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Cheapening the National Debate

Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 7:00:45 pm PDT

Former New York mayor Ed Koch, another Bush Democrat, has some comments on Michael Moore’s agit-prop film that are worth reading: Koch: Moore’s propaganda film cheapens debate, polarizes nation. (Hat tip: Jheka.)

A year after 9/11, I was part of a panel discussion on BBC-TV’s “Question Time” show which aired live in the United Kingdom. A portion of my commentary at that time follows:

One of the panelists was Michael Moore, writer and director of the award-winning documentary “Roger & Me.” During the warm-up before the studio audience, Moore said something along the lines of “I don’t know why we are making so much of an act of terror. It is three times more likely that you will be struck by lightening than die from an act of terror.” I was aghast and responded, “I think what you have said is outrageous, particularly when we are today commemorating the deaths of 3,000 people resulting from an act of terror.” I mention this exchange because it was not televised, occurring as it did before the show went live. It shows where he was coming from long before he produced “Fahrenheit 9/11.”

Many in the audience assembled by the BBC included Americans and people from other nations. Their positive responses to Moore on this and other comments he made during the program convinced me that the producers had found a lair of dingbats when looking to fill the studio with an audience. Moore later called President Bush a “dummy,” denigrating him for having threatened Iraq with consequences including war if it did not comply with the United Nations resolutions to which it agreed when it was defeated in the 1991 Gulf War. Again, I couldn’t contain myself and said, “That’s what you radicals on the left always do. You don’t debate issues, you denigrate your opponents. You did it with President Reagan, saying he was dumb. After he left office, 600 speeches, many hand-written by him, demonstrated his high intelligence.”

In World Wars I and II, the U.S., suffering great casualties to its military personnel, saved the world, particularly in WWII, from occupation by the German Nazi Reich and Japanese empire. We currently are fighting the battle against a minority of fundamentalist Islamists whose objective is to destroy Western civilization. They are willing to use every act of terrorism from suicide bombers to hacking off heads to destroy and terrorize us into surrender. And Michael Moore weakens us before that enemy. How should we respond? With scorn, catcalls, the Bronx cheer and the truth. Of course, we should recognize the outrages and criminal acts committed by Americans in military service and civilians at the Iraqi prison Abu Ghraib. We should continue as we have done and take action to punish those involved. But we ought not in the media show again and again the pictures of the atrocities to simply flagellate ourselves and give aid and comfort to our enemies. A good rule of thumb might be to show the pictures of Abu Ghraib as many times as we show the beheadings of Danny Pearl, Nicholas Berg and Paul Johnson.

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96 comments

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1 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:03:52pm
A good rule of thumb might be to show the pictures of Abu Ghraib as many times as we show the beheadings of Danny Pearl, Nicholas Berg and Paul Johnson.

You mean make them disappear after 2 or 3 days?

2 Hhar  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:04:17pm

Well, yeah, but Koch is Jewish, see, and that means he's not "objective"....

Well it also means that he knows what the beheading of Dan Pearl meant, in a way that people like Mr Moore never grasp.

3 ddd  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:04:20pm

Great article
Ed represents a decling portion of the Democratic party.

4 ddd  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:06:10pm

#2
Weinstien of Miramax does not know he is Jew.
I guess he would have objected toChurchill invading Germany in 1936.

5 Hhar  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:11:07pm

ddd

Being a Jew is like being a guy in that most guys know exactly what the phrase "a kick in the nuts" means. Some just don't, and never will. I have no idea why.

Being Jewish usually means that you know that you are a target, by virtue simply of the fact that you are a Jew. Some Jews just don't get it: they don't respond rationally to the fact that they are a target, or even recognise their status as a target. They are just oblivious to reality.

6 Pete(Detroit)  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:11:43pm

Pointing out Moore's flawed logic is about as effective as Bill Cosby lashing out at the "black community" Feels great, obvious stuff that should have been said ages ago, falls on deaf ears.
>sigh<
Moore's work tends to inspire circle jerks of LLL's shouting "yeah, right on!" to each other, and bashers doing the same. Other than pretty effectively deviding people into the two camps (to which they pretty much already knew they belonged) does it REALLY accomplish anything?
Domestically, that is. Is USEful anti-American agit prop abroad, I expect...

7 Skippy  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:13:44pm

Michael Moore: Axis Sally and Leni Reifenstahl in one odious homegrown package. Sigh.

8 NY Nana  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:18:19pm

I respect Ed Koch far more now than I did when he was in office. They say that with age comes wisdom, and in his case it is very true.

