LGF

We Must Be Allowed to Criticise Islam

Sat, Jul 10, 2004 at 6:08:39 pm PDT

Here’s a must-read op-ed by Will Cummins in Britain’s Telegraph, decrying Home Secretary David Blunkett’s proposal for “religious hate” laws specifically designed to shield Islam from criticism: We must be allowed to criticise Islam.

In the time of Marcus Aurelius, Christianity was a growing force within the Roman Empire. His ministers asked him if the state should join the non-Christian majority in attacking the new religion, or seek to protect it. The Emperor’s reply is found in his Meditations. The state’s response to Christianity, he said, or to anything else, should be determined by one simple question: “What is the thing in itself? What does it do?”

Today, the Government faces a similar dilemma regarding Islam. In response, the Home Secretary announced plans last week to make vilification of Islam a crime. He insisted that his law to “ban incitement to religious hatred” was meant to defend every faith. However, only Muslims have asked for immunity. The legislation would “close a loophole”, David Blunkett observed, because inciting hatred of people on racial grounds is illegal in the UK, but inciting hatred of them on the grounds of belief is not.

The problem is that a virulent hatred of Muslims can no more be racism than a virulent hatred of Marxists or Tories. Nobody is a member of a race by choice. Such groups are protected from attack because it is unfair to malign human beings for something they cannot help. However, nobody is a member of a community of belief except by choice, which is why those who have decided to enter or remain within one are never protected. Were such choices not open to the severest censure, we could no longer call our country a democracy.

It is a red herring for supporters of Mr Blunkett’s law to say that Muslims should be shielded by the race laws because Jews and Sikhs are. It is the racial persons of Jews and Sikhs that are protected, not their beliefs. In any case, Sikhism and Judaism are race cults which actively discourage converts. It is almost impossible to become a member of either religion unless you are racially Jewish or Punjabi. They are diametrically opposed to inclusive ideologies like Christianity or Islam, which seek to convert everybody.

Some propose special protection for Muslims by saying that Islam is a racial identity because three of the four schools of Islamic law enjoin faithful Muslims to murder anyone who wishes to leave the faith, thus limiting every Muslim’s freedom of action. But is this a point in Islam’s favour? And is this the sort of religion we want to throw people into prison for condemning?

To argue that Islam should have special protection because it is a “religion” while Marxism or Conservatism are “merely philosophies” is equally specious. All that divides a religion from a secular ideology is something whose existence - supernatural support - is disputed by adherents of the latter. To privilege supernatural belief-systems by law would be to impose the view of the faithful about this on everyone, the situation that prevailed in the Middle Ages. This time, it is Islam, not Christianity, that New Labour wants to impose on Christendom.

A society in which one cannot revile a religion and its members is one in which there are limits to the human spirit. The Islamic world was intellectually and economically wrecked by its decision to put religion beyond the reach of invective, which is simply an extreme form of debate. By so doing, it put science and art beyond the reach of experiment, too. Now, at the behest of Muslim foreigners who have forced themselves on us, New Labour wants to import the same catastrophe into our own society.

In a recent television panel, Iqbal Sacranie explained why the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), the organisation he leads, had pushed for this legislation. The British should be allowed not to believe in Islam, he said (thanks, Mr Sacranie!), but they should not be permitted to “criticise” it.

Ken Livingstone has gone even further. On Wednesday, the Mayor of London welcomed to City Hall the Qatari divine Dr Yusuf al-Qaradawi, according to the MCB “an Islamic scholar held in great respect throughout the Islamic world”.

Basing his teaching on Islam’s holiest texts, Dr al-Qaradawi has urged his fellow Muslims to beat their wives; to use child suicide bombers to kill female and infant civilians; to murder Jews, homosexuals and British servicemen; and to colonise, desecrate and usurp Christian Rome.

Mr Livingstone said that the newspapers that had condemned Dr al-Qaradawi for such views “showed why this legislation [Blunkett’s] is necessary”. It was the critics of Dr al-Qaradawi’s beliefs, Mr Livingstone insisted, who were, as the Muslim Association of Britain put it, “the image of evil”. Dr al-Qaradawi, a mainstream figure in a major religion, had endorsed Jew lynching and wife beating: Mr Livingstone seemed to imply that, like Islam, such activities should therefore be above criticism.

This brings us to the nub of the issue: the fact that Islam’s teachings are completely unlike those of other faiths. The Government shows no sign of understanding this. Defending his proposed legislation, Mr Blunkett, for instance, said: “It applies equally to far-Right evangelical Christians as to extremists in the Islamic faith.” But what “far-Right evangelical Christian” has ever proposed or endorsed anything as horrifying as what the moderate Muslim regards as normal?

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1 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:11:33pm

I think that in order for Islam to be reformed, it is vital that Muslims be allowed to criticize Islam.

2 JimmyTheClaw  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:15:36pm

the key phrase

But what “far-Right evangelical Christian” has ever proposed or endorsed anything as horrifying as what the moderate Muslim regards as normal?

none that i know of

3 EyesRight  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:16:03pm

A voice of reason...

4 Azure  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:18:27pm

Agreed. It is essential.

Here is another article about the same Muslim, about Rape victims and Islam -
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi . . . allowed into the country [Britain] despite his open support of Palestinian suicide bombers:
"To be absolved from guilt, the raped woman must have shown some sort of good conduct . . . Islam addresses women to maintain their modesty, as not to open the door for evil."

I'm not usually at a loss for words, but these Islamists are beyond reason. I must go and cool off.

5 RightIsRight  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:19:39pm

ALL "Hate Laws" should be abolished.

Thought-Crime is a dangerous game to play.

6 Geepers  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:22:25pm

zulubaby (#1),

Any muslim that wishes to can criticize islam.

Of course they'll be issued a death warrant, so they usually keep their mouths shut.

7 Beagle  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:23:05pm

Whatever the outcome of this legal battle, the floodgates to criticism of Islam have been opened by the Muslims. Their actions have brought disgrace on themselves. Their statements have caused many of us to sense an existential threat.

No law can change that.

8 peace be upon me  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:23:36pm

When the Muslim terror manual - Recitation (koran) - tells a Muslim, "Jihad is prescribed to you," the [bigoted word] will wage jihad when ordered to do so by a lawful Sharia authority. Islamosavages believe that when Islamic-murderers (shahids) end their pollution of this world, they are rewarded with the highest heavenly reward: living in the level (al-Firdaws) closest to their god-entity.

All Muslims are inherently aggressive, anti-Secular, and form a permanent threat to Civilization. We should treat them in only one way: as enemies.

9 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:25:17pm

Geepers, that's exactly what I mean.

10 EE  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:28:30pm

By making it a crime to criticise today's desert Islam, it will become impossible to encourage the reforms needed toward a more gentle, more humane Islam.

Here is an article by an American, who is of the Muslim faith, Quran Needs To Be Re-Interpreted To Reflect The True Spirit Of Islam, by Tashbih Sayyed

[Link: www.muslimworldtoday.com...]

11 Fran Porretto  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:30:04pm

Bravo, Mr. Cummins! Eventually, a sufficient number of Britons will get the idea: Islam is not a religion, but a program of conquest and oppression. Let us all pray that the light dawns before all is lost for the Sceptered Isle.

12 Modern Crusader  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:30:10pm

Typical Arabs.

13 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:30:52pm

Wrong! Islam does not need "reform", it needs "renaissance"! It is useless to speak of reforming Islam, or of having muslims criticize Islam-- there is no history for them to draw on, and no alternative open to them-- Islam has fiercely suppressed all literature, art, music, except the Qu'ran-- for 1400 years! You cannot change 1400 years of tradition with the wave of a wand! Dikr, or remembrance is one of the five pillars-- muslims embrace it five times a day. Islam needs a "rebirth", not a muslim Calvin or Luther! Besides, the muslim Calvin-or-Luther would be instantly killed-- it has happened in the past, whole dissident sects were wiped out.

14 its jake  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:35:41pm

#8 peace be upon me

It's not all muslims. There are plenty of apostate muslims that eat pepperoni pizza, celebrate easter and christmas, who say of "Palestinians", "those guys are crazy", who serve in the army, et cetera.

Half of my best friends in life have been muslims, and they would never harm a fly. On the other hand, I have a muslim friend who does believe his religion and therefore might potentially be a ticking time bomb.

My point is that some perfectly sane people call themselves muslim.

15 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:36:30pm

What is surprising though is that Islam hasn't died. There is no air there, no room for growth or light.

16 its jake  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:39:14pm

BTW - I am a far-right fundamentalist Christian (remember the puritans?) who thinks killing other than in defense is wrong. Christianity doesn't get more fundamentalist than me, except those who think that even self-defense is wrong.

It's not fundamentalism that causes violence. It's fundamentalist islam that causes violence.

Show me anything in the gospels that condones violence, and you're an idiot.

17 [Mark]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:39:25pm

#13

Yeah, Islam needs a Renaissance, but even more, Europe needs to re-discover its Enlightenment heritage, and put an end to these ridiculous speech codes.

18 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:41:05pm

#8 Peace be upon me: Camel Prophet, I know your arabic is good enough that you know islam means submission, not peace (isalaam, islim). You old nic had much more cachet!

19 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:45:46pm

Consider, someone criticizing your faith, or trying to "help" you criticize it-- by pointing out things that are wrong with it. What's your reaction? Furious lockdown. And I don't think Islam is going to roll over and die anytime soon-- 1.3 billion and counting.

20 cba  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:46:46pm

One quibble in an otherwise excellent article:

Sikhism and Judaism are race cults which actively discourage converts. It is almost impossible to become a member of either religion unless you are racially Jewish or Punjabi.

I've no idea whether that is true of Sikhism, but it is certainly not "almost impossible" to convert to Judaism. We don't actively seek converts--partly, at least, because we believe that the righteous of all peoples have a place in the world to come (you don't have to be Jewish to be "saved")--but most synagogues I know have conversion classes fairly regularly.

Many active members of my synagogue are converts. In fact, two of the couples that are the most observant in our congregation both consist of someone who was born Jewish and someone who converted. And in at least one of those cases the convert was the one who their partner raise their level of observance.

21 Flakbait  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:47:15pm

13 jinnderella
"You cannot change 1400 years of tradition with the wave of a wand!"

Sure you can, if you're speaking obliquely and "waving a wand" means "using strategic nuclear weapons" or "putting everyone in forced resocialization camps." However, point taken.

---

You know, what I find interesting is Mr Blunkett's statement that the brits should be allowed not to believe in Islam, but be barred from attacking it. How does this work, precisely?
If I say, "I don't believe in Islam," why do I not? Assuming I am not mentally defective, unable to believe anything, it means that I do not believe Islam because I believe it to be false.
Therefore, saying "I do not believe in Islam" is approximately the same as saying, "I think Islam is a pack of lies," which is an attack.

So, by not believing in Islam, the brits would be attacking Islam and therefore breaking the law.

Or am I totally off-base in my assessment here?

22 cba  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:48:45pm

#20 (me):

"And in at least one of those cases the convert was the one who insisted that their partner raise their level of observance."

PIMF, but only if you catch the mistake when you preview...

23 Renna  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:50:31pm

I would go further than Mr Cummins, who takes pains to show that religion is like secular ideology in essentials and therefore different from the racial hatred case.

I would highly recommend removing the standing laws against inciting racial hatred as well. Making hate illegal may sound so niceity-nice at first, but you cannot be truly free if your feelings and thoughts are legislated.

Laws are already in place, and in most cases have been for centuries, to protect people from any actual evil actions that may arrise from the hate.

24 EE  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:51:35pm

#1 zulubaby
"I think that in order for Islam to be reformed, it is vital that Muslims be allowed to criticize Islam."

A very wise statement, zulubaby.


#6 Geepers
"Of course they'll be issued a death warrant, so they usually keep their mouths shut."

You've identified the main problem, Geepers, preventing the needed criticism.

IMO for the state to make it even more difficult to criticize Islam, by criminalizing criticism, is to move in the wrong direction.

Maybe one of the worst things about desert Islam is that it is frozen as a backward ideology with some horrible interpretations that cannot be changed, because any Muslim who offers criticism is liable to be charged with being an apostate which is a capital offense.

One ray of hope: there are some Muslims who are sensitive to views of the non-Muslim world. Look at how they object to the word "terrorist" being applied to the jihadists that deliberately commit suicide massacres in buses, restaurants and other public places. If they are sensitive, then we have their attention and their ears. And we need to use that attention to criticise the worst aspects of Islam. Criminalizing criticism is the wrong way to bring about needed reform.

25 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:52:23pm

#21 Flakbait: It means that certain practices dictated by Islam can not be criticized on that basis. Which is stupid!~ Don't mistake me, it is good for non-muslims to critique Islam, that is freedom of speech. My point is that it is useless and naive to expect muslims to criticize Islam.

26 Renna  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:54:10pm
Dr al-Qaradawi has urged his fellow Muslims to beat their wives; to use child suicide bombers to kill female and infant civilians; to murder Jews, homosexuals and British servicemen; and to colonise, desecrate and usurp Christian Rome.

These, of course, are not examples of merely inciting hatred; religious, racial, or otherwise. These are cases of inciting actual illegal acts.

27 WriterMom  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:54:16pm

Shavua tov (Heb: A good week) to everyone...

Great article. Although I smell Eau Du Fatwa in the air.

28 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:56:11pm

So if somebody brought back the Aztec human sacrifice religion, (and had to occasionally had to snatch people off the streets in order to cut out their still beating hearts for a sacrifice to the sun god) would that be protected in the UK when this law passes?

29 Geepers  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:56:16pm

Flakbait (#21),

Or am I totally off-base in my assessment here?

Nope.

That's how islam operates. By degrees when they aren't the majority, by force when they are.

Of course they got nothing to back it up. We will only lose by surrender, never defeat.

30 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:57:24pm

#23 Renna

Making hate illegal may sound so niceity-nice at first, but you cannot be truly free if your feelings and thoughts are legislated.

So true, but the left would have a fit because to them, thoughts and feelings are more important than actions.

31 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:57:44pm

#24 EE: How will you enable this "wise" policy, of enabling muslims to criticize their faith? How would you react, if for example, I tried to help you find faults in your faith? All strategies are useless without a viable plan of implementation.

32 cba  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:57:53pm

Shavu'a tov, WriterMom.

33 lazytart  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:58:15pm

?Eau du fatwa?

LMAO!

Writermom,

How're ya sleeping these days? Any hellish early AM attacks of the little people?

34 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 4:59:01pm

EE, it is up to the Muslims to reform Islam. We can criticize it as much as we like but for any change to take place, it will have to come from the Muslims themselves. We are not going to make them love us, no matter what we do, and to be honest, I don't care whether they love us or not. All I ask is that they respect our right to live our lives as we see fit. I don't see how any change can come about if criticism or even independent thought is basically a death wish, but it is up to them -- either join civilization or be destroyed. I keep thinking that it will be the women who will force change. People cannot be oppressed forever, it's not natural.

35 RickZ  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:01:03pm

Does this new law mean that a Catholic publication criticizing aspects of the Church in an attempt at progressive change would be banned? For example, questioning whether priests should marry or women allowed to be priests would put one in jail? If that is the case, then every minister becomes a "god" in his own local house of worship, not subject to criticism by anyone in his flock.

Thought police, indeed.

36 Jefe  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:01:49pm

#20 cba

I noticed that, too. I'm not currently active in a synagogue, but my congregation growing up neither actively encouraged or discouraged conversion. A close family friend was a recent convert who had her Bat Mitzvah in her mid 40's. Prior to her conversion, she had several private sessions with the Rabbi to determine if it was right for her. There were several other converts I knew of, mostly because of marriage.

37 cba  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:02:38pm

#35 RickZ:
I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the only religion for which the law would be enforced is Islam.

But maybe I'm just a cynic.

38 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:02:47pm

#16 its jake: Fundamentalism causes violence. Consider the persecution of heretics during the Spanish Inquisition. For centuries the RC maintained control through the threat of excommunication, which was, at the time, a threat worse than death.

39 Amy  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:02:48pm

Good article overall, but I take issue with this:

"It is the racial persons of Jews and Sikhs that are protected, not their beliefs. In any case, Sikhism and Judaism are race cults which actively discourage converts."

Jewish isn't a race, and conversion is permitted, although not particularly encouraged.
The Nazis called Jews a race, and it bothers me.
Why isn't it enough to wish to protect people of certain ethnicities (which still doesn't cover Muslims, though it could cover Arabs)?

40 Photoblogger  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:02:50pm

The author is muddying the issue. It is irrelevant what the nature of islam is. The govt should not ban any ideas or their expression, regardless of how true or false those ideas are.

Hatred and inciting hatred should be legal, as they are in the US, on any grounds, whether race or religion or otherwise.

(Of course, inciting specific acts of violence should remain illegal)

41 Geepers  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:03:16pm

EE (#24),

preventing the needed criticism.

It truly is their only hope. Anything looks better when compared to islam, especially for women.

That's why they need a death sentence on apostates.

42 addison  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:04:13pm

#13 jinderella,

The problem with using a term like 'renaissance' is the implication of that word: re-birth. That is, getting back to the roots of the religion.

When Christianity looked back and grasped its roots, it found peace, order, civility, love, no call for theocracy, no overbearing demands on the minutia of daily life, etc.

Islam's roots are in murder (Sura 4:90), totalitarianism (8:12), pedophilia, misogyny, slavery, theocracy, and total, unmitigated control of every aspect of a follower's life.

A renaissance of Islam would actually make it more violent, not less.

A religion is its followers (to steal from someone who wrote that here, perhaps Model4).

43 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:05:34pm

#34 zulubaby

I keep thinking that it will be the women who will force change. People cannot be oppressed forever, it's not natural.

I wish I could agree, but something like 70 generations of women have lived under this system and haven't changed it yet.

44 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:05:52pm

34 zulubaby

I keep thinking that it will be the women who will force change.

So true. I couldn't agree more. I'm sure that's part of why they treat women the way they do - if the women are allowed to leave the house, they might see and identify with, say, Israeli mothers and children. Instead they're locked up inside, watching Al-Jizzeera.

45 norar  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:06:50pm

#15 zulubaby

What is surprising though is that Islam hasn't died. There is no air there, no room for growth or light

Well, may be these are exactly the conditions Islam needs to exist, and thus the light shone on Islam is such a threat to the Muslim "intellectuals" who cry "Islamophobia" at every opportunity. They are affraid for Islam to be scrutinised, for they know pretty well what their unholy books say, and why they lie about what they say.

46 Promethea  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:07:09pm

As I understand it, this mayor of London, Ken Livingston, is a communist or far-left socialist. The actual detail doesn't matter, but my point is:

Here is yet another example of the coming together of the Leninist left and the wife-beating thought-controlling Islamist right. That surely means something.

I've long been opposed to the terms "left" and "right" because they hide more than they illuminate. I use them just as a short-hand way of referring to ideologies like Leninism and Islamism.

In my view, these ideologies can all be generally described as "fascist." The reason I'm bringing this up is because I think we should all be alert to this strange new alliance of thought-controllers, and should analyze it as necessary.

Thoughts? Comments? Links?

47 EE  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:07:16pm
* Will we [Muslims] snap out of our rites and spark our imaginations in order to free Muslims worldwide from fear, hunger, and illiteracy?
* Will we move past the superstition that we can't question the Koran? By openly asking where its verses come from, why they're contradictory, and how they can be differently interpreted, we're not violating anything more than tribal totalitarianism.
* If my analysis is wrong, can you [the Muslim reader] expalin why no other religion is producing as many terrorist travesties and human rights transgressions in the name of God? And can you explain this without pointing fingers at everyone but Muslims?

-- last chapter of Irshad Manji's book, The Trouble with Islam: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith.

48 WriterMom  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:07:34pm

cba-hiya darling

You know, I simply can't get through House of Rock. There's one joke, and the are schlepping it out thru the whole movie. Don't bother...

#33 lazytart

Not doing too badly in the sleep department, "slept in" today till 07:10 and my mother-bless her-came over so I could take a nap. Oy! Do I love to nap on Shabbat.

49 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:08:08pm

43 [Engineer]

That was really funny! See, the left is way off when they say we all think alike.

But I didn't necessarily mean that I see change coming on, pushed by the women. Just that I think that when change comes, the women will play a big role in it.

50 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:09:43pm

#38 jinnderella

Fundamentalism causes violence.

No. Fundamentalism that has political power causes violence.

51 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:10:18pm

I'm not so sure that hate laws are useless. For example, painting swastikas on a synagogue can't be described merely as vandalism, and shouldn't be treated like petty property damage.

52 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:10:34pm

#40 Photoblogger: You are correct-- and the actions specified in the articles of faith, if undertaken, become subject to the rule of law.
Actually, non-muslims criticizing Islam is more beneficial than attempting to get muslims to criticize their own faith. The clash of civilizations is working on Islam every day. That is why the punishment for defection is so fierce-- because it is a response to temptation equally fierce.

53 RickZ  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:10:38pm

# 37 cba:

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the only religion for which the law would be enforced is Islam.

If the proposed law is based upon protectionism FOR Islam, then would the mullah still be allowed to rant, "Death to Jews"? Or just, "Death to America?"

54 Right Wing Conspirator  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:10:41pm

Sorry, very OT, just had to share this:

Got one of those sale booklets today and I found out I have a 'Medieval Times' by my house :-P

Hold still so I can brain thee !!!

55 Jefe  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:11:27pm

#42 addison

We're getting into semantics here, and I may be wrong, but I think Jinderella's point is that reform is to weak a word, not that Islam needs to get back to its roots. It needs to abandoned its main root--that of submission. The renaissance would be a sweeping change where Muslims are not afraid to interpret their own religion & beliefs and adapt them to the modern world. Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen.

56 nonic  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:13:08pm

zulubaby

When you asked me yesterday on another thread, why I said I felt that there was occurring a changing of minds and hearts, and opening up to and discussion of the realities of islam and Westerners' growing impatience with and criticism of islam, this is the sort of thing I had in mind.

(Wow, that was a sentence. Sorry.)

I answered you yesterday in generalities, and felt very bad doing so, but I had no links, not even specifics, my memory getting more and more sieve-like each day. But this is definitely the sort of thing I meant.

:-)

57 Promethea  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:13:20pm

#28 Ed Moran . . .

So if somebody brought back the Aztec human sacrifice religion, (and had to occasionally had to snatch people off the streets in order to cut out their still beating hearts for a sacrifice to the sun god) would that be protected in the UK when this law passes?

Love it. Yes, it's true.

In fact, in Texas a world history textbook was forced to take out any reference to human sacrifice when describing the Aztecs. They didn't want to hurt the Hispanics' feelings. Of course, some of those very same Hispanics might have been from groups the Aztecs sacrificed!

Thought control is everywhere.

58 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:13:41pm

#49 Goldie

Just that I think that when change comes, the women will play a big role in it.

They certainly will have a lot to gain.

59 Albertadude  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:14:03pm

Folks, I don't know how many of you are aware of how huge this article is...because it is in a main stream paper and it is saying everything THAT we have been saying...

It's ISLAM Stupid!!

Wow...it is articles like these that cause me great hope and joy that Western Civ is not lost yet...

And a note to Bigel who I sometimes thinks goes to far on his Euro bashing...I notice that for all there faults, Europeans seem less PC then us at least when it comes to there editorials in there papers and various columnists...You would NEVER see this in Time or Newsweek or CNN et al...

This man deserves a hearty congrats...You can't imagine to me how good this is...I have been shouting and crying like a lone man in the wilderness for over 20 years that ISLAM is a danger to humanity...

I am suddenly being vindicated...slowly but surely, the pee cee barriers are being broken...as much as what Charles and Spencer and others are doing a great work, until we can reach the mainstream like this British chap, we still have a long way too go...

When Charles and others are starting to be quoted in the mainstream or become the mainstream as they deserve, then we know we are winning!!

Dammit...this article hits it on the head...and he even undercuts the idiot moral equivicators against us'evil right wing christians' like myself where he ridicules the claim that we are EVER to be compared with Islam...Yeah...I've been to hundreds and thousands of sermons in Churches and few in Jewish Temples and not once did I hear murder and hatred and evil preached and not once did I hear people coming out of there respective congregations plotting about how to kill other believers ad nauseum!!

The only thing I would say was a slight mistake was the allusion to Aurelius...I found this odd as a student of Ancient Rome because Aurelius, one of the so called 5 good emperors, was quite vile and brutal to Christians himself...of course that wasn't the author's intent so no biggies!!

Huge folks...this is huge...let us give credit to the less pee cee Europeans who from Holland to Germany and England, we are starting too see more and more voices raised against this vile ideology!!

From a happy Darul Harbian

Death to Islam
Freedom for Muslims

60 levi from queens  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:15:26pm

to 51 Goldie -- intergroup crimes are a problem in democracy -- when southern juries let off klansmen guilty oif mayhema nd murder, the SCOTUS allowed the fiction that prosecuting them for civil rights violations was not a violation of double jeopardy--

IMHO-- I would say rather than hate crime acts, there should be a suspension of double-jeopardy (at half penalty) for intergroup crimes -- and on the initial trial, the penalties could be say 10% greater on intergroup crimes. Of course, there is a huge problem-- who or what defines what is intergroup?

61 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:15:49pm

I could be wrong, and would not mind some enlightenment, but I thought Jewish actually could mean two things. One, being a member of an ethnic group that probably started out about 5,000 years ago when Abraham and his group moved from what is now Iraq to the eastern Mediterranean coast, and also the religion practiced by Abraham which still exists today.

Therefore, you can have non-observant or even atheists, eating bacon cheeseburgers, who would still be called Jewish because of the ethnic group, and you could have an Asian or African person (not the Ethipiopian Jews, who fall into the ethnic group despite moving away from the ME) who has converted to the religion, and would also be called Jewish, based on religious observance.

Am I in the ballpark?

62 Harvey  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:16:31pm

It is fortunate for the human condition that the weak willed legislator can no more determine the content of a man's heart than he can eat a bus. It may become unlawful to say NO! to terrorislam, but resistance will lie within the heart of everybody who has known freedom and is subsequently subjected to this evil dogma.

The request for this legislation by the mahomadeans indicates that there are things worthy of criticism within their 'religion', and the aquiecence by Mr Blunkett shows a desire to hide potential problems rather than address them. I know Mr Blunkett is blind, but that is no excuse for not seeing that by outlawing criticism now, he is opting for violence on the streets the future.

63 addison  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:17:16pm

#34 zulubaby,

People cannot be oppressed forever, it's not natural.


It is a comforting thought but, alas, it is not so. Most of my Russian co-workers would still be under the Iron Curtain if the USSR had had (the dreaded double 'had had') a functioning economy.

Look at China, Cuba, Myanmar (Burma), North Korea...as long as the economy holds so that the government can enforce control, they will.

I'm not even so sure that "it" is not natural. The normal state of recorded history has not been freedom, but totalarianism, dictatorship, monarchy, police states, and the like. Freedom and representative democracy are relatively new concepts and many people are openly opposed or afraid of them--liberty is accompanied by a lot of personal responsiblity many wish not to have.

Normal has been statist control, not liberty.

Look at the EU. You have a region that is actively trying to reduce its freedom as a way of destroying the nation-state, destroying collective embarrassing history (Germany, France), and in an appeal to create an utopian welfare state.

64 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:19:31pm

Engineer, wasn't it in Saudi Arabia recently where they said that women will be allowed to work? Islam is all about fear including the men fearing the women. Change has to come from the women, the men have no motivation to do so. It's going to be a fight, we know that, but I simply don't believe that you can oppress people forever.

65 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:19:48pm

#50 engineer:

Fundamentalism is neither religion in excess or politics in disguise. It is an attempt to preserve a particular kind of hierarchy based on coalition, when this is threatened by the perception of cheap, and therefore likely defection.

-- Boyer, The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought

#47EE umm, yes, Irshad Manji is truly a tremendous influence on her fellow muslims--not!

66 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:21:02pm

Goldie, if they let the women out the house they know they'd run away. Who wouldn't?

67 foreign devil  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:21:55pm

This is what makes this war and this religion so scary; a seemingly benign addition to already adquate (some say intrusive) hate-crime laws is a heartbeat away from changing life in Britain forever! Believe me, the moment this law is enacted, those within the Muslim community who have political designs on extending the territory of Islam, will seek to create provocative situations and then charge anyone who criticizes the licence Islam is taking in the community.

Any kind of legal proceeding, even especially malicious ones such as we can anticipate from 'political Islam' in Britain (and eventually elsewhere if they can manage to get these laws enacted in other communities and countries) can be ruinously expensive to defend (or prosecute). The Islamic community which has a political agenda (as different from those Muslims who merely seek comfort in their religion and to be members of their communities in good standing), will brandish any special 'Islamic Hate Law' as a cudgel against their perceived enemies.

This is an excellent piece and points go to the Telegraph for publishing it. But I'm afraid for all Tony Blair's eloquence when pleading George W. Bush's position before the world, he does not have the courage of his own convictions and tends to "wobble" severely and undermine the gains he does make. This may end up being another place where he seeks to regain Muslim support lost because of the Iraq war, by enacting as a boon to Muslims, this egregious piece of legislation.

If he does, Britains of non-Islamic persuasion, will rue the day.

68 Jefe  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:22:23pm

#61 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C

That's my take, having been raised in a Conservative synagogue (OK, I was raised in a house, but we belonged to one).

69 addison  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:23:24pm

A great starting point would be for Muslims to have the right to question the Koran itself. The Koran is portrayed as the perfect, infallible word of Allah and to question it is apostasy. That must be broken.

Christians are asked and welcomed to question the teachings of the Bible. And when they do, they are not beheaded or beaten to death.

70 norar  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:23:44pm

#51 Goldie

painting swastikas on a synagogue can't be described merely as vandalism, and shouldn't be treated like petty property damage

True.

OTOH, it was so much easier to prosecute the jerks if it was treated as property damage.

71 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:23:44pm

#54 Right Wing Conspirator

Or:

Hold and be brained thou ill natured, foul smelling codpiece!

72 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:26:11pm

nonic, thanks. I didn't get back to that thread (I get lost sometimes :-)

addison, very good point. My point of reference is South Africa. When I say you can't oppress people forever I'm thinking to myself that I never thought I'd see Apartheid dismantled, but it happened.

73 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:26:13pm

60 levi from queens

We still see those 'violating civil rights' double-jeopardy-esque prosecutions when there's been a clear miscarriage of justice. And you make a good point in that they're generally applied to would-be hate crimes. (Lemrick Nelson comes to mind, if I have his name right - the Crown Height murderer.)

But I'm not sure that concerns about 'thought crimes' (as if mens rea isn't the backbone of our criminal justice system) are important enough to 1) turn a blind eye to double jeopardy, and 2) allow the decision of what constitutes the sort of crime calling for such a prosecution to be left entirely to subjective actors.

74 quark2  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:28:11pm

Anyone who has a supreme control of language as well as English Law can tear this one apart in about 5 minutes.

For instance, his quote "Nobody is a member of a race by choice."
Just how many two legged, humanoid species is he alluding to that reside on the island of Britain? As far as I can remember from memory, the only two legged humanoid species I've ever seen out and about are homo sapiens.
He is trying to slip in that muslims are a race unto themselves. They aren't homo sapiens, so what the hell are they?
He's just buying himself lots of new rope to be hung by his own petard.
By passing a law that makes a natural and very human emotion illegal is going to cause some nightmarish backlashes. Telling people who have a natural right to express emotions they will be indicted if they do so is like poisoning the only well.
This will cause repressed emotions and opinions to ripen into violence like not seen since the middle ages.
The native sons are liable to go back to wearing blue paint again.

75 Promethea  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:31:43pm

#61 Ed Moran . . .

Therefore, you can have non-observant or even atheists, eating bacon cheeseburgers, who would still be called Jewish because of the ethnic group, and you could have an Asian or African person (not the Ethipiopian Jews, who fall into the ethnic group despite moving away from the ME) who has converted to the religion, and would also be called Jewish, based on religious observance.

You are right. Judaism represents ethnic groups and a religion. Generally, Jews don't like being called a "race" because that word was used in such a ghastly way. Although most American Jews are Ashkenazi (a group with many sub-groups and nasty jokes about each), the Sephardi and other Jews have their own groups with their own customs.

As a non-observant American Jew, I generally think of Judaism as a group just as Navajos are a group. My knowledge of Navajos is confined to Tony Hillerman novels, but Hillerman's characters all show various degrees of belief--from non-believers to traditionalists.

I love his novels and hope they are accurate portrayals of the Navajo people. I guess this is OT.

76 genard  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:32:47pm

The multicultural ignorance of our leaders is embarrassing.

The problem is that Islam is foremost an ideology, a mean spirited totalitarian prescription for ordering society by absolute holy order.

It deserves no immunity from debate.

77 Andrew B.  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:33:28pm
78 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:34:05pm

63 addison

You're right that statist oppression has been the norm throughout history, but things are different now. People realize that freedom is possible in a way they never did before.

More importantly, though, we're not dealing with an Islamofascist state. It's an international movement with no central authority. (I've heard that Islam as a religion is uniquely decentralized - a different head dingbat every ten miles.) Centralized authoritarianism can't work in an environment like that. Islamofascism's existence depends entirely on its followers continuing to see it as in their interests to stick with it. How much longer will they do that? Especially, as zulubaby pointed out, the women.

79 Doctor Phibes  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:34:34pm

According to Channel 4 News, the legislation would allow us to say:

"Islam is bad religion, and it's ruining this country."

But we wouldn't be allowed to say:

"Muslims are evil, I can't stand them."

80 Harvey  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:34:35pm

#46 Promethea
Most people think of the political spectrum as a line from left to right (or vice versa). I think of it as a circle, with the balanced people positioned at the top. You can go through either the left or the right sides of the circle, but you wind up at the bottom where the extremists (Fascist and Communist) reside next to each other.

This image also adds a new dimension to the term 'bottom dweller'.

81 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:34:46pm

#64 zulubaby

wasn't it in Saudi Arabia recently where they said that women will be allowed to work?

Yes it was, but I wonder how far that will go. When the government doesn't stop men from beating, or even killing, their women, the women can't change much and any place where a man can have three wives, you know the women don't have any power. When those things change, then the women will have a chance of making changes.

82 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:34:59pm

There is no real racial divisions. We are almost identical genetically. There are cultural and regional divisions. The spectrum of skin tones is awesomely varied.

Inside the skin and cultural factors aside, there is no difference.

83 EE  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:35:05pm

#34 zulubaby
"EE, it is up to the Muslims to reform Islam."

Yes, but our being blind, deaf and silent does not help matters. Check Irshad Manji's book, and you will see that she objects strongly to all the political correctness that some non-Muslims follow, which allows bad conditions to continue.

