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-RetweetIf the Dead Could Talk

Fri, Jul 30, 2004 at 7:37:54 am PDT

If you have a lingering bad taste in your mind from last night’s disingenuous display (just to pick one example, Kerry said “judge me on my record,” then did not say one word about his 20 years of voting against every single military spending bill that ever crossed his desk), Victor Davis Hanson has a new column to clear your mental palate: If the Dead Could Talk.

For rare honesty in a dishonest age, I would prefer to return to the wisdom of those inscriptions on granite in our military resting places abroad than listen to the new global nonsense, which is as intellectually dishonest as it is dangerous in conveying the lie that ignorance, rather than evil, causes war — or that wars break out over craziness rather than the murderous intent of an aggressive party. I don’t think those asleep at St. Avold would like to hear that we fought the German Nazis and Japanese fascists the “wrong way” by relying too much on the Third and Seventh Armies, and too little on education, mutual understanding, and “getting the message out.”

Once, the Belgians in places like Wiltz and St. Vieth were not complaining about Americans “exporting democracy” — when Panzers were stopped in their countryside from renewing their murderous work. They did not believe that America needed quickly to join the League of Nations instead, or that the next election in Germany would bring them a better reprieve.

And the tens of thousands sleeping under their white marble crosses in Belgium, France, and Luxembourg from the Meuse-Argonne to Hamm would not agree that had we only been more reasonable and less bellicose we would have been more popular and liked. You see, they would not concede that millions followed Hitler because it was America’s fault in not offering the German people an alternative to barbarism. In fact, they didn’t much care why Germany hated America, only how to defeat it and then — but only then — to guide it on a new path away from its savage past.

Indeed, if our dead could rise out of their graves they would surely rebuke us for our present blasphemy — shaking their fingers and remonstrating that bin Laden and his followers, both active and passive, are no different from Hitler and the other evil killers of their own age, who deserve to be defeated, not reasoned with or apologized to, and not understood. The voices of our dead abroad murmur to us, the deaf, that a nation is liked not by being good and weak or bad and strong, but only by proving both principled and resolute.

Sleep in peace, you ten thousand of St. Avold, and let us pray that we, the smug beneficiaries of your ultimate sacrifice, may still wake up from our own slumber.

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1 Thom  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 5:39:06am
Kerry said “judge me on my record,” then did not say one word about his 20 years of voting against every single military spending bill that ever crossed his desk)

... when he bothered to show up, that is.

2 Joel  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 5:42:05am

I read this column early this morning. VDH is a Jeremiah warning us against the complacency of those who have a 9/10 view of the world. My fear is that the Bush's are notoriously poor campaigners and this Chirac clone from Massachussetts will sneak in. With a few exceptions I work with nothing but Bush haters who I think hate GW Bush more then they could ever hate Bin Laden, Saddam, Arafat, etc.

3 Condor  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 5:43:16am

Neither, though it is political blasphemy to say it these days, was it wrong of us to want to oppose communism
in Indo-China; that we failed didn't make our cause less correct. (The millions who have suffered there in Cambodia and Vietnam will tell you that.)
Kerry is considered a hero by the repressive regime in Vietnam; he is even honored in one of their musems.
The US troops who died to keep democracy a viable option in Vietnam are not so honored.

4 Thom  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 5:48:30am

Bush is giving a tremendous speech. It looks like he's going to demolish Kerry.

5 Dave the.....  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 5:48:46am

#3. And to add to that. there is Jimmy Carter talking about what ended the cold war. There are newspapers today saying what a war hero Kerry is. And on and on. It's like the left can say anything.

And this obsession with getting Frawnces approval...I just don't get it. France hates us, they have no respect for us, they want us to fall flat on our faces. And the Kerry supportors want us to kiss up to them.

I think it was yesterday here where someone said that the only time France looked supportingly at us was on 9/11, and that was because we were put in our place that day. When we fought back, then it back to hating us.

6 imtoast  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 5:53:21am

I'm trying to locate Kerry's medical records from the Vietnam War. How do I do it?

7 Windy City Kuffar  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 5:55:06am

Cabinet level position for this gentlemen please!!

8 SwampWoman  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 5:55:48am

#4 Thom...yeah, listening simultaneously and trying to give highlights into other thread. There is so much testosterone that I may be generating testicles here.

9 Thom  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 5:57:00am

#8 SwampWoman

There's a Bush speech thread now!

And please, no testicles. LOL.

10 SwampWoman  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 5:57:23am

Oh, man, he's givin' a BIG talk about personal responsibility. Something that I have been screaming at people for a long time. "If you don't like your personal circumstances, it is your personal responsibility to get the training and education to change it."

11 Model4  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:00:59am

Top shelf stuff, even for VDH. He's a good man. I also love that he rejects the smoke and mirrors game academia is infested with, where pretentious and even deceptive uses of the language are used to usurp history to promote an agenda. Anyone can read this and comprehend his powerful statements, but its accessibility does not diminsh its worth. The opposite, actually.

Can we at least drop the falsity: In the new global CNN media circus, an Arab must kill 1,000 innocents deliberately to warrant the condemnation that the world allots to a Jew who kills one Arab inadvertently.

Damn skippy.

12 Dan Patterson  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:01:02am

The living owe it to our dead defenders to hold political leaders to a very high standard. We must also ensure that the ranks of the ghost battalions are not increased because of foolish ignorance and appeasment. In their final moments the men who died in defense of their country were likely more concerned with their buddies than the constitution, and it is precisely that sense of comradarie that should bind the living citizens to the dead. We must honor their sacrifice by making sure that their loss was not in vain.

Dan Patterson
Winston-Salem, NC

13 Frank IBC  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:06:19am

#6 imtoast -

Reach down Sandy Berger's pants.

14 grayp  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:07:07am

#11 Model4

where pretentious and even deceptive uses of the language are used to usurp history to promote an agenda.

And rhetoric is no longer taught. Did you catch Kerry last night?

"I defended my country"

But he also said when he was protesting Vietnam

"How do ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

So defending his country was a mistake.

Gah. This is too easy.

BTW, I just finished reading the Nazi in Germany thread. You wuz good!

15 Beagle  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:07:18am

VDH,

In the new global CNN media circus, an Arab must kill 1,000 innocents deliberately to warrant the condemnation that the world allots to a Jew who kills one Arab inadvertently.

We are lucky that VDH has a voice in our media circus world.

I can't believe I agree with this statement because of the potential future ramificatons, but he's one hundred percent correct.

16 Frank IBC  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:12:59am

I have the feeling that this is going to be a really weird campaign.

Up to this point, the Dems' focus has been "Dump Bush", rather than "Vote for Kerry".

And the Repubs, I'm sure, can't wait to run ad after ad illustrating Kerry's flip-flops and cravenness.

