Ok first time poster... Been lurching for a year almost
(other than trying to give away some gmail addreses, which are still available if you shoot me a line stonewall.dan@gmail.com.)
I have real bad feeling in my gut that CBS is just going to ignore this till it goes away. They dont seem to be taking it all that seriously or they just dont care. With the hurricane Ivan story heating up i feel they will just ride it out till it drops of the MSM. Do any of you feel this way and do you think they can get away with it. They have already classified bloggers as partisan operatives and i think they really could care less what we think. I think we need an organized effort to broadcast that we will not put up with this crap anymore.

/disgusted wes in chapel hill

The statement isn't a secret. The Kerry Spot has a link to it.

I just recorded the interview, anyone want to host it?

I posted this on another thread, but it bears repeating.

It's time to start using the left's playbook.

We need loud demonstrations outside of every affiliate demanding that they cover the news truthfully! (radio affiliates too)

We need picket signs demanding Dan's resignation!

We need Rather paper mache heads and pink tanks if that's what it takes!! Burning effigies of Les Moonves. Come on people, lets get CREATIVE here!!

Dan's new job

This has all been posted @ the cbs news site..

see

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

"Fake but Accurate":

Remember when Clinton said that his statements to the special prosecutor may have been "misleading or deceitful, but not legally false"?

It is time for a good-ol'-fashioned-grass-roots pajama brigade BOYCOTT

familiarize yourself with its tenticles.

It clearly depends on what the definition of "forged" is.

Kisses,
Bill

I posted this on another thread but in bears repeating:

Is 60 mins II on the east coast right now? Here in the mid-south west (CST - in OK City) CBS is airing something called "last flight out" when it should be on. Do they not want to show it here? Or could it be a local affiliate backlash against Dan?

CBS has invented a new method of providing evidence. Hearsay is just hearsay, and generally not accepted. Otherwise the guy on the corner with the "The End is Near!" sign would be on the front page.
So CBS had someone make up a document to look like it is evidence for the slander they want to propigate. All of a sudden, the people who are making up the stories are considered legit, even though the papers are totally false. They let the messenger (the papers) get shot, and use its body as proof of the validity of the message... even if the messenger was an imitation.

1. Who is Pierce? Did he really authenticate? Did they go back to him after the errors were noticed? Does he still stand by authenticity? Did CBS hide him and tell him not to speak?

2. Can CBS prove Will and James lied? A see a defamation suit and civil discovery.

3. Did they go back to Katz after his ones and ells theory was blown away?

I know that I didn’t type ‘em. However, the information in those is correct,” Ms. Knox told CBS News for tonight’s roadcast.

I wonder how many little green pieces of paper Dan Rather gave her to say that!

Just imagine this conversation in a courtroom:

Attorney: "So the accused didn't ever actually confess to you like you said he did."

Witness: "That's true, but he still did everything I said he said he did, so even though I was lying, it's really the truth."

Judge: "Good enough for me"

YEAH, RIGHT!

We need loud demonstrations outside of every affiliate demanding that they cover the news truthfully! (radio affiliates too)

And even though it's NBC, don't forget the wonderful opportunity the window of the Today Show studio provides.

Interesting. They did have all six but the only used four of them. Did anyone get the attachments alluded to in the release?

I wonder how many little green pieces of paper Dan Rather gave her to say that!

He didn't have to. She's a moonbat of the "selected not elected" brigade. Still, it was nice of her to be honest about the memos being fake, regardless of her feelings about Bush.

I have just gone through the set of Bush ANG pdf files
ANG pdf files
copying Killian's signatures to a single file where I compared them to his signature on the CBS 5-4-72 memo and his initials on the 8-1-72 memo. It is not clear to me what the notations represent that are in the upper left corner of the two CBS Memo(s) to File dated 18 August 1973 and 19 May 1972.

The uncontested signatures I am looking at are from documents dated 26 May 1972, 3 Nov 1970, 6 Sep 1972, and 27 May 1971.

I am not a signature expert. I have worked with signature experts and I am aware of what they generally look for. I believe the signature and initials on the CBS documents are highly suspicious based on six points which are inconsistent with the uncontested signatures.

1) Angle of the lower loop of the capital J. In all uncontested signatures, this angle is consistently about 225 degrees (7:30). On the two CBS memos, this angle is between 190 and 170 degrees (about 6:00), well below all the U/S.

2) In all the U/S, the two loops of the capital J are approximately equal in area. In both CBS memos the upper loop is significantly larger than the lower loop.

3) In three out of the four uncontested signatures, the loops of the J meet at the center of the letter. The fourth uncontested signature J (May 27, 1971), is more similar to the CBS J's except the remaining letters of the first name begin at the point where the two loops meet. In the CBS memos, the top loop meets the lower loop well below the center of the letter, and there is no other convergence at this point, as in the 5/27/71 memo.

