They're saying what I suspected from the medal inscriptions.

I'll give the man credit for one thing, he looks a long way into the future. He planned those rewards for the purpose for which he's trying to use them now.

There's no statute of limitations on war crimes, right?

I hope they're planning to by TV time to run that a few times.

Sorry to double post. BTW, on the old string and semaphore home modem, I'm not going to be able to actually watch said linky at home. Please, discuss in juicy detail.

Dear Edward,
Last week in Boston, we introduced a documentary video detailing John Kerry's continually changing position on Iraq.

Rudy Giuliani said he thinks "every American should see this" because "it's going to say a lot more than any speech John Kerry gives." We couldn't agree more.

Watch Rudy Giuliani speak on Kerry's record and introduce the video at [Link: www.GeorgeWBush.com...]

To view the full length video, visit [Link: www.KerryOnIraq.com...]

From the stage in Boston, Kerry talked about the need to fight terror, but his flip-flopping on this important issue paints a different picture.

From talking tough about the need to remove Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction in 2001 to declaring himself the anti-war candidate in 2004, Kerry's stance on Iraq has shifted with the political wind.

Seeing for yourself the political metamorphosis and verbal gymnastics of John Kerry's Iraq policy over the last three years tells the story better than any speech, ad, or press release ever could.

Once you watch the introduction at [Link: www.GeorgeWBush.com...] we encourage you to view the full length video at [Link: www.KerryOnIraq.com,...] request a copy for yourself, and share it with your friends.

Sincerely,

Ken Mehlman
Campaign Manager

---
Was this forwarded to you?

why didn't they show this video at the DNC?

#1 Dan S: Kerry has planned this all along, but I don't think he planned the Winter Soldier stuff-- perhaps he envisaged a different ending for the Viet Nam War-- that Winter Soldier stuff is going to eat him alive. :)

That King's X was deliciouso, I can't wait to see what's up next! And I did really enjoy the Miles Davis concert-- I still think he's dreamy. :)

What an amazing ad! I think if enough people see it, it's game and set and match for Bush. That thing is brilliantly put together.

'm donating to them. I encourage others who want to stop Kerry to do the same.

I want to see that ad playing during Law and Order and CSI. Hell, I want it playing instead of the evening news.
Kerry has chosen to run on his war record alone--so all right, let's pop his balloon and send him home.

Just viewed it.

Several posters over at Roger L. Simon's blog think that the video will do Kerry a lot of damage. RLS's own take:

As a Democrat, I would have voted for Lieberman and even considered Edwards, but there is practically no chance... barring some strange revelation... that I would vote for Kerry. And it is not because of the allegations in the new book detailed by Drudge, disturbing as they may be if true. Ultimately, I don't care what a man did thirtysome years ago. I have to allow him to grow and change, if I am to allow that for myself. I care about where the man is today... and this man seems nowhere.

Roger also linked to an op-ed by Zev Chafets in the
NY Daily News: "Why Bush is going to win:
Kerry's a captive of the overbearing, elitist wing of his party "

[Link: www.nydailynews.com...]

There is a script, but &iexclQue Lastima!, it won't open for me!

The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.

---

Please try the following:

If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly.

Open the [Link: www.swiftvets.com...] home page, and then look for links to the information you want.
Click the Back button to try another link.
Click Search to look for information on the Internet.

HTTP 400 - Bad Request
Internet Explorer

Ed Moran, #11, try one of these direct links:

Windows Media format:
[Link: www.swiftvets.com...]

RealPlayer format:
[Link: www.swiftvets.com...]

QuickTime format:
[Link: www.swiftvets.com...]
 

OT:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

"But Muslim fundamentalists regard the Koran - every word of it - as God's own language, and they have violently attacked freethinking scholars as heretics. So Muslim intellectuals have been intimidated, and Islam has often been transmitted by narrow-minded extremists.

(This problem is not confined to Islam. On my blog, [Link: www.nytimes.com...] I've been battling with fans of the Christian fundamentalist "Left Behind" series. Some are eager to see me left behind.)"

Kristof compares his being intellectually challenged on one of his earlier op-ed with islamic scholars who can't use their real names for fear of being murdered.

I notice he hasn't stopped using his real name.

Perhaps the real problem is confined to islam.

#6, ploome hineini

I don't know where they "come from," but I do know where they haven't been: out in the real world, where--in my area of interest, the children of recent Asian-American immigrants are filling the classes at Stanford and Harvard. "Second-class citizens?" Hell, in the top % of their class--and that's fine with most of the old-line WASPS still around in those places.

Simon's statement is valid. People grow and change.

But when they RUN on what they did thirty years ago...

well, NOT questioning if they've changed would be incredibly irresponsible.

Ed Moran: Various 'Nam era photos of Kerry in background, swift boat vets one at a time being interviewed in foreground. Serious-as-a-heart-attack quotes. I recorded the audio and converted to mp3 and sent it too you so it's not so big. The ad as a whole looks well done.

I'm skeptical. Why didn't this come out before? If all of Kerry's swift boat comrades hate him, what about the men who served under him who "gush" over his gallantry?

All I know is, these guys had better have their ducks in a row. Because if they don't, and this turns out to be bullshit, it's going to blow up in Bush's face. Mark my words.

Oh, and the name, rank and decorations of the vets are subscripted under them when they speak. These guys look and sound "for real" and are putting their integrity on the line. It doesn't come across as hackish or fringe.

Powerline has another classic Kerry photo: [Link: www.powerlineblog.com...]

"Every day I'm more impressed with the fact that if Kerry wins, as he very well may, we are in for a strange four years."

I voted for John Kerry before I voted against him.

#17 NC

Why didn't this come out before?

Because you don't fire all your bullets at once. The GOP knew something about Kerry's service in Vietname would be a part of the DNC convention and, as fate would have it, they get a nice snippet from Edwards to lead into the ad.

But if this is coming out in August, I'm quite sure they've got more devastating stuff waiting for October. Think about when the records about Bush's drunk driving stops were released in 2000.

Simon's statement is valid. People grow and change.

Growing and changing is fine, but not over the course of a few weeks.

For apolitician, that's not growing and changing, that's sticking your finger in the wind to see which way the political wind is blowing.  "I voted for the $87 billion, before I voted against it" and all that.
 

#17 NC: My hunch as to why they've not come forward before is that, to my knowledge, he hasn't made a big deal about his record as a war hero before, and he's not only doing so now, but in a huge way. He's also heavily implied that everyone who's served with him endorse him, loves him, and thinks he'd be a fabulous leader. There was a pic Kerry posted of himself with a bunch of the guys (like 20) and it turns out only two or three support him. Then on general principles, Kerry has been disgusting (IMO and others) talking up his record and setting up others to do so, something most vets are loathe to do. Had he not done this, even if he truly had character flaws over there, I don't think it would have been begrudged him today.

Dunno how on-the-level this is, will let them hash it out. Obviously there's money to be made and political influence to be wielded. I'm not going to judge these guy's motives yet, just like I'm going to give Kerry the benefit of the doubt on the nature of his service over there. But this was a steel gauntlet across the face.

how John Kerry "staged" a combat scene in Vietnam (for which he was decorated)

etc...

William, I actually decided to give the WMP a try just now, but I gave up.