I have feeling that we'll be seeing a lot more of Kerry in the Repubs' ads, than in the Dems' ads.

17 Sarah D.  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:16:08am

VDH brings up a wonderful point, and it's the one that scares me the most: The American people as a whole have lost the ability to think objectively when it comes to enemies.

After the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the American war machine went into action, with the blood, sweat, and tears of a UNITED America. Remember that the US had at that time just lived through eleven years of economic devastation. By the time we got on the bandwagon, Hitler and his axis were running full capacity. Within a few years, America was producing more than all the axis countries combined.

We had strict rationing and blatant propaganda (Loose Lips Sink Ships). Both of these things would be unthinkable in today's America. After the grinding Depression, they were forced to RATION! Can you imagine? The ACLU would be all over this...proclaiming our constitutional right to as many McDonalds hamburgers as we wish.

The combined momentum of a UNITED America is an awesome thing. I don't see it happening again, even when faced with another horrific loss of life on our soil. We have become too comfortable and too apathetic. We would rather wallow in collective guilt over made up slights to other countries and cultures than look the enemy in the eye and call a spade a spade.

Just my .02.

18 Condor  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:17:37am

# 6

You can't get Kerry's medical records from the war unless he himself authorizes it. (And he hasn't.)

19 RIP Ford  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:18:33am

#5 Dave the...

It's akin to having the kid in school who excels at everything. He continously blows the curve and his mere presence is a constant reminder that you are not as good as you think you are. Other students react to this person in various ways, based on their level of maturity and self confidence. Loathing and disgust, are the actions of an envious pupil. Respect and admiration from those more honest, and self confident and direct good natured competition from his equals. France's self importance in the world is a hollow charade, impotent and greatly over blown. They've fallen for their own propaganda. And, we in the US are a constant reminder of their 2nd class status in this global circus.

They hate us because we excel, and they do not.

It's an overly simplistic description, but, one that I feel goes a long way to describing the current France-US relationship.

20 BPP  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:23:13am

Mostly powerful stuff I thought. VDH certainly pulls no punches. My favorite passage:

Why do Muslim radicals hate Europe when Europeans have no military power, no real presence abroad, give billions away to the Middle East, despise Israel, will sell anything to anyone anywhere at anytime, and have let millions of Arabs onto their shores? Are daily threats to Europeans earned because of what Europe does — or is the cause who they are?

So true. Or this one:

Preaching that we must avoid another terrorist badlands is easy; warning that we cannot any longer tolerate a fascistic Iran, well that is another thing altogether. That raises nasty, hurtful ideas like deterrence, collective action, and, yes, that evil notion of preemption.

Also true. But VDH never asks the obvious question: just HOW can we talk about preempting Iran when Bush has destroyed the credibility of the doctrine of preemption by what has happened in Iraq. No one believes that Bush can sell military action against Iran.

On the other hand, there were some moments of ridiculousness, such as:

Yet, like Hitler's young minions, the masked men in bathrobes and machetes have not yet learned to fear the power of Western democracy that could, if it so wished — as the 10,000 resting at St. Avold have so proved — put a stop to their cowardly murdering rather quickly and thus end the Arab tolerance of these beheading fanatics.

I just find that totally unconvincing. The analogy with Nazi Germany cannot be carried that far. Presumably VDH thinks we haven't beem aggressive enough or killed enough terrorists. Maybe so, but there is just no evidence for the idea that more military action is going to sow fear in the hearts of Islamic radicals. We will prevail when Muslims themselves reach the conclusion that they are tired of supporting and/or turning a blind eye to the cancer in their midst because its got them nothing. That's why the formation in Iraq of vigilante groups is so encouraging

21 Cam  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:23:27am

#6:

Although his records weren't released, one of the doctors who treated him for a wound (for which he received a purple heart) and said that it was a sliver of rock in his arm that appeared to be the result of him firing at a dastardly Communist rock on the shore.

If you google you will probably find it.

22 Ellen  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:24:38am

I love that man!! He is one of the few sane people in a world gone crazy. Give VDH a cabinet seat please!

23 Thousand Sons  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:26:09am

#19 RIP Ford

They hate us because we excel, and they do not.

Thats not just France...its most of the planet...

24 RIP Ford  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:27:01am

#17 Sarah D.

After the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the American war machine went into action, with the blood, sweat, and tears of a UNITED America.

Be mindful that it also took 2 years of FDR preparing the people for war before the events of December 7 to evoke the response necessary. He helped shape that response with numerous fire side chats and speaches before ultimately convincing the previously isolationist public to jump into the fray. The American people were ready to fight when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.

/Just wanted to add that to your post.

25 Beagle  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:28:30am

BPP

just HOW can we talk about preempting Iran when Bush has destroyed the credibility of the doctrine of preemption by what has happened in Iraq.

In YOUR mind. I see a bad premise showing. As if any American president has been able to do anything for 40 years without universal leftist condemnation.

Just because the world is filled with America-hating socialists doesn't mean I must agree with them.

26 RIP Ford  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:30:14am

#23 Thousand Sons

Thats not just France...its most of the planet...

Correct. There is a reason why the world watches our every move.
Some countries act aloof, others compete honestly and others just loathe.

27 BPP  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:31:57am

25 Beagle

Not sure your point. MY point is that it would be politically impossible for Bush to sell military action against Iran to the AMERICAN people, let alone the rest of the world.

28 Sarah D.  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:33:07am

#24 RIP Ford

Quite right. I also think that the deprivations of the Great Depression had this country poised and willing to work for a cause. Suddenly there were jobs!

Still, I can't imagine any number of fire side chats (be they Bush or Kerry) mobilizing us in that way again.

I'm going to visit my WWII veteran Grandfather tomorrow and give him a big smooch on the cheek.

29 Frank IBC  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:35:40am

Just because the world is filled with America-hating socialists doesn't mean I must agree with them.

"Son, the most important thing in the world, is to be POPULAR."

-Homer Simpson
Episode in which Bart beheads the statue of Jebediah Obediah Sprinfield, in response to peer pressure

30 grayp  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:35:51am

#20 BPP

No one believes that Bush can sell military action against Iran.


At this moment, I agree with you. But circumstances change and please don't forget that not all military action is overt.

Maybe so, but there is just no evidence for the idea that more military action is going to sow fear in the hearts of Islamic radicals.

The point of military action is not to sow fear, it is to kill and to defeat. VDH cites the power of Western democracy in your example. I read that a bit differently than you did but I do indeed disagree with VDH on this point.

It is precisely the fear of Western democracy that is inspiring the jihadis. They are losing the argument of ideas so have taken up arms.

31 john blake  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:37:00am

Thanks Charles. That helped cleanse the palet. Blink...blink... that helped clear the eyes. I see better now. Thanks VDH.

