Allah threw a party and no one showed up...

Now if Allah threw a hand grenade...

Paterson, meanwhile, I believe is one of the municipalities which has decided to not cooperate with the feds in anti-terror activities. Don't want to rile the masses.

wow, they really made and effort!

Aref Assaf said it is important to make a distinction between Islam and terrorism.

So what is the difference Aref? FIRST drink a twofer

Charles

Meanwhile

Muslim groups call for understanding

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Oh yes, we now have to understand their pain.

No one showed up because there was no blown-up car to swarm.

Close but no cigar (that comes with a purchase of the Clinton book)

Perhaps the best LGF headline ever. Perhaps.

Aref Assaf said it is important to make a distinction between Islam and terrorism

How?

incidents like Johnson’s killing always put the American Muslim community on the defensive.

So in the end, once again, it's all about you, not the victim of the crime.

#8 NC

I still like "Marines seethe, win" the best.

Colt--It's a toss up.

Two dozens "moderate Muslims"? No way.

I'm not trying to create excuses so take it easy on me but when there were pro Bush rallies, the turn out wasn't too great either. Perhaps they (the Muslims) have jobs too? I don't know. Their leadership must know how this hurts their image. Or do they not condemn the murder of innocents?
Come on Islam...SPEAK UP!

From DP111's link:

Assaf told those at the rally it is "unfortunate" that perceptions remain that American Muslims share the same anti-American opinions that terrorists do.

The author did not mention the number of people at the rally. Convenient.

But on a more upbeat note, I'm really elated that Burt Rutan's SpaceShipOne was successful.

Actually the design of the mothership that carried the rocket ship to 50000 ft was for moi anyway, more fascinating. Really innovative design. I wonder when he is going to market that airplane.

Stop killing the innocents, because it makes us look bad

Hmmm... Isn't the right thing to say Stop killing the innocents and not worry about how it makes you look?

After all, a man lost his life here, and you are worried about ... what ... his wife? His family?

No, you are worried about your image.

Shame on you. Shame on every one of you that did not denounce, disavow, and distance themselves from this. The silence from the community was bad enough. The whining does not win you any more friends.

im really glad they at least tried.

maybe they should hold TONS of these get togethers, and when nobody starts to show up, invite someone like Ariel Sharon as a speaker just to see some contrast...

enough jesting - guys, you have my thanks for TRYING... but dont try to deny that it isnt a small minority of moslems that hate...

Perfectly in line with the true nature of Muslims. The Muslims that don't celebrate the murder of Paul Johnson certainly won't mourn it.
This was no rally to condemn a savage murder. It was a lip service.

Aref Assaf said it is important to make a distinction between Islam and terrorism.

Because ... ? Not enough Westerners have fallen for their bullshit?

#16 DP111:

The Rutan White Knight carrier plane is also going to be marketed as a high-altitude surveillance aircraft.

#20 zulubaby

It's called Deja Moo... the feeling that you've heard this bullshit before.

Aref Assaf said it is important to make a distinction between Islam and terrorism.

That's right. Islam is thousand people praying in unison toward Mecca with their butts in the air. And terrorism is the ranting incitement to murder heard in the mosque afterward.

Aref Assaf said it is important to make a distinction between Islam and terrorism.

Ain't a dime's worth of difference.

Is it possible that the Muslims who attended this rally risked their lives to make this statement?

Maybe they're a little safer because they are in the US, but I wouldn't totally dismiss the suggestion that this took a lot of guts.

Mr Pol, LOL, I guess that's one way of looking at it :-)

Bob with one O (#14)

Strange comparison you make there between a pro-Bush rally and this rally. I'm not sure I understand the connection.

Perhaps they (the Muslims) have jobs too?

I would hope so but most people don't work on Saturdays.

Aref Assaf said it is important to make a distinction between Islam and terrorism.

Oh, but I do make a distinction, sir! You see, Islam is a religion based upon racism, sexism, ethnic hatred, theocratic imperial expansionism, and repression of freedoms. On the other hand, terrorism is merely the tool by which Islam attempts to realize those "principles."

So you can rest easy, knowing that I fully understand the differences.

The other "moderate" Muslims were probably too busy picketing Caterpillar.

I love it when they show their true colors...they cant even pretend to hide their savagery...The president of the New Jersey chapter of an Arab-American group said incidents like Johnson’s killing always put the American Muslim community on the defensive.

Abit of advice...they had better stay on the defensive..

Aref Assaf said it is important to make a distinction between Islam and terrorism.

Has anone written a PC version of the Koran? Might be great satire.

Ploome, are you a Noachite?

Maybe they should have advertised that there would be punch and pie...

Wow...google Aref Assaf...this guy is a piece of work.

Assuming that there are 200,000 muslims in New Jersey (see link below to 1990 numbers) and 24 turned out, then 0.012% of New Jersey's muslims turned out to express their outrage.

Link: [Link: www.islam101.com...]

8 NC

Overwhelming Majority of Muslims Doesn't Attend NJ Rally

Charles, NC- English as a language, is renowned for the subtle understatement or irony. But I cant make out which of one this is. Please clarify.

15 Ann

Assaf told those at the rally it is "unfortunate" that perceptions remain that American Muslims share the same anti-American opinions that terrorists do.

It is all a matter of 'perceptions' ie point of view. Now in the eyes or perception of American muslims, Islamic terrorism is not terrorism at all but defence of Islam, and hence has legal sanction as ordained by allah etc.

Disinformation, obfuscation, downright lies, lies by ommission and then if that fails, ask for understanding or time to get Islam reformed. We can expect all this and more. That is why I'm so chary of anything that comes from even the most respected moderate Muslim, and that includes Irshad Manji.

Maybe they should have advertised that there would be punch and pie...

Perhaps they would have had a dozen more if they announced that Paul Johnson wasn't a Jew.

#34 rwc
How big of a whack job is it?

What does "Moderate Muslim" mean, anyway?

As if that's a GOOD thing?

Isn't that a bit like saying Moderate Nazi?

RWC, sheesh, no kidding. The guy is something else.

Moderately WHAT?

Only MODERATELY Jihadist and hostile to enlightened humanity?

Gimme a freakin' break...

#36

Overwhelming Majority of Muslims Doesn't Attend NJ Rally

In contrast to:

Underwhelming Majority of Muslims Doesn't Attend NJ Rally

No, it is this:

"Overwhelming Majority of Muslims Attends NJ Rally"

in contrast with the title, this:

"Overwhelming Majority of Muslims Doesn't Attend NJ Rally"

#38 jrdroll

NJ Solidarity, Rutgers Divestment, Why Bush Hates Palestinians., Distributor of Resistance Art, Letter to Al-Ahram:

Israel could have easily arrested Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, a 67-year-old quadriplegic and the most prominent Palestinian Islamic figure, and tried him for his alleged crimes. However, this savage act should come as no surprise to anyone who has followed Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's actions.

Link.

And more.

#43 colt
Yes that's much better.

Israel could have easily arrested Sheikh Ahmed Yassin

But it was easier to kill him (and smarter too).

Interesting that they had a "rally" at all - could it be because Johnson was converting to Islam! have you seen picture of his wife in what looks to be a hijab?!?

Notice not one muslim group decried Nick Berg's beheading (but of course Berg being a Jew probably had nothing to do with that, smirk.)

-teri

#44 rwc
A positive propagandist.