My wife won't let me have high speed at home. She thinks I'll turn into an innernut addict.

Yet Another "What Was He Thinking?!?" Photo-Oooops

Kerry has got to lose this election. He could be more dangerous than Gore, although that seems beyond comprehension. I pray God intervenes in this election and ensures we elect the best person for the job of President and leader of the War on Terror.

Thanks, Model 4

#28 Frank

Don't you know? He was re-enacting the "Max Cleland Oh Shit I Dropped My Grendades Get Me Outta Here!" impression made famous by...Max Cleland.

Ad (or something about it) on Hannity and Colmes after this segment.

#17 NC -

Why didn't this come out earlier?

If you were in the upper echelons of the RNC, would YOU want to do ANYTHING that would have kept this utter doofus from receiving the nomination of the Democratic Party?

Corn Photo Op, Gravitas Included This Time

Because you don't fire all your bullets at once. The GOP knew something about Kerry's service in Vietname would be a part of the DNC convention

Skippy -- Kerry's been beating the drum about his service in Vietnam since the day he started campaigning. To wait until now to respond to it is incredibly foolish, particularly when Democrats are already having a field day with the three-year-old terror warning intelligence. They're going to treat this as just another set of "facts" cooked up by Bush to swing the election his way at the last minute. If the swiftboat stuff is true, it should have been front and center months ago.

Then on general principles, Kerry has been disgusting (IMO and others) talking up his record and setting up others to do so, something most vets are loathe to do. Had he not done this, even if he truly had character flaws over there, I don't think it would have been begrudged him today.

Model4 -- Fair enough, but as I say, he's been talking about Vietnam literally for years now. It's the running joke of his campaign. It strikes me as incredible that he'd make this big of a deal about his service if there were people waiting in the wings who could punch a hole through his credibility.

Bottom line: Bush is in big trouble if this doesn't pan out.

Gravitas indeed.

Waving corn out of the window of a bus and waving corn as you board AF-One...hmmm...big difference.

# 27 Ed

"My wife won't let me have high speed at home. She thinks I'll turn into an innernut addict."

Well, you've always said she's a smart woman ...
:-)

# 28 Frank

sheesh! It's like he's got to meet a daily quota! How long until his handlers start physically restraining him at appearances -- "Damnit John! Stand still, give your stump speech and get your ass back on the bus!!!"
:-)

The Swift Boat Vets have been trying to get their story out in the public for many months---but it seems that the msm just hasn't been interested. They had a press conference some time ago--and have had a web page since Kerry started winning primaries. Maybe this time some attention will be paid to them

Are specifics available? Along these lines:

The Kerry version of incident A.---Our (my) version

" " " " B. --- " " ":

And so on, with clues for reconstructing both versions and comparing, or, even better, corroborating evidence.

Until then, this remains a "he says"--"we say" story.

NC-17 or Rated X,

#17 NC
I'm skeptical. Why didn't this come out before? If all of Kerry's swift boat comrades hate him, what about the men who served under him who "gush" over his gallantry?

Out of 250 Swift boat vets, 11 have campaigned for Kerry. 2 are one his payroll...

And the SwiftBoat Vets held a press conference in May, got no attention. Why May?
Because most of them are democrats!! And they wanted to thwart his primary win, and give someone else the nomination. After he won, they decided to put it in book form, and this is an additional ad.

Plus, after the convention and the 8mm show, there's a new urgency among those who say: "he's proud of Vietnam service now, after spitting on us, and causing us to be spit upon by America!"

The stolen honor of the returning vets is greatly attributable to the egregious lies Kerry told on the #1 rated talk show, Dick Cavett (in the time of 3 network channels!!). John ONeill, Kerry's replacement, debated him, and is just gobsmacked to see this lying opportunist climb so high in politics. I'd be bitter too.

Anybody read Buzz Patterson's new book? He also goes into great detail about Kerry's brave and patriotic service. According to Patterson:

Kerry requested a deferment from the draft so he could go to France to study for twelve months.

His deferment request was denied and rather than face the draft, he 'volunteered' for a safe tour aboard an off shore boat, but he was transferred to the swift boats.

He mentioned to a shipmate when he heard about his new duty, that if you get three purple hearts, you could go home.

Kerry took command of his first swift-boat and a crew of two men on December 1, 1968.

Kerry put himself in for his first purple heart on December 2, 1968. (After he was scratched with a mortar fragment which ricocheted off of shore line rocks which he fired to close at unarmed villagers running away for the shore.

Kerry's CO denied the purple heart request, informed Kerry that the medal was only awarded to those who took fire and considered taking action against him.

The men on board said that the only party shooting was Kerry. Kerry reported that they had come under fire. His crew expressed concerns about ever going out with him again.

Kerry was immediately transferred to another boat. His new CO approved the appeal of the first purple heart claim which included details about how he had taken fire from a hostile VC group. It gets worse. Much worse.

#34 NC: I didn't realize Bush served in a swift boat with Kerry! He's not in the commercial, maybe to make it appear more politically neutral.
/teasing

OK, how does this reflect on Bush or his party? Heck, I guess if you're already willing to think it, perhaps its something Kerry can sell. But, Kerry's going to have to do it by going through these veterans, and doing so very publically.

The timing is pretty good for the GOP, but far from perfect. Were I them (and they were in on it), I'd have aimed for September. What about the option that these vets are telling the truth? Where are the vets stepping forward to say "These assholes offered me a wad of money to slander Kerry, and I'm furious!"? By no means are all war vets noble and perfect people. But the odds of assembling this many from such a tight-knit group seem pretty hard to face up. Plus, the GOP would know that 1) the Dems will try to pin this on them as a falsehood and 2) if it was, that's the end of Bush's chance to win a race he's already very competitive in.

I'm not sticking up for these guys, don't know what happened. But what if they wanted to step forward, and the publisher said "OK, but do us a favor... sales will be better if we release it on this date"?

I wonder why Kerry just used a faerie (ferry) to do the photo op with his "swiftboat pals?". I wonder why he didn't just show up in a hollywood replica of pt-109.

If any of these guys in this ad is proven NOT to be who he claims to be, then this ad could create a major backlash against Bush.

Indeed, this group has been around for a while (several months) and this information has likewise been available via the web. The held a press conference and presented lots of this back then. It was, as you can imagine, ignored.

Note that this is a 527 group and completely independent from the Bush campaign. There is no RNC or Bush campaign involvement. And correct me if I'm wrong, but since this ad specifically mentions Kerry, under McCain-Feingold, it can't be run in the last 60 days prior to the election.

Does anyone have a working link to the script? I can't find a Google cache.

It's a shame these guys didn't get their website ducks entirely in a row before going public. I'd encourage Charles or other professionals to offer them some pro bono help ASAP...

NC--as bleeding heart conservative said, this is actually old news. I read their website months ago, and they gave a news conference, and NO ONE in the mainstream media was the least bit interested. I was actually quite upset, wondering why this stuff was getting no traction at all. Just imagine if similar things had been alleged about Bush, what a ruckus would have been raised! But the media was fast in the grip (as I recall, anyway) of Abu Ghraib and Fallujah and Sadr and the like.