32 Frank IBC  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:37:01am

If Bush did anything to Iran, the LLL would react like they did when Nixon bombed the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Cambodia.

33 chris_l  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:39:52am

As far as Iran is concerned - the strategy seems to be encircle Iran and then defeat them from within. If Iraq is successful in turning towards democracy - don't you think young Iranians will want the same for themselves? As it is thousands upon thousands of Shi'ia Muslims from Iran already travel to Holy sites in Iraq. Do you think they will not be able to see for themselves the differences between freedom and tyranny?

Don't you think unrest is already brewing in Iran? The Mullahs welcome Al Qaeda and with them comes their own doom.

A nuclear Iran is a great threat to Israel but it is also a threat to a free and secular Iraq.

34 RIP Ford  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:42:20am

#28 Sarah D.

Still, I can't imagine any number of fire side chats (be they Bush or Kerry) mobilizing us in that way again.

Perhaps you are right. I know I can't argue against what we are seeing on TV.
I'm still on optimist, though. I think that some things are much more ingrained into our nature as Americans then most people realize. Only time will tell.

35 Beagle  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:46:43am

#27 BPP

Not sure your point. MY point is that it would be politically impossible for Bush to sell military action against Iran to the AMERICAN people, let alone the rest of the world.

You speak for the American people? Whatever.

As if I care what the French think. Check football.

You are spewing opinion as fact.

36 BPP  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:49:07am

35 Beagle

You speak for the American people? Whatever.

I'm giving my opinion. Isn't that what we do here?

37 Sgt. Mom  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:55:34am

St. Avold... my uncle is there. Killed on the Schweinfurt raid, October 1943. All of 19 years old, but I've read his letters; he knew what it was all about.

38 AngryDumbo  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:58:16am

Bush is not the problem, he is a strong leader with a proven team. Iraq is simply NOT the "quagmire" that Democrats portrayed it to be two months ago.


That said, the DNC is prepared to dump $100 million in ad buys for September alone, add to that $130 million in anticipated ad buys from 527s such as MoveOn and ACT and you may just understand why Democrats are feeling confident despite holding such a weak hand.

Good news is that 527 cash is open to public scrutiny. We know who the big donors are, the Steve Bings and George Soros of the world.

People don't tend to like somebody trying to buy their vote. Thus, when the Rev. Al says his vote is not for sale, what he really means is that it has already been bought!!!

39 Thousand Sons  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 6:58:40am

What I hate is the modern concept of war as something that needs to be 'sold'. As if the need to defend our country is something to be hawked at a used car lot, and if our leaders cant two-step it good enough than the threat doesnt exist.

Enyos: You know what it is, this thing vengeance?

Jenny: Uncle, I have served you. I have been faithful. I need to know...

Enyos: (interrupts) To the modern man vengeance is a verb, an idea. Payback. One thing for another. Like commerce. Not with us. Vengeance is a living thing. It passes through generations. It commands. It kills.

-BTVS

40 daltec  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 7:03:04am

#34 RIP Ford -

Time wil tell indeed, but I fear I'm a tad more pessimistic than you. Many people seem to have just lost the ability to see America's deeds as right, simply put.

I sometimes listen to Hannity on the way home from work, and he sometimes has lefties on his show. Last week was some screeching nut-ball who just could NOT be brought to admit that the US ever did anything right. After repeated evasions, she was finally pinned into answering "were we RIGHT to use force to defeat Nazi Germany" with "I don't know." WTF?!?!?
And his interview with Garofalo - he asked her repeatedly if she thought America was basically a force for good in the world, and every single freaking answer was "yes, but" followed by a litany of all the wrong we have done in the world.

I have tried this test on people myself, with very similar results. You just can't get many of these people to admit that the US has done good things. It seems to be physically impossible for them. They stutter and wriggle in their attempts to avoid saying it. What IS it that prevents these people from seeing the good in the US?? Conditioning? Denial? Being dropped on the head when they were babies? It is just mystifying to me.

Hmm, might be a paper in that, hahaha!

-daltec

41 Model4  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 7:11:07am

BPP:

but there is just no evidence for the idea that more military action is going to sow fear in the hearts of Islamic radicals

Really? I know for a fact that not opposing them militarily has emboldened them. Casual tracking of current events for the last 10-20 years makes this plain as day. For comparison, how many attacks did we face from Japanese kamikaze pilots so far this year? Because fighting them militarily surely only swelled their ranks and boosted their resolve, right? And of course attacks on Israel lessened during Operation Defensive Shield, or when Israel started taking out terrorist leaders, or when Netanyahu threatened Arafat's life. Or when Khadaffi said "Screw it, here, take my WMD program. I don't want none of what Saddam just got."

No man, it's trivial to show how military force excels at getting the job done. Why you wish to imagine the opposite when the evidence screams otherwise is ultimately a personal matter. For me, the difficult task is justifying not eliminating the threat from Iran. But no matter what the freakish right-wing theocracy there does, as sure as the Sun rises in the East, there will be leftists fighting to keep the mullahs safe and secure from the "real evil" of Western democracy and the spread of human rights.

42 grayp  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 7:11:37am

#40 daltec

You just can't get many of these people to admit that the US has done good things.

It's called absolutism in the service of moral purity. Unless you are morally pure 100% of the time, you are corrupted. Their vanity requires that they protect their moral rightgeousness by insisting on the corruption.

Truly. That's all it is. Vanity.

43 BPP  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 7:13:04am

39 Thousand sons

What I hate is the modern concept of war as something that needs to be 'sold'. As if the need to defend our country is something to be hawked at a used car lot, and if our leaders cant two-step it good enough than the threat doesnt exist.

So presumably you would favor giving the President a blank check on the deployment of military force? Is that really a good idea?

Blame the Founding Fathers. They gave Congress the power to declare war and set the budget and made the President the Commander-in-chief, thereby setting up the need for the two bodies to work together.

44 RIP Ford  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 7:18:01am

#40 daltec

Perhaps it's my location that skews my public view. I live in South Texas, and amongst those I speak with I find most to be more hawkish then I. I'm talking Camel Prophet and Bigel harsh. Some of these voters are even life long Democrats. We have our nut jobs too, but they seem to live a sheltered existence in Austin. To them, the US is evil and the rest of the world in good. That has to be right, because, if there is greater evil outside of the US then there is something to actually worry about. It's easier to believe in our mischievous government as always wrong, because the consequences of understanding that they could be right is unnerving and scary to these dolts. It calls into question their entire belief system.

45 Thousand Sons  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 7:39:04am

#43 BPP

So presumably you would favor giving the President a blank check on the deployment of military force? Is that really a good idea?

Blame the Founding Fathers. They gave Congress the power to declare war and set the budget and made the President the Commander-in-chief, thereby setting up the need for the two bodies to work together.

