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Troubling Presence at a Funeral

Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 6:41:33 am PDT

We’re just not serious about the war against radical Islam. Case in point, a Muslim imam with ties to many suspect individuals and groups ... invited to the Reagan ecumenical service: A Troubling Presence at a Funeral.

Patriotic Americans will always cherish their memories of Ronald Reagan’s strong and courageous leadership during the Cold War. However, his funeral at the National Cathedral may uncap different emotions. Among those the Reagan family has invited to the ecumenical service is Mohammad Magid, a D.C.-area Muslim imam with disturbing ties to suspected terrorists.

Magid, who was born and educated in the Sudan, is the Director of the All Dulles Area Muslim Society (ADAMS). ADAMS has numerous close affiliations with the main targets of “Operation Green Quest,” “the largest U.S. terror finance investigation anywhere in the world.” In March 2002, federal agents raided ADAMS’s facility in Herndon, Virginia, as part of an investigation into financial support for terrorism. Federal affidavits state that the “Grove Street addresses” (500 and 555 Grove St. in Herndon) housed more than 100 interlocking Muslim organizations, most headed by Jamal Barzinji, and these groups gave material aid to terrorists. Among those raided were several major ADAMS associates, including its chairman. Magid himself was present when federal agents raided the Herndon offices of ADAMS in March 2002.

Soon after the raid, Magid held a public meeting encouraging “community building” among the organizations investigated. Although 100 people showed up at the Sterling, Virginia, public library for the meeting, another 150 members of the overflow crowd met at ADAMS headquarters itself.

And with whom did Magid wish to build alliances? Among those invited was Kit Gage of the National Coalition to Protect Political Freedom, Sami al-Arian’s political front group. Al-Arian is the University of South Florida professor indicted for being Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s North American leader and chief financier. Wahhabi talk-show host Mahdi Bray, political advisor for the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), followed Gage. The Washington Times has described MPAC as “an anti-Semitic organization that has defended infamous terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah.”

CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad also addressed the meeting. Awad has a long history of association with extremists, both in this country and in Bosnia. He once worked for senior Hamas political leader Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook’s Islamic Association for Palestine. Awad has removed all doubt about his inclinations, telling a crowd at Barry University in 1994, “I am a supporter of the Hamas movement.” Awad helpfully told the outraged crowd in Sterling: “This is a war against Islam and Muslims. Our administration has the burden of proving otherwise.”

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166 comments

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1 jrdroll  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 4:44:17am

The Saudi delegation?

2 Necklace of shoes  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 4:49:48am

Bumper sticker.... J-DAM for A.D.A.M.

3 Steve  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 4:52:25am

OMG, How are we going to win this war???

I'm afraid we are loosing it, we are glorifying our enemy's.

4 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 4:52:45am

I see things like this and I have serious doubts about our ability to root out the Jihadi tumors in this country.

Is it going to have to come down to vigilante action?

5 Poitiers-Lepanto  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 4:52:57am

It would be nice to know exactly WHO makes these "mistakes", who checks the lists, who supervises the whole thing.
We are the people and we have the right to know, we have the right to ask these persons why they are choosing a terrorist suspect for a ceremony so important.
Does anyone know how we could get this info ?
To whom could I/we write to ask for it ?

Losing a war is just an infinite series of little mistakes and miscalculations...

I started thinking that someone powerful and well hidden wants us to lose the war...

6 Tim K  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 4:53:45am

It will be a good thing for some of the Muslims types to see how a funeral is suppose to be handled.
NO one will tip over the casket and try to rip apart the body for keepsakes.
No one will shout for the deaths of anyone. No fatwas, no undulating.
It could be a learning experience for all in the Middle east.

7 jrdroll  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 4:53:45am

OT
June 11, 2004, 1:45AM

Space station honors Reagan's space legacy
By MARK CARREAU
Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle

The international space station crew paid tribute Thursday to former President Reagan, 20 years after he told NASA to build an orbital outpost with other nations.

During a brief memorial, the Russian and American aboard the space station rang a ship's bell 40 times in Reagan's honor.
[Link: www.chron.com...]

8 mbruce  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 4:53:55am

Damn straight its a war against Islam.Its you who will have to give us a reason to allow you to continue to exist.

9 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 4:54:26am

One of these days, it will have to come down to individuals such as ourselves making the Jihadis just disappear.

10 bp sf  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 4:57:29am

Ronnie bashing begins in SF....

[Link: sfgate.com...]

11 Poitiers-Lepanto  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 4:57:50am

#4 and 9

It's not clear to me why you try to advertise a federal crime. I think you can stop now.

People doing that kind of things aren't certainly people spending hours and hours a day debating on this forum..

12 abc  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 4:58:13am

What's troubling about this?

Hitler used to make the liberal speech circuit,
back during the WWII war on blitzkreig.

No problem here.

He used to get ovations.


/you can be a liberal too

13 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 4:58:48am

These Muslim asshats are WORSE than the Original Nazis.

THESE latter-day Nazis worm themselves into the fabric of our society like parasites, benefitting from our freedoms only in the pursuit of destrotying them.

What will it take to remove these cancerous scabs?

14 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:00:48am

#11

Minority Report?

15 Thom™  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:02:15am

{sigh}

These people play no constructive role in the life of the state, why on earth would anyone want them at a state funeral?

16 abc  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:02:57am

6

no undulating.


...that was funny. No picking their nose either.

17 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:03:16am

Fellow Citizens..doesnt matter WHAT you want..you notice you are not in charge of this AT ALL. The US Govnt..Arabists in the US Govnt I should say..are DETERMINED to include these people at the hightest levels. The attitude is: These people are HERE..numereous in the world and INSIDE the US..and as long as they dont kill US...just kill those Jews..then we WILL be including them, just like any OTHER American.

This is a message sent to you..to tell you that Americans always include everyone. And a clear message to Jews..Its YOUR problem...if you dont like it..TOO BAD...

Many Jews have been watching as this message is sent to us year after year..after Klinghoeffer,, after Danny Pearl and Berg. We get the message....and for many of us the discussion is over.

If America chooses THAT over us... after all this time???? Well..

18 Thom™  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:06:06am

Oh well. I shall forget this assmonkey and watch the funeral underway on CSPAN.

19 Poitiers-Lepanto  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:06:57am

# 4 9 13 14

I am the first one here to ask for strong laws against muslim immigration and for large deportations of anyone involved with terrorism. And I am in favour of a special Oath that a muslim not in good faith could not pronounce.

This has nothing to do with advertising POGROMS.

FORCE is exactly the opposite of violence. And violence is of the weak.
We must change the public opinion until it will understand that we need vigilance and force.
All the rest is KKK.

Different would be the case if the muslims would start rioting.

20 abc  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:09:18am

13

What will it take to remove these cancerous scabs?


Leadership.

We have everything else we need, except this.

If we had leadership, we wouldn't have to resign ourselves to being attacked again.

If we had leadership, the groupthinking, enemy liberals would be of no concern.

If we had leadership, everything would be better.

Without leadership, all we have is luck and hope. Sort of like having a whore and a bitch.

But it's all we got.

21 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:12:56am

#19

"deportations of anyone involved with terrorism"

Well, first we need to define what it means to be involved with terrorism. Aren't Sami Al Arian and Nihad Awad and and Ibrahim Hooper and Jim Zogby and the rest of these Jihadi-enabling spores "involved" with terrorism? Or are we goping to have to play the free-speech game ad infinitum?