For example, in her chapter In Praise of Honesty:

You're comfortable with putting politicians on the hot seat, right? Not quite as scary as calling Muslims to account, is it? Okay. If you're an American citizen, how do you know your tax dollars aren't funding belligerent textbooks in Afghanistan, as they did during the Reagan era under the US Agency for International Development? Have you pumped your member of Congress for information? If you live in Norway, are you aware that English-language training schools run by your state (paid for by you) sometimes segregate Muslim women from Muslim men, thereby failing to introduce these immigrants to a basic tenet of pluralism -- coeducation? To the residents of Holland, how are you ensuring that the Dutch Muslim Boracasting jSystem no longer supplies hate-dipped content to your public TV stateion, Nederland 1, as it did on September 11, 2001? To the people of Canada, you should know that on the first anniversary of Septermber 11 a federally funded group, Toronto Response for Youth (TRY), held workshops about the need for tolerance. But TRY's material attributed the media's stereotypes of Muslims and others to "corporations run by mostly Caucasian or Jewish males." This is antiracism? For whom? Alice and Ali in Wonderland? Can we try to spend our money on more honest endeavors?

There's too much to quote. But here is a good point:

Non-Muslims do the world no favors by pushing the moral mute button as soon as Muslims start speaking. Dare to ruin the moment.
84 Jubelum  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:36:21pm

1, Zulubaby; 10, EE; 13, Jinnderella & 17, Mark:

Islam can not reform. The rules expressly forbit reform:
Bukhari:V9B88N174 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Far removed from mercy are those who change the religion of Islam after me! Islam cannot change!’”

Isam is intrinsically evil and must be eradicated.

You may think it can't happen here. Wrong!! The Sr. (!) from Taxachussets & the Sr. (!) from Utah slid in an amendment to the Defense Appropriations Bill. The amendment outlaws criticism of Queers. This bill will probably get through the Conference Committee and be signed into law with the amendment intact. The packed court will likely approve it.

I have no doubt that a similar amendment to ban criticism of Islam will soon follow. Let us rise up and raise Hell!!!

11, Fran Porretto: I am in complete agreement!

85 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:36:25pm

Oh and by the way, I'm certainly not arguing in favor of this ridiculous law against criticizing murderous Islamist ideology when I defend hate crime laws. I'm just saying that I don't think they can be dismissed off-hand.

86 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:36:35pm

Engineer, I understand that but it's still something. Also, the world is watching now. Before 9/11, how aware were we of Islam?

87 Promethea  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:39:20pm

#74 quark2 . . .

The native sons are liable to go back to wearing blue paint again.

That will be fun to see!

88 Andrew B.  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:39:20pm
#69

addison  7/10/2004 07:23PM PST

A great starting point would be for Muslims to have the right to question the Koran itself. The Koran is portrayed as the perfect, infallible word of Allah and to question it is apostasy. That must be broken.


Christians are asked and welcomed to question the teachings of the Bible. And when they do, they are not beheaded or beaten to death.

You make a great point there...Christians and Jews leave some room to discuss ideas and thoughts and question. In Islam, there is no question just Allah's answer...his word from the prophet Mohammad (Praise be upon him) Allah the merciful...(to Muslims, not kufrs)

Andrew B.

Israel is Real

89 Andrew B.  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:41:11pm
zulubaby  7/10/2004 07:36PM PST

Engineer, I understand that but it's still something. Also, the world is watching now. Before 9/11, how aware were we of Islam?

We weren't...we were asleep at the wheel.

Andrew B.

Israel is Real

90 WriterMom  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:41:17pm

Ed Moran

I see Judaism as a religion and a people/nation. There are the commandments (mitzvot), which are the religious practice and also how we fit together as the nation of Israel. You can opt out of religious practices and still are part of the people.

91 WriterMom  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:43:03pm

Also, in terms of artificial systems, I think the first Arab country to implode will be Iran, with the proper culturing of dissident movements.

92 [Mark]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:43:38pm

Meanwhile, elsewhere in Europe:

Stockholm, 30 June (ENI)--A Swedish court on Wednesday sentenced a pastor belonging to the Pentecostal movement in Sweden, Ake Green, to a month in prison, under a law against incitement, after he was found guilty of having offended homosexuals in a sermon.

Soren Andersson, the president of the Swedish federation for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights (RFSL), said on hearing the sentence that religious freedom could never be used as a reason to offend people. "Therefore," he told journalists,
"I cannot regard the sentence as an act of interference with freedom of religion."

During a sermon in 2003, Green described homosexuality as "abnormal, a horrible cancerous tumour in the body of society". He also called homosexuals "perverts, whose sexual drive the Devil has used as his strongest weapon against God".

In the sermon, delivered in the small east coast town of Borgholm, Green had warned that Sweden faced total obliteration as a consequence of the lifestyle of homosexuals.

For the first time in Sweden, the law of incitement, which applies racial hatred and to sexual minorities, was tested in a trial dealing with aggravation against homosexuals.

During proceedings, the public prosecutor, Kjell Yngvesson, played a tape recording from the sermon and asked the pastor if he regarded homosexuality as an illness.

"Yes, of course," the pastor had replied. "The concept of a sane body and a sane soul is contaminated by homosexuals."

In his defence, the pastor said that the purpose of the sermon was to make clear the biblical view on homosexuality and not to express disrespect.

His lawyer pointed to the contradiction between religious freedom and freedom of speech on the one hand, and the rights of homosexuals to be protected against discrimination, on the other. A verdict of guilty would violate the pastor's right to preach about his beliefs, the lawyer had been quoted as saying in the Kyrkans Tidning, a daily newspaper covering church affairs

Prosecutor Yngvesson asked the court to impose a prison sentence on the pastor, but Green is expected to appeal against the ruling.

93 EE  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:43:44pm

#69 addison
"A great starting point would be for Muslims to have the right to question the Koran itself. The Koran is portrayed as the perfect, infallible word of Allah and to question it is apostasy. That must be broken."

You have it exactly right IMO.

Or, as Irshad Manji put it to her fellow Muslims in her book:

Will we move past the superstition that we can't question the Koran? By openly asking where its verses come from, why they're contradictory, and how they can be differently interpreted, we're not violating anything more than tribal totalitarianism.
94 mickthemick  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:46:17pm

91 WriterMom

Also, in terms of artificial systems, I think the first Arab country to implode will be Iran, with the proper culturing of dissident movements.

WriterMom, did you mean the first Islamic country? Iran is a Farsi-speaking Persian country, not an Arab one. ;)

95 WriterMom  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:48:11pm

D'oh!

Yah-that's the ticket...I, of the Iranian Jewish in-laws making such a mistake...

Yes-Iran: my favourite pick for first Islamic nation to implode.

Then: Syria.

96 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:48:41pm

#55 Jefe: It is happening now, maybe not reform, not renaissance, but replacement?
x

One of the network's [al-Aribiya] more controversial shows is From Iraq, a regular feature that has broadcast the depredations of Saddam's reign as well as highlighted some positive effects of the American occupation. And like other Arab stations, the network puts attractive women on the air. But Al-Aribiya and Al-Jazeerha go a step further and put them in war-zones-- a gesture that...could help end "the archaic role of the dominant male". What's driving the Arab fadayat toward a Western media model? Not the Pentagon. It's competition. With both Al-Aribiya and Al-Jazeerha losing money- neither will say how much- ratings are all important...a US State Department poll...found that 37 percent of Iraqis...named Al-Aribiya as the preferred news source, followed by Al-Jazeerha (26 %), with the US run Iraqi Media network (now renamed Al-Iraqiya) trailing with just 12 percent.


My concern is that it happen fast enough to avoid both The Third Conjecture and the Sampsom Option.
Dr, Ledeen, faster please. :)

97 Geepers  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:49:23pm

Doctor Phibes (#74),

According to Channel 4 News, the legislation would allow us to say:

"Islam is bad religion, and it's ruining this country."

But we wouldn't be allowed to say:

"Muslims are evil, I can't stand them."

Well isn't that nice?

And how do you feel about your government dictating to you what you can and can't say?

And will be able to say "I can't stand them" in private conversation?

And what if you just think "Muslims are evil" that be "allowed'? Are you soon to be going to jail for that too?

98 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:49:34pm

#85 Goldie

Hate crime laws are about as anti-American as you can get. They depend on putting people into groups and then giving some of those groups special protections. How in the world can you defend making it a worse crime to kill a black man than to kill a white man?

99 Speakers Corner  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:49:41pm

Hey I'm off down to Speakers Corner tomorrow to ask Muslims awkward questions in public about Muhammad's rape of Aishah, Islamic slavery and the Islamic beating of women. Also, I may well be having one of them arrested or publically humiliated who calls for the murder of white people whilst waving a Palestinian flag. Come down and watch me make their blood boil.
Also coming soon to the streets of Central London - leaflet drops informing the general population about the truth of Islam - the bits that Muslims don't want us to know.
Let's try and win this battle bloodlessly so that our children won't have to slaughter them. Either way, Islam is OUT of my continent within 20 years.

100 WriterMom  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:50:00pm

I know how to say a few words in Farsi:

Khubeh (good)

And, for those of you ever needing those special words:

A duseh darem cheli cheli=I love you very, very much.

101 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:51:10pm

EE (#83)

I don't trust Irshad Manji either, she's peddling her version of Islam. She's a woman, she's a lesbian -- who in the Muslim world is going to pay attention to her?

Jubelum (#84)

Isam is intrinsically evil and must be eradicated.

That is unrealistic and you know it.

102 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:51:24pm

#84 Jubelum: Exactly-- if Islam cannot 'reform' what point is there in discussing it? Replace or Remake, the only options.

103 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:53:16pm

#86 zulubaby

Before 9/11, how aware were we of Islam?

Very true and that isn't going to change. More and more people are learning what we have about Islam.
You know, the Islamists are a big danger to Islam in that they got our attention.

104 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:55:30pm

98 [Engineer]

Murder is murder - all murder, established beyond a reasonable doubt, should generate severe punishment.

There is a qualitative difference between a random shooting and the brutal murder of a minority group that's clearly intended to send a threatening message to others. But hate crime laws don't have much role in serious crime, because all serious crime warrants serious punishment.

The issue is with less serious crime - or crime that is less serious but for its political content. Like my earlier example of painting a swastika on a synagogue. That's not just vandalism.

105 Perry  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:56:07pm

99 Speakers Corner

Please be careful.

106 Albertadude  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:57:48pm

I always find it funny that people even hear are saying that Islam needs reform or a renaissance or other such nonsense...pure rubbish...

The Huge Majority of Muslims see no need to reform Islam and from there pov they are right...

Westerners are still so terribly niave about Islam...Islam cannot reform...Can you reform Nazism or Marxism...NOPE...The only way Islam or nazism or marxism could ever be reformed is to tamper with the original foundations established in there bibles...ie Mein Kampf, Das Kapital and the Quran and since Muslims believe the Quran is from Heaven and that the Sunnah (hadiths) are binding, not one IOTA can EVER be changed...

Quit this stupidity about reformation in Islam...it cannot happen...EVER...

The Church was able to Reform because it went back to the teachings of Christ...and then you had the Church move away from its violent ways in the medieval times (though this too is over exxagerated by some religion hating secularists)...

Islam actually did have a reformation movement...is was the Wahhabies in Arabia that brought Islam back to its original ideals...and LOOK how bloody cruel those ideas are...

Irshad Manji, bless her...and her bravery, knows very well this cannot be reformed...the best that can happen is that Muslims continue to leave this cult...outside of that...the best is that can happen, in spite of Islam, muslims will moderate themselves as they see Islam will not survive without it...

Of course, Islam is sheer brutality and murderous...it deserves to die...but if some want too keep the carcass of this cult alive by fooling themselves that islam is something that it isn't ie Moderate, then by all means, that is your right...your right too delude yourself!!

Thanks

107 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:57:53pm

Engineer, once you learn about Islam, there is no way you can defend it. Not unless you're a dishonest person.

108 reaganite  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:59:18pm
That is unrealistic and you know it.

Interesting. You defend bigel, CP and Joseph Dzhugashvili, but somehow EE is wrong?

109 Doctor Phibes  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 5:59:51pm

#97 Geepers

I agree that the proposals are completely idiotic. But as they were defeated in the Commons last time round, and as more and more people here are seeing Islam for what it really is, I doubt the legislation will be passed. A better idea would be to abolish the existing heresy laws, so that Muslims can no longer whine about not having the same rights as members of the Church of England.

110 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:00:28pm

Um, reaganite, EE didn't write that. And I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

111 Harvey  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:01:07pm

#74 Quark2
Species: Group of organisms which have certain characteristics not shared by other groups...; subdivision of genus.
Race: Group of persons... regarded as common stock; distinct ethnical stock...; subdivision of species.

He is quite right that 'nobody is a member of a race by choice', but we are all members of Homo Sapiens by definition.

112 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:01:47pm

#104 Goldie

The issue is with less serious crime - or crime that is less serious but for its political content. Like my earlier example of painting a swastika on a synagogue. That's not just vandalism.

Painting a swastika on a synagogue or burning a cross in somebody's yard is a threat and they should be charged that way.

113 EE  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:02:19pm

#69 addison
A somewhat milder approach than Irshad Manji suggests (questioning the Koran), is to leave the Koran alone and question the interpretations. This is something that should be easier for most Muslims to do.

As long as the killings of Jews, Christians, Hindus and other Muslim groups are justified by crude interpretations of the Quran, Muslims are letting Islam die. For its sake and for the sake of civilization, Muslims will have to challenge each and every interpretation of the Quran that is in conflict with the values of common decency, respect, and humanity.

Quaran Needs To Be Re-Interpreted To Reflect The True Spirit of Islam, by Tashbih Sayyed.

[Link: www.muslimworldtoday.com...]

Here is how Tashbih Sayyed explains his conclusion, while maintaining the divinity of the Quran.

Never has an interpreter of the Quran been divinely sanctioned, nor any of his interpretatioins. All interpretations are open to criticism. Only the Quran is divine and divinity can never be in clash with civilization.

So therefore, it must be the interpretation that is wrong.

So there is the Irshad Manji approach of questioning the Koran itself, where its verses come from, why it is contradictory; and there is the Tashbih Sayyed approach of "challenging each and every interpretation of the Quran that is in conflict with the values of common decency, respect, and humanity."

If the end result is more decency, respect, and humanity, it doesn't matter to me what the means of getting there is.

114 quark2  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:03:49pm

One thing more. Everytime you LGFers use the word "racist, racism, race you are falling right into the trap that's been set to change the value and meaning of language.
You really need to consider when using terms as race, racism, racist why you're using it. When you talking about diversity of man, you're talking about an ethnic group, not another race.
No matter how hateful we find muslims because of their violence, they are still of the same race as we are. So how can you justify using these terms when describing a different ethnic group? It's not like you're talking about lemurs, or whales which are two different races.
It would be desirable IMHO, that we began actively correcting those who insist on using this term wrongly. It has been politicized, to be used as a weapon to shut up protestors.

@87 promethea

They may have some painting their bodies blue, but the receptors of their anger won't be too happy! :)

115 SwampWoman  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:03:57pm

#57 Promethea

#28 Ed Moran . . .


So if somebody brought back the Aztec human sacrifice religion, (and had to occasionally had to snatch people off the streets in order to cut out their still beating hearts for a sacrifice to the sun god) would that be protected in the UK when this law passes?

Love it. Yes, it's true.

In fact, in Texas a world history textbook was forced to take out any reference to human sacrifice when describing the Aztecs. They didn't want to hurt the Hispanics' feelings. Of course, some of those very same Hispanics might have been from groups the Aztecs sacrificed!

Thought control is everywhere.

Hmmm. As a person with NA blood, presumably I could be somehow descended from the Aztecs. Therefore should I decide to practice my native heart-jerkin' religion, I think I'll make it a rule that only Islamic hearts be jerked. HEY, it's MY religion, so BACK OFF! (It's not like they're an endangered species or nothin'.)

116 Sasquatch  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:04:01pm

If criticism is outlawed, only outlaws will be critics.

Seriously, if it becomes illegal to criticize Islam, such criticism will only be driven underground. People will learn to use code words to mean Islam when they say something else; this device was used in Nazi-occupied Europe.

Without a totalitarian secret police, there's a limit to what a government can do -- will Britain institute "joke police" like in Communist Romania?

Is it incitement to hatred to claim that Islam would not send little boys into mine fields or make snuff video? Is it incitement to hatred to talk of the ancient mysteries of Saturn worship among Phoenicians and Carthaginians, how they sacrificed children to Baal Hammon, a.k.a. Kronos, a.k.a. Saturn? Is it incitement to hatred to compare Moqtada as-Sadr's threats to sacrifice children to his cause with ancient death mysteries?

So, to paraphrase cigarette commercials:

"So parents, tell your children about not mocking Islam. Tell them how it's wrong to compare the Black Stone to the Blarney Stone. Tell your children that Islam is nothing like ancient worship of Saturn. And remember, never hurt the feelings of a Muslim because the Muslim ego needs all of the help it can get."

117 foreign devil  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:04:30pm

As luck would have it, Stephen Schwartz has a piece at TechCentralStation about Islam's need for a Renaissance. Entitled "A Leonardo Not a Luther" I think it makes good reading on this thread.

[Link: www.techcentralstation.com...]

118 reaganite  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:04:47pm

#110 zulubaby

Um, reaganite, EE didn't write that. And I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

You're correct, I misread your comment, I apologize.

119 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:04:58pm

112 [Engineer]

But it's only a threat because we're looking into the mind of the perpetrator. That's the point.

And, likewise, the murder of a member of a minority that's intended to send a message to others is a 'threat' to the same extent.

120 mickthemick  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:07:20pm

#95 WriterMom

Yah-that's the ticket...I, of the Iranian Jewish in-laws making such a mistake...

I knew you knew better, because I know your knowldge is khubeh. :)
Yes, I can see Iran imploding. But, I hope the mullahs get overthrown before they get the bomb. Syria is a secular country, and Junior Assad has a tight grip on things, much like his old man did. I see Saudi Arabia imploding before Syria...imploding into what, I don't know.

121 WriterMom  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:07:39pm

quark2

Usually the people who I hear whining about racism are lunatic academics and lefties who haven't got a clue about anything. And, I think it does have a whiff of eugenics about it. I think you're right, we can talk about ethnicity, or nationalities, religions but race is a bit of a canard.

122 Geepers  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:07:55pm

Doctor Phibes (#109),

I doubt the legislation will be passed.

That's good to hear.

I take it you're a Brit? Welcome aboard.

123 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:09:29pm

92 [Mark]


I don't care what your views are about gay rights and Christians are, if people don't think that is scary, that a pastor faces jail time for preaching what can be found in the Bible, we are in trouble.

124 WriterMom  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:09:38pm

mick the mick

You better believe I'm khubeh, plus a few other thing ;)

Perhaps they would be so kind as to implode into macaroni and cheese? Just a thought.

125 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:11:32pm

reaganite, no problem, it happens :-)

126 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:12:45pm

#119 Goldie
Sending a message to others is my right as an American. It is how I do it that may be a crime. Make the action a crime, not the thought.

Texas doesn’t have hate crime laws, but we fixed those two bums that pulled the man behind their truck.

127 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:13:33pm

I agree that the prosecution of that preacher is beyond offensive. Euro lefties have gone off the deep end. When will they notice?

Hate crime statutes may be necessary in some instances, but they're troublesome and their use should be minimized.

128 levi from queens  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:14:14pm

Willfred Sheed once said something like:

If you a member of an ethnic group who is sensitive to criticism, you have the right to make us [Americans] give you proper verbal respect. We will be happy to do so. The only downside is that then you will have to live like dogs.
129 Jack  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:14:38pm

OT: The RoP scum in France:

A YOUNG woman and her baby have been attacked in a suburban train near Paris by unidentified men who drew swastikas on the mother's stomach.
The six attackers who were armed with knives clipped the 23-year-old woman's hair, and cut her tee-shirt and trousers before drawing three swastikas on her body.
Police said the attackers erroneously assumed the woman was Jewish because she was living in Paris' posh 16th district.

She was Australian mother with 13 month old baby.
Mother, baby attacked on train

130 quark2  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:15:06pm

@111 Harvey

You need to re read my post. WE are ALL of the same RACE. He is using the "race" card so forward his argument.
The homosapiens that by choice or are forced into Islam are HOMOSAPIENS just like LGFers.

131 Albertadude  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:16:36pm

To 117...and the problem with Stephen Schwartz is that he is considered a RANK HERETIC in Orthodox Islamic circles...And you know why??? Because he is a Sufi...a heretical group of liberal 'muslims' that have as much to do with Hinduism as they do Islam...

Notice that all those that call for a reform in Islam from within almost are always those that hold deeply heretical views of Islam itself...

Sufis have been persecuted for centuries by the Orthodox Sunni Muslims ...

Schwartz is being badly dishonest and only fooling himself...

Indeed, he was booted out of a Long Island Sunni Mousque about 8 months ago and the Muslims there were calling him foul names and alluding to his Jewish background and heretical views on Islam!!

Now if the Cheif Imam of Mecca or Medina or the Principal of Al Hazar stands up to say that Islam needs a major reform, then we can talk...of course they NEVER will...and what they will mean if they bring up reform is to bring Islam back to its original state...and that is the most brutal Islam ever...the kind Muhammed properly expounded on...

I have little respect for people like Schwartz because they try to portray Islam as something that it never was...and for him to speak authoratively on Islam, he has to allegorize all the brutality out of the Islamic texts and then he can say with a striaght face that Islam or his new age truncated 'islam' is peaceful!!

Very very dishonest...I have more respect for the literalists at least in terms of there exegesis, whilst completely brutal and evil, they are keeping honest to Muhammed's deranged vision!!!

Thanks

132 mickthemick  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:17:11pm

#124 WriterMom

Perhaps they would be so kind as to implode into macaroni and cheese? Just a thought.

That's funny! Although, a civil war breaking out in S.A. would be nasty. I'd like to see the Husseins of the Hashemite clan reclaim the Hijaaz. The Hashemites were more sane and tolerant rulers of that province until the Sauds drove them out. Having a more enlightened leadership governing the province which holds Mecca and Medina might go a long way toward loosening the grip that the jihadists have on contemporary Islamic discourse.

133 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:18:28pm

Engineer, you're right that no sort of hate crime law was needed in that horrific James Byrd case.

And as I said, I don't generally see a use for those laws with serious crime. Maybe there's no place for them at all, but I'm not convinced. I don't see how we'd handle cross-buring and swastika-painting without them.

I think people overreact to the idea of the 'thought police.' Our entire criminal justice system is based on mens rea - intent.

134 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:19:00pm

Stephen Schwartz, another one I don't trust.

Jack (#129), that is horrific!

135 WriterMom  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:19:29pm

mick the mick

NO BLOOD FOR OIL!!!

/laughing my head off

136 EE  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:20:37pm

zulubaby, the reform I hope for may turn out to be impossible. I cannot guarantee that it is possible.

Still, IMO there are some things that we should avoid, things that make reform even less likely to happen -- like criminalizing criticisms of Islam, or being so politically correct that we are afraid to criticize what is wrong with Islam. When we do these foolish things, we make reform less likely, and we don't really gain anything in return (I don't think "appeasement" makes any sense at all under the present circumstances).

137 Andrew B.  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:20:38pm
138 mickthemick  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:21:38pm

#129 Jack (from the article)

The men of North African origin also overturned the pram holding her baby, aged 13 months.

Pure evil.

139 WriterMom  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:21:52pm

#129

Could they not, just once refer to local Islamic terrorizers, instead of these ambiguous "North African" young men.

She, and her baby, are lucky to be alive.

140 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:21:52pm

#127 Goldie

[Hate crime statutes may be necessary in some instances, but they're troublesome and their use should be minimized. ]

Tough to do in a liberal court. The left has kept the repubs in the US from striking a balance in the courts through the fine art of fillibuster.

The application of laws depends on the disposition of the court.

141 Andrew B.  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:22:21pm
142 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:23:39pm

129
Jack


It is well known that Presbyterian youth mobs have been running wild in France lately. Although I don't know how many Presbyterian North African immigrants there are in France.

Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin ( Who is a man )"firmly condemned" the attack and asked police to track down the attackers within the shortest possible time.

The attack was "all the more serious because it was marked by racism and anti-Semitism", he said.


143 Promethea  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:23:44pm

#88 Andrew B. . . .

Christians and Jews leave some room to discuss ideas and thoughts and question.

One aspect of Judaism that many non-Jews may not understand is that Judaism is all about interpretation.
Judaism does NOT follow the literal words of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings (Tanach). The Talmudic scholars of Israel and Babylon (Iraq) changed Judaism forever after the fall of the Temple. That's why reading the "Old Testament" will NOT tell you what Jews believe.

It's possible to talk about Orthodox Judaism, but I don't think it's possible to talk about "Fundamentalist" Judaism. There are too many schools of thought and interpretation. I don't know what one would call the Naturai Karta--kooks, maybe. Certainly not fundamentalists.

144 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:24:16pm

137 Andrew B

Sorry to bring up anything positive related to that horror story, but I remember hearing about how people lined up for hours to get a glimpse of Colin Powell. They were heaping praise on him to every reporter who'd listen.

When Kerry et al goes on about how the whole world hates us, I think he's just thinking of the people who live next door to his weekend home in Paris.

145 lazytart  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:26:12pm

#129, dear God.

Where were the MEN?? How long does it take to cut off someone's clothes, dump her baby on the floor, and draw swaztikas on her stomach?

There was a time when those subhumans would have been shot and killed on the spot, else they would have been hunted down like the dogs they are by a mob of men wielding weapons and torches.

Too bad that time is obviously over.

146 lmg  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:26:34pm

#95:

Yes-Iran: my favourite pick for first Islamic nation to implode.

Both are no doubt working feverishly to perfect their implosion systems. Then they just need to enrich a critical mass of uranium ...

147 Darleen  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:26:38pm

#104 Goldie

You're right, painting a swastika on a synagoge is much more than mere vandalism. Just like an exspouse spray painting "I'm watching you" on the side of their ex's car is moran than mere vandalism. It implies a threat, and threats can be criminally presecuted.

"Hate" crime legislation is problematic because it lends itself to too much mischief, just as this proposed law does. And what is more insidious than just a criminal statute promising prosecution for "vilifying" Islam, is that it opens the door for hugh civil actions in which the level of burden of proof drops to preponderance of evidence AND the defendent in a civil action has to pay for their legal representation out of their own pockets. Muslim organizations have shown a real talent in using Western laws/customs to their own advantage ... they'll just pool money and sue the stuffing out of anyone that even throws a dirty look in their general direction.

148 Andrew B.  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:26:42pm
149 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:27:54pm

EE (#136)

I'm not sure that reform is possible either, I just hope it is. The alternative is what, exactly? There are billions of Muslims in this world.

Still, IMO there are some things that we should avoid, things that make reform even less likely to happen -- like criminalizing criticisms of Islam, or being so politically correct that we are afraid to criticize what is wrong with Islam.

Absolutely agree but in order for Islam to reform (assuming that is possible) the Muslims themselves have to be able to criticize Islam. It is up to them, not us, to make the necessary changes.

150 mickthemick  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:29:01pm

#137 Andew B.

"They say they don't want to see black skin on this land again," said Issa Bushara, whose brother and cousin were gunned down in front of their horrified families during an attack by the Janjaweed militia.

That is absolutely U.N.-f***ing believable! Kofi is African, why is he not outraged and screaming for somebody to go in there and start kicking Islamonazi ass?!?! Why in the name of God is anybody piss-sighing about the U.S. presence in Iraq when this kind of thing is occuring, and nobody cares?!?! Where is the LLL outrage?!?! You don't see coalition forces massacreing whole Arab villages in Iraq while screaming "We don't want to see Arab skin on this land again." Talk about yer double standards...

151 lmg  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:29:46pm

#92: Why are Europeans so willingly abandoning their hard-won freedoms? Freedom of religion. Freedom of speech. Is a comfortable retirement and a 35-hour work week really worth the loss of all that their ancestors fought and died to achieve?

152 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:30:58pm

147 Darleen


Do I have to say again that I couldn't agree more that this law is ridiculous? That's not what I'm talking about.

Incidentally, I read in the Economist this week that this law is a trade-off with "Muslim leaders," who are supposed to work with the police in isolating extremists. If the Brits believe that, I've got a bridge to sell them.

153 SwampWoman  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:31:01pm

#145 Lazytart

Where were the MEN?? How long does it take to cut off someone's clothes, dump her baby on the floor, and draw swaztikas on her stomach?

Uh, hellooo. FRANCE. They ain't got no men there.

154 Andrew B.  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:31:41pm

Like I wrote on my blog...they are too busy eating scones and drinking cappacino listening to Mozart as ambience to do anything. You don't understand my friend you have to be TOLERANT...do you get it???

Andrew B.

Israel is Real

155 WriterMom  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:31:50pm

SwampWoman

Sure they do-men with names like Dominique.

156 iowan  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:31:59pm

What has Mr. Blunket done to stop Islamic incitement of hatred toward the Jews? zip. The only people wanting to be protected from criticism are those who need criticism.

157 Harvey  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:32:38pm

#130 Quark2

The problem is that a virulent hatred of Muslims can no more be racism than a virulent hatred of Marxists or Tories. Nobody is a member of a race by choice. Such groups are protected from attack because it is unfair to malign human beings for something they cannot help. However, nobody is a member of a community of belief except by choice, which is why those who have decided to enter or remain within one are never protected.

This says to me that although we are all of the same species, we are not all of the same race (ethnicity). One cannot be held accountable for an accident of birth, but is fully accountable for conscious choices (e.g. preferred religion)

I see no exploitation of the race card here, except to say that it doesn't apply.

158 john5z  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:33:06pm

I think I'll criticize islam whether I'm allowed to or not.

159 Beagle  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:34:00pm

#129 Jack

That is not the first "swastika attack" I've heard of in France. Apparently a standard MO is developing among the Muslims, other than the usual gang-attacking of defenseless targets.

Too bad there are no concealed carry permits in France.

160 [Mark]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:34:39pm

#123

Exactly. You can get jail time for calling homosexuality a sin, but incite jihad -- go ahead, no big deal. From this side of the Atlantic, it almost seems like Europe gives preferential treatment to Muslims, and yet it is Muslims who are the ones doing the killing.

161 Darleen  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:35:01pm

#152 Goldie

Hmm... maybe the Brits want this bridge back?

;-)

162 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:35:35pm

130 quark2

WE are ALL of the same RACE.

No, we are not. We are all human and we are all Homo sapiens, but we are not all of the same race. The human races are:

I. Capoid or Khoisanid Subspecies of southern Africa
II. Congoid Subspecies of sub-Saharan Africa
III. Caucasoid or Europid Subspecies
IV. Australoid Subspecies
V. Mongoloid Subspecies


Source

And each of those races have sub-races.

163 Andrew B.  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:35:58pm
164 SwampWoman  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:36:13pm

#155 WriterMom

Sure they do-men with names like Dominique.

Like I said...

165 WriterMom  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:37:32pm

Yep.

166 SwampWoman  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:37:45pm
Exactly. You can get jail time for calling homosexuality a sin, but incite jihad -- go ahead, no big deal. From this side of the Atlantic, it almost seems like Europe gives preferential treatment to Muslims, and yet it is Muslims who are the ones doing the killing.

But appeasement is a European cultural thing.

167 Speakers Corner  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:38:10pm

#105 Perry

Thanks. No worries though. I got police protection last time and in any case, the local police hate the kind of Islamic freaks who go down there to recruit jihadis. They have stepped up their presence because of the problems which are being caused by these freaks here, here, here, here and here.

I have some plans in the future to open a "What everyone ever wanted to know about Islam but was too affraid to ask" stall at Speakers Corner where I will hand out leaflets. If I ever get round to doing this then I've decided to get a stab-proof vest and wear a mask. The mask is because it's known that at the least the Iranian government sends people out to collect information on anti-Muslims so that they can be "visited" at a later date.

168 Andrew B.  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:38:12pm
169 Promethea  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:39:31pm

#116 Sasquatch . . .

I've been meaning to tell you how much I enjoy your posts. You had a good one on geopolitics a few weeks ago, and more recently a good one on Moloch worship.

Please keep posting with all your interesting facts and ideas.

Thanks.

170 addison  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:39:36pm

#91 WriterMom,

Iran is Persian, not Arab. That may be why it can reform. Its people--not its government--yearn for freedom. You do not see this so much in Saudi Arabia or Yemen.

There is a particular problem with Arab Muslims, not so much Muslims in toto.

171 Beagle  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:40:44pm

"Race" is up in the air.

Human Genome Project

Sylvia Spengler is part of the human genome project, in which scientists around the world are trying to map the location and function of every gene in the human body. She represents the viewpoint of most geneticists today: that "race" has no real meaning in science.

"Trying to mix genetics with race is, to my mind, inappropriate; cannot be done," she says. "...Race is something we do to each other; it has nothing to do with what our DNA does to us."

172 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:40:49pm

167

What is Speakers Corner?

Freak #4 should go a little easier on the eyeliner.

173 dockwra  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:40:59pm

Hmmm. Isn't part of the British monarch's title Defender of the Faith?

And doesn't the President of the United States take an oath to defend the country against all enemies, domestic and foreign?

And might it behoove us to remember why those phrases are where they are?

174 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:41:28pm

#160 [Mark]

If you call for jihad on gay infidels then it is ok I guess?

You have to frame it islamically.

175 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:41:36pm

Speakers Corner, where are you and where were those pictures taken?

176 addison  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:43:39pm

Speaker's Corner is in Hyde Park in London.

177 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:43:44pm

116 Sasquatch

Seriously, if it becomes illegal to criticize Islam, such criticism will only be driven underground. People will learn to use code words to mean Islam when they say something else; this device was used in Nazi-occupied Europe.

Kind of like how we Americans use "urban" to mean black. And Euros use "North African" to mean savage criminal Islamosupremacist.

178 Andrew B.  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:43:54pm

Good night all...

zzz...

Andrew B.

If you missed any information today chances are I posted an article about it...@ my blog

Israel is Real

179 quark2  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:43:56pm

RACE = Species

Two different words that mean exactly the same thing.

If we don't stop justifying and falling into step with those that spin the definition of language into a weapon of choice, we are complicit in the crimes against us by such eyes wide open choice.

180 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:44:29pm

#163 Andrew B.

Trying to get hits are you? That was low.

181 WriterMom  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:45:30pm

Goodnight all :)

182 addison  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:45:53pm

#180 [Engineer],

Heh.

183 Goldie  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:46:52pm

Yeah, good night, gang. Lila tov.

184 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:47:30pm

#179 quark2

I think "breeds" is closer for accuracy, ever how demeaning it might seem.

