LGF

-RetweetTariq Ramadan's Visa Revoked

Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 8:04:25 am PDT

Tariq Ramadan, the so-called “moderate intellectual” Muslim who had been invited to spread propaganda at Notre Dame University, has had his visa revoked by the Department of Homeland Security—but the Chicago Tribune, in a stunningly biased article that makes their sympathies very clear, says “some Jewish groups” are to blame. (Hat tip: Ethel Carol.)

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security has revoked a visa granted to Tariq Ramadan, a renowned Islamic scholar who is accused by some Jewish groups of being a Muslim extremist, effectively barring him from a teaching post he was to begin this week at the University of Notre Dame.

Ramadan, a rising academic star in Europe who is regarded by Islamic scholars and experts as a Muslim moderate, was appointed to teach Islamic philosophy and ethics in South Bend through the Joan B. Kroc Institute for International Peace Studies. University classes begin Tuesday.

A resident of Switzerland, Ramadan was given a visa in February that permitted him to work in the United States, according to government officials. That decision was reversed July 28.

Notre Dame officials said the university was working with the U.S. government and hoped to have the decision reversed. In a statement issued to the Tribune, the university said no reason was given for the visa revocation.

“Professor Ramadan is a distinguished scholar and a voice for moderation in the Muslim world,” the university said. “We know of no reason his entry should be prevented.”

Kelly Shannon, a spokeswoman for the State Department’s consular affairs section, said Monday that Ramadan initially received a visa after being cleared by Homeland Security. But Homeland Security later reversed its decision, ordering the State Department to revoke the visa.

According to Shannon, Ramadan’s visa was revoked under a section of the U.S. immigration law dramatically changed by the USA Patriot Act, the controversial legislation approved after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

In addition to allowing the U.S. to revoke a visa from an alleged member of a terrorist organization, the new section authorizes visa revocation because of someone’s political activities if those efforts are seen as endorsing terrorism. Visas also can be revoked because of membership in social groups or other organizations that have offered a “public endorsement of acts of terrorist activity” that could undermine U.S. “efforts to reduce or eliminate terrorist activities.”

UPDATE at 8/24/04 3:59:23 pm:

For more on Tariq Ramadan, don’t miss Hugh Fitzgerald’s comment at Dhimmi Watch.

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219 comments

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1 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:05:40am

Leave it to an apostate school like Notre Dame to invite a jihadi to come speak.

2 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:06:14am

Or teach.

3 Colt  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:06:52am

Jewish groups - is there anyone they won't smear with facts?

4 GW  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:08:30am

'Islamic philosophy and ethics'

haha...that's funny

5 Dirk Diggler  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:08:34am

Who is Tariq Ramadan again? There are so many of these nutbags and jihadi apologists, I get them confused sometimes.

6 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:09:27am

I have a friend who graduated from Notre Dame in '49. He sent them a letter years ago, telling them they weren't getting any more of his money, since they've become of sewer of liberalism.

7 TalkinKamel  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:10:30am

Jewish groups---If they did have anything to do with this. . .

THEN MY HAT'S OFF TO THEM! THANKS, GUYS, AND KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

:>)

/And I only wish the rest of society shared their sensible attitude towards Moslem extremists and would-be jihadis.

8 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:10:41am
9 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:12:24am

They say that this is is

CONTROVERSIAL LEGISLATION !!!

What is not controversial is that media are full of commies who hate to see us defend ourselves.

10 Beagle  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:12:46am
Joan B. Kroc Institute for International Peace Studies.

Boycott McDonalds! Irony of ironies, the Europeans hate McDonalds, the jihad-supporting fast food outlet.

11 Earl  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:15:44am

"...Ramadan, a rising academic star in Europe who is regarded by Islamic scholars and experts as a Muslim moderate."

And viewed by any thinking Westerner as a taqiyyah-spewing islamist apologist.

12 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:16:40am

The Joan B. Kroc Institute for International Peace Studies? Puh-leeze. Freaking P&Js. Can you say Martin Sheen? CISPES? Liberation Theology?

Here's a little jewel from their website (an article in Foreign Affairs magazine):

Containing Iraq: Sanctions Worked

13 tom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:18:30am

does anyone have any links to articles about Ramadan being an apologist?

14 hepcat  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:19:53am

Yeah, blame it on Professor Chanukah.

15 Axiom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:20:34am

Do you oppose Tariq Ramadan's visa to "teach" at Notre Dame?

Are you not Jewish?

Let the Chicago Tribune here your voice. Because they obviously are not aware you exist.

ctc-TribLetter@Tribune.com

16 Colt  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:21:23am

OT: From Debka:

Israel’s attorney general recommends government consider accepting Geneva Convention governing treatment of civilians in occupied territories, while allowing for exercise of security responsibility.

All Israeli governments have rejected treaty reference to “occupied territory” as inapplicable to West Bank and Gaza Strip over which there was no recognized sovereignty prior to 1967. Nonetheless Israel accepted convention de facto.

17 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:21:51am
18 selpaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:22:08am

Cry me a river. Poor Tariq Ramadan's visa has been taken from him.

At least the bastard got one!!!

19 Colt  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:22:18am

BTW, sounds like the NYT was stirring: State Dept: Israeli settlement activity must stop

A senior US official on Monday refuted reports in the New York Times last week that Washington had given its tacit approval to continued expansion in existing West Bank settlements.

"I noticed in that article that it said the Secretary [of State Colin Powell] gave a green light, and that certainly does not comport with my understanding. We need to make progress towards a freeze on settlement activity, and that is something we're working on. Settlement activity in the occupied territories must stop," State Department deputy spokesman Adam Ereli told reporters in Washington.

20 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:24:20am
21 Axiom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:25:17am

#6 Ward Cleaver

Notre Dame has lost a lot of contributors. I know many of them and they are putting their money into a new Catholic University they hope will replace Notre Dame.

[Link: www.avemaria.edu...]

The move has pissed off a lot the feminazi "Catholics" and has them creating boycott campaigns against wealthy contributors to Ave Maria. They're trying to intimidate the contributors into not supporting Ave Maria.

I didn't know that Notre Dame was bringing in Tariq Ramadan, but it's a terrible sign in a long chain of events that Notre Dame is increasingly migrating to dhimmitude.

22 Mr Pol  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:27:38am

#13 tom

Check the Simon Wiesenthal Center. Or read Jack-Alain Leger's Tartuffe fait Ramadan. Or ask the Algerian gov't about the links between Ramadan and the FIS.

23 Rob from the schlob  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:28:04am

#13 tom

If you know french, this one is very good:

Bernard-Henri Levy on Tariq Ramadan

24 smoot  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:28:24am

Chicago Tribune is probably the most anti-Israel newspaper I have ever seen. In one paper I read, they described Palestinian fighters passionately defending a bomb factor and had a drawing of a Jewish star made out of barb wire on the opinions page. What a rag.

25 amir  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:28:50am

Tariq was featured at dhimmiwatch.
Tariq Ramadan: reformer or theocrat in disguise?

26 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:29:23am
appointed to teach Islamic philosophy and ethics

How long does it take to teach Death to infidels!?

So that's the philosophy course. Let's see, moslem ethics:

Lie as much as you can so islam can spread and kill infidels!

Hey Notre Dame, if you want I can do the course - it'll take about 30 seconds.

27 Pitiricus  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:30:23am

Thanks the Lord...

Tariq Ramadan is the brother of Hani Ramadan who came out defending the sharia and the stoning of adulterers in Le Monde (Sorry der Sturmer)...

He is the grandson of the founder of the Muslim Brothers in Egypt!

28 tom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:32:39am

"He is ... the 42–year–old grandson of Hassan al–Banna, founder (in 1928) of the Muslim Brotherhood"

That speaks volumes. Thanks for the link ploome hineni.

29 Mr Pol  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:33:52am

#13 tom

Actually, the best thing you can do is read Tariq Ramadan's book les musulmans d'Occident et l'avenir de l'Islam. After reading it, you will realize he's an extremist even among Jihadniks.

30 Mr Pol  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:35:49am

#26 Thom

Teaching effective taqqiyah takes some time...

31 D.C. Watson  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:38:19am

One less Islamist terd in the punch bowl. Back to the sand pit with him, so the camels can cover him up.

32 MJ  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:38:45am

Here's "Tribune Watch", a site which monitors the Jew hatred of the Chicago Tribune:

[Link: www.tribunewatch.com...]

Of course, no site can accurately monitor the antisemitism of the Chicago Tribune since it's almost daily.

33 Teacake!  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:39:17am
34 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:40:08am
35 amir  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:40:11am

I couldn't find a smoking gun on the internet linking ariq to terrorism. Luckily the Department of Homeland Security has other sources other than internet.

36 angeles  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:40:21am

The Chicago Tribune's editorial staff and some of their major newswriters are not only antisemitic but also do not want to be bothered with facts about Jews/Israel. Last I heard (a couple of years ago) after some really bad Tribune reporting, Jewish community leaders and rabbis attempted a "dialogue", inviting editors out to synagogues, etc. This has apparently been like spitting in the wind. Nevertheless, it needs to continue. I suggest email them directly. Their contact information should still be on their web page.

37 Beagle  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:41:22am

FU, Chicago neo-Nazi Tribune. This non-Jew is royally pissed. My letter, dashed off in anger. I hope some of you can do better.

I'm disgused by your anti-Semitic hit piece, here:

[Link: www.chicagotribune.com...]

