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Bush Guard Documents: Forgeries?

Thu, Sep 9, 2004 at 8:32:04 am PDT

Here’s today’s Boston Globe story on President Bush’s Air National Guard service, focusing on memos purportedly from the personal records of the late Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian: Bid cited to boost Bush in Guard.

I write “purportedly” because, as Power Line points out this morning, the documents (which can be found in PDF form at CBS News) are highly questionable.

A post at FreeRepublic sums up the situation:

Howlin, every single one of these memos to file is in a proportionally spaced font, probably Palatino or Times New Roman.

In 1972 people used typewriters for this sort of thing, and typewriters used monospaced fonts.

The use of proportionally spaced fonts did not come into common use for office memos until the introduction of laser printers, word processing software, and personal computers. They were not widespread until the mid to late 90’s. Before then, you needed typesetting equipment, and that wasn’t used for personal memos to file. Even the Wang systems that were dominant in the mid 80’s used monospaced fonts.

I am saying these documents are forgeries, run through a copier for 15 generations to make them look old.

This should be pursued aggressively.

The memo dated Aug. 18, 1973 is a particularly egregious example, with curly apostrophes and a superscript “th” (unknown on the typewriters of 1973):

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226 comments

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1 Joel  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:34:07am

For those that suffer from Bush Derangement Syndrome, truth is an irrelevant category. There is only that whihc hurts Bush and that which helps him.

2 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:35:29am

Fraud? Just how far up the food chain does this go? And what is the source of these 'documents?'

3 Mr Pol  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:36:12am

What does U.S. law says about forging documents?

4 William  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:37:16am

Haven't looked into these specific memos, but he's exactly right about proportionally spaced fonts vs monospaced fonts.

That memo image, dated 1973, would never have appeared in that proportionally spaced, Times Roman font.

What a huge blunder for whoever thought they would hurt Bush with this pap...
 

5 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:37:16am

If you'd like to send feedback to CBS about their sloppy and obvious pro-Kerry bias - this might be a place to do so:

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

Scroll all the way to the bottom and click "Contact us"

6 Furious J  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:38:14am

Wouldn't it be awesome if a 'Bush Operative' did this to pull a Baba Booey on the MSM?

7 Belize042  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:38:30am

I want me of them word-processing IBM typewriters from 1970. That'd be cool.

In the same sort of arrogance shown by Clinton's most obvious lies, these people don';t care that the documents won't stand scrutiny. Who's going to scrutinize them? Not the NYT, CNN, or WaPo. Nope, just some "right wing ideologues," and they can be dismissed.

8 OPB  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:39:53am

Someone needs to do a similar hoax with Terry McAuliffe, and make him answer "the new questions about why he murdered those children" because "he owes the American people an explanation."

/pound podium with fist

9 BIG  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:40:09am

Of course these memos are real. They got them from the same guy that supplied the Hitler diaries.

10 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:40:40am

LOL. MS Word probably bumped the "th" to a superscript.

Amateurs.

Charles - In case you missed it, Norwegian kafir linked to this post at Dhimmi Watch about the Swedes losing their third largest city to moslems. Very scary.

11 Smit  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:40:58am

OT - Sorry if this has been posted before

Saudi's paid policeman to spy.

An ex-Metropolitan Police constable has admitted he took payment to provide information to a Saudi diplomat who wanted to spy on dissidents.

Pc 'was paid to spy

Name of policeman? Ghazi Kassim - a fine Lutheran name.

12 JohnAnnArbor  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:41:29am

What's the etymology of CYA?

Seriously, someone who knows about slang would know whether "CYA" was in common use back then.

But the proportional fonts are a better angle. I work with documents from that era, and those that have only a few copies are ALWAYS typed.

13 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:42:05am

So these documents are forgeries. It doesn't change the 'essential truth' that President Bush was a D-E-S-E-R-T-E-R!!!!!!!1.

el cubo in the grips of BDS/ABB

14 William  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:42:07am

Yes, the superscript "th" in 187th is the killer for these forgeries.

That's Microsoft Word, not a 1973 typewriter...
 

15 TalkinKamel  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:42:53am

It's also interesting that these memos allegedly come from somebody who is now deceased---and who can neither vouch for them, nor deny them.

16 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:43:35am

Dems...making forgeries to damage Bush's record? Surely you jest!

/LLL

I wouldn't put it past the Dems this late in the game ot start creating bullsh*t just to win this election. They've pumped the TANG "Bush = War Deserter" well dry, so now they're trying to pump water back into the well just to keep things going.

Any decent reporter would not only question these documents, but demand they be verified before running them. Then again, a decent reporter probably wouldn't be working for the MSM, so I guess our chances of this actually being hauled out and revealed for the fraud it is are utterly non-existant.

17 kstagger  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:44:22am

wow - these do look fake as all get out...

especially the 'th' part - heck, I've been typing and using computers for years... even in the 80s you couldn't get that upper 'th' in a smaller font.

18 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:44:47am

LOL. I just typed "The 187th group" in Word and sure enough, the "th" got bumped up.

But you knew that already if you're familiar with Word.

19 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:45:53am

The only thing missing is a dancing frowny-face emoticon...

20 BIG  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:45:57am

I worked on an IBM typesetter in 1978 that did proportional spacing. It looked like a Selectric on steroids. The thing was brand new (as in just released) and cost about $3500 at that time.

So unless these memos were made on a linotype (or ludlow), you just couldn't get a memo to look like this. And nobody would have ever used hot type for memos back then. My BS detector has been raised.

21 kstagger  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:47:12am

plus the wording... very strange. No one would write something like this up - this is more like 'phone' conversation type stuff.

22 JohnAnnArbor  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:47:50am

#17, #18, #14--

BONUS. That's the clincher. Someone did this on MSWord, then ran it though an old copy machine with dirty glass a few times, hoping to make it look "old."

23 andrew2  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:49:52am

#3 Mr. Pol

"What does U.S. law says about forging documents"?


The same they say about steeling them.

Clinton National archieves thief Sandi (stenching socks) Berger.:

Berger Cleared

24 Furious J  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:50:09am
The only thing missing is a dancing frowny-face emoticon...

Paging iowahawk! Mr iowahawk, Please pick up the White Parody Telephone!

This is spreading like wildfire... first Powerline, then LGF, now NRO's Kerry Spot is highlighting the possibility of forgery. All in less than an hour.

25 Great Cthulhu  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:50:42am

Someone should email this thread to Drudge.

26 Mr Pol  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:50:44am

Now the question is, will Bush be smart enough to sue?

27 kstagger  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:50:52am

plus the proportions are all wrong... early stuff - every letter had a slot and advanced accordingly.

ie the phrase CAT would fill

1 2 3
C A T

and would not form to fit like modern word processors.

the line spacing above would match the lines below if this was a '73 typewriter

28 Jamie  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:53:00am

True or fake, you have to laugh at the acronym used at the bottom of this memo.

LOL...

29 The Other Les  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:54:59am

I just pulled a copy of my travel orders from 22 Feb 83 out of old files. I wish I scan it and post it for comparison.

Kinko's maybe?

30 FreakyBoy  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:57:00am

#28 Jamie

Wow. Creepy.

31 Charles  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:57:13am

This topic just got linked at fark.com -- traffic is soaring.

32 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:04:13am

Wow! This should be a big story...

The documents look like someone (and a not very clever someone at that) forgot about how old documents used to look back before there was such a thing as desktop publishing.

They've been sent to CBS via fax, for sure, but if I was CBS (and honest -- a contradiction in terms, I realize) I'd have to see the originals before I'd run with a story based on them. I seriously doubt that the paper or ink would withstand forensic document analysis, just based on how they look. I mean, if they're modern forgeries, it should be fairly obvious.

Jeez, CBS! You might as well run your reputation for journalistic competence through the shredder right now!

Charles: BTW, is LGF under a DDOS attack now? There's over 2,700 users at the moment!

33 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:05:25am

I personally don't give a flying fuck what transpired back whenever with Bush. Why?

Bush has proven, beyond even a hint of doubt, to be an extremely competent and successful Commander-in-Chief.

The MSM has all but ignored the accomplishments of the President and has chosen to campaign for a candidate whose background is dubious, at its very best, in alliances and allegiances; and whose military record is questionable, even under the best accounts, but not open to any form public scrutiny in its entirity. Hell we aren't even talking his voting record yet!!!!

Bluntly...given the two choices in times of war, you'd better go, or stick, with a proven quantity and he'd better be good....that is definitely not J. Fuking Kerry.

34 Jack  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:05:38am

August 18, 1973 is Saturday, this person is very dedicated to type a "memo to file" on Saturday

35 teethgrinder  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:06:08am

I think the typeface analysis is wrong. The characters were obviously seared into the paper - making the memos 180 degrees legit.