We saw him in person once, when they held a Memorial Service for John Lennon, in Central Park.

Somehow I do not envision him being invited to speak at the dhummocrat farce. Ah, but look who will be, which might be a real blunder..uh, 2 among many: Clinton, Thereeeeeza to speak at Dem Convention

So far no mention of albore and dean doing a duet screed shriek....

9 Connecticut Yankee  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:22:17pm

Mark Steyn has just posted his review of F9/11:

I can understand the point of being Michael Moore: there's a lot of money in it. What's harder to figure out is the point of being a devoted follower of Michael Moore. Apparently, the sophisticated, cynical intellectual class is so naïve it'll fall for any old hooey peddled by a preening opportunist burlesque act. If the Saudis were smart, they'd have bought him up years ago, established his anti-Saudi credentials, and then used him to promote the defeat of their nemesis Bush.

Hmm. Maybe they don't need to. Stick him in a headdress and he looks like King Fahd's brother. All I'm saying is connect the dots.

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

10 Iron Fist  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:24:06pm

Shit. Just cut myself.

I always draw the line when I can't just play with my butterfly-knife without cutting myself. Stupid, really.

I was doing a reverse open after a normal open and close.

Ya want the edge pointed away from the hand.

Gah.

Trivial cut, but the Rule is the Rule :-P

Goodnight Guys and Dolls.

11 Carolynn  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:25:17pm

yeah but remember, he wrote this on the assumption Moore and his cult could figure out who the real enemies are.

no, its not halliburton.

12 Insufficiently Sensitive  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:25:40pm

If Koch were representative of Democrats, they'd be a viable political party and a viable choice to lead the country.

But he's not, and they're more like a party of jealous entitlement-seekers with a foreign policy by Appeasement Central (however you say that in French). Pity.

13 Mashiki  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:27:58pm

Interesting article. But not surprising from that scum-sucker Moore, nor in it's response from others. Easier to stick their heads in the sand and pretend it will all go away rather then face the possibility of change.

OT: I think Canada is doomed. WTF are people thinking in voting for the Lieberals?

14 Carolynn  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:29:20pm
If Koch were representative of Democrats, they'd be a viable political party and a viable choice to lead the country.

Its such a pity isnt it?

15 Oktober  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:30:08pm

OT -

type in "Berlusconi" in google image search. the first picture is a revealing look at Italy's prime minister

16 Maui Girl  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:32:51pm

I keep emailing this Michael Moore stuff to the news editor of our local LLL newspaper. Even invited him/her to visit LGF.Not sure it's getting through however but I guess if I get a response I'll know for sure. I'll just wait here and hold my breath. Holding.........turning blue......about to explode..whewwwww.

Guess I shouldn't hold my breath!

17 Robert Crawford  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:34:35pm
Michael Moore: Axis Sally and Leni Reifenstahl in one odious homegrown package. Sigh.

I heard a great name for him over on Rantburg: Lumpy Riefenstahl.

18 Elcid  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:36:10pm

moore is a guilt ridden, horseass piece of leftist shit, and there are plenty from whench he came. moore is an abomination.

The people that believe moore is a 'hero' or an 'artist' or 'brilliant' are sniveling weasels, (listening france) that hide behind our documents that gave them the right to be sniveling weasels (listening American leftists). These weasels have become worse SINCE 9/11.

This kind of person must be routed, this November with an overwhelming defeat of their standard bearer john kerry. These people must be put into a 'saddam rathole' and forgotten.

19 Americain  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:37:53pm

#2 Well, yeah, but Koch is Jewish, see, and that means he's not "objective"....


God bless Ed Koch, he can see the "bigger picture". Yeah, he's Jewish, but he is well aware of what genocide has done to his people and many other peoples. He knows what is at stake. Islamic extremists wnat to kill or convert us all. Micheal Mooron along with his leftist ilk only care about regaining their power, no matter the cost.

20 roach[deleted]  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:54:12pm
21 rufusalice  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:55:10pm

#14

The real shame is that so few on the Democratic side want to listen to Ed Koch, Zell Miller, Joe Liebermann, or anyone else who sees the war on terror for what it is...a real war against real fanatics who want to see us destroyed.

22 gymnast  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 5:58:18pm

Gee, I would sure like to interview Mikee Moore after one of the terrorists cut his head off just so he could give his impressions of the inconsequential experience. On second thought I would rather play kickball with his head after they cut it off.

23 isayalotofthings  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:00:29pm
24 andrew  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:04:04pm

#22 gymnast

I'm 95% certain that his heads weighs 83 lbs, and would therefore be detrimental to your podiatric health.

