posted much recently as I have been very busy - so not much time to read all the comments.

86 odin

Yes, there were fascist sympathisers in Britain prewar - led by Oswald Mosley's Blackshirts. And a lot of division of views over the Spanish Civil War. But Mosley's mob were fought in the streets, especially by trade unionists and lablour supporters in the (largely Jewish) East End of London, and Mosley achieved nothing at the polls. And yes there was appeasement - but largely driven by a wish to avoid another war on mainland Europe. Millions of Brits and Empire soldiers had died in WW1. Millions. There was an abhorrence of war. But when the call came, Britain stood up against Hitler - and stood alone for several years, at grievous cost. And is still the clearest ally the US has in Europe - still with some useful military capability.

There is lots of muddled thinking on what to do about the Muslims, and there has been excessive immigration over the past decade, but Blair (whom I do not support politically) has played a pretty forthright role in the WoT.

133 NY Nana

I don't know where you heard that Blair wants to pull UK troops out by the end of the year. That is nonsense. Blair is in this for the long haul. He believed in the mission, he still resolutely believes in the mission. He wants to be vindicated - and that means NO withdrawal until Iraq is settled. In spite of a lot of unpopularity, and lots of flak over the prisoner issue, Blair has just sent some more troops, and looks likely to commit a few thousand more. Aside from the US, the Brit contingent is by far the largest in Iraq, and has mostly been doing a good job in the areas they control.


And don't forget that Blair fought the BBC right down to the wire - whatever the damage. I regard his grit on the Iraq issue as commendable - he will fight his corner on this, and he seems to be planning to say a few choice words to the leaders of "Old Europe" during the D-Day commemorations.

157 Nannette  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:52:51pm

If anyone thinks they can make "peace" with radical Islamists, they're wrong!

158 JohninLondon  Sun, May 30, 2004 2:56:55pm

NY Nana

A Sun story on commitment of further British troops - and Blair's determination to stay the course in Iraq.

[Link: www.thesun.co.uk...]

159 abc  Sun, May 30, 2004 3:08:29pm

To clear up any confusion, fwiw

I'm saying the west is going to have to do to the muslims what America did to the Indians. They will have be moved and some of them killed. And then quarantined for a very long time.

And I'm saying that the current radical muslims are as unable to be reasoned with as the former bunch of Indians, that ended up getting their people stuck on reservations.


Ed and Judith can claim to mis-understand this all they wish. And then dillute what I'm saying with as many mischaracterizations as they wish.

And they can go talk about the weather as much as they wish.

But this is a fair characterization of what's what today with the muslims, and what the remedy will look like.

160 Nannette  Sun, May 30, 2004 3:21:06pm

Rising antisemitism in France (again)...

Attacks against Jews and their property have escalated to an alarming extent. The French Jewish community (at 600,000, the second-largest Jewish population outside of Israel) is living in a state of anxiety. Hostile acts against Jews are posted weekly on the Web site of the Representative Council of Jewish Institutions of France (www.crif.org), and on [Link: www.consistoire.org...] a government hate-crime report center. Here are just a few examples from the last few weeks:

A 14-year-old boy wearing a yarmulke came out of the Ourq metro station and was followed by two young men. They called him a "dirty Jew" and robbed him in front of a crowd of witnesses. The men knocked the boy down, beat him on the head and broke his nose. The boy begged for help from passers-by, who simply walked away.

In central Paris, a teacher from a Jewish school was beaten up by young men, who ripped the Star of David from the teacher’s neck and trampled her. They called her a "dirty Jew" and lit her hair on fire. They also told her, "We’re going to burn all you Jews."

A group of four young men interrupted a class in the auditorium of the University Medical School of Saint-Antoine in Paris. They yelled, "We’re going to kill all the Jews" and, "We’re armed and we’re going to take you all down."

When a Jewish student confronted the men they beat him and robbed him. The professor who was teaching the class said nothing and the men walked out without a care while the class looked on in silence. The dean of the University has been told of the situation but has not yet responded.