4) In the uncontested signature memos, the upper stroke of the capital Ks is either straight or curved slightly down at the upper end. In both the CBS memos, the upper stroke of the K curves up and to the left.

5) In the uncontested signature memos, both strokes of the Ks are equal in size. In the CBS memos, the upper strokes of the K are both much longer.

6) The double lower-case LL's in the uncontested signatures are all long and open looped. In the CBS 4 May 1972 Memo, the signature LL's are very short and closed looped.

I believe it would be extremely difficult for an expert handwriting expert to certify the two CBS documents as containing Jerry Killian's signature.

James J Pierce is a Forensic Document Examiner that states

"In my professional opinion, with what I know and have examined based on the photocopied questioed documents, the documents in question are authentic"

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

CBS must have found a document examiner that only watched CBS and lacks an internet connection.

Let the googling begin...

From the Federal Communications Commission Website at [Link: www.fcc.gov...]

“As public trustees, broadcasters may not intentionally distort the news. Broadcasters are responsible for deciding what their stations present to the public. The FCC has stated publicly that "rigging or slanting the news is a most heinous act against the public interest." The FCC does act to protect the public interest where it has received documented evidence of such rigging or slanting. This kind of evidence could include testimony, in writing or otherwise, from "insiders" or persons who have direct personal knowledge of an intentional falsification of the news. Of particular concern would be evidence about orders from station management to falsify the news. In the absence of such documented evidence, the FCC has stressed that it cannot intervene.”

“All concerns and/or comments about a specific news broadcast or commentary should be directed, in writing, to the local station and network involved, so that the people responsible for making the programming decisions can become better informed about audience opinion.

Complaints regarding news distortion, rigging or slanting can be filed with the Federal Communications Commission, Enforcement Bureau, Investigations and Hearing Division, 445 12th Street, SW, Washington, DC 20554. Complaints must be in writing and contain documented evidence in support of the allegations. For example, it is not sufficient for a complaint to allege only that a broadcast station made a mistake in reporting a news event. The complaint must include documented evidence showing deliberate misrepresentation.”

I realize that the FCC says it will not “intervene” in this affair. However, it seems to me that over one hundred thousand complaints (what is the site traffic here over the last week?) against CBS, including each and every one of its affiliates will be taken seriously and lead to an investigation at the very least.

This is bigger than Dan Rather, it is bigger than the CBS network news division.

Delenda est CBS.

I knew Dan Rather would continue to do spin and slither like snakes.

They also won't reveal their source because in all likelihood, the source is a DNC operative.

No mention of the mounds of evidence proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that the docs are forged. They are simply using their power to re-state their partisan claims.

Sickening.

CBS must be sued.

This isn't Rather's first "mistake".

His first description, in 1963, of how JFK was shot,
explained how Kennedy had a frontal wound in
the throat--because, according to Rather, he was looking
to the side, and to the back, waving, and so he was shot in the front from the back. Later, he switched his tale and conformed to the standard edition. But he also didn't get his description of the Zapruder film quite right--which he didn't correct, until others saw the film years later and then
he apologized for his errors.

I think he has a lot of friends in high places in Washington, and can call in a lot of chips; and so the hierarchy at CBS won't fire him--he's got too much clout.

This is really a defense to actual malice charges. It focuses on what CBS did to verify the documents.

It doesn't make any attempt to meet the substantial charges. Just weasal words to make the cBS team look a little less like idiots - which they completely fail to do.

Answer the questions Forger Dan. Why should W answer your questions which are based on a forgery.

Talking truth to power is what the pyjama bloggers are doing to you. You were the power. Now you are the naked emporer for all the world to laugh at.

C omplete
B ull
S hit

Fake but accurate sounds like Loni Anderson's tits.

Looks like Sullivan is having yet another "conversion experience". Hopefully this one will last.

Time to boycott any advertiser who sponsors CBS News. LGF should lead the charge.

I don't think boycotts are the answer.

I don't think floods of faxes are the answer.

I don't think an email campaign is the answer.

I don't think emails to CBS and its competitors are the answer.

I don't think bloggers on TV is the answer.

Charles, you and some of the other high-profile bloggers in this thing need to assemble your experts and develop a unified package of evidence to present to CBS.

I think the blogosphere needs to present a unified, comprehensive rebuttal based on the technical analysis that's been done over the last few days.

Right now, the case against CBS is too distributed. Those of us that have been following it know the evidence is overwhelming, and that meme is taking hold. But it is too hard to navigate all over the place, grabbing a bit from Newcomer's site here, something from the IBM experts over at Ace, Bouffard's analysis from Bill at INDC, the overlays from LGF, etc. It's just too scattered right now. It needs to be assembled and then presented to CBS as a direct challenge to this letter to their affiliates.