Is that what I said?? No. Your suffering the BDS, I think. I said "our leaders", not "our president", or "our God Emperor." All our elected officials are "our leaders". And you missed my point completely. The very thought that "our leaders" (the president, congress, house of representatives, Ming the Merciless, et al.) have to 'sell' the defense of our country is ridiculous! This isnt a new car or a rotisserie chicken cooker, its the very fate of our civilization!

You said "MY point is that it would be politically impossible for Bush to sell military action against Iran to the AMERICAN people, let alone the rest of the world."

That may be so, but does that mean that Iran is not a threat?? If Bush cant shuck and jive well enough to please you, the threat becomes non-existant? Thats just foolishness.

46 Model4  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 7:41:17am

#43 BPP:

Blame the Founding Fathers. They gave Congress the power to declare war and set the budget and made the President the Commander-in-chief, thereby setting up the need for the two bodies to work together.

How does that square with your earlier statement that it's Bush's (and only Bush's, natch) fault that WMD intel didn't pan out as forecast?

I mean you are saying that Congress has responsibility in decisions of war, not to mention oversight of our intelligence and military right? Let me guess, you'll choose the school of thought that puts the conservative in the most unfavorable light based on current circumstances. Hundreds vote for war in Congress, they're utterly blameless if things go bad.

Reminds me of the magazine covers here where if things went well that week it was "Our/America." If they went bad that week? "Bush."

47 Gordon  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 7:43:26am

Boo hoo! Those meany Europeans don't appreciate all we did for them 60 years ago! Mommy, make them stop!

48 daltec  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 7:43:57am

#42 grayp -

It's that simple eh? Well maybe one day the light bulb will go off in my head, haha, but I sure am in the dark for now. Your notion of having to be 100% pure, or else you are corrupted, is just so... so... so OBVIOUS, you know what I mean? It is even a cliche - nobody's perfect! So why it is impossible for some people to accept the inevitable nasties, in pursuit of the greater good? Yet now that you mention it, I see that way of thinking in action all around me. One little misstep renders the whole enterprise unworthy. WHY?!? Maybe it is just easier for some people to write the whole thing off then it would be for them to deal with the less pleasant aspects.

49 daltec  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 7:54:32am

#44 RIP Ford, #42 Grayp -

I just got done reading the essay in a previous thread, from that person afflicted with BSD, and it did help clarify some things for me. "It calls into question their entire belief system," aptly put! "What if he is right," as the BSD person asked.

Well, I dunno, maybe one day these people will wake up and realize that no, America is not perfect, but yes, it has done a whole HELL of a lot more good in the world than bad. And even the bad was an aberration and did not reflect what we as a people are all about.

But what is more frightening to me is this refusal to identify the enemy, as VDH and #17 point out. Unless we wake the heck up, that is going to rear up and bite us hard one day, I am certain of that.

50 grayp  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 7:57:54am

#48 daltec

One little misstep renders the whole enterprise unworthy. WHY?!

Look, at the individual level this is not complicated. Think of everyone you have to deal with that buys into this crap. Tell me how many of them are smug and self-satisfied. Tell me how many know the meaning of personal humility.

The cultural hegemony of multi-culti supports the vacuity that flagellation of one's own is the highest virtue. The only exception I can think of is the feminists who still define themselves and their virtue in opposition to white males.

51 piglet  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 7:58:47am

ot? One cannot make this stuff up.:

The US authorities initially asked for guarantees from the French, including, to the indignation of the French press, a guarantee that the prisoners would be "treated humanely". The two other French inmates were not "sent home", because they may have refused to sign a paper saying they wanted to return to France.

The seventh French inmate is an Indian national who gained French citizenship by marrying a Frenchwoman on the Indian Ocean island of Réunion. His status is in dispute between the French, American and Indian governments. Paris had refused to apply formally for the extradition of French inmates because it does not recognise the legality of the Guantanamo camp. A senior police officer said the four had been granted a "voluntary, accompanied return".
30 July 2004 09:41


[Link: news.independent.co.uk...]

52 Thom  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 7:59:09am

#47 Gordon

ESAD, you piece of filth.

53 centaur  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 8:01:56am

Boo hoo! That meany VDH is using facts and historical perspective again to drive home the truth! Mommy...

54 NY Nana  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 8:21:59am

#52 Thom

nodrog™ (Quark2) is not worth your spit.

Also, to see what his poor mother has gone through

nodrog's mother

*GAZE*

With that posting, here is a well-needed laugh:

Kerry's speech inspires Dems, drinking game

Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry's acceptance speech at the Democratic national convention last night inspired Democrats nationwide and a popular drinking game, with revelers taking pulls from their beers every time Mr. Kerry referred to his military service.

Donny Timlin, a frequent patron at the T.G.I. Friday's in downtown Tulsa, Oklahoma, was one of many drinkers across the country who participated in the chugging contest based on Mr. Kerry's nationally televised address.

According to the rules of the game, participants were to take one pull from their beer every time Mr. Kerry said the word "veteran," two when he said "Vietnam," and three when he said "band of brothers."

Watching Mr. Kerry on the bar's widescreen TV, Mr. Timlin acknowledged that the drinking game was far more challenging than he originally thought it would be: "Dude's just ten minutes into his speech and I'm already wasted."

In other convention news, actor Ben Affleck was ejected from the Fleet Center in Boston after Democratic Party officials feared that his long-running losing streak at the box office might spread to the Kerry-Edwards ticket in the fall.

While party officials downplayed talk of an "Affleck curse," insiders acknowledged that the actor's presence at the convention had become an unwelcome distraction.

"Maybe it's the lingering effects of 'Gigli,' but every time Ben walked into the building the bomb-sniffing dogs went crazy," one insider said.

Finally, Sen. John Edwards retracted his statement about there being two Americas, saying that he had gotten that information from Mapquest.


Why do I think that this may be the lead-off for tonight's drinking thread? :)

55 Model4  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 8:25:34am

#47 Gordon: Yep, 60 years ago. You're as ignorant as you are hateful.

56 Thom  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 8:28:48am

#54 NY Nana

LOL. Poor Gordy's Mom.

57 Gordon  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 8:30:32am

The whole article reminds me of a nagging Mother upbraiding her ungrateful grown son.

"But I wiped your butt for five years and now you won't call me every day!"

58 Thom  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 8:32:42am

#57 Gor-don

You remind me of a piece of dog shit baking in the sun.

59 BPP  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 8:33:34am

45 Thousand Sons

Is that what I said?? No. Your suffering the BDS, I think. I said "our leaders", not "our president", or "our God Emperor." All our elected officials are "our leaders". And you missed my point completely. The very thought that "our leaders" (the president, congress, house of representatives, Ming the Merciless, et al.) have to 'sell' the defense of our country is ridiculous! This isnt a new car or a rotisserie chicken cooker, its the very fate of our civilization!