It's an ironic reference to the constant drumbeat of "the overwhelming majority of muslims are peaceful, yada yada yada..."

MSNBC: Worldwide disgust over American’s killing

(Aref Assaf is photographed, apparently with about 25% of the demonstration behind him.)

Some extracts:

In Syria, a longtime U.S. foe, Information Ministry official Ahmad Haj Ail called Johnson’s slaying “a horrible crime that is alien to the Arabs and Muslims.”

Uh-huh.

The Italians, never known for quiet understatement:

Italy’s leading daily Corriere della Sera ran a front-page editorial calling the killing “the apotheosis of the culture of death ... the most barbarous violation of the sacredness of life, the central point of our civilization.”

#36 DP111:

Definition of "unfortunate"

The key word is victim.

Almost funny if it wasn't so true.

WTF? Must they all be victims, all of the time? What is it in islam that stresses victimization (submission!).

The koran. Big mo and his sycophants just wanted victims.

So, basically this was takkiyah for the media. Great.

The headline could have more accurately depicted:

"200-thousand Muslims displayed their TACIT support for the murderers Paul Johnson Jr. A tiny group of American Muslims showed up to voice their opposition to the majority-Jihadi view.."

To which I scream "Alllaaahu Akbar! God is great, but Muslims seem to be really messed-up!"

47,

As Johnson and his wife lived in Saudi Arabia seeing he in a burkha is hardly an indicator of her being a Muslim.

I saw her plea on tv and she did not have on burka or a headscarf.

She is Thai so chances are she is a Buddist.

Dubious...

People not doing something isn't all that interesting. It used to be a common tactic in the UK parliament to create petitions for really obvious things, and then when people didn't get round to signing them, make a big fuss about it, e.g.

Create a petition saying "We the undersigned think that racism is bad". Ask your local member of parliament to sign it. Because your local mp has better things to do than sign ever weirdo thing that lands on his/her desk, it doesn't get signed.

Then, go to the local paper with some lame story about 'racist mp doesn't sign anti-racism petition'.

All pretty silly. It's clear that whatever this rally was it backfired. I don't know how many they would have needed to make it look good, but they obviously didn't get them. We can make our own judgement as to why(mine is that most of them didn't give a shit about whoever got killed because they don't know him and it happened a long way way).

However, there are lots of other plausible reasons, like the people organising it were all tossers.

That seems to happen a lot - a group of people want you to rally for a cause you basically agree with - e.g. not invading Iraq. But, the people organising it are obviously a bunch of tossers - e.g. unthinking anti-everything nutters that think it's cool to call Bush "A Christian thug", and choose to quietly ignore all Saddam's crimes - so, you end up staying at home. Sucks, eh?

Why can't they be good Muslims and have a "Death to the Infidel" rally?
At least it would make for a decent target.

Zulubaby,

Let me try here. Third world immigrants work wherever and whenever they can. (I'm trying hard but I really don't like doing this) The lowest in the economy take service jobs etc.
The Bush rally paradigm was stated because we work for a living (and usually can't take time off from our jobs), while the anti- war crowd: typically young, have jobs (or not) that allow them to be seen at protest rallies.
Again, I'm not making excuses for American Muslims.

I'm sorry, but I see no reason for Americans to assume that their Muslim neighbors DON'T support jihadis. We never hear anything to the contrary. A public rally like the one described is great, but the tiny turnout tells there are several possibilities as to why - the Muslims in the community support terrorism, or they just don't give a damn what we think, or (and this is very possible) the jihadis have infiltrated most American Muslim communities so deeply that everyone who is moderate is cowed and afraid. I have this awful feeling that it is the latter.

PDM (#37)

Perhaps they would have had a dozen more if they announced that Paul Johnson wasn't a Jew.

Was he a Jew?

#53 colt

So, basically this was takkiyah for the media. Great.

Yes. But we now know about hudna and takkiyah which points to:

UNLV INSTITUTE OF SECURITY STUDIES: Lecturer says Islam helps create terror

Controversial view in master's degree program not shared by all

By K.C. HOWARD
REVIEW-JOURNAL
Patrick Boylan, a member of the state's board of education, brought out the Quran before 19 of the state's highest emergency responders.

"It says it right here. Do not take the infidels as your friends," he said, citing Sura 5:51. "I'm making statements straight from the Quran and these are what terrorists are using to justify terrorism."

The topic of his lecture, "The terrorist mind-set, why do they hate us?" was part of a federally funded pilot master's degree program at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas' Institute of Security Studies.

Its students, Bechtel Nevada employees, police officers and firefighters, are working to obtain an executive master of science in crisis and emergency management degree.

"I have studied the Quran for this very purpose to understand why they behave the way they do," said Boylan, an Irish Catholic, who grew up in Pakistan. "There is going to be a war on terrorism that is never going to stop, and Islam is behind it."

[Link: www.reviewjournal.com...]

People have had enough. They are getting angry.
"Paul Johnson will live forever, unlike those cowards that never will," read a sign outside the Captain's Warehouse store on Route 9. At Clearwater Marine Supply, customers vented about being "sick of putting up with all the crap from other countries," according to manager Brian Houff.

Robert Gestafson, 64, of Little Egg Harbor was blunt: "I think they should just take a bomb and blow the whole place up."
"Last night my heart was filled with love and prayers, but today it's filled with hatred ... Last night Islamics had a chance to speak up for Paul Johnson, but today it's too late ... No God condones murder. May God bless the Johnsons."
Good for the New Jerseyans. Enough of this PC crap. Tell it like it is. There needs to be a huge anti-islam sentiment resonating from coast to coast and make these terror funders wake up.

[Link: www.nj.com...]

#56 J

But, the people organising it are obviously a bunch of tossers - e.g. unthinking anti-everything nutters that think it's cool to call Bush "A Christian thug", and choose to quietly ignore all Saddam's crimes - so, you end up staying at home.

Ignoring Saddam's crimes and hating Bush is basic moderate Islam.

As for Assaf, he's the New Jersey leader of the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee, not exactly a minor group. I expect they have more members than 20 in Paterson.

Was he a Jew?

No, he wasn't. If they made that clear to more Muslims, they may have increased the attendance by a dozen.

There are NO moderate muslims. They are either actively participating in the terrorism, or they are silently cheering from their closets. I don't trust any of them, not even the apostates. This is probably just another strategm of warfare against the West using deception to lull westerners asleep, so they can put a knife against our throats.

#24 ploome

Do not murder.

Yup

Do not steal.

Yup

Do not worship false gods.

Huh? I'll worship who/what I want thanks. And just what committe gets together to decide which gods are false. Only a bunch or priests could come up with that one.

Do not be sexually immoral.

As defined by what? Are we talking no adultery or no spanking? Generally, religion and sex go well together like, I dunno, nitroglycerine and clumsyness.

Do not eat the limb of an animal before it is killed.

Lay off the crack, mr priest law writing person. Was there some time in history where they had this big problem of people tucking into their goats before they were dead? That law almost makes Leviticus look sane, and that's saying something. Nutters.

Do not curse God.

Dumb law. Stupid priests at it again. I'll curse what I want, and I'm just guessing that God's big enough to take a bit of dissing from me. Just because it undermines the power of the fecking priests...

Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.

Yup

So, 3 good, 2 bad, 1 maybe and one absolutely crack-fuelled. That's better than most religions!