I DO NOT trust CBS to carry out this work. /obvious

So, I had the spin right after all.

"CBS News has been informed definitively by the New York Times that the memos are fake ...but accurate. CBS News regrets the error."

/not really

Pierce's statement is so short and limited. What "corresponding samples" is he speaking of?

Plus, the date is yesterday? wtf?? Was he trotted out recently or was part of the original work?

Marcel B. Matley states that all the signatures were signed by the same person. He was not asked to prove they were signed by the 'real' Jerry B. Killian.

The more we learn the worse it gets for CBS.

Ok this is ridiculous!!! Even I as a "average joe" can see through the burning oil CBS is trying to use as a smoke screen. Any credability is or faith I once had in network news as a whole has finally had it's last breath.
Seems that all the news casters are pompous asses who can't even admit when they make a mistake. Dan Rather needs to step up and accept he sucks and he has done wrong as a whole and quit trying to defend something that has been proven beyond any doubt in my mind. I know my thoughts mean nothing but I think if I can see through the crap most of the population can.
Abolish network news and turn it over to the bloggers they have proven in such a short time to be more reliable than any network!

This segment made me so insane I could hardly see straight. To blithely carry on and discuss the CONTENTS of a forged memo as if it mattered...!

The contents of a forged document are FRUIT OF THE FORBIDDEN TREE!

Any assertions or statements, NO MATTER WHO VERIFIES THEM FOR WHAT REASON, cannot be used in evidence because the document from which they come IS FAKE!

MORONS!

Dan is very skilled at what he does. But what does he do? Report the news? Or use his skills (including using forged docs) to promote liberal candidates?

You decide, America.

Look at the experts they list:

Matley will only testify to the signature on one copied document. He is on record as saying that it is impossible to verify a signature on a copy- one down

Will and james say they are fakes and that they told CBS about their reservations beforehand.

James J Peirce is probably bunking with Punksatawnee Phil.

Glennon is a repairman with no expertise in document analysis. They still have not stated that TANG had a typewriter able to produce the documents. Even Cox said that they only had an Olympia and a low end IBM. He was contacted AFTER this blew up in their face based on his post on the KOS website.

I'm going to continue to call all the local advertisers on CBS and reccomend forcefully that they make a wiser choice for their advertising dollars

Laura Ingraham was just on The O'Reilly Factor. Did a great job of standing up to Bill and defending bloggers and the new media, which Bill has been inexplicably critical of in the wake of Memogate.

#23

My thoughts exactly, how come the President has to answer a loser journalist who lets his personal opinions get in the way of his judgement and job.

Well, Viacom is officially on my shit list.

OT: Bill Orielly says that Dan Rather isn't the devil. I have to agree with that, I'm sure the devil would be less easily duped.

If I was the devil and making the calls for 60 minutes, I would have made better forgeries before going to air with the story.

Stupid devil wannabees.

Poor excuse of an authentication process; with their two typerwriter specialists coming in after the fact.

Who is James J. Pierce? Nothing comes up in Google.

OMG Jane Fonda is on CNN with Paula Zahn

The Jane Fonda interview just ended --- Sorry!

Having somebody provide their opinion on what SOMEBODY ELSE'S state of mind was 30 years ago!!! Isn't that called hearsay in a court of law? It is kept out because it is unreliable!!

#1 honkhonker, yes, I expected something like this would happen from the start. I was surprised Fox News, NY Post and some others came out strong and that according to polls now only 1 in 4 Americans still believes the memos are real. But the 'fake but accurate' compromise/consensus will now be pushed through as the final story for reasonable people. Dan Rather and CBS will get away with it. When Rather retires a few years from now, the story will be remembered as a proud moment where the brave reporter ruffled feathers and refused to back down in the face of powerful forces during an election season where emotions ran high on both sides. And all will be well in president Kerry's America...

CBS wants to prove the docs accurately describe what happened re:Bush. F*ck that! The documents are forgeries. What did you get them? Is it legal or illegal to forge US Govt documents?

CBS is done dead as a reliable news outlet. Not that I personally considered them reliable. But a lot of people did, and no longer do. Rather is radioactive.

What's the frequency, Dan? About every 4 years?

FYI, I just watched the Dan Rather 60 Minutes II segment, and posted a somewhat lengthy comment here:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
 

Plain and simple: CBS is playing us for fools.

#39-

Devil went down to Texas
Lookin' for some docs to steal
He was in a bind
Kerry was behind
He was willin' to make a deal.

LOL

OT:

Charles,

Is this a record?

Today
Total: 211,153
Unique: 145,642

Ok, maybe I'm one of the few old enough to remember; however

CBS/Rather are playing Nixon to Knox's role as Rosemary Woods.