OK guess I did miss your point. Somewhat. And you missed mine. Our leaders don't have to sell the defense of our country. They're expected to defend the country. You're just equating "defending" with "going to war". The two are not synonymous. Personally I think going to war is not to be taken lightly. Any prolonged military action should require the approval of the people, through the people's representatives. And no, Bush's inability to "shuck and jive" well enought does not make Iran less of a threat. Whoever would say such a thing?

The point is that if Bush tried to convince the American people that pre-emptive action against Iran is needed, I don't the people would go along. Pre-emption is a hard sell under the best of circumstances. But its been discredited further in Iraq, and whether you want to call that Bush's fault, the CIA's fault or just bad luck, it doens't matter.

46 Model4

You raise a very good point. Oversight of the intelligence process was really bad on the part of the Congress. But at the end of the day, Congress is reliant on what people tell them.

I'm not saying the intel failures are Bush's fault. I'm not saying the war was wrong. We can debate that another time. I'm simply saying that because of the way events have unfolded, further pre-emptive military action is unlikely anytime soon under this president. If people weren't so convinced that Kerry is a French-speaking, UN-kowtowing peacenik, that fact alone might cause people to take a second look at him. The fact is, I just don't see much difference between what Bush and Kerry will do in the War on Terror. No-one has convinced me that Bush is going to be any more assiduous in the defense of the country.

60 NY Nana  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 8:39:29am

#56 Thom

I saved that thread, but forgot till a friend and I were discussing the 'problem', and I did a search, found it, and bookmarked it. I wish I knew who was clever enough to start it; I have some 'suspects' in mind...actually, I think that his actual mother (if he is not a product of autogenesis) must be in a witness protection program!

61 Paranoid Brit  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 8:41:41am

Guys, look, this is no big deal. I don't see many people who don't recognize that Fwance have been lousy allies and are serial ingrates to boot.

But that's International Politics for you. We should just move on (not MoveOn), recognize that unreliability, and factor it in. Or rather, factor them out.

Should we be, or are we crying? No. We will be in November if Kerry gets in because we'll go through the whole rigmarole of courting these arrogant bastards all over again.

Now, this is not new. It was done during the months following 9/11. We already know who will support us, who will oppose us, and who will stab us in the back. Does anyone really believe that a change in the presidency is going to have that much influence? The difference in outcome will be because a new president will be asking for different things, not because he's a Vietnam veteran.

What fundamentally changes about America when we change the administration? Zero. Most Europeans couldn't tell the difference between a republican and a democratic president anyway. And I'm sure Arab Street can't.

The *only* distinctions for the islamists is how hard we slap them with shoes. And whether we slap them at all. Everything else is a distraction. UN? Pfft. EU? heh. Israel? red herring.

If the US wasn't 'so supportive' (whatever that means) of Israel, do you think we'd have been saved 9/11 and all its precursors? No. The seeds of this conflict began when the nations now recognized as the cradle of Islam rejected scientific rationalism and nailed their own asses to the dark ages.

62 Model4  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 8:47:04am

#59 BPP: True enough. And as we've seen time and again, Democrats can bomb and invade whomever they want, without UN approval, and their "anti-war" base will silently sit on their hands. The opposition they'd get from a handful of hyper-partisan Republicans is nothing in comparison.

I do believe that in his heart Kerry would try to reduce the threat from terrorism, and would get it terribly wrong. Bush however hasn't been very clear about what we do from here. Of course he hasn't been offered the respect and leeway of liberals lending him their support, but he still needs to lead regardless. At least we've been making progress on multiple fronts.

63 'Nam Grunt  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:07:50am

Hi guys,

I'm just now recovering from hanoi kerry's sewage that he spouted in reference to vietnam last, this guy is more of a traitor than hanoi jane could ever have been, I hope everyone recognizes that this guy is a phony, it makes my 26 months in ACTUAL combat in 'nam seem so irrelevant, but it does my heart good to know that REAL 'nam Vet's see just how ingenuous he really is.

64 'Nam Grunt  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:09:15am

'disingenuous' sorry

65 Gordon  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:16:07am

#63 'nam grunt: Not everyone came out of their Vietnam experience as a right-wing nutcase like you. (See: John Kerry, Al Gore, John McCain) (Don't see: George W. Bush, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle)

It is possible to have served honorably in Vietnam and NOT think that all Muslim businesses should be boycotted or blown up.

66 johnCV  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:18:21am

Gordon

There have been American soldiers killed in Farnce, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Spain, Italy, Greece, Malta, Sicily, Phillipine, Burma, China, Japan, Korea, Indonesia, VietNam, Cambodia, Laos and hundreds of small islands in the Pacific. Many of them are still buried there, claiming the only ground we ever asked for. The sum total of our hundreds of thousands of dead children is that well over half of the world can now insult us without fear of reprisal. They have been given the gift of an opportunity to create a better life for themselves and thier families. Only because we (and our truest allies Britain, Australia and at one time Canada) knew that we were the only hope for saving mankind from it's darkest enemies. The ultimate scarifice was paid not only by these men and women, but by thier parents as well. They knew and believed in the cause - the dead are beyond pain, but the living carried that loss and pride for ever.
Show me the fields of tombstones scattered around the world by any other nation that sacrificed as many children in the defense of people we did not know.
Show me the generational scars of countries that came to the defense of its allies for no other reason than it was the right thing to do.
Show me the countires that invested till it hurt in its vanquished enemies so they too could have the benefits of a free and prosperous society.
And while were at it, show me a slave holding country that ripped itself apart and nearly wiped out a generation of it children to oppose a morally corrupt system.

No, I'm sorry your infantile stab at our dead children who sacrificed all so you would have the opportunity to defacate on thier death will not stand. The countries of the world DO owe the US a debt of gratitude greater than they would ever be able to repay - there is no time limit for this - the dead are still dead.

Gordon, you are unmitigated piece of shit. I hope you're as miserable as it appears.

67 The Other Elizabeth  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:18:24am

#47 Gordum

And how about 1917-1918, 87 years ago? Did you kind of forget about that? My grandfather couldn't. He was gassed in that war. Carried the effects to the day he died in 1969.

And my dad. Fought with the 29th Division. Carried a piece of German steel in his right shoulder until the day he died in 1994.

I'm imagining a mental picture of you meeting them, and getting the crap beat out of you.

Jerk.

The Other Elizabeth
Imperial Keeper

68 piglet  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:19:52am

I cannot find the rest of the poem online, but it is about the dead who must have a seat at every conference and UN table...

The Permanent Delegate by Yuri Suhl
My name is Jew. I come from the land of skeleteon. They beat me in Berlin, tortured me in Warsaw, shot me Lublin And I am still here -- the ash of my bones a glowing monument, a fiery headstone. I am the scorched hair of a virgin's bright curls smoothed and patted by anxious hands I am a maddened mother's futile tears soothing in vain a hundred anguished...


