LGF

-RetweetReligion of Peace Slaughters 155 Children

Sat, Sep 4, 2004 at 7:09:01 am PDT

An average person stumbling across this article might be a little surprised, because the mainstream media has effectively hidden the most important facts about the Russian school siege from the public, but the Islamic terrorists the media identifies as “Chechen rebels” are working to impose an Islamic state and shari’a law on the region: Chechen Rebels Want Own Muslim State, Laws.

Although most Chechens are Muslim, Aslan Maskhadov, who became president of Chechnya after Russian forces withdrew in 1996, was seen as relatively secular. However, he came under increasing pressure from radical Islamic factions led by warlord Shamil Basayev and eventually declared Sharia law, or Islamic law, an idea that has less support among the public at large than it does among the rebels.

Basayev was a leader of the Chechen insurgents who mounted a raid into neighboring Dagestan in 1999 with the aim of establishing an Islamic theocratic enclave. That raid was one of the Kremlin’s justifications for trying to forcefully regain control of Chechnya and touched off the current conflict.

Maskhadov, despite tensions with Basayev, opposed Russia’s offensive. Although he is believed to still hold some fighters’ loyalty, those who answer to Basayev are believed to be a far larger and more violent contingent.

Their method to achieve this utopian Islamic state? The mass murder of children.

The death toll after Friday’s bloody climax to the two-day siege included 155 school children, many of them held inside a gym by their captors, and confirmed the episode as the grimmest hostage-taking of modern times.

Officials confirmed for the first time media reports that the separatists had taken more than 1,000 people hostage when they stormed into the school on Wednesday.

A total of 26 militants, 10 of them Arabs according to Russian officials, had staged the hostage seizure, said Deputy Prosecutor-General Sergei Fridinsky. All had been killed.

“As a result of the terrorist acts, 322 people were killed, 155 of whom were children ... I think the death toll will rise, but probably not very much,” Fridinsky said.

Has anyone heard a a single Islamic leader, anywhere in the world, condemn this bloody savagery committed in the name of their religion?

The silence is deafening.

UPDATE at 9/4/04 7:32:21 am:

LGF reader Zakwhich points out an article at the Jerusalem Post with the headline: Siege prompts self-criticism in Arab media. But once again, the “self-criticism” on display is about a micron deep. The main objection expressed by (a few) Arab journalists is that the mass murder of children harms Islam’s image.

Ahmed Bahgat, an Egyptian Islamist, wrote in his column in Egypt’s leading pro-government newspaper, Al-Ahram, that hostage-takers in Russia as well as in Iraq are only harming Islam.

“If all the enemies of Islam united together and decided to harm it ... they wouldn’t have ruined and harmed its image as much as the sons of Islam have done by their stupidity, miscalculations, and misunderstanding of the nature of this age,” Bahgat wrote.

Sheik Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, the head of al-Azhar University in Egypt, who has previously issued calls for jihad against the West and praised suicide bombers, falls back on the other tactic frequently used to deny blame: the child killers were not really Muslims.

“What is the guilt of those children (in Russia)? Why should they be responsible for your conflict with the government?” Egypt’s top Muslim cleric, Grand Sheik Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, was quoted as saying during a Friday sermon in Banha, 50 kilometers (30 miles) north of Cairo.

“You are taking Islam as a cover and it is a deceptive cover; those who carry out the kidnappings are criminals, not Muslims,” Tantawi, who heads Al-Azhar University, the highest authority in the Sunni Islamic world, was quoted by Egypt’s Middle East News agency as saying.

Advertisement

194 comments

  • Comments are open and unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.
  • Obscene, abusive, silly, or annoying remarks may be deleted, but the fact that particular comments remain on the site in no way constitutes an endorsement of their views by Little Green Footballs.
  • Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, "First!"
  • Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.
  • Disagreement and debate are welcome, but insults and abuse are not, and may cause your account to be blocked.
  • REMEMBER: posting comments at LGF is a privilege, not a right. Abuse that privilege, and your account will be blocked.

Hide comments | Jump to bottom

1 LSD  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:12:16am

Please Mr. Putin,

Do the right thing.

Hunt them down.

Kill them.

2 Zakistan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:13:34am

i went on to islam chat on yahoo last night to find one muslim who would condemn the act. not one did. i realize this is only anectdotal evidence, but still ...

yeah, one would think so-called moderate muslims would want to distance themselves from this atrocity, but charles is right, the silence is defeaning.

3 csva  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:14:21am

So mass murder of children is ok if your goals are to implement muslim state. So according to mickey moore logic those arab mercs were actually freedom fighters too. SICK, SICK, F@#&ing SICK!!!

Is russia still doing business with iran?

4 hari seldon  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:15:12am

Just sickening...ROP strikes again

5 LSD  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:15:48am

The Islamists are trying to provoke an all out war between Islam and the rest of the world.

Islam embraces and makes heroes out of thugs and drug addicts.

Let's give them war.

6 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:15:52am

Morning all,

That is exactly the reason I don't spend one dime of my money in a muslim business, not to give to these murdering bastards so they can send it to their brothers to use for terrorism.

7 mommydoc  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:16:56am

May all islamists die horrible, painful deaths and burn in hell for all eternity. And may all their grandchildren be Jews.

8 pons  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:17:10am

And why should they?

As for our "western leaders" expect only good words. After all they are already blaming it on Rusia's human rights "abuses" in the region...

I think if nothing changes, we're lost. I remember something like this hapeniong here (israel), and the only thing we got as sympathy were good words and advice.

pons

9 Zakistan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:18:17am

well, there is some distancing.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]


Sep. 4, 2004 12:12
Siege prompts self-criticism in Arab media
By ASSOCIATED PRESS



Advertisement



CAIRO, Egypt

Muslims worldwide are the main perpetrators of terrorism, a humiliating and painful truth that must be acknowledged, a prominent Arab writer and television executive wrote Saturday as Middle East media and officials registered their horror at the bloody rebel siege of a Russian school.

Unusually forthright self-criticism followed the end of the hostage crisis, along with warnings such actions inflict more damage to the image of Islam than all its enemies combined could hope. Arab leaders and Muslim clerics denounced the school seizure as unjustifiable and expressed their sympathy.

Russian commandos stormed the school Friday in Beslan, Russia; it had been taken over apparently by rebels demanding independence for Chechnya. Death toll reports ran as high as 250, with twice as many wounded. Many of the casualties were children.

Images of terrified young survivors being carried from the scene aired repeatedly on Arab TV stations. Pictures of dead and wounded children ran on front pages of Arab newspapers Saturday. "Holy warriors" from the Middle East long have supported fellow Muslims fighting in Chechnya, and Russian officials said nine or 10 Arabs were among militants killed.

"Our terrorist sons are an end-product of our corrupted culture," Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television wrote in his daily column published in the pan-Arab Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper. It ran under the headline, "The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists are Muslims!"

Al-Rashed ran through a list of recent attacks by Islamic extremist groups - in Russia, Iraq, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen - many of which are influenced by the ideology of Osama Bin Laden, the Saudi-born leader of al-Qaida terror network.

"Most perpetrators of suicide operations in buses, schools and residential buildings around the world for the past 10 years have been Muslims," he wrote. Muslims will be unable to cleanse their image unless "we admit the scandalous facts," rather than offer condemnations or justifications.

"The picture is humiliating, painful and harsh for all of us," al-Rashed wrote.

Contributors to Islamic Web sites known for their extremist content had mixed reactions on the hostage crisis, with some praising the separatists as holy warriors. Others wrote that people should wait until the militants had been identified before implicating Arabs in the drama.

A statement in the name of The Islambouli Brigades posted Saturday on an Internet site known for its militant content, meanwhile, distanced the group from the school attack, though it did not criticize the Chechen rebels it indicated were behind it and called the hostage-takers demands "justified." There was no way to verify its authenticity.

"We in al-Islambouli Brigades, although we bless the efforts of our brothers in Chechnya in defending their honor and their religion, announce that we have no relationship with any cell of the cells that carried out the Ossetia operation, and that we didn't contribute with any munitions or money in this operation," the statement said.

"The dirty Russian government carries all the responsibility and the repercussions of this operation," it said.

Ahmed Bahgat, an Egyptian Islamist, wrote in his column in Egypt's leading pro-government newspaper, Al-Ahram, that hostage-takers in Russia as well as in Iraq are only harming Islam.

"If all the enemies of Islam united together and decided to harm it ... they wouldn't have ruined and harmed its image as much as the sons of Islam have done by their stupidity, miscalculations, and misunderstanding of the nature of this age," Bahgat wrote.

10 Zakistan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:19:58am

still, i am so sick and tired of the 'it make muslims look bad' argument. so, if killing russian children didn't make muslims look bad, but actually helped their sick cause, then it would be okay ...

what about morality. not public relations, but morality. they have no morals.

11 Tyster  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:20:25am

The Arab world has been so silent for so long on this and similar matters that I have come to believe that murder, barbarity, fascism and a total disregard for human life is the defacto approved standard of behavior in the muslim world. The arab world APPROVES of terrorist sewage.

I have said this before and I will say it again: The muslim world LOVES DEATH. They LOVE MURDER. They LOVE OPPRESSION and they understand one thing and one thing only: BARBARIC FORCE. The sooner we understand this the better.

It is only a matter of time before they force a much more serious situation on the world, one in which they will reap exactly what they have sown on a scale they may not surviuve.

12 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:21:00am

How many innocents have to die before the media stops it's left-wing denial of facts?

13 John B  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:22:04am

Al-Reuters (and the CBC) still refer to the hostage takers as "miliants". Just what do these savages have to do to be labelled a terrorist?

14 Zakistan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:22:12am

yeah, the media is still reticent about uttering the world 'islamic' in relation to this latest attack.

15 AG in Houston  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:22:35am

I second Mommydoc.

16 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:24:36am

1 LSD

Putin's going to take care of business He(Putin) said he had ordered the region's borders closed while officials search for everyone connected with the attack.

Somehow I've this feeling the borders won't be opening anytime soon.

17 Lyana  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:25:31am

HELL SPAWN, HELL SPAWN, HELL SPAWN!!! They are not savages, they are not animals, they are not scum, they are not sick, they are not deluded. They are completely given over to EVIL!!!

There are no tears this time - just a white-hot fury. I can't see straight, I'm shaking and can hardly type. I've been avoiding reading about this because I was afraid of my reaction. I was yelling at my radio yesterday everytime they said "militants", and fortunately, the kids weren't in the car, because lots of other descriptive words that I've never used before came out too...

My dad often said that to kill an ideology, you have to kill the people who hold it. Looks like we've got alot of killing to do.

This batch of hellspawn have gone to their reward, and may all others like them find their way soon. All who advocate/support/endorse this kind of evil, whether actively or passively, have forefeit their lives. Time to settle up.

G-d bless and protect our men and women in uniform working on the cleanup in Afghanistan and Iraq. G-d bless those in Russia who worked for the best in an impossible situation, and comfort those who have experienced such horror.