I don't give a goodgoddamn if she appeared on the program with a chorus of angels behind her and she was dipped in gold. At this juncture, when CBS has been caught red-handed "expert shopping" (and still lying about their evaluations), has refused to even try and interview people like Killian's own widow and son, and NOW KNOW HOW and where they screwed up? Suddenly they locate a secretary who has confessed she hates Bush and, contrary to Killian's widow, his son and his OWN KNOWN VIEWS (as proved by the known and vetted documents) we are to believe Knox that there was a secret file (against all Guard regulations) and while the memos are FAKE they are ACCURATE?

As Tommy Flanagan (Jon Lovitz) would put it: "Welll, yeah, YEAH. They're not fakes...no..not fakes...they...are... replicas! ... that's the ticket... replicas."

Knox is old enough... after she talks Killians secret file, let's ask her what she knows about the missing 18 1/2 minutes.

#13 JWarrior, ms Knox has said she very much opposes Bush, so it's no surprise that she takes the opportunity to bash him, even though she contradicts Killian's genuine memos and remarks by Killian's family and others who worked with him and Bush at the National Guard.

#50 Darleen, yeah, that's what I meant, but you put it better...

crosspost. sorry.

Anyone who uses the phrase" selected, not elected" cannot be taken seriously about anything and should be dismissed out of hand as a crank. Yes, that's Ms. Knox.

I'm stunned (not really) that CBS would defend their own schlock propaganda with schlock propaganda from the NYT. Go ahead Dan & Co., keep feeding the Circle of Delusion, I'll have a hell of laugh at your expense November 3.

Like I said yesterday, "the secretary is gonna be a problem"... Dan used the little old lady to pivot and try to change the story, specificly:

1. the memo's are fake
2. LTC Killian expressed the thoughts in the memo's to me
3. perhaps somebody took other memos on the subject and re-typed them
4. George Bush got special treatment.

The Lady comments about fact the typewriters is fact in a court her idea about what Mr. Killiam saud is "hear say" that can not usaully be used in court. Her opinion contradict what the family Lt. Col Killiam thought about Lt. Bush.

#48 Desso Studios

LOL nice!

Holy Crap! O'Reilly and Laura Ingraham went brain-to-brain with Rumfu gesticulations and several shades of red face on "The Factor." Ingraham hammered O'Reilly over his attempts to distance himself from the "right wing" on his show this monday. O'Reilly is adamant (no not that Adam Ant) that he will always do his own research and that it takes time and is why he is suspicious of the "bloggers" like Charles.

I sensed a certain attraction between the two that hinted of the physical kind...

OT -- News From Planet Earth

Russia rejects Powell's criticism, joins forces with Israel

Right on!

# 44 P V

Sir, I must again take issue with your pessimism. In less than 168 **hrs.** CBS has gone from having "earth-shattering memos" to lawyerese-filled statements parsing the words of a handwriting guy & a typewriter repairman! The growing threat of Congressional investigations & Federal charges (Remember, there are probably a dozen U.S. attys. in the Northeast alone who constanly are on the lookout for a high-profile case to catapult them to elected office{e.g. Rudy Guliani}) will continue to force the revelation of the source very soon -- and then the real fun begins when it's G. Soros' nephew or some such thing!
:-)

No need to waste any more time on whether the documents are forgeries. The MSM are going to do their own investigations and finally get there. That process can't be stopped.

But will the public let CBS/Rather squirm out of this.

MSM has no stomach to call this what it is...why isin't there all this outrage about forget documents to sway a presidential campaign? They wont go there...

Unless America demands it. I'm afraid it is up to the liazrd legions and all other truth-seeking amnericans to demand to know:

Who is the Unimpeachable source?

Congressional hearings may be the ultimate route - perhaps we need to start thinking about contacting them to...this is after all an election year...

OT, but a way-too-funny excerpt from James Taranto's "The Best of The Web:
---
Infidels, Keep Out
This announcement appears on the Islamic-Paths.org Web site:

Insha Allah, on September 17, 2004, the New Jersey theme park, Six Flags Great Adventure, is set to be transformed as "The Great Muslim Adventure Day," an event organized by ICNA. This event is designed to provide entertainment for the entire family! Alhamdulillah, the entire park is reserved for Muslims only!

Wow, Six Flags Great Adventure is a regular Mecca of fun! But isn't it illegal for an amusement park to refuse to admit people who aren't of a certain religion?

How can you confirm a signature if it is on a photocopy you can always cut a signature out and post it on any page.

Well, FWIW, Hubby the Lobbyist just got home from a long day on the Hill. Ran into an old friend who was an RNC fundraiser and is now campaign advisor/fundraiser for Bush. I'll call him CB. CB says he wants this whole thing to go away. CB says It is Dan Rather's sole intention to hurt Bush and he will use anything and everything at his disposal to keep this story alive in the hope that someone somewhere will be persuaded. CB is afraid that someone somewhere will be and is very concerned that the media are not focusing "on message" (Bush's). CB said he is advising all Repub. talking heads to shut up about Rather and get back on msg. Hubby told CB tha his wife (that'd be me) am over the moon about this and that I despise Kerry. CB laughs and tells Hubby, "Well, you finally married above yourself, I see".