69 Thom  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:25:21am
Not everyone came out of their Vietnam experience as a right-wing nutcase like you.

Is he banned yet?

70 'Nam Grunt  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:26:15am

gordon,

I find it very amusing that you are calling ME a 'nutcase.

71 TMF  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:27:56am

#65 Gordon in response to #63 Nam Grunt

Not everyone came out of their Vietnam experience as a right-wing nutcase like you. (See: John Kerry, Al Gore,

I dont know, give me a "right wing nutcase" over a left wing nutcase like Al Gore or a flip flopping fraud like Kerry any day of the week.

72 Frank IBC  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:32:42am

He's starting to remind me of VFI the last week she was here. The tachometer has been over redline for some time now...the rods are starting to knock...

Faster, please...

73 Cam  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:34:35am

#65 Gordon:

I have defended you from time to time when you made a modicum of sense. However, your statement to 'Nam Grunt was waaay over the top. This is a man who did things that would give you nightmares in the service of his country and you spit on him for that. That was a vile statement. Did it ever occur to you that 'Nam Grunt's politics were formed from reasoned thought and study? Didn't think so.

BTW, not every person who attended public school became a boot-lick liberal apologist as a result. So what's your excuse?

74 punslinger  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:34:36am

This reminds me of the wife who publicly belittles her husband and then wonders why he gets no respect.

When you have leftists constantly falsely accuse the President of lying, it tends to get believed around the world.

75 'Nam Grunt  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:47:02am

gordon,

It is my personal freedom to boycott any business that donates money to islamist murderer's, that kill young Brave American Soldiers and young Brave Israeli Soldiers, I earned that right when I pledged allegiance to the United States of America, I'm just a country boy but I'm not stupid, I will always vote for George Bush, because he has his eye on the ball and he will defend this great country always.

76 gymnast  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:56:46am

Sometimes it's difficult to tell whether you've stepped in a pile of dog shit or on Gordons foot. Smells the same though.

77 Paul  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:57:19am

'Nam grunt, #75

A salute from a fellow VN vetern. Don't let Gordon bother you, he's been on the rag for the past few days. Apparently, the DNC didn't agree with him (President Dean just isn't going to happen).

P.S. to Gordon. I did'nt come home from VN a "right wing nut case" either.

78 Thousand Sons  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 9:58:07am

#59 BPP

OK guess I did miss your point. Somewhat. And you missed mine.

Point taken. Sorry if I got hot under the collar.

It drives me nuts to see the majority of people stick their head in the sand in this country. I've talked to people that honestly believe that any military action, offensive or defensive, is wrong. I had a guy tell me that if we got rid of all our weapons then everyone else would too. I've heard parents of soldiers say their kids didnt know what they were getting in to, like the military was some grand summer camp where you got to drive tanks!

79 Gordon  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:01:27am

#73 Cam: I don't spit on 'nam Grunt's experience in Vietnam. Even though he and many others on this site feel free to spit on John Kerry's similar experience.

What I spit upon is the notion that 'nam Grunt's Vietnam experience gives him some sort of right to spout the crap he does, like when he urges boycott of any business owned by or who employs Muslims.

80 rastajenk  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:01:51am

As an aside, I saw VDH featured on a new History Channel show, Great Battles, I think; he's one of those insightful heads they insert into shows like this. Pretty cool. VDH's multimedia star is on the rise.

81 Thom  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:04:14am

Boycott Gor-don.

82 BPP  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:15:43am

78 Thousand sons

I've talked to people that honestly believe that any military action, offensive or defensive, is wrong. I had a guy tell me that if we got rid of all our weapons then everyone else would too.

These are fringe views. Why are you worked up over fringe views? There can't be more than 5% of the population, if that, that believes that all military action is always wrong. Even fewer think that we should give up all our weapons so everyone else would.

Look, there is a legitimate debate that is useful to have about what threshold we should establish for military action. Pacifists and other fringe types are a tiny part of that debate.

83 NY Nana  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:18:39am

It hurts to see so many intelligent, well-presented posts wasted on a POS;

#81 Thom was perfect ! :) Short, but sweet? IMHO, no to the latter, but spot on (my poor monitor)

Hi, Cam!

Re Hanoi john:Rushed speech, lost opportunity

84 Paul  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:19:19am

Gordon, #73

I've never spit on Kerry's Viet Nam service, however, I have spit on his work as an anti-war activist in the early 70s. My experiences during 13 months in Viet Nam give me the right to do that.

If 'Nam Grunt wants to urge the boycott of Muslim owned businesses, he's free to do so. Just like you're free to critcize him for so urging. Viet Nam service (or lack thereof) is irrelevant.

85 'Nam Grunt  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:20:28am

gordon,

As I posted I earned the right to boycott muslim businesses, (if you love them so much why don't you join zarquawi in fallugah), I didn't plan on responding to you, but let me, if I may, tell you a little story, it was me that stuck my finger in the chest of a buddy that had a claymore mine blown up in front of him and caught a ball bearing in his chest and watched him die, it was me that applied first aid to another buddy that had both of his legs blown off and died in my arms as I was carrying him to a Medevec chopper, no brag just fact! and I could go on and on, I have carried these thoughts for years and if you can even compare these things to anything hanoi kerry did in four months then YOU are the nutcase! and another thing I WAS spit on by someone when I came back after my first tour, of course he has false teeth now but , oh well.

86 NY Nana  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:20:49am

'Nam Grunt, and others who served with honor:

G-d bless you, and thank you; an inadequate word to ever repay you the respect and gratitude you are owed.

87 Cam  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:21:11am

Hi Nana!

How's things?

:-)

88 NY Nana  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:29:33am

#84 Paul

To call a paltry 4 months in 'Nam, and a quick exit, somethong to honor I have to disagree, especially since his 'wounds' were 3 scratches, 2 of which may have been self-inflicted. He spent most of the rest of his time working at the Brooklyn Navy Yard.

Kerry's exploits in Vietnam are disputed in best seller

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth

Hanoi john is a liar and a danger to our country.

89 'Nam Grunt  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:30:23am

Thankyou Nana and may g*d bless you and the Israeli Armed Forces.

90 NY Nana  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:32:11am

#87 Cam

Same old, same old...if I ever wake up, I'll answer my emails...maybe even today! :)

Fishing weather this weekend?

91 Cam  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:37:14am

#90 NY Nana:

Fishing weather this weekend?

Damn straight. 'Course it's always fishing weather AFAIK. Tides are perfect for halibut this weekend, and next weekend is Dad's Memorial Salmon Derby. Busy, busy, busy...