185 Doctor Phibes  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:47:31pm

#122 Geepers

Thanks Geepers, it's good to be here. Yes I'm British, one of a growing number who aren't buying the Islam=peace fantasy any more.

186 [Mark]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:47:48pm

#174

Sure, as long as you call for the murder of gays in addition to condemning homosexuality, you're okay I guess.

187 EE  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:49:11pm

#134 zulubaby, 117 foreign devil
I don't agree with everything that Stephen Schwartz says. I don't agree with his extremely benign view of dhimmitude. His theory that the replacement of the Saudi royals in a revolt there will be all fine and good for the world is something that the experts should consider; I don't know enough about the population of Saudi Arabia to know who would prevail if the royals were outed in a revolt. And his love of Islam is not for me; I am not a Muslim.

But his opposition to Wahhabi intolerance is something that seems somewhat reasonable, because the Wahhabi form of Islam seems so extreme and impervious to change, and it advocates hatred and jihad. Maybe if some other strains of Islam were tolerated there would be some hope for needed change, and some hope for a gentler more humane Islam.

"What does a Muslim Renaissance mean? It means the restoration of the Islamic pluralism that was abolished in Mecca and Medina in the 1920s, less than a century ago, when Wahhabism conquered the Holy Sites. Before then, all of the hundreds of Islamic legal schools, and all of the differing sects, and all of the Sufi orders, were represented in Mecca, and the Hajj pilgrimage, rather than being a drab experience that today leaves many of the faithful in tears, was a celebration of Islamic diversity. In those days, also, Christian churches were open in Jiddah, and Jewish synagogues were found all over Yemen. Indeed, today only Saudi Arabia bars non-Muslims, and even non-Wahhabi Muslims, from openly practicing their faith. The rest of the Gulf states allow Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist worship; and Bahrein still has a synagogue."
-- Stephen Schwartz, Sufi Muslim.

188 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:50:02pm

#179 quark2

RACE = Species
Two different words that mean exactly the same thing.

No, they do not. Both of those words have meanings and no matter how much you try, they are not the same.

race1 (r³s) n. 1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
spe·cies (sp¶“sh¶z, -s¶z) n., pl. species. Abbr. sp. 1. Biology. a. A fundamental category of taxonomic classification, ranking below a genus or subgenus and consisting of related organisms capable of interbreeding.
189 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:52:04pm

addison, thanks.

190 lmg  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:52:18pm

#114 quark2:

No matter how hateful we find muslims because of their violence, they are still of the same race as we are. So how can you justify using these terms when describing a different ethnic group? It's not like you're talking about lemurs, or whales which are two different races.

Humans, whales and lemurs are different species. Race is basically the PC term for subspecies. Homo sapiens has three major races - Mongoloid, Caucasoid and Negroid (East Asians, Whites and Blacks, basically), who developed their distinct characteristics while evolving in relative isolation from one another over the last 200,000 years. Muslims can be members of any of these races, so using the term racism to describe anti-Muslim attitudes is incorrect. However, they are (I think) mostly of the same ethnic group - which would be a subdivision of race. I don't know if there is an -ism to describe dislike of an ethnic group. Oh hell, let's just nuke 'em and get it over with.

191 Speakers Corner  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:53:42pm

#172 Goldie

Speakers Corner is the corner of Hyde Park closest to Marble Arch in London. It's a place where you can go on a Sunday to stand on a stepladder and talk to the crowd about absolutely anything. Well
almost anything. There are usually at least 600 people there at any one time. The main speakers are Christians, Muslims, Marxists/ anti-capitalists, lunatics, comedians in that order. It's a good laugh but can be infuriating too.

#175 Zulubaby

Here.

192 Andrew B.  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:54:52pm

Hey can you blame me for trying? LOL

But honestly I am working hard on my site. I try to get all the major stories and much more. It's not like I am shamelessly advertising my website or anything. I am just sharing info with you guys thats all...

there is no money in it for me...yet muuuahhahahaha

j/k

anyway...take guys and good night...:)

Andrew B.

Israel is Real

193 Right Wing Conspirator  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:56:30pm

Hey all. My footballs aren't showing up. Anyone know what the problem could be? IE6 I believe.

194 Right Wing Conspirator  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:58:14pm

Actually, strike that. Now they are.

195 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 6:58:43pm

#190 lmg

Oh hell, let's just nuke 'em and get it over with.


LOL

196 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:00:37pm

#180 Engineer

Lay off 'im, wudja guv? He jus' a young blogger tryin' t'get his start in loife, roight?

Besides, it's not like anyone else around here shamelessly drops links trying to get hits!

197 reaganite  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:02:44pm

#194 Right Wing Conspirator

Actually, strike that. Now they are.

Close one eye, put one foot on the ground, and one hand on the wall. It should take away the spins...
:-Þ

198 Promethea  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:05:00pm

#149 zulubaby . . .

I'm not sure that reform is possible either, I just hope it is. The alternative is what, exactly? There are billions of Muslims in this world.


Barring a terrible war that leads to massive casualties in Muslim countries, it's possible that over the long run Islam can change as Muslim societies change.

There may always be a "Muslim Brotherhood" but if Muslim societies can fight the extremism, they can change and evolve too.

Maybe I'm a Pollyanna, but I think how much China changed in the 20th century. We just have to be patient...while defending our civilization, of course.

199 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:05:47pm

#193 Right Wing Conspirator

The footballs load last.

Heh heh.

200 Right Wing Conspirator  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:08:01pm

#197 reaganite

Heck, I am still waiting for the drinking thread.

calm it down gals...it's just a picture :-P


ps - how was the 'burgh.

201 Geepers  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:09:44pm

Doctor Phibes (#122),

one of a growing number who aren't buying the Islam=peace fantasy any more.

Fantasy on our side, lie on theirs.

And LGF can be a wealth of information and intelligent reasoned argument, but ...

Just a word of warning, don't be put off when some of the more, um, virulent, posters start dumping on Britain. It's not a common sentiment here.

And I hope you like beer. ;-)

202 EE  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:10:32pm

Here is how Khalid Duran writes about a possible(?) coming Muslim Enlightenment -- in which religious discussion might be permitted without fear of being murdered.

.. As predicted, the Rushdi affair engendered a witch-hunt for independent writings on matters related to Islam. One did not have to be a freethinker to incur the wrath of the Islamists and their allies in the traditionalist camp. The Egyptian scholar-politician Farag Foda was courageous and outspoken, but what he wrote and said was anything but revolutionary. All the same, he was murdered, and some Islamist prechers justified the assassination by declaring him an apostate.
In contrast to Foda, another victim was a rather introverted Egyptian professor of Arabic literature, Nasr Hamid Abu Zaid. Threatened with murder for alleged apostasy, Abu Zaid fled Egypt and found refuge in Holland. What he wrote in a study of the Quran was intelligent but hardly controversial. Others had presneted the same views, more or less, in several earlier publications. Scholars and writers hve been assassinated or threatened with assassination in Afghanistan, Algeria, Iran, Kuwait, Lebanon, Pakistan, Syria, Turkey, Yemen, and the Western Diaspora, including the United States. Few safe havens remain.
The Battle of the Books raging in much of the Arab and Muslim world leads to the questions of how much freedom intellectuals can exercise without risking their lives, how much independent thinking is allowed, and what opportunities there are to express opinions freely. In short, is a Muslim Enlightenment possible?

--Khalid Duran, in his book Children of Abraham: An Introduction to Islam for Jews.

203 reaganite  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:10:55pm

#200 Right Wing Conspirator

Heck, I am still waiting for the drinking thread.

LOL, dude, where the hell do you find the time to get that stuff?!

ps - how was the 'burgh.

$4 bottles of water, $33 sixpacks, and the city rolling up the sidewalks at 7 pm, just fine!

204 Joseph  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:12:37pm

>>In any case, Sikhism and Judaism are race cults which actively discourage converts. It is almost impossible to become a member of either religion unless you are racially Jewish or Punjabi.

205 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:13:04pm

#200 Right Wing Conspirator

Heck, I am still waiting for the drinking thread.

Why are you waiting, do you need our permission to drink?

God, if the girls see that...

206 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:13:39pm

Actually, speaking of spins, I've read that a well trained law enforcement officer doing DUI work is actually trained to look for that. Drunk people's two eyes don't track perfectly together, which contributes to the "spins".

207 EE  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:13:44pm

re #202, Khalid Duran is a Muslim. Obviously, he is hoping for the advent of more freedom of discussion of Islam, discussion without fear of being murdered.

208 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:14:39pm

#200 Right Wing Conspirator

Thanks. Saved as desktop

209 Right Wing Conspirator  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:14:46pm

#203 reaganite

C'mon now, I have 8 hours of free time, umm, work to find that stuff.

Yeah, that is what sucks about Pittsburgh. Pretty much every member of my family up there has the kegs delivered to their houses so they don't have to deal with it.

210 blert  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:17:36pm

The end state for Islam will most probably echo Shintoism. At the end of a catastrophic war, with a shattered economy their 'god' submitted to McArthur. Shintoism was gone in 60 minutes.

For Islam exposing the Allah of the Ka’aba as a meteorite fragment/ rock icon circa 540AD should prick the bubble/ suspension of disbelief.

Nuking Mecca is out of the question if for this reason alone.

Islam already provides shattered economies. It also features mindbogglingly inept militaries.

To paraphrase Mo' and Lincoln: you can't have a planet divided against Islam. It's an all or nothing proposition. The shrinkage of the world forces the issue. Not using ME oil is not an option.
The liberation punchlist:
Iran
Syria
KSA
...

211 Right Wing Conspirator  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:18:03pm

#205 [Engineer]

No, not at all. It just looks like this thread is a pretty good one (serious discussion and all.) Heck, I am on my ten third one.

#208 PostalWorker

No problem.

212 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:18:24pm

OT - This is hilarious!

213 joseph  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:18:56pm

IMHO, there are three kinds of Muslims: Those who wish to kill us today, those (most) who wish to kill us tomorrow (when they will be stronger and more numerous), and those (a minority) whose yet-uncorrupted human decency causes them to ignore the spirit underlying their belief system.

214 reaganite  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:19:07pm

#209 Right Wing Conspirator

Pretty much every member of my family up there has the kegs delivered to their houses so they don't have to deal with it.

Wow, I posted I was going to Pittsburgh at least 7 hours in advance and you didn't warn me? Next thing I know, that pen you gave me will spray me with ink! Some bud!

:-Þ

215 Promethea  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:20:33pm

#204 joseph . . .

>>In any case, Sikhism and Judaism are race cults which actively discourage converts. It is almost impossible to become a member of either religion unless you are racially Jewish or Punjabi.

I don't know about Punjabi, but re Judaism--that is so NOT TRUE.

216 Sasquatch  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:21:06pm

#131 Alberta Dude

Aw, c'mon, give the Sufis some credit. Okay, so they very, very loosely interpret the Quran to say what Wahhabis (and orthodox Sunni and Shi'a) regard as completely heretical.

Still, there's something to be said for "mystical interpretation" of religious texts. If one can read into the text something good that obviously isn't there, a bad good interpretation can be better than a good evil interpretation. Sure, it's dishonest. It may be better than the alternative.

Besides, I rather like the idea of the sacred fraud. Some of my heroes are the priests who most likely forged what was probably the Book of Deuteronomy "found" in some obscure part of the Temple. Better Josiah the good liar than Manasseh the child murderer.

One thing I like about Judaism is how it gets better and better over time. I find Jewish interpretations of the Torah more interesting than the Torah. Then there's the "Jewish mystical interpretations". After learning about that, half the popular music on the radio sounds like sacred hymns (about God's love for Israel and Israel's love for God...). (If you actually read the lyrics of I said I loved you but I lied by Michael Bolton, it sounds at least as much like a heartfelt prayer as it does like a love song!)

I rather like the (English interpretation of the) Zohar myself. The whole idea of sex as a threesome (husband, wife, and a happy Shekinah) sounds interesting...

The literal Torah advocates genocide against lots of peoples (especially Amalekites). Another part of the literal Torah instructs on the proper method of raping a captive. Believe me, Talmudic and "Jewish mystical" interpretations are a vast improvement over the original.

Perhaps what Muslims need is an "Islamic Zohar"...

217 lmg  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:22:14pm

#171:

"Race" is up in the air.

Race is not up in the air, but some scientists seem to be a little high.

"Trying to mix genetics with race is, to my mind, inappropriate; cannot be done," she says.

PC Leftist.

"...Race is something we do to each other; it has nothing to do with what our DNA does to us."

Uh huh. Right. Put down that test tube and back away - slowly...

218 urthshu  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:23:21pm

Waaay back at #46:
WRT Leftists and Islam, yes there's a connection & it's bewildering. My friend Diego in Spain just sent me a couple of links detailing how they're now funding mosques, mandating the teaching of the Koran in the schools, and putting Imams on state TV. Its all an equal-time initiative..

219 Right Wing Conspirator  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:24:13pm

#214 reaganite

Ooops. Sorry 'bout that.

I thought in the city it would have been different. Hell, the suburbs have a bar on every 5th corner.

220 joseph  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:25:11pm

#14: >>My point is that some perfectly sane people call themselves muslim.

221 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:25:25pm

What is the deal with expensive six packs in Pittsburgh.


Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh, a couple of times, Philadelphia once while flying Allegheny), Alaska (Anchorage, once) and North Carolina (snow on the ground, Charlotte, Piedmont) are the three US states I have been to but haven't been drunk, by virtue of either connecting, or, in the case of Anchorage, refueling stop.

I did walk the airport in Anchorage, but the beer was too expensive. Pennsylvania and N. Carolina I had to make connections.


There are states, like Utah, that I visited while working, but didn't drink, and states like Ohio and Indiana and Tennessee, I drove through but didn't stop except for food/potty.

New Hampshire is a special case, as I haven't been drunk there, and only spent about twenty minutes there, but went there specifically for a beer run.

222 reaganite  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:25:41pm

#219 Right Wing Conspirator

Ooops. Sorry 'bout that.

LOL, if I give you 8 hours notice next time, will you hook me up?

223 reaganite  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:27:30pm

#221 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C
It's on! I'm challenging you! Which one of us has been drunk in more cities?

224 EE  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:28:01pm

#204 Joseph
The two powerful missionary religions in the world are Christianity and Islam.
Although Judaism is not considered an active missionary religion, there are many converts. Every Jew who is not a convert is of course descended from a convert, since Judaism doesn't go back to the beginnings of the human species.
If you visit Israel, you will find a rainbow population. So being Jewish cannot be considered being a member of a race.

225 Sasquatch  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:33:16pm

#210 blert

Actually, not using ME oil is an option.

All that's necessary are massive subsidies for biodiesel to undercut the competition. Once biologically derived fuel undercuts petroleum on the world market, the petroleum-based economies of the ME will implode.

Good grief, if Europe and North America can subsidize tobacco, cotton, and sugar, putting farmers in equatorial regions out of business, surely the industrialized countries can try to put the petroleum industry out of business.

I wonder why this hasn't happened yet. Hmmm...?

226 Right Wing Conspirator  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:34:37pm

#222 reaganite

Most definitely.

ps - I think we should move the drinking stuff on to perhaps the cycling thread. I don't want to be blamed for derailing this thread.

227 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:40:02pm

Promethea (#198)

There may always be a "Muslim Brotherhood" but if Muslim societies can fight the extremism, they can change and evolve too.

That's assuming that they want to fight extremism. In the meantime we continue our search for the mythical moderate Muslims.

228 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:40:41pm

#223 reaganite

I have been drunk in Pago Pago. Now top that:-)

229 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:42:44pm

#225 Sasquatch

1 acre of industrial non smokable hemp can produce the same amount of higher wuality paper, with less polution than 1 acre of timber.

Also the seed oil can be made into diesel, lube and a type of gasoline. The waste can be made into plastics, and biomassed into fuel.

Look to the DEA and congress to change the laws.

I'm not saying make pot legal by this BTW.

230 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:45:02pm

#228 [Engineer]

I've been drunk at Maggies Whorehouse, Bar n Grille.

231 reaganite  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:45:05pm

#228 [Engineer]

I have been drunk in Pago Pago. Now top that:-)

Abu Dhabi UAE. I did it drinking next to a Arab woman in a ninja robe!

232 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:45:38pm

#225 Sasquatch

All that's necessary are massive subsidies for biodiesel to undercut the competition.

And just where are you going to find these trillions of dollars? The production cost of ME oil is like a buck a barrel. In Iraq, gas sells for 5 cents/gal. Tey can cut the price a LOT and still make money.

233 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:47:10pm

Reaganite


Depends on your definition of "city".


Are Oakland, San Lorenzo, San Francisco, Berkeley, San Francisco, Albany, Hayward seven cities or one?

Ditto Houston-Galveston-Spring-Pasa-get down-dena?


Just by Metro area:
Denver, Orlando, NYC, Chicago, Milwaukee, Albany, NY, Boston, Worcester, Palm Beach, Kansas City, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, Corpus Christi, Laredo, Midland, Houston, El Paso, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Reno, Lake Tahoe, Biloxi, Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, Tijuana, Ensenada, Honolulu, Seoul, Pusan, Hong Kong, Olangapo/Subic City/Barrio Barreto, Hamilton (Bermuda), Singapore, Perth/Freemantle, Bangkok, Diego Garcia (British Indian Ocean Territory), Mombasa (Kenya), Montreal, Yuma, Puerto Vallarta, Lafayette (Louisiana), New Orleans, Monroe, Tulsa, Ann Arbor.

If I'd gotten to the Chuck Boat a year earlier I would have made the "Around the World" cruise with various Med ports.

Plus, two beers, served out of a big green plastic jet engine container, on board the USS Chuck Wagon, CVN-70, twice (two different West Pacs) while anchored off al Masirah, Oman.


I've been on dry land in Oman, but for whatever reason, alcohol was not an option.

234 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:48:11pm

#231 reaganite

I did it drinking next to a Arab woman in a ninja robe!

All I had was a red haired Tahitian dancer.

235 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:48:17pm

EE (#187)

I don't agree with his extremely benign view of dhimmitude.

That's all I need to know about him. It's just another tactic, another way of soft-selling Islam to the ignorant public. And if he's a Muslim, let him use his Muslim name, not his Jewish one.

236 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:51:18pm

Clean it up guys, Zulubaby is here.

237 Ali Al-Beheshti  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:54:08pm

BS"D

#16 it's jake

Quote from your post: "Show me anything in the gospels that condones violence, and you're an idiot."

Well, hereinunder are just a few of the ragingly violent bits from the xian book, purportedly from the mouth of the founder of the religion. So is he an idiot?


Jesus said, "I have come to set father against son, mother against daughter, etc." and, "I have come to cast fire on the earth."

"Think not that I am come to send peace; I came not to send peace but a sword." "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." (spoken in a parable in Lk.) "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth...and men gather them into the fire, and they are burned." (a verse in John cited by the Inquisition)

Perhaps you should familiarise yourself with your scriptures before making any such blanket statement.

238 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:54:25pm

Engineer, you guys been talking dirty?

239 EE  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:54:29pm

#227 zulubaby, I think that it is easier to think of different degrees of dissent from the most extremist radical Islamist views. Some dissent more, and some dissent less. And the dissent is in different ways, sometimes (religious, political).

Also, it should be obvious that not all Muslims think alike. The Ayatollah Khomeini had an ideology that was very different from the thinking of Irshad Manji. And Osama bin Laden's ideology is very different from the thinking of Tashbih Sayyed. And Saudi Prince Nayef's thinking is very different from that of Salim Mansur. Etc.

240 urthshu  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:54:34pm

still catching up ;-)
171 WRT the race issue:
"Race" as a term was used first by the French to identify social groups, not races as we know them today- specifically the Nobility, eg. 'our noble race', etc. It was the Germans who transformed it into a races of humanity debate. Genetically, there is far less basis for it.

241 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:56:18pm

Engineer,

How would it cost trillions to convert some refineries to using pot seed oil?

I understand about biomass conversion, but pot seed oil is relatively easy to crack, AFAIK.

242 Albertadude  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:57:15pm

To 216...a few things...

It's anyone right to allegorize whatever they want but do not call it Islam...Sufism is Sufism...by what your saying, I can allegorize Das Kapital and Mein Kampf and they can both come out smelling sweet too which is true...but it is being dishonest to the intention of the respective authors...

As for the literal Torah, yes Hashem does wipe out a few tribes here and there...I havn't a wit of problem with that considering that Ancient Israel's foes were as evil as the ones they are facing today...

There is gigantic contrast between the violence in the Tanach and the Quran and Hadiths...take note...the violence in the Torah is never open ended or prescriptive...in otherwords it is not a carte blanche to extend Israel by the sword...also, these strict and seeminly odd laws from our pov, were for a particular people and a particular time...again not open ended...also, Israel's foes, to repeat, were incredibly wicked people...

Contrast that with Islamic doctrine that is completely open ended and prescriptive...150 injunctions in the Short Quran (shorter by quite a bit then the Greek Bible) to murder and kill ad nauseum...and these are teachings...not just a record of an historical event...Notice that Islam had conquered upto Tours within a hundred years of Muahmmed's death and had brutally conquered the Eastern Sassinids and so forth...

And why?? Well because Muhammed gave them that teaching and they took it literally...not only did Muhammed provide the doctrine for Islam to be a brutal killing and enslaving machine, he emulated himself by murdering innocent civilians and teaching the rape of captives...

And that brings me to a query...point out in the Torah where it advocates Rape of captives...I think I know where you are referring too but I don't want too presume...its not saying what you think it is saying...

Thanks

243 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:57:17pm

Zulubaby, go look at the link RWC posted in #200.

244 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:57:52pm

Not exactly in the bars I went to, but there were "unidentified black moving objects" (not a reference to skin color) in Mombasa when I was getting drunk there.

I actually found a book store that had an entire collection of paperback Ian Fleming "007" novels, and then went to an outdoor cafe at a hotel opposite a billboard for Redy Kilowatt, where I drank Gin and Tonics (for the quinine, to give an assist to the malaria prophylaxis we were taking- (You wanna talk high moisture content flatulence, the malaria pills cause me a lot of that. Not exactly change your underpants moist flatulence, rather, visit the rest room every couple of hours to wipe type moist flatulence)).

An NBC camera crew filmed me, and somehow my parents saw me on the Nightly News, instantly recognizing my Hawaiian shirt. Report was about "AIDS and US Serviceman", but, having heard local "hospitality" women had a 50+ % infection rate, I chose to catch up on my reading. (No, I was not a church going Bible reading Christian then, so in a way I'm lucky my parents didn't see me on TV dialoguing with ladies of the evening)

245 dockwra  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:58:18pm

#233 Ed Moran

Are Oakland, San Lorenzo, San Francisco, Berkeley, San Francisco, Albany, Hayward seven cities or one?

Err, neither. They're six, plus an extra San Francisco.

246 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 7:58:52pm

EE, you're right, and I need to keep that in mind. I'm just thinking here -- there are people like Irshad and Schwartz who I suppose are as "moderate" as we're going to get, and I'm being a hard ass about it. I'm not sure what I expect from them or others like them.

247 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:01:44pm

#237 Ali Al-Beheshti

In the context of:

"My kingdom is not of this world, or else my people would fight." This said in answer to a Roman in regard to these very statements.

There is a valid argument that Jesus spoke of spiritual fighting, not the fighting of wars. That is a secular thing.

248 [Engineer]  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:01:52pm

#241 PostalWorker

How would it cost trillions to convert some refineries to using pot seed oil?

That is not the problem. It is the subsidies to get it cheaper than mideast oil.

249 Ali Al-Beheshti  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:06:10pm

BS"D

#247

Quote: "There is a valid argument that Jesus spoke of spiritual fighting, not the fighting of wars. That is a secular thing."

I find it rather disingenuous to suggest that telling people who have no sword to go sell their cloak and purchase one (a sword) is in any way advising "spiritual warfare"

250 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:06:34pm

#248 [Engineer]

It's cheap to grow weed. We have millions of acres available, and it grows just about anywhere. A typical Hemp plant is 3 ft diameter and 12 to 15 feet high. It will produce a lot of seed.

Not only is the oil good for fuel but is even better than canola or corn oil for cooking.

It's one thing we should develop. Already we use seed oil for jet fuel.

251 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:06:57pm

Ali,

I've known from your Mel Gibson posts that you don't like Christianity.

In context, none of your quotes are recommendations from Jesus to his disciples to commit violence to anyone. They are generally references to what awaits sinners in the afterlife.


Jesus instructed his followers to leave towns where they weren't welcome, and "shake the dust off their feet" as a warning. He did not order military attacks or violence on the non-believers. Jesus also made the rather famous "Give to Caesar..." quote, which many Christians intepret as an endoresement of a speration of the secular and religious in government.


Now that Evariste is a very infrequent visitor (you also, for that matter) I appreciate your particular understanding of Arab and Islamic culture. I am fully aware that murder has been committed on the Jews in the name of Christianity, but none of it would have met the approval of Jesus of Nazareth, if my intepretation of the Gospels is correct.

252 Jamuka  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:09:31pm
In any case, Sikhism and Judaism are race cults which actively discourage converts.

That was uncalled for. The writer sounds like a Christian Evangelist. Sikhism and Judaism are NOT cults.

Yes "Jesus loves you"...???

253 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:09:40pm

#249 Ali Al-Beheshti

Do you know the meaning of allegory?

254 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:10:07pm

245


Um, it could be the sangria, or maybe San Francisco counts twice.

255 Ali Al-Beheshti  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:16:13pm

BS"D

#251

Quote: "I've known from your Mel Gibson posts that you don't like Christianity.

In context, none of your quotes are recommendations from Jesus to his disciples to commit violence to anyone. They are generally references to what awaits sinners in the afterlife."

Indeed, there is much in xianity that I cordially despise, primarily the historicity of murdering my people. However, in the context of this thread I merely assert that telling one's followers to arm themselves with swords, (the most dangerous personal weapon of the time), even to the extent of selling their clothing to purchase said weapon has by no stretch of the imagination, any excarnate use. On the contrary, it is a call to violence, which has been used (misused perhaps) by fanatics throughout xian history. While Islam is by far and away a movement that lionises the most vile practitioners of cowardly & heinous violence, it cannot be denied that the history of xian expansion has been littered with the corpses of the innocent as well.

256 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:17:16pm

#239 EE: The dissent among sects has nothing to do with the basic tenents of Islam-- What if the Shia'a belive in the line of seven or the line of twelve, or in the hidden imam? It is noise in the grand scheme of things.
Do you know the origin of Islam? The False Prophet Mohammed hijacked an entire culture, and stripped it bare of anything except the lust for conquest. The Sufis are probably the closest to the original bedouin tribal values, but even they are miles off.

Also, it should be obvious that not all Muslims think alike.


Ahhh, but they think more alike than non-muslims, and there's the rub.
Islam is has evolved to prevent dissent. It has evolved to spread and acquire converts. The memesets are fixed and reinforced everyday, through the five pillars. Some few escape to criticize it, but I would argue they have replaced Islam, not reformed it.

257 transferthem  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:18:23pm

This proposed law is intended to be nice to islam on the basis that islam will then be nice to Britain. Not dissimilar to Chamberlain's pice of paper signed by herr shitler. Just give 'em the sudentanland and they'll be happy and leave us alone. Duh!!

Just protect them from crticism and they'll stop beheading, blowing up, murdering and raping the rest of the world. Duh, duh, duh, duh!!!

258 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:22:26pm

Ali, I think I once had this discussion with Teacake, but despite the fact that "Christ" is Greek for "Messiah", typing those words won't make you a Christian.


Allah!


Thats Arabian for "The God".


I don't consider myself Muslim now.

Krshna!
Buddha!
Zeus!
Ra!


Nope, still an "X-ian".

Anyway, if you despise every last group that has ever inflicted evil on the Jews, I'd recommend moving to Mongolia.

259 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:22:51pm

In a spiritual way, Jesus did set father and son against each other, and he did cast fire upon the earth. So, where do you see that they do this in the physical realm today in the name of god, as the muslim do?

Keep in mind that the Koran even in context advocates spread of it's doctines by the sword.

BTW, what do you think about Judeaism?

260 '  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:23:01pm

Victoria, Australia, has similar laws. The Islamic Council of Victoria has used this act as the basis of a recent complaint againt a Christian group.

261 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:28:02pm

#255 Ali Al-Beheshti

[Indeed, there is much in xianity that I cordially despise, primarily the historicity of murdering my people. However, in the context of this thread I merely assert that telling one's followers to arm themselves with swords, (the most dangerous personal weapon of the time), even to the extent of selling their clothing to purchase said weapon has by no stretch of the imagination, any excarnate use.]

Even if it were true that Jesus advocated violence, it was agains Rome, and not Arabs.

It is not true.

Moslems invaded Europe and got their asses kicked. Get the fuck over it.

262 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:29:59pm

#255 Ali Al-Beheshti: Fundamentalists in any religion will advocate violence-- Christianity is no different from Islam in that respect. I am far more interested in how xianity and islam are different, than in how they are the the same.

263 Delta Burka  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:31:06pm

#260, '

I like your nic. How do you pronounce it? ;-)

264 Doctor Phibes  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:31:11pm

#201 Geepers

Beer is good. And with politicians like David Plonkit, I guess we deserve to get dumped on now and then ;-)

265 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:32:30pm

259


Ali is Jewish, and has a particularly good insite on Islam because he grew up in an Arab country (Yemen, IIRC) and his family actually worked hand printing copies of the Koran.


In a way its hard to blame a Jewish person for hostility to Christians after Christians (or at least people nominally identified as such) have done so much wrong to the Jews, but, just IMHO, if the Jewish people insisted on rejecting the friendship of Christians, or insisted on non-stop insuslts, as Ali does (IIRC, he has cut and pasted Talmudic passages that described Jesus as a pervert and his mother as a prostitute), despite superior intellectual skills and education, they'd have no hope against the Islamic masses that outnumber them by several orders of magnitude.

266 Geepers  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:34:23pm

Doctor Phibes (#264),

And you have a sense of humor. :-) You'll fit right in around here.

You must be working the night shift?

267 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:35:31pm

#262 jinnderella

Christian doctrine does not advocate killing those who are not believers. That is up to God, and not Imams. Christianity and Islam are not the same when it comes to violence.

A Christian may defend themselves, but are forbidden to kill out of spite, jealousy or over doctrines. The result of being rejected as a doctrine is to shake the dust off yer shoes and go on. Let God take care of his own business.

I believe Elijah dealt with this whole issue when he confronted the prophets of Baal, (See Allah).

268 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:35:55pm

#261 Postal Worker: Chill please, I have not yet met this being-- From what Ed says there may be data to had here. Will you indulge my thirst for information, please?

269 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:45:32pm

#265 Ed Moran:

despite superior intellectual skills and education, they'd have no hope against the Islamic masses that outnumber them by several orders of magnitude


But Ed, the Jews do survive-- all the way to ChapterHouse Dune!! :-)

270 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:47:01pm

268

Ali is a good source for Islamic translations and insights on Islamic culture, but if he insists on being the Jewish David Duke, I'd rather he leave and Postal Worker hang around.

271 PostalWorker  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:47:23pm

What the fuck ever. I'm outta here.

272 Geepers  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:51:57pm

Ed Moran (#270),

I'll second that.

273 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:52:28pm

Postal Worker-- you didn't say I had to choose!! Sorry. :(

#264 Dr. Phibes: Are you the Abominable Dr. Phibes?

274 Islamaphobe  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:52:45pm

I strongly believe that Islam is in a crisis because it is incompatible with modernity and cannot truly reform itself. Christianity has taken a lot of shots from theological liberals and has managed to survive. I am, incidentally, a conservative Christian who is willing to (very peacefuflly) defend the scriptural integrity of the New Testament. Islam, however, cannot allow the kind of minute examination of its scriptures by non-Islamic academics that Christianity (and Judaism) have undergone. Inevitably, therefore, those who want to preserve Islam intact by insisting on its scriptural validity cannot allow free inquiry. Islam is a religion that inspires violence among its adherents. It has always done so and will continue to do so as long as its adherents take it seriously.

275 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 8:56:59pm

Sheesh, I've been here three months and I still don't have the protocols down-- I am always getting into trouble!

Geepers, you read my analysis of the Passion-- Is it original, d'ya think, I mean different from others?

276 Ali Al-Beheshti  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:06:33pm

BS"D

#262 Djinnderella

Quote: " I am far more interested in how xianity and islam are different, than in how they are the the same."

Of the many differences between xianity & islam, the pre-eminent difference that comes to mind is the ability of the xian church, through it's authoritarian, hierarchical structure, to have leaders, (accepted as fully authentic) that were able to moderate, re-interpret & in some cases actually fully redact portions of canon law. Islam, on the other hand, since it fully lacks any incarnate leader standing heir to a "supernatural" line of authority to lead the 'Ummah, and interpret either the qur'an, or any of the seven schools of Hadith. (The obvious exceptions to this, being the "heretical" offshoots knowns as the ahmadyya or the baha'i)

Because of this most stark difference, I believe that never again will murder, or pogroms of non-believers gain the impramatur of the historically established xian church. However I believe it to be an inevitability, that because of the ossification of the canon of Islam, it will eventually become unavoidable for the rest of the world to face the fact of an existential conflict between Isalm and the remaining populace of the world.

277 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:14:36pm

276

Now that we're having civil discourse again, is Bahai a branch/sect of Islam, and how are they cosnidered heretical?

278 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:17:15pm

Bed time.

279 Geepers  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:18:18pm

jinnderella (#275),

It's the first time I've seen it and it made sense to me, but that's not saying much.

280 Doctor Phibes  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:20:48pm

#266 Geepers

No I fell asleep too early and then woke up in the middle of the night, damnit! Actually the most appalling thing about this story is not the proposed legislation, but the fact that the Mayor of London was so desperate to stick up for this lunatic. Even Diane Abbott, a reasonably left-of-centre Labour MP, couldn't explain why Red Ken chose to welcome al-Qaradawi to City Hall - her best guess was that he didn't actually know what al-Qaradawi stands for, but now it appears that he knows full well.

281 mickthemick  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:22:02pm

#276 Ali
The Catholic Church is the only church that can even vaguely be described as authoritarian or hierarchical; indeed, it was this power structure that helped inspire the Protestant Reformation, which in turn opened the doors for further theological debate, the cultural & political Rennaissance of Europe, etc. Forgive me if that was your point, but the authoritarian & hierarchical structure of the early church did not encourage a wide degree of theological debate.

282 Stinky  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:22:37pm

This Fundamentalism issue disturbs me. What is the opposite of Fundamentalism? Flighty-ism? Superficialism? Waffle-ism? Token-attention-ism? What is the noble alternative to someone who takes his principles seriously?