On the walls of the Rue Des Rosiers (in the Marais, the Jewish quarter), once again there are signs of the Star of David in yellow paint accompanied by the slogan, "And don’t forget the showers of Zyclon," referring to the gas used in Nazi death camps.

Also in Paris, a 12-year-old girl coming out of a Jewish school was attacked by two men. They beat her, held her down and slashed her face with a box cutter. They carved a swastika into her face and walked away. Her parents have filed a police report.

Click for the rest of the article...

161 JohninLondon  Sun, May 30, 2004 3:25:00pm

This story of great bravery by a Marine corporal has probably been posted already. But it bears repeating.

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

162 Thom™  Sun, May 30, 2004 3:25:36pm

#159 abc

It's clear what you said, but it's not too clear why you said it.

Looks like there might be nasty weather here in Western Maryland tomorrow. A few days ago when that big storm blew through, The Weather Channel ticker read:

Doppler radar indicates tornado forming over Hagerstown.

Grabbed my scanner and the kids and headed for the basement. Fortunately, nothing came of it, although three tornados did form in Maryland that day: two F0s and an F1 (don't laugh mid-Westerners).

163 Judith  Sun, May 30, 2004 3:38:07pm
And I'm saying that the current radical muslims are as unable to be reasoned with as the former bunch of Indians, that ended up getting their people stuck on reservations.

abc-Squick. Don't put Islamofacists in the same sentence with people like the Cree, Navajo, Mohawk, Anishanabe unless it is your intention to display your own appalling ignorance. Don't put what the Israelis do in Israel and the Americans do in Iraq today with things like Canadian Residential schools or the Trail of Tears unless you want to undermine everything we are trying to do in LGF. Your comparison is almost as odious as calling Sharon a Nazi and Bush Hilter, not quite, but nearly so.

Thom I'm glad you and yours were okay. An F0-F1 is nothing to belittle, especially when it is coming at you.

164 Dahvid  Sun, May 30, 2004 3:48:37pm

LOL Nannette, you had me going there. I needed a drink. For a minute I thought you was the bogeyman!

Anyway, so you're not a man and you have a face, that's good to hear. Are you single? lol

165 Nannette  Sun, May 30, 2004 3:55:29pm

#164 Dahvid

I'm not the bogeyman! And your grammar is appalling...

I thought you was the bogeyman!


"thought you were" would have been more appropriate...

166 John Lennon  Sun, May 30, 2004 3:56:20pm

#160 Nannette

I think it is time to fight back. I would gladly help the parents of the daughter who was attacked with a boxcutter hunt and cut the balls off the animals who did it to her. I think it's time to fight back.

167 DarthMaulrulesok  Sun, May 30, 2004 4:01:13pm

Re. no. 114, Geepers:

I don't have my reference books with me, but I do remember seeing the story and am reasonably confident it is true. I was trying to use that story as an example of fighting Islamic terrorism on its own level, turning Islamic belief in paradise (their strongest motivator) against them. I was NOT trying to criticize general Pershing, a man I deeply admire. I DO agree he tried to minimize casualties on all sides as much as he could.

Re. no. 159, abc:

I think we can agree to disagree, up to a point. Let's try to find some common ground:

1. We do seem to be in a clash of civilizations with at least a significant part of Islamic civilization - the part that is willing to use terror to create a new, worldwide caliphate. How much support these terrorists command among Muslims worldwide has not, as far as I know, been determined.

2. Terrorism is also the tool of chice for waging war for the following states: Iran, Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian nation. So far, this is the core group of terrorist supporters. However -

3. Terrorism also enjoys significant support in many states such as Yemen, Egypt and the Sudan.

4. Many Islamic communities in the Western world also support terrorism at least to the extent of providing funding and perhaps some recruits.