;-)

92 NY Nana  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:43:29am

#91 Cam

Damn straight. 'Course it's always fishing weather AFAIK. Tides are perfect for halibut this weekend, and next weekend is Dad's Memorial Salmon Derby. Busy, busy, busy

Re the Memorial Salmon Derby? I hope that you catch 'The Big One'!

93 Paul  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:44:38am

NY Nana

OT: but an update to a prior thread.
My grandparents lived on 41st St. in Astoria (near Ditmars Blvd). They had a two family house which is now by owned by Greeks.

94 Thousand Sons  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 10:55:04am

#82 BPP

These are fringe views. Why are you worked up over fringe views?

Maybe it depends on where you live. I live in the Pacific NW, and those are not fringe views here. BDS is thick on the ground here. As a reformed liberal, I hear stuff like this all time to varying degrees.

I have to put up with well-heeled, well-to-do aging hippies who sip lattes, drive pricey Land Rovers, and call our brave soldiers baby killers!

Look at the mainstream media and pop culture and ask yourself if you think its a tiny fringe opinion. Our corrupt, Hollywood useful idiots who strut and preen their anti-american views like peacocks. Our news outlets are doing everything they can to undermine our countrys morale.

I agree that as Americans we have the right to debate our countrys course of action. I just hope that the majority doesnt steer our course straight into hell.

95 Chrees  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 11:01:37am

#80 I saw that last night, on the battle of Cannae. He has been in a few of THC's programs... a positive addition, not doubt.

I really like VDH's analysis on things and relating current events to historical precedents. And he has indirectly gotten me reading a lot of ancient history. But part of this article has me feeling... ummm... uneasy. And it's hard for me to put it into words, but I'll try. Probably unsuccessfully.

"Indeed, if our dead could rise out of their graves they would surely rebuke us for our present blasphemy — shaking their fingers and remonstrating that bin Laden and his followers, both active and passive, are no different from Hitler and the other evil killers of their own age, who deserve to be defeated, not reasoned with or apologized to, and not understood. The voices of our dead abroad murmur to us, the deaf, that a nation is liked not by being good and weak or bad and strong, but only by proving both principled and resolute.

Sleep in peace, you ten thousand of St. Avold, and let us pray that we, the smug beneficiaries of your ultimate sacrifice, may still wake up from our own slumber."

Hard for me to diagree with this. But it's also hard for me to disagree with the feeling that the ten thousand of St. Avold didn't intend to die so half of Europe could be sold into Communism for almost half a century. Again, I'm not sure what I'm trying to get at here... probably that wars, even for the most just causes, have ancillary unwanted outcomes. And that politics appears to be unavoidable when things are as clear as evil incarnate. Politics shouldn't enter in the picture, but it does.

Shrug... I definitely don't mean this as a jab at any one... just trying to figure out why I agree with the article so much but still have some lingering unease about it...

96 lester1/2jr  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 11:06:40am

I think we shold all, including the guy who does this board, admit that we all flirted with neo-conservitism after 9/11 and that it didn't really mean anything. I mean if you analyze what Bush says the way Ann Coulter analyzes what and democrat says it's look just as stupid, as farenheit 9/11 proved. We used the conservitives as bully's against terrorism, but it didn't really work out. Besides terrorism, they're still the pary of listening to heavy metal lyrics backwards and weird pagan like christian revival stuff. I'm a post-conservative. and you probably are too. Now let's elect a president with experience like any normal country/ company/ shuffleboard society would. Kerry

97 grayp  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 11:09:15am

#95 Chrees

Here's your problem.

Politics shouldn't enter in the picture, but it does.


There is no vertebrate society that is not political. I'm serious. Take this premise out of your mental mix and see if it helps.

98 RIP Ford  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 11:09:34am

We've been Mobyed!

99 grayp  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 11:11:46am

#96

Day-um!. Another soggy keyboard!

100 Thom  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 11:14:34am

#96 lester1/2jr

What do you mean by neo-conservatism?

101 Paul  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 11:17:45am

#96

Put down the bong, splash some water in your face and try again.

102 Gordon  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 11:33:11am

#88 NY Nana: Unlike 'nam Grunt, you do not even have the saving grace to have served your country in wartime. For you to call John Kerry "Hanoi John" is even more obscene than 'nam Grunt or someone else who is at least a veteran doing so. You know absolutely nothing of what it is like to fight in Vietnam, Iraq, or anywhere else for that matter except perhaps with your own family or neighbors, which isn't quite the same thing. I never served in Vietnam or anywhere else in the armed forces, but I don't go around calling people "Hanoi John" either.

As for 'nam Grunt and other Vietnam vets, I respect what you had to do for your country in that war. I don't respect your denigration and vilification of a fellow veteran's experiences. I can understand an attack on Kerry's work after the war against it, but to trash the man's military experience, when you have gone through a similar nightmare (and war is a nightmare, no matter how justified it is) is truly beyond the pale.

103 Thom  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 11:35:32am

Shut up, stupid.

104 Sarah D.  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 11:39:51am

#101 Paul

Summer session is out at most universities. They'll crawl back to their L³ professors in the fall and continue to suck off the teat of hypocrisy.

Them: "Bush is a Nazi!!!"

Me: "Then why are you allowed to wear that Che Guevara solidarity T-shirt shithead?"

105 NY Nana  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 11:40:12am

#93 Paul

Our son lives at 41st St and 34th Ave. Small world! It is Greek, Columbian, Egyptian, Indian, Korean, and as multi-ethnic as anywhere in the city. It is also very safe, and in his building, the tenants are friendly, and because our daughter lived there for about 10 years, they treat him as one of the family.

Astoria,NY

Kaufman Astoria Studios

This may bring back some memories..the studio complex just grows and grows.

Greek restaurants are amazing, and people come from all over. Many times there are limos with celebrities who come to have dinner there, and the Sopranos filmed in an Italian restaurant that now takes up a whoe block!

When I speak of my home town, this embarrassment is what I get! :)

T quietly ran trains for delegates

106 David Simon  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 11:41:42am

#102 Gordon -

I don't respect your denigration and vilification of a fellow veteran's experiences.

But when Kerry does it it's okay with you?

107 Paul  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 11:51:31am

#102 Gordon

To the best of my memory, I've never denigrated Kerry's Viet Nam service. I have, however, strongly criticized his words and actions as an anti-war activist.
You don't have to be a VN vetern to object to Kerry's role as a leader of and spokesman for Viet Nam Veterns against the War. Calling Kerry "Hanoi John" may be hyperbole but it's not obscene (do you think calling George Bush a "deserter" or "Bushler" is obscene?). But I'll let NY Nana speak for herself; she's more than capable of doing that.