18 Zakistan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:26:18am

'"What is the guilt of those children (in Russia)? Why should they be responsible for your conflict with the government?" Egypt's top Muslim cleric, Grand Sheik Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, was quoted as saying during a Friday sermon in Banha, 50 kilometers (30 miles) north of Cairo.

"You are taking Islam as a cover and it is a deceptive cover; those who carry out the kidnappings are criminals, not Muslims," Tantawi, who heads Al-Azhar University, the highest authority in the Sunni Islamic world, was quoted by Egypt's Middle East News agency as saying.'


no wonder muslims are confused, you piece of shit mother fucker. when arabs blow up busses in israel, or kill children in ma'alot, it is islamically okay. so, they reason, it's also islamically okay to go and kill russians.

it's because you you you you shiekh tantawi. you and your nasty ilk.

fuck you

19 mommydoc  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:26:32am

Hey, is anyone else having trouble accessing Fox News?

20 Dave Ray  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:27:40am

[Link: uk.news.yahoo.com...]

posted this on another thread...but it's more relevant here. Russia has slammed EU demands as "blasphemous" try reading it without thinking of the word "bastards".

21 chris_l  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:27:48am

This is an event that clearly calls for a disporportional response. I hope Putin is up for the job.

22 Atlas Wannabe  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:28:38am

Thank you Charles. Please keep up the good work. Most still don't understand the worldwide threat that fascist Islam is but thanks to you I do and others are learning.

23 JWM  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:29:22am

Putin:
Bring the apocalypse down on these bastards.
Purge the earth of this plague.
NOW
JWM

24 Partisan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:29:31am

#9 Zakistan

The [bigoted word]s are still only worried about their image and damage to islam...

"more damage to the image of islam than all its enemies combined could hope"

"muslims will be unable to cleanse their image unless "

"Ahmed Bahgat, an Egyptian islamist, wrote in his column in Egypt's leading pro-government newspaper, Al-Ahram, that hostage-takers in Russia as well as in Iraq are only harming islam."

"If all the enemies of islam united together and decided to harm it ... they wouldn't have ruined and harmed its image as much as the sons of islam have done by their stupidity, miscalculations, and misunderstanding of the nature of this age," Bahgat wrote. "

25 militarybrat  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:30:30am

So, all on the same day, we had a suicide bombing in Moscow (barely covered beyond a mention), two suicide bus bombings in Israel (not covered beyond a mention), and the beginning of this hostage crisis, all perpetrated by Muslim terrorists.

And the world, most especially the mainstream media who delights in 'digging up a story' completely misses that fact? Hmmm...

On a better note - the synagogue I went to last night had a huge Israeli flag hung up and AIPAC flyers all over. Neat.

26 Ben F  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:31:03am

I listened to press reports of all of the world leaders who contacted KGB Chief Russian President Putin to convey their condolences.

I listen in vain for official statements from any country qualifying the condemnation of the kidnappings and murders by urging all parties to the Chechen dispute to end the cycle of violence.

Likewise the article quoted by #9 Zakistan:

Al-Rashed ran through a list of recent attacks by Islamic extremist groups – in Russia, Iraq, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen – many of which are influenced by the ideology of Osama Bin Laden, the Saudi-born leader of al-Qaida terror network.

Is something missing there? Damn them all [that is, all who utter the phrase "cycle of violence" in connection with terror attacks on Israelis] to Hell.

27 Atlas Wannabe  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:31:06am

#13 John B.

Attack muslims?

28 Teacake!  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:31:36am
Hey, is anyone else having trouble accessing Fox News?

No md... must be your local connection?

29 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:31:41am

The media are trying their best to be sensitive to the millitants. After all, even though there are 155 slaughtered innocent little children, the millitants haven't been proven guilty in a court of law.

The media are just doing their part of be
sensitive in John Fonda Kerry's sensitive
law enforcement struggle. Nothing to see here.

30 Lewis  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:32:18am

#6 'Nam Grunt

That is exactly the reason I don't spend one dime of my money in a muslim business, not to give to these murdering bastards so they can send it to their brothers to use for terrorism.

Tough call. I need to contemplate where I am on this issue.

Lemme tell ya a little story: on 9/12, a co-worker was relating how she was in the supermarket, saw a veiled woman in line at the checkout, and, not just her [the co-worker], but EVERYONE moved to a different line.

I was vaguely horrified by this. Oh the phobic bigotry, oh the stereotyping [insert drama-queen sob here] ...

Well, now after almost 3 years of "mainstream" Muslim groups' excuses (and almost 1 year of LGF International Zionist Conspiracy indoctrination), I'm starting to think there might be merit in shunning and economic boycott.

I can avoid the Muslim grocery stores and pizza joints with ease. But my dentist's name is "Khan." Dare I inquire as to his religion? Do I really want to change dentists?

31 TalkinKamel  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:33:40am

Moloch, true god of the Jihadis, sure does love child sacrifices, doesn't he?

I knew there would be an attempt to shift the blame to the Russian commandos storming the school (what else could they do?) rather than blaming those truly responsible---the terrorists who actually took over the school.

Details, such as the fact that the terrorists weren't letting food or water in (meaning that the Russians couldn't just sit around wasting endless time, "negotiating" since kids would soon by dying from dehydration) will be shuttled aside.

There's a lot to criticize Russia for---but it wasn't until it started fighting Islamofacists that the media actually began criticizing them (when they least deserve it), and worrying about the "rights" of the nations they've conquered. (Did they worry about Armenia? Kazhakstan? Georgia? And remember Duranty, ignoring the vast starvation under Stalin?)

Islam is the new mascot of the L3's. They will do anything to defend it.

32 MJ  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:35:11am

#13 JohnB asked, "Al-Reuters (and the CBC) still refer to the hostage takers as "miliants". Just what do these savages have to do to be labelled a terrorist? "

For Reuters, the CBC, ( and BBC, NYT, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, Boston Globe, ABC News, etc..) , "terrorists" can only be born in America or Israel and must, by definition, be either Christian or Jewish. There are no Muslim Terrorists.

33 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:36:18am

I don't think Putin is up for revenge, after watching the total clusterf*ck of the russian army before they stormed the school, it seemed to me that there was very little leadership going on, and the soldiers all seemed confused. If russia plans on fighting terrorism, then I might suggest that they train their armed forces better and PAY them for lords sake...just sayin.

34 insane_kufr  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:36:31am

Islam is a death cult. Mohammed was deceived by Satan and has indoctrinated billions of souls into a state of mind numbed psychopathy.
ALLAH = SATAN
When the islamofascists strike against China there will be a terrible reckoning.

NUKE MECCA NOW!!!

35 Partisan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:37:46am

#30 Lewis.

muslim == Nazi

Would you have felt bad if the woman in line had been dressed up in a Gestapo uniform?

Change dentists and the dentist will get the clue that he can become an x-muslim or an x-American.

His choice.

36 TS  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:38:04am

Has anyone heard a a single Islamic leader, anywhere in the world, condemn this bloody savagery committed in the name of their religion?

No, but they sure were condemning taking hostage dhimmi French journalists.

I think the contrast of every major Islamic organization condemning the taking of French citizens as hostages and demanding their release, while at the same time not saying a fricken word about hundreds of school children taken hostage, tells us everything we need to know about Islam.

37 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:38:20am

And according to the Jm Post:

On Friday, the Dutch Foreign Minister Bernard Bot demanded – in the name of the presidency of the EU – that Russian authorities explain the high toll of the terror attack.

That is the definition of chutzpah.

The article goes on to say:

The Russian Foreign Ministry on Saturday reacted with outrage and described the request as "blasphemous".
38 militarybrat  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:38:43am

32 MJ

And if they can't find Jewish or Christian groups that can qualify as "terrorist", they will so label a woman who shoots the "militant" trying to break into her house and murder her family.

39 Lyana  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:38:50am

#24 Partisan

miscalculations

That any society would put up with their citizens being massacred?!? But then again, I guess Spain didn't exactly disabuse them of that notion...

and misunderstanding of the nature of this age

And in what age would they think this behaviour was remotely appropriate?!? Do we need further proof that they're still thinking 7th century?

And this is supposed to be a moderate voice of Islam!

40 kamperken  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:39:14am

And within a year, they will have nuclear weapons.

41 Andrew B.  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:40:02am
42 applesweet  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:41:03am

The socalled mainstream moslems are distancing themselves from this latest atrocity. Wonder why? Maybe because theyrealize the line has finally been crossed, the bridge has been burnt down and there is no going back.
Maybe they have belatedly realized they've shown their hand too soon. Well it's too late for taqqiyah and kitman.
Now they are beginning to feel the stirrings of fear, the real deal.
Because very possibly and very soon, they are next.

Putin should start building a fence that encompasses Chechnya. No one in and no one out. Make it like a timecapsule. Wait about a hundred years, and then check out the layout. See who survived.

43 rang1995  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:41:55am

Ny times etc calls them rebels, etc none of the mainstream press calls them for what they are

MUSLIMS

44 Andrew B.  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:42:59am

Silence is a form of aiding and abetting terrorism...

Indifference only emboldens these freaks...

Andrew B.

45 Sean II  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:43:16am

Thank God for FOX, they were calling them terrorists since day one.

46 Connecticut Yankee  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:45:02am

OT, but Charles may want to start a Mark Steyn thread later on:

Latest from Steyn on the midnight ride of JFK: "Kerry's showing he just can't take the heat"

[Link: www.suntimes.com...]

47 aaron  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:45:04am

Quote:

"Fathers will bury their children, and after 40 days (the Orthodox Christian mourning period) ... they will take up weapons and seek revenge," said Alan Kargiyev, a 20-year-old university student in the regional capital Vladikavkaz

source: [Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

48 Angry NPR reporter  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:45:25am

Some of the media are starting to mention in passing that some of the kidnappers at the school were Arabs, rather than Chechens. Has anyone seen any official reports to this effect?

49 Angry NPR reporter  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:46:31am

Sorry... I just saw the mention of this in the post above.

50 mrsoc  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:46:40am

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

Forgive me if this has already been posted but it is so important to hear someone say it out loud. These animals are a disgrace to humanity. There is no such thing as a religion that allows the murder of children. It is a sick death cult and if the moderate [bigoted word] exists have him say hello to the fucking easter bunny for me.
God, if you are in this weekend, please kill all the muslims before they kill us.

51 Sol Roth  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:46:59am

Napalm the swarms.

52 Elcid  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:47:15am
The silence is deafening.

It sure as hell is, where oh where is the American leftist voice, in condeming?

My mistake, it's fine and dandy to kill men, women and CHILDREN, as long as it's sociopathic, lying, sniveling, murdering, leftist son-of-a-bitch doing the killing.

Oh A democrat President is ok too...

Filthy bastards...Mr. Putin, join us to rid this world of these people.

53 Partisan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:47:17am

#41 Andrew..

Read more carefully, they are upset that these attacks will 'hurt islams image'

muslims continue to lie in order to advance jihad.