Really, what's it going to take? Leah was right. It's over. Jewish life just has very little value to the rest of the world, even in America.

22 genard  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:13:12am

There is a lot of ignorance among our leadership about the thoughts and intentions of Muslims. Old connections and friendships are hard to break. It will take years of duplicity and terrorism to wean our "leaders" and academic elites away from multi-culturalist mush.

I sure hope the Bush family is learning.

23 FreakyBoy  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:16:03am

Might as well let Clinton speak, too.

24 BCF  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:16:20am

Turns out the Reagan family hates all Muslims a whole lot less than you do. So what's the surprise?

25 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:16:29am

P..Not gonna happen. Each time something BAD happens in the US or to Americans...the spin will be..its just a MINORITY of violent people. NOT Islam,......blah blah blah

There will be no mass Deportations. There will be no closing of the boarders..Case you missed it..Bush has decided to let MORE people in..or let them stay..or let them have MORE services..or whatEVER the hell he is doing to placate his Mexican friend and big biz. Cant help just Mexican immigrants..and NOT immigrants from ALL over ISLAM.

There you are...whenever there is some big deal thing going on..we see one or another Moslem Cleric that turns out to be an advocate or supporter of KILLING JEWS and Westerners and Americans..and that sseems to be ..OK with everyone.

What ELSE message do we need? We need to maybe take the HINT. We are being told a few things by ACTIONS...Time to pay attench.

26 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:18:05am

#19 Poitiers-Lepanto

Your idea of making a special oath for Muslims which they could not make unless in good faith won't fly. Even if it did, by some miracle, pass the constitutional hurdle which it would almost surely fall flat in front of, it would then simply be defeated by the Muslim principle of al-taqiyya. Lying for the Muslim is as natural as breathing for you or me.

I would not support the sort of vigilante lynching action being advocated above, but I *do* think it's time for us to wake up to the fact that we as American citizens need to be prepared to take forceful and violent measures to protect ourselves should the need arise. Buy a gun and lots of ammo. Learn how to use it and maintain it. Learn gun safety (we don't need any blue on blue). Form local defensive militias with your non-idiotarian neighbours. Be ready to take whatever steps are necessary to defend yourself, your family, your property, and your country.

27 Poitiers-Lepanto  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:19:51am

#21 Li'l Mamzer

Sorry, I thought you were trying to troll.

No, it's not over.
We are fighting a war, a war in which the enemy is INSIDE the Country as well as outside.
The normal mistakes of a war are multiplied by 1000.

The greatest: we have not declared war, we have not suspended the Constitution for the traitors and fifth columnists.

No, people like Sami Al Arian should be tried and HANGED if found guilty.

We have a long way to go. Two generations of war, probably more.
Fasten your seat belts.
Don't ever despair when in combat, and we are in combat, all and each one of us.

28 JeffF  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:19:56am

#24 BCF

You forgot "terrorist" before "Muslims." Is it your turn to troll today?

29 WriterMom  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:20:30am

If they wanted Muslim representation they should have invited Irshad Manji.

OT: Great articles in the Post today. Ya gotta read 'em...

Caroline Glick: Managing pathologies.

and Bret Stephens: The Smug American.

I'm so proud that Brian Mulroney will be eulogizing President Reagan.

How was the meet up last night?

30 BCF  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:21:35am

Ok, the Reagan and Bush families hate terrorist Muslim's a whole lot less than you do. Is that better?

31 J.D.  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:23:00am

The House of Saud

For those looking to learn more about the financial web the Saudis have spun, the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs is holding a hearing Tuesday on terror financing, and the Saudis figure to be featured prominently.
32 WriterMom  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:23:02am

Lovely piece by Jeff Jacoby about Ronald Reagan.

33 Sarah D.  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:23:15am

OT

Iraq War Supporters Lose in European Elections

And get a load of this:

Celebrity candidates in the European campaign included Portugal's 1998 Nobel literature laureate, Jose Saramago, on the Communist Party's ticket; Mladen Rudonja, the Slovenian soccer hero whose goal got the national team into the 2002 World Cup; Slovakian former National Hockey League forward Peter Stastny; Estonian supermodel Carmen Kass, and Czech porn star Nora Baumberger (screen name Dolly Buster).

I thought I was reading about California at first.

Sarah D.

34 Poitiers-Lepanto  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:23:23am

#26 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

We just need more net to catch the fish. Punishment for violation of Oath: death, and deportation of the enlarged family and we seize all your money.
Military tribunals.
And declaration of war.

We need lots of nets, everywhere.

The second part of your message could have been written by ME.

:) :) :)

35 [Engineer]  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:26:02am

I see a way to fix a lot of the problem, but I don't think the American public is ready for it. What we do is say that Islam is not a religion, but a cult. As a cult, it doesn't have any first amendment protections. We deport all non-citizens Muslims and don’t let any more in.

36 selpaw  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:26:32am
A Troubling Presence at a Funeral.

Most troubling indeed. This need for inclusiveness irritates the life out of me. In some respects it is a mockery of the man we mourn. What I respected most about Ronald Reagan is he bowed to no one. He may have been called a politician extrodinare yet when I think of politicians bullshit most certainly comes to mind....which Ronald Reagan did not subscribe.

I sincerely doubt Ronald Reagan would have called Muslims, 'peaceful.' Matter of fact the eagerness to appeal to their sensibilities is something he would not have done. Like excluding the black sheep cousin Israel the only democracy in the middle east one who has contributed so very much to the world as an invited guest to the G-8. Enough.

G-d bless Ronald Reagan.

37 abc  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:30:14am

35

say that Islam is not a religion, but a cult.

Ban Islam. I'm for it.

What are you going to do about Mecca and Medina? Let them sit over there and design missiles? Or buy them from the Russians.

38 abc  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:31:53am

It's too bad that artillery salute isn't landing on the state department.

39 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:32:31am

#27 Poitiers-Lepanto

"Don't ever despair when in combat, and we are in combat"

We're not really in combat, and that's the problem.

If we were, Al Arian and Hooper and the rest of the MPAC/CAIR/WAMY/ISNA jihadis wouldn't be wiping their asses with 2-ply Charmin they bought at Target.

See?

40 abc  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:32:50am

That would be a tribute to Reagan!

41 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:35:09am

#34 Poitiers-Lepanto

I think what we *really* need to do is FIRST take care of our own homegrown seditionists. Start applying the treason clause in the CONSTITUTION. Round up these little freaks at the pro-terrorism rallies like they had in SF over the weekend. You carry a sign saying "We support our soldiers when they shoot their officers", then you can spend 10 years in the big house.

Free speech does not preclude the right to abuse that freedom to undermine and destroy the country, jsut as freedom of religion doesn't preclude to you the right to use your religion as an excuse to sabotage and blow things up.

Once we've done this, and cleaned out the news media while we're at it, then we can get down to the business of taking care of the terrorists themselves without having the knife in our back from the pro-terrorism activists.

Yeah, I know it'll never happen, but it would be nice.

42 Thom™  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:37:05am

Those pallbearers should get a medal for negotiating all of those steps so well.

43 Li'l Mamzer  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:38:01am

#41

"I think what we *really* need to do is FIRST take care of our own homegrown seditionists. Start applying the treason clause in the CONSTITUTION."

YES

And that includes actions and statement supporting declared terrorist groups like Hamas/Hezbollah/IJ .

44 Poitiers-Lepanto  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:39:44am

#39 LI'l Mamzer

We are in combat.
I think that without LGF and other blogs (not that I dare to compare them to LGF, G*d forbid !) we would already be five years lower into the PIT.