(Maybe someone in the MSM can dig up a Form 180 from John Kerry?)

36 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:06:34am

The idiots at Fox are reporting as if these documents are genuine.

WAKE UP FOX!! You have the chance to be the first in the MSM to break this wide open.

Freakin' dolts.

37 European-American  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:06:51am

Sheesh, even Jayson Blair wasn't this sloppy in his work.

The proportional font is conclusive that it's a fake, so any additional aspect are just for fun. But I've never seen any military-speak that used names without ranks.

38 Right Wing Conspirator  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:07:18am

Waiting for MSM to pick this up......

waiting...

waiting and getting pissed.....

39 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:10:09am

4400 users online?! How many more can the balcony take before collapse?

40 Geepers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:10:37am

Never mind.

41 kps  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:11:49am

CBS's PDFs are low resolution and grainy, making it impossible to identify the font from the letter forms. But the distortion can't hide the proportions of the letters, as expressed in the line widths and the relative positions of letters on adjacent lines. From that, I'm convinced that the font used is in fact Times, specifically Times New Roman as distributed by Microsoft (which has slightly different spacing than, for instance, the Times built into Postscript printers).

Also, while it is possible that a typesetter could have produced a superscript "th", no operator capable of doing that would have so thoroughly botched the spacing after punctuation.

42 The Other Les  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:13:51am

I just took a peek at the discussion thread over at FARK.

Dumbasses weren't paying attention.

Feh!

43 Occasional Reader  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:15:07am

#28 Jamie--too damn funny!

Radically OT, but too weird not to share (and I know Right Wing Conspirator will appreciate this):

Pup shoots man, saves litter mates

44 Owl  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:16:56am

Now, the upstanding, morally right, patriotic, loyal, integrity-burdened Democratic party wouldn't do such a thing, would they?


I can't stand a liar.
Much less a whole party of liars.
owl

45 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:17:05am

The nuts over at Fark aren't concerned about whether the memos are forgeries or not. If you check out any Fark political topics, nine out of ten of the posters are ABB/BDS who view Bush as the anti-Christ. They could care less if the memos are fakes, as they're already convinced that 4 more years of Bush will be the end of mankind.

46 Geepers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:18:14am

That's pretty cool 5600 users online give LGF a new color scheme.

47 realwest  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:19:18am

Charles - EXCELLENT work - now PLEASE take it one step farther e-mail your post to all the MSM you can and let's see if ANY of them pick it up. It also should go to Karl Rove and Bush for President headquarter.
I'd do it, but it's your language and I'd feel funny quoting you without your permission and my broken right collar bone is making typing difficult.
However, I'm so pissed that if some one can supply e-mail addy's and if it's ok with Charles I'll send the article out myself.. (feels strange being SO pissed and laughing my ass off at the same time.

48 Sandy P  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:20:16am

Was it common to write the date 18 August in the Armed Forces?

That's the European way of doing dates.

In American business, we put the month first.
Well, we did while I was working in the late 20th century.

49 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:20:45am
That's pretty cool 5600 users online give LGF a new color scheme.

We've bumped it up to Condition Turquoise (or was it teal)!

50 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:21:06am

Is it my imagination or does fark.com have a sizable population of the lazy and dimwitted?

51 RightIsRight  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:21:25am

Evidence be damned.

Bush=Hitler.

52 Ibsulon  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:22:34am

As a Kerry supporter, I'd be very disappointed that someone forged documents to support a position.

There is so much to the Bush presidency that we can argue about that is true, there's really no reason we need to go into falsehoods.

53 Sandy P  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:22:49am

And wouldn't the font be Courier?
And was it done in Pica or Elite? But that's late 70s, early 80s.

Better compare Courier w/Times New Roman.

54 imtoast  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:24:06am

Hey, the formt on LGF changed. Is it my machine or did Charles change it?

55 Artisticulated  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:24:22am

Whot a fake indeed! So much fun to watch the Democratic desparater needle pegged at eleven.

Need more servers Charles? I had to knock 4 times to get in!

56 imtoast  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:24:56am

Never mind, it's back to normal.

57 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:25:14am

When is Drudge gonna pick up the story?

Or is he now legacy media in the Age of the Blogoshpere?

58 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:25:35am

#50 Thom

Is it my imagination or does fark.com have a sizable population of the lazy and dimwitted?

Sometimes, I wish it was my imagination. I've sat through more than a few of their "political discussions" (aka flamewars), where they didn't disprove the facts presented to them, but simply continued howling and screaming. If you need definitive proof, now they're trying to disprove the story by attacking LGF's credibility. I guess, if doesn't come from the MSM, it just can't be credible.

59 Canuckistan  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:25:51am

You guys are too skeptical. I looked around for 5 minutes and found government memoranda from 1975 that are proportionally spaced.

[Link: foia.state.gov...]

You know, computerized word processors were around since the late 1960's.
[Link: www.stanford.edu...]

60 Owl  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:27:15am
61 Gretchen  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:27:26am

I hope all the media publishes these forgeries claiming they are real.

These are probably products of the Hillary '08 campaign! Has anyone investigated the background of the "document expert" perhaps a chart with ties to the Kerry campaign would be helpful.

After they pile on with this "story" Drudge or somebody with clout will expose this. Any person who used a typewriter undertands these inconsistencies. It's pretty simple.

The undecided voters will further distrust the media.

62 BAM  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:27:45am

Ten years ago a friend of mine suggested that the next major war would not be a shooting war (wrong) but a war of information. As we've all witnessed over the past few months, the daily errors within the MSM cannot be explained away as honest mistakes. They are obviously intentional distortions of the truth, intentionally created to support "their side". Often I have wondered how I/we can get in the fight. Well, it seems like we are already in it, and we're doing a hell of a good job.

63 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:28:06am

#47 - I've emailed OpinionJournal and ABC's The Note regarding the original link source (Power Line), so I'm sure others will check it out. Jonah at NRO has posted a note saying that he hopes this gets confirmed as a forgery since it would further undermine the MSM, and CBS/Globe in particular. Folks are starting to pay attention.

Once again, I'll point out that I'm not so concerned with the content of the messages but who sent 'em and who paid for 'em. I'm also interested at how the MSM got suckered yet again with forgeries that should have been suspicious from the get-go considering the timing of their release right on the heels of the SBVs devastating ads and book.

64 Atlas Wannabe  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:29:32am

Let's have some speculation about how this will play out. CBS will be exposed as having run with a story based on obviously faked memos. Their incontinence will be exposed - a bunch of yahoos who were supposed to be working but were instead surfing the web were able to determine the documents were faked. A bunch of yahoos who were working but should have been surfing the web weren't. Confidence in MSM drops a bit further...

Should be a fun day. HTF am I supposed to get any work done now?

What's the consensus - did the dead guy fake these after the fact or are they just plain forgeries?

65 realwest  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:30:27am

#48 Sandy P - yes - the US military always dates things day, month and year, e.g., 9 September 2004.
Just think, if Kerry's team could screw something like this us so, so badly, that's another reason (not that we needed one) to not vote for him.
And a question to all - there's been all this Sturm and drang about GWB and the Guard, and Kerry still refuses to release any of his military record; how come no fuss and bother among MSM about that?

66 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:30:44am

Hey, I just noticed something else about the dates...

Is/was it customary in the military to prefix single digit dates with a zero in the era before computers were in widespread use?

67 F451  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:31:16am

59:

Re: "...computerized word processors were around since the late 1960's."

Back when I worked for the AF, the first word processor I ever saw was a stand-alone, desk-size Wang, back in 1983.

And that was at a base and organization pretty far up the food chain, not some ANG base in Alabama.

68 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:31:22am

6214?!

The referrer's page is a hoot ...

#58 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Ah yes. To the factually-challenged, argumentum ad hominem is not a logical fallacy ...

#59 Canuckistan

Here's ¢50, go buy a clue ...

69 Geepers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:33:25am

Dar ul Harb, Dude, I was on Purple Plus level. "Look at all the colors"

Thom, Hard turn left from way back.

Targetpractice,

If you need definitive proof, now they're trying to disprove the story by attacking LGF's credibility.

What the hell does this have to do with LGF, other than its been brought up?

70 Artisticulated  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:34:02am

Bzzzzzzt. Sorry Canuck, I did a quick look on what you provided and I can see you need to learn the difference between proportional and monospaced fonts.

71 relish  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:34:49am

Dear MSM and Kerry Operatives (but then I repeat myself):

President Bush is not running on his record during the Vietnam War. That would be his opponent, Senator Kerry. Please limit your Vietnam-Era investigations to Senator Kerry's record, since he's the one who feels that it's so relevant to his ability to be commander-in-chief. I believe there are a number of unresolved issues concerning Senator Kerry's service, including VC the Flying Dog, I'm Dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas, and Shrapnel is a Boy's Best Friend.