54 Ken Davidson  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:47:34am

Well, there was this:

Chechen Muslim leader condemns hostage takers

That was Sept. 2, before the catastrophic conclusion. But I think you're right that Muslim organizations that have formed with the supposed purpose of explaining Islam to those who may not know much about it should be expected to stand up and condemn terrorism. And I would even forgive them the fiction that such brutality has no part in Islam if they would just repeatedly disavow jihad.

55 militarybrat  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:48:22am

after reading the JPost article, I have a few questions. Anyone with Russian experience feel free to step in, as I'm going on my Mother in Law's tendencies (although she pretty much seems to be a microchasm of Russian behavior, thought, and political schizophrenia).

1) Why was the implicated blame on Russia for the high death toll? I thought it would be on, well, the TERRORISTS.

I wasn't too impressed with their handling of the seige, either, but I also don't know enough facts, such as who shot first, and what triggered the raid that wasn't supposed to happen.

I just can't see that there is any easy solution to a situation where children are being horribly murdered and abused.

And now that someone else has mentioned it - yeah, why DIDN'T Putin request assistance from Israel? That does seem kind of dumb.

I've always wondered why Russia wasn't full steam behind the WoT. Hoping we'll do their dirty work for them? Funny, they don't seem to mind doing dirty work...

56 LSD  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:48:36am

# 33 Nam Grunt


Russian Security had no choice. The Islamist scum females dropped the stick on their bombs.

The children began running.

The scum Islamists shot them.

Russian security had to move in right then and there.


All I can think of is "Death to Islam."

57 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:50:26am

#33 nam grunt

IMO, Putin is very much up for revenge, but I agree that his military forces are not. He has a lot of work to do.

58 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:50:50am

#46 LOLOLOL!

''I have five words for Americans,'' he thundered. ''This is your wake up call!''

Is that five words? Or is it six?

59 Connecticut Yankee  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:52:14am

#48 Angry

Stan over at Logic & Sanity has kept translating news releases from official Russian sources. Here is the link:

[Link: www.logicandsanity.com...]

Hope this helps.

60 Partisan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:53:00am

#54 Ken Davidson

jihad is central to their belief, to disavow jihad would be to contradict the koran. The koran is infallible and the direct word of allah. The koran can not be interpreted or revised.

islam will die well before it reforms.

61 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:53:01am

Steyn just slays me.

So we have one candidate running on a platform of ambitious reforms for an ''ownership society'' at home and a pledge to hunt down America's enemies abroad. And we have another candidate running on the platform that no one has the right to say anything mean about him.
62 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:54:17am

The forever outward pointing finger of islam “What is the guilt of those children (in Russia)?

The sick M'fin bastards. Have they ever owned up any of the atrocities they're committed in the name of their pagan devils...(urinate upon them) Allah and Mo?

63 TalkinKamel  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:54:46am

#37 transient:

Well, well, Bernard Bot wants the RUSSIANS to explain what happened! I'm glad Putin essentially told him, and the EU, to shove it!

Remember: in the event of local disasters, you shouldn't rely on what 9/11 tells you (they'll just tell you to say put, and remain calm), and, with a horror such as the Beslan school take over, you can't rely on any "International law, committees, what-have-you to come to the rescue! What good was the European Union in this crisis? How did the UN help the anguished Russian parents? Did the International Court send any police in, to arrest the terrorists? Oh, Kofi Anan did condemn the terrorists, as I recall. That helped a lot.

If there's one thing this horrible affair should show us---international law and "world opinion", the EU and the UN, will be utterly useless in the event that (G0d forbid) something like this happens again.

They'll politely condemn it, while it's going on, and then, afterwards, when you're mopping up the mess, they'll condemn YOU for whatever actions you had to take!

64 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:55:23am

LSD,

I'm not condemning the russian security, of course that was the correct thing to do, what I am saying is I watced it and there was no leadership the troops took it upon themselves it seemed to me, to storm the building after the explosion. I mean look at our troops in Najaf, they were calculated and slowly were moving on the mosque and surrounding it for the kill, because of good training and leadership, it just seemed like chaos once the russians stormed the building.

65 Protagonist  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:55:39am

This just in:

"It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones"

Luke 17:2

66 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:55:42am

They just reported on Fox News that they were murdered execution style, and long before the confrontation with the Russian police began.

Car Bomb Kills at Least 20 at Iraq Academy

Are we winning yet?

67 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:56:07am

#48/49 NPR reporter

So, what are the chances these days of getting a more reasonable viewpoint regarding terrorism out of NPR?

68 andrew2  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:56:47am

I am too depressed today to even read the news.

This is the most savage act of pure evil against God and man...to kill children in the name of the ARAB RELIGION, ISLAM.

ARABS created ISLAM and ISLAM in its modern day mode of savagery is merely the history books come alive. When you see those old paintings of the battle of Tours A.D. 732, or Vienna, or read of the Crusader reaction to 500 years of incursions into CHRISTIAN territory, you view it in the abstract. You view it through the detached lens of dead history.

But you are living through history repeating itself. Today you have a living, breathing example of ISLAM in its full glory brought to you live in living Technicolor. You are witnessing what 1400 years of ARAB ISLAM has offered to humanity. Death, death and death.

Worse will come in the form of the ISLAMIC BOMB.

69 T. Jefferson  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:57:11am

I don’t believe the “main stream media” will ever change its ways without some sort of outside force working on it. My question, when will enough Americans wake up and see what the media is doing and stop supporting and paying for this “hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil” brand of journalism?

70 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:58:25am

'Nam Grunt, I read that they did not actually intend to storm the building but did so after they heard an explosion so you're probably right.

71 LSD  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:58:38am

#64 Nam Grunt

You are right.

Russia has woefully dismal Special Forces.

Untrained, Low-tech.

They need to amp up their spec forces.

72 gymnast  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:59:37am

Has cair made a statement? Or are the Al Jubair boys waiting for Ryadh to approve the draft? Has any more been said anywhere of the African American amongs the terrorists or was that a mistranslation in the Russian reports? Also what are the latest casulty totals? Drudge and TV reporting double the above totals.

73 kaffirgal  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:00:11am

The MSM is extreemly irresponsible in not reporting on the true nature of these child killers. This infernal PC media culture (even FOX News has caught the virus) has crossed the line from eliding the truth to active concealment. That is VERY dangerous, and will probably take another US cataclysm on the order of 9/11 to reverse.

74 Elias Israel  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:00:14am

Re: #35 "muslim == Nazi"


Partisan, I really have to object to that kind of language.

Not only is it offensive, it's just not helping.

I'll grant that it is too, too often very hard to find Islam's leaders publicly denouncing the works of the jihadis.

But prejudging all muslims to be guilty of criminality only gives the innocent among that group the feeling that they may as well be our enemies, if they've already been judged to be so.

It's clear that Islam needs a reformation. It's our sad lot that it has to happen during our time on Earth.

But we can't aid that reformation by behaving like genocidal freaks.

Punish the guilty, destroy authoritarian "Islamic states", and free the innocent to stand by us.

That is the path to victory.

Faster, Please.

75 Colt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:01:11am

#54 Ken Davidson

IIRC, the Chechen Mufti is pro-Israel.

Seriously.

77 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:05:54am

I have a dream that msm will vanish, and there will be college and professional football 24/7 in their place, and if someone wants to know what is really going on in the world, they will log on to LGF...sigh, just a dream.

78 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:06:07am

66 zulubaby

The U.S. is winning but Iraqi's are to busy being murdered by their islamic brothers, no one notices.

79 Partisan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:07:42am

#74 Elias Israel

Re: #35 "muslim == Nazi"

"Partisan, I really have to object to that kind of language. Not only is it offensive, it's just not helping."

Really? Weren't all Germans Nazi's while Hitler was in power? Didn't the US just kill the really bad ones and then reeducate the rest? What difference is there between jihadist and Nazi's?

"But prejudging all muslims to be guilty of criminality only gives the innocent among that group the feeling that they may as well be our enemies, if they've already been judged to be so."

Then the innocent among the group can choose to stand with child killers or they can leave the group. Their choice.

" But we can't aid that reformation by behaving like genocidal freaks."

Exactly WHO has behaved like genocidal freaks this week?

80 Sarah D.  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:07:50am

Islam will have to be eradicated if there is to be any change in the Middle East...

according to these folks.

It is our belief that Islamic terrorism will not be eliminated unless and until the ideology behind it is not exposed and eradicated. This is what we intend to do.
81 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:08:22am

#78,

We are slowly but methodically destroying Fallujah, soon their will not be any buildings left then where do they hide.

82 aaron  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:09:00am

It will be interesting to see how many of these Arabs are citizens of the EU.

83 Geepers  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:09:46am

Elias Israel (#74),

Well said.

84 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:09:57am

#55 militarybrat

I thought it would be on, well, the TERRORISTS.

You would think.

As some of the above posts have indicated, Russia's track record with incidents of this nature (notably, the assault on the theater where Chechen terrorists were holding hostages) is not good. Russia's forces are not as well trained and disciplined as they should be, not comparable to the US or Israel. The news media has indicated that official Russian commando forces were joined by anyone in the area with a gun. They did not cordon off the area. They do not have the sophisticated technology that Western nations routinely use. I'm sure someone knowledgeable could come up with a lot more examples.

Even if the forces had been the best trained, it is hard to see a good outcome given the situation. I think even the US or Israel would be hard-pressed to have come up with an assault plan on short notice that would have worked with a minimum of casualties. ('tho I wouldn't be surprised if Israeli special ops train for this type of thing on contingency.)

Nations are notably reluctant to take Israel's advice, whether from pride or condescension, I don't know.

85 Beagle  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:10:26am

Al-Guardian is just as bad, so bad it's in Arab News Children mentioned, followed by a long diatribe rationalizing the act.

86 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:11:39am

#77 nam grunt

...there will be college and professional football 24/7 in their place...

Your dream. My nightmare!

87 insane_kufr  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:13:43am
If all the enemies of Islam united together and decided to harm it ...

THEY COULD INCINERATE EVERY LAST MUSLIM AND RENDER THEIR LAND UNINHABITABLE

Really now, just who do these fucksticks imagine they are dealing with...

WE HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS - THAT ACTUALLY WORK!!

If it gets bad enough...Mecca go BOOM!!!

88 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:15:19am

transient,

SMILES!! and touche.

89 LSD  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:15:43am

I believe the arabs involved were just there to fight and die for Islam. Cold killers.

The Chechen-Ingush Muslims have had 1 out of 10 killed by Russians in the past 15 years.

Ossetians killed alot of Chechens-Ingush in the 90's - so there is a blood fued.

This is not the U.S.'s war...yet. Though Putin will try to drag us in by saying this is the work of Al Qaeda.

Basayev and chechen Islamists were doing this stuff long before Al Qaeda was on the scene.

The only thing keeping the Islamists from doing this in America? We have kick-ass hightech hostage-rescue teams.