25 militarybrat  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:06:22pm

Okay, I'm sure I'll feel like an idiot for asking this, but I've been sheltered, OKAY?

What's a "Bronx Cheer"?

26 peace be upon me  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:06:24pm

If you want to see the flip-side of Michael Moore's film, check out Showtimes, "D.C. 9/11: Time of Crisis," which had the participation of Bush, and no explanation of his Saud-centrist' White House doormatocracy.

No second thoughts YET about Bush? What's more neo-con than the National Review? According to their Euro-watch writer, it is time to admit - that being the opposite of denial - that the Iraq intervention is in the toilet and can only yield an al-Qaeda ul-Jihad (Base of Muslim Aggression).

... unless we do something radically different, we will lose in Iraq. It's, like, fate. Iraq is like Vietnam in one important respect, and maybe it's time we finally learned our lesson.

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Counter-Terror Rule #1: Never Leave A Power Vacuum Where Islamofascists Are Positioned To Fill It.

Counter-Terror Rule #2: Never Go To War On Behalf of Leaders Who Lack Public Purpose, Or You Will Pay In Lives For Their Irresolution.

Counter-Terror Rule #3: Never Project Weakness Or Offer Armistice, And Never Offer Terms of Agreement To A Mortal Enemy.

Counter-Terror Rule #4: When The Enemy Causes Death, Retaliate With Mega-Death So As To Make Them Aware That Any Terror Cost Paid Will, In The Balance, Yield No Measurable Benefit.

Counter-Terror Rule #5: Never Apologise For Errors Or Omissions That Cost Lives Of Either Collaterals or Civilian Supporters, Because Doing So Presents Ersatz Legitimation to the Terror Cause, To Which All Blame Must Be Cast.

Counter-Terror Rule #6: Remember That Use Of Weapons Of Mass Destruction Is Cost-Effective, And Use Them Against Any Demographic Entity Where Terrorists Have A Power Base So As To Deny The Front-Line Enemy A Rear Guard.

engineer + reaganite = 2 human doormats

27 Hhar  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:07:07pm

#24 andrew:

Yeah, but his head is probably soft and squishee-ish, so it would be like kicking an 83 lb stale wet marshmallow. Bad for your podiatric health to be sure, but not because of its weight.

28 andrew  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:09:20pm

#27 Hhar

Heh...like a giant used tissue you forgot was in your pocket.

29 Cornholio  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:13:18pm
He knows the time with the fresh Gucci watch, he's even more over than my mayor Ed Koch.
30 gymnast  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:13:20pm

#24, Andrew. I checked your figures, and it turns out that Moores hat size would correspond to an 84 pound head based on his ego and self concept. In reality 84 pounds is the weight of the fat on the left cheek of his ass. The volume of his head corresponds perfectly to 3 gallons of cottage cheese, about 21 pounds, and I have steel toed boots and a backup plan.

31 andrew  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:15:53pm

#28 me

Some things are better left unsaid.

32 gymnast  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:18:46pm

#26, PBUM. You and Moore going to cowrite his next "documentary"?

33 Hhar  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:21:08pm

andrew: Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwww. And I thought I was gross :)

gymnast: I have this image of a thin-walled, three- gallon white plastic tub full of said cottage cheese, and I have some steel toed boots as well, and mebbe put a bit of ketchup in that cottage cheese.....


(shakes head to dispel fantasy)

34 tommoon  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:21:11pm

# 26 peace be upon me

You forgot to mention that the article was written November 7, 2003. If you cannot be honest in that fact, I won't brother to read anything else you post.

35 Pete(Detroit)  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:25:56pm

#25 militarybrat  
What's a "Bronx Cheer"?

Similar to a "raspberry" - the sound you get by holding your toungue in your teeth, approx 1.3cm back from the tip, and exhaling across it, producing a sputtering similar to a balloon flying around the room. A kilo of 'kraut and brats' and a six pack often generates the same effect.

36 militarybrat  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:33:35pm

Pete (Detroit)

Thanks. And phew. I was a little worried about what I was asking. You never know...

37 Right Wing Conspirator  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:36:58pm

Chunky Butt actually made a great documentary. I am just waiting for what happened to Mickey and Mallorey Knox?

38 reaganite  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:38:18pm

Wow, I've been gone for two days and peace be upon me Camel Prophet still can't get his head out of my ass!

engineer + reaganite = 2 human doormats

Camel Prophet, how ya doing you old hemorrhoid?

39 ms heather  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:43:42pm

I hope this isn't a dumb question, but is "Roger Moore" the actor who played James Bond, or some unfortunate soul related to Mikey Moore-on?