If you'd rather not look into Senator Kerry's Vietnam activities, feel free to investigate his post-service anti-war activities, his Senate record, or any of the myriad contradictory statements he's made in the past six months. That should keep you busy until the Democrat lawyers have finished contesting the results in all 50 states come November.

Signed,
A Friend

72 underground  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:35:30am

#59 Canuck

The first document was produced in the White House. I would think it likely that they had more advanced equipment than the TANG or the Bama Guard. Dont ya think?

73 mr. beamish  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:36:10am

W is for wrong!

F is for forgery.

74 Globular Cluster  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:36:57am

Nice catch on the proportional font. Let's see where this goes.

75 Rednek  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:37:08am

I just typed the first paragraph into MS Word and it looked exactly like the memo in terms of spacing and font

76 Bob Munck  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:39:09am

The IBM Executive typewriter did proportional spacing. It was introduced in 1941. They could either have had the superscript "th" (also "st", "rd", etc.) as single characters or allow the carriage to be spaced down half a line to produce the superscript effect.

One of the standard status symbols of an "important person" was that his secretary had an IBM Executive.

77 Daybrother  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:39:35am

Who are all these people? It is really crowded. I can't even see the bartender.

78 Norwegian kafir  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:39:35am
79 kstagger  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:39:37am

#59 you don't see a difference between your example and the LGF example????

80 justAnotherLurker  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:39:38am

Time out folks - have any of you actually looked at the documents.

1. They are not proportional fonts. Look at the cases where "We" show up. Proportionally this should be kerned (that is, the "e" moved to slightly under the right leg of the "W" for those who don't know what kerning is) - it's clearly not.

2. Claiming that there was no such thing as a superscript "th" on 1972 typewriters is nonsense. IBM Selectrics had dozens (maybe even hundereds) of ball-shaped typewriter heads for various fonts and functions - and superscript "th" were common. As this is probably a typewriter used at a fighter squadron, and squadrons are always named something like "123th", they would certainly have chosen a type head that had a superscript "th" to make reading such documents a little easier.

Take the blinders off, folks...

81 hcq  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:41:22am

Canuckistan, out of curiosity do you have any knowledge of what these word process from the early 1960s could do, and how widespread they were, particularly in the military?

Can you explain why the numerous corrections to the 1976 memo you linked to were done not in proportional type, but on a typewriter? If word processors were so prevalent (in 1973) as you claim, why would the White House have to resort to whiteout and a typewriter? Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect the corrected memo to go back through word processing?

82 Mr Pol  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:41:42am

#80 justAnotherLurker

You're obviously an idiot. Kerning != proportional spacing. The IBM Selectric and Selectric II only had Pica (10 cpi) and Elite (12 cpi) spacings. No proportional.

83 Geepers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:41:54am

Atlas Wannabe (#64),

a bunch of yahoos who were supposed to be working but were instead surfing the web were able to determine the documents were faked.

LOL!

CBS, Consider yo ass fact-checked.

84 Norwegian kafir  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:42:59am
85 Dave the.....  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:43:31am

I haven't been following this story that closely, so some questions.

Who brought the memo to the public? Can it be traced backwords to find out who may have forged it (assuming it is forged).

Where was the original document (if legit) created? Could the guy (if real) had some profesional equipment that was different then the typewriters we are talking about?

Used typewriters can be purchased for almost nothing (you'd think). If a fake, why didn't the forger use a 1971 era-typewriter? Is it because he assumed no one would research the validity of this? Fruadulent stuff is common in the collectables world. Poeple use old typewriters to increase the value of stuff sold on places like Ebay.

LGF is very slow. Let's see if this comes through.

86 Furious J  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:43:34am
#59 Canuckistan 9/9/2004 09:25AM PST
You guys are too skeptical.

Being skeptical takes way more intellect and guts than being a Kool-Aid Drinking, Unquestioning Trust in the MSM, Partisan tool.

87 Canuckistan  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:44:53am

#70 Artisticulated

Check the one titled "SHOULD CHILE BE INCLUDED IN TRIP". Now THAT'S a proportional font.

88 Golem Akbar  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:46:57am

Nahhh, it's real. Bushitler never served. In fact, he's not really President. He's just a hologram/robot that is channeling Sharon and the International Zionist Conspiracy. I know this because my dog told me. And he never lies.

My dog also thinks Kerry is just da' bomb.

89 realwest  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:47:01am

#59 Canuckistan - you should have spent more than 5 minutes.
Your first citation was a response to a FOIA request which was a "summary" of results found and which such response was written in the late 90's or early 2000's - all you had to do was look up the original document which was summarized to know that it was on an old fashioned, but probably electric typewriter in 1973.

Your second citation was an interesting history of the typewritten word and the progression in the means of producing it; I'm not a word processing pro, but I saw nothing which indicated the facts pointed out by Charles were contravened by this history.

90 Norwegian kafir  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:47:15am
91 JohnAnnArbor  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:47:31am

Another point:

Someone just told me that all the memo writers are conveniently dead.

Democrats would say Bush offed them.

If they're forgeries, that would be a way of preventing verification.

92 maximus  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:47:34am

I spent 6 yrs in the Army Reserve while in college '83 - '89 and never saw a personal computer. I did way way too much typing (in triplicate). I can almost guarantee you that the Texas ANG did not have the fancy word processing equipment required to type this memo. Hell, we were still running Selectrics in the 80's.

Getting that whole superscript 'th' would have been too much effort, if even possible. We were the 8063rd and never put it in superscript.

93 FabioC.  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:47:43am

What's the real difference between proportional and monospaced fonts?

94 papijoe  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:48:14am

Actually the Guard did have word processors then. They were the size of a Winnebago and required a skating rink reefer plant to cool it, but it was part of a special DoD interbranch project with the Navy's Admiral Grace Hopper, DARPA and soon to be inventor of the internet, Al Gore...

95 Shaner-411  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:48:44am

How old are you guys? 12? I remember owning a typewriter with proportional spacing well before then. What bonehead wrote that?

Sheesh! It must be the vast-left-wing-conspiracy! LOL! All you had to do was look --- here's a link to IBM history... those prop. spaced typewriters go back 30 years before that!!!! To 1941! [Link: www-1.ibm.com...]

96 Spiny Norman  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:49:05am

Thom, Targetpractice

Is it my imagination or does fark.com have a sizable population of the lazy and dimwitted?

The vast majority never bother to read the damn link and just sling insults at each other. Sadly, the Right is just as guilty as the Left. Most of the Farkers commenting on this article seem to believe that these memos were produced by the Bush White House in an attempt to exonerate the President, not realizing they were intended to make him look bad.

BTW, I did NOT submit this to Fark.com!

97 maximus  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:49:05am

OH, and btw the 8063rd was in ALABAMA.

98 BIG  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:49:16am

#76 Bob Munck

Do you even know what a pain in the neck it was to do superscripting on an old Selectric? Why would someone even bother to superscipt in a memo?

99 Furious J  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:51:01am
We were the 8063rd and never put it in superscript.

Wasn;t that a M*A*S*H Unit?

100 Norwegian kafir  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:51:36am
101 Bob Munck  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:52:09am

#80 justAnotherLurker

Kerning is something that it's possible to do with proportional fonts, but it's hard to do mechanically. The mechanism has to keep a measure of the overall width of each character to do proportional, but would also have to store the width at a range of heights above the baseline in order to kern.

A word processor would be more likely to do leding (aka leading) to adjust the size of whitespace between words.

We did all of these things with the Hypertext system we built at Brown in 1967. One of our students, Fred Wang, used the ideas in some of the systems his company produced.

102 a noble vision  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:52:24am

Amazing incompetence on the part of the forger.

Clearly, the lackey who was assigned this task is under thirty years of age and didn't know that there ever was such a thing as non-proportional type. Just like the DNC 20 year old who came to my door last week told me that the Soviet Union collapsed in the 1960s.

Too bad their forged memo didn't have an animated .gif in the Colonel's signature!

103 Elder_of_Ziyon  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:52:41am

Geez...

It is Times New Roman (or maybe Times Roman.) IBM, to my knowledge, didn't have such a font on its typewriters.

To think that everyday memo-writers would kludge up whatever methods to get the small "th" instead of just typing the two characters is ridiculous.

Moreover - the fake memos use "smart quotes" for apostrophes - even word processors and laser printers before MS Word would use a single quote character that was a vertical line that could be used as either a right or left single quote, not the character used here as an apostrophe.

I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories but I am quite convinced that these memos are pretty bad fakes.

104 hcq  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:53:32am

#80 lurker

As somebody who worked with type for years, and is old enough to remember both the Executive, Selectric, and early word processors I can promise you: you're totally off your nut.

