This man is capable of retrospection, an admirable trait and necessary for reform.

It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims.

That is certainly true.

I really don't know what to make of this. It sounds like he is the rare MMM, but he has done so much to promote the cause of global jihad that it doesn't ring true.

Part of what makes this war so hard to fight is that we are not really sure who the enemy is. Just the terrorists and their supporters, or all of Islam?

No mention of Israel, though. Must be because the Jews are a special case.

They may be slowly mastering the obvious.

(A religion) that calls murder the most heinous of crimes, that says explicitly that if you kill one person you have killed humanity as a whole

Provided that "one person" is another muslim and male.

I will believe these words
when all over the world the muslim communities will start taking to the Police the cells of terrorists living in their midst.
When they will form armies to defeat the terrorist groups and send them to help the West in its self-defense war.
When they will hang Arafat, destroy Fatah, Hamas, hezbollah and all the other terrorist orgs.
When they will depose the ayatollahs.
When they will renounce nuclear power.
When they will stop invading the West.
When they will reduce the price of oil to help the world to develop and grow.
When they will allow us to build Churches and temples in their Countries.
When they will stop the building of thousands of mosques in non muslim Countries worldwide.
When they will modernize their schools.
When they will abolish all the shari'a laws everywhere.
When I will see hundreds of millions of muslims demonstrating in the roads against every form of violence and abuse.
When they will undergo an Enlightenment.

The guy is just trying to cover the ass of the muslims after the last unspeakable act, I bet that the same day he has been involved in some dirty plan against us.

...and one for the political/moral relativists:

In Saturday's Guardian Isabel Hilton gave a more interesting explanation. This is an era, she pointed out, of asymmetric warfare in which - regrettably - outgunned insurgents eventually come after kids, journalists and Nepalese cooks. What else (she implied) are they going to do? But wasn't Gandhi's situation asymmetric? Did he take over schools and kill the kids? Did Mandela? Is it really the case that what we have here are outgunned liberation movements?

Observer article

#3 scaramouche

It's bloody fucking amazing that he's managed to talk about problems in the Muslim world WITHOUT mentioning teh j00s.

I'm not sure I've ever - EVER - seen that happen before.

Acknowledging Charles' caveat, this is a great article.

#5 Freakyboy

They took that sentiment from the Jews - the Talmud says, "Whoever destroys a single life is as guilty as though he had destroyed the entire world; and whoever resues a single life earns as much merit as though he had rescued the entire world."

#6 Poitiers-Lepanto

You just hit a towering homerun. It's certainly nice to see statements like this...now, the big question, what is he going DO about it? Otherwise, it's just a bunch of electrons that could be put to far better use doing almost anything else.

#9 Laura SF

No doubt. Islam just narrowed the definition of "a life".

We cannot redeem our extremist youths, who commit all these heinous crimes, without confronting the Sheikhs who thought it ennobling to re-invent themselves as revolutionary ideologues, sending other people's sons and daughters to certain death, while sending their own children to European and American schools and colleges.

This is a crucial point in the article for the decent Muslims to appreciate. Unless and until they change this constant barrage of hate and revenge they will not get out of their rut. A billion people can't be willing to continue being the most despised people on earth because of what a million or so of their co-religionists do.

I used to think that so much damage had already been done that it would never change... now I think that it can be done. It may take 50 years or so but as other people change over the years and figure out what is destructive, the arabs/Muslims should be capable of it as well. Articles like this are a deperately needed ray of hope.

I'm with Poitiers-Lepanto.

OT but discussion for another thread . . .

Has John Kerry said anything about how he would respond to the Beslan horror?

I'm not sure I can go along with characterizing Islam as "an innocent religion". Lest we forget, long, long before our current problems with Islamists, the concept of jihad gave true believers the reason and impetus to conquer and destroy. Yes, kudos for acknowledging the deadly nature of your religion at the moment, Mr. al-Rashed, but how about some nod to the fact that these acts didn't suddenly materialize out of thin air, and that there are scriptural sources for them. The concept of jihad in and of itself may be said to be at the root of the problem.

What #6 Poitiers-Lepanto said.

And to add, lets see how long this man stays alive.

From the article:

Let us listen to Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the Sheikh - the Qatar-based radical Egyptian cleric - and hear him recite his "fatwa" about the religious permissibility of killing civilian Americans in Iraq. Let us contemplate the incident of this religious Sheikh allowing, nay even calling for, the murder of civilians.

My read is that it is still okay to kill the American 'occupiers'. The clown who wrote the article still can't give credit to the US Military for cleaning his house of the rattlesnakes that have infested it. No, the rattlesnakes have caused Muslims humiliation. But their humiliation is their own insipid belief system, and that's still a bridge too far for him to cross.

Wonderful words. Now let's see some action on the part of Abdel Rahman ("servant of God the merciful"). A change in the editorial policy of al-Arabiya would be a sincere start.

Nice, but it would read better if he said "Let us acknowledge their reality and change ourselves immediately, instead of denying them and seeking to justify them with sound and fury signifying nothing."

#3: "No mention of Israel though"

Scaramouche: towards the end, the author says:

"We cannot tolerate in our midst those who abduct journalists, murder civilians, explode buses;"

I can't recall any exploding buses outside of Israel, so I think he is including Israel here.

