Shocked./

Can we call them Islamic terrorists yet?

OT
Bill Clinton admitted to hospital for surgery.
Possible heart surgery.

Minutemen -- just being patriotic, right? Freedom fighters and all that.

yep, the slick-meister is going in for quadrupal bypass surgery.

I dont like the man, didnt like most of what he did as Prez, but Ill pray for him. Dont wish a defective ticker on anyone.

The Beeb sees no apparent contradiction in Chechen separatists who are Arabs? What were they trying to separate from? Oh yeah, Western civilization.

#3 FrankNH

Clinton had a heart? Who knew?

BBC world service (radio) is saying that 60 bodies have been found so far, but "there are much [sic] more.."

My deepest sympathies to the families of the dead.

I hope they were all gut-shot and died shrieking.

I'm shocked. This seems so out of character for Muslim Arabs.

#3; #5

All those years of donuts and Big Macs finally take their toll.

Propaganda !!! They were Buddist. They were there to
educate the young ones.

savages! ANY reaction by the Russian authorities is A-OK by me

It isn't over yet:

Three terrorists blockaded with child hostages in basement of Breslan school, North Osettia, seven hours after Russian soldiers stormed building. Fighting and explosions continue.

Debka.

To the murderous bastards who have done this thing:

(Part I)

You've blamed the United States, Israel and the West in general for the inability of Muslims to create a place for themselves in the modern world. The poverty from which the Muslim world suffers has nothing to do with the existence of the state of Israel, the presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia or the alleged Godlessness of the West, but has everything to do with the contempt you and those like you have for knowledge, ideas and the free expression of the human spirit.

Your people are poor not because of what the West has done to them, but because their leaders have squandered the opportunity to build just and vibrant countries afforded to them by the presence of oil in their region. Consequently, the Muslim communities that have the highest standard of living reside in that part of the world you most despise -- the West. Just as our wealth is the consequence of our values, the poverty of the Muslim world is the consequence of the fatalism that underpins your thinking.

You've mistaken our secular system of governance for Godlessness and to cure us of this, you would force us, through violence to embrace a system of belief contrary to our traditions, temperament and long-held beliefs. You will not succeed.

You traffic in lies, debunked myths and superstition to justify your actions. Whatever knowledge you and your adherents gain in the course of your Jihad is used to undermine civilization, not to build a better lives for the people of your world.

You and your followers have introduced new forms of barbarity into the world arena in the name of religion.

You and your fundamentalist co-religionists have tried, through violence, to force the rest of the world into sharing your hostility and fear of Jews, women, homosexuals and toward the human spirit in general. Your violence is motivated by a mistaken belief that you have the spiritual and intellectual answers for the questions we face in the West. You do not.

You mean moslems were involved??? Who knew?

I guess iRussia will have to consider a wall between Chechnya and the rest of Russia.

On a more serious note, another deathknell in the theory that there would be no terrorism if it were not for the Israelis/Jews

Murderous Bastards Part II

You've selectively read those portions of your holy writings to justify violence, ignoring those passages that would have you respect human life and refrain from killing innocent people. We have the same ambiguous messages in our religious traditions, but have typically chosen peace over war, except when attacked.

Just as your values have led to a narrowing of possibilities in your own life, the fundamentalist values of militant Islam have led to a narrowing of opportunities available to people in the Muslim world. It is this narrowing of possibilities that is the true source of rage amongst your followers.

Here is what we're going to do:

We will hold the enemies of civilization accountable, regardless of what ideology or creed they would impose on others. We make no distinction between secular and religious ideologies that encourage our destruction. If defending against destructive ideologies means wars like what we've seen in Afghanistan and Iraq, so be it. We are no strangers to war and we have faced down destructive ideologies before.

We will continue to support Israel and negotiate only with those leaders who acknowledge that country's right to exist. We will work for a two-state solution, but will work only with those who are ready, willing and able to abide by the rules of the nation state system. There will be no elimination of Israel (phased or otherwise) and we will not negotiate with leaders who say one thing in English at the negotiating table and something else in Arabic to their followers.

We will defend our way of life and maintain the separation between church and state. We will not allow Sharia to be imposed on our country either through violence or political subversion of our Constitution. We will respect and honor the rights of Muslim immigrants and converts to worship as they choose, but Islam will be given no special privileges or autonomy in our society. We will acknowledge that private faith informs our public discourse, but our government will remain secular. Depending on our private faiths for strength and confidence, we will defend our secular ways. We will reject the fatalism that you have embraced. We will lift up our eyes to the hills and to the stars above them.

We will continue to reduce the size of our nuclear arsenals and do what is necessary to prevent weapons of mass destruction from falling into the hands of madmen like you. We expect the rest of the world, friend or adversary, to do the same.

We will maintain a sizeable army equipped with the most powerful technology on the planet to protect ourselves and our allies. We will maintain an overwhelming advantage of conventional weapons to give us the strength we need to win without resorting to nuclear weapons, which we will hold as deterrence against the use of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons.

We will pay a fair price for oil, but will not tolerate the use of our money in the support of terrorism. We will reduce our demand for your oil and pursue the creation of new sources of energy in the hope that a decline in oil revenue will encourage leaders of OPEC nations to regard their people, not petroleum, as their countries’ most valuable assets.

We will lend support to Islamic leaders who see modernity as an opportunity for people to gain more control over their own lives. We fully understand that not all Muslims are our enemies, though your attack encouraged us to think so. We will support policies that increase the ability of people to control their own futures, because you have shown us the consequences of hopelessness. We will work and pray that leaders in the Muslim world emerge to lead their countries out of the dead end of Islamic fundamentalism.

bastards

brainstien... I assume you mean the Islamists, right?

Some dipshit on the bbc has just used my "red curtain of blood" phrase. Yes, that's right, the Chechen situation is a cycle of violence.

And here I thought you couldn't have a cycle of violence without a Jew or two...

Assholes!

Can't say I'm much surprised. Arab "fighters" are skilled at spreading the psychokiller version of Islam. Many are in Balkans and Chechnya.

Part III

Don't underestimate our capacity to do these things. These promises are merely an echo of what we have done in the past when faced with the onslaught of totalitarianism. We have faced down madmen like you before and we'll do it again. Your ability to deal out death and destruction frightens us, but the world you would build through killing offends us even more than your violence frightens us. Yes, we love life, but there is one thing we are willing to fight and die for – freedom. Try to take it from us at your own risk.

Bill Clinton's feeling Dick Cheney's pain.

Some Saudi fighters there in Southern Russia murdering children! Let's all band together folks and destroy this hydra. First... all this f^#$^% terror around the world is caused by Saudis (financially, fighters, logistics)... Admit it and do something about it. Nobody else is more involved than the Saudis. Destroy Saudi Arabia once and for all. Let them burn in hell NOW. The other vampires can follow suit (Syria, Iran, Egypt, Pakistan...) FIGHT TERROR! THE BLIGHT OF CIVILIZATION!

I guess iRussia will have to consider a wall between Chechnya and the rest of Russia.

Why bother. Drive the Muslim Chechnyans into Siberia same as Stalin did. Let them tussle with the immigration wave from the Chinese dragon.

brainstein, nevermind, of course you do...

Why are there so many damned fools among us unwilling or unable to recognize the global jihad that we face?

The Chechen dipshit -- Ozman Fazouli (sp?) -- on the BBC is now insisting that he and his fellow terrorists are freedom fighters.

Live in the UK? Looking for a good reason to refuse to pay your BBC tax? Here you go.

If we don't stop this now, these hostage takings will be commonplace in Europe, in America, and in Asia.

How long will Western civilization tolerate this assault on its very core? I say we initiate a full attack on the Islamic civilization on all fronts: the USA, the pussy EU, Russia, India, Israel, and anyone who is interested in killing Muslims is welcome. The objective is to kill 1.400.000 savages and make room for a planet Earth that will soon be overpopulated.

Practicants of the Islamic religion have forfeited their right to life. We must make sure we practice collective punishment. First stop, nuclear strike in Makka.

Why are there so many damned fools among us unwilling or unable to recognize the global jihad that we face?

War is wrong. Peace is good. We're the bad guys. They have legitimate grievances. We just need to be more sensitive to these fucks.

And Kerry wants to give the Iranians nuclear material.

Apparently one of the terrorists was black.

According to my LLL friends it can all be blamed on Bush and his war in Iraq creating new anger in the Arab world.

Those poor families. There really are no words for the horror and (misplaced)guilt they will carry for the rest of their lives.

Bill Clinton's feeling Dick Cheney's pain.

Newsflash is Bill traitor Clinton had a heart attack. Getting quadruple bypass? It seems.

