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Forged Documents: Topic Two

Thu, Sep 9, 2004 at 3:13:56 pm PDT

Our traffic is through the roof, as a result of links from Fark.com and The Corner, and now WorldNetDaily and many other sites—and LGF is slowing down and even timing out for many people when they try to get into the topic for the possibly forged Bush National Guard documents.

So here’s another topic to handle more comments on the issue.

And for reference, here’s my image where the original PDF document from the CBS News site is overlaid on my Microsoft Word document, showing the exact match of line spacing, character spacing, and character forms:

UPDATE at 9/9/04 3:58:25 pm:

For verification purposes, and to show that I played no tricks with spacing or margins, here is the Microsoft Word document that I created.

UPDATE at 9/9/04 4:33:11 pm:

Since several people have commented on the one noticeable mismatch—the slightly lower “th” in “187th”—I should point out that this difference goes away when the Word document linked above is printed. My screenshot shows the screen display in Microsoft Word, compared to the printed document from CBS News. When you print my Word document, the superscript “th” exactly matches the CBS News document.

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362 comments

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1 Artisticulated  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:16:52pm

Hugh be hammerin' he just cut into Fox News!!!!

Huge :-)

2 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:17:09pm

Question -- how do we force CBS to address this????


First?

3 ibrodsky  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:18:17pm

The left has always believed the ends justify the means.

4 Artisticulated  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:18:20pm

Sorry bucko ;-)

Be nice to watch Danny boy eat crow eh?

5 ibrodsky  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:20:29pm

How about an email campaign. HonestReporting has managed to get some results that way. Don't rule out the possibility that CNN would like to stick it to CBS.

6 The Monster  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:21:04pm

I just heard a talk jock take ONE call on the forgery issue. He erected the straw man of 'proportional', found the reference that IBM was selling proportional typewriters in the '40s, and declared the issue closed.

The words 'Times New Roman' were never uttered.

7 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:21:13pm

# 4 As

That's why I have the "?" there!
:-)

Seriously, how do we get the word out? This is bigger than the Tailwind fiasco, but that took weeks to unravel -- this needs to be illuminated **now**!

8 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:21:15pm

Alright Brit ... don't blow it!

9 plo0ome  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:21:25pm

how do you recognize the overlay

I don't know what I am looking for

10 Artisticulated  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:21:26pm

Hugh Hewitt has big-time document examiner on radio.

11 zuckerlilly  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:22:19pm

Sorry for OT so soon, but I want you to know this:

Hello Charles, hello Everybody :

For two and a half years did I post in the online version of the German news Magazine "Der Spiegel" against Antisemitism, Antizionism and Anti-Amerikanism. LGF and its participants were always very helpful. Thank
you for that.

Yesterday I added to my posting in the Spiegel Online a link to a video of one of the LFG participants over the beheading of hostages by Islamists, in order to show the reality of Islamism.

This caused today the declaration, that I'm from now on "moderated". This happened in my case for the first time and without previous warning.

The SysOp of the Spiegel Online didn't have any problem with the fact, that I have been for weeks scolded and abused in this forum as a "Nazi Schlampe",
a "dirty sow" and "Salzburger sow" with full quote of my name and residence although I posted in this forum under a nickname. He intervened and deleted
these postings just as those posters called himself a "pig".

One of the participants, with the nickname "shual", who insulted me in this forum, tried even here - also unsuccessfully - to blame JP with scurrilous
contributions to collaborate with Antisemites, for publishing tourism advertisement from Austria. Not to mention the fact, that he constantly reviles LGF in the Spiegel Online as a "right-wing extremist Website" and
calls photos from LGF a "fake".

I read the "Der Spiegel" magazine since the age of 18. I want do so ever again, then I don't intent to identify myself with the terrorized opinionmaking and forced conformity (Gleichschaltung), which prevails in the
German media today.

Warmest regards

zuckerlilly

PS:

I believe, that a lot of humans could have been saved from death in the KZ´s, when pictures would have been shown, how they were annihilated.

Today we have the possibility to show how the humans are sufferng under radical islam und how they are killed. Today we have the chance to show the massacres and beheadings in the name of G~d by the islamists and we are not allowed to do it. I dont understand it.

12 Owl  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:25:19pm

I read on the first thread someone's suggestion to " send this thread to Drudge", so I clicked on drudge, scrolled down to the an. tip box, pasted this in, and whammo. In about ten minutes it appeared on drudge - which just goes to prove.......that someone did it before me. :) Oh well.
Anyway, EVEN THOUGH Matt goes on to link to Powerline(the rats ;) LOL ), it still made Drudge, so you can BET it will get BIGGER!


Cheaters never win.......


Go W GO!


owl

13 andthenblammo!  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:25:22pm

Geez, I just managed to get in, so if this has been addressed, please forgive; but, how likely is it that the PO box of the 111th Fighter Group is "34567", as shown on one of the "memos" "produced" by CBS "news"? At least they weren't in "Anytown, USA".

I think Rather and his mob are going to take it up the ol' starfish on this one. Yay!

14 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:25:24pm

He's blowing it.

Asshole.

15 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:25:40pm

The DU front is in convulsions right now over this.

The rank and file are, of course, calling all the evidence of these being forgeries as "bullsh*t." Their evidence? The tired lie that the forgeries came from the WH itself and were given to CBS. Nobody has yet pointed out that, in reality, the WH released copies of the memos sent to them by CBS.

However, there are some of the DUmmies who are actually taking a look at the evidence and expressing the possibility that there's some truth to the forgery charges. And, surprisingly (or not), they're coming to the same conclusion some of us are: These are purposely made fakes given to CBS by the WH in an attempt to discredit the MSM.

That is the DU update, from yours truly: Targetpractice. Don't forget to tip your waitress.

16 torog  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:26:23pm

also normally this would be a memo to the record not a memo to file

17 Owl  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:26:55pm

How is he blowing it? Help, I'm stuck at work with no TV!!!!


( See, this is why LGF needs a chatroom. :) )

owl

18 Mike  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:27:40pm

I've been following this all day on Powerline. Absolutely un-frickin'-believable.

You would think that with all of the big political foreheads working for the Kerry campaign right now, they could at least find a freakin' typewriter to compose their forged documents.

Now all we need is a front-page hit piece in the NYT and a nice little chart tying together Texans for Truth, MoveOn.org, the DNC, and the Kerry campaign. Yeah, I know. Quit dreaming.

Now that Drudge has linked to the story, who will be the first major media to break it - and thereby sink CBS news to "Dateline NBC" depths? The Washington Post might have a shot. It certainly won't be a New York or Boston paper.

Funny thing, the unashamed Kerry supporters in the press have openly longed for a "smoking gut" to turn this campaign on its head. This just might be it. Except this smoking gun is going to start the process of nailing the coffin lid on the old establishment media.

I guess the moral here is: be careful what you wish for.

19 Joshua (not a hamster) Scholar  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:29:03pm

Lehrer is whitewashing!

Lehrer has made a long segment out of the 60 segment - basically verbatum. Without once mentioning that the documents are likely frauds. In fact the wording used treats the memos as historical facts not allegations, puting words in the mouth of a deceased man.

20 Owl  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:30:27pm

You know, if it was released by the WH, then maybe they know something that the MSM and the dems do not....maybe they have iron-clad proof(beyond what's already been proven) that Bush served with honor, as he no doubt did. . .

just wondering...
man, it's a good day when the leftists get rattled!

21 Artisticulated  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:30:31pm

Hugh's document expert is being EXTRMELY careful not to jump to conclusions, but is leaning toward fake. I hope this is followed up so those fakers are nailed through the wall.

22 Geepers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:30:34pm

ploome,

how do you recognize the overlay

That's the problem. You can't recognize the overlay. Which means the two documents are identical.

If they differed, the overlay would illustrate the differences between the two quite obviously.

23 Gary of Carlsbad  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:32:38pm

Of course, its no surprise the CBS is biased, but its unbelievable that they try to pass themselves as neutral. I'm sure Chris Matthews is no more biased than Sean Hannity. What bugs me no end is that he's brought on Today and NBC on Sunday and presented as a neutral commentator. Have they no shame?

24 Claire  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:33:42pm

The Grapevine on Fox just now had a guy on- didn't catch his name- who went over all the points Charles is making about these memos about the "th" and all that.... Brit Hume said a Fox producer typed out the memo in MS Word and overlayed it to the original and it was basically identical, etc.... and now curious and waiting for CBS to make some kind of statement! Yeah!

Too bad they didn't acknowledge that they most likely got the idea from Charles, et al, though they did mention that the traffic on the internet about it was really high....

25 Globular Cluster  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:34:44pm

Boy there sure are a good number of LLL moonbats at fark.com.

I don't read Free Republic but I guess I'm a "Freeper".


Here's a guy who wants moderators to look into this:


Linking to "little green footballs" is like linking
to the "national alliance" for insightful commentary
on the news. Both are racist and fascist organizations,

"little green footballs" being a mossad/jewish-terrorist
supporting one and the "alliance" being a neo-nazi one.

26 Athos  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:34:46pm

So, what will be the CBS rationale? That a producer retyped them word for word in order to make the documents "easier to read" on TV?

Frankly, the DUmmies are just whinging because their side jsut caught their crank in their zipper from the rush to get ANYTHING out to counter the Swifties and the light being shone on Kerry's lies and embelishments.

Powerline also has an interesting update on the signatures of the CBS docs not coming close to matching the signatures that are on the record of being from Lt. Col. Killian.

On the reluctant heals of MSM to get on board with the Swift Boat Vets, and others correcting Kerry's claims in Vietnam and while in VVAW - there are going to be elements of the MSM media who will go after this like sharks smelling blood in order to retain even a small amount of credibility.

27 evariste  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:34:52pm

Geepers, LOL. Exactly. ploome, in the previous thread a guy named sevenne posted a pdf with the cbs version given a slightly reddish halo and 45% transparency, take a look at it.

28 FrankNH  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:35:25pm

Look for the ALL StAR PANEL on Hume's FOX show to be all over this in the next segment.

29 Ms. Andi  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:36:53pm

Good work Charles, the expert lizards and all the other bloggers.

OT

Evan Maloney has a new video out

Brainwashing 101

It's part of full length documentary he hopes to release in 05 if he gets the funding and distribution. So spread the word.

30 jdwill  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:37:00pm

Could they have been that stupid?

31 Glen Wishard  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:37:41pm

Proportional fonts in the pre-digital age: IBM Selectric Composer.

Because these typewriters had no memory buffers, to produce a proportional font you had to type everything twice. After the first entry the typewriter mechanically calculated the spacing, after which you had to type it again.

I'm dubious that even a short colonel in the Texas Air National Guard would use a machine that made him type everything twice, just so he could make really nice-looking memos.

32 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:38:04pm

When there is a serious possibility that the memo in question is a forgery, you don't start your segment by discussing them as if they were know to be legitimate, BRIT!

You deal with the forgery allegation first, THEN if they are found to be legit you discuss what they mean.

ASSHOLE.

My respect-o-meter for Brit Hume, previously reading very high is sagging rapidly.

33 Globular Cluster  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:38:25pm

Fark.com commentary:

[Link: forums.fark.com...]

Another money quote:

Wow, the New York Times, LA Times, CNN, Chicago Tribune, and Washington Post are the biased liberal media, but one random guy on a blog is worth listening to.
34 The Other Les  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:38:57pm

The webmaster came over to our side of the house to complain about the bandwith hoggage. We have a LAN hooked into a small business server in our side-by-side duplex.

Apparently, about fifty people were trying to download a 3Mb document at the same time.

Here's a smaller version of the document for comparison.

35 wincap10  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:38:57pm

More Evidence of the CBS News Killian Memo Forgeries: The Paper Size is Wrong

I commented early this morning on Powerline that 8 x 10.5 was the government paper size in 1972, and I just saw this again in Kerry Spot. Here is the background, from the American Forest and Paper Association:

"Not until World War I or shortly after was a standard paper size agreed to in the United States. Interestingly enough, within six months of each other, two different paper sizes were set as the standard; one for the government and one for the rest of us….

In 1921, the first director of the Bureau of the Budget established an interagency advisory group with the President’s approval called the Permanent Conference on Printing which established the 8″ x 10½” as the general U.S. government letterhead standard. This extended an earlier establishment made by the former President Hoover, the Secretary of Commerce at the time, who established the 8″ x 10½” as the standard letterhead size for his department….

Now, during the same year, a Committee on the Simplification of Paper Sizes consisting of printing industry representatives was appointed to work with the Bureau of Standards as part of Hoover’s program for the Elimination of Waste in Industry. This group came up with basic sizes for all types of printing and writing papers. The size for “letter” was a 17″ x 22″ sheet while the “legal” size was 17″ x 28″ sheet. The later known U.S. letter format was these sizes halved (8 ½” x 11″ and 8 ½” by 14″)….

Once these committees found out about each other a couple years later, they agreed to disagree until the early 1980’s when Reagan finally proclaimed that the 8.5″ x 11″ was the official standard sized paper."

Any military memorandum in 1973 would have been on 8 x 10 1/2, and the CBS memo’s clearly were not, showing once again the amateur nature of their forgery.

36 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:38:59pm

When there is a serious possibility that the memo in question is a forgery, you don't start your segment by discussing them as if they were know to be legitimate, BRIT!

You deal with the forgery allegation first, THEN if they are found to be legit you discuss what they mean.

ASSHOLE.

My respect-o-meter for Brit Hume, previously reading very high is sagging rapidly.

37 CheezNCrackers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:39:27pm

On days like these I am glad I hit the tip jar on a regular basis.

38 Cato the Elder  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:39:33pm

Are any MSM outlets dealing with this yet?

39 Artisticulated  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:39:38pm

Hugh's done with his expert and more than satisfied these are fake. He's askin for a crow dinner at CBS.

I love Hugh Hewitt, can you tell? He's an Ohioan. 'nuff said

40 Globular Cluster  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:41:18pm

Holy shit #1 story at WND!

:->>>

41 mpax  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:42:20pm

The local ABC news outlet in NYC was still pushing the story as if it's really a point against Bush. These dinosaurs don't realize how out of touch they are. They still think of news as something we wait to hear from them. They'll whisper the forgery story around 3AM.

42 levi from queens  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:42:21pm

FWIW-- I had a part-time job as janitor and trashman at the offices of the Joint Chiefs of staff in 71-72. The typewriters were pretty ordinary-- even a few manual ones. I also did the central offices of the Marine?? National Guard.

No way that a regional office would have had equipment capable of these effects. -- in fact they weren't easily available as late as 1985.

43 scaramouche  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:42:44pm

I wondered what the trouble was. I haven't been able to get LGF since late yesterday afternoon and beginning to get the D.T.s. Glad to know it was the uproar over forged documents and not that Charles had been obliterated by some Morlocks. (Actually, I was watching an old Buffy the Vampire Slayer last night, the one where Moloch the demon escapes from an old volume and jumps into the Web. It got me thinking that maybe Al Franken or Maureen Down had slipped the bounds of their books, like old Moloch, and done some serious damage to LGF.)

44 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:43:04pm

Sorry for the double post. I timed out the first time around, refreshed to make sure it hadn't gone though anyway, and reposted.

{sigh}

How much money are we talking to subsidize LGF moving to a server that can handle this traffic?

45 littleoldlady  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:43:40pm

I can't get into the other thread :-( so I don't know if it's been asked or mentioned there, but wasn't it CBS who did that spy/Israel/AIPAC (a/k/a blood libel) thing a couple of weeks ago?

There's 5000 people here?! (But only 2200 visitors all day?! Talk about your fuzzy math!)