40 SwampWoman  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:46:09pm

#38 Reaganite

Wow, I've been gone for two days and peace be upon me Camel Prophet still can't get his head out of my ass!

Damn, y'all got yer own personal proctologist! Y'all so special.

41 Hhar  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:46:51pm

Follow up thought for gymnast. OK, so take the plastic tub full of cottage cheese and ketchup, and coat it with corn syrup. Then roll it around on the lawn so that old grass clippings stick to it. Throw stewed prunes at it until two stick, and slap a piece of liver beneath them for the mouth. warm the whole thing to 98.5 degrees in a microwave. Staple a pair of glasses in place. Then take steel toed boots.....

(shakes head to self of persistant fantasy)

(shakes it again. Goes to bed.....)

42 Sasquatch  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:49:58pm

I've written it before and I'll write it again...

What's the difference between the Hindenburg and Michael Moore?

One is a flaming Nazi gasbag and the other is a blimp.

43 reaganite  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:52:53pm

#40 SwampWoman

Damn, y'all got yer own personal proctologist! Y'all so special.

Yeah, but the rat bastid needs to shave, he's really chapping my ass!

44 gbl  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:53:54pm

I wish there were more Democrats the likes of Koch or Zell Miller. As a son of "Southern Democrats" who have not voted for a Democrat since Jimmy Carter I sometimes feel and standout like a "rightwing" wacko here in Los Angeles. But when you boil it down, the likes of Koch and Miller are using basic common sense to make their points. After talking with my neighbors on matters of politics all I want to do is retreat to my house and bash my head against a tile floor in frustration. These yuppy, tree hugging, liberals just don't get it. I have attempted to understand their reasoning on Iraq and EVEN on Afghanistan to no avail. (We should not be in either place they say). For highly educated individuals they know little but talk a lot. They are unaware of Iraqi rocket engines showing up in Jordan or the Iraqi rocket engines and yellowcake inspected in the Netherlands by the IAEA, the progress made in Iraq and Afghanistan or "Spirit of America" a local organization assisting Iraqi's. They can however tell me all about the "best movie they've seen" -- F9/11. Like I said sometimes I just want to bash my head in. With voices like Koch and Miller out there I still have hope (very slim however). When the question turned to me this weekend during a BBQ regarding why I thought it was so important to fight this war, I took a long cool slip of my beer and pointed to their kids playing in the background. After a long pause and silence one of my friend's wife asked what did I mean pointing to their children? I told them "if we don't take care of these killers today, they (their kids) will have to take care of the killers tomorrow. Just imagine what kinds of weapons they could have in 5, 10 or 15 years from now. You have to understand something, these terrorists want to kill all of us -- and I mean all of us. That's why I'm for this war." Talk about a conversation killer, I just launched it. The conversation following what seemed to be a lifetime of silence with what I hope was some "reflection" turned to summer vacations, the price of homes and what the wife would be driving next year. I doubt I'll be invited back for the next BBQ. After reading Koch's comments, who cares.

45 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:54:22pm

Speaking of agit-prop trash, I found this link at Tim Blair's:

Certainly the destruction of the WTC was spectacular – and powerfully symbolic. Which is why the same building had been subjected to a less successful terrorist attack eight years earlier. In objective terms, September 11 was infinitesimal. For the mighty US to lose a couple of large skyscrapers in a nation with cities as full of these perpendicularities as a jungle is of trees, would hardly destroy its prospects. What it did do was get the President off the golf links and back into Washington – and give him a new lease of political life.

Infinitesimal? WTF??? 3,000 dead is "infinitesimal"? Phillip Adams has brought DU filth into the mainstream, outdoing Markos "Screw 'Em" Zuniga in the process.

46 reaganite  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 6:57:51pm

#45 Spiny Norman

When I was a teenage communist half a century ago I knew a few comrades who gave the Libs their first preferences.

I got that far into your link and knew enough about this asshat to not worry about the rest.

47 ajf  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:03:28pm

#45 Spiny Norman

As disgusting as it is, that column is not much different from what Moore and much of the left have to say.

48 Julia the Horrible  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:05:18pm

# 25: Okay, I'm sure I'll feel like an idiot for asking this, but I've been sheltered, OKAY?

What's a "Bronx Cheer"?

The Bronx Cheer, as mentioned before, is a spitting thing ("raspberry'), and always is connnected with disapproval.

I happen to despise spitting, as many people do, and to be the recipient of it is most disgusting.