Mr Pol,

How do you know one of terrorists is black? Are you listening to Russian radio or watching a live Russian tv channel?

If so, could you "hook me up" with a link or two??

Appreciate it...

(#34) Mr Pol

Apparently one of the terrorists was black.

Mahdi Bray?

Amiri Bakara?

Cynthia McKinney?

Yes, Im sure US foreign policy in the persian gulf and towards Israel is somehow the "root cause" of all this.

And the Bali bombings of young Austrailians. And the Casablanca bombings of mostly muslims. And the Istanbul bombings of mostly muslims. And the Spain train bombings.

And the Jakarta Marriot bombings. And the bombings of Shi'ite muslims in southern Iraq. And the bombings of Kurdish muslims in northern Iraq. And the muslim genocide of blacks in Sudan.

Chomsky? Chomsky?

Isn't it about time the mainstream media figured out that if Arabs are involved in the conflict--whether in their lands or foreign ones--mayhem inevitably results? Apparently, the media have learned nothing from the examples of Afghanistan, Israel, Iraq, Chechnya, Sudan...

Here's a serious question, how did the Russian authorities know they were Arabs? Was it because of an ethnic appearance, ID, or some combination thereof?

I've also been reading that the Russians think this is a joint AQ-Chechen operation, and that could explain the presence of a black terrorist (AQ did a lot of recruitment in Somolia and Sudan). If Mr. Pol's info checks out, the presence of the black guy could confirm this was a joint op. /speculating here.

The Clinton coronary story is on Drudge as we speak.

I do hope he pulls through.

BBC reports more explosions in Baslan and 100+ fatalities.

Let us hope Putin can use a map. These imported jihadniks pretty much have to be coming through Iran. Russia has a lot of nukes, no peaceful reputation to try to uphold, and no active fifth column.

The entire population of Chechnya should be gassed, and the Russian Armed Forces should be mobilized to destroy anything between the Caucasus and the Saudi wastelands.

Arabs in that school? I don't think so...

They were Israelis--Mossad spies...or Arabs who were drugged by the Israelis...or Arab robots made by the Israelis...

Arabs would NEVER do anything like that...

sarcasm off...

Hope Bill Clinton pulls through...

#45 Patrizio

Moby?

#21 Centaur

Check.

Colt:

I don't know what you are referring to, maybe the bald singer? :D

Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else.

I know this is wrong/cynical, but I hope Clinton doesn't die, because the big Bill Clinton funeral sympathy thing might swing a few thousand key undecided votes JFnK's way.

#45--

You are kidding I hope...gassing an entire population??? Children??? Chechen adults who are at the mercy of the terrorists??? I know that most of the people in Chechnya are not terrorists and what you are suggesting is GENOCIDE.

I don't have a solution, but gassing an entire population is pure evil!!! What you are advocating is along the ethical lines of Al Qaeda, the Nazis, and so on...

#49 Patrizio

We occasionally get bullshit artists here who post stupidly provactive things to show the rest of us up. Advocating genocide - particularly with gas - is a familiar tactic, especially if you registered just recently (#49 being your third post).

They must be getting revenge for the presence of Tel Aviv so close to Grozny.

WE can't use the word "terrorist" yet because according to AP/REUTERS wire reports we haven't given enough blood to the poor little Mohamadans. Until then its Militants with a capital M, and that stands for many more months of atrocities.

I pray this be the moment the Russian Troika jolts forward and drops a "bombshell" on Iran, loosens a few bolts and maybe cools its traditional support for Arab regimes... praying

The entire population of Chechnya should be gassed, and the Russian Armed Forces should be mobilized to destroy anything between the Caucasus and the Saudi wastelands.

That is a little extreme, isn't it?

Surprize... Surprize /Gomer

I worry that this little feature of the story will never make it past the PC police here in the American media.

This story makes my blood run cold. I can not imagine a 'softer' target than a school.

Of course in our education system the concern is that the students are the terrorists. All the ridiculous 'zero tolerence' crap in the world would never stop a case like this.

I would actually argue that armed tachers and parents would have helped to stop a situation like this one.

I wonder if Russia will be going to the U.N. for authorization of force? Agterall, that's what JOhn KERry would do. - G-d forbid if Kerry gets into office, these kinds of horrible terrorist events would be happening on our shores. This clown just doesn't get it.

In all the news reports I've heard on this atrocity, I have never heard the villains referred to as "moslem". Have any of you heard any MSM mention of the fact that this is yet another variation of the RoPMA' s missionary work?

When the day comes that the press begins to correctly identify the common denominator behind the vicious and cowardly attacks of these barbarians, we will have a chance of salvaging western civilization.

38 GNIDAthe#seCond
I think Mr. Pol is refreshing this site.
[Link: www.logicandsanity.com...]
Stan is monitoring a Russian site and translating it before posting on his.

Easy folks. 'Patrizio' just registered today. Sounds very much like another troll who registered today on this thread.

Getty Images has some amazing pictures up of the initial moments following the storming of the Russian School. They are so sad - these children, and the adults who were with them were allowed no food or water, nor to go to the bathroom, during the two+ days they were held hostage. These pictures portray an event almost Dante-esque in its' level of horror.

If you know anyone who says we're over-exaggerating when we call the perpetrators of this terrible event "terrorists", point them to this link. If it doesn't get them to shut up, nothing will.

Three of the terrorists, including their reputed leader, have been surrounded by Russian forces.
[Link: www.mosnews.com...]

#61--

I'm guessing it's part of a campaign to paint LGF as racist or whatever. Post a few inflammatory comments, then refer to them as "proof" that LGF is evil.

This AMAZING paragraph is in the BBC report on this atrocity right now...read it and weep:

Meanwhile, the US White House condemned the hostage-taking as "barbaric" and blamed the hostage-takers for the lives lost during the storming of the school.

59 thinkingmom

Over the past 5 or so hours, I have heard references made to the ROP on both CNN and BBC. Interestingly, the references were made by guests, and not by the network presenters.

Perhaps they are worried about upsetting their advertisers?

A friend of mine who I trust has passed along the following information:

Last report I have says its now 19 out of twenty dead. Three more are holed up in the building basement with some hostages, seven are in another building being pounded by tanks and the rest are fleeing through the countryside pursued by local citizens with deer rifles.

**EDIT** its now been reported that the ones who tried to flee across country (now numbered at 13) are holed up in a house, surrounded by local civilians who are shooting the place apart, brick by brick.

Confirmation awaited.

The best-selling deer rifle in Russia is the Tigr, a civilianized version of the Dragunov SVD. Its wickedly accurate.

#67

Privite citizens hunting down and killing the terrorists would be a positive development...

Okay, can someone cofirm what I"ve just heard about the familes of these savages getting rewards?

If that's the case Russia better make sure that those familes don't last for much longer!

OT:

Outer rainbands of Hurricane Frances, probably with some embedded tornadoes, approaching Gold Coast.

Aircraft recon suggests a strong Cat 2, but the NHC is calling it a Cat 3 still.

Moving very slowly, and divergence in path predictions, with newest AVN pointing to Jacksonville, newest ETA still near NHC forecast track. Lower winds, but slow movement means extended hurricane force winds near the coast where it hits, and the possibility of over half a meter of rain in a 36 hour period.

#66 midas mulligan

Perhaps they are worried about upsetting their advertisers?

Or afraid of "bad publicity" when CAIR or it's UK equivalent stages very public protests and calls for boycotts of the advertisers. Political correctness trumps the truth.

FSB Says Half of Killed Beslan Terrorists Were Arabs

Found this link from Logic & Sanity blog

God help those still held hostage.

:(

#66 Midas Mullligan,

Perhaps they are worried about upsetting their advertisers?

More likely they're worried about upsetting their own worldview...

Telling the truth about radical Islam would make those that fight against it (i.e., the U.S. and its allies) the "good guys", would make western civilization seem, well, more "civilized" in comparison, would show the emptiness of post-modernism, etc., etc.

The establishment (now the LLL elites) doesn't have the intellectual courage to re-examine its assumptions (unlike many of us).

This sets a great precedent for a similar situation in the US. We spent billions on beefing up airport security. It isn't too hard to walk into a school before classes begin.

How prepared are we for that?

I am not a fucking troll. I am an angry racist Westerner who is now more awake than ever. The Clash of Civilizations is real. It is us or them.

There are two ways in which this conflict can be solved.

The first one deals with the reform of Islamic society to its very core. There are two ways in which that can happen: either they reform themselves, or we reform them. The first one is obviously never going to happen, and the second one is the one I support in real political terms. It's what the Bush Administration is doing, the essence of what Krauthammer and Podhoretz have been writing about.