Anyway, FWIW.

WAY OT

Hey y'all...lookee here! :)

Based on over 63,000 votes cast during the ten days polls were open (12/5/2003 -12/14/2003), here are the 22 winners of 2003 Weblog Awards. An archive of all 2003 Weblog Award related posts is available here.

Click on the category name to view the vote totals for that category or go to the poll Navigation Menu

Best Overall Blog

Little Green Footballs

[Link: wizbangblog.com...]

Matley is such a fool. He put his e-mail address right in the header of his letter to CBS.

Lizard by the Bay

The secretary didn't have a choice.

She doesn't like Bush politically, that's known, and there's no way she could validate those papers without getting ripped apart for it. She (and probably Rather)know the evidence of the authenticity of the papers is against them.

So Rather has got her to agree with the contents of the faked memo as a means of backing up his story and getting some badly needed 'evidence' as to it's authenticity. (Well, enough evidence to sway the LLL anyway!). This way she will never be in trouble legally for standing by the letters, but she can still back up the contents even though there is vast evidence that Bush was a good officer.

Rather's seeing if he can just issue blanket denials of wrong doing and style his way out of the mess. He is so arrogant he thinks he won't have to answer to anybody.

Funny.

Your search - "James J. Peirce" expert - did not match any documents.

Here's the key to CBS strategy:

"For now, the disagreements among “dueling experts” have not been resolved."

They have elevated a typewriter repairman to the same level of credibility and expertise as Newcomer, thus turning the entire issue into a he-said-she-said dispute. Unfortunately, few people will look beyond he-said-she-said.

#28 Purple Fury
You are absolutely correct. The information needs to be packaged into one easy to follow, logical package. That will make it much harder to ignore.

And, while all of this is going on Kofi Anan is bloviating about how the war in Iraq is illegal...

Several local affiliates have already jumped ship, at least one to FOX.

The way to go after CBS is to pressure their local affiliates to dump them.

In accordance with longstanding journalistic ethics, CBS News is not prepared to reveal its confidential sources or the method by which 60 MINUTES Wednesday received the documents.

Hello! The source gave you fake documents to influence an election and you told you're viewers the documents were legit, the ethical thing to do is to out the source (and apologize to your viewers)!

CNN: "America's most trusted network."
FOX : "Fair and balanced."

and now,

CBS: "Fake but accurate."

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Since CBS/Rather believe Bush used pull to get into the Guard and pull to get out, they are pushing the notion that it was necessary for Dan Rather to lie to America in order to get the dullards to believe in his fantasy.

At the risk of yet another Vietnam analogy, this is like "We had to burn the village in order to save it." All your sound and fury signifies nothing. Even assuming your charges were true, patruient montes nascetur ridiculus mus applies.

Dan, why should America ever believe anything that ever comes out of your mouth again? Your pursuit of Bush is as insane as Ahab and Don Quijote combined while displaying all the expertise of Inspector Clouseau. All you have shown us is that you are comfortable in telling enormous lies to advance your lethal and partisan agenda. CBS, its affiliates, and journalists nationwide are evidently comfortable in having your behavior stand as a benchmark for anchors.

Time for Congressional investigations. Boycott CBS national advertisers. boycott CBS affiliate advertisers.

#40 ganzo azul

Who is James J. Pierce? Nothing comes up in Google.

Another DailyKos commenter?

I said it on another thread but it bears repeating

Insanity!!!

Their new evidence on '60 minutes' is Marian Carr Knox; this chick is the former secretary for the Texas Air National Guard colonel. She has said the memos are fakes!!! She also said that she knows that her dead boss, who can’t defend himself, hated Bush and that the sentiment in the memos is real. Of course she is totally unbiased. She only said that she hates Bush and that he was selected not elected. Can you imagine if your only defense in a court of law was unverifiable hearsay as told by a person that is biased?

Oh Danny boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling
From glen to glen, and down the mountain side
The summer's gone, and all the flowers are dying
'tis you, 'tis you must go and I must bide.

# 67 F H

Maybe CBS misspelled his name and it's actually Pierce?

{insert one of a dozen punch lines here!}

OT: US debates military strikes on 'nuclear Iran'

Must go - I have synagogue security duties in the morning! G'night and...

Shana Tova Everyone!

May your hair, your teeth, your face-lift, your abs, and your stocks not fall; and may your blood pressure, your triglycerides, your cholesterol, your white blood count and your mortgage interest not rise.