Muslims of America we see you. We see where your heart is. You side with the terrorists at your own peril. We will safeguard the country against all enemies, both foreign and domestic.

PDM, oh, I see what you're saying.

#66 J,

Generally, religion and sex go well together like, I dunno, nitroglycerine and clumsyness.

That depends on the religion (and the sex) I suppose.

The first commandment in the Torah is to be fruitful.

I don't think HaShem was telling us to grow oranges.

I'd like to make a distinction--between the quality of a man like the Duke of Wellington and a @#$%^&*() like Bin Laden. We know what the goat-shagger sounds like. For a contrast, I give you the Duke:

"It has been a damned serious business—Blucher and I have lost 30,000 men. It has been a damned nice thing—the nearest-run thing you ever saw in your life." [re Waterloo]

"Hard pounding this, gentlemen; let’s see who will pound longest." [at Waterloo]

"All the business of war, and indeed all the business of life, is to endeavour to find out what you don’t know by what you do; that’s what I called ‘guessing what was at the other side of the hill.’"

"I never saw so many shocking bad hats in my life." [re Reformed Parliament]

"You must build your House of Parliament upon the river: so that the populace cannot exact their demands by sitting down round you."

"So he is a fool, and a d___d fool; but he can take Rangoon."

"Up, Guards, and at them again!"

"Publish and be damned." [Written across the face of a blackmailing letter]

Makes Rummy look circumspect [vbg].

#66 J,

The Noahide Laws are an expression of what man learned about how to be human, when he was learning not to be an animal anymore. So, yes, there was a time when people were "tucking into goats before they were dead". Man decided to slaughter food animals humanely.

The Noah flood story is about mankind emerging from animal-like lack of awareness. It's about hominids becoming human by understanding right and wrong.

The no sexual immorality rule is so that we are not like beasts who copulate with any fertile female, regardless of age or kinship, or with available little boys.

The false Gods rule is to prevent the proliferation of competing, religions, which Noah wisely saw would lead to much trouble. Can you honestly say that he was wrong?

Paterson is a nest of deadly vipers. They've spawned many terrorists. And this "rally," even as self-serving as it is (Don't pick on us!), can hardly get a quorum.

Clear them out, root and branch!

J--I'd like to see those priests locked up and throw away the key. Just remember most priest "pedophile" cases involve no such behavior - they involve young people of 16, not 6. The proper word for a man who has sex with a boy of 16 or 17 is homosexuality.
[Link: www.ncregister.com...]

#67 Papertiger,

"to protect and defend the Constitution, against all enemies, foreign and domestic". I still remember like it was yesterday.

#71 PDM

That reminds me a joke...

A "modern" Islamic couple, preparing for a religious wedding meets with their Mullah for counseling. The Mullah asks if they have any last questions before
they leave.
The man asks, "We realize it's a tradition in Islam for men to dance with men, and women to dance with women. But, at our wedding reception, we'd like your
permission to dance together."
"Absolutely not," says the Mullah. "It's immoral. Men and women always dance separately."
"So after the ceremony I can't even dance with my own wife?"
"No," answered the Mullah, "It's forbidden in Islam."
"Well, okay," says the man, "What about sex? Can we finally have sex?"
"Of course!" replies the Mullah, "Allah'u'Akbar! Sex is OK within marriage, to have children!"
"What about different positions?" asks the man.
"Allah'u'Akbar! No problem," says the Mullah.
"Woman on top?" the man asks.
"Sure," says the Mullah. "Allah'u'Akbar. Go for it!"
"Doggy style?"
"Sure! Allah'u'Akbar!"
"On the kitchen table?"
"Yes, yes! Allah'u'Akbar!"
"Can we do it with all my four wives together on rubber sheets with a bottle of hot oil, a couple of vibrators, leather harnesses, a bucket of honey and a porno video?"
"You may indeed. Allah'u'Akbar!"
"Can we do it standing up?"
"No." says the Mullah."
"Why not?" asks the man.
"Because that could lead to dancing."

Ok, US imam calls a press conference and, in a seething diatribe, he claims that Americans denounce the 7th century mentality of Mecca and Medina.

He slams his fist on the podium and states that islam must evolve, or die. He opens up his mosque to anyone who wants to show up, at any time, regardless of their beliefs, mode of dress, please wear shoes and bring your well-behaved dogs, by Allah!

"This mosque is using its contributions for the homeless and hungry in America. Your contributions will no longer go to islamic charities. They will go to all charities, as we are part of the American community, which must be served, as we are Americans."

Who wants to finish the story...

#39 L'il mamzer

Moderate Muslims go to the mosque, abhor violence, are the best man at Jewish weddings, and want nothing to do with either terrorism or introducing sharia' into Western countries. Sure they exist, I know some personally.

Peiople who claim that they are only too infrewquent as a political force have hit the nail on the head.

People who claim they don't exist are wrong, and people who claim that moderate Muslims are just lying to cover up their true intents are just foaming bigots, plain and simple.

#69 ploome

Fascinating link. I can't honestly say I saw anything about eating animal's limbs, but I'll take your word for it - most of these things have some basis in fact, I guess.

Aref Assaf is absolutely right. There is a distinction between Islam and terrorism. They are not one and the same.

One is a cause, and the other is the effect.

See?

#79 Hhar

People who claim they don't exist are wrong, and people who claim that moderate Muslims are just lying to cover up their true intents are just foaming bigots, plain and simple.

I am open to admitting to being wrong. But your assertion that you know some is insufficient evidence. Whyn not ask them to introduce themselves here? The rule of taqiwya(sp?) gives some force to the argument of people you claim are bigots. I am not a bigot and I don't give any Muslim the benefit of the doubt. If they claim to be practicing Muslims and Islam requires them to lie to the kufr, don't call me a bigot for not trusting them.

Is it possible that the Muslims who attended this rally risked their lives to make this statement?

Who exactly would they be afraid of when attending this rally? Other Muslims?

#73 D-Fens

"The false Gods rule is to prevent the proliferation of competing, religions, which Noah wisely saw would lead to much trouble. Can you honestly say that he was wrong? "

Well, yes. The false Gods rule may have been an attempt to ensure only one religion, but in reality it merely ensured that different religions were not just different, but hated each other too.

This is painfully clear in the religions of the book. Christianity, and Islam and more similar than they are different. But each of them is convinced that _their_ minor details are the _correct_ minor details. Which leads to trouble :-).

Buddhism has many variations, but it's not a religion that ever cared much about them. So while Buddhist nations have had plenty of wars, at least they've never been over Buddhism!*

*That I'm aware of, I'm no expert on eastern history.

#81 Iron Fist:

Yep. No sh*t. islam can't evolve, IMHO. It must be a victimized, murder by missionary, delusional, deceptive movement.

D-Fens (#26)

If the Muslims in the US can't speak out about violence then there really is no hope for them.

So where was the great, silent majority of moderate muslims? I thought being muslim means not being able to skip a peace rally?!?!

Thankfully, MOST self-described American Muslims were out eating pepperoni pizza and BLTs from McDonald's. They decidedly were not at Saudi-funded mosque for full cerebral lobotomization and jihad programming. Quite a few of them were eating MRE's while destroying the enemies of America in Iraq.

Paterson borders my NJ hometown.

Thirty years ago, blighted, it looked like bombed out Beirut, us scared white kids would buy weed on the corner, and our rolling papers at the Arab ripoff market.
Still the same scene, except for prices.

