I was just having a conversation with my neighbor about this. He believes that we know where OBL is. I'm going to print this out and give it to him.

Sarah D.

I like good news.

#2 bigel:

Did you catch the "Drinking Rules Thread"?

You were mentioned...

#2 bigel

Do you understand how much of a joke you have become around here?

Sarah: I also believe we know where Osama is -- under about 2000 tons of pulverized rubble in Tora Bora, squished so flat and buried so deep that no one will ever find him.

A fitting end for a foul creature that dealt the same fate to so many.

#6 Charles
You and I agree 100%, he's a DNA stain in a pile of rubble in a former cave.

I suspect that the recent attempts against Musharraf’s life might be a motivating factor.

Charles: "This can't all be for show."
Sure it can be unless somehow Bush has got something really lethal on Musharraf.

#6 Charles

I also believe that he's dead but I wish we had some irrefutable proof...if only to stick under John Kerry's nose.

#9 bigel

Hell, even Evariste mentioned that he had essentially come around to my view of Europe, and he started out as one of my biggest critics.

Show me please. I doubt it.

I fervently hope you are right Charles.

OT

Many of you are aware of my trials and tribulations with my LLL professors and fellow students. Recently I told you all about being asked as a class (by a student giving an anti-war speech) to raise our hands if we agreed on the war in Iraq. I was the only one who did.

I decided to find out what some Iraqi's had to think about that. I emailed about ten Iraqi bloggers the following note:

Hello Iraqi bloggers! I am emailing several of you to ask for your help. I know how busy you all are, but your replies would be very appreciated. In a college course I am taking, a fellow student asked all of those who agreed with the war and with Americans being in Iraq to raise their hands. I was the only one who did. I'm curious about what you would say to these people, who believe that we are in Iraq only for the oil, and that it was all President Bush's lies that got us there. They believe that we shouldn't be losing our young men and women in a war that is none of our business. They say that the Iraqi's don't want us there and that things are worse now than they were before. I told them to read the news, and not just CNN and ABC, and to get out there and read what the Iraqi's are actually saying. I don't think that they will, which I why I'm writing to you. What would you like to say to these people? Sincerely,

Sarah D.

I have received several replies, but the one I wanted to share with you all was from Fayrouz:

Hi Sarah, College students tend to be against any type of wars. It's an age thing. I think I was that way 20 years ago. As Zeyad says ""It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into." quoting Jonathan Swift.
You could read Liza's letter to Faiza at [Link: jarrarsupariver.blogspot.com...] . Liza is having a similar argument as yours with people who were against the war. I don't think it'll help with everyone. But it may change someone's mind. You could also print a list of Hollywood movies revenue and compare it to Iraq's budget. That will give them an idea on why America doesn't need Iraq's oil. Jeffery, I included you in this e-mail as I used the post from your blog to help Sarah.
Fay

Check out the link he sent. I hope that this Lisa from NY is and LGFer! She did a wonderful job.

If this has been posted before, my apologies.

Sarah D.

#12 Paul:

I am guessing here, but the point may be not to prove anything, but to win.

If he is proven dead, he is a martyr, resulting in swarms. If he is captured, well, panties on the head. If he falls into the black hole, it's all good.

Well it's a good start, but according to Al Reuters, Pakistan was only attacking "militants" and "guerillas." When Pakistan goes after terrorists, then we'll know they're serious.

Say, does anyone know the way to the drinking thread? Just wondering.

I don't know that bin Laden is alive but I'd still like proof that he's dead.

Errr, correction for #14

I meant, the link SHE sent!

Sarah D.

It was Bala Ambati that made me mistrust Musharraf.

Where is RWC?

Bin Laden loved video tapes too much. If he were alive, he'd be hamming it up to rub in our faces.

Now Al Quaeda has Zarkawi and others to carry on. Take them out too, and every son of a camel's ass that wants to step up to the plate.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings for some of these "reporters" from Al Jiz and other networks to get waxed for being a conduit for the terrorist propaganda machine. Screw em all!

#20 zulubaby

I'm right here girly girl :-)

ummm, for a little bit.

#9 bigel

o tell me, Engineer, what do YOU really think of Europe?

One- I think they have the same problem we do with the media.

Two - They have far more Muslims than we do.