How long do we have though?

Enough is enough.

90 amfex  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:16:21am

#74

All muslims are guilty if they don't denounce the terror and havoc they have imposed on the planet. Standing by and saying nothing is just as bad. Let's remember the Holocaust! You could say that they were people that helped save jews, but what about those that stood around and did nothing to fight back. In fact, my family would like the buildings back they owned in Poland but were stolen by Poles when they shoved my relatives into rail cars.

I am sick of apologists for the muslim faith. I couldn't give a crap if they invented numbers or gave us falafel because now all they contribute is evil.

There is no such thing as relativism, evil is evil. Killing children is evil. Islam is evil.

91 Rufus Lee King  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:19:11am

#87

And then what?

The world will never know peace in our lifetime until every avowed adherant of the Koran's conspiracy of genocide is incarcerated.

92 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:20:55am

LSD,

I disagree with you on the point that this is not the U.S.'s war, it most certainly is, hell that's why they call it the wot, WWIV, and Russia just got their wake up call, now how they deal with it is another story, I hope they nuke Iran and Mecca in the same afternoon, just give our troops warning so we can get the hell to safety!

93 foreign devil  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:22:32am

I sense Iran's hand in what is happening in Chechnya. I believe Iran has sent Hezb'Allah fighters in to train the local Muslims and the warlord's people so you have Iran vying for power with the warlord and where the warlord kept his attacks localized, Iran will stir the wider Muslim population through foreign fighters who will influence the local imams to do it their way (Iran's way). If the local imams are scared into starting a 'race war' to make the Russian's look bad in the world's eye-view, all the while Iran is really trying to promote Muslim ascendancy, hiding behind the mask of a race or ethnic war between the Russians and Chechnyans. Somewhat the way Iran has been the engine behind the war with Israel between the Israelis and the Palestinians. With Iran in the shadowy background paying fighters trained in Tehran and Lebanon, to incite trouble in the 'refugee camps' and elsewhere and blame it on the IDF.

It's a tactic that Iran uses. They set up a straw problem -- a local ethnic fight -- fuel it and under cover of assisting the 'locals' to defend themselves, take over everything! Classic divide and conquer!

94 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:26:21am

foreign devil,

Damn right Iran is behind this!, They better enjoy their 'electricty' they are making because soon they will be glass!

95 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:28:37am

LSD;

Even before the US was attacked at Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, FDR recognized the threat of international fascism, which aspired to dominate the world under its heinous ideology.

We are now fighting an international war on Islamofascism. Whatever the original dispute between Russia and Chechnya, the Chechens have received training and support from al-Qaeda, and Chechen terrorism is a local manifestation of an international conflict.

The Russians could just as easily say, "What did 9/11 have to do with us? Why should we cooperate with American antiterror efforts?" Islamic terrorism affects us all, no matter where it takes place.

96 Ken Davidson  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:32:13am

#60 Partisan:

jihad is central to their belief, to disavow jihad would be to contradict the koran.

Christianity has made the transition from a belief that the Bible is the literal word of God to the belief that it is an interpretation of that word as best fallible humans could record it. You're right about the centrality of jihad in Islam. As Ibn Warraq has written, Islam is also totalitarian by its very nature. Can it change, as Christianity did? I think so, now that so many have awakened to its destructiveness as it exists now and are fighting back.

97 LSD  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:37:48am

#92 & #95

I couldn't agree more.

Just preparing for the media and how they will spin it.

The surge is coming.

An Islamist in Chechnya is the same as an Islamist in Michigan.

There can be no doubt.

98 Meryl Yourish  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:39:34am

Zulubaby, that article is rather deceptive. I did a bit of research on the clerics that were quoted, and discovered they aren't nearly as "moderate" as the AP claims they are.

99 Partisan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:40:36am

#96 Ken Davidson

"Can it change, as Christianity did? I think so "

I hope so, I don't think so. If anything can force a change it will be the spread of freedom. Freedom of information. Freedom to question, freedom to become an x-muslim.

100 Colt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:42:21am

#93 foreign devil

Iran would be stupid to piss off Putin - they need Russia for their nuclear program.

101 lizard#9  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:42:37am

My lord, its hard to image a crime more brutal than this. Scores of children machined gun down while fleeing for their lives.

Take 5 seconds and go over that mental image in your minds. Damn savages! It's no wonder some of them were beat to death.

102 Elias Israel  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:48:53am

Re: #79: Partisan says:

Really? Weren't all Germans Nazi's while Hitler was in power? Didn't the US just kill the really bad ones and then reeducate the rest? What difference is there between jihadist and Nazi's?

Uh, no, not all Germans were Nazis. Too many, truly, but not all. Some even resisted the Nazis.

And we did not have a policy of wiping out all Germans, or all Japanese, or all Italians. Our WWII war aim was to liberate Europe and the Pacific from the Nazi, Fascist, and Imperial regimes.

Likewise, our war aim now should be to liberate the middle east from Jihadist, Islamist (not Islamic) authoritarian regimes. That is what will end the terrorism threat.

An unspeakable tragedy like the one that Russia has just suffered at the hands of these jihadi animals invariably brings out the "Nuke Mecca" crowd that gives LGF a bad name.

But the path of wisdom, and the path to victory require us to refrain from adopting the tactics of our enemies.

They are the ones who make no distinction between combatants and civilians. We note and respect that difference.

They are the ones who randomly butcher the innocent. We aim our force at the guilty, and we feel sorrow for the innocent who inevitably suffer while we fight to defend ourselves.

They are the ones who preach genocide. We fight for peace.

The very heart of bigotry is the belief that a person's worth is defined by the racial, spiritual, or ideological groupings they supposedly belong to.

The very heart of justice is the belief that each person should be judged on their own actions alone.

They are the bigots; we must always stand for justice.

In measures of evil, there is little gap between jihadis of today and the Nazis of old.

But if we wish the jihadis to be rejected by the religion of Islam that they claim to be acting for, then we have to give innocent muslims every reason and every chance to stand for the good and renounce the jihadis.

For our military and diplomatic solutions to be effective, we must concentrate our use of force against the evildoers, and make utmost attempts to protect the innocent.

Faster, Please.

103 SwampWoman  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:54:34am

#101 lizard #9

My lord, its hard to image a crime more brutal than this. Scores of children machined gun down while fleeing for their lives.

Take 5 seconds and go over that mental image in your minds. Damn savages! It's no wonder some of them were beat to death.

I have to admit that it is very difficult for me to imagine this, when I think that the first instinct for any adult should be to throw themselves between the children and anything harmful so as to shelter the children.

104 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:59:25am

Amazing post, Meryl. Unbelievable how everything is a Zionist plot. Don't you with we were really that powerful? I have no hope for Islam, none at all, and I want the mask to slip off completely so that the whole world sees it for what it is. The media is doing a superb job of keeping people ignorant. They are not "just like us", I don't care what anyone says.

105 IowaInfidel  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:04:24am

#37 transient 9/4/2004 07:38AM PST

And according to the Jm Post:


On Friday, the Dutch Foreign Minister Bernard Bot demanded – in the name of the presidency of the EU – that Russian authorities explain the high toll of the terror attack.

---
That's too easy to answer. The high death toll is because ARMED MUSLIMS TOOK OVER A SCHOOL AND KILLED THEM.

Dumb f*cking EU. Get a clue.

106 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:06:03am

Elias,

I speak as a down in mud walking through the jungle Grunt, I was saying that the Russians handle their military much different than we do, and if pissed off enough they WILL use Tactical Nuclear Weapons, against the ME, and through all of your education, which I respect, whole heartedly, and again I only speak as an Infantry Soldier, and only know what I was trained to do, I believe that mass destruction of part of Islam might be the only answer to show these animals that the west means to eradicate them. Do you want some of them taking over the school of your children, and shooting them in the back? I don't!!!, So let's kill them faster and faster!!!

107 The Bruce  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:06:21am

As bad as the US and Western press is in deflecting outrage against the Islamofascists has been the tepid response by the US Government at all levels. I have not heard a single US politician say one fucking word in anger in regards to this abomindation. Not one.

The Stateless Department spokesman was as calm in tone and manner as if he were reporting on the morning traffic jams. The president spoke in his usual low-keyed voice and used not a single word of moral fury.

Everyone is hiding from the butchery by Islamofascists taking place outside our borders because to acknowledge it would mean mobilization for war. It's that simple.

Democracies just won't fight until their existence is at stake. And when they do fight--the US in Afghanistan and Iraq--they don't fight to win but not to lose.

Our cowardice is going to cost us dearly in blood, at home and abroad.

108 Partisan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:08:35am

#102 Elias Israel

Nice piece of writing and I believe we are in violent agreement with a few differences.

"In measures of evil, there is little gap between jihadis of today and the Nazis of old."

I call all muslim's Nazi's and dare them to prove me wrong. Muslims can prove their worth by rejecting thoughts and deeds that lead to murdering children.

"then we have to give innocent muslims every reason and every chance to stand for the good and renounce the jihadis."

NO I DON'T have do to anything for innocent muslims. They can well and truly do it for themselves.

"For our military and diplomatic solutions to be effective, we must concentrate our use of force against the evildoers, and make utmost attempts to protect the innocent."

Which is exactly what we (US) are doing, it is the evildoers that are killing innocents all over the planet and I will not spend one more second trying to sort the good muslims from the bad muslims.

109 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:09:29am

Here I am, the nuke-Mecca crowd who gives LGF a bad name.

The bad name of LGF in the LLL blogs and media is due to the fact that LGF deconstructs the infinite lies of the left friend of terrorists. (PERIOD)

As for waging a real war against the muslim invaders, we may have different opinions but in thirty years I will probably NOT be here to enjoy the French life that will dominate the US of AMERICA, so if all the sweeties who want to make love not war enjoy living their lives under muslim control I have no problem with that, I will be gone by then.

110 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:16:56am

Elias,

Explosion at L.A. International Airport!! There you go!!!

111 lizard#9  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:18:22am

#102

Good post! Most people forget that most Muslims are just like everyone else and are just trying to get by in their lives. NUKE MECCA might be emotionally gratifying to some, but we would kill far more innocents than the terrorists have ever killed. A far more satisfying revenge against the Jihadists would be to increase aid to Israel by $1 million dollars every time a Jihadist terrorist attack was committed.

112 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:19:38am

Elias Israel (#102)

In measures of evil, there is little gap between jihadis of today and the Nazis of old.

The Islamists are less organized. But they're learning ...

113 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:22:21am

lizard#9 (#111)

Most people forget that most Muslims are just like everyone else ...

Look back at the past week, at the horrific violence around the world. Do you know anyone who would be capable of such cruelty? They are not just like us but to clarify, I'm talking about the Arabs in particular.