46 Chris Allen  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:45:54pm

#13 andthenblammo!:

The current address for the 111th FW is here (the very first listing, in fact). I don't know if they used a PO box in the '70s, but they definitely don't now.

47 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:47:15pm

# 45 ld

Yes -- same network

I remember my dad harping on Dan "make up the news" Rather back during the Reagan years -- boy is he spot on today!
:-)

48 Artisticulated  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:47:37pm

#44 What Thom said

How much money are we talking to sub"sidize LGF moving to a server that can handle this traffic?"

Charles, how much you gonna need to cover these huge numbers? I'm finally in the tip jar. Sorry for the long freeload. I'm ashamed. :(

49 FreakyBoy  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:49:07pm

Charles:

If you don't fix the user counter, you're gonna' have to lower your ad rates.

50 scaramouche  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:49:38pm

How long do you think it will take Google News to cottono on to the fact that the letter is bogus? At the moment it is still linking to ABC News and others with the already discredited information.

51 SleepyInSeattle  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:49:40pm

Hi zuckerlilly, I recommend you become part of the Davids Medienkritik "community", you'll be very welcome there:

[Link: medienkritik.typepad.com...]

52 Geepers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:49:51pm

Has IBM ever produced a typewriter or font wheel that produced smart quotes (left and right curving single and double quotes)?

53 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:51:01pm

# 13 atb

Wha? Your luggage combination isn't 12345??

/"Spaceballs"

54 Globular Cluster  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:51:03pm

Note: Anybody with a fark.com account: please go here

[Link: forums.fark.com...]


and smack the moonbats around.


Bush isn't a pussy. It takes real balls to stand in front of the American people and the 'liberal' 'watchdog' 'Bush-hating' corporate press and lie to us that he's sending youn Americans to die in support of Halliburton's profit margin. Do you think you could do that? I don't think so.

This is the first time I've ever heard of "fark.com" and my impression is that it's pretty fuckin' gay.

55 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:51:10pm

#45 littleoldlady

Oho!

Right you are, Ken.

</MXC>

Seems like something is going on over there ...

56 littleoldlady  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:51:11pm

Hi FreakyBoy

I was just thinking the same thing! LOL! (But then, we would, wouldn't we? ;-)

57 Dr. Sanity  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:51:48pm

Regarding the "new" memo from Bush's CDR ordering him to report for his flight physical : I am a former NASA flight surgeon. I did physical exams on members of all the military services, including ANG. People report normally for a PEX (physical exam) by the last date of their birth month. Bush's birth month is July (DOB July 6, 1946). WHY WOULD HIS CDR ORDER HIM TO REPORT OVER 2 MONTHS EARLY FOR HIS ANNUAL PEX? Especially since we know that GWB was flying in April (he had 7 flight days according to the records).

If Bush was already aware that he would be going to Alabama--where they did not have the plane he was trained in and where the CDR of the Alabama unit had already told him they had too many pilots, but that he was "welcome" to come-- Bush would have allowed his flight status to lapse, since NO pilot willingly will permit a physician to do a PEX if he didn't have to.

OT - Zawahiri announces that the U.S. is on the "verge of defeat"

58 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:52:56pm

WELL! Brit just reported that Killian's son is questioning the memo - "No officer in his right mind would write such a memo."

OK, let me recal my meter...

59 Furthamathur  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:53:27pm

CBS is saying that it stands by the docments.. Time to nail 'em.

60 Frank IBC  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:53:34pm

I think the Democrats have just experienced the equivalent of one of the Palestinians' "workplace accidents".

Levi -

janitor

You're dating yourself! I haven't heard that word in ages. :)

61 PropMan  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:53:46pm

If I had to wager I'd bet that if the documents are faked, they were faked by someone deep inside the RNC KNOWING that they'd be found out thereby discrediting both CBS and the Democrats. Pure genius and pure evil. Any takers?

62 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:53:53pm

# 54 G C

IMO it's been a "college-party-time-we're-like-the-Onion-only-eve n-cooler-duuuuude!" site for some time ...

63 jhs  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:54:48pm

Sorry if this was posted before


CBS News denies
Bush docs forged
Experts suspect damning '70s memos created with modern word processor

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

64 ddd  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:55:02pm

The Kerry's can not even make a good forgery.

Just a thought it is ridiculous but maybe Hillary wanted to make certain John Kerry lost. I know it sounds stupid but if Kerry gets elected with Edwards it would be 16 years before Lady MacBeath gets on the ballot.

65 scaramouche  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:55:49pm

#61 PropMan

Riiiiight. Just like Israel was responsible for Beslan.

66 bluemerle  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:55:51pm

Proportional fonts is not the same as kerned lettering.
The memo has kerned lettering. No typewriter then or NOW can kern. But it's built in to most word processors.

67 Manco_Dollars  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:56:08pm

I hope the Dems get nailed to the cross on this one!

68 CheezNCrackers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:56:26pm
#55 Thom 9/9/2004 03:51PM PST

I drive my wife nuts with "Right you are Ken".

Hey! It comes on in a few hours. I'd better set the TV timer. :)

69 frankwolftown  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:57:10pm

Holy moly!!! They just talked about this on the Fox news Brit hume show!!!! Congrats! your on the map! :)

70 JohnAnnArbor  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:57:49pm

PO BOX 34567

HOUSTON TX  77234-4567


USPS site gives this zip+4 for the address on the letters.

Can't find address on-line for anyone.

71 PETN Sandwich  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:57:51pm

A thousand programmers banged on a thousand keyboards, a million lines of code later the most used word processor in the world is produced. Right out of the box it reproduces the 'fingerprint' of damning thirty year old papers produced by a typewriter that NO ONE has shown exists.

One bit of difference in any line of code and it wouldn't have happened... Simply incredible.

72 Katt  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:58:10pm

The moonbats at DU will be having a really bad day because Sharon Bush is contending that Pussy Kelley lied also. Is there an honest lefty antwhere?
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

73 PETN Sandwich  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:58:27pm

A thousand programmers banged on a thousand keyboards, a million lines of code later the most used word processor in the world is produced. Right out of the box it reproduces the 'fingerprint' of damning thirty year old papers produced by a typewriter that NO ONE has shown exists.

One bit of difference in any line of code and it wouldn't have happened... Simply incredible.

74 littleoldlady  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:58:39pm

#61 PropMan

Nah.

#55 Thom

Seems like something is going on over there ...

What ever is going on, I hope they get nailed before more people get hurt. They've gone beyond being irresponsible in their quest for ratings.

(Raining down in MD? We're getting a small dose of Frances up here.)

75 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:58:43pm

Hugh just mentioned Charles again ...

Like the J.F. Kerry waffle house shirts etc. there's a great "DNC transcription services" parody in here somewhere -- iowahawk, what up?
:-)
:-)

76 FreakyBoy  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 1:59:03pm

littleoldlady:

Hey there! Lots of rain up there?

Charles is going to need an audit of readership. And we know how those can be manipulated.

Springtime for Charles and the blogoshpere!

77 JohnAnnArbor  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:00:15pm

Contribute to LGF!!!

Let's help Charles out; today's skyrocketing web traffic no douby costs him time and money!

78 Frank IBC  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:00:38pm

More dreck from Sullivan:

FORGERIES? The pro-Bush blogosphere is claiming that they are obvious forgeries. I'm no expert in these matters and cannot tell if this analysis is sound...The blogs prove one thing, though. If these documents are legit, they are devastating to Bush.

/watching the horrible train wreck that Sullivan has become, so you don't have to

#61 PropMan -

Yes, the equivalent of the Israelis sending booby-trapped detonators to the Palestinians. Lots of interesting possibilities.

79 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:02:23pm

# 78 Frank

"watching the horrible train wreck that Sullivan has become, so you don't have to"

We deeply appreciate your service!
:-)

80 J.D.  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:04:23pm

So this is why LGF took so long to load.
Desperate times call for desperate measures.
It's no surprise that CBS The Dan stands behind this.

81 Yankee Yankee Zulu  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:04:27pm

#15 Targetpractice:

Not to worry. She was fair, nice, and gave me the best meal in weeks. Left a $50 bill and told her to keep the change.

So who's getting fooled here? CBS, who obviously can't keep its beak out of the controversy tent (see: Janet Jackson, Dan Rather, et. al.), or the Dems, who figure that "the vast right-wing conspiracy" did it?

Either way - if it's proved to be forged, this will prove two things: the Dems are super-desperate, and the MSM is largely not to be taken seriously anymore, for they operate more like a Soviet News Agency than anything else.

82 Manco_Dollars  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:04:53pm

I can't stand Sullivan for the last year since he became a one-note monkey on the gay thing.

83 littleoldlady  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:05:12pm

FreakyBoy,

Now you got me humming that song! (arg!)

Is there such a thing as a Standard Rate and Data for the blogosphere? (If not, think we could make a buck putting one together? ;-)

A little rain - not enough to water the tomatoes...

84 Frank IBC  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:05:15pm

On the subject of Kitty Kelly, not sure if anyone had mentioned this, but she had worked for the Washington Post about two decades ago, but she was fired after she was caught raiding senior management's trashcans.

85 chris_l  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:05:32pm

Some comments on this whole matter:

1. First off - let me join those offering kudos to Charles and to Powerline. Excellent work!

2. CBS will either stick by the documents or they will become the fiercest critics of those who tried to pull this ruse. My guess is that they will stick by the documents and thus lose whatever credibility they have left. This will cause their ratings to drop further (see CNN) and as ratings drop so will ad revenue. This will cause the stock to drop and thus cause a shake-up which may be a very good thing for the long run of the news organization.

3. Blogs will get no credit from the MSM - especially TV. It reminds me of Broadcast News where Aaron calls in information and it almost immediately gets on the air - to paraphrase "Amazing - I say it here and it comes out there."

4. Keeping Vietnam (whether Kerry or Bush's records) is a losing strategy for the Dems. I can't believe how badly the campaign is being run. Look for the Steve Pitkin story to be the next big thing (maybe CBS comes out gunning with it to get even for this latest foul play).

87 Manco_Dollars  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:06:26pm

MSM is Pravda.

88 Charles  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:07:25pm

FreakyBoy: I haven't been able to figure out what's causing the visitor count to get reset.

89 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:08:15pm

#61 PropMan

No taker here. Republicans don't need the shit this is causing.

#68 CheezNCrackers

Same here! LOL.

#71 PETN Sandwich

Great post. Really puts the coincedence in perspective ...

#74 littleoldlady

Haven't had too much rain here, mostly intermittent with a dark sky. Apparently there was a tornado somewhere nearby. If I wasn't lazy, I'd check

90 scaramouche  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:08:16pm

#84 Frank IBC

...she was caught raiding senior management's trashcans.

And has been slinging trash ever since.

91 Kina  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:08:59pm

When this thing implodes on them, as it should, they're dragging Kitty Kelly all over the Today Show for 3 days next week to scream that Bush snorted some lines (although his sister in law says she never spoke with Kelly).
I am sure Andrew will be all over that one like flypaper too. I don't know what happened to him. He used to seem thoughtful and insightful. Now he just sounds bitchy and premenstrual all the time.
He's off my favorites weeks ago.

92 Belize042  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:09:22pm

MSNBC headline still states:

Old memos bring new turbulence for Bush

The words "forged" or "forgery" appear nowhere in the story, but MSNBC does helpfully provide many quotes and opinions from prominent Democrats.

Does the MSM even know--or care--that they've become a laughingstock?

93 Artisticulated  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:10:39pm

#86 Buckaroo

Yup, saw that earlier. Question now is not who wins, but can Kerry carry more than six states?

94 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:10:59pm

Dan Rather should be fired.

-----
I tried to log on earlier and I bout' fell off my chair...
over 5,000 visitors! holy cow!

The new media rocks.

95 deadman  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:11:34pm

Update on Powerline check Update #10 Re Kerning. Upshot is that there is no way on Gd's green earth that these memos came off a typewriter. This will probably be the definitive evidence.

96 andthenblammo!  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:11:50pm

Whoa, now, here's an obviously legit document that proves Kerry was in Cambodia!

Read it and weep!

I'll just fax this to Dan Rather right away!

97 Artisticulated  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:12:30pm

#88 Charles

Does that mean there's no way for an actual tally today?

98 ch.speicher  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:12:38pm

MSM seems to have the same attitude towards the truth than the PA or the former Iraqi regime.

They have nothing to lose because their hardcore supporters couldn't care less when they are cheating.

In their eyes the 'dump' American majority deserves to be lied at, because these 'wackos' even consider to vote for W instead for their glorious Hanoi-John.

If they could have it entirely their ways they surely would prefer a ballout like the one Chavez got away with.

It's not that they didn't try to steal an election beforehand.

99 a noble vision  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:13:03pm

Hugh Hewitt has the forgery as the sole topic of his show today. Still no surfacing in the MSM anywhere--even FoxNews.

Draw up a chair, the fire's just getting warm.

100 big L  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:13:05pm

Looks like there is a sty in the CBS eye! Say wen does CBS licence come up? They better "Date-line"
an apology big-time or these issues should be placed in the file. Rather should be fired like Howell Raines of NYT if he had anything to do with it. Also sorry to hear that Jim Lehrer has jumped the shark.

101 Mardukhai  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:13:15pm

Typewriters didn't have superscripts!

They also didn't have variable width fonts, perfect soacing and kerning, and thick, fully formed type -- in those days, only hot lead Linotypes and room-size electronic typesetters did.

And there is NO WAY that two different software packages would produce precisely the same spacing and kerning until the standardizations forced by Windows and the Mac.

I am a real expert in this -- I was a professional typesetter in the 1970's. A letter of this kind required a $30,000 Mergenthaler VIP, Varitype, or Photon machine.

In 1973, there were only perhaps a thousand of these machines in operation -- anywhere. I know -- I had the first Mergenthaler VIP on the west coast!

By the way Roger Simon was a software customer of mine back in in the old days. One day, he came over to my office and I let him have it over his (then) leftist interpretation of the sixties!

We met up at AFI (Charles was there) a few months ago and laughed about it.

And the only output they produced was on long galleyies of six-inch wide photographic paper, which faded within months.

This is an outrage. CBS has some serious 'splainin to do.

By the way, they never retracted their infamous USS Liberty forgery.

People should start challenging CBS stations' licenses.

102 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:13:35pm

# 93 As

I'm concerned that BDS **still** gives Kerry 10+ states outright ...
:-(

103 Ann  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:13:55pm

#77 JohnAnnArbor:
My thought, too!
The regulars, at least, need to ante-up.

Um, and when will these people go away?
Unless they contribute, of course -:)

104 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:13:55pm

#78 Frank IBC

How do we know that Sullivan's jumped the shark? When the DUmmies agree with every word he says...

DU: Andrew Sullivan has (honest) updates on AWOL. "Devastating" to Bush

Most telling quote:

Sullivan made a fool of himself with his self loathing adulation of the Cons.

At last he's turning some of that on a more appropriate target.

105 Aaron's Rantblog  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:14:49pm

There really needs to be a demerit system where points for egregious media reporting can accumulate and force a shutdown for a day as punishment, with the punishment doubling for each subsequent breach. You can take points away for extended good reporting.

In Los Angeles, restaurants are OBLIGATED to post their health department grade outside so that it can be read from the street. A & B restaurants and C's, if they aren't corrected within a month, is a sign that a restaurant is going out of business.

Next, universities with Journalism schools receiving federal funds should have that spigot turned completely off if they cannot prove ideological affirmative action in the composition of their humanities departments. English departments are now, by and large, indoctrination departments. Proof here.