Many non-Jewish Americans, including myself are aware of taqiyyah -- the Muslim practice of lying to spread the faith. Of course they don't send honest brokers to talk to Americans. Please, learn something before doing any more neo-Nazi propaganda, blaming problems on unnamed Jewish groups.

[Link: bahai-library.com...]

"Many customs and traditions that are prevalent amongst the followers of various Islamic sects today are not based on the fundamental principals of the Islamic belief. Rather they have gradually been instilled in the sub-culture during centuries. Taqiyyah or dissimulation of one's true belief has been a common practice amongst the followers of Ismailiya, Wahhabiya, Haydari, Nemati and Shaykhi schools of thought during the Qajar era.[2]"

"Dissimulation" means lying. When will any of you media rubes wake up? Have you ever considered questioning a Muslim the way you do other people who make outrageous claims?

Why do they behead people, for example? It's in the Koran. Why do they hate Jews? They are termed "descendants of pigs and apes." What do Muslims think about leaving the socio-political system (not a religion) called Islam? Apostates are punishible by death.

Ask a Muslim to define taqiyyah, just once. I dare you.

38 selpaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:42:26am

27 Pitiricus
Quite a pedigree!


24 smoot
In many ways the Trib is worse than NYT's.

19 Colt
Yah, the little FAKE crumb of bread they threw us caused the arab street to become angry. BTW: To tell Jews they can grow within their own confines reminds me a bit of Ghetto's passed. Frankly, it leaves a very sour taste in my mouth.

Mind you, all this to kiss the ass of those who wish to destroy us. All one has to do is look around and see how rapidly those arab settlements spring up and one has to wonder whose side those who claim to be on our side, are.

39 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:42:46am
40 Teacake!  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:43:17am

Thank you so much ploome hineni. That means a lot to me, I've had a very difficult month.

41 kelly  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:43:54am

off topic but worth reading:

AHMEDABAD, India (Reuters) - An Indian man charged over the train torching that triggered Gujarat's Hindu-Muslim bloodshed two years ago has asked for bail so he can go home to have sex with his wife, court officials said on Tuesday.

Firozkhan Zafarkhan's two-page handwritten application to the court in the state's main city, Ahmedabad (news - web sites), says he and his wife are suffering mental trauma because their physical needs have not been met for such a long time.

He wants to be allowed out of jail for 30 days. Zafarkhan, a Muslim, said his religion and India's conservative culture forbid him from having sex with anyone but his wife.

He is charged under a tough anti-terrorism law with being part of a mob that torched a train in the Gujarat city of Godhra in February 2001, burning alive 59 Hindu pilgrims, including many women and children.

That incident triggered days of communal violence, India's worst in a decade, in which human rights groups say more than 2,000 people, mainly Muslims, were burned and hacked to death.

the entire story is here

42 sharona  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:44:12am

Hence why this Chicagoan (exactly in the demographic they are losing to the Chicago Sun-Times and to Internet media sources) no longer buys the Glibune. Fundamentally unserious newspaper, which shall be receiving a couple of e-mails from me regarding this and the "Editor for Kerry" front-pager this past Sunday.

43 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:45:57am
44 Teacake!  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:46:50am

All this knee-jerk, islamic ass-kissing seems to me like transference/projection of the white guilt syndrom that people like Jesse Jackson hypnotized America into. The person of color is off the hook for anything and everything because the evil European has oppressed the entire world for so long.

45 amir  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:47:41am

An interview with tariq at ha-aretz

My fellow Muslims, we must fight anti-Semitism

46 Teacake!  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:48:24am

Thanks Ploome !

47 angeles  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:49:36am

OT:

Re: that posting on Ghandi's grandson, here is a response from a Christian Zionist. (I got this as an email, so am posting it as such). Note for those prone to the massive force solution ( I count myself among them but it is not alway the answer), that this responder sees the Israeli response as tactics, not fear, and not lack of resources:

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:11:35 +0200 Show All Headers
From: Women in Green [Add | Block]
Subject: Grandson of Mahatma Ghandi by Jan Willem van der Hoeven
To: wfit2@womeningreen.org

Grandson of Mahatma Ghandi

I am shocked about you! This is the way you follow your grandfather's example, living in the safety of that great land of the United States of America, coming for the first time to Israel and the Middle East, having already made up your apparently anti-Semitic mind to criticize Israel for defending those still left of her people?

What do you want Israel then to do in the face of such aggression from the days of the Grand Mufti, and Palestinian leader, Amin Al Husseini, who urged Hitler to speed up the final solution - and Gamal Abdul Nasser who announced at the beginning of the six day war that he was going to drive the Israeli nation into the Mediterranean Sea, until the present-day despots - who are not accountable even to their own people - from Arafat to Nasrallah, and from Bashar Al-Assad to the Iranian leaders, all of whom with the most deadly weapons of mass destruction intent, like Hitler and Nasser, on Israel's final destruction. As even Arafat himself once said in an interview in one of the Dutch papers: "Peace for us means the destruction of Israel".

And now you come as a follower of your grandfather, committed to non-violence like him and already take sides against the very nation that up to this very day has been the victim more than any other nation of the most despicable violence that can be imagined.

You thus cause great shame to yourself and the memory of your grandfather!

What do you want Israel to do? Bomb whole Arab cities like the U.S. did with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, with 250.000 dead - to have finally peace with Japan? Or as the Allied forces did with the cities of Germany, causing innumerable civilian deaths to win the war with Nazi Germany? Or the way Israel does it: unlike any other nation - with pin pricking precision taking out the chieftains of terror one by one, if possible without civilian casualties AND BUILDING A WALL as a non-violent way to defend herself against cruel senseless killers and terrorists whose ways you cannot really change with all your rhetoric, even if you will stay in Ramallah for years to plead with them!

So you go back after your short and already disgraceful upcoming visit here to America which fights her wars a lot more aggressively even at this moment in Iraq and Afghanistan than the self-critical Israelis do. Will we hear then your voice of concern against the fence your Indian nation has been building against Kashmir - or other nations that have erected this basic defense themselves or will you settle down to your easy nonviolent lifestyle in America - after having done your despicable anti-Semitic stint here in the Middle East? May God have mercy upon you, Mr. Arun Ghandi!

Jerusalem, August 22, 2004

Jan Willem van der Hoeven, Director
International Christian Zionist Center


===
Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green)
POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel
Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380
mailto:michael@womeningreen.org
[Link: www.womeningreen.org...]

To make a contribution via our secure server or through Paypal, go to: [Link: host5.apollohosting.com...]

To subscribe to the Women in Green list,
please send a blank email message to:
list4-subscribe@womeningreen.org

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please send a blank email message to:
list4-unsubscribe@womeningreen.org

48 Mr Pol  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:49:56am

#45 amir

Taqqiyah

49 Norwegian kafir  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:51:38am

Senior Malaysian cleric: Marital rape is Islamic

Women's groups in Malaysia have reacted angrily after one of the country's most senior Islamic clerics opposed calls for new laws to protect women from rape within marriage. Malaysia's official human rights commission had asked parliament to make marital rape a crime.

However, the chief cleric or mufti of the state of Perak said that such a move is against Islam. According to the mufti of Perak, women are subject to their husband's desires.

50 zulubaby  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:52:23am

The Jews are being blamed again? What a surprise! I'm only too happy to take the credit blame for this one.

51 applesweet  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:54:54am

At least he's honest in advocating the old moslem way of theft of ideas, culture and history.

whatever does not oppose our values we should take up and add to our legacy”.

This snake's skin is just a lot 'prettier'.

52 Beagle  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:55:51am

#48 Mr Pol

And you know it's taqiyyah due to his unwillingness to expressly condemn the Koranic verses which are clearly anti-Semitic. He's another expert, and I mean expert, taqiyyah artist. They stay stealthy until they have enough converts, and pop out enough babies, to really crack down. But to their credit, they've written the plan down, distributed it worldwide, and the West has yet to grasp its stupidity in the face of it.

When will the media ask some tough questions of a Muslim? I'm waiting, but not holding my breath. How hard is it to find and online Koran? I did it three years ago.

53 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:57:00am

Oh, now I remember this turd. He was on the BBC on some talk show the name of which eludes me now (the interviewer was an older guy with white hair iirc).

He really is smooth. He's one of the best taqqiyah artists around. He is, predictably, one of those "We condemn terrorism but..." types.

54 Luigi  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 6:58:37am

OT -- Today's Chuckle

I just got my laugh for today. I went into the news for the first time all day and saw the CNN site with a big headline reading:

Aide: Al-Sadr ready to negotiate


I won't link since they change frequently.

55 amir  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:01:08am

Mr Pol

I admit that this is the first I heard of taqqiyah.
Your comments at LGF came up second on a google search.

It appears that all Muslims are by definition extremist. If they speak moderately, than that's taqqiyah.

It seems that they can't win.

56 Axiom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:02:03am

Thom: Did Tariq specifically condemn Hamas, IJ, Hizb'allah?

To me this is very important because the three groups have always been in engaged in wars against Jews. Their sugar daddy sponsors in Iraq, S.A. and Syria like to say they are defending Muslims, but the three groups have explicit language, actions and history that targets JEWS. Condemning the acts of these groups is the first step the Muslim and the Arab must take in confronting anti-semitism.

57 Melissa  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:02:59am

My personal thanks to the VZC (Vast Zionist Conspiracy), Homeland Security Department, and Tom Ridge for keeping this bomb-thrower out of my country.