May you get a clean bill of health from your dentist, your cardiologist, your gastroenterologist, your urologist, your proctologist, your podiatrist, your psychiatrist, your plumber, and the Inland Revenue. May you find a way to travel from anywhere to anywhere during rush hour in less than an hour, and when you get there may you find a parking space.

May this Yom Tov, find you seated around the dinner table, together with your beloved family and cherished friends, ushering in the Jewish New Year ahead.

May what you see in the mirror delight you, and what others see in you delight them.

May the telemarketers wait to make their sales calls until you finish dinner, may your cheque book and your budget balance, and may they include generous amounts for charity.

May you remember to say "I love you" at least once a day to your partner, your child, and your parent(s). You can say it to your secretary, your nurse, your butcher, your photographer, your masseuse, your seamstress, your hairdresser or your gym instructor, but not with a "twinkle" in your eye.

May we live as intended, in a world at peace with the awareness of the beauty in every sunset, every flower's unfolding petals, every baby's smile and every wonderful, astonishing, miraculous part of ourselves. Bless you with every happiness, great health, peace and much love during the next year and all those that follow.

#57 Sol Roth

I sensed a certain attraction between the two that hinted of the physical kind...

Yeah, I noticed that too. Nothing gets the blood running like a good heated debate.

Jerry Killian's son is up next on Hannity and Colmes. Joseph Newcomer is on now.

The blogosphere is making history.

So far, I find trials with the name Pierce, James - Handwriting Analyst.

I've been contemplatig this all afternoon, and I've finally decided that the only thing CBS fears in all of this is free market capitalism.

I'm actually writing their sponsors. But I'll sober up and proofread before I send.

There simply is no other recourse but to make every effort, at the grass roots, to hurt VIACOM and CBS economically.

They don;t care that they have been caught in a ridiculously obvious lie.

they are lying their way out of it and telling everyone basically "pound sand, we're CBS."

Fuck VIACOM. Fuck CBS, Fuck anyone who advertises with them.

VIACOM stock goes below 30 per share maybe they start thinking about how their truth problem is costing them money.

FDR also, the lying son of a bitch.

Federal documents have been forged. Dan and all the suits at CBS are using them. The documents have been carried across state lines.
Did you hear about CBS's new reality show? It's called Suits in the Slammer. Sixteen CBS execs go to jail. They cry a lot. They make new friendships. They stab each other in the back. After a few years they come out, one by one, and are interviewed by Dan.

IIRC, didn't 60 Minutes get busted faking some car exposions a few years back? Thank god for the vigilent folks on the blogs fact checking the MSM. The common man can finally give those schmucks some much needed feedback.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is how much more skill it takes to fly a fighter jet than to pilot a motor boat. Any drunken redneck can tow a waterskier around, but it takes a lot of training before they even let you sit in the cockpit. It takes tremendous skill just to take off and land, let alone navigate and operate the communications and weapons systems.

You need nerves of steel and great physical conditioning to deal with the G-forces as well.

The risk of death in just training to fly is probably almost as high as steering a fast moving boat nearly out of range of small arms fire from the muddy banks of a river.

For Kerry to attack President Bush's courage is outrageous. Not to mention that he can suck my b@!!$ for his conduct after he returned. And that is on video, so there is no denying it.

But the biggest reason not to vote for this twat is his misguided faith that the UN is anything but a corrupt tool of the Arab Fascists and backstabbing Euroweenies. I'd love to hear how he plans to talk those cowards back into Iraq.

/spleen ventilation (sorry it was so long)

# 83 S G

Dateline NBC rigged GM pickups with model rocket motors to ensure they would "explode" in their "crash test" in the 1993 timeframe. GM's General Counsel did a quick investigation and even tracked down the two burnt truck shells from a junkyard to show how the tests were rigged! To this day I treat a Dateline story w/ extra skepticism because of it ...

Jeeze, un-freekin'-believable!

They have no soul.

They are just a bag of corruption.

AND... Them's their good points!

#83 SumGi

IIRC, didn't 60 Minutes get busted faking some car exposions a few years back?

No, that was Dateline (NBC)

#72...you got it...
and lots of e-mails and letters too...

also , don't forget their sponsors...

This is probably not our James J. Pierce but it is dramatic...

CBS News methodology for confirming a story:

1. "Discover" evidence
2. Find sources to verify integrity of evidence
3. If evidence is not sound, go to step 4
4. Find lackey to vouch for "accuracy" of evidence, if not its authenticity
5. If media firestorm ensues, stand on "aggressive reporting"

If the "originals" of the CBS files came from "the personal files of Lt. Col. Killian," then I guess they belong to Col. Killian's estate and, especially now, are quite valuable.

Mrs. Killian should therefore file a replevin action against John Doe, the unknown "source" of the "originals," and name CBS as a defendant. Then, CBS would have NO CHOICE but to reveal its source.