Yet Michael Moore earns my intellectual Bronx Cheer for his attitude that money made from sensationalism is better than character that engenders respect. He has a talent for filmmaking. Too bad it is perverted.

49 Alouette  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:05:53pm
50 Baillie  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:06:14pm

So is Mr. Moore the Duke or is he the Dauphin?

51 SwampWoman  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:08:13pm

#43 Reaganite

Yeah, but the rat bastid needs to shave, he's really chapping my ass!

No, no, you don't want no stubble burns. Rip that hair out with hot wax (the hotter, the better).

52 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:10:26pm
that column is not much different from what Moore and much of the left have to say.

I know, but other than the Fat Bastard and the Morlocks at DU, I never expected to see that horrid attitude in a "mainstream" publication, online or not.

Apparently this Adams twat is the Alexander Cockburn down-under.

53 reaganite  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:15:20pm

#51 SwampWoman

No, no, you don't want no stubble burns. Rip that hair out with hot wax (the hotter, the better).

How about duct tape?

54 Spiny Norman  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:16:58pm

reaganite,

How about duct tape?

On pay-per-view?

55 reaganite  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:20:18pm

#54 Spiny Norman

On pay-per-view?

Nah, freeview, you know, like all the has-beens that are trying to get there fame back? AKA, the one's who can't get anyone to actually pay to watch...

56 reaganite  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:20:57pm

GRRRR, should read their...

57 transferthem  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:27:11pm

Koch is astute. He summarised the left beautifully when he pointed out that moore ONLY denigrates and never debates.

moore is aiding the enemy and should be branded a traitor. How would the left like arguments along the lines of - we on the right don't know why you LLL's are so uptight about one little war as we are all more likely to die of old age as get shot in a war in iraq.

I regard him as an antisemite because of his view that Israel is responsible for everything bad in the world today. He is antidemocratic beause he only tries to denigrate elected leaders (something he will never be) and even interfered with the Canadian election by urging a left vote. There are question marks as to whether his films do or do not comntain outright lies.

I regard him as a spokesman for terrorists. I pray that he gets what is due to him from Hashem.

58 Pete(Detroit)  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:39:47pm

#53 reaganite  
How about duct tape?

Inefficient - it's just not sticky enough to do the job right, and you have to repeat, severally. Fun as the pastime might be, I'm sure you DO have other things to do w/ your life. Coating the tape w/ SuperGlue(tm) first would probably help.
Tweezers are always a good bet - takes a while, but it's SMOOTH when you're finished.
I seem to recall my grandmother singing hairs off a chicken w/ a match, perhaps a lighter would have similar effect?
You might have to 'blow him a kiss' past the lighter for maximum effect, however.
I reccommend Johnsonville Garlic brats, and Mickey's Big Mouth.

59 reaganite  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:41:47pm

#58 Pete(Detroit)

Inefficient - it's just not sticky enough to do the job right, and you have to repeat, severally.

Umm, dude? That's the point!

60 Pete(Detroit)  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:44:47pm

#59 reaganite 
Umm, dude? That's the point!

Oh, sorry, I thought it was a relief mission for your chapped lips. Didn't realize it was goign to be a workout video.
Humblest apols. (you ARE da man)

61 Pete(Detroit)  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:46:39pm

Arrrgh, GOING...
PIMF!

62 reaganite  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:51:45pm

#61 Pete(Detroit)
Camel Prophet is a long time hater of me. He has a new 'nic but he can't quite grasp the concept that his writing style gives him away. I have long since stopped trying to debate him. Gratuitous insults are the only way to go these days.

63 steve miller  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 7:59:16pm

It can't be Camel Prophet! I mean, where are the long, pointless quotes from other articles? Where is the interminable use of bold to really make things hard to read? Where's the sense of "I'll keep shouting and raving the same nonsense louder and louder, because SURELY the reason no one agrees with me is that they can't HEAR me"?

I mean... wait a minute. I see your point.

Nevermind.

64 Pete(Detroit)  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 8:08:08pm

Gathered that, actually.
Appearences to the contrary, I'm not quite that thick. ((-'pb

Somehow, the 'blue flame school of permanent hair removal' was an even better image (to me) than a three roll duct taping.
But, to each their own.
Peace, out.

65 reaganite  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 8:12:44pm

#63 steve miller

I mean... wait a minute. I see your point.

LOL, good thing I wasn't drinking!

66 peace be upon me  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 8:55:16pm

Real-Vet distrusts carpet-humping jihad-monkeys:

[Link: www.mensnewsdaily.com...]

Bush Blew It! Dickwads deny it!

67 peace be upon me  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 9:01:19pm

steve miller flies like an a-hole:

Be nice to me, I'm new here.