105 greenmamba  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:54:20am

#80 lustAnotherJurker

squadrons are always named something like "123th",

Don't you mean "122rd" or "125nd" ?

106 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:54:45am

Hey! The stoopit farkers noticed my #50!

2:42:08 PM HowlingFrog

hehe, check out comment #50.

*flips the bird at LGF*

Right back atcha buddy.

107 kps  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:54:49am

#80 JustAnotherLurker 1 -- You don't understand the difference between proportional spacing (different letters having different widths) and kerning. (Incidentally, the absense of kerning in a modern document is a tell-tale sign of Microsoft Word, which (the last time I used it) required an oddly-named option in an obscure dialogue to be selected in order to enable kerning.)

#80 JustAnotherLurker 2 -- The Selectric does not do proportional spacing.

#76 Bob Munck -- The IBM Executive typewriter used conventional hammers, not an interchangable ball or wheel, and its typeface was not remotely similar to Times New Roman.

#59 Canuckistan -- The first example on the page was monospaced. If you'd like to point directly to a specific document, I'd be pleased to point out some differences between an authentic 1970s document and the new "memos", lest anyone take your assertions seriously.

108 Frank IBC  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:55:06am

When I was a member of my condo's board of directors a few years back, we received voluminous correspondence from a computerphobic malcontent, who used an IBM Selectric. That one DID have proportional spacing - as BIG points out, that did exist as early as 1978, but this is very very interesting.

a bunch of yahoos who were supposed to be working but were instead surfing the web were able to determine the documents were faked.

Versus the famous monkeys on typewriters. Heh!

#80 Just another Lurker -

Look at the letters on the top line. You should be able to draw a line straight down from each of them, and that line will fall right in the middle of a letter on each line below it, if it is indeed monospaced.

None of the letters on any of the lines align with those above them. This is a proportionately spaced font, not a monospaced font.

109 underground  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:55:31am

#87 Canuck

No answer?

110 jojofootball  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:56:16am

THE MEMOS CAME FROM THE WHITE HOUSE!

YES THE MEMOS CAME FOM THE WHITE HOUSE!

Every one of these articles lists the White House as the source of CBS's documents... I guess the Bush Admin. forgers are getting even dumber. You'd think they'd have learned after the Niger yellowcake forgery fiasco, now they are producing documents that directly make Bush look bad... ROTFLMAO

111 Spiny Norman  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:56:29am

#95 Shaner-411 and the rest of you guys insisting proportional spacing existed at the time: yes, it did, but if you read the comments by people who were in the military at the time, you'll see that the typical military admistration office did not have them, especially an ANG base, which got old hand-me-down equipment.

112 Artisticulated  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:57:21am

#87 Canuckistan

As others have pointed out, it's a typeset doc for mass distibution, that was corrected on a typewriter. You can clearly see the difference. Can't compare that to a one off memo done on a saturday. :-)

113 Geepers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:57:37am

Fabio c. (#93),

On monospace typewriters each and every letter was printed in a space the same size.

On a typewriter,

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWW &
iiiiiiiiiiiiiii

are exactly the same length.

114 Rednek  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:57:55am

Thom

I saw that too.

HowlingFrog...kiss my pucker

115 Swede  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:58:52am

The fact that this tired story is being circulated AGAIN by Kerry's big media fans gives me the impression that things really are circling the bowl for him.

Two months left and this is what they got. Oh well, there's always '08.

116 Partisan  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:59:38am

In the BushGuardaugust1.pdf document there are spaces between the 147 and "th" the 111 and the "th".

Why would a 1972 era clerk put a spaces between these characters?

At the very least CBS news and the Boston Globe need to make the originals available for forensic testing.

117 AlexM  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:59:44am

The spacing is one thing, but what about the curved apostrophes?

It's been a while, but I don't remember the old manual machines having that feature.

118 Bob Munck  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:59:45am

#98 BIG Why would someone even bother to superscipt in a memo?

Almost certainly because the Base Commander made it a policy that they ALWAYS do so when typing the name of the unit. That's a standard pointy-haired-boss declaration, and the military had them too.

Selectrics couldn't even do proportional fonts. They could switch among several fixed font widths. I've seen typewriters, maybe the IBM Executive, that had partial-line carriage rolling keys.

119 Spiny Norman  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:00:23am

jojofootball

YES THE MEMOS CAME FOM THE WHITE HOUSE!

No, CBS claims they came from the White House. I would say that someone at CBS forged them.

120 ronnie schreiber  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:00:26am

From a posting at NRO's The Corner

When I was stationed at Patrick AFB (1971-74), I distinctly recall our office (Office of Public Information) had a correcting IBM proportional typewriter along with our standard-issue Selectrics. Nobody wanted to use the damn thing. It was a pain in the butt to use because to backspace you had to use a table that prescribed the number of "ens" for each letter for both upper and lower case. I believe (but I'm not sure) that the typeface was some form of Times-Roman rather than Courrier.

They may not be forgeries, but because of the way that they address all the Democratic talking points and their unverified provenance, I'm still skeptical.

121 JohnAnnArbor  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:02:11am

Andrew Sullivan has a link to the Powerline version of this now.

122 Maitreya  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:02:32am

Wow. A few hours ago, I was just browsing Hewitt and some other blogs when I come across this story. But now, after having SEEN the documents, this is stupid. Who could have possibly been so ignorant as to think this would pass muster?

Hell, I ended my term of service with the Marine Corps in 1996, and they STILL typed up my DD214 with an IBM typewriter, even then. And it looks NOTHING like this, which is clearly a product of MS Word.

123 zulubaby  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:02:35am

Only an idiot

"Only an idiot wouldn't like this," Heinz Kerry told the Intelligencer Journal of Lancaster for a story in its Thursday editions. "Of course, there are idiots."

If Kerry is elected, Heinz Kerry predicted, opponents of his health care plan will be voted out of office. Still, the multimillionaire and philanthropist balked at the idea that she was selling her husband's plan.

"I don't have to sell it — the people want it," she said. "The common man doesn't look at me as some rich witch. I talk about what I see. It has always been so. You judge people not by their pocketbook but by their actions. Walk the walk."

Who the hell does this woman think she is?

124 Van Impe  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:03:09am

I'm not sure what's meant by "proportional font" but the fact that the words "regarding" at the end of the second line and "rating" at the end of the third line line up, indicate that the document was not prepared on a typewriter.

125 Mayor of Shadyville  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:03:27am

Rush hit it on the head, this is not going to work because the media is missing one key thing: We know George Bush, President, Commander-in-Chief. What we don't know is John Kerry's ability to make decisions in that particular position. All attacks on Dubya can't change his 4 year record, and it should be voted on accordingly.

126 V the K  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:04:17am

Just wanted to invite the farkheads to peep the next thread for some deeply offensive captioning.

127 jestep  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:04:36am

Hate to burst the bubble but, 1969

[Link: www.ebroadcast.com.au...]

"The Selectric II had a lever (above the right platen knob) that would allow the platen to be turned freely but return to the same vertical line (for inserting such symbols as subscripts and superscripts), whereas the Selectric I did not.
"

128 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:05:20am

#123 zulubaby:

That she's an idiot for calling what is likely 50%+ of the US voters in November idiots?!

129 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:05:29am

I've emailed this info to just about every news person I can think of, so we'll see if it eventually appears in the MSM.

130 Sarah D.  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:05:33am

I worked for the AL-ANG and the gals in the veteran/benefits/retirement department were STILL using typewriters (2 years ago). There is NO way anyone there had a fancy highly expensive new-fangled typewriter way back then. They were in the process of microfilming (really) the paper records and all the ones I saw looked like CRAP. Old manual looking type. It stood out to me since I just hadn't seen it in so long.

Now think about that. They are JUST NOW microfilming records.

Just think what it must have been like back then.

131 paxnhymn  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:07:14am

here's a better question folks...now that it's possible that this "memo"(i think it's single ply TP myself) is indeed a forgery, who has the power to dissiminate that possibility to conservative talk radio, where it will at least get some airplay, and Fox, because the MSM won't air opposing to King sKerry viewpoints (aka Swiftboat vets) and this need to get out...where's lawhawk? How about some kind of legal action by an individual???

132 Bucky Katt  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:08:16am

#15 TalkinCamel

It's also interesting that these memos allegedly come from somebody who is now deceased---and who can neither vouch for them, nor deny them.

Heh...the Dems have a long history of manipulating the dead.

133 Dave the.....  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:08:23am
At the very least CBS news and the Boston Globe need to make the originals available for forensic testing.


Unless he is a total idiot, the alleged forger (assuming it is a fake) would have used paper left over from that time and a typewriter commonly used in the early 70's.
Anyone who watches TV nows this.

134 JohnAnnArbor  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:08:26am

#127--

So? Doesn't explain the small font for the superscript.