Given all this, we need to unite as a nation and get serious about defeating terrorism. So far, Bush is trying to do two things

1. Demonstrate that terrorism does not pay.

2. Demonstrate that Western democracy is an attractive and viable alternative to Islamic rule. If proven true, this will drain the supply of recruits for terrorism (in theory).

I for one hope and pray Bush is successful. Because the alternatives are many times worse. Either we will surrender, in which case, at best, we can all look forward to another Dark Ages;

OR

We will be forced to kill truly massive numbers of Muslims for our own survival.

I do not want to see this.

BUT I WILL NOT SUBMIT TO ISLAM

So, if there are any LLL or Muslims reading this, take note: YOU had better hope President Bush succeeds and that there are NO WMD attacks on US soil..You will like the results far, far less than I.

168 Nannette  Sun, May 30, 2004 4:06:06pm

#166 John Lennon

You bet it's time to fight back! Someone has to start doing it somewhere, but usually in France, if anyone comes to the dfence of a Jew who's attacked, they'll be prosecuted for attacking the attacker (usually a Muslim male)... France is still in denial... just as they were during WW2.

169 Dahvid  Sun, May 30, 2004 4:10:15pm

Nannette

I am aware of my grammerical faux pas, which was meant for effect. I stand corrected. I am glad to be informed that you indeed are not the bogeyman. Thank you for the link to the interesting article ;)

170 Nannette  Sun, May 30, 2004 4:14:41pm

#169 Dahvid

You're welcome... :-)

171 angeles  Sun, May 30, 2004 5:08:13pm

#168 Nannette

The French suck big time. I spoke to a French Jewish doctor two years ago at a medical convention and he was scared out of his mind then. He would not wear his kippah on the street. He wanted to emigrate to Israel but his wife was afraid to. The French governmental and public response to these antisemitic acts has been appalling. As a former student of La langue and La Litterature, I would happily never eat a french fry again. Heureusement.

Liberte, Egalite, Dhimmitie.

I think all the French Jews should wing it to Israel.

172 Cart Williams  Sun, May 30, 2004 5:13:12pm

"Part of the drop in Bush's poling numbers I believe comes from people like me that want the US to be more agressive and violent (if necessary) to get Iraq under control."

Exactly right. So why do you suppose Bush agreed to withdraw the Marines when they were on the verge of of finishing off Sadar and his militamen?

That decision, plus the ongoing coverup of the United Nations oil for food scandal, about which Bush is silent, might very well be the straw that broke the camel's back, and in fact, signal the end of the road for his reelection expectations.

There is a limit to loyalty. Withdraw the marines + U.N. coverup. Well we can all draw our own conclusions I suppose.

173 Geepers  Sun, May 30, 2004 5:20:44pm

Cart Williams (#172),

plus the ongoing coverup of the United Nations oil for food scandal, about which Bush is silent,

Is your conclusion that Bush is somehow involved in the "U.N. coverup"?

174 NY Nana  Sun, May 30, 2004 5:47:39pm

#158 John in London

Thanks for the info. I imagine that you read the Sun for the articles? :) They really are a far more conservative paper than a few culprits I could name.

Me bad. I was listening to another all-news radio station, very LLL, as my regular carries the damned Yankees games, and that was where I heard it. It was not on their website.

Checking Sky, sure enough yet another article corroborating the Sun.

This really caught my eye...

PM wants Islam 'hearts and minds'


The Sunday Times says it has seen leaked Whitehall documents which "tackle the growing threat of Muslim extremism".

Tony Blair wants to "win the hearts and minds of young Muslims amid fears that Britain may be harbouring as many as 10,000 al-Qaeda sympathisers".

The newspaper says "radical" foreign imams will be checked on and moderate leaders will be enlisted and funded.

I can't read the Times online..all they require is £89.99 for overseas subscribers online, no less. Sad. It also gives the links to quite a few UK papers.

It would seem, from the article that the PM has a real grip on the the danger, but 'win the hearts and minds'? I fear this is neither realistic or possible.