Jesuits need to be excommunicated from the Catholic church.

58 bouzouki  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:04:12am

Articles like this make me afraid that the anti-Jewish madness we see in the rest of the world may be on it's way here.

59 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:05:35am

#21 Axiom

Yeah, Ave Maria is a good school. I'd like for my kids to go there. Founded in part by Tom Monaghan, Domino's Pizza founder.

60 tom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:06:11am

bouzouki. it is. the arab/muslim world tries it on the jews first and if it works, tries it on us next.

61 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:06:31am

Do they give me a visa for Saudi Arabia or any other muslim country and a teaching position (I could get enough credentials to this end) to teach

Pagan philosophy and ethics ?

The class about ethic could be pretty interesting and I am sure would call for the full attention of all the students...

Maybe there is a Jew conspiracy to stop me from going to a muslim country...

(Repeat for Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Afro-American, African Animistic, Siberian Shamanistic, Shinto, Native Australian, Gnostic religions).

They want to talk here ? We want to talk everywhere !!!

62 selpaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:07:19am

More from our enemies close friends in the war on islamicfascism, fanaticism terror :

Egyptian newspaper calls on Arab countries to boycott Israel

63 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:07:55am

#54 Luigi

That fatbody's still breathing? {sigh} Fine, let's negotiate with him some more ...

#56 Axiom

I don't recall that those groups were specifically mentioned. The interviewer tried - he really, really tried to get Ramadan to condemn terrorism unequivocally, but he wouldn't do it. The interviewer was clearly aghast and concluded that part of the interview by summing up Ramadan's position on terrorism: He doesn't like it, but it's justifiable. Of course, Ramadan denied that and went on to justify terrorism... Sheesh. He's a lying scumbag and Notre Dame should be deeply ashamed for trying to hire this terrorist front guy.

64 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:09:05am

Let me address this turn of events by issueing a hearthy thanks to these Jewish groups!

#62 selpaw

Is this new? Haven't the Arabs been boycotting Israel for years (to no discernible effect)?

65 leo (dissident view from Berlin)  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:10:13am

The US DOH decision has placed Tariq Ramadan on the right side of the line, but how is this line drawn? The description as a "rising star" is correct insofar that he is one oft the Islamists most capable of selling theocracy to the left and indeed standing in the middle rather than on a fringe. His presentation of Islam wrapped into an eclectic remix of European culture (which actually is not just a presentation but a draft for a possible Euroislam) undermines the concept of moderate vs. extremist. A moderate would not propagate an all-encompassing totality and an extremist would use more confrontative rhetorics. This man has often been described as "two-faced" - theocracy meets postmodernism. Think Bill Clinton channeling Sheikh Abu Hamza. Tariq Ramadan is one of the major testcases for the thesis that the current problems of Islam could not be solved by Islamic mass movements because any such mass movement would inevitably develop into totalitarianism regardless of other declared intentions.

66 selpaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:14:05am

64 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Of course they have but they would like the West to believe otherwise. And of course they are correct banking on the complete ignorance and blindness of the west toward the islamic view of Israel.

Look how Egypt has fooled the world to think they are on the side of the good guys, that they are such a help to the United States. {spit!}

It is all an illusion which has worked quite well.

67 Mike7411  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:15:06am

OT... Today is the arafishes birthday, he's 75.
But no cake and ice cream for the fish.

[Link: news.scotsman.com...]

Can somebody tell me why he's still allowed to waste space?

Mike7411

68 zulubaby  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:17:25am

amir (#55)

Google taqiyah and read a few of the links.

Islamic concept of Al-Taqiyah to infiltrate and destroy kafir countries

According to Al-Taqiyah, Muslims were granted the Shar'iyee right (legitimacy) to infiltrate the Dar el-Harb (war zone), infiltrate the enemy's cities and forums and plant the seeds of discord and sedition. These agents were acting on behalf of the Muslim authority at war, and therefore were not considered as lying against or denouncing the tenants of Islam.
69 Pitiricus  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:17:52am

#55 Amir:

well as has been said, the borders of Islam are bloody... So are its entrails...

A cult of death whgich should be eradicated!

70 zulubaby  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:19:32am

Mike7411, the date on that article is August 4th. It's not his birthday today.

71 Craig Abu Al-Boo-Boo  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:19:59am

"The Dhimmi Tribune" continues to print anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic diatribes?

Well, color me shocked!

73 amir  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:29:36am

zulubaby

The fact that this concept of Al-Taqiyah exists, does it mean that every muslim is utilizing it if he espouses moderate views?

74 Axiom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:32:03am

#72 Norwegian kafir

Do you know how Taqiyyah works for Muslim to Muslim?

Beagle linked to an article from the Baha'i library that suggests Muslim sects have used taqiyyah for ages to lie to eachother in order to become the dominant sect. It mentions that the Babis also used taqiyyah to conceal their Baha'i faith, but for many they had to lie so often that they eventually grew disgruntled with the faith and disconnected from it.

75 MJ  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:34:22am

OT:

DATE: August 2004
TYPE: Action Item
SCOPE: Global

SUBJ: The Presbyterian Church must hold a Special Assembly to Rescind

the Resolution to divest from Israel passed by the General Assembly.

We call on JAT members to support the politically responsible Presbyterians who are now working to convene a Special Assembly to rescind the divestment.


ACTIONS
---

1. Ask Presbyterians to sign the petition to call a special assembly:

[Link: www.petitiononline.com...]

This is a petition written by Presbyterians calling upon the General Assembly Commissioners to convene a Special Session of the General Assembly to rescind the divestment resolution.

2. Write to Presbyterian leaders demanding that they call a Special Session of the General Assembly to rescind the divestment resolution.

Rev. Victor Makari, Coordinator for the Middle East

VictorM@ctr.pcusa.org

Jay Rock, Coordinator for Interfaith Relations

jrock@ctr.pcusa.org

Rev. Clifton Kirkpatrick, Stated Clerk of the Presbyterian Church, USA

ckirkpat@ctr.pcusa.org

3. Presbyterians and non-Presbyterians should sign and circulate the petition calling on teh Presbyterian church to reverse its resolution to divest form Israel:

[Link: www.petitiononline.com...]

Rev. Victor Makari, Coordinator for the Middle East,

Jay Rock, Coordinator for Interfaith Relations, and
Reverend Clifton Kirkpatrick
Office of the General Assembly

Can all be reached at:


Presbyterian Church (USA)
100 Witherspoon Street
Louisville, Kentucky 40202

SAMPLE LETTER
---

Dear Rev. Kirkpatrick,

I am writing to ask that you call a Special Assembly to reverse the recent decision to divest from Israel.

Calling for divestment from Israel while simultaneously voting to ensure that “resources and economic aid are made available to the Palestinian people,” is morally wrong.

As peace activist and Princeton Professor of Philosophy Michael Walzer has said "The current boycott campaign against Israel, modeled on the 1980s campaign against South Africa, aims at a very one-sided delegitimation. And because the other side isn’t led by an organization remotely like the African National Congress, or by a man remotely like Nelson Mandela, the success of this campaign would be disastrous. It would strengthen the forces fighting the... Palestinian war to destroy the state of Israel.”

I trust that you will prayerfully contemplate the motivation behind the General Assembly’s decision to divest from Israel, a democracy that is the only Jewish nation state, while, in the same resolution, urging that increased “resources and economic aid are made available to the Palestinian” people, even though the Palestinian Authority actually operates a government department in charge of launching suicide bombers to attack Israeli civilians – the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

I urge you to call immediately for a Special Assembly to rescind the divestment resolution.

Sincerely yours,


BACKGROUND
---

At the July General Assembly, the Presbyterian Church USA
voted to demand the "right of return" of “Palestinian refugees” to their “homeland,” to condemn construction of the security fence,
and to initiate a policy of divestment form Israel.

Although this church has divested from specific corporations, it has not divested from any nations except Israel and South Africa. Church leaders, to their disgrace, have frequently accused Israel of “apartheid.”

The Presbyterian leadership at the national level has long been
aggressively anti-Israel. The church leaders do issue pro-
forma statements about Israel's right to exist in secure
borders. However, in the context of the flood of anti-Israel
actions taken by these leaders Church, these statements mean little.

76 kelly  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:35:57am

Got to love the French:


Hospital no haven for terrorists

Israeli forces captured two Palestinian terrorists in a French-run West Bank hospital.

The two Al-Aksa Brigade members were found hiding in the administrative section of Holy Family Hospital in Bethlehem, along with an arms cache. In Nablus, the army rounded up 300 Palestinian men in a search for local terrorists.

At least one of the detainees was found to be on Israel’s wanted list and was taken into custody. /blockquote>

Global Jewish News

77 Mike7411  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:36:36am

70 zulubaby

Could have sworn I saw on the news this morning that it was his birthday, the were doing the celeb b-day thing.

Like he's a celeb.

Maybe it is the 4th for me, living in a slow time zone.

Mike7411

78 Mike7411  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:38:01am

PS: But the, why is he still allowed to waste space question still applies.

Mike7411

79 selpaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:39:21am

#75 MJ

From the Jewish Action Taskforce:
Demand That Presbyterians Call Special Assembly


Check out the entire website. Well worth the time.

80 zulubaby  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:42:06am

Axiom (#74)

Do you know how Taqiyyah works for Muslim to Muslim?

I was wondering about that too. What about Muslims using taqiyyah to draw converts in, basically seducing them until they're well and truly brainwashed?

