SHROUD OF TURIN!

Looks like they walked on it with Doc Martins...

Here's a question for everyone:

Is it now okay to relegate "memo believers" to the same pile as holocaust deniers, moon-landing doubters, and flat-earthers?

I can't believe how utterly pa^thetic this has become.

I’ll bet that if the real printed originals of these documents ever turn up (say, in a dumpster behind MoveOn.org headquarters), they’ll find the idiot’s fingerprints on them.

A safe bet, Cahrles.

What "levels" do you play with?

Does this mean that the actual paper was crumpled, or just the image?

Is there a way it can be "un-crumpled"? That would be interesting.

Sheesh! I meant Charles!
Hope I am forgiven for that butchery... :-)

ordog johnson -

Maybe they could find the fingerprints by the same method they found the "crumpling".

Former secretary says she DIDN'T type the memos

[Link: www.dallasnews.com...]

Is that the devil's face in the crumples?

I think I see it...oh no, wiat, it's just Hillary.

After a close examination of the new images by a team of experts, they have concluded that there in fact once was water on Mars.

Now on sale:
The dan bather signature washer/dryer combo set.

It does money
it does documents
and magically it can clean cloths too.

Ack!

How long before lefties point to this evidence as proof of the memos validity?

"That's *exactly* the way military guys in the 1970's used to crumple documents!"

"Modern paper doesn't crumple that way-- I tried it!!"

Please let them be real, please let them be real, please them be real.

/Ratherkos

Looks like it was pressed up against Michael Moore's stomach and the rolls of fat imprinted on the paper.

Charles:

You are a brilliant man. I would not have ever, in any of my reincarnated forms, have EVER thought of most of the tests you have thought to perform. And even had I, I would have had no clue how to perform them.

I'm just awed. Really.

Now, if you ever want to know anything about potty training, existing on military pay, getting combat boot marks out of white carpet in base housing, or applying effective slap-downs to hormonal teenagers, please feel free to contact me. I'll be happy to return the favor.

Also, if you need advice on buying minivans or feeding ravenous groups of people in camoflage...

Hmm, "Killian Memos"

Wouldn't these be "CBS Memos" or "Dan Rather Memos"?

They're certainly not Killian memos.   ;-)
 

Frank,

What they mean is that one of the previous photocopy generations was clearly crumpled and uncrumpled before cpoying to artificially "age" the document. It's a common forger's technique, and lends further creedence (like we needed any) that these are poor fakes.

But no, just adjusting chroma levels will not give us fingerprints, and there is nothing hidden by "uncrumpling" this further.

Frank IBC: in Photoshop, the option I used is at Image->Adjustments->Levels.

What's with the grayish vertical lines?

What's with the grayish vertical lines?

Xerox machine artifacts. Very common on older models.

"Modern paper doesn't crumple that way-- I tried it!!"

I have a friend who swears up and down that the distortions prove it's carbon papers.

OT

Received this in my email.

Sad Situation in Sweden
Anti-Israel bias in Sweden is deeply ingrained in the journalistic culture.

HonestReporting

Are copiers that good that they preserve crumple marks?

Or are the copies that were scanned in (presumably by someone with CBS) crumpled? Why would a *copy* of a memo be crumpled? Crumpling the original to artificially age it, I would understand, but crumpling a copy? That seems amateurish.

The vertical lines can also be from an old laser printer, which operates on pretty much the same principle as a xerox machine.

#8 Frank IBC

Fingerprints on the copy, not likely. Too subtle for copier to pick that up.
But the originals, if they're found, would have them almost certainly.

I don't think they would be found unless the forger was exceedingly stupid--meaning beyond the already established apparent stupidity--only the trail to the forger who made them would be eventually tracked down.

I’ll bet that if the real printed originals of these documents ever turn up (say, in a dumpster behind MoveOn.org headquarters),

Sounds like a job for Iowahawk. Maybe the early drafts and the rejected versions were even dumber than the ones given to Dan "Archduke Ferdinand" Rather.

OT

Sean Penn talks out of his arse about Bush again...

I'm guessing that the originals have gone into someone's bong by now.

OT - sort of

As an observer from afar I have found this years election process in the US to be fascinating and frightening at the same time, but this had me rolling on the floor in laughter

This Land - starring George Bush and John Kerry

Note: it takes the piss out of both Kerry and Bush (but Bush still comes out the more likeable in the end)

#20 Charles -

Thanks!