Just because the media--which is loaded w/ newsmakers who consistently have negative opinions towards any sort of religiousity--coin this term "Fundamentalism" doesn't mean rational people should conform to it. It's like the political spectrum, another topic here. The political spectrum is a joke. Ronald Reagan, who was for a free market system, individual liberty, states rights, and Christianity, is dumped in the same category as Adolf Hitler, who was for a regulated market, racial identity over individualism, environmentalism, and paganism. If you looked up incompetence in the dictionary, that irresponsible interpretation of two antithetical ideologies as being one and the same, "right wing", would be a leading example. Yet people treat it as a "given", without challenging the meaning of their words and how they are used. Eventually, language becomes meaningless under such a superficial approach to the signifiers and the signified.

Same thing w/ Fundamentalism. Let's take the founder of this obviously evil, incompetent cult known of Christianity--I mean we all agree that Fundamentalist Christians are morally and intellectually equivalent to Fundamentalist Muslims, right? Right. Anyways, there's this guy, let's call him Josh, and he thinks he's the Son of God, and he thinks he has supernatural powers, and he thinks he's this thingeemabob called a Messiah, and he has a couple of new ideas regarding religion. Yet, inspite of all his magic tricks, he never takes up arms or acts in any way to coerce his listeners into living the way he asks them to live. He turns down political power--I mean, if he wanted to force theocracy down the throats of humanity, wouldn't he have at least *tried* to do so? He doesn't fly into the skies and hurl thunderbolts down on unbelievers, even though he and his believers think he can control the weather. No, he talks, he tries to persuade, and then he lets people choose their path. He gathers some disciples, saying "Follow Me", but curiously, he doesn't grab a sword and hold it to their necks shouting, "FOLLOW ME OR DIE!" Now why is that? Isn't Josh all-powerful? And if not, hell, can't he gather a mighty group of warriors to fight for him and force his system down the throats of the unbelieving? No...which should tell you alot about his and his God's priorities--a free will, the willfull decision of discipleship...he wanted *liberty*, and this renunciation of totalitarianism should be deafening considering what Josh and the chroniclers of his stories think he could have done...

His disciples -those closest to him, even his brother--carry on his message, w/o swords. Even his most controversial disciple--one he never met in their time on earth--pontificated on love and forgiveness despite his more prudish leanings.

Skip a couple of centuries. This guy, let's call him Torky, decides to take the message of Josh, and shove it down the world's collective throat. Burn at the stake this, disembowel that, "FOLLOW THIS GUY NAMED JOSH OR DIE!" And Torky kills a lot of people and becomes an icon of lapsed Joshuans everywhere who now find all forms of organized religion equally evil.

Now--which is the Fundamentalist? The guy who articulated and literally LIVED the "Fundamentals" of a new religion (defined by its attempt at emulating his life), or the guy who lives out the rejected the Fundamentals articulated by the former? Is Joshua the flighty, superficial one who doesn't internalize what he professes, or is Torky the flighty, superficial one who doesn't internalize what Josh professes? How can they both be Fundamentalists? They are at opposite ends of the spectrum. We're back to Reagan and Hitler sharing the same label. Torky and his ilk aren't any more "Fundamental"ist than Reagan is a Nazi.

283 westtexasjew  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:22:52pm

I agree with the writer (except for that erroneous "race cult' crap - pretty ignorant.
Islam ia backwards religion, and the immigrant problem is going to destroy Europe.
Read that pile of dogpoop known as the Koran -- it is a psychotic experience. I have read it, several times and just thank G-d that I am a Jew. Instead of babbling on about the "Religion of Peace" crap .. it's all there in the Koran, the absolute worst religious text ever foisted on a backward group of people.
The left attacks religious Christians because they don't know a damn thing about them, being atheists themselves.

284 Ali Al-Beheshti  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:24:55pm

BS"D

#277
Quote: " is Bahai a branch/sect of Islam, and how are they cosnidered heretical?"

The baha'i movement was founded in Iran at almost the same time as mormonism was founded in the US.

The leader & founder of the baha'i (known as the bab [meaning the gateway]) preached that he was the fullfilment of all messengers, that all doctrines were completed in him and his "new" message. He maintiained that he was both the revealed "hidden" iman, and the returned xian messiah. he met a rather ghastly end at the hands of the muslim ruler of Persia at the time, some of the lead-up to included cutting off his nose and having him paraded about the bazaar bacwards on an ass.

The moment he proclaimed himself as a "successor prophet" his fate was sealed. Islam tolerates no such claim.

285 mickthemick  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:25:32pm

#280 Dr. Phibes

Actually the most appalling thing about this story is not the proposed legislation, but the fact that the Mayor of London was so desperate to stick up for this lunatic.

Appalling, but certainly not surprising, considering this is Red Kenny. Do you live in London Town, Doc?

286 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:29:01pm

#276 Ali Al-Beheshti: First, why do you spell my name like that, with the D? I take it you are not Iraqi?

I agree with your analysis, but not your conclusion-- there are female reporters on Arab tv stations, Islam is forced to change, even as we speak. I am an optimist, but I worry it won't be fast enough, is all.

#279 Geepers, LOL, you are one of the most sensible beings in this place! :-)

287 mickthemick  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:32:44pm

Stinky

I mean we all agree that Fundamentalist Christians are morally and intellectually equivalent to Fundamentalist Muslims, right? Right.

No, we don't.

Ronald Reagan, who was for a free market system, individual liberty, states rights, and Christianity, is dumped in the same category as Adolf Hitler, who was for a regulated market, racial identity over individualism, environmentalism, and paganism.

Actually, Stinky, if you throw out the "racial identity over individualism", and add "antisemitism", you could argue that Hitler has Moore (pun intended) in common with leftists than with conservatives (NAZIs were socialists, after all). Maybe that was your point. Come to think of it, what is your point?

288 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:33:26pm

Stinky, the opposite of a fundamentalist is a moderate.

I have to go watch SeaLab2021 now, I'll be back later-- deadman, if you're about, it's on saturday nights too now!!

289 Ali Al-Beheshti  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:35:00pm

BS"D

# 281

Quote: "the authoritarian & hierarchical structure of the early church did not encourage a wide degree of theological debate."

I agree that the early, middle, up to the fairly late, church did not brook much debate. However, the fact that the pope is regarded as the inheretor of the "repository of faith" allows for such things as the second vatican council, the Nostre astaete, and sundry other bulls that have radically redacted the stance of the historical church, and canon law as accepted & practiced.

There is no corresponding entity in any islamic tradition that could so effect change in the mooslim canon. Therefore, much like the veriform appendix, they are an (social) evolutionary dead-end without yet having noticed.

290 Geepers  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:35:50pm

mickthemick,

Mick's favorite song is "This Is A Test" by the Emergency Broadcast System.

LOL.

291 Doctor Phibes  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:37:10pm

#273 jinnderella

Yes that's me, the Abominable Dr Anton Phibes. I'm definitely due for a Hollywood remake :-)

#285 mickthemick

No I don't live in London, but after this I feel like moving there just so I can vote to get rid of the freak.

292 Geepers  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:43:13pm

jinnderella (#286),

you are one of the most sensible beings in this place!

Thanks, ... I think.

;-)

293 mickthemick  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:48:50pm

#290 Geepers
Glad you got a kick out of that. I'm also still Nob Hill's most eligible bachelor, but something tells me you probably don't give a monkey's about that. ;)

#291 Dr. Phibes
Yeah, Red Kenny's a piece of work. It's really amazing what freaks mayor's can be. Here in San Francisco, we elected mayor Gavin Newsome, a fairly middle-of-the-road Democrat in the Clinton mold. He ran against a Green Party candidate (Matt Gonzalez), and two left-leaning, Howard Dean-like Democrats (Tom Ammiano, and Angela Allioto), and was regarded as a right-winger!!! This, the man who had city hall hand out marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Only in San Francisco...

Anyhooo, back to my Red Stripe brew...is there a drinking thread tonite?

294 Ali Al-Beheshti  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:52:29pm

BS"D

#286 Jinnderella

Quote: "First, why do you spell my name like that, with the D? I take it you are not Iraqi?

I agree with your analysis, but not your conclusion-- there are female reporters on Arab tv stations, Islam is forced to change, even as we speak. I am an optimist, but I worry it won't be fast enough, is all."

My mistake, I glanced at your nic & the mind added the D as a reflexive... no, not iraqi, Jew of Yemeni origin.
While I agree that in arab society we may see some cosmetic changes, I don't believe that they have any real "staying power". Witness the great freedoms allowed women in Iran under that mirpang shah (so-called pahlavi) , yet in came khomeini sagatollah (dog of allah) and *poof* away go the rights and back come the chadors. Until there is some methodology of redacting islamic canon, in a manner accepted as authentic by the majority of the muslim world, I fear that my conclusion is (however depressingly) accurate

295 Geepers  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 9:57:29pm

mickthemick (#293),

but something tells me you probably don't give a monkey's about that.

True. ;-)

Red Stripe? Man, that brings back some memories from my club hopping days.


Time for me to mix out. Later on.

296 Stinky  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 10:00:39pm

287 mick

Actually, Stinky, if you throw out the "racial identity over individualism", and add "antisemitism", you could argue that Hitler has Moore (pun intended) in common with leftists than with conservatives (NAZIs were socialists, after all). Maybe that was your point. Come to think of it, what is your point?

That was my point. Yet, Hitler and Reagan are given the same label, "right wing", in spite of the fact that Hitler has more in common w/ the Left. How does "Right wing" have a meaning if it can represent antithetical political beliefs? The political spectrum needs to be changed.

Likewise, Jesus and Torquemada are given the same label as "Christian", in spite of the fact that they have little in common when it comes to executing "Christianity", ie "Christ-like-ity".

288 Jinn

Stinky, the opposite of a fundamentalist is a moderate.

So, Jesus is a "Moderate", who doesn't adher to the Fundamentals of the faith he starts, and Torquemada is the "Fundamentalist", who doesn't adher to the Fundamentals of the faith Jesus started, for Torquemada and Jesus can't both be the same thing.

297 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 10:04:01pm

#294 Ali Al-Beheshti:

Therefore, much like the veriform appendix, they are an (social) evolutionary dead-end without yet having noticed.


Nope. Everything evolves. Islam is highly resistant to change, but cannot hold out forever! The example you cite was influenced by the reversion of a secular government to a theocratic one-- it does not truly portray the osmotic pressures bearing on today's Islamic society. Memetic evolution can happen at speed, unlike genetic evolution.

298 joseph  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 10:06:04pm

Sorry folks for not previewing my posts... I meant to quote something by using ">>" and the reverse but the latter ends up cutting off the msg.

I was trying to state that I know many converts to authentic Judaism. We ARE strict in who we accept. Case in point: If a prospective convert states he accepts all 613 commandments but one minor one (even), we tell him to go take a hike.

Susquatch states: "The literal Torah advocates genocide against lots of peoples (especially Amalekites). Another part of the literal Torah instructs on the proper method of raping a captive. Believe me, Talmudic and "Jewish mystical" interpretations are a vast improvement over the original."

As I don't have the time or energy at 3AM to argue, i challenge anyone to read the Torah re his two examples and tell me that he isn't grossly twisting the facts.

299 Stinky  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 10:15:25pm

Sealab's funny. Aqua Teen is funnier. "Highlander was a movie!" "No Frylock, Highlander was a documentary and the events happened in real time!"

Meatwad: We just want to celebrate my birthday, and eat some cake.
Boxie Brown: I don't want no cake, I want me some *pie*, you know what I'm saying?
Meatwad: ...um, no.
Boxie: Well let me break it down, you know when you're in the shower with a fine, foxy hoochie mama, and she got that--
(Pause)
Meatwad: WHAT?!? Well I don't know if I believe that, I mean, I've seen action figures w/ their pants, and they ain't got that!

300 Doctor Phibes  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 10:16:58pm

#293 mickthemick

Well, same-sex marriage I can almost understand. At least it's in keeping with the traditional left wing agenda; rights for everybody, equality for all, blah blah whatever. But wife-beating? Execution for homosexuals? Where does that fit into the workers' paradise? Perhaps the workers' paradise thing isn't postmodern enough, and he wants a sadists' paradise instead?

301 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 10:17:32pm

#296 Stinky: Umm, maybe our defs are out of sync-- from what I've read, Jesus was most likely a moderate. See my post #65 on this thread for the definition of fundamentalism that I use.

302 jinnderella  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 10:31:36pm

#299 Stinky, Yah, ATHF is the funniest! :)
*yawn* I like to stay up until Charles turns off the music, but I won't make it tonite-- thanx, all, for the reasoned discourse and learning-- especially you, Ali! :)

303 Albertadude  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 11:01:13pm

Again how many times must we educate the loons on this board and elsewhere that Christianity has nothing to do with Islam and I mean in a fundamental sense!!

Jinnderalla...honestly how absolutely stunned of you to dare compare Fundamentalist Christians with Fundie Muslims ...brutal...yeah...CS Lewis, Tolkein, Carey, Wilberforce, Disraeli,Sayers, and countless millions of other great men and women the last 2000 years that helped establish our education systems, legal systems, hospitals et al...

Tell me...where does it teach in the fundamentals of Christianity to kill murder and rape???

And too you Ali...I realize you are bitter...and that is too your own detriment...but you seriously need to open your mind and learn a little about proper exegesis...your quotes from the New Testament are brutally stunned as any Muslim attacker of the Bible!!

Do you understand consquences? Do you remotely understand what Yeshua is saying here???

No because in your hate, you try to score cheap dishonest points!! Moshiach knew his message of Truth would divide people...hence consquences...as in Mother against Daughter and so forth...and so it is today...The Messiah knew that his followers would be hated...thus the warning about the sword...it was not an abmination to kill...but again a consquence and so it is also to this day...

Truly...we believe what we want to believe and too hell with Facts!!

Thanks

304 Spiny Norman  Sat, Jul 10, 2004 11:58:46pm

#296 Stinky

Hitler and Reagan are given the same label, "right wing", in spite of the fact that Hitler has more in common w/ the Left. How does "Right wing" have a meaning if it can represent antithetical political beliefs? The political spectrum needs to be changed.

Actually, the Political Compass (see "Analysis" section) has a more detailed approach and places Hitler as an (extreme) Authoritarian Centrist.

My score:

Economic Left/Right: 4.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.82

305 Curious  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:56:25am

The Telegraph is really sticking its neck out about Islam in a way that you wouldn't have seen only a year ago. Perhaps people are starting to get it, to say the unthinkable. Check this one out from about a week ago:

Beware of False Prophets

306 Victory Now Please  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 3:42:25am

Can I please be the first American Jew to tell these british 'slims that they should Fu@k off and die? Please Please Please! Islam is a pretty sh!tty blood cult of death, but British Islam is the Sh!ttiest in the Western world. It's a good thing that I live in the USofA so that I can say that without fear of being arrested by the British-Muslim state.

307 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 4:26:13am

#303 Albertadude: Sheesh, I'm not comparing. I'm looking for differences. I've said many times drawing parallels is useless. And this is a terminology question-- see my #65 above-- the technical definition of fundamentalism as used in the study of religious theory has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Fundamentalist Christianity, which is the name of a particular religion! Actually, Fundamentalist Christians are moderates in the study of religious theory, in that they do not use extreme punishment in the case of heretics or apostates. You mistake me.
Look, Fundamentalist Christianity is a fine faith, I admire many of it's precepts, I know many practioners to be exemplery beings, but fundamentalism there refers to (as I understand it) a return to 'basic' or fundamental beliefs. Not what I meant at all!
I am sorry for the confusion.

308 andrew  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 5:15:58am

#282 Stinky

A great post. Thanks!


Jinnderella

Are you saying Jesus was a political moderate? That's the only way I can make sense of what you're saying.

309 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 5:23:31am

#308 andrew: According to the technical, evolutionary-theory-of-religion definition, yes Jesus was a moderate, in the sense that he did not advocate conversion at the point of the sword, or burning dissidents at the stake or cutting their heads off. *sigh*, I probably just shouldn't use that word at all. :(

310 RickZ  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 5:59:45am

# 260 ':

Please pray particularly for Pastors Danny Nalliah and Daniel Scot's

Note how the Catch the Fire Ministries has asked for prayer to keep the accused strong in their quest to debunk the Mulsim claim. I do not see "kill them" or any such nonsense.

So it has begun, first in Australia, where they will use our laws to defeat us. Hellooo Britain? Are you listening?

311 Ben B  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 6:01:23am

I've got a feeling that, except in backward places, Islam will collapse massively and decisively within the next century. What we are witnessing are the beginnings of its own perception of this.

312 RickZ  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 6:24:45am

# 311 Bob B:

From your fingers to G-d's ears.


I also take exception to Ali typing "Xians" for Christians. There are enough letters on the keyboard to spell it out. He also broke me up with the phrase "Muslim canon." I don't think he meant to be pun-ny but he was. Especially since Islam has no religious canon, only the Q'uran, as interpreted by anyone who can hang out a shingle ans issue a fatwa. The Catholic Canon is above and beyond the Scriptures. The only thing above and beyond the Q'uran is death.

313 Ali Al-Beheshti  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 7:32:03am

BS"D

#312

He also broke me up with the phrase "Muslim canon." I don't think he meant to be pun-ny but he was. Especially since Islam has no religious canon, only the Q'uran

Rick, I will assume that you have never heard of any of the seven main schools of hadith which make up more than 40% of the shari'a legal base ? Islam does indeed have canon law (although were I in the mood for punning it might be called something with a bit more of a bang, like "homicide bomber appearel" law). As for your abjection to my use of xian, do get over it, no religious Jew will spell out or speak the name of any other diety.

Jinderella, thanks for your exchange, I hope fervently that your belief that a memetic change (contagious idea spreding throughout the islamic world) is correct, however, I am very pessimistic.

314 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 8:14:25am

#311 Hi, Ben B! I hadn't seen you since the Wild Rumpus of registration! You know how fond I am of organic analogy-- I think the end of Islam will be more like a single celled organism in a strong saline solution-- the osmostic pressure (of modern civilisation) will cause the cellmembrane to collapse inwards, leaving only an empty husk. :)

#313 Ali Beheshti: I believe there is a biological basis for all behavoir, and that the biomechanisms that drive human behavoir will triumph over Islam in the end. Biomechanisms are also behind the pleasure of knowledge acquistion and productive argument. :)
I, too, enjoyed our exchange.

315 Dan Dare  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 8:43:41am

If I had to guess the future of Islam, and I am assuming here that it has a future. ie It won't come to a sudden stop as a result of a nuclear war precipitated by some super-shaheed wannabe.

I suspect that muslims will not convert to another religion, neither will Islam reform very much. It has too many inbuilt rigidities for me to believe that that will really be possible on a big scale. Rather I suspect that in the long run there will simply be creeping secularization and growing irrelevancy. Few Muslims will ever actually denounce Islam - that would be too dangerous. But quietly its influence will fade, even as people insist that they believe in it still.

It will resemble in many ways how China has gone capitalist while never officially renouncing Marxism.

I do have a prediction though, and its a strange one:
One hundred years from now, United States will be the last religious country left on Earth. And then even that will pass. A great and ancient way of thought will have passed into human history forever.

And what will bring it about?

In a nutshell the gradual taming of aging as a result of the steady progress of medicine in general and genetic engineering in particular. We passed a real milestone with the decoding of the human genome. Within a few decades the practical spinoffs will be coming thick and fast. Mankind will not be the same at the end of this revolution. Stem cell research is only the beginning.

Eternal youth will not be the same as imortality. There will still be deaths as a result of suicide and murder and accidents. But the ever-present sense of the imminence and inevitability of death will retreat to a much further spot in our minds.

Just as most young people today hardly ever worry about death, so will eternally young people - but even more so. The natural human tendency to not think about unpleasant things unless they are imminent will guarantee that most people will find more interesting things to preoccupy themselves with. And so religion, mankinds great coping mechanism for mortality, will fade and die.

Birth rates will continue to fall as people feel no more need to have children to look after them in their old age. Probably the small birth rate will just about balance the small death rate and the population will be fairly stable. If not, then births will have to be regulated by law, or we will have to spread out to space. Whatever, I don't expect population to explode.

But I do expect religions to implode. At any rate the kind of religions we have now. Note that doesn't mean that all religions are necessarily false. It just means that without the same pressing need to tame death, most of mankind will lose interest.

316 Victory Now Please  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 8:54:29am
One hundred years from now, United States will be the last religious country left on Earth. And then even that will pass. A great and ancient way of thought will have passed into human history forever.

Except it could be argued that much like your China example, the US has largely gone agnostic/atheist while still claiming to believe in god.

317 Jed  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 9:29:54am

Insanity is taking over civility.

318 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 10:18:00am

#84 Jubelum: Ho, I just *got* it! Jubelum, Jubelor, Jubelow-- Knights Templar or The [Masonic] Brotherhood? You should really put it in your profile.:)

319 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 10:21:34am

#315 Dan Dare: There will always be religion-- whether or not it is called religion is a mere matter of semantics.

320 Martel-Sobieski  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 10:37:50am
Basing his teaching on Islam’s holiest texts, Dr al-Qaradawi has urged his fellow Muslims to beat their wives; to use child suicide bombers to kill female and infant civilians; to murder Jews, homosexuals and British servicemen; and to colonise, desecrate and usurp Christian Rome.

Islam is an absolute evil. There is no parsing, no equivocation, no explanation, no interpretation, no getting around the fact that islam enjoins its followers to attack, kill, rape, enslave and convert others by the sword.

Any compromise with this evil is evil itself.

Those who don't "get it" will soon be standing at the gates of Hell along with Neville Chamberlain whining about thier "good intentions."

As for "reform" of islam, it is a pipe dream. Islam is designed to be "reform proof" by the death sentence for "apostasy." In the decentralized structure of islam, who gets to decide who is an "apostate?" My guess is that it's the most radical fundamentalist in the mosque.

Islam is an absolute evil, as was Nazism, as was Marxism, as was the ideology of the Khmer Rouge. The thin veneer of "religion" behind which this new fascist arab supremacism hides is fast being torn away.

The only way forward is for us to rid ourselves of it.

Mass Deportation and Zero Immigration, NOW!

321 Sasquatch  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 10:58:51am

#232 [Engineer]

And just where are you going to find these trillions of dollars? The production cost of ME oil is like a buck a barrel. In Iraq, gas sells for 5 cents/gal. Tey can cut the price a LOT and still make money.

According to Oak Ridge National Laboratory, the Saudi Kingdom's cost of production is about $3/barrel. Iraqi gasoline is subsidized.

How much does the war cost? $200 billion? $300 billion? The fact is, Osama bin Laden and his allies are waging a war of financial attrition against us. They want us to eventually go bankrupt. Unless we wage financial attrition on the economy that supports al-Qaeda, we will lose the war. We need to burn a hole in their checkbook at a faster rate than we burn a hole in our own checkbook. It's really that simple.

Putting the Saudi Kingdom out of business is part of the cost of victory.

I estimate that the cost won't be in the trillions, but at most in the hundreds of billions. All that one needs to do is set high target prices for oil producing crops, and cheap oil will be plentiful. Besides, what message are the US and the EU sending when they refuse to wage economic attrition against terrorist-sponsoring economies while crushing poor economies with subsidies for cotton, tobacco, and sugar?

322 PostalWorker  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 11:38:41am

International law has as much significance as a ministers ordaination gotten off the internet.

323 PostalWorker  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 11:55:45am

Wrong thread. Sorry. :P

324 Q  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 12:03:29pm

jinnderella:

the biomechanisms that drive human behavoir will triumph over Islam in the end.

Unfortunately, certain fundamentals of human behavior are also the source of Islam's strength. Hunger/greed, self-preservation/aggression and sex are three major human (and animal) motivations -- three main imperatives to be satisfied.

And what does Islam sez about that?

1) Hunger/greed: want something -- just take it, as long as it belongs to kufr (muslims ain't got shit worth stealing anyway);

2) Aggression: the more you kill, the more blood the meteorite idol has to drink, the better for you;

3) Sex: a combination of 1) and 2) -- rape the kufr all you want, 'tis all cool with the black boulder.

So, Islam appeals to the basic -- and base -- human urges; to something we in the civilized West have come to regard as unseemly to fully give in to, but which is nevertheless an inseparable part of our naked-ape nature.

325 Jubelum  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 12:04:10pm

237 Ali:

There is a difference between metaphor; your first quote,
parable; your second quote, and the direct command to Jihad enshrined in Suras 8, 9 & 48. When did Jesus Christ lead his troops into battle? How many wars did he engage in? Muhammad(POH) led his troops in 19 battles and sent out a total of 75 expeditions in the first ten years of his Goddamn Cult. There is no moral equivilence!!!

326 RickZ  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 12:19:22pm

# 313 Ali:

Oh, I got over right quick, heathen. FYI, Christianity is not a deity. Drop dead, you idjit.

BTW, you're the only idjit I've heard mention a heathen canon, other than the projectile kind, when applied to that barbarous cult. Also, heathen base, that's spelled al-qaeda, right?

327 DP111  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 12:24:55pm

59 arbertadude

I have been shouting and crying like a lone man in the wilderness for over 20 years that ISLAM is a danger to humanity...

So have I, but for over 30 years (since June 1967 precisely).

These are seminal articles in the DT, the largest circulation quality press in the Anglo-Saxon world. The first one was just last week (6th July- Dr Williams, beware of false prophets), again by Will Cummins. In todays article, he more or less, calls Islam a 'catastrophe' and 'repulsive'. Things are hotting up and soon Islam is going to feel the heat.
---
I do not think Islam can be reformed or any renaissance is possible. There is nothing in the Koran that would allow such a development. All that will happen is its eventual destruction.

Islam has taken on the newest and most powerful religion in the world, the creed of Freedom. This religion is the broadest of Churches, and welcomes all religions or no religion, within its fold. It is the most benign and tolerant of all ideologies and allows everyone to have any opinion they want.

However there is a dark side of this religion. If this religion feels itself threatened, it is the most intolerant and ruthless in the entire history of mankind. It has no divine moral compunctions whatever, and will unhesitatingly use WMD's if it so feels necessary, for its survival. It was quite willing to destroy the world several times over, just to protect itself.

A couple of years ago, President Bush was severely criticised for using 'Crusade' in his speech. However, Pres Bush was using the word in the context of bringing the religion of Freedom to the Arab/Muslim world. In the context of proselytising for this new religion, a 'Crusade', sums it up pretty well. I now feel that Pres Bush was right in using this word.

328 DP111  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 12:40:13pm

zulubaby

The list so far of Muslims I do not trust.

1. Disaffected

2. Irshad Manji

3. Steven scwartz

329 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:01:01pm
330 Q  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:01:12pm

DP111 (#328):

"Do not"?

331 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:05:24pm
332 its jake  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:07:38pm

#237 Ali

You were the first to step up to the plate and prove yourself an idiot. What in those verses commands any human to commit violence?

ROFL@Ali

333 Ali Al-Beheshti  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:12:11pm

BS"D
#326 rick

Oh, I got over right quick, heathen. FYI,christianity is not a deity. Drop dead, you idjit.


BTW, you're the only idjit I've heard mention a heathen canon, other than the projectile kind, when applied to that barbarous cult. Also, heathen base, that's spelled al-qaeda, right?

Heathen? You are the worshipper of a triune g-d, not me. Jews are by no measure heathens. If Judaism were by some stretch of the imagination considered such, what would that make you derivative xianity? Your astounding ignorance shows that the navy obviously didn't see to your education while you were being brought up. Simple point, in small words so you can comprehend, the first 6 letters of the word xxxianity are the name (or title) of a person claimed as diety by a large world religion. So, idjit yourself . Next, any body of law related to, codified by, or enshrined as divine by any religion is called canon law. Doesn't matter whether it is Halacha, catholic bulls, baptist convention approved texts, lutheran synod eclesiastical codes, or even zarthushti ragan. All is called canon law. BTW, projectile "canon" is spelled cannon. Base as refered to in my post means accepted components of doctrinal sources making up the shari'a canon. Try to be less of a hothead when posting, and your words might make a bit more sense. The name calling does you no credit either.

334 RickZ  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:17:27pm

# 333 *sshole:

Do not pass go and go right to hell, where you belong. As far as I'm concerned you've been xxxed out.

The name calling does you no credit either.

It ain't name calling when it's true.

FOAD, and as quickly as possible. It'll spare some expense.

335 its jake  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:22:29pm

A million of my protestant peoples were killed by Catholics - way more than Jews in the Inquisition and probably about as many as the crusades.

336 Ali Al-Beheshti  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:27:43pm

BS"D


#334

*sshole:
Do not pass go and go right to hell, where you belong. As far as I'm concerned you've been xxxed out.
the name calling does you no credit either.
It ain't name calling when it's true.
FOAD, and as quickly as possible. It'll spare some expense.

Having a little difficulty responding with anything other than the first refuge of the ignorant, name-calling? I expected little better, but at least I took the chance that you could over come the inane cursing and ranting so obviously your forte.

Your wishes matter not (and naught, as well) I have no sense of loss at your declamation of both death wish, and "x'ing" off.

Get a grip, or you will wind up even more bitter than you are already.

337 Beagle  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:35:42pm
...you derivative xianity?


Mine is Egyptian for the time being. Still derivative, but in a whole new way.
It's better, and makes more sense, to just take the Jews out of the loop. No more blame games.

However, even the "gnostic, Nazarean, Isis Cult" Jesus wasn't any Mohammed, a very bad man. Even the "heretical" teachings are mostly about the Father, love, and understanding. My "cannon" law is very loose.

Just had to share my reading list. Nothing to see here.

338 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:37:08pm

#327 DP111:

Islam has taken on the newest and most powerful religion in the world, the creed of Freedom. This religion is the broadest of Churches, and welcomes all religions or no religion, within its fold.

Is the Religion of Freedom the creed of Wretchard's two edged sword? I have come out strongly in saying that Islam is not reformable, but it is replaceable. The Religion of Freedom would be an excellent replacement.

#330 Q: He means he reguards those beings as apologists for Islam or practitioners of hudna.

339 DP111  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:38:23pm

31 ploome b

Will Cummins first article in the DT

[Link: portal.telegraph.co.uk...]

340 its jake  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:43:36pm

Fundamentalist Christianity = Bible (sola scriptura)
Fundamentalist Islam = Koran
Fundamentalist Catholicism = Bible + Dogma

Non-Fundamentalist Christianity = Bible + Dogma
Non-Fundamentalist Islam = Koran + Dogma

Get It?

The Protestant Reformation was all about turning Christianity into Fundamentalist Christianity by getting rid of the extra-biblical beliefs, which ended up making it more peaceful as a side effect.

The Catholic reformation (what a term!) also made Catholicism more peaceful, but it did this by changing its dogma instead of getting rid of its dogma altogether.

Because the Koran expressly commands violence, any peaceful reformation of Islam will result in a non-fundamentalist Islam, i.e. one in which the Koran is modified by modern teaching.

341 Ben B  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:44:28pm

# 314 jinnderella

D'accord. You must be the Twisterella of yore.

The salient thing is that the genome of the organism is now known: And the phenotypic shifts of that genome are now quite clear.

Only a matter of time.

342 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:45:57pm
343 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:46:16pm

#336 Ali Al-Behesti:
I do not censor you for writing x for Christ, IMHO you have every right. But it is very offensive to many beings here. In the interest of courtesy, and to prevent the interruption of future pleasureable discourses, could you please refrain, only here?

344 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:52:13pm

#341 Ben B: Yes, it is me! :-)
I had an accident during registration involving a lightning strike, a silly cat ("al-qittus sa'il"), and my Iraqi dictionary-- this is how I wound up!
Truly, it is amusing!

345 Q  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:53:20pm

jinnderella (#338):

He means he reguards those beings as apologists for Islam or practitioners of hudna.

That's what I thought, too. I remember Stephen Schwatz's LGF posts -- as well as some of his other writings -- well enough to agree with that assessment.

Haven't read DA much, but the above is also entirely possible in her case.

As for Manji, I'm curious what she'd done to get on that list -- I once counted her among the honest and decent Muslims (all 3 of them), along with that hijab-ed Canadian chick of "Muslims for Israel".

346 DP111  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 1:54:13pm

330 Q

Yes, unfortunately, DO NOT. Anyone who has read the koran, and still knowingly admits to be a Muslim of whatever persuasion, is in one form or the other, practicing Taqqiya. That is deception of the Infidel in the accepted sense or deceiving themselves. It is a matter of opinion, which is the worse of the two kinds of deception.

347 Q  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 2:01:34pm

DP111 (#346):

That is deception of the Infidel in the accepted sense or deceiving themselves.

Sadly, you're probably right -- and quite obviously so in Schwartz's case.

348 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 2:19:53pm

#346 DP111: That is exactly what I said to EE, those beings are no longer muslims, they are something else. Islam has many fierce protections against reformation.

349 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 2:33:12pm

#337 Beagle: That is a good list, or start-of-list! I find the Knights Templar pretty fascinating. :)

350 Ali Al-Beheshti  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 3:10:58pm

BS"D
#343 Jinderella

Quote: "I do not censor you for writing x for Christ, IMHO you have every right. But it is very offensive to many beings here. In the interest of courtesy, and to prevent the interruption of future pleasureable discourses, could you please refrain, only here?"

I thank you for a reasonable approach. BTW I think you mean censure (expression of strong disapproval, or harsh criticism). It is unfortunate that using an alphabetic place holder offends some few of the folk here, but I am unaware of another way to refer to the followers of that man without violating my own religious precepts by expressing the name of a foreign deity. If you can find a middle-path place holder that will not irk the hair triggered, please post it.

#332 jake

Quote: "#237 Ali

You were the first to step up to the plate and prove yourself an idiot. What in those verses commands any human to commit violence?"

How is it, that by citing the command of that man to his followers to go and buy a sword (not a peaceful household implement), even if they must sell their cloak in order so to do, that you do not recognise the violence implicit in that call? If you are unwilling to accept that there are inciteful verses in the book of the followers of that man, then you are being intellectually dishonest. To attempt to cover such by comparison to the arch-fiend mo ham head is disingenuous.

351 DP111  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 3:14:20pm

347 Q, 348 jinderella

Steven Schwartz would like us to believe that if Wahhabism was defeated then all will be fine. This is pure fantasy or he is being economical with the truth. The problem as we all know, is not Wahhabism but the Koran itself.

In the case of Irshad Manji, we have a very similar case to that of a poster on LGF, 'Disaffected'. She had similar views to Manji. However when pressed, given what she thought of Islam, why she did not leave Islam, her response, after much hmming haaing, was that there were many good things in Islam and she hoped for a Reformation. Pure nonsense. Islam cannot be reformed, as it is the word of Allah, unlike the Bible, which was inspired by God and not the word of God in the literal sense.