81 applesweet  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:45:26am

A little OT

Over at Instapundit, I found this tidbit.

UPDATE: ANOTHER BACK-PEDAL? "Kerry's campaign has said it is possible his first Purple Heart was awarded for an unintentionally self-inflicted wound." It's that dang Internet striking again!

From [Link: www.captainsquartersblog.com...]

This guy must go around 24/7 shooting himself in the foot.

82 Talking Stick  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:47:16am

"It appears that all Muslims are by definition extremist. If they speak moderately, than that's taqqiyah.

It seems that they can't win. " #58


---Amir, the code of the Muslim apologists becomes easier to discern with repeated exposure to their pattern of logic

83 Beagle  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:47:39am

#55 amir

When someone addresses taqiyyah and the Koran, without pretending I'm an idiot, I'm willing to listen. But Muslims who pretend to, or actually do know, less about their faith than I do are always suspect, yes.

84 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:48:51am

Ah ha! I found the Tariq Ramadan interview. It was on Hardtalk with Tim Sebastian.

See the taqqiyah master in action!

Well worth the 24 minutes ...

85 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:50:27am

That last link was directly to the .ram file. The page on the show is here.

86 Norwegian kafir  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:51:04am

Axiom: The concept of taqiyya has been most developed by Shia Muslims. I suspect this is because they are usually a minority among Muslims, and frequently have been persecuted by majority Sunnis, as they are today in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc. Some commentators seem to think that the concept of taqiyya is a Shia concept only. This is not true. Sunnis use it as well, but they are more used to being in the "stronger" position where they force their views through, and don't have to hide them.

87 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:54:06am

In an OT border control development: Japan is deporting Bobby Fischer who is wanted in the US for violating sanctions against Yugoslavia. Fischer had tried to claim Japanese citizenship but Japan wanted none of that.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

88 applesweet  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:57:26am

If the person you're talking to says they are moslem, and they are a 'true believer'. and their lips are moving then believe you're witnessing taqqiyah in action.
Moslem + taqqiyal = kitman

ALL OF THEM

89 Beagle  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:58:26am

#74 Axiom

It also lists the great scholars of lies. That's Muslim science for you, perfecting the art of lying. I've said this before, but it's worth repeating, if "all war is deception" (Sun Tzu), Islamists cannot be defeated by our culture without a massive infusion of common sense.

I think I have gained some insight into the persecution of the Knights Templar, many of whom were condemned for "practicing Islam." You cannot fight against jihad (a violent primary duty of all Muslims according to most Islamic "scholars") without knowing a great deal about Islam, including but not limited to: hudna, taqiyya, jizya, dhimmitude, and sharia.

90 Norwegian kafir  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:58:38am

Hillary Clinton falls in love with Norwegian Arctic region

Perhaps she will stay around long enough to be eaten by a polar bear? They are hungry this time of year...

91 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:59:36am

At about 12 minutes in, he's defending stonings... yeah, get this guy a job at Notre Dame ASAP!!!

92 selpaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:00:04am

#84 Thom
What a coincidence. A friend sent the Hardtalk link the other day which I have yet to take the time to listen. Now, I most surely will. Thanks. The guy is a real slick bastard as is anyone with that surname.

93 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:02:43am

#92 selpaw

LOL. At least his 1st name isn't Jihad ...

Hi, my name is Jihad Ramadan, can we be friends?

94 applesweet  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:03:24am

The 'good ship' Kerry is sinking fast.

UPDATE: Matt Drudge reports that Kerry has tried reaching out to the Swiftboat vets, although not John O'Neill, and according to the former commander he called, he sounded pretty pathetic about it:

The call lasted 10 minutes, sources tell DRUDGE.

KERRY: "Why are all these swift boat guys opposed to me?"

BRANT: "You should know what you said when you came back, the impact it had on the young sailors and how it was disrespectful of our guys that were killed over there."

[Brant had two men killed in battle.]

KERRY: "When we dedicated swift boat one in '92, I said to all the swift guys that I wasn't talking about the swifties, I was talking about all the rest of the veterans."

Kerry then asked if he could meet Brant ["You were one of the best"] -- man to man -- face to face.

Brant declined the invite, explaining that Kerry was obviously not prepared to correct the record on exactly what happened during Vietnam and what happened when Kerry came back.

What kind of defense is that -- "When I called American servicemen murderers, rapists, and war criminals, I didn't mean you guys"?? If Kerry truly thought that half-assed explanation (not even an apology) would fly after all these years, then his diplomatic talents have been blown far out of proportion. The obvious cluelessness of John Kerry may even outweigh his serial prevarications as the most vital impediment to his candidacy. (via Power Line)
Posted by Captain Ed at August 24, 2004 06:04 AM

[Link: www.captainsquartersblog.com...]

95 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:05:46am

Terrorism is "contextually explainable" according to Ramadan ...

But "contextually explainable" does not mean "understandable" or "justifiable". Sebastian really hounded him on this point.

96 selpaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:11:25am

93 Thom

Hi, my name is Jihad Ramadan, can we be friends?

; -)) Sure!

BTW: As you know there are many arabs with the first name of Jihad. I ran across one in a medical practice. This is one guy I would not let check me if I lay dying.


LOL!! Doubt if he would touch a Jew she bitch anyway. (except to kill me)

97 applesweet  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:15:40am

Ramadan is not but a terrorist in silk clothing.

By analyzing his use of semantics, rythmn of word usage, and inflexion you can catch him in his lies. It just takes a bit of common sense, patience and observance.

98 halldor  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:15:43am

#44 Teacake

All this knee-jerk, islamic ass-kissing seems to me like transference/projection of the white guilt syndrom that people like Jesse Jackson hypnotized America into. The person of color is off the hook for anything and everything because the evil European has oppressed the entire world for so long.

I think it's more like the ass-kissing that characterized much of Western policy during the Cold War - as when George Bush Senior refused to receive Andrei Sakharov's widow Elena Bonner (unlike Mrs Thatcher or M. Mitterand), or President Ford's refusal to receive Alexander Solzhenitsyn - i.e. Western and US leaders were desperate not to do anything that might offend Moscow. Moscow didn't reciprocate, of course. Georges Marchais, the head of the French Communist Party, could visit the Kremlin, yet at the very same time he was doing so, we in the West could not receive the widow of a man who had been persecuted merely for expressing his opinions.

Now Islamists are welcome in the West, while citizens of Western countries are tortured and beheaded in the Islamic world.

Plus ca change.

99 noshariaincanada  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:19:58am

OT

One of the masterminds of the Bali bombing has escaped punishment for the crime.

[Link: www.abc.net.au...]

100 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:20:24am

OT - This is a very bad trend

Gentler Hitler takes German stage

A decades-long taboo has been broken in Germany by a film in which Adolf Hitler appears for the first time in a central role, not as a ranting demagogue but as a soft-spoken dreamer.

The Downfall is a huge shift from the previous tendency in German cinema to show Hitler only as a background figure or a character who does not appear on camera at all.

It tells the story of the last 12 days of Hitler's life in his 7.5-metre-deep bunker in Berlin - including his suicide with his new wife Eva Braun on April 30, 1945 - while liberating Soviet troops pulverise the city with shellfire.

The production by Bernd Eichinger, a respected director, is likely to cause controversy when it opens in German cinemas next month. It depicts the Fuehrer as an avuncular character with a penchant for chocolate cake, who slides into madness when his lifelong dream of a 1000-year Reich slips from his grasp.

Hitler is convincingly played by the star German actor Bruno Ganz.

In one scene Ganz depicts him with his hair in his eyes, tears streaming down his cheeks, as he declares: "The war is over."

Hitler is shown stroking his alsatian Blondie and treating his secretary with tenderness and patience. Until he starts having hysterical fits, Ganz's Hitler talks in a soft, melodic Austrian accent, far different from the barking tone he adopted for his mass rallies. The director said the voice was copied from the single surviving recording of Hitler talking in normal tones.

Eichinger, who also wrote the screenplay, reconstructs the last days of the Third Reich as seen from the dim, claustrophobic bunker with the help of diary extracts and witness accounts.

The Downfall has been welcomed by critics for demythologising Hitler - even before they have had the chance to see it. Others say the debate is in danger of playing into the hands of those who play down the crimes of the Holocaust.

Ugh.

101 Jakester  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:27:40am

Ahh, too bad, I was looking for a chance to meet this Tariq Ramadan! I'm sure we could iron things out in a reasonable way!

102 Norwegian kafir  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:29:26am

Charles, can you make a separate thread with this? It's important to get ALL LGF-members to sign this petition:

Online petition: Join the International Campaign against setting up Shari'a court in Canada

103 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:34:51am

#45 amir, interesting interview. Doesn't strike me as taqiyyah, at least not entirely. Sounds to me like he's trying, without getting himself off'ed, of course. There's no need to claim Israel has always acted with perfect decency, and one has to consider the viscious, filthy behavior of the proto-Palestinians then and now - sounds to me like this is where Ramadingdong may fall short. I'd give his book a read. It might just be that pulling his visa is not appropriate, though I'm hard-pressed to shed a tear about it. Dang but it's hard to balance freedom of speech against such enemies.

104 Melissa  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:39:05am

Here's another exceedingly strange story that the Joint Terrorism Task Force is looking into that took place yesterday in Omaha:

Crash Victim Tells of Chemical Ordeal


Following the collision between two cars at 40th and Leavenworth, police said one driver, Sivaprakash Natarajan of Manhattan, Kansas, offered the other driver money to let the matter drop. When that driver called police, Natarajan began eating a white, powdery substance that was in his car and became violently ill.