106 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:15:28pm

Ad rates on LGF: Going UP!

The forged docs fiasco has to rank right up there with 60 Minutes' Audi 5000 "sudden acceleration" and Dateline's exploding-Chevy-pickup-with-the-help-of-bottle-roc kets stories. The stuff of legends.

108 FrankNH  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:15:56pm

OT
ABC News has their latest poll out.
It looks devasting for Kerry.
Most issues seem to be double digit differences in favor of Bush.
Take a look here;
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]
Attributes
Issue Applies More to Bush Applies More to Kerry
Strong Leader ...................58% 31%
Clear Stand on Issues ........56 29
Appealing Personality .........53 31
Will Make Country Safer .....54 35
Honest and Trustworthy ......48 35
Vision for Future ................49 40
Shares Your Values ...........48 40
Understands Your Problems 44 43

109 Mardukhai  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:16:17pm

SORRY -- My last comment was somehow scrambled. The bit about Roger Simon was supposed to be at the end!

: - ((((

110 FreakyBoy  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:16:18pm

Charles:

FreakyBoy: I haven't been able to figure out what's causing the visitor count to get reset.

Maybe a revolution that helps truth get it's pants on faster?

111 EE  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:16:43pm

We have seen how easily this document could have been forged. Microsoft Word using default values.

Now it is the turn of those who claim that it was not forged. Let them show how the document could have been produced using the technology generally available at that time for writing memos.

Then the two theories can be compared: forged vs not forged.

Until the other side comes forward, there is only one plausible theory on the table. Let the other side come forward.

112 Globular Cluster  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:16:54pm
I can't stand Sullivan for the last year since he became a one-note monkey on the gay thing.

Yeah, Sullivan's turned into a peevish dumbass. He now hates everything Bush since the gay marriage thing -- where once he couldn't stop lauding everything Bush.

I once knew some annoyingly rabid fans of his, so I'm somewhat enjoying it.

113 Iron Fist  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:17:07pm

#78 Frank IBC,

Yeah, the worst thing about Sullivan is that he's willing to be the Democrat's bitch when they are against gay marriage too. Frankly :-), I was pro-gay marriage, but since Sully's gone off the deep end, I've been having to reconsider my position.

It certainly isn't worth the destruction of Western Civilization, and you can tell that Sullivan simply doesn't care. Bush (and roughly 60% of the population) are against it, so (in the immortal words of Kos :-), screw 'em. In three years he went from courageously warning us about the fifth column in the Left to being part of them (I'm being so harsh because Sullivan himself makes it pretty clear he thinks JF'nK would be a disaster in the WoT).

And it ain't like he's exactly rushed down to Massa-two-shits and gotten hitched to his significant other, is it?

Very disappointing.

114 Ms. Andi  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:18:37pm

#78 Frank IBC

I've been reading Sully for a long time but can no longer stand it. Has he ever admitted to being wrong? I still think he is a good writer, but good Lord, he is so unhinged these days.

Honestly, I wish he would take on you, V the K, or Throbert (or any other fine gay lizards-sorry for leaving folks out) on in an honest debate. Not to group any of you together, but I would like to see other gay independent, smart conservatives take him to task.

ok, rant over. Just tired of Sully. Clearly, he doesn't speak for any of you, and never did.

115 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:18:58pm
116 Artisticulated  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:18:59pm

#102 Buckaroo

After John Kerry, no one wll remember Adlai Stevenson.

117 Ice Kareem  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:19:02pm

Mark this date on your calendar and remember it the way you remember Neil Armstrong stepping on the moon. This is Bastille Day and the MSM are toast.

My apologies for any reference to France, but they did have a few tough guys back in Napoleon's day - long since burrowed to the core of the earth by spinning so fast in their graves.

118 Manco_Dollars  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:20:20pm

#113:

Sullivan is willing to allow us ALL go down in flames all because he wants to get married. So I say screw him

119 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:20:59pm

Question:

How does one contact the FCC to file a formal complaint?

Since we know that CBS will NEVER own up to this, I think a lawyer should be called, and CBS should be fined and made to apologize. CBS must not get away with this. Sure, people should be fired, but again we all know CBS won't own up.

120 hey19  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:21:02pm

I did a little test in MS Word.

When you type the letters "th" after any number except 1, 2, or 3, Word automatically changes the "th" to superscript.

Technology has caught the criminals.

121 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:22:21pm

# 116 As

I'd settle for Dukakis ...
:-)

122 section9  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:23:05pm

I literally have been unable to continue linking or reading Sully's stuff. He was so eager to jump on the bash-Bush bandwagon that he didn't stop to think that he might have been had.

That's what happens when your blog turns into a 24/7 appeal for the defeat of Bush the Homophobe.

I think we should pass the FMA just to piss off Sully. Then he might knock this crap off. His blog has become boring and predictable. Well-written, still. But anyone who raises an objection to judicial activism in the propogation of gay marriage is a Sturmabteilungen in Andrew's book.

His grasping at straws in the defense of this forgery is contemptible, at best.

123 andthenblammo!  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:23:12pm

#106 Ward Cleaver:

I was an auto mechanic when the "Audi 5000" story aired on CBS, and happened to watch it. Laughed my ass off at it. Shook my head, and said, "Who'd ever believe that load of crapola?" Two months later, you couldn't give an Audi 5000 away.

See? B.S.!, all right.

124 Captain Nemo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:24:22pm

>>#72 Katt>Is there an honest lefty anywhere?

125 NTropy  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:24:49pm

Interesting! No comments or threads on Kos, Yglesias or DU.

126 Jim in Virginia  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:25:13pm

NBC news tonight notes the four documents “that the White House obtained from CBS news” and says “a computer web site” ( they don’t know what a blog is) says the documents use typefaces that suggest they are forgeries, but the White House has not questioned their authenticity.
OK, admit it Charles- you really are an agent of the eeviiil Karl Rove, just like nodrog says. Rove set CBS up!
Seriously – terrific work, Charles. I can live with the dowwside- that it’s impossible to get on here now.

127 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:25:57pm

#31 Glen Wishard

Ah, but did the Composer offer superscript notation? I doubt it.

128 deadman  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:26:21pm

The absolute best part of the ABC/WaPo poll! Cheney outpolls Kerry on the Favorable/Unfavorable question. The First Lord of the Underworld is better received than a highly decorated Vietnam vet (who is also a Senator).

9/8/04 - Summary Table - Registered voters

Favorable Unfavorable No opinion
a. John Kerry 36 42 23
b. George W. Bush 51 39 11
c. Dick Cheney 43 37 20
d. John Edwards 39 26 35

129 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:27:32pm

Andrew will crawl up to the top of the flag pole while the Kerry/MSM/bullshit lying liberal media boat - sinks. Andrew will reach for a life preserver at the very last moment. Unfortunately, his credibility will sink with the uber-lib death ship of lies.

130 Jim in Virginia  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:28:17pm

My 126- NBC will be hot on this story if they can prove CBS fouled up. Charles, promise us you will let us know if they call you for an interview.
Old media courting new media- I like it. Make them respect you. Hell, make them pay you!

132 Captain Nemo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:28:49pm

oops, sorry, I screwed up post #124 by using angle brackets. What I meant to say in response to #72 Katt, was "Is there any honest lefty anywhere? -- it seems not, mainly because they've bought into post-modernism, so they don't believe in objective reality, which is why they keep buying into lies like "The Panama Deception" and "Fahrenheit 9/11", and why they never 'fess up after they get caught.

133 littleoldlady  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:29:03pm

Tom,

Thanks for noticing :-) Actually I've been here reading everyday, just not posting.

134 lone star  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:29:33pm

Just finished Peter Jennings on ABC World Snews. They had a short about this controversy. They discussed the type face issue and the superscript (th) then mentioned that CBS' response to the story was that they had experts look at them and they stand behind them as authentic.

135 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:30:26pm

# 130 J

"I'm sorry Mr. Brokaw, but I couldn't **possibly** do the interview except live, on nightly news, for an honoraia of $5k"
:-)
:-)

137 foreign devil  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:32:00pm

Whether a prima facie case can be made that the documents are indeed forgeries or not, Charles' very convincing experiment and the little matter of the superscript (th) has raised enough doubt that even in a court of law the documents wouldn't pass the spit test. They are highly suspect. Besides, with the numbers I'm seeing now and the realization emerging that the greater silent majority 'gets it' and don't want some pantywaist in charge if there's a fight, I don't think Bush has to worry.

It would, however, be wise to pursue this to the point of demanding an explanation from CBS. Just so that they get the 'message' in case they decide to make these documents do triple duty another time. This is the second time in this campaign the question of Bush's service has been raised and answered. This overweaning emphasis on retracing ground that was already covered tells me the Democrats are desperate.

138 Artisticulated  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:32:30pm

Buckaroo, Dukakis looks good next to Prince John™

Off to play with my kid. Historical day indeed.

*stepping happily down the stairs*

139 foreign devil  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:32:36pm

Whether a prima facie case can be made that the documents are indeed forgeries or not, Charles' very convincing experiment and the little matter of the superscript (th) has raised enough doubt that even in a court of law the documents wouldn't pass the spit test. They are highly suspect. Besides, with the numbers I'm seeing now and the realization emerging that the greater silent majority 'gets it' and don't want some pantywaist in charge if there's a fight, I don't think Bush has to worry.

It would, however, be wise to pursue this to the point of demanding an explanation from CBS. Just so that they get the 'message' in case they decide to make these documents do triple duty another time. This is the second time in this campaign the question of Bush's service has been raised and answered. This overweaning emphasis on retracing ground that was already covered tells me the Democrats are desperate.

140 Sullivan  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:32:54pm

Just to throw in my 2 cents. The reason the small superscripted th does not line up perfectly when creating your own Word copy is that the th in the forged memo appears to be underlined.

141 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:33:00pm

Law suit.

Law suit.

Let the new media twist the arm of the old irrelevant media until they cry like little girls.

142 dennisw-matamoros  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:33:41pm

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]


Developing Brief Partial Summary of the Forgery Elements of the CBS/Rather Faked letter
Insightful Comments Made by FReepers
=================================================

1-- proportional spacing not generally available
2 -- superscripts not generally available
3 - "th" single element not generally available
4 - Smart quotes. Curved apostrophes and quotation marks were not available
5-The blurriness of the copy indicates it was recopied dozens of times, tactic of forgers
6--Signature block. Typical authentic military signature block has name, then rank, then on the next line the person's position. This just has rank beneath the name.
7--Margins. These look like a computer's unjustified default, not the way a person typing would have done it.
8 -- Date usually with three letters, or in form as 110471.
9 - words run over consistent with word processor
10 - may be a Times Roman or similar font not generally available then (per Haas Atlas)
11 - signature looks faked
12 - no errors and whiteout
13 - no letterhead
14 - exact match for Microsoft Word Processor
15 - Paper size problem, Air Force and Guard did not use 8 1/2 x 11 inch paper until the 1980s.
16 - Overlap analysis is an exact match
17 - absence of hyphens to split words between lines, c/w 1970's typewriter.
18 - 5000 Longmont #8 in Houston Tx. does not exist
19 - Box 34567 is suspicious, at best
20 - it would have been nearly impossible to center a letterhead with proportional spacing without a computer.
21 - Bush's grade would "normally" be abbreviated "1Lt" not "1st Lt"
22 - Subject matter bizarre
23 - Air Force did not use street addresses for their offices, rather HQ AFLC/CC, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433.

posted on 09/09/2004 7:19:49 PM EDT by Diogenesis (Cuius rei demonstrationem mirabilem sane detexi hanc marginis exiguitas non caperet.)

143 foreign devil  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:33:42pm

Apologies for the double post; the system was slow and didn't seem to have registered the post. Mea culpa!

144 Whole Wheat Bagel  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:34:28pm

#25

What the heck is it with the nuts on the left that think LGFers are racist/fascist/neo-nazis? Please name me a neo-nazi that supports Israel.

145 militarybrat  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:35:32pm

This surprises me about as much as the look on my students' faces when caught cheating. I once even had a mother write the report, the kid turned it in IN MOM'S HANDWRITING, and then they got upset that I gave a zero.

"That's not MY handwriting!" mom claimed.

Yeah, cause a 14 year old boy and a 47 year old woman have identical handwriting...

by the way, until today (much like 2000 and all the "chad" terms) I had never heard of monotype, kerning, or any of those other terms. I'm taken aback at how many people know this stuff that I never knew existed!

Ooooh, bet it's on the next Trivial Pursuit edition!!!! (chad is on the latest one, by the way)

146 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:35:36pm
Since several people have commented on the one noticeable mismatch—the slightly lower “th” in “187th”—I should point out that this difference goes away when the Word document linked above is printed. In the printed document, the superscript “th” exactly matches the CBS News document.

Charles - can't you scan the printed doc and do the overlay thingie? That should end the controversy.

147 veebee  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:35:48pm

Great detective work, Charles!

148 Spiny Norman  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:35:55pm

#132 Captain Nemo

they don't believe in objective reality, which is why they keep buying into lies like "The Panama Deception" and "Fahrenheit 9/11", and why they never 'fess up after they get caught.

Of course not, because they are promoting a "greater truth."

Ha!

149 B~C  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:36:32pm

You know what else is interesting about the memos is that they never use a hyphenated word. Back in the 70's, I would think it would be much more likely that typed words would be broken in the middle, but here every single one fits within standard MS Word proportions and line breaks.

As for holding media responsible, if anyone is in California, and they got all their evidence lined up nicely, they could try a Bus. Prof. Code 17200 claim alleging that biased, one-sided reporting is unfair or unethical to consumers. I'm not recommending it, and it would eventually be thrown out, but you would certainly make the news. You could include CBS' 60 Minutes interview plugging Richard Clark and his book, which was published by a CBS affiliate, as an example of CBS profiting from unfair actions.

Other states may have their own actions, but California's is pretty lenient. Plus you could take depositions of CBS employees about all the biased things their editors have said. That would be kind of fun.

150 Beagle  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:38:10pm

How could a man long dead sign a document produced by a modern computer?
Answer: he can't.

151 J.D.  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:38:57pm

#120 hey 19

Technology has caught the criminals.


I read something fairly recently regarding the typical absence of journalists' knowledge of either science or economics. They get by with shoddy reporting on those topics many times day after day, year after year.

Back on-topic
I never used a typewriter of any kind that had print that looked like that. There was no such thing.

After the shenanigans that went on after the last election, nothing should surprise us.
I wish they would just try to conduct themselves with some honesty and civility.
Does anyone know whatever happened to these things?

152 recycler  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:39:30pm

Posted up part of the interview Brit Hume conducted with Byron York (of National Review) a little earlier today on Fox News.

Posted the section that specifically dealt with issue of forgery.

VIDEO HERE
http://www.dailyrecycler.com/blog/2004/09/brit-hum e-and-byron-york-on-memos.html

For those of you still at work, or those of you without TiVO.. Enjoy :)

153 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:39:42pm

"contact us" is at the bottom.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

154 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:40:21pm

#133 littleoldlady

After last Yom Kippur and the smell of your kitchen wafting my way from PA, I could never forget you! :)

#144 Whole Wheat Bagel

Yes, while blithely ignoring the real nazis of the 21st century.

The mind-bending effects of political correctness. Amazing.

155 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:40:42pm
156 svegmaw  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:41:03pm

and now the worm turns.....

Big time kudos to Charles! As soon as I saw this post earlier today, I think I was about 40-50 something like that, I started posting to Drudge, wrote a nasty gram to CBS (someone was kind enough list their addy) and every other MSM outlet I could think of.

This has been an amazing demonstration of how the internet "can" work for all of us!