Simple measurements, preferably on the original document, would confirm if the superscript is typical MSWord or typical IBM Selectric.

Analyzing documents to determine on what machine they were typed is a tiome-honored investigative technique.

135 mcg  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:09:08am

Folks,

Unfortunately, further vetting on FreeRepublic and PowerLine have largely squashed the typewriter forgery angle. I encourage you to check those sites for more info.

1) There WERE typewriters in this time period that did proportional-spaced type; the IBM Executive being among them.
2) Some of those typewriters even had raised "th" and "st" symbols to make those nice ordinals like 145th or 9221st.

So it is, unforunately, feasible that these memos were typed on date-authentic equipment.

136 kps  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:09:15am

#103 Elder -- Yeah, it's Times New Roman specifically, not Times Roman (the spacing is slightly different). It's a Monotype design -- so, did that ANG base use a Monotype typesetting machine for its memos in 1973? I'll take bets on the answer....

137 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:09:32am

Somebody help me out here ...

The White House did not release these documents. From the boston.com story:

CBS, on its Evening News and in an in-depth report on ''60 Minutes," said it obtained the documents from Killian's ''personal files." Anchorman Dan Rather reported that the White House did not dispute the authenticity of the documents and said the network had used document authorities to verify their authenticity.

The only role the White House played in this was not noticing they might well be forgeries ...

Right?

I'm not sure how this "the White House released the memos" idea came about...

138 a noble vision  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:09:46am

Just an update on the IBM Executive from a typewriter afficionado

The IBM Executive typewriter I found at a garage sale was magnificent, and (having been long since replaced by the Selectric), dirt cheap. Only somebody with a PhD in secretarial skills could operate it. It was a proportional spacing machine: an 'm' was five spaces wide, an 'i' was two. There were two separate space bars (two and three spaces respectively). To correct a mistake, you had to know the width of all the characters involved so that you could backspace the appropriate amount (backspace was the only single-space key on the machine). There was an arcane procedure for producing justified type which involved typing a page a first time (while using a special guide to measure where the lines ended), noting the extra spaces that needed to be added, marking the copy to show where two-width spaces would be replaced with three-width spaces (or, in the worst case, two two-width spaces), and typing the page a second time. Even loading the ribbon (it was one of the first carbon ribbon machines on the market) was a major challenge: its rimless reels would spill their contents at the slightest mishandling, and the thin (less than 1/2" wide) tape had to be threaded through bewildering series of slots, grooves, carriers, and guides. It was a machine only a fanatic could love, and I did. I made regular trips to Santa Barbara's IBM parts center, and spent hours with tweezers, probes, hooks, needle-nosed pliers and other fine tools, getting it working right.

These memos weren't made by an IBM Executive typewriter.

139 Yoniyon  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:10:47am

Let me ask you all this. Please answer. If these documents are forgeries, HOW DID THE WHITE HOUSE RELEASE ITS OWN COPIES OF THE MEMOS. HOW. HOW DOES THIS MAKE SENSE? Is the Bush white house purposefully releasing forged documents? If so, does this make you angry?

140 newscaper  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:11:20am

the "th" in question is NOT just raised to make the superscript, it is also smaller sized -- as in Word.

These may not be completely fabricated doucments, but modified ones.

I do note that the 7 in 187th appears to have a a bit of a descender, something Times New Roman does not have.

141 Right Wing Conspirator  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:12:36am

#123 zulubaby

Who the hell does this woman think she is?


Well, isn't it obvious. She is

Maria Teresa Thierstein Simoes-Ferreira Heinz Kerry.
142 jestep  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:14:25am

#134

"which were available in many fonts, including symbols for science and mathematics"

You can beleive what you want. Now, I wish it were true, but I believe it is right. However, my sister used to use a Selectric and she believes the th could not be done on it ;-)

143 newscaper  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:14:48am

Did those Selectrics with a the ball have a superscript "th" as part of the symbol set?

Even there, I could not see an ANG type wasting the effort to switch out the ball for some dumb memo.

144 William  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:14:51am
August 18, 1973 is Saturday, this person is very dedicated to type a "memo to file" on Saturday

LOL, I double-checked, you're right, it's a Saturday!
 

145 Right Wing Conspirator  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:15:23am

#139 Yoniyon

See Thom #137.

Or 'Hooked on Phonics' if that doesn't help.

146 JohnAnnArbor  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:15:49am

#144

But it's the National Guard, aka "Weekend Warriors."

147 Cato the Elder  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:18:47am

#20 BIG:

I worked on an IBM typesetter in 1978 that did proportional spacing. It looked like a Selectric on steroids.

Actually I saw one of those at my father's office at Johns Hopkins Hospital in 1973 or 1974. I remember asking him about it and he said it required special training to use it.

So even if there was such a thing two or three years earlier, the chances the ANG was using them for ordinary memos are minimal.

And, as others have pointed out, the clincher is the "th" in superscript. That may have been an option on the steriod-enhanced IBM Selectrics, but c'mon - your daily memo typist is really gonna bother with niceties like that.

This thing stinks to high heaven.

148 itellu3times  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:19:05am

As others have already posted, IBM's Executive typewriters could do proportional, I didn't know they went back to 1941, but I was pretty certain they were around before 1970. Also, it seems the Selectrics could do proportional also, I have a vague recollection that they charged an extra $100 for the honor, and this seems to go back to 1968 as well.

[Link: domino.research.ibm.com...]

I'll pass on the superscript. The low-quality image here makes it difficult to see if every instance of each letter is identical. There are probably some nice custom smudge fonts out there you can get to make it look sort of like something is typed with a ribbon.

But this font is NOT Microsoft's Times New Roman, this does look like a ribbon font, there are no very fine lines the way modern fonts look on screen and on paper.

Sorry, Charles, if it's a forgery, proving it is going to take more work. If they have original docs, it only takes a second to see if it as impact marks. Of course, there are still working typewriters around, so even then it could still be forged.

149 piglet  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:19:08am

It would be interesting to see the "original" typing papar used to have watermarks. If he made a copy at home, most likely he used carbon paper, which was often messy.


Am I the only one who has noticed that Sugar bear is still selling Post Golden Crisp, which was really called Post Sugar Crisp, hence Sugar Bear.

150 Bob Munck  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:19:19am

#144 William

The National Guard does most of its working on weekends.

151 kps  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:19:38am

#135 mcg -- No, it's not from a typewriter. No typewriter would use a typeface even remotely similar to Times New Roman, because the counters (the enclosed spaces) in letters like the lower case "e" are too small. Typewriters need faces with large counters and, overall, thorougly unsubtle features, to survive reproduction by a hammer slamming against an inked ribbon.

152 Peter Verkooijen  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:19:53am

#139 Yoniyon, who says they came from the White House? Can they prove it? Even if these docs came via the White House, they didn't originate at the WH. It would be bad if the WH itself was tricked by these documents, but understandable. Their strategy so far is to disclose every scrap of available file to prove they have nothing to hide.

153 ördög Johnson  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:20:49am

#80 justAnotherLurker

Proportional font is not necessarily kerned. You can also use an older version of a font that does not have kerning tables.

Nice try, but no cigar.

154 Lysander  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:21:10am

Well, just goes to prove that Complete Bull Sh*t couldn't find their backside with both hands, Lt Jeffin Kerry and Terry McAuliffe telling them where it was.

Lysander

155 Studsup  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:21:26am

According to the Globe article, CBS claims to have authenticated the documents by an authority in the field and the White House is not denying the authenticity of them.

If they were forgeries why would the White House refuse to question them?

156 JohnAnnArbor  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:24:12am

#155--

Doubt the WHouse has a forensic typwriting analyst on staff.

157 maximus  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:24:14am

Furious J

Ok, my memory is slipping - Its been 20 yrs

I just called the the old Unit - Found them via the yellow pages and its the 803rd General Supply Company located in Opelika Alabama attached to the 111th Ordinace Group.

Feeling pretty foolish right now.

158 B~C  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:26:44am

Why doesn't someone try and duplicate these on Word or WordPerfect and detail the font and size they used? If everyone can create their own 1972 National Guard records at home, it makes it much clearer that these aren't worth the paper they're forged on.

159 kps  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:27:30am

#148 - itellu3time

"But this font is NOT Microsoft's Times New Roman"


What evidence do you offer for that? I'd put money on it, not merely not having been produced on a typewriter, but being Times New Roman specifically.

160 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:28:48am
161 William  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:29:01am
You guys are too skeptical. I looked around for 5 minutes and found government memoranda from 1975 that are proportionally spaced.

Thanks for the link, did you see the document from 1973?

Subject: *EXECUTIONS IN CHILE
Date: 11-20-1973 To: SECRETARY From: LORD, WINSTON
[Link: foia.state.gov...]

It has monospace font and no superscript "th"...