A friend in Bromley called this morning, and we discussed everything but politics...that we do in person! :) We actually are very alike, and her Mum, who is raising 90, calls us her twins seperated at birth by an ocean. We are 3 weeks apart in age. Small world, indeed.

Happy Bank Holiday!

175 Promethea  Sun, May 30, 2004 6:18:31pm

#145 Partizaner . . .

The comparison that comes to mind, as much as "The Lord of the Rings," is the movie "Independence Day" and "The War of the Worlds." We face an alien contagion that cannot be reasoned with, co-opted, or understood. The only response is contagion is isolation and cauterization.

I find it almost laughable that the long-predicted future that would come in "The Year 2000" actually brought the future found in cheap science-fiction and fantasy novels--"DOOM" in the shape of an army of mindless killers like the Borg, the Martians, the Orcs, the parasites from Heinlein's Puppet Masters, Chuthulu, etc.

176 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, May 30, 2004 6:23:14pm
177 Promethea  Sun, May 30, 2004 6:29:45pm

#156 JohninLondon . . .

And don't forget that Blair fought the BBC right down to the wire - whatever the damage. I regard his grit on the Iraq issue as commendable - he will fight his corner on this, and he seems to be planning to say a few choice words to the leaders of "Old Europe" during the D-Day commemorations.

I'm so glad that Blair plans to stay the course and to continue to fight the BBC. I look forward to hearing his "choice words" to the French, Germans, and other weasels.

Re the BBC, you may or may not be surprised to learn that the BBC is very popular in the U.S. among those who think they are so learned and cultured (the LLL). There is something seductive about the British accent that makes a certain type of American believe everything he/she hears on the BBC. It's sick!

I hope Blair continues to fight the BBC until it becomes a real news organization and not an Islamic propaganda machine.

178 Promethea  Sun, May 30, 2004 6:45:04pm

#167 DarthMaulrulesok . . .

How much support these terrorists command among Muslims worldwide has not, as far as I know, been determined.

This is an important point. I know that I'm personally confused by this issue. Are the jihadists a relatively small minority of Muslims and is there hope that they can be contained by various yet-to-be-determined strategies? Or, do they represent a large majority of Muslims, in which case I'm a lot more ready to support violence against their religious institutions, including Mecca and Medina.

Just thinking out loud and would like to start a discussion on this point (hope this isn't a dead thread).

179 Promethea  Sun, May 30, 2004 6:50:00pm

#171 angeles . . .

As a former student of La langue and La Litterature, I would happily never eat a french fry again. Heureusement.

I tried some crosscut fries for the first time yesterday. They were great. They probably don't count as "French" fries so you can boycott, and yet not suffer. ;)

"Curly" fries probably aren't "French" either.

180 Grant Drive  Sun, May 30, 2004 6:50:36pm

God bless Israel.
God bless America.
Death to their enemies.

181 selpaw  Sun, May 30, 2004 7:37:47pm

My cable has been down until now and this is the first I was able to come back to lgf. I want to thank you Charles not only for posting this incredibly riveting piece but for shinning a most important light for all who are willing to see. You have no idea the good that you do. I feel I can speak for so many here at lgf who gain great solace from your unwavering commitment to truth in this dangerous world turned upside down. Your beacon lends us courage to fight all the harder.

182 Dahvid  Sun, May 30, 2004 7:40:28pm

#178 Promethea

How much support these terrorists command among Muslims worldwide has not, as far as I know, been determined.

Good point, it is important to recognize potential friends and allies among "muslims". I understand so little about these people, but I have the sense that many might be good people, some brain washed to hate America and Israel, under the control of a brutal regime. It is amazing to think that a small group of thugs can rule a large populace, but "history shows again and again how nature points up the folly of man" (quoted from the song Godzilla).