Last graf says eyewitness claims man was of Middle Eastern or Indian descent and couldn't speak English very well. No kidding? Really? Jihadists in America? Who knew.

105 thinkingmom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:48:40am

Posted this on the wrong thread below:

I'd put the onus on any muslim who wanted a visa for any reason to prove they had no connection whatsoever to any terrorist supporter..
..of course that's almost impossible to do...

106 Globular Cluster  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:49:59am

I telephoned the immigration department specifically to have Tariq's visa revoked. I was instructed to by the Eldars of Zion.

107 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:50:34am

#105 thinkingmom

It is impossible to do ... which makes it a terrific idea!

108 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:51:48am

#90

What self-respecting polar bear would eat Hillary Clinton?

109 halldor  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:52:43am

In post #98, "widow" should of course read "wife".

110 Victory Now Please  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:52:58am

OFF TOPIC:

HBO FILMS PRESENTS DEATH IN GAZA

I caught a chunk of this on HBO Latino. I don't speak much Spanish, however from what I could make out it seemed pretty sympathetic to the pali cause, although the description from the link above reads differently:

In the spring of 2003, Emmy(R)-winning filmmaker James Miller and his colleague Saira Shah set out to document the lives of three Palestinian children growing up in the bullet-riddled streets of Gaza. The film ends on a day like many other days in the town of Rafah--with death--except that on this day, the fallen victim is Miller himself. This poignant and powerful film is Miller's shocking first-hand look at the culture of hate that permeates the West Bank and Gaza through the perspective of three Palestinian children who have grown up surrounded by messages of hate against Israel--and who have been taught that the greatest glory is to die a martyr.

Any one else know anything about this film? I have to see it in English.

111 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:58:14am

#110 Victory Now Please

It's a definite must-see. The film-makers are pro-paleo, but they let a lot of truth slip into their movie.

112 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:00:14am

Waaayyy OT - WSJ/OJ - Venezuela's Voters Have Spoken - by Jimmuh Carter

According to Jimmuh, Hugo Chavez "won fair and square".

And the tooth fairy really exists.

And Christopher Columbus had an Arab navigator.

Uh-huh.

113 Killraven  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:02:11am

OT: CNN assholes:

The front page now sports a picture of some soldiers in action. The caption reads "A U.S. soldier runs for cover in Najaf today."

[Link: i.cnn.net...]

The soldier is clearly running forward with weapon at the ready, not away from anything, or behind anything.

114 Colt  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:02:47am

#110 Victory Now Please

I saw it, and wrote about it here.

115 zulubaby  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:05:11am

Thom, have you seen it?

116 Shaka Ndaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:05:12am

1. #97 Applesweet

"Ramadan is [naught] but a terrorist in silk clothing."

If he is, he would have some pretty smart people to watch over him at Notre Dame, see:

[Link: www.nd.edu...]

I studied International Relations w/Professor Dowty in 1978 (required NROTC course). He was tough, supportive of the military, and seemed to me conservative. Rumor had it he was also an active reservist in the IDF and would leave campus in case of any Israeli military need at the drop of a hat. This does not appear on his CV.

2. While I'm not going to respond to the antireligious arguments ("apostate") leveled against the place, I will state that ND is a conservative school (and more conservative than many other Catholic schools). When I attended there (in the long hair 70's), I believe it turned out more Air Force and Army cadets and Navy midshipmen than any location apart from the service academies. I don't know whether that's still the case, but I do know that Ted Hesburgh refused to boot ROTC off the campus when there was a brief but voluble cry to demilitarize the campus during my matriculation. Also, when Ronald Reagan was given an honorary degree at the school, the meager protest against it was more than drowned out by speakers in students' windows blaring the Star Spangled Banner.

As far as I know, its campus is still dry to undergraduate students and there are strict parietal visiting hours enforced on-campus. This is very difficult to maintain at a school once reputed to be a "party school."

It's also one of the few campuses that regularly employs some of the military officers posted to its ROTC/NROTC facilities after their retirement as faculty.

I believe the Philosophy Department is still run by Calvinists (that was starting as I left), and no one's accused that denomination of liberalism, overt or covert.

So, to accuse ND of liberalism because it attempted to hire a dissident view as a guest lecturer seems unfair. There are different political and color schemes (from red to pink to red white and blue) in all its departments, and there is a certain latitude granted to the independent academic departments in this regard.

117 DRL16  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:07:12am

IPE 101: Islamic philosophy and ethics:
MTWTh: 1pm-6pm
F: lab: 8am-6pm
(male only class)

Chapter 1
How to build a clock that isn't a bomb.
Chapter 2
How to respect women as long a they are obedient
Chapter 3
We don't hate Jews, but here's why others do.
Chapter 4
Terrorism is wrong when you admit to it.
Chapter 5
France, the land of opportunity.
Chapter 6
Love thy neighbor, convert they neighbor, kill thy neighbor

drl

118 zulubaby  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:07:14am

The BBC is drooling over it. Not a good sign.

119 Shaka Ndaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:07:47am

#113 Killraven

As some of the vets here will tell you, even running forward, a good soldier (or Marine) is probably also running for cover. It's just a good idea tactically.

120 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:09:51am

#115 zulubaby

Yes, and Colt did a good write-up on it.

He also noticed that the translators usually translated "Yahood" as "Israeli" which pissed me off as well.

121 Beagle  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:10:40am

#103 itellu3times

#45 amir, interesting interview. Doesn't strike me as taqiyyah

It would help if you read my post at #52, and the bottom of post #72. Now I'll tell you a third time, you can tell if it's taqiyyah when the Muslim "scholar" knows nothing about the Koran or hadiths which are virulently anti-Semitic, to use just one example. Now look at the article amir posted:

Anti-Semitism has no justification in Islam,

No justification? That's absurd.

Maybe he's trying to walk a fine line beteen reality and fantasy. But I'd feel much better if he actually addressed the Koranic verses and rejected them. Pretending like they don't exist is convenient in the short term. Once Muslims have a substantial minority population in the host nation the verses will still be in the Koran.

If it takes courage to criticize Islam directly, why is that? Apostates are killed. It's either takiyyah, justifiable cowardice, or delusional thinking.

122 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:14:03am

#118 zulubaby

Well, they would since they just take everything at face value. Anyone with a moral compass would watch that movie and be appalled at the depravity of paleo "society".

E.g., at one point in the movie, some masked terrorists are skulking around Rafah at night, using little Ahmed to scout ahead for them. One of the terrorists says (paraphrase, but extremely close): This is the perfect job for a little boy because nobody suspects him.

123 Victory Now Please  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:21:22am

Thank you Thom and Colt. Very interesting stuff. As far as I am concerned, any film crew/reporter that hangs with terrorists is subject to the same fate as the company they keep.

Also Colt, you wrote:

From the looks of things, the IDF broke R.O.E., perhaps knowingly.

I'm pretty sure that using children to throw stones and offer cover for masked muslim murderers violates some of those R.O.E.'s too. Same goes for blowing up busses and cafes. My point being that the ROE's are pretty much out the window when dealing with these Muslim Murderbots™. They play by no rules, and are therefore not at all entitled to the benefit of those rules. Just my .02

124 Jim in Virginia  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:24:27am

94 Applesweet- Drudge also reports that the Kerry campaign admitted one of his purple hearts was possibly from an accidental self inflicted wound. No link to it on Drudge. (Eat that, Chris Matthews.)
116 Shaka Ndaw- Calvinists at ND? Are there really Catholic Calvinists? (Presbyterian here.)
But your basic point on ND is right.

125 Athos  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:24:40am

Colt - That was a very interesting analysis / review of the film.

Back on topic, though - I'm just stunned by the number of people who just cannot grasp a simple fact - a visa is a priviledge - not a right.

How difficult is that concept?

127 Andrew B.  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:28:07am
128 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:31:36am

Hey Colt -

About that night time shooting of the asshat:

I didn't see any flashes coming from the direction of the Israelis to indicate the shots came from that direction. Do they make flashless weapons? My first thought was that he was whacked by one of the paleos.

</trying again on the right thread...>

129 selpaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:33:19am

#110 Victory Now Please

You must read The Race Against Lies

130 applesweet  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:35:27am

Shaka Ndaw

I must re-read my posts, as I don't recollect posting anything credible, dishonest or otherwise about your school.
My post was about the individual Ramadan.
But thank you for sharing your alumini at the school.

131 Colt  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:35:56am

#123 Victory Now Please

You're right, the current Israeli ROE are insane. My pet-hate is the one that prohibits soldiers in watch towers shooting at men using binoculars to check the place out.

Thom:

I didn't see any flashes coming from the direction of the Israelis to indicate the shots came from that direction. Do they make flashless weapons? My first thought was that he was whacked by one of the paleos.

It's been a while since I saw it. There were no tracers (as best I can remember), but that's not surprising - it was rifle fire. The area was dark - my first thought was the fire might have come from the balcony above, but that doesn't explain the shots that nearly killed the Pali cameraman.

Flash suppressors are available, but not standard issue.

132 applesweet  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:41:12am

JIm In Virginia

Read this:
Has Kerry Backed Off Of First Purple Heart Claim?

[Link: www.captainsquartersblog.com...]

133 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:41:48am

#131 Colt

It's on again tonight on HBO-L so I'll watch closely this time, and tape it. Something just didn't seem right about it.