So we have:
      - Proportional spaced font
      - Times Roman font
      - Superscript font
      - A "letter to file" written on a Saturday

How many ways can you say forgery?
 

162 Furious J  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:29:35am

To sum up:

1.) The media has uncovered documentation that appears to support a longstanding anti-Bush meme questioning his service in the military.

2.) The White House, which knows the media is unfriendly, has not claimed that the documents are forged.

3.) The documents display font characteristics (propotional spacing, superscripting, kerning) that are common in contemporary word-processing, but were rare prior to the 1990's.

4.) Some very high-end models of IBM typewriters may have been able to create these effects in the time period in question.

4a.) It is a matter of dispute whether an Air National Guard unit would have used such expensive equipment during the period since military office equipment tends to lag behind, often by decades.

4b.) Others have suggested that the model required for these effects would have been extremely difficult to use.

Is that pretty much the summary of the thread so far?

163 The Monster  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:29:48am

Back in the 70s I had (it's still in a closet, actually) a really cool Coronamatic that did both horizontal and vertical half-spacing, which was really handy for doing sub- and super-scripts in math and scientific formulae. The superscript would still be full size, however.

All the idiots had to do was select Courier New instead of Times New Roman...

164 William  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:29:52am

Forgot to add "Smart Quotes" found in MS Word...

165 Spiny Norman  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:30:30am

#155 Studsup

CBS claims to have authenticated the documents by an authority in the field and the White House is not denying the authenticity of them.

The White House has not been quoted making ANY comment on this. I suspect they were never even asked. Typical.

166 Bucky Katt  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:30:50am

These "memos" were not released by the White House. They *allegedly* came from LTCOL Killian's personal files.

From the mouth of CBS:

But 60 Minutes has obtained a number of documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file. Among them, a never-before-seen memorandum from May 1972, where Killian writes that Lt. Bush called him to talk about "how he can get out of coming to drill from now through November."

I see that the Dems are still carrying on their long tradition of manipulating the dead.

167 gbl  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:31:13am

Okay, first of all I'm a big fan of CSI. I do find it interesting that these memos show up now and have enjoyed the comments regarding the typewrite, fonts and spacing. But as one who believes in nice clean copies its not so much the memos that I find interesting but the copier used to reproduce these documents. Imperfections on the copier drums are like finger prints and we all have noticed that when they happen they happen in the same place on the document. I just printed out four PDF memos: (I have perfectly clean printer drums)

04 May 1972
19 May 1972
01 August 1972
18 August 1973

First of all I've never seen "speck" patterns like this on any copied document.

Secondly the only regular pattern that shows up is on the 04 May 1972 and 18 August 1973. The two memos in the middle of the timeline don't have this pattern so one would assume the drum was cleaned at some point in time. The blemish is a top to bottom line of dots exactly the same distance from the left margin. This you would expect from a copier. However the sequence of dots should be exact (remember the same flaw would copy EXACTLY the same on all following copies). There not exact!

And finally these specks look more like they were physically added, like with a pencil or pen. Some of the larger specks if you look carefully trace from a 7 to 1 o'clock position and not the normal 6 to 12 that a copier would make.

168 kstagger  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:32:30am

see Charles new entry...

169 CC Señor  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:32:46am

#12 JohnAnnArbor

What's the etymology of CYA?

I recall CYA being used, but PYA seemed to be more popular. What I find curious is the use of "Memo to File" because MFR (Memorandum for Record) was the commonly used phrase. May be just a matter of style, but still curious.

170 Geepers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:33:35am

piglet,

Am I the only one who has noticed that Sugar bear is still selling Post Golden Crisp, which was really called Post Sugar Crisp, hence Sugar Bear.

Hell No! And let me assure you Post™ has gotten a couple of nasty letters about it.

Please note about the the above used ™; while it is entirely possible that I typed it out on an IBM Executive (with a specially made font) and then scanned it, then faxed to Charles who digitized it and then inserted a tiny .gif into my post, I in fact, as hard as this is to believe, used an ISO name code.

171 ördög Johnson  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:37:58am

Also there are 'fl' and 'ti' ligatures present. Except typesetting machines, that feature was not appearing in DTP systems until late 80's.

172 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:38:12am

The content of the documents stick pretty closely to the DNC talking points:

"...fill this billet with a more seasoned pilot from the list of qualified Vietnam pilots that have rotated."

"...get out of coming to drill..."

etc.

173 zombie  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:38:56am

I've got a slow-loading connection today (I'm browsing LGF using my old Remington!) so I haven't read every comment, but I will say this: These memos are being referred to as totally authentic all over the media. I haven't seen the slightest peep that their authenticity is being doubted. If it is true that they are forged (and they sure as hell looked forged to me -- I mean, c'mon, just look at them for two seconds) this needs to get out ASAP. I've already read many headlines to the effect of "Superior 'Sugar-Coats' Bush's Deeds," etc. A lie will travel around the word seven times before the truth puts its pants on. It's ACTION time!

174 William  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:39:40am
The Selectric II had a lever (above the right platen knob) that would allow the platen to be turned freely but return to the same vertical line (for inserting such symbols as subscripts and superscripts),

More grasping at straws.  Did it also have a way to reduce the size of the metal characters for superscript, as is the case with this forged memo?
 

175 Peter Verkooijen  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:40:52am
...a number of documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file

Wow, that's incredibly weak wording! CBS doesn't even know where these documents come from. They were told...

176 BPP  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:42:13am

This is a fascinating issue. I'm not a Bush supporter but this looks pretty bad. I can remember quite distinctly seeing Times font printed out for the first time and thinking Wow this is so cool. That was around 1987, right when I was graduating from college and typing up my resume. It does seem highly unlikely that a standard typewriter in 1973 could produce a document that looked like that. It also seems unlikely in the extreme that anyone would use a typesetting machine for a routine memo. I conclude the following:

1. If it does prove to be forgery, the forger was a fool.
2. CBS News, full of old-time reporters and editors, proofreaders and designers are also fools. Nobody raised a red flag about this issue?
3. Handwriting analysts are fools. I thought the credibility of that idea was shot for good after the Hitler diary forgeries back in the 80's. How can anyone take them seriously any more?

Finally, there are Kerry partisans. They may be motivated by revenge in playing this up but if so they're fools as well. Here's the analysis from the New Republic:

It's become a cliché by this point, but the logic obviously hasn't sunk in, so here goes: People have already made up their minds about the president's character, particularly as it relates to military service. They think he found a not-quite-honorable, not-entirely-dishonorable way of avoiding combat in Vietnam, and, for the most part, they don't think that disqualifies him to be president. Short of a pretty big smoking gun (something on the order of, say, evidence Bush bought his way into the Texas Air National Guard), that's the way they're going to feel on Election Day, too--regardless of what dribs and drabs leak out between now and then. As a result, any day in which Bush's National Guard service is the dominant news story is a lost day for the Kerry campaign, since it's a day Kerry can't talk about the things that can improve his chances of winning, like Bush's attrocious record in office. (Which, for whatever reason, voters still don't know nearly enough about.)

Even if you disagree with the line about Bush's atrocious record (clearly a lot of people don't think it's that atrocious), this makes sense as political logic. Once again I think we see liberals and Democrats shooting themselves in the foot.

177 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:42:49am
178 a noble vision  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:49:08am

#155 Studsup 9/9/2004 10:21AM PST

If they were forgeries why would the White House refuse to question them?

Because the WH realizes this whole ploy is a trap to go back to old news that was already dismissed by the electorate in 2000. Why waste network TV bandwidth on this when the Swifties have more to say about communist-sympathizing, French-pleasing, terrorist-appeasing, vet-smearing JEffing Kerry?

179 RedWhiteAndJew  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:50:50am

I transcribed the first paragraph of the memo, using Word 2003 SP1. The font used was the default, Times New Roman. Margins are 1" left and right on 8 1/2"x11" paper.

The relative positions of adjacent letters on different lines is identical to the "memo" .pdf, with one small exception. In the "memo," the the phrase "Austin is not happy" line breaks after the "is." On my PC, the break is after the "not." Changing the right margin to 1.03" results in a Word document with the same appearance, WRT to relative letter spacing and placement, as the "memo." I think this small difference can be attributed to difference in the target printer from my installation, and that of whoever made this "memo."

IOW...

[p/o]wned!

180 Partisan  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:52:14am

Every big media website has stories based on these memos. ABC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN, FOXnews, New York Times, LATimes, USA Today, Washington Post, SF Chronicle.

Wow.

Not one of them bothered to doublecheck the primary source documents.

The pdf's in the msnbc story show the date/time and number called for the cbs news fax:

[Link: msnbcmedia.msn.com...]

09/07/2004 09:51 12129751998

Wonder if any laws were broken here?