157 genard  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:41:36pm

Yes, poor Andrew, he has been itching to abandon Bush, the looming Dark Ages be damned. I used to have to defend him against my homosexual brothers, now am am no longer burdened.

I like his intellect and his education but he has lost his common sense and good cheer over this marriage thing. He now finds it possible to reverse most every conservative inclination he once had. He is become a gay fundamentalist listing left.

Now he reminds me of pro- and anti-abortion true believers.

158 Right Wing Conspirator  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:43:06pm

I posted this on the other thread, but just so you all don't miss it -

Son of Late Officer Questions Bush Memos

DALLAS Sept. 9, 2004 — The authenticity of newly unearthed memos stating that George W. Bush failed to meet standards of the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War was questioned Thursday by the son of the late officer who reportedly wrote the memos.
"I am upset because I think it is a mixture of truth and fiction here," said Gary Killian, son of Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984.

Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father and retired as a captain in 1991, said one of the memos, signed by his father, appeared legitimate. But he doubted his father would have written another, unsigned memo which said there was pressure to "sugar coat" Bush's performance review.

"It just wouldn't happen," he said. "The only thing that can happen when you keep secret files like that are bad things. ... No officer in his right mind would write a memo like that."


Dig that grave MSM, dig that F'ing grave.

159 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:43:31pm

No one's brought it up yet, so what the heck ---

Reason #56 Algore now regrets inventing the internet ...
:-)
:-)

160 littleoldlady  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:43:36pm

#154 Thom

Has it been that long? Whoa. Well the holidays are coming around again and you're still invited!

161 phil  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:44:53pm

I'm very curious to see how long it takes CBS to make a retraction. Since this appears to be an obvious fraud CBS has only two choices:

1- stand by their story and be defacto conspirators,
2- quickly admit to being duped and take their lumps for doing an unacceptably bad job of investigating the veracity of the documents.

Either way, their credibility is totally shot... unless, of course, you suffer from BDS.

162 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:45:16pm

Charles -

I printed your Word document and the "th" was exactly as you said. Now I'm wondering why my version (generated on a PC laptop) prints the "th" lower.

At any rate - I'm finally convinced.

{Like that matters - LOL.}

163 CrusaderGirl  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:45:49pm

Who would do this?

It's either someone stupid, or someone really young.

I think they're young, someone born AFTER 1980, because kids and young adults young enough don't have ANY previous experience with typewriters and probably have not seen many 30 or 40 year old documents.

It's someone who has NO previous experience with professional-quality memorandum

Someone linguistically clueless. Someone who probably doesn't understand slight generational changes in diction. I can picture a twenty-something kid saying to himself: "WTF, they didn't use 'CYA' back then?!"

164 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:46:44pm

{{{littleoldlady}}}

Time flies when you're having fun ... :)

165 Spiny Norman  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:48:09pm

#144 Whole Wheat Bagel

What the heck is it with the nuts on the left that think LGFers are racist/fascist/neo-nazis? Please name me a neo-nazi that supports Israel.

It's that vile "Neocon-Zionazi" bullshit -- their favorite talking point before the Bush=Hitler slander arrived.

166 Beagle  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:49:04pm

CBS lawyers better get moving. The family of the deceased man has a lawsuit, as does GWB, and the Defense Department (at least). The damages, given the coverage, are incalculable. I'd just round it to a billion dollars (while putting my pinkie to my lip).

This is slam dunk defamation.

167 beavereater  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:50:06pm

CNN at 7:40 EST was stil showing one of the documents. Dont they ever read the news thats available in the blogpress? Freeking shame!


"formatted on a 1973 CBS LIE-NO-TYPE"

168 Manco_Dollars  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:50:09pm

#166:

Make it $10 billion.

169 SwampWoman  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:51:43pm

Having worked in Battalion HQ doing paperwork in the late 70s when my pregnancy got too advanced to kick ass and take names, I'm familiar with the typewriters in use then. The older guys stuck to manual typewriters. IBM selectrics were otherwise in use in the RA.

I took out my ol' DD214 and checked it out. None of the letters lined up exactly with each other on the line. There was no superscript (our version of superscript was rolling up the paper 1/2 line and typing in regular size). Nobody ever typed memos with the subject line CYA or they ass would get UNcovered in a hurry. National Guard had even crappier equipment than the Army, so I doubt they had Word back then. (Actually, I doubt they had many electric typewriters floating around.)

As somebody helpfully pointed out, nobody would worry about doing any ass covering over a lieutenant, 'less maybe you murdered him and buried his body out in the parade ground somewhere. THAT might be occasion for ass covering, but I sure as hell hope that anybody that became a commander wouldn't be stupid enough to type himself memos about it.

170 plo0ome  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:52:16pm

#27 evariste

Thanks Ev...I will

you are such a sweetheart, to take an interest ...

muwahhhhhhhh

171 Pitiricus  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:52:34pm

# 150 Beagle:

through a ouija board?

LOL!

172 andthenblammo!  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:52:54pm

#166 Beagle:

Why ask for billions when we can make..........millions?
(pinkie to lip right back at ya!)

173 Toby Petzold  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:52:57pm

Did people really use the acronym CYA back in the early 1970s? I was just a baby then, but that strikes me as a relatively new term. Who knows? I'm just too excited right now to care! Ha, ha, ha!!!

Rather, you're going down.

175 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:53:39pm

what I like to say to moral degenerate leftwing Jew hating a-holes?

"There is no Palestine".


Then watch them freak out. It's fun.

176 Frank IBC  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:53:45pm

Sullivan's quote...

FORGERIES? The pro-Bush blogosphere is claiming that they are obvious forgeries. I'm no expert in these matters and cannot tell if this analysis is sound...The blogs prove one thing, though. If these documents are legit, they are devastating to Bush.

now updated...

THE MEMOS: To clarify something. When I said that the Killian memos were "devastating" to Bush, I should have been clearer. I didn't mean devastating to his re-election prospects. They're a blip on the radar screen of the campaign. Just devastating to the idea that he never got special treatment because of his privileged background during the Vietnam war...

Iron Fist -

Yep, if Sullivan actually took advantage of Massachusetts' gay marriage, it might interfere with his barebacking career.

Thom -

I don't think that the problem is with "187th" - note that the words on either side of it are also misaligned in the vertical plane. I think this is from scanning and re-printing the document several times.

177 Katt  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:53:47pm

Why Andy is hot for the two "johns". And if they have hairy chests, Andy would sell his soul to the devil.
[Link: www.funlol.com...]

178 Ann  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:54:10pm

#166 Beagle:

This is slam dunk defamation.


Cheers to you, too!!!

179 Cam  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:54:41pm

#97 Artisticulated:

Does that mean there's no way for an actual tally today?

Actually, there is. We took the average number of vistors, re-calculated the number of resets over the course of a day, ran it through a logarithim, and came up with the following amount:

A freaking SHITLOAD.

180 WarBicycle  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:54:42pm

I forwarded the link to LGF to a number of conservative Canadian TV reporters and newspapers, let's see if they report the story.

181 charlie eklund  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:54:48pm

It is absolutely disgraceful that CBS News seems to be standing behind these obvious forgeries.

Disgraceful.

But not surprising.

182 Pitiricus  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:55:02pm

#25:

well I guess we are part of the great Jewish conspiracy, the one that wants to take over the world (/sarcasm off) ...

Sight...

183 hintervor  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:55:13pm

To zuckerlilly - 11

Your statement is not valid.

[I saw it coming and and sent a email about you to Charles two days ago. He seems not very intrested.]

W.T. said directly to you:

- Do not copy and paste so much.
- Do not switch to "autopilot" [= talk about the topic and
not about anything else.]
- Do not annoy insult other people

And that is the only reason: You were not cooperating with him. What you did was: You said to someone "autochtoner antisemit". Then W.T. said to you: "Stop that". Then you erased that. 3 Hours later you used it again + other insulting things, like calling someone a madman. You even threatened someone.

Nobody needs someone in a political forum. What you can say against it is, that he [W.T.] has never complained serious against you in all the 2 years.

The things you've said here about the opinion of lgf is absolutely untrue. Even the fotos of Charles Baby where shown there. But your insulting and qualityless style has stolen all reputation of the material.

Quality! If you [as I said to Charles] show up as the ambassador of lgf on a website, you should be working 100% solid, because you represent a "system", not your own thinking. I showed "leo the dissident" some works of you and he said: "This must be a left troll that pretends to be an antigerman."

Its your own fault. Learn something from it.

184 Atlas Wannabe  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:55:49pm

#151 J.D.

I have an MBA with an economics concentration. I know enough to know that even reporters that typically cover business and economic issues have no understanding of basic economic principles. Not almost no understanding, but actually no understanding.

185 amfex  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:55:55pm

I am so glad that I donated money to this blog. You guys are amazing. Keep up the good work! I urge everyone to do the same.

The problem with liberals is that they really aren't that smart. They think they are geniuses because so many of their experts are tenured at univeristies or have written a paper published in an obscure journal, but let's remember that some of the best Nazi's were in the German academia. Some producers at CBS probably thought that this would be the key to getting Bush back on the swift-boat controversy. They are third in the network ratings for a good reason.

186 Gretchen  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:58:30pm

The local CBS affiliate and CBS National both ran stories tonight touting the exclusive memos. They were pushing the WH trying to shut the memos down but skipped the forgery bit.

Shovel in hand, they dig deeper!

187 J.D.  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 2:58:44pm

#166 Beagle

CBS lawyers better get moving. The family of the deceased man has a lawsuit, as does GWB, and the Defense Department (at least). The damages, given the coverage, are incalculable. I'd just round it to a billion dollars (while putting my pinkie to my lip).

This is slam dunk defamation.


Please not the lawyers. Anything but the lawyers.

188 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:00:22pm

# 179 Cam

Is that the same method you use to figure how deep to make a hole?
:-)
:-)

189 JWM  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:00:25pm

C BS
aptly named network
JWM

190 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:01:11pm

#176 Frank IBC

Ugh. I'm getting sea-sick trying to look at the original so closely so many times...

But the problem is when I first did it, the "th" was lower than the "th" in the original - and it stayed lower even after I printed it. So when I did my lame forgery they didn't match at all.

For whatever reason (Mac vs. PC?) Charles' version prints the "th" in precisely the same location as the original.

{"hp psc 2410 photosmart all-in-one" in case it matters.}

191 tyrannical  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:01:23pm

ha.

CBS = Complete BullShit

193 John N.  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:01:54pm

Let us learn from our LLL guides.

When this topic comes up start chanting:
"What did Kerry know, and when did he know it?"

194 V the K  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:02:28pm
Mr. Rather said the authenticity of the 32-year-old email has been confirmed by several Nigerian officials who specialize in electronic funds transfer by email.
195 Beagle  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:02:31pm

Defamation law

Libel law changed considerably in 1964 with the Supreme Court decision in New York Times v. Sullivan. In New York Times, the Court provided legal protection to the media and others who speak out on public issues by making it harder for public officials, people elected to public offices, to recover damages for defamatory statements. Under New York Times, a public official would now have to prove that defamatory statements were made with "actual malice," or knowledge that the statement was false or made with reckless disregard for the truth.

Later, in Curtis Publishing Co., v. Butts (1967) the Supreme Court extended the Times ruling to public figures, people of widespread fame or notoriety, so that public plaintiffs would also have to prove that the false statements were made with actual malice. Together, New York Times and Butts imposed constitutional limits on state libel laws by providing the news media with First Amendment protection against lawsuits as long as journalists report in good faith what they believe to be the truth about public officials and figures. In these cases, journalists are protected even when they make mistakes.

To successfully sue for libel under common law, a plaintiff must be able to prove (1) publication, (2) identification, and (3) defamation. In addition, the plaintiff also has to show that the suit has been brought in a court that has jurisdiction and that the suit has been filed within a specific period of time. If the libel involves a matter of public concern, under New York Times the First Amendment is implicated and the plaintiff must additionally prove that (4) the defendant was at fault, (5) that the statement was false and, (6) that there was actual injury caused by the libel.


Actual malice: Rather and CBS have a history of partisan Democratic behavior.
Reckless disregard: To a casual observer the documents look computer-generated.
Publication: worldwide and very critical of President Bush.
Damages: cannot be calculated (too high). What is the reputation of a president running for office worth?

CBS will have a very difficult time showing "good faith". They, as yet, have not admitted any mistake or produced ANY experts. They better get in front of this. There is a duty to mitigate the harm caused by any tort. Defamation damages will keep rising so long as they don't disclaim this story.

196 hintervor  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:02:55pm

To all other lgf-readers.

Everybody of the lgf-system can come to spon- and post whatever he or she likes and discuss the topics in an absolutly productive athmosphere.

But ...

do not insult anyone. Look at your quality. And be a true ambassador of the material you are using. Use links [be honest, who your "man" is] and do not "fill up" the forum with endless texts.

For now. This website is lost. Lost to left-propaganda. One of the major websites in germany. THat was the work of an amateur.

Its about you to decide how woth a strategic point in germany really is.

197 Ray against the Machine  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:03:09pm

Charles,

I saw in a comment that you think you have a race condition? send me an email, i have an include/db i can contribute that i use for my tracking on my site. it might cure your problem if you are using a file instead of a db...

/Ray Against the Machine

198 Belize042  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:03:22pm

Thom,

Didn't your nic have a superscript TM on it at one time?

Or was that a crude CBS forgery?

:p

199 William  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:04:35pm

CBS' document-gate is gaining traction...

ABC's Terry Moran (a Bush-hater) is reporting on this now (on the radio) citing "several document experts question the authenticity of these documents."

CBS cannot continue to claim these documents are "genuine."  This will haunt them like an albotross, they had better cut their losses soon, and face the music.  This is only going to get worse.
 

200 Beagle  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:04:43pm

#187 J.D.

In this case the CBS lawyers better tell the CBS management and 'news' people to quit stonewalling. The duty to mitigate is being ignored.

201 levi from queens  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:04:57pm

I've been boycotting CBS ever since they broke the abu ghraib photos when even the NYT (EVEN THE FRIGGIN NYT) said they were sensationalist and non-newsworthy.

I assumed that CBS counted up the dead U.S. boys and girls in Iraq to follow and figured they were worth the story. (But even If I were a Nielsen family, my hour of viewing per month wouldn't kill them too much-- it had every bit the effect of my decision to boycott Chinese consumer goods 8 years ago)

202 PETN Sandwich  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:06:22pm

And other things -

I have ten year old docs, carefully preserved, that have coffe cup rings, acid burns, and rusty paperclip and staple stains.

Whens the last time y'all seen thirty year old docs that look like a new doc that has been run through the copier and fax a few dozen times.

Yeah, beating a dead horse...

203 Cam  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:07:50pm

#188 Buckaroo:

LOL. No, when calculating the depth of the hole, I:

(i) Check the bank account and see how far into overdraft we are.

(ii) Adjust my estimate accordingly.

;-)

204 Sarah D.  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:08:28pm

Link for the 187th Fighter Wing. Notice the zip code.

205 J.D.  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:08:29pm

I agree with some of those above. I'll bet that if anyone ever gets to the bottom of this, they will find some very youthful clueless "whiz-kids". Can you imagine kids these days transported back to the early 70s? They would be blown away.

206 Geepers  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:09:24pm

Funny how for 2 weeks CBS claimed that they weren't looking into SBVT allegations because 264 veterans with endless documentation, sources and references to back them up were "questionable" while after personally digging for dirt on Bush run with a story that is show to be a complete forgery.

Fair and balanced. That's why Dan's ratings continue to rise.

207 recycler  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:09:41pm

Who thinks Rather will cover this tonight?