134 Colt  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:45:24am

#133 Thom

Tell me what you see. The shooting was pretty accurate, especially considering how dark it was, IIRC. And remember we're talking about Arabs... The guy who shot Mohammed al-Dura missed before he hit him, and that was daylight across a street at a stationary target.

135 wilinsky  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:52:02am

#125 Athos

I second that. This issue has nothing to do with freedom of speech. No one is banning his books. But he is an enemy of the West in general and the US in particular, and is dangerous and slippery. Keeping him out seems like a no-brainer to me. What 'right' does he have to come over here and pursue his Islamist goals? I wouldn't want him here even if he was sincere in his anti anti-semitism line.This would be a different and harder problem if the guy was a US citizen. So far we have our hands full getting ahold of and deporting or jailing people with direct connections to terrorist organizations, so we haven't really dealt with any US equivalents of this guy as far as I know.

137 applesweet  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 9:57:53am

OT again

Breaking news over at Instapundit.

"PLAME UPDATE: Just got this press release from the folks at Time:

Contact: Diana Pearson, FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
Tues., Aug. 24, 2004


I. Lewis Libby Waives Confidentiality

TIME Reporter Gives Deposition to Special Counsel

New York -- TIME magazine announced today that its reporter, Matthew Cooper, has given a deposition to Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald in connection with the leak investigation involving Valerie Plame."

You can read this rest of this developing over at Instapundit.

138 Renna  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:02:51am

#122 Thom

This is the perfect job for a little boy because nobody suspects him.

To paraphrase some lgfer (sorry I forgot the credit)

How pathetic is it when your entire military stategy is that your enemy is more decent than you?

139 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:04:49am

#134 Colt

Tell me what you see.

Will do.

140 veebee  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:05:29am

Some quotes from Ramadan:

Ramadan notes how there are nonetheless many Muslims, especially intellectuals, who have succeeded in becoming part of the nucleus. He thus invites them to refashion it and, little by little, islamicize it: “References to Judaism and Christianity are being diluted, if not disappearing altogether” (“Les musulmans d’occident e l’avenir de l’islam,” Actes Sud-Sinbad, 2003). “Only Islam can achieve the synthesis between Christianity and humanism, and fill the spiritual void that afflicts the West” (“Islam, le face à face des civilisations,” Tawhid, 2001).
And again: “The Koran confirms, completes, and corrects the messages that preceded it” (“Les messages musulmans d’occident”). Some Christian personalities whose charitable works cannot be misconstrued – Mother Teresa, Sister Emanuelle, Abbé Pierre, Fr. Helder Camara – are exceptions who show only that all good people are implicitly Muslims, because true humanism is founded in Koranic revelation. Thus, both directly and through this humanism, the “Muslim City” can be founded upon the earth. “Today the Muslims who live in the West must unite themselves to the revolution of the antiestablishment groups from the moment when the neoliberal capitalist system becomes, for Islam, a theater of war […] The revelation of the Koran is explicit: whoever engages in speculation or cultivates financial interests eneters into war against the transcendent” (“Pouvoirs,” 2003, n. 164).

From Oliver Clement's "Be Careful of Ramadan's Model of Islam (scroll down).

141 dennisw-matamoros  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:07:00am

Here's a good one on Tariq Rama-lama-ding-dong. [Link: www.mpacuk.org...]

142 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:09:49am

#138 Renna

That about sums it up.

They're a bunch of freakin' cavemen ...

143 WriterMom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:12:58am
144 SoCalJustice  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:24:39am

CAIR pipes up:

CAIR Calls for Reversal of Prof's Visa Revocation

Group says DHS action sends wrong message to Islamic world

A prominent national Islamic civil rights and advocacy group today called on the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to reverse its decision to revoke the visa of an Islamic scholar who was due to begin teaching at the University of Notre Dame.

The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said the DHS decision to revoke a visa previously granted to Tariq Ramadan, a well-known Islamic scholar who is often described as a "moderate" and a "reformer," sends the wrong message to the Islamic world about America's willingness to listen to what Muslims have to say.

Ramadan, a citizen of Switzerland, was granted a visa in February following a lengthy security check. It was revoked July 28, after his family's belongings had already been sent to the United States. No reason was given for the revocation. A statement issued by Notre Dame said: "Professor Ramadan is a distinguished scholar and a voice for moderation in the Muslim world We know of no reason his entry should be prevented."

The Chicago Tribune reported today that the decision to revoke Ramadan's visa "could have been influenced by some Jewish groups that have waged a campaign against scholars and public intellectuals whose views on Islam and the Middle East conflict with their own."

SEE: "Muslim Scholar Has Visa Revoked"
[Link: www.chicagotribune.com...]

"The best way to improve deteriorating relations with
the Muslim world is by listening to mainstream Islamic
political and religious voices, not by censoring respected scholars whose views are apparently feared
by those who seek a monopoly on intellectual debate," said CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad.

Awad said the DHS decision runs counter to recent remarks by President Bush's national security advisor Condoleezza Rice who said just last week that America must expand "efforts to support and encourage the voices of moderation and tolerance and pluralism within the Muslim world."

CAIR, America's largest Islamic civil liberties group, has 28 regional offices and chapters nationwide and in Canada.

- END -

CONTACT: Ibrahim Hooper, 202-488-8787 or 202-744-7726, E-Mail: cair@cair-net.org;
Rabiah Ahmed, 202-488-8787 or 202-439-1441, E-Mail:
rahmed@cair-net.org


145 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:28:09am

Re CAIR - I really don't care what the moslem world has to say, and I hope relations detriorate as quickly as possible so we can get this war of civilizations over with as quickly as possible.

146 American Infidel[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:31:18am
147 ballantrae  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:31:48am
a renowned Islamic scholar who is accused by some Jewish groups of being a Muslim extremist, effectively barring him from a teaching post he was to begin this week at the University of Notre Dame.

MUHUHAHAHAAH - All your base are belong to us!

/International Zionist Conspirators to take over the World Via Control of Shaving Cream Factor

148 kstagger  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:32:15am

OT : Detrot Free Press article on the current situation for Sadr..

it's a sick piece of enemy propaganda

Freep Article

149 Palandine  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:33:21am

Last spring I was called by a student who was making calls on behalf of the Notre Dame Annual Fund. I told him I wouldn't be giving to my alma mater until they got rid of Tariq Ramadan. He said that was the first time he'd heard that reason.

For what it's worth...

150 Barking Pumpkin  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:33:27am

#110 Victory Now Please

Regarding "Death in Gaza"
It is, in fact, sympathetic to the Palis.
It is also translated dishonestly to make it appear balanced. In many scenes, when young Palis are talking about the Israelis, they will say "yahood" (Arabic for Jew) when referring to them and they do so in a derisive manner. However the onscreen translation for "yahood" is "Israeli". I can neither speak Arabic nor Hebrew well, yet I understand the difference between "Jew" and "Israeli" in either language.
Subtle, but dishonest.

151 Norwegian kafir  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:34:41am

In May, Islamists in MPACUK managed to stop a Channel 4 documentary about Muslim immigrants exploiting under-age white British girls:

UK's Channel 4 Pulls Child Sex Documentary on Racial Fears

Now, the documentary is scheduled to be shown, and the MPACUK are trying to stop it again:

MPACUK last week alerted you to Channel 4’s documentary ‘Edge of the City’ which links Asian Muslim men with paedophilia. Back in May we were at the forefront of a successful campaign that resulted in the documentary being dramatically pulled from the schedule as it became clear that the BNP’s exploitation of the programme risked sparking riots. Now we are asking YOU to write in to Channel 4 appealing for the documentary not to be broadcast on 26th August.

Channel 4 programme helps BNP

152 selpaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:38:48am

150 Barking Pumpkin
Indeed!

BTW: I posted The Race Against Lies earlier on this thread. You should read it, if you haven't already ; -)) It is terrrific and exactly what we are debating concerning the Gaza film from HBO.

153 Barking Pumpkin  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:39:57am

Colt

Just read your review of "Death in Gaza" and it was very accurate. Interesting that the same thing that rankled you about how C4 translated "yahood" struck me the same.

154 big L  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:41:50am

what inthe heck is this guy's real name? I don't think it is ramadan. Or his nom de guerre?

155 Barking Pumpkin  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:42:11am

#152 selpaw
Thanks for the link. I shall.

156 thinkingmom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:46:21am

#125 Athos,

I'm just stunned by the number of people who just cannot grasp a simple fact - a visa is a priviledge - not a right.

I'm afraid it's because too many people have abandoned rational thought in favor of some vague sense of "justice". I've found you've got to walk 'em through the steps, e.g.,

1)You would agree that countries do have a right to control who enters them?
2)You are aware that a foreigner has no legal right to enter this country without our permission?
3)You are aware that a segment of the muslim world has declared war on us and has slaughtered innocent civilians? That they are plotting against us now?
4)You are aware that they do not attack us as soldiers but use deception and disguise?
5)Are there any benefits to U.S. from allowing muslims visas that outweigh the likelihood of further terrorist attacks? Name them.

And so on.

157 andrew2  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:47:18am

For those intrested, visit this English language French website to find out the inside scoop of what the French are up to.

France's New Economic Partner - Renault

Notice the Renault Executive's Whoring to the Iranians. This is why anti-Semetism in France is a low priority despite all the rhetoric.

158 selpaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:50:36am

Colt...your essay is remarkable. A real keeper! You should be proud. Wish I could send you a BD cake to celebrate ; -))

159 Rayra[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:52:58am
160 Luigi  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:57:46am

OT -- CNN, Change The Record Already

All day long CNN has had this as their lead story:

Aide: Al-Sadr ready to negotiate in Najaf

I'm trying to find the words to describe the gullibility of anyone who would believe this, let alone report it on a news site. Then I remember what I really knew all along. They don't believe it, they're just willfully disseminating enemy propaganda.

161 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:58:28am

#159 Rayra

Oh well.

LOL.

162 selpaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:00:21am

#144 SoCalJustice

sends the wrong message to the Islamic world about America's willingness to listen to what Muslims have to say.

Once again and with the help of the Trib it is all the Jews fault. Sadly, what hurts to the core of me is to have friends who agree.

I think we should turn this into a drinking thread and make a toast to CAIR for their uncanny ability to whine and cry all the while fooling so many idiots people into believing they are the injured ones. And after we have all had a few drinks perhaps the pain of knowing how easy it is to slander Jews at every turn might feel somewhat dulled.

163 Mr Pol  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:03:21am

#45 amir

I once had a talk with a Muslim that was not taqqiyah. How do you know that? He acknowledged that the Qu'ran mainly propagated an ideology of hate. He wanted that taken out of Islam, though, which made him an apostate Muslim. He has since been killed as a 'collaborator'.

164 Spiritualized  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:06:52am

From the MPAC (Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK) site posted above:


What is the problem with Islamic banks? Is the worry that these are institutions that Zionists in the UK will be unable to control? Again the worry seems to be that these would become mainstream and if non-Muslims use them that diminishes Zionist control of the UK banking system.

And this is even better:


Muslims believe in diversity, there were more synagogues built in the times of the Khalifah than at any other time in history. Jews and Christians lived with the same rights in Muslim lands. Contrast this with the second class Arab citizens living in Israel.

They also organise boycotts outside Marks & Spencer dept store in London. i.e, the boycott of Jewish supplied goods pathetically disguised as simply an anti-Israel stance.

165 Mr Pol  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:08:23am

#164 Spiritualized

Actually, construction of synagogues and churches was forbidden under the Khalifah. Taqqiyah again...

166 Rayra[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:09:09am
167 Thom  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:12:58am

#164 Spiritualized

Jews and Christians lived with the same rights in Muslim lands.

Actually, that's true: they did have the same rights: as dhimmis.

But I think they meant to say "the same rights as moslems" which is, of course, a steaming pile of horse shit on a cold autumn morning ...

168 Mr Pol  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:13:13am

#166 Rayra

He's right, they can't win - the few honest and moderate ones are killed by the others.

169 selpaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:17:20am

#163 Mr Pol
Poor guy ; -((

Wonder how many collaborators are found out and how many go undetected?

170 C-Low  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:18:04am

If anyone questions exactly why Iran must be phase 3 in this war on terrorism read this article immediatly.

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

Very good read. Breaks the history down and really makes a strong case. I just hope to god that this time Bush doesnt f*ck up and let the media decide on the reason especially when they pick a reason that will have to have hard proof to justify like the Saddam had WMD crap. That was just one reason and Bush let the media spin it into the only reason. When the real threat was Saddam his abillity to go full WMD production as soon as sanctions were lifted the Sworn enemy status he had decided to go with the US and he was giving direct support to some terrorist and inderect support and assistace training shelter safe haven to others. Known agreesor with imperial dreams of conquest in a regioun were the majority of oil came from and war would have immediate impact on not just US but whole world economy. Not even to mention the huge military precense that was pissing off the muslims costing us billions and could very well go on for eternity with Saddam in power if during that time the UN and the US held the nerve during terrorist attack after attack to hold the "containment" (containment is a retarted idea only time you can play chicken with someone is when they actually are sane and fear death and dont expect heaven and 72virgins as long as they kill you too.). That was the reason for the war not he had WMD today it was what Bush said Due to 9-11 the way we looked at the whole world had to change no longer could Saddam be allowed to threaten the whole world. (the threat was not today but 5yrs from today when after sanctions were lifted saddam reconstituted his military then mass produced WMD then told the World again to stick it and any neighbors who colaberated with the enemy would lose their capitol. That was the threat us being forced to send hundreds of thousands of troops into a area were they definatley will be gassed possibly nuked we would have to kill thousands maybe millions of civilians and of course any ally we made the jump off from would suffer like.)

171 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:19:31am
172 Mr Pol  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:23:54am

#169 selpaw

He wasn't a collaborator at all. Just a honest person.

173 selpaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:27:44am

172 Mr Pol
Strange. You never did say he was a collaborator.

174 Mr Pol  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:32:45am

#173 selpaw

Did I misread your post? Accusing him of being a 'collaborator' was just an excuse for killing him.

BTW, very few 'collaborators' are arrested by the Balis. They just use the charge to get rid of trouble-makers, i.e. honest people, in their midst.
175 Mentat  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:37:29am

Read what Hugh Fitzgerald has to say about Tariq Ramadan on Dhimmiwatch:

[Link: www.jihadwatch.org...]

176 True German Ally  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:41:36am

#100 Titus

The film about Hitler you mentioned is certainly not a "very bad trend" as you noted.

The film will only start on Sept. 16th, but I have been able to see it already, along with other victims of the Nazi regime.

Bernd Eichinger (You remember "Das Boot"?) has done some excellent work here. Any "endearing" moments are brutally undercut by showing Hitler's true face, and it sometimes it sends shivers down your spine.

The actor Bruno Ganz is excellent and while some scenes might be debatable (as in every movie) there is nothing to be alarmed about, quite to the contrary.

Nobody will leave the cinema with a "better" view of Hitler, just with a more realistic one.

177 Pitiricus  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:42:21am

# 110:

I caught it and because of it revoked my contribution to PBS... And I have contributed for more than 20 years!

178 Mr Pol  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:42:53am

#175 Mentat

Commenting there is a pain in the arse. So I'll do it here. Robert Spencer says:

I don't refuse to distinguish moderate Muslims from extremists. I just don't want to accept any self-proclaimed moderate without making sure he is not an extremist practicing religious deception, or taqiyya. Apparently the jury is still out on Professor Ramadan.

No, the jury is not out. Tariq Ramadan is an extremist practicing taqqiyah, and it is very, very easy to tell. An honest moderate will acknowledge the calls to violence, murder, rape, slavery, holy war, sexism, racism and antisemitism in the Qu'ran (and eventually point out that back then, part of it was actually progressive). An extremist practicing taqqiyah will deny those parts. Tariq Ramadan denies everything.

179 Mentat  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:46:35am

CAIR's response to the visa revocation is a CAIR classic:

[Link: releases.usnewswire.com...]

180 Rayra[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:47:36am
181 Mentat  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:50:21am

#178 Mr. Pol

I didn't say read what Mr. Spencer had to say. I said, read what Mr. Hugh Fitzgerald had to say in the comments; he posts under the name, Hugh.

Mr. Spencer's comment is his usual attempt to show how objective and reasonable he is. I don't think for a moment that Mr. Spencer really gives Mr. Ramadan the benefit of the doubt on where his bias lies.

182 Mr Pol  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:52:42am

#181 Mentat

Huh... sorry. I misread your post.

183 Rayra[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:55:12am
184 selpaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:57:53am

174 Mr Pol
Something I was thinking of of drew me to put in the word collaborator even though I did not read it. When I reread your post I was shocked there was no such word. Hmm.

185 Mr Pol  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 11:59:31am

#184 selpaw

Oh, it's there. That was the excuse invoked to murder him.

186 Rayra[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 12:01:13pm
187 zulubaby  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 12:08:55pm

Douce France, by Hugh Fitzgerald

Brilliant guy. I thought he had his own blog though, or was I imagining that?

188 Colt  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 12:11:41pm

I think you're right, but can't remember an address. Or why I think he has one...

189 Rayra[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 12:14:25pm
190 zulubaby  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 12:18:57pm

Colt, I'm so sure he has a blog but I Googled and nothing is coming up.

191 Mentat  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 12:22:45pm

#190 Zulubaby

Mr. Spencer said the other day that a blog for Mr. Fitzgerald is in the works but not yet completed.

Mr. Fitzgerald's posts on Jihad and Dhimmiwatch have been collected at [Link: nojihad.com...]

192 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 12:24:14pm
193 locutus  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 12:24:48pm

I had a Visa revoked once, but only 'cause my payments were a little bit late

194 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 12:37:35pm
195 Promethea  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 12:39:06pm

#73 amir . . .

The fact that this concept of Al-Taqiyah exists, does it mean that every muslim is utilizing it if he espouses moderate views?

Excellent question!

That's the trouble with becoming known as a liar. When you tell the truth, no one believes you.

That's the moral of the story, The Little Boy Who Cried Wolf."

196 ploome hineni[deleted]  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 12:39:52pm
197 Promethea  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 12:56:21pm

#138 Renna . . .

How pathetic is it when your entire military stategy is that your enemy is more decent than you?

That just about sums up the entire Palestinian strategy. Is it possible that I once believed that Israelis and Palestinians could get along just like Hispanics and non-Hispanics do in Chicago?

Was I dumb, or what. :(

198 Cam  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 1:02:10pm

#197 Promethea:

Was I dumb, or what. :(

No, you were optimistic. No crime there.

199 Shaka Ndaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 1:04:56pm

1. Applesweet - note that you were only mentioned in part one of the post. No, you did not accuse ND of being an "apostate" institution, and I apologize if you thought I was attributing that to you.