Everything is combat when you are in a war.


I'm listening to the funerals on the radio...
It is unfathomable, how much this Country misses a Leader like Reagan...

45 [Engineer]  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:40:04am

#37 abc

What are you going to do about Mecca and Medina? Let them sit over there and design missiles? Or buy them from the Russians.

The Saudis? They can't even pump oil without our help or maintain the military equipment they buy from us. The KSA is not about to get into a pissing match with us. It is Iran that really bothers them.

46 WriterMom  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:41:04am

There is also an amazing article by Lech Walesa in the Opinion Journal today and here are a few choice nuggets:

In the Europe of the 1980s, Ronald Reagan presented a vision. For us in Central and Eastern Europe, that meant freedom from the Soviets. Mr. Reagan was no ostrich who hoped that problems might just go away. He thought that problems are there to be faced. This is exactly what he did.
I have often been asked in the United States to sign the poster that many Americans consider very significant. Prepared for the first almost-free parliamentary elections in Poland in 1989, the poster shows Gary Cooper as the lonely sheriff in the American Western, "High Noon." Under the headline "At High Noon" runs the red Solidarity banner and the date--June 4, 1989--of the poll. It was a simple but effective gimmick that, at the time, was misunderstood by the Communists. They, in fact, tried to ridicule the freedom movement in Poland as an invention of the "Wild" West, especially the U.S.

But the poster had the opposite impact: Cowboys in Western clothes had become a powerful symbol for Poles. Cowboys fight for justice, fight against evil, and fight for freedom, both physical and spiritual. Solidarity trounced the Communists in that election, paving the way for a democratic government in Poland. It is always so touching when people bring this poster up to me to autograph it. They have cherished it for so many years and it has become the emblem of the battle that we all fought together.

47 J.D.  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:43:04am

#42 Thom™

I'll say! [not easy with a lump in the throat]
This is just such a beautiful tribute.

48 [Engineer]  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:44:27am

#42 Thom™

Those pallbearers should get a medal for negotiating all of those steps so well.

At JFK's funeral, the pallbearers were scared that they would drop it so the LT in charge found a coffin, filled it full of sand and made them spend all night carrying it up and down the steps.

49 Thom™  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:45:10am

#47 J.D.

Those steps must be slippery in the rain.

It is beautiful. Simple and dignified. Hopefully we can have one last Reagan thread, not one about a blot on the funeral.

50 grayp  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:45:30am

#38 abc

It's too bad that artillery salute isn't landing on the state department.

LOL! That's the first thing I've seen you post that I agree with.

51 Thom™  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:46:08am

#48 [Engineer]

Well, that makes good sense. I wonder what these guys did to train.

52 J.D.  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:46:39am

He's leaving Washington for the very last time.
Thank heaven we had him.

53 genard  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:48:50am

Poitiers-Lepanto,

What is the content of your loyalty oath?

I have been advocating that all citizens, immigrants and visitors swear to obey the Constitution and all laws under its purvey. I am certain that would require an amendment to impose.

Technically a Muslim could so swear without renouncing shari'a, because the shari'a requires that a believer obey ONLY Allah's Law. Refusal would be grounds for deportation.

54 JimmyTheClaw  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:49:47am

how apropriate its raining for the funeral

55 EddieP  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:51:28am

#35 Engineer

The reason Bush never mentions radical Islam as a religion is exactly the First Amendment. He calls radical islam a Political Movement, which is about as far as he can go at least until after the elections. The NYT LLL etc. etc. would have him for lunch if he said this is a war against Islam. Our Constitution specifically protects all religions.
You are correct in saying we should deport the terrorists, but as a practical matter, we can't even round up and deport all the illegal mexicans, let alone terrorists. There is no way we could have enough Immigration Officers, Prosecutors, and Judges to manage even that.
Shutting down the borders is the only way and that doesn't address the ones already here and is a long range solution at best. Regards

56 brianstien  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:55:13am

I'm watching the CSPAN stream. My roommate is downstairs, watching MSNBC. He has it just loud enough for me to recognise Chris Matthews' voice, executing his play-by-play flawlessly, no doubt.

Note to the networks: it ain't a football game, dipsh*ts.

57 RightIsRight  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:58:22am

Fox just showed a split screen with the hearse on the right and Ted Kennedy on the left.

I can't imagine two men with visions for this country that diverge so vastly.

God Speed, Gipper.

58 Poitiers-Lepanto  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 5:58:30am

#53 Genard

I am thinking about a revised version of the Oath of Allegiance (the one for the naturalized Citizens).

It has already been discussed here on LGF.

We need a wording that violates the duplicity of the islamofascists. Not easy.

And nobody is listening to LGF in the Capitol Hill anyway...

But in the future, who knows...

59 Model4  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:00:13am

Notice if you will there's no need have Bhuddist or Hindu holy men take such celebrated roles at the ceremony. So inclusiveness isn't motivating this. It's just PC dhimmitude making an unwelcome appearance at a most inappropriate time. "At times like these we are reminded of the time the prophet Muhammed was planning one of his many robberies and searching for more victims to rape in order to spread his message of peace and tolerence..."

#6 Tim K: That would be great in a very sick way to see an authentic Ummahn casket-swarm, with ululatings, small arms fire, bloody hands waving bits of gore to the cameras and screaming "Our blood and souls for you Gipper!"

60 Dman  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:02:23am

#17, so after the Rosenbergs, the Seigels, the Streisands and any number of Communist Socialist persons of the Jewish faith that live or have lived freely in America that I should think that America has chosen them over others. Your rhetoric stinks and does not help your cause.

61 [Engineer]  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:03:31am

#55 EddieP

Our Constitution specifically protects all religions.

No, it really doesn't. All it says is

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

All CITIZENS can exercise these rights, we don't have to let non-citizens.

There is no way we could have enough Immigration Officers, Prosecutors, and Judges to manage even that.

I agree, but we can, and should, change the law that gives a non-citizen a right to use our courts.

62 selpaw  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:05:10am

59 Model4

inclusiveness

I stand corrected. #36

It is as you stated:

It's just PC dhimmitude making an unwelcome appearance at a most inappropriate time.

unwelcome and innappropriate well said.

63 Model4  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:06:06am
I have been advocating that all citizens, immigrants and visitors swear to obey the Constitution and all laws under its purvey. I am certain that would require an amendment to impose.

Yeah, that's going to work great when all the terrorists revere a man who was proud to be an oath-breaker. We could make all purchasers of vehicles make an oath not to speed while we're at it.

We've got plenty of laws we're not enforcing already. It's a matter of will more than anything.

64 TalkinKamel  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:13:05am

#3 Steve

Yes, we are glorifying our enemies, and I really don't know why.

You can't effectively oppose someone when you're desperately trying to make them love you at the same time.

#17 Leah

See my comments to Steve, above, and, yes, I know what you mean! WHY are Moslems involved with terrorist groups (to say nothing of the actual terrorist groups themselves), coddled, pampered and kissed up to by the media, the State Department, etc., whereas Israel and Jewish spokespersons and organizations are brushed aside and given the"Oh-it's-just-a-small-minority-of-fantatics, give 'em a little more land for peace, blah, blah, blah" treatment?

What has Islam ever done for mankind that it rates this groveling, we-must-try-to-understand, we-must-gain-their-approval attitude? We're acting like abused children striving (uselessly) to please a tyrannical, eternally disapproving parent. (Oh, yeah, there is the oil money they're using to pay off the State Department with---but why can't we get our oil from South America, or Russia, or just drill in Alaska?)