#10 Skippy

I can actually tell you what he's gonna DO:
he will use this column for the rest of his life to "prove" that he is in good faith and a moderate and that muslims are actually not dangerous for us.

It's an alibi.

These are not idiots, they understand that our public opinion early or later will erupt against their filthy behavior, subculture and fake religion so they try to build a wall of smoke around themselves.

I stay to the facts. And his TV should be taken off the air, as a first good thing. Together will All Jazz.

#14 Promethea

No doubt he would take a sensitive, nuanced approach.

#9 LauraSF:

I've been reading the prophetofdoom.net website that I found mentioned here.

Yes, Muhammad did borrow (plagiarize?) the Talmud's phrase about he who saved a life has saved the entire world, et cetera.

But he also altered it. Apparently, this is the full quote of Qu'ran 5:32:

"We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person—unless it be in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief in the land—it would be as if he slew all mankind: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all humanity."

That tiny addition: "unless it be in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief in the land" - can be used as justification for Terror.

He's halfway there. Admitting that all terrorists are Muslims is a good start. But he blows it right at the beginning with the title: "Innocent religion is now a message of hate." For him to reach full enlightenment he's got to realize the reason why all terrorists are Muslims: because it is Islam that makes them terrorists. It is NOT an innocent religion. It is, in fact, the very cause of the problem. It is neither innocent nor a religion. It is a totalitarian belief system that encourages and enforces the very attitudes that turn people into "terrorists." To my mind, a terrorist is nothing more than a pious Muslim following the dictates of Islam to the letter.

But hey, even the longest journey begins with but a single step. Better than nothing.

#20 D.C.

You're right. Didn't see that initially. Still don't think Islam's all that innocent, though.

I'm not Christian, but I think a good Bible quote is relevant here:

"By their fruits you shall know them."

He saw he polls.He knows W is not going to stop.Although this little article gives us hope,just remember that it is also their"policy" to lie to us and make us complacent.Trust not their words but their actions,

#14 Promethea

Kerry didn't even say anything about Beslan during his radio address yesterday. But lo-and-behold... today (and seeminly back dated, because it sure wasn't there when I checked his site yesterday)... Camp Kerry released this statement:

Statement by John Kerry on the Terrorist Attacks in Russia
For Immediate Release

Senator John Kerry released the following statement today:

“Teresa and I are deeply saddened by the tragic deaths and injuries of so many young schoolchildren, their families and teachers at Middle School No. 1 in Beslan, North Ossetia. Our prayers and sympathy are with the people of Russia in these days of immense grief.

“The tragedy in Beslan follows a horrific series of terrorist attacks in Russia. Americans stand united with the people of Russia against terrorism and share the Russian people’s grief and mourning at these senseless deaths.”

Now why wouldn't he actually say that at any rally or appearance???

Too busy coordinating the attacks (yet again) on GW's National Guard service??

OK, I know I have posted this before, but if you haven't read it, please do so. Notice how the FOUNDER of this religion himself got people murdered, even stabbing sleeping single mothers to death, slaughtered, killed, rampaged and pillaged. Innocent religion my ass.....

[Link: www.faithfreedom.org...]

Oh, I call bullshit. I posted on another thread today and I'll post it here. Islam treats women and dogs like shit and promotes murder. He can decry the tactic all he wants, it does nothing to mitigate the substance.

14 Promethea

I had the links last night on a thread, I'll look for them, but about the same time all of the msm was reporting 340, johnny Cambodia was saying 200.

One, you'd think his msm pals would clue him. Two, johnny was saying that the "200 deaths", plus Hurricane Frances, were being used for cover by the Bush Admin. concerning their plans for the country and the WoT.

Some more. Read it:

[Link: www.faithfreedom.org...]

[Link: www.faithfreedom.org...]

[Link: www.answering-islam.org...]

Fine. But it isn't a few mad clerics re-inventing Islam...those feinds are evoking Islam.

You, al-Rashed, are a relaxed Muslim, one who refuses to acknowledge that those imams and their terrorists base their acts on word and verse of the Prophet's Recitation of Allah's Will.

You should be denying your Prophet and rejecting your God.

Elcid;

Actually, the Bush campaign has secret weather control devices and they generated hurricane Frances specifically to deflect the JoKe's lethal response to the RNC.

I guess you didn't get the memo.

/conspiracy theory off

An interesting essay. It would have more impressive had it been published in the Middle East instead of in London's Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, however.

#28 Darleen

He isn't saying anything because, if you're John Kerry, what can you say?

You can't talk about how unnecessary this war in Iraq was in the fight against terrorism because the Russians stayed out of it and, yet, they've been attacked.

You can't condemn the perpetrators becuase you believe that you have to have "evidence" and you believe that this is a law enforcement issue, not a war. No one has been proven guilty yet.

You can't talk about getting crushing the terrorists because you believe that the threat of terror is exagerated in the first place and a good chunk of your supporters think the US is the underlying problem anyway.

But, ultimately, if you're John Kerry, you don't do anything other than blandly issue a press release about something because that's who he is. That's how he's handled every public issue in his life since the Vietnam War ended.

Fcuking A- hole

This is bullshit meant for the English speaking world. I don't believe a word he says.

What does he say in his Arabic writings?