108 NY Nana  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 11:55:20am

Now this, unlike nodrog, is interesting and intelligent :)

Mr. Holland's Opus

OK The good guys, repeat after me *Gaze*

109 lester1/2jr  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 12:02:43pm

awww come on. The liberal party is the smart party at the end of the day. The conservitive pundits have their place but it's time to go back to the liberal side where we belong. Unless you want to go listen to heavy metal records backwords to try and find satanic messages. that's all conservitism is. Post conservitives unite - Kerry for president. This board should go back to being a liberal board like pre 9/11

110 Thom  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 12:06:03pm

#109 lester1/2jr

It would appear that what you know about conservatism wouldn't fill a thimble.

111 Ann  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 12:15:00pm

#109 lester1/2jr:

Kerry for president. This board should go back to being a liberal board like pre 9/11

I understand now. The islamists do not really exist, and the evil that they represent is a Bush fabrication.

Kerry will make it all go away, and the world will be a better place (and the world...clap your hands...will be a better place)

112 Paul  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 12:20:55pm

NY Nana, #105

Astoria has certainly changed. When my mother was growing up on 41st St. the neighborhood was mainly Irish with some Italian and German. But that was many years ago and New York City neighborhoods are always in flux.

I still rememeber visiting my grandparents during the '50s; a boy from Levittown, I thought it was very exotic and dangerous. ;-)

Back in the '60s a friend of mine was in the Army, stationed at Ft. Wadsworth(?), he helped make military training films in an Astoria studio.

113 Paul  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 12:26:40pm

#109

Maybe you should troll the DU, that's where all the smart people are---so they always tell us.

114 Gordon  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 12:26:47pm

#107 Paul:

do you think calling George Bush a "deserter" or "Bushler" is obscene?

Yes, I do. The Bush vilification on the left has gone way too far. I also refuse to see "Fahrenheit 9-11" because Michael Moore is a liar.

115 Cognosus  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 12:36:34pm

Lester.

Unless you want to go listen to heavy metal records backwords to try and find satanic messages. that's all conservitism is.

WTF?

. . .as farenheit 9/11 proved

Somehow, my initial surprise is fading after having read that.

they're still the pary of listening to heavy metal lyrics backwards and weird pagan like christian revival stuff.

'Pagan like christian revival stuff' is self-contradictory bullshit. Then again, what else is to be expected from someone who cites Michael Moore as proof?

116 lester1/2jr  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 12:37:28pm

I was just messing around.

117 Thom  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 12:38:24pm

116 lester1/2jr

And, uhh ... a fine job you did. Yeah ...

118 Cognosus  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 1:34:28pm

116

Eh... bravo, indeed.

119 Donna V.  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 1:53:04pm

I don't expect the Europeans to fall to their knees and thank us every day for saving their asses in WWI and II. I don't believe the US is beyond all criticism. But I do expect them to not actively work against us, especially when we've been footing the bill for their defense since the end of WWII. I do expect better criticism than "Bush is a cowboy, you're all fat slobs putting McDonald's all over the globe, Americans are stupid, yadda, yadda, yadda,...,"

To continue with RIP Ford's excellent analogy, instead of honestly competing with the best kid in the class, the Euros (and a lot of the rest of the world) have been throwing spitballs, trying to rip up the smart kid's homework, tying his shoelaces together when he's not looking and tripping him in the hallway. When they're not trying to make him look like a fool and klutz on the sly ('cause they don't have the muscles to challenge him to a fight in the schoolyard), they're standing in the corners snickering and making catty, snotty remarks.

The smart kid will do just fine if he doesn't "dumb down" in order to make the losers like him.

120 lester1/2jr  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 2:09:09pm

donna v - if you get the chance I did post a rebuttal to your point in about a week ago. It was about Kerry and israel.

121 Frank IBC  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 3:45:33pm

# 109 lester1/2jr

The liberal party is the smart party at the end of the day. The conservitive pundits have their place but it's time to go back to the liberal side where we belong. Unless you want to go listen to heavy metal records backwords to try and find satanic messages. that's all conservitism is. Post conservitives unite...

If Liberals are so smart, how come they can't spell the word "conservative" correctly?

122 Frank IBC  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 3:50:24pm

#109 lester1/2jr

Unless you want to go listen to heavy metal records backwords to try and find satanic messages. that's all conservitism[sic] is.

Does the name Tipper Gore mean anything to you? Anything at all? Does it ring even the softest little bell in your memory?

123 Frank IBC  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 3:54:33pm

Sorry, that should have been...

Unless you want to go listen to heavy metal records backwords [sic] to try and [sic] find satanic messages. that's [capitalization sic] all conservitism [sic] is.

124 Thom  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 4:28:22pm

#122 Frank IBC

LOL.

125 Rose  Fri, Jul 30, 2004 4:58:39pm

READ
[Link: encyclopedia.fablis.com...]

In March 1963, Oswald (using the name of his ex-boss in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, Alek J. Hidell) purchased a rifle and handgun that was later linked to the events of November 22, 1963.

Rifle

6.5x52mm Mannlicher-Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle
Serial number C2766
Western Cartridge 160 grain (10.37 g) ammunition
Side-mounted Ordnance Optics 4 x 18 scope
Handgun

0.38 Special Smith & Wesson Victory revolver 2.25 in bbl
Serial number V510210
Converted from 0.38 S&W, shortened from 5 in bbl
The rifle was kept in the basement of family friends, the Paines, cousins of John Forbes Kerry, at whose home Maria Oswald was living at the time. Michael R. Paine was the son of Ruth Forbes Paine, who remarried Arthur Young, the inventor of the Bell helicopter used in Korea and Vietnam. Michael R. Paine and Ruth Forbes Paine Young were Forbes family heirs and as is Sen. Kerry, a coincidence since both he and the assassinated President bear the initials JFK. See Warren Commission report describing testimony of Michael R. Paine and his wife, Ruth Paine. [1] Because of her son's involvement in the assassination, her Forbes family's involvement with drug dealing in China during the Opium War, and her husband's involvement with the military and defense industry, Mrs. Ruth Forbes Paine Young started the International Peace Academy, which have fed rumors about her family's politics.

126 lester1/2jr  Sat, Jul 31, 2004 7:26:30am

don't you guys think Bush lacks enthusiasm though? Besides cutting taxes, he doesn't really seem to enjoy being the president. I think he enjoys his title, but not really the actual job. I mean Kerry can't wait. Clinton, Guliani, they were all hungry for it.

127 zulubaby  Sat, Jul 31, 2004 7:52:40am

Giuliani was president? Who knew.

128 Thom  Sat, Jul 31, 2004 8:53:04am

#126 lester1/2jr

I guess you haven't been watching him for the last 4 years or so ...

129 lester1/2jr  Sat, Jul 31, 2004 9:20:43am

We'll just disagree then. But it's something that has bugged me since before 9/11 even. I just don't picture him getting up like "yeah let's work". He doesn't even seem that interested in politics.


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