The MSM's rush to defend Rather reminds me of a joke. A suspicious lawyer hires an investigator to tape his wife's rendevous with another man. When the investigator reports back that he found the couple but was unable to see what they were doing in a darkened hotel room, the lawyer pounds the table with his fist, exclaiming, "damn that reasonable doubt."

Of course, the cuckholded lawyer represents the MSM, unwilling to admit that Dan Rather, playing the role of the wife, has been fooling around with the Democratic National Committee.

The trouble is, we're the ones getting the screwing here.

Unique: 150,021

Awesome.

An earlier example of Rather's reporting, from 1963 --

III. CBS/KRLD-TV(Dallas)

1) Dan Rather explains it all for us- The fatal wound to JFK "entered at the base of the throat and exited at the base of the neck on the back side"-

He changed his mind later, I guess. . .

(see--www.dealeyplazauk.co.uk/Network%20Anomolies. htm

#62 ddd

How can you confirm a signature if it is on a photocopy you can always cut a signature out and post it on any page.

Yup, I can forge anything with my graphic design skills as long as nobody expects to check an original. That's one reason I found these documents so laughable. They should have at least done more research before creating them if they were going to say that no original docs were available. Outright incompetence, the forger should be ashamed.

All snide humor aside, how is what Rather is doing ANY DIFFERENT from a Move-on.org ad? How is CBS/60 Minutes any different from a 527 organization?

Can anyone point out an analog on the pro-Bush side? (no- FOX News doesn't count- they dont brandish fake documents in support of Kerry smears)???

Hello Mudda, Hello Fadda,
Here I am at, Camp Bushwacka,
Camp is really, really liberal,
And Dan Rather keeps denying he's a criminal!

Tell the big lie, and tell it often,
Till your morals, fully soften,
Keep denying, that you fucked up,
Till the hurricane hits and roofs are getting sucked up!

Killian's son Gary on Hannity & Colmes right now (paraphrasing)

"We all know the documents are forgeries, so why are we talking about the contents?"

On Knox: "She's wrong." "Let me correct something, the impression is made that she was my father's secretary. She wasn't. She was there to type for any officer, so she didn't have the relationship some are trying to portray"

"The most despicable thing about this all is someone is trying to use my dead father."

Not like CBS will even take a telephone call from Killian's family. He's just a body to be used in their desperation to help Camp Kerry.

#94 TMF

FOX News doesn't count

I'll say, considering the bitch-slapping O'Reilly gave the SBVT

The program director for KPRC (the talk radio station in Houston that features Rush Limbaugh and Michael Savage) came on the air today and said he told CBS that if Dan Rather remains as a CBS radio commentator, KPRC will dump CBS for Fox for their hourly news updates. He (the program director) said he would not allow Dan Rather to broadcast on his station anymore.

The fact that this statement was released I think shows CBS is in "stall until it goes away" mode. The only thing to change this will be loss of $$$.

# 95 M M

Nice verse, but I predict even the mighty winds of Ivan cannot save Blather from the clutches of ...

The Blogosphere!!!

{insert demonic cackling}

#61 Asylum Aleikum

But isn't it illegal for an amusement park to refuse to admit people who aren't of a certain religion?

What they will probably do is say that you have to be a member of ICNA. My company has taken over the local Six Flags and done the same thing.

Guys and gals,

I reiterate a strategy I've repeated several times:

Picketing outside CBS News Headquarters, armed with laptop computers showing the "overlay" animations, and with physical transparencies of same, and posters decrying the fraud.

I believe CBS will never give up and admit they posted fraudulent documents unless some up-front, in-their-face embarassment and advertising revenue decrea$e comes their way.

By the way: anyone know the medical status of the 86 year old? Alzheimers or other memory problems? Little Old Ladies with memory deficits are known to confabulate.

Would her testimony hold up on cross-examination?

okay, found something on James Pierce, Handwriting Analyst. He is NOT a document expert, and the one instance of a trial description where I found him he was shot out of the water by the opposition.

[Link: www.signascan.com...]

EXPERT TESTIMONY
According to defendant: Plaintiff's expert Charles, an anesthesiologist, testified that the care received by plaintiff was reasonable and necessary. Plaintiff's expert Pierce, a handwriting analyst, testified that plaintiff signed all of her physical therapy treatment logs on different occasions. He did not believe that the physical therapy signatures were fraudulent. The defense expert, John Cerlanek, a document examiner, testified that the physical therapy logs signed by plaintiff pm 29 occasions revealed strong evidence of fabrication and fraud. There were 29 physical therapy sessions with 29 signatures from plaintiff. Cerlanek was able to determine from habitual analysis and more importantly through scientific analysis that plaintiff signed in blocks, i.e., four or five signatures at one time, possibly all at once. The jury commented after the trial that the handwriting presentation by defendant was credible and showed strong evidence of fraud on the part of the plaintiff.