65 Harvey (UK)  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:13:47am

[Engineer] #35
Given the demonstrations in the UK prior to the elections just held, I cannot agree that Islam is a cult. They are an overt political movement hiding behind the privelidges of a religious label, preaching the overthrow of the legitimate government and system within their host countries.

66 EddieP  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:14:18am

#35 Engineer

Of course you are correct in that non-citiens don't have the same protections nor should they. However, I believe we may have to agree to disagree on constitutional protections for religion. Perhaps my interpretation is suspect, but I think religion is specifically protected by the words "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Regards

67 selpaw  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:21:45am

A great thread to remind everyoneThe 40th President of the United States, Ronald Reagan, is being buried today - and in the Middle East, Israel has been the only country to pay him tribute as a fond friend.

How ironic that Imam stands to face an audience knowing his fellow muslims hate everything America stands for. Thinking that having this man give a prayer at the funeral of Reagan will make muslims love us is bullshit. As much so as convincing any of us his religion has 'earned' the right to be there.

68 Melissa  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:22:37am

Writer Mom (#29)

Excellent Bret Stephens piece on the Ben-Cramer book. The devout Catholic Pat Buchanan had better get himself a nice prayer rug as he aligns himself with the Muslims. Same for Ben-Cramer, but then the only faith he will have to give up is the cult of journalism.

69 selpaw  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:23:41am

TalkinKamel, Leah
See my post 36.

70 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:25:39am

TK: Yep..its the OIL and the size of the respective groups..the REAL power of the two respective groups.

Life for Jews even in America has changed and will never be the same and SOME Jews are taking the constant HINTS. We are being sent a "message" today. So what..if this guy MIGHT have some "unsavory" things in his backgroud. Thats kinda YOUR PROBLEM..JEWS. We are sick of worrying about YOU.

And so....we HAVE TO .. are being FORCED TO ....look at the reality of the situation and plan for the future. This can only get WORSE. Ive seen it get worse and worse...

**All America EVER had to do was say NO...to a Palistinian State. There IS no such people..there never needed to be a phony Palistinian State..But....because of the power of the Arabists in the US and the World..we HAVE HERE... a Palistianian State to be established and plopped down right next to Isreal. (and all that entails for the future)

This DESPITE the wishes of the GOOD AMERICAN PEOPLE.

YOU ARENT IN CHARGE, are you?

71 J.D.  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:28:05am

Nancy looks a bit more rested today.

72 selpaw  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:30:49am

I'm with you Leah

73 [Engineer]  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:31:32am

#65 Harvey (UK)

I don't disagree with you. Islam is certainly a political movement. I used the word "cult" only in an attempt to remove Islam’s protection under the first amendment. On the other hand, this is from Thomas Jefferson’s Inaugural Address:

If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve the Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. I know, indeed, that some honest men fear that a republican government can not be strong, that this Government is not strong enough; but would the honest
patriot, in the full tide of successful experiment, abandon a government which has so far kept us free and firm on the theoretic and visionary fear that this Government, the world's best hope, may by possibility want energy to preserve itself? I trust not. I believe this, on the contrary, the strongest Government on earth. I believe it the only one where every man, at the call of the law, would fly to the standard of the law, and would meet invasions of the public order as his own personal concern.
74 Thom™  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:32:03am

There's that goddamned imam in the funeral procession!

I simply cannot believe my eyes!

75 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:34:32am

Selpaw: Today..two things going on. The dignified funeral of Ronald Regan..AND ..the appearance of this "person" at this MOST important event. TROUBLING is RIGHT.

Totally agree with you.

This is a smart group here..so we need to stop the pie in the sky nonsense of mass deportations..and loyalty oaths..and crap like that..It ISNT gonna happen. Worse than that..more you try to GET to happen..the MORE Islam USES this to up their "victim" status. So get off that nonsense. Hurts more than helps..

Islam is an ALPHA Group..You all know what that means..LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of people..with LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of Countries and Resources of your own....very POWERFUL..matches the ALpha Status of the West and Christianity. Two Alphas...tippy toe around EACH OTHER. Are real careful with each other..If they start with each other, they hope to PULL BACK as soon as possible... WHY? cause they absolutely KNOW each can destroy the other. This IS the situation here even in the US.

The West...Christianity...the East and Islam..TWO big Lions on the Plains..Works alot the same way. Carve UP the territory..accomdate like crazy...lots of times stay away from eachother..and take out anger on the smaller animal.

76 WriterMom  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:36:49am

#68 Yah...maybe one of those vibrator buzzing prayer rugs.

77 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:38:50am

I cant wait till this is over for Nancy. This is too long for a woman of her age. Ill feel ok when it is over and they pour her into bed. She needs it..not just in bed on the airplane...But a really good rest.
-------------------------------------------------- --

Look who they got as the Rabbi..Kushner.."When Bad Things Happen To Good People"..I very much love that man and that book.

He says HE feels that G-d hurts when we hurt..and he doesnt want bad things to happen to us.....

78 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:41:12am

Selpaw..we're with each other..

79 thinkingmom  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:43:23am

No mass deportations or loyalty oaths, but why not stop any further immigration from adherents of the RoPMA? That is certainly within our power. The entire world is the proving ground for the idea that Islam is incompatible with anything but itself, I'm afraid.

80 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:44:55am

Maggie Thatcher--A very dear relationship. And a powerful pair too.

81 SoCalJustice  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:45:49am

Just came home about 15 minutes ago from a spot along the motorcade route (22nd and Mass Ave), where they turned up Mass to go along Embassy Row and the Naval Observatory before making a right turn onto Wisconsin to get to the National Cathedral.

It was packed with people, almost all with umbrella, who looked like mostly locals (yuppie types with young kids and dogs). As everyone can see, it's finally cool in DC with a light mist of rain coming down.

The atmosphere was very congenial and upbeat, almost carnival like. Most of these people see Presidential (and especially Vice Presidential, as this is the route that Cheney often takes from the White House to his undisclosed location and his residence at the Naval Observatory) motorcades all the time.

Obviously today was different. Very majestic.

No sight of Mahdi Bray or Jamal Barzinji anywhere.

82 Harvey (UK)  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:51:58am

[Engineer] #73
I am the first to admit that I don't fully understand the interpretations of the US constitution and it'a ammendments in all their legal connotations. To me, the word cult implies a quasi religious organisation, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some precedent for claiming protection as a cult. Political entities have no such ambiguity in my book. However I see that we are saying the same thing with different words.

Thanks for the Jefferson quote, I wonder what he would make of the situation today.

83 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:52:26am

Thinkingmom: I wouldnt put money on what you want to happen. IF our Govnt started with such new "rules" ....these groups have SO MUCH ACCESS TO WEALTH..that they would successfully fight these restrictions in the Court. There will be no END to these "fights" which they will win..depending on which Court they can fanagle themselves into.

Sorry..not a hopeful day for me.

84 papijoe  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:53:13am

Only network tv at work and it is surrounded by the front office LLL types kibbitzing about the service. I can only tolerate a few minutes at a time.
The NBC coverage just can't tear itself away from the Clintons. While everyone else was looking appropriately solemn during the hymn Jerusalem the Slick One was nodding his head with a big smirk on his face, like a Deadhead grooving to a Jerry Garcia space-jam.
I wonder if he's stoned?

85 TalkinKamel  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:53:43am

#69 Selpaw

Good comments.