Something (would-like-to-be-a)reaganite can appreciate:
[Link: www.zippythepinhead.com...]

Add a couple of your own rules.

Counter-Terror Rule #1: Never Leave A Power Vacuum Where Islamofascists Are Positioned To Fill It.

Counter-Terror Rule #2: Never Go To War On Behalf of Leaders Who Lack Public Purpose, Or You Will Pay In Lives For Their Irresolution.

Counter-Terror Rule #3: Never Project Weakness Or Offer Armistice, And Never Offer Terms of Agreement To A Mortal Enemy.

Counter-Terror Rule #4: When The Enemy Causes Death, Retaliate With Mega-Death So As To Make Them Aware That Any Terror Cost Paid Will, In The Balance, Yield No Measurable Benefit.

Counter-Terror Rule #5: Never Apologise For Errors Or Omissions That Cost Lives Of Either Collaterals or Civilian Supporters, Because Doing So Presents Ersatz Legitimation to the Terror Cause, To Which All Blame Must Be Cast.

Counter-Terror Rule #6: Remember That Use Of Weapons Of Mass Destruction Is Cost-Effective, And Use Them Against Any Demographic Entity Where Terrorists Have A Power Base So As To Deny The Front-Line Enemy A Rear Guard

68 tommoon  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 9:24:19pm

#66

I believe Gunny Sergeant Segel is expressing what most of us feel, Iraq is only round one. I have no ideal why you would post an article in direct contrast to your assumption, that Bush is wrong.

69 tommoon  Mon, Jun 28, 2004 9:28:23pm

Actually, the Gunny says Iraq is round two, round one probably being Afganistan.

70 andrew2  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 12:05:16am

Koch is a no -nonsense guy who is fair and calls it like he sees it--New York Style.

71 leo (dissident view from Berlin)  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 12:29:14am

Michael Moore translated to reality:

"I don't understand why we are making so much of a warning shot. It is three times more likely that you will be struck by a meteorite than die from a warning shot."

Wow, that's cheap.

72 leo (dissident view from Berlin)  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 12:38:20am

Koch:

In World Wars I and II, the U.S., suffering great casualties to its military personnel, saved the world, particularly in WWII, from occupation by the German Nazi Reich and Japanese empire. We currently are fighting the battle against a minority of fundamentalist Islamists whose objective is to destroy Western civilization.

Sorry, the distinction is not between "fundamentalists" and "moderates", it is between theocracy and democracy. But this argument reminds me that I tried to find a translation for the Islamic concept of the Ummah. The Ummah is the single all-embracing community of the supreme that is transcending all geographical borders and national identities. Turns out that the closest German translation is Reich.

73 Millie Woods  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 2:07:18am

So being a recovering academic, I'm willing to put Moore's lightning strike deaths vs terrorism caused deaths in any given year to the test. Guess which number will be greater? Mikey is the real brain dead man but numbers do tend to scare the lefty-pinko fascist brigade - apart from the figures on their income statements that is.

74 Baldy  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 2:21:49am

OT: Al-Hothy Appeals, 200 Killed or Wounded (Yemen Times)

While the newspaper is being printed, bloody confrontations continue for the third consecutive week around the Mran mountains in Saddah Governorate between security forces, using warplanes, tanks, missile, and other heavy weaponry, and tens of followers of Sheikh Hussein Badr Al-Deen Al-Hothy, a former member of parliament and former leader of Al-Haq Party, whose followers are equipped with light arms and rocket-propelled grenades...>(Sheikh Al-Hothy): “Allah Akbar (God is great), death to America and Israel, victory to Islam and the Muslim”.
75 Baldy  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 2:54:19am

OT: Assad in China a Message That Syria Will Not be Constricted by US Pressures (Monday Morning, Lebanon 6/28)

On another level, Syria can buy military technology, but only if it pays the price. Chinese President Hu Jintao told his Syrian counterpart that his country was ready to sell Damascus (relatively) modern weapons if it could get the price in cash.
76 Elcid  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 3:01:22am

Lets us not leave a Joe Lieberman or an Evan Bayh or a John Breaux, (Breaux will not be returning to the Senate) Zell Miller, along with Da Mayor, the sensible and reasonable side of Democrats.

These individuals also see the side of sanity and reality. Lo' they say the will vote kerry, remember the actual vote is a vote known only to the person whom just pulled a lever, punched a ballot or touched a screen.