I suppose the crumpling could have been done by exposure to heat and/or humidity?

Those aren't "crumple marks" . Those are Stretch Marks...;).

MSNBC is covering the story now on the Abrams report.

Speaking of MoveOn.org, guess whose website now redirects there:

Washingtonienne

We might not be able to get human fingerprints from these memos, but I think we just found a way to identify the copier they were at lest reproduced on. Copier fingerprints if you will.

Too bad all of the CSI folks are on CBS!! LOL

It occurs to me that part of the trouble the younguns are having with this story--those who are still Dazed and Confused--is that they don't know the vast difference between typewriters and typesetters. So, to give them some idea of the gulf betwixt same, here are two samples:

Typesetter

Typewriter

this is going to end up being a whole season of CSI...

with special guest from the news division Dan Rather...

#9 Nancy

But she says they reflected Killian's beliefs. But then, she is a Bush-hater (the "selected, not elected" bit). I heard somewhere yesterday that Pete Slover of the DMN was following this story, trying to track down what kinds of typewriters they used at Ellington.

My short term memory may be a bit fuzzy, but didn't one of the rumored potential sources say that he observed some of Bush's records in a wastebasket or being thrown in a wastebasket?

You're really piling it on Charles. But that's OK, you're only right part of the time, so you have to crow when you can...

I'm sure someones already thought of this, but wouldnt these alleged originals have hammer marks from physical keys striking the paper? As opposed to electrostatic toner? If they are authentic, that would be the most simple litmus test.

I guess my real question is: Where are these originals? I'm sure a crime lab could very easily determine their authenticity.

Or lack therof...

Ah, I've answered my own question!

All of a sudden the lefties want to turn the discussion to the content of these fakes...no way! Not until we get to the source and somebody;s head rolls!

Hey...waaait a minute...

I'm not sure, but I think I see a footprint, or rather, a shoeprint, just below the bottom left corner of the text - it's going down, to the right, at a 30-40 degree angle. Wait, never mind - it's the right shape, but it's too small to be a shoe.

Also, there is a round impression to the right of that (and slightly overlapping). Interesting.

FOX News Special Report with Brit Hume is ripping 60 Minutes' ass to pieces right now. FINALLY. Even quoted the above noted Dallas News story.

BTW...Powerline guy will be on this show shortly.

#41 Dead Parrot James: That's it! They were thrown into a waste basket in 1972, and thirty-two years later the janitors finally got around to emptying it and found the incriminating documents.

#42

How cute. nodrog is expressing some backhanded affection for the man who lets him be abused here.

Seafarious -

What's Washingtonienne?

Have you ever experienced the birth of an absolutely perfect word.

See the Kerry Spot. Look for "Pajamahadeen".

Just saw Newcomer on FoxNews. They showed a printout on a clear overlay placed over a forgery. Conclusion? Obviously Word for Windows docs. No vacilating mush. MSNBC had ex FBI saying sumpin close to the same thing. Dam is so busted.

Charles

Were you just on Fox News? I was watching and got interrupted by my wife yammering about some shit or other...Geez maybe this is why I've been married so many times, huh?...:).

Fox is now carrying the Pitkin story. THey are emphasiing that Pikin was pressured and coached.

No -- but actually I did speak with Brit Hume's producer. I had too many other things scheduled to do it.

I spoke with Howard Kurtz from the Washington Post and Ed Carson from Investor's Business Daily today, as well as several other reporters.

Where can I watch Fox online?

Please

To summarize from the Abrams report on MSNBC; he had two experts on, one a retired FBI specialist in documents and the other a historian on IBM typewriters. Both concluded that it was highly unlikely that the memo was produced on the Selectric Composer. The historian confirmed that the Composer was used by typesetters and not in an office environment, and said that it was "laborious" do to superscripting on the machine.

It all fits now...

these documents were being secretly held in the denfense department files so as to not allow them to incriminate Bush...

they were smuggled out by Sandy Berger - thus Blather's reference to an unimpeachable source AND the crumple marks...

Brit Hume just mentioned "LittleGreenFootballs" along with "Powerline".