#79 ThinkingMom

Yes, I'm in favor of stopping any more immigration from Moslem countries. Things such as loyalty oaths may not help our situation---but I can't see how importing more or our enemies into the country is going to do any good at all.

86 J.D.  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:55:36am

Thank you, Margaret Thatcher. That was perfect.

87 thinkingmom  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:56:13am

What a moving tribute by the gallant Lady Thatcher...

88 Ms. Andi  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:57:45am

That tribute from Lady Thatcher was absolutely beautiful.

89 Blackman  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 6:59:55am

A Troubling Presence for Islamophobics and antiMuslim bigots, perhaps.

90 J.D.  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:01:22am

Blackman - You lack any sense of timing. Go away.

91 ronnie schreiber  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:02:27am

#60 Dman:

so after the Rosenbergs, the Seigels, the Streisands and any number of Communist Socialist persons of the Jewish faith that live or have lived freely in America that I should think that America has chosen them over others. Your rhetoric stinks and does not help your cause.

It was a Jewish prosecutor who argued the case against the Rosenbergs and a Jewish judge who sentenced them to death. My guess is that with the trial in NYC, a few of the jury members were Jews as well.

I'll agree that she's not the most coherent writer, but your paleo-trolling is out of place here.

92 Thom™  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:02:39am

Let us ignore Blackman today. He isn't fit to polish Reagan's shoes.

93 thinkingmom  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:03:26am

#89:

A Troubling Presence for Islamophobics and antiMuslim bigots, perhaps.


Or maybe, just maybe, for people who have cast off their p.c. blinders and are willing to look at reality...

94 Nannette  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:04:18am

Leah and Selpaw

Think back and see that all racist bigots have started with the Jews first...

It'll happen in Europe - the Jews will be the first and the Hindus and Christians next... history DOES repeat itself...

95 WriterMom  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:04:55am

"black"man

Snore!

96 thinkingmom  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:05:32am

Okay, Thom.

97 EddieP  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:11:26am

thinking mom

Every time we want to prohibit one group or another, we run up against the First Amendment. My ancestors were Huegenots, considered a threat to the church in France. We were persecuted and emigrated first to England then to the USA.

That is one reason the ACLU is so despised, because they see the first amendment applying to all of us, not just the ones who are unpopular at any given moment in our history.

We won't stop immigration for religious reasons, because it was escape from religious persecution which was the primary reason people founded this wonderful country. We have tremendous problems with these Islamic terrorists, but even if we decided to tear up the constitution, they'd still get through. I wish I had a better and quicker solution to offer.

People may laugh, but personally I believe that the final stake will be driven through the hearts of these bastards by women. When the women of the world finally figure out what is happening, they will effect the changes we need so badly. You can't imagine the power that over 50% of the world's population can have if they put their minds and energy to it. Recent good news concerning Sharia law and women in Canada make my point. Regards

98 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:20:40am

Nanette: And you were at any time in doubt? that THE MORE THINGS CHANGE...The more they stay the same..

If you dont say NO forcefully and KEEP SAYING NO...History WILL repeat itself.

99 Charles  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:25:37am

So which one of the Michigan state government Morlocks do we have with us today? Is this "Blackman," "MichLib," or "shergald?"

The same account at the Michigan DMB has been used by all three of those nicknames.

100 V the K  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:29:14am
The same account at the Michigan DMB has been used by all three of those nicknames.

How pathetic is that?

101 logger phd  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:30:22am

I think posters like "Blackman" have a love-hate relationship similar to that of Eric Bogdonovich's listeners in Talk Radio. Of course, no one wants the same ending to occur. . . .

103 logger phd  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:31:04am

Michigna DMB = "Department of Murky Bongs"?

104 Will  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:35:45am

This notion that we can do nothing about immigration is simply nonsense. From the 1920s until 1965, we had very restricted immigration and we decided what nations immigrants could come from. The courts have no role in setting immigration quotas. They can get involved in refugee situations.

Polls for the fifteen years I've noticed have consistenently shown that about 70% of the American people want immigration laws enforded and legal immigration reduced. The problems is those 70% don't make immigration policy a vote deciding issue, whereas immigration adovates, though a small group percentagewise, they do make immigration a vote deciding issue. So, our politicians pander endlessly to them while ignoring the 70% that has, as yet, shown no inclination to vote based on the immigration policy of candidates.

This will change whenever the 70% make it clear that immigration has become a vote deciding issue for them.

105 V the K  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:37:00am

Department of Mismanagement and Budget over-runs.

I remember a joke I heard about Michigan state employees. Q. Why don't Michigan state employees stare out their windows all morning. A. If they did that, how would they fill their afternoons?

106 Gordon  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:43:35am

Charles and FrontPage, what a pair.

No Muslims allowed at Reagan's funeral. And you complain about AP and Reuters having crabbed responses to Reagan's legacy?

But then, according to you guys, radical Islam is a MUCH greater threat than the Soviet Union ever was. According to the LGF orthodoxy, Reagan should have been putting the Pershin missiles in Israel, aimed at Iran and Saudi Arabia. And Iraq. OOPS, Iraq was our ally in the 1980's....sorry.

107 selapw  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:54:06am

78 Leah
Yes, we dare to speak. I refuse to be silent. Silence is a sin even from those on our side. Silence is a killer that only produces regret.

Truth first, then politics. Ronald Reagan would agree!
We should all head the beautifully poignantly and deeply truthful words of Lady Thatcher. I look forward to reading and re-reading her words many times. There is a mighty important lesson therein.

108 V the K  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:54:32am

Then again, if Blackman/shergald/MichLib got a job there, it might well mean Department of Moronic Bores.

109 Nannette  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 7:59:22am

#106 Gordon

Reagan should have been putting the Pershin missiles in Israel, aimed at Iran and Saudi Arabia. And Iraq.


If he had, then there wouldn't be the threat of Islamist terrorist over the globe!

Your post proves that you do have lucid thoughts sometimes!

110 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 8:01:01am

Selpaw: You know ME..Im always opening my big mouth..cause like you say..we CANNOT be Silent. We tried that..it didnt work. I promised..I wouldnt be quiet..and so...Im saying it as I really think it IS.

Now..Maggie Thatcher and Ronnie. WHAT A PAIR..Just how much DID those two together ..as a couple of PALS..influence the direction of the World? LOTS...Very interesting..and very dear as well. I think it is quite dear.

111 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 8:02:07am

WOW: Listen to the Bells. Horns also?..I wonder if people will beep their horns or not. Have to see.

112 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 8:05:12am

Carrolon (is that what you call it?) Beautiful. Sort of going down the octive? Well kind of. Now going sort of UP. Now doing somethin else..Still LOVELY.

113 Model4  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 8:06:55am

#104 Will: Immigration is a voting issue for most voters. The problem is that we usually don't have candidates with different stances to choose between.

114 edy  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 8:22:37am

the jews have been dealt a blow, by the jewish aclu, in the idaho terroism case. the saudis have great support by our government, and the liberals take advantage of it.
that's probably like germany in the thirties where Hitler even got money from some rich jews.
what these liberal jews don't understand is that they are endangered also.
the jewish americans must be made to understand the threat of the moslems. by supporting them they are endangering themselves--liberal jews do not see this-not at all.

115 Will  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 8:25:21am

Model4 #113

#104 Will: Immigration is a voting issue for most voters. The problem is that we usually don't have candidates with different stances to choose between.