Kerry certainly knew about these guys and their website and their press conference. And, knowing what he must have known, I find it mindboggling that he chose to make the entire convention about his Vietnam service. It shows, if nothing else does, how poor his judgment is, because he is potentially VERY vulnerable on these issues, from the circumstances of his medals to the circumstances of his leaving Vietnam to what he did with said medals to his Winter Soldier activities. I think he felt invulnerable because the MSM was protecting him, and he just didn't think anyone would listen to these swift boat guys. And, for a while, he was absolutely correct. And perhaps he still is---it remains to be seen how much mainstream coverage this will get.

But, if it doesn't get much, it is just one more proof of the depth of media bias today.

I read the intro in the debate between John O'Neil and John Kerry in 1971, and all I have to say to the veterans of the war is this:

Thanks guys.

-ron

#51 TomC: Doh! Absolutely forgot about the McCain Feingold assault on free speech. So yeah, their window is limited by their denied constitutional rights. This, lefties, in censorship.

I'm going to have to get dates too since you guys brought up that these vets came forward months ago. Because the libs are going to have to be made to own up to that when they start crying "election timing."

BHC and Rayra -- No doubt, the media has done and will continue to do everything it can to bury this. My question is, why did it take until now for the "Unfit for Command" book to appear? Why did it take until now, when douchebags on the left are making political hay of the "timing" surrounding every fucking geopolitcal development, to put together that ad? They could have forced the media's hand months ago by releasing the book and ad earlier, but instead they waited until now, when the proximity to the election gives the Dems a golden opportunity to dismiss the whole thing as dirty politics. Foolish.

Model4 -- How does it reflect on Bush? I can answer that rationally or with leftist reasoning. Rationally: Doesn't. Leftist: BUSH PUT THEM UP TO IT! HE'S THE FUCKING PUPPETMASTER AND YOU'RE HIS PINOCCHIO! THEY'RE PROBABLY BEING PAID OFF WITH SHEKELS! BLARRR.

I identified that gesture Sen. Kerry keeps making with his hands. Its Namaste, the Yogic greeting (pictures and my comments)

This brings up a serious issue:

How serious is Kerry about these Eastern mystical beliefs? If he is serious, then that puts into question his willingness to defend the US due to his spiritual pacifist beliefs.

Oh, G-d, I just saw the "Adopt Pinky the Cat" mpg...I OT - am laughing so hard that I am out of breath and sweating...

Reminds me of something JFK would do...

One key passage on Swiftvets site (and they may build a strong case in time) is:

"Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is in the process of researching John Kerry's time in Vietnam...We will report the true circumstances of Kerry's medal awards and injuries, describe other controversial missions..."

OK. I guess we have to wait to find out what they can find out. Or, what a couple of investigative reporters (WashTimes?) can discover as well.

Each one of the vets who are on the ad gives his name, rank, and is shown over a highlighted photo of Kerry's Swiftboat comrades. Why would anyone commit media suicide if what they are saying is not true? I know that if I stood up in public and spoke to a falsehood while signing my name to it would destroy any honor I might have. These men have nothing to gain by speaking out. Time and again they have said that they do not necessarily support Bush but can no longer stand by while the slanderous statements made by Kerry years ago are washed away in glory as he stumps for the White House.
I have nothing but admiration for these veterans. They are as brave now as they were 35 years ago. You all know that the Democrat Machine will try everything to destroy their reputations. They are in for a battle they have not seen before and I hope that they are prepared to withstand what will be thrown at them.
Again, I have nothing but the highest respect for these men. They are once again defending our nation.

American Infidel
If you haven't already read it, you might also enjoy Evan Wright's book, Generation Kill. He writes for Rolling Stone (but so did P.J. O'Rourke) and rode the "tip of the spear" into Iraq as an embedded reporter.

This book was accurate and very authentic and his fondness of the Marines comes through. (Unlike 'Jarhead', which I threw across the room and never finished.) Grrr...

You have any suggestions for my reading list (other than Swiftboat, of course)?

It is in the Democrats interest to not say a word about this ad. If they don't, the media will go along and not too much will come of it.
Fortunately, they cannot resist blaming Bush, so even though the media will back them, it will cause a lot of publicity. Ultimately, even the media will feel the need to call for Kerry to release his unreleased military records (pertaining to his 3 Purple Hearts, both the Bronze and Silver Stars, and several missing fitness reports). Unless those records are harmless (unlikely or they'd have been released long ago), he can only look bad no matter what he does.

# 63 Pb

Kerry is way too busy being a lapsed Catholic to be a serious pacificstic polytheist -- I think this is the least of our worries ...

That's TEREZA sitting next to him in the car?

I thought it was Michael Myers.

I urge everyone who is able to donate to Swift Vets so this ad can get as large an ad buy as possible...

Also, as mentioned by other commenters on this blog, these veterans have been screaming this message for a long time. However, the liberal media just continues to censor the news to benefit Kerry.

If a Republican had the same Vietnam record and especially were cloaking himself in that record as Kerry is, you can bet the media would have investigated every little aspect and interviewed everyone who served with that person to try to dig up any dirt...

We must get the truth out...

Also, I urge everyone to talk this up at work, with friends, relatives, etc...it's not all about big media...you'd be surprised how much "watercooler" talk matters with people...let's not be overshadowed by the liberals and allow them to outshout us...

#49 Rayra

I'm with you all the way. Geez, back in January after Kerry won Iowa because of his military service, these stories were surfacing. From his three purple hearts, to throwing away his ribbons, to his "war crimes" testimony before Congress, to the Winter Soldier, etc. there is so much out there that angers veterans about John Kerry. This is finally coming up, but I imagine the media will ignore it.

Dozens of stories on Bush's service in the reserves, but so very, very little media scrutiny of Kerry's service in Vietnam. There is no hope left in our media being objective in this election, but I never expected it to be this bad.

If the media applied the same standard to publicizing this story as they did to the Bush National Guard story, Kerry would be toast.

Write the media and demand that they cover this story...

.The DU rebuttal for the Swift Vets claims

I'm going to research [Link: www.mediamatters.org...] - find out what they believe.

I guess the 'they're Republicans' tactic was to be expected

Well, no matter how you slice it, this is political dynamite.

The Manchurian Candidate, and the red queen is the ketchup baroness.

Here is an example of Kerry's pride in his veteran status.
Kerry as author.

#70 Buckaroo

Kerry is way too busy being a lapsed Catholic to be a serious pacificstic polytheist -- I think this is the least of our worries ...

Whether they realise it or not, people really are guided by their core beliefs.

If Sen. Kerry takes this stuff seriously, we certainly are in trouble.

Rayra -- I realize the swift boat veterans have been talking about it FOR MONTHS. I realize that LGF has covered it at length. The problem is, LGF has only ("only") 50,000 readers. LGF isn't going to swing the election. The 10% of the electorate that is gets its news from the mainstream media, which, as we both have already acknowledged, won't cover the swift boat vets' story unless its hand is forced -- by, say, the release of a book called "Unfit for Command." That's why I say the book should have been released months ago, when this stuff couldn't be deflected with still more bullshit about "timing."

It'll be interesting to see how this stuff plays.

Caption for the Kerry Corn [Maize, to my UK friends] Photo -

"Wow, these are like giant versions of those things you get in Hunan Beef!"