Koch disagrees with just about every domestic policy that Bush has put in place or is/has contemplated, BUT Koch and the above mentioned also know, that fighting this 'war' that the ENTIRE world is involved in, with 'religious' killers must be fought and WON, OR nothing else (social programs, school funding, etc.) Will MATTER.

77 steve miller  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 3:26:48am

'tis fun to play with the trolls. They get so foaming-at-the-mouth irrational when we note that they are mere fools and mountebanks.

The latest troll (MUST I remind you DNFTT?) obviously is desperately trying NOT to use ALL BOLD CAPS but one can tell it is a longing held fast by a chain that is close to breaking.

A few more postings and the troll will explode, I think.

78 DP111  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 3:27:29am

26 peace be upon..

You have support here by Ralph Peters in the NYPOST

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

79 Axiom  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 3:27:59am

I saw this movie last night. I really only have a few comments.

1) See the movie. Don't pay though. Get some Moore lunatic to pay for you.

2) The audience is without shame. During the movie there is a scene where Lila Lipscomb is reading her deceased son's last letter home from Iraq. He writes that he disagrees with the war and that he wants Bush to lose the next election. Mind you, she was only half way through the letter and the audience was trying to listen, but there were other people in the audience that could not control themselves. They started cheering when she read that part. They were hooting and hollering making a mockery of arguably the most sincere moments of the film.

I do think people should see this film for alone they get a perfect glimpse of Leni Reifensthal redux. It's really despicable how Moore uses the editing in this film. I thought that comparing Moore to Rush was relevant, but Rush has fun with elected officials. Moore uses dead soldiers and their family members as stagehands to bash bush. Next to Moore, Rush Limbaugh is Ghandi.

80 dazoid81  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 4:17:01am

I'm sure it's been posted before, but I've only been here for 3 days and haven't seen it... so take a look what Christopher Hitchins has to say about MM

. . . Moore's affected and ostentatious concern for black America is one of the most suspect ingredients of his pitch package. In a recent interview, he yelled that if the hijacked civilians of 9/11 had been black, they would have fought back, unlike the stupid and presumably cowardly white men and women (and children). Never mind for now how many black passengers were on those planes—we happen to know what Moore does not care to mention: that Todd Beamer and a few of his co-passengers, shouting "Let's roll," rammed the hijackers with a trolley, fought them tooth and nail, and helped bring down a United Airlines plane, in Pennsylvania, that was speeding toward either the White House or the Capitol. There are no words for real, impromptu bravery like that, which helped save our republic from worse than actually befell. The Pennsylvania drama also reminds one of the self-evident fact that this war is not fought only "overseas" or in uniform, but is being brought to our cities. Yet Moore is a silly and shady man who does not recognize courage of any sort even when he sees it because he cannot summon it in himself. To him, easy applause, in front of credulous audiences, is everything

The Lies of Michael Moore. By Christopher Hitchens

81 dazoid81  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 4:38:51am

"Iraq captors *free Turk hostages*"

ohhh... I get it. Would somebody bring up the term "Ethnic Cleansing" already? It's what they're doing... if you're not like us, off with your head. if you're like us, we'll give you a chance to live if you promise not to support people who aren't like us...

82 gbl  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 5:02:13am

dazoid81 ,

Interesting read of BBC article. What stood out for me is the comment by these thugs that they were release in part due to "protests" in Turkey over the weekend.

To me this is solid proof the the protesters play right into the hands of terrorists and are willing participants in their activities.

83 V the K  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 5:05:25am

Oh, this is freakin' great... Liberal Democrats' Priorities: Keeping Preference Policies in Place More Important Than Sending Needed Armor and Equipment to Troops in the Field


It would seem a no-brainer then for Congress to get behind a system to speed up delivering essential materiel. But that's not what happened when Rep. Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, introduced legislation to allow the secretary of defense to bypass the military's bureaucracy to meet urgent battlefield needs--even running down to Home Depot or Radio Shack, if necessary.

There's also little doubt that it would work. The Army ran a similar program successfully in Afghanistan. In that conflict part of the 82nd Airborne and all of the 101st Airborne found themselves without vital equipment as the invasion neared. Realizing the calamity that could ensue, the Army brass quickly rolled out the Rapid Fielding Initiative, and in a matter of days and weeks got equipment to the troops that normally would have taken months or even years to deploy.

When his bill came up for a vote two weeks ago--as a standalone bill--the tally was 285-97 in favor. Leading the opposition was the Congressional Black Caucus, apparently concerned that preferences in government contracting would go by the boards. Of the caucus's 36 members, 18 voted against the bill and another 10 abstained. Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi also abstained--despite her repeated attacks on the administration for not getting necessary equipment to the troops.