Three - More non-Muslim Europeans are anti-Semitic than Americans are, but not a majority.

Four - The EU, with France in the lead, see more commercial advantage in dealing with the Arabs than they do with Israel.

Five – Because of the media and the LLL leaders they have, they blame Israel for the West Bank and Gaza problem.

Six - The EU, again with France in the lead, is trying to become more important in the world than the U.S.

Now, #2 & 4 are going to bite them real bad. The outcome is not clear, but it isn't going to be nice.

There are lots of problems there, but nothing that warrants killing all of them.

Besides, as I have explained to you many times, Israel does not have the ability to do what you want and if France thought they were going to try, France would wipe Israel from the map before a single rocket was fired.

Face it Bigel, it is safer for a Jew to live in Europe than in Israel.

#21 PostalWorker

Bin Laden loved video tapes too much. If he were alive, he'd be hamming it up to rub in our faces.

I agree. It might be that he is very sick and doesn't want that known, but it has been too long. If he was that sick, it would have killed him by now.

RWC, hi :-) We'll have to talk later, I think.

cool.

I wonder if the left will brand President Musharraf as a war monger?

#24 [Engineer]

Bin Laden is just one man. I hope he is dead, but there are hundreds like him out there. They aren't that hard to spot, because they mouth off every Friday, writing checks that their asses can't cash. So they have their jihadists do their dirty work for them.

The solution is simple, cleaner than Bigel's and way cheaper too. We have to start cutting heads, it's the only way. While we waste time gassing the UN, they are killing our people. Where are the protesters? Shouldn't they be protesting the totally unpeaceful, murderous acts in Saudi? The steps to the Saudi Embassy should be flooded with pissed off Americans.

#23 [Engineer]

Besides, as I have explained to you many times, Israel does not have the ability to do what you want and if France thought they were going to try, France would wipe Israel from the map before a single rocket was fired

Did you ever consider that the nukes and/or biological weapons are already deployed in France?

It's a balacing act that Islamic dictators never pursue to victory because they're terrified of being charged with religious treachery by the Islamo-fascists.

So whenever AQ and the other Islamoids get too feisty inside Moslem countries by killing Shi'ites or foreigners who run their country, the local dictators beat up on AQ a bit to demonstrate their clout. But never really crush AQ.

So we get lots of military spectacle with minimal casualties. Remember the last Paki military campaign? We heard daily reports of the "imminent capture" of major Islamo-fascists and the destruction of a major terror base, neither of which materialized.

#28 Mojo Jojo

Did you ever consider that the nukes and/or biological weapons are already deployed in France?

Did you ever consider that is an act of war?

Did you ever consider that the nukes and/or biological weapons are already deployed in France?

Whaaat?

Engineer: ...if France thought Israel were going to try, France would wipe Israel from the map before a single rocket was fired.

Mojo Jojo: Did you ever consider that the nukes and/or biological weapons are already deployed in France?

Very likely. And not just Israel. The Frogs have made themselves a major target by trying to punch above their weight on the global stage. They're pissing off a lot of folks, despite W's continuing declarations of friendship with the pond hoppers.

#30 reaganite

Did you ever consider that is an act of war?

It's also an act a war to fund proxy terrorist organizations & to fund extreme left wing groups in order to undermine a
legitimate democratically elected government. Which the EU, which France as a member of, is doing to Israel.

#28 Mojo Jojo

Did you ever consider that the nukes and/or biological weapons are already deployed in France?

First of all, as Reaganite said, that is an act of war. No sane country would try that, they could get caught moving the first one. Second, that would not save Israel. France was part of the nuclear force against the USSR and, like us, they still operate those subs.

Second, Israel is a sane and moral country. It is not going to use nuclear weapons against someone who is not a military threat. France isn't going to attack Israel first. They may do a lot that is harmful, but they will not attack.

#34 [Engineer]
Thanks, absolutely no reason for me to reply to Mojo Jojo. Well said.

#33 Mojo Jojo

It's also an act a war to fund proxy terrorist organizations & to fund extreme left wing groups in order to undermine a legitimate democratically elected government.

No it is not. That is how nations play the Great Game.

Is Reaganite still married? If not, I want dibs on him... :)

Fine man you are Reaganite, and thank you...