Maybe he could do something useful besides trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

Such as inventing child-sized body bags so Islam's victims don't have to be wrapped in clear plastic.

#21 Poitiers-Lepanto

"It's an alibi."

Yeah, probably. But that's only a possibility if Abdel Rahman al-Rashed is in the REALLY big leagues of trying to make his way among the infidels, because no regular muslim will write so clearly about Islamic responsibility.

I think I've run across only one Arab who would talk so unequivically who isn't a non-Muslim, a former Muslim or considered an apostate.

.....................

Read this thread (except the end which is blog spam).

The exchanges between Lilith and the few Muslims who tangle with her are instructive - though not hopeful in any way.

[Link: www.secularislam.net...]

Mamoun Fandy (the Arabic media critic who has been mentioned on LGF before) was interviewed on the NPR show "On the Media" about the Arab media and he talks about Abdel Rahman al-Rashed -- in a nutshell, Fandy says al-Rashed is a good guy trying to change a bad culture at al-Arabiya:

Well, Abdul Rahman is-- Rasheed-- is a very serious individual who is an honest journalist who tries to do the best, and he gave me a couple of examples [of distortions of news], one of them from when he was the editor in chief of Asharq Al-Awsat the paper that I write for. He said he caught one of his editors trying to change the caption of an AP photo about an American soldier talking to an Iraqi girl and made it into an American soldier soliciting sex from an Iraqi girl.

He's the new head of Al Arabiya, and he said something that I did not quote in the piece in the Washington Post -- when he went into his first meeting with his people, he said "Look, you are very much like drug addicts as far as hate America campaign that you are involved in, and I'm giving you three months for detox. If you do not get over it, you know, consider yourself not working for me." But he said, you know, it's been three months, and they are still really addicted to the same stuff.

The rest of the Fandy interview is worth reading too, I urge you to check it out. I leave you with Fandy's final remark:

The Americans thought that Al Jazeera is somehow the, the Arab CNN, but it's not the case whatsoever. Al Jazeera is not CNN. Al Jazeera is not journalism, period.

Here's the link:
http://www.wnyc.org/onthemedia/transcripts/transcr ipts_070904_outrage.html

He somehow went through the entire article without mentioning the attacks on 9/11 also. Could it be that he's still in denial about Muslims being behind those attacks?

Or could it be that he thinks that those attacks, just like the attacks upon Israel, are justified and therefore don't deserve to be mentioned.

This editorial might be a good start, but I think he's still a worthless piece of shit.

#28 Darleen

I expected Kerry to say something about the massacre. My question is: have the leaders of any Muslim countries--Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc.--said anything about it? Have the "spiritual leaders"--the ones who aren't actively encouraging the faithful to go out and kill more children--said anything about it? WHERE ARE THE OTHER DISAPPROVING ISLAMIC VOICES?

Also, has Kofi Annan said anything yet? Anyone at the UN planning to pass any resolutions about it? Is the World Court of "Justice" planning to try the Chechnyan warlord behind it as a war criminal? At the moment, there is a resounding silence from those quarters.

#35, 39

These are good points. The article was published in the Telegraph one day after appearing in the Arabic language paper. This suggests the author had an English-language version prepared for submission. It would be instructive to learn if the Arabic language version actually said the same thing.

Child martirdom returns to the Palestinian Authority

O/T but potentially big news:

Has the King of Clubs been captured?

#41 Bildo

He somehow went through the entire article without mentioning the attacks on 9/11 also.

Silly Bildo. That's because everyone knows the Mossad was behind those attacks.

#47 scaramouche:

I thought it was President Bush and the dark agents from Homeland Security.

I view this as taqiyya, personally. It doesn't cut to the root problem, which is the literal interpretation of Islamic scripture. He is saying that, a priori, Islam is essentially a blameless (innocent—ha) ideology which has been co-opted by "extremists." Most Westerners will eat this up like Mom's home cooking because that's exactly what they want to hear. Who wants to believe that an entire faith is profoundly flawed and virulent?

Also, his criticism of al-Qaradawi's recent fatwa appears to be an opportunistic jab at a rival Jihad TV network. Sheikh al-Qaradawi has a popular talk show on Al-Jazeera.

This last month has basically made worldwide Islamic terror impossible to ignore. Someone has to come out and say things that will assuage the anxiety of the kuffar. That's why I think it's taqiyya. I'm pretty cynical about Islam anyway, though. I've found it's the most prudent manner to handle it.

All that notwithstanding, I think it's great that some Westerners will now see that even "they" are beginning to acknowledge that something's wrong. I'll take any crumb of hope I can find in this feast of madness.

Re: #41 and #47

I would think 9/11 is covered in this bit--after listing many other attacks by Muslims, he says:

"Bin Laden is a Muslim. The majority of those who manned the suicide bombings against buses, vehicles, schools, houses and buildings, all over the world, were Muslim."

While I agree this is not the 99 theses nailed to the church door, I think this is the basis of the Islamic reformation.

Remember, Europe went through over 100 years of war and nastiness over its reformation.

Remember all the internal crusades, remember the Inquistion, remember witch hunts, remember the pogroms, and cat burnings in Germany.

The difference here is the weapons.

I'm not saying, necessarily, that Islam is reformable. I don't know enough about the ideas governing change, what's acceptable and what's not, when a religious idea becomes heresy. It seems much more amorphous than medieval and reformation era Christianity.