84 CopsWife  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 5:23:21am

Why oh why wasnt that creepy overgrown blowhard moore visiting the WTC on Sep 11/01(top floor of course)....perhaps if the next building or plane to be taken down by islamic trash contains his wife or some other member of his family it will change his views about the threat islam is to the world...but knowing that slimy cow he would just cash in on it by making another movie showing his wifes splattered remains while he yowls on about how it was bush's fault....I did not and will not see that movie....I suffered through columbine (I did not pay I saw it on our movie station...I will NEVER pay to see anything this jackass makes) and I wont ever suffer through another halfbaked, half-truth, twisted crappy movie by him.

85 sefton  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 5:33:30am

When Ed Koch was mayor of New York city he would often
begin speeches by saying,
" So...how am I doin'?"

Pretty damn good, Ed, pretty damn good.

86 JustAHouseWife  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 5:58:57am

#81, daziod81,
I've read that review. this part just makes me sick

"In a recent interview, he yelled that if the hijacked civilians of 9/11 had been black, they would have fought back, unlike the stupid and presumably cowardly white men and women (and children)"


If if if if if...

If MM takes plane I bet he has to buy two or three seats just for his butt to sit in.

If MM had been on the hijacked plane he could have stood up; jumped up and down and sent the jet into a rolling spin.

If MM been on the plane they could have used his head as a battering ram to brake into the cock pit...

and, peace be upon me:

Someone wise once uttered:

"I pray for the man who actually takes the 1st step instead of worrying about the next 1,000"

peace be upon me + keyboard= blah blah blah

STOP GLOBAL WHINING

87 Jollyblogger  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 6:12:13am

And to make matters worse, Moore feeds on this negative publicity - he uses it to propel his movies in the theatres. Little things like truth and rationality don't seem to have a place in his world.

88 Geepers  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 6:32:34am

JustAHouseWife (#86),

peace be upon me + keyboard= blah blah blah

LOL.

STOP GLOBAL WHINING

And that's even better.

89 JustAHouseWife  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 6:51:52am

Yes, Geepers.
I'm having "STOP GLOBAL WHINING" painted on the back of my vehicle or plastered on my forehead, can't decide which yet but it needs to be done. LOL

90 Rugby the Rat  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 7:03:56am
#8 NY Nana 6/28/2004 07:18PM PST

I respect Ed Koch far more now than I did when he was in office. They say that with age comes wisdom, and in his case it is very true.

OT!! dear ny nana, i am rugby and i am a rat. thank you for postign the link to the nice page w/ instructstions to make playthings for RATS!!! it was very thoughtful of you lady. you are like the gramma i never knew!!! ♥ ♥ ♥

XOXOXO
rugby

ps. ok i wrote her the g.d. thak you note can i have the swiming pool back NOW??!

91 Geepers  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 7:07:48am

JustAHouseWife, Why choose? Do both! :-)

92 Throbert McGee  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 7:12:45am
#51 SwampWoman

Yeah, but the rat bastid needs to shave, he's really chapping my ass!

No, no, you don't want no stubble burns. Rip that hair out with hot wax (the hotter, the better).

Why bother with painful hot wax when you can use the best-kept beauty secret of the Middle East?

93 Jheka  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 7:26:37am

Ed Koch, Zell Miller, Tom Lantos, Joe Lieberman ... there are plenty of decent, sensible Democrats out there. However, in today's party they have no voice. YOu won't hear a peep out of them during the upcoming convention. You want to know who you will see on stage ? Al Gore, Howard Dean, Al Sharpton, The Keebler Elf (um, I mean Kucinich) and every other waste of space that has made anti-Bush noises over the past 3 years. One can only hope and pray that Michael Moore will be there ... and will speak.

94 V the K  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 8:10:52am

#93 - Jheka --- The DNC convention is shaping up to be an orgy of Bush-hatred that will make the Wellstone Memorial look like a chess tournament.

95 EE  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 11:15:13am

Mr. Mayor, when you served as mayor of NYC you would travel around the city and ask people: How'm I doing?

I read your article, Mr. Mayor, and I want you to know that you are doing fine. Keep up the good work.

96 Crapulentis_Sum  Tue, Jun 29, 2004 12:46:51pm

The frothing at the mouth that will be the Democratic National Convention will resemble what happens when dogs contract rabies. The negativity will be so strong and palpable that the Earth's magnetic field will be effected (which may also explain the lack of moral compass most of the LLL in the US suffer from).

The solution ? Ignore it, go out, have fun, enjoy the summer days. Life is too short to go around miserable all the time.......


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