OK I am showing my age but is anyone besides me wondering if Dan Rather is the new Donald Segretti? Segretti was Nixon's inhouse document forger, a lawyer originally, most of his work was low-brow clownish stuff like ordering hundreds of pizzas on the opponents "stationery." But Dan Rathers bizarre denials of the obvious are making me shift my opinion of him from hapless victim to willing participant.

I am also starting to feel offended by people calling these documents forgeries, because that is an insult to forgers everywhere; in the community of artists and graphic designers in NYC we could forge anything, frankly. Want a handwritten note from Thomas Jefferson ordering a Big Mac, no problem. And I promise you that the paper, ink, and calligraphy would read correctly at the FBI document lab. These memos are an insult to those of us with skill, this is tantamount to faking a Van Gogh with house paint from Home Depot. I demand an apology.

Note the PDF Contents:

/CreationDate (D:20040908210823-04'00')
/Creator (Actrobat 5.0 Image Conversion Plug-in for Windows)

(aka, wed 21:08 -04:00/EST)

CBS converted this file from an image, they either scanned it (in which case they attempted to "conceal" the wrinkles) or they received the file in an image, and don't have the papers, thus don't have the originals. I'd curious to see the original image files, as it may have creation comments.

Gordunce

Does your dick reach your ass? Keep pulling it boy and when it does...go fuck yourself.

[Link: home.socal.rr.com...]

Here's all four memos with adjusted levels.

I tried it with the USAToday versions and they are whitewashed. No wrinkles visible.

BRIT HUME just mentioned LGF!!!

Will talk about LGF and Powerline after the break!

If anyone wants to send a fax or email to CBS News calling for Rather's resignation;
the fax number is (212) 975-1998
the email address is 60II@cbsnews.com

#16 LOL

That document's been sat on, on some sort of patterned cushion or chair. Military documents in folders don't end up looking that way, squished to the middle. And Dan Rathers's butt-donut wouldn't have made that kind of a pattern, so we'll have to look elsewhere.

Gotcha' Charles.

Hey we have to get you out, like Scott Johnson...hey he just plugged you...Great.

If it means anything, I slept at a Holiday Inn Express, last night...:).

Lots of Charles Johnson and Little Green Footballs mention by Fox News' Brit Hume. A whole segment on bloggers.

If KOS was watching Brit, he must be thrashing around on the floor.

Brit is trashing Matley now.

Okay. I held out on judging the memos as fakes so that the other side would have time to produce proof, but it's obvious now that the memos were faked.

Now the question is, who faked it and why? Since Killian's secretary said that she didn't type it, but it reflected Killian's view and there was another article somewhere by another officer that also stated that the memos didn't seem real, but reflected the substance of conversations with Killian it stands to reason that someone wanted this information in the news, but didn't have proof that Killian held this belief and therefore decided to forge memos that he/she believed reflected real views and events.

Is this why CBS is standing behind the story so forcefully? Do they have someone(s) who swears on a stack of bibles that the information is correct? Even if that is the case, why won't they admit that the memos could be fake? Is it because CBS created them as a prop for their story and then forgot to tell Rather that they were reconstructions? That seems like the easiest explanation. CBS or their source created the memos because TV news is a visual medium. They obviously couldn't get the source on camera and they needed something besides an "unnamed informant". I guess they're standing behind the story because: 1)they believe it and 2)it would discredit the story and themselves if they admitted that the memos were fake.

I've got it. They look exactly like what would happen if you put the paper in a bubble-wrap envelope and sat on it for a while.

Too damn bad Dan Rather wasn't checking my report card in high school...this is one of the same techniques that I had used.

Did anybody watch Rather tonight?
Did he bring up the memos?

In the interests of science, what happens if you Xerox any old page of anything, scan it, then do this levels adjust business?

Maybe these "crumble marks" are just from a piece of paper dragged through a mechanism. Or maybe they are themselves noise. Does anyone actually know?

Since Killian's secretary said that she didn't type it, but it reflected Killian's view and there was another article somewhere by another officer that also stated that the memos didn't seem real, but reflected the substance of conversations with Killian it stands to

Now Killian's children and others have said this is not his views. He thought highly of Bush.

Let's not do an F911..."well, yes, it is all made up, but the overall tone is correct."

I think I see the imprint of Michael Moore's butt.

Or, given his new "Just My Size" look, perhaps Algore's.