208 Gretchen  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:09:47pm

Laser/ Injet Printers all print differently. At my workplace we have had problems getting documents even pdfs to print consistently from printer to printer although the "experts" claim they should be the same. Forget Mac to PC. Fonts - even fonts named the same can print differently from one computer to another even sent to the same printer. It may have to do with the version of the font and the printer software. It looks to me as if this document was xeroxed and or faxed several times which may explain baselines being off or the superscript - which I believe you can customize being slightly different.

Just my 2 cents. I can't believe this was created on a typewriter, but if the Libs want to believe this officer had a typesetting machine or MS Word available in the 70s that's okay. Kerry will loose regardless of memogate.

209 The Other Les  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:09:56pm

If you'll pardon the linkwhoring here's my take on the CBS Memoscam.

210 placebo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:11:01pm

i've already emailed 60 minutes about how unprofessional this is, and i havent read the comments to see if anyone else has posted the address:

60m@cbsnews.com

211 addison  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:13:28pm

Wow. I was on the radio.

212 greenmiler  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:13:53pm

KerryI question the timing of allegation of forgery!..I served in Vietnam Damn-it!!{wrings hands, wipes snot from nose, and soils himself}

213 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:14:17pm

# 205 J.D.

"What do you mean the TV controls are **on the TV**?! And why do you only have 6 stinkin' channels?"

"Hey -- this phone is stuck onto the wall! And it's got a dial!"

:-)
:-)

214 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:15:28pm

#198 Belize042

I voted for the ™ before I voted against it!!

----------------------------

OK. Here is my scan of Charles' document printed, and here is my lame attempt at a forgery.

The crucial thing to notice here is the relative placement of the by-now-infamous "th" in the original, Charles' simulation, and mine.

215 Pitiricus  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:17:10pm

# 184:

I have a Ph. D in economics (from Chicago) and I am astonished at the level of ignorance displayed by journalists...

216 may05  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:17:30pm

And you guys hate conspiracy theorists??!!

217 tom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:18:06pm

Charles

Is your daily count total thing logging to a flat file or a mysql db?

218 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:18:13pm

#216 may05

You haven't been keeping up, have you?

Idiot.

219 tonecluster  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:18:23pm

>>Laser/ Injet Printers all print differently. At my workplace we have had problems getting documents even pdfs to print consistently from printer to printer although the "experts" claim they should be the same. Forget Mac to PC. Fonts - even fonts named the same can print differently from one computer to another even sent to the same printer. It may have to do with the version of the font and the printer software. It looks to me as if this document was xeroxed and or faxed several times which may explain baselines being off or the superscript - which I believe you can customize being slightly different.

220 SwampWoman  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:19:24pm

DAMN! I thought 60 minutes was supposed to be all about "investigative journalism" (apparent oxymoron). If I would have previously known about their document authentication experts, I would have sold them a draft of the original computer-generated declaration of independence with a signature by founding father John F. Kerry, ancestor of our illustrious democratic candidate.

Those primitive word processing programs were a bitch to operate on account of the goose quills' tendency to shatter in the printer and spatter ink. A good copy like I have obtained on parchment-like paper should be worth millions.

221 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:20:11pm
222 tonecluster  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:20:34pm

Hmm.. I gooed that post.

Basically: PDF streams are a diferent animal than a standard WORD document; in PDF, there are issues regarding font substitutions and font embedding, etc.

Given MS WORD, a common, modern standard laser or laserjet printer (PCL, not IPDS or AFPDS), you will get the same result from the same doc across said printers.

223 hobgoblin  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:20:39pm

Charles,

I just wanted to say congratulations on a job well done.

You've earned your check from the Zionist overlords today, bucko!

224 madmark  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:20:47pm

AP just released the story (6:10 pm Central), still as if the documents were genuine...

[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

225 J.D.  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:21:11pm

#213 Buckaroo

You had 6 channels?

226 Furious J  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:21:34pm

Kerry Spot is reporting that the General Staudt referred into the 1973 memo retired in 1972.

Put a fork in yourself CBS, ... et cetera.

227 Dar ul Harbarian  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:22:03pm

I love all you guys and gals but you are a tempest in a teapot.

The Big Media still controlls the message.

This forgery business will get, at best, a couple minutes on Fox. Then....oblivion.

The 60-minute segment will be seared into the memories of millions and Bush will have a little smear of shit that will cost a few hundred thousand votes.

This sort of thing will continue right up to election day and through the recounts.

The Big Media wins. Kerry wins.

228 andthenblammo!  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:22:34pm

#213 Buckaroo:

"What do you mean, "what?"? I said I want a decaf mocha soy latte cappuchino and a no-carb waffle! Don't just stare at me like I'm some alien or something, "Alice"!

229 Cam  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:23:35pm

#225 J.D :

^ freakin' channels?! We had two - the CBC, and if someone stood on the roof and manually adjusted the aerial, sometimes you got channel 29 out of Buffalo...

;-)

230 [Engineer]  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:24:13pm

Would these documents be considered official Air Force documents or personal documents? Seems to me that they are official, which means that somebody is in a whole lot of trouble.

231 Pitiricus  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:25:14pm

What do you expect of Dan Rather?

I mean the guy reported from israel about the Intifada and didn't know what is temple Mount!

[Link: www.aish.com...]

232 grayp  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:25:24pm

This was posted on the first thread but haven't seen it here yet. Powerline is reporting CBS backtracking. Their orginal 'stand by the story' line:

As is standard practice at CBS News, each of the documents broadcast on '60 Minutes' was thoroughly investigated by independent experts, and we are convinced of their authenticity.


Current "oh boy, we're fucked" line

CBS verified the authenticity of the documents by talking to individuals who had seen the documents at the time they were written. These individuals were close associates of Colonel Jerry Killian and confirm that the documents reflect his opinions at the time the documents were written

YESSSSS!

233 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:25:41pm

# 225 J.D.

Actually -- the 3 alphabets, PBS, 3 indep. (one later became UPN, one WB, and one CBS when Fox took the "original" CBS frequency) annnd CBC from across the river!!!! On a good weather day, you could get the indep. Ann Arbor as well as 2-3 Toledo shows!! It was a bonanza!

(Metro Detroit area, the 1970s)

234 Security Mom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:25:47pm
But the problem is when I first did it, the "th" was lower than the "th" in the original - and it stayed lower even after I printed it. So when I did my lame forgery they didn't match at all.

It depends on what printer you have installed, if I understand the issue correctly.

235 Cam  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:26:28pm

#230 [Engineer]:

As far as I can tell, they are playing it as if this was a personal memo and not an official one, perhaps even for his own records. Kinda like when I scribble "Milk, store" on my hand so I don't forget.

Writing on one's hand is the Canadian equivalent of a Palm Pilot.

236 Luigi  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:26:33pm

Charles, beautiful work. Very clever. You have the eye of an analyst, and you know your computer. Really a pity the traffic (or whatever) overwhelmed your Hit Counter.

I have always said that what happens here at LGF is important. Important people read this site, and that will increase. I have always felt it is a mission to post the truth here so it can enter the public dialogue. Leaders have to come up with new strategies and new ideas, and LGF is a place where active minds produce them. LGF is a virtual think tank. And now.. and now... we are a force to be reckoned with! Don't mess with LGF.

And when its over, and Bush Cheney are re-elected, there is now a certainty that LGF will have played a small role in achieving that. LGF will have played a role in furthering the Bush Doctrine of not waiting to be hit, but pro-actively and if necessarily unilaterally replacing terror states with democracies. In a small way, LGF has played a role in strengthening America's karma.

237 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:27:54pm

#234 Security Mom

That's what I'd gathered, but it is that point that simmered some lingering doubt.

No more! The key has to be in what OS one used to generate the Word duplicate.

238 SwampWoman  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:28:12pm

#227 Dar

The Big Media still controlls the message.

This forgery business will get, at best, a couple minutes on Fox. Then....oblivion.

The 60-minute segment will be seared into the memories of millions and Bush will have a little smear of shit that will cost a few hundred thousand votes.

This sort of thing will continue right up to election day and through the recounts.

The Big Media wins. Kerry wins.

Well, Dar, I respectfully disagree. I rarely see news in the MSM that I don't check out via the computer, and I don't think I'm all that unusual.

239 may05  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:29:10pm

#218 Thom


I don't like to keep up with ignorants...

240 tom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:29:13pm

oh my god, Paula Zahn is on CNN right now talking about the FUCKING PRISON ABUSE SCANDAL!....AGAIN! No wonder their fucking ratings are in the goddam toilet. These assholes needs to be locked up! Maddog liberalism is killing this country.

241 Furious J  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:29:54pm

The Weekly Standard has put the issue before forensics experts.

And according to several forensic document experts contacted by THE WEEKLY STANDARD say the Killian memos appear to be forgeries. Although it is nearly impossible to establish with certainty the authenticity of documents without a careful examination of the originals, several irregularities in the Killian memos suggest that CBS may have been the victim of a hoax.

"These sure look like forgeries," says William Flynn, a forensic document expert widely considered the nation's top analyst of computer-generated documents. Flynn looked at copies of the documents posted on the CBS News website (here, here, here, and here). Flynn says, "I would say it looks very likely that these documents could not have existed" in the early 1970s, when they were allegedly written.

242 Jefe  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:30:03pm

#232 grayp

The rest of the backtrack: "So, even if they are fake, it's what he would have written anyway, so there." Oh, and we mustn't question the "individuals"!

243 Cam  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:30:24pm

#239 may05:

I don't like to keep up with ignorants...

Hmmm. Then perhaps you should consider takig a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut.

Thanks for your time.

244 Security Mom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:30:29pm

addison- what show? whudja say? did you give out the LGF URL?

245 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:30:55pm

# 236 Lu

dude, that post is almost making me tear up!

Seriously, he's right Charles -- I haven't said it outright yet today, so here --THANK YOU once again for the invaluable SERVICE you are providing to all of us ...

246 Havoc  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:31:10pm

Dan "make up the news" "go with my gut" Rather is well described for his loooooong history of broadcasting -- GASP -- , Breaking News

only to have wound up stepping on his own d*ck.

Dan will they show the full body shot of you tonight on CBS with yet another bandage "down there" ? ! ?

For the historic rundown on Blather, amble over to Sgt Styker's blog.

247 William  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:32:03pm

LOL, that was funny as hell:

[Link: acepilots.com...]
 

248 Ilan Toren  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:32:03pm

Kerry Spot at NRO

Y'all seen this link.... So this document controversy has made it to the National Review. I noticed that Google doesn't have links yet if you use Bush CBS forgery but the story has already made it to the mainstream media, albeit a less visited corner. LGF isn't mentioned by name, although Powerline is.

249 Dar ul Harbarian  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:32:52pm

#238 Swamp Woman

I hope you are right and I am wrong.

I hate being such downer. Nobody wants to talk to me at parties.

250 Security Mom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:32:55pm
I'll bet that if anyone ever gets to the bottom of this, they will find some very youthful clueless "whiz-kids".

Reminds me of when I mentioned to my computer geek nephew that when I started college there was no such thing as a PC, and he said "You mean there were only Macs?"

251 Belize042  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:34:21pm

#246 Havoc

The last line in that Weekly Standard article is great;

(A spokeswoman for CBS, Kelly Edwards, said she was overwhelmed with phone calls and did not respond to specific requests for comment.)

The blogosphere strikes back. Take that, Gunga Dan.

252 Melissa  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:34:32pm

This is not just a wardrobe malfunction. It's one thing to thrust Janet Jackson's tit in my face. It's quite another to try to deliberately influence the outcome of a presidential election. I sent an e-mail to CBS. I feel confident I'll never hear from them, but they are wrong if they think they will get away with this.

Welcome to the blogosphere.

253 Chip Designer  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:35:29pm

Currently, the post office adds the last two digits of the zip code to the front of a post office box number. Thus PO Box 567 in zip code 77034 becomes box 34567.

BUT, this is a recent practice. It was not the case for post office boxes I used in the early 70's. I think the change over was made in the 80's.

Of course, you have to be old to remember things like that.

254 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:36:08pm

#239 may05

Indeed. You prefer to extract your head from your cloaca just long enough to post an inane, uninformed, clueless comment.

Woohoo!

You are, in a word ...

255 Security Mom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:38:29pm
ignorants...

I smell eurotrash.

256 addison  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:38:36pm

#244 Security Mom,

The Hugh Hewitt Show. I mentioned that the General Staudt (I incorrectly said he was a Lt. General; he was a Brigadier) mentioned in the August 18th 1973 memo retired in 1972. I mentioned Power Line and Little Green Footballs but Hugh was kind of talking over me at the time (not purposely).

257 Cam  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:40:47pm

#255 Security Mom:

Charles has tracked this twat before. IIRC, he said that he was from Lebanon, or some damned place.

Personally, I'm leaning towards placing him in MarryYerSister, capital of Headuphislandia.

258 Sarah D.  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:42:49pm

The son of Lt. Col. Jerry Killian is disputing the documents.

259 V the K  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:43:12pm

CBS News reminds me of this Leonard Nimoy quote from the Simpsons Episode "The Springfield Files:"

"Hello. I'm Leonard Nimoy. The following tale of alien encounters Bush National Guard documents is true. And by true, I mean false. It's all lies. But they're entertaining lies. And in the end, isn't that the real truth? The answer is no."
260 Chip Designer  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:43:13pm

Before computers became available in the late 80's, it was very rare for managers to ever type anything. Either they wrote a note, or used dictation equipment. And whenever a secretary typed a memo, she always put her initials at the bottom.

None of these memos have the secretarial signature. And it is hard to believe that a Lt. Colonel would stoop to typing his own memos. Particularly a unit commander.

Thirty years ago, I would add fake initials to the bottom of my letters so that it would appear that I had a secretary.

261 zulubaby  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:43:32pm

Security Mom,

I smell eurotrash.

I thought the same thing but apparently not ...

262 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:43:35pm

# 257 Cam

MarryYerSister being just down the road from HonorKillYerNiece ..
:-(

263 hcq  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:43:59pm

Picking nits here, but do Zip codes get changed much over time?

A USPS search for the Zip for GWB's address on the 5/4/72 memo is not 77027 as the memo says, but 7706.

And the USPS says the Zip for PO Box 34567 is 77234, not 77034 as it appears on the memo "letterhead".

264 Chip Designer  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:44:46pm

Whoever wrote these fake memos is guilty of the federal crime of impersonating an officer.

265 Right Wing Conspirator  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:45:12pm

#260 Chip Designer

Thirty years ago, I would add fake initials to the bottom of my letters so that it would appear that I had a secretary.

LOL. Sorry, but that was funny :-)

266 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:45:17pm

# 261 zb

All hail the linkmistress!!!!!

267 Right Brain  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:45:24pm

I worked in a Chicago print shop from 1969 through 1974 while putting myself through the University of Illinois with a BA in Design and a minor in typography. It took me about three seconds to recognize these documents as a forgery. There were only two machines at the time that had proportional spacing, firstly the IBM Selectric II which if my memory serves me right had thee kerning widths (spaces are done with measurements known as kerning) the widest would have been a capital M and the thinnest was a small i. But remember only three, this Bush memorandum text is using separate spacing for each letter, it was either typeset with lead by hand in galleys or produced with a modern computer, and I mean very modern, I barfed at the text produced by computers as recently as ten years ago. The only other machine capable of producing proportional spacing on a screen was the IBM MT/SC, which we had in the print shop. I personally arranged for the purchase of it and we paid $28,000 in 1970 for it. I operated the machine routinely, it gave the finest spacing available at the time; however in order to do so one first typed in the text, stored it on a tape, removed that tape and stuck it in another end of the machine where it then spaced the letters according to the font selected. It took about three minutes per page, when it was completed the tape was then printed on clay-covered paper. Figure a morning for a twenty-page document. I have a sample of the writing here because I capriciously used it to type my BA thesis which I still have. It looks like dog food compared to galley type, and a poor country cousin to what computers can do today.