The second way in which we can solve this conflict is by completely eradicating them from this Earth. I think Muslims and their putrid culture have forfeited their right to life by providing a very ample base for this kind of thing to happen. We must kill them before they kill us.

#50 Ed Moran,

Oh, that is so wrong.

#42 lawhawk

Here's a serious question, how did the Russian authorities know they were Arabs? Was it because of an ethnic appearance, ID, or some combination thereof?

The half inch genitalia gave them away.

#12

You mean like Master Po and Master Kan?

Ah, grasshopper...

Yankee Zionist

Nice piece of clear thinking. Thank you. It sounds like you've already read this lengthy piece from Commentary magazine, but just in case you haven't:

World War IV: How It Started, What It Means, and Why We Have to Win

79 BIG

The half inch genitalia gave them away.

WOW!
That is so un-PC
LOL

72 SN /75 thinkingmom

The media is in conflict. On one hand they claim to be committed to the truth. On the other, to balance. Unfortunately, there is no way to reconcile the two, because sometimes the murderer is just a bad guy and the victim is an innocent child. And there is no balance.

I'm off to bed (It's 1AM here) but before I do I''ll take a minute to say a quiet prayer to algore for inventing the Internet.

What would we do without it? Good night all. Stay safe.

Thinkingmom, don't hold your breath.
BTW the MSM won't say "Moslem" anymore. Moslem connotes deception, lying, etc. The PC term is islamic or muslim.

This could happen in America too. It is a lot easier to hijack a school than an airplane...

#44 CCR:

You raise a fascinating question. During the Cold War, the US feared the USSR and its forces. The fighting ability of the Red Army was known from World War II. Now, what happens if the Russians are riled -- REALLY riled? Putin's a KGB guy, with no particular qualms about the thumbscrew techniques. There's no Kumbaya-singing flower-child lobby in Russia as far as I can tell. So: how far will he go to stop the terror.

Red Army Resurgent! Long live the spirit of Gen. Zhukhov.

And this shows once and for all: It ain't us Jews, folks.

MKSheppard

**EDIT** its now been reported that the ones who tried to flee across country (now numbered at 13) are holed up in a house, surrounded by local civilians who are shooting the place apart, brick by brick.

I can't blame these enraged, heart-broken people for taking justice into their own hands.

Get. them. ALL.

Cowardly islamonazis.

#6 scaramouche

The crazed jihadis who held those children hostage today wouldn't know what to do with a separate Chechen state even if they got it.

Well, I can't say that I'm unhappy that they finally got some shots.

I can't stop thinking about those kids...

#70 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C

Have you seen the lastest projection map Dave Barry has up?

86 p
watching the video feed on foxnews at 0530 this morning, i was struck by the discipline of what looked like a platoon-strength group of soldiers, running in single-file, spaced properly (someone taught them well)... these guys aren't slouches. they've still got a good army.

" are holed up in a house, surrounded by local civilians who are shooting the place apart, brick by brick."

Can't be... there must be some kind of gun control. You can't have just anyone hunting terrorists.

It is out of season and everything.

We can't go out and gas an entire civilization. I hate Islamic murderer pricks more than most people, but we can't kill off millions of people to get the aggressive ones out of the bunch.

Sleep agent perhaps, but not gassed to death. I saw what Hussein did to the Kurds, and of course saw the results of the rotten fuck Hitler and his mass murder.

Look, freedom and democracy is about to be crammed down the throat of the Middle East. Surely, I'd rather watch them choke on that instead of poison gas. We're about to punk out Muslim male racists around the world, and I can't wait. Sometimes humiliation is worse than death, especially to these assholes.

#19 YZ

STOP! I'm not buying:

"You've selectively read those portions of your holy writings to justify violence, ignoring those passages that would have you respect human life and refrain from killing innocent people"

What with the doctrine of abrogation, the "Verse of the Sword" (surah 9:5, the Qur'an's final word on jihad, along with countless other Qur'anic references) and the fact that the Umdat al-Salik (section o9.0 et seq.)contains one paragraph on jihad as spiritual struggle and seven pages of jihad as war against non-mulims, and the bloodthirsty ahadith, there is no need or possibility of selectively reading the muslim holy writings to justify violence.

The fact is, on the plain record, violence towards non-muslims is a central tenet of islam. There can be no varnishing of the truth.

Here

Beslan. There are Arabs and 1 Afro-American among the victims in Beslan in North Ossetia, said Head of Russian Federal Security Services Valeriy Andreev on Rossia TV.

In support of claims that terrorist act has been planned by international terrorists is the fact that among the killed 20 terrorists there were 10 Arabs and 1 Afro-American.

Is packing pistols in nursery diaper bags along with infant formula gonna make daycare safe?

If arming teachers & children is such a good idea, what if children are indoctrinated in jihadism at home, like those here in Ol' Virginny's Saudi Academies? Or those Palestinian children bribed into wearing suicide belts?

We have to think outside the envelope as Rummy says. They're grooming madrassah boys and jihadi girls faster'n we can stop them.

Guns don't kill terrorists fast enough, Total War on Islam makes more sense to me.

MKSheppard

What is the source??

God help me, I want those parents to finish those fuckers off.

The bitch that's the BBC correspondent on the scene in Beslan said at first that the fact that the first children who she saw had escaped had mostly leg wounds indicated that the "hostage-takers" (as they're called) had "some sort of conscience". She then elaborated on this rather shocking statement and suggested that the noble "hostage takers" had qualms about murdering children.

SHE SAID THAT!

And immediately afterwards I saw Russian TV footage of kids with horrible gunshot wounds, including a girl shot in the back.

WTF!? The BBC should be sued and that reporter fired.

Or sent to Riyadh, where they'd appreciate that sort of "balanced reporting".

Pissed me off so bad, I am watching only Sky News from now on.

*** the BBC. Really, *** 'em!

I hope there'll be more Frank Gardners, bastards!

front page / Hot spots and Incidents / Crimes / Terrorism

All US-bound planes from Russia are under suspicion

09/03/2004 12:03

authorities toughen security on US-bound passenger flightd from Russia

The US department of transportation issued a special set of instructions to enable a more thorough baggage and passenger screening upon their arrival to the United States.

Major emphases will be made on cynologists with specially trained dogs. Passenger flights of "Aeroflot" and "Delta" airlines will be screened the most. In addition, American authorities have asked Russia to strengthen security in Moscow International Airport "Sheremetyevo".

Such toughening of security measures has to do with the recent terrorist acts aboard two planes Tu-134 and Tu-154 on the Russian territory.
"PRAVDA.Ru"
[Link: english.pravda.ru...]

Read the original in Russian: (Translated by: Anna Ossipova)

#98 golden J

I guess the BBC ignores the Russian government.

Moscow. Counsellor of Russian President Aslambek Aslahanov said at a press conference that terrorists have shot at the children’s backs and have killed them with their rifles’ butts. Several explosions have been registered as well while the rescue teams have taking out the bodies of the killed.

Yeah...that sounds like "qualms" to me.

#77 Patrizio

Well, get the racist out.

Seriously, My mother has been held by al-qeada as a hostage, and even I don't subscribe to mass murder.

Freedom, and democracy really will work. It just takes time. (See Japan, Germany, and USSR)

Mass murder does NOT work... (See Japan, Germany, and USSR)

OK?

Putin is friends with the Lubavitcher chief rabbi in Moscow, Berel Lazar.

There's your Jewish connection to feed the "cycle of violence"

/sarcasm

#42 lahawk:

Here's a serious question, how did the Russian authorities know they were Arabs? Was it because of an ethnic appearance, ID, or some combination thereof?

The motherf***ers were heard speaking Arabic.

Also, Arab "volunteers" have long been operating in Chechnya, this is known.

They seem to particularly enjoy things like cutting the heads off Russian prisoners and civilians, BTW.

It seems to be one of the characteristics of their sick, perverted and ultimately doomed so-called culture.

I happened to wake up very early this morning and saw the live feeds coming into the cable news channels.

The absolute ineptness of the Russian authorities seems unforgivable. Can anything be more important than this
attack by islamic terrorists? When I saw the absolute chaos my heart was breaking. Those poor children and their families...the horror of it unfolding live.

As an American, it is expected that the Russians will lie about all aspects of this horror. From the number of hostages to what actually happened. They have not progressed very far in their lame attempts to cover-up their shortcomings.

How can they let terrorists leave this building with more hostages? How can the rescue attempts be so disorganized? Why are civilians attempting to pursue and kill them instead of the special forces?

My heart goes out to what may be thousands of Russians with injured and killed family members.

Some pictures from the BBC report. Made me cry. Made me wonder when that will happen here, at one of our schools.