181 punk boy  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:53:42am

I think it is going to take some work but these will likely be shown to be forgeries.

First step is to locate documents originating from same source and location and compare them. Most typewriters develop a signature and most likely the typewriter that was used for this had one. A cursorry inspection shows no signature (which usually means computer generated). A look at the two dozen pieces of paperwork I have from the military reveals signatures.

Sadly, someone is going to have to waste time showing them to be forgeries. It would be really nice to see who developed these.

One would think they would just go buy an old typewriter and type it up - but then paper ageing is an issue.

Of course, the original would be nice, though I imagine that 'nothing but copies remain.'

Time will tell.

182 Herbie  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:54:38am

IBM made a proportional width typewriter in 1941. I wouldn't be surprised if it had a "th" too.
Neither Bush's nor Kerry's service record has anything to do with thie upcoming election.

183 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:01:22am
184 CeeJ  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:01:38am

Hi LGFers... long time lurker, first time poster...

What I also find interesting is how the words land on the page.

If I type the memo out in MS Word using their standard defaults (fonts, margins, etc.) I get the same layout off every word. That is, every line ends with the same word as in the "original document."

I find it highly suspect that a typewriter from the 1970s has the same margins and type size as a 2004 word processor (though I admit it is possible). Especially since word-wrap wasn't possible. Instead, you usually heard a "ding" warning you that you were near the end of the line. I find it odd that the memo writer hits "return" the same way MS Word does.

Or maybe it's just me....

185 locutus  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:01:38am

Try this, I did:

1.) Fire up MS Word, and using Times New Roman 12pt. font, type some of the text from one of the memos

2.) Make a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, etc. (I did a 5th generation copy)

3.) See how closely they match, splotch marks and all.

4.) Hold your nose, because something stinks now, doesn't it?

186 iceman  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:21:15am

freeper thread here

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]


i dont know much about fonts etc but the people who called that the line,

"not happy today either"

on the 18 August memo

as a drop in are correct, just blow up the pdf and compare the letters to those in the paragraph above, they are all different

also

look at the date on the top and compare it with the 187th below

same number but they look different,

the relationship between the 1 and 8 are different, the 8 flys above the 1 on the date and is exactely lined up with the 1 on the 187th.

also the 7 on the date is different than the 7 on the 187th

forgery, a good possibility

woooo eeey someone is going to have a red hinney.

187 M. Simon  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:25:22am

A linguistic examination by the FBI Laboratory compared the typewritten communiques associated with the bombings to documents known to have been authored by a prime suspect in the case. (Traditional document examination determined that the communiques and the documents were prepared on the same typewriter.)

[Link: www.findarticles.com...]

1932 Typewriter Standards File created.

(history of FBI Labs.)

[Link: www.fas.org...]

He forged a life by spotting frauds

Donald Doud of Elm Grove is a forensic document examiner whose work included preparing these exhibits of typewriter analysis for the Alger Hiss spy case.....(Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, 11 Mar 01)


[Link: www.cicentre.com...]

I got the above by googling:

--- FBI typewriter analysis ----

-

188 zumkopf  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:26:24am

I'm not a big conspiracy buff, but in addition to what others noted (those dot patterns, for example: I never saw so many on any copy, from that era or any other; and shouldn't the May '72 patterns match?), a few other things struck me as odd:

1) the military usually abbreviates dates. "01 August 1972" would be rendered 01AUG72.

2) Same memo: who is "Harris"? No rank given. Odd in an official document.

3) 19 May 1972 header: "Bush, 1st LT Bush"? Sounds normal in a movie script -- "Bond, James Bond" -- but odd on a military memo. It would be "Bush, 1LT" or "1LT Bush".

4) same doc: "memo to file"? What file? Not MilParlance.

5) Ref to pt. 3, Killian would more commonly have put his rank (in abbreviated "LTC" form) on the same line as his typewritten signature line. Equally odd is the absence of his identification of his position, e.g. "CDR, 111th F.I.S., TexANG" or something like that.

6) 01AUG72 memo, lines 1 and 2: verbal orders? Suspending someone from duty? Not done. Especially over the phone (point 2)? And how does point 2 ("I conveyed...request for orders of suspension") square with point 1 ("I ordered [Bush] be suspended from flight status")?

7) Does anyone else with military experience find it odd that the 04MAY72 "memo" would say, verbatim, "not later than (NLT)"? I never had anyone explain "NLT" to me. Hell, they rarely explained anything to me...

8) Post office box as sending address for a military unit? And P.O.B. "34567"? Why not "CDEFG"? An amazing coincidence? A lazy forger? An inside joke? Does anybody know the address of the 111th?

I'd be interested to see exactly what the White House released. Because the CBS scoop smells mighty "Hitler Diary-ish" to me.

189 hcq  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:28:33am

I'm not familiar with military procedure. Would it have been typical for a former officer such as LTC Killian to keep memos such as these in his "personal files"?

I'm not sure that even in private life, a manager who had either retired from or left a business would keep such paperwork.


Some years back a painting by a Famous Artist was offered for sale. When some of us pointed out some holes in the seller's story, he suddenly produced an extensive "authentication" written by a leading expert on that artist. The expert was dead, but it was not hard to see that the writing style of the "authentication" letter was very different from the expert's other published correspondence. The expert's daughter was notified, and his estate's attorneys moved pretty fast. (Tons of fun.)

So it would also be interesting to compare other, contemporaneous memos produced by Killian for both writing style and typeface. Where could such paperwork be found?

190 M. Simon  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:31:24am

The WH released the "new" documents as soon as it got them.

How did the "new" documents get into the system?

191 Renna  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:31:29am

Dual stories that both Bush and Kerry are having their military records attacked.

First they dedicate 24 paragraphs to questioning Bush's record, and then if any readers are still with them, there are 4 at the end noting a documentary is coming out about POWs mistreated with/because of Kerry's testimony.
Link

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Ya think?

192 a noble vision  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:48:05am

Now on DRUDGE: Documents might be fake!

193 papijoe  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:49:38am

Charles your hit counter for today seems to have re-set.

That's weird.

194 Renna  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:51:44am

Top ten signs the Killian memos are faked:

10) References to Who Shot J.R.

9) Signature in glitter ink with hearts over the "i"s.

8) Complaint that Bush "totally dissed us".

7) Microprinting in the word "SUBJECT" repeats "this memo is a fake...this memo is a fake.."

6) No red and blue little threads or hologram of Ben Franklin.

5) The shadow under his nose doesn't line up with the direction of the sun.

4) Zip code had the "plus four."

3) Hypothesizes Bush missed physical because he was watching "Sex and the City."

2) Can't think of a good number 2

and 1) 60 minutes thinks they're real.

195 Gretchen  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:57:19am

Just like in Vietnam, Kerry keeps self-inflicting his own wounds!

197 Geepers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 10:02:13am

Hey everybody do you know the TRUTH?

[cue scary music]

2004-09-09 12:09:38 PM pstudent12


Attention Moderators

Linking to "little green footballs" is like linking
to the "national alliance" for insightful commentary
on the news. Both are racist and fascist organizations,

"little green footballs" being a mossad/jewish-terrorist
supporting one and the "alliance" being a neo-nazi one.

198 Geepers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 10:05:54am

Renna (#194),

LOL! Bravo.

199 tachyonshuggy  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 10:29:36am

They're missing the coffee-cup stain on the upper-right.

200 steve miller  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 10:51:18am

The Documents are from CBS to the White House.

201 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 11:00:42am

wow in hour the bloggers change the momentum on an issue

could not do that in 72 ethier

202 pionar  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 11:06:11am

Well, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but IBM introduced proportional-spacing typewriters in 1941.

That's 31, count'em, 31 years before this memo was typed. IBM said that their type made typed pages appear printed. This feature became a staple in the Executive Series of typewriters, which I'm sure the Texas ANG could afford.

Wow, is Free Republic now going to take back their remarks? I doubt it.

203 Ray against the Machine  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 11:22:41am

pionar:

how does the proportional width of the executive disqualify the subscript with a different glyph sizing found in these documents? Additionally, how does it discount the work Charles has done to reproduce exactly (with MSWord defaults) the memorandums? Also, where are the boiler plate headers on these documents? They are military docs and one would think they would have a certain 'official' look to them, wouldn't one?


/the mad parade has now begun
listen to the engines hum
people out there grab your guns
loonies on my left
lizards on my right.......

204 pionar  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 11:27:42am

correction, 32 years.

And the superscript th thing, there are many typewriters that could do this. IBM Selectric typewriters had "golfballs" that could be changed. Some of the golfballs had superscript type on them.

Selectric info comes from my great aunt, a secretary for a paper company back in the day.

205 Sean  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 11:28:14am

Weak, pionar, Weak! Go back to DU. The ship is sinking.

206 ErnieG  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 11:30:35am

The exidence continues to pour in. Jim Treacher found this one.

207 kps  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 11:42:31am

#202/204 pionar - The proportionally-spacing IBM Executive did not provide changeable typefaces (it used fixed type hammers, like most older typewriters) and its typeface looks nothing like Times New Roman. Please try to keep up.

208 zulubaby  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 12:15:11pm

Geepers (#197)

Where is that from?

209 Geepers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 12:39:41pm

zulubaby (#208),

He covered a lot of ground huh? It's from the first FARK comment link.

And one from the new FARK thread "debunking" the forgery:

2004-09-09 02:19:27 PM lssix

Wow, most those guys at LGF are very intellectually challenged. I feel sorry for them. :^)

Not CAM. CAM bright like sun.

210 Geepers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:18:46pm

Interesting comment from one of the FARKers:

2004-09-09 05:19:38 PM The Urge


Are you tired of arguing on your date with a liberal?

Do you get sick of hearing your boyfriend or girlfriend bash President Bush?

Now there is hope!

Join the ConservativeMatch.com community and find thousands of conservative singles just like you. dude its all you: [Link: www.conservativematch.com...] _please150x200


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

the web address should be ~www.NoBlackPeople.com or ~www.FatRichWhitePeople.com

or ~www.SpoiledKids.com

211 Abacquer  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:36:45pm

Okay guys, I'm a liberal democrat and staunchly for Kerry, and even I can see that this is Times New Roman. This throws the veracity of these documents into doubt. Maybe Killian retyped them for some reason later in life using a word processor, but the image of the document begin shown on the CBS website could not have been put to paper in 1972 unless Times New Roman existed in 1972, with a typewriter or word processor that produced it. Whether or not there was one, I cannot say.

All I can say with certainty is that is Times New Roman. I retyped one of the memos myself in Times New Roman, took a screenshot, enlarged and rotated it and superimposed it over the "memo" image using Photoshop. It was, within an acceptable degree of error, a perfect match. That should not have happened if the memo font was not TNR.

Try it yourself.

So there are reasons to question these documents. But there are so many failings in Bush, one hardly needs these documents to decide to vote against him.

Whateva. Get out there and vote for the man you believe is right for the job on election day.

212 JoyceNSeattle  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:26:44pm

I was a secretary in the 60's and 70's and used an IBM Executive typewriter. This was the electric typewriter that had the different sized letters. I used to do justified right hand margin typing, so I know that proportional letters were available. But I also know that those typewriters did not have the capability to do the "th" in a superscript (raised and reduced font). Every lower case "t" in the document would have been the same size. Same with the "h."

The document in question could not have been typed in the 70's.

213 zulubaby  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:28:00pm
So there are reasons to question these documents. But there are so many failings in Bush, one hardly needs these documents to decide to vote against him.

Thank you for participating in my snap survey.

Besides that, I'd say this is a huge embarrassment for Kerry, and evidence of just how desperate the dems are. That they're sleazy is a given.

214 the lizard  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:06:45pm

First time poster guys...

I did a little enlargement on the first Memorandum supposedly ordering Bush to take a physical (May 4).

Enlarge on the blacked out area presumably to be Bush's address at the time, or SS#. You can see through the black mark, the address listed is:

"5000 LONGMONT #8"

Anyone familiar with the Houston area? What is this location? All I know plugging it in to Mapquest is the zip code on the "Memo" is wrong...the actual zip code for that area is 77056 not 77027.

Could be a piece in the puzzle.

~Liz

215 the lizard  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:07:38pm

First time poster guys...

I did a little enlargement on the first Memorandum supposedly ordering Bush to take a physical (May 4).

Enlarge on the blacked out area presumably to be Bush's address at the time, or SS#. You can see through the black mark, the address listed is:

"5000 LONGMONT #8"

Anyone familiar with the Houston area? What is this location? All I know plugging it in to Mapquest is the zip code on the "Memo" is wrong...the actual zip code for that area is 77056 not 77027.

Could be a piece in the puzzle.

~Liz

216 the lizard  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:08:32pm

eep, sorry for the double post.

217 shoho  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:00:13pm

Open MS Word, type the memo by hand in Times New Roman, set the right margins, and you'll find that it doesn't line up the same way as in the memo.

I tried every proportional serif font on my computer, and none of them came out with the correct proportions or word wrap. Also, some of the characters in the fonts, particularly the superscript "th" that people keep pointing out, simply don't have the correct appearance in the Windows fonts available to me.

Now, I don't have access to any of these 1941-1973 proportional typewriters to compare their fonts, and I don't have every single Windows font. But I couldn't make an identical copy of the memos using the fonts readily at hand.

218 ibu guru  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:09:46pm

IBM Selectric typewriters came into common use in offices in the second half of the 1970's. While there was a Times Roman golfball, the hot font was Courier. Standard electric typewriters still only came in pica (10 charaters per inch) or elite (12 characters per inch). Times Roman did not become commonly used until word processing software.

No superscripts until the late 1980's -- even early word processing programs like Perfect Writer (for CPM-based computers) and the earliest editions of WordPerfect (the first I used was version 4.1 around 1986/7) didn't do superscripts.

The first I heard the acronym "CYA" was also not before mid-1980's. Come to think of it, "memo to file" was not a phrase I ever heard before mid-80's or later.

There's no way this document was produced in 1973. Lack of military stationery/form, the typewriters available and generally used then, lack of typos/type-overs (which practically everyone but the most accurate of typists did, especially if not working off a draft -- but I can't imagine anybody writing a draft of a "memo to file" then typing it perfectly), the blurs caused by multiple photocopying (this obviously cannot be an original, the blurs don't look right for a carbon copy, and carbons were most commonly used in the early 1970's -- few had copying machines) ... all lead to extreme suspicions of forgery.

How convenient the purported "author" is dead.

Donald Segretti and his cronies called it "ratfucking." Did Kerry train with Segretti & company when he got back from Nam?

219 Thom  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 4:37:39am

#217 shoho

LOL. Then you are obviously incompetent. Charles did it, I did it, and the news channels/papers are reporting that experts have done it.

Incompetence is not really a defense I would recommend advancing ...

220 John Tiller  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 8:35:19am

The dems deserve to suffer for this. They should lose the White House and a bunch of congressional seats. To paraphrase Shakespere "they are so hungry they will eat bugs".
CBS deserves some blame here as well. I guess they will put Dan Rather on Larry King again telling how 9/11 moves him to tears again. A true American.

221 Luke-John  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 10:17:53am

I think the whole forged papers thing is a conspiracy by the Clintons:

JFKerry is turning to Slick Willy for help...

Hillary wants to run in 2008...

Billy Boy owes Hillary big time for not Bobbiting him over Genifer, Paula, Monica,....

The Clintons are sneaky, devious, clever....

If I were Johnny K. I wouldn't trust a single WORD of advice from Billy C.!

222 icerat  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 11:04:03am

No idea if they are forgeries or not, but I can recall using a typewriter around 74/75 that *definitely* did superscript and was obviously quite a few years old by then. It wasn't an IBM or even electric. I recall it also had "curly" quotes as well, no idea what font it had, it wasn't changeable though.

Seems to me there's been one or two experts say that the superscript didn't exist back then and now its just being repeated everywhere. Too many things on the net appear once then get repeated 1000 times, and then people think since they read it in 1000 places it must be true!

223 Holly  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 11:55:24am

Certainly this is not scientific proof, but out of curiousity I typed the contents of the memo that appears as page three of the CBS PDF into Microsoft Word. I didn't change any settings, I used exactly the typeface and margins that Word defaults to. I'm using Word 2004 for a Mac.

And, gee, it looks exactly the same. Each line break ends with exactly the same word and in exactly the same distance from the margin. I find it very hard to believe the CBS memo was produced 30 plus years ago.

Here's a PDF of the document I typed on my Mac today.

224 mean Gene  Sat, Sep 11, 2004 1:28:11pm

#188

The Bush documents found here:

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

(see page 1 of 26)


Show that very same address and zip.

So I think we should drop that part of the argument.

225 Maria  Sun, Sep 12, 2004 6:15:30pm

You know what's funny is that the left is always saying that Fox news is biased.

When this proves that CBS, The Boston Globe, and other news media is really the ones who are biased.

They are so biased they accept phoney documents without first checking. CBS WANTED these memos to be true so they could be attack dogs for the left.

Like Johnny Cochran said "There was a rush to judgement" and it exposed CBS and the Globe as what they really are. Maybe Stuart Smalley Al Franken can revise his attack book on Fox about who is the REAL 'Liars'.

But then again he is a fat lair also.

226 Evilscott  Mon, Sep 13, 2004 7:50:29am

Retired Army Col. Gerald A. Lechliter wrote these fake memos. He's had a thing against the Bush family for a long time.


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