The likelihood that a military man had access, and used, and MT/SC in 1972 is of course slight, it would cost more than his house and took bloody forever. I assume they would have used typewriters, now the aforementioned IBM Selectric II costs $400. at the time. About the monthly wage for a clerical worker, the likelihood that they had one of those is also slight, but it is a mute point since there were only three spacings (if someone has a better memory than me on this give a shout).

The kerning on this text is superb, as good as galleys and about as likely to have been done in 1972 on a military base as was Stern magazine to discover Hitler's diaries in 1983. This is a poor forgery. A good forgery would make me chuckle, this is a shameful one.

268 Sarah D.  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:48:57pm

#260 Chip Designer

Even 30 years ago I doubt that there were too many secretaries at the AL-ANG. This is not a highly funded operation.

269 hcq  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:49:51pm

AARGH.

That first paragraph in #263 should've read

USPS search for the Zip for GWB's address on the 5/4/72 memo is not 77027 as the memo says, but 77056.

270 black_flag  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:50:23pm

Charles,
That is one fine piece of investigative work you are contributing to. It didnt occur to me to try what you have to expose the farce that the "journalists" (spit) have tried to pull here.

I can however add some insight to military IT technology "way back when"... as a example during my service in the 80's-90's we used DOS SHELL on the PC.... fonts you say? not unless it was on a green terminal.
on a side, this is the most I've ever seen online at once since I began visiting LFG in '01... 3500 as I write this.

you da man.

271 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:51:36pm

Now that their ad hominems and Goebbels style denials have wilted, Media apologists will probably suggest that this was a false-flag propaganda operation, concocted by Bush supporters to embarrass CBS when he hoax was exposed.

The only reason I don't suspect this is that no reasonably competent hoaxer would suppose for an instant that CBS would be taken in by alleged 1973 documents that were obviously composed on a computer with modern software.

272 Melissa  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:51:42pm

addison (#256)

I heard you. You were awesome. Now John Podhoretz is really talking up Charles and LGF on the Hugh Hewitt show. Woooohoooo!!!

273 PETN Sandwich  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:52:15pm

It has been well established that a modern machine can easily replicate the fingerprint of the thirty year old memo.

Though, in theory, a thirty year old machine could produce the documents, not one thirty year old machine has yet replicated the fingerprint.


Meanwhile... I have several copies of the Guttenburg Bible available for sale. Some claim they are similier to any type made in the 70's, they are genuine Guttenburgs.

274 Thom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:53:03pm

#261 zulubaby

It's probably a euroturd/UNturd living in Lebanon - undoubtedly to help those poor oppressed "palestinian" "refugees".

275 David Mitchell  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:54:20pm

I cringe at the source, and it doesn't help that this is my first post since registration became required. Still, according to this document, Bush's first transfer request, found at awolbush.com, the 111th could be reached at P.O. Box 34567. Also, Bush wrote Killian at that address.

I think there's plenty else to go on. I'm looking into another aspect myself.

276 Peter Verkooijen  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:55:31pm

I had to call the Republican National Committee's press office about something unrelated, but of course I asked them about these fake Guard memos. It was news to the first guy I talked to. A woman at the RNC press office had heard about the story, but didn't want to get into it and sort of dismissed it.

The sad fact is truth is irrelevant. To both the media and the political parties the only thing that matters is to have the most compelling, believable story. Making the case that these documents are fake is just too technical for the average viewer. The Republicans won't want to be seen as conspiracy theorists.

CBS and all other stations and newspapers who committed themselves to this story know this. They have nothing to gain by reporting on an 'internet rumor' that's embarrassing to them - and nothing to lose by ignoring it.

The memoscam story is dead. The media win. We lose.

277 foreign devil  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:57:23pm

#169 Swamp Woman:

I remember the only superscript symbol was the old 1/4 or 1/2 symbols and you only got them on certain models if you were really lucky. An accountant's office might order a typewriter with the fraction keys, only because they'd be likely to use them but the average office typist had to do what I've done above--1/4 use the 1 then / then the denominator.

278 Security Mom  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:57:48pm
thought the same thing but apparently not ...

ah, thanks ZB. The smell was so strong that my lizard scent pits were fooled.

279 Chip Designer  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 3:58:17pm

#268 Sarah D.

I can't vouch for the specifics in the AL-ANG. But the military enjoyed almost free labor during the draft years. And I don't recall a lot of officers spending their time typing. They would write by hand, and give it to the company clerk.

280 Kenneth  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:00:35pm

ABC news has a report from the son of Killian saying he is sure the document is a forgery, and that his father would never have written such a memo.

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

Better look out now Charles, you're famous.

281 greenmiler  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:03:29pm
"Either these are later transcriptions of earlier documents (which may have been handwritten or typed on a typewriter), or they are crude and amazingly foolish forgeries. I'm a Kerry supporter myself, but I won't let that cloud my objective judgment: I'm 99% sure that these documents were not produced in the early 1970s

Even Kerry Fans aren't fooled

282 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:06:34pm

# 276 P V

Respectfully disagree sir -- it just hit the ABC radio news -- if nothign else CBS' competitors will use it as a club "See, they're scum but we're the honest LLLs!"

283 ladybug  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:10:15pm

Hi Charles and Everybody,

IMHO that document pretending to be W's military record was NOT produced on a typewriter. Maybe it was a tRypewriter. (Couldn't help it.)

I really love this blog and I'm sorry to be such a lurker. I don't know if anyone pointed out obvious typewriter stuff yet, but I'm pretty familiar with them and here is some general knowlege.

I believe the printing in the "military" document is computerized because it is too perfect.

All typewriters that are used regularly have some sort of damage to one or more letters. It is possible to distinguish one typewriter from another that way.

Typewriters used between 1968 and 1972 were manual or electric desk models or "portables" (weighing up to 20 pounds). Both kinds usually were equipped with only one font -- that would be Courier, not Times New Roman.

Courier letters are spaced farther apart, so that the typed character is easier to read if a typewriter ribbon is smudgy or the type itself is caked with dirt.

You had a choice then between machines that typed elite (small) or regular sized type, probably equivalents of 10 pt. and 12 pt. fonts.

The IBM Selectric came along with several metal ball type elements, each bearing a different font, possibly including Times New Roman.

I doubt that the military was using the expensive IBM Selectrics. But even if they were, the letters still are too perfect.

284 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:16:41pm

# 283 lb

Welcome! You re-iterate several good points! Thx.!

285 Van Impe  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:16:51pm

I'm hope I'm wrong but I think the MSM is going to ignore the forgeries and simply let the story die. CNN ticker tape still refers to the memos, quoting Sen. Joe Biden that there should be investigation.

Well there certainly should be an investigation Joe but not the one you're thinking of!

286 FloridaHeat  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:20:42pm

#275 David Mitchell

Take a look at "George" signed on both documents. They don't match. The application looks authentic, the letter does not.

287 Roger  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:20:55pm

Charles, would it be possible in the comment sections to enable a client to choose to view comments from a number on? A range of comments? Leave the article at the top but view only comments they haven't seen yet? I think this would cut down on bandwidth big time.

288 Right Brain  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:22:03pm

#283 Sorry Ladybug, Times New Roman is a computer font, didn't exist on a Selectric I or II. Also the purpose of the golf ball like type mechanism was to allow different fonts to be used, however the spacing was limited to three widths, not 48 as are used in this memo. There were at least seven typewriters in 1972 that allowed for proportional spacing. However none of them could have approximated the excellent kerning on these Nat. Guard reports.

Read my post #267 for more about this.

289 Partisan  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:22:15pm

#276 Peter Verkooijen

"The sad fact is truth is irrelevant."

Not to me and many, many consumers of alternative media. I have friends, family and coworkers that have heard of this story today.

"CBS and all other stations and newspapers who committed themselves to this story know this."

Nope, they got hoaxed because they wanted to believe in the hoax so desperately.

"The memoscam story is dead. The media win. We lose."

Memoscam is not even started yet. Remember that NBC, ABC, FOX and CNN compete against CBS and have an interest in gaining viewers at CBS's expense.

290 foreign devil  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:22:52pm

#232 grayp:

I wonder what this is supposed to mean?

"CBS verified the authenticity of the documents by talking to individuals who had seen the documents at the time they were written. These individuals were close associates of Colonel Jerry Killian and confirm that the documents reflect his opinions at the time the documents were written."

Does that mean someone was standing over the guy when he supposedly wrote these different memos to file to himself? I don't think so. And "these individuals were close associates of Colonel Jerry Killion..." and who else were they close associates of? George Soros, perhaps?

291 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:23:31pm

# 285 V I

Remember when the LLL media ignored the Swiftees for 10 days? This'll break big in less than 1/2 that time -- ABC etc. have the added incentive here of gaining from CBS' blunder ...

292 Peter Verkooijen  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:29:24pm

#282 Buckaroo

ABC only reported an AP release on comments from Killian's son and the story ends with this devastating paragraph:

The White House distributed the four memos from 1972 and 1973 after obtaining them from CBS News. The White House did not question their accuracy.
293 greenmiler  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:30:37pm
These individuals were close associates of Colonel Jerry Killian and confirm that the documents reflect his opinions at the time the documents were written."


At first it would seem that there are others that back up the 'message'(witnesses) of the letters...I suspect though that this is cbs backtracking and they are saying the 'language' (jargon)of the message was deemed authentic by military from that time period .

294 john jay  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:33:44pm

Well done, Charles. Love the overlay! I was thinking of doing that when I saw the two documents, but I didn't have the time to print them out.

Count down to CBS's tearful admition of being hoaxed:
10...9...8....

295 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:33:59pm

#292 P V

So? Same as the White House kept mum on the Swiftees -- If it took all of 24 hrs. to draw this much of a box around CBS, imagine what the next 48 could bring?

/not understanding the pessimism one iota ...

296 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:46:05pm

I don't know why y'all coming down so hard on Dan Rather. Just because he has done $1000 a plate fundraisers for the Texas Demonratic Party doesn't mean he isn't fair and impartial.

297 Ol' Southern Boy  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:53:08pm

The statement "I will not rate" is bullshit.

As a long-serving former Air Force officer, I can say that the colonel didn't have a choice about whether or not he rated Lt Bush. It's his responsibility, by regulation, to write evaluations on his subordinates. There's no wiggle room.

If he was Bush's supervisor for more than 60 days, even if only on paper, he must have, as a minimum, written an abbreviated report called a Letter of Evaluation. If he was Bush's supervisor for 120 days or more, an OER is mandatory. No way around it. Now, he might have indicated in the OER that Bush was never around (i.e., write a derogatory OER), but according to regs, the colonel HAD to write SOMETHING. It's NOT optional.

Even if the colonel had no personal contact with Lt Bush, it is encumbant on him as a leader to find out what his subordinate was up to. It's a fundamental tenet of leadership. It's also inspectable -- I don't know how often the ANG units underwent IG inspections, but looking at a unit's OER management is easy. There are specific time limits on when to submit OERs, and it's easy to check. Since it's easy to inspect, it is a survival issue for any commander to ensure his files are up to snuff. "I won't rate" is an invitation for a less-than-satisfactory rating in unit administration. No unit commander would be so petulant -- especially over a very junior lieutenant -- to invite an unfavorable comment from an IG. Not if he valued his career.

In the Air Force back then, it was not unusual for a wing, group, or squadron to have geographically separated units (GSUs). For example, think of all those itty bitty DEW Line radar sites scattered across Canada and Alaska. Many commanders never had personal contact with some of their subordinates except by phone or mail. Somehow, those commanders were able to write OERs on their distant subordinates. So why would this colonel whine? Other commanders were obviously able to manage their people at a distance. So, explain me again: Why would Col Killian commit administrative hari-kari?

This "memo" is crap.

298 Jim in Virginia  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:57:26pm

263- yes zips do change. Houston grew fast enough in the 70's that around 1979 they split up a number of zips on the west side (where Bush lived.)

299 Airkings  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 4:57:46pm

The problem is that millions of people have seen or heard about the 60 Minutes story, and tenfold less will see any corrections. CBS ought to take next week's show and apologize for all their bias, then have Donald Trump come in at the end and fire Rather.

300 ladybug  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:00:11pm

Hi Right Brain, post #283,

I read your post #267 about typography and it was really very interesting and informative (for those of us interested in that sort of thing). Thanks.
Also, I totally agree that this is a forged document.

301 foreign devil  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:04:22pm

Here's something...didn't I read somewhere that Dan Rather is from Texas? If so, then when he was down there recently the good ol' boys from the Democratic party probably slipped him these documents they 'supposedly' got from Killian's files (why would anyone be searching there now anyway?) and asked him to do them a little favor by pushing the story on the evening news and now Rather has been caught with his tit in a wringer because the documents are proving to be problematic on a number of levels and probably Rather would rather not say where he got them.

He knows the whole thing was a set-up but he probably trusted the good ol' Texas Democrats to do a better job of forging their 'proof'. Morons!

302 Crichton  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:10:47pm

Let no one ever doubt now the mastery and genius that is Karl Rove.

303 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:15:07pm

# 302

Shaddup Moby ...

304 Sergio  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:19:09pm

Attention people who are new to LGF: Please, please spend an extra hour and go back through the archives. You have luckily stumbled upon one of the very best sites on the Internet. Get to know it!

305 applesweet  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:21:45pm

Ah, mebbe a 48 Hours investigation into CBS's 60 minutes?
Now there's a bright story, one to cause red faces and anxiety attacks.

306 David Mitchell  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:23:05pm

Forgive the self-promotion, but things have slowed down a bit on this entry, and no-one seems to have taken note of my comments on the next entry yet. Check out my comment #133. The AP has helpfully posted the documents that CBS faxed to the White House, which are a little different from what CBS posted alongside their own story. Why? How?

307 Globular Cluster  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:25:48pm

#221 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs


LMFAO.

308 foreign devil  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:33:04pm

10:30 pm est: CNN's Aaron Brown reporting that the Weekly Standard is reporting the memos are fake. Then he goes on to run a video clip with Judy Woodroof doing the voice-over in which she talks about the memos as if they weren't already under suspicion.

309 rastajenk  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:41:40pm

I have a question about "CYA." Is that an acronym that's been around for 30 years? Since it's military, I guess it could be, but it seems to speak to another era, at least in my mind.

310 Dave Grindle  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:49:11pm

For all of the doubters out there who can't figure out that the 'th' is word superscript, I have typed the document myself in word. You CAN get the 'th' to bump up higher in the line by clicking on the Format selection in the toolbar and then selecting Font. When the window opens, select the Character Spacing tab and under position select Raised. This will adjust the 'th' up just like in the real.. errrr... forgery.

Happy Pecking!

Kerry is going down on this one, it's only a matter of time!

311 radford  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:50:49pm

For all of you asking about kerning:


"In typography, kerning refers to adjusting the space between characters, especially by placing two characters closer together than normal. Kerning makes certain combinations of letters, such as WA, MW, TA, and VA, look better.

'Only the most sophisticated word processors and desktop publishing systems perform kerning. Normally, you can activate or deactivate kerning for particular fonts."