Irshad Manji when questioned, why she does not leave Islam, replies in the same apologetic and devious way, that are many good things in Islam and she hopes for a more peaceful interpretation of the Koran or a Reformation. On both counts, she knows that this is not possible. So why the deception? As long as she continues to define herself as a Muslim, ipso facto, she believes that Mohammed is the messenger of Allah and is the role model for mankind. How on earth anyone can honestly regard Mohammed as a role model for mankind, beats me. They say that man created god in his own image. Mohammed certainly created his god in his image and for his convenience.

So why does she and Schwartz do it. To me, there is lurking suspicion, that this all part of the war. Deception and disinformation have always been part of a major war and both Schwartz and Manji are practising it. In the last to years there has been a hue and cry in the West, trying to raise the Moderate Muslims (MM). This desire to find MM is crucial to continuation of multi-culturalism. Without MM, the whole project dies. The LLL thus gives these two far greater space then honest ex-Muslims such as Ali Sena and Ibn Warraq.

And so here they are, Schwartz and Manji, for their own reasons, willing to satisfy the panic search for MM. But these two have their own reasons. As confessed Muslims, they realise that the Muslim project in the West is at a dangerous pass. No MM and the PC multi-culti LLL media will begin to come to conclusions that endangers the ummah in the West. So the LLL multi-crowd and the Ummah both need each other for their own particular projects. However, given the exponential growth of the Ummah in the West, all it requires is for Manji, Schwartz and others who may follow them, to lull the West for another 30 years or so. By then it will be too late, according to their way of thinking, for LLL and us, to do anything about it. Well they are wrong. In fact fatally wrong. The religion of Freedom does not care about numbers. All it cares is its own survival and it will ensure that by whatever means it considers necessary.

I think we would be far better relying on Ali Sena of Faithfreedom.org, when he states that Islam cannot be reformed. He probably, has far more knowledge and understanding of Islam then Manji or Schwartz. Honesty is the one single attribute that seem to be missing from the writings of Manji and Schwartz. It is what damns them.

352 Albertadude  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 3:35:00pm

DP111...good to know someone has been out there longer then I warning about the dangers of Islam...

I see you have been calling down Islam since the 6 day war!! Were you involved in that Great Battle??

Thanks

353 Albertadude  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 3:37:21pm

Sorry jinderalla...I hear where you are coming from...

Devon

354 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 3:45:55pm

#350 Ali Al-Behesti: LOL, I am discov'rd yet again! It was my atrocious spelling that forced me into the ignoble profession of mathematics! I am shameless in my attempts to appear erudite! :-)
I will think and research to find a compromise...wish me luck!

#351 DP111:

The religion of Freedom does not care about numbers. All it cares is its own survival and it will ensure that by whatever means it considers necessary.

I like that very much-- it sounds inexorable, like a simulated annealing process or a self-organizing system. Very elegant.

355 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 3:50:47pm

#353 Albertadude: LOL, you were not the only one to mistake me-- it is a tricky concept. Thank you for *getting* it.

356 daniel2  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 3:53:22pm

Interesting how these "love all" laws get started in totally amoral European countries, then first hit the U.K., then hit America. After America accepts them, then the whole world goes for it.

Let's pray Mr. Blunkett is backed by the angels today!!!

357 DP111  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 4:02:19pm

352 Albertadude

Not directly. At the time, I was a young graduate assistant working alongside some visiting profs from Technion. It was then that I began to take an interest in Islam. What struck me in months preceeding June 1967, was the murderous intent of the Arab media. They were openly crowing that they would slaughter all the Jewish men and then have their way with Israeli girls. And this, in their officially sanctioned English language broadcasts. I just could not believe the depravity I was hearing. It lead me, and this did not take long, to the source of the problem. What I read in the Koran, left me speechless. I could imagine how a book such as the koran, could be considered holy by a significant portion of humanity.

In contrast, the calm dignity of the Isreali profs, was impressive. They continued their professional activities, even though one could see in their faces that they were frightened. Frightened, that a nation that had come into being after 2000 years, could vanish after an existence of a mere 20 years. Bear in mind, that at the time, no one but a few insiders in the IDF knew that the IDF was going to knock the much vaunted Arab warrior for six.

Well anyway. For the last three decades, as I travelled around the globe, from Europe, US, Oz etc , I did my best, in my most polite and Liberal manner, to warn all of the dangers of Islam. I was politely ignored. It became more urgent in the last two decades, as Muslim immigration picked up. I had more or less given up hope for the West, when 9/11 happened. I hope LGF will forgive me when I say, that despite the catastrophe of 9/11, I saw a silver lining.

358 DP111  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 4:07:07pm

re 357

I could imagine how a book such as the koran, could be considered holy by a significant portion of humanity.

Should read

I could not imagine how a book such as the koran, could be considered holy by a significant portion of humanity.

359 Jubelum  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 4:58:11pm

318 Jinnderella:

Actually, my specialty is Jubela, but when Netscape had monitors on their boards, the two milder brothers got banned. Even the mildest of them used a great deal of obscenity & profanity when confronted with duplicitous stupidity from Arabists.

Your nick, on the other hand, would imply a connection with Jinn; the Islamic equivilent of demons.

360 DP111  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 4:59:49pm

354 jinderella

Thanks.

One of these days you have to give me a primer on memes, memetic thingummys, annealing processes and all the science stuff you allude to.

Its late. Gotta go to work in the morn. G'night

361 Jubelum  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 5:38:08pm

312 RickZ:

I believe that the Hadith & Sira are also considered canonical by Islam. The Qur`an lacks chronology & context. Only its partners can supply them. I refer you to
The Prophet of Doom, wherein Craig Winn synthesizes the various sources to expose Islam's true core.

362 Jubelum  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 5:59:29pm

350 Ali:

I am firmly convinced that the sword reference was defensive, not aggressive. It was after the ressurection, and J.C. knew that his Apostles would be physically persecuted.

The contrast between J.C. & Muhammad(POH) is stark. The former prayed for his enemies. The latter ordered his followers to murder his critics.

363 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 6:10:37pm

#359 Jubelum: I got my nic from al-qittus sa'il, "the silly cat", in an argument over pre-Islamic poetry.

In pre-Islamic Arabia, the jinnuum were asociated with love, madness, and poetic inspiration. They could appear to the desert traveler in a variety of forms, lure him off the path, and destroy him. The power of the jinnuum is immense: but they are neither pure light like the angels nor pure evil.


I am fascinated with pre-Islamic history, is all.
But most beings here would judge me as the pure evil, at least sometimes! ;-p

364 Ali Al-Beheshti  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 6:30:00pm

BS"D

Jinderella,

In Jahaliyyah mythos, the djinn are a seperate creation, made of smokeless flame. Part of this mythos was co-opted by mo ham head. He cast shaitan as "Iblis" who led the djinn in revolt after being ordered to bow to adam. The quote attributed to Iblis is "how is it that we (created) of the smokeless flame should bow to this creature made of dirt (earth). For this arrogance (maghrur) the djinn were cast down amongst the 'Ifrit and other vile spirits.

#362 Jubelum

I have no doubt that the contrasts between that man and mo ham head are quite stark, see my posts for exactly such sentiment, however it is quite the case that many passages in the book of the followers of that man are inciteful, and have been used to justify murder by his less enlightened followers.

365 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 6:55:16pm

Ali Al-Behesti! *claps hands with joy* I am a student of the Jahaliyyah! I believe the False Prophet stole the Bedouin culture with the subjugation of the Great Warrior Poet Ka'b through the Burdha Ode. If I had lived then, I would have been a rawi, like the Jashiriyya, and competed in the poetry contests! :-)

I have also thought on our other problem-- could you say Jesus-followers or Jesus-ism? Jesus is the man and not the deity, correct?

366 Cornish Intifada  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 8:41:43pm

Speakers Corner ...I remember when some Allahbots caught fire and slapped n American tourist for calling their relgion violent hahahaha

I guess Grayp, if I was going to do anything violent towards hypocrites like that paki waving the pali flag Speakers corner would be the first place I would hit...
I think some welsh people should go down there with some screwdrivers and hammers...protest the occuption of Wales by people like the pali flag waving paki...

367 Aisha  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 8:42:09pm

Criticize Islam? Why would anyone want to do that? Islam's perfect!

368 its jake  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 10:43:49pm

Ali, this is where your idiocy shows:

Luke 22
35 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?"
So they said, "Nothing."
36Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: "And He was numbered with the transgressors.'[4] For the things concerning Me have an end."
38So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords."
And He said to them, "It is enough."

Two swords for twelve people, Ali, is not a command to kill. It's a command for prudence in self defense, and, in fact, what the disciples already had was enough, so it ended up not being a command to buy any weapons.

Jesus knew he would soon be killed and His followers persecuted. Persecution tends to be by fewer people, though, when the persecuted individuals have a sword.

They did not all have swords.

You have still failed, Ali, despite many posts, to show one Gospel command to kill anyone. Yet you claim and boast that you have done so. That is why you are an idiot.

369 its jake  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 10:50:49pm

Here, let me show you, Ali, what a command to kill someone looks like:

---

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors". 2:190

"And slay them (the infidels) wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter". 2:191

"And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppressions, and there prevail justice and Faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression". 2:193

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not". 2:216

"Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him
who fighteth in the cause of Allah, whether he is slain or gets victory soon shall we give him
a reward of great (value)". 4:74

"Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or
helpers from their ranks". 4:89

"Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home". 4:95

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly". 8:60

"O Prophet! Rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred; if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding". 8:65

"Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, and heal the breasts of the Believers". 9:14

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which
hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from
among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission and feel
themselves subdues". 9:29

"Say: can you expect for us (and fate) other than one of two glorious things (martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment (for not believing in Allah) from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you". 9:52

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war): but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practise regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful". 9:5

---

Put up or shut up, Ali: find something like the above in the Gospels.

370 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 10:55:23pm

#367 Aisha! Where have you been, you naughty muslimah! I have been so worried! I shall ask denbike to discipline you, he's good at it! :)

371 jinnderella  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 11:07:35pm

Its jake: Please stop yelling, you're hurting my head. I think scriptural arguments are really tough. I don't think Ali is any fan of the False Prophet, he calls him Mo ham head and the archfiend. I can't imagine anyone here would argue that the False Prophet was a better being than Jesus Christ. The fact remains that Christianity did do a fair bit of slaughtering at points in its history.
And anyways, why does this bother you if the Bible is not subject to literal interpretation?

372 Kalev  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 11:34:59pm

Excellent article! However, he overstates the character of Judaism's position on conversion. It is true that, formally, Judaism discourages converts and certainly halachic (ie in accordance with traditional Jewish legal norms) conversion is a lengthy and challenging process. However, it is far from impossible to convert to Judaism. The formal discouragements and two-year-plus learning/practice process test the convert's sincerity as well as allow the convert to assess his/her own motivation. In Judaism, conversion is seen as irreversible and the religious court that converts a person takes spiritual responsibility for the conduct of the person they approve. Therefore it is of utmost importance to the convert that he is completely convinced that this is the correct course for him - and the rabbis have to be convinced that this person before them can reasonably be expected to pursue the moral and ethical path expected of any righteous Jew. This attitude is underpinned by a much more telling difference between Judaism and Christianity/Islam: the latter two believe that individuals can enter heaven only through their belief systems. Judaism, on the other hand, recognises that ANY human being can enter the kingdom of heaven - what counts is their behaviour, not their beliefs. Hence, there is no imperative for someone to convert to Judaism and adopt its strictures.

373 Thom  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 11:54:20pm

Ali Al-Beheshti -

As for your abjection to my use of xian, do get over it, no religious Jew will spell out or speak the name of any other diety.

Oy. Must be hell to be Jewish and a student of comparative religion ... Or is that not a legitimate field of study?

And how did you become hafez al-koran without saying "allah" a million times?

I do not understand this hang-up about certain proper nouns. But that is just me.

374 BRUTUS  Sun, Jul 11, 2004 11:56:37pm

Saying that Islam is a religion is like saying that David Karesh was the Messiah.

It's a frickin death cult, and rather than affording it better protection under the law, it should be stripped of its status as a religion, and thus not be subject to any constitutionally protected religious freedoms.

Now, I am going to drink some Guyana Kool Aid and wait for the moonmen to appear.

375 EE  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 10:08:35am

Islam differs in major ways from Christianity. For example, as IIRC Bernard Lewis has pointed out, Islam does not have a separate Jesus, Paul, and Constantine. Mohammed serves as everything: the paragon to be emulated, the founder of the religion, the power to spread it. Some call the religion, or used to call the religion, Mohammedanism, but Muslims do not like that name.

Also, militant jihad has always been a part of the Muslim religion. In that sense, it has been a warrior religion. And it is today also. Christianity had its Crusades, but as Lewis pointed out, that was a late, feeble, time-limited, and ultimately unsuccessful attempt to respond to the Muslims' jihad. Afterward, the west found better ways to contain jihad that were not religion-based.

And today, the war against jihadism should not be religion-based, and it isn't. Because besides Christianity that needs to oppose jihadism, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Jews (who are the canaries in the mine, and have been especially targeted by the jihadists), the Sudanese animists, and all of the rest of the kafir world needs to be in ranks of those who oppose jihadism. And also those Muslims who understand that they will be targets of the jihadists can and should join the war against jihadism.

376 Throbert McGee  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 10:21:42am
As for your abjection to my use of xian, do get over it, no religious Jew will spell out or speak the name of any other diety.

Oy. Must be hell to be Jewish and a student of comparative religion

Indeed. It would also seem to rule out, say, Classics and Egyptology as academic fields, and would severely restrict one's career as a travel writer.

377 EE  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 10:33:46am

As Khalid Duran has pointed out, Islam today is in need of an Enlightenment. It needs to have an atmosphere in which Muslims can discuss Islam without fear of being murdered.

And this Enlightenment may need to develop in the west, where there is freedom of expression, but ultimately it needs to exist throughout the Muslim world.

The Wahhabis are, IMO, the principal opponents of any age of enlightenment in Islam. They want things to stay as they were in the 7th century, they want nothing to ever change. And the Saudi-Wahhabis have the oil money to prevent any age of enlightenment, and the control over the haj (with control over the 2 holy cities), as well as the financial power and religious zeal to prevent any age of enlightenment from occurring.

For one thing, with an Enlightenment, many versions of Islam could flourish without fear of persecution. Saudi Arabia might lose its intolerance and spreading of intolerance. (As Stephen Schwartz, an American who is a Sufi Muslim, has urged.)

For another, there could be interpretations of the holy scripture of Islam that are in accord with the basic values of civilization, instead of the murder-encouraging interpretations that are prevalent today. (As Tashbih Sayyed, an American of the Muslim faith, has urged.)

For another, the statements in the Koran itself could be questioned as to their origin, and it could be asked why the Koran itself is so contradictory. (As Irshad Manji, a Canadian of the Muslim faith, has urged.)

All is possible, but only if an Age of Enlightenment occurs.

378 EE  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 10:46:35am

re #377, Khalid Duran's call for an Enlightment in Islam can be found in his book Children of Abraham: An Introduction to Islam for Jews.

Duran is a Muslim.

It is obvious why any sane Muslim would want the right to speak without the fear of being murdered -- that's what the Enlightenment would be about -- and that's what the Wahhabis oppose.

379 ben-ami  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 10:48:29am

313 Ali etc.

As for your abjection to my use of xian, do get over it, no religious Jew will spell out or speak the name of any other diety.

Really? Interesting. Then the people at the Orthodox Union must all be apostates, huh? And I notice that you seem to have no problem typing out "Jesus", although the same sorts of people who have problems spelling "Christianity" have also been used to use euphemisms like Yeshu.

Look, you may not be comfortable using the word Christianity, but please don't publicly claim that your practices are the model for Jewish religious behavior. Lots of religious Jews, in fact, DO spell out the word Christianity.

(The really funny thing is that writing Christianity as Xianity didn't originate as a Jewish practice - it's an abbreviation. The X is really a Greek chi, the first letter of christos. Like in Xmas.)

380 PDM  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 11:04:53am
As for your abjection to my use of xian, do get over it, no religious Jew will spell out or speak the name of any other diety.

Ridiculous. There is no Jewish law to support such a practice. It is a matter of personal choice only.
So please don't speak for all religious Jews when supporting your annoying observance of a non-law.

You've offended Jews and Christians alike here with that. Way to go mitzvah boy.

381 ben-ami  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 11:27:07am

thom

And how did you become hafez al-koran without saying "allah" a million times?

Wait, wait, wait - he won't write the word "Christianity" out in full, but he's memorized the Koran? Something's fishy here...

382 jinnderella  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 1:04:03pm

EE, this is the same point I've been trying to make-- once you dissent, you are...no...longer...a...muslim. You are not one of the ummah or the amanu, the analogy is excommunicated. Islam is built to withstand reform, it has many mechanisms that guard against dissent.

Thom, ben-ami, so strict-- I think Ali will accept Jesus or Yeshua to avoid offending others. And you're right, I don't think he can mantle himself with the voice of all jews. He should speak for himself.

One thing I love about this place is the extreme diversity, and the extreme tolerance . I have seen many arguments involving religion and faith, but mostly beings make their points, and unite in comradeship against the greater adversary. I have learned a lot here, about other faiths. And where else would such as I be tolerated? You know the Name of my god-- ACGT-- the god is in the genes! :)

383 Ali Al-Beheshti  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 6:22:55pm

BS"D

thom, ben, etc.

First, the "so-called" orthodox union is hardly machmir in their observance. They seek every possible heter to make observance a watered down as possible. No chalav yisroel, no pat yisroel, bishul akum, kemach yoshon, etc., etc. So I am not even slightly surprised that they will write out names that the more seriously Dathi would not consider.


As for your fish fixation ben, being temani it was considered wise to know the kitab ilkalib. In the course of memorisation I never mentioned the name of the moon diety aloud. Writing it was never a question, in that the memorisation process for this collection of waraqat il khara is by reading and listening only. If you are not sufficiently versed in Halachic observance to understand the concept of a "chumra" in observance then you are obviously not one fit to begin to judge actual *real* Halachot.

384 Beagle  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 6:36:10pm

Steyn Rips Blunkett

One of the reasons Arab nations are in the state they're in is because of the inability to discuss Islam honestly. I was in Amman for the Jordanian election last year and one of the things you notice is that, although the city does a reasonable impression of a modern dynamic capital and its press is, by the standards of the region, free-ish, its stunted political culture is subordinate to its religious culture. That's why, for example, Article 340 of the Jordanian Penal Code - which effectively licenses "honour killings" - always gets renewed when it comes up in parliament.

That's another reason the British Government should not be in the business of helping coercive lobby groups further stifle debate. Islam raises political questions that Judaism or Buddhism don't - the suggestion, for example, that Muslim women should be exempt from the requirement to be photographed on national identity cards. Without Blunkett's law, there'll be the odd crusty type from the shires huffing on BBC phone-ins that if Muslim women think it's insulting to be made to remove their hejab for ID cards, they should bloody well have thought about that before moving to Britain.

With Blunkett's law, we'll discuss such questions, if at all, between tightly imposed government constraints explicitly favouring one party to the dispute. I know which one of those options any self-respecting liberal democracy ought to prefer.

In The River War (1899), Winston Churchill's account of the Sudanese campaign, there's a memorable passage which I reproduce here while I'm still able to:

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

385 PDM  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 7:08:37pm

#383 Ali Al-Beheshti,

I know a good doctor who can remove that stick.

386 Geepers  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 7:13:20pm

PDM,

Doctor? Sheez, you'd need a battalion of mining engineers, a demolition crew and a deep excavation team.

387 Ali Al-Beheshti  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 7:27:00pm

BS"D

PDM

Quote from my post: "As for your objection to my use of xian, do get over it, no religious Jew will spell out or speak the name of any other diety."

Your (wrong) Response: "Ridiculous. There is no Jewish law to support such a practice. It is a matter of personal choice only.
So please don't speak for all religious Jews when supporting your annoying observance of a non-law.

You've offended Jews and Christians alike here with that. Way to go mitzvah boy. "

Your next reponse after being shown to be in error:
"#383 Ali Al-Beheshti,

I know a good doctor who can remove that stick. "

So, is this your version of how an Observant Orthodox Jew should communicate? I daresay that I am quite entitled to speak about the accepted observance among the Dathi (sometimes called the Ultra-Orthodox). If you don't like the fact the many Chumraot exist and are to be observed by Dathi Jews, perhaps you should take it up with the author of the Halachot, Hashem Ha Kodesh. Then perhaps you will not first make false accusations against one who is observant, and secondly, not make vulgar slurs when you are called on your errors.

388 jinnderella  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 8:39:22pm

*sigh* Geepers, PDM, why must you spoil my fun? If you don't like what Ali says, scroll on. I would really like to learn something about oral/aural traditions and the memorization process, and you are hindering me! Grrr, do I ever interfere with someone you want to talk to?

389 Geepers  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 8:56:01pm

jinnderella,

I'm not sure you've decided on a very good teacher.

This one likes to call people house-jew and kapo when they disagree with him.

Which makes his sanctimonious:

not make vulgar slurs when you are called on your errors.

line pretty laughable.

So learn away, just don't question his authority, he's got a mean streak a mile wide.

390 PDM  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 9:02:56pm

#387 Ali Al-Beheshti,

from your comment:

no religious Jew

then

Your (wrong) Response: "Ridiculous. There is no Jewish law to support such a practice. It is a matter of personal choice only.

Cite the law that requires all religious Jews to follow the same practice you observe regarding spelling out the word "Christian" or keep your pompous pie hole shut so you don't falsely accuse me of being wrong.
I called a religious authority before I made my comment.
So mitzvah boy show me some laws of observance universally recognized throughout the (Orthodox) Jewish world, or, again, shut up.
Because you said "no religious Jew will." That means that all religious Jews will not. Right?
I mean we're not talking about driving on Shabbos or something so obvious as that. We're talking about your petty little minhag of spelling out a word.
But perhaps it's not so petty to you since you are willing to offend several HaShem's creatures over the use of pixels.

Your next reponse after being shown to be in error:

No, actually you've still failed to do that.

I know a good doctor who can remove that stick. "

So, is this your version of how an Observant Orthodox Jew should communicate?

You actually inspire much worse, so be grateful.

You're really great at turning tables since any observant Jew with a bit of common sense can easily point out that you're on a high horse about what you put into your mouth:

No chalav yisroel, no pat yisroel, bishul akum, kemach yoshon, etc., etc.

But you're not very concerned about what comes out of it. Do I recall correctly that you're the one who once called me a "house Jew"?

Look, you should tone it down if you don't like the comments you're attracting. It's obvious that you haven't annoyed only one little "house Jew."

I daresay that I am quite entitled to speak about the accepted observance among the Dathi (sometimes called the Ultra-Orthodox).

Ah, so that applies to the Dathi and not all religious Jews. Isn't that called minhag (custom)? (I think you lose.) The least you can do is admit it is merely a custom and mot make it out to be some law that all religious Jews follow.

If you don't like the fact the many Chumraot exist and are to be observed by Dathi Jews

I made no comment about what I like or what I don't like. I commented on not liking that you attempted to speak for all religious Jews.
My use of the word "annoying" in my initial post could be taken that way, but you can't say that you haven't annoyed posters here with it (or your tone), so you can't precisely attribute it to my feelings. But just to be clear, I find Ali far more annoying than any spelling preference.

Then perhaps you will not first make false accusations against one who is observant, and secondly, not make vulgar slurs when you are called on your errors.

Actually, you didn't even address my specific point, or me, until I mentioned your stick.

Hey, Ali. You know what you need? You need to join The Chumra of the Week Club

Are you jealous of Yankel's Chumras? Do you want to go one (or more!) better than Shmerl? Have you ever been tongue-tied when asked: "Maybe you have a new little Chumraleh for me?" If you have been faced by any of these dreadful scenarios, join up now!

To custom-tailor your Chumra selection, please fill in the following:
Litvak? ___ Chassid? ___ FBB? (Frum Before Birth?)___
391 jinnderella  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 9:06:38pm

#389 Geepers: LOL! He cannot be as mean as my last teacher, non?

392 PDM  Mon, Jul 12, 2004 9:37:55pm

#389 Geepers,

This one likes to call people house-jew and kapo when they disagree with him.

:)
Thanks for the memories pal.

393 ben-ami  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 4:15:08am

ali al beheshti

If you are not sufficiently versed in Halachic observance to understand the concept of a "chumra" in observance then you are obviously not one fit to begin to judge actual *real* Halachot.

But then again, I'm not the one claiming that the chumra of not spelling out "Christian" is the non-negotiable, sine qua non hallmark of being a religious Jew.

394 ben-ami  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 4:21:41am

390 PDM

Hey, Ali. You know what you need? You need to join The Chumra of the Week Club

Oh my! It sounds like several high school students and college undergrads I know are already members of this service... :-)

395 jinnderella  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 6:31:53am

Hey, guys, I was under the impression that Ali was amenable to using some placeholder other than 'x' in discussion! I realize you all have have a lot of baggage to exorcise, but I have one question for you-- is Ali a troll? I don't think so, and I would like to talk to him, and I can't get a word in edgewise!

Is this thread just going to grind down off the page, devolving in bitter unresolveable sparring? Or could you graciously accept letting Ali use a placeholder for 'x' and move on from there?

396 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:32:07am

BS"D

Jinderella,

Sorry, but a goodly number of these folk have issues with anyone who is unapologetically Dathi. They react with slurs rudeness when their accomadationist agenda seems threatened. As example, the fellow who makes much of my citation of a chumra as (in his opinion) law. If he were to check with genuinely Orthodox religious authority he would know that chumraot, and minhagim have the authority of law in the communities from whence they originate. To claim otherwise is at best disingenuous, at worst downright dishonest.

When these folk cannot even acknowledge that they have made a factual error, but rather turn to insult, refusing to address the issue at hand, they then prove themselves insincere in debate and (seemingly) only interested in promoting and promulgating their own accomodationist view.

If you have any specific questions about jahaliyya practices & mythos suborned into eslam by the meme-kleptarch mo ham head, please ask. I would (preferably in email) enjoy sharing what I learned being brought up in the lands wherein much of the jahaliyyi mythos was forged.

397 ben-ami  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:42:36am

395 jinderella

The question is not his use of "place holders", as far as I am concerned. He can call Christianity Xianity, Yianity, or Zianity, and I'll be happy. The problem is when he claims that his practice is somehow binding on all "religious Jews".

398 ben-ami  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:47:18am

398

ali al beheshti

If he were to check with genuinely Orthodox religious authority he would know that chumraot, and minhagim have the authority of law in the communities from whence they originate

Ay, there's the rub: in the communities from whence they originate. My problem with your posts is your claiming that your community's chumrot are such that "no religious Jew" would do otherwise.

399 ben-ami  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:52:08am

Doh. "Aye", not "Ay".

400 jinnderella  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:57:12am

Ali A-Behesti: here is my email, but I will not cave into those intellectual bullies! Like Ed Moran (a poster whose opinion I highlyrespect) said, you have contributions you could make to this community. IMHO, if you can make the concession to use a placeholder in deference to the sensitivities of others, they should put aside old grudges and accept graciously!

I am very interested in the role of women in pre-Islamic society-- I have read of Futayma, who supposedly fought in battle? And the Jashiriyya, who was reputedly a rawi (rhapsode) and competed in the poetry contests and battle boasts of her tribe. There is little information on pre-Islamic history. It is like Islam wiped out everything previous with a giant hand, or else suborned it to it's own use.

401 jinnderella  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 9:03:51am

ben-ami, that may be a legitimate question of religious semantics-- I am unqualified to judge-- How then can it be resolved? Can you and Ali debate the issue without ad homs a-flyin', and antique grievances surfacing everywhere?

402 ben-ami  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 9:23:06am

Jinderella

If you point out an ad hominem on my part, I'll consider retracting it. :-)

And as far as antique grievances go, I have no history with this character prior to this thread.

403 jinnderella  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 9:48:17am

ben-ami, *my bad*, you've been a gentleman in argument, truly-- still, could you guys resolve this? In the interest of going forward? :)

404 ben-ami  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 9:53:37am

Jinderella,

Sure.

BTW, I tried to e-mail you, but for some reason couldn't use the safemail program for lgf on my laptop. If you drop me a line at lusitanista@netscape.net there is something I wanted to tell you in private by return mail...

405 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 1:35:48pm

#396 Ali Al-Beheshti,

a goodly number of these folk have issues with anyone who is unapologetically Dathi.

Wrong again. We have a problem with you projecting your customs/minhags as something that is a universally required legal practice of all religious Jews (not the first time).
You were wrong about that and have yet to admit it.
Many of us also take exception to your nasty tone. Instead of telling the posters here that your chumra (stringency) results in a minhag (custom) specific to your religious sect (which is admittedly as binding as law), you project it with the false implication that it is a universal law and a 'too bad for you and your stupid feelings' attitude.
We don't resent your observance. We resent your being a jackass.

To claim otherwise is at best disingenuous, at worst downright dishonest.

Why don't you tell us about disingenuous and dishonest? You make a big issue (without a civil explanation) about the spelling out of the word "Christianity." And in post #383 you go on about using the spelling out of the word "Allah" (the moon god) but you don't actually say whether or not your minhag permits you to do so or not. You only say that it was never an issue. So I guess it's okay for you to spell out the names of some false gods and not those of others since here you discuss the Islamic conversion procedure and actually spell out the oath required using the name "Allah."

"Ash-hadu an la illaha illa Allah, Ash-hadu ana mohammedan rasulallah" trans." I bear witness that their is no deity other than Allah

Do you still maintain this page? Why does

In the name of Allah, Merciful, Beneficent

appear at the top?
Whatever.

Let me put a challenge to you and see if your pride can handle it.
I hereby admit that I was wrong in stating that minhag was merely a matter of personal choice. It is as binding as law in communities that choose or rule to follow it. Note: not all communities do.
Now, can you admit that you were wrong for attributing your practice to all religious Jews?
Can you admit that you have some things to learn about courtesy?
Can you ever muster up enough humility to get past your Islamic influenced pride to issue a long overdue apology for calling me "house-Jew"?

406 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 1:37:17pm

And one other thing:

So, is this your version of how an Observant Orthodox Jew should communicate?

Don't tell me how I should communicate. Here are some choice Ali Al-Beheshti quotes (the same Ali who starts off his posts with BS"D)

So be careful what you say, it could really f*ck up your day!! :-)
What is that funny-looking f-word? I can't seem to make it out.
#10 foobar (undoubtedly phonetic for fubar, which as we all know is an acronym for "f*cked up beyond all recognition", hmm somehow appropos for this noodge)
Hmmm. There it is again.
To wax Vulgarian: alias my ali-ass! That happens to be my name you knee-jerk, left wing, wanking wombat weirdo, practitioner of auto procto-cranial intercourse.
Now tell me Ali, is this your version of how an Observant Orthodox Jew should communicate?

You do have a lot of great information to contribute here. People can learn a lot from your posts.
Intelligence is no substitute for kindness. And as far as I can tell, you never offer any and do not merit any.
And if you have a complaint about me to post, don't cry to Jinderella about it. Address me.

#398 ben-ami,

there's the rub: in the communities from whence they originate. My problem with your posts is your claiming that your community's chumrot are such that "no religious Jew" would do otherwise.

Exactly. Don't hold your breath waiting for him to correct it though.

Read the Gibson thread to get the real scoop on Ali and his nasty attitude.

LOL.
Ali, recall when I got this apology out of you for calling me anti-Zionist?

For (wrongly) assuming that the link provided was indeed to a posting of yours (same name) I apologise. (now, now, don't have a heart-attack)

Funny that you had to add that comment about having a heart attack. You probably have more self-awareness than I give you credit for.

407 jinnderella  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 2:00:09pm

PDM, you are an awesome poster and I deeply respect you, so please don't take this the wrong way, but could you and Ali please lash your shield arns together, draw weapons, and get this over with so we can all procede on to the War on Terror?

408 zulubaby  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 2:04:21pm

PDM, bravo. Excellent posts.

409 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 2:16:15pm

#407 jinnderella,

Getting it over with is really up to Ali. He has a long overdue apology to offer, and a nasty attitude to curb.
He treats the posters here like dreck.
Don't expect me to sit aside while he calls me disingenuous and dishonest. He makes false accusations with a sense of impunity and criticizes people for name calling when he does the same.
I'm going to call him out on that kind of BS. I'm sorry if that bothers you.

You seem to be on decent terms with the guy. Maybe you can talk some sense into him.

410 jinnderella  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 2:36:04pm

PDM:

Don't expect me to sit aside while he calls me disingenuous and dishonest.


I don't. I want you guys to get it over with in a glorious blaze of scintillating argument. And I want to listen and learn about about the Dathi and chumra and all the myriad things I don't know about Judeaism. 'Kay?

411 ben-ami  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 2:57:29pm

406 PDM

Read the Gibson thread to get the real scoop

Well, I tried, but I just couldn't stomach it. I started reading, and then I started skimming, and then I just gave up in full nausea mode.

Three things that I think we (all the Jews on this board, that is) should all keep in mind:
a) Derech eretz kodma l'Torah.
b) Gadol hashalom...
c) "...ntzor l'shoni mera, usfatai midaber mirma, v'limkal'lai nafshi tidom, vnafshi k'efar l'kol tiyeh."

412 jinnderella  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 3:15:46pm

ben-ami, translation please, for the non-jews?

413 piglet  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 3:24:56pm
Derech eretz kadmah laTorah -- The [proper] way of the world preceeds torah
> Torah
414 piglet  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 3:32:28pm

"Derech eretz" can mean either "work" or "good manners." R'
Samson R. Hirsch z"l (Germany; 19th century) explains why the
same expression is used for both:

"The term "derech eretz" includes all situations arising from and dependent upon the circumstance that the earth is a place where the individual must live, fulfill his destiny and dwell together with others, and that he must utilize resources and
conditions provided on earth in order to live and accomplish his purpose. Accordingly, the term derech eretz is used primarily to refer to ways of earning a living, to the social order that
prevails on earth, as well as to the mores and considerations of courtesy and propriety arising from social living, and also to things pertinent to good breeding, and general education."

Don't they teach this in school in the class on multicultural tolerance, just after the Native American
vision quest and just before the I am a Muslim role playing ( including wearing Hajab?)? :-)

415 ben-ami  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 3:36:12pm

Jinnderella:

a) Derech eretz kodma l'Torah.
You can translate this a couple of ways; the way I meant it was "Good manners come before Torah."

b) Gadol hashalom...
"Great is peace..."
It's the beginning of several pithy aphorisms, including one that points out that the Torah shows G-d Himself stretching the truth in order to avoid hurting someone else, and one that points out that every commandment in the Torah is written with it. Or, as one web site puts it, "Peace is the greatest thing."

c) "...ntzor l'shoni mera, usfatai midaber mirma, v'limkal'lai nafshi tidom, vnafshi k'efar l'kol tiyeh.
This is the ending of a prayer that we say three times a day. "...guard my tongue from evil, and my lips from speaking deceitfully, and to those who curse me may my soul be silent, and let my soul be as dust to all."

Or, in the words of that great humanitarian Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" :-)

Sappy, I know.

416 jinnderella  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 3:43:39pm

piglet, ben-ami, thank-you very much! Not sappy, quite beautiful. I love the language/religion pairings, like avestan/zorastrianism.

Don't they teach this in school in the class on multicultural tolerance, just after the Native American

Actually, no, not at my school-- although maybe they do now!! I went to Univ of Michigan!:-)

417 piglet  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 4:11:32pm

Hanna Senesh's Eli Eli always moved me.

ELI ELI MY GOD
Halicha L'kesariya Walk to Caesaria

Eli, Eli

Shelo yigamer le'olam:
Hachol vehayam

Rishrush shel hamayim
Berak hashamayim

Tefilat ha'adam.


---
My God, My God

May these things never end:
The sand and the sea

The rustle of the water
The lightning in the sky

Man's prayer.

[Link: www.jnf-canada.org...]

Hannah Szenes
A lesson in Courage

[Link: www.jnf-canada.org...]

418 jinnderella  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 5:37:49pm

piglet, that is just enchanting. And I bet it is even better spoken aloud.
OK, I don't *get* what there there is to fight over, if both Ali and PDM believe in these wonderful things. :(

419 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 6:31:19pm

BS"D

#406 pdm

Intelligence is no substitute for kindness. And as far as I can tell, you never offer any and do not merit any.

Yours is neither required, nor desired. If offered 'twould be rejected as the bitter gall which it would disguise.

420 jinnderella  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 6:34:29pm

Well, I jus' checked my email and nothing. I would just like to say, Ali, that I really, really liked meme-kleptarch, that was kewl! :)

421 jinnderella  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 6:38:46pm

Wow-- how often does that happen? If you think of someone in the is place, do they automatically materialize? Charles is a far better coder than I ever imagined! :)

422 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 6:41:47pm

BS"D

Jinderella,

I have sent you an email, look for a message originating from creative.net

btw, jazakh *llah ilkhair for the meme-kleptarch comment :-)

423 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 6:50:27pm

#419 Ali Al-Beheshti,

Bravo Ali. Of all of the points I made, that's what you come up with?
One thing I can say about you is that you're true to character. Mazel tov.

Thanks for continuing to prove that you are what many of us give you credit for being, a jackass. Or, perhaps more appropriately a wild-ass of a man?

jinnderella, there's your great "teacher." A real peacemaker. LOL.

424 RickZ  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 6:57:59pm

PDM (of the many posts) [and It's Jake, Geepers, ben-ami, and any others I missed]:

Didn't know I was stepping into such a spider hole with Comical Ali. I took your advice and did read the whole Gibson thread. After his # 313 post to me here, "do get over it," I was incensed at being talked down to for what I thought was a tame "I also object . . ." But what he said to me cannot even come anywhere near to what he said to you, and many others, on that other thread in the way of the viciousness of the baseless invectives hurled your way. Thank you for dotting the "i" and crossing the "t" on that piece of s*it. I think of how insulted you must have felt with the . . . , well, no need repeating that phrase here, and am astounded at your ability to keep a modicum of composure. You're a better man than I, Gunga Din. All I can really add is that I appreciate your class in dissection. It was a pleasure learning from the best.

Thank you.

425 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 6:58:59pm

BS"D

#423

Thanks for continuing to prove that you are what many of us give you credit for being, a jackass. Or, perhaps more appropriately a wild-ass of a man?

Coming from the hand of a person whose attitude would have to climb to reach parity with esav, what a (non) surprise.

426 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 7:25:09pm

#424 RickZ,

Comical Ali

That's great. Perfect for the joke poster who starts off his posts with BS"D while he issues insults.

#425 Ali Al-Beheshti,

Coming from the hand of a person whose attitude would have to climb to reach parity with esav, what a (non) surprise.

That's rich coming from the guy who cries about name calling and insults. Your inability to respond to any of my points also shows what a coward you are.
Keep digging Ali. You're so much fun for this mere "house-Jew."

BS"D? LOL. I think the Almighty just gave you some great assistance in helping you make an ass of yourself.

Yep mitzvah boy, you're a real kiddush HaShem. LOL.

427 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 7:43:44pm

BS"D

#426

Your non points require no response. Much like you they are of no import and signify nothing. It is sufficient to the day to note that every time you feel the urge to jump in it is always to jump to the side of some xian.

An (attempted) insult from one such as you is as a bracha from a tzaddik.

428 ben-ami  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 7:55:51pm

Ali al Beheshti

In the Gibson thread you said:

In our (Temani) tradition we follow the counsel of R. Shammai zt"l, not Hillel.

and

you follow Hillel, (like lighting 1 ner per night for channuka) while I follow Shammai (lighting all 8 nerot, and reducing the number by one each night) In this I find no cause for contention

Could you please provide a reference for this favoring of Beit Shammai over Beit Hillel?

429 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:07:17pm

BS"D

# 428

At the risk of tossing ossified oyster snot in the path of the porcine:

The Gemarra records a debate between the schools of Shammai and Hillel over how to fulfil the mitzvah in the best possible way. Shammai reckoned that one should light eight candles on the first day, seven on the second and six on the third etc. Hillel, whom the ashkenazi follow, argued that one should always climb in holiness, starting with one and working up to eight.

We, on the other hand accept that the first moment of the mitzvah contains the fullness of the mitzvah

430 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:09:54pm

BS"D

More..

What is at the heart of the disagreement between Beit Shammai and Beit Hillel? One possibility is that Beit Shammai seek a literal recreation of the original miracle in the Temple - the Macabees expected that the intensity of the menorah's fire would lessen gradually within one day's time, but instead it lessened only over eight days' time; hence Beit Shammai prescribe decreasing from eight candles to one in our practice. Beit Hillel, on the other hand, prefer a conceptual expression of the growing magnitude of the divine intervention over the course of the eight days.
431 ben-ami  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:25:14pm

Ali

At the risk of tossing ossified oyster snot in the path of the porcine:

Matthew 7:6, isn't it? :-)

No, I already knew Beit Shammai's position on lighting a channukia - I meant a reference for the overall preference for Beit Shammai in the Temani tradition, which is what I thought your first post in the Gibson thread meant. Can you direct me to additional information on that?

Where are those quotes from, btw?

432 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:26:53pm

#427 Ali Al-Beheshti,

Your non points require no response.

Face it you Ultra-Orthodox con artist, I cleaned up in posts #405 and #406. You probably turned so f*ck'n pale when you read those that you didn't know what to say.
So don't go on about how my "non points" didn't "require" a response. The fact of the matter is I fact checked your "is this your version of how an Observant Orthodox Jew should communicate" ass in post #406 and you haven't got the balls to admit you were wrong. And you know what you Ultra-Othodox puss? I'm going to be around to do it again if I can. You have the pride of an Islamist (not surprising considering your background).

It is sufficient to the day to note that every time you feel the urge to jump in it is always to jump to the side of some xian.

And I would jump in for an atheist, non-observant Jew, secularist, Buddhist, or any of the people that HaShem created that you feel an urge to treat like crap and talk down to you pompous Ultra-Orthodox ass!

An (attempted) insult from one such as you is as a bracha from a tzaddik.

The brachas from 50 tzaddiks couldn't help you.
Why do I get the feeling that if you saw an old man holding a sefer Torah who was falling, and you could only save one, that you would save the Torah from hitting the ground and still pat yourself on the back if the old man died from his injury.
I bet you're a Shabbos rock thrower too.

And this is how you offer a lesson to #428 ben-ami?

At the risk of tossing ossified oyster snot in the path of the porcine:

You have a great way of addressing people and offering a lesson.
Ali Al-Beheshti, go screw yourself.

433 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:29:45pm

#431 ben-ami,

Matthew 7:6, isn't it? :-)

If so, I sure missed that reference. I thought it came from the heart of Ali directed at you. An understandable error I suppose :)

434 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:32:52pm

BS"D

#431

matthew y"sh 7:6, isn't it?

I don't care to know the exact location of the quote which has made it's way into plebian discouse... I would imagine that you are probably correct. Happily I have never sought to commit much of the injeel to memory, having one book of avoda zara comitted to memory is quite a bit more than enough.

The quotes are drawn from Pardes (the Temani discussion section)

The authorities from whom we draw our instruction to follow Beit Shammai are explicitly laid out in many of the accepted Diwani d'vrei Ha Kodesh.

435 zulubaby  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:33:16pm

Ali Al-Beheshti

... jump to the side of some xian.

I can practically hear you sneering. May I remind you that "some xian" owns and operates this website and that "some xians" on this website are our friends yet you could care less who you hurt or offend. What a mensch! Besides the fact that you don't know how to handle a debate with civility, you simply have no manners.

Oh, and should you ever manage to be half the man PDM is, it'll be a good start. Shame on you.

436 zulubaby  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:34:28pm

Is Ali a Jew or a Muslim?

437 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:40:51pm

BS"D

pdm

Seems the last time you were this wroth was when someone sold you a pot of lentil soup.

Your eagerness to jump to conclusions about what that phrase in post # 431 was signifying once again showcases your amazing hypocrisy. Whether you like to recognise it or not I remain consistent in my postings.

Sadly your postings show an attitude that nearly guarantees that your grandchildren will be goyim. Schande.

438 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:43:42pm

#436 zulubaby,

Is Ali a Jew or a Muslim?

His mother is Jewish (he claims). So even if he is a shame to the Jewish people for his conduct, he is a Jew. I believe he said his dad was some kind of Iranian. No telling from Ali's past posts if his father was a Jew.
All the same, as I mentioned above, he displays the pride of an Islamist.

439 zulubaby  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:44:31pm
Whether you like to recognise it or not I remain consistent in my postings.

Yes, consistently vicious and spiteful.

440 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:51:01pm

BS"D

#439

Yes, consistently vicious and spiteful.

Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, equal wound for equal wound.

So are you a Jewess or a cow?

441 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:52:10pm
442 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:52:10pm

#437 Ali Al-Beheshti,

Your eagerness to jump to conclusions about what that phrase in post # 431

Like my eagerness to admit error in post #433?
Thanks. Once again you prove to be a moron.

Whether you like to recognise it or not I remain consistent in my postings.

Many of us recognize it. It's nothing to be proud of.

Sadly your postings show an attitude that nearly guarantees that your grandchildren will be goyim. Schande.

Ali, again you are a perfect moron. My (Levi ) son kisses the tefillin of his father, and he will teach his son the same.
You have a lot of nerve making such a disgusting curse upon my future generations.
I would expect no less from someone like you.
Not only do you treat the Jews and goyim of today like crap, you also curse the unborn.

443 zulubaby  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:56:23pm
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, equal wound for equal wound.

Awww, poor baby. You started this. Are you now casting yourself as a victim? How Islamic of you. Shaddap already you idiot.

444 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 8:59:33pm

BS"D

#442

you also curse the unborn.

So, from mr. jump to defend the goyim if I post xianity and take no guff over it, you now post that saying that your grandchildren may be goyim is a curse? Ah logical consistency check.

If you were but a bit brighter you might qualify as a fool.

445 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 9:05:59pm

#444 Ali Al-Beheshti,

So, from mr. jump to defend the goyim if I post xianity and take no guff over it, you now post that saying that your grandchildren may be goyim is a curse?

Wishing the end of a Jewish lineage (of Levim) is a curse.

Don't mix the issues with your Islamic logic.

I called you out on treating people like crap, (HaShem's creations Mr. Ultra-Orthodox shame of Jews everywhere) and you continue to do it.

Ah logical consistency check.

zulubaby, ploome hineni,

I think we have discovered the first Jewish pig.

446 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 9:08:01pm

BS"D

#433

Your words are as the scirroco of the empty quarter, false, poisonous & empty.

Of course to translate your words to the pedestrian vernacular, they bear great resemblance to "nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah" what a laugh.

447 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 9:15:29pm

BS"D

#445

zulubaby, ploome hineni, I think we have discovered the first Jewish pig.

Nu? It took you this long to look in the mirror ? Ah ben korah, you honour your ancestry with your near acephalic intellect.

Toda raba for the laughter.

448 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 9:23:58pm

Ali Al-Beheshti,

Don't you think you're kind of blowing it when people start asking if you're a Jew or a Muslim?

The posters here know a lot about Muslims, so if they start asking, it might be time for you to pause and consider your conduct (or strap on your explosive belt).

Oh, and thank you for the Ultra-Orthodox laughs.
We'll all look forward to your declarations of Ultra-holiness contrasted with your disgusting conduct for great comic effect in the future.

449 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 9:29:44pm

BS"D

#448

We'll all look forward to your declarations of Ultra-holiness contrasted with your disgusting conduct for great comic effect in the future.

As usual when ad hominem fails you, you resort to lying. (Such a big surprise that) I defy you to find any place where I claim holiness for myself... if you can't (and you won't be able, since I have never promulgated such a claim) you will be shown to be a liar. No big surprise there, unfortunately.

450 ben-ami  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 9:41:09pm

As entertaining as this back and forth may be, do you think that it's really quite the image of Jewish unity and ahavat yisrael that needs to be paraded in front of the Christians and other non-Jews - including Muslims, I'm sure - who read this board?

451 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 9:50:48pm

BS"D

#450

do you think that it's really quite the image of Jewish unity and ahavat yisrael that needs to be paraded in front of the Christians and other non-Jews - including Muslims, I'm sure - who read this board?

ben, ahavat yisroel I have in abundance; ahavat eruv rav I seem to find myself in short supply. If you actually read all of the posts referred to you would see that I only responded when I was snarked at by someone who felt it necessary to defend some attacking xian.
It matters not to me how many people decide to act like a pack of hyenas and attack me. A lesson our people learned long ago is to never let an attack go unchallenged, if you do, in the end it will just embolden the attacker. If you show mercy to the evil, eventually you will be cruel to the innocent.

452 norar  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 9:52:17pm

Why don't you just GAZE OFF Ali abu Pretender who does not know his Tora from Kabalah from Talmud, and who'd proven beyond any resonable doubt that his sole purpose for presence on this site is to bring discord between the Jews and Christians?

453 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 9:55:15pm

#449 Ali Al-Beheshti,

Actually Ali, you are a living example of the holier than thou attitude. I've been accused of that, but you are a hands-down all time winner.
You're so lofty that you never need to apologize, never need to admit error, and can still dish out plenty of insults under the guise of you BS"Ds.

You deserve a big pat on the back and an exploding cigar.

And again, you show your inability to comprehend by calling me a liar for looking forward to your declarations of Ultra-holiness.
But hey, you really do have to call me a liar to divert attention from the real issue... your disgusting conduct (now the theme of this thread). And, your Islamic pride just will not let you do that. Will it?

#450 ben-ami,

As entertaining as this back and forth may be, do you think that it's really quite the image of Jewish unity and ahavat yisrael that needs to be paraded in front of the Christians and other non-Jews - including Muslims, I'm sure - who read this board?

Actually Ali's behavior is a great example of what can happen to someone after being immersed in an Islamic culture for too long.
Regardless of the religion of his mother, Ali's behavior is so Islamic that other posters are actually beginning to question whether or not he is really Jewish.
As for Jewish unity, I think Ali is in desperate need of a few lessons in that department, as well as simple human courtesy.

454 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 9:57:25pm

BS"D

#452

Why don't you just GAZE OFF Ali abu Pretender who does not know his Tora from Kabalah from Talmud,

Your proof for this silly assertion being, O step-child of lashon tummeh?

Your puling whinge is of less import than two agorot in a gutter.

455 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 10:02:16pm

#452 norar,

Why don't you just GAZE OFF Ali abu Pretender who does not know his Tora from Kabalah from Talmud, and who'd proven beyond any resonable doubt that his sole purpose for presence on this site is to bring discord between the Jews and Christians?

It just might be GAZE time for that one. Running up against Islamic pride is like running up against a brick wall.

#454 Ali Al-Beheshti,

Your proof for this silly assertion being, O step-child of lashon tummeh?

Your puling whinge is of less import than two agorot in a gutter.

Do you have to make sure to insult everyone who finds you offensive? Don't you have a sister to mutilate over some dishonor or something like that?

456 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 10:06:45pm

BS"D

#453

Your posts make even less sense as the night wears on. Be that as it may, let me disabuse you of one of your more egregious notions, just in case you were bellabouring under anu misaprehension, your words, in sum and in part, mean nothing to me.

You do however provide a level of comic relief that was unexpected.

457 norar  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 10:15:45pm

#454

If you were not so much in love of listening to your own bullshit, you would talk less and would not give yourself away, shmuck.

.. and now - GAZE

458 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 10:20:24pm

#456 Ali Al-Beheshti,

your words, in sum and in part, mean nothing to me.

Funny that you keep reacting to them.

:::waiting for that Islamic blood to boil over again:::

Really Ali, any hopes of arguing with you were lost much earlier. Admittedly, I do feel a bit cruel, like I'm teasing some batty Muslim until he goes nuts.
Do you mind if I call you Pali instead of Ali? :)
---

Okay, seriously, do you have any Islamic blood in your lineage? Just curious.

459 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 10:23:22pm

BS"D

#457

If you were less of a fool, you might actually know how to spell Torah. Such a shame that at your birth it was the placenta that was kept.

#455 pdm

Do you have to make sure to insult everyone who finds you offensive? Don't you have a sister to mutilate over some dishonor or something like that?

Yes, as a matter of fact I do, evil unchallenged is evil approved. By the way, hasn't your psychiatrist warned you about projecting your bizarre fantasies onto others? Naughty, naughty, you really should take your medications on schedule, it will probably stop the voices.

460 ben-ami  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 10:24:24pm

I know, let's have a quiz appropriate to the Three Weeks! Anybody know the reason the Gemara gives for the Beit HaMikdash being destroyed?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.Answer: Sinat chinam - baseless hatred.

Okay, I'm going to have a nice cup of nana tea, decompress some, and go to bed. If you guys get blook all over the website, Charles is going to be pissed.

461 ben-ami  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 10:27:47pm

Dang! Blood, not blook

462 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 10:28:47pm

BS"D

#458

Do you mind if I call you Pali instead of Ali?

If you were possesed of a goodly bit more emuna, and dedicated to far more ot avodat Hashem, you might almost qualify to be called apikoros. Oh well, at least you have a goal to strive for.

463 jinnderella  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 10:40:01pm

OK fine, this is counter productive, not clearing the air but only escalating invective.
PDM:

Don't you think you're kind of blowing it when people start asking if you're a Jew or a Muslim?

Well, I had no trouble telling, but then I was following this argument from Ed Moran's explanation onward, and not jumping in with silly uninformed invective at the last moment.
Ali Al-Beheshti: You did say you could use a placeholder for 'x', did you not? Certainly it would show good faith.
Why is everyone still holding grudges over the Amazingly Popular Passion Play-- I don't understand that-- isn't that thread over and done with? I've read the thread and it ws a devisive issue for many beings-- the "abortion" of it's day!
I am amazed at the power and beauty of the Jewish faith-- I stand in awe of it! The things piglet and ben-ami posted stir my heart-- why not yours? why is your hubris so important that you devote all this bad energy to splitting hairs?
I do not *get* it!!

464 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 10:54:04pm

#459 Ali Al-Beheshti,

Do you have to make sure to insult everyone who finds you offensive?

Yes, as a matter of fact I do, evil unchallenged is evil approved.

Oh, this is getting a bit interesting now.
So by your twisted logic, anyone who finds you offensive is evil?
And, you actually think that these pissing matches are challenging evil?

To me Ali, you're not evil. You're just a jerk.

#462 Ali Al-Beheshti,

Oh, Pali, your way of ignoring questions addressed to you is becoming so predictable. Ah, what the heck, I'll try again:

Okay, seriously, do you have any Islamic blood in your lineage? Just curious.

#460 ben-ami,

Answer: Sinat chinam - baseless hatred.

Oh well then it doesn't apply here. Any hatred expressed toward Ali here has a basis. :) (sorry, I couldn't resist)

#463 jinnderella,

Honestly, do you think your friend Ali here is being as reasonable as he can be?
Has he once admitted any wrongdoing?
NO! You know why? Because in the Islamic way of thinking, it is considered a weakness. And after all, he's fighting evil. What a joke. But I think he really believes that he's fighting evil here.

465 Ali Al-Beheshti  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 11:03:25pm

BS"D

#464

Your amazing bigotry is quite refreshing. Usually bigots of your calibre tend to mealy-mouth and weasel about. Not you, like the proverbial bull, you just charge straight ahead. *amazing*

BTW, are you not afraid of getting a nosebleed on that high horse of yours?

Your expressed strength of character is nearly mighty enough to rend a tissue to bits.

Truly you are better entertainment than a Country Yossi album.

466 jinnderella  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 11:11:55pm

PDM:

Honestly, do you think your friend Ali here is being as reasonable as he can be?

No, but neither are you.

I had thought to listen to a scholarly debate on points of orthodoxy, between two beings that know vastly more than I about a faith that I stand in awe of. Instead there are beings coming out of the woodwork to bash Ali about things he said months ago, or to offer inane and uninformed comments that somehow become part of YOUR argument.
And another thing I see is that it is one against many. My natural affinity is for the disadvantaged in an unfair fight. How foolish that is, to be sure!
Ali you are not without guilt-- you did say you could use a placeholder, and I have seen you write the name of Jesus-the-man.

467 PDM  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 11:33:35pm

#463 jinnderella,

why is your hubris so important that you devote all this bad energy to splitting hairs?

Splitting hairs?! C'mon. Seriously. I made some points in a couple of very long posts above, and when I cited him for not responding to them he brushed it all off by calling them "non points."
This Ali guy won't stay on a subject long enough to split a hair! Don't give him that much credit.
One could get a more stimulating argument out of Monty Python's Argument Clinic than they could get out of Ali.

Look at his post #465. He's just frothing at the mouth, name calling, and avoiding a question I posed.
I suppose he's just fighting evil in his own special way.

I'll tell you what jinnderella: If I don't address him with a response to that #465, do you think he'll declare victory and finally STFU?

And another thing I see is that it is one against many. My natural affinity is for the disadvantaged in an unfair fight.

Then perhaps one has offended many. If several posters took issue with Ali, then perhaps there was a darn good reason.
We wouldn't feel any sympathy for an underdog Palistinian, so why should we feel any for an Alistinian?
---
You know my posting history here. You know I'm generally a good-spirited poster. And you know I'm not evil. But this guy really thinks he's fighting evil here.

In light of that, I just may be arguing with someone who is certifiably nuts.
So, I hereby quit.

You see that Ali. You win. You have conquered evil.
Give us a big "Allahi Ackbar!"

468 jinnderella  Tue, Jul 13, 2004 11:56:34pm

PDM, you are generally good-spirited, highly intelligent, and fair. That is why I had hoped to learn something here. *sigh*
You are both full of hubris, and intent on ad homming.
Ali, you did not use the placeholder for 'x', as you promised.
I stand by my championship of the disadvantaged.

469 Thom  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 12:31:28am

{At the risk of getting a certain great guy and photoshop wizard called some more ugly names, rock on.}

#424 RickZ

Didn't know I was stepping into such a spider hole with Comical Ali. I took your advice and did read the whole Gibson thread. After his # 313 post to me here, "do get over it," I was incensed at being talked down to for what I thought was a tame "I also object . . ."

LOL. I incurred his wrath when I asked him to translate a phrase he had been using frequently: "yoschka mamzer apikoros"¹. He told me to go learn Hebrew (a most unhelpful suggestion) and later that he refused to "hop to" at the "orders" of a goy.

Ali has ... issues.

¹ I came to find out that the phrase means "Jesus the apostate bastard" so I can understand his reluctance to translate. Ben F, as usual, actually provided an illuminating analysis of that phrase. Unfortunately, Ali uses his knowledge to bludgeon, condescend, and insult - not as a resource for discussion and education. Fortunately there are many more knowledgeable and helpful people around here for which I am most appreciative, especially since I know little about Judaism and must ask what seem like some pretty stupid questions. :)

470 RickZ  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 5:25:15am

# 469 Thom:

Yeah, I saw his bludgeon wielded on that thread toward you, and anybody else, who dared to call his "BS'd" for the bullshit it was. It's just the obnoxious stench frothing from his "learned" mouth that gets to me.

# 426 PDM:

With lines like this,

Your non points require no response.

it really does show his backward Yemeni/Arab mind. "I'll say whatever I want, however ludicrous. You're wrong, so shut up already!" A poster boy for the inane.

But this thread still continues to amuse. Like heartburn.

471 RickZ  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 5:57:54am

# 443 zulubaby:

I do believe the best sperm in his father's ejaculate ran down his mother's leg, leaving only the cankerous ones to hit the cervix.

Such an erudite comment he dropped in # 440. I was offended. But I guess he majored in offending at Islamic U.

---

And Comical Ali, from this CHRISTIAN, with all the sincerity that my Catholic educated heart can muster, FUCK OFF already. You give humanity a bad name.

472 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 6:24:02am

BS"D

#471

with all the sincerity that my catholic educated heart can muster, FUCK OFF already.


Once again your eloquence shows you to be a truly worthy inheritor of such luminaries as Torquemada, and Pope Pius XII.
In case you missed it, I do not come & go at your whim (or whinge) if you really don't like what I type, don't read it. Or, for a a novel concept, attempt expressing yourself in a manner other than guttersnipe.


#464

Okay, seriously, do you have any Islamic blood in your lineage? Just curious.


Just curious in the same manner as the authors of the Nurnberg laws? Your assertion of "Islamic blood" is such a bold nazi-esque canard, I will admit to be taken slightly aback. Ah well nothing like adopting the tactics of those with whom you seem to feel a philosophical kinship.
Blood purity is not a concept in Halacha, so I can only wonder where you would have developed this concept, hmm could it have been from your mentor Wilhelm Stuckart?

#468 Jinnderella


Ali, you did not use the placeholder for 'x', as you promised.

I saw no person offer an idea for any other placeholder in place of x, so I continued to use it. From this point onward when refering to followers of that man, I will use the Talmudically approved term "minnim" .

473 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:08:48am

Ali Al-Beheshti: Gratitude!
IMHO. you have demonstrated yourself their better, indeed! :-)

474 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:14:30am

#471 RickZ! I think that was extraordinarily rude, and unworthy of you. Crude ad homs are the last resort of a vanquished debater!!!

475 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:35:25am

Ali

From this point onward when refering to followers of that man, I will use the Talmudically approved term "minnim" .

Well, that's odd. Earlier you had no problem typing out the name Jesus, and now you find it necessary to resort to "that man". At any rate, I'm not sure that your subsitution of minnim will stack up against the accepted definition of the word.

If your intent isn't to denigrate Christians and their religion, why not settle for the Hebrew word for Christians - Notzrim?

476 RickZ  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:40:14am

Comical Ali, you've been exposed (I wish that could really read arrested) for the fraudulent, pompous, hypocritical, irreligious, vulgar POS that you are; I claim my vulgarity as my own. I will read any damn thing I choose to on this board. And if I choose to comment on your disgustingly hateful post "Are you a jewess or a cow?", then I will. Tough sh*t.

As I have typed, and had processed by the very tiny gray matter between your ears, you are a waste of oxygen on this planet.

# 474 jinderella:

Not sure what thread your reading there. But he has inflamed many more than me. Just telling him like it is. Maybe he'll learn. But I doubt it.

477 Geepers  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:45:26am

jinnderella,

I think that was extraordinarily rude, and unworthy of you. Crude ad homs are the last resort of a vanquished debater!!!

So what's your opinion of Ali's:

So are you a Jewess or a cow?

Honest question, reasoned response or crude ad hom?

478 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:58:55am

BS"D

#477

So what's your opinion of Ali's: Are you a Jewess or a cow?

Interesting that you would zero in on that, but completely ignore this from #436

Is Ali a Jew or a Muslim?

Just another heaping dose of the hyena pack hypocrisy. Considering the choice between Jew v Muslim, I think that Jewess v Cow was far more polite. At least a cow gives milk, meat & is a blessing to humanity.

#476

Your poor attempts at reparte are laughable. As amusing as your illiterate pulings are, trying to have any real debate with you is really no more than getting into a battle of wits with the unarmed . Easy victory, but meaningless.

479 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:04:22am

Geepers, that also was rude, but not to the same extent of raw crudity.
However, the comment that inspired that riposte was certainly worthy of criticism. I will admit that I am prejudiced against these random 'drive bys' by the 'comment police' who insert vapid and uniformed comments into threads in which they have no stake in or understanding of !

480 Geepers  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:12:24am

Ali says:

At least a cow gives milk, meat & is a blessing to humanity.

At least? Your contempt for women is rather (to play off your own words) muslim-esque.

And your contempt for Jews who are not as "holy" as you is rather... pathetic.

481 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:14:57am

RickZ: Grrr! If anyone was seriously interested in Ali's genetics, wouldn't it have been preferrable to research back a bit? It certainly was discussed in depth upthread. Unless, of course, it was intended as a disingenuos slur.

Is Ali a Jew or a Muslim?


You choose-- is that comment malicious or stupid? I hardly think it is sincere!

482 RickZ  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:17:00am

Ali, you ignorant slut!

You've called my mother a cow by inference, you rat b*stard. How is a question asking you if you are a "Jew or a Muslim" even in the same league? Except maybe to your thin-skinned camel hide. Go open your orifices to Arafat, he's lonely for idiot boy toys.

---

Geepers, thank Christ I know this bigoted jerk only speaks for himself, contary to his self-elevated status. But a bigot he is, and a bigot he shall remain to the end of his days.

483 RickZ  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:19:57am

jinderella:

My beef started with Comical Ali waaay back at # 313. I am not a "drive by."

484 Thom  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:20:35am

"Is Ali a Jew or a Muslim?" was a perfectly reasonable question, and one that you might pause to reflect on, Ali.

"Are you a Jewess or a cow?" was just a gratuitous insult. Which you're pretty good at delivering.

485 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:25:00am

Geepers--

Your contempt for women is rather (to play off your own words) muslim-esque.


Why then does Ail show no contempt to me, then? My avocation of XXhood is surely as strong as any being's here! Perhaps his contempt is not for women, but for dishonest posters! Perhaps you could answer my question to RickZ-- was the 'Is Ali a Jew or a Muslim' comment sincere in your opinion??

486 Thom  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:26:15am

#479 jinnderella

I will admit that I am prejudiced against these random 'drive bys' by the 'comment police' who insert vapid and uniformed comments into threads in which they have no stake in or understanding of !

LOL. How long have you been hereabouts?

Had it been a few months longer, you might realize that these are not "random drive bys" by the "comment police".

487 Thom  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:28:24am

#485 jinnderella

Why then does Ail show no contempt to me, then?

Question his authority, dare to notice a whiff of hypocrisy, stop kissing his frickin' ass for five minutes, and I suspect his tune will change.

488 RickZ  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:29:21am

jinderella, if you'e not a jewess, you're a cow. If that doesn't come across as viturperative contempt for women, what does?

489 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:30:52am

BS"D

#480 geepers

Quote: "Ali says:

At least a cow gives milk, meat & is a blessing to humanity.

At least? Your contempt for women is rather (to play off your own words) muslim-esque."

Are you really that thick, or are you just not being honest in your reading? Notice the original post # 478herewith quoted:

"Considering the choice between Jew v Muslim, I think that Jewess v Cow was far more polite. At least a cow gives milk, meat & is a blessing to humanity."

Even a fool could read this and understand that the comparison was between a muslim and a cow... so exactly where do you get any form of misogyny from that?

490 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:34:42am

I would still like an answer to my post #475.

491 Geepers  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:37:42am

Ali says:

I think that Jewess v Cow was far more polite.

Ah, you were being polite.

Tell me Ali, where do the women pray in your temple? I'm figuring 'back of the bus' where they belong, right?

492 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:41:47am

RickZ: I was not referring to your comments as drive bys- you obviously have read the thread.

Thom: No, since Judaism and orthodoxy are the main topic, that comment reflected either a severe lack of reading comprehension or exteme disinterest in the topic of the argument. Some beings here speak only to enjoy the sound of their own voice!
1. That comment was addressed to a specific poster, not to all XXbeings.
2. Thom, you came late and no context problem. That is because you can read!
3. Sadly there are many beings that comment on threads here without reading them. I may be new but I am not blind.

493 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:46:51am

ben-ami: thank-you for you valid suggestion-- I am inetersted in the meanings of both terms, and which would be preferable?

494 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:52:12am

BS"D

#480 & 491 geepers

Why don't you respond to the posting below, which clearly shows your error? Just to easy to join the hyena pack, rather than read and reason?

Quote: "Ali says:

At least a cow gives milk, meat & is a blessing to humanity.
Geepers says:
"At least? Your contempt for women is rather (to play off your own words) muslim-esque."

Ali says:
"Are you really that thick, or are you just not being honest in your reading? Notice the original post # 478herewith quoted:

"Considering the choice between Jew v Muslim, I think that Jewess v Cow was far more polite. At least a cow gives milk, meat & is a blessing to humanity."

Even a fool could read this and understand that the comparison was between a * muslim and a cow* ... so exactly where do you get any form of misogyny from that?"

Geepers then posts:

where do the women pray in your temple? I'm figuring 'back of the bus' where they belong, right?


Actually like any Dathi & yes Orthodox Jew I do not daven in a "temple" especially since both beiti HaMikdashot have been destroyed. The women in our Synagogue daven on the right side of the mechitza (looking down from the bima). No back of bus, no roof of bus. Just your desperate attempt to cast an aspersion of misogyny.

495 PDM  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:09:31am

#471 RickZ,

Yemeni/Arab mind

You know, I think that's all we're really seeing here.

#472 Ali Al-Beheshti,

Islamic blood

Possibly a poor choice of words. But you knew I was really getting to the point that in some way I suspect you are a descendant of Ishmael. But whether by blood or socialization, the resemblance is noteworthy.

Sorry if you don't like the observation that you are hot-headed and have acted like a wild-ass here. I think it is a valid one.
I don't think that you are an evil person, but I do feel that your conduct is a symptom of your upbringing in an Arab environment.

#479 jinnderella,

Zulubaby's question was a fair one considering the:

In the name of Allah, Merciful, Beneficent

on Ali's web page.
Rather than answering questions about it, he quietly changed it. So if you want to see what he had there previously, it is now only available in google's cache .

#489 Ali Al-Beheshti,

Even a fool could read this and understand that the comparison was between a muslim and a cow...