Didn't Paterson have an "al-Qu3da Travel" Agency, quickly renamed on 9/12?

Moderate Muslims HAVE introduced themselves here, and quite frankly I could get my ass hauled in for "sensitivity training" if my some of my colleagues knew I was posting here. Most of my colleagues know that comparative religion is an interest of mine, and the institution that I work at train large numbers of professionals from Arab countries and from Iran.Saudis amoung them. I get to know some of them quite well, and they get to know me.

I've asked several about taqqiya, and most have told me that it is restricted to extreme situations: when in immediate physical peril, otherwise lying to non-Muslims is not permitted. Of course you aren't required to beleive that, but then you have set up what's called a unfalsifiable theory. Once one has determined that somebody MUST be dishonest, it is impossible to demonstrate the person's honesty.

#87 zulubaby

I was just trying to acknowledge that it takes some bravery to speak up when in the Islamic empire it is a capital crime to suggest that the Koran is not to be taken literally.

I was trying to find something positive in a dismal situation. Chalk it up to my having attended elementary school on a college campus in the 60s.

#87 zulubaby:

One young saudi pilot that came into our office related that he stayed up all last night. It was the morning after the sniper arrests were made.

He said that he was relieved that he finally got a name of one of the guys: John Williams. He was ready to go to sleep, and caught the announcer saying that he converted to islam and his legal name was John Mohammed.

"We just can't get a break." That was his last comment.

D-Fens (#93)

I was just trying to acknowledge that it takes some bravery to speak up when in the Islamic empire it is a capital crime to suggest that the Koran is not to be taken literally.

I'll agree with that except if you're talking about in the US.

I see a resemblance between islam and communism. Both are intolerant of every belief but their own and both breed poverty. Notorious atheist butchers like Mao Zedong, Pol Pot,Stalin, and Enver Hoxha killed and slaughtered their own people at an unheard-of rate.  When it comes to piling up a body count, atheists take second place to none. Islam is giving them a run for their money.

Charles,
Clean-up on #98

#92 bigel

You outed me! Please remove 07410 from your bombing co-ordinates.

Haven't been in FL for more than 4 hours since the mid-seventies, don't miss it one bit.

What exit are you?

#97 Katt

When it comes to piling up a body count, atheists take second place to none.

What?

#98,

Sorry about your dyslexia. Now FDOA

#77 Mr Pol

Can we do it standing up?"
"No." says the Mullah."
"Why not?" asks the man.
"Because that could lead to dancing."

Sounds like the Baptists

#97 Katt

When it comes to piling up a body count, atheists take second place to none.

Deja Moo...

#77 Mr Pol,

LOL!
I was reading that saying yea, yea, I heard the same joke told about a Jewish couple...
until I got to this:

"Can we do it with all my four wives together on rubber sheets with a bottle of hot oil, a couple of vibrators, leather harnesses, a bucket of honey and a porno video?"

And I thought Jews were "fruitful."

Rwc

This Assaf.. Wowwie.

Why Bush Hates Palis

#78

"Then he wakes from that nightmare..."

#66

ROTFLMAO... Some of the ones you don't like make sense as well. Suppose little "J" was hungry, and the lamb to be slaughtered for the feast was standing by the kitchen. The point of that is that little "J" shouldn't pull a Tyson on the goat. Kill it first.

Then again, lobster and other seafood is eaten live (though it is not kashrut), so maybe that one is negotiable.

Then again, lobster and other seafood is eaten live (though it is not kashrut), so maybe that one is negotiable.

I've heard of them being cooked alive, but never eaten alive. That's a new one to me. (disgusting)

#85 J 6/21/2004 04:00PM PST
This is painfully clear in the religions of the book. Christianity, and Islam and more similar than they are different. But each of them is convinced that _their_ minor details are the _correct_ minor details. Which leads to trouble :-).

"Religions of the Book" is a *strictly* Islogical concept. There is no common ground between the Qur'an and either the Tenach or the New Testament. The Qur'an distorts every Biblical concept and every "storyline."

Real understanding occurs when you actually *read* the book. Try a modern-language New Testament Gospel of John. Then try any version of Qur'an--any sura. They are only a few hundred years apart--should be virtually identical in content and readability, right? (Ha!)

Does this look like al-Islogic to you? "My kingdom is not of this world."

Wake up and get your facts straight, or keep destroying your own credibility.

Re Paul Johnson, he was very interested in islam, and had spent many years among muslims, and also professed a dislike of the US, which had been noted last week.

Re his wife? She was sen in western dress and covered with a head scarf ,at least: U.S. hostage beheaded; leader dead

The city was quiet and subdued, reporters there said, and Saudis saw Johnson's Thai wife, dressed in traditional, conservative Saudi robes, appeal tearfully on Arab television for his release

Thanom, wife of kidnapped American hostage Paul Johnson appeals for his freedom (photo)

Even his love of the RoP, his choosing to live with them, rather than in a compound for westerners, and his never going back to NJ to see his 3 year old grandson, in the end, did not save him..he was an infidel.

Re NJ? As other posters have attested to, it is a seething hotbead of the cult of islam, and that 'speech' are, IMHO, merely a ploy. Just as they know how to assassinate thousands within minutes, they also know how to use the panting press mionions..who willingly allow them to.

@85 j

There is much more than just minor details differences in Christianity and islam. Christianity is based on the purpose of saving souls first and foremost, and not about expansionism in this physical world. Jesus advocated that government and church to be separate. Render unto Caesar what is Caesars, and unto God which is Gods. He taught about the joys, grace and miracles of LIFE.
You cannot ever associate that teaching with the cult of death known as islam. Islam is the very antithesis of Christs teachings.

@91 Hhar

I have worked with and associated with Saudi Arabians as well as Iranians and Bahrainis. They've all told me the same thing. Taquiyah is adamant of all practicing muslim when dealing with kufr. There are no moderate muslims. They are either actively supporting the violent expansion of islam, or they silently cheer it from their closets while paying out of their wallets. Otherwise they are considered apostate.

I had to go look up Enver Hoxha. I learn something on here every day.

*WARNING* Gross live-cooked animal history

I gotta get back to work, so no time to google, but there was a Medieval European dish where they roasted a goose until it was al-MOST deceased, then carried it quickly to the high table, where somebody tore off one of the poor critter's wings. The bird's scream of agony was considered esthetically pleasing.

Nowadays, freshly beheaded shrimp flopping on a glop of rice is considered pleasing in some restaurants.

Plus ca change...

#98 Iron Fist

Can we talk? Uh, can you find it in your big heart to take pity on a couple of NY suburban grandparents who have a 2-year old granddaughter in Joisey (exit 50B), and a 4-year old granddaughter on LongEyeland? (exit 34 on the Northern State) ?

#79

People who claim they don't exist are wrong, and people who claim that moderate Muslims are just lying to cover up their true intents are just foaming bigots, plain and simple.

Any moderate Muslims in America must very soon realize that their avowed sacred scripture, the Koran, having many, many undisputably blatant commands and vows to kill their non-Muslim countrymen and commit other crimes, connects unacceptably with admitted jihadists' strident efforts to do the same.

A moderate Muslim would have to realize that their fidelity to such a scripture, that itself constitutes a conspiracy of genocide among its adherants, is not compatible with the law and order of their host country or of any civilized country, much less this one that is one of the biggest active targets of jihad.