More pictures.

#101 Buck

Seriously, My mother has been held by al-qeada as a hostage ...

Whoa. What's the story behind that?

My heart goes out to those poor children and their families! May Hashem help them!

As for the terrorists - they should try to take a few of them alive, for interrogation purposes, find out where they came from, who trianed them, etc., then crucify them after wrapping them in pigskin and cutting off their genitals, if they have any (sorry pigs, but this is war).

As for the next step, Chechneya has to be cleansed of terrorists, if necessary by wholesale arrests and deportations of terrorists sympathizers. Russia can and should find out which Islamic countries (Saudi Arabia and Iran come to mind) are supporting these rabid animals, and retaliate accordingly.

98 Golden Jerusalem

Have some sympathy for the poor BBC. They are serving two masters here -- former-communism and Islam.

In America the media have a distinct advantage. So as not to have to look Islam in the face, they can lead with the convention, the hurricane and Clinton's heart. The poor Beeb has to nuance this one to death.

Does anyone have a link to that famous cartoon of the Palestinian shooting from behind a stroller while the IDF soldier shoots back while protecting a stroller?

Re the pictures linked by #106 THUNDER:

Many of the children seem to be missing pieces of clothing - many of them are in their underwear.

Anyone have an idea on WTF is the deal with that?

#100 Darleen:

When the BBC piece of *** on the scene made that statement, it was right after the first explosions.

Whar really pisses me off is that she would make such an inane and completely unfounded assumption.

Not to mention the fact that they've been busy blaming Putin and the Russian forces, in fact everyone but the psychotic ***ers, who walked into a school with grenades, guns and explosives and starterd murdering indiscriminately.

Frank Gardner got what he deserved.

The bitch that's the BBC correspondent on the scene in Beslan said at first that the fact that the first children who she saw had escaped had mostly leg wounds indicated that the "hostage-takers" (as they're called) had "some sort of conscience". She then elaborated on this rather shocking statement and suggested that the noble "hostage takers" had qualms about murdering children.

If they had 'qualms' about putting children in harms way why would they have seized the school in the first place?

105 k
the initial chaos looked like it was fed by local "militia" and police efforts... it took a while to get real troops on the line.
before you cast stones, consider, were this to happen in hartford, cn, there would be a similar lag between onset and the arrival of a solid, cohesive force.
even police swat teams are not staffed & equipped to set up and maintain a firing line or lay siege to a group of 3 dozen well-armed invaders.

#60 FrankNH

Had to go for a while... you're right. And now I have to go again.

111 thom
the heat... over 95 f there, and hotter in the building

#95 & #101

I stand by my post. I think the reasonable thing is to go on with the whole Democracy and Liberalism thing. However, it will take decades, and neither Europe nor Russia have jumped on the boat yet.

On the other hand, beyond reason, my sadistic and vengeful animal instinct tells me it's much easier to just get rid of them the good old fashioned way. It's basic survival and even in this age of supposed enlightment it's a most considerable practice.

I would like to add a very special calling to any woman who might be reading this. Doesn't your maternal instict wake vengeful thoughts in your mind? I think women should be at the forefront of our Crusade to destroy our enemies.

117 p
that's usually referred to around here as the "roman option" or "going roman" (check out what's left of carthage)

#104 Am Infidel

I don't know enough, where to start is crazy making but at least Bush answered the wakeup call three years ago while Kerry's getting the wake up call (about Vietnam) now.

I'm rooting for the Bush War Department team (and our coalition of the willing) who along with Israel are the only organized offensive teams out there trying to beat islamofascists & change their culture & give hope & freedom & all the fruits of Western civ., etc. no matter how hard they resist.

Cheryl Benard is author of "Veiled Courage: Inside the Afghan Women's Resistance." It's a start.

#101 Buck

Mass murder does NOT work... (See Japan, Germany, and USSR)

Just to point out, those countries were using mass murder as tools to further their goals and it was only the total war (mass fire bombings, atomic bombs, invasion) of free countries (Germany/Japan) that made them stop. Democracy was only implemented after alot of bloodshed and disposal of the old regimes.

Regarding the asymetric warfare that will be needed to combat Islam, I don't see how you are going to be able to avoid it.

#120 Buckeye Abroad

I have no problem with warfare. Warfare used to bring about liberty, and democracy.

Patrizio was talking about something else. Simple mass murder to 'clean' a population of any terrorist, or islamo fascist.

#116 sgt tom

Hmm ... makes sense.

OTOH, I sure as well wouldn't be disrobing in front of those psychotics.

Just learned about this... despicable act from islamic freedom fighters...

Why do innocent children have to suffer the anguish of being secluded from their normal lives?

...and afterwards cowardly shot by people blinded with hate, who hide behind a banner of independence?

Shoot them, shoot the bastards. But let them die slowly. a fair trial is too much for these terror mongers.

Too bad Islam is being tainted with such dirty representatives. Too bad their closed minds cannot grasp the beauty of living in peace. I look forward to the day when the mad muhlah's are dragged outside their ratholes, exposed like the low living SOB's they are, i look forward to the day when these sick infra-humans and thier zombified death cultists are shut down for good. Every free person in the world deserves and demmands this.

*sigh* and to the moonbats... may god shed some light in their insignificant lives. there is hope that they can understand this is the good side.

God bless Charles, LGF and all the lizardoids, thanks for making the rest of us well informed. Thank you all.

Precisely. We must bring humiliation and death to the cities of our enemies so that they understand the undeniable inferiority of their civilization. When they look at the mirror and realize that the past 1000 years have earned them nothing, while the rest of the World moved on, then hopefully they will understand. Clearly the path passes through massive war and a united front coming from the West. To do that, we must eliminate all hostile Muslim elements inside our borders and discredit all fifth columnists in our midst.

I believe Democracy and Liberalism are universal. We will see them in our lifetime in the "Dar al-Islam". However, in days like these, the "Dark Side" option of gassing and nuking them all is quite appealing.

125 p
yer startin' ta sound like a someone i read about...

i think his name was adolf

#125 Patrizio

People who have been nuked don't look into a mirror, they are the mirror.

Perhaps you have a better solution?

Buck

I meant the kind of war the Russians like to wage, non-nuclear but conventional with massive amounts of violence and ordinance.

#128 Patrizio:

Wow. Wait 'til you meet bigel.

It's going to be a long hard battle with these murdering bastards, and frankly I don't have the answers, if I did I would be a rich man, we just have to trust in our Military and our President to fight the fight for us, however, I suggest everyone prepare yourselves in case you have to fight the yourselves.

#114 sgt. tom

You're right about the problems of control in a situation like that at the Russian school. I remember how the police initially reacted in the Columbine massacre which perpetrated by two teenagers, not dozens of terrorists armed with automatic weapons and explosives. In the US the local police in any urban/suburban location would be completely out-numbered and out-gunned and it would undoubtedly take many hours for regular Army troops to arrive. Meanwhile anxious, hysterical parents would have to be calmed and contained while a media frenzy developed; it would be utter chaos for a long time.

#111 Thom

I'd imagine it relates to the heat in the building. But for the younger of them, it wouldn't surprise me if there had been some "accidents" requiring them to strip for sanitary reasons. I doubt the terrorists were concerning themselves with providing diapers for the babies.

I particularly noted how thin and dehydrated the children appeared.

Stinking savages. I sincerely hope that those 13 reported holed up in that house as citizens shoot at it are soiling themselves with fear. That just "feels" just to me.

This Patrizio item is a MOBY.

Clean-up!

over and out.

#129 Patrizio
Well, that might be what you meant, but this is what you said:

#31 - "kill 1.400.000 savages" and "practice collective punishment. First stop, nuclear strike in Makka. "
#45 - "The entire population of Chechnya should be gassed"
#77 - "I am an angry racist Westerner" and "we can solve this conflict is by completely eradicating them from this Earth"
and
#125 - "the "Dark Side" option of gassing and nuking them all is quite appealing. "

Perhaps you can see why we might think you were a racist interested in mass murder based on race and religion.

#135

Are you by any chance aged thirteen?

132 ai
i know who vdh is... as i read his articles long before they get posted here (i get up a little early).
not interested in coddling my enemy...
but not interested in talking about gassing & exterminating entire civilian populations, either.

#135 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb):

In light of Buck's #136, I think you're right. I note that Patrizio joined us just today. Either a moby or a bigel wannabe. Either way, bad news.

Arabs are the scourge of the earth it seems. I personally refer all occupiers of Israeli territory Arabs.

Who did theWTC? Mostly Arabs. Fact.
Who invaded the Olympic Village in 1972? Arabs. Fact.
Who butchered children today in Russia? Arabs. Fact.

ARAB is a four letter word. Fact.

Citizen militias will have to be formed at the grass-roots level all across America. The Feds are too PC to take the Islamic menace seriously. If you have doubts about the 2nd Amendment, you should realize...if Muslim zealots storm your local mall/supermarket/school, the Feds & local officials will be too constrained and hamstrung by PC to deliever effective countermeasures. It's not paranoia--- it's smart to prepare for such an eventuality.

Buck

Of course I support all those things. But in that post about bringing death to their cities I was referring to a more reasonable war, the kind that is waged on the Palestinians and that seems to be effective at demoralizing them. It's quite obvious that you can't humiliate Muslims if they have been consumed by the nuclear fire.

Also, I don't have a problem in stating that I am one pissed-off right wing fanatic who does not consider human rights apply to his enemies. I'm a "racist" in the sense that I think that anyone who practices the Islamic religion is inferior, but I don't relate that to a "race" or any sort of genetic explanation. The real reason is the sanatic necrophiliac nihilistic cult that Islam is, an evil creation that seems to permeate the entire lives of its believers. By that I mean they cannot separate life from religion, like we learned in the West.

132 ai
and this patrizio poster reads with the same snotty attitude that "petesy" used to use.
probably never fired anything over .50 cal in its life.
a definite moby.

Aircraft recon shows Frances still getting weaker, positively not a Cat 3 anymore. I'd call it a strong Cat 2 myself, but I can see why NHC wouldn't want to downgrade it, have people decide not to flee, only to get trapped if Frances does ramp up agains when it hits the 30C water the other side of the Bahamas.

NHC says still a Cat 3, but we know better.

MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS ARE NEAR 115 MPH...185 KM/HR...WITH HIGHER
GUSTS. SOME FLUCTUATIONS IN INTENSITY ARE FORECAST DURING THE NEXT 24 HOURS.

HURRICANE FORCE WINDS EXTEND OUTWARD UP TO 85 MILES...140 KM... FROM THE CENTER...AND TROPICAL STORM FORCE WINDS EXTEND OUTWARD UP
TO 185 MILES...295 KM. NASSAU IN THE BAHAMAS HAS BEEN EXPERIENCING GUSTS TO HURRICANE FORCE FOR THE PAST SEVERAL HOURS WITH A PEAK OF 84 MPH...141 KM/HR...AT NOON.

#122 Buck

I have no problem with warfare. Warfare used to bring about liberty, and democracy.

Ah, WWII was fought for our survival, not to spread liberty and demcracy. That was (thankfully) the fall out after winning the war.

The Dresden bombing had little military significance, but it didn't stop the allied bombers from killing 100,000 people. Is this considered mass murder to kill so many for a few german soldiers? I think this is simply total war as I have no doubts our enemies would have not hesitated doing the same (eg. London blitz).

Hello A.I. how are you?

There is nothing in past history that will compare to the upcoming battle that is to come with these murderers, and I mean nothing, as Zell would say "you ain't seen nothing yet", I still love the way he got on hanoi john the Traitor, like kerry shot his dog.

#139

With all due respect sir...

but the enemy do consider that possibility...

question is... how to properly disable these people, with minimal civilian loss?

Please excuse me if i get a bit out of topic.

I looked up in the LGF FAQ what a "moby" is, and I'm not one. That whole "town watch" act you're trying to pull is funny. I am here to read different opinions, which I've been doing for months if not years, and most of all, to tell people how I feel. Few people in "real life" seem to share my views, which shouldn't surprise anyone.

patrizio = petesy

just sayin

#143 Patrizio

In the same way that I wish moderate muslim's would condemn Islamic Fascism, I condemn you and your point of view.

I have come face to face with the evil we both hate, and I see the same evil (racist superiority) in your postings.

I will engage you no more.

If you thought you would find like minded individuals here, you were mistaken. Go else where.

149 cheko
attack and defend.
both at once.
defend ourselves as best we can, and continue to take the fight to them.

because i don't want to see us get into the mode we were 150 years ago...
remember the context of the quote "nits make lice"

#153

Thank you for your reply :)

I've written a dozen letters to the editor of my newspaper in the last month, talking about terror issues. I was careful not to go "overboard" with my observations; conservatives know they can't be too clever or make their points too well...liberal editors will never publish those letters. None of my 12 letters were published, while they run daily dreck from screeching liberals, blaming America for all the world's problems. That's why I've given up completely on big city liberal newspapers. It's such a whitewash. Anyway, I have far more fun--- and read vastly greater insights-- right here in LGF. Thank goodness for the panacea against illogic to be found here at LGF.

154 cheko
had i been ignoring you? was focused on another thread (whisky was involved!)

there are better ways to win a war than mass murder. even if it means limited mass murder as an example (e.g. dresden, tokyo, hiroshima, nagasaki). but totally exterminating a population? you're likely to find that most troops won't go for it.

#135, Lady of Shallott. That Patrazio fellah' sure does appear to live in a world at least 3 standard devations from the mean. Perhaps he needs to find a homeless shelter for sociopaths.

#146 Buckeye Abroad--- The Dresden bombing killed vast numbers of civilians (and a few soldiers, as you say), but it was principally aimed at wrecking Hitler's industrial base, which was mass-producing munitions and tanks and other weapons of war.

Later gang - off to the airport.

Have a great weekend all - See you on Tuesday.

#114 sgt tom:

Tom, they had two and a half to three days before this happened. What is more important than cordonning off the area and getting their OMON and other special forces on site?

Look, once they (islamic murders) got into the school with all the children and families, there was only one outcome possible. But mitigating the lose of life was paramont. Capturing and interrogating a few of these barbarians was next important.

As far as Hartford, CT. I think you are wrong about that as well. Sure, if madmen took over a school and immediately started killing people it would be chaotic. But if they stayed there for two or three days, they would have been surrounded.

Remember after the hostage crisis in moscow at the theater? Most of the hostages died because they were left to detox from the gas insted of being taken wholesale to the hospital, and the government wouldn't tell the doctors what agent they used.

I can only imagine how the Russian people must feel, seeing naked and bloody children, their children, and having Pravda issue statements that the school is under control, and then seeing western media correspondents ducking for cover from the remaining terrorists still firing from the school. And then learning something like twenty more left the school with children to hole up in another building?

That reminds me. About how much these animals like to use "truces" and ambulances and civilized procedures to commit more barbarism.

*** sgt tom wrote:
the initial chaos looked like it was fed by local "militia" and police efforts... it took a while to get real troops on the line.
before you cast stones, consider, were this to happen in hartford, cn, there would be a similar lag between onset and the arrival of a solid, cohesive force.
even police swat teams are not staffed & equipped to set up and maintain a firing line or lay siege to a group of 3 dozen well-armed invaders.

#157

You're also likely to find it is quite effective. Anyway, I wish to clarify and state once again that I am calling for genocidal actions because this is a special day. Savages are killing our children, using them as human shields, and who knows what else. And this not to mention the stuff going on everywhere Muslims decide they don't like "infidels", no matter where it is.

At least I say what I believe and don't hide behind some pretentious moral posturing, like other people here do.

#146 Buckeye Abroad
"WWII was fought for our survival, not to spread liberty and demcracy"

I disagree. Then why stick around after the war? Why spend $$$ to help rebuild Europe, and Japan?

Once we could confirm our survival (Germany and Japan defeated), why didn't we just pack our bags and go home. Let them pick up their own shattered lives, and fight for their own survival. Or better yet, march whole populations into extermination camps. We would assure our survival.

Nope, didn't do that... We assured our own survival by helping our former enemy find freedom, and a voice in their future.

We knew that it was the only long term solution. Then, and even now.

We are nowhere near Total War in fighting radical Islam, but our current strategies/countermeasures are woefully inadequate. Just about all of us agree on that issue. Most of the civilized world is unwilling to face the threat/ prefer to keep their heads buried in the sand/hope for a separate peace. Ironically, Muslim killers themselves may eventually drive their de facto allies (like France, Germany) into our arms, by overreaching and launching terror attacks in those places. Islam is like a snake, striking blindly in all directions, biting friend and foe alike. There was a failed attack in Spain shortly after the Madrid bombings/ascension of the appeasing socialist govt. Would've been interesting to see how that would have influenced Spanish policy. A smarter tactic by the Islamoterrorists would've been to keep Israel and America isolated by attacking only those 2. But now they're after Russia, Spain, et al...a tactical miscalculation in the long run, in my view.

I did 6 years in the Navy and never fired a 50 cal either, for that matter.

#165 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C

I did 6 years in the Navy and never fired a 50 cal either, for that matter.

I took my son on Fort Bragg, he shot the Barrett... :-Þ

#164

Quite right. The day Europe wakes up, the war will reach its turning point. Until then, the West remains divided and therefore more vulnerable to incidents like today's.

The alarming thing is that not even Madrid managed to provoke a change in the way Europeans think.

Who is this Patrizio moby clown?

148

Well, it may strengthen back up to a real Cat 3 over the Gulf stream, and the slower motion means widespread 10 to 20 ich rains (25 to 50 cm) will fall over much of central and northern Florida, leading to perhaps all time catastrophic freshwater flooding in much of Florida and Georgia.

Such lovely people. Great way to welcome someone btw.

#170 Patrizio Moby

Great way to welcome someone btw.

What makes you think you are welcome here?

#171 reaganite

LOL. Presumptuous li'l bastard, ain't he?

#171

Gee! Attitude, like I wasn't expecting that. You are so tough.

Why don't you leave the act behind and instead discuss the issues?

While we pacified Germany & Japan after WWII and successfully rebuilt those countries, planting the seeds of democracy...I'm not at all optimistic we can do the same with Islamic countries. Germany & Japan, for all their totalitarian madness during the war, were highly advanced, educated, culturally modern in every sense of the word. Their people were literate, they shared basic civilized traditions with the West (in many ways), etc. Germany gave the world Goethe, Beethoven, and Einstein. Japan had its own unique, advanced culture-- and were greatly adept at copying/absorbing the West's technical advancements. None of this remotely applies to Islamic countries. Civilizing/democratizing them is a hopeless exercise, I believe.

#172 Thom

LOL. Presumptuous li'l bastard, ain't he?

Bastard is the operative word there!

#169 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C

Thanks Ed. I do believe you know more about these storms than any of the talking heads I see on TV. I'm going home tonight and putting up the plywood anyway. I'm a bit north of Tampa and it looks like Frances is going to hit north of me, but I still expect a good down pour.

165 ed
yeah, but you can read a radar screen, and i can't.
:)
161 kiernan
i am not clear about the timeline for the various video feeds i've seen. the area seemed pretty remote. and i saw plenty of contrast between armed, but sloppily-uniformed folks (my guess is militia & local police) and a tightly drilled group of troops deploying in line of battle this morning.
as to the hartford scenario... these are not madmen. even tho we think of them as crazy, they are pretty deliberate. if 30 soldiers took a school hostage like this, it would take us some time (not going to specify anything to do with ops) to get organzied, after everyone realized that swat team and police couldn't handle it. look at how well-equipped these folks were. they have been popping ammunition like there was plenty to spare... not your normal crazed gunman holed up with hostages!

Why don't you leave the act behind and instead discuss the issues?

The issue is simple, you are a deranged sociopath. Bugger off.

175 reaganite
patrizio = petesy

i'm 95% sure of it

#174

I think you make some excellent points, but Islam did have a great civilization once, so they do have something to build upon.

I worry more about the time we have to civilize Africa, for example. The Islamic world has all the potential to be free, democratic and prosperous, but as I said before, a reform of its cultural core is required. Just like Western civilization reformed itself in the name of reason and humanism, so must the Islamic one. That's what I believe.

#179 sgt tom
You may be right.

#170 Patrizio,

When you make idiotic comments here, be careful, for you have ventured into a den of big dogs, and we will bite you if you are stupid, if you want to post then be constructive, not an LLL idiot.

182

I was the one who was attacked on a personal level first. I'm here because I want to read more rational and better argumented opinions than mine, that will calm me down after today's atrocities and lead me back to the ideas I usually defend.

#170 Patrizio

Such lovely people. Great way to welcome someone btw.

Yes, most of us are lovely.

But why would we welcome a self-confessed genocidal, extreme right wing racist?

Just in case you don't know, this website doesn't belong to you - or to us. It belongs to Charles Johnson, and he is the one who catches all the flack when others quote people like you and accuse him (and us) of being genocidal, extreme right wing racists. You might be proud of being all those things, but most decent people don't want to be any of them.

Awful as the attacks in Madrid and Russia are, it strengthens America's hand. Leftists of the Chomsky ilk who keep straining to "understand" and "explain" Islamoshitheads will grow fewer in number, especially as attacks mount in such disparate and unconnected locales (Philippines, Thailand, and so on) and it sounds increasingly incomprehensible to blame America or Israel. We may yet gain some more allies, but it's going to take time & more attacks before people see the utter folly of appeasing Islam.

#184

Then I'll happily state for the record that I'm perfectly aware that the views I expressed before are in no way connected to Charles Johnson's, and that I am aware of how extremist they are.

lots of trolls out today... one on the vdh thread too.
must be the training holiday!

Breaking on UK news - three terrorists taken alive, one of them a woman.

Ten of the dead terrorists are Arabs.

The word 'terrorist' is being used on the independent news channels here.

#185

I wish somehow the ideas of the right wing were more appealing at first glance than the ideas of the left wing. It's such a shame that most people, especially the young, see the world through the Chomsky prism. I wish writings like Jean-François Revel's were more popular.

#183 Patrizio

I'm here because I want to read more rational and better argumented opinions than mine...

Friendly advice: stick to reading.

ed m

biggest thing i ever got to fire was a chapparel... (ft hood) forerunner to the patriot. but that was a one time deal. makes a swell bang!

190 thom
how much you wanna bet it moves its lips when it reads?
:)

#111 Thom

One little girl, being interviewed afterwards, said that the terrorists wouldn't allow them to open the windows, in spite of the heat, and they felt as if they were suffocating.

#190

Funny, I felt like venting my hatred today. Personally, I think anyone who is not outraged by the images coming out of Beslan is an imbecile. You may choose or not to express it, or even in the terms I used, but I am still right. We must fight our enemies with brutal force, period.

It is possible Patrizio isn't trolling, and is just having a genocidal outburst that would make Bigel cringe.

#195

Finally someone who understands. I don't mind the constant trolling on other people's part though, flaming gets out the creative side out of everyone.

#186 Patrizio

Then I'll happily state for the record that I'm perfectly aware that the views I expressed before are in no way connected to Charles Johnson's, and that I am aware of how extremist they are.

Do you think you could include that disclaimer in every post, please? Or at least any posts with genocidal, right wing, or racist content.

Of course, no need to use it with, for instance, a discussion with Ed Moran about the weather.

#195 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C

It is possible Patrizio isn't trolling, and is just having a genocidal outburst that would make Bigel cringe.

I don't know about that but CP/PBUM is going to love this moby. Until it gets banned anyway.

#180--- I think Islam is irredeemable. It was a "great" civilization once because it was so ruthless & effective at warfare. Anybody who has read the Koran can understand that the terrorists are telling the truth when they say mass murder, oppression & bloodshed is divinely ordained by the Koran. This makes any "reform" of Islam extremely problematic, if not impossible. Where is the Muslim Einstein, the Muslim Guttenberg, the Muslim Edison? Their greatest heroes-- Muhammad, Saladin, Osama-- are/were all genocidal maniacs.

Was the Chaparal the jeep mounted Sidewinder?

Or am I thinking of something else.?

#200

Supposing that were true, which it seems, wouldn't that leave us with two options?:

1 - Complete separation and isolation from them

2 - Extermination

I still want to believe Islam can be reformed. If the Japanese can be tamed, then surely a bunch of Arabs with too much heat up their heads can be calmed as well. They do have nice beaches...

194 patrizio
or perhaps some people are more inured to the results of war & violence. i've taken some photos that weren't exactly pretty.
consider that the company you're among here includes a lot of veterans and active duty folks. controlling ourselves is part of the deal. it's also what makes a better warrior... we don't "do" war out of hate or anger, but calm (well, i guess that's relative) and deadly. you get a better sight picture that way.

ploome,

One good thing about this, and I do pray for the poor people in Russia, is that the whole world is starting to see that the USA was right. This is becoming global and soon they will all join us in the fight against these murdering animals, and that is how they will lose.

We're going to have to do something about these f**king Arabs one of these days -- sooner than later. Innocent folks the world are over are being butchered by these savages.

202 ed
nope, mounted up on a dedicated carrier, plus a command&control vehicle married up to it. shoot, on a jeep, the poor jeep would've been lying on its side!
it was a big honker... and during night firing, one of 'em went wild, took a hard left turn and was headed straight to killean, tx before the self-destruct took it down.
kinda upset the range guys.

#204

Fair enough. But then we will agree that you or those veterans speak from that point of view, and I from mine. Having experienced war doesn't give someone more authority or better qualifications to speak about it.

I am sure seeing the horrors of war would make a more reluctant warrior out of me. Luckily I haven't.

