Ausome work!!!

Can I be first twice? With mispellings?

Isn't Dan Rather supposed to be retiring soon? He must be livid that he's going to be going out on this note. It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Heh.

All those reporters, growing up on Woodward and Bernstein, fantasizing about bringing down a President.

Now, a new generation will grow up, fantasizing about being Charles, and bringing down a network.

Congratulations!!!!

(And all the others)

Too bad about the vistor count munging. I was thinking it simply turned over at every 100 grand.

This blog is on the bleeding edge!

I doubt even Rather will be able to contain his wrath if he learns the Kerry campaign rolled him.

That assumes he was not in on it ;-/

game - set - match

Behold the power of the Blogosphere!

This is the blog version of a hit single ;-)

I gotta say, I didn't have a chance to look at this story too hard today - I saw LGF was going crazy, but only had time to lurk for a few quick seconds - and didn't think this story was such a big deal - at a first, quick glance.

But watching other media outlets (ABC / WaPo) pursue this story aggressively, and CBS in full damage control mode, it's taken on a life of it's own.

Another coup for Charles - excellent work.

I know I'll be sleeping better than Dan Rather tonight.

If only it was Leslie Stahl.

Where were CBS fact checkers? I can't write a magazine article without a list of cites longer than the piece -- and every one gets checked.

In my best Cartman voice (which is pathetic), "This is so sweet!"

"LGF kicks ass"

You're rollin for gold Charles.

I wonder if anyone at CBS will be sleeping tonight.

Susan Estrich may regret her threat of a smear campaign. It may have backfired big time. The truth will win in the end. Just look at the lefty comments on Drums site and you will see implosion and hanging on to lies even when the fact are obvious to even the Post and ABC. Cheers to all.

The dems can not even fake a document.

Amazing work, Charles and all of the rest. This story could actually influence the election of a president. A big blog bombshell! In my, and others, tiny little ways, we are a part of this, and proud to be here. Yay!

The best thing about this is that it will insulate Bush from the many many smear campaigns and October surprises that you and I know are being planned by the media for the coming two months.

The TANG story was never going to get the ABB crowd much traction. But their next fairy tale, and the one after that, will be greeted by that much more skepticism because average voters will remember that lying, forging and giving even top Democratic fundraisers free air time for their "tell all relevations" aren't even beyond the pale.

And of course, Dan Rather (who personally pushed this story and used his influence to ram it through at CBS) is forever discredited as a serious journalist. His career is effectively over, and he is professionally as well as personally disgraced. Which is as it should be.

Charles:

Don't sell yourselves short. The Dan has also been busted by the WaPo. Money quote:

After doubts about the documents began circulating on the Internet yesterday morning, The Post contacted several independent experts who said they appeared to have been generated by a word processor. An examination of the documents by The Post shows that they are formatted differently from other Texas Air National Guard documents whose authenticity is not questioned.

You, PowerLine, and others all deserve a big pat on the back. This is the biggest kill the blogosphere has made to date.

So who is SKerrilous's Donald Segretti? Or did jfk join Segretti & his "Ratfuckers" band back during the 1972 election campaign?

Bruce you may be more right than i can imagine....

reynolds on that brainterminal video hits it on the head... he makes a comment about the new dean wermers of academia... the rebelion today is against an entrenched mindset that is at its heart far more totalitarian than "liberal."

the trend is that news is becoming a conversation we, the people, have with other people who have direct knowlede of events. there are millions of experts who can contribute to that conversation. crackpots can pipe up and sound off, and everyone gets to judge what people are saying and who they are saying they are.

dinosaurs like Rather will be around for awhile longer, but they are losing their absolute control over getting to "write the first draft of history."

the changes in the United States will be interesting to watch... but in the long run this will destabilize the remaining totalitarian regimes of the world. soviet communism collapsed in large part because people behind th eiron curtain became more and more aware of the truth about life in the west.

this was an enourmously important event. tail wind crushed the credibility of some CNN folks, but it took weeks to unravel that story. LGF and PowerLine were hammering the final nails in this things coffin before noon EST the day after it ran.

regards,

vtrtl

P.S. Message to Rather. You don't have the power to lie to me any more just because you think the lie serves a noble purpose.

I think bringing down Trent Lott was the biggest 'osphere achievement to date but this trumps that by far.

It's happening...we shall call it La Revolución Bloguista

Obviously the forgery was made by the Israeli spy CBS busted last week... oops... another blunder.

Hey CBS! You just can't get away with this shit anymore. There are people out there in the blogosphere who are watching you and checking on you and catching you. It's not like the old days when Walter Cronkite read the "news" and we nodded in agreement.

and it went down on a thrusday...

this story buries everthing over the weekend...

From the Drudge piece:

Rather, who anchored the segment presenting new information on the president's military service, will personally correct the record on-air, if need be, the source explained from New York.

"personally correct the record on-air"??? You've got to be shitting me. Once CBS completes their investigation (which should take about 2 minutes--thanks to Charles and others), Dan Rather needs to resign!

He is either a complete idiot, or a traitor conspiring to bring down the US President via fraud. Either way, how could he possibly sit behind the anchor desk on Election Night?

AlexM is right. Rather is toast. I bet that Rather's correction will get far more viewers than the original story and Bush will be effectively immune from any further attacks on this front.

But I don't think CBS or even Gunga-Dan was in on this. They are just so over-eager to bring down W that they are tripping over themselves to get the story to press. Plus reporters are lazy. I knew a lot of journalism students in college. I dated the sports page editor of a middle-market paper for a while and she and her staff were under-worked to say the least.

Hey Charles,
Some chick is taking credit for your moves. Check out this Foxnews story:

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Independent document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines (search) said the memos looked like they had been produced on a computer using Microsoft Word software, which wasn't available when the documents were supposedly written in 1972 and 1973.
Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences (search), pointed to a superscript — a smaller, raised "th" in "111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron" — as evidence indicating forgery.

Microsoft Word automatically inserts superscripts in the same style as the two on the memos obtained by CBS, she said.

"I'm virtually certain these were computer-generated," Lines said after reviewing copies of the documents at her office in Paradise Valley, Ariz. She produced a nearly identical document using her computer's Microsoft Word software.

Charles' document was totaly identical.

Rayra, I agree. Brill. What vtrtl said. Hear, hear!

This story won't bring down anyone, much less Dan Rather. Let's not be disproportionate about the impact.

17 U.S.C. sec. 1001

Statements or entries generally

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully -
(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;

shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

Five years. Guess that rules out working on Hillary's campaign in 2008.

But seriously, the general language of this law would hinder any case against the perpetrators. Also, the Justice Dept. may be hesitant to persue any prosecution which looks like media censorship. If anything, the criminal prosecution would be a plea bargain resulting a hefty fine.

A brief overview of other federal law shows that other statutes exist against forgery, but have a very narrow scope (attempts to steal money, false IDs, official certificates of discharge, etc.) and are not applicable to this very unique situation.

The documents proven fake in less than 24 hrs. The 'kerning' I think will be the decisive proof. Where were CBS fact checkers? Working really hard according to the WaPo

CBS officials insisted that the network had done due diligence in checking out the authenticity of the documents with independent experts over six weeks. The senior CBS official said the network had talked to four typewriting and handwriting experts "who put our concerns to rest" and confirmed the authenticity of Killian's signature.

Maybe CBS ought to invest in an internet connection.

The readers and viewers of the legacy media have been taking a shelling for all these years --it is only now, with the Blogosphere, that we have developed effective counterbattery fire.

I'm hitting the tip jar for LGF and Powerlineblog.

We need more ammo! Fire for effect!

great work Charles. All I can say is

ULULULULULULULU!!!!!!

A LLL type at work was trying to get under my skin today with this crap. Cant wait to ask him about this tomorrow.

We need to have another contest complete with special award... How about the CBS News Award for Truth and Accuracy in Reporting?

oh i don't think rather loses his job over this...

i just think the hemorrage of the broadcast network news departments will accelerate.

no to go all denbestian on everyone but position here is less important than momentum.

another note that someone made way back in the threads today.. this forgery was done by a younger person/staffer/functionary who had not the context to realize that in 1972 people did not dash off memos to self in word.

Thank you Charles

On the Dark side, within the last hour I watched CNN still reporting as gospel that these documents look very bad for the President.
It was a joy to check LGF and Drudge before going to bed and find out what was really happening.

A truly amazing day (again, if all pans out--part of me somehow still thinks it's too perfect and wonderful to believe).

I followed the story very closely today, and the way it seems to have unfolded (at least according to my perception is this):

At 8:59:43 PM PDT last night somebody named "Buckhead" raised the issue of proportional fonts on the Free Republic Board and said the documents looked like forgeries. He/she issued a clarion call for bloggers to go after the story.

Powerline linked to and elaborated on Buckhead's observations this morning, and LGF picked it up, developed it fully (with a thourough and exhaustive treatment and expert opinion) and together with Powerline absolutely IGNITED the blogosphere.

Then tonight, the mainstream media climbed aboard.

So Buckhead, some anonymous freeper, whoever you are, step forward and claim your prize.

You fired the "the shot that was heard around the world."

Congratulations, Charles!

Magnificent job.

Now that you've tasted MSM blood, how do you like it?

One of my lefty friends was over-joyed yesterday with the proof Bush lied to the American people. Her eyes almost bugged out from her panic of pleasure. For sure she will insist that the claims of this being forged is a plot against kerry.

#10 SoCalJustice,

Hell, man, I wouldn't mind sleeping with Leslie Stahl. I mean, one night hook-up, nothing serious.

She might get annoying after that :-P

[/Sarcasm, for the sarcasm impaired]

Charles

Mazel tov!

I was following it with a 4 year old in my lap who wanted to play her computer games, and she just doesn't care about her Nana getting all the news, when there are her myriad of CD's to be played, and she knows how to use the mouse, but needs my lap to reach! She already reads, so I am but an accessory! :)

If I see Sponge Pants Bob, Dora the Explorer, Blues Clues or Sesame St again, I will revert to a second childhood.

Watching this unfold all day was an adventure, and knowing that the same network and program that were once so revered have now become the National Enquirer of networks? After the 3 'book reports' 60 minutes did, they really should place it in the entertainment division, and Dan Rather has really lost the frequency!

When ABC posts this:Son of Late Officer Questions Bush Memos
, then you realize the impact that Charles' research and documentation have made...the MSM needs a real wake up call, as they are becoming totally irrelevent, and their declining figures (TV) and circulation figures are a cautionary tale.

LGF rules!

Funny, CNN doesnt seem to be mentioning amything about the documents being forgeries, not even that some people think they are.

Wonder whats up over there?

I like the synchronicity of the date -- so close to 9/11.

9/11 was the catalyst that changed Charles from a web techie blogger to a war on terror blogger. And now Charles is the catalyst helping expose the bias, lazyness, and dishonesty of the MSM.

I've not read every post on every thread so this may have been asked already but…

From where did the original CBS documents come? Who submitted them to CBS?

(#35) Protagonist

But seriously, the general language of this law would hinder any case against the perpetrators.

Also, CBS/Rather probably also fails the "knowingly" element.

Being an idiot or incompetent is a defense to that requirement.

#34 Patrizio,

Man you have it right. Don't get me wrong though. Today was huge for the internet versus the biased MSM. Some will notice and be persuaded. CBS will cover for Dan. A mild non apology apology will issue and then Dan and CBS News will be right back to coordinating "news" with the Democrats.

That's the scandal. Meanwhile, some citizens who wanted to pay for an advertisement to promoting the screening of an anti-Kerry documentary and the FEC shut them down. The little guy goes to jail for exercising his first amendment rights while CBS and the others balantantly shill for the Democrats, and McCain Feingold gives them a pass. Tell me why that is right?

The MSM is a mutlibillion dollar campaign contribution to the Democrats and Kerry and the law allows it. I tell you now that sometime in the future and I don't know when for sure, but the abuses of the media, enshrined and unassailable by McCain Feingold, will lead to violent insurrection in this Nation as citizens revolt for the sole purpose of regain the First Amendment rights stolen from them.

McCain Feingold must be repealed.

I'm not sure, but my contibution to Charles' tip jar tonight might put me in the slammer.

Yah, #37:

We used to write enraged letters to the editors who would most often ignore them or trash them. Now, Charles and company raises an issue, and results are immediate and noticable.

You all are right. There's a new kid on the media block, and it's called blogs.

P.S. Today I have foresworn all LL Media and am only using LGF for my news junkie fixes. (If Charles is sleeping, I may peek at Foxnews if my shakes get real bad)

vtrtl: oh i don't think rather loses his job over this...

Of course he doesn't. But he's retiring soon, for age reasons. And Rather has now become a name that will live in infamy.

Rather is only "shell-shocked" because he was caught. He is only "shell-shocked" untill he figures out how to blame his lies on Bush/vast-right-wing-conspiracy/etc.

According to CBS News they spent six weeks vetting these docs.

They admit to this, and are using it as a defense.

Ya gotta wonder.

I think the virtual Rosa Park of the blogg revolution just refused to give up her seat.

A butterfly's wing just started a breeze that lead to a hurricane on the other side of the world. And this is just the start.

#36 deadman

Subject: CYA

CBS wrote:

60 Minutes consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic.

CBS now says:

CBS officials insisted that the network had done due diligence in checking out the authenticity of the documents with independent experts over six weeks. The senior CBS official said the network had talked to four typewriting and handwriting experts "who put our concerns to rest" and confirmed the authenticity of Killian's signature.

Was the "a" in the original CBS report forged?

When Rather goes on TV to confess and eat fistfuls of his own dung this debacle will be bigger than Stephen Glass and Jason Blair put together. Bigger than the AP story on the crowd that didn't boo. Bigger than NBC faking the roll-over tests a few years back. If this story keeps developing like it has been it may very well cripple the longest running news magazine on TV and end the career of the man who replace Walter Cronkite. Holy Fubar Batman!

Geepers: According to CBS News they spent six weeks vetting these docs.

That's it. I'm applying for the job of fact checker at CBS. They could certainly do with someone more competent than the person currently there.

#51

Heh, I agree with the spirit of your post, but not with some of the specific things you mention. What I am quite surprised actually is that neither ABC, nor Drudge, nor the Washington Post (much less CBS itself) have mentioned Charles or LGF in their comments on the debunking of this document.

Godnight, Guys and Dolls. Time for me to check out of Hotel California :-P

I think the virtual Rosa Park of the blogg revolution just refused to give up her seat.

piglet, that is outstanding.

Congratulations, Charles!

Three cheers for our typographic St. George, who ventured out and slew the MSM dragon!

I want too say congrats to Charles and all the other great Bloggers out there that did there homework!!

Folks this is huge.......NEVER would this have happened in the days before the Interenet.....NEVER............and Thank God we have Bloggers, Various News Websites and others on the Net making the traitorous Media accountable!!

Absolutely Huge.......

I really don't know how we survived the Big Three for all those decades.....CBS, NBC and ABC and all there lies!!

Prepare all you Great Bloggers to be smeared by the Washington Post and NY Times and Time magazine in the near future!!

You have done yeoman work!!

Devon in Calgary

Wow! Is this big, or is this big.

Charles!! You da man! YOU da man! ;-)

#57 Oscar Jr.:

Was the "a" in the original CBS report forged?

Was the "a" proportionaly spaced? Was there kerning? Enquiring minds want to know!

--From where did the original CBS documents come? Who submitted them to CBS? --

We don't know.

I think that it would be hilarious is these forged documents were planted by someone just to get the LLLs to take them seriously.

another win for the little guy. Huzzah technology. Thank you Algore!

Well played Charls ol' chap :) I have to say that i kept track of the whole ordeal... and currently have no fingernails, best LGF's work ever.

May justice be served.... may the lizardoids rule... may Kerry eat crow... amen.

*raises glass*

Alloha boohoohoo Snackbar? ;)
heheheheheheheheheh...

Nightline ON NOW.

The counter just reset.

I am going to bed.

What a day.

Too bad Drudge/Fox/CNN/CBS et al will not take the blogosphere seriously.

CNN headline news at 1234 am eastern still going with the "new documents" show that Bush refused direct orders and didn't complete his duty yadda yadda yadda. It even mentions that Tom Harkins (of all people) was bashing

Nightline is just starting. They are definitly going after the story. Starting with Rather's voice reading the memo....

But looks like they are going to go after cheney for his speech the other day.

heh

in the days before the internet knucklead expendable junior staffers used typewriters to forge stuff...

im a long way from being a conspiracy nut... ut if i were the actual person who typed those letters out Id change my appearance and run... maybe blow up my aprtment building like in enemy of the state...

cause this thing is going to come back to somone...

and that someone is expendable.

I predict Howard Kurtz of the Washington Post might want to place the spotlight on Charles, if he does his job right

"Negative campaigning has never been a higher and lower art form." --Ted Koppel, Nightline

NTropy (#49),

From where did the original CBS documents come?

The term I've seen most refers to them as "unearthed" so I'm thinking maybe they're from that Indian village in Montana.

Nightline is just going to be about negative campaigning and "opposition research".

"Rather had a peach of a story".... Wow.

Oooooh, Ted leads with slapping CBS around.

The Karl Rove "false flag" conspiracy theory has already surfaced in the MSM:

"My old friend Dan Rather had himself a peach of a story last night on 60 Minutes..."--Ted Koppel

Killian's widow will be on Nightline tonight

Liquidating
Greedy
Forgers

The internets fact checking chainsaw of truth !!

#75 Patrizio,

You are talking about one of the L³'s in the main stream media doing their job right.

When's the last time that happened?

Hell's bells, when's the first time it happened?

I really must go feed and go to bed.

Independently of whether the document was a forgery or not, the fact that such a thing was the lead story for such a major news outlet when covering an electoral campaign is a side thing to observe.

It is tough to garner a "First" in this crowd. BUT, let me be the first to nominate DAN RATHER for the "Idiotarion of the Year Award".

And I cannot wait for our F&C cartoonists to take a nice big chunk out of Dan Rather's balatantly biased hide.

At least they mentioned that Barnes was a campaign fund raiser for John Kerry. Score another for the blogosphere

#75 Patrizio,

You are talking about one of the L³'s in the main stream media doing their job right.

When's the last time that happened?

Hell's bells, when's the first time it happened?

I really must go feed and go to bed.

This is looking pretty tough on CBS...

funny thing is...

i really can;t magine that this sotry would have hurt bush that badly if it were true.... even given the full court press of the MSM to hurt him with it...

bush is not running on his NG record.

hes running on his record over the last 3.5 years...

DAMN....

Nightline just mentioned "and websites"

# 81 Dar ul Harb

What Ted Koppel is thinking: "Dan, you bastard, you think I forgot when you cockblocked me from that cute chick at the Democratic convention back in '66. I've finally got your balls in a vice, BWHAHAHA!!!"

What Ted Koppel says: "My old friend Dan Rather had himself a peach of a story last night on 60 Minutes..."

BURN BABY!!!

#88

I know it won't be a popular opinion here, but I think the open nature of the media makes it highly capable of self-criticism and correction. I don't regard them in such bad terms as many here might.

Guys,
I can't get to a TV to watch Nightline. Can you give me the skinny as it happens?

Arghh! The suspense!

Congrats Chas. Nightline now calls LGF a "conservative website"

I AM SHOCKED!

#89

Dar ul Harb...

Dude, 2 words...

Tough.

;)

Ack, sorry about the double post.

I think most of us have had some difficulties today, traffic being what it has been.

Will the NYT follow suit?

lol

#83 justdanny

Funniest thing I've read all day, including WWN!

Now on to opposition research.

OK, i dont know if anyone has mentioned this, (probbly) BUT....

question: Was it coincidence that the forged papers are from a dead guy?

answer: ummm, no?

Here's my theory: They did some research, looking for a supervisor... - ANY supervisor that was (and this is important) DEAD so that they could create a virtual talking puppet from the past... :o Then create a series of "memos to self" (muahaha) that are related to actual known events (muahaha!), and embelilsh it with slanderous comments that NO ONE can claim is false because the guy is dead and it was a MEMO to SELF!! who can dispute it!!!!

NOTHING CAN GO WRONG! GENIUS!!!!!!!

Blatant sick LAME ASS scheme backfired!!!!!!! CBS, you dirty disshonest pathetic network. good riddance

Keep us posted on what's going on on Nightline. It's not on for another 95 minutes where I live, and I gots to go to bed soon. :-( What a day this has been, I'm whupped.

yes...Kerry is the FEAR UNCERTAINTY DOUBT CANDIDATE!

We should look into the type font of the Kerry silver star, purple heart and bronze star citations!

Nightline quotes Killian's wife and son and mentions the document experts. Damn! They are on to the fonts right now.

Mr. Rather, you really should step aside...

#66 Yishai

Yep, proportionally spaced and nicely kerned, but I'm not sure that's dispositive in this case. Heh.

Uh oh. We were wrong! Sorry, Charles.

CBS's crack investigative reporters have unearthed e-mails sent by Bush in 1973 which ADMIT that he was AWOL and that he spent most of the year taking Ecstacy in a sleazy Cancun hotel with Brittney Spears. Answer THAT, buddy!

CBS will blame AIPAC, The Mosaad & the Zionist Conspiracy for this. It would be great if this was payback to CBS for the Lesley Stahl "story." Ruin the credibility of 60 Minutes.

I still cant wait for them to introduce us to the Monica who typed up the memos...

i really really want to know who that person is....

Dan knows who handed him the memos... and that person knows who handed them to him... and so on....

cause if rather wants to save himself hes gonna have to find the person at the end of that daisy chain and throw him in front of the bus....

American Spectator's website is down, try this link:

Anatomy of a Forgery

This story claims that the DNC was Rather's source, but also suggests a Karl Rove "false flag" operation.

Ptew!

Nightline: The typefaces used "were rare"???

WTF

Something that perhaps hasn't been mentioned yet, or at least not very often. Is the orginal of this memo available for examination?

If so, tests can be run to determine the age of the paper and ink, what type typewriter/printer was used, maybe even fingerprints.

If the original is not available, then that would make this entire blunder seem even more foolish. But whatever they have, the age of the paper could be assessed.

Over at DU

[Link: www.democraticunderground.com...]

they are already planning the purges.

#72 AG in Houston

Too bad Drudge/Fox/CNN/CBS et al will not take the blogosphere seriously.

Oh, but they do. This is exactly why they are reluctant to give the blogosphere any credit. Blogs are competitors, and according to the MSM's antagonism strong ones. Hehehe ..

This forged document angle is going to be recycled by DU and the rest of the LLL every time something negative finds its way out about Kerry's closet.

I'm reminded by watching Nightline why I don't watch the MSM. While the show questions the authenticity of the CBS memos, it continue to perpetuate the other lies circulated about GWB's ANG service.

It's the Day, the Blogosphere finally arrived.

Just as the Monica Lewinski scandal was Drudge's permanent arrival on the Media Scene, so as with the CBS Forgeries, the Blogosphere has Come of Age.

Free Republic needs to be given some credit too.

And a little OT, but isn't Andrew Sullivan in danger of becoming the Vin Baker of the Blogosphere? Isn't it time for Big Glenn, Daniel Drezner, and Wankette --
who knows a lot about Ass F***ing, don't you know -- to perform an intervention and rescue Poor Andrew, before Bush wins the Election, and Andy suffers a total Seismic Hissy Fit Collapse?

CBS News says:

and handwriting experts "who put our concerns to rest" and confirmed the authenticity of Killian's signature.

What kind of messed brain dead drunk did they find who could possibly believe these are the same signature?

Killian's signatures

Now that WaPo is on the case, even Talking Points Memo is cracking under the pressure.

#112

From your Article:

According to one ABC News employee, some reporters believe that the Kerry campaign as well as the DNC were parties in duping CBS, but a smaller segment believe that both the DNC and the Kerry campaign were duped by Karl Rove, who would have engineered the flap to embarrass the opposition.

Appearing on DU and indymedia in 5...4...3...2...

Pretty even handed dealing with the Cheney speech flap. Kinda surprised.

# 109

Scrappleface is on the story:

1972 Email Casts Doubt on Bush Guard Service

What a crock, everyone knows that Gordon Liddy was the Alabama GOP's webmaster in '72.

CBS News Online is apparently getting swamped with traffic. It won't load right to me, at least.

Followed M Simon's link in 115 and learned something new ~ Paul Wellstone was assinated to keep him from running for prez in '04. Gotta hand it to Rove and the jews, they are a far-sighted bunch.

Les Moonves strikes again. Big time Clinton/Dem backer. "60 Minutes" is wholey owned by any anti-Bush book/story, Rather, Reagan hatchet job, etc, etc. 100% shame-free.

Expect one of those car-ad disclaimers next week.

"Everythingyouheardaboutdocumentsciting BushbeingAWOLfromtheGuardwasafraud CBSregretstheerror...

Coming up next on 60 Minutes, did Mr. Bush peddle kiddie porn? Several people have now come forward saying that they cannot prove that he never did. We investigate. And be sure to tune in next week for our full-hour interview with Kitty Kelly."

Great work Charles, Drudge, the Blogosphere and SpecRep!

And a little OT, but isn't Andrew Sullivan in danger of becoming the Vin Baker of the Blogosphere?

Ouch...now that was way over the line...and I loved it ;)

Nightline, like so many people whjo can't argue rationally, would rather talk about procedure than substance.

slap at pub rhetoric of Cheney

seems MOTS...

slanted brainwashing from the MSM...

(they're only guilty of "Attempted Brainwashing" in my case)

they are skewering Kerry a bit tho...if you listen to what the candidates say....but they control the direction of the conversation and put up their theory and then insert snippets of the prime sources...

egads people

...it's no wonder so many people buy into the shit...they're aged practitioners over there, now, aren't they...

"My old friend Dan Rather, for example, had himself a peach of a story on 60 Minutes last night, raising more questions about the President's record in the Texas Air National Guard. Just so there's no misunderstanding, if someone had dropped that story in my lap, and we'd been able to confirm it through our own sources, you would have seen it on Nightline.

I have absolutely no idea how Dan got the story, but you have to believe that the Kerry campaign was awfully pleased that he did. Except that today, questions are being raised about the accuracy of one key element in the story."

--Ted Koppel, Nightline

I just can't get over what Charles and Powerline did. I used to read LGF avidly thinking that we are only preaching to the choir (and the occasional moonbat), but we aren't changing anything outside our little 'world'. Here comes Charles, calling CBS' bluff; he uses his popularity in the blog world to get some guys behind him - next thing you know, the untouchable CBS is launching an internal investigation - for a 60 minutes story -- the day after it aired!

Now that is changing things.

# 126 dm

Bush lied! And Paul died!!

'cause we all know the Wellstone train would have made the Dean express look like nothing ..
:-0

Origin? Possibility: The "memos" were sent to CBS, without a return address. It is not clear if CBS obtained the other, authentic documents separately, or if they were included with the forgeries.

In the second case, the trail would be probably traceable to someone who had obtained the authentic documents in a legal fashion.

CBS would be scurrying now to find a right patsy.

I am out of line by saying that I eagerly await seeing Mr. Rather eat poop on national TV?

Chris Lehane????????????????????????

He is such a complete moron. Didn't he advise Gov Davis (and Al Gore). And to mention the popular vote from 2000....

Uggghhh.

# 131 Y

Amen -- what a wonderful nightcap for this day!

#93 Patrizio,

It depends on how the internet effects things. Prior to this, no.

You have to have a reason to correct yourself. There's no magical correct way to be a reporter, or for that matter, a student, or a martial artist, or computer programmer.

OTOH, there is an ethical way to conduct yourself, no matter what your profession.

The media will become self-correcting when it is in their interest to do so. And not before.

They have no more "professional ethics" than your average gangbanger. Or, for that matter, computer programmer.

In the end, we're all mercenaries.

But the Blogosphere helps make it in their interest to be ethical. The same way contracts help programmers be ethical.

The same way violence helps gangbangers be ethical.

(I’m in a real bleak mood, Guys and Dolls)

Lehane busting on the blogosphere and the "standards" of the MSM.

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Holy Toledo, Batman!

WAY TO SCOOP, CHARLES!!!

/tugs forelock

Ah, Brilliant.

#131 quoting Koppel

"Except that today, questions are being raised about the accuracy of one key element in the story."

analogy from an alternate universe:

"It's a great scoop, Mr. Woodward, Mr. Bernstein; except for one key element: there was no burglary at the Watergate."

I had to 'undelete' ABC from my TV to watch this Nightline bullshit.

If they don't mention LGF by name I will re delete it and break the menu button off my remote.

OT:

Just to stick it the LLL morlocks even more:

U.S. Military Kills Scores in Fighting Near Mosul

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Sept. 9 - After a long morning of fierce but one-sided combat near the northern city of Mosul on Thursday, American forces said they had killed 57 enemy fighters with great precision, and without a single American casualty.

So much for the fierce fighting skills of the "brave militiamen". Great when they can hide behind women and children or in mosques, shitty when they face a stand up fight.

yeah...this reminds me why I don't watch Nightline...they're fortunate I didn't change the channel after the game...now...aren't they....

but they only have me for so few nights a year...you guys at ABC have really got to do better to keep me more often than this...good luck...have a nice day...

...and no...I don't need any furniture...

How are Dan Rather's gamy buttocks?

ahh shit.. I shoulda captured the CC

#140 Shiplord

LMFAO

Ignore that 800-lb key element in the corner, please.

someone email it to me pls :-)

#119 Mister Ghost 9/9/2004 10:03PM PST

to perform an intervention and rescue Poor Andrew, before Bush wins the Election, and Andy suffers a total Seismic Hissy Fit Collapse?

No! :-)

I like watching seismic events. Shake his boooty, I say! :-)

Polipundit is calling this Rathergate, with the th of Rather superscripted. An excellent meme. Unfortunately, I'm not computer literate enough to do the superscripting myself. Guess I wouldn't make a great forger.

#137

It's a good point, but I would add that the appearance of a new media (weblogs) is not the only thing that makes it in the interest of the old media (papers, etc.) to correct itself, be ethical, etc.

Let us remember that, for example, there is fierce competition amongst themselves. By saying that, I am agreeing with you in that this situation forces controls and ethics upon them so they won't lose the upper hand in the competition. If there were only one media outlet, there wouldn't be any pressure-interest in being truthful, accurate, and generally decent.

Also, you didn't come out as bleak, at least to me. Personally, I know where you're coming from, but I think there is such a thing as being too cynical.

OT again:

How obvious does it have to be when Reuters is willing to write and publish a story like this:

Iran Seen Using EU to Buy Time to Get Atomic Bomb

VIENNA (Reuters) - Iran is using negotiations with the European Union (news - web sites)'s "big three" on suspending sensitive nuclear activities to buy the time it needs to get ready to make atomic weapons, an Iranian exile and intelligence officials said.

Mojo Jojo (#110)

CBS will blame AIPAC, The Mosaad & the Zionist Conspiracy for this.

I said the same thing a little while ago. When all else fails, blame the Jews.

It would be great if this was payback to CBS for the Lesley Stahl "story." Ruin the credibility of 60 Minutes.

No chance. The people who suffer from BDS (and LLL's in general) will believe the most outlandish conspiracy theories rather than deal with the facts. Was the NYT's credibility ruined when Jayson Blair's lies came to light? No. The media has far too much power. Who is going to hold them accountable? We can expose the lies and propaganda but it won't stop them from doing it again. So they'll print an apology at the bottom of page 18 and trust that most people won't read it. "Journalists" are the scum of the earth.

#142 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Al-Zawahiri lied! Millitants died!

#149 Melissa

Maybe not a great forger, but I'm sure the Democrats would still hire you.

At least they covered it, and with a few zingers aimed at rather and CBS. But it still gave as much to the other unfounded allegations about Bush as it did to the "possible" forgeries...

And Koppel stated that it would be"incredibly stupid"if the Kerry camp were involved in any way. I mean they couldn't be that stupid could they???

The brilliant detective work has stopped the story from spreading further.

But - the damage is already done. Just like a misleading headline, the casual reader (who does not follow each minute detail of each story) is still left with a vague impression that there was something wrong.

Throw enough garbage and some of it sticks. It doesn't matter if it is true or not. So someone will print a short apology and transfer an employee to another position.

Sorry to be so pessimistic.

# 152 zb

"Was the NYT's credibility ruined when Jayson Blair's lies came to light"

No, but it was damaged. Same as Dateline with the "exploding" GM pick-ups and CNN with Tailwind. Now it's CBS' turn, and the cumulative effect (which is not linear, IMO) just keeps on growing ...

I was interviewed on TV by Dan Rather when the Berlin Wall fell. After a few minutes he asked me to speak in a "much heavier German accent" to sound more "authentic". I refused because I felt that was just plain silly (my English is almost accent free).

"Rather" telling, isn't it?

Cartoon from Iowa Presidential Watch

#127 Model4

Heh heh heh....wait a minute, why am I laughing?

It's not long after midnight Central Time.

September 10 2004

Today is the 3rd anniversary of the last full day on this Earth of 3000 souls.

Remember them today.

Remember their families today.

Never forget them.

#155 only_truth

You dont think Kerry would ever think about making anything up, would you?

cough cough, Winter Soldier, Purple hearts, Cambodia, cough cough

nah.

#156

That's one funny nickname

I'm pretty sure that even CBS didn't have proportionally-spacing, automatically-superscripting, perfect-word-wrapping, super-duper-uber-typewriters in 1972-1973, which means that Dan Rather was likely banging things out on a fricking typewriter.

Obviously, the Dan Rather of today is a changeling left by aliens so naturally he would have no memories of fabric ribbons, monospaced fonts and Ko-Rec-Type.

Either that, or he's an idiot for not immediately recognizing just how UNLIKELY documents that looked like this in '72-'73 would be.

Absolutely. Freaking. Astounding. How stupid can CBS (and the rest of the MSM) be?

# 161 M H

They are why we fight.

They are why Charles spends his time as he does.

They are why we no longer allow the LLL media lies like yesterdays -- the stakes are too high.

May they look upon us and truly Rest In Peace.

Could it really be true that CBS had these things for 6 weeks? And that 4 document experts looked at it? And that the Kerry camp turned them over to CBS?

At first I thought it too far fetched to believe that the documents were forged. Yet to see whether the rest of this is true....

Just one small correction to an otherwise delightful turn of events:

[Link: www.linotype.com...]

929–60: typography consultant to "The Times" daily newspaper. On 3 October 1932 the first issue of "The Times™" set in Morison’s new typeface, Times New Roman™, is printed. 1935–51: published the history of "The Times™" in four volumes. 1945–47: editor-in-chief of the "Times Literary Supplement". 1960: made a Royal Designer for Industry.

Fonts: Times™ (1931), Times™ Ten (1931), Times™ Eighteen (1931), Times™ Central European (1931), Times New Roman™ (1932, with Victor Lardent).

Someone in the thread claimed that TNR didn't exist in the early seventies. Clearly it did; and created by one of the masters of typography.

Now whether it existed on typerwriters is a whole different question...

Good night, y'all.

The "lid" is on.

(Unless Dan Rather decides to borrow Flipper's assault shotgun this evening and go "editorialize with extreme prejudice.")

Boy, he gave Lehane an awful lot of air time. And Lehane managed to mention (as I suspected he would) that perhaps this was done by Republicans, because, of course, it couldn't be the Kerry campaign. All in all, a tepid performance, although more than I expected from Nightline.

I do wonder, though, at the blatant transparency of the forgery. It makes me uneasy. Almost like the forger wanted it to be discovered. But, if he/she wanted it to be discovered, one would have to assume that he/she knew it wouldn't be discovered by Rather or CBS, so it could be aired. So they made a forgery so obvious they knew almost anyone would know it was one merely by looking at it, and yet they knew it would pass muster with Rather? I cannot figure it out--but it seems odd, to say the least.

The alternative explanation is that the forger is unbelievably stupid and incompetent, and so is Rather. I suppose that's the most likely explanation.

It's been quite a day, though.

Buckaroo, do you really think so? People still cite the NYT as though it's the last word and it's still a respected newspaper.

Rather: And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for those meddling bloggers!

I don't know about some people but it scares the shit out of me that this creatin and others like him have so much power and are clearly at the point were they want to abuse it to try and get their candidate elected.....

Because of people like Charles and the countless bloggers that scrutinize all this BS morons like Rather and the other MSM whores spew, the people have a chance to use the 1st amendment to make a change in the government once again. Course, failing that... theres always the 2nd to fall back on.... but thankfully because of the blogosphere's rise we can hold off on that one .......for a while anyway.

What Leslie Stahl story? My memory ain't what it used to be.

/geezer

Amazingly, even al nytimes covers this, but with their own nuanced 'style' Commander's Son Questions Memos on Bush's Service

As this whole thing was playing out today, a scene from the movie A Bug's Life kept coming to mind. Those of you who have kids probably know it well. In the scene, the ants finally grow tired of the oppression of the lazy grasshoppers and they realize their superior numbers and intelligence can easily over-run the brute force of the gang of thugs.

They scoffed at talk radio when it began to blossom and they have clearly "misunderestimated" the power of the internet. Dan may have thought that we are all just a bunch of insignificant little ants, not worhty of a second thought. However, I suspect that he is going to find out otherwise.

"RatherBiased" and the rest of the Jurassic Media are going to try to wiggle and spin their way out of this one and get on with the rest of the October Surprises they have in store. Don't let them off the hook.

P.S. What you bet we see a whole lot of reporting and writing on Hurricane Ivan to avoid detailing this fraud?

# 170 zb

Yes, people do still abide by them -- and 10 years from now a few still may. My point is the long-term trend is evident and inexorable. Look at LGF -- many educated, professional people -- many in their 20s and 30s -- who have resisted the LLL craziness their colleges put them through and/or have been deprogrammed (!) and who not only laugh at the LLL media, but are enlightening their family, friends, associates, and children "one mind at a time"

It's days like today that make me even more optimistic than usual ...
:-)

True German Ally (#158)

I was sent to a small town in Germany once to produce a story for ABC. My cameraman for the shoot was German but sounded like he was from New Jersey. I was impressed. Kind of weird that Rather wanted to 'sex up' your accent.

Someone needs to investigate the angle that this whole National Guard story re-hash was brought to existence through the colusion of the Kerry campaign and their confederates in the MSM. Before CBS even did their thing I was hearing ominous warnings/threats from big Dems like Rangel and Estrich that they were going to pull this crap. Their statements seemed to imply that they 'knew' something was coming.

Congrats to Charles and others for making the MSM kneel!

The MSM is Feudalism, a bunch of self appointed Lords and Dukes who think they know what's best for the "lowly serfs", and there is zero accountability for the imposition of their elitist, archaic worldview. The Blogosphere is democracy, the arena where tens of thousands of individuals can contribute his own voice and arguments to political discourse. It unleashes the creativity of the people, and calls the assumptions of the Network Oligarchy into account.

The worm is turning.

While the blogosphere is—deservedly—patting itself on the back, it's important to note that these were obvious forgeries. Forgeries that duped one of the most powerful media organizations and one of the most powerful media figures in the country.

I glanced at the documents this morning and immediately looked for a note from CBS explaining why they'd released word-processed versions of the documents. Of course there was no such explanation. Total time spent, three minutes.

Complete incompetence. Anyone who has used a computer since the "desktop publishing revolution"—and I'm guessing a large number of CBS News employees fit that description—should be able to tell the difference between a typewritten and word-processed document. Immediately! Even if they aren't able to articulate that difference in terms of n-dashes, kerning, picas, "curly quotes", font families, or superscripts. If the forgers had attempted to emulate a typewriter—or had in fact used a typewriter—then, perhaps, CBS News would have some excuse.

Even now other news organizations are couching their stories about these obviously faked documents with "experts say", "the possibility exists", etc. Nonsense! I'm no forensic typographer (there's an episode of CSI for you), but I'm also not an idiot. The last thirty years have brought unprecedented ease of aesthetic refinement to the masses' media (yeah, your media, not the "mass media") are we all so blind to or blinded by these niceties that we can't differentiate 1970 from 1986 from 2004? If practitioners at the highest level of corporatist media conglomeration are too stupid to differentiate among artifacts from different decades how can they be trusted to provide the fine-grained analysis required in an increasingly homogenous society where the differences between ideas are subtle, are refined, and are still important. They can't tell us where we're at, can't remember where we came from, and can't imagine where we're going.

CBS News is incompetent. Their incompetence leads to misguided interpretations which feedback on us, the society that entrusted CBS with a significant chunk of our airwaves.

Buckaroo, yes, very good point and you just made me feel better about it.

The NY Times is finally covering it:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

I'll let you make your own conclusions...

Here are a couple of paragraphs

In an interview with The Associated Press on Thursday, the officer's son, Gary Killian, said he doubted that his father had written some of the memos. "I am upset because I think it is a mixture of truth and fiction here,'' Mr. Killian said.

CBS said in a statement that it stood by its story and the memos' authenticity.

"As is standard practice at CBS News, the documents in the '60 Minutes' report were thoroughly examined and their authenticity vouched for by independent experts,'' the statement said.

Still, throughout the afternoon and evening, questions arose about the authenticity of the memos as various forensics experts told news organizations, including The New York Times, that the fonts of the documents resembled those of modern-day word processors, specifically Microsoft Word.

Farrell C. Shiver, a forensic document examiner based in Georgia who said he was a Republican, said the superscript "th's" throughout the memos were "something you would expect to find being done with a computer" and were "not consistent with something that you would expect to find from someone typing a document; they used typewriters in that particular time."

Mr. Shiver also said he was suspicious of the spacing in the memos and the curves in their apostrophes.

But he said that while the font seemed unusual for the period, "that does not prove that the documents are not genuine."

Philip Bouffard, a forensic document specialist from Ohio who created a commonly used database of at least 3,000 old type fonts, said he had suspicions as well. "I found nothing like this in any of my typewriter specimens," said Dr. Bouffard, a Democrat. He also said the fonts were "certainly consistent with what I see in Times Roman," the commonly used Microsoft Word font.

However, Dr. Bouffard said, a colleague had called his attention to similarities between the font in the memos and that of the IBM Selectric Composer of the early 1970's.

But he said it would be unusual for Mr. Bush's commanding officer to have had the IBM machine because of its large size.

Dr. Bouffard said he would see if the fonts match more closely on Friday. "The problem I'm going to run into if this matches and Times Roman matches, to the extent of what we are able to see on these poor miserable copies that are passing around,'' he said, "then I don't think anybody's going to be able to say for sure.''

A senior executive at CBS said said, "We are convinced our source who got the documents had access to them and we trust the source.'' He added, "Can we produce the typewriter they came from in 1972 or 1973? Obviously not.''

The executive said the documents had been "vetted as thoroughly as possible.''

"We did have a number of experts,'' he said, adding that the producers also showed the documents to numerous people who worked with Colonel Killian and who said the memos were consistent with what he thought and representative of the sorts of documents he produced back then.

"It would be unbelievable for a forger to have written documents that could so closely reflect what the people closest to Killian said,'' he said, "that this is his tone of voice, what he thought back then, this is the situation back then. It would be a little odd to think that these things could have just surfaced.''

# 180 zb

Just doin' my part ..
:-)

Oh, i feel kind of bad.

Mary Mapes, the producer of the 60 Minutes II segment, lives next door to my father in Dallas.

I told him to be expecting a "for sale" sign to spring up in the neighbor's yard any day now!

Today will go down in history as the day the blogophere arrived.

Suck it, Slashdot. Suck it hard.

(I say this not out of latent malice towards geeks, but because they never run the news stories I submit where internet news outlets are show to actually be effecftive at changing the real world... a departure from the apparent /. party line of "Wah, we're just geeks. We're smarter than everyone but we just can't make a splash in the real world." ARGH! I hate that)

More from the NY Times article:

CBS News executives also produced a document released earlier by the White House about Mr. Bush's service that was clearly from a typewriter and had a superscript "th'' in it. CBS said it proved that some typewriters did indeed have superscript keys. But the characters were hard to make out after so much reproducing of the document, a problem, the CBS News official acknowledged, with the documents in the initial "60 Minutes'' program; those documents were not originals and have been copied repeatedly.

CBS News declined to say how it obtained the memos.

SOOOOOOO! The CBS nuts are the ones behind that document with the superscript th (supposedly) in it....

"The defeat of America in Iraq and Afghanistan has become a matter of time, with God's help," al-Zawahri said on the tape, which the station said it obtained Thursday.

al-Zawawho?

One day in the not so distant future we will learn that Al-Jazeera is al-Qaeda's very own media outlet.

CBS had these memos for six weeks and their authenticity was vetted and comfirmed by FOUR SEPARATE documents experts.

Those experts, Carville, Lehane, Howard Dean and Michael Moore, all agree that they are perfectly genuine. I really don't see what all this huff is about.

AP spinning away: Questions Raised About Bush Guard Service

One of the writer's fellow officers and a document expert also said Thursday the documents appear to be forgeries.

Still, the documents marked the second time in days the White House had to backtrack from assertions that all of Bush's records had been released.

...Yet, it was the White House — not Kerry's campaign — that distributed four memos from 1972 and 1973 from Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, now deceased, who was the commander of the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron in Houston where Bush served. The White House obtained the memos from CBS News, which said it was convinced of their authenticity, and the White House did not question their accuracy. There was no explanation why the Pentagon was unable to find the documents on its own.

The explanation is that they are forgeries, you %$#&!

179 mimikintoe

It's not incompetence. It's willful blindness.

I have $500 riding on W to win the election. I was so confident I even gave 2:1 odds. This is so sweet.

#179 mimikintoe

OMG, you sound really smart. You eloquenltly read my mind ;)

Even if this had turned out to be true, why would I care?

If we throw this shit up agiasnt the wall, and it sticks, the jew neocons are fucked.

If it backfires, and we end up looking like shmucks, we blame those same jew neocons, because it's in their interest to make us look bad, and well, they're devious, you know . . .

/msm plotters

(I'm 95% sure Im joking)

blogaddict:

I do wonder, though, at the blatant transparency of the forgery. It makes me uneasy. Almost like the forger wanted it to be discovered.

More likely that the forger didn't care whether it was discovered or not. He or she knew perfectly well that enough people would believe it anyway, and will continue to believe it no matter what.

# 191 zb

'cause the Ala. ANG folk could be pointed to the Swiftees with the LLL's typical moral equivalence and Kerry's Vietnam albatross -poof!- vanishes!
:-)

188 That AP article was posted 44 minutes ago...

WTF?????? No analysis as to why they are probably forgeries, just that the Bush campaign had released them, that they hadn't questioned their authenticity and a comment that someone thought they might be forgeries.

They call themselves reporters??? I mean seriously. Someone needs to make a shapshot (or whatever the heck it's called. i can't remember as I am tired) of this thing before it disappears>

#163 Patrizio

Thank you, dear.

I am a lurker mostly. Every so often I feel the urge to type.

Right now I am typing to avoid doing something else that I am supposed to be doing.

Come to think of it, this may be true for almost everyone on this website, with the possible exception of the site owner...

:-(

Good night.

Goddamn it Here's an AP story running in the top headlines on Yahoo. I guess it was too much to expect the virulent anti-Bush Ass.Press would get it right. Look at this f**king spin!

Questions Raised About Bush Guard Service

41 minutes ago

By TERENCE HUNT, AP White House Correspondent

WASHINGTON - New documents unearthed in the midst of the presidential campaign fill in some blanks but raise other questions about the sometimes mysterious and spotty story of President Bush (news - web sites)'s military service during Vietnam when he won a coveted spot in the Texas Air National Guard and avoided the war.

Reviving issues that have shadowed his political career, the documents show Bush ignored a direct order from a superior officer and lost his status as a Texas Air National Guard pilot more than three decades ago because he failed to meet military performance standards and undergo a required physical examination.

But the authenticity of the memos was questioned Thursday by the son of the late officer who reportedly wrote them. One of the writer's fellow officers and a document expert also said Thursday the documents appear to be forgeries.

Still, the documents marked the second time in days the White House had to backtrack from assertions that all of Bush's records had been released. They also raised the specter that Bush sought favors from higher-ups and that the commander of the Texas Air National Guard wanted to "sugar coat" Bush's record after he was suspended from flying.

WTF??? Forgeries....FORGERIES for crissakes, and the AP spins it as if these "still raise the spector that Bush sought favors.

And the rest of the article acts as if these documents are authentic and written by Killian!!!

This sh*t stinks to high heaven.

The chain of evidence was DNC to Kerry campaign to CBS, according to this in the American Spectator:

Anatomy of a Forgery.

Here's a line from the NYT about the fighting near Mosul. It absolutely broke my heart:

Overwhelming firepower - pitting jets, helicopters and tanks against lightly armed militants - won the day, but the region is far from secure, officials said.

Evil American occupiers aren't fighting fair!

adding that the producers also showed the documents to numerous people who worked with Colonel Killian and who said the memos were consistent with what he thought and representative of the sorts of documents he produced back then.

Are these people psychics?

#184 Flak

My God, I felt the same way. The forgeries did indeed make it as a story, but its not on the main page. I know it just tears them up that they are the biggest blog on the net and have yet to make any fucking differance.

If they get rid of their stupid ass "moderation" system they actually have a shot a producing intelligent discussion that could change the world. But they won't, because that would be "a violation of free speech" for trolls and whiners.

Oh, and blogs that do change the world have been around for a bit. Groklaw comes to mind. No troll coddling, no mindless BS, just pure, hard fact-checking that has had a massive effect in one particular legal case....

#167 obscurion

Throw in the fact that this Killian did plenty of memos in the oh-so-familiar 1970's typewritten style, signed them, and CBS did NO fact-checking, or signature analysis, WHATSOEVER.

Having done most of my writing in the typewriter to computer era, the documents in question are obviously computer-generated. Say what you will about available fonts back then, typewriting basically came in elite and pica. Printing or engraving is another thing. But military memos were not released as signed lithographs. Every military or government document I've ever seen from back in the day look like the genuine memo posted over at Power Line. Charles did the computer analysis.

It's an obvious forgery if you put the genuine memo side-by-side with the CBS memo, as Power Line did. The signature could not have been analyzed, the forgery is so bad. Charles does the kerning and computer analysis.

Game over. CBS needs to clean house at the 'news' division.

#199

I think that line also goes further and suggests the all-powerful American imperial Army has nothing on the brave Mujahedeen/Sadrist/whatever troopers

Congratuations Charles!

ABC swen website:
The memos are dated 1972 and 1973, when computers with word-processing software were not available.

More than half a dozen document experts contacted by ABC News said they had doubts about the memos' authenticity.

"These documents do not appear to have been the result of technology that was available in 1972 and 1973," said Bill Flynn, one of country's top authorities on document authentication. "The cumulative evidence that's available … indicates that these documents were produced on a computer, not a typewriter:"

Among the points Flynn and other experts noted:

The memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard.
The memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters.
The memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters.
The font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas — the bible of fonts — does not list Times Roman as an available font for typewriters.
The vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers.

The White House is declining to comment on the veracity of the documents. Many Democrats are worried that if they are found to be forgeries, it will be a setback for Sen. John Kerry's campaign to defeat Bush in November.

Buckaroo, Kerry reminds me of the Holocaust deniers who accuse the Jews of being Nazis.

RE: The Yahoo AP article

Not until the third paragraph does it mention that the documents are called into question.

Do they completely have their heads up their asses (or I guess do they have their noses so far up Kerry's ass that they can't see daylight)???

#188 freedomsound

Oopps...sorry, I hadn't read through all the comments before I posted.

Why doesn't AssPress just drop the pretense and officially run the "sponsored by Camp Kerry" on its header?

# 206 zb

More or less so than Hilary?
:-0

but but but i was given bad information from my reliable sources

/cackling like ironfist

the irony cant wait for the late night jokes

Buckaroo, does Hillary also pretend that she's a war hero?

#167 obscurion

Times Roman has been around since 1931. But as a printer's font, never a typewriter font. New Times Roman (a slightly modified version) was specifically developed for Microsoft Windows 3.1 in 1985(?). The IBM Composer machine with roughly similar font was a behemoth that required considerable expertise to operate. And certainly was not found at a National Guard base.

What is it that journalists really do, if they can't even fact check something this simple? Is it so surprising that they would stoop to trusting jihadi statements over the word of American commanders? It may not even be bias - it may be simple incompetence - they really can't tell who's telling the truth. What a bunch of stupid morons.

Not too shabby, Charles! Once again, LGF blasts away the corruption and conspiracy of silence in the MSM to bring our readers (and lizardoids, alike) the TRUTH!!!

SHAZZZZAAAAM!

LGFMAN rises slowly from his perfect replica 70s egg chair as the propeller on his beanie whirls at top speed causing his dangling limbs to sway gently in the afternoon breeze....where was I? Oh, yes....

YES! Score a few points for the Lizardoids and Lizardoid Master, Charles. Once again, LGFMAN struck!

YYEEEEEAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!

Is there any chance of seeing Dan Rather pull a Bud Dwyer???

Oh yeah, that dickhead Atrios claims he'd be thrilled to see Rather "punk'd" on this one. Anyone buying that?

My (lack of) money's on forgery.

Darleen (#197),

Can you believe that? I was so amazed I sent the link to Charles.

the sometimes mysterious and spotty story of President Bush's military service during Vietnam when he won a coveted spot in the Texas Air National Guard and avoided the war.

Nope, no editorializing there, none at all.

What about CrusaderGirl's post?

# 211 zb

Not to my knowledge ...
:-)

Wow-- 1500 users online at 2300 Pac. time! truly an incredible day ..

#205 justdanny,

ABC swen?

LOL!

mimikintoe:

Complete incompetence. Anyone who has used a computer since the "desktop publishing revolution"—and I'm guessing a large number of CBS News employees fit that description—should be able to tell the difference between a typewritten and word-processed document.

Back in the 50s, a guy named Paul Hughes convinced The Washington Post that he worked for Joseph McCarthy, and they paid him thousands of dollars for documents that he claimed to have stolen from McCarthy's office. Detailing, among other things, McCarthy's plot to overthrow the government of the United States.

Needless to say, they believed every word of it, even though the documents were incredibly crappy forgeries that Hughes had typed himself - all filled with the same misspelled words and the same defective keystroke.

They were so crappy, in fact, that a jury refused to believe that the WaPo hadn't known they were forgeries all along, and they acquitted Hughes of fraud.

#167 obscurion

True. However, Linotype was selling this new version as simply Times.
With advent of digital technology, an optimized digital version (that differs in some details from the master design, naturally, because originally the typeface was designed for casted type) was licensed to MS as Times New Roman. I remember the typeface catalogs from mid-80's and there was no Times New Roman, just Times. Even when DTP started in 1985, the Ventura Publisher that I used at that time also had just Times Roman typeface. They differ in some details that may seem only minor, but to a trained eye, they are rather distinct.

I can see the media spin already. The media is going to try to confuse the issue with the superscript. Old typewriters can superscript/subscript if you manually roll the platen down or up a half click repectively, but old typewriters cannot make the actual characters smaller as you see with MS Word, which appears to be the case with these forgeries.

206 zulubaby

Buckaroo, Kerry reminds me of the Holocaust deniers who accuse the Jews of being Nazis.

The irony gets lost in the nuance.

Charles...you are Batman(TM).

There can be no other explanation.

# 222 a

Let 'em -- several folks who **draw their (large!) paychecks** looking at these things have gone **on the record** as 90+% certain they're forged. The burden of proof has totally shifted to CBS ...

I can't find a link for it, but early word proessors used a printer robot with soleniod "fingers' that sat on a regular typewritter and typed the document. Really.

True German Ally #153

I was interviewed on TV by Dan Rather when the Berlin Wall fell. After a few minutes he asked me to speak in a "much heavier German accent" to sound more "authentic". I refused because I felt that was just plain silly (my English is almost accent free).

I think the more one learns about how much of what we see on TV is staged or crafted to give a certain impression, the less seriously it would be taken. When I learned several years back that 60 Minutes would often interview a guests for several hours, then pare it down to little more than twenty minutes air time, that increased my skepticism of TV "news." Then some guests complained of that, and how they'd been taken out of context.

I used to think 60 Minutes was a hard hitting, investigative show and watched it every week. Now I haven't watched it once in five or more years. I get most of my news from radio and the internet.

#196 Anne Elk (not AN elk),

Anne!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hugs]

Okay, I did a little amateur sleuthing of my own and came up with the following (sorry if anybody has already done this, but I'm eager to do my part!).

First, this is from the Washington Post article: "A senior CBS official, who asked not to be named because CBS managers did not want to go beyond their official statement, named one of the network's sources as retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, the immediate superior of the documents' alleged author, Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian. He said a CBS reporter read the documents to Hodges over the phone and Hodges replied that "these are the things that Killian had expressed to me at the time."

And this is from C-Span's campaign finance database: It seems that one Robert Hodges of Austin Texas contributed $250 on 6/30/03 to the Howard Dean campaign.

So someobody namedRobert Hodges provided the confirmation CBS wanted to run with the story. It's on the record that Killian's family and close confidants are repudiating the story, so who provided the documents--and why were they someone that CBS was inclined to believe?

So could Hodges be our rat? Our amateur forger? Seems possible--perhaps even likely--if the Texas Dean supporter Robert Hodges and Texas Air National Guard Commander Robert Hodges are one and the same.

Just a theory.

#221 ördög Johnson

I remember the typeface catalogs from mid-80's and there was no Times New Roman, just Times. Even when DTP started in 1985, the Ventura Publisher that I used at that time also had just Times Roman typeface

I've still got a Letraset catalog around here somewhere, and I used a Compugraphic phototypesetter (yes, it had fine kerning capabilities...) from 1980 to 1985, when we switched to... Ventura Publisher. I loved that program!

Small world, ain't it?

It is possible that the reason the Bush administration is not commenting on this matter is that the AG and FBI are pondering the criminality inherent in presenting forged US military documents as bona fide. If CBS was in possession of these documents for several weeks, it's actions (and certain key employee's) could be characterized as malfeasant and criminal. Dan Rather may be treading very near, if not over, the recognized limits of the First Amendment's Freedom of the Press. It's not suprising that CBS is claiming to have relied on outside experts. The DOJ may be burning the midnight oil considering what federal criminal laws may have been violated. Keep in mind that slander and libel are civil actions, generally, and the President does not want to get suckered into that argument or forum.

that cox and forcrum lgf fact checking cartoon popped into my head when i first read this story

its more likely that that the bush adminstration is not commenting because you dont interrupt your oppoent when he is killing himself.

biff

It is possible that the reason the Bush administration is not commenting on this matter is that the AG and FBI are pondering the criminality inherent in presenting forged US military documents as bona fide.

No, I doubt it. My best guess is that they just passed these stupid things along without comment because they knew they were laughable forgeries. Something like this:

OK guys, here ya go. Go have fun with this...

...knowing full well the obvious truth would come out and make the lot of them look like fools.

At least I'd like to believe they were that confident...

Meanwhile in Russia, a newspaper editor who dared to publish the full story and lots of pictures of the Beslan massacre is fired, and in Georgia journalists are thrown in jail.

Pampered over-paid American news readers have forgotten how much freedom is dependant on an honest free media.

/Clenched fist salute to journalist comrades in the former SSRs!

Charles,

Bravo my friend!!

Good show, and cheers!

Fantastic work. Long live the blogosphere!

Great Work!!!

New assignment for you...

You know how there have been some unexplained peculiarities to Kerry's records, like 3 different citations for one medal, or that V for valor attached to his silver star...
I think we may have an explanation... Anyone want to check the authenticity of THOSE?!?!

And just maybe the SwiftVets have a point - lets see John Kerry release his REAL records by signing form 180 to release them!!!

Ben Barnes, the forger ?

This fiasco has Bill and Hillary's fingerprints all over it. The whole story was hatched by the Clintons as a body blow to Kerry, and there will be more to come as the elction draws closer. As for Rather his hatred of Bush blinded him and destroyed his judgement, he wanted to believe the documents were the real deal. As W C Fields said, "you can't cheat and honest man."

#234 vtrtl

Noticed that in several articles. They all made mention that the White House distributed the memos that CBS had given them and didn't say they were not authentic.

My opinion was the WH was thinking, "Yup, this is what CBS provided. We haven't changed one thing from what CBS is saying. Want some more rope, Dan?"

151 Kragar - The coordinated pre-emptive attacks won't take long to plan. Think drug ring takedowns.

230 AlexM - hmm...could this be a person who changed his name to move to an address with only a phone? Is this someone who forged military documents? In some dastardly plot to pull down the President? Some crazed lunatic, frotheing at the mouth, unable to control his spittle? Or some college girl so outraged at the system....oh wait...a guy answered the phone...*who* is that guy? can I get him on camera? Tune in at eleven to find out more...

NOT

...well...it bears investigating now, doesn't it ;D

I'd like to know who the lunatic is.

#238 Babydoc

I think we may have an explanation... Anyone want to check the authenticity of THOSE?!?!

The USN is checking on those:

Request for Investigation, Determination and Final Disposition of Awards Granted to Lieutenant (junior grade) John Forbes Kerry, USNR.

More on Hodges, via Google. Two contradictory quotes from two different articles.

"If he had come back to Houston, I would have kept him flying the 102 until he got out, but I don't remember him coming back at all."

And then, also from Hodges: ""All I remember is someone saying he came back and made up his days."

So which episode from his obviously foggy memory is Hodges sticking to here?

Seems Hodges has a bit of Kerry problem--two different storylines "seared into his memory." I wonder if he can remember forging documents on his word processor, if he's the one who did it and is the same Texan Robert Hodges who sent money to Dean last year?

Personally, I hope Dan Rather hatched this whole plot himself. But (albeit tentatively) my money right now is on Hodges.

#230 AlexM

So could Hodges be our rat? Our amateur forger?

Not likely. Hodges may have "confirmed" that "yea, sounds like what I remember we've talked about". But he is an older man. Somehow I doubt he is likely to use computer much and be willing to commit a forgery.
He would probably remember how the documents looked like in 70's, anyway.

The "memos" were obviously done by someone that had no idea that in 70's there was no porportional kerned typefaces, e.g. someone quite young.

#246 ördög Johnson

obviously, "no proportional kerned typefaces" for typewriters.

UM, ONE MORE THING?...

18 August 1973
"Staudt is pushing to sugar coat it"

From what I read, Staudt retired in 1972. Any verification? Is it likely that a retired Staudt is pushing anyone? Is this further evidence of forgery?

LGF has made the NY Post:

Charles Johnson, who runs the wonderful littlegreenfootballs.com, simply typed one of the memos over using Microsoft Word's New Times Roman font and, lo and behold, the document came out exactly identical to the one on the CBS site, down to the letter spacing. The documents contain such features as superscript lettering, which is done automatically by Microsoft Word, and curly quotation marks. A brief glance at a Web site called selectric.org, run by an amateur typewriter fanatic, reveals dozens of IBM electric typefaces — and none of them has curly quotation marks.

NY Post

My money is on Ben Barnes as the forger.

He has been in the media spotlight recently because of his story about getting GWB his National Guard slot. The idea that Barnes would do a favor, an unethical favor at that, for the son of a hated rival just doesn't square with the rest of his career.

He is a practiced liar, like most of the old-line Anglo Dems in Texas, utterly ruthless, and technologically illiterate.

It is very unlikely that he knew anything about typing before the word processor era, and he would have had no idea that some of the specific composition was impossible, that much of the rest was highly unlikely, and that literally millions of people could spot these errors in a heartbeat.

OT: I didn't get any of my opinionjournal.com newsletter emails today. Did anyone else get them?

Ben Barnes Bio

Is he the forger ?

The allegations on Prez Bush are still there

Charles, you are a blog sleuth. Your expertise in word processing knowlege is much appreciated in light of the Bush Haters attempts to steal by lies and deception, President Bush's reputation.

THANK YOU LIZARD MASTER!

(link to world net daily mention of LGF) World Net Daily-Bush Docs...

P.S. The main stream media, despite all their resources, is clueless and blinded by their lack of objectivity. The result is the loss of their credibility. Dan Rather was hoping so badly that these documents were authentic that his bias propelled CBS into the embarrasing corner it is in today.

Prediction on the aftermath:

1. Consensus in MSM of the memos as forgeries builds.

2. Implication of guilt on part of CBS News for, initially, editorial negligence leads to Rather, 60 Min segment producers taking a paid vacation while internal investigation of CBS goes foreward.

3. ABC/NBC/CNN/FoxNews feeding frenzy builds as possible criminal investigation rumors circulate. Ratings/Pulitzer competition trumps party loyalty as the most important story of journalistic fraud of our time lures investigative reporters to dig for a connection to Kerry campaign.

4. CBS execs cut loose 60 Min segment producers, Rather in attempt to "rehab" flailing news division.

/wishful thinking

#246 ordog Johnson: I see your point.

Somewhat quite young that had no idea that in 70's there was no porportional kerned typefaces... let's see....

You know, now that I think more about it, this has that little boy--what's his name (Johnny Edwards?) written all over it!
:)

Yes, but what about all those "hanging" chads and the meaning of "is" is.....

#25 Patrizio

It's happening...we shall call it La Revolución Bloguista

Gil Scott-Heron's prediction that "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" came true -- but not quite in the way he envisioned!! Because the demise of television news is the revolution.

This is like personally witnessing a turning point in history: we are there, knocking down the Berlin Wall; we are facing down the tanks in Tiananmen Square (well, maybe that's a bad example); we are kissing that girl in Times Square on VE Day (better example). One day I'll be telling my grandkids (who, by the way Reza, will not be Muslim) about this.

I question that it could be Barnes because I don't think even CBS would be duped by him handing over a batch of memos and saying they were from Killian's personal National Guard files.

It would have to be somebody with some plausible link to the National Guard and Killian personally. We know it's not his family, so if not Hodges, his immediate superior and possibly a Dean supporter, it must be (in the words of the Godfather movies) an enemy who has not yet showed his face.

Proportional tabs and wraparound? This is the MSM's "pregnant", "hanging", and "partial" chads, excuse.

How pathetic these people are. If this doesn't convince people that the media simply cannot be fair to President Bush, I don't know what will. How can they be trusted?

#253 justdanny

Don't think so. But he may have as well paid some teenage lefty 'compu-whiz' to do the job.

I think that there will be pressure on CBS to reveal the origin/source.Let's not jump to unsubstantiated conclusions.

#253 justdanny

He left the disgraced by scandal parts out of his biography, but that's him. He is the likely forger, unless CBS had a summer intern type them up and sign them. The forgery is so bad that it's incomprehensible CBS did any investigation whatsoever.

Hey, where on EARTH did all these typographers come from?? It's a HOOT.

I used to be a layout artist in the early 1980's, worked in high school with an IBM Selectric Compositor (we thought that was pretty hot stuff, and had to rent it because it cost THOUSANDS of dollars). For that same jobbing printer, I burned plates in his garage, but the vacuum bed was screwed up, so I had to hold them down with my hands....

Worked for a huge Arcata Graphics subsidiary after college, which had huge letterpresses (for printing the Yellow Pages and phone books), and state of the art web-presses that could spit out 60,000 copies, P&B, of US News & World Report/hour, IIRC.

And we had a stripping dept. (no, not that kind) that used corrections we got from a Linotype shop across the railroad tracks. They used to keep their breakfasts hot on the Linotype machines. Gave me a slug with my name, and some Ludlow lines for paperweights. They typeset Barbara Cartland romance novels and had railroad and girlie calendars on the walls. We'd get the galleys from them (lead type weighs a ton, children), load them into Maggie's back seat, drive them to the printing plant's Heidelberg flatbed press (now, THERE's a cool machine), and the pressman would pull corrections.

Beats the shit out of soulless computers and offset. [sigh] End of the Gutenberg age....

I still have the type slugs and some copper binding dies I use as paperweights.

Proportional tabs and wraparound? This is the MSM's "pregnant", "hanging", and "partial" chads, excuse.

How pathetic these people are. If this doesn't convince people that the media simply cannot be fair to President Bush, I don't know what will. How can they be trusted?

I hereby suggest that the unknown party who brought these items to CBS be hereafter referred to as Deep Throat.

BTW, Charles is absolutely right about the line breaks and exact matchup of letter over letter. Chances of that being duplicated? Zero, zed, nada, niente, zilch. Even when you're TRYING to get it the same, it's a bitch.

Faxing any doc can make it look older than the Rosetta Stone.

Finally, there wasn't ONE MAN in the early 1970s, other than reporters, who could bloody TYPE, chillun. They had "their Girl" do it, or wrote by hand.

#253:
It`s interesting that this is at around the same time as John Sasso is coming in for Kerry. I kinda suspect he has something to do with it. [Link: www.boston.com...]

Just for the heck of it and for any potential trolls, here's an old chesnut from Bill Hobbes in regard to President Bush's TANG service.

CBS should remember another time they went with apocryphal statements as a lead story and realize karma has struck.

In other words, we had to destroy the network news operation to save it.

#266

"I hereby suggest that the unknown party who brought these items to CBS be hereafter referred to as Deep Throat".

Probably an old tactic dredged up from the Democrats "Dirty Tricks" chest. It got Kerry campaign supporters fingerprints all over it.

Anyone know what happened to that other site that posted private info on all the republican deligates on it? I think it was from the Protest Warrior site which was hacked.

#41 Tim K  9/9/2004 09:34PM PST
On the Dark side, within the last hour I watched CNN still reporting as gospel that these documents look very bad for the President.

It's just about midnight here on the West Coast and -- aside from LGF and Drudge -- I still see these forgeries being referred to as valid in the world press. Just check Google News and see the 1,500 papers that currently are running the original AP story without the slightest retraction.

There is a new AP story out right now that acknowledges Charles (not by name, of course), but still plows ahead anyway as if the documents still have validity even if they may or may not be forgeries. Here's something to make your blood boil:

[searching for story that was there 5 minutes ago...] It's gone! Replaced by a new story that trashes the memos even more with testimony from relatives. Now the media has sensed the momentum has shifted on the story and they're doing an about-face to dogpile on CBS:

Killian's relatives say the memos are fake

...

Meanwhile, questions were raised Thursday about the authenticity of newly unearthed memos purporting to have been written by one of Bush's commanders in 1972 and 1973. The memos, which were publicized by CBS News on its "60 Minutes" program, say Bush ignored a direct order from a superior officer and lost his status as a Guard pilot because he failed to meet military performance standards and undergo a required physical exam.

The network defended the memos, saying its experts who examined the memos concluded they were authentic documents produced by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian.

But Killian's son, one of Killian's fellow officers and an independent document examiner questioned the memos Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father and retired as a captain in 1991, said he doubted his father would have written an unsigned memo which said there was pressure to "sugar coat" Bush's performance review.

"It just wouldn't happen," he said. "No officer in his right mind would write a memo like that."

The personnel chief in Killian's unit at the time also said he believes the documents are fake.

"They looked to me like forgeries," said Rufus Martin. "I don't think Killian would do that, and I knew him for 17 years." Killian died in 1984.

Next thing Rather will be accusing Bush of having illegally downloaded MP3's during his ANG days.

I just checked Google News. I love the fact that all these little POS LLL journalists from hippy-ville, colorado are just now posting there "OOOOH, look at what we found" articles, trying to jump on the CBS bandwagon, not realizing its already a flaming wreck.

God, I love the internet.

#158 True German Ally

I was interviewed on TV by Dan Rather when the Berlin Wall fell. After a few minutes he asked me to speak in a "much heavier German accent" to sound more "authentic".

TGA, you might find this story from last year interesting:
A man employed by CBS News to speak the words of Saddam Hussein during his interview with Dan Rather last week reportedly adopted a fake Arabic accent.

Hearty kudos to Charles and the entire blogosphere for exposing this hoax. CBS is beneath contempt--remember the sinister hatchet job they were going to pull on Reagan with their despicable movie that they weren't able to show because of the public's outcry?
MSM:Blogosphere::Windows:Open Source

It's an enjoyable irony that the old-time 60's liberal establishment rendered itself vulnerable to a bodyblow from the 21st century/information-age blogosphere due to the liberals own inability to utilize a computer to prepare a credible forgery. I've investigated high school dropouts from the ghetto who can do a better job of preparing a fake document on the computer to assist in an i.d. theft scheme.

Hats off to Powerline, Charles, Hugh Hewitt and the other info-warriors.

Follow the money.

Ben Barnes is a LARGE contributor to many Democratic commitees and campaigns.

[Link: www.opensecrets.org...]

"Texans for Truth was established by Glenn W. Smith, also the Director of the 20,000-member Texas online activist group, DriveDemocracy.org."

From drivedemocracy.org website.

Who runs DriveDemocracy?

"In a very real sense, members will have a powerful voice deciding what issues the organization will become involved in. The DriveDemocracy team who will work day in and day out to make it easier for ordinary citizens to participate in politics includes Glenn Smith, author and longtime activist who helped manage MoveOn’s Defending Democracy campaign, and Nathan Wilcox, who has a decade of experience in designing and managing web-based advocacy campaigns."

Who funds them? Again, from their own website.

"The grant from MoveOn.org comes from the remaining proceeds of MoveOn’s powerful Defending Democracy campaign, which raised $1 million in 2003 to educate voters about Republican U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay’s unprecedented mid-decade Congressional redistricting plan for Texas. DeLay’s plan disenfranchised millions of Texas voters by radically altering Congressional district lines. MoveOn’s leadership believed the remaining proceeds from the campaign should be used in Texas in ways that pay ongoing dividends to ordinary citizens."

Remember that George Soros has already funded one successful coup in the country of Georgia. Am really beginning to think he is trying for #2.

I noticed that Staudt, mentioned in these Killian so-called memos, gave an interview in 1999. Is it possible he's still alive? Could he be interviewed on the subject? Inquiring minds want to know--

#264 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)

Hey, I was working for a typeshop back in 1976. Everything was set in lead. It was in Czechoslovakia, so all the equippment was from times of Maria-Theresa, we joked. Gave it up in 9 months, my doc offered that I would survive WW3 with such a shielding.