But this is at least a start, and emphasizes the evil of 'religious leaders' sending other people's children out to die, the thing that makes me shake with fury.

funny how 19 terrorists boarding four passenger jets, crashing in to three separate buildings, annihilating 3000 people at work... was not enough to cause this type of soul searching.

oh i forgot, that was against the US, so it wasn't such a big thang.

funny how the whole children angle of the Ossetia terror is harped on now by western media who otherwise have had nothing to say about use of palestinian children by jihadists.

But let us start with putting an end to a history of denial.

That was easy. What's next?

# 50 D.C.:

I would think 9/11 is covered in this bit

I think you're reaching. Would it have been so hard to mention that 9/11 was carried out by Muslims, too? He merely choked on the words because 9/11 was perpetrated against the Great Satan. He mustn't lose his readership.

#49 patrickafir.... I view this as taqiyya, personally.

Same here. It's impossible to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. --->>

Why Mohammed was not a prophet:

One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad’s life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives and their “right hand possessions” (Quran 33:50) He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way. Muhammad was a narcissist like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified. [Link: www.apostatesofislam.com...]

Curb your enthusiasm, folks. These people are world-class liars, and you know it.

mr kerry's heartfelt concern, yesterday. Guess johnny Cambodia got shamed into issuing a heartfelt tuhreza statement, today.

9/4/2004: Kerry Meltdown Watch

#40 Elcid 9/4/2004 06:19PM PST

Kerry: Bush Aims to 'Bamboozle,' Hide Medicare News
"He promised again a couple of nights ago to strengthen Medicare," Kerry told a rally at a baseball stadium in Akron. "Then you wake up when a lot of the news is being hidden by what's happening in the hurricane down in Florida, what's happening in Russia with 200 people tragically killed by terrorists."
Yahoo News

__________________________________________

Putin Urges Strength; School Toll Tops 340

Sep 4, 5:29 PM (ET)

By MIKE ECKEL

BESLAN, Russia (AP) - A shaken President Vladimir Putin made a rare and candid admission of Russian weakness Saturday in the face of an "all-out war" by terrorists after more than 340 people - nearly half of them children - were killed in a hostage-taking at a southern school.
MyWayNews

E. Nough reminds us that the Islamic world went apeshite when the U.S. bombed Afghanistan and notes the resounding silence over the school massacre.

New strange paradigm:
The GM of Al Arabiya is now more anti-terror, and honest, than Bush, Putin, NYT, WaPo, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, and NBC. Fatwah alert!
[Twilight Zone music]

I agree that Islam could use more criticism, but he's already going way out on a limb.

#54:

Could be, Rick, but in my first post (#40), I quoted Mamoun Fandy about how al-Rashed told his staff when he came on-board at al-Arabiya that anti-Americanism was like an addiction and he wanted them to detox.

But it is true that the other incidents were spelled out in more detail (e.g. Khobar, etc.).

#51 Dianna,

Your missing it big time. The only reason politcized or tyrannical Christianity could reform is because there was something better than it in the Scriptures. Islam can't reform unless it gives up it's wiping out the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospels and agrees that Jesus was on the cross which the quran explicitly denies. That the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospels are not distorted writings by the Jews. It also for reform has to give up it's creation of G-d in the likeness of Satan no matter what Mohammed said. To reform it must stop considering Christianity( believers in Jesus) a poly-theistic religion they are ordained by allah to wipe out by force if need be. (There is more basis in this area it would need to recant)

And for non-Christians or secularists reading this, I am not at all interested in converting you or persuading you of anything.. What I want you to recognize is that islam takes on Christianity and you can't begin to think you can get them to drop islam and become atheists. But if they reform at all their only option is Christianity. If you read the quran and do some comparative religious studies, you would understand what I am saying.

BTW, we're all (Jews, Christians, Hindu's, Buddists, Atheists, etc.) still waiting for evolutionary processes to kick in and save the day...crickets chirping...

# 3 scaramouche

No mention of Israel, though. Must be because the Jews are a special case.

Newsday reports -

Ali Abdullah, an ultraconservative Bahraini religious scholar, condemned the school attack as "un-Islamic" but insisted Israelis - not Muslims - were behind it and wanted to "tarnish the image of Muslims."

Link

After reading the apparently heart-felt words of disgust with his co-religionists, and even accepting Charles' well-advised caveat about Al-Arabiya, I am saddened at some of the attitudes expressed about this article by some of the previous posters. It appears that nothing less than the extirpation of the religion of Islam from the face of the Earth will do for some posting on this thread.

That's going way overboard. I hate to use the word "nuance," but it seems appropriate here. To truly understand our enemies, we must understand that they are not a monolithic fanatical death cult of over one billion souls.

Our enemies are those Muslims, unfortunately too many of them, who refuse to realize that the words of a 7th century "messenger of God" cannot be taken literally in a 21st century world, but must be adapted to fit modern circumstances, just as most Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists, etc. have done so.

Mr. al-Rashed provides us with a different face of Islam - a face which may distrust us and what we stand for (clearly evident in the content of his cable TV station) but also a face which is revolted at the disgusting violence being perpretrated by Islamic religious fanatics, even in Israel apparently.