COMMENTS
According to defendant: The jury was strongly persuaded by defendant's handwriting expert, John Cerlanek, and did not believe that plaintiff's handwriting expert refuted any of his testimony. Defense counsel reported that plaintiff's counsel has inferred they will file a motion for new trial. The insurance company was Interinsurance Exchange of the Autombile Club of Southern California, Los Angeles Unit; the adjuster was Carol Lucas

#80 glwing,
James Pierce is another Handwriting Analyst? That would be useless again... Is it CBS' James Pierce? What kind of cases did he do?

Well, there's not doubt about it

Carl Bernstein is a total sh*t.

sorry. 2nd crosspost. gotta type faster...

#78 Advanced Mammoth

Or maybe it was just me attracted to her (intelligence) and projecting myself into O'Reilly's place.

In either case, O'Reilly sure as hell was muted for a period and oggling her blonde fervor.

All this "side issue" crap is stupid, how convenient. "I can't argue that CBS didn't commit fraud, so I will instead focus on the content of their fraudulent claims."

It's not like the claims even matter. Bush isn't running on his heroic service in the Air National Guard during the Vietnam War "to do so would be ridiculous".

#63 grayp

This is a no win situation for Bush. If we decide to let this ride, Kerry wins. If we persue it, Kerry wins.
UNLESS someone developes a conscience and does a 'deep throat' on CBS and whoever else is involved in this scam. I'm hoping this will happen, that someone will get scared and start talking.

This is maybe OT, but I am just ready to scream if I hear one more person say that GWB as selected not elected!!!

Yeah, OK that was me on the Ferry screaming as I listened to kvi 570, tonight, here in Washington.

Mrs Knox has a few years on me so I will be respectful but when will this old gal admit that if GWB was not elected then Kennedy wasn't either. I am old enough to remember that election and Kennedy did not win the popular vote. Did she hate him too?

All the Dumbs, I mean Dems have no problem with their boy winning wothout the popular vote but the sure get a twist in their knickers when a Republican does. Maybe they need some of the "memory juice" that CBS provided Mrs Knox with.

I'm really feeling a rant coming on...

Was that written by some jagoff trying to stem his brothers death row switch at San Fuckin' Quinten, ...or what.
The most pathetic, ivy fucking league shit I have seen in weeks.
You all buy Heyward's load and diatribe regarding ANYTHING dan and c-bs.
Well, you a fool.

#28 Purple Fury:

I agree that someone or several someones should coordinate the facts into cohesive and consecutive form. But I'm not sure the bloggers should pursue this even into the courts. It's possible but maybe the exposure has been enough. CBS is not going to change their tune and as far as the documents, anytime, in any debate, they are raised they can be discredited simply because of the cloud they are under.

We wanted to discredit the memos because we believe our experts have proved they are fake. CBS doesn't want to admit that publicly, though privately I believe they have. We still have a war to fight and the rest of the election to concentrate on.

I'm not sure a whole lot more can be done about these documents unless the Congressional Hearing or someother quasi-judicial process looks at it and makes a decision and you know how often that happens. Look at the 9-11 Commission.

I think we've exposed CBS and Rather to quite a bit of a hot seat and though they didn't break, I think we may have to content ourselves with the fact that both Dan and his boss looked extremely defensive and befuddled; as if they woke up in the middle of Ivan and didn't know where they were. I don't think they knew what hit them with this bloggers response.

The alphabet networks were complaining last fall they thought AC Nielsen's television index ratings were wrong because they showed no one was watching. The ABC, NBC and CBS networks accused AC Nielsen of giving them wonky figures. But the truth is that their former audience is now here, online getting our news from more reputable sources and discussing it with people who know what they're talking about and fact check items.

They walked into a buzz saw with this news item when their 'missing' audience suddenly turned up and bit them in the ass for their arrogance and assumptions that we were mushrooms and they could feed us B.S. and keep us in the dark.

We proved they can't and CBS and Dan Rather will never be trusted again, even if we don't go any further.

If there's something that can be done, by all means, do it. But don't go out of your way. We've certainly made our point and Charles has made the blogworld felt in the MSM. And they don't like it one little bit. But that's our revenge!

Tammy Bruce on KABC 790, Los Angeles #1 talk station just talked up LGF. Told listeners to visit & see the forgery/Word overlay animation.

#108 quark2,

What makes you think Kerry is going to win?

Well you have to admit that this shift in tactics is better than what Dan's tried so far. Bring out the old lady and have her attack Bush. Then point out that Killian's son and wife disagree but then don't interview them either. The whole thing has now officially become a he-said she-said. Even the secretary disputes the authenticity of the documents.

Here's the facts though: Three out of four document examiners did NOT authenticate the memos. The fourth is appears to be a hand writing expert who only verified the signature. Must have a lot of confidence in his work because those were photocