Cloth-covered pigskin seats.

I still don't think 15-20 nutjobs could succeed on a decently booked flight. That said, this wouldn't even be an issue if we'd give pilots sidearms. For Christ's sake, most of these guys have an air force background anyway, so it's not exactly like they'd be all terrified by having a weapon.

Blame the anti-gun lobby for this one, too.

...just happened to read the whole thing myself, and yes, it IS disturbing.

No explosion, no pork shrapnel to deny you your 72 skanky babaganoush-crotched virgins

PC screening will be the end of us.

Here's a novel idea, why let a dozen arabs on a flight in the first place?

I saw this eariler today and it creeped me out.

Glad it is getting the exposure it deserves.

PC BS is going to get a lot of people killed, I hope Sec. Menetta can live with himself.

Not on any flight my team mates and I are on.

But what if passengers are faced with a highly organized team of 15-20 hijackers, with unconventional and undetectable weapons—conditioned by a lifetime of indoctrination to commit mind-wrenchingly savage acts of violence?

It will be their "lifetime of indoctrination" vs our savage blind fury.

"...a group of about 15 Middle Eastern men (they turned out to be Syrians) who were almost certainly (judging from her description) conducting a dry run for a repeat of September 11..."

Surely these were just some good followers of the "Religion of Peace". Maybe next time she should be keeping an eye out for those whining, seething Buddists!

Or worse, those militant Amish.

Aaron -

Why bother covering it with cloth? It might be rather comfortable, actually.

And now that I think about it, Hooters Air might be one of the safer places to fly.

I'm also reconsidering my earlier reluctance to fly one one of those nudist charter flights.

Airlines don't want to get sued; air marshals want to wait until an incident starts; passengers were frozen in terror sitting in their seats.

I'm not the heroic type, but did anyone else reading that have the urge to jump into the lavoratory line, get up in their faces, and ask them hey, how's it going? Where ya from? Mind if I cut in, I ate some bad food.

Maybe it's different if you're actually there.

I fly a good bit and everyone knows if alla's little minions take over a flight lots of people are going to die. People would bum rush them or intentionally crash the plane.

I personally would rather die standing up. Every one I fly with thinks the same way.

I usually respond to these things with fear and anxiety but for some reason I'm just furious right now. What is more important? PC or our lives?

#14 PH:

Hi - hope I didn't offend last weekend.

Was this supposed to be some sort of cultural exchange? If so, maybe we could visit them, on their terrritory, loaded with ordinance.

[bigoted word]s tell the truth, the whole taqiyya and nothing but taqiyya.

Charles, I appreciate your posting this article - I read it earlier today and was shocked. People need to read this, and understand that it could happen again.

I'm so glad you posted this, Charles. It IS indeed a must read. I was totally shaken and taken aback after reading it. (considering I'm getting on a airplane next week)

Coincidently, just yesterday I clicked on the LGF left side bar "Tilly's story" and read her personal account of her 9/11 experience for the first time. It is simply amazing to me that the left can be so disturbingly cavalier about terror. Also mind-boggling is the fact that political-correctness truly does trump common sense security in the United States. It's all so unbelievably pathetic and tragic.

sigh

I know there were plans to make it impossible for anyone to enter the cockpit once the plane was in the air, like on El Al's planes. Does anyone know whether this has been put into action yet?

Another reason to keep the legs and body on the good earth where they belong.
If I had been on that flight I would have been making some noise. That was dangerous in that no one made any kind of reaction to their behaviour. Even with fam on board, this should have been stopped.
I'm not holding my breath until they've killed a bunch of us again....and it will be worse. I just keep getting madder with time.

In my opinion - that flight from Detroit to LA was indeed a dry-run.

#13 Radian

I personally would rather die standing up.

Exactly, the L³ would rather have you on your knees.

You're damn right it's disturbing. All the "in my blind rage I'd kick thier asses myself" bravado aside...14 highly motivated islamofascist "can't wait to die killing the infidel" a-holes -with a freakin' bomb- can cause some serious damage. And probably take down a plane. They've done it before and they'll try it again. Just imagine a gangland type flight at 30,000 feet. Terrifying to say the least.

Having said that...what will it take to make the profiling of 20 - 40 year old middle eastern men SOP? Especially when they're in groups? Geez...I remember thinking to myself back in the '80s before boarding intl flights "Are there any nervous looking middle eastern men getting on this plane?" And this was waaay before 9/11. Now I think about it when I'm flying anywhere.

We have got to get over the PC nonsense and get real. The people who are straight-up dangerous when it comes to air travel are the ones who've proven again and again that hijacking is their "weapon of choice." And those people are middle eastern men aged 20 - 40. These a-holes were carrying Syrian passports. My God...what in the hell will it take for this country to get with the damn program?! Reading this article did nothing more than piss me off. PC bullshit will get us all killed. And then it will be too late. Dammit!

Uggg....
That freaked me out. I'm flying from manchester NH to detroit a month before the election.

Damn right I'm getting in any line of Middle eastern guys I see at the bathroom. And keeping my belt ready to strangle the first guy who acts up.

#1 OMG! YES!!!! LOL!

This was a creepy, disturbing story. Even the Europeans have better standards?

Hugh Hewitt just linked to this story on his blog. His comments:

If this account is true, the plane should have been obliged to land upon the first indiciation of concern among the flight attendants and passengers. Calling the Homeland Security Department: Is this a true account, and if so, are you happy with the actions of the pilot/marshalls etc?

[Link: hughhewitt.com...]

That was one of the more terrifying things I've read recently.

I'm sure that if a group headed for the cockpit yelling Allah Akbar there'd be a bunch of people trying to stop them. But the chances of it being a carbon copy are somewhere between slim and none.

Everyone should be searched before they get on any flight. Anyone standing suspiciously in groups near washrooms should be asked to sit down. Anyone taking a full bag to the back of the plane and coming back with an empty bag should be challenged by one of the sky marshalls while the other sky marshalls watch their suspected collaborators.

Make it dependent on behaviour and not appearance, then you don't have the "profiling" problem.

As much as we admire the passengers of Flight 93, we must not underestimate the enemy’s ability to learn from their mistakes.

Boss, at this point, I think instead we've overestimated our own country learning from its mistakes. We assumed, in the aftermath of 9/11, that our country would come to grips with reality and not go back into sleep mode. Instead, we've watched as the liberals and their jihadi comrades have throw a small army's worth of monkey wrenches into the works of our national security system, from howling anytime someone proposed racial profiling, to labeling anyone who puts 1 & 1 together and realizes Islam isn't peaceful a "racist". At this point, I don't think even another 9/11 event would do much to free America from its PC, multiculti brainwashing.

Nately: "You are a shameless opportunist! Don't you know that it's better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees?!?"

Old Pimp: "You have it backwards - it is better to LIVE on your FEET than to DIE on your KNEES."

-Catch-22

Detroit has a high concentration of ME's. Also, it is close to canada, which is lax when it comes to letting people in the country and it is a quick trip across the river.

Next time flying from detroit, remember your self defense classes and bring plenty of pork chops.

Targetpractice -

I think instead we've overestimated our own country learning from its mistakes.

New York City being a case in point - the city which was hurt most grieviously by 9/11 - is overrun by moonbats saying "Bush Did It!"

This was no dry run, chummers: these guys were deadly serious. I think they stopped what they were doing because they realized they were getting a lot of negative attention, and they didn't want another flight 93 (they might not get any raisisns then).

#12, Paul in VA, is right; if you see this kind of BS, you've got to get in their face, you've got to push your way in---"HEY, YOU'VE BEEN IN THE (**&^%&^ BATHROOM ENOUGH, MY TURN NOW! WHERE YOU FROM? WHAT THE (**&^*&(* ARE YOU DOING IN THERE, ANYWAY? WHAT'S GOING ON? WHY DON'T YOU GUYS SIT DOWN?" The time for being nice is long past.

Political correctness is going to be the death of us all.

And what were all these guys doing on the plane? In fact, what were they doing in the country? Musicians? Yeah, right---pious Moslems don't approve of music.

Anyway, as the author of the article points out---if terrorists can teach themselves to fly planes, they can teach themselves to play music, at least enough to pass themselves off as "musicians."

This is one of the reasons that I LOVE EL AL.

I posted my experience in Italy last year on the previous thread. Basically, in Rome, there was an Arab smoking his brains out, pacing madly all around the waiting room and looking especially at the children. My husband and I noticed him right away. We approached the Alitalia desk and told them about our concerns. They were too busy checking people in. I went back, and tried to dumb it down a little: Suspicious. Arab. Pacing. Staring.

Bottom line-they did nothing and I was white nuckled the whole flight. I'll never, EVER, fly Alitalia again. I say report any suspicious behaviour. The terrorists are not going to details their plans to us before they strike. It may not be airplanes next time. It could be a damn, a water supply, and Lord only knows what else. But if we all pay close attention to whose looking at what, who is taking pictures, and report it-that can make a difference.

Why don't we have flights for jihadis only?

I want to thank the 9/11 Commission for letting the world, and these little (ahem) MUSICIANS know that we do not take terrorism seriously.

We were told that this commission would look back to see how America could have protected itself better. To prevent future 9/11's. Instead, all we got was a bunch of carping Jersey Girls, the baby-killer Bob Kerrey complaining about our Christian Army in Iraq, the fey Dick Clark who blamed Bush, and a hood from Philadelphia who showed up at the Farenheit 911 premiere.

When we get another one, I personally plan to blame to blame all these people.

This is one of the reasons that I LOVE EL AL.

WriterMom, you took the words off my keyboard.

Once CAIR and the media get their act together you can expect them to raise hell about the persecution of the poor innocent Syrian musicians. They will scream profiling and the US government will offer its apologies to all offended parties. What BS. The only good thing was that the air marshals were onboard, but it looks like they were outnumbered. My guess is that if they had tried to hijack, the plane most likely would have gone down due to depressurization and damage to the aircraft in the resulting battle with the passengers and air marshals. Beats hell out of another 911.

I read the whole piece. It's very disturbing and should be widely disseminated as a wake up call.

I can't believe that the rules are so stupidly restrictive that obvious means of smuggling such as artificial limbs and prosthetic shoes are exempt from searches. When it comes to searching passengers, safety demands that the government be allowed to perform any type of search they deem necessary, and to question whomever they deem a risk, without any quotas

You don't like it? You don't board the plane.

And one other thing - Islamic assassins who would carry out an operation like this would have trained together as a highly motivated team. The passengers who would fight back would go from "gee, can't wait to get to LA" mode to "fight for their lives" mode. They'd be a ragtag, completely freaked out, "team" and the odds would NOT be in their favor, imo. Battles of this nature absolutely MUST be won on the ground. They may be "won" in the air - but no one walks away, ala Pennsylvania.

Is Panetta still calling the shots here? If not who is? And how do we get in touch with this individual?

These guys ought to have been screened from the get go. The PC ACLU types are preventing better the DHS from implementing programs like CAPPS II:

CAPPS II will become a critical element in TSA's "system of systems" approach to security which includes thorough screening of baggage and passengers by highly trained screeners, fortified cockpit doors in all airliners, thousands of Federal Air Marshals aboard a record number of flights, and armed Federal Flight Deck Officers.

Under CAPPS II, airlines will ask passengers for a slightly expanded amount of reservation information, including full name, date of birth, home address, and home telephone number. With this expanded information, the system will quickly verify the identity of the passenger and conduct a risk assessment utilizing commercially available data and current intelligence information.

PC Liberals have screamed bloody murder at this data mining "invasion of privacy." What will it take.

#7 reaganite,

After 9-11 we had a seminar with one of the Grandmasters that I regularly (like twice a year) train with. Prior to 9-11, the topic of the seminar had been three-touch knockouts. We were going to have a lot of fun, knock some people out, and it is great, practical self-defense. If you touch the guy three times, and he's out cold without a bruise, you don't have much to worry about when John Law comes around to clean up the mess (break an arm, leg, back, and neck, and you best call a lawyer :-)

After 9-11 the topic was the latter. Quick kills and maiming techniques. And that's been the topic ever since.

At the end of the seminar, sensei sat us down and gave us about a fifteen minute lecture. The upshot of it was that, as martial artists, we had an obligation now.

We were part of the defense of the country. We cannot be disarmed, and we can blend in to the crowd (I can't, really, but I know a little old man who can mop the floor with me that you wouldn't look twice at). And there are a lot of us out there.

With the level of intensity, maybe it would have been wise for the pilot to make an emergency landing and kick their asses to the curb. Too bad they can't take a short cut to paradise by jumping from the plane without chutes.

#37 zulubaby

Hahahaha. Our hair beams must be on the same frequency tonight....

Now let's talk about the El Al Marshals. Can anyone say drool?

This is the scariest article I have read in a long time. I am reminded of the incident that James Woods mentioned during a flight he took in August 2001 on which four of the September 11 hijackers were present, going through a trial run.

This had better be taken really seriously by the FBI, etc.

RG

P.S I'm just kidding about switching topics.

Hate to ruin a good story but Reynolds notes some people think it's a hoax.Anyone find any corroboration for this? There are parts of the story that don't ring true.

Norman Mineta the clue phone is ringing; it's for you.

I just want to see a follow up on where these supposed musicians played. If the were bagged and tagged by the alphabet men, surely they were followed up on no?

does anyone know if El Al flys form the US to Anakra or Istanbul? Last time I took Lufthansa.

I amo fo the opinion that any U.S. citizen with with no felonies on is or her police record should have the right to bring a sidearm onto any commercial flight. Noncitizens, no matter who they are or how much they whine, should not have this right. The second amendment should only apply to U.S. citizens and should be nearly absoulte. It is reasonable to abridge your right to bear arms within line of sight of the president or vice president, or in a federal building. It is reasonable to restrict your right to keep and bear nuclear weapons. I'm open to argument as to whether it is permissable to have a howitzer within range of a federal building or nuclear power plant unless it's disabled for storage.

The one unifying factor of all the hijackers that is not racial or religious is that they were noncitizens. If say five percent of the passengers, a quarter of the stewerdesses, and half the flight crew had been packing heat they wouldn't have stood a chance.

#19 Yossarian

Cockpit lock does no good if they threaten to detonate a bomb placed in a lavatory. What is the pilot's choice at that point? (Rhetorical question.)
***
All cabinet secretaries are there at the president's appointment. Bush and associates should get Mineta with the program or replace him pronto. Bush Sr had no qualms about replacing all sorts of epople, even though Reagan was Republican.
***
OT but somewhat germane, Ariel Natan Pasko has an article about the Arab racists of the Sudan and their landgrabbing rape, mutilate, and murder tactics:

[Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...]

Even if I'm the only resistor on said flight, the would be perpetrators would know something of what a stupid, slack-jawed hayseed can do when his ire's been rankled. I might go down, but it certainly won't be submissively or willingly.

From the comments of others here, and from those of many of my co-workers, I would expect the same from many other U.S. passengers.

Now if I were on an Air France flight, given the same scenario, the flight attendants would run out of white napkins in short order...

9/11 will never be forgotten!

That was not epople, apologies to the Mayas, Incas, etc, but people.

#47

Better safe than sorry, besides she doesn't seem French.

Holy travel agent Batman! That is one scary article.

I've been saying it since 9/11/01, until this war is over:

Nobody from the Mid-East should be allowed to visit this country.

WTF is our government doing letting these guys visit from Syria in the first place?

Air Marshals are supposed to be incredibly well-trained and skilled. But can two Air Marshals subdue fifteen crazy terrorists equipped with zip guns, gas, exploding Happy Meals, and Lord-knows-what-else?

And Air Marshals are not on every flight. (Except for D.C.)

If there is another succesful 9/11 in which Muslims seize passenger jets, our government will still refuse to allow "profiling". Nobody's gonna fly in the face of that suicidal silliness. It will be the death of the American airline industry.

Of course, it does give me the chance to try my start-up business idea, "NoArab Air"

A Blast from The " not so" Past:

CAIR Defends Man Testing Security Procedures

On April 12, 2004, the Star-Telegram reported the conviction of a man who was testing the security system at Dallas/Ft. Worth Airport. According to the paper, Fazal Karim, a Pakistani national in the United States Illegally, attempted to smuggle 32 double-edged razor blades tucked in a coiled belt carried inside a cardboard box in carry-on luggage. (Karim is a Canadian citizen who was an illegal alien at the time of his arrest).

Just what did Karim do that attracted the attention of screeners?

1. He lied about his immigration status. (Illegal alien)

2. He placed his carry-on luggage on the conveyor belt; then walked away from it to a non-adjacent passenger screening device.

3. Told screeners the blades:

a. For shaving the bottom of his full beard. (Note: He had blades, no handles).

b. Said the blades were for a friend in Houston. (Note: ACAIR can find no record of there being a razor blade shortage in Texas)

c. Stated he didn’t know the blades were in the luggage.

And the response of the Council on American-Islamic Relations?

According to the Star-Telegram,

“A spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations said in an earlier interview that Karim’s prosecution fit a pattern of singling out travelers from predominantly Muslim nations after the 9-11 terrorist attacks.”

Once again, CAIR attempts to turn this into another example of profiling Muslims, despite there being absolutely no evidence that the screeners acted against Karim because of his religious beliefs.

Karim attempted to carry 32 double-edged razor blades onto an aircraft. His explanations were disingenuous and he was acting suspicious. CAIR disparages law enforcement again, when it implies that good security work is simply a case of profiling.

Karim’s defense attorney, Marlo Cadeddu had this to say:

“I don’t believe the government would have taken the position that it took if Mr. Karim were not a Muslim.”

Cadeddu can make all the unreasonable statements he cares too, but the simple fact remains that he has not told anyone how the screeners knew that Karim is a Muslim.

In any case, Karim has five years to do in the prison system and we won’t have to worry about him, or his razor blades, any time soon. He is to be deported following completion of his sentence.

#47 jim in Va
I don't care if it is a hoax - because it could very well happen as we don't have any true safeguards in place to keep it from happening. The flight that Rob G talks about in post #45 really did happen. Same thing - a 'dry run.' These guys WILL try this again. FOR SURE. If it takes 100 "hoaxes" for this country to get its shit straight when it comes to very real threats of this nature then so much the better. The next time a 9/1 style take-down happens I want the "Panetta" to hang from a rope - as they will be as culpable as the terrorists imo. And just why in the hell are we so concerned about the "civil rights" of people who aren't even citizens of this country -especially as it pertains to air travel?

My solution mailed to Homeland Security has not caught on.

Trained obediant attack dogs (also versed on explosives) on flights, three to five, under the command of the personal in control of the plane.

islamics find dog unclean...and the fact that they are frightened shitless of them. ask the abu gharibis..

What a wonderful sight to see a neck being compressed by a dog bite.

#43 Quark 2

Yes, considering the level of menace and the fear of the passengers, the pilot should simply have landed, and kicked those guys off the plane. If they, or Cair, or anybody protested, The pilot should then have refused to take off as long as they stayed on board. This is a matter of life and death. Being sued, being called a "racist", are all things you can survive. Being blown up in midair isn't.

Also, reading about the timid way the stewardesses and air marshals dealt with these guys---this has got to change too. Why couldn't they yell at them to sit down? Why couldn't the air marshals threaten them with, say, a stun gun, if they didn't sit down and get out of the bathroom? Why couldn't they shove those guys out of the lavatory, and go in there and search it? And, yes, if there was a danger, why couldn't they go to the pilot and tell him he had to land the plane as soon as possible?

It may be that the pretty, hostess, "Coffee, tea or me?" stewardess will become a thing of the past. Maybe we'll have to get some of the Abu Ghraib girls to be stewardesses: "OKAY YOU WANKERS! GET OUT OF THE *(*(&^%^^*(+_ JOHN NOW! AND IF IF ANYONE GIVES ME ANY TROUBLE, I'M GONNA PUT THESE PINK PANTIES ON YOUR HEAD, AND HAVE MY GERMAN SHEPHERD BARK AT YOU!"

The passengers should have banded together BEFORE the flight took off, the article did mention that several passenger were upset. Make some noise, I remember an incident (cant remember where) right after 9-11 where the passengers were very vocal and refused to fly with the muslims that were on board, threatened to walk off and never again use that airline. Make the airline choose, 15 creepy smelly muslims or 150 passengers. The more niose we make the better, being PC is going to kill us all, muslims are looking at our PC as an opportunity and a weakness, time to stop!

# 58 LSD:

He is to be deported following completion of his sentence.

That does absolutely no good. He'll just pick right where he left off. Better to deport him to Gitmo.

Sorry to be a wet blanket here, but something is fishy about the story.

Mainly the statement that there were airmashalls with an "S" on the plane. There aren't enough to put one on every flight let alone multiples. If the Feds thought this flight was worthy of more than one, why didn't they ground it?

I would hope the Feds aren't THAT inept.

Oh wait, Leon Mineta is in charge... so who knows?

#55 Ploomie

Who is this "we" you speak of and how come I never saw? Waaaaaaaaaaaa :(

Rayra-paging Rayra-ploomie says you're not chopped liver. Let's hava lookie.

#42 Iron Fist
You sir, are an American. We all have the same responsibility. You are well aware of that. I wish I had your training. I'll just fight dirty!

Okay folks, sorry again. Foaming at the brain. The suggestion about Norman Mineta was based on this part of the article Charles posted:

During the 9/11 hearings last April, 9/11 Commissioner John Lehman stated that ...it was the policy (before 9/11) and I believe remains the policy today to fine airlines if they have more than two young Arab males in secondary questioning because that's discriminatory.

So even if Northwest Airlines searched two of the men on board my Northwest flight, they couldn't search the other 12 because they would have already filled a government-imposed quota.

I continued my research by reading an article entitled Arab Hijackers Now Eligible For Pre-Boarding from Ann Coulter (www.anncoulter.com):

On September 21, as the remains of thousands of Americans lay smoldering at Ground Zero, [Secretary of Transportation Norman] Mineta fired off a letter to all U.S. airlines forbidding them from implementing the one security measure that could have prevented 9/11: subjecting Middle Eastern passengers to an added degree of pre-flight scrutiny. He sternly reminded the airlines that it was illegal to discriminate against passengers based on their race, color, national or ethnic origin or religion.

Coulter also writes that a few months later, at Mr. Mineta's behest, the Department of Transportation (DOT) filed complaints against United Airlines and American Airlines (who, combined, had lost 8 pilots, 25 flight attendants and 213 passengers on 9/11 - not counting the 19 Arab hijackers). In November 2003, United Airlines settled their case with the DOT for $1.5 million. In March 2004, American Airlines settled their case with the DOT for $1.5 million. The DOT also charged Continental Airlines with discriminating against passengers who appeared to be Arab, Middle Eastern or Muslim. Continental Airlines settled their complaint with the DOT in April of 2004 for $.5 million.

Since the search issue is policy, not law or even regulation, it can be changed fairly quickly. There would certainly be a backlash, but when wouldn't there be?

I agree with Talkinkamel, this may not have been a dry run, but an aborted mission.

Fifteen armed and trained men against 100 untrained and unarmed individuals that includes children and elderly is a dangerous situation.

Perhaps the Air Marshals were effective in aborting the mission.

Its surprising the plane was not ordered to land at a near by airport.

We got lucky this time.

#58 CAIR=Wahabis, therefore, their position makes total sense.

#1 Aaron's rantblog:

Cloth-covered pigskin seats.

AND naked stewardesses. LOL, they could not get on the plane!

#33 TalkinKamel

That's the ticket. A little cultural exchange. I flew to NY the April after Sept 11 and had my eye on a guy in a turban. So did many others.

It's amazing what a quick chat will reveal. From talking to Arabs working at my local 7-11s around the time of the Afghanistan war, I figured that out. Some talked openly for or against, but others just gave me a cold look and clammed up.

#50 Pamela

El Al had stopped flights to Turkey for a while, but now they have resumed.

My husband is flying domestic Monday, and I am already a wreck! That article does show that thise who find racial profiling to be a necessity are very right. Enough with the PC crap already.

The other question to ask, "What if?" What if the plane had gone down? There would have been a record of the 14-15 passengers with Syrian passports. What would the response of the US had been? We know the response with 15/19 mass murders being Saudi on 9/11. Would the follow-up to the plane going down scenario have been any different? With the PC crap today, one has to wonder.

#71 paul in Va

That's the ticket. A little cultural exchange. I flew to NY the April after Sept 11 and had my eye on a guy in a turban. So did many others.

A turban is not a Kufiyyah.

Re: this being a hoax -- there really is a NWA flight 327 from DTW to LAX. Its listed departure is 12:22 p.m.