Charles, I moved Brightness/Contrast to show the crumpling, then decided to convert to greyscale, enlarged it so I saw just a few lines of type, then went back to Brightness/Contrast and moved it until I could see a halo around the letters. I wanted to see if I could detect keystrokes.

There were marks... I'm not that familiar with the traces left by copy/fax machines... but they looked like the halo you'd find around a xeroxed copy - and not the indentations of a key hitting paper. I can email a gif to you if you'd like.

Let's not do an F911..."well, yes, it is all made up, but the overall tone is correct."

Good point. I'm just trying to figure out the most logical explanation for why CBS can't admit that the memos are clearly fakes. Maybe it's just as you state. The whole matter would have devolved into a he said/she said debate so someone tried to create a paper trail to squelch that debate. If CBS never admits that the memos are fakes will there ever be any repercussion?

I've read here and other places that the standard paper size used in the military at that time was 8" X 10.5" Notice how the creases and folds extend to the edge of the document. The only point is that someone crumpled up a copy and we're not seeing wear and tear on an "original" which would have been created in the early 70's.

NM, I think the original JPEG is embedded in the PDF. For those of you who know jpeg:

APP12 marker (0xffec, company): 011Ducky01040003c00

APP14 marker (0xffee): 0eAdobe064c00001

I'm pretty sure this can be used by someone knowledgeable to trace what program made this file.

Rayra -

There must be some software that can analyze the "wrinkles" and do some kind of algorerhythm thingie to virtually "unfold" it.

#81 tybusby

The only point is that someone crumpled up a copy and we're not seeing wear and tear on an "original" which would have been created in the early 70's.

I agree with that and would go so far to say the original in the CBS pdf file was a fax copy on that really thin paper. Thicker paper like you would put in a xerox machine wouldn't show so many soft indentations or be likely to have waves down the bottom.

The collective knowledge that all of you here have amazes me. Honestly, I'm in awe.

I, by comparison, am the Inbred Banjo Player in Deliverance.

Thicker paper like you would put in a xerox machine wouldn't show so many soft indentations or be likely to have waves down the bottom.

Actually, from my observation, that might be more likely to happen in the humid conditions of late summer in Washington, DC. Or perhaps New York or Boston.

Paper is much more prone to wrinkle and jam in printers and copiers when the dew point gets in the 70s F.

#74

Rather spoke of W's speech to the Nat'l Guard folks today with the lede:

GWB spoke to the national guard convention today in Las Vegas. Tune in after the break and see if the President addressed what he did or did not do while he served in the NG.

Didn't mention the memos as far as I saw, but I didn't see the whole thing.

MH

Could the small round indentations be from...

Chihuahua feet?

Crumpled? How about a pattern match on the obvious vertical roller marks against current printers and faxes?

^{Utterly Pa}th^etic

Does that add where the engineer crumples up paper and throws in trash can and a car falls into a vacant farm field .. and they say our mistakes don't become yours.. get a hint CBS.

Messing around with MS Word and Times New Roman today *for a completely unrelated purpose*, I discovered that an ordinary space in this font seems to be exactly the same width as a thin space (1/4 em). On-screen, at least.

From what I have read, ordinary spaces are typically 1/3 em. Are tight spaces the norm in Times New Roman, or is this something that is peculiar to Microsoft's version of the font? If so, it would be another nail in the coffin, seems to me.

Apologies if this has already been covered somewhere.

Rather refered to the documents as if they were still a smoking gun in his report on Bush speaking to the Guard this evening.

These are obviously fake, the real question is who made them. My bet is either a really dumb Democrat or a smart Republican :)
This looks like it has Baker and his CIA experience written all over it!! He is amazing, first he came through for us in Florida and now I feel that some covert magician or other has been working the ole' magic again!!
Whatever it takes in 04!!

Serious times demand serious measures!!

The file I previously mentioned is up here

Will my Mac "superscript"? And...Where the heck do you insert the type ball?
My guess is the French Secret Service. This looks like the same Inspector Clouseau junior masterminds that tried to blow up the Green Peace ship in Austrailia. The Kerrys speak French.

I'll bet when they find the original it will not only have fingerprints but grease from several cheeseburgers.

You may find a few cheeseburgers... but you will not find...PAJAMAS!

Fingerprints?

FINGERPRINTS?