114 Elias Israel  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:23:12am

Re: #106 'Nam Grunt says:

I speak as a down in mud walking through the jungle Grunt, I was saying that the Russians handle their military much different than we do, and if pissed off enough they WILL use Tactical Nuclear Weapons, against the ME, and through all of your education, which I respect, whole heartedly, and again I only speak as an Infantry Soldier, and only know what I was trained to do, I believe that mass destruction of part of Islam might be the only answer to show these animals that the west means to eradicate them. Do you want some of them taking over the school of your children, and shooting them in the back? I don't!!!, So let's kill them faster and faster!!!

First of all, I know it often sounds trite these days to say so (especially during a political season), but I genuinely respect the service you've given to our country. Thank you.

Second, you might indeed be right. I won't discount the notion that we might have to face an astounding number of deaths before this fight is done, or the notion that we might have to kill millions to win it.

I regard those options with profound horror. I do not think we would shrink from them if we felt we had no choice, but I think we should do all we can to avoid that outcome.

Just like we did in the Cold War. It's clear now that we could have beaten the Soviets in a war on the continent of Europe.

But I think that we're all glad that President Reagan found a way to get the Soviets to concede without open war.

I think President Bush is trying his best to avoid world war as well.

As for the Russians and how they handle their military, I certainly agree that they lack the expertise, finesse, equipment, or espirit de corps that we have. It's no surprise that they get used as a blunt instrument.

115 jhs  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:24:07am

from Reuters:
But Putin, who has repeatedly rejected any notion of talks with separatists, made no direct reference to the region in his 10-minute address.

Are there any translated transcripts of Putins 10 minute adress available anywhere on the net?
It would be interesting to read exactly what he said instead of getting the watered down version from the usual left wing msm sourses.

116 RickZ  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:27:45am

# 102 Elias Israel:

Likewise, our war aim now should be to liberate the middle east from Jihadist, Islamist (not Islamic) authoritarian regimes.

But those Jihadist, Islamic totalitarian regimes are firmly based and grounded on Islamic principles. The Islamic ideology IS the enemy we face, must confront, and finally defeat.

117 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:29:12am

L.A. Airport Shut Down on Security Concern

Los Angeles International Airport was shut down early Saturday because of a possible security breach and a separate incident at an international terminal security screening station, an airport spokesman said.

No information was immediately available on the incident at Tom Bradley International Terminal, airport spokesman Harold Johnson said.

Officials also did not explain the possible security breach that shut down terminals 6, 7 and 8. The terminals are connected.

Flights were not being allowed to depart, but inbound flights were being allowed to land, said Paul Turk, spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration. Passengers were not taken off the planes.

Traffic was being diverted from the airport.

Does anybody know more about this? All that's being covered is the bloody hurricane!

118 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:32:36am

Elias,

I do respect your opinion, as I do respect you, however, we as a Leader Of the World do not have time to sit on the bench nor try to appease these animals, the time has come like it or not, to get with the program and start killing them in large doses, that's what they understand.

119 TalkinKamel  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:36:14am

#117 Zulubaby:

No, I haven't heard a thing!

Does anybody know which airlines have ticket counters, and take off and land from Terminals 6, 7 and 8 at LAX?
(That might shed a little light on it.)

120 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:37:48am

#119:

International flights.

121 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:41:28am

TalkinKamel, the hurricane is all they can think about so it's hard to find any news. I do know that El Al is in the Tom Bradley terminal, maybe all international counters. Not sure, still checking around ...

LGFers are discussing it on this thread.

122 Ms. Andi  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:47:05am

Until there are massive demonstrations, in the millions, in the streets by these mysterious "Moderate Muslims" calling for an unconditional end to Muslim terror, I will have no faith in them. Of course, there are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

If the ummah can feel the pain (alleged) of their Islamic bretheren, surely the ummah can condone and fight againsts the savagery of their bretheren. Until then, fuck um.

123 The Bruce  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:50:54am

'Nam Grunt:

the time has come like it or not, to get with the program and start killing them in large doses

We've been fighting, half-assed, for three years, and we still are politically incapable of naming our enemy, so I don't think that W will start killing the enemy in large doses.

W has chosen not to risk anything beyond the most superficial. He has not even done anything to eliminate the sedition of the mass media in three years.

Frankly, the American public is more pathetic than we would like to acknowledge. How else explain the continuing silence of the entire US political class on the global threat of Islamic Fascism?

It's now obvious that we won't do anything serious until the country suffers massive casualties. In the meantime, we are letting the Islamic Fascists get the Bomb.

124 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:57:03am

Bruce,

In a way I agree with you, but sad as it is our President is a bit busy now trying to get re-elected. I promise when he does all hell is going to break loose, against these animals, I know I've been pro military, that's what I am, but I promise Texas will not be taken over by muslims, until they kill us all, what I'm saying we are armed and pissed, and we are willing to defend our state and our Country.

125 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:57:18am

102
I have to agree with Elias. I am disturbed by the talk of genocide (or maybe "ummah-cide") as the solution for Islam. This is not who we are.

I do think Islam can change from a fundamentalist, literalist religion encouraging murder to a more tolerant, tolerable religion (along the lines of #96,99). Unfortunately I believe that, like the Reformation, it will take hundreds of years, and we dare not be passive in the meantime, or the Muslim fanatics will only gain strength.

126 FrankNH  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 7:59:16am

Zell is on CSpan right now.
A rebroadcast of his speech.

127 RickZ  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 8:09:13am

# 125 transient:

Unfortunately I believe that, like the Reformation, it will take hundreds of years, and we dare not be passive in the meantime, or the Muslim fanatics will only gain strength.

The West will not suffer hundreds of years of waiting when atrocities like the North Ossetia school massacre continue to occur with accelerating frequency.

128 itellu3times  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 8:13:14am

The terrorists are Muslim.

Their families and friends who know all about them and support them and educate them are Muslim - egregiously so, in a way few Americans can imagine.

Generally everyone in their neighborhoods are aware of their inclinations, and often are supportive, even if only in fear of being shot if they are not.

Until the wider Islamic societies are willing to go to great lengths and take risks and take losses in order to shut down the creation of these savagely insane jihadis, it will continue. Either Islam can have a great moral awakening all on its own, or it invites a military response on the order of genocide. We all know this, us and them, both.

But we have to realize, the system of training the insane, the unneeded, the wild, as jihadis has served Islam for a thousand years, and probably pre-Islamic cultures for thousands more. They will need to realize that it no longer works. The Intifada against Israel and its grotesque failure, is one such lesson, but such things take years and generations to learn.

Frankly, my reading of the story of Islam and the associated Arab cultures is that they pretty much expect, at some point, to lose 50% or more of their populations in battle, and simply plan, with a grand fatalism, to ride it out, win or lose.

Gonna be an interesting century.

129 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 8:14:43am

transient,

Unfortunately, this a different world now, and force is the only way to put these animals down in order to protect life as we know it, and until the American people start realizing that we are in a heap of trouble, it's people like me that recognize the danger that we are in (Veterans past and present), have a conversation with a Veteran and ask his opinion about islamists, it won't be pretty I'm afraid as to his opinions, of what America MUST DO!!!

130 IowaInfidel  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 8:16:00am

O, let us all bow down to the mighty, noble, allah-guided mohammedan islamist warriors. They have shown us their strength and righteousness as they so easily attacked one of Russia's most heavily unguarded institutions - a public school. Who can resist such might? Who no longer sees the awe-inspiring rightness of their cause?

/sarc, of course

Sorry, I'm in an extremely BAD anti-islamic mood right now. How much longer before radical non-muslims start blowing up mosques? I'm afraid radicalism on one side will breed radicalism on the other.

Something must change, and soon.

131 FrankNH  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 8:21:07am

OT
Anyone who might be pessimistic that the Time poll that has President Bush up 11 points over Kerry, should take a look at these polls;
[Link: home.businesswire.com...]

"The Democrats are eviscerated," says Jay H. Leve, Editor of SurveyUSA. "Even in the most solidly Democratic corners of this country, a majority of adults suddenly believe that George W. Bush will win in November."
132 Momzilla  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 8:24:57am

I think that a reformation in Islam is possible, but not without continuing outside pressure. For example, consider the Mormons. They certainly have a violent and antisocial history; Mountain Meadows is just one example. It took isolation and strong response from the federal government to wake up their leadership to the fact that they needed to moderate or die out altogether. Today, while I disagree strenuously with their religion, it can't be denied that today their members generally are a very upstanding and moral group of people that very few would object to having as neighbors.

133 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 8:29:40am

#129 Nam Grunt:

I respect your service, and those of others who have and continue to defend this country. I totally support the Bush Doctrine of holding terrorists and those who harbor them accountable. I have no problem hitting the terrorists, their backers, and those who incite them, and hitting them hard. I just don't see genocide as a moral, necessary, or realistic option.

There are many Muslims throughout the world who have not engaged in violence, nor actively supported it. The silence of Muslims at atrocities committed by Muslim terrorists is despicable, but is not a capital offense.

#127 RickZ

You misunderstand me if you believe I think we should wait. I do not. Rather, the opposite. We cannot wait for what might be the natural evolution of Islam into something more benign. I am just stating that "revolutions" in human philosophy take (on the order of) centuries to become accepted. And that I do not believe that Islam, in principle, is somehow immune to change. Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism have all shown marked change in the course of their histories. There is no reason Islam could not. It is a relatively young religion. But in the words of another poster(s):

Faster, please.

134 andrew2  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 8:44:36am

#132 Momzilla

Comparing Mormans to Moslems and expecting similar results is bound to fail in real world experience. Consider the violent history of the Arab created religion through 14 centuries.

Falling into the religious equavalence trap renders one defenseless in supporting the comparison of the two on civilisational grounds alone. They represent the anthithesis of Christianity and Judiasm and virtually every other religion.

Christianity in any of its various denominations is ideologically like oil to the Arab created religion's water.

135 RickZ  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 8:48:52am

# 133 transient:

I hear you, but when you say in # 125:

do think Islam can change from a fundamentalist, literalist religion encouraging murder to a more tolerant, tolerable religion

or this in # 133:

And that I do not believe that Islam, in principle, is somehow immune to change. Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism have all shown marked change in the course of their histories. There is no reason Islam could not.

I get the impression (not sure if it's mistaken, though) that you believe in Islamic reform. But Islam without Mohammed or Allah is not Islam. And Islam cannot reform without reforming Allah and damning Mohammed. When Christianity went through its Reformation, it did not have to repudiate its founder, Jesus Christ, nor His prinicples.

136 Lizard#9  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 8:53:27am

#113

You are perhaps right about the Arabs. There is definitely something wrong with their society. Genocide in Sudan, the Palestinian death culture, on and on and on and on. Even the emperor wants to nuke em.
[Link: www.nicedoggie.net...]

137 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 8:54:14am

transient,

Hold on there Pecos Bill, I am in no way advocating genocide!!! I'm just saying that if these animals continue with their onslaught on humanity, then it's going to come down to drastic measures, although I was trained to kill the enemy, and by the way will always have that mindset, as an American Soldier I also have compassion and love for the children we are trying to protect, mine, theirs, it doesn't matter, I hate to see children die in war but being a sensible man it's the way war is, I'm just saying they have to be hit hard just once and it will be all over!