Sojourner

Charles, in all probability Osama is dead, either from cave squishing, or from renal disease. If the cave did not get him, the progressive kidney failure has surely done for him.
His followers work very hard to keep the image of him alive as the generous karim, the hero who would sacrifice his camel-mare for the tribe. It sells jihaad.

The problem with all of this is that Musharraf can bomb all the camels and huts in the NWFP he wants, just to put on a good show for Western cameras, without actually doing anything concrete to fight terror. The realy base for Islamist recruitment and fund-raising is not in the northwest, but in Karachi, Lahore, and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, and Musharraf has done absolutely nothing to crack down on the camps and groups that operate in those areas. What good does it do us if he cracks down on terrorists in one part of the country if at the same time he arms and funds terrorists in the rest of the country?

Besides, even if Musharraf really is committed do fighting the Islamists, his hands are somewhat tied because many officers in his army support the jihadis (article is from Frontpagemag.com)

#37 Sojourner

Is Reaganite still married? If not, I want dibs on him... :)

My 8th annual "divorce party" is August 5th!

;-Þ

#36 [Engineer]

No it is not. That is how nations play the Great Game.

I guess you would have no problem if Israel supplied weapons & training to the Corsicans to blow things up in France?

I wonder how Jacque Chirac & his fellow Frogs would react?

Mojo Jojo: It's also an act a war to fund proxy terrorist organizations & to fund extreme left wing groups in order to undermine a legitimate democratically elected government.

Engineer: No it is not. That is how nations play the Great Game.

You think subversion of democratic nations by other democratic nations is the Great Game? Do you know what you're inviting?

#12 Paul

I also believe that he's dead but I wish we had some irrefutable proof...if only to stick under John Kerry's nose.

We never had irrefutable proof that Hitler was dead. Just a couple of eye witnesses with ulterior motives. The Russians hauled off the blackened corpse and autopsied it in secret. The remains were later burned and scattered (70's I think). We had no idea until after the KGB records were opened in 1993.

If the media and intelligence services were as gullible then as now we would have been subjected to 40 years of 'Hitler tapes' and news releases. The only acceptable proof that OBL is toast (short of a full carcass) will have to come from the lips of John Kerry on Jan, 23 2005. That will convince the mainstream media even if OBL is simultaneously live on Jerry Springer.

#40 Reaganite,

Where and when, Master? :)

Sojourner...

#44 Sojourner

Where and when, Master? :)

LOL, decade or two?

[You think subversion of democratic nations by other democratic nations is the Great Game? Do you know what you're inviting? ]

Democratic or not, the game is called International Politics and Diplomacy. It's the most brutal game there is and it has been going on since Neaderthal times on different levels.

We support groups in other countries that we feel will benefit us. Other countries do the same. This isn't about subverting a Democracy per say, as much as *any* government that presents a real threat to our security.

I prefer the old way of war, where you go fight it out among professional troops. Deliberate targeting of civillians amounts to an act of TOTAL war against a people. We are well within our rights to overturn any regime that supports terrorism. IMO we should withdraw through Syria and Iran if we leave Iraq, leave behind a trail of freedom and a chance at rebirth.

OT

The Making of A Mid-East Conspiracy: Nicholas Berg Was Not Beheaded

Like many other conspiracy theories told in the Middle East, this one too will likely gain acceptance as time goes by.

Sarah D.

46 PostalWorker.."[You think subversion of democratic nations by other democratic nations is the Great Game? Do you know what you're inviting? ]"

"This isn't about subverting a Democracy per say, as much as *any* government that presents a real threat to our security."

I agree with the PW'er...in the old days the obligations between allies was clear...today this no longer applies...our alleged "allies" France being the perfect example, do everything to subvert and sabotage us...IMO..they are our enemies...if you believe the exception proves the rule,israel is the perfect example...look at all of the worlds democracies and with the excdeption of the US and Britain,which wouldnt give their left ball to get rid " of that shitty little country" Some allies

Phooey! Find a good man and he's taken or otherwise occupied...

Ah well, still love you Reaganite!!

What a man, what a man, what a mighty good man!

What a mighty mighty good man!

:)

Soj

#47 Sarah D.

From your link:
[Other questions brought up by the Arab bloggers include: Was Berg used to carry out the bombings that Al-Zarqawi was accused of? Did the U.S. set the killing up to save Bush's standing in the upcoming elections? One person wrote "If you thought that the Americans could not possibly go that far … remember the black history of the CIA … and remember who killed the President of the U.S. John Kennedy?" Another wrote, "Since Berg visited several countries in the world, he could have been a Mossad agent, and the Mossad wanted to get rid of him..." ]

Wow they run through the whole gauntlet of conspiracy theories with that one. I guess the only plausible thing to believe is that Berg was actually an alien from Seti Alpha 6 and came here to get even for us stranding Khan there.

The rules of engagement between us and our enemies is clear...however,The rules of engagement between us and our "allies" is IMO going to be a major factor in our future strategy...think Saudi Arabia,France,Germany Pakistan etc

www

Ted: "in the old days the obligations between allies was clear...today this no longer applies...our alleged "ally" France being the perfect example, do everything to subvert and sabotage us...IMO..they are our enemies..."

I agree that France has become our enemy and on a global scale (though try and find a US official to do anything in response, even acknowledge it).

But you're saying it's fine and dandy if we worked to overthrow Chirac's government through whatever subversion we can work. And they're free and clear do the same to Israel. But Israel isn't free to do the same to France.

#23 Engineer

Besides, as I have explained to you many times, Israel does not have the ability to do what you want and if France thought they were going to try, France would wipe Israel from the map before a single rocket was fired.

The French are ... uhhh ... too busy.

Pakistan or France as an ally?

Pretty easy choice to make.

#55 Greg

[Pretty easy choice to make. ]

Why choose either. Like Nancy Reagan used to say. Just say NO!

#54 Photoblogger
LMFARO!!!

#57 mickthemick

heh heh ;-)

Well Chirac was just asking for it with that idiotic gesture.

BTW, looks like someone else had the same idea. But I think mine explores the topic a little deeper ;-)

OT:

Brahimi is FRENCH!

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

#54 Photoblogger

Funny site. I had to refrain from my beer during my visit.

LOL

53 Gary Bruce maybe i wasnt clear...

Not only do i feel its Israels right to do the same,buts its obligation...in fact i suscribe to to the following[see link]

[Link: www.masada2000.org...]

#59 Greg in LA

Brahimi is FRENCH!

And he just resigned from his UN position! Interesting news.

Brahimi quits post as UN envoy in Iraq ...

The resignation, brewing for a number of days, shocked the diplomatic community at the world body.

#60 PostalWorker

Thanks!

As soon as Berg Sr. hears about this (these) theory he'll buy into it big time.

I survived air travel in the US. The TSA almost took me down with a careful hiking boots and belt search, but I slipped through. The nice Islamic lady in the hijab got her deserved royal treatment and was waved on by.

I hate traveling.

6/11 was not as bad as it could have been. I blew that one.

Anyway, on Musharraf...

Al Qaeda wants him dead, and soon. They've proven it a couple times, unless it was his own ISI. He's trying to stay alive. Pakistan is one of several lit fuses in the world today. No worries.

Sort of OT Via Tim Blair:

In 1975, the BBC refused to broadcast a motor race because one of the cars was sponsored by a condom manufacturer. These days, British society must consider other sensitive issues:

An advert for women's underwear has been criticised after it was put up on billboards near two mosques.

The poster, for Wiltshire-based company Sloggi, shows four women wearing only G-strings and high heels, alongside the slogan "It's string time".

Not near any mosques it isn’t.

Bwaahaaahaa. It's string time 'slim.

# 65

Cover the mosque with canvas!

Postal Worker #50

That was Ceti Alpha 5.

C-A 4 exploded and blew C-A 5 out of its orbit.

a Trekish kind of guy

Casualty updates were scanty on Saturday, but officials have counted at least 54 people killed in the fighting since the offensive began.

I look foward to the wedding videos and hopefully they'll get the names right this time.

#43 deadman-

We never had irrefutable proof that Hitler was dead.

I saw a doumentary in the last few years that showed people (Amercians?) going into the archives in Russia, and comparing the dental records to the jawbone. It was a match. I think it also showed how Hitler's corpse was buried and reburied several times, before taking it to the then-USSR. It was fasinating.