Go see the movie "Control Room," about al-Jazeera. While there is plenty in that movie to make me mad, there was also an illuminating view on the struggle in the Arab world to come to grips with fundamentalist Islam, its horrible rulers, and the promise that Western ways of life have.

#61 Roger

I'm acquainted with most of the major scriptures of the world; I think you can get anything you want out of any of them.

That doesn't mean I don't agree, at some level. It's that I approach the argument with some caution, because I know that I'm ignorant of the internal historical debates of Islam. As it currently stands, with a fairly recent innovation in Wahabism, Islam is doomed. Its own followers won't follow that particular sect much longer, not once they start having more say over their own lives.

I agree that I might be completely missing the point. But the history of the world isn't a pretty thing, and Christendom required a long, very bloody dialogue to get anywhere. I dread the reformation of Islam, if it follows that model.

#64 Dianna,

I follow what you are saying and for the most part we aren't in great disagreement.

The answer is islam will never reform in the direction we desire, period. Otherwise it would no longer be islam. Wahabism is actually it's reform back to it's origins.

What makes you think they are going to have more say over their lives?

What broke tyrranical Christendom was the Scriptures being written and finally printed using GutenBerg's automation in the venacular of the common folk.

There is no equivalent for islam.

#63 martinsmithy, if I still believed that islam is a separate and "one of the three great religions of the world" as I did a few years ago then I could have written something similar to what you wrote.

But after studying the quran nothing could be further from the truth. islam is an anti-religion. It's whole basis is in making sure that people would not become Christians or polytheists thereby not needing/paying Mohammed during his life-time and the leaders/immams of islam ever since.

#63 martinsmithy

Neophyte.

#63 martinsmithy, also if you think it was heart-felt and sincere then read http://answering-islam.org.uk/Muhammad/hudaybiyya. html This is confirmed in the Hadiths.

#66 Roger: I don't understand your second paragraph.

I haven't read the Quran, and I don't intend to. But then, I haven't read much of the Bible either, so I can't speak as to the intricacies of Christianity or Judaism.

Isn't it the point of Christianity to convert the "heathens?" How does this make Islam different in that respect?

#58 scaramouche:

I guess "even-handedness" is a one-way street. The West has to use it. The Muslims don't.
>infidels, this way please...

#65 roger;

There is no equivalent for islam.

The internet is still young, my friend. The imams will not be able to stop the free exchange of ideas. Whether that will do any good is another question, but the potential certainly exists.

Although better funded, and certainly more violent, Wahabism, as a religious philosophy, could be compared to Puritanism. Puritanism is dead. It did not take over the Christian world.

Wahabism needs to be challenged, but it is not the inevitable future of Islam.

#69 martin;

er, Christianity is not currently murdering people with the justification that they are "infidels," or "the sons of apes and pigs."

Some cultures have shown moral advancement in the past 1000 years. Others have not.

#69 martinsmithy

I haven't read the Quran, and I don't intend to.

Then you're not qualified to speak about Islam. You should also read the hadith, and Sirat Rasul Allah wouldn't hurt either.

We don't hang out here criticizing Islam because we're Christian, because we're ignorant, or because we're knee-jerk xenophobes. Most of us have taken the time to learn about Islam, which is far more convoluted, complex, and all-encompassing in its dogma than Christianity or Judaism. You should do the same if you'd like to be consequential in any way when discussing the topic.

#69 martinsmithy,

The quran states explicitly that it supercedes the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospels. It claims validation based on these Scriptures but rewrites about many of the Biblical characters including Adam, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, etc. It states that Jesus was never on the cross and was never crucified.

Qur’an 5:17 “Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.’”
Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”
Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’ But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’”
Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the People of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease.”

Qur’an 4.171 “O people of the Book (Christians), do not be fanatical in your faith, and say nothing but the truth about Allah. The Messiah who is Isa (Jesus), son of Mariam, was only a messenger of Allah, nothing more. He bestowed His Word on Mariam and His Spirit. So believe in Allah and say not Trinity for Allah is one Ilah (God)…far be it from His Glory to beget a son.”

Qur’an 5:75 “The Messiah, Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had to eat their food. See how Allah does make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded!”
Qur’an 4:157 “‘We [Jews] killed the Messiah, Jesus,’ but they killed him not, nor crucified him. It appeared so to them (as the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man and they killed that man). Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself. Those who differ with this version are full of doubts. They have no knowledge and follow nothing but conjecture. For surely they killed him not.”
Qur’an 4:171 “O People of the Book! Do not exaggerate in your religion; nor speak lies of Allah. The Messiah, Christ Jesus, the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not ‘Trinity.’ Cease and Desist: (it is) better for you: for Allah is one Ilah (God). (Far it is removed from him of) having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. The Messiah is proud to be a slave of Allah, as are the angels, those nearest. Those who disdain His worship and are arrogant. He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer)…. He will punish with a painful doom; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or save them.”
Qur’an 4:159 “And there is none of the People of the Book but will believe in him (Jesus as only a messenger of Allah and a human being) before his (Jesus’) death. He will be a witness against them.”

Qur’an 5:116 “And behold! Allah will say: ‘O Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?’ He will say: ‘Glory to You! Never could I utter what I had no right.” Qur’an 5:117 “I only said what You (Allah) commanded me to say: Worship Allah, my lord and your Lord. I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them but you took me up. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world.)”