138 Shira  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 8:57:06am

Anything for the cause ... even child sacrifice.

Moloch would be proud.

139 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 8:58:09am

#135 Rick;

Islam does not have to explictly repudiate Mohammed. It has to "reinterpret" or reject the more toxic provisions, in much the same way that Judaism and Christianity have rejected slavery, which was condoned in the Tanach (Hebrew Scripture).

Read Irshad Manji's The Trouble With Islam for a better idea of how Islam can be reinterpreted and reformed.

I believe in killing the terrorists, killing or imprisoning those who offer them material support, and reforming Islam as a better alternative than genocide.

140 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 9:03:28am

Nam Grunt;

I apologize if I misunderstood you, but there have definitely been people posting on various threads saying "the answer" was to "nuke the Muslims" and "kill the 1.2 billion of them," that "we have enough bullets to do the job," etc.

That is the mentality that disturbs me.

I understand "collateral damage." There are unfortunately civilian casualties in any war, and I can accept that. But I do not want to target civilians solely because I dislike their religion, even if I see it as a threat.

141 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 9:13:47am

transeint,

I have three questions to ask of you.

1. How old are you, and have you ever served in the Armed Forces?

2. What actions would you take to protect your family?

3. Would you advocate the use of Tactical Nuclear Weapons, if your entire neighborhood High School was taken over and destroyed by muslim terrorists?

I have carried two of my best friends in the world to a MedEvac chopper in body bags, after being riddled with machinegun fire from our enemy, the enemy is the enemy, and whatever it takes to defeat them I'm all for it!

142 Split Level Head  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 9:19:21am

I wonder if under Muslim law if there is a way of excommunicating a Muslim for a crime that “harms the image of Islam". I would even take that as a sign that they are sincere about their condemnation. Somehow I don't think that will happen.

143 The Bruce  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 9:20:57am

Nam Grunt:

In a way I agree with you, but sad as it is our President is a bit busy now trying to get re-elected. I promise when he does all hell is going to break loose,

How can W truly marhsal the country behind him if he doesn't do it before the election? In effect, he will lack a mandate to wage war. The only way he can claim general support for a radical change in war strategy is to go to Congress, again, and ask for a formal declaration of war against Iran, Syria, etc.

I was hoping that he would start the education process during the convention, but I guess he's taking the cautious route. As effective as that now seems electorally, I don't think it will last through October, given the increasing number of terror attacks globally. At some point, W and Kerry will be compelled to answer how they will deal with World War IV.

144 visitorstay  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 9:24:20am

International Hajib Solidarity Day rally in Dallas today. Should be huge. Not.

4th September 2004 - International Hijab Solidarity Day

145 RickZ  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 9:25:06am

# 139 transient:

I guess here's where we part company.

Islam does not have to explictly repudiate Mohammed.

To reform, the murder, mayhem, robbery, rape, misogyny and slavery that Mohammed believed in, lived by, and taught to his followers HAS to be repudiated, completely and in full. Without Mohammed, and his principles for 'life', as spoken in his 'prophet' mode, there can be no Islam; it transmorphs into something else. But whatever the end result of that transformation is, without Mohammed, it will no longer be Islam.

And until Mohammed is gone, we will have atrocities occurring because Mohammed said they're okay (that whole Infidel idea). Mohammed and Islam are too inextricably tied together to have a meaningful reform within Islam without the repudiation of Mohammed and his beliefs, as he instructed to, while demanding subservience from, his 'faithful'. Mohammed is not a pillar of humanity to praise or follow, his lie of a life being summed up by 'Believe in me and follow, or die'. Can't see how that idea can ever be reformed. The sugar-coating of "the toxic provisions" we have now, and I don't believe those saccharin statements, either.

146 Partisan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 9:39:29am

#140 transient

"That is the mentality that disturbs me."

jihad and it's actions disturbs me.

"But I do not want to target civilians solely because I dislike their religion, even if I see it as a threat."

I could care less about their religion. I care about their actions.

Terrorist do not exists in a vacuum. They are funded and supported by civilians within islam. Therefore those civilians stand by our enemies therefore those civilians are our enemies. Because our enemies choose not to wear uniforms or have a state does not mean that we should not seek out and destroy all means of support and resupply.

They choose to place their support infrastructure within their civilian populations and then rely on the decency of their enemies not to destroy said infrastructure.

Enough of that, if you stand with and support terrorist then you are a valid military target.

147 Momzilla  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 9:42:17am

I disagree, Rick. If we continue to concentrate specifically on the antisocial behaviors, eventually they'll have to rewrite their history and we can just pretend we don't notice.

And I'll stand by my mormonism analogy, while conceding that it's a much smaller scale and built over a shorter time period. Because of this, bringing about radical change in Islam will take a larger commitment and longer period of time.

There's nobody who persecutes and hates those mountain mormon fundies more than the members of the main church. I believe that it's because they are an embarassing reminder of their own antisocial past, which the church has rewritten and the documentation of which is carefully hidden in vaults in the mountains there in Utah. But our government wisely leaves it to religious organizations to worry about their souls as long as they're being good citizens and obeying the laws of our land.

I think that staying the course in the WOT, while tossing out the occasional platitude that gives the more sane among the muslim leaders an opportunity for a turnabout while saving face (and influence/power) will be our best hope. Let's leave it to the religious community to worry about their souls and evangelize them, and the Lord to determine their eternal destination. As far as the world is concerned, what do we care if they want to worship a rock in Saudi Arabia and rap their heads on carpets several times a day?

148 RickZ  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 9:57:13am

# 147 momzilla:

If we continue to concentrate specifically on the antisocial behaviors, eventually they'll have to rewrite their history and we can just pretend we don't notice.

When anti-social behaviors are the foundation of a 'religion', then that 'religion' has got to go. Was not fascism anti-social? Or communism? Or a plethora of other -isms? Are they not religions to their followers? Islamism is just another -ism in a long list.

Islam is rewriting history right now, and we aren't pretending that we don't notice, we really don't notice. Western Islamapologetics are doing that very historical rewriting within many educational fields, to our shame.

149 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 10:01:41am

141/ nam

1a. Take the 5th.
1b. No.
It is difficult and unreliable to answer hypotheticals. On the advice of my attorney...oh, screw my attorney.
2. If directly threatened, I would kill.
If indirectly, vaguely, distantly threatened, I don't know,
it would depend on the nature and severity of the threat.
Obviously in our current situation I support the WoT and the War in Iraq. I was ready to pick-up an M-16 in Afghanistan but I would not qualify for combat (you may take that as a partial answer to 1a).
3. This is why people who are directly affected by a tragedy should not have their finger on The Button. I don't know what I would advocate in that situation. I don't think someone in that situation should be making the call.

Sitting in an armchair, I would have to ask, use TNW against who? where? why, specifically? What are the options?

I don't even know enough about TNW and the longterm implications for the region, fallout, etc.

150 ganzo azul  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 10:02:51am

Newsday.com prints a slightly different version of the article written by Maggie Michael, AP Writer printed in the Jerusalem Post.

This text was missing from the JP article:

Ali Abdullah, a Bahraini scholar who follows the ultraconservative Salafi stream of Islam, condemned the school attack as "un-Islamic," but insisted Muslims weren't behind it.

"I have no doubt in my mind that this is the work of the Israelis who want to tarnish the image of Muslims and are working alongside Russians who have their own agenda against the Muslims in Chechnya," said Abdullah.

151 The Monster  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 10:06:31am

Since the ROPers claim that these people are not Muslims, let's get them on the record:


We, the undersigned, hereby declare that the true definition of 'Islam' is the PERSONAL and VOLUNTARY submssion to the will of Allah. We affirm the fundamental brotherhood, as the sons of Ibrahim, of the People of the Book: Jews, Christians, and Moslems; whether or not their beliefs entirely agree with our own. Even those misguided pagan, polytheistic, or even atheist souls who must answer to Allah for their lack of faith, are humans who have the right to live, and the right to believe even that which damns them. We must each fight the true inner jihad to purify our own faith, and serve as examples that may bring the kufr to see the error of their ways.

We renounce the use of force to convert infidels, and the killing of innocent civilians. Those who do these things are not Moslems; they are animals who pervert the teachings of the Holy Koran to justify their atrocities. We reject them: they do not represent us. We will not allow them to act in the name of our faith. They are not even worthy to be the fleas that infest the excrement of pigs. They do not deserve our financial, moral, or legal support, nor shelter amongst us. When we discover any information about these terrorist spawn of Satan, we will cooperate fully with civilized authorities to hunt them down as the dogs they are.

Either sign this, convert to some other religion, or don't be surprised if you get lumped in with the terrorists under the Bush Doctrine:

152 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 10:07:40am

#145 rick;

There are many who think as you do. I do not (presently) agree, but my mind remains open on the issue.

In the study of history we find that religions change significantly from how they were originally defined, perhaps in response to circumstances. This is perhaps a very theoretical response to a more pressing issue, but as a Jew, I have a very long term view of these things. Judaism is radically different from what it was 3000 years ago, because of multiple factors including the Babylonian Exile and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Perhaps the current War on Terror will be such an impetus to "radical" change in Islam.

153 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 10:12:25am

transeint,

No such thing as being distantly threatened, we are directly threatened! Remember 9/11? and it's just a matter of time before something terrible like this event in Russia comes home, to the USA, f*ck all of that appeasement for muslims and wringing our hands, I say hit them hard and swift, and IMHO Russia is getting ready to wax some a**.

154 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 10:17:36am

#146 Partisan

I think you need to read my comments more carefully. I really don't feel like repeating myself. To sum up:

Kill the terrorists. Kill or imprison those who give them material support (including major funding and incitement).

I have been to Israel multiple times. I follow the news there closely. YOU do not have to tell ME how terrorists shield themselves among civilians. I KNOW terrorists do not put on uniforms. I have NEVER said that terrorists should not be targeted if they happen to shield themselves by living in civilian areas.

I support Israel's targeted killings, including that of Sheikh Yassin. I would (and have) supported similar actions by the US government/ Armed Forces.

You say you care about their actions. So do I.
Hold those who act accountable-- not those who do not.

All these things are not the same as dropping an atomic bomb on Teheran cause "I don't like them [bigoted word]s."

(It's also a bit worrying that this is probably counts as a "nuanced" view on this site.)

155 Lewis  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 10:28:57am

A very very obvious reform needed in Islam is to stop presenting Mohammed as a role model for all mankind.

He, and his actions, could be looked at from a historical perspective. He was a part of God's plan at the time.

Is it not possible to separate the past actions of God's prophet from the current Islamic dogma of "what would Mohammed do?"

You can't change the Koran, but the violent actions of Mohammed found therein don't have to be a blueprint for how the Muslim faithful should live their lives, does it?

Isn't this just a matter of shedding the literalist interpretation of the text?

If anyone has insight into this, please give a holler.