That's all the evidence I need!
/Chief Wiggum

{well, maybe not, but it helps ... }

#47 The article says Jacobsen is one of Womens Wall Street's writers. Seems a bit much that she'd risk her job and the site its credibility with a hoax. They're probably more astute at fact-checking that the New York Times, for instance ;)

I flew over 50,000 miles domestically on business last year and may match that this year. This article has convinced me to keep my keys and a pen or two on my person in-flight. If the sh** hits the fan, an improvised weapon is better than none. And if I'm on a flight where this kind of thing starts to happen, I'll be in the aisle amidst the Syrians. Sorry if you think it's rude to stare, watch your hands, and follow every move you make. BTW, I will be peeking into the waste bin and any other nook and cranny in the restroom after you've been in there.

Oh, and a hearty F*** YOU to the Islamists who replaced lost baggage as America's number 1 flying worry. I'll be in seat 9C on Friday, if you care to discuss it.

Make the airline choose, 15 creepy smelly muslims or 150 passengers.

AHEM. See my comments on this story in the Attack-on-Italy thread, before y'all get too riled up.

#58

To Hell with CAIR; we don't profile nearly enough. Mineta needs to be replaced by someone who will allow Muslims/Arabs to be searched and interrogated. I don't care if the most horrendous racist in the entire world gets his job, just as long as he allows Muslims to be profiled.

How many of the hijackers were Arabic Muslims? Oh, yes: ALL OF THEM.

This story is damned scary. I agree with someone else here who believes that they were entirely serious and only stopped when they realized that they were receiving lots of attention.

Political correctness will be the death of us all. Not only of us, but of the entire civilized world as we know it.

#62 Cops Wife

I couldn't agree with you more, the airlines should take into consideration...a small group of them or a large group of regular customers.

Last month I flew on jet blue and was shocked at the laxity of security standards.

Could this have been only a case of mistaken identity, well yes possibly. Remember that the Iraq Symphony Orchestra did come to the US for a concert last year.

Still, I probably would have asked to get off the plane before it took off no matter how un-PC it would have appeared.

But of course I haven't forgotten the memorial service for my dearest friend for whom I gave one of the eulogies.

[Link: cf1.newsday.infi.net...]

@64 RightIsRight

Air Marshalls do not fly alone. They always fly as teams of three...usually. One could not do much deterence if there are 3 or more terrorists to confront.
As we don't really know the level of intensity will trigger a response from the fams, I guess that may have the deterent that stopped the terrorists from following through on whatever they were up to.
Now, I am wondering, what did they find in the bathrooms after they were searched? I bet we'll never know.

74 Reaganite

A turban is not a Kufiyyah.

Yeah, well, I hadn't discovered LGF back then. I thought he looked Indian, so I may not have been all that concerned.

I considered it a dry run for me ;)

#66 reaganite,

Thank you, sir.

I do not believe I have ever been given a higher complement.

Thanks Charles.

I am 100% sure if I had been on that plane I would have started something, at least a conversation. At 6'6", I can be a little intimidating, and those Muslims are typically cowards.

Having said that, my heartrate has not slowed, 15 min after reading that. I am deeply troubled and scared by that, and this collective amnesia here has got to stop.

I... didn't need to read this article today. Don't get me wrong, I think it's important to read this... I'd normally forward a link to my father... but my parents are flying from NY to San Fransisco on saturday for a week long 30th anniversary vacation... and reading this made me put that into context... If I showed him, I don't think he'd be able to get on the plane... As it stands right now, I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight because of this... it's got me really freaked out...

I just don't know what to say.

Though I've got to say I like Iron Fist's post in #42... that makes me feel a little bit better, as I know a LOT of people involved in martial arts circles...

The paralysis of the crew is very troubling. Isn't the captain in charge of the plane? Why didn't he declare an emergency and order everyone to stay put in their seats?

In a situation like that, something must be done to mess with the Muzholes' rhythm. Occupy the bathrooms till landing, as someone suggested.

Something!

Were people too afraid of being sued by the ACLU to fight for their lives??

Not believing in coincidence is one of the secrets of a long life.

If they were assembling a bomb, then there would be no "incident" to rouse the air marshals into action - just the explosion that takes down the plane. The pilot having a gun would not have helped. The only possible solution would have been if the air marshals had arrested and subdued them, but could they manage to get 15 men?

We are making a very big mistake by telling ourselves that our enemy is stupid. They may be fanatical, and they are definitely evil, but they are not stupid. They are studying our systems and looking for the weak spots, and every commission and white paper and newspaper article that details our vulnerabilities helps the enemy.

Yes, PC is going to guarantee the next 9/11, and we can see it coming now: multiple airliners blown up in mid-air, probably jumbo jets filled with hundreds of passengers, probably over major cities. Thousands dead in the air and on the ground. And I don't see our President doing anything effective to stop it, or to respond to it when/if it happens. He fought a PC war in Iraq and he's fighting a PC war at home. He is not the right man to fight this war, but unfortunately, the Democrats are even worse.

The story, while scary, was not credible. If the air marshalls (and I too found the hoard of alleged air marshalls a litle hard ot swallow) were that worried they would have ordered the plane to land and at least one of them would have gone into that bathrooom, locked the door, and searched it.

Like the Paris subway attacks, hoaxes can be damaging.

#82 Iron Fist
I find people like you to be more loyal to America than any privileged lefty. Through he school of hard knocks you (and I) have learned the value of what we have.

OT: on Oreilly just now, Whoopi got fired by Slimfast for her comments about Bush!

There's gotto be some LGF readers who work as pilots or flight attendants. If the Jacobsen story is accurate, (and I bet it is) I'd expect the story to be the talk of the air travel industry.

Anyone?

One day I'll use preview.

#47 The article says Jacobsen is one of Womens Wall Street's writers. Seems a bit much that she'd risk her job and the site its credibility with a hoax.

Dude, search the Women's Wall Street site for other articles by Annie Jacobsen. She has one other bylined piece (some financial advice involving a yuppie couple buying a house, IIRC) -- i.e., she's a freelance contributor who submitted a column once upon a time, but maybe she wasn't a very good writer and her material needed a lot of editing to get it into publishable condition, so they weren't going to use her again, but then -- oh, she's got this SCARY and TOPICAL true-life story about a near-hijacking(?) on an airplane, so they run it.

It has been comforting to read (for the months I've been here) that no flight will ever be hijacked again. It is comforting, but I'm not so sure. People who post here are but a tiny subset of the US population. A subset that because it (we) understand the threats poised to this country, "self-select," and post here.

Why is Norman Mineta still in place? He has proven himself a idiot many times over. Yes, America is sorry we put Japanese into relocation camps. He acts if anything done to prevent massive attacks is equivalent to locking up little Japanese kids (BTW- Many of those locked up were NOT even citizens, IIRC).

Maybe it's time to look into starting some sort of martial arts training, eh? What flavor is yours, Iron Fist?

-dg

#78 Cognosus

I recall reading somewhere that G. W. Bush is extremely loyal to subordinates. If you're a CEO that's one thing, but as President maybe it's not the best course. It wasn't until this year, after all, that George Tenet "resigned for personal reasons." He should have been swept out in January 2001, and Mineta has proven a PC hack unworthy of any real responsibilities for air travel.

The Clintons sacked people just to give jobs to their friends. Surely W. can send a few on their way because of their gross incompetence and general unsuitability for the job. (Fingers crossed)

@88 ambisinistral

According to a reported interview with a team of fam, they do not now ever fly alone. FAMs fly as teams of 3, sometimes they may just be only a team of two.
This was what was shown in the interviews with an FAM team. Security in numbers.

When I was an undergraduate, a self-defense course was strongly encouraged for all incoming freshwomen. Now maybe that was intended to proof the freshmeat against lecherous jocks, but IMHO, it was a great idea! Wouldn't it be a good idea, in this post 9/11 world we live in, for that to be a curricular requirement for both sexes? Or maybe a choice between martial arts training and a self-defense course?

TWO nights without tunes? Is this punishment or is the iTunes broken?

WriterMom:

You got your hair beams up tonight.

#77

I will get riled up about anything I fu*king please...especially when it comes to this garbage. We fly often and I will never sit quietly and take that crap...telling me what to do or when to and not to get riled up might work if I were a mindless muslim woman...but fortunatly I am a opinionated full fledged infidel.

Al Guardian observes that dry runs have occurred (2/8/04).

[Link: observer.guardian.co.uk...]

#91 Reaganite not Reaganette:

We like you the way you are!

#95 Belize042: Dennis Miller said that Tennant was the "canary in the coalmine"-- as long as he had his job, everyone else's was safe. Dennis also said it would be kewl if Cheney took Tennants job, and then Rudi could be the vice-pres.

Well this subset of the population plans on staying loud and clear on the present danger. Like Jeremiah the prophet, mostly I find my noise ignored, flipped off. But at least being forewarned is to be forearmed.
This would be a good time to invest in the manufacturing of new rope. It could be a hanging success.

RE; Is is a hoax or not? I have several friends who are flight attendants. RARELY do any of the "incidents" make the evening news. By "incidents," I mean ANY strange airplane activities (including air rage). Once I was talking to one of them about an "air rage" incident, that's when he told me we never hear about most of the problems, and he's a very reliable person (though he's a liberal).

#91 reaganite:

One day I'll use preview.

That's no fun. Live dangerously! ;-p

Seriously, I almost feel sorry for any jihadis that try to start some shit with you or Iron Fist around.

Almost.

OT:
According to Drudge, Lurch has assed the Hilary to speak. There's a pic - boy she looks old.

What is her nickname at LGF? I can think of shrew.

This is trouble. How do passengers react to this before it's too late? This is different from thwarting a hijacking attempt.

If they do succeed once or twice, it's going to be open season on Muslims here. Arab-looking individuals may as well not bother flying.

I don't think this is a hoax. Would someone go to the trouble of writing such a long and detailed article as a hoax? I can't imagine that. Perhaps everyone is feeling a little skeptical because of that woman in France?

reaganite

One day I'll use preview.

This is cheating...compared to reading the directions of everything that labelled....Easy to assemble

#102, jinnderella:

Dennis also said it would be kewl if Cheney took Tennants job, and then Rudi could be the vice-pres.

I think I'd be down with that idea.

[unfounded speculation]
Maybe that's why GWB hasn't named Tenet's replacement yet. He's waiting for the convention. :-P
[/unfounded speculation]

-dg

test

Uh oh.

My theories:
I think it was a dry run. Didn't the article say the FBI found the men to be "clean"?
-or- If it wasn't a dry run, then - what happened to all of the bomb-making ingredients?

second - I have my doubts that there were Air marshals
on board. The flight attendant may have been bluffing. (shhh don't tell anyone - even though someone might over-hear and that might help deter a plan - sort of thing.)

just a theory.

quark2 - I agree. I reasonably and calmly tell everyone who questions my support for Bush that they are trying to kill us, they will continue to do so, and the "end" of al-Qaeda will not be the end of the WoT, even if a future President decides it is. I hope I wasn't too "dismissive" of the people on this blog, I was just stating the obvious. We know we are at war, about half the population think Kerry's ideas (WoT should be a criminal justice response, not militray response, the UN has our best interests at heart...) are OK, and either don't realize we're at war, or don't care.

This is an idea no one's put out yet, and it may not be at all plausible, but just to throw it out there...is it possible that this was a test by the FBI, etc., to see how people would react? Perhaps the 14 men were actually part of a simulation, to test the responses of the flight attendants and pilots and air marshals or to observe how people reported the incident? I'm not saying I think that's what happened (waaaaaay too much risk involved, methinks, for the government to consider doing such a thing), but does anyone know whether those involved in government simulations without their knowledge at the time are debriefed at the end?

http://redstate.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2004/7/15 /163528/506

Has this been linked already?

The whole truth of this whether true or hoax is that an armed society is a polite society. If I am on a plane with a knife or a hand gun, I am a citizen. When I am on a plane totally defensless, I am a "victim"! Being a "victim" is unconstitutional except in the court system!

They don't want to hijack the plane...they want to DESTROY it.
Ideally over some major population center.

I live in Hawaii and every time I get on a plane it's at least a 5 hour trip. I can't swim 2500 miles, so the TSA had better find some scrot and start looking after Americans (and other civilized humans). If it's at the expense of some wannabe splodeydopes, tough shit.

Holden

#92 Throbert McGee

What if her article is a fabrication from beginning to end? Does that mean security is adequate, and PC fears of being labeled a "Racial Profiler" are nonexistent?

I spend more time in airports than anyone who doesn't wear a Delta or Northwest nametag. Doors propped open, construction areas closed off with sawhorses and secured by menacing "No entry" signs, flight crews who write the door codes on paper cards that they tape inside their hats, fer chrissakes, inadvertently taking a couple of 5-inch screwdrivers in my carryon (I'd been installing video cards that week, and the screwdrivers were not even noticed by TSA), and the airlines' and TSA's lax enforcement of carry-on size restrictions (What can be hidden from X-rays by the metal frame and handle of such a large bag? A lot.) convince me that even "the authorities" are not serious about the threat.

It's real, and unless the other side gives up, it's going to happen again.

Silly me, and I thought that any possible problems would be dealt with like Adam Sandler in Anger Management.

"Sir, our country is going through a very difficult time right now."

Oh, wait, Mr. Sandler is a white man and a Jew. THAT is why it wasn't racially motivated!!!!!

Husband also has many non airline related stories that would stand your hear on end and have you out buying all the duct tape at home depot. And they never make the news.

All you hear (if anything) is Dan Rather portentously pronouncing, "There seems to be ANOTHER raising of the terror threat, designed to make Bush surge in the polls because when people feel threatened they are less likely to want to switch. And by the way, have I told everyone that I hate George Bush? And I told all the soldiers I talked to in Iraq that they were wasting their lives for a stupid cause?"

He really did say that, in different words. Husband was there.

#9 ftm  
Or worse, those militant Amish.

The "militant" Amish, as I recall, don't fly.
Nor do they (typically) play musical instruments - music beign one of those things that takes time that could be spent praying, don'chya know...

#96 quark2,

I stand corrected on that point then. The story still doesn't ring true to me -- for example, Americans are more vocal than the way people acted in that story IMO. Ya never know though...

#106 john5z

Warning: This picture may be harmful to humanity...

Is this what you are referring to? Even Botox would not help. She is pure evil.

Pete(detroit)

Ah, but the Amish have dispensations to fly airplanes, believe it or not!!!

My anthro prof at FSU told us about her friend, who had left the Amish lifestyle as a teen and moved to the West Coast. Her bro was able to fly to visit her because they had one of their little meetings and decided that a society that was as far flung as ours may take extra measures to visit.

They're allowed computerized chess games and roller blades, too.

#34 writermom

You gave me an interesting solution. The solution is not to continue complaining to a bunch of bored deskjockeys and it is not to get on the flight either.

The solution is to start raising your voice to every single passenger you see, and point your finger and state your concerns.

Then and only then, will the bored deskjockeys, who could care less if you get blown up at 8000 feet, begin to sweat. They will sweat because they will fear for the most important thing in their lives ... their jobs.

The same thing is true I think for any of us. The only way the idiots running the airlines will bother showing concern is if we show concern ... and hell of a lot at that. We don't need to get belligerent, we need to be loud enough to be heard ... by every passenger. We don't let anyone "sweep it under the rug" 'cause this is our @#$@#ing lives we're talking about.

You show concern, you demand that every single one of those mother-@#$#@ are searched, if the only way to search them is to be body-searched yourself, so be it. If the only way is if every passenger gets searched, no problem here boss.

And don't let someone tell you "well you don't have to go on this flight". We already know that, thanks. Your concerned also for the other 200 passengers. And you are going to make clear to every single one of those passengers that this particular airline does not give a rats ass about your lives. You make that clear, you say that loud.

If you are on a plane with 5 or more guys of obvious middle eastern extraction whom you've just noticed, then you point them out to your fellow passengers, you point them out to the stewardessess you make a complete and utter nuisance of yourself. You make everyone on the flight hate you. Because the alternative is death. Maybe not on this flight, maybe not the next one, but sooner or later, that's what will happen. How many of you here would be willing to trade some hatred if you could have prevented 9-11, I'll bet everyone here would be willing to.

If we do that on each and every flight we go on, then the airlines will get the message that they cannot just close their eyes. It won't work.

-ron

Is is a hoax or not? I have several friends who are flight attendants. RARELY do any of the "incidents" make the evening news.

Not the national evening news, but geez, local newscasts will show dogs on waterskis to pad out the time. ("Well, he looks dog-gone happy... back to you, Tracy.")

And nowadays, even local news stations in podunk towns like L.A. have websites. But I Googled on "Northwest Flight 327" earlier this afternoon, and guess what turned up?

*cricket*

*cricket*

To answer Zulubaby's question:

Would someone go to the trouble of writing such a long and detailed article as a hoax?

...please pay close attention to the words from the Women's Wall Street E-ditors [gaaaaah!] at the very end of the story:

To receive any follow-up articles about Annie's experience, go to [Link: www.WomensWallStreet.com...] and register to become a member.

I'll bet WWS's page hits went soaring today...

(This better get me a hat tip in the morning.)

Oh thanks,

I work for an airline (not flight crew) and I travel a lot on business.

As if I wasn't worried enough!

If you never see me again, you'll know what happened ;p

OK, I think we are all missing the lesson here. There is an airline company that has managed to not only survive, but continue to be prosperous and SAFE FROM TERRORISTS.

El Al. They have been mentioned in previous posts, but it hasn't been explained how they have managed to thwart the bastards:

Even UsaToday has to agree that they kick butt

Wow, the beeb chimes in

My goodness, even CNN sees it

Hey, it's Forbes!

And my big fav NRO

C'mon folks. We have the perfect example to follow. We all know that if it were possible, the islamonutbags would have blown an Israeli airplane to bits by now. Why hasn't that happened? You know it must really stick in their dark ages craw.

Wanna know why? El Al doesn't f*^ck around with the PC crap, and they arm all passengers with METAL utensils. Visible armed guards on the flight don't hurt either.

ballantrae (#125),

I'm with ya. Holding hands and praying is not the recommended course of action.

#36 Melissa

The issue is the complete waste of time that the TSA has erected as a "security" scan. I fail to see how scanning my 5 year old daughter is going to somehow add to the security of the flight.

I am really pissed off at that.

Never mind the PC BS. Until the TSA gets a clue that security does not mean dis-interested and underpaid "security" staff looking bored by the x-ray machine, and asking me to remove my shoes ...

Until these folks get a clue that security is an active and difficult task, multi-layered and not procedural, we are all at risk. Look at what El Al does. What the TSA needs to do, and I pray that someone near the top reads this is to comb the ranks of police for smart cops who can help them design an El Al like method for screening. The last thing you want is to build a procedural security system as your only barrier. Such systems can be and often are compromised with abandon.

Random scans are but one aspect. Scanning a 5 year old is a complete waste of their time, my tax dollars, and it does nothing to improve safety.

Here is what I found when I boarded many a flight from the end of 2001 to beginning 2003. If you are in first class, don't be 1st or 2nd in line. You will get yanked for a full scan. I found this by keeping mental notes of the procedures (call it elementary g2). I figured that our enemies were doing similar things.

I sent a note over to the TSA about what I found. Not a bloody thing back.

I sometimes wonder if they want to seem to be doing something, anything, rather than actually solving a problem, which would be hard. Or get them accused of being racist. Politicians hate that stuff. Doesn't sit well for future elections.

Hope they fix the problem before more of us buy some real estate.

OT

Late breaking news out of Philadelphia.... a Southwest flight that originated from Houston had 10 passengers overwhelmed by some kind of fumes. 4 are in critical condition and 6 are in serious condition, hospitalized.
Anyone have any details on this?

And the worst thing, the absolute worst thing about this?

I'm not going to be able to get half-lit at the airport tomorrow before my flight, because I have to be alert during the transit home. No Friday Drinking Thread for me.

F*** you, AlQaeda.

125 ballantrae

Good point.

Another option is to talk to the biggest people on the flight and organize a man-to-man defensive coverage -- assign two or three guys to watch every suspected terrorist. If and when the shit starts to go down, everyone hits his man. Hard.

#116 carefulnow

Interesting. Still I'd say the Redstate arguments that it's a hoax are not conclusive. If this really happened, the flight attendant could easily have been so stressed out and scared that she did not react in a wholly optimum manner.

I know I would have been.

Charles, special thanks for this one.

I haven't researched it yet but found the article and it's quotes pretty credible, and have forwarded it on to my non-LGF loved ones and friends - this one definitely deserves it.

I'm glad to know that #76 Belize042 is on American flights, should I fly again soon I'd want Belize as a fellow traveller - props to you Belize, and I'm your wingwoman should we be there.

#123: NY Nana, LOL!!

#whatever: Jinni!! You're here!!!

I mean, GAZE.

I STILL want to be frisked by ex-IDF El Al officer.

Geepers (129)

What about if we sing Kumbaya?

or We Shall Overcome?

What if her article is a fabrication from beginning to end? Does that mean security is adequate, and PC fears of being labeled a "Racial Profiler" are nonexistent?

Nope, the security problems are still there, as is the PC bullshit. The thought occurs to me that this story might be a plant by the Department of Homeland Security just to keep us on our toes. Everyone who reads this story is gonna be mentally rehearsing what to do in the eventuality: "What if I were on a plane and saw a group of Arab men hanging out by the lavatories? Would I be scared and paralyzed, like they were on flight 327 in that story I read on the Internet?"

So I'm sticking by the hoax theory, but possibly it's a carefully planned meme release by the gubmint rather than the work of a hack freelance writer, as I first thought.

#62 CopsWife

....being PC is going to kill us all, muslims are looking at our PC as an opportunity and a weakness, time to stop!

During an official meeting on Islamic-Christian dialogue, an authoritative Muslim person, speaking to the Christians participating, at one point said very calmly and assuredly: "Thanks to your democratic laws we will invade you; thanks to our religious laws we will dominate you."
"We Will Dominate You" The Middle East Quarterly DECEMBER 1999 • VOLUME VI: NUMBER 4

Leftist whiny Americans are such pussies.
I've said this many times since 9/11: Our Airports should be run more like prisons instead of posh shopping malls.

We will have another attack. How many more will it take for our pussy lame-ass liberal PC society to wake up?
I don't know. Liberals don't seem to care about it unless it affects them directly.

heads up... something bad happening at BWI.

12 people unconcious off flight. Mass vomiting.

airport shut down

www.fark.com

more

136 LT:

Careful with those hair lights, girl.

26 Attaboid  
This was a creepy, disturbing story. Even the Europeans have better standards?

Europeans have had better standards since, well, forever... Friend of mine has pix of armed patrols on roof at Rome.
Heavily Armed.

#122, ambisinistral:

Americans are more vocal than the way people acted in that story IMO.

... BUT there is a very real psychological impediment to being the first to speak up. (In addition to the "bystander effect": see Kitty Genovese -- more here.) Nobody wants to looks stupid. Especially in an unfamiliar situation like that where nobody seems to know what's going on.

If the story is true, it is likely that, had one person said something, many people would have been "more vocal" -- but in the presence of many people all of whom are taking their cues from one another ... maybe not so much.

-dg

#126 Throbert: It has the smell of a hoax. The content is too emotional. The serendipity of her presence on the plane is unbelievable. I agree that it will be debunked-- since you will get the hattip, can I make a wager? Anyone care to bet?

militarybrat (#137),

Oh, now you're suggesting we become proactive?!

Warmonger! Warmonger!

;-Þ

And even if we have 100% perfect security on the plane, there is little to stop terrorists from shooting "stinger" missles at loaded passenger jets. And the Muslims in Afghanistan became very proficient at shooting down Russian helicopters landing at military bases - so don't tell me it can't be easily done at a U.S. civilian airport.

IIRC Congress is looking into requiring jets to carry flare systems to repel those shoulder-launched missles. If enacted, the flare-systems would be required - three years from now!

So, uh Go Greyhound until 2008.

#126 Throbert McGee:

Looks like your Google-Fu is weak. All I had to do was go to Northwest's home page (nwa.com), then do a search on flight 327. The results:

Flight: 327
Date: Thu., July 15, 2004
Departs: DTW Arrives: LAX
Gate: A30 Gate: 28
Scheduled: 12:22PM Scheduled: 2:01PM

The article says it was a four-hour flight. Account for two hours of time zones, and it adds up.

I can't vouch for the validity of the article itself, but the flight details certainly check out.

LINTHICUM, Md. -- A plane landed at Baltimore-Washington International Airport late Thursday night apparently with several people unconscious.

A Southwest Airlines flight from Houston that was supposed to dock at BWI's Gate C11 is reported to have as many as 12 people onboard who were not conscious when the plane landed, WBAL-TV 11 News reporter John Sherman reported. It is unclear as to why the people were possibly unconscious.

#144

Also, no one wants to be the first to get their throat slit.

I would recommend martial arts training for everyone. I am a small woman (I was also a gymnast), and after 6 months of Judo training, I felt confident that I could seriously hurt anyone who was trying to hurt me. It might take a few more months for someone without a gymnastics background to get proficient. Also, my course focused on the mechanics of the throws, practice for matches, and actual Judo matches. A less combat focused program would also take more time to get proficient.

Judo is especially good for short people--it uses other people's size and weight against them. The key to having a good throw is getting your center of gravity below the other person's center of gravity.

At the Air Force Academy, every senior had to take a 10 lesson gym class in unarmed combat. I was allowed to exempt because of my Judo expertise, but many of my friends said it was useful. My small women friends were especially appreciative.

I haven't done Judo for 10 years, but I'm still confident I could be quite helpful on a plane in a situation like this.

#138

You're right, it's all a HUGE conspiracy. Just like the lunar landing and the Mars rover. It's hard to believe that the supposedly educated populace can actually believe this drivel. I always KNEW where my tax money was being wasted.

Funny though how the "gubmint" doesn't seem to be able to fake a decent welfare state, or a decent universal medical plan.

I mean, they can lie that they spend BILLIONS on space, but when they lie about the BILLIONS on entitlements it just doesn't wash.

/spit

My sister, who works for a major American airline, has forwarded me emails about a flight from the Caribbean where apparently unrelated ME men gathered, talked, and gave hostile looks to the FAs when asked to take their seats.

Hoax or not, this time, something is up.

I wonder if the Italy chatter is designed to either 1)test Italian reaction or 2) divert attention away from real target.

My gut, the US is safe until after both conventions. The jihadis don't want to use their powder, so to speak, before then.

Of course, Boston or NYC during the conventions would be juicy targets, but the jihadis know security will be tight.

I saw the spooky thing about al Qaeda supposedly having nukes, but I think they'd have used them if they had them already, especially since they could be detected.

I suspect whatever plans have already been put together, I'd guess several near simultaneous truck bombings at shopping malls or office buildings around the country in October. Maybe Pali style suicide bombers in public places, college classrooms, sporting events, movie theatres. If they had anthrax or gas, thats also the time I'd guess they'd use it.

Besides inviting the UN for... - I don't really know what - what the he** is Kerry's plan for terrorist threats/attacks on the US?

I haven't heard anything really, do I have to go watch the nightly news to find out? Is it even there?

Should I be watching j0hnkerry.com for this, because, I don't have the time...

God help us.

#94 Dexter green

I am looking into Krav Maga at a school near me. Wife believes its good for the whole family. I learned an obscure style some years ago in college.

It's probably a good idea at this point to mandate some sort of training for all abled bodied adults in the US. Call it part of our national service.

Might help to get some coach potatoes out the door.

Cops wife:

Grrrrr. You sound spunky and, well, dangerous. Hooray!

Can you imagine if one of the hijabed chattel were to carry a, ohh, umm . . .say, large tampon sized piece of C4 explosive in her hoo-hoo-dilly? All she would have to do is go to the restroom, pop in a detonator from the cell phone that she brought in with her in her purse, and the rest is up to her. Our day: ruined.

We cannot say we are safe from these threats while we continue to object to profiling and searching sensitive parties. I don't think that any female will feel real great about submitting to an OB/Gyn exam pre-flight, but it would be a good start to insuring safe flying. Pilots should have the ability to lock down the restrooms when the flight is high risk. That's what those little bags are for, anyway.

Better yet, MUSLiner: a sensitive, halal, flight that specializes in the comfort and safety of its passengers, complete with prayer time alerts and halal meals and sex segregated passenger compartments, might be the answer to this difficult problem. No infidels allowed! We can't harass you, so we will shun you! Have your own flights! Try to keep em in the skies! We dare you!

Sta-puft (#149),

Interesting, that's the forth flight were passengers have become unconscious in recent months.

Is this a common occurrence that is now being reported because of increased awareness or something more sinister?

#106 john5z:

According to Drudge, Lurch has assed the Hilary to speak.

Yeah, she's been playing hard to get.

Flight: 327
Date: Thu., July 15, 2004
Departs: DTW Arrives: LAX
Gate: A30 Gate: 28
Scheduled: 12:22PM Scheduled: 2:01PM

Er, what does THAT have to do with THIS:

On June 29, 2004, at 12:28 p.m., I flew on Northwest Airlines flight #327 from Detroit to Los Angeles with my husband and our young son.

Just what I needed to read before a cross-continent flight Saturday. Well written. But I have to wonder - she describes them speaking Arabic to each other, yet at one point, she writes, "he ... mouthed the word No". The English word? No is "la" in Arabic, which even when "mouthing" is distinctly different.

#156 Nuclear Tinkerbell

hoo-hoo-dilly

[Giggling loudly like a complete retard] I love it when people use technical terms!

#138 Thobert McGee

Flight info

Please, please, go to the source. I don't get NWA flight info from google.com. I get it from nwa.com.

Took me 15 seconds, most of it waiting for a page load.

I think them cricks are rather loud right now.

My parents want me to go with them to London the week of the US election.

I think they're fucking mad.

#159 - Throbert McGee

Airlines typically use the same flight number for the same place to place trip at the same time, on different days... so the flight info for that flight# they posted was for that flight TODAY, but the times and locations would most likely match up w/the ones from a few weeks ago.

Have a hard time believing this one is a hoax -- she didn't hedge her bets by employing vague Michael Moore-ish generalizations. Instead, she provided a lot of verifiable/provable details. If she is lying, she's as bold and shameless a liar as Joe Wilson.

Here's a picture of her (I think) at WomensWallStreet, at the top of another of her articles.

TO: Reaganite
RE: Whatever It Takes

"I wish I had your training. I'll just fight dirty!" -- Reaganite

It's really quite easy. All you need is to know where to 'touch'. Then you practice your 'reach out and touch someone' techniques a bit, every now and then.

Get comfortable dealing with someone who has a knife or, better, a mere razor blade device. Carry a jacket. Wrap it around your non-favorite arm and use it as a shield.

Go for the knees with a short side kick. Remember to follow through, before withdrawing.

Extend and join fingers on your striking hand, with your thumb extended out at 90°. Jam the join of thumb and fingers under your opponent's nose and push hard, he'll go over backwards. Or just smash upward under his nose with the heel of your striking hand. You'll break it and he'll be at your mercy.

If he extends his weapon hand towards you, lock up his arm by extending your shield arm and moving it in a circle, coming up with your shield-arm hand to grab his shoulder. Then use your striking hand to smash his nose, as described above.

All very simple, once you know it.

There are many other simple techniques. Maybe the American Red Cross should begin some training programs.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[You may not always be armed, but you can always be dangerous.]

Gut feeling problem with cabin pressurization in flight, without deployment of masks.

WUSA article says overcome by fumes on runway, maybe this happened after landing, and the ventilation system sucked in enough CO from another jet (or even its own engines) to poison passengers.

Winds at BWI only 3 mph.

I hope it isn't something malicious, especially since I'm flying SWA on Monday.

#157 Geepers

Well, it can't be food-related, unless those 1/2 oz. pretzel packages are poisoned.

Seriously, compare that to any other population sample, and it's out of line. Airliners are pressurized to levels common in western states, so it's not like a lack of oxygen is causing this. Soft drinks are served from cans, liquor from sealed bottles, and it's unlikely such a large number of people would eat at the same airport restaurant before the flight. But they must have something in common. I suspect further investigation will reveal a mundane cause.

Throbert: Flight 327 is like the Batman TV show: Same bat time, same bat channel, EVERYDAY.

-dg

#48

"Flight: 327
Date: Thu., July 15, 2004
Departs: DTW Arrives: LAX
Gate: A30 Gate: 28
Scheduled: 12:22PM Scheduled: 2:01PM"

Naw, mate, the date's too late. This was on July 15; the flight in the article is supposed to have been on June 29.

Granted, I don't know much about airline policies; maybe they have a flight #327 which leaves at 12:30 or so, from DTW to LAX, every month.

This story is damned scary. I agree with someone else here who believes that they were entirely serious and only stopped when they realized that they were receiving lots of attention.

Or, someone realized that by the time the plane reached LA there wasn't enough fuel left on board to make (as) effective a weapon.

#154 Sojourner

Speaking of the evil hate organization that Hanoi john so adores:

Palestinians squatters on Israeli land draft decision on barrier to be debated by UN

Today is the day (Friday in NY now).

Sarah D and all who feel that El Al should help? How right you are...

Now I am freaking out about my husband's flight to Cleveland.

Ed Moran:

Do you see any signs of a potential Nor'Easter coming up the East Coast Sunday night into Monday? Seriously, the local ABC weatherman said he sees one forming....

@157 Geepers

Maybe something more than a dry run?

Since the jihadists are pretty much decentralized, maybe some of them will get hair brained and pre emptively strike. One more big one, and we won't have to worry about seething and whinging, many will be exodusing this country to get away from the stupid and MAD white folks.

TO: Geepers
RE: Hand Holding & Praying

"Holding hands and praying is not the recommended course of action." -- Geepers

That's what the women are to do. The men are to go forth and lay down their lives for their wives. Just as He did for His church.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[So, do you want to live forever? -- Conan the Barbarian, the Movie]

41 Paul in VA

Heard on the news today the f****n' aclu got the CAPPSII program stopped. Much celebration in libland.
The next attack succeeds that could have been stopped by this and somehow, someway they need to be blamed for it.
The libs get away with everything like this. Who blames torricelli for our intel failures?
Enough is enough. You take a side, you take the consequences of your choices.

Egad are people this uninformed?

Go to NWA time table in PDF format and read it.

Hint. Look on page 37. Right hand side.

Same flight, nearly every day.

lmg:

I don't see our President doing anything effective to stop it, or to respond to it when/if it happens. He fought a PC war in Iraq and he's fighting a PC war at home. He is not the right man to fight this war, but unfortunately, the Democrats are even worse.

Exactly--you limn my despair with exquisite precision. Our political leadership is so denuded that we are left praying that W is playing possum for domestic reasons, and will lead the country into battle against the Marxist-Islamist Alliance without fear a day after the election. Of course, if our civilian leaders fail us, there is always the military.

156 NuclearTinkerbell

"Better yet, MUSLiner: a sensitive, halal, flight that specializes in the comfort and safety of its passengers, complete with prayer time alerts and halal meals and sex segregated passenger compartments, might be the answer to this difficult problem. No infidels allowed! We can't harass you, so we will shun you! Have your own flights! Try to keep em in the skies! We dare you!"

LOL, but, well thought out. Perhaps it will come to that. No problem on my end.

Has anyone thought that 12:28 may have been the rescheduled time or the time when it actually took off?

Just a possibility.

Throbert: Flight 327 is like the Batman TV show: Same bat time, same bat channel, EVERYDAY.

Yes, I KNOW.

The point, though, is... well, see for yourself by doing a Google search on "flight 327" AND "June 29."

Or "flight 327" and "syrians"

Or "flight 327" AND "Federal Air Marshals"

And, I urge you, go to the CAIR site and enter "Syrian" into their search engine and see what happens. (Remember, this took place over two weeks ago and the Arab men who were detained and questioned turned out to be completely innocent of any wrongdoing. Wasn't there a Sherlock Holmes story in which the solution hinged on the observation that a guard dog hadn't barked when he should've?)

Jihadi air:

Send them over the ocean, with egyptian pilots on DC-10 "Groundhogs"

This story is incredible. Even if it is a hoax (it wouldn't surprise me either way), there are still big time holes in our security and we value not hurting anyones (the CAIR crowd) feelings over saving lives.

This reminds me of the first flight I took after September 11th. It was about month later and I was flying to DC. A young kid sits down next me and I notice that he's eyeing everyone coming down the aisle, just like I am. We were in the front row (Southwests, so it wasn't first class) right near the door. I got to talking to him and found out he was a Marine heading back to duty after on emergecy leave. I immdediately felt better...no one was getting near that cockpit door if he and I had something to do with it and we would have.

If this story is true I hope everyone realizes it's up to us to defned ourselves. They want to kill us and I promise, if they try to kill me, I'll return the favor. It's an attitude we all have to have, it's the only thing this animials understand.

I am flying out to Vegas next month and I promise my fellow passangers, I'll stand with you. And I'll do it BEFORE they attack. Behavior like this must be challenged. I don't care if there are FAMs on board, as soon as they started milling about the lavortory and leaving things behind something had to be done. And when they jumped up when the seatbelt sign comes on, I am up to and rallying my fellow Americans cause it was time to Roll.

How quickly we've forgtten. It'll be the death of thousands more, I am affraid.

I don't understand this article. John Kerry has said Bush has exaggerated the threat of terrorism. This blogger should just relax.

#143 Pete(Detroit)

Very scary.

#172 {NY Nana}

Did I mention a {{{{NY Nana}}}?

If we would simply wake up (not likely) and follow in the path of those who have dealt with this before us, we would fly with less prozac.

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. When this country has gone crazy enough to bring up the fact that some of the ammunition used in Iraq was supplied by the (damned) Israelis....well, what can I say.

BTW, hope the family is OK and moving along in the grieving process. I have said a few prayers your direction.

TO: The Bruce
RE: Which Are We Talking About Here?

"Of course, if our civilian leaders fail us, there is always the military." -- The Bruce

Starship Troopers? Or Seven Days In May?

RE: Play'n Possum

"...praying that W is playing possum for domestic reasons, and will lead the country into battle against the Marxist-Islamist Alliance without fear a day after the election." -- The Bruce

It could well be that that is his plan. Four more years, in which to clean up the Iranian and North Korean situations.

That war-time surge of our naval assets could be a exercise to prepare for the latter.

Considering the timing, vis-a-vis elections, NK nuke development, it's highly plausible.

Yeah, the face-value scenario is China-Taiwan, but the Korean peninsula is short cruise from there.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

#180 Throbert McGee

So what's your point?

OT

Has anyone heard from Paul of Arabia. It's more than a month now since I've seen any postings from him.

#94 dexter green,

Sorry to take so long. I had other things that had to be delt with. (Don't ask, won't tell)

I am a San Dan (third degree) Black Belt in Isshinryu Karate and a Saligan Tagapagturo in Arnis (roughly Second Degree Black Belt, though the ranks are not exactly equivalent). I also practice Baugua and Tai Chi, as well as some kung fu. And some jujitsu, Torite Jitsu pressure point fighting, and some other things.

I really have to go.

Goodnight, Guys and Dolls.

#160 Isaiah Sellers:

she describes them speaking Arabic to each other, yet at one point, she writes, "he ... mouthed the word No".

That struck me, too. Maybe he shook his head. Unless she was taking notes, I'd be surprised if she got every detail correct. If I'm telling someone something that happened to me I don't always remember the exact order things were said, for example.

I tend to think this actually happened, but Throbert's point is that w/o corroboration, this could be Munchausen type stuff.

Have a hard time believing this one is a hoax -- she didn't hedge her bets by employing vague Michael Moore-ish generalizations.

Oh yes she did:

The next day, I began searching online for news about the incident. There was nothing. I asked a friend who is a local news correspondent if there were any arrests at LAX that day.

Note that she doesn't say "I asked my friend Kathy Anchorperson, who is a correspondent at KBBL News Channel 7"

And again:

Through a series of events, The Washington Post heard about my story. I talked briefly about my experience with a representative from the newspaper.

Just "a representative" -- not a name of a Washington Post reporter who could confirm or deny that he/she was following Annie Jacobsen's lead, if asked.

Forgive me if somebody else already brought this up; I haven't read through all 180+ comments, but...

When the seat belt sign is on and these clowns start jumping up to go to the bathroom, why didn't the air marshalls or the flight attendants tell them to sit down? I thought you HAD to sit down when the seat belt light is on.

And for that matter, if the FAs and the AMs aren't doing anything, I myself would just sit up and say, "Hey, pal, siddown. The seat belt light's on. See if you can hold it for five freakin' minutes."

Toilet er,.....John Kerry does not have a 'security' plan. He only has a mouthful of inane meaningless whirled peas. If you notice if a commentator brings up the subject, he bypasses it with nonspeak. Otherwise you'll have noticed this is not aggressively queried by the journalist that interview him.
He talks about rolling back the tax cut the middle class recieved last year and how we'll be safer with him as president because Bush/Hitler was exaggerating the danger of being attacked again. After all, it is just a police action

Throbert McGee (#126)

I honestly don't know. I don't think it's a hoax but then I didn't think the anti-Semitic attack on that woman in Paris was a hoax either.

Things that didn't ring true:

1. Flight attendant tells passenger there are air marshalls on board--an absolute no-no.

2. FA asks passenger to not only write down a description of the passenger, but to pass it to her--why? Because it would be "suspicious" if she wrote it down. What, she can't go to the galley and write it down? And why the hell does she need a written description?

3. FBI agent who interviews passenger happens to be holding the Syrian passports? Riiiight. The guy who's collected all the passports is also the guy who's interviewing the passenger?

4. Finally, 14 Syrians with one-way tickets on a plane to LAX would tip off even the most clueless DHS officials, and it doesn't sound like that happened here.

I'm not saying this didn't happen, just that parts of it seemed designed to heighten the dramatic effect. The first time I read it I was freaked out, but the second time I read it--more skeptically--I noticed more things that seemed just...well, not right.

But, god knows this story is freaky enough that I really do not WANT it to be true. I certainly would never get on a plane with 14 Middle-Eastern guys aged 20-40, that's for sure.

Take a long, hard look at the scary terrorist. He was beaten to a pulp with his own shoes and subdued with a belt by French people!?! If the French can do it, well . . .

Use your seat cushion/cum flotation devices/cum weapon shields and rush your bad guys. Be merciless. If, by chance *oops* they were legitimately milling by the bathrooms with suspicious packages, making throat cutting signals, and spending too much time in the little terrorist boys' room, you can always offer to by him a beer after you apologize for you "overreaction".

Since he won't want to share a beer with a kufr, consider him a terrorist again immediately and finish the job when no one's looking.

#193 MightyClaw:
You raise a good point.

OTOH, you've never been on an El Al or Arkia flight, have you? Do you remember when there was that near-miss of the missile on the Arkia flight from Kenya and the news showed a video shot by one of the passengers as they were escorted back into Israeli airspace by Israeli fighter jets? Despite the situation--and despite the fact that this took place just after the suicide bombing at the hotel in Kenya--I couldn't help laughing out loud when I saw the flight attendant trying to get the passengers to stay seated...

Maybe the "Deranged Owl" writes freelance magazine articles under a nom de plume

NuclearTinkerbell, LOL. Your post reads like a How To manual.

Maybe the "Deranged Owl" writes freelance magazine articles under a nom de plume

Nah, there's no mention of Charles in the story.

zulubaby:

One of these flights I am going to get my wish and beat the crap out of a couple of terrorists. I can feel it. (I just hope they're really terrorists.)

;)

#185 Sarah D

{{{{{{{{{Sarah D}}}}}}}}} back at you!

Thanks so much. It is hard to imagine that it is a month. The parents and sister are in therapy, but we all worry so much for the sister...

We have been taking care of one granddaughter, the 2 year old, who had Coxsackie, and now seems to have some problems that may be related, and Wednesday, the 4 year old, whose Mummy was in Washington, on business. Due to the rains here, my poor daughter in law was delayed for hours.

You are so right in what you posted...I have said it so many times; here, in the metro NY area, where 9/11 had such horrific effects, too many are 'forgetting' just who did it to us. I think it is denial, and this is what so scares me re the 2 johns...may G-d help us all. I can just imagine them blaming the President for that plane that landed. Has anyone seen an update?

#194 Quark 2

Spot on...why are so many otherwise sensible people so stupid about this?????

To even contemplate the 2 unflushed johs winning is unthinkable. They must be defeated if we are to survive.

The hoax theory:

OK, I was on a flight about 5 years ago. My daughter was 4 and had to go potty. Florida to Minnesota. The bathroom was occupied....occupied.....occupied....occupied....

I finally (spurred on by a dancing 4 year old) knocked lightly on the door. At LEAST 45 minutes have passed now. Ten minutes later a man emerged from the bathroom, looked straight at me, and said "Did you knock on the door?" I said "Yes, there are about 20 people, including children (by that time) waiting." He replied, "Fuck you you ****, I stayed in there longer after you knocked you stupid ****." In front of my four year old and all the other kids waiting. Come to find out, he had been a pain in the ass the entire flight....wouldn't put his seat up, wouldn't put his phone down, wouldn't put his seatbelt on.

Security was waiting when we got off the plane. While they were talking to me, I saw the jackass walk away.

Geez, wonder why I drink?

Heed the words of our host, people:

"We should not be too complacent about our ability to resist if we find ourselves in a hijack situation, oh lizardoids. As much as we admire the passengers of Flight 93, we must not underestimate the enemy’s ability to learn from their mistakes and exploit our weaknesses."

Brains will ALWAYS conquer brawn. It's best that WE remember this concept, because the terrorists live and breathe it everyday. They're fighting against the Great Satan, with the invincible American military. They are working to destroy us, in the face of our military threat, and our economic might. They are fanatical murderers, but they are not stupid.

A bomb of sufficient size placed in the forward bathroom of any airliner would destroy the plane. There would be no chance to resist with any Flight 93-style heroics at that point. The death of everyone on flight would be a foregone conclusion. We cannot allow this to happen, at all costs. Bravado notwithstanding, as Americans under threat we MUST be smarter than that.

Those people who posted here saying to interrupt these men in the midst of their plans - that is the right track to take. As history has rightly proven, the government cannot be expected to protect everone everywhere at all times. There will be failures, bureaucratic ineptitude, and outright political correctness in the face of certain death. Red blooded American men and women cannot stand for that. You might fight for yourself. The government will always fail you.

As for the strategy behind the terrorists' plans - it's nearly perfect. Given the government-imposed constraints on adequate security, as well as their willingness to create a bomb mid-flight, they might never be stopped unless American citizens rise up to defend themselves. Importantly, that point in time must be EARLY. If they create the bomb before anyone intercepts them, then it's probably already too late.

Of course, it'd be nice if the government decided to help us in the face of this threat. I'm very thankful for the military's ongoing efforts right now to kill as many as these people as possible. And occasionally, you'll get a sane bureaucrat or government worker that comes up with a good idea or shows a willingness to do his job right. But the obvious flaws that can be exploited TODAY shows that smarts have not won out in the policy arguments. Political correctness itself is institutional insanity. That such madness has become national policy is highly disturbing.

It's one thing to read Ms. Jacobsen's report and be afraid. It's another to read it and be angry.

It's time to get angry.

To #130, Kafir--how about picking screeners at random,
and making them take a flight?
It sure would be an incentive to do a thorough job.

As to hoax or not, I looked on both Pprune and the
airliners.net forums, and didn't see any discussion of
this.
Usually if something untoward happens on flight, they
seem to know about it.

NuclearTinkerbell, LOL!! I hope so too but either way, at least you'll get it out your system ;-)

Charles,

Thank you for posting this. It scared me straight. A good reminder of what this is all about. A reminder to avoid certain flights, regardless. To be vigilant. Make the authorities aware before I board.

And people....people.... DETROIT!

You All: They are NOT going to do ANYTHING much..most of the time..So for men..A Belt is a good thing to be on a plane with. For women ONE thing to take on the plane with you..is HI HEALED SHOES..SPIKE SHOES....Walk to the line where you check in in your soft flats..and THEN...change them into Spike Heals. Very handy IF you think you might need something to protect your own self with.

I would say..put on a heavy belt AND wear spike shoes..AND a few other things. This cause most people will have to protect themselves. No one will do it for them.

Trying to figure out how to get TABASCO Sauce on..and a delivery system right about how...Hmmmm...I bet I can figure it out.

They (State Dept and Airlines)are too scared to confront these people..theve had a visit from JAMES ZOBGY..who threatens them constantly calling any questioning of Arabs on Airplanes as: FLYING WHILE ARAB...(bad profiling donchaknow)

IF anything happens to you or your loved ones on Airplanes: Knock on James Zogbys DOOR..HES directly responsible.

Completely creepy. Couldn't they have at least locked the bathroom doors.?

I fly 4 or 5 times a year to Fla. from the Midwest, and have learned to count between the person pulled out for a full search and the next person pulled out. It's so predictably the same. Every third person, every fifth. You have to be an idiot not to figure it out.

I felt safer leaving Gatwick in London than I ever have on an American carrier. We're still not serious about who gets on planes.

#205 Sydney

Amen. Couldn't have said it better myself!!!!!!!

Goodnight all.

Well I dont believe this is a hoax, this lady is not some anonymous voice speaking from a no name website. Apparently she is believable enough to be able to be published from the Wall Street Journal site.

I was struck by the impossibility of stopping between 15-20 Trained men from taking over the plane. Sure I would get up and fight but I fear it would be useless, and yes I am a Shodan having done Judo since I was 2 years old....though I did stop a long time ago. I am still in shape.

Yes I also agree that it might have been a good idea to have gotten up and into their faces asking questions.

What worries me beyond the rest is the PC bullshit.

Pierre

I just read this article and remembered something I heard on the news over the holidays. They were concerned that hijackers would bring a plane down over a city on the flight path. They know that if they deviate from the flight plan, F16s will be there in minutes. So they looked at the flight path for Paris-LAX and found that it goes directly over Las Vegas. There had been threats against Las Vegas, so some were surmising that they might try to bring a plane down there.

So I did some Googling and found the Great-Circle flight path from Detroit to Los Angeles. Here it is:

DET-LAX Flight Path

(If the link doesn't work, do a Google on "flight paths," and check out the first hit.)

What I see is that the DET-LAX flight path goes directly over Chicago (probably about 250 miles into the flight), and also directly over the Hoover Dam and Las Vegas at the end of the flight.

This is all guesswork, but I'm thinking that I'm not the only one who realized which major cities this flight flew over.

I'll add my 2 cents that while some things don't entirely add up (14 ME passport carrying passengers with one way tickets not being watched like hawks) - I would be surprised if there weren't any recce being done on airlines.

After 9/11 there were reports that came out of people, including actor James Woods, observing behavior that seemed to be not only suspicious, but a precursor to the 9/11 attacks.

It would be like our officials to feel a small team of federal air marshalls to be able to respond to issues - but a team of 14 against 2 would stack the odds. Also a concern is the comments in the article to try to assemble and IED inflight.

Frankly, I travel more than a fair amount, and still don't have a comfort level with the degree of security that is being practiced here. Combine this with the assinine rules against profiling - and we are open to more attacks - maybe not successfully taking command of airliners - but bringing them down which would be almost as good to a terrorist.

There are still reports that AQ has obtained suitcase nukes and probably have smuggled some into the US either via container or across the Canadian or Mexican borders. My concern is that the longer the cells are planning, the longer there are weapons that these cells have access to, the more likely any plot will be uncovered. It comes down to a case of using the resources and assets or risk losing them.

With this, its inconceivable that the enemy will wait indefinately or fail to use multiple assets at once in a mass style attack to maximize impact, terror, and confusion.

We all have to be vigilant.

I don't know if this story is true or not, but I know one thing: There is no way I'm boarding on a plane with 15 ME-looking men. 5 is too much.

My theory is that this is not quite a hoax, not quite completely true. This woman perhaps noticed something suspicious on a flight (like an ortho shoe not being scanned), thought it was absurd, and thought she'd write something a bit over the top--but containing only things that could actually happen--to get people to see how many flaws exist in our security. Not unlike that kid who smuggled notes into the bathrooms on planes--he wanted people to see how unsafe the airlines are. I wouldn't be surprised to see, in a day or two, a note from this author saying something like "well, it's not actually true, but everything in there could have happened given lax DHS regulations."

Well, I guess we'll know tomorrow, since Dave Adams really is a public affairs spokesperson for FAMS, and I'm sure his phone has been ringing off the hook for confirmation of the story.

Fly Allah Airlines and see the after world.

My advise is to board late, count the number of Jihadists on board, and get another flight.

If the security system is faulty, take matters into your own hands. Don't take chances.

#218

I prefer to be the first to board so I can observe everyone getting on the plane and what they do when they first get on.

I fly at least once every 2 weeks around the country (and to Asia and Europe occasionally) for business, and I can tell the weird ones immediately. You start noticing the smallest things if you look carefully. Like brand-new carry-on suitcases with seemingly nothing in them (sketchy), people who avoid making eye contact with anyone, or ME-looking guys who treat the flight attendants with contempt. It all happens if you look out for it.

I make a point to try make small talk with sketchy looking people to try to get a gauge on them, or at the very least, let them know that I'm aware of them and that I'll be watching them.

Well, if you're on a flight with a team of hijackers there's only one thing to remember.....

When death is certain, nothing matters but style.

Make 'em pay on your way out.

Orion

#197 nucleartinkerbell

This article on the beeb site is what I get the shudders from.

He was born and brought up in Bromley, a London suburb (although it is Kent, it is the largest London Borough)...where we stay wih friends of mine.

They live in a lovely area, and even there, the increase of the presence of the RoP is startling.

He went to school in Blackheath, which is nearer the Thames and Greenwich, a good half hour's drive from where we stay..Blackheath is a nice area. I imagine that having a father away, in prison, was not the best way to grow up.

Reading the article, his path as a youthful offender, and then the prison system, and his conversion, mirror what is happenng here...scary.

I am certain that a more sophisticated Richard Reid is out there, as I type, practicing.

G'nite, all.

Folks we have Clowns running the program....

We are at WAR and the players mock it.

I rode with Spetnaz 'Soccer Players' to Pearl Harbor....

The attendents boozed them up. If they were soccer players, I'm transgender.

WAKE UP...IF IT LOOKS...WRONG IT IS WRONG...

Our guys are playing by the rules in a no rules game!

HFS, people.

I'm supposed to fly to Sacramento at the end of August, from NYC.

ON NORTHWEST AIRLINES.

Why the fukkkkk didn't we hear about this in the "news"?????

Can we sue/kill the networks for not WARNING US ABOUT THIS????

Just yesterday, an idiotarian said to me, "They won't do the same thing twice!"

If I see a shitload of [bigoted word]s getting on any plane I'm boarding, screw the money. I'm getting OFF.

Folks, I just sent that article link to EVERYONE in my email list. EVERYONE.

Including the freeking stinking idiots with their heads in the sand and their fannies in the air, waiting to be serviced.

I'm livid.

You know, we ALL need to send this to our congressmen. That this kind of absolutely terrifying shit is allowed to go down without even being mentioned in the freeking news, without our "representatives" doing bugger-all about it, while our mortal enemies lick their fangs and make their pacts with Satan is OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!

#223 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)

Shit load of [bigoted word]s. LOL I love it.

That would make an excellent song title.

I'm a leftist,
I got my rights
I'm gonna whine
About my plight

I can't love my life
I hate my self and my country
I got no warm fuzzies
I guess I'll just have to French kiss
A shit load of [bigoted word]s.

(Repeat till you puke)

What should be done is institute two simple rules even the PC crowd can't argue with:

1) You cannot get up out of your seat while in flight, except to go to the bathroom, and then only when cleared by the flight attendant. No waiting in line, just take a number.

2) The bathroom gets searched in between each use.

PW, I cant' sleep. Was knackered until I read this, then my hair stood on end and it won't lie down again.

I flew from NY to Atlanta just a month after the WTC massacre. For the first time, I felt claustrophobic being pent up in a plane cabin. Prayed a lot, too.

Whether this actually happened or not, I know our enemies are always probing our (very flimsy) defenses. So if is isn't this crowd, it's another gang.

I didn't know the story about the woman being attacked in Paris was a hoax. What happened?

It's a hoax. Annie Jacobsen is a creative writer.

You'll also want to look at the photograph on her
personal website, and compare it to the photograph for her previous story at Women's Wall Street.

Looking forward to the editors' explanation. If this really is a hoax, somebody's an asshole.

Throbert McGee- I'm not saying it did or didn't happen. If the proof of something is coverage on the news, then hardly anything happens. An airline is the number oneemployer in my county (or at least it was, they keep getting smaller). There are few stories about wierd airplane incidents...

When I finished reading the article, I thought it would be interesting to see if there are any websites advertising a U.S. tour by a Syrian band. I've only poked-around a little, but I did find something about a Syrian band that is(?) was(?) touring the US to promote a "let's all hold hands and sing the Coke anthem" peace message. It doesn't have the right number of people, and one is a woman (and I don't think a hippie-peace-band would be booked at a casino), but perhaps there are others. Again, I've only done a very cursory search...

#228

Do you think, just by chance, that of the 6 billion or so people in the world, there might just be two Annie Jacobsens on the internet?

I mean, the chances are admitedly slim, what with Annie and Jacobsen being such uncommon names and all.

Uh, #228, did it ever occur to you that there might be more than one "Annie Jacobsen" in this glorious nation of ours?

I also googled her name and turned up the same sites you did (see my post above, #165); but I never would have dreamed they all represented the same woman.

#231 and #232, Two writers named Annie Jacobsen, you mean.

And, yes, I had the thought that there might be more than one person -- even more than one writer --with that name. It also strikes me that it may be the same Annie Jacobsen, and that she generally writes fiction, but that she also sometimes writes nonfiction.

But it does seem a little odd that not one newspaper -- he says, in anticipation of newspaper stories to come -- has picked up any mention of this fairly extraordinary story?

Throbert -

the Arab men who were detained and questioned turned out to be completely innocent of any wrongdoing.

I don't necessarily trust the fact that they were "clean," is any indication of innocent intentions, if this story is true. It could be that , if true, they're now on a list, but they didn't have enough "evidnce" to prosecute them. Between CAIR, SCOTUS, Dems, congress, MMM, etc - almost nothing short of actually slitting someone's throat is reason enough to "inconvenience" someone, let alsone try them.

"Are you from the police?"
"No Ma'am. We're musicians."
"We're on a mission from God."

- The Blues Brothers

#338 doubtitverymuch

I checked those links, and I really don't think those pictures are of the same person. I say this as someone who spends far too much time poring-over photos on the Awful Plastic Surgery website.

#220 orion - I have AIDS and some sharp teeth...

...of course it takes 10 yrs or so to hit, but hey it would freak some jihadi out (and maybe disorient him a bit), to have some big, AIDS-enriched, gay American take a bite for Jesus.

As someone who used to spend a certain amount of time poring over photos on online personals sites, I'll go ahead and argue lamely that, hey, pictures can really vary against actual appearance...

Anyway, maybe not. This might be wishful thinking, but I'm going to bed still hoping its a hoax.

About 2 yrs ago, an Arab walked passed me, and whispered "cluck-cluck" (like a chicken). I am normally afraid of appearing "racist", but I screamed, in broad daylight, on the main drag, "Hey Abdul, are you a TERRORIST?!?" VERY LOUD. I am normally a very mild and meek person, but 9/11 helped me to overcome a lot.

It was one of the creepiest things...

We'll find out soon enough whether there's any truth to this thing. I, for one, believe her. She made too many falsifiable assertions. She'd have to be a complete imbecile to think she could lie about something like this and get away with it.

Cluck-cluck? What is that, some kind of Arabic come-on?

I think if one gets up and starts getting in the face of passengers, yelling, telling them to get away from the toilet, that you will be facing federal charges on landing.
It is a double -bind. We want to call attention to goofies and odd behavior, but the way the pc's have loaded the
system, it is the pax that get arrested.
I think that the flight was to be crashed into some structure, or place. The passengers were not asleep but watching, no matter how scared they were. The splodeys called it off.
I work in the travel business and see passports and visas from around the world. In this type of vacation travel, I see very few Middle-east Passports. All the guests from these countries have brand new U.S.Passports!!!! We need some fresh faces in DHS and SEc travel depts.
The aisle seats shoud have arm-rests that lift. I am wedged into the seat as it is. Be a lot easier to defend or attack if we could spring out of the seat into the aisle.

Andrew Sullivan is now linking to Jacobsen article.

Since guys like Hugh Hewitt, Michael Medved, and Dennis Prager all read Instapundit, Sullivan, and LGF, they'll soon be talking about this on their shows. I wouldn't be surprised if Jacobsen is invited on to go over her experience. And then the truth will out, one way or the other.

# 144 dexter green:

BUT there is a very real psychological impediment to being the first to speak up.

The Theory of Group Dynamics. Every planeload of pasengers contans divergent groups of people, and they react differently as a whole. Put one Iron Fist on a flight, and the reaction of the group would be different than from a plane full of Catholic nuns. As you say, there is the fear to be first to act (or die), but also the first to be afraid to look like a horse's ass among strangers (not that I think that should matter). Plus, the fear of causing such a ruckus as to be subject to arrest oneself. But, net net sum sum, I agree that it is the PC BS of the TSA in not admitting who wants to take down our airliners, not profiling them properly, and not searching/questioning them thoroughly.

Screw CAIR, and and any other muslim civil rights group. My right to live is more important than their right to be civil, which we know they cannot be.

Those who are floating the theory that this is a "hoax" probably haven't flown much. Stories like this, virtually none of the hundreds (thousands?) of in-flight irregularities every year, simply don't get reported. I saw similar weird behavior on flights into/out of DCA just weeks after 9/11. The flight attendants rarely do shit to enforce the rules (in my experience).

I have no difficulty believing that a FA told a scared passenger not to worry because there were sky marshalls on board, even if there were not.

As to the even more bizarre theory that this story is a government plant to keep us on our toes ... {sigh}. Ethnic/religious profiling is the worst crime out there - even worse than hijiacking a plane apparently. Does any rational person believe that the government would plant a story about arabs doing a dry run?

This one thinks not.