Note the "clever" quotes.

john

312 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:55:10pm

Okay, I'm late to rejoin the party, but here goes. In the last few hours, I've listened to Hannity and Mark Levin on WABC in NYC. Both had on a tape of an interview with Killian's son. His son categorically denied that the documents came from his family and that position is confirmed in a WaPo article, [Link: www.washingtonpost.com...] , where his wife states essentially the same thing. They both state that Killian didn't keep personal records at home, would have been stupid to keep any kind of memo such as the one entitled CYA.

On one document, the son was pretty clear that he believed it to be a forged name/signature.

After doubts about the documents began circulating on the Internet yesterday morning, The Post contacted several independent experts who said they appeared to have been generated by a word processor. An examination of the documents by The Post shows that they are formatted differently from other Texas Air National Guard documents whose authenticity is not questioned.

William Flynn, a forensic document specialist with 35 years of experience in police crime labs and private practice, said the CBS documents raise suspicions because of their use of proportional spacing techniques. Documents generated by the kind of typewriters that were widely used in 1972 space letters evenly across the page, so that an "i" uses as much space as an "m." In the CBS documents, by contrast, each letter uses a different amount of space.

While IBM had introduced an electric typewriter that used proportional spacing by the early 1970s, it was not widely used in government. In addition, Flynn said, the CBS documents appear to use proportional spacing both across and down the page, a relatively recent innovation. Other anomalies in the documents include the use of the superscripted letters "th" in phrases such as "111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron," Bush's unit.

"It would be nearly impossible for all this technology to have existed at that time," said Flynn, who runs a document authentication company in Phoenix.

Other experts largely concurred. Phil Bouffard, a forensic document examiner from Cleveland, said the font used in the CBS documents appeared to be Times Roman, which is widely used by word-processing programs but was not common on typewriters.

CBS officials insisted that the network had done due diligence in checking out the authenticity of the documents with independent experts over six weeks. The senior CBS official said the network had talked to four typewriting and handwriting experts "who put our concerns to rest" and confirmed the authenticity of Killian's signature.

The doubts about the documents left the White House and the Bush campaign in a state of suspended animation, with Bush aides encouraging doubts about the documents but conceding that the possibility that they were forged seemed too good to be true. White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said that officials there had not attempted to authenticate the documents but simply released copies "provided to us by CBS in the interests of openness."

The Bush administration's strategy yesterday was to let news organizations raise doubts and conduct forensic examinations, without taking an official position on whether the documents were genuine.

"It's clear in reviewing the documents that they do nothing to change the fact that the president served honorably, and was proud of his service in the Air National Guard," Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said.

313 Peter Verkooijen  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:55:38pm

#306 David Mitchell,

OK, I compared the documents and see your point. Why is the blacked out address and the underlining missing from the AP version? Which one is supposed to be the original? Why would CBS put a version with underlinings online when they have a clean original? Weird...

314 Stop Hillary  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 5:57:12pm

Read this:

[Link: www.theiowachannel.com...]

Then don't hesitate to email Sen. Harkin with your views. I asked him when I might hear his very prompt and public apology to the President and the nation. I also advised him that based on the lies and near treason of the Dems, I would never vote for one again, not even for dogcatcher.

Not holding my breath for his apology though.

315 Stop Hillary  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:00:13pm

#2 Buckaroo -- "Question -- how do we force CBS to address this????"

You can't in any meaningful way without violating the McCain Feingold Act. That's the problem. Our emails don't amount to a hill of beans and since you are prohibited from raising money and spending it to get the word out 60 days before the election, you have to rely on CBS to be completly honest about this. Does that make you feel better?

316 Ol' Southern Boy  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:02:13pm

"CYA" has been around for a long time in military parlance. I heard it back in the '70s when I first went in.

However, I find it odd that an officer would use it in the "subject" line of a memo. Professionals wouldn't admit on official correspondence that they're covering their ass (professionals solve problems, not document that they're dodging them). More convincingly, the "subject" line would simply say "Lt Bush."

Also, it should be a "memo for record" (MFR), not "memo to file." That's been standard in the Air Force since Curtis LeMay was a corporal.

Also, what's an "OETR?" The Air Force had (still does) training reports (TRs), Letters of Evaluation (LOEs), and Officer Effectiveness Reports (OERs). I've never heard of an OETR. And I've done a buttload of officer fitness reports.

In the Air Force, the abbreviation for group ( the intermediate echelon between a wing and a squadron) is "GP," not "Grp." That jumps out at me. Someone's not familiar with Air Force nomenclature.

"I'll backdate but won't rate" is pure BS. See my entry #297 above. The colonel has to write a performance report, by regulation.

317 Peter Verkooijen  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:04:05pm

OT

#304 Sergio, Yes, welcome to LGF new readers!

If you want to read a piece of literature that has more depth, drama and relevance than most fiction, try this thread:
The Dutch Zell Miller

318 lawhawk  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:04:21pm

Sorry if this was posted earlier as well:

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

319 David Mitchell  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:05:07pm

Congratulations, Mr. Verkooijen; you're the second person in the world to notice it — as far as I know. Why would there be multiple versions of these documents? I don't know.

320 Pickle  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:05:32pm

The only way to get CBS to acknowledge this is by getting the other media networks to publicize the forgery. That may work with Fox, but good luck getting anyone else on side. The leftmedia protects their own, "rivals" or not.

321 Stop Hillary  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:07:10pm

#292 Peter V -- "#282 Buckaroo, ABC only reported an AP release on comments from Killian's son and the story ends with this devastating paragraph:


The White House distributed the four memos from 1972 and 1973 after obtaining them from CBS News. The White House did not question their accuracy."

Funny, just today, I distributed documents to the White House showing that the Jesus Christ had arrived for the second coming and was holding a press conference in Salt Lake City. The White House did not question their accuracy.

By ABC journalistic standards for truth, they had better get a stringer on out to Salt Lake pronto!

322 CrusaderGirl  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:07:19pm

Has anyone seen this yet?

It's a Newsmax article purporting to be an admission from someone claiming to be Ben Barnes' daughter. Amy Barnes says she knows her father was probably the forger.

Well, that blows into dust my speculation that it was some punk kid.

If it does end up being Ben Barnes, or any Kerry aide or major financial supporter, then it not only shows a monumental arrogance (one that caused total blindness), it shows complete depravity on the part of the opposition.

Democrats better hope it was some punk kid and not one of their own.

323 IWuvLGF  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:13:25pm

Q: What's the frequency, Kenneth?

A: Oh, I manufacture a big lie story every 20 years or so.

324 Peter Verkooijen  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:13:57pm

#322 CrusaderGirl:

Amy Barnes says she knows her father was probably the forger. Well, that blows into dust my speculation that it was some punk kid.


Wow. That sort of makes sense. I was wondering about this. A punk kid would never use default MS settings to produce such a forgery - a middle aged guy like Barnes would...

325 Stop Hillary  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:18:47pm

THIS JUST IN!

"erry McCauliffe has just retained the services of 10,000 chimpanzees and 10,000 IBM Executive Typewriters in an effort to prove that within two months of continuous typing they can produce a memo that will identically mirror a Microsoft Word version of the CBS National Guard memo, complete with Times New Roman font, wordwrapping and "th" subscripts.

PETA is strongly objecting to the abuse of Chimpanzees in the experiment, requesting that idle Howard Dean supporters be used instead."


Honest! You can't make this stuff up!

326 addison  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:20:39pm

#310 Dave Grindle,

The thing is, the raised 'th' occurs when it prints, so how it appears in Word is not really the issue.

Anyway, whoever wrote the document seemed quite the novice at Word. You can see where they were able to obviate the superscript autoformat by obviously adding a space between the number and suffix (111 th, 1 st). In one document, they were able to trick Word twice using the space technique but the third time they forgot the space and got 111th with the 'th' raised.

[Don't know how to do superscripts in Charles' system. The normal <sup> tags don't work.]

327 GWB2004  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:25:34pm

#322 - Here is the link for the WBAP audio of the Amy Barnes call: Link

Also - Drudge is reporting "CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned..."

328 bk  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:26:28pm

Here is the latest from Yahoo! Yahoo Story - AP

Drudge! has a new story that has shows CBS is going Nuts!

MSM is getting VERY OLD!

BK

329 CrusaderGirl  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:27:48pm

#324

If it's a Democratic operative, the question then becomes: Why?

1. Why would you do it? (That may seem easy for cynics, but I do believe that most Democrats would not do this)

2. Why would you do such a shabby job (they must have worked alone because a second conscience may have mitigated this act)

3. Was it done with a leaders' tacit knowledge? To garner favor?

330 Ol' Southern Boy  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:28:42pm

I went and looked at the PDF files on the CBS website, then dug out my old copy of "Tongue and Quill," the Air Force's guidebook on correspondence. Some more discrepancies:

- The signature elements are wrong. The standard Air Force signature block is two lines. Has been, since I can remember. For example:

JOHN P. DOE, Lt Col, USAF
Commander

- The "memo" to Bush directing him to report for a physical is not standard Air Force correspondence. The correct format (especially if you're officially directing someone to do something) back then would be in the format of an official letter, not an MFR. Ex:

FROM: Commander, 147 FIS

TO: 1LT George Bush

SUBJECT: Physical [or whatever]

- Also, the "Memorandum For" format used in one of the memos is a change to Air Force correspondence that came about in the early '90s. It replaced the "FROM / TO / SUBJECT" format cited above.

Another thing: When correspondence is filed, it's initialed (usually in one of the upper corners) with a number that indicates which folder in the unit file plan it's supposed to go. Any half-assed admin clerk knows that. That's another inspectable item that will earn an IG write-up.

Shit, I'm not an admin weenie, and I'm picking up on this.

331 Stop Hillary  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:39:39pm

#327 gwb2004 -- "Also - Drudge is reporting "CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned..."

The following is a quote attributed to CBS in the Drudge Report:

"Rather, who anchored the segment presenting new information on the president's military service, will personally correct the record on-air, if need be, the source explained from New York."

. . . "on air if need be". What pieces of shit are they. During war they slander the President, accuse him of being AWOL, do it based on forged documents and then little Danny boy gets off with a trite silly insincere smug smirking ass apology? What about firing his worthless biased ass?

What about giving him the Howell Raines heave ho and over you go?

What about investigating the links between the Democrat party and CBS and proscecuting the both for illegal campaign contributions? Fucking 60 Minutes and all of CBS News is nothing but a campaign contribution for the Dems.

Sorry for the vitriol, but I see it coming, a tidy little apology from Dan, and then "nevermind" and back to lying and smearing the President and the GOP like the Dem lackeys that CBS has been doing for over thirty years.

Screw you Dan Rather you lying sack of shit and screw CBS.

332 Mush4brains  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:40:52pm

Like others, I noticed the odd P.O.Box 34567.

A quick search on Google for "p.o.box 34567" and "houston" finds:
[Link: www.hd.co.harris.tx.us...]

...which shows this address belonging to an Ashland Oil company, 1991ish. Now, this is totally uncorroborated and insufficient in a court of law, but it's more than enough to start a new conspiracy theory...

- Mush

333 Rant Wraith  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:43:19pm

Even the clowns over at DU think this is a forgery. They are going apeshit. CBS is melting down and DU is wigged out. It's a two-for-one scandal.

334 Tex  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:47:05pm

Not only are the documents probably forgeries, but CBS can't even get the basic facts right. Barnes could never have used his position as Lt. Gov to facilitate W's entry into the Guard because Bush enter the service a YEAR BEFORE BARNES BECAME LT GOV. Check out the story here. (Scroll to top of page)

[Link: www.chronicallybiased.com...]

335 Captain Nemo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:58:42pm

I'm giddy.
aaaaaaaaeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!
I really do think this is historic.
Bravo, Charles.
Where's that tipjar?
I've never tipped a blog before, but Charles deserves it, and he's gonna need the pennies to buy more bandwidth

336 Stop Hillary  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 6:58:59pm

Folks, it is getting worse in some ways. ABC announced that Nightline is taking up the possible forgery angle. But, the focus is on the statements of the widow and son of the deceased Texas NG officer to whom the memos are attributed. Only in the last line of the press release did it say that some experts are contending that the memo was produced on a computer, not a typewriter.

ABC is going to play the family angle, which cannot be conclusive as no one in the family can testify to a certainty that the memos were not in fact written. ABC is setting up the strawman to create doubt but leave it as a 50/50 proposition. Meanwhile, the real story, the story that Charles broke is getting short shrift.

It gets shorted because the MSM oligarchy cannot admit they are lazy biased Dem frauds and the internet is superior for real news.

This is disgraceful. What is more is that the corporate types at ABC and NBC are so Democrat politicized that they will give aid and comfort to CBS instead of eviscerating them. God, what pussies. If ever there were a corporate shark at ABC or NBC, now would be time for him to put a hurt on CBS that would take decades to recover. But it won't happen as BDS has mind control over the media.

337 Californican  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:03:58pm

Ok, Im usually not one to get really upset over CBS's blantant bias, but tonight, I'm livid! That bastard Dan Rather, knowing that the documents were fake; he HAD to know after todays blacklash from here, Hannity and the rest of the blogosphere, and he ran the frickin story again tonight!! #@%**!!! I'm about to blow a gasket. My husband even told me that I needed to cool down. How dare CBS run this story, with screen shots of the memos that have been PROVEN to be fake. BASTARDS!!!! I'm writing a letter. (as if it would do any good) If Dan Rather was sitting in front of me right now, I'd bitch slap him good.

338 Greg F  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:12:31pm

Washington Post is breaking the story.

Experts consulted by a range of news organizations pointed out typographical and formatting questions about four documents as they considered the possibility that they were forged. The widow of the National Guard officer whose signature is on the bottom of the documents also disputed their authenticity.
339 Stop Hillary  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:12:58pm

I just visited the Tip Jar and encourage others to do so as well.

The MSM will cover for CBS on this with some success. But today was a major victory for free speech and thought, something the Dems and the MSM cannot abide.

So, pitch in and help support the founder of the feast.

340 Stop Hillary  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:21:54pm

Oh and don't forget to visit Sen. Tom Harkin's website and express your views. Based on the CBS story, he publicly accused our President of being a liar. Don't pass up the opportunity to demand a public retraction of his outrageous remarks.

Hey Senator Tom, who exactly is the liar here?

341 zulubaby  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:25:41pm

Rant Wraith (#333)

If Rove was that kind of diabolical genius, we would be doing better in Iraq.

LOL!

Their next step is to accuse the Mossad.

342 Dave Brown  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:50:00pm

Bush Guard Memos Questioned
Thursday, September 09, 2004
AP

"DALLAS  — The authenticity of newly unearthed memos stating that George W. Bush failed to meet standards of the Texas Air National Guard (search) during the Vietnam War was questioned Thursday by the son of the late officer who reportedly wrote the memos."

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

343 Dave Brown  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:51:15pm

Bush Guard Memos Questioned
Thursday, September 09, 2004
AP

"DALLAS  — The authenticity of newly unearthed memos stating that George W. Bush failed to meet standards of the Texas Air National Guard (search) during the Vietnam War was questioned Thursday by the son of the late officer who reportedly wrote the memos."

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

344 Buckaroo  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 7:52:34pm

# 340 S H

Does Harkin really think he's going to get a Kerry cabinet seat or what? Can he even deliver Iowa at this point?

345 biff  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:02:52pm

Nightline just covered this issue. While raising the possibility of forgery, ABC gave a highly detailed recitation of the contents of the documents. On balance, the segment was still a smear of Bush's ANG service.

346 Shinken  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 8:55:32pm

#142

18 - 5000 Longmont #8 in Houston Tx. does not exist

Does not exist...says who?

[Link: maps.yahoo.com...]

mapquest gives up the same location

347 Nahanni  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:47:01pm

#322

Ben Barnes is a LARGE donor to various Democratic campaigns.

To quote Gomer Pyle; "Surprise, surprise, surprise!"

Have a look.

[Link: www.opensecrets.org...]

348 JonathanD  Thu, Sep 9, 2004 9:57:22pm

Could someone please point me to the pdf file that has the fake, Charles's mock up of it, and their overlay?

I'd really appreciate it. Yes, I tried search for pdf.

Regards,
Jonathan

349 Shinken  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 1:31:46am

#348

allleged memo
[Link: homepage.mac.com...]

reproduction in word
[Link: homepage.mac.com...]

superimposition
[Link: homepage.mac.com...]

350 may05  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 2:33:00am

#255 Security Mom

I smell eurotrash.

You guys are talking about trash talk....?!!

ain't lgf the place where you get "blessed" with insults once you express a "non-zionist" view??!

351 Smit  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 3:07:01am

#255 Security Mom - may05 is posting from Lebanon, so could be Lebanese, Syrian or possibly French.

352 Thom  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 3:08:37am

#350 may05

Not necessarily. But stupidity - which you display in abundance - will get you roasted. Neither are we big fans of terrorists, so that's two strikes against you.

353 may05  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 3:08:52am

257 Cam

Charles has tracked this twat before. IIRC, he said that he was from Lebanon, or some damned place.

Are you sure?!

354 may05  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 3:35:49am

352 Thom

Not necessarily. But stupidity - which you display in abundance - will get you roasted.

Define stupidity...

Just because I oppose your view, I am a stupid?!
Thinking your way, I may accuse you of stupidity... but i don't, insulting is fultile in discussions...

Neither are we big fans of terrorists, so that's two strikes against you.

I thought you are a fan of israel's state terrorism...

Anyway, I've seen more terrorists fans here than any other place... Also, not all terrorism fans are stupid, Bush & Cheney Corp. are supporting terrorism for interests.....

355 zuckerlilly  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 3:41:47am

#183 hintervor 9/9/2004 04:55PM PST


>And that is the only reason: You were not cooperating with him. What you did was: You said to someone "autochtoner antisemit". Then W.T. said to you: "Stop that". Then you erased that. 3 Hours later you used it again + other insulting things, like calling someone a madman. You even threatened someone.

False. I´m sick of his sniveling e-mails I got from him in the last two and a half years, I´m realy sick of it to read, how oppressed he is by a lot of participants. This is a well educated middle age man, with a doctorate in german language and therefore I apologised for my temper with a well known german ballad about a swearing bishop.

You even can´t spell the word „autochthon“ (engl.: autochthonal) and you don´t know the meaning of the word. This is a well known term in connection with antisemtism. I know the background of this woman, she needs this hate to feel better not because of political issues. And even the participant, who is responsible that I´m moderated, copy & pasted an article by Moshe Zimmermann in the Forum where this term is used.

This term was used serveral times bevore by participants of the Forum to classify anti-Semitic participants, without a word by the SysOp.

You are a liar, when you assure, that I ever would have called a female-participant in the Forum a „Madam“. This is maybe your standard not mine. I never would insult a woman like this. Show me, where I ever called another female participant a „Madam“. Never, never, never.

>Nobody needs someone in a political forum. What you can say against it is, that he [W.T.] has never complained serious against you in all the 2 years.

Because he didn´t have any cause.

>The things you've said here about the opinion of lgf is absolutely untrue. Even the fotos of Charles Baby where shown there. But your insulting and qualityless style has stolen all reputation of the material.

First: There are no fotos of Charles` baby. What this participant „shual“ linked to, was the baby from another blogger dressed with a LFG-shirt. And he linked it with a „they are crazy“ and with the intention to defame LGF as radicals. You are a liar.

>Quality! If you [as I said to Charles] show up as the ambassador of lgf on a website, you should be working 100% solid, because you represent a "system", not your own thinking. I showed "leo the dissident" some works of you and he said: "This must be a left troll that pretends to be an antigerman."

You write about quality? Y O U???? You don´t know the meaning of the words, you object. But you are outraged. You write about qualitiy? Y O U???? You write about the fotos of Charles´ baby, but there are no fotos of Charles´ baby. You write about qualitiy??? Y O U???? You write about, that I should have called another female participant a „Madam“, but you will never be able to testify, because I´ve never done it. You write about qualitiy?
Y O U????

>Learn something from it.

YOU can learn a lot from me and the first one is not to be a liar.

sugarlilly

356 Thom  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 4:28:49am

#354 may05

Define "stupidity?

#354 defines it quite well.

Anyhoo, aren't there some Hizb'Allah terrorists you should be servicing right now?

357 zuckerlilly  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 4:33:04am

Addition to 183 hintervor 9/9/2004 04:55PM PST :

>Do not copy and paste so much.

False When the Sysop of the SpOn-Forum objected the copy & paste "culture" (he didn´t even mention me with a single word, but told it to all participants), I told him, that my text was not available in the Internet because I had excerpted and typed it by myself from


Gerd Koenen, Das rote Jahrzehnt - Confessions of a Former Revolutionary

>Do not switch to "autopilot" [= talk about the topic and
not about anything else.]

False With not a single word he mentioned me:

sysop - 03:46pm Sep 7, 2004 CEST (#302 of 537)
Redaktion SPIEGEL ONLINE

Bitte beim Thema bleiben und nicht ständig auf den üblichen Autopiloten schalten. Danke.

And he did it before, at a time, where I had no posting in this thread, also without mentioning a single participant:

sysop - 12:53pm Sep 4, 2004 CEST (#40 of 537)
Redaktion SPIEGEL ONLINE

Bitte die Themenstellung dieses Stranges beachten und nicht auf "Terror-Autopilot" schalten. Danke.

So what?

It is, in my oppinion, oddly enough, when a Sysop doesn´t want to have discussed the international islamic terrorism in a "chechnya-thread". But he has no problem with, when the USA and Bush accused for the terrorism from Chechnya.

So what?

sugarlilly

358 zuckerlilly  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 4:47:49am

Sorry, I lost the word "are" ;-))

But he has no problem with, when the USA and Bush are accused for the terrorism from Chechnya.

359 jjag  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 6:06:51am

If someone doubts these are forgeries then they should explain the use of the word "feedback".

I don't recall that term being used anywhere until the late 80's (at the earliest). My recollection is it became widely used in the techonolgy sphere, first.

I'd imagine it would be pretty easy to ask the widow or son if they remember their father EVER using that term.

360 YouGottaBeKidding  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 8:06:57am

Someone mentioned that typewriters didn't do superscripts. However, one of the official Bush documents (a form that is filled out using a typewriter) does have such a superscript so some typewriters could at least do th.

----------

Proportional typewriter--if you did not want to full-justify, you only had to type once. These documents aren't justified so they THEORETICALLY could have been typed on a typewriter.

However, I don't think so.

I had a light bulb moment this morning. I've seen brief mentions of the centering of the adresses on two of the memos but noone really drew any conclusions.

Okay, let's suppose that we have one of those magic circa 1972 magic typewriters that typed proportional print and the print EXACTLY matches Times New Roman in Windows. (Notice I say "magic" because I'm convinced that this typewriter does not exist.)

With standard typewriters, to center, you tab to the center and backspace for every other letter. Lines with even numbers of letters are perfectly centered, but lines with odd numbers aren't.

How would you center with a proportional typewriter? The backspace wouldn't work consistently because the letters are all different widths.

Okay, so if you had a memory typewriter, you'd type a line of text and it would calculate how to center it and then print it. But did the proportional typewriter available at that time have memory? I doubt it. Furthermore, if it did, then you wouldn't have had to type a document twice, you could have typed a line and the typewriter could have calculated the spacing. That would be a simple computer. Very expensive. I don't think this magic typewriter existed, but if it did, it doesn't seem likely that the TANG would have one, that a man whose widow says he didn't type it would use it, and that other official documents aren't done in that type.

-------------

I haven't seen anyone talking about the two memos with the addreses at the top. I typed both those documents. In order to get the word wrap correct, I had to set my margins at .9". That line length on 8" wide paper (rather than 8.5") would require margins of .7" and .6". What are the odds of someone using strange margins like that, and on documents created three months apart (May 4 and August 1).

-----------------

I realize that these things are a bit esoteric, but they are just more nails in the coffin.

361 hintervor  Fri, Sep 10, 2004 2:29:49pm

@ zuckerlilly

Machen wirs auf Deutsch. Unser Abtausch interessiert hier eh keinen. Und Ihre Opferhaltung auch nicht. Jeder ist allein für sich verantwortlich. Ihre Behauptung eine Verschwörung wäre im Gange gewesen unerheblich und wohl auch nicht belegbar. Deine strategischen Mängel und Fehler sind archiviert.

Worum es mir geht kann ich Ihnen sagen: Ich wünsche mir in entscheidenden Positionen im Internet Menschen die verantwortungsbewußt mit ihrer Rolle umgehen. Dazu wird man wohl einen Text lesen können, der nicht nur Sie selbst, sondern auch andere Persönlichkeiten der Öffentlichkeit betrifft.

Allerdings bekommen Sie hier und jetzt die unschätzbare Gelegenheit einer Erklärung.

"Interview mit Hexose" - Teil I

1. Unter ihrem Pseudonym finden sich sicherlich hunderte Verweise auf die Webseite "Die Jüdische". Warum verlinken Sie diese Seite?

2. Verstehen Sie das wenn jemand die Jüdische hunderte Mal zitiert und niemand sonst, sie eine Verantwortungsposition gegenüber der Jüdischen einnehmen? Wenn ja, wie sieht ihre Vorstellung von Verantwortung aus.

3. Momentan werden auf der Jüdischen 11 Übersetzungen des israelischen Journalisten Yoel Marcus angeboten. Sie nennen diesen Mann einen "empathielosen, entmenschlichten Abschaum." Ich will NICHT wissen warum. Verstehen Sie, das ein neutraler Mensch denkt: "Warum verlinkt diese Frau eine Webseite, die auf "..." steht?" Können sie uns Auskunft geben welche strategische Position hinter diesem Verhalten steckt?

4. Können sie mir in kurzen Worten und ohne Platitüden ["Kampf dem Antisemitismus"] ihre Ansicht über ihre eigene Funktion innerhalb des Spektrums der Antideutschen beschreiben.

5. War Ihnen ihre hervorragende Stellung als "freie" Teilnehmerin an einem derartig medienintensiven Unternehmen wie dem spiegel bewußt?

6. Sind sie bereit für die Zukunft Änderungen an ihrem taktischen Verhalten, Modifizierungen an ihren Textbausteinen vorzunehmen? Wenn ja, welche?

7. Wie bewerten Sie Ihre Erfahrungen und Ihre Arbeit bezüglich Ihrer Verdienste für das Land Israel. Was konnten Sie in 2 1/2 Jahren für Israel tun?

Besten Dank im Voraus

362 zuckerlilly  Wed, Sep 15, 2004 11:38:41am

# hintervor (oder wie auch immer)

>Worum es mir geht kann ich Ihnen sagen: Ich wünsche mir in entscheidenden Positionen im Internet Menschen die verantwortungsbewußt mit ihrer Rolle umgehen. Dazu wird man wohl einen Text lesen können, der nicht nur Sie selbst, sondern auch andere Persönlichkeiten der Öffentlichkeit betrifft.

Sagen Sie das jenen, die im SpOn wochenlang andere Teilnehmer beschimpfen können (Schlampe, Drecksau, blödes Arschloch etc.) ohne moderiert zu werden und erst den Sysop mit Schwein bezeichnen müssen, damit dieser reagiert. Ob er sich seiner Verantwortung bewußt ist? Schließlich tauchten diese Beiträge in den verschiedenen Zeitungs-foren dann als copy & paste-Beiträge auf (mit meinem vollen Namen und meinem Wohnort) und erforderten meinerseits sowoh eine Menge Zeit als auch Telefongebühren um diese wieder entfernen zu lassen.

>1. Unter ihrem Pseudonym finden sich sicherlich hunderte Verweise auf die Webseite "Die Jüdische". Warum verlinken Sie diese Seite?

Sie haben es nicht mal nachgeprüft und reden bereits von "hunderten". Ist das Ihre Form von redlicher Diskussion?

>2. . Verstehen Sie das wenn jemand die Jüdische hunderte Mal zitiert und niemand sonst, sie eine Verantwortungsposition gegenüber der Jüdischen einnehmen? Wenn ja, wie sieht ihre Vorstellung von Verantwortung aus.

???? Schon wieder die Übertreibung. Haben Sie Probleme damit, daß ich die "Jüdische" verlinke? Und wenn ja, welche?

>3. Momentan werden auf der Jüdischen 11 Übersetzungen des israelischen Journalisten Yoel Marcus angeboten. Sie nennen diesen Mann einen "empathielosen, entmenschlichten Abschaum." Ich will NICHT wissen warum. Verstehen Sie, das ein neutraler Mensch denkt: "Warum verlinkt diese Frau eine Webseite, die auf "..." steht?" Können sie uns Auskunft geben welche strategische Position hinter diesem Verhalten steckt?

i) Wenn eine Zeitung Übersetzungen eines Journalisten anbietet, hat das noch nichts damit zu tun, daß sie auch die Meinung dieses Journalisten vertritt. So hat der Spiegel schon oft Journalisten zu Wort kommen lassen, die im krassen Gegensatz zur Redaktionslinie standen. Man nennt so etwas auch Meinungsfreiheit und Informationsfreiheit. Ein Fremdwort wohl für Sie.

ii) Ich habe im Forum deutlich gemacht, was ich und warum von Yoel Marcus halte. Ein Mensch, der aus politischen Gründen über die Nöte und Ängste eines Terroropfers hinwegtrampelt und mit brutalen Worten zum Schweigen bringt um die politische Angenda nicht in Gefahr zu bringen, ist nicht mehr und nicht weniger als ein Stalinist. Dieser Mensch hat mit "sozial" überhaupt nichts am Hut.

>4. Können sie mir in kurzen Worten und ohne Platitüden ["Kampf dem Antisemitismus"] ihre Ansicht über ihre eigene Funktion innerhalb des Spektrums der Antideutschen beschreiben.

Ich habe keine Funktion innerhalb der "Antideutschen" goutiere jedoch in vielen Fällen sowohl ihr Eintreten für Israel als auch ihre überaus intellektuellen Einlassungen zur "Neuen Linken". Intellektualität kann man jedoch von der übrigen Linken nicht behaupten.

>5. War Ihnen ihre hervorragende Stellung als "freie" Teilnehmerin an einem derartig medienintensiven Unternehmen wie dem spiegel bewußt?

Mir schon, die Frage ist, ob es anderen Teilnehmern bewußt war, die sich offenbar nur +ber Beschimpfungen (s.o.) artikulieren können.

>6. Sind sie bereit für die Zukunft Änderungen an ihrem taktischen Verhalten, Modifizierungen an ihren Textbausteinen vorzunehmen? Wenn ja, welche?

Ich bin nicht mehr bereit shual, an diesem Primitiv -Forum teilzunehmen.

>7. Wie bewerten Sie Ihre Erfahrungen und Ihre Arbeit bezüglich Ihrer Verdienste für das Land Israel. Was konnten Sie in 2 1/2 Jahren für Israel tun?

Sehr viel und deshalb genieße ich auch höchste Unterstützung. Was haben Sie für Israel getan?

Dazu, daß keine Ihrer Verleumdungen aus # 183 stimmt, haben Sie nichts zu sagen? Wo sind die Belege für Ihre Verleumdungen?


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