156 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 10:31:10am

For further clarification, let me tell you where I am coming from.

If the Nazis had found two Jews that had actually conspired with the Soviet Russia, (or did whatever the Nazis used as an excuse) would that have justified the Holocaust?

10 Jews?

100 Jews? Would that justify the murder of 6 million?

I am not trying to defend the actions of terrorists, they deserve to die and their hateful organizations deserve to be annihilated. But there are a lot of innocent people, who have committed no violent act, and do not offer material support to these people, and they do not deserve to be "genocided."

For those who are religious, remember that Abraham argued with G-d, to preserve the innocent of Sodom and Gomorrah. The guilty were slain, the innocents were brought out. Your own theology teaches you to make the distinction--even if Islam does not.

I've got to say, this is a pretty minimalist "defense" I'm offering-- the ONLY thing I've argued, essentially, is against mass murder. I wouldn't think that should be so controversial.

157 RickZ  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 10:31:16am

# 152 transient:

In the study of history we find that religions change significantly from how they were originally defined, perhaps in response to circumstances. This is perhaps a very theoretical response to a more pressing issue, but as a Jew, I have a very long term view of these things. Judaism is radically different from what it was 3000 years ago, because of multiple factors including the Babylonian Exile and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

I try not to look at history anachronistically. To judge a good king, living in 1100, by today's standards is silly, and goes nowhere. That is why I look at Jewish history from 3,000 years ago with an eye on the reality of the time: It was a pretty tough world back then. Even Christ lived within the Roman Empire, one of the greatest empires in world history. Yet even He did not lash out and demand from His followers the deaths of Romans in response to the barbarity of that Empire. But Islam has had 1,400 years to change, modify, reform, or whatever. It has failed to do so, and will never do so, without some serious help from us in exploding their beliefs into rubble.

Perhaps the current War on Terror will be such an impetus to "radical" change in Islam.

In the 3 years of the WoT, the impetus is there, but the radical nature of Islam is growing more entrenched, and more bold. What we have now is a growing chorus of "That's not true Islam" from Muslims commenting on the atrocities commintted in the name of Islam, but I do not see an overall change in the perceptions of the followers of Islam. They'll nod and wink us to death with their inane pretzel logic concerning the atrocities, but do nothing tangible to stop it, condemn it, or jail those who believe in it. I grant you, it would require a massive jail construction program, leaving many societies damn near empty of decent people. But if they don't do, we will. Our time frame is the only question.

158 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 10:35:47am

#155 Lewis,

Isn't this just a matter of shedding the literalist interpretation of the text?

I seem to be in the minority here, but that is the opinion of self-declared "Muslim-refusenik" Irshad Manji. Read her book: The Trouble With Islam.

Her website

159 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 10:46:09am

Rick;

It has failed to do so, and will never do so

...

Point of logic: the latter does not necessarily follow from the former. For one thing, in 1400 years, Islam has been largely isolated or dominant. That period has notably ended.

There is currently a tiny, tiny voice of reform in Islam. We need it to get stronger. Inevitably any massive change in philosophy requires a long time frame to become internalized.

I'm not suggesting we wait around and not defend ourselves in the meantime. I'm just saying trying to annihilate 1.2 billion Muslims is not a moral (or realistic) choice.

160 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 10:58:03am

Nam Grunt;

When I said directly threatened I meant if someone entered my home I would be prepared to kill them. Because I am not personally fit for combat (age, gender) I am grateful to those who have done so and continue to do so.

I remember 9/11 damn well. I do not see how my position, as stated on this thread, can be remotely construed as appeasement, or even hand-wringing. I have not once objected to the use of military force targeting a terrorist or his backers, even when civilians were killed/injured as "collateral damage." We have to do what we have to do.

I just do not believe in the deliberate targeting of a civilian population with no reason other than their religion.

--Nor, I should add-- do I oppose the actions taken by the Allies in WW2. But the situation today is different, the technology is different, the enemy is different (in being diffuse, and not under the control of defined nation-states).

161 RickZ  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 10:59:16am

# 155 Lewis:

You can't change the Koran, but the violent actions of Mohammed found therein don't have to be a blueprint for how the Muslim faithful should live their lives, does it?

But once you start getting into the psycho-babble of Islamic 'humiliation', I see no way they'd suffer the 'humiliation' of their 'prophet's' life impugned, or watered down. Maybe a well grounded education would help, but since their lives are interwined with their beliefs to such an overriding degree, I cannot see how they could possibly reform Islam. Who will risk being the first apostate on their block to die for raising the question? Especially when it is easier to go along, and take no responsibility for one's actions or the actions of others of their 'faith'.

The thorazine option might help keep the nutjobs drooling over themselves rather than drooling at the thought of killing women and children as a mark of their 'religiosity'. It's also non-lethal in medicated doses.

# 158 transient:

the [shedding the literalist interpretation of the text] is the opinion of self-declared "Muslim-refusenik" Irshad Manji.

But once you are a 'refuse-nik', are you Mulsim? Once you refuse anything, do you become not that thing?

---
I'm off to watch the US-El Salvador World Cup Qualifier. Will check back later.

162 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 11:00:46am

transient, you make some good points but am I the only one who is sick of hearing about Irshad Manji? She is but one person and she is cited over and over and over ... I don't believe she'll have an impact on the Muslim world because not only is she a woman, she's a lesbian. They probably don't even consider her a Muslim.

Canadian Muslims rally against hijab ban

A group called the Canadian Muslim Women Committee has organized a conference for Saturday in Montreal to mark International Hijab Day.

Irshad is writing books about modernizing Islam while her Muslim sisters in Canada are rallying to ensure that they maintain the right to remain oppressed. Feh.

163 sgt tom  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 11:01:41am

i sent mr. putin a message of support... and a suggestion that he convey to the troops involved (they will be feeling terrible over the loss of life, and trying to second guess their actions) that they performed admirably, and could have done little else.
would encourage others to do likewise.
it's actually not hard to do...
email the president of the russian federation
go ahead, make a difference, or at least make a noise.

164 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 11:29:49am

transient,

I agree with alot of what you say, but no matter how much history you quote, that's all it is history. I don't believe you are hand wringing and if I remember correctly history is something that happened many years ago. I say again I'm not advocating genocide of muslims, but I am advocating to strike the extremists hard, whatever weapons are used by the west. We are in the 21st century now and it's time to change history, we can't let these murdering animals continue to subjucate free loving people.

165 Partisan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 11:32:06am

154 transient

You believe that we should sort the good muslims from the bad muslims.

I believe that we should apply 'pressure' until the muslims sort themselves out.

We infidels can never really tell the good from the bad, but those within islam can.

We simply have to motivate the good to destroy the bad.

Anything less divides our efforts and postpones our victory.

166 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 11:33:46am

#162/ zulu

I have heard other names mentioned but they don't get much publicity and I don't remember them. I agree that she alone will not have a huge, or at least rapid, effect, for the reasons you state (and simple intransigence on the part of Islam). I'm sure the imams don't consider her Muslim-- but unless there is official excommunication I don't think they get to decide.

Every now and then you can find a truly moderate article in the Arab press. Not often enough, but they're out there.

I mentioned her because Lewis had specifically asked how literal Islam can be changed and she specifically addresses the issue of reinterpretation, with examples, in her book. I'm not on a crusade!

And apropros of nothing...we both used "feh" independently...good for a smile when I saw yours!

167 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 11:38:03am

#164 Nam Grunt;

I'll say we're probably in 98% agreement and willing to let it rest at that.

#165 Partisan;

Not sure how mass civilian murder achieves your goal of "motivating" them to do this. Personally, I suspect it would have rather the opposite effect.

168 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 11:40:30am

transient, I think that at this point I am so jaded that I don't trust those so-called moderate Muslims. See Meryl Yourish's link in #98.

And apropros of nothing...we both used "feh" independently...good for a smile when I saw yours!

:-)

169 Partisan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 11:51:08am

#167 transient

"Not sure how mass civilian murder achieves your goal of "motivating" them to do this. Personally, I suspect it would have rather the opposite effect."

Seems they (9/11, 3/11, Russian Children) should have thought of that first.

War has historically been about 'mass civilian murder'. It's about time we wake up from our Geneva Convention fantasies and act accordingly.

170 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 12:04:27pm

#168 zulu

I'm not talking about the so-called moderate clerics, labeled as much by the media, which can't tell a hawk from a handsaw whichever way the wind is blowing; I'm talking about articles, sporadically posted on MEMRI (in pleasant contrast to the much more common "kill the apes and pigs" theme), or even rarely by an LGF poster (again, too rare for me to come up with a link) as in the "oh wow, look what a pleasant surprise" variety.

Yes, it's like finding a needle in a haystack, but you gotta start somewhere.

171 RickZ  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 12:05:48pm

# 139 Partisan:

Seems they (9/11, 3/11, Russian Children) should have thought of that first.

And once reprisals for the school barbarity are made, the events that triggrered that response will be blamed on the Crusades, or some such nonsense. Islam is a cancer on the soul of humanity, lacking thought, self-criticism, and personal responsibility, all concepts in the modern Western world.

172 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 12:15:27pm

#169 Partisan;

Seems they [Muslim terrorists] should have thought of that first.

Kinda makes my point. We are not Them. The reason we are fighting them is because THEY do this. Their tactics of mass murder have not persuaded us to surrender (except perhaps the French)-- just the opposite. The tactic is counterproductive.

War, historically, has been about the acquisition of territory, resources, wealth, and power. Mass murder is a by-product.

War historically was also conducted with swords. War changed. Just because it was done that way 1000 years ago doesn't mean we should do it that way now. We (the US) have invested huge sums of money in increasing the accuracy of our weapons, which allows us to target the guilty and avoid, as much as possible, the innocent. That's all for the best, IMO.

173 Partisan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 12:30:20pm

#172 transient

I sincerely believe you mean well and you truly believe that your chosen strategy can win this war.

I disagree with you and would urge you to read

The New Arab Way of War

You are entirely correct "We are not Them" but all laws, principles and ethics are secondary to my children surviving.

Understand?

174 Partisan  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 12:44:00pm

From Logic and Sanity


As I posted before:

323 dead, 156 of those are children.

But it gets even worse. 260 are missing.

175 Stan LS  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 12:48:35pm

Latest update

323 dead, 156 of those are children.

*260* are missing.

176 munchkin  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 12:50:27pm

guys, I think I just saw a pig flying. The Toronto Star printed this.
OMG.

[Link: www.thestar.com...]

They used the word "Islamist". I am sooo shocked.

177 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 12:50:59pm

What do you mean missing?

178 Lewis  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 12:59:46pm

#176

Arab leaders, Muslim clerics and ordinary parents across the Middle East denounced the school siege that left more than 340 people dead, many of them children, as unjustifiable.

Interesting word, no?

Not "unacceptable"
Not "evil"
Not "un-Islamic"

See? Now, if only there were a way to "justify" the jihadis, everything would be okay. Never mind the dead bodies.