Are you serious? Your comment was disgusting. A lot of people felt that way, so consider this:
Zulubaby asked if you might be one kind of human being. You asked in response if she might be an animal.
Either we're dumb and can't understand the perfect expressions of Ali. Or, you expressed something that you didn't mean to and should offer an apology for any misunderstanding.
Since the second option requires an apology out of you, I suspect that you'll conclude that we're dumb.
Fess up, you were just dishing out an insult and your intention to do so is pretty obvious. You were angry because she implied that you may be a Muslim and you in turn decided to imply that she may be a cow. Ali, you really have no shame for the way you treat others. It's really sad to see. And I mean that sincerely. It really is sad to see.

496 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:10:08am

Ali, my question was not a rhetorical one; I really would like an answer.

And at the risk of being pedantic

beiti HaMikdashot

?

Oughtn't that be "Batei HaMikdash"?

497 RickZ  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:15:53am

jinderella, no offense, but when you say if someone's not read the whole thread, that makes their comments not allowed? Who's being the "comment police"?

The comment about the cow was aimed at zulubaby in his # 440 post; I gather he deduced that zulubaby was a woman from the nic. I was offended by the comment to her, as well as the direction the comment takes by implication. If you think a comment like that would pass muster on a current thread, without a comment from anyone who has read the whole thread or not, then you would be wrong.

As to what he called PDM (I still can't believe Comical Ali said it; I was truly aghast when I read it) in the Gibson thread (see # 424 above), well, let's put it this way, if I'd said it, my banning would have been called for, and quite justifiably. IMO, he crossed a line there, just as he did with the cow comment, no matter how much he sugarcoats it. I responded, in a vulgar way, as it seems to be the only way to get through his thick skull. It may not have been my shining moment, but I still stand by my theory of his conception by reading his posts and deductive reasoning.

498 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:18:56am
You choose-- is that comment malicious or stupid? I hardly think it is sincere!

In her usual passive-aggressive manner, she'll address something without actually addressing me. I have my very own Deranged Owl!

499 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:19:05am

PDM

Rather than answering questions about it, he quietly changed it.

I can still see it on the webpage itself. It's odd, given that he's said that Allah is the "moon god" in another post, and now refuses to type out the words Jesus or Christian.

500 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:27:21am

BS"D

#496

Oughtn't that be "Batei HaMikdash"?

Er, well since I was refering to both of the Holy Temples that have been destroyed, no.

#495

Your continued dishonesty, actual lies and bigotry are as much fun to watch devolve as a donnybrook amongst the mentally challenged.

501 RickZ  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:32:50am
Your continued dishonesty, actual lies and bigotry

Three words come to mind: Pot . . . kettle . . . black.

502 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:33:31am

500

Er, well since I was refering to both of the Holy Temples that have been destroyed, no.

I know you were referring to both Temples. That's why I wrote Batei HaMikdash. Like the plural of sefer Torah is sifrei Torah. I have never seen "Batei HaMikdashot" anywhere, but I have seen "Batei HaMikdash." And googling under the former came up with zero responses, but the former brought up lots of web pages.

Now, what about "Notzrim"?

503 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:41:18am

Zulubaby: I was honouring the terms of the Scroll by Treaty, merely. I have negative infintity interest in you, except where you seek to interfere.
I maintain your post was dishonest, because of this comment on this very thread. Which is it? Were you lying when you implied you read PDM's posts or when you implied you did not know Ali was a Jew?

504 norar  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:41:33am

#496 ben-ami

This is not the first time where he uses Hebrew wrongly, or out of context, or so it does not make sense.

#499 ben-ami

&PDM

Still guessing?

jinderella, the only "being" I see here attempting to police comments is you. And you choice of the oppressed would be hilarious, if you did not choose side with the "being" whos most time consuming attempts on this site are invested at flaring discord between Christians and Jews, while failing to hide his contepmpt for both.

Now I wonder, is there anybody here who has something to add to the subject of this thread, that is "We Must Be Allowed to Criticise Islam" in case you forgot.

505 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:50:37am

Yeah, and what about notzrim vs. minnim? Would one be preferrable over the other? Are the meanings context dependent in any fashion? Are there "hidden" meanings?

506 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:52:30am
I was honouring the terms of the Scroll by Treaty

Sure you were. If you treat me with courtesy, I will do the same, but don't think you're going to get away with comments like this:

You choose-- is that comment malicious or stupid? I hardly think it is sincere!

and then expect me not to call you on it. I don't address you at all, I don't make reference to you at all -- that is "honouring the terms of the scroll by", not your sly and passive-aggressive digs at me.

You're a troublemaker, keep out of my hair please. Your obsession with me gives me the creeps.

507 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 10:02:34am

norar, if you will read, I was attempting to discuss pre-Islamic history with Ali Al-Beheshti, and also how it relates to changing Islamic society. The SNR degraded radically here with ad hom attacks based on the Passion thread. Can the Passion just be over?
I myself am passionate about languages, and I was hoping for some learned side discourse on Hebrew.
I have no interest in policing comments--I was against the Lizard Gulag, oops, I meant Lizard Lounge!

508 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 10:06:59am

Jinnderella

Yeah, and what about notzrim vs. minnim? Would one be preferrable over the other? Are the meanings context dependent in any fashion? Are there "hidden" meanings?

AFAIK, "notzer (pl notzrim)" is simply Hebrew for Christian. I believe it's used in both the classic texts and in modern Hebrew. I hope that an Israeli reader will correct me if I'm wrong.

"Minnim" means more or less "sectary", "heretic." And it's usually reserved for Jewish heretics.

It seems to me that an stubborn refusal to employ notzrim over minnim implies a negative value judgment on Christianity. Which is certainly his right, but its puzzling why he would insist on this right at the risk of stirring up trouble between allies in the WoT. "Gadol hashalom," remember?

509 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 10:09:59am

#506 zulubaby: I respectfully ask what you meant by comment 408 in this thread-- did you actually read PDM's posts and not understand Ali is a Jew?

510 norar  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 10:16:51am

#507 jinnderella

How old are you? Should I bring to your attention that if Ali was interested in discussing anything pre-Islamic nobody would be able to derail him into trading insult, methink.

Read the thread and his introduction to this thread and what follows, and you will see that he purposfully tried to change the subject of the thread away from its original subject. His open end provocation was not different from the Passion thread, so its not surprising other posters made a connection, it is surprising you did not.

Well, I might be wrong and he is avoiding the discussion about pre-Islamic history for some different reason, because he is not familiar with the subject as much as you, for example. :)

511 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 10:23:55am
did you actually read PDM's posts and not understand Ali is a Jew?

So Ali says. Ali's website has a reference to Allah which is very suspicious for a Jew, no? He knows about Judaism, for sure, but there's something strange about him and his responses therefore the question is entirely reasonable. Not that he's responded ...

512 RickZ  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 10:32:34am

ben-ami,

Which is certainly his right, but its puzzling why he would insist on this right at the risk of stirring up trouble between allies in the WoT. "Gadol hashalom," remember?

Exactly right. I was 11 when the '67 war occurred. I've been rooting on Israel ever since. It may be from my Catholic upbringing with nuns who brooked no anti-semitism. It may be that the Jewish people I've met throughout my life (except for HWSNB), have been wonderful. My first seder was at 13, with two brothers from my boy scout troop (the troop was sponsored by a Presbyterian Church; go figure!).

But I do not brook religous pomposity in Christians like Jerry Fawell, Pat Robertson, Moromons, fundamentalists, et.al., just I cannot brook the pomposity our poster has exhibited. I also find him to be so anti-Christain as to be bigoted. For that I find no excuse. If I exhibitied the same bigotry toward his faith, I would be righteously roasted.

Pardon me for asking, but since Latin is the only old tongue I know, what is the meaning of the tail of the comment above?

513 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 10:35:54am

RickZ - see post 415.

514 norar  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 10:36:00am

#509 jinnderella

He claims to be a Jew, he also claims that his faith prevents him from writing Christ in Christianity/Christian. This is nonsense, besides, if he was THAT orthodox, he would rather avoid writing "ham" in "mo ham head". Some Orthodox Jew might say "pig", but would avoid even mouthing "pork" and pork products.

Ali is a cheet playing on general ignorance hoping it is bigger than his and trying to insult, or play victim, when exposed, though he obviously have not fool everybody. So if I was you I would take with a pinch of salt whatever he has to say about pre-historic Islam as well, if he ever shows cortesy to your enquiry. :)

515 Geepers  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 10:42:26am

jinnderella,

If you haven't noticed Ali (is that a typically Jewish name?) isn't much interested in discussing pre-Islamic history, but is rather quick to post insults against anyone who dares to question his "authority" on matter religious.

Maybe you could entreat Ali to make use of the "Scroll by Treaty"?

And just out of curiosity why do you feel that someone who got the living crap insulted out of them a couple of months ago should now put that aside and be respectful?

516 PDM  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 10:43:25am

#500 Ali Al-Beheshti,

Your continued dishonesty, actual lies and bigotry are as much fun to watch devolve as a donnybrook amongst the mentally challenged.

You know Ali, you're really a coward. You avoid any point brought up that offends your pride and which may indicate that you have done something that is simply wrong.
Instead you lash out with insults (and not really great ones at that).

You're so obvious.

Don't care to comment on the change on your web site?
Where did

In the name of Allah, Merciful, Beneficent

go?
You are still greeting people in the name of "Allah" aren't you? You know, the "Merciful, Beneficent"... "Allah"?

(Yes, I know the questions are a waste of time because you are only obligated to come back with another unrelated insult. Like a good Muslim lashing out at the Infidel?)

#509 jinnderella,

#506 zulubaby: I respectfully ask what you meant by comment 408 in this thread-- did you actually read PDM's posts and not understand Ali is a Jew?

It might be possible that I was mislead into believing that Ali is a Jew. He could be a liar.
He displays the behavior of an Islamic nut case. He refuses to address the matter of his praise for "Allah" on his web site.
In fact, I am starting to doubt that he is really a Jew. Perhaps I just don't want to admit that this lunatic is one of my people.

But the more I think about the way this coward hides behind his BS"D while dishing out countless insults leads me to believe that he is a fraud.

Seriously, isn't there something that strikes you as "un-kosher" about that?

517 PDM  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 10:52:12am

#515 Geepers,

Maybe you could entreat Ali to make use of the "Scroll by Treaty"?

You know that would be impossible. We see clearly that Ali has a kind of obligation (which he considers "challenging evil") to lash back.
He's really a great example of what we are fighting in the world of Islamists because he's showing us how the Arab mind works. Jew or no, this Ali has the character of an Ishmaeli.
If you get him into a tight enough corner, he may be willing to offer a "Scroll by Hudna" while he thinks up some more stupid insults.

518 WriterMom  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 10:57:47am

What does al-Behesti mean in Arabic? Maybe he's playing us all for fools?

519 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 11:04:13am

518 WriterMom

What does al-Behesti mean in Arabic? Maybe he's playing us all for fools?

I think that al-Beheshti is an Iranian surname, and I think that it Ali al-Beheshti is Ali's real name.

520 Geepers  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 11:05:56am

PDM (#517),

he may be willing to offer a "Scroll by Hudna" while he thinks up some more stupid insults.

Here I have all this respect for you, and then you go and make me snorf beer through my nose. ;-Þ

521 WriterMom  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 11:10:31am

#519 Ben Ami

I think you're right. All other al-Beheshti's on Google, anyway, are Iranians. And, I've never-ever seen a Jew refer to Allah the Merciful seriously. Except Allah Pundit, but that doesn't count.

522 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 11:16:11am

WriterMom

But I also think he's Jewish, or has some sort of Jewish alter ego, or something, because I also think that he sometimes uses the name Yehuda E. (for Eliyahu) Ben-Shamai. Don't ask me how...it's just a hunch. ;-)

523 PDM  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 11:21:02am

#518 WriterMom,

What does al-Behesti mean in Arabic? Maybe he's playing us all for fools?

I don't know what the name means, but I do think that we are dealing with someone who might just be playing Jew.
The way he posts insult after insult under that BS"D reminds me of a suicide bomber that dresses up in a black hat and coat to look "Ultra-Orthodox" as he boards a bus.

Searches on google for:
Dathi orthodox Jew
Dathi ultra-orthodox

produce nothing.

Search on google for:
Dathi orthodox

produces hits, but not much about Jews if anything.

Same for "Dathi Jews" and "Dathi Yemen"

We may have a real fraud here.

524 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 11:26:45am

523

"Dathi" seems to be the way that Ali spells "Dati", which is what the Orthodox are called in Israel. And in his defense, I read that the Yemanite Jews have their own, unique pronunciation of Hebrew, so this may be just a reflection of that.

525 RickZ  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 11:30:20am

# 523 PDM:

We may have a real fraud here.

A thought: Which "religion" bad mouths Christianity and Judaism?

As for jinderella, maybe he was so solicitious to her because he was trying to a third wife or somethign?

526 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 11:36:16am

On the other hand, Ali claimed that "dati" meant "Ultra-Orthodox." That's not the case. AFAIK (and if any Israelis out there care to correct me, please feel free to do so) dati=common-or-garden-variety Orthodox, while charedi="Ultra-Orthodox".

527 PDM  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 11:43:41am

#524 ben-ami,

You may be correct. I don't know.

Any idea what this page is?
[Link: www.womendex.com...]
I found a link to his (now modified) web site there.

I'm not sure what that page is, but more and more seems odd about this Ali character.

Anyway, I am no longer comfortable trusting his claims of being a Jew. And Jew or no, he's proven to be a big waste of energy.

528 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 12:17:50pm

527 PDM

I don't know. My own sense is that up to a point, he's what he says he is: the child of a Yeminite Jewish mother and an Iranian father. But I also suspect that the more pious mannerisms and claims are something of a put-on. The story isn't internally consistent - it's all rather ad hoc.

529 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 12:35:35pm

BS"D

#527
Quote: "Any idea what this page is?
[Link: www.womendex...]
I found a link to his (now modified) web site there. I'm not sure what that page is, but more and more seems odd about this Ali character.

Anyway, I am no longer comfortable trusting his claims of being a Jew. And Jew or no, he's proven to be a big waste of energy. "

Your foolishness is yet again on full display. If you would have made even a cursory inspection of that page you would see it is the front end of a web spider attempting to gather all names listed anywhere on the web. So, yes indeed my name is there, so is James A. Garfield, Golda Mierson, Golda Mier, and literally hundreds of thousands of others.

Baruch Hashem, what you feel about my yiddishkeit & whether or not I am a Jew is of no moment. Hashem Ha Kodesh is the only judge of that . You do realise that many of the remarks directed against me qualify the writer as a near din rodef? Not that you would care, it doesn't fit in with the silly wanna-be bullying hyena pack tactics that your affinity group so seems to favour.

#526 ben
Quote: ", Ali claimed that "dati" meant "Ultra-Orthodox." That's not the case. AFAIK (and if any Israelis out there care to correct me, please feel free to do so) dati=common-or-garden-variety Orthodox, while charedi="Ultra-Orthodox".

Your thesis is flawed . The overwhelming majority of Temani use the term Dathi to refer to the fully religiously observant. Chariedi is a term more common to the Ashkenazi & greatly less to the Sephardi. As far as I can tell this term came to usage to help differentiate the "modox" (modern orthodox) with their Moshe Feinstein approved heterim, and the much more stringently observant.

If you really think that I am such an amazing waste of time, what does it show of yourself that you are so eager to continue trying to engage me?

BTW, in many non-secular, non-modox, non-accomodationist Jewish groups, the preferred term is minnim. After all they are indeed an offshoot of our religious teachings.

530 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 12:48:46pm

*sigh*
This is what Ed Moran said earlier.

Ali is Jewish, and has a particularly good insite on Islam because he grew up in an Arab country (Yemen, IIRC) and his family actually worked hand printing copies of the Koran.


I understand that I am very junior, but i do rely on Ed's information like gospel, most especially about the weather!:-)

Norar, due to the unsupportable SNR, Ali and I have have transferred our discussion to email. That is unfortunate, because I know ploome at least would be interested in the stories of the naqa'at, female tribal combat poets of the Jahilyyah.

zulubaby, I accept your explanation, if you can accept why I was confused about your question.

531 piglet  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 1:12:01pm

Scarfs and veils Could be volunteer but often are not:

Suttee could also be voluntery but was outlawed because it often was not.

sut·tee also sa·ti ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-t, st)
n.
The now illegal act or practice of a Hindu widow's cremating herself on her husband's funeral pyre in order to fulfill her true role as wife.
pl. sut·tees, also sa·tis A widow who commits such an act.
532 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 2:20:01pm

BS"D

#518
Quote: "

What does al-Behesti mean in Arabic? Maybe he's playing us all for fools?

Why would I find it necessary to "play someone" for what they are acting like already?

Behesht = (farsi) heaven, paradise, less often, the heavens (sky
suffix -i =of. from or of a local

al = imported 'arabic vocative particle definite article, non-gender specific

Al-Beheshti = The (tribe) of/from Heaven (or skyward)

This is a very common surname of "'arab iranians" (generally from the southwester province of Khuzestan) who are of ancient Jewish origin. Ancestry traces in many cases to migratory Yemeni Jews from the region and environs of Sana'a

533 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 2:50:42pm

Ali

Your thesis is flawed . The overwhelming majority of Temani use the term Dathi to refer to the fully religiously observant. Chariedi is a term more common to the Ashkenazi & greatly less to the Sephardi.

Interesting. Could you point me to a webpage that uses the word "dathi" in that fasion?

As far as I can tell this term came to usage to help differentiate the "modox" (modern orthodox) with their Moshe Feinstein approved heterim, and the much more stringently observant.

I find your tendency to denigrate not only Christians but your fellow Jews surprising.

If you really think that I am such an amazing waste of time, what does it show of yourself that you are so eager to continue trying to engage me?

Look back over my postings and find me one where I said that you were waste of time, amazing or otherwise. I don't think that challenging anyone who presents himself as a "much more stringently observant" Jew but who manages to stir up so much enmity among people who, theoretically, have a common enemy in jihadism is a waste of time at all.

BTW, in many non-secular, non-modox, non-accomodationist Jewish groups, the preferred term is minnim. After all they are indeed an offshoot of our religious teachings.

Again, is it really ecessary to put other Jews down in order to build yourself up? And if you wouldn't mind, could you please direct me to an example of that usage on the web?

534 PDM  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 2:54:50pm

#529 Ali Al-Beheshti,

You do realise that many of the remarks directed against me qualify the writer as a near din rodef? Not that you would care

Oh, but this "house-Jew" cares so much. Please, please explain more.

535 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 3:00:11pm

PDM 534

#529 Ali Al-Beheshti,

You do realise that many of the remarks directed against me qualify the writer as a near din rodef? Not that you would care

Oh, but this "house-Jew" cares so much. Please, please explain more.

I think he means that you'd be subject to din rodef.

536 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 3:04:10pm

Ali

Oops, almost missed this

Your thesis is flawed . The overwhelming majority of Temani use the term Dathi to refer to the fully religiously observant. Chariedi is a term more common to the Ashkenazi & greatly less to the Sephardi.

"The fully religiously observant"? So plain old Orthodox Jews are somehow not observant?

537 PDM  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 3:27:04pm

#535 ben-ami,

I know what din rodef is, but I really want to hear his reasoning behind "near din rodef" applied to the comments on a blog.
This could be good.

(I tried to email you but was not able to. Please send one my way.)

538 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 3:36:11pm

537 PDM

LOL Just trying to be helpful.

I can't get the site safemail system to work either. This is my e-mail address.

539 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 4:15:30pm

BS"D

#533

Look back over my postings and find me one where I said that you were waste of time, amazing or otherwise


The quote you are refering to was meant to be attached to the paragraph above the text dealing with your post. If you look you will see that pdm had made the waste of energy. time remark. A misplacement of the cursor resulted in that specified text being located in the portion of the post addressed to you.

As for a near din rodef, many of the statements here have come very close to implying that by my existence and refusal to acquiesce to the packs nattering, I qualify as a pursuer. "waste of oxygen, foa die, ishamelite, wild ass of a man, etc. etc." the astounding hypocrisy inherent in such a group of creatures to pretend to stand in any form of judgement of my position on observance is beyond laughable.

Quote from you: " BTW, in many non-secular, non-modox, non-accomodationist Jewish groups, the preferred term is minnim. After all they are indeed an offshoot of our religious teachings.

Again, is it really ecessary to put other Jews down in order to build yourself up? "

How is a simple statement of fact putting any one down? Is secular a put down? Modox? You are grasping for offense when there is none to be had.

Quote from you : ""The fully religiously observant"? So plain old Orthodox Jews are somehow not observant?

Well, if one lives their life by more heterim than mitzvoth, there is an extremely obvious difference in level of observance. Why do you pretend such ignorance?

You ask for multiple web pages for religious dialogue on terms and texts, it might be a shock to you, but long before the ubiquity of the internet, religious texts were both read and discussed in synagogue.

540 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 4:15:40pm

#525 RickZ: LOL! Who in their right mind would want to marry a djinn? :-)

541 piglet  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 4:32:56pm

I would like to point out that "house...(ethnicity)" is
a very ugly phrase, and perhaps even uglier when as in the case of Harry "day-O" Belifonte talking stink about
Colin Powell, one tries to clean up the phrase. It's the n-word folks.

542 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 4:40:17pm

BS"D

ben

A place where you may learn more about my people & our religious customs and observance (if you truly are interested in learning, not just in machloketh)
Yehud teman Your browser will need to support Ivrit fonts. I particularly look forward to your response to the article on Zohar as avoda zarah.

543 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 4:58:37pm

#541 Piglet: That is true, but I saw a LOT of high talk and fierce temper on the the threads about the Passion. It did not seem to bring out the best in anyone-- indeed it seemed as divisive as abortion to me.
I was not here, and only read doggedly through the old threads, but it seems to me that if all warranted apologies were executed, nothing else would get done here for a long, long time.
I think it would be great to go forward, but then that may not be my place to say.
BTW, I meant to say how much I liked your Beowulf analogy the other day-- it was splendid! :-)

544 PDM  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 5:22:09pm

#541 piglet,

I would like to point out that "house...(ethnicity)" is
a very ugly phrase, and perhaps even uglier when as in the case of Harry "day-O" Belifonte talking stink about
Colin Powell, one tries to clean up the phrase. It's the n-word folks.

But don't forget that Ali Al-Beheshti can talk down to us from his lofty place and any phrase he wishes to use to insult is "kosher." After all, HaShem has given Ali his blessing to treat human beings like crap. He earned it with that BS"D above all of his posts and strict religious observance.

Even after receiving a straight forward and honest question from ben-ami, Ali replies with a condescending tone.

You ask for multiple web pages for religious dialogue on terms and texts, it might be a shock to you, but long before the ubiquity of the internet, religious texts were both read and discussed in synagogue.

Yes, I'm sure ben-ami was unaware that there were religious texts before the Internet.

#543 jinnderella,

but it seems to me that if all warranted apologies were executed, nothing else would get done here for a long, long time.

That's bullshit. Ali can acknowledge what he's done wrong and make an effort not to talk down to people and everyone would move on. But your "teacher" that you have taken such a liking to has way too much pride for that.
As long as he keeps a higher level of observance than others, he can call his fellow Jews "house-Jew," and he can talk down to non-Jews simply for being non-Jews.

The bottom line is that this man makes no effort to show that he gives a damn about anyone. He is far too busy slinging insults and loving himself.
He is proud and defensive to the extreme... a combination of traits that prevents him from getting along with others here.

545 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 5:36:24pm

Ali,

How is a simple statement of fact putting any one down? Is secular a put down? Modox? You are grasping for offense when there is none to be had.

My basic problem was with the lumpig together of "non-secular, non-modox, non-accomodationist Jewish groups", as if they naturally went together. I also thought that your English is too good for you not to recognize the sneering tone of your writing. If I was mistaken, I apologize.

Well, if one lives their life by more heterim than mitzvoth, there is an extremely obvious difference in level of observance. Why do you pretend such ignorance?

Well, this is a new one. I was struggling under the delusion that the difference between a chumra and a heter was in the level of stringency. You mean to tell me that you actually end up observing more mitzvot? How many are you up to? ;-)

The above paragraph was an example of pretending ignorance, Ali. From where I sit, Orthodox Jews - including the (

shudder) Modern Orthodox - observe just as many mitzvot as your crowd do. Having a different level of observance than you is not the same thing as being non-observant, and getting you to recognize that shouldn't be like pulling teeth.

You ask for multiple web pages for religious dialogue on terms and texts, it might be a shock to you, but long before the ubiquity of the internet, religious texts were both read and discussed in synagogue.

Yes, but you can find the most remarkable things on the web. If out of the mind-boggling number of websites and text pages out there you can't find any references, that's okay. Saying "I can't" or "I don't know" isn't a moral failing, you know.

None of this addresses the fact that I have never seen someone who claims to be a religious Jew - much less machmir - being as nasty to other people as you have been on this board, and every post pioiusly headed by a BS"D. So you're machmir in mitzvot bein adam l'Makom - how about being machmir in mitzvot bein adam l'chavero? Instead of being so intent on pressing your claims of being superior to us in religious knowledge, how about showing how superior you are to us in religious action - how about showing how kind and generous a religious Jew can be?

546 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 5:40:13pm

Ali

A place where you may learn more about my people & our religious customs and observance (if you truly are interested in learning, not just in machloketh)
Yehud teman Your browser will need to support Ivrit fonts. I particularly look forward to your response to the article on Zohar as avoda zarah.

Thank you. I would genuinely like to learn more about the Temani comminities. I'll let you know how I find it.

547 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 5:42:03pm

BS"D

#544

Your hypocrisy is reaching a new high-water mark. You pretend umbrage because I posted "You ask for multiple web pages for religious dialogue on terms and texts, it might be a shock to you, but long before the ubiquity of the internet, religious texts were both read and discussed in synagogue."

Yet you and your fellow pack mates sling vile insults with abandon. You seem unable to cope with the internal conflict caused by the existence of an unaplogetic, assertive, non-acomodationist Dathi Jew. You might eventually realise that I will never back down from any challenge, nor will I issue any unwarranted apology.

Your sad & rather insular view of the "ultra-orthodox", seems to prevent you from refraining from projecting your own feelings & motives onto others.

Oddly enough, were I to ever be in the position to intervene in a *real* conflict in which *any* Jew, regardless of level of observance was under threat, I would (if necessary) give my life to save a life in Yisroel (a neshama yehudi, not a specific geographic location). Simply because as a Dathi Temani I accept fully the teaching "if one saves a life in Yisroel, it is as if he had saved the world entire." Do I expect you to understand this? No, more's the pity.

Understand that for every unjust attack there will be a response. Not at the slime level of some, but a shtark response nonetheless.

548 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 5:46:20pm

ben-ami (#545)

None of this addresses the fact that I have never seen someone who claims to be a religious Jew - much less machmir - being as nasty to other people as you have been on this board, and every post pioiusly headed by a BS"D.

I couldn't agree more. I'm actually shocked into silence (for once in my life :-) by the sheer nastiness of Ali's posts. I can't get over this.

549 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 5:46:53pm

BS"D

I would (if necessary) give my life to save a life in Yisroel (a neshama yehudi,



Sometimes more commonly expessed as nefesh Yehudi.

550 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 5:49:54pm

Ali

You seem unable to cope with the internal conflict caused by the existence of an unaplogetic, assertive, non-acomodationist Dathi Jew.

I can only speak for myself but I'll tell you that is simply not true. It is your nastiness and disrespect for others that is unnerving.

551 Iron Fist[deleted]  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 6:07:43pm
552 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 6:11:31pm

BS"D

#548,
Quote: "I couldn't agree more. I'm actually shocked into silence (for once in my life :-) by the sheer nastiness of Ali's posts. I can't get over this."
#550
Quote: "It is your nastiness and disrespect for others that is unnerving."

Have you read any of the other post here? I have come nowhere near the level of vile, vulgar, sleazy vituperation that the "pretend offended" have posted. Would you like just a little refresher?
# 516
an Islamic nut case.
In fact, I am starting to doubt that he is really a Jew. Perhaps I just don't want to admit that this lunatic is one of my people.

But the more I think about the way this coward hides behind his BS"D while dishing out countless insults leads me to believe that he is a fraud.

#495
you are hot-headed and have acted like a wild-ass here.

#482
Ali, you ignorant slut!

You've called my mother a cow by inference, you rat b*stard.
#476
Ali, you've been exposed (I wish that could really read arrested) for the fraudulent, pompous, hypocritical, irreligious, vulgar POS that you are; I claim my vulgarity as my own. I will read any damn thing I choose to on this board. And if I choose to comment on your disgustingly hateful post "Are you a jewess or a cow?", then I will. Tough sh*t.

As I have typed, and had processed by the very tiny gray matter between your ears, you are a waste of oxygen on this planet.

# 471
Comical Ali, from this cHRISTIAN, with all the sincerity that my catholic educated heart can muster, FUCK OFF already. You give humanity a bad name.

#470
t really does show his backward Yemeni/Arab mind. "I'll say whatever I want, however ludicrous

#464
seriously, do you have any Islamic blood in your lineage? Just curious.

#471
I do believe the best sperm in his father's ejaculate ran down his mother's leg, leaving only the cankerous ones to hit the cervix.

If you were to judge fairly, you would have to admit that nothing, absolutely nothing I have posted compares to this selection of drek, especially the postings by mentally defective rickz.

553 lazytart  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 6:16:27pm

My God, is there anything worse than a pompous ass hiding behind the skirt of his "religion"?

554 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 6:18:03pm

Ali, do you understand that you have hurt people's feelings? Do you care? I'm sorry, I'm shocked by your attitude. I don't know what else to say.

555 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 6:18:33pm

BS"D

#551

Just what was needed, less than juvenile playground insults, which are no doubt indicative of you stunted mental processes. Perhaps you should talk to your psychiatrist about that unhealthy obsession with the genitalia of family Equidae.

What a meshuga.

556 PDM  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 6:19:26pm

#547 Ali Al-Beheshti,

I address you by name. Your petty effort of only addressing me by a number is obvious and continues to contribute to the picture of your character. You may not like what I say to you, but you have to admit, I don't stoop to such a petty level.

nor will I issue any unwarranted apology.

Tell all of the posters here how proper it is to address another Jew as "house-Jew" and how that doesn't warrant an apology.

Please, I'd love to hear how you justify using the term "house-Jew."

But here is the true insight of your character:

You might eventually realise that I will never back down from any challenge

So even when your choice of the most disgusting words is challenged, you will not back down. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, only that you don't back down.

AGAIN: It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, only that you don't back down.

Is that correct Ali?

ben-ami posted this very nicely worded inquiry to you:

None of this addresses the fact that I have never seen someone who claims to be a religious Jew - much less machmir - being as nasty to other people as you have been on this board, and every post pioiusly headed by a BS"D. So you're machmir in mitzvot bein adam l'Makom - how about being machmir in mitzvot bein adam l'chavero? Instead of being so intent on pressing your claims of being superior to us in religious knowledge, how about showing how superior you are to us in religious action - how about showing how kind and generous a religious Jew can be?

What are you going to do about it? Ignore it? Insult him?
You certainly can't admit that you are not acting like what you claim to be because that would appear to be "backing down."

So best you just ignore my question about the use of "house-Jew" too because there is no way you can convince anyone but yourself that it is ever a proper way to address someone.

You think not owning up to an error is a show of bravery and strength? Truly Ali, it shows that you cannot face yourself and that you are a coward.

557 lazytart  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 6:23:29pm

He's merely a hater; nothing more, nothing less.

I'm underwhelmed.

558 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 6:35:02pm

BS"D

# 556 pdm

If a Jew is constantly taking an adverserial position against another Jew on behalf of goyim, that is the definition of a house Jew. Have you even bothered to google the phrase? Or was it just easier to pretend high dudgeon?

As for cowardice, you seem to be projecting your own insecurities on to another.

559 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 6:40:43pm

BS"D

Another two days, and this thread just may exceed the lenght (in number of posts) of the passion thread. Pretty amazing that all this can be generated just beccause some folk can't resist the call of the hyena pack.

560 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 6:42:18pm
561 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 6:49:20pm

BS"D

#560

Another great intellect heard from. "Me too, Me too!"
rofl

562 lazytart  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 6:49:49pm

Let me understand this: If a Jewish person takes up for a non Jewish person against another (incredibly snide, unloving) Jew, he is in turn a "house Jew"?

Wow.

I recognize you. I've heard of people like you. Some of them are in the Congressional Black Caucus. Some of them used to burn crosses in their yards and intimidate their friends by referring to them as "N- lover". Some of them lynch their fellow citizens in Gaza.

I knew it sounded familiar. Why would anyone need to google such a thing? We've all seen it and know it for what it is- hatred.

There is nothing righteous about you.

563 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:02:03pm

BS"D

#562

Why would anyone need to google such a thing?


Livng up to your nick? Lazy? Your assertions of judgement are as hollow as your equanimity.

564 Iron Fist[deleted]  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:03:47pm
565 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:06:07pm

yes, well actually I have seen worse-- In a software design meeting at CIA/ORD, where I was again a very junior member of the meeting. Frankly, I was too shocked to speak, anyways. There were some of the greatest talents in the country, guys with docs from MIT and Carnagie, "made men " in machine vision and ATR, undergoing total devolution to Neanderthal status over algorithm design disagreements. It seems the combination of uber IQs, hubris and testasterone is a non-productive mix. I sort of see the same pattern here.
What is the solution??
Umm, I mean what is everyone saying? Does Ali have to apologize to post here? Then does eveyone that made what I consider to be objectional comments have to apologize?
What happened at CIA/ORD, is everyone slammed off to the bars in a huff, and lived to fight another day.

566 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:06:54pm

jinnderella

zulubaby, I accept your explanation, if you can accept why I was confused about your question.

LOL, how big of you. And coming from somebody who *spat* at me, no less! You'll understand why I don't care one way or another about your opinion.

567 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:09:55pm

BS"D

#564

It seems that you have not such a firm grasp on the obvious. Watching a gaggle of self-appointed guardians of "polite conduct" get so "het up" over nothing more than a transient display of pixels is more entertaining than a Lyndon Larouche debate about the Queen of England as the pre-emminent drug pusher of the world.

If you get a laugh out of this as well, "good-on-ya" for assuredly this theatre of the absurd is worth far more than the price of admission.

Each snarkety post shows the entire blog-viewing world exactly the level of bigotry, hatefulness & petty vulgarian sniping that we are all capable of producing. What a mishigas.

568 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:17:39pm

Oddly enough, I just did google "house jew", and one of the first sites that came up was one where someone's tagline read

"Jew" should also be a color. I want to paint my house Jew, with Mongol trim.
569 lazytart  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:24:53pm

hubris

n : overbearing pride or presumption

570 Geepers  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:26:30pm

Ali looks to be the all time king of ignoring questions he doesn't want to answer.