The ancient Persian poetry book, "The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam" was a best seller in the west for many years. Some will recall the famous verse: " A loaf of bread, a jug of wine, and thou beneath the bough..." The common and erroneous english translation was done by Fitzgerald. The verses are hauntingly beautiful and I always wondered what they meant. Well, there are two books with translations by Iranians that I just saw. One is entitled "The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam" by Ahmad Saidi, the other is by Khodi Kaviani.

The true meaning of these verses revealed by these authentic translations is awesome. According to the authors, these verses represented the feelings of common people who lived under the ancient tyranny of Islam. They spoke of drinking wine (forbidden by the religious zealots), and generally enjoying life without being forced to submit to Islam. How revealing this is. The general idea behind our being in Iraq is that when the people are freed from the oppressive tyranny, they will be happy to live peacefully. The problem is that for some reason there is a virulent force manifested in the media that wants to keep the people oppressed under a relatively small group of brutal thugs.

183 DarthMaulrulesok  Sun, May 30, 2004 7:46:03pm

Re. no. 178, Promethea:

Well, as they used to say on Monty Python and the Holy Grail: "I'm not dead yet!" So, by all means let the discussion commence.

How many Muslims actually support terrorism and consider it a current religious duty to spread the house of Islam world wide by force? Clearly, there is AT LEAST a significant minority. Terrorists requrie a steady stream of funds, that money has to come from somewhere. They need safe houses, false documents, instructors in bomb-making, hijacking, shooting, etc. We can safely assume there are substantial numbers of Muslims who support terrorism by contributing to "charities" that funnel money to terrorists. There is probably a somewhat smaller number that provides safe houses, false documents and the like.

Estimates I have seen in the media show actual terror groups with tens of thousands of members. That is significant, to be sure, but is it the equivalent of a peacetime army, that is a standard force, or does it represent a more serious effort?

Complicating this further is the fact that many terrorists live in Islamic tribal communities. These tribesmen may be actively engage in terrorism themselves but provide safe havens and will act with force to protect their guests (Pakistan comes to mind). So the terrorists are not without allies. This is important because many terrorists are not full time fighters. They may be on welfare or have an actual job during the day and go out at night to fire off a rocket or mortar and then go home.

Ralph Peters, who wrote several excellent books on terrorism and post modern warfare, summed up several distinct types of terrorists. I will try to summarize here, but you should really get his books, especially "Beyond Baghdad".

First, and most dangerous, are the true believers. These are your leaders like OBL and the kamikazes. Your CANNOT reason with them because they are acting in the name of G-D, as they understand it. Fortunatly, such people are not too numerous.

Second, you have the nationalists - they like to fight for a cause, but want their rewards in this world, not the next. Think Arafat and a lot like him. They cannot be converted but they can be deterred.

Third, and much more numerous than the first two, are the "gangbangers" (my word, not Mr. Peters). These are the people who are high performers in terrorism. They could not hold a job in the real world, but they can fire an RPG just fine. These people befefit and profit from terror, and have a lot to lose if they cannot be terrorists.

Fourth, and most numerous, are the hangers-on, the people who join because it looks like they will be on the winning side. (These are a lot of the car-swarm folks).

One approach, then, to winning against terrorists is to divide and conquer. Offer alternatives to those willing to take them, hunt down and destroy the rest. This means being ruthless if necessary against the true believers, at least.

Now, how can we get the media and LLL to understand this, short of seeing a Sarin bomb explode at the next Academy Awards?

184 NY Nana  Sun, May 30, 2004 8:03:27pm

#155 Nannette

You're right - it has to be us. We, as Jews are survivalists, although many are very cosy and comfortable in their lifestyles... but this time, the annihilators are after everyone who's not one of them... in other words if you don't believe in Shariah and radical Islam and all it entails, you're a dead man!

I think that dealing with these radical people will take radical measures, but it's a question of which country will be brave enough to make the first move... nearly all the western countries are infected with this cancer which seems to be growing stronger and stronger.

It's time the west turned around and said "ENOUGH" and for those who have demonstrated and said they want to implement Islamism into our society they should be told to leave the country.