So a moderate Muslm would have to choose between espousing a markedly reformist version of Islam that openly rejects the muderous jihad of the Koran and those who follow it or leaving the country he or she is incompatible with. Not taking either action would lead to justifible detention or destruction of those so misguided as to assent to the ongoing conspiracy of illegal jihad from within the belly of the superpower host whose laws and mores they live under.

I'd suggest a little test: talk to a Muslim with no beard, and not from Saudi Arabia and your chance of getting a different answer I'd say is about 75%. talk tto a Muslim from Saudi with a big bushy beard, and the odds lower to about 10%. Also, you'd better be clear on your exactly what you are referring to definition of Taqqiyah. As I said before, some people put stringent limits on it, though some think it mandatory in some situations. Other Muslims denounce the practice altogether.

I am currently working with one Saudi who said "Of course I'm an Islamist!". I then asked him why he said that, and what he said was that he thought Islam was the best religion for all mankind. I asked him about church state separation and he complained that one of the reasons the Arab world was messed up was that they didn't have that. The guy also wants to be a forensic pathiologist (quite impossible under the Islamists, you know).

Its quite impossible to generalise.

Nick Berg, Paul Johnson, and J have in common a unwavering trust of Muslims. I personally won't make that same mistake.

Reaganite--well, it's true. Non religion Communism has killed more in the last century than the world wars--and I think the figures are modest--The Black Book says they are much higher,but Communist countries aren't exactly open on facts.
--Nearly 200,000,000 people have been murdered in cold-blood by governments
--atheist Soviet Union (near 62,000,000 people-modest figure),
-- the atheist communist government of China (near 35,000,000),
--atheist Nationalist China (some 10,000,000)
-- most intense democide was carried out by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, where they killed over 30 percent of their subjects in less than four years.
--- Nazi Germany (almost 21,000,000), Hitler's secretary, Martin Bormann, declared that "National Socialism [Nazism] and Christianity are irreconcilable." Hermann Rauschning, a Hitler associate, said, "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." The Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools. Instead of God the atheists worshipped Hitler.

#118 hhar

Its quite impossible to generalise.

Main Entry: schizo·phre·nia
Pronunciation: "skit-s&-'frE-nE-&
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin
1 : a psychotic disorder characterized by loss of contact with the environment, by noticeable deterioration in the level of functioning in everyday life, and by disintegration of personality expressed as disorder of feeling, thought (as in hallucinations and delusions), and conduct -- called also dementia praecox
2 : contradictory or antagonistic qualities or attitudes

#117 Rufus Lee King

Most established religions have to alter the practice and approach to their religion to deal with empirical reality. Sure, Islam on a global scale isn't moving fast enough, but most Muslims are not stupid. They don't much care what people who use language like yours think about them either: anyone with a shred of self-respect wouldn't.

Its generally a bad idea to tell someone else how to interpret their religion. Holding everybody firmly to a standard of speech and behavior, on the other hand, works nicely in the long run.

#121 My favorite line from Wm Blake (it was marginalia in one of his books) is:

"To generalise is to be an idiot." :-)

#120 Katt
You seem to want to limit it to this century (which you didn't state in your post). Somehow I think religion has taken far more blood if you take away your time limits.

#122 hhar

Its generally a bad idea to tell someone else how to interpret their religion.

Just ask Galileo Galilei

Replace the k0ran with the cookbook in the Twilight Zone episode " To Serve Man".

It's a cookbook! Don't get on that ship!

Good example. I think it was Koestler who pointed out that if Galileo hadn't been absolutely intent on rubbing the theological consequences of his cosmology in the Church's face, he would not have been persecuted. I mean, members of the Jesuit order were teaching Copernican systems contemporaneously with Galileo without any interference from the Church, so it wasn't like heliocentricity qua heliocentricity was a big deal.

To my view Galileo was a brilliant scientist and a martyr to his big mouth.

#125 jrdroll:

Oh wait. I didn't realise you were serious. That website really sucks: shallow hagiography. Read some actual history.

#126 bp sf,

Replace the k0ran with the cookbook in the Twilight Zone episode " To Serve Man".

It's a cookbook! Don't get on that ship!

I did something like that a while back. I think the reference is a bit too obscure though.

#122

Its generally a bad idea to tell someone else how to interpret their religion. Holding everybody firmly to a standard of speech and behavior, on the other hand, works nicely in the long run.

Sometimes they overlap. The Koran concerns itself with the comission of what are crimes in this and most countries.

In this country, the law reigns supreme. Even the freedom of religion takes a back seat to law and order when they conflict. Christian Scientists lose their children when they deny them necessary healthcare. Santeria animal sacrifice adherants are nontheless banned from animal cruelty.

Islam should either reform its behaviors that constitute criminal violations and security risks to the satisfaction of its host country's mores, or suffer the legitimate prosecutions for criminal conspiracies or the detentions of wartime emergency that will likely follow.

Ryufus Lee King #130

In my experience, most Muslims will tell you that a Muslim in the west must respect the law of the land, or leave. That's a fairly common interpretation. If the law of the land is separation of church and state, they must obey it. They can lobby all they like to change a countries constitution, but the law of the land is paramount.

Islamists will tell you otherwise, but I believe that such things fall under laws concerning "criminal conspiracy".

Well here's a rally in NJ that was well attended:

First hip-hop convention raps on politics

Unfortunately it was a convergence of pretentious gasbags that take themselves way too seriously.

A thumping bass is so loud it drowns out the rhyming lyrics. And the speakers discuss less than mainstream topics, such as "How to Get Stupid White Men Out of Office,"

That's described as "less than mainstream"?
Sounds downright racist to me.

Wait for the overwhelming denunciation by the PC crowd any minute now, ...

#91 Hhar

Moderate Muslims HAVE introduced themselves here, and quite frankly I could get my ass hauled in for "sensitivity training" if my some of my colleagues knew I was posting here

I haven't read past the post of yours I'm citing but WHAT moderate muslim has posted here?

And if you could get your ass hauled in for sensitivity training for posting here then you work for an organization that denies you free speech and free thought and free association. Do not then, come here, and accuse people of being bigots when you associate with people who would force you to attend re-orientation training (read brainwashing) for posting here.

And I'm bookmarking your post for future reference.

As far as I can tell, that'd be 2 dozen more than the number of non-Muslims on the street protesting the beheading. (Or is the fact that for non-Muslims, it wasn't done "In Our Name" (trade mark) a good enough reason not to protest?) And never has an "overwhelming majority" of any group protested in the street over anything.

Maybe the South Korean government, at risk of one of their citizens being murdered, should issue a threat to the terrorists: if they murder the hostage, the government will double their deployment to Iraq.

#127 Hhar

To my view Galileo was a brilliant scientist and a martyr to his big mouth.

Well just be sure you're not a martyr to you own big mouth and end up getting hauled into sensitivity training for posting here.

Oh, you are so on my list.

Reaganite--I read somewhere that atheism has killed more in a couple hundred years than religion has in its lifetime--but I can't find it.
I like atheists anyways--some of my best friends are that. Each to their own. I need my religion. It got me through some tough times, but that is my choice and I don't believe in forcefeeding my religion on anyone. I love Jews, Buddhists, atheists, whatever. But I will always be a Christian--by choice. There are some things done in the name of Christianity that do not make me proud. But I don't sit quietly and condone . I hate islam and what it promotes and its adherents who sit their with their fingers up their asses, chanting islam is peace.