571 PDM  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:26:33pm

#552 Ali Al-Beheshti,

# 471
Comical Ali, from this cHRISTIAN, with all the sincerity that my catholic educated heart can muster, FUCK OFF already. You give humanity a bad name.

LOL!
I mean, really...
LOL!
Lowercase "c" in a quote doesn't cut it dude. But you are funny in a bizarre kind of way.

... at least until I address this:

#558 Ali Al-Beheshti,

If a Jew is constantly taking an adverserial position against another Jew on behalf of goyim, that is the definition of a house Jew. Have you even bothered to google the phrase?

Actually, the very first time you EVER responded to me was when you called me "house-Jew." So don't give me your lying garbage about "constantly." And if I see a Jew acting poorly toward a Jew or non-Jew, I'm going to say something about it if I please.
As for a google on "house-Jew," I did find it used here:

An SS officer in the Drohobycz ghetto made Schulz his house-Jew, and used him to draw murals in his house. That officer quarreled with another officer over cards. By chance, the second officer met Schulz on the street and shot him to injure Schulz's owner. Rumor says that afterwards the murderer announced to Schulz's owner: "I killed your Jew." "Fine," the officer answered, "Soon I'll kill your Jew."

Ali, you still want to stick by calling me "house-Jew" for supporting true murderers of Jews?
Or, did you mean it in the way Adam Shapiro has been called "house-Jew"?
Either way, your usage of the term makes me sick.
It is one of the most horrible and disgusting things you can call a supporter of Jews and Israel, and no matter how you sugarcoat it you cannot hide the truth.

572 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:36:48pm

567 Ali

Watching a gaggle of self-appointed guardians of "polite conduct" get so "het up" over nothing more than a transient display of pixels is more entertaining than a Lyndon Larouche debate about the Queen of England as the pre-emminent drug pusher of the world.

Well, words are just transient vibrations in the air - does that mean that we can toss out all the laws about shmirat lashon? *

Iron Fists' "donkey post" was gratuitously offensive. That said, why aren't I trying to get Iron Fist to change his conduct? Because as far as I know, Iron Fist isn't a Jew. He didn't begin his post by invoking Heavenly assistance, and he doesn't AFAIK aspire to a stringent observance of the commandments. You do. I can scroll past mere obscenity, but what amounts to a chillul HaShem** gets my attention.

Of course, I may have to adopt a "scroll past" policy with you, too, Ali - and that would be a shame, because in spite of the big ruckus that this thread's become (along with past threads) I think you have some good stuff to share (like that very interesting website).


*That's "guarding our tongues against evil speech," for all you Methodists out there. :-)
**a desecration of G-d's Name; causing G-d or Torah to be brought into disrepute by one's actions.

573 lazytart  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:37:56pm

arrogance

Ar"ro*gance, n. [F., fr. L. arrogantia, fr. arrogans. See Arrogant.] The act or habit of arrogating, or making undue claims in an overbearing manner; that species of pride which consists in exorbitant claims of rank, dignity, estimation, or power, or which exalts the worth or importance of the person to an undue degree; proud contempt of others; lordliness; haughtiness; self-assumption; presumption.

574 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:40:07pm

BS"D

#571pdm

You really don't seem to grasp the blatantly plain. Your phony "offense" at the term used is of no importance to me. You have consistently been far more vulgar, bigoted, hateful & in all way the absolute apex of the image our enemies purvey, in your dealings with me on this board.

If you were not offended by me in some way I would fear that I had fallen to the trap of accomodationism.

Thankfully, your continued attempts at clever insults deliver indisputable proof that I have struck the right course, and by doing such have aggravated those whom value accomodation above all else.

575 lazytart  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:41:40pm

pretentiousness

n 1: lack of elegance as a consequence of pomposity [syn: ostentation, ostentatiousness, pomposity, pompousness, splashiness] 2: the quality of being pretentious (creating a false appearance of great importance or worth) [syn: pretension] [ant: unpretentiousness]

576 PDM  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:47:00pm

Ali, you still want to stick by calling me "house-Jew" for supporting true murderers of Jews?

should read:

Ali, you still want to stick by calling me "house-Jew," as if I was supporting true murderers of Jews?

577 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:48:23pm

BS"D

#572 ben

I should think that before you would start discussing the laws of communication, you would look at your own contributions to lashon hara gadol here. But of course since in the view of the hyena pack any imputation of error can only be pointed in my direction, I doubt that there is enough aggragate honesty in this entire thread to get such a evaluation accomplished.

If one were to attempt to communicate with me on a level that did not drag in accomodationism, insistance on moral equivalency & general vituperation, that same one might be quite surprised to find just how civil I am under normal conditions.

However, enter challenge or harassment mode, and I will never release, relent or recuse.

578 lazytart  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:52:00pm

in·so·lent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ns-lnt)
adj.
Presumptuous and insulting in manner or speech; arrogant.
Audaciously rude or disrespectful; impertinent.

579 Ali Al-Beheshti  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 7:52:06pm

BS"D

#576 pdf

That clarification is most welcome. No matter what I may feel about your (in my view) unreasoning philogoyism, I would have never thought you a supporter of open murderers of Yehudim.

Make of that what you will.

580 lazytart  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:09:34pm

I just googled your nick.

I think someone has stolen it.

The style, content, and tone of your current postings is entirely different from anything else I have ever seen you write here.

I don't know what to make of it.

Goodnight.

581 ben-ami  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 8:29:24pm

All right, Ali, have it your own way.

I'm sorry that we won't be able to discuss chayas.com's section on the Zohar. I haven't read all of it, but much of what I've read so far parallels my own thinking. (Or rather my thinking has parallelled it, since I'm not a scholar, much less an expert of kaballah).

BTW, one of the first things that I noticed about the site is that the owners and contributors (whose piety I doubt you would have reason to challenge) had little problem spelling out the word Christianity and even managed the name of Jesus with the use of a hyphen.

Lech l'shalom, be well, and so on,

Ben-ami

582 PDM  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:11:45pm

#579 Ali Al-Beheshti,

That clarification is most welcome. No matter what I may feel about your (in my view) unreasoning philogoyism, I would have never thought you a supporter of open murderers of Yehudim.

Make of that what you will.

Well, with the option you offer in your last line, I'll choose to make the best of it.
On that note, I'm glad to drop it and I'm going to call it a night.
If it's worth anything to you (I wonder), I hope any future exchanges between us can be more civil (or even Kiddush HaShem) and not what they were in this thread. I'll make the effort, and hope you can manage to do so as well.

583 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:16:25pm

#566 zulubaby: All right, have it your way-- were you LYING or impLYING when you said you read PDM's posts in comment # 408?

584 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:22:12pm
PDM, bravo. Excellent posts.

Yeah jinnderella, there's all sorts of voodoo in there. LOL. You're a joke.

585 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:46:10pm

zb: If you had read PDM's posts, as your comment implies, then you would have known Ali is Jewish, IMHO. They were debating points of Jewish orthodoxy. Unless, of course, your reading comprehension is that poor.

586 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 9:52:19pm

To repeat, I know that Ali said that he was Jewish but his behaviour was unlike any Jew I've ever encountered (and I know a few) and I got suspicious. Also, he has something about Allah on his website and that, I'm sure you'll agree, is bizarre, coming from a Jew.

Talk about poor reading comprehension.

587 jinnderella  Wed, Jul 14, 2004 10:23:11pm

zb: And how long long did it take you to come up with that "plausible explanation"? 12:23 to 9:06.
Whatever.

588 jinnderella  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 4:01:33am

#572 Ben-ami:

Iron Fists' "donkey post" was gratuitously offensive. That said, why aren't I trying to get Iron Fist to change his conduct? Because as far as I know, Iron Fist isn't a Jew.


This is where zb solicits IronFist to make that comment, and obviously approves of what he says--comment 327 & 328
Given that zb IS a Jew, will you now try to ameliorate her behavoir? Feh. She didn't even bother to hide it in email.
I guess I will have to agree with Ali about the hyeana pack. I'm disgusted. Quite the class act--not!

589 ben-ami  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 4:34:45am

Jinnderrella, your link didn't work, and the posts so numbered in this thread aren't germaine to the incident.

I think you ought to have quoted the entire paragraph:

Iron Fists' "donkey post" was gratuitously offensive. That said, why aren't I trying to get Iron Fist to change his conduct? Because as far as I know, Iron Fist isn't a Jew. He didn't begin his post by invoking Heavenly assistance, and he doesn't AFAIK aspire to a stringent observance of the commandments. You do. I can scroll past mere obscenity, but what amounts to a chillul HaShem** gets my attention.

None of the other factors pertain to zulubaby, AFAIK. Maybe I should have written that as far as I knew Iron Fist isn't a practicing Jew, and sure as heck doesn't make an issue of his religious practice on this board.

Would I like all Jews, regardless of religious observance, be civil to other people? Of course. But on what basis could I appeal to a non-practicing Jew (not necessarily zulubaby, because after all I don't know what her religious POV is) to make nice to the other Jews and treat the Christians with respect - genetic superiority? Because we're better than the goyim? Ethnic allegiance?

590 ben-ami  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 4:44:49am

I also hasten to add that since I haven't seen the posts you refer to, Jinnederella, I don't know if I agree with your assessment of them or not.

591 jinnderella  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 4:55:29am

ben-ami: *my bad*working link

genetic superiority?

Now you are shamelessly trying to get on my good side-- you know that is one of my favorite hypotheses. :)

(not necessarily zulubaby, because after all I don't know what her religious POV is)


Surely you jest-- from what I've heard, it is her raison d'etre!

592 jinnderella  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 5:15:27am

ben-ami: My point is, a lot of the dreck in this thread seems to be directed at Ali's attitude. I think it is stunningly hypocritical:

Ali, do you understand that you have hurt people's feelings? Do you care? I'm sorry, I'm shocked by your attitude.


While at the same time involving a bystander with no stake in this argument to make the sort of comment that Iron Fist made?

To repeat, I know that Ali said that he was Jewish but his behaviour was unlike any Jew I've ever encountered


My simple question is this, emminent scholars-- is zb's behavoir "jewish"-- or would someone be entitled to question her ethnicity, as she questioned Ali's?

593 zulubaby  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 5:21:21am

jinnderella, you're still obsessing about me I see, and telling a new batch of lies. You make me sick.

Charles, please ban this troll already. This is getting ridiculous.

594 lazytart  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 5:24:31am

Oy vey.

595 Geepers  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 5:25:55am

Jinnderella,

This is where zb solicits IronFist to make that comment

How on god's green earth did you determine that zulubaby was 'soliciting' Iron Fist to make a comment? her entire post was:

Is cow the insult of the day?

Are you psychic?

And I believe you completely ignored the question I put to you in #515. Care to take a stab at it?

596 zulubaby  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 5:29:24am

Geepers, thanks. She is insane, has cooked up all sorts of conspiracies and lies about me, and I've really had enough of it. This has been going on for weeks already. I should have known better than to respond to her.

597 jinnderella  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 5:29:28am

zb: Links don't lie. You are condemned with your own words.
I am perfectly willing to honor the scrollby treaty-- you interfered here with something I was trying to learn. Do you wish this to be classed as a border violation? I may have something yet in my armory...

598 jinnderella  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 5:49:30am

Geepers, she clearly approves of IronFists "donkey comment" if you read the link.

If you haven't noticed Ali (is that a typically Jewish name?) isn't much interested in discussing pre-Islamic history, but is rather quick to post insults against anyone who dares to question his "authority" on matter religious.


As I pointed out to norar, Ali moved our discussion to email to avoid the hyeana pack, and most likely to protect me from the bashing being dished out to him.
True, he is arrogant and rather haughty, but he has his reasons. But I am not without the sin of arrogance myself.

And just out of curiosity why do you feel that someone who got the living crap insulted out of them a couple of months ago should now put that aside and be respectful?

Because of this-- An old friend tried to give me the thrashing of my life, just weeks ago, and then proceeded to ad hom me for at least half a thread-- if I can get over it, why can't anyone?

599 zulubaby  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 5:50:33am

More lies ...

600 lazytart  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 5:59:23am

Jinderella,

Why don't you guys KEEP it in email and spare us all your petty jealousy regarding Zulubaby.

It really isn't pretty.

601 jinnderella  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 6:05:32am

Really? Links please.
Geepers, I will provide you with an email sample if you so desire. I 'm sure you have seen something of the threads where my 'old friend' returned, but I can provide those also.
Zb:your options are clear-- leave me alone when I'm trying to learn something. You have no interest here.
You have tried to get Charles to ban me before-- is this his House or yours?
I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees, personally.

602 RickZ  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 6:06:03am

Comical Ali:

That you repost, in # 522, my learned and truthful comments to you, well, let's just say I feel the love, and leave it at that. Thanks for cutting and pasting those lines, though, and putting them under your name. Seems so appropriate somehow. Dissemination of the ideas of others is very important, no matter how painfully true, or close to home they hit. Oh, BTW, I still stand by them, too. Wouldn't want you to be somehow misled.

Admit your a horse's ass and a bigot (the very least of your, uh, . . . issues, [thanks for that Thom!]), and I'll admit that I've responded in a manner that is . . . , well, . . . but I'll wait and see first. Let's see how big (not over-blown) you can be.

And let me tell you something, my mother is neither a "jewess" nor a "cow." Since those were the only two options you had, that's the most important apology you have to make. Won't hold my breath waiting, though. But stranger things have happened, like the Berlin Wall falling, pigs flying, etc.

Oh yeah, I did type it CHRISTIAN, so quit playing keyboard games; you slur, by your little games, Christianity. I have never slurred the Jewish faith, as you do that all on your little lonesome quite nicely. I've slurred you, but you are not THE representative of the Jewish faith, nor have you been elected to be so, except by your own 1 to 0 vote. Should we ask the UN to do a recount?

# 555:

Just what was needed, less than juvenile playground insults, which are no doubt indicative of you stunted mental processes. Perhaps you should talk to your psychiatrist about that unhealthy obsession with the genitalia of family Equidae.

Iron Fist (# 551), I'm so glad that you've been allowed into the Ali al-Beheshti Mutual Admiratiion Society, too! It may be small in number, but we're growing. I believe PDM was a founding member.

603 jinnderella  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 6:10:07am

lazytart: I have negative infinity interest in zb, unless she interferes with something I am trying to learn. LOL, why would I be jealous of her-- she's about as deep as a tv tray! :-)

604 jinnderella  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 6:17:29am

#602 RickZ: I think we established that Ali was not referring to ALL women with his specific comment, but only to a specific individual, who had, incidentally, just insulted him.

#551 Ironfist: I thought your comment was crude and unworthy of you.

605 Geepers  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 6:19:52am

Jinnderella,

Geepers, she clearly approves of IronFists "donkey comment" if you read the link.

"clearly approves"?

Well I did read the comments on the other thread, her entire response was "oy".

You clearly are imagining things the way you want them to be.

And there seems to be a strange inconsistency in your accepting Ali's crap because:

he has his reasons.

while chiding the rest of us. I guess Ali's "reasons" are valid while ours are not?

And do you not know what a kapo was? Do you not understand how truly vile it is to call a Jew that? That comment alone ended any respect I ever had for Ali.

And I don't care how knowledgeable he is on some arcane matters of religious orthodoxy. Do you think he's the only person with an opinion on the matter? Many of his assertions have been refuted here, he doesn't make any allowances, just says I'm more pious than you, that makes me right. Is that really a good teacher? And in what ways has he demonstrated his infallibility to you? Why should you trust what he has to say?

And if you check I was the first person to welcome him to LGF. He's since burned every bridge of goodwill he ever had here.

606 RickZ  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 6:29:06am

# 603 jinderella:

The sentence was "so are you a jewess or a cow?" From my college logic days, and I'm not trying to twist this, mind you, but he was asking zb (a woman) this question. There were only two options within the question: Either the first noun, or the second noun. That was the sentnce, those wre the options. Context, shmontext. The sentence stands on its own, and speaks (volumes) for itself, no matter how much spinning and twisting goes on around it.

607 zulubaby  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 6:43:22am

More threats, more lies ... I only wish I was as powerful as she thinks I am.

608 jinnderella  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 6:50:40am

Geepers: OK fine. Cacun a' son gout. You are right, I can't know exactly what "kapo" means to you. But I did feel pretty damn bad! :)

RickZ: RickZiculous! No way "you" can be extended to apply to all XX beings. Quite a stretch! :)

La, I'm off to school cross-country today, the water complex is open at Spring Gulch! Who knows, perhaps I'll be banned when I get back, and you won't have to put up with me anymore?

"Good-bye now, good-bye! Write down all I said!
Tell Tom, Dick and Harry I laffed off my head!
What's bred in the bone cannot fail me to fly,
So I'm off for some jumping, good-bye now, good-bye!"
609 RickZ  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 7:02:15am

# 608:

No way "you" can be extended to apply to all XX beings. Quite a stretch! :)

Here I thought women were a subset of all humans. Silly me. Guess I'll go join the 'slims now. They believe that.

610 Ali Al-Beheshti  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 12:08:09pm

BS"D

#605 geeper

Many of his assertions have been refuted here, he doesn't make any allowances, just says I'm more pious than you, that makes me right.

Sources please... I have never, ever, anywhere in lifemade the asserton that "I'm more pious than you",
That is a direct lie.

If you dislike my midoth have the simple decency to say so and either move on or offer in-depth critique, but don't lie.

Next, could you (with sources) show where "many of his (my) assertions have been refuted" ? Perhaps I am misunderstanding refuted to mean disproved, rather than merely disagreed with. That their has been disagreement I pose no denial.. however if it is in the sense that any of my assertions have been catagorically disproven, I take exception and claim it is a false statement.

611 evariste  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 11:32:35pm

twisterella/jinni/Sha'nfara/the Jashiriyya/the (crappiest) poetess (ever)/jinnderella/whatever keeps making oblique hints about some arrow in her meager quiver that she's holding in reserve. She thinks it's some
devastating proof that zulubaby has been rounding up people to harass her over email, or that there's a conspiracy against her, or whatever.
What she has is an email from me to zulubaby about her. It's really got a lot more power as a threat in her mind, or something she thinks is a big secret, than it does as a reality. It has even less power in reality if you actually know the whole story behind it. In fact I've been given
reliable information by a first party that she'd tried to use it to make her case (unsuccessfully). I'll go ahead and break that shitty arrow of hers completely, right now-since she seems to think she can keep making hay out of it; I'll tell you all what, exactly, the facts and events are behind this, her pathetic attempt to shut down any conversation with or about zulubaby that she's losing badly by posting or forwarding what she thinks is such powerful evidence of conspiracy.

As I've mentioned before, I'd been noting her ongoing degeneration on LGF since I stopped being a regular. A large portion of said degeneration is her ongoing paranoid delusions about zulubaby's control over several of the regulars leading to them "ganging up" on her. (When it's really her own personal flaws, social ineptitude and bad behavior that inevitably led to people disliking her). Well, the part of the story that you don't completely know is that I corresponded with twiterella on a sporadic basis when she first started posting on LGF until the day I left. This appears to be the basis of her slur on my good taste that I was her "old friend"-I assure you that I am much pickier and have far better taste in friends than that. Perhaps she's so starved for genuine human contact or affection that she mistook my politely friendy emails for friendship, but I took a brief glance at the emails that passed between us- thin gruel-and nothing in it supports her allegation that I was ever a friend or an "old friend", thankfully. Anyway, I hadn't really ever been much more than a sporadic correspondent and I often deliberately sat on emails of hers for several days or longer to avoid giving her the wrong idea about my interest in corresponding with her, and I was pleased when it worked and her emails dropped off rapidly.

Like many of you, I employ a creep-filter system with correspondents of dubious trustworthiness, to keep dodgy people at arm's length. If I grow to trust someone, I'll let them know that they should email me at my real email address instead. Let it be noted that, in contradiction to her delusions of "old friend"ship, I never let twisterella/jinnderella/whatever out of the creep dungeon in several months of correspondence. Where the creep filter fits in is that zulubaby *is* one of the people I trust and really *do* consider an old friend. So, I'd long since trusted her with my real email address. So having watched twisterella/jinnderella/Debbie/whatever go apeshit on zulubaby (for daring to ask her to stop making negative references to her on a constant basis), I was quite shocked when twisterella/whatever had the gall to email me out of the blue asking for my help with something a month after I'd stopped posting and she'd had her meltdown and rabidly attacked my friend. As if everything was still supposed to be hunky dory. Yeah, right!

[Continued in the next post as I'm approaching the character limit.]

612 evariste  Thu, Jul 15, 2004 11:40:54pm

I naturally wanted to tear her a new one but thought I'd get a second opinion before going off half cocked. Who better to ask than zulubaby? She is, after all, the focal point of twisty's twisted rage and obsession. So I emailed her and showed her two different draft replies I'd been working on. The first was short and to the point, and asked her not to ever email me again. The second was to really let her have a fucking piece of my mind. zulubaby sagely pointed out that giving a paranoid obsessive stalker type of personality more material to obsess over was unwise, and that I should stick to the shorter "don't ever email me again" one. She was right, of course, and I took her advice.
Where I messed up is that my email program has a redirect function. I hit the redirect button on the email I'd sent zulubaby, changed the "From:" line to my creep filter account, changed the "To:" line to twisterella's email, and cut out the draft that didn't make it and my question for zulubaby, leaving only the text intended for the kook to see. What I didn't know was that my email client kept the original from and to information in the headers of the email-I was used to the web interface of my email provider, whose redirect function is clean and
doesn't retain this information.

You're not dumb so I assume you've figured out that this is the very email she keeps threatening to post, and that I know she has emailed to other people, as if it's incontrovertible evidence of zulubaby's utter evil and her own unblemished goodness. I suppose in her cartoonishly overheated mind, it is. And I hope it's obvious that it's really not at all the smoking gun she's
melodramatically trying to pretend it is. It's funny that my error reinforced her sense of persecution and her conviction that zulubaby was secretly pulling all the strings behind the scenes and trying to get every LGFer to pick on her. It's not only wrong but insulting; as though no LGFer has their own mind to make a decision with. We are all zulubaby's puppets. Ha ha ha. One Jewess pulls all the strings, behind the scenes.
What's also funny is that moronella sent me several deranged emails after I asked her not ever to email me again. And later on I got an email from someone else letting me know that she'd been forwarding my email around, although she didn't have the courtesy to tell me that. She's all class, this spitting twit. I just wanted to declaw this inept attempt she's been making at getting mileage out of nothing, by showing what a big fat goose egg it really is. She's just a low quality intellectual feeb with lots of hat and not much cattle, and more messed up than a soup sandwich.

jinnderella: maybe if everyone thinks you're an asshole, it's because *you're an asshole*, not because they're all in a conspiracy to get you. Why don't you go spit on some books at Borders? Or better yet, print this out and spit on it.

613 Powderfinger  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 12:26:18am

Good Morning, Evariste! :-)

614 evariste  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 1:35:59am

Good morning to you too, Powderfinger :-) Sorry, I've been on the other thread.

615 Thom  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 1:42:42am

jinnderella's a psycho. Does anyone take her ravings seriously? Especially after her paranoid delusions about female posters with nicks beginning with "L"?

Whatever.

</my best Valley Girl voice>

616 RickZ  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 3:14:07am

evariste & Thom:

evariste, not that I would know this story about dhimerella, but I appreciate the warning. That said, it might be a good idea to hook Comical Ali and dhimerella up. Think of the free fireworks!

617 jinnderella  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 4:23:56am

Why, al qittus sa'il, how good it is that you grace us with your presence-- has it been requested by someone?
1) I have negative infinity interest in zb. She interrupted a conversation I was having here with uninformed and inane remarks.
2) Tell me, is it more anti-semetic to call an orthodox jew a muslim, or to call an interfering moron a cow?
3) You can read-- did she or did she not read PDM's comments above 408?
4) If you are going to have to come here all the time to thrash me, maybe you should just stay to insure that I am more respectful and humble, and that I know my place. Maybe you also should ask Charles to bann me, like she does?
5)

You're not dumb so I assume you've figured out that this is the very email she keeps threatening to post

Actually, I was referring to the automous comment generator I was thinking about writing. I don't share other people's email without permission, unless it is an absolute neccessity.


6)
She is, after all, the focal point of twisty's twisted rage and obsession.

Silly cat, I repeat, I haven't addressed her in weeks, until she popped up here in full interference mode. You've obviously been lurking, so you know that.
7)

And later on I got an email from someone else letting me know that she'd been forwarding my email around,

I sent that email to one other person and you know who that was, the person that was mentioned, as was proper. Don't blame me for your bad manners.
8) Which is it? Are you here all the time lurking or did she call you back again to give me another thrashing? I think zb is not a "cow", but a "cowARD". If she incapable of defending herself, if she is honest and wrongly accused?
() The last thrashing you tried to give me didn't work out so well, silly cat. And now all you have are ad homs. Did you get your Iraqi dictionary yet? And yes, you did tell me to buy that book on the Classical Odes-- I just assumed you had read it before reccommending it.

618 jinnderella  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 4:36:42am

evariste, *yawn*, wasn't all this covered before? I have negative interest in zb, as long as she doesn't interfere with me. I left all the other threads strictly to her, I was only interested in this one, and she just had to be here as well, causing interference. And then she got caught in a lie. If she wasn't lying why couldn't she just defend herself? You know if you tell the truth here you cannot be harmed.
You obviosly cannot leave this place-- why don't you just stay openly and insure that my behavoir iimproves? Or should I assume that you are always lurking and modulate my behavoir in fear of your just and dreadful retribution?

619 jinnderella  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 4:45:41am

#615 Thom: But it was a troll-- It has not posted a single time at Winds since Joe caught the blowback and made IP bans when I was baiting it here!
Some remmnants of it may persist here, at LGF, but that doesn't really matter with registration. It's harmless now. And it is much more pleasant at Winds without it.
I know you're not interested in out-blogs, but I felt sort of responsible in that it followed me here.

620 jinnderella  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 4:56:17am

One more thing, silly cat, I'm not "the poetess". I agree that was *bad* poetry. But I like that you noticed the Jashiriyya!
If you would like to have another contest, I'm pretty good with 'Bid Hurayrah Farewell', but I would be glad to let you pick the Ode, since you lost the last time. :)

621 zulubaby  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 4:59:19am
I have negative infinity interest in zb.

Let's see. On this thread alone, how many posts have you devoted to making up lies about me? You're fooling nobody.

622 jinnderella  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 5:17:08am

zb, back it up. Either you lied when you said you'd read PDM's posts above 408 or you lied when you said you didn't know he was a Jew. Your choice.
I reiterate, I have not addressed you for weeks-- you had no business on this thread except to get in my face. You had no interest in the subject, and couldn't be bothered to read enough of the thread to join at an intelligent and informed level.

623 jinnderella  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 5:33:15am

#617 me: Sorry, autonomous comment generator-- I did mention that to you once, didn't I, evariste?

624 Baldy  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 6:07:42am

WOW. I wonder sometimes how these threads get so long. Now I know.

625 lazytart  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 6:32:40am

Jinderella,

Why does every thread end up revolving around YOU?

Please, for the love of God, get over yourself.

626 jinnderella  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 6:49:24am

lazytart, get a clue. I thought this thread was about Criticizing Islam.
BTW, unless you were posting those defs for your own edification, you have gravely mistaken the IQ gradient here. I would guess everyone but you knows all those meanings.

627 jinnderella  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 6:53:17am

Baldy, everyone always wants the last word. Even those who have no business speaking.

628 jinnderella  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 7:08:55am
I naturally wanted to tear her a new one but thought I'd get a second opinion before going off half cocked. Who better to ask than zulubaby? She is, after all, the focal point of twisty's twisted rage and obsession. So I emailed her and showed her two different draft replies I'd been working on. The first was short and to the point, and asked her not to ever email me again. The second was to really let her have a fucking piece of my mind. zulubaby sagely pointed out that giving a paranoid obsessive stalker type of personality more material to obsess over was unwise, and that I should stick to the shorter "don't ever email me again" one. She was right, of course, and I took her advice.


Evariste, I don't even have that email any more. I deleted it after sending a copy to the other party involved. I don't understand why you think anyone here would be interested in it. It is none of their business.

I'll say this one more time. I have negative infinity interest in zb. She attacked MY FRIEND with an anti-semitic comment, and then tried to lie about it. After that, she went off and complained to you and god knows who else that I'm picking on her again. Why do you have to arbitrate a disagreement like that? If she's telling the truth why can't she just say so? The only time you come back here is to thrash me, so why don't you just stick around and make sure it doesn't happen again?

629 lazytart  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 7:26:38am

Jinderella, you have no right to tell people here when to speak or when not to do so. I think most people here are just sick of your narcissistic need to cultivate dissension in order to draw attention to yourself.

Unfortunately, by responding to you at all, your need for the drama is assuaged. I would say I will try not to make the mistake again, but I chafe when told to shut up. Particularly by individuals who hijack threads in order to gain some type of self-gratification and attack everyone who tries to point that fact out.

You do know that you are making a complete ass out of yourself, don't you?

630 jinnderella  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 7:39:20am

lazytart, I fail to see where this is any of your affair.
Again, I was having a discussion on topic, and other beings showed up with ad homs and old grudges against MY FRIEND. zb made a remark that certainly appears to be anti-semitic, and that derailed the thread, not me.
Rather than than defend her position, she went off looking for sympathy. Is evariste on topic? He never has the courage to debate me in person, after al qittus.
I do not wish for attention. I would prefer to be left alone so I can learn something.
Why are you here, anyways? Are you interested in pre-Islamic history as it relates to critcism of modern Islam?

631 PDM  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 8:02:57am

#617, #622 jinnderella,

3) You can read-- did she or did she not read PDM's comments above 408?
zb, back it up. Either you lied when you said you'd read PDM's posts above 408 or you lied when you said you didn't know he was a Jew. Your choice

Zulubaby certainly did read my comments, and her question about Ali was explained much earlier. Still you find a reason to keep going on about it.
What makes it especially pathetic is that Ali offered me an opportunity to find a reason to make some peace and I seized it. Yet you still continue to make my differences with Ali a tool for continuing your vendetta against zulubaby. I don't appreciate it.
And this time I'm standing up for a Jew against a non-Jew (Ali might appreciate that), but religion alone isn't the basis for it. You have been in attack mode with hidden digs for quite a while, and you are simply wrong. Quit picking at old wounds (especially those of others) to launch your attacks. The most explosive part of the thread has past and you're trying to ignite another explosion. Over what? Is it the fighting that you thrive on (as you indicated in post #410)?

I want you guys to get it over with in a glorious blaze of scintillating argument.

Speaking for myself, and possibly for others, I'm tired of it. Nobody needs the headaches, and there are far more important news matters to comment on.

632 zulubaby  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 8:30:28am
I have negative infinity interest in zb.

Yet days later she's still spewing her conspiracy theories. LOL. She's desperate for attention, poor thing.

633 lazytart  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 8:41:29am

Ali is "her friend" now; all of us are thereby prevented from commenting on his outrageous, hateful statements. I see. We are, furthermore, prevented from defending ZB or otherwise commenting here as we see fit.

I finally understand; it's third grade again, and we must all divide up sides.

634 jinnderella  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 8:53:07am

PDM: I accepted zb's explanation here--

zulubaby, I accept your explanation, if you can accept why I was confused about your question.


She rejected my comment.
And proceeded to involve others, among them evariste.
I found her "explanation" both late and lame, but I was willing to accept it, for peace.

I admit, I did carry the carry the teasing about al qittus too far, but I had no idea evariste was still here reading those comments. He said he left.

You acted correctly, with honor. And I actually saw good progress being made. Thank you for that. We had almost made it back to the original topic of the thread.

I did not continue this, I was done at #608. Evariste has extended this into some historical issues that I addressed. What business is this of anyones'? And what does any of this have to do with topic of the thread?

I was perfectly happy with the scrollbye treaty, but if I am attacked with ad homs, I'll defend myself. I repeat, I have negative interest in zb, except in her interference. She is welcome to leave me and whoever I am speaking with alone. I do not interrupt her. I have no interest in what she says.

And I think it wrong not to defend yourself, but to instead seek to involve others to defnd you. Whatever Geepers says, you must admit that was her intent.

635 RickZ  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 8:53:32am

# 633 lazytart:

Ali is "her friend" now; all of us are thereby prevented from commenting on his outrageous, hateful statements.

Naw. Think I'll stick to the basest insults for that despicable excuse of a human being.

636 jinnderella  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 12:03:15pm

So, I can stick my head up now? Look-- I'm not banned! Full corporeal presence!!
This was the Criticize Islam thread. Then it was the 'bash-Ali-for-things-he-said-in-the-Passion-thread '. It almost got to be the 'fascinating-discussion-of-pre-Islamic-history-thr ead'. Then it almost got to be the 'equally-fascinating-discussion-of-jewish-orthodox y thread'.
Then it became the 'jinderella-is-mean-to-zb-again-thread'. OK, I'll admit to losing my temper-- we were so close to getting to talk about interesting things when she made the 'are you a Jew or a Muslim' comment. But it's true, I got mean, especially when she rejected my peace overture.
Then the finale, the 'evariste-comes-back-AGAIN-to-beat-the-crap-out-of -jinnderella-thread'.

Evariste, my hands are empty. I deleted the email that concerns you so much a long time ago. I decided against the autonomous comment generator, just now, too much work and too mean. I'm sorry I teased you so much about al-qittus sa'il-- how was I to know you were still here? And, BTW, you did ambush me with intent.

I still maintain that it is very wrong to involve others in a grudge war. Every one should tend their own garden (candide!), and fight their own battles.

Truce up! I'm reimplementing the scroll-by treaty on my part. You all can do what you want.

637 Ali Al-Beheshti  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 3:43:25pm

BS"D

#635

Think I'll stick to the basest insults for that despicable excuse of a human being.

Quelle Surprise In that you have yet to impute any kinship betwixt the the the twain of us, I fear that you have yet to come close to "the basest of insults". 6 of 10 for effort. Better effort next time.

#631 pdm

Ali offered me an opportunity to find a reason to make some peace and I seized it


In the main, if not being under a constant barrage, I will do (within the limits of equitable respect, for both myself, & others ) that wihich promotes, if not actual peace, at least mutual indifference.
I recognise that you (and a small host of others) are disproportionately (in my view) offended by my midoth. Such is the way of life for all of us at one time or another, unless one is not of order vertabrate, & simply acquiesces to any criticism.
Time to prepare for the arrival of Her Majesty, Laila Tov to all of goodwill, to others lech lana'a.

638 PDM  Fri, Jul 16, 2004 5:46:29pm

#637 Ali Al-Beheshti,

I recognise that you (and a small host of others) are disproportionately (in my view) offended by my midoth.

I (and others) could also admire some of them too, given the chance. We may even have some that you could admire if you look carefully. Fair?
---
Shabbat Shalom and good weekend all.


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