OK, I don't know what I was thinking of, but I once saw a photo of a small-truck/jeep carrying what looked like multiple AIM-9 missiles for battlefield close air defense.

Hi Ed, I think you are speaking of the 106 recoilless rifle that was jeep mounted, I hope we still have them, that was a deadly weapon.

Daniel Pipes reports that America has "fulfilled" more than half the criteria needed to fit the description of a dhimmi nation (commemorative Muslim postage stamps, Koranic prayer readings in Congress, the adhan in Michigan, NJ, Arkansas, et al, etc.). Sha'ria we will never submit to, unless the Democrats take over all branches of govt. But Islamokillers are patient--- they waited 8 long years between attacks on the WTC. If they can gradually bring their agenda to bear on our culture & politics (with the help of CAIR, university professors, a symapthetic news media), they can soften us up for the real violence to come.

#211

I think you're exaggerating, and so is Pipes. Put those things in perspective, they are insignificant.

Now "Eurabia", that's a real danger. The USA is immune to Islamic cultural penetration as far as its essence goes. I find that very ironic, considering European culture is of course much older than the American one.

Firebreather,

You can bet your A** that this Veteran will not be softened up. Like I posted earlier, I can pile them up in my front yard until the calvalry comes, and don't you doubt me for one minute, my friend.

Don't you get it??? If it hadn't been for the persecution of the Czars and the Russians in general, the Jooos wouldn't have fled Russia and there'd probably be no Israel. So of course the Jooos are to blame!!!

#205 'Nam Grunt-- Wish I shared your optimism that the world is coming around. I think you're basically right, but I don't think it's happening fast enough. They still denounce us in Japan, Korea, and just about everywhere else. I've always wondered-- when we consider the "root causes" of trendy global anti-americanism, why we never talk about the psychology of the America-haters. Freud had a phrase, I believe: "Penis envy." Many denounce us not because of our policies--- but because they feel inferior, ineffectual and small. Penis envy.

210 nam grunt (and ed)
the chap is here:
m730a2

#212 Patrizio

Considering the vast credibility you've established here, as opposed to Daniel Pipes, not to mention your cogent, detailed argument, I'll be giving your opinion its due attention.

#215

Many of the anti-Americans hate that country based on a wicked and completely wrong image. To them, Americans are nothing but a bunch of racist cynics whose every action is based on defending their interests and getting more oil.

A real distortion; I blame local leftist politicians and biased media sources, which are also of bad quality.

#201 ploome hineni

Mordor needs you

austin is fighting alone...:-)

Just sharpening me sword...

/sharpening noises

Mordor here I come!

Firebreather,

It's all about 'setting the example', when these murdering bastards start attacking all of these countries, I assure you that they will come around because we, the USA is going to be their last hope, and also the people in these countries are going to start raising hell when their families are slaughtered for no reason, the little people love the USA, and they will force their governments to side with us. Know it! Believe it!

#217

I like what Daniel Pipes writes, especially his denounciations of fifth columnists in American academia.

However, his contention that stamps celebrating Islam and a Quranic prayer reading or two in Congress are significant steps in the road to Dhimmitude is laughable. Nice try.

All the more reason to be thankful we have a 2nd Amendment for times of crisis when the Feds and local law enforcement can't break up a hostage-type situation because of PC or hamstrung policies. Local militias will have to take things into their own hands if a school/mall/supermarket falls into terrorist hands.

#221 Patrizio

Death by a thousand cuts.

#50 Ed Moran, #78 Addison, Yes, but it's also true. Actually I wan him to live a long, long time. At least long enough to see what a REAL president is like.

Fox has been calling the Chechens terrorists all day. I haven't heard the connection with islam yet, however. Kerry is sounding more and more like a wet towel trying to throw a temper tantrum.

#222

A precedent for anarchy...the legitimation of militias by the Founding Fathers had to do with very different things. I don't see the good or the better in citizen militias assaulting buildings taken by terrorists. I say leave military matters to the military.

#223

Huh?

sgt. tom. hey buddy,

Wooohooo, you made my day, that's a bad motherf*cker!!

I'll defend Pipes, Emerson, Lewis, Fregosi et al...because they were WAY AHEAD of the curve before 9/11. They were dismissed as cuckoo birds & racists in the 90s when they spoke the truth about Islam. Their many detractors at CAIR and CNN are the ones with PC egg all over their discredited faces.

220 Nam Grunt. Thanks for your service in Nam. Also, did you note the T-Shirt on one of the rescuers? LOL.

#226 Patrizio

Every concession to these people, no matter how small, is a slide into dhimmitude.

There are no moslems in Congress. So WTF do they need a goddamned imam to say a prayer?

Because they're bending over to kiss moslem ass. Dhimmis.

#228

So that means anything they write is automatically right? I don't find the Dhimmitude index you referred to to be particularly reasonable. I think few authors have managed to be consistently correct in everything they write. Victor Hanson and Charles Krauthammer come to mind.

Patrizio, there are many psrts of the world where the military is what the citizens need to protect themselves FROM! No, a little vigalante action is not bad -- it's when it over takes the law that this causes a problem. In Russia the vigilatnes are taking over justice they're supplementing it.

rabidfox,

No I didn't enlighten me please.

#230

I'm not challenging the fact that those prayers and all the other measures are wrong. I'm also not challenging the fact that they are acts of Dhimmitude.

What I disagree with is saying they are part of a greater trend towards real actual Dhimmitude. I say it can't happen in the USA, but it can in Europe/Eurabia.

Nam Grut. The guy on the right had a LARGE US flag on his T-Shirt. Loved it even while I was grieving for the reason for the picture.

As for the criteria leading to dhimmitude, none of the criteria were met 30 or 40 years ago. Death by a thousand cuts is real. Just takes time. Not every empire collapses overnight like the Soviet Union. Rome didn't collapse in a day or a decade, it took the gales of the centuries. Why would America necessarily be any different?

#232

It's true, but it's also true it's not the case of the United States (that there is some sort of military tyranny or negligence on their part).

#236

Because there's just something about America :D

227 nam grunt
well, it wasn't my toy, but i did get to play with it... nuts, man, they scared the heck out of me... comes off the rail with a big whoosh!
and when they go bang! ouch!

#235

It wouldn't supprise me if either they had family here in the US or bought it from someone who did. My inlaws make the weekly pilgrimage to Goodwill to load up several boxes to send to family in Moscow and Dniepropetrovsk for them to sell to supplement their income.

PC is dhimmitude...the media refusing to call the Chechens by their proper names (terrorists or Muslims) is dhimmitude...speech codes on college campuses suppressing debate is dhimmitude...op-ed writers saying America is barbaric and Islam is peace (is dhimmitude)...Clinton or Noam Chomsky or Eric Foner saying America (or white men of people of European descent) is responsible for acts of terror is dhimmitude...Hollywood idiots forcing us to bomb the Serbs is dhimmitude...the fact that we have to meet here in secret on LGF -- and not speak our thoughts openly in public--- is an EXAMPLE OF DHIMMITUDE!!!

sgt tom,

Just another reason I'm so proud of our capability to kill these a** holes, when they see that bad boy roll up in front of them just think of the fear, especially these dumba** camel jockies, with stamped out AK-47's, and BS RPG's...just sayin!

242 nam grunt
hey man, it's to shoot down missiles (and planes)... it's the forerunner to the patriot missile battery!
but it flat lays out a tongue of flame...
i can't tell you how scared of the backblast on that thing i am!

#234 Patrizio

Why the hell not? moslems are now a very small minority, and already we're in full appease/concede mode.

What's going to happen when they are not numerically insignificant?

well, i hear the air conditioning shutting down. not so subtle hint that it's time to leave the office.
will catch y'all later

#241

Haha, take it easy. I see your point, very interesting. Alarming enumeration, but political correctness and those aspects of Dhimmitude come from the perverse leftist side of our own civilization, not from the Muslims. They would have us die, not be their slaves. Those things you mentioned, much like affirmative action or the constant inversions of historical truths are just some of the baggage we carry because some people in the left hate themselves.

Instead of caring about those demonstrations of soft power, maybe we should focus on giving the Muslims a display of good old hard power.

You are still right on that we should try to get rid of it all though.

Dhimmitude can happen gradually. We don't grow old in a day--- we don't even see ourselves aging. But it happens, relentlessly, if slowly. Prayer sessions in congress is just an overt, visible symptom. What about PC? What about the self-censorship we all engage in with our co-workers or family? What about the gradual losses of freedom of speech? What about the babbling idiots in the media talking gibberish? Are these not even more sinsiter symptoms of dhimmitude?

#244

That's where weblogs like this one or some of the authors mentioned here come in. We must denounce the surrender of Western civilization to the barbaric codes these savages employ, even when they are not demanding it and its our useful idiots who voluntarily do it.

I am particularly outraged at the use of the term "militant". It pisses me off so much, especially today with the whole Beslan thing. I'm used to reading the term, but actually hearing a BBC reporter say "militant" or "separatist" made me want to rip his lungs off.

We are accommodationists. It's great-- until we welcome killers into our society with open arms.

#247

The left has that too...look at their new anti-semitism. They don't go out saying the Jews are the source of all evil plain and simply like the Germans did, but employ different methods, "theories" and catch-phrases to do it.

Nowadays, no one goes out and says plainly what they think. I got flamed pretty hard earlier today for doing just that , and in this blog of all places.

Check it out, the prototypical cynical journalist who doesn't believe in anything and is neutral to all causes:

"Shall We Hop Over To Fallujah?"

patrizio,

I apologize to you, for my rude comments, you seem to make a great deal of sense to me.

Besides, the Left and the Islamic killers use/exploit each other to achieve common goals and common objectives. The Left feels itself out of power in America-- just a bunch of chattering intellectuals, they no longer have the White House, the congress, the Supreme Court (even if they do own the media & universities). So when Islamic fanatics attack us, the Left sees an opening...an opportunity...a way back to power. But this requires that they undermine our society further, smoothing the path for radical Islam. Together, they work to topple the existing order of things. Their methods differ, but many of their goals are the same. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." That's how the Left sees Islam-- they have a common enemy, namely, George Bush.

OT---Patrizio sounds a tad hysterical. He also sounds more than a tad too proud of being "An angry racist Westerner", and of his "Sadistic, vengeful, animal instincts." He also makes asnine suggestions, such as Crusading Mommies.

He's either a Moby, or he needs to go lie down somewhere and take a nap for a few hours---or a few days.

As an atheist, all I have to say is "Onward, Christian soldiers..."

Katie Coric is still calling them "militants" even as the count of dead children goes up. She is evil.

I don't know about this patrizio guy, I think maybe he has a valid point and think I'll give him his say, he is undoubtedly more smart than I am, but that doesn't matter, he really is making some valid points, and I would like to listen to him, so let's give him a chance to express his views, isn't that what debating is about?

#254

Thanks a lot, I do appreciate it and it is noted.

#255

Not only is that true, it's also depressing. What really surprises me is that this Left has managed to fetch approximately half of the American electorate. Bush deserves at least a 60-40 victory, and that's what I'm looking forward to in November.

You know what's funny? The only real respectable icon on the Left, John Edwards in my opinion, was put down by the voters in favor of Kerry because the latter was "more electable". A curious way to call such an out-of-the-mainstream politician. Here's to the Left and Europe recovering their dignity.

#256

I apologize if my reaction to a bunch of Russian babies being shot in the head by a bunch of Muslim savages was too much for anyone...

Thanks for the support

I'm much more calmed down now btw. But earlier today, you should've seen me, the things I was saying...

Thanks A.I.

This guy is no dummy, IMHO.

I wonder if the Ruskies are going to "offer the hand of friendship and understanding" to the ROP??

Isn't this the time to "build bridges"???

Nah,,,it's time to fight, and clean the scum from this planet---enough is ENOUGH!

It's obviously taking some time for the Russian government to declare what its response will be, but why aren't they starting the basic mobilizations?

Why don't they do things like fly air patrols everywhere, call up the Reserves, activate the nuclear arsenal, cut relations with Muslim dictatorships, etc.? Just to give their enemies that general sense of uneasiness and fear they like so much to inflict upon others: terror.

#267

Yeah, those are the realities of statesmanship. What bothers me is that they soon lead to stalling, realism (as in: the school of thought), inaction, etc.

I guess it's part of the problem of fighting these limited wars. It really is a curse upon humanity that all that oil is in the hands of peninsulars Arabs, Iraqis and Iranians.

Regarding the Saudis, if there is one thing Kerry has got right it's the regrettably close relationship between the Bushes and the Saudis. Even if that relationship didn't exist, the USA is still in the grip of those murderous assholes. They should all be taken out by a cruise missile barrage, that's what the USA should do.

OK, this might interest Charles as well:

Actual line from today's "Le Monde" editorial:

"It equally proves that France can turn its singularity - that of being the first Muslim country in Europe and assuming it - a pacific weapon to defeat the logics of ideological and religious confrontation"

Link

Aside from any possible inaccuracies in my translation, this is possibly the most explicit display of submissiviness and Dhimmitude I've seen coming from this paper, and I study its editorials every single time they deal with these affairs.

P.S: What the editor refers to when he says "It" is the supposed fact that French diplomatic efforts will result in the release of the two journalists taken hostage.

#269

Don't forget Venezuela, especially now that that pinhead Hugo Chávez is more solid than ever in his (intended) throne.

I'm no expert on Oil, but couldn't the Western world design a system to place an embargo on Muslim Oil and consume only Mexican, Venezuelan, Russian, Nigerian, etc. Petroleum?

Or would it not be enough for our needs?

American Infidel --- I was in the midst of complimenting you for being un-PC and speaking out when my computer went dead. It's hard to speak out when the tide is pointing in the other direction. Those who disagree cut you out from the herd. I've done it (mildly, no less) and been ostracized by those who are brainwashed and/or mind-numbed. As for the 25% crude from the Saudis...are you sure it's that high (you must be talking 25% of our imported oil...not our total oil usage)? America --I'm assuming you meant America-- is nearly 50% self-sufficient, and I've read we import 25% of our imported oil from the ME--- so about 12-15% of our total oil comes from there. My figures might be dated, though.

Ya know, there's a difference between "being un-PC" and "being a foaming-at-the-mouth nutbar reflecting poorly on LGF".

"Being un-PC" does not require every other word to be a profanity, nor does it require racial slurs.

Just sayin' is all ...

Last I heard, America imported more oil from Venezuela than any other single country. Japan, by contrast (no natural resources whatsoever) imports 88% of its total oil from the ME. Canada imports a great deal of its oil from that human rights bastion, the Sudan. You already know how France colluded with Saddam & the UN to corrupt the oil-for-food program. America-haters think only America uses oil? F---g hypocrites, the lot of them.

#273 Thom-- I was referring to American Infidel's #249 passage, where he "spoke out" in public about Islamic terror. I don't think anything I've ever written on LGF could be construed as a "foaming at the mouth nutbar." I've never used profanity--- except for maybe "shit." If I say something stronger, I use hyphens (f---g). 80% of the people here do that.

#274 FB

Canada, actually. And likely to be of even more importance to America once the tar sands in Alta. are brought on full stream.

#275 Firebreather

Ooops, apologies - I wasn't referring to you!

I had in mind "masterpieces" like this.

In the process of defending this dreck, the poster in question proudly referred to its un-PCness, and I've been noodling over the exchanges that followed.

#274 FB

"Canada imports a great deal of its oil from that human rights bastion, the Sudan."

News to me, and I'm from Alberta. I'd be obliged for a cite, pls.

#280 American Infidel

Well, if that's where the LGF comments are going then I won't be hanging around.

Angry, pointless, stupid hyperbole. Yippee.

Shit. {LOL}

Angry Demented, pointless, stupid hyperbole. Yippee.

That's better.

#279 Earl--- Wish I could give you a specific citation on Canada's oil relationship with Khartoum. Sorry. I found the reference on a website right after 9/11. A lot of Sudan's oil is in the south-- where 2 million+ Christians & tribal animists were massacred by govt-backed Islamic militias in the 90s (source: Robert Spencer). I think the context of the reference (at the time) was a member of the Canadian govt denouncing Billy Graham Jr. for meddling in the Sudan.

Every single American President has had a relationship with the Sau

BS!!!

If America needs Saudi oil, they should take it!!

Call it reparations for 9-11

And flatten Mecca.

i'm baaack!
is this the fndt?

i see patrizio has calmed down.
look buddy, one of the things that i considered a red flag was your post stating that you wanted to (i'm paraphrasing roughly) hear some rational thoughts to calm you down.
bad trooper. next time, go sit down behind the tree and remember who you are.
then come back and talk.

otherwise, welcome aboard.
people DO pick on bigel, too.

besides, if 'nam grunt thinks you're ok, i won't quibble.
:)

#285 American Infidel

Yer puttin' words in my mouth. Mongo no like.

I was specifically referring to:

Demented
pointless
stupid
hyperbole

which reflects poorly on LGF and contributes nothing.

All just MHO of course.

#289 American Infidel

I'm going to drop it at this point, so don't check back on my account.

and thus ends a thread... way off topic and it sounds like everyone should move to the fndt!