179 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 1:00:38pm

munchkin, that's their coverage of it, that the Arabs are upset? I really despise the media.

Images of dead, wounded and traumatized Russian children being carried from the scene of a rebel school siege horrified Arabs, prompting forthright self-criticism today and fresh concern about an international backlash against Islam and its followers.

Bullshit on the "self-criticism", the Arabs never blame themselves, never. The part about a backlash is more honest. That's all they ever worry about is themselves and how it will affect their "image".

Some warned such actions damage Islam's image more than all its enemies could hope. Even some supporters of Islamic militancy condemned it, though at least one insisted Muslims were not behind it.

And then they start with the lies and the conspiracy theories. The Zionists are behind it. I'm 95% sure! Bastards. They are so selfish, only worried about themselves.

Ali Abdullah, a Bahraini religious scholar who follows the ultraconservative Salafi stream of Islam, condemned the school attack as "un-Islamic" but insisted Muslims weren't behind it.

"I have no doubt in my mind that this is the work of the Israelis who want to tarnish the image of Muslims and are working alongside Russians who have their own agenda against the Muslims in Chechnya," said Abdullah.

That has been repeated in several reports. The latest lie, courtesy of Islam.

180 Stan LS  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 1:01:00pm

zluababy,

That's what it says on gazeta.ru - 260 unaccounted for.
When the explosives went off in the gym, the roof caved in and police/rescue workers are still going through the rubble.

The death toll will, unfortunately, rise.

i will be updating my blog as I get more info, but its night time in Russia and nothing is coming out right now.

181 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 1:02:01pm

Lewis, it's all a farce but they can only keep up the pretense for so long. Occasionally the truth slips out.

182 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 1:04:49pm

Stan, I didn't realize that, I thought they'd got them all out :-(

I can't believe how cruel this is.

According to hostages, on the last day of the siege the terrorists did not allow anyone to use the bathroom.

Some children ate plants that were in the building, because they were so hungry.

Some children drank their urine, because of thirst.

According to one of the hostages terrorists raped some older students.

One hostage is saying that one of the terrorists was "nice", he sat quietly reading Koran and had a beard. "When I asked him if we'll be freed, he said: I don't know guys, I am not in the know".

Terrorists had a cellphone and would regularly report to someone on the outside.

Terrorists told children that the tap water was poisoned.

When the hostages tried to escape as the storming took place they were shot in the back, one of the hostages claims that one of the terrorists who was shooting was smiling as the children were falling.

183 jemima  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 1:15:34pm

Terrorist?

That means nothing. The IRA is/was a terrorist organization but at least we *knew* they were Irish.

Chechen terrorists? Pali Militants? Jangaweed Rebels? It's all the same avoidance.

If Fox says terrorist well that's better than saying militant Chechen but it doesn't tell the world who's to blame. We need to get them to identify the terrorists as Muslim (spit)

From whence does this scourge spring? Islam (spit). We get nowhere until we put the two words together again and again and again.

The media must say the words they can't get out of their mouths. It must become a meme. It must become as familiar to us as the jingle for McDonald's.

"Say the words, Modell"

184 RickZ  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 1:19:11pm

# 182 zulubaby:

A line from youre quote:

When the hostages tried to escape as the storming took place they were shot in the back, one of the hostages claims that one of the terrorists who was shooting was smiling as the children were falling.

This Islamic attitude is reformable? I think not.

185 [Engineer]  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 1:24:40pm

transient,

You say that Islam has not done anything in 1400 years. Not so, they took over many countries and made a good try for Europe. In fact it took 500 years to get them out of Spain.

Do you support the way the U.S. fought WWII against Japan?

On one night, that of March 9-10, 1945, 234 Superfortresses dropped 1,167 tons of incendiary bombs over downtown Tokyo; 83,793 Japanese bodies were found in the charred remains—a number greater than the 80,942 combat fatalities that the United States sustained in the Korean and Vietnam Wars combined.


The Jacksonian Tradition

That was one night of a 5 month bombing campaign, then we used two nuclear weapons.

Societies make war, not armies or, in this case, terrorists. I really don't want to see that kind of killing, but I do want to win this war with as few deaths on our side as possible. I think President Bush has made an error in not being more forceful in Iraq. This was probably on the advise of State and is, IMHO, going to cause more deaths in the long run.

We have to hurt them bad enough that they give up on their idea of making the whole world Muslim.

186 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 1:43:40pm

#173 Partisan

You speak of "my strategy" but in fact I haven't even articulated one. (Nor did I set out to.) I only stated my opposition to mass murder and my opinion that, hypothetically and over the long term, Islam can be reformed. That is not a strategy.

Excellent article, but even Layton says:

The West could retaliate with random and indiscriminate attacks on particular Middle Eastern cities, thereby replicating the Arab warfare approach, but this goes against centuries of Western efforts to limit the impact of war and is completely unacceptable.

He does consider attack on civilian populace acceptable under certain circumstances, but the response again depends on the stimulus.

...a declaratory policy could be devised based on the threat of retaliation if an attack occurs in the West by nonstate actors using the Arab way of war. In such a circumstance, there could be a strategy of instant, graduated response: nuclear strikes against several of the capital cites of the Middle Eastern nations that long have demonstrated support for this method of war.7 The response's intensity and discrimination would vary based on the severity of the WMD attack. This approach would be a policy of deterrence through the threat of brutal and immediate punishment of particular societies.

He notes this strategy is primarily for deterrence, and is non-random. He also details additional (nonviolent) methods which ought to be used in the WoT.

Again, my objection was to the cries I've seen on various threads on the past few days, calling for random Muslim blood--without regard to any strategy whatsoever.

I think his ideas certainly warrant consideration. Whether a particular attack is justified or not will await the occasion--which I hope never arrives. In any case, we absolutely have to develop some long term strategy.

I think I have said about all I can say on this topic.

187 Big Digger  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 1:47:32pm

Kill the Islamazoids now, please.

Islam delenda est!

188 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 2:02:32pm

#185 engineer.

It's been a long thread and I'm getting bored. Where, SPECIFICALLY, did I say Islam hasn't done anything in 1400 years? Are you sure I wasn't talking about religious reform? Please supply post #.

Do you support the way the U.S. fought WWII against Japan?

As in post #172, I merely note that decisions to bomb the civilian populace in Dresden, Tokyo, and London did not convince the populations of Germany, Japan, or the UK respectively to surrender. If anything, it just pissed them off.

Please see my post #160.
I am not going to second-guess decisions made in that war. Hiroshima worked where fire-bombing Tokyo did not, but perhaps we should take into consideration factors like the novelty and asymmetry of the new technology. Are you sure it would have the same effect today on stateless terrorists looking for world Jihad? Please be SURE before you push the button.

Another, random thought:
Is it possible, strategically, to isolate the Arabs (+ Iran) as 'the troublemakers,' without involving the rest of the Muslim world? If you bombed the Arabs and Iran "to glass" as some are putting it, can you keep the Turks, the Indonesians, the African Muslims et al. from getting involved?

Strategically speaking, we need to address Iran and Syria first: these are REGIMES we know support terror. And Saudi-- but in a nicer "gentler" (non-military, for the present,) way.

189 Miggie  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 2:18:35pm

179 Zulubaby

Damn! I was going to write that.

At least one of the imams firgured out that the Israelis were behind it because they wanted the Muslims to look bad. It is all so obvious. Those evil people pretended to be Muslims, killed all those children, to give Muslims a bad reputation.

I wonder if one person in the world believes that, including him.

190 [Engineer]  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 2:23:32pm

#188 transient In post #159 you said:

Point of logic: the latter does not necessarily follow from the former. For one thing, in 1400 years, Islam has been largely isolated or dominant. That period has notably ended.

In 1400 years they have grown, mainly by the sword, from a Arab tribe to 1.2 billion in many countries.


The Japanese sure were meek after the war - they really didn't want to piss us off again, unlike Iraq today.

191 RickZ  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 2:24:32pm

# 189 Miggie:

I wonder if one person in the world believes that, including him.

It will have a long shelf life in the Islamic world. No one ever accused Muslims of critical thinking.

192 transient  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 5:09:26pm

Engineer,

Yes, we were discussed reform and (revolutionary) change in religion. Rick said they had not reformed in 1400 years. My reply was to the effect that they had not had any stimulus to reform: they were isolated from outside ideas (and were ethnocentric enough to believe they were superior to the ones they encountered).

I didn't claim they didn't grow: I think the statement "or they were dominant" takes care of that.

193 zulubaby  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 6:13:32pm

Miggie (#189)

I wonder if one person in the world believes that, including him.

There are people who are willing to believe anything about the Jews. It's disgusting.

194 BlackyA4  Sat, Sep 4, 2004 9:43:16pm

The following excerpts are from Operation World, a very detailed guide to people groups around the world that is used by Evangelical Christians- pg 549

"The North Caucasus Peoples
2. Islam predominates in all the indigineous peoples except the Ossetians who are largely nominal Orthodox. The Islamists, with much help from the Muslim World, have wrested the initiative in Chechnya and its war against the Russians. They press for a single Isalamist North Caucasus state.

6. Chechnya has long resisted Russian rule. The wars of the 1990's continue with the Russians controlling the plains in the day and Chechen guerillas the mountains. This war is part of a wider strategy to form an Islamic Caucasus state."

Russia's first move into the Caucasus
From The Great Game by Hopkirk- pg 160
"More than twenty years of incessant warfare lay ahead before Shamyl (leader of Dagestan) was defeated, and a further five years before the Circassian tribes were finally overrun."

Last summer we were in St. Petersburg, Russia.
We had dinner with a Russian friend. I asked him about the Chechen situation. He uses anecdotes to relate current events. He spoke about some new neighbors who had moved from Dagestan. They were ethnic Russian, and had felt threatened by their Muslim neighbors. So much so they left to start over again in St. Petersburg. This Russian feels that of all the Caucasus peoples, Chechens are the most restive and crimminally bent; kidnappings for ransom, etc.


This entry has been archived.
Comments are closed.

^ back to top ^

log in
Name:
Pass:

Register Forgot Your Password? My Account Re-send Confirmation (To log in, cookies must be enabled in your browser!)

► LGF Headlines

  • Loading...

► Top 10 Comments

  • Loading...

► Bottom Comments

  • Loading...

► Recent Comments

  • Loading...

► Tools/Info

► LGF Hits

► Slideshows

► Resources

► Never Forget

► Statistics

► Tag Cloud

► Contact

You must have Javascript enabled to use the contact form.
Your email:

Subject:

Message:


Messages may be published in our weblog, unless you request otherwise.
Tech Note:
Using the Contact Form

► News/Opinion

  • Loading...

More Partners

Compare Electricity Prices in your area. Texas Electricity is deregulated; you have the right to choose Texas Electric Rates from among many Texas Electric Companies.

The lowest of the low.

Follow Lizardoid on Twitter

All-New BN Kids Store! Inspiring curious minds everyday.

 Frank says:

Who are the brain police?