There is more but I ask Charles forgiveness for his bandwidth.

Please pardon my ignorance, but what does "taqiyya"
translate to in english?

We don't hang out here criticizing Islam because we're Christian, because we're ignorant, or because we're knee-jerk xenophobes. Most of us have taken the time to learn about Islam, which is far more convoluted, complex, and all-encompassing in its dogma than Christianity or Judaism. You should do the same if you'd like to be consequential in any way when discussing the topic.

I, for one, don't feel the necessity to eat the entire apple to confirm that it's thoroughly rotten. As has been pointed out countless times before, and on the current thread as well, by their fruits shall ye know them.

The fruits of Islam are poisonous. If we have to uproot the entire tree, so be it.

realwest:

Please pardon my ignorance, but what does "taqiyya" translate to in english?

"Holy (bull)shit".

Literally, it means "concealment". In theory and practice, it means lying to advance the cause of Islam -- not only permissible, but encouraged.

#74 realwest

Taqiyya is a popular Arab drink, often served with lime and salt—I kid!

It means lying, deceiving, or hiding ones true feelings for the sake of religion (Islam).

#70 transient , I copy.

To clarify my point, the common islamic folk reading the quran don't have it read to them in Latin and have the immams tell them what it says.

Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

That is just a little different than "strike at their necks" that Islam demands.

#79 Carolyn, try again.

Come again?

#81 Carolyn,

It's worlds apart in difference.

I guess I should attach sarcasm tags to my posts , I would never equate Islam and Christianity. I just thought it was understood.

#83 Carolyn, Ahhh Carolyn, I watched some terrible videos this week so the phrase "strike at their necks" blinds me.

With sarcasm it reads much better:-)

#78 Roger;

To clarify my point, the common islamic folk reading the quran don't have it read to them in Latin and have the immams tell them what it says.

I'm sure we're on the same page in general but I don't know what you mean by this. Generally speaking, "well-educated" Muslim
children, er, BOYS, are taught to recite the Koran, to memorize it verbatim, and not to debate it. They are certainly not taught critical thinking skills, and are susceptible to the interpretations of their imams.

It is only acceptable to teach the Koran in Arabic. Therefore, the effect on Muslims whose native language is not Arabic is very much like having it read to them in Latin.

#85 transient, I did not think of it that way. Thanks!

#85 transient, I still see a difference though. They need to read it in their venacular to disbelieve it. while reforming tyrannical Christians needed it in their venacular to believe and quit thinking they should use force to make people be Christians.

Then came the Neo-Muslims.

Militants, insurgents, rebels, gunmen, separatists...
This is a new one!
But we have Neo-Cons!

#69 martinsmithy,

Isn't it the point of Christianity to convert the "heathens?" How does this make Islam different in that respect?

Some misguided Christians may have given you this impression. What Christians are to do is provide information and if the heathen wants to believe it is up to him.

As Carolyn points out in #79, Matthew 10:14.

This morning I cringed as I walked by the street preacher with his 4x4 cross on his shoulder as he yelled at me about what a heathen I am. I find it all too assumptive and I believe it is better to discover what is in peoples hearts first before reaching any conclusions.

Islam shall reap what it has sown.

Why does this Islamist cry that his crop was too bountiful? Was it because it became ripe before harvest was due?

/Ok, now I'll read the coments.

Hope no one minds that I will put my .02 cents in ...

So here goes ..

The article gives me a teensy, tiny bit of hope that some Muslims are waking up. BUT ...

1. I really would like to know what prompted this article?

2. Is it just more takkyia as some have already speculated (sp?)

3. Or did he finally see the light?

As for Islam being 'innocent', I agree with #6 Poitiers-Lepanto, who made some very good points.

Words are cheap. Before I start cheering for what the guy wrote, I will wait to see what his article brings about. What I mean, is does the Muslim world ignore it or not and what will they do about it? And how will he handle any criticism that may come his way?

Our TV is usually on Fox News. We were flicking around as we were cooking dinner, and the channel ended up on network NBC's nightly news. The short coverage of the school attack was attributed to "Islamic Militants". That jaw-dropper gave me more hope than this article.

#90 PETN Sandwich 9/5/2004 04:00PM PST
Islam shall reap what it has sown.

Why does this Islamist cry that his crop was too bountiful? Was it because it became ripe before harvest was due?

Amen.

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

We cannot redeem our extremist youths, who commit all these heinous crimes, without confronting the Sheikhs who thought it ennobling to re-invent themselves as revolutionary ideologues, sending other people's sons and daughters to certain death, while sending their own children to European and American schools and colleges.
This guy wants us to believe the muslim community are innocent of these crimes against humanity. Does anyone really believe he is innocent? Is any muslim innocent of these crimes? Did they denounce these murderers when they stood in their mosques and preached hatred and murder? This man is worse than all the others. He did not actually do the murders. He just stood by while others did. To be silent is to agree.

What a pathetic record. What an abominable "achievement". Does all this tell us anything about ourselves, our societies and our culture?