59 & 62 Greg & Photoblogger

Interesting coincidence that 2 of the highest profile UN envoys, in as many days - Brahimi of Iraq and Baker of western Sudan - have resigned. One could almost get the impression that things are not going well in either the un or allahland.

Such a pity.

/Tag needed?

#64 beagle:

Your position doesn't take into account the possibility that ISI operatives and al Qaeda are one in the same. Musharaff has had to purge the ISI a couple of times as a result of those assassination attempts as well as lining up on the US side of this war. I don't think he completely trusts his own people, and it's certainly possible that al Qaeda is getting assistance via its agents in Pakistan.

OT: Peaceful Muslim Kids and Ted Kennedy

The Sunday Boston Globe has a typical (for them) puff piece by Bryan Bender, telling about the wonderful Cultural Bridges program, complete with Teddy Kennedy photo and quotes.

See, we bring a bunch of Muslim teenagers here, and they go back and tell everybody back home how wonderful the U.S.A. is. The tone of the article implies this is a great success. But then you read the quotes from the kids themselves, and you wonder what Bender was doing with the conscious part of his mind while writing the article.

After a year in the U.S., this is what our new-found "ambassadors for peace": had to say:

''We broke some of the myths," said Qarmout, who is returning to his family in the Gaza Strip after participating in the first US government program to bring young Muslims to the United States. ''Americans are not all rich," said Qarmout, who lived with a family in Albuquerque. ''I learned that 13 million live in poverty."

and

He taught his American friends, who used to introduce him as a resident of Gaza, some things about his country, too. ''Now I am from Palestine," he said.

or

''Our job is to go back and tell our people about the United States," said Hazem Torfah, 17, who is returning to his native Syria after a year in Ephrata, Wash. ''We have different education systems. Here you get to choose what you want to study. It's hard to do that in Syria. But a mix of both systems would be great."

Yes! Let us introduce aspects of the Syrian educational system into American public schools!

And finally:

''In Pakistan I could never get up and speak," said Sehrish Khan, 16, who spent the past year in Gaithersburg, Md., and was selected to address her fellow students Wednesday. ''I never had enough confidence."

Ah! If only Pakistanis had more confidence, they could freely express themselves!

The whole wretched article is freely accessible at the Boston Globe site for two days (through Monday, June 15):

Boston Globe: Teddy's Peaceful Muslim Teens

US MILITARY officials are holding a bodyguard of al-Qaeda terror leader Osama bin Laden at the naval base prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the Washington Post reported today.

Citing Defence Department memos and sources familiar with base captives, the newspaper said the bodyguard is Moroccan Abdallah Tabarak.

It said Tabarak enabled bin Laden to escape from the battle of Tora Bora in Afghanistan in late 2001 by making calls on his leader's personal satellite telephone.

...

Bin Laden bodyguard held: US

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

Old Musharif don't seem to be doing to bad lately.

39 anant

I also think that bombing from the air, is just so much hog wash for American consumption. The jihadis are in Kashmir, Lahore and Karachi, and Mushy is doing nothing about that.

There is also the other matter of money. Mushy must be in need of hard cash. I wonder when was the last tranch of dollars delivered to pakistan.

Bin Laden's ties with Pak military intelligence go all the way back to the early days of the Afghan jihad against the Soviets. He was a regular fixture at social events on the Pak-Saudi diplo/intel circuit. One can assume he kept his rolodex full and the contacts green over the years.

Perhaps that is why Musharraf isn't using the Pak Army for this op, he's using forces from the Frontier Corps and the Pak Militia. Perhaps in turn, this is why the bad guys are chewing up the Pak military forces as bad as they are dishing out 1 for 2 or 1 for 1 in the casualty lists.

Still, they may not be first team, but Mushie has some forces to spend, outnumbering the miscreants by about 160 to 1.

There is a military blackout on current operations, and not much is making it out around the news blockade, but this is more than it seems. When the dust settles, and the blackout is lifted, projected to occur in a week to ten days, the landscape on the Pak Afghan border will have taken a permanent change for the better.

As a matter of fact, I venture to guess that there won't be a single operational piece of construction equipment left in the entire frontier tribal areas.

If you have been following events closely in the region, since before the announcement of OMS, and already understand where the players are deployed and why, on both sides, these maps may be of use to you:

[Link: host1.in-motion.net...]