I disagree. I'm not talking about voting issues, but vote deciding issues, i.e., unless a candidate supports enforcing immigration laws and reducing legal immigration, they won't get your vote. And, you'll encourage and work for candidates who do support those stances.

Why do you think both parties are pandering to Hispanics and tryied to out-promise each other during the recent presidential primaries? Many minority immigrant voters will vote for candidates who favor liberal immigration, and decide their vote on that basis. Those who favor changes in immigration policy will have to start organizing and making it clear that candidates will not get their vote unless they concur.

I'm not optimistic that this will happen any time soon, but there is more stirring around the issue. But day candidates realize that they can no longer pander to immigrant groups, that it will cost them more votes than they gain, then we'll see changes in policies and enforcement.

Being the vote whores that they are, politicians can get religion on any issue, very fast, when they realize their future is office is at stake.

116 Will  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 8:33:53am

Model4

A good current example of a politician suddenly getting religion is Tom Daschle. He has a strong opponent for re-election in South Dakota this year. The last statements I heard from Daschle concerning the war in Iraq is that he supports the president and has no problems with W's policies, a change from his statements six to twelve months ago.

Of course, Bush carried South Dakota, and Daschle is now pulling back from his normal loony liberal stances to preserve his senate seat in a fairly conservative state.

117 Nannette  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 8:39:19am

#114 edy

The Jews who donated to the Nazis were the first to go... they thougt they were immune to antisemitism because they were so assimilated...

American and European Jews who support the Islamists will end up the same way.

History ALWAYS repeats itself.

118 edy  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 8:49:59am

Nanette

they may have been the first to go, but the rest went also.
those that see the danger must speak before the liberal jewish groups to make them understand that they are in danger.

119 piglet  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 8:50:15am
so after the Rosenbergs, the Seigels, the Streisands


After Einstein. Oppenheimer and other jewish scientists alerted Roosevelt to the potental of atomic weapons and worked for years to make sure that the US got them before the Nazis did. Which arguably saved 500,000 American lives.

Benjamin Segal? The capitalist/gangster that started Las Vegas, a wonderful city which hires thousands of people?

Oh, yo can do much better than Babs, nu? What about Eve Ensler, who visited both arab bomb victims and the bombers families? Feh!


120 Logic  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 8:53:16am

#35 [Engineer]

I'd say that Islam meets just about ALL the criteria of a cult, according to THIS!

121 Nannette  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 9:09:05am

#118 edy

those that see the danger must speak before the liberal jewish groups to make them understand that they are in danger.


There's none so blind as those who do not see... and it's true of the liberal Jews who honestly think that nothing will ever happen to them...

122 Baldy  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 9:09:12am

I was watching the news, and heard an imam was going to be there. I must admit I wondered why. It's all bewildering to me.

OT: Did anyone watch the made-for-TV movie "Meltdown"? It was on FX last night. I watched it & was surprised the terrorists were Muslims. Wait. No they're not. It was an act, the terrorists were US servicemen (except for one who was "turned" in Pakistan, and really did plant bombs) who got cancer from depleted uranium in Afghanistan, and were told to let Al-Qaida get away, so as not to upset Pakistan, and were mad, and tried to warn the US about what could happen. The nuke plant had a Mulsim engineer (good guy), who told the "terrorists" that terrorism was against Islam. Then, as the commandos stormed the complex, they shot the Muslim engineer, and the fake Muslim terrorists, so that the public would not know the truth. So, basically, this darn movie said Bush is not protecting America (at the end, their was a quote from the "President" that told people to live their lives, to shop...)

123 jrdroll  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 9:09:18am

#120

The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.


Sounds like the New york Times;)

124 Q  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 9:17:43am

Nannette (#109):

Your post proves that you do have lucid thoughts sometimes!

Only in spite of himself.

125 reader  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 9:31:26am

I'm don't know of a single genocidal war or act of genocide committed by Muslim hoards that those so guilty have apologized for. I'm talking about events that cover the much longer pre-colonial period as well as during the much shorter colonial period and after it, genocide which by definition was often directed against non-combatants, including women and children. This fact alone should tell you everything you need to know about Islam.
Again, I say where are the Muslims protesting against the treatment of dhimmi in their countries? How about against terrorists and terrorist organizations worldwide? Most Muslims in America, at least that I've met, are doing very well. If they want to carry the mantle of victimhood, they better start by brushing up on their history.

126 Colt  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 9:34:52am

#122 Baldy

Sounds like the second series of 24.

Muslims want to attack US? Sure, but the real enemy is BIG OIL. They're the ones arming them, to give the US an excuse to invade 'the Middle East'. All of it. And then annex it. And to make it more true to life, they give oil executives and other traitors Jewish names. Oh, and the Saudi intelligence agent is one of the good guys, just like Jack, only Arab.

Fucking TV people...

127 Colt  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 9:36:02am

#106 Gordon

Charles and FrontPage, what a pair.

No Muslims allowed at Reagan's funeral.

Er, no. Maybe keep the imams with links to terror away though.

128 Blackman  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 9:39:22am

#99, Charles

Wrong. Blackman and MichLib are one and the same. Shergald is not quite. You lost the cream of intellectual liberals when you banned him and I don't think you could get him back now even if you begged. He has gone on to better things, blogs, I guess.

129 Colt  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 9:43:21am
Blackman and MichLib are one and the same.

Excellent. Banning offence.

130 Charles  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 9:48:33am

Colt: I keep hoping one of these robots will say something idiotic enough to deserve a spot in the rotating titles, but so far it's just the same old dreary crypto-liberal neo-fascist cant.

131 EE  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 9:55:35am

There were Muslim foreign leaders at the funeral. The camera showed a number of Muslims from foreign countries with familiar faces, including Abudula II of Jordan, Karzai, and others.

Nothing troubling to me about that. It's a state funeral, which is a state event.

Bringing in a local Islamist seems more domestically political than anything else, and I wonder why it is so difficult to cultivate, recognize, promote, elevate and invite Muslims who are more moderate.

There is also a war going on for the soul of Islam, and it is better that we know which side we should be on.

132 God  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 9:55:58am

#130, Charles

That's nasty stuff coming from a one flaw nice guy like you.

133 zulubaby  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 9:58:41am
You lost the cream of intellectual liberals when you banned him

If that's the best the liberals have to offer ...

He has gone on to better things, blogs, I guess.

G-d but you're a wanker. Did you weep while typing that?

134 reader  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:02:23am

#122 Baldy

I watched a little bit of it, but tuned out once I saw the spectre of moral equivalence emerging. How many more 9/11's do we and the rest of the world have to endure to put up with this moral sludge?

I also recently saw the tail end of a British tv show about a Muslim suicide bomber, a teenage boy, who was attempting to blow himself up in a crowded schoolyard somewhere in London. There was a Muslim police officer imploring him not to do this, saying that the Prophet would not allow this, and something about how the Prophet had to fight against great injustice in the world. The boy eventually wondered off away from the crowd, then blew himself up. I wanted to blow up my tv or at least fire off a letter to the offending LLL producers. Enobling Islam and especially Muhammad has got to stop. It has to be taken out of the storyline.

135 WriterMom  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:02:43am

More like sour cream.

136 Blackman  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:05:13am

You can never stop appreciating Gorbachov, the other side of what was a collaboration and history I think will show that to be the case. If Gorby had not been a peacemaker, Reagan's legacy would have been empty lesson in how to make the rich, richer. Some of his remarks at the funeral,

"Reagan, said Gorbachev, 73, was "an extraordinary political leader" who decided "to be a peacemaker" at just the right moment -- the moment when Gorbachev had come to power in Moscow. He, too, wanted to be a peacemaker, so "our interests coincided." Reagan's second term began in January 1985; two months later, Gorbachev was elected general secretary of the Soviet Communist Party.