Cheesus, why are you repcons getting so worked up? Do you just hate sitting next to brown people on airplanes? There's no such thing as terrorism. Michael Moore said so. They were probably Halliburton plants, setting us up so that Chimpy McDeathwhore can send us to war against Syria to enrich his oil buddies.

/LLL

One other thing:

About the terrorist mouthing the word "no". Did he mouth "no", or did he mouth an Arabic word that to an English speaker would have looked like "no"? I've been sitting here immersed in Arabic speakers for the past month, and a surprising amount of English creeps into their speech, to the point that I wouldn't be at all surprised if he really did mouth "no".

The finger across the throat - was that an indication that the operation was aborted, or was it an indication that the last phase of preparations had been completed and "had this been a real emergency" instead of a rehearsal there would now be a gaping hole in the plane, or a functional bomb with which to hijack the plane? Since the terrorists were "clean" according to the PC morons who questioned them, I suspect the latter.

Her story is entirely credible.

It is very reminiscent of the practice run that James Woods experienced 6 weeks before 9-11. Here is a link to the transcript of the interview where he explains what happened:
[Link: prisonplanet.com...]

#249 Jiving

Yes, which makes me think the next atrocity is imminent.

Well, I don't think I will be flying Northwestern anymore, the airline that terrorists love to fly. If that seems unfair I can only say that we need to start somewhere in this country. If change happens it will be because of economic incentives. If people stop flying Northwestern because of this terrifying flight it will inspire change in ALL of the industry.
I can only imagine how angry the people on this flight must have been. It is just insane that this was allowed to happen.
No more flights on Northwestern.

Lileks saw the story, too.

I tell you, something like this happens on a big scale – lots of planes dropping out of the sky, half the country is going to ask for detention camps. All because we didn't dare delay or inconvenience self-professed bands of Syrian "musicians" because it might suggest we were (gasp) dispositionally suspicious of a dozen Syrians clutching violin cases. Is profiling a good idea? Read the piece, put yourself on that plane before you answer the question.

Reminds me that Norman Mineta refuses to profile Middle Eastern men because when he was a boy he was sent to a Japanese internment camp and someone took his baseball glove. Oh, the injustice of it all.

(The Soviet Union) would nuke us as a last resort, because that meant the end of everything - power, caviar, liquor, nice cars, good dentists, dames, those nice little cigarettes with the gold bands around the filters?

Our present enemy will nuke us as soon as they can, because it means heaven, period.

I hate this; God I hate this. But I don’t have any longing for normalcy because normalcy was a delusion, a diaphanous curtain draped over the statue of Mars. Nor do I want a time out, a breather, an operational pause. I want to cut to the chase. I want Iran in the hands of its people and leaning to the West again, I want Lebanon independent of Syrian rule, I want Syria isolated and cowed, Arafat dead and buried in the land of his birth – or Paris, symbolically – and the Saudi Civil War done and over with pragmatists in power. I'd like this all tomorrow please.

The writer of the article is obviously not the same person as the creative writer, who is a Jungian therapist in Canada and is at least 20 years older, judging from her pic and bio, than the young business journalist who wrote the article.

Well, I just emailed the Urban Legends page. They usually do a good job of fact-checking, although I'm guessing it will take some time. I usually check their What's New page every few days, so if I see them post something I'll link it to one of the active threads.

Probably after six other people already did so :-)

I have a friend who never flies without a ham sandwich anymore. If anyone tries any funny stuff, she intends to rub it on him and say, "You've touched pig flesh. Forget about the virgins, Ahmed."

Pax in similar situations could simply rub the ham all over the latch, door, and bathroom fixtures, and announce same to the brainwashed Islamists on-board. They can't get in the bathroom if they can't touch the door.

# 255 Furious J:

My thought right after 9/11 was to put cute little piglets in the passewner seating area on all planes. It would make the kiddies happy, and it would make our enemies angry. What a win/win siituatiion. Who knows, maybe we can even train sniffer pigs?

Moments after I heard/read about the events of 09/11, the worst thing that kept coming back to me, time and time again, was *the people on the planes, why didn't they stop the terrorists?*

I wasn't there, I realize, nor was anyone now living there, so it's impossible to know the second-to-second happenings on the three flights, as they took place, and what travellers/passengers/crew did or didn't do to take actions. But, something has always -- I mean, always -- tugged at me about that day, and that was, how most people do what they're told and try not to make 'noise' or otherwise, in public.

I've often thought that if I'd been on any of those flights, I'd have certainly either survived or died trying, and wrote about that many times on a few sites on 09/12, only to find many cautionary comments by people who identified as airline employees, related, advising people about all the expectations at that time for "peaceful travelers" and use of public flights by consumers. Meanwhile, I continued to write that times had changed and the old rules no longer applied. It seemed then and it seems now -- this article reminds me just how much -- that we Americans, especially, have to now be alert and be able and willing to take actions at a moment's notice, if there's the obvious need to do so, public flight or no.

Last thing is, I also think, as in, this is a completely intuitive best guess, but I've always thought that the male passenger(s) who lost their lives first on those flights (09/11) were undoubtedly people who saw the events first and tried to yell out. So, just saying here, best time to act isn't after you've worried what people are going to say, but when you've made the observation and seen what's what. I don't suggest violence, but I do suggest that the best time to act -- when you perceive impending violence and there's no escape possible -- isn't after the fact.

Thanks to an "up at the crack of dawn" five year old I don't see these articles until the morning after. *sigh*

Right after 9/11 my son in law and a few other passengers wrestled and subdued a man who attempted to ignite his briefcase (very similar to the shoe bomber) on a FL - NY flight. My daughter, badly shaken but still flying on an adrenalin high, called from the airport to tell me to watch the news. Nothing. NOT A WORD, and believe me, we looked for days.

I know everyone here is brave and would fight if they thought their plane was being hijacked. The thing is, the terrorists know that TOO. You may not get a CHANCE to fight. They aren't going to tell you they are assembling bombs. They will just do it. Everyone noticed because they were arabs. Imagine if they all looked like young businessmen, traveling with their blond wives and a couple of kids. Their activities could well be invisible to other passengers. They might just appear as people going about their business on the plane until, KABOOM!

Being part of a group of people - in a plane, cruiseship, office building, ball game, big city - is dangerous these days. Not only do we have to keep our eyes open, it appears, thanks to a dummed down PC world, we're left to defend it with our bare hands, too.

Last thing, I just noticed that link (^^) for the James Wood story and wanted to share that Woods has an I.Q. that is way up there in the genius range -- not modestly, but overtly a genius level intellect Woods has (actor or not).

So, you know, some people do perceive the moments of danger a tad sooner and more accurately than most and that's about what I was trying to suggest here.

Best not to try to "reason it out of them" when the canary indicates there's, well, bad air about.

Reading this, and this is a little off-topic, but how would we have reacted if TWA 800 would have happened in July of 2002, rather than July of 1996? My father was a mechanic for TWA at JFK in this time (he was working days at the time, this plane was handled by the Twilight crew) and he said that the FBI, FAA, and NTSB covered up the fact that that plane was shot down. The center fuel tank fumes would not have ignited from a spark. Plus, kerosene doesn't just "blow up", unless it's compressed (like on 9/11) or hit with a blowtorch. It has a very high flashpoint, so a spark wouldn't do much of anything except MAYBE start a fire that would be snuffed out once the oxygen ran out. In any event, I think if we were in a post-9/11 world it would have come out that a Stinger missile brought that plane down, rather than a spark.

As an aside, right after 800 went down, by father was talking with some of the Feds and they were unconvinced that the center fuel tank fumes were responsible. My father also needed to school the NTSB goons in the difference between sabotage and rats. Some of the avionics wiring was "cut" in one of the planes in for maintenance. By "cut" I mean the resident rodents and vermin chewed through the wires.

Oh fer cryin' out loud ...

Thom, at whom or what was your comment ##261 aimed?

I haven't read all of the previous posts so I don't know if it's been stated already. Air Marshalls are pretty much a given on all flights now. This, for obvious reasons, is not advertised and you will never know who they are. Also, way back at #19, Yossarian asked about cockpit door security. By law, cockpit doors are now locked in flight. This was mandated by a Special FAA regulation. So, yes, the obvious question is: "What are the pilots going to do if the bad guys start killing people in the back?" Well, they're not going to open the door for one thing. Killing 3000 people on the ground is no longer an option. I actually think that a repeat of 9/11 would be real tricky for the jihadis. You've got to contend with armed sky marshalls, pissed off "good guys", locked cockpit doors, and fighter jets willing to shoot down a known, hijacked aircraft.

However, the pessimist in me makes me think there are much easier ways of bringing down a passenger jet. I don't think we need to talk about those...

Lady of Shalott and Baldy - thanks for the tips.

I like the "Hey - ARE YOU A TERRORIST?" shouting idea. That's good.

& "[bigoted word]s" - yeah if there are too many [bigoted word]s on board messing my comfort level - I am the one who is getting off the plane.

I imagine some uber-lib politician will soon make it illegal for anyone to do just that. Teddy Kennedy's bill: "Too many Muslim men on board? tough. You are a racist if you want to get off the airplane and so you better sit down *hicup* and shut up *hickup* for you are stomping on the rights of these fine Muslim men, and there is nothing worse than being labeled a racist by a liberal senator."

#262 cba

Oops, sorry - at #260, wherein it is hypothesized that Flt 800 was shot down with a Stinger.

#263 Smitty

Also, way back at #19, Yossarian asked about cockpit door security. By law, cockpit doors are now locked in flight.

By law? I didn't know it was law. At any rate, if it is a law, it is ignored by many. I fly regularly and have lost count of how many times the cockpit door is left open while the FA's are schlepping caffeine to the flight deck, or the captain has to take a leak.

Sitting in first class (or even in the first row or two of coach), noticing that there were several creepy Swedish grandmothers on board (LOL), I have more than once contemplated what to do if that door left hanging open were to be rushed.

Not usually at a loss for words, but if this story is indeed true it scares the crap out of me. Not in a sense that we're going to get attacked again, because we all know we are, but in a sense that we've learned nothing about 911. The PC crap has got to stop. If you're Arab or Middle Eastern and fit the profile, you should be searched and screened, period. Too bad if you don't like it, we're just having trouble getting over 3,000 people lying at the bottom of a smoking pile of rubble.

I've worked through most of the comments, trying to figure out if this story is a hoax or not. No one seems to know for sure, yet, but more sites are linking to the story.

Can't we say, just like the anti-semitic train-attack, that even if this is a lie, it still puts forth "essential truths"? ;-P

Joking aside, I think reading the story and thinking about it did lower the threshold of when suspicious behavior will prompt me to act. I don't think that's a bad thing in times like these.

Scary stuff

I for one believe the story. Thankfully nothing happened on that flight, although it looks like a very close call.

Maybe the solution is for All non muslim passengers to have to be at the airport 5 hours early, and then during that time undergo vigorous bonding training, and plane defence tactics. The tactics would be fresh in the passenger's heads, and they would have coheisiveness necessary to fight off the terrorists.

Either that or making plane skin completely bulletproof, and then arming the non-muslim populace before the flight.

Although I believe someone earlier suggested arming the other passengers, I believe my first point would also be effective to combat the training of the muslims.

#265 Thom,

I have never seen the cockpit door left open in flight since 9/11. Although most flights I take are under three hours, that's still an impressive record.

A few weeks ago I noticed two flight attendants, standing shoulder-to-shoulder in the galley area just ahead of the first row of seats, looking back into the cabin. What gives? Then the cockpit door opened, captain went into the forward restroom--locking the cockpit door behind himself--and the flight attendants only cleared the aisle after he was locked back in the cockpit.

I don't know if that is procedure for this particular airline, but it should be used by all of them.

Regarding Terrorism vis-a-vis TWA Flight 800. I've read the contentions of those who believe that and am persuaded enough to move the needle on my Skept-O-Meter from "Whacko Garbage" to "Highly Skeptical" as to whether TWA Flight 800 was brought down by terrorists.

I'd have no hesitation in standing on up and announcing what I think if there are people that appear suspiciously coordinating together on a airplane.

Free speech right?

I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I did blog about this. If this story is true then there have been three incidents involving Northwest Airlines and suspicions of terror.

1) The plane that "accidentally" landed at Ellsworth AFB

2) This story.

3) The man with a suicide note, who was traveling from Syria. He was denied entry to his connecting flight in Minneapolis. They don't mention Northwest Airlines, but Minneapolis is their hub/headquarters.

#270 Belize042

It varies from one airline to the next, and I didn't mean to suggest that laxness is routine - just far more common than one would have thought post-9/11. There is one particularly unimpressive airline, but I hesitate to mention it here.