It's time for those who like where we live to reclaim our countries...

I totally agree, but so far, almost all the West seems to be wearing blinders, as it is easier. They must wake up, or there will be no tomorrow for any of us, literally. When we read the articles that Charles posts, and see reality, we also see LLL and/or Jew hating trolls who are sitting around singing 'kumbaya', and aiding and abetting the enemy, who will still come after them, just like they would with us, given the chance.

I shudder to think of what the wake-up call might be...may HaShem help us all.

185 Dahvid  Sun, May 30, 2004 8:12:50pm

#178 Promethea


How much support these terrorists command among Muslims worldwide has not, as far as I know, been determined.

Here's an article

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

that claims that "Most American’s are unaware that the Islamic Republic of Iran is NOT supported by the masses of Iranians today. Modern Iranians are among the most pro-American in the Middle East. There is a popular revolt against the Iranian regime brewing in Iran today. I began these daily threads June 10th 2003. On that date Iranians once again began taking to the streets to express their... "

I don't endorse this as fact or fiction, just throwing it up for discussion.

186 Dahvid  Sun, May 30, 2004 8:38:23pm

#184 NY Nana

I totally agree about the kumbaya trolls, and the need to take immediate and decisive action. It is frustrating that many people disagree and the chances of decisive action both domestically and internationally seem slim for now.

The liberal media are very effective with the mass mind-controlling power of the media. So I've always wondered why there can't be an alternative. One idea is to create a newscast based upon the Debka [Link: www.debka.com...] How about a mini-series about the horrors of suicide attacks, detailing the lives of the victims. How about forcing colleges to accept pro Israel and pro American classes and events, not just the opposite. I am brain storming about how to produce shows, movies, media, etc, that will counter the left media blitz, and beat them at their own game. It has been said that the pen is mightier than the sword, I don't believe it, but a pen is all I've got.

187 twisterella  Sun, May 30, 2004 9:11:15pm

Dahvid-- we should talk! Not only is the pen mightier than the sword, but the meme is mightier than the gene! :)

188 Nannette  Mon, May 31, 2004 5:45:07am

#171 angeles

I think all the French Jews should wing it to Israel.


I couldn't agree more...

189 Dahvid  Mon, May 31, 2004 7:44:41am

#187 twisterella

Dahvid-- we should talk! Not only is the pen mightier than the sword, but the meme is mightier than the gene! :)

Twisterella, I'm listening. Are you still there?

"The moving hand having writ..."

190 NY Nana  Mon, May 31, 2004 1:05:05pm

#188 Nannette

I thought that at my age, it would be hard to surprise me...Magen David Adom and France

Israel's Magen David Adom (MDA) and the French Red Cross have signed a bilateral operational agreement, aiming to reinforce existing ties between the two national societies, improve services offered within their respective countries and to assist each other in times of need. A similar agreement has been signed with the American Red Cross. The signing ceremony took place in Paris, where MDA Chairman Maj.-Gen. (ret.) Yohanan Gur noted that the agreement reflects the personal philosophy and the aim shared by the societies: to safeguard human life and the dignity of man, and to ease suffering whilst constantly improving the availability and quality of service offered to the needy. "I consider the agreement of great importance," Gur said, "as it was signed with one of the founding member societies of the International Red Cross, and in a country where the protection of human rights is of the highest importance."

The need for such bilateral agreements is the result of an anti-Israeli policy of the International Red Cross (IRC). The IRC refuses to admit Israel's Magen David Adom into its organization, on the grounds that MDA's symbol - the six-pointed Jewish star - is not one of the IRC's approved symbols. Originally, the only approved symbol was the red cross, but after Moslem nations objected to using a cross on religious grounds, a red crescent and a red lion-and-sun (for Iran) were also allowed. Dr. Bernadine Healy, ex-President of the American Red Cross, was outspokenly against this IRC policy, writing, "The IRC's feared proliferation of symbols is a pitiful fig leaf."


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