But if he had warm, appreciative words for Reagan, Gorbachev brusquely dismissed the suggestion that Reagan had intimidated either him or the Soviet Union, or forced them to make concessions. Was it accurate to say that Reagan won the Cold War? "That's not serious," Gorbachev said, using the same words several times. "I think we all lost the Cold War, particularly the Soviet Union. We each lost $10 trillion," he said, referring to the money Russians and Americans spent on an arms race that lasted more than four decades. "We only won when the Cold War ended."

137 Charles  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:06:30am

Why am I not surprised that God Blackman is a fan of Mikhail Gorbachev? On the Michigan taxpayers' dime, no less.

138 V the K  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:07:12am
Blackman and MichLib are one and the same. Shergald is not quite.

Isn't it just precious when little kids talk about their imaginary friends?

"And and shergald... he's the cream of the intellectual liberals ... and he lives on the moon... with Superman ... and a giant ...and... he gave me Oreos and said I could stay at his house whenever I wanted... and and then he bought me presents and said Bush was Hitler... and and then we played football against the teletubbies ... and I won..."

139 papijoe  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:09:18am

#128 Blackman

Shergald is not quite. You lost the cream of intellectual liberals when you banned him and I don't think you could get him back now even if you begged.

The rending of clothes and gnashing of teeth should start, um, real soon, I'm sure...

140 Charles  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:09:42am

By the way, Gorbachev was no reformer, and Blackman's attempt to portray him as such is deeply dishonest. "Gorby" had to be dragged kicking and screaming into his grudging reforms; if not for the strength of purpose shown by the Reagan administration and the constant economic and military pressure, the Soviet Union would exist today.

141 papijoe  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:12:45am

#136 Blackman

Gorby was good sport, but the best we can say is he lost with grace. If you want to make him your role model, mazel tov.

Had Reagan not come along, Blackman would have been the neighborhood stool pigeon for he commissars.

142 V the K  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:14:16am

Here's the thing about dishonest intellectual liberals.

Reagan had little to do with the fall of the Soviet Union. He just happened to be there when it happened (at the end of his presidency).

But...

9-11 was all Bush's fault when it happened (at the beginning of his presidency).

143 Colt  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:24:42am

#130 Charles

Blackman is a good contender for a comment like that...

144 Blackman  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:26:06am

History is there for all to read, and while it may vary with the historian, facts are what they are:


On 11 March 1985, 54-year-old Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev was elected the new general secretary of the Communist Party. Following in the footsteps of such past rulers as Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Stalin, and Brezhnev, Gorbachev inherited a stagnating economy, an entrenched bureaucracy, and a population that had lived in fear and mistrust of their previous leaders. Gorbachev's first actions were to shut down the production and sale of vodka and to ardently pursue Andropov's anticorruption campaign; one of the first to go was Leningrad party boss Grigory Romanov.

Perestroika

On 25 Feb. 1986, the 27th Party Congress endorsed new party programs and changes in the selection methods of officials and elected a new central committee. No other Soviet leader in history had consolidated power in the Politburo as quickly as Gorbachev. In 1986, he introduced the radical reform policies of perestroika (restructuring), demokratizatsiya (democratization) and glasnost (openness) that have now become household words. Gorbachev emphasized that past reforms hadn't worked because they didn't stress the "involvement of the people in modernizing and restructuring the country." Perestroika implemented more profit motives, quality controls, private ownership in agriculture, decentralization, and multicandidate elections. Industry concentrated on measures promoting quality over quantity; private businesses and cooperatives were encouraged; farmers and individuals could now lease land and housing from the government and keep the profits made from selling produce grown on private plots: hundreds of ministries and bureaucratic centers were disbanded. A law was passed that allowed individuals to own small businesses and hire workers as long as there was "no exploitation of man by man." In the campaign for demokratizatsiya, open elections were held. Glasnost let truths surface from the Stalin and Brezhnev years.

Integrating The Russian Character When Gorbachev came to power, people were instilled with a lack of incentive and morale, and a fear of expression that carried over from the difficulties of past decades. An entire generation had led a two-faced life-one face for the state and the other for themselves. For the first time in decades, Gorbachev worked on integrating the Russian character. Andrei Sakharov and other political prisoners were released from internal exile. (After winning the 1975 Nobel Peace Prize, Sakharov, the physicist and human-rights activist ,was banished for nearly seven years to the city of Corky. He died in Moscow on 14 Nov. 1989.) One hundred Soviet dissidents from 20 cities were allowed to form the "Democratic Club," an open political discussion group. Glasnost swept like a tidal wave through all facets of Soviet life.

For the 40 million Russian Orthodox and people of other religious beliefs, Gorbachev stated that "believers have the full right to express their convictions with dignity." On 1 Dec. 1989, Gorbachev became the first Soviet leader to set foot in the Vatican. In a historic meeting with Pope John Paul II, Gorbachev promised to open diplomatic relations with the Vatican and pledged that the government soon would pass a law guaranteeing freedom of religion for all believers. In one of his speeches in Rome, Gorbachev expressed: "We need spiritual values; we need a revolution of the mind. . . . No one should interfere in matters of the individual's conscience.

"Christians, Moslems, Jews, Buddhists, and others live in the Soviet Union," he said. "All of them have a right to satisfy their spiritual needs-this is the only way toward a new culture and new politics that can meet the challenge of our time."

Read the rest at:
[Link: www.russia.net...]

145 Colt  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:26:19am

#131 EE

I wonder why it is so difficult to cultivate, recognize, promote, elevate and invite Muslims who are more moderate.

Hmm...

146 Colt  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:30:18am
Glasnost let truths surface from the Stalin and Brezhnev years.

Much like Khrushchev let truths surface about Stalin's era. No truths on atrocities in Lenin's time, though. Lenin brought in the Gulag system and the Cheka. Stalin was a nut, but he learned from his predecessor.

147 papijoe  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:32:24am

#144 Blackman

Nice source of history there, Young Pioneer.

Look what happened when I tried another link

nyet

148 reader  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:36:14am

(#131) EE

I'm not so convinced Islam has a soul or will even be able to find one. My thoughts are more aligned with Muslim apostates, that when it comes to Islam, the choice inevitably comes down to being Muslim or being a human being. Islam is the most unspiritual "religion" I've ever seen. Even its heaven is the very definition of carnality. Hardly transcendence.

149 TalkinKamel  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:36:34am

OT---if Shergold was the cream of intellectual liberals, I'd hate to see what the skim milk's like! (Maybe it's "Blackman"/Michlib.?)

:>)

#110---Leah

You're right. If we're silent, we're dead!

/Fritzie, the unsilenced, still-talking Camel.

#134 Reader

You know, I think I saw that same British T.V. show, and it was, indeed, annoying.

As I recall (it's a long time since I've seen it, and I didn't record it), the British investigator is this uncertain Weenie, while the Moslem is dashing and clever, always knows the right thing to do, and delivers self-righteous lectures to the weenie-British guy along the lines of You just see my country as some Arabian Nights fantasy, with dusky maidens and genies, DON'T you, you intolerant, culturally insensitve person, you---while the weenie just sits there, looking apologetic. And, of course, the kid blows himself up at the end, and there's all this talk about "It's not real Islam!" Whereas, of course, Mo would probably have been urging the poor kid to go KA-BOOM and kill as many infidels as possible, and---and----ARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH!