123 Hhar 6/21/2004 05:19PM PST

#121 My favorite line from Wm Blake (it was marginalia in one of his books) is:

"To generalise is to be an idiot." :-)

That's quite a generalization!

#133 grayp

I work for a multi-culti large Canadian hospital. So, yeah, I "associate" with brainwashing fanatics: they are called "civil servants" and "Hospital Administrators", and they are REAL keen on sensitivity training. So, ummm...stuff it.

Hhar--well, if you are a muslim you'd be persecuted today, let alone in Galileo's time.
In 1993, Saudi Arabia's supreme religious authority declared that the world is flat, and that anyone who disagrees is an infidel to be punished. :):):)

All generalizations are false.

#140 Renna

All generalizations are false.

85% of statistics are made up.

#89 bp sf

Thirty years ago, blighted, it looked like bombed out Beirut, us scared white kids would buy weed on the corner, and our rolling papers at the Arab ripoff market. Still the same scene, except for prices. Didn't Paterson have an "al-Qu3da Travel" Agency, quickly renamed on 9/12?

It's still the same. Except, for the 20,000 Arabs. The cops are staking out the Broadway Bridge these days. Probably looking for truck bombs on the way to NYC.

#138 Hhar

Where in Canada are you? Just nosin' around.

85% of statistics are made up.

I'm 95% sure of it.

grayp

Same situation where I work with respect to being sensitive ie: brainwashed/cultish/diversiphony baloney.

#138 Hhar

So, ummm...stuff it.

Why should I? You have already allowed that to be done to you. I truly want to believe in a moderate Islam and to meet its adherents. It hasn't happened.

You have made assertions without evidence.

what moderate muslims have posted here?

I've asked several about taqqiya, and most have told me that it is restricted to extreme situations: when in immediate physical peril, otherwise lying to non-Muslims is not permitted. Of course you aren't required to beleive that, but then you have set up what's called a unfalsifiable theory. Once one has determined that somebody MUST be dishonest, it is impossible to demonstrate the person's honesty

You cite what you have been told, but you don't cite what has been done. You come here and label anyone who does not take them at their word because of taqqiya as bigots, and then when that is cited as grounds for distrust accuse US as setting up an unfalsifiable theory. Ask them to prove THEIR contention. I'm not part of an umma going around beheading kufr. You are wrong. It is not impossible to demonstrate an person's honesty and I am willing to bet you would NEVER maintain that position about a non-Muslim.

YOU are the one who came here under the cloak of courage - you could be hauled into sensitivity training for posting here. True courage would be standing up to the culture that mandates that horseshit.

I will never be stuffed. You already are.

#144 WriterMom

Toronto. I gather that there are a fair number of Torontonians around here: scaramouche, cba, Dethberg...

#128 troll

Oh wait. I didn't realise you were serious. That website really sucks: shallow hagiography. Read some actual history.

You slimy RED bastard! That website is put up by the communists in the University. You don't like RED hagiography? Die you Stalinist a$$hole!
[Link: es.rice.edu...]

#145 WriterMom

Same situation where I work

What? You could be forced to sensitivity training for posting here?

OT

The deadline has passed for the South Korean hostage.

Blackfive's take.

I think we found the real "minority of radical Muslims trying to hijack a religion"

#22 Mr Pol

This is great! Deja moo. Is this yours, or is it going around and I am unfamiliar with it?

#66 J

Re: sexual behavior:.Forbidden sexual relations are the biblical ones. Adultery, incest, bestiality. Homosexuality comes under idolatry.

Here’s a link to torah.org (reputable religious Jewish site) and a quote:
[Link: www.torah.org...]
“The seven laws that were given to Adam and Noah are discussed in the Talmud (tractate Sanhedrin). In brief, these laws are: establishing a legal system; refraining from idolatry, blasphemy, murder, robbery, adultery and incest; and not eating from an animal while it is still alive. ("Adultery and incest" counts only as one; the Hebrew word for this class of forbidden sexual relations doesn't have a one-word translation in English.)”

Limb of the animal. I guess you haven’t been around. Yes, that was a real problem.

The laws have to do with consider the feelings (pain and other feelings) of animals, in fact, meat eating is considered a downward compromise in the Bible because humans started out as vegetarians. See:
[Link: www.asknoah.org...]
‘The translation of this verse in Artscroll's Stone Edition of the Torah is "But flesh; with its soul its blood you shall not eat." In discussing this verse, the Talmudic sages and later rabbinical authorities expressed different possible degrees to which the flesh or the blood of an animal might be prohibited to a Gentile. The most lenient possibility offered was that if a piece of flesh is removed from a living animal, a Gentile must wait until the animal has died before he/she is allowed to eat that flesh. The stricter possibility offered was that if a piece of flesh is removed from a living animal, that flesh remains forbidden to be eaten, even after the animal has died.

One of the contemporary authorities for Torah Law, Rabbi Yoel Schwartz in Jerusalem, has stated that the stricter case is indeed the correct decision. In his writings he has stated that

"It is prohibited to eat meat that has been cut or torn off from a living creature, even from a dead animal, if the flesh was cut off when the animal was still alive, or when it was on the verge of dying (and not slaughtered according to Jewish law)... These rules of flesh from the living hold only toward animals and birds that have warm blood."’

Now for modern times. Limb can also be interpreted as organ or other internal part. I guess you haven’t heard about contemporary Chinese entrepreneurs keeping bears in cages (in agony) with tubes attached to their innards and “milking” them for bile secretions. This is to sell for Chinese medicine. Not strictly for nourishment, but not far off. Here are couple of links:

[Link: www.ttc.org...]
[Link: www.onevoice-ear.org...]

On a lighter note, writer Isaac Bashevis Singer once told an interviewer that he didn't eat chicken for health reasons. When asked, "Whose health?", he said, "The chicken's."

#158 ploome hineni

My point is your point, p h.

FWIW I live way too close to Paterson ...

In the uncertain days following 9-11 there were all kinds of rumors about the Arabs in Paterson planning something for us. For a few weeks after (certainly through the Holidays) there was a very visible Police presence in front of all the shuls in my community.

When my car was stolen it was found in Paterson.. the local cops told me that car thieves often head for there [b/c the Paterson cops don't have time to be concerned with little things like auto theft?].

#90 bigel:

There's really no reason to go to Paterson anymore if you don't have family there.

It is the "seat" of Passaic County; my father is there pretty often to research title records. There's also a Yeshiva in downtown Paterson.

Did somebody say chickens :)

I am 66, Jewish, and kosher...thanks for the sites ,BTW. We eat a lot of fish and vegetarian products, as we are both diabetic, but do eat poultry at least once a week, and usually veal or beef for Shabbat.

Whenever I see any site or ad from PETA , all I can think of is the ever-increasing countries in the EC that are trying to outlaw shechita, I go ballistic. Does anyone know the list? Switzerland, and Sweden, I believe, and the UK keeps trying to.