Out of his own mouth comes the truth. All these people are about is murder. Death for their own children, death to other people's children. Nothing of decency, nothing of love, nothing of the good in man. The god they worship demands the blood of human beings. He is not satisfied unless someone's husband, someone's wife, someone's father, someone's mother, someone's child is murdered for him. This is the evil of islam. Murder! Murder is preached with an understanding that murder will be rewarded. Blood! Blood from the innocents. Their god is a god of murder. Murder is all this religion is about. Every who believes in the Koran believes god desires murder.

A couple of things really struck me:

"...For it would be easy to cure ourselves if we realise the seriousness of our sickness. Self-cure starts with self-realisation and confession. We should then run after our terrorist sons, in the full knowledge that they are the sour grapes of a deformed culture...."

"...the sour grapes of a deformed culture...." Well put!

and this:

"...We cannot clear our names unless we own up to the shameful fact that terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women...."

That's the first time I've heard a Muslim in a position of prominence say anything even close to the truth about Islam's connection to what's been going on in the world.

I don't know how much clout the General Mgr. of al-Arabiya has, but one would presume he's speaking to those who need to know, not the unwashed masses who like to be informed. He's talking to the upper middle class who's sons these young men are.
These terrorista kiddies are the sons and daughters of well-to-do upper-middle class parents. They go to college and become radicalized by the imams he talks about. I hope his words strike a chord. I hope...

It is a start...

30 grayp

I see that you dont take this article at face value

I wonder why. Some thoughts on this article

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And then look at this one

It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims.

Daniel Pipes has been saying precisely this since 9/11. At the very least, honesty demands the author acknowledge Pipes original quote. It is not good to pass off something as one's own thought ...

For lack of better place to post...

The Putin "Russia is weak" comes from one who remembers Mother Russia crushing flies with a sledgehammer.

Suggest the USA trade Iran for the Saudi, after all, the Saud's did demand the US leave.

WWII did beget WWIII, WW IV will beget WW V. Best to make a genleman's agreement now. I hope the Sauds enjoy their eternal martydom.

/pure speculation

#98
Yes by all means.
I posit encouraging Shiite Iran to claim the rightful control of mecca which is under the sunis. They can settle old scores and the mossie prob. gets halved.
Might work I recall a few years back, the Iranian pilgrims at the Haj did raise a stink to that effect.

#40

Al-Jazeera isn't CNN, Al-Jazeera isn't even journalism by our so-called MSM standards. Al-Jazeera is a Protocols of the Elders of Zion with slick production values.

grayp

grayp

Dr Alan Clifford is a vicar in Norwich. He got into hot water as he wrote that Islam is an evil religion and the antidote to such evil was the love of Jesus. Note 'antidote'. As per form, a witch hunt ensued, with even his MP telling him to shut up. Amazing. Well Dr Clifford refuses to bow down like a good little dhimmi and is upping the stakes.

Here is the link.

[Link: www.jihadwatch.org...]

I think he requires as much support as he can get. Write to him. He is deeply appreciative of the support he gets. When this erupted a few weeks ago, he was pretty isolated and up against the PC crowd and Muslim council of Britain etc - the usual suspects. His predicament came up on Dhimmi Watch. We then sent him emails to support his brave stand. The result is that he feels that he is not without support and that he is not a lone voice in the desert. Things are looking up.

His email

"Dr A Clifford"

grayp

It seems I cant write his email down. There may be some tags that are preventing it. Any way, Dhimmi watch has the email.

Let us acknowledge their reality, instead of denying them and seeking to justify them with sound and fury signifying nothing.

A short visit to the Islamic Forum's Political Board is sufficient to show both the denial and the justification in full swing. "They weren't muslims - but if they were they were justified!" It is a diseased, deluded and illogical culture.

Does anyone have a link to a site that keeps a running tally on the death toll of islamic terror attacks dating back to the 1970s? I remember seeing it a while back. Thanks.

#85 transient, thought about this quite a bit since last evening. The problem I see is that the imams do interpret the Arabic quran correctly for Muslims whose native language is not Arabic. Critical thinking without external input or comparative theology(with the Scriptures[Dead Sea Scrolls] the quran condemns) won't get them any further than saying the same old tripe about how bad the Jews and Christians are. It isn't like the truth is in the quran just waiting for sincere people to highlight it for the masses. They've been taught all their lives that the quran is the complete picture all by itself. Their minds are altered by it.

For example, being taught that Moses was just not up to allah's standards so a muslim companion was sent to teach him. One of the lessons, as they entered a village Moses' muslim companion kills a boy they meet. Moses was horrified and exclaimed that it can't be right to murder a boy who has not yet done anything to deserve execution. Moses' muslim companion expressed exasperation that Moses showed himself impatient with him. At the end of a bunch of such 'lessons' the muslim companion explained that the boy was predestinated to be troublesome and rebellious to his parents therefore it was best to get rid of him because the faithful parents will have another son born who will be a blessing to them.

Raise people on such crap and they will be able to murder 100-300+ children without any troubling conscience getting in the way. If it wasn't the will of allah it couldn't have been done. Therefore since they did it, it must be the will of allah.

As #101 DP111 discusses about what Dr Alan Clifford says:

Islam is an evil religion and the antidote to such evil was the love of Jesus.

Similarily I'm saying that islam is not a religion at all but rather an anti-religion and that which it is anti to, namely the love of Jesus, must be used to stop the evil.