I think it just goes to show that the British are, alas, still far too strongly under the spell of the T.E. Lawrence mystique, and the romace of the Middle-East. . .

/And Fritzie the Talking Kamel rides off into the sunset, as a scratchy move soundtrack of "Lawrence of Arabia", plays in the background.

150 nonic  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:44:32am

#35 Engineer

I see a way to fix a lot of the problem, but I don't think the American public is ready for it. What we do is say that Islam is not a religion, but a cult. As a cult, it doesn't have any first amendment protections.

Why do you think that? That a "cult" has no First Amendment protection? Can you substantiate that in some way? '

Not trying to be a pain in your ass--- just real intrigued.

Because I seem to recall a Supreme Court case that said that any set of beliefs that a person, even one person by himself, claims is his religious belief, entitles him to First Amendment protection of his right to exercise.

151 papijoe  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:49:53am

Don't turn around, oh oh oh!
It's Blackman the Commie Clown, oh oh!
He cuts and pastes
in a THC fog
We can only pray
he finds another blog, la la la

Alles klar, Herr Kommissar

Ja ja ja ja ja.........


/Falco

152 Blackman  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 10:51:32am

V the K,

No one is belittling Reagan's role in the demise of Soviet Russia by indicating that Gorbachev was way ahead of him in introducing reforms and that the fall would never have happened without him. I don't think that Charles is correct in his surmise that Gorbachev reformed Russia reluctantly. I don't know what his KGB background was, but he was certainly a decent human being who happened to rise to the position of secretary general at a critical moment of history.

I know that Reagan just died and he is being mourned by Republicans and nonRepublicans alike so that this is perhaps not a good time to reevaluate his presidency.

153 Charles  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 11:04:41am

Gorbachev was quite clear that his job was to make the Soviet Union stronger, and to build up its military. The reason why the Politburo turned over command to him in 1985 was because Gorbachev promised "renewed confidence in the Party." His goal was to preserve Communism, not to tear it down. A case can be made that his reforms helped destroy the Soviet system from within -- but that was never his intention, and no one was more surprised when the house of cards collapsed and he was swept out of power.

154 papijoe  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 11:27:26am

#153 Charles

Pearls before swine, Charles...

Blackman has no doubt gone out for an afternoon doobie break with shergald.

155 WriterMom  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 11:44:13am

papijoe LOL!

156 logger phd  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 12:19:45pm

Recall also that Gorbachev was still putting troops into Afghanistan. Only when he knew that Reagan was not bluffing did he fold (to overuse poker parlance).

157 Colt  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 12:25:28pm

#153 Charles

A case can be made that his reforms helped destroy the Soviet system from within -- but that was never his intention, and no one was more surprised when the house of cards collapsed and he was swept out of power.

Yep. Liberalise the economy so we can pay for the hardware, but don't compromise our power.

Only problem is, once you put a hole in that dam...

And a guy trying to bring down the USSR wouldn't ally himself with the KGB/Politburo hardliners in 1990/1.

158 V the K  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 12:32:48pm

Bottom Line: Does anyone really believe that if Jimmy "Malaise" Carter, Walter "we're gonna tax their asses off" Mondale, or Ted "Give me back my car keys, I'm fine" Kennedy had been president instead of Reagan that the Soviet Union would have collapsed when it did... or even at all?

159 Colt  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 12:35:18pm

#158 V the K

Ted "Give me back my car keys, I'm fine" Kennedy

LOL!

And 'no'.

160 zulubaby  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 12:35:55pm
Ted "Give me back my car keys, I'm fine" Kennedy

LOL!!

161 TalkinKamel  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 1:25:50pm

#156 Logger phd

. . . And why is it that the US always gets blamed for not doing more for Afghanistan, while Russia---and Gorby---get off scott free with the LLL press?

/What? Blame that cute Commie premier, with the whatjamajobber on his little bald head?

/Channeling a dementedly besotted LLL.

162 DP111  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 2:07:28pm

I note that many are now advocating the expulsion of Muslims from the West as the only way to save the West. Agreed, as this is the only way to save civilisation but politically impossible. The long-term future for our civilisation is bleak, as Muslim populations grow remorselessly. Soon enough and possibly within our lifetime, we are likely to see Bosnias, Kashmirs, Lebanons etc breaking out in the West. There is no doubt in my mind that this is going to happen.
So the question is how???

Armed vigilantsim will not work as the forces of the state will be against vigilantism. Besides for it to have any chance of success, it will require political organisations that provide political cover and hamstring the forces of the state. Muslims in America have that in plenty but not those who oppose them.

Before one begins to look at options one needs to bear in mind is, that Islam is a public space religion. By this I mean that it operates in the public doiamin and not in the private sphere as all other faiths do.

So what needs to be done is to make the practise of Islam in the public space increasingly difficult in the West. Thus the call to prayer becomes an affront and violation of the secular state. A small step but nevertheless, it indicates that occupation of the public domain is not in concordance with the separation of state and religion.

Muslims have to practise their faith in the public domain, constantly confronting other faiths and cultures. If they cannot, then they are not practising Islam. The ones who have to do so will leave of their own accord and the ones who dont, will for all practical purposes, leave Islam.

Denmark and France are taking the first tentative steps in attacking Islam at its core and along secular lines. Neither can be accused of waging a religious war. They may be accused by Muslims of such, but the rest of the population in the West will not see it that way. That is important.

This is necessarily a long term strategy but it can be implemented, as the US and most of the West, are secular societies by constitution and law.

163 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 2:12:08pm

Piglet..I say..WHERES...BUGSY when we need him. Im all FOR a couple of Bugsys now. After Danny Pearl and Berg..bring ON the Benny Seigels.

Luckily ...we have some tough street Jews now. As this is shaping up in the US..(look at France) it may come a time where we need someone to CALL. SHOCKING? TOO BAD.

164 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 2:15:16pm

TK: Must have been the ONLY person in the movie theater that wanted Lawrence to LOSE. E gad...So totally PHONY. Bunch of ROMANTIC BALONEY.

165 Leah  Fri, Jun 11, 2004 2:21:19pm

Blackman..Seriously..stop making up fairy stories about Gorbechov. What CHAS..said is what happened.

This guy MIGHT be the LUCKIEST Russian that ever lived. Fucked up big time. TOTALLY lost the USSR....and everybody just PRETENDS that it was what he was after in the first place. This guy was NEVER AFTER dismantling Communism..He just totally MESSED UP.

This remains a rather charming , socially adept,good looking (in the Rus way) Communist--that did a rotton job. Geeze

166 Beagle  Sat, Jun 12, 2004 9:54:53pm

If we are going to discuss Gorbachov, how does Boris Yeltsin get left out? It was Yeltsin who forced the hand of Gorbachov and brought real pressure on the Communists, at great personal risk.

The assault on the White House (in Russia) in 1993 may have changed Yeltsin for the worse, but before that he was the major player within the Soviet Union who brought it down.
Short summary

From his television show in which was highly critical of Communism (when he was one), eventually walking out on the CP, bravery on the tank, and his truly democratic election, he dwarfed Gorbachov -- even when loaded.

Gorbachov deserves credit for not being Andropov or Brezhnez, but that's not a ringing endorsement. Glasnost and perestroika were important, but mere band aids on a failing system. Yeltsin did the heavy lifting.


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