We don' need no steenkin' fingerprints!

**
Besides, I'm not sure chimpanzees HAVE fingerprints!

Thankfully, the AP is on the case:

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Bush holds a commanding lead over Kerry among veterans and their families. An AP-Ipsos poll last week found he was the choice of 58 percent and Kerry 38 percent. In the poll, veterans and their families said Bush was stronger and more honest than Kerry.

His appearance Tuesday came less than a week after the White House released memos saying the president was suspended from flying fighter jets for failing to meet the standards of the Texas Air National Guard three decades ago. Though questions have been raised about their authenticity, the documents helped rekindle long-unanswered questions about Bush's service. Did any member of his prominent family pull strings to get him in the Guard? Was he ever disciplined while serving?

The White House released questionable memos? Search for "CBS" in their story. Unreal.

wforever_12_more_years

first he came through for us in Florida and now I feel that some covert magician or other has been working the ole' magic again!!
Whatever it takes in 04!!



Serious times demand serious measures!!

what are you talking about?

It's amazing what happens here in the span of a few hours. Congrats Charles once again on being at the fore on this issue and coming up with yet new ways of exposing this forgery for what it is.

The truth is out finally. This was forgery. Democrats can fall to any level. And the rats are now going to deny everything. This was bound to happen. But we did not expect it to happen this fast. There is an old saying "Truth Shall Prevail." Somebody should tell CBS to learn from this old adage. But we should never let down our guard. There is more to come. Just watch as the Democrats and their henchmen the islamofascists pull more rabbits (rather rats) from their hats to spike the winning Republican steamroller. But Kerry himself seems to be losing steam. His body language and tone is that of a tired man facing the prospect of defeat.

Robin MacArthur
[Link: www.newsonterror.com...]

Looking at the image I occurred to me that local histogram equalization method would possibly create a better image of the crumple and maybe reveal more as well.

[Link: homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk...]
[Link: www.ph.tn.tudelft.nl...]

Are examples of what Histogram equalization can do.

I took Image processing and Computer Vision courses a while back and had implemented that in mathlab but I no longer have access to that environment. Does anyone have an image processing program, toolkit, or forensic program that features histogram equalization?

I would like to see the result, maybe something else useful will show up; at least the image should be better cleaner and more detailed than just adjusting the contrast.

Kamil

One part looks like a Ketchup stain. I could be wrong, but it looks like a Heinz Ketchup stain.

Then one part looks like Dan Rather's sweat stain...no, no, I think that is Dan Rather's drooling stain. Probably after he got it from Terry McCauffe. So there is a greasy stain.

Probaly from Terry's greasy palmed hands or a hamhock stain that probably happened when Michael Moore dropped it from his mouth when he was shoving it into the fax machine.

That's very interesting, but a control sample might be useful. Take an fresh sheet of paper, put it through several generations of photocopying, and scan it. Can you get the same "crumpling" effect?

#84 FloridaHeat

Your comment on thin paper got me to thinking.

I spent a number of years in the medical industry, and spent a lot of time maintaining ekg strip printers. The paper widely used even now is thermal. For most of their functional lifespan, fax machines also used thermal paper.

Looking at the crumple patterns, especially those on the bottom right corner of this document, it looks to me that this "original" has retained a lot more of the damage of crumpling than standard typing/copy paper would. Any resourseful lizardoids out there with a roll of thermal fax paper and a scanner?

Hardly proof positive, but it could add answer a few questions re the artifact and degredation of the font as well. Most thermal printers are notoriously low res...

Re #82

I downloaded all 4 PDFs, stripped out the imbedded jpegs and did a strings search. Jpegs can have embedded comments like MS Word Meta data.

All 4 PDFs have:
JFIF
Ducky
Adobe

JFIF is just defining the image as a JPEG. Adobe might be the program that created the image.

But Ducky, that is unique. I didn't find that string in any of my own jpeg files. Here is the goal, search for jpegs and pdfs that contain the work Ducky. What sites or files have the word "Ducky" embedded?

It could be a wild goose chase, but my guess is if you find "Ducky" you find the person who created the jpeg. However, that could be the a person who just scanned in the documents at CBS but if it is a person at the DNC or John Kerry's campaign, then that is explosive.

Re #110

I am finding "Ducky" in many JPEGS, so I don't think it is unique right now.