To the PETA fanatics, human life seems immaterial...what would they have said during WWII? I love animals, but there are those that are bred to be food. No one is forced to eat meat or fish...if they put as much time into finding a cure for the many medical conditions that plague humanity...Mary Tyler Moore is the most egregious; she is a Type I diabetic, and if not for pork insulin she would not be alive to scream about research on animals, damn it. Now almost all insulin is made from recombinant DNA...and there are some diabetics who still use pork insulin, as they did not adjust well to the switch. In Jewish law, life is most important, and even the most observant Jew can take pork insulin, or any medication that is necessary for their health that is animal or shellfish based, if there is no other one avaialble. It has just occured to me...what does the RoP do? Pork insulin???

Human insulin was not approved til 1982.

This article shows that because Shechita and Halal slaughtering of animals is so similiar, Jews and muslims have joined together to save this ritual that is so important.

Derision for the ones who did not show up?
I'll buy and support that.

However, best give some credit
to the 20 or so who did show up.

That was rather like a few generations
back a couple of dozen showing up
for an Anti-Klu Klux Klan Rally.

Think I am exagerating?
Who is cutting off heads these days?

Would YOU single yourself and your
family out for retribution like that?

#156 Iron Fist

You are the best! You have never posted anything that has offended me. Any one with their knickers in a knot has a problem..that post was from a semi troll, who has not posted since 6:28 PM Left Coast Time.

I saw the deleted post..nothing you would ever even think of, love.

Re Joisey and LongEyeland?#107 Bigel should Lawn-guy-land™ or I will steal it! Too funny!

Iron Fist, Charles would ban me before you...aha, but who is going to mess with an expert in martial arts, and a professional chef, too? :)

{{{Iron Fist}}}, and sleep well!

#35 Jersey Devil

Assuming that there are 200,000 muslims in New Jersey (see link below to 1990 numbers) and 24 turned out, then 0.012% of New Jersey's muslims turned out to express their outrage.

Imagine that! An American is decapitated by Jihadists and only 24 Muslims turn uo to express their outrage.

On the other hand, about 100 turned up in front of the French Embassy in Washngton to protest the decision of the French government to ban religious emblems from state schools. Thousands more protested in other cities across the world.

Yet only 24 Muslims turned up to protest the beheading of an innocent man by their co-religionists.

*spit*

By the way, were there really 24 protesting Muslims?? Or was there a fair share of Leftists who turned up just to boost the numbers???

Did they protest about Pearl or Berg? No? How surprising!!

Fact is that muslims are generally a cancer in western societies. Worse, there is a secodary growth known as the western left.

Islam believes in killing Jews, Christians and westerners. Islam seeks to overthrow western values, not to protect them. Islam is happy to use western freedoms and rights to ptrotect islam , but ignores such rights in non islamic society. So to desecrate a mosque is a humiliation of muslims. To destroy a synagogue is the will of their false god.

We are fighting a war. Democracy and freedom on one side, islam on the other. We all have to choose which side we are on. The left chose wrong.

162 Dan:

Have you read The Prophet of Doom?? If so, why didn't you tell us about it?! If not, I exhort you to go at once and commence!! Others with less patience may want to look for the link to the online version of Tea With Terrorists which presents the same facts in the form of a gripping novel.

Aref Assaf said it is important to make a distinction between Islam and terrorism.

Fight for Allah until all is for Allah.
---
The doomed go a land where gardens flow underneath, and my slaves go to a land where they can blow themselves up. When they blow up, we will give them new skins to blow themselves up again.
---
Religion of Pieces.

Grayp!

Couldn't post comments and then fell asleep along with kids...

No-we don't have sensitivity training! I was about to write my comments and then comments were stopped, sniff sniff.

My workplace just assumes that everyone is politically left wing. I remember the first time there seeing all the signs and adverts for all the 'progressive' causes...They are very careful with language, not to offend anyone (supposedly). I am one of about half a dozen Jews there but only one of two who practice, so to speak. Mine are the only kids in a Jewish school.

So, I purposely don't shy away from making my opinions known. That includes having a relative murdered by Islamofacist Arafat terror in Israel. That includes thinking that George W. Bush is a great man, and that includes educating people about Israel and Zionism. I talk about the evil of communism and the stupidity of our government, and my personal embarrasment at the knee-jerk anti-Americanism that has spread through our country like a cancer.

If they don't like it, they can screw themselves. And I mean it.

And you know what? I honestly believe I've made a difference. I've had several people come to me, and solicit my opinion about current events-not wanting to trust our filth-rot media.

Just wanted to clarify. It's politically correct, but no brainwashing sessions and I believe that one person can make a difference. I hope I have.

You cite what you have been told, but you don't cite what has been done.

Can you read? I'm citing personal experience with Muslims. I've worked with scads of 'em. I am go-principle investigator on grants with one. Did you read the bit about "Best man at a Jewish wedding?"?

You come here and label anyone who does not take them at their word because of taqqiya as bigots,

Now I'm convinced: you can't read, can you? Go back through my posts, and show me where I said that. Please.

and then when that is cited as grounds for distrust accuse US as setting up an unfalsifiable theory.

If the shoe fits, wear it. But I'd try reading first.

Ask them to prove THEIR contention. I'm not part of an umma going around beheading kufr. You are wrong. It is not impossible to demonstrate an person's honesty and I am willing to bet you would NEVER maintain that position about a non-Muslim.

You are in serious need of reading comprehension lessons.

YOU are the one who came here under the cloak of courage - you could be hauled into sensitivity training for posting here. True courage would be standing up to the culture that mandates that horseshit.

It must be great to make stuff up about what other people say! I guess that way you can conclusively demonstrate them to be wrong. "Cloak of Bravery"? Are you for real?

I will never be stuffed. You already are.

Yeah, and I am so on your list. ZZZzzz

My favorite line from Wm Blake (it was marginalia in one of his books) is: "To generalise is to be an idiot."

I prefer: To be or not to be, that always confused me.

Daymon Wayans.

Oops, make that Damon Wayans (and then bite me).

Hi all

Just when the thread was livening up last night, dang, my connection crashed. Just couldnt get back. Very annoying.

106 Perry

Thanks for the link. Interesting pic on the left.

Liberty covering her face with the flag. Wonder when she will adorn the hijab.

I kinda like

"To be or not to be, and then bite me."

now that you mention it.

#136 Katt

Myths about Atheism

I don't want you to think I'm singling you out; it's just that I've seen a lot of atheist bashing around here lately, and it is getting old.

There are, in fact, capitalist atheists (I am one, although I consider myself more agnostic).

Communism is not a synonym for atheism

Simply put, there is no inherent quality in atheism...the lack of belief in a god or gods...that exhorts people to kill, just as there is no inherent quality in theism...the belief in a god or gods...that exhorts people to kill. However, communism ( a system of beliefs that included atheism) did kill a lot of people, just as Islamofascism (a system of beliefs that includes theism) does kill a lot of people.

The president of the New Jersey chapter of an Arab-American group said incidents like Johnson’s killing always put the American Muslim community on the defensive

The American Muslim community should be on the defensive, since they do not show that they vehemently and completely denounce this action.

This feeble rally shows the true feelings of the Muslim community.

176 Beckula:

I agree with you, sorta...I mean I agree with what you write, but I don't agree with your link.

If you go to your link, it tries to draw this vast distinction between deaths in the name of political movement and a peculiar form of atheism known as Dialectical Materialism, (ie Marxism). Such a separation cannot be seriously considered, given that the atheists in question sought out clergy, supressed religion, and required members of the religious movements to proclaim their allegiance to a brand of Marxist political thought. Basically, its intellectually dishonesty that reminds one forcefully of some of the less thoughtful religious apologetics.