I don't have a lot of bright hope because I don't believe Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia etc. will ever reach the security needed to allow the love of Jesus to be taught. The LLL's are combating the Bush Administration and people like Dr Alan Clifford so that even if they have four more years, these places will still be areas of the world where (#79 Carolyn) Matthew 10:14 will be practiced. Shake the dust off our feets and stay away. I don't condemn Christians for not rushing in there and being slaughtered(There was a blogger whose parents tried in Iraq and they got murdered immediately(If anyone remembers his blog, I'm trying to find it.). Most Christians I know are thinking let G-d, who leads armies (Isaiah), be the solution. Maybe Christians should make a greater effort in the safer parts of the world including the US.

The effort can be hard going. I haven't tried too hard yet, but the Muslims I talked to already knew about the love of Jesus and state catagorically that it is nonsense. allah is above such silly emotions. He doesn't need a Son so it didn't happen anyway; the Scriptures I quote are Jewish distortions. Jesus will be a witness against the Christians some day. They don't accept the message so they are Matthew 10:14 cases However I've learned a lot more since then. I may try again now that I know allah is the description(inspired by Jinn) of Satan if he were G-d.

104 Roger

I concur, that at this moment in time, the message of Jesus or the message of Secular Freedom, is far beyond the conceptual understanding of Muslims in the Islamic world. They have been brainwashed from birth to such an extent, that it has become akin to a physical disability. A mental disability that simply distorts their world view. Besides, it is dangerous in the extreme to go to an Islamic country and encourage a Muslim to leave Islam. There is no freedom in Islam, despite all the protestations to the contrary.

The opportunity is for us is to persuade Muslims in the West to abandon Islam. Whether they take up another crutch or just stand on their own feet, is a matter that is an individual judgement. It is certainly true, that Muslims by emmigrating to the West, have half conceded the paucity of Islamic culture. We have to encourage them to take the next step.

I regard this as a New Crusade - not the taking of Jerusalem but the capture of the Mecca in the mind of Muslims in the West. I'm conscious, that inreasingly, Muslims in the West are becoming uncomfortable of their ideology. This has to be turned to our advantage.

#69 martinsmithy  

Isn't it the point of Christianity to convert the "heathens?" How does this make Islam different in that respect?

Probably a repeat answer, but Christians don't, as a matter of policy, kill / enslave / punatively tax those who refuse to convert.
Not so much, anymore, anyway. 500 years ago, a different story... then again, 515 years ago, the Moors (Muslim expansionists) held Spain...

Rodger, you might want to try this argument on the Muslims.
Mohammed killed people
Jesus cured the sick and raised the dead (Lazurus, and others). Who serves the more powerful God?

95 foreign devil 
I hope his words strike a chord. I hope...

You and me both. If we cannot tell the difference between the "Good/Moderate" Muslim (assuming any such truly exists, yes) and the "Evil / extremist" ones, all will suffer greatly. As the sick joke states, "we havn't played 'Cowboys and Ay-Rabs' yet." When 9/11 happened, the local community banded together to 'protect' the mosques and 'arabic' businesses and people from harassment from others. It was not, after all, "our" Muslims who had done that. Since then, there has been no outrage, no 'not in my name' protest marches, no publicized (possibly for reasons of security, but still) cooperation with anti-terror enforcement.
I REALLY hope this article resonates, and echos, and those who feel the terrorists do NOT represent them wake the fuck up and say so.
They need to cancel the terrorist supporting 'charities'
They need to evict any one preaching hate and jihad from the pulpits
They need to turn against thier own whabbist mosques, and shut them down / convert them to a more 'relaxed' "flavor" of Islam.
Else, the next time "something big" happens in THIS country, it will be too late to protest innocence, and we may well wind up 'playing Cowboys and Ay-Rabs' with results that will make the suffering if the Native Americans pale by comparison, and the very rocks shall weep.

On this one issue, the matter of terrorism, I have to agree completely with what Abdul Rahman al-Rashed said. Terrorism needs to be delegitimized. And in today's world, terrorism is essentially terroristic jihad.

The words of Abdul Rahman al-Rashed should be beamed across the Muslim world by all of the sources available to the Western world.

But in the Western world, we have a problem with the Euros, who do not seem to have recognized completely that terrorism needs to be delegitimized. They seem inclined to try to have semi-collaboration with terroristic jihad in their diplomatic efforts. They do not fully support the efforts of other countries to defend themselves against terrorism. They do not take it seriously, when the victims are those of other countries.

So before we try to beam Abdul Rahman al-Rashed's words across the Muslim world, we need to beam them to the Euroweasels. Or better, perhaps we can find for them the words of Churchill when the Munich agreement was signed with Adolph Hitler.

Yes, there is a sickness in the Muslim world, that tolerates the terroristic madness among them.

But there is also a sickness in Europe, that cravenly grovels for the terrorists, and that is incapable of identifying terrorism as an evil that society needs to delegitimize and try to eliminate, and that cravenly tries to prevent some countries from fighting terrorism.

How, other than by assuming some kind of sickness, can one explain the refusal of the Euroweasels to acknowledge that, even when there do not exist agreed upon borders ratified by treaties between states, even when mutually agreed political borders remain non-existent and agreeing to them remains a future task, people are still entitled to build a fence to protect their children from terrorism?