Where's zombie?

Illinois dream matchup: Keyes v. Obama

kerry in 1972 was thinking like Austin Powers crica 2000...

"well I guess we showed those capitalist pigs eh comrades?"

uh... mr kerry, we won...

"oh... yeah capitalism."

As far as how Kerry will respond to this:

How do you ask a man to be the last man to lie for a mistake?

Nevermind. I should've known that the [Link: www.mediamatter.org...] site would be LLL drivel.

#79 Karen
From that book:

The country doesn't realize it yet but it has created a monster in the form of thousands of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history -- men who have returned with a sense of anger and of betrayal that no one so far has been able to grasp. We are angry because we feel we have been used in the worst fashion by the administration of this country.

In 1970 at West Point Vice President Agnew said "some glamorize the criminal misfits of society while our best men die in Asian rice paddies to preserve the freedom which most of those misfits abuse," and this was used as a rallying point for our effort in Vietnam. But for us, as boys in Asia whom the country was supposed to support, his statement is a terrible distortion from which we can only draw a very deep sense of revulsion, and hence the anger of some of the men who are here in Washington today. It is a distortion because we in no way consider ourselves the best men of this country; because those he calls misfits were standing up for us in a way that nobody else in this country dared to; because so many who have died would have returned to this country to join the misfits in their efforts to ask for an immediate withdrawal from South Vietnam; because so many of those best men have returned as quadriplegics and amputees -- and they lie forgotten in Veterans Administration hospitals in this country which fly the flag which so many have chosen as their own personal symbol -- and we cannot consider ourselves America's best men when
we are ashamed of and hated for what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia.

we are ashamed of and hated for what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia.

we are ashamed of and hated for what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia.

In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy.

Deja farking vu.

This story will be buried deeper than Sandy Berger.

The media is a joke and anyone who honestly expects them to look critically at Kerry is a dupe.

That settles it. I'm not voting for Kerry.

#49 Rayra:

Great post.

This is going to get very interesting to say the least, alot more interesting the closer it gets to election time. I expect to see a charge of 'its a RNC propaganda machine' being spewed by Kerry and his team any time now...or have they already? Meh.

Hi Zulubaby. I finished that post on biased news photos. Check my site.

I should've known that the [Link: www.mediamatter.org...] site would be LLL drivel.

Yep. Recognize any names on the "About" page?

#76 American Infidel
Great suggestions. Thank you. Lee Harris' book was very good. That was the only one from your list that I had read. I've read other books by Kagan, just not that one.

Anyone want to start a pool on when the "reluctant war hero" hit 40% in the polls? This piece of work is going to break records for flung feces sticking to the wall.

If Kerry was so ashamed in 1971, why is he so damn proud now?

Photoblogger:

Nice job on that biased news photo story. Thanks.

#61 NC

BHC and Rayra -- No doubt, the media has done and will continue to do everything it can to bury this. My question is, why did it take until now for the "Unfit for Command" book to appear?

Well it takes time for people, who know somebody as a POS, to realise that this POS might get as far as Kerry did. Honest people are slow to get the depth of deprivity of somebody who made a carrer of shameless lies, and consequently are slow to act. OTOH, the site of Veterans against Kerry have been around for quite a long time.

I think Kerry's salute was his 'Dukakis moment'. The bunny suit made him seem more like a mammal.

#96 Bleeding

Waitaminute - Kerry served in Vietnam? Huh. Never heard that before.

-ron

#75 Another Thought

Write the media and demand that they cover this story

If I write the media any more about anything I risk stalking charges.

Now I just simmer in my abject contempt for them.

Also worth a read:

But years later, after his election to the Senate, Kerry's medals turned up on the wall of his Capitol Hill office. When a reporter noticed them, Kerry admitted that the medals he had thrown that day were not his. And Kerry's emotional, from-the-heart speech had been carefully crafted by a speechwriter for Robert Kennedy named Adam Walinsky, who also tutored him on how to present it. TV reporters totally ignored another Vietnam veteran, Melville L. Stephens, a former aide to Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, chief of Naval Operations, who that same day urged the Senate not to abandon America's allies in South Vietnam. "Peace for us must not come at the cost of their lives," Stephens said in a speech he wrote himself.

-- "Stolen Valor: How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of its Heroes and its History" pg. 130-137
[Link: ice.he.net...]

#92 - NC

No, unfortunately I don't.

I've been reading LGF for a couple of months. I think its great. The ACT attack today was fantastic.

I am painfully aware that I'm lacking some knowledge, but I'm actively working on changing that.

john5z: thanks!

NC -

I recognized one name - David Brock.

Scumbag.

I've hated Kerry from the moment he entered Congress.

I made up my mind that I was't voting for the Democrat candidate in this election, in December 2000.

#106 IF

Have you seen this ??

I saw a copy today at B&N whilst buying a motorcycle maintenence book, donchaknow.

I didn't have time to look at it. Has anyone read or heard anything about this book?

RightisRight -

Yes, I just saw that book tonight, also. Unfortunately I know nothing about it either. But it was grouped with all the LLL bestsellers, so I thought maybe it was an LLL book.

Photoblogger, great job! I can't believe how much your site has grown. I haven't been there in a while but now it's bookmarked :-)

#87
So you are saying that Iraq is "Biggest nothing in history", deja vu?

Tell that to these guys:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.

110 Frank

That is what I thought at first glance. But read the publisher's notes at the link I posted.

I checked yesterday's threads and didn't see this, so apparently the Wendy's lunch was a totally contrived fake. The real Heinz/Eddy lunch was from the Newport Yacht Club.

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

It was nice of them to descend to our level for a few brief moments. Isn't this called noblese oblige?

Has anyone heard when any of this book's authors have been scheduled to appear on "60 Minutes?"

Sorta OT: Aww jeez, it just dawned on me... Toricelli '02 part deux. Many will remember Toricelli was getting bitch-slapped in a big ethics (bribery) scandal, and bailing out of his Senate race because he couldn't win even in heavily Dem Jersey because of the taint. According to the state constitution, it was too late for the Dems to put up another candidate. Sooo, in true liberal fashion, they went to court and sued to have the rules over-ridden. Sure enough, the court decided the constitution didn't really mean what it said and put Lautenberg on the ticket to take the victory for the Dems.

Now I'm thinking that if it looks quite likely for Kerry to lose, he'll drop out and the Dems will try to appoint another candidate. "Against the rules" you say? See above. Yes, the SCOTUS ain't the NJ court, but the Dems could nominate a sock puppet, and if SCOTUS says no, do a whole 'nother round of "selected not elected."

#109 RightIsRight
Yeah, I saw that book a couple of days ago but dismissed it. I don't know why. I read Barbara Olson's Hell to Pay when it came out. Good book. Wish Olson was around to write now. :(

They should really work on those covers for Hilary. Right now, modernized for the 21st century, she is as what we would say in college, a "double burkha." Of course, I'm too mature to say that now.

Model4 -

That's a possibility, but who would be the substitute? All the other possible candidates are already toast at this point.

from my site:

[Link: www.infidelcowboy.com...]swift justice?

If this gets much play, it may be one of the most devastating political ads ever made. Kerry has repeated ad nauseum how proud he is of his service to his country. He definitely has a right to be so. Unfortunately for him, those who served with him don't seem as proud of his service.

As I said, Kerry has served his country in war. Whether that service merits the claims he makes now about his fitness to lead is the question. The answer for those he served with is overwhelmingly NO. Part of what makes this ad so devastating is the lead in from John Edwards saying you should ask his fellow vets if you want to know what kind of man Kerry is. You have to wonder why they are doing this now, don't you? I think I know the reason.

I have an uncle that lied about his age to join the Marines when he was 17 and was sent off to Vietnam. My biological father was drafted and sent to Vietnam. My uncle came back and was taunted with "babykiller" and various other epithets, which contrary to what some worthless chickenshit claims, is not an urban legend phenomena.

During one of his flashbacks episodes, I was able to piece together that someone in a APC my uncle was in (maybe him) had to shoot a child that was approaching the vehicle with a basket. It was a common tactic to have children do that and then lob a grenade from the basket. Imagine what it does to one's mind to have to shoot a child and then return home to taunts of babykiller.

As for my biological father, he coped with the experience the way many did. He becamed hooked on various drugs available to soldiers there. He came back unfit to be anyone's father or husband. I can't imagine the impact it has on him today knowing that this cost him a relationship with his son and daughter.

These are just two people I know of and a little about the impacts of that war on them. I have spoken to my father maybe 2-3 times in my lifetime that I can remeber, so I don't have much insight into his thinking. My uncle is a different story. He rarely talks about the war, but when he says anything it is about how he would do anything for the people he fought with.

I can imagine what his reaction would be if one of them got themselves shipped home after four months of service. Actually, he probably would have been happy for that guy. Unless he found out later that that guy was accusing him of war crimes and atrocities. I don't pretend to understand the bonds that are formed on the battlefield having never been there, but I can't imagine that this is JUST a political hatchet job. This is clearly and deeply more deeply personal.

#120 Frank IBC: Doesn't matter. Edwards? Maybe Gordon? It would be a hail Mary they knew wouldn't win, but would be on the ballot in case of a "dead girl/live boy" moment for Bush. But the bigger strategy might be that knowing they're going to lose, chance that SCOTUS won't let them break the rules just because they're behind in the poles. Then cite the bogus NJ ruling and get to cry to the masses that they woulda won, but SCOTUS just keeps appointing presidents.

Admittedly it's kinda out there, but I don't think the Dems are in a frame of mind to go down gracefully with a whimper if things really start to look that way.

#116 john5z

No it's called slumming and it is what the "elites" do to find out what it's really like to be human.

Isobella and Frank IBC -- Re: the Media Matters "about" page. "Duncan Black" is the real name of master leftist idiot blogger Atrios. You'll find minor leftist idiot blogger Oliver Willis tucked away down at the very bottom.

Imagine, if you will, the outcry if Rupert Murdoch were to put Charles on his payroll. And yet these two turds get checks from George Soros every week. Incredible, breathtaking hypocrisy.

Hey Frank IBC
check out the allahpundit link at intstapundit

Duncan B. Black

Should be "Duncan Is. OfColor", you racist pigs.

Stontflar -

Ohh...I'm famous!!!

A round for the House!!!

#113 the rhetoric is the same from antifreedom folks

GAC.

Hell, I'll have a double clam digger if Frank is buying. 100 proof Smirnoff please!

#127 Frank I B C

Uh, famous or infamous! :)

On topic, I was in another room around midnight, and Newsradio880, the CBS flagship station was on. At midnight, the lead-off on the national news was all about the video, the men who are doing it, a sound bite, and mention of the book, and the fact that Drudge had it, and that 2 of Hanoi john's medals were allegedly from self inflicted wounds.

If a mainstream network, whose TV unit is so LLL, and this gets on the news, then maybe, just maybe...

I really was amazed, and went to the website. It is not up, nor is it on the network (TV) site...yet.

Linked by InstaPundit:

Life Imitates AllahPundit
By Ed Driscoll · August 04, 2004 07:26 PM · Radical Chic
(HO CHI MIN CITY--AP): Seemingly on a whim, Senator Kerry, having only recently started reading a "Web log" apparently called AllahPundit, decides to re-create one of the "blogger's" Photoshopped parodies of the Senator's campaign posters.

From Allah

More on this as it develops.

(Yes, the description I wrote is satire--but the photo's real (here's a version taken from a slightly different angle), and was found via Little Green Footballs [my entry #28 above]

Thanks Ed!!! :)

This can't be happening.

WASHINGTON – If John Kerry is elected president and doesn't immediately pull U.S. troops out of Iraq, he could be faced with an unusual situation – anti-war protests by a group modeled after the one he led during the Vietnam War.

A new organization, Iraq Veterans Against the War, is just that – an organization inspired by Kerry's own Vietnam Veterans Against the War legacy.

The group was actually conceived last week during Kerry's nominating convention in New York.

And the horror stories these vets are remarkably similar – though not as harrowing – as those told by Kerry in 1971 when he testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Umm, so let me get this straight: A United States Senator, who voted for the war, before he voted not to fund the troops, is now going to encourage this seditious group? So he can win an election? While hostilities are still occurring? He is essentially withdrawing his support of all deployed troops, right? Their cause must be unjust if he doesn't distance himself from these traitors/cowards, right? *spit* While our men and women are overseas risking their lives, so we can sleep safely in our warm beds here and let them battle terror far away and he is not going to denounce this group? That he voted to send? You have got to be f*cking kidding me! He better not count the military vote.

880 in NYC? Arright!!! {high 5's all around}

Sorry...Allah has issued a fatwa against hotlinking by Kufrs like me...here is the Article

--Why didn't this come out before?--

Viet Nam Vets against Kerry tried to get the word out during the primaries, but for some odd reason, the MSM weren't interested.

They were a lunatic fringe, you see.

To my surprise, tomorrow's New York Times has a story about this ad. Anybody want to guess how it's presented?

The advertisement... is the latest gambit of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth...

As opposed to the LLL organizations whose every press release is considered newsworthy by the Times. Those aren't gambits, those are important statements requiring our earnest consideration.

And how is the Kerry response described?

Mr. Kerry's aides circulated an 18-page packet discrediting the veterans group...

Well it sounds so authoritative when you say that the Swift Boat Veterans are now discredited. I was foolish to believe in them in the first place. They must just be in it for the "vanity".

Jax -

I wonder how long ago that article was written?

(Anyone remember the Bob Hope obituary fiasco?)

#136 Jax

Mr. Kerry's aides circulated an 18-page packet discrediting the veterans group...
Well it sounds so authoritative when you say that the Swift Boat Veterans are now discredited. I was foolish to believe in them in the first place. They must just be in it for the "vanity".

Yes. Indeed. An evil military cabal of democrat veterans. The horror.

This ad is the start of a campaign--first as a TV ad, then as a book by Regnery Publishing, and then interviews with national shows like Rush, Hanity, Brit Hume on Fox News, print coverage in the Wall St. Journal, NY Post and Washington Times, and of course the blogs. Are they smart and gutsy enough to make a presentation at Veterans halls nationally?

This will get around. Question is whether W has more potent stuff to follow up.

SO let me get this straight. If 200 or so of Bush's old college chums came out and said that he had sex with a donkey on several occasions, but 12 of them said he didn't and that he was a great college student - would the 200 be "discredited" and Bush seen as being the one that was being attacked by these lackeys?

I don't think so.

Commie media. Squash em all FOX.

I was once a Democrat. I was thrilled when Carter won the White House and thought that if a Demorat was POTUS then we'd go fight the Arabs. A couple of wrecked helicopters and some dead soldiers really woke me up. I thought he was a puss boy after that.

#132 Nuclear Tinkerbell

Isn't that article one of the most damning re Hanoi john? What hurts is to think that our troops in Iraq must have access to computers, and will see this.

I wonder how many Democratic family members will reconsider their vote, knowing that this traitorous bastard who inspired this group took their inspiration from him, and that thier kids, husbands, etc., may be treated like the 'Nam vets were, because of what Hanoi john and Jane did all those years ago?

#136 Jax

Al nyt? /I am shocked, I tell you, just shocked!/ That they had it at all is the surprise.

I guess the coverage later today will be interesting.

This is actually on the CBS news site..network:Al Quaeda Plot Looks Real

I wonder if some of these LLL monbat quasi journalists are actually waking up to the fact that we are in danger, a danger that can kill so many of us, them included...and that Hanoi john is a POS who will destroy us.

I honestly wish that they would declare a state of martial law before the Convention...in NY, the DC, etc.

President Bush must be re-elected, he just must, and in a landslide.

Frank I B C

Can I have your autograph?

I hope these swift boat guys nail Kerry's ass to the boards.

#132 NuclearTinkerbell

"I didn't feel like I was a liberator," said Kelly Dougherty. "I felt like I was an oppressor. We burned a flatbed filled with produce in front of Iraqi people who were starving."

1. Why did you do that?
2. What starving Iraqis? Bush ended the UN oil-for-bribery program.
3. Why did you join the military? My guess: a future political career.

I am John F. Cornholio, and I approve this message.

or, NSFW.

Democrats are hoping their new voter's information manual will educate party members in John Kerry's heroic Vietnam experience and provide a hint of what he has in store for fundamentalist terrorists.

This new publication, "Sword of Dracula," includes instructions on proper chad manipulation, hence the sword reference.

Warning to conservatives: this publication is written in eloquent comic-book style. Those without a well-versed indoctrination in moral equivalency may occasionally confuse just who the "greatest war criminal of all time" refers to.

#145 aaron
LOL! I just found out what a cornhole (Cornholio) was last night! My husband had to explain it. I always thought that Beavis was doing some obtuse Spanish character from some book I'd never read. For ten years I've been meaning to read Don Quixote for nothing!

#142 NY Nana
It makes me sick in the gut to think what it must be like over there for them, desperately wanting to know that their suffering is for a reason, that they will be appreciated for their tremendous effort when they return, if they return. They are so brave. I swear if I ever see any of them spat on or disrespected, I will gladly cooperate with the officers that have to arrest me for mauling the offender.

I don't think Kerry looks at it in terms of nine hundred people and their loved ones paying the price for our security. He sees the "big picture" and thinks of the military as a game piece to maneuver in order to attain his goal. He may be a truly soul-less human.

Nuke Tink

[For ten years I've been meaning to read Don Quixote for nothing! ]

Hell, I'd at least charge 300 bux. It would take a few hours to read that book. ;)

#144 Beagle

"I didn't feel like I was a liberator," said Kelly Dougherty. "I felt like I was an oppressor. We burned a flatbed filled with produce in front of Iraqi people who were starving."

1. You are supposed to be a soldier. Liberator is a bonus, if you can earn it. Pretty in touch with your touchy-feely side for a veteran. Actually, I don't give a sh*it about how you feel. Do your job with some dignity, you sniveling embarrassment. Who do you think you are, John Kerry?

2. Why did you burn the food? Were you following an order? Was it an illegal order, if so, why did you follow an illegal order?

3. Have you been discharged honorably, Miss? Where is the proof? If you are still serving, you are in a lot of trouble. If you are a veteran, you are giving aid and comfort to the enemies of liberty and should immediately move out of my beloved country and relinquish all military benefits for disrespecting your fellow soldiers who are serving in a hostile theater.

Why did this person join the military? Did she think it was all marching, parades and practice? Was it for education benefits?
Does she understand what a war is?

#152 Rayra

So they are living up to expectations. So predictable. *SNRK*

Rayra, I read the site and Kerry's reviews sucked ass.
He' d be more suited to running a Navy laundry.

Everyone should read John Moore's several comments at Roger Simon's blog, explaining some of the ad's backstory.

#121 infidel_cowboy

Damn right this is personal. I went along with what Kerry said in 1971 and 2 million got killed.

Turns out everything Kerry said in '71 was lies.

In Nam contra Kerry we were the good guys.

And now Kerry is trying to pull this stunt again. Wasn't once in his lifetime enough?

Son of a bitch mfing bastard.

5 out of 7 curse words (4 out of 6 depending on how you count) in a sentence means a Navy veteran is angry. Two out of six is normal conversation. Three out of six moderately annoyed.

Calibrate your meters.

There's a chasm between the vets who spoke at Kerry's convention and those behind Swift Boat Veterans for Truth's website and video. Here's my take from cross-examining author and SBVFT spokesman John O'Neill in a 1992 jury trial.

#83,

I'm conflicted.

Keys is a Republican - Good.
Obama is a Socialist - Bad

Keys hates the drug war - Good.
Obama likes it - Bad

Keys is a Cultural Conservative - Bad.
Obama is a Live and Let Live guy - Good

Keys on the war - Good.
Obama on the war - Bad

Keys probably gets my vote. And then I'm going to have to spend a lot of time in opposition.

Politics

I just sent $100.00.

Let's send Kerry back to Boston. Better yet, let's send him to Hanoi

For me its quite simple at present: For those that ‘gush’ about Kerry: I see 9 men having served directly under Kerry who have a vested interest in promoting Kerry and protecting his reputation because in doing so they protect their own.

On the other hand, I see 19 men who have no direct vested interest in Kerry but who served alongside him. 12 say Kerry was unfit for command because of their own direct observations and only 1 of those 19 currently supports Kerry.

Who am I going to believe? Those with a vested interest in protecting their reputations or those with none?

The other quite telling aspect I see is the NYTurd article. They certainly went to lengths to bring out campaign contributions and purported affiliations of those associated with the vets opposing Kerry but where did they also report the contributions and affiliations of those who are support Kerry, those making his advertisements and claims…..hmmm? Lets see their names and numbers. Moveon? Tides? Soro’s?

Without doubt there’s going to be a huge campaign to discredit the men opposing Kerry, the Nyturd was only the beginning.

Wah!

Cant watch or listen - damn firewalls! Can't even download QuickTime.

Nutz.

:(

# 6 ploome hineni--
I have friends like this. People on normal days seem very bright and have studied complex subjects and work in difficult jobs. Yet they will come out with this
junk, same thing...

One long time friend, viet nam vet as scout trainer, for 14 months, will vote for Kerry, even tho he really thinks Bush is doing a pretty good job.
Why? because you have to spread power around and it is time to let the other party have a crack at things.
All the rhetoric is escalating so high, he says, that it is time to bring it down and turn over the govt to the donks so there won't be violence, to calm things down.
Really...he says this tripe...I stay away from all this goofiness.

Guess who’s redirecting traffick?

SEE: [Link: www.swiftboatvets.com...]
(also .net and .org)

Tricky, tricky. Must be a little nervous about this.

Miss Trixie

Cant watch or listen - damn firewalls! Can't even download QuickTime.

Look at the privacy settings in your firewall program: you probably have to accept cookies and drop the Ad blocking

I'm sure that most of the media will barely mention it, and when they do, they will stretch as far as possible in trying to find ways to discredit it. Certainly the opposite of how they treated Fahrenheit 9/11. However, tv stations aren't proud and airtime can be bought. This is why I think that it is very important to make a donation, if you can spare it, to help get this ad shown as many times as possible, to the biggest number of people in battleground states as possible.

I did make a donation, but don't understand why I had to give my occupation and employer. Is this considered to be a political donation? Is so, then why is it different than MoveOn.org?

Odin

Look at the privacy settings in your firewall program: you probably have to accept cookies and drop the Ad blocking

I am electronically-challenged and honestly have no clue where to find the firewall program. I'm running Windows 2000.

Any hints?

Pretty please?

Miss Trixie:

If you are at work it's probably a corporate firewall. That would mean that you can't do anything about it.

#167 Ghost:

I did make a donation, but don't understand why I had to give my occupation and employer. Is this considered to be a political donation? Is so, then why is it different than MoveOn.org?

I don't know the answer. But one possibility could be...someone looks up all the donors party affiliations and says, "See. I told you the Repubs were behind this."

I can't load the swiftvet site at all now. Is it down?

Gargamel,

Yep. You're right.

Dammit.

I can't wait to show my Mom and my friends who are sitting on the fence the swiftvet site. I think it will change some of there minds.

I've been working on my mom for quite some time and I think I'm finally making some headway. She is a lifelong Democrat.

mornin' folks...

When's the book hit the shelves??

Don't know if this thread is still going , but my thoughts:

This ad must be run in my market and all others in toss up states. The lefty musicians for Kerry are doing their big tour here, so let's counter with real people.

I admire these guys so much. They are going to be smeared and dragged through the mud by the Democratic hate machine for doing this. They must know that will happen.

There are a lot of veterans who are union boys so tend to vote Democratic. Perhaps this may make a difference, but look for the media to ignore the issues being brought up here.

#174

I think it is August 15th. Check Amazon.com where the book had been very high on their bestsellers even though it hasn't been released yet.

Actually, I think the site is down. I don't think it is a firewall issue.

McCain has weighed in. What a smug, elitist, a$$hole.

Either a soldier has a right to speak out or he doesn't. We've heard John F. Kerry jamming his Vietnam service down our throats for months. HE BROUGHT IT UP and HE TALKS ABOUT IT ad nauseum.

But now that a group of Swift Boat COMMANDERS provides another perspective, backed up by facts and eye-witness accounts, and we are supposed to dismiss them?

Shame on McCain.

Nice to see that Little Green Republican Shills (LFGR) is up and running.

Congratulations Charles!

SMEAR.

Things are getting worse - the right-wing smear job on Bill Clinton (to be documented in a new film called The Hunting of the President) at least didn't start until after Clinton was elected.

These vets are either being used as pawns, or they are part of the new Republican hit team. Shame on you, SallyVee, for calling shame on the one Republican (McCain) willing to call these scum out on it.

KERRY LIED . . . while good men died

A gathering of Vietnam veterans from across America

Where: Upper Senate Park, Washington, D.C. It is easy to get to, shady and pretty, with a great view of the Capitol dome in back of the speaker's platform. THIS IS A NEW LOCATION AS OF 7/17/04

When: Sunday, Sept 12, 2004 2:00-4:00 PM (EDT)

Why: To tell the truth about Vietnam veterans. To counter the lies told about Vietnam veterans by John Kerry

All Vietnam veterans and their families and supporters are asked to attend. Other veterans are invited as honored guests.

[Link: www.kerrylied.com...]

Former U.S. Senator, and former POW Jeremiah Denton also has a few things to say about John Kerry:

[Link: www.vnsfvetakerry.com...]

Gordon -

Er, are you saying the charges against Kerry aren't true?

Gordo is starting to seethe. Poor guy, he can feel defeat swallowing up his party...

A slick 60 second ad with 20 people quickly calling John Kerry a liar (and nothing else) is nothing but political pornography.

As for the substance behind this political porn, we need an in-depth investigation. I suspect it will come down to Kerry's buddies saying one thing, and the guys in this ad saying another.

#78

The Manchurian Candidate, and the red queen is the ketchup baroness.

[John Kerry] is the kindest, bravest, warmest most wonderful Human Being I've ever known in my entire life.

/from the original MC

#185

As for the substance behind this political porn, we need an in-depth investigation.

Very good idea Gordon. Best place to start would be for JFK to authorize the DOD to release his military service records.

Why don't you ask him to.

Many seem to be asking why the enlisted crewmen of Kerry's boat would support him.

Here's a fact that many don't know. On the day Kerry received the Silver Star. He put his crew in for medals also. 2 Bronze Stars w/combat V and 3 Navy Commendation medals w/combat V were awarded based on Kerry's lies in addition to his Silver Star.

People, this was group medalgate! This was the most highly decorated boat in the history of the war for 1 action. It was a minor fire fight against about 20 local VC by 3 boats (18 crewmen) and about 70 South Vietnamese troops on the boats.

And yes, I'm a member of swiftvets and a decorated riverine sailor. We are not "shills" for Republican Party. We are not Pro-Bush. We're simply Anti-Kerry for the reasons stated at [Link: www.swiftvets.com...]

Their site is not coming up for me anymore. Must be the VRWC.

#188 RiverRat:

We are not "shills" for Republican Party.

Yes you are, even if you don't mean to be. Instead of releasing a detailed account of why Kerry didn't deserve his medals, your group releases a slick and vicious "hit piece," with no substance except a bunch of somewhat distinguished gentlemen one by one calling Kerry a liar.

You are being used.

A slick 60 second ad with 20 people quickly calling John Kerry a liar (and nothing else) is nothing but political pr0nography.

As for the substance behind this political pr0n, we need an in-depth investigation. I suspect it will come down to Kerry's buddies saying one thing, and the guys in this ad saying another.

Translation:

"Since I can't disprove the charges, I will use the rhetorical technique of Ad Ad Hominem." (attempting to deflect a legitimate criticism, by the false claim that it is a "personal attack")

20 people quickly calling John Kerry a liar (and nothing else)

Sounds like you didn't bother to listen to it. They said a LOT more than that.

And why all the "pr0n" references? The ol' palm getting restless?

If nothing else, this explains why he was so willing to throw away said medals.

Chill out Gordo -

If this plays out, it just may bring your man Howard Dean one step closer to the Presidency.

Instead of releasing a detailed account of why Kerry didn't deserve his medals, your group releases a slick and vicious "hit piece,"

There is a detailed account on the swiftvets.com site, which I would link to except the site won't load right now.

Gordon,

Shut up and read the book. The detailed accounts are there...you might try [Link: www.wintersoldier.com...] too.

{CLANGG!!}

And it's Gordon and The Straw Man... Gordon takes a lame left jab at the Straw Man... Gordon takes a girlie-man upper cut at The Straw Man... Gordon gets a few hits on the Straw Man... things are looking grim for The Straw Man... The Straw Man... wait a minute folks, The Straw Man is starting to perk up... the Straw Man gets a good hit to Gordon's head... another hard blow connects with Gordon's head... another... and a viscious uppercut... uppercut by The Straw man... KABUNK!!! THUDD!!!

Gordon's on the mat, ladies and gentleman!!! Counting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 {CLANGG!!}

A major upset tonight!!! The Straw Man has KO'ed Gordon!!!

RiverRat

I clicked on your nick and got redirected to: [Link: newnet.qsrch.com...]

By the way, Thank you for your service in Vietnam.

I think this kind of attack will create a backlash against Bush. A much better approach, in my opinion, is to say about Kerry, "Yes, he served bravely in Vietnam, but look at his record in the senate. This man's defense policies are weak." Unless someone comes out with some totally damning, absolutely proveable, and readily understandable evidence against Kerry (i.e. he bribed someone into giving him his purple hearts, he did something terrible to endanger the lives of his crewmates, he never even went ot Vietnam and made the whole thing up :-), etc) then this will just look like an underhanded smear campaign set up by Bush, and smear campaigns tend to backlash unless they present facts that are damning, easy to understand, and proveable (Ted Kennedy and Chappequidick, etc). Not only will it appear as a smear campaign, it will look extra dirty and dishonorable because the main thrust is an attack on a man's military service, which is one of the things you almost NEVER touch. A more general reason why these attacks are a bad idea is that, by saying Kerry's superiors wrongly awarded him purple hearts, one is also calling into question all the purple hearts one by our soldiers in Vietnam and the superiors who award them. After all, the general claim here is that the military allows people to falsify their combat experience and rewards them when they don't deserve it, just because their father is a diplomat. That's a pretty tall claim and if true, it would belittle the obvious sacrifices of hundreds of thousands of people.

I think this kind of attack will create a backlash against Bush.

You have it exactly backwards - it is actually the inevitible backlash resulting from the Democrats' attempts to smear Bush's military service.

it will look extra dirty and dishonorable because the main thrust is an attack on a man's military service, which is one of the things you almost NEVER touch.

Even if said "military service" is cowardly and fraudulent?

That's a pretty tall claim and if true, it would belittle the obvious sacrifices of hundreds of thousands of people.

Wrong again - it is Kerry's shameful performace that belittles their sacrifice, not the act of calling attention to it.

#199 Frank IBC: your myopic reply is funny - you look in a mirror and see a shining knight instead of a stinky rat.

You are the mirror image of the MoveOn Bush-haters. You are an ignoble descendant of the Clinton smearers of the 1990's. You are a great example of what's wrong with American politics today. You can't just defeat a political enemy in the marketplace of ideas, you must utterly destroy him (or her - hello Hillary) and leave a charcoal stain where the candidate used to be.

You should be ashamed of yourself. And the Swift Boat veterans, at least those who weren't in on planning this smeary hit piece, are being used to further destroy the last shreds of civility and honesty in our political system.

My other question is whether Charles is merely a dupe/pawn of the Republican party operatives, or whether he actually has become one with them.

Paluski,

The Dems are tone deaf when it comes to vets. Duty, HONOR, country. Semper Fi. etc.

It will backfire only if it is false.

If it is true it will be more damning for Kerry than Clinton's anti-war stuff.

If it is true it will be seen as Kerry cheapening the service of the real heros, the wounded and the dead. It will be seen that Kerry is a dishonorable man. (you didn't know that from his voting record?) He has dishonored those who gave their limbs and lives.

Kerry made his service the center piece of his campaign. War stories in a bar. Fine. Let us check the record and see if the story matches the history.

LOL at Gordon's attempt of seeking the moral high ground.

[Link: www.sinfest.net...]

My other question is whether Gordon is merely a dupe/pawn of the Democrat party operatives, or whether he actually has become one with them.

Louis Letson: “I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury.”

[Link: www.command-post.org...]

#200

Translation: "I STILL can't refute their arguments, so I will continue use the rhetorical device known as Ad Ad Hominem."

Yawn...

Oh, and you forgot to say:

"But but but...Bush was AWOL!"

Loser.

Either Kerry is a war criminal (like so many others in his day - he claims) as he testified in ‘71 or he is not.

If he is a war criminal (as he claimed) he should be prosecuted. There is no statute of limitations on war crimes.

If not he is a liar who severely damaged his nation and the lives of millions in Vietnam with his lies.

Which is it?

I thought Democrats detested war criminals and liars. Here is your chance to get one or the other. Same man. How convenient.

#199 Frank IBC

I don't think you really respond to my points. Rather, you seem to twist them around and make your own.
--First off, I'm not talking about Bush's military service or Democrats' questioning of it. I think that was shameful of them to do, and I don't think it helped them much, if at all. That doesn't address this new issue, however. Whether or not these new attacks on Kerry hurt him or help him will be a function of how people react to these attacks, nothing else.
--In response to your second point, I'll say again: a person's military record is something you almost NEVER touch. Clearly, if you're attacking it, you already think it's cowardly and fraudulent, but my point still stands. Analogy: "Summiting K2 on the first try without oxygen is something people almost NEVER do." "Even if it's the most experienced, strongest mountaineer in the world?" "That person might do it, but my point still stands."
You're just not responding to my point head on.
--As for your third point, if Kerry's alleged cowardice and fraud would shame only himself. He's such a distinctive, well-known public figure today that the public no longer views him as Mr. Average Vietnam Vet and would not associate his actions with the actions of anyone else. On the other hand, if it turned out the system for rewarding soldiers was corrupted once, it may have been corrupted many times. 

#202 M. Simon

I personally don't object to examining someone's war record if he makes it the centerpiece of his political campaign. Truth is important, at least in theory. The most important issue, however, in terms of public opinion, is not whether or not these allegations are true, it's how the public reacts to the allegations. Certainly, it's worse for Kerry if the allegations are true than if they're false, but for them to do real damage, the public has to consider fully the meaning of the allegations and accept them as truth. For instance, no one heard about Ted Kennedy and Chappequidick and said, "What a shameful attack on Ted," because they immediately understood and believed the allegations and thought worse of Ted for what he did. In this case, however, we are dealing with a more abstract concept than someone driving a car off a bridge while drunk and abandoning a woman to die. Instead, we're talking about whether or not someone displayed courage while in a boat thirty years ago on the other side of the world. It's harder to identify with that or even to imagine what it really means. Without some sort of image, soundbite, or indisputable government record to get past that hurdle and prove the allegations, I think the public will immediately reject the allegations as a smear campaign without truly considering them.

Of course, I could be wrong. The public could react in disgust toward Kerry, in which case all of your statements would come true. I just don't see it happening that way, given the nature of the current attacks.

One last thing: I totally agree with you about Kerry having a dishonorable voting record in the Senate. Whether that dishonor extends past his political life into his life in combat is unclear. How we act when the bullets are flying past our heads is not necessarily how we act when we are trying to get votes.