2. 124 Jim - Yep. Hired a bunch of really smart folks from Calvin College in Grand Rapids. BUT, they're not Catholics themselves (they'd probably get angry if you suggested that, since I believe they think Catholics are automatically condemned to hell for their beliefs from the get-go). Notre Dame hires people of all backgrounds, so long as they're smart. Thus, you have Professor Dowty (Jew, I think) teaching Catholic (and non-Catholic, for that matter) students IR, and Black Muslims teaching sociology to a lot of white midwesterners who were pretty put off by the virulent rhetoric. But that's the marketplace of ideas.

3. Three things you will find out about a person's background in the first five minutes of your conversations with them:

Texan
Marine
Notre Dame

It's pretty much held true in my past 30 years of experience.

200 Cam  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 1:09:42pm

#199 Shaka Ndaw:

In classical Calvinism, the underlying theory is that God has decided each persons fate in advance of their being born. IIRC, this may also include Christians of other sects.

201 Shaka Ndaw  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 1:13:53pm

#200 Cam

I think you're right. At Calvin College, they have almost a loyalty pledge the faculty are required to sign stating that they agree with that view. Someone asked Al Plantinga (ND's then-incoming Philsophy Chairman) if he'd signed it. His response was something like "Of course. It's true."

202 Cam  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 1:20:22pm

#201 Shaka Ndaw:

I've always used that as an excuse to lead a wicked, sinful life. I mean, I figure if the decision's already been made upstairs, who am I to argue. Might as well enjoy the ride...

;-)

203 dennisw-matamoros  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 1:45:09pm

Mentat #175

Stellar from Hugh Fitzgerald. A great expose of Tarique Ramadan. Thanks for the link. [Link: www.jihadwatch.org...]

204 LC LaWedgie  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 2:06:33pm

Nothing new. Just another Jesuit slap in the face of the True G-d.

Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the nations [unbelievers]...

205 David All  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 2:09:30pm

MJ #75: Thank You, I have signed both petitions. If there is anything more I can do, please let me know.

206 Cam  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 2:11:39pm

#204 LC LaWedgie:

To what are you referring?

207 Mojo Jojo  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 2:43:27pm

The Tribune Company has a bigger problem than some Jewish groups. There baseball stadium has serious structual flaws.

208 LC LaWedgie  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 3:04:39pm

206 Cam -

Notre Dame Mission Statement Context:

This statement speaks of the University of Notre Dame as a place of teaching and research, of scholarship and publication, of service and community. These components flow from three characteristics of Roman Catholicism which image Jesus Christ, his Gospel and his Spirit. A sacramental vision encounters God in the whole of creation. In and through the visible world in which we live, we come to know and experience the invisible God. In mediation the Catholic vision perceives God not only present in but working through persons, events and material things. There is an intelligibility and a coherence to all reality, discoverable through spirit, mind and imagination. God's grace prompts human activity to assist the world in creating justice grounded in love. God's way to us comes as communion, through the communities in which men and women live. This community includes the many theological traditions, liturgies and spiritualities which fashion the life of the church. The emphasis on community in Catholicism explains why Notre Dame historically has fostered familial bonds in its institutional life.
A Catholic university draws its basic inspiration from Jesus Christ as the source of wisdom and from the conviction that in him all things can be brought to their completion. As a Catholic university, Notre Dame wishes to contribute to this educational mission.

So they teach Islam.

209 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 3:13:43pm

#121 beagle,

If it takes courage to criticize Islam directly, why is that? Apostates are killed. It's either takiyyah, justifiable cowardice, or delusional thinking.

Yeah. I see also #163, #195. Maybe he's just more "moderate" scum. I just keep hoping for better.

My instinct is to shoot them or let them talk, it's that middle ground that's difficult.

It's not quite that "apostates" are killed, but the most violent decide what is dogma, so anything resembling moderation or reason is denounced as heresy. This is Islam's cement overshoes, or perhaps its an Arabic trait and not really Islam proper, or ... oh, heck, shoot them all and let Allah sort it out, fine by me.

210 Cam  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 3:29:02pm

#208 LC LaWedgie:

Thanks. I wasn't sure if that was directed at ND or at a specific post.

211 SoCalJustice  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 7:17:59pm

AP interviews T. Ramadan:

U.S. Revokes Work Visa for Muslim Scholar

"This is unjustified," Ramadan said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press. He charged the revocation was "coming from political pressure."

[...]

"What I'm saying as a Muslim is that when I criticize a policy, for example the Saudi policy or the Egyptian policy, I am not Islamophobic," he said. "And when I am criticizing the policy of the state of Israel, of (Prime Minister Ariel) Sharon, I'm not an anti-Semite. It's just a political criticism."

Somehow, they managed to secure a quote from the ever-shy Ibrahim Hooper as well:

Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said the revocation indicates an unwillingness of Americans to listen to Muslims.

"It's really a slap in the face to Muslims who are trying to build bridges between the Muslim world and the West," Hooper said.

What a coup.

212 zulubaby  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 8:42:53pm

SoCalJustice (#211)

He charged the revocation was "coming from political pressure."

You know he was just dying to say that it was because of the Jews.

"It's really a slap in the face to Muslims who are trying to build bridges between the Muslim world and the West," Hooper said.

I hope so, I hope that more of your sly efforts are thwarted.

213 Lewis  Tue, Aug 24, 2004 10:02:45pm

#187 zulubaby

Douce France, by Hugh Fitzgerald

That was a great link. Thanks.

214 Shaka Ndaw  Wed, Aug 25, 2004 10:36:49am

#204 LaWedgie

Ever hear of "know thy enemy"?

And, since you've obviously identified ND as an enemy of yours, know this about your chosen enemy - it's not Jesuit, unless you're really using using "Jesuit" as a substitute for "papist," "Romish," or something else you really wanted to say.

When secular shcools were disowning the military and throwing it off campus, I was studying Philosophy and Naval Science at ND, with a firm conviction that, although the military was then out of fashion, it was welcomed at that religious institution because the university is a marketplace of all ideas, not a closed market.

I hope ND gets Ramadan back, so its students can look at the other side of things. They're smart enough not to need to be protected by paternalism's vetting of ideas.

215 EE  Wed, Aug 25, 2004 12:05:40pm

[Link: www.danielpipes.org...]

... Tariq Ramadan, hailed by some as a moderate -- a man who has stayed within the law but is believed by some to have Al-Qaeda connections

IMO it's not Tariq Ramadan's views that are the reason for revoking his visa. It's the evidence concerning his connections to Al-Qaeda.

Since 9/11, we are less likely to admit people for which there is evidence of a connection to Al-Qaeda. And that is good for the safety of all Americans.

If he's a spy, then let him spy somewhere else.

216 LC LaWedgie  Wed, Aug 25, 2004 12:32:32pm

#214 -

Well, I did a search of the Bible, both testaments, and didn't find "know thy enemy" anywhere. I did find this:

Psalm 61:3 For thou hast been a shelter for me, and a strong tower from the enemy.

I wasn't aware that service to G-d was a fashion statement, I guess, though, you have decided which is more fashionable for you. From your reply, you didn't go there for that anyway, so why be defensive?

As far as N.D. not being a Jesuit university, I understand that. However, their mission statement and that of the Jesuits, "What Makes a Jesuit High School Jesuit?," are seamless. I would not be surprised that a lot of "S.J."s teach at N.D.

But you shouldn't have to worry about whether I or an Islamic terrorist are your enemy. So, enjoy your Muslim pals.

217 Shaka Ndaw  Wed, Aug 25, 2004 12:53:40pm

#216 LaDouchebag

OK, gloves off time. I don't have any muslim pals that I know of. I don't think any SJs teach at ND. If you'd bothered to do your homework, you'd have learned that there's a lot of animosity between liberal SJs and conservative HCs (ND's breed of priest).

I truly rankle at your suggestion that, because I defend a school against your misinformed and dogmatic (meaning, coming from one point of view without regard to the facts) attacks on it, I'm a muslim sympathizer. Fuck you.

My little brother's getting shot at in FOB Speicher right now. What's your pitiful DNA group's contribution to the war on terror?

218 Shaka Ndaw  Wed, Aug 25, 2004 12:58:39pm

Corection to my last post. My USArmy little brother (CAPT last I looked) is on his way stateside from Tikrit for his halftime (tour of duty 1/2 over) R&R.

But still, take your version of the bible, reinterpreted several times from the original languages it was handed down in, and make that your daily guide to life without looking at facts.

I repeat, FUCK YOU.

219 piglet  Wed, Aug 25, 2004 2:01:15pm

Without starting a tautological debate, I think the following should clear up many of the ontological questions raised in this thread:

Many Christian Bibles have expanded versions of several of these books
(Esther, Ezra, Daniel, Jeremiah and Chronicles) including extra
material that is not accepted as canonical in Judaism. This extra
material was part of the ancient Greek translation of the Tanakh, but
was never a part of the official Hebrew Tanakh. Jews regard this extra
material as apocryphal. Among Christians, there is a difference of
opinion. Catholics regard this material as canonical, while many
Protestant sects regard this material as Apocrypha. What is and is not
regarded as Apocrypha varies among the many Christian sects. Some of
the most famous Apocryphal stories are closely associated with the
book of Daniel, and indeed are printed as part of that book in some
Christian Bibles. These stories include: Susan and the Elders, The
Song of the Three Children, and Bel and the Dragon.

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