The problem with the arguments proposed is that atheism is not a set of belief systems that share a common belief, but a set of belief systems that shares a disbelief (or non belief, or lack of belief, or whatever). So its perfectly true to say that the people the Stalinists murdered were not murdered in the name of atheism per se, because atheism comprises many mutually exclusive belief systems. On the other hand, it is perfectly true to say that millions upon millions have been murdered in the name of some atheisms, just as its perfectly true to say that millions have died because of some theisms. So the evasion "Nobody has been murdered in the name of atheism" is at best self-serving propaganda, and at worst repugnant.

Aref Assaf said it is important to make a distinction between Islam and terrorism.

The difference ? Islam is terrorism with additive 'Allah' and role model of psychopathic pedophile courier Morehamhead.

Maybe we should call it 'Islamism' or 'Allahism' to make it distinct from terrorism.

Islamic meaning :
"It is important to make a distinction between terrorism on the one hand and RESISTING Jews on the other" ???

Islamic Glossary :
Bombing a busload of children in Sordid Wahabia is terrorism.
Bombing a busload of children in Israel is 'Resistance'.

It's a case of a small minority trying to give the vast majority a good name.

Or a few good apples healing the rotten caseful?

Or is it a small minority of ninety nine per cent giving the vast majority of one percent a bad name?

Uhller Isshaytan

AS I REMEMBER, THE MUSLIMS IN PATTERSON, NJ WERE DANCING IN THE STREETS ON 9-11-01.

CAN ANYONE CONFIRM?

Writer Mom,

Same thimg here. I have an office in a very liberal part of Denver. People come in, we chat and eventually they start bashing the Pres. My job is to seperate them from their cash so I don't want to PO anyone, but... Most of them only hear Dan, Peter and Tom. Start telling people the news 24 hours before the alphabet networks broadcast it certainly seems to give me some credibility. Their collective tones (the clients) have softened on the war and the Pres.

#178 Hhar

I think our problem is semantical. I contend that atheism is a single belief (not a belief system) that there is no god or gods. No more and no less. I mean, if the Communist Manifesto was solely about atheism, it would be pretty short, wouldn't it?

I think the communists targeted religion because they recognized what a powerful force it can be and they wanted to have total control over the people, wouldn't you agree? I would agree that they used atheism to do this (and to murder millions, just as Christianity and Islam used/use theism to do the same.

However, I don't come to the conclusion that theism must therefore be evil, and paint all *theists* with this broad brush, while it seems a lot of people have no difficulty painting all atheists with the Pol Pot brush.

I just reread your last paragraph and I think we agree basically...maybe I'm just being hypersensitive :^)

Beckula:

Interesting post. I agree that most of the propblem is semantic. I've been around this bush a few times with atheists of various stripes, and not a few have ferociously assailed the idea that atheism is a belief that there is no G-d. Strangely, the most ferocious assailants of the idea that atheism is a beleif (IMO) are often (tho not always) the ones that DO believe that there is no G-d, but I have to accept that for some, their atheism is simply a decision that the word "G-d" does not have a reasonably assignable meaning. That's why I worded my comment the way I did. For some atheism is a beleif, for some it is not, but that's an argument from psychology, not an argument from the positive or negative assertions of the belief system(s) in question.

That being said, I have to disagree with your evaluation of communism as an anti-theist politic. It isn't simply that all forces opposing communism needed to be vanquished: Dialectical materialism IS by definition atheism: it does not even tolerate a Longfellow-esque spirituality, or even the eccentric religious recluse: root and branch, theism is anathema. The presence of supernatural entities of any degree invalidates marxism's particular pretence of being a comprehensive scientific (in this case mechanistic) theory of human nature and of history.

Its a nit-pick, I suppose, but one that I pick at...

Beckula:

Additional reading:

This is a christian apologetics site which lists (some) criteria for determinng if the person you are talking to is a "fundamentalist" atheist. I can't say I agree with all of it, but I thought this one:

9. You spend hours arguing that a-theism actually means "without a belief in God " and not just " belief that there is no god" as if this is a meaningful distinction in real life.

was kinda funny. :-)

terp-law

I can confirm the muslims were dancing in the streets in Brooklyn, NY. Coney Island Avenue and McDonald Avenue under the L.

Queens shopkeepers jubilantly greeted customers...

#184 and 185 Hhar

RE: dialectical materialism, yes you would have to be an atheist to believe it, but it does not follow that all atheists believe in it. And even if they did, I'm not seeing the connection between believing that everything is matter and change takes place through a struggle of opposites and therefore you must kill people?

Seems like a big leap to me.

RE: Your link...how ironic that atheism is again branded with the Stalin, Pol Pot brush, yet Hitler wasn't a *true* Christian...I suppose it would be just as valid then if I just claimed that Stalin wasn't a *true atheist*. Didn't think so.

BTW, I would never claim that my cat is an atheist...she believes in a god...herself!

Did Hitler not institute atheism and declare that there was no room for religion in his empire. He replaced the Bible with Mein Kampf--now that's Christian.

Jubelum, Thanks for the link to Prophet of Doom!

I got serious about the Qur'an when some people i thot were Christians said it was from God. So i read it (the translated version so it doesn't really count i guess...) and was blown away by the savagery and total denial of God having a Son, and that nearly every other verse it seemed had the words "doomed" or "losers". So just from the title, i could tell this book would be right on. And it is.

If you want to see the little bit i've put up on the net comparing the Qur'an and the Bible, you can see it here:
Qur'an Bible Comparison

#187:

No. no, you misread me. I wasn't saying all atheists were marxists, or anything even remotely similar. All I was saying is that communism was anti-theist, not just atheist, and as such attacked the clergy for two reasons 1: Social political power and 2: anti-theism.

The reason that Marxism was anti-theist is because (as Engels pointed out) the supernatural knows no rules, and if it operated in human affairs, the mechanistic theories of marxist history could not be granted the 'scientific' accuracy they pretended to. I am NOT saying that atheists should always be assailed with "Stalin was an atheist", for the simple reason that atheism is far too diverse for such an implication to be reasonable. Just that the communist anti-theism WAS part and parcel of its atheism, and blaming it all on politics (as the web site you linked to did) is just wrong, and to me frankly sickening.

But no, I don't think Hitler was either an Orthodox Christian (he railed againsts St Paul's "Jewish" corruption of Christianity and denied the validity of the Catholic priesthood: See Hitler's Table Talk) or an atheist in the usual sense of the word either. Best to call him a Teutonic Spiritualist, and definitely a theist of sorts. Recall that Mein Kampf was propaganda, written by the master of lies. It is impossible to conclude that Hitler was a Theist of any sort by examining it. The bulk of German society was conventionally religious, and Hitler appealed to it. This is not to forgive the complicity of the German Lutheran churches, about which there is little doubt, but the individual case of Hitler is a little more complex. You need to do some reading if you are going to haul out Hitler as an example of anything in this crowd.

#188 Katt

You would have had to follow his link to see what I was talking about.

Seems I was not being hypersensitive after all, if the comments on the latest post on the blog are any indication.

Hhar:

After sleeping on it, I think you've lost some credibility posting that link.

#191 Beckula

OK, I lost some credibility. Care to explain why?

PS: I'm not Christian: I'm a practicing Jew. That's just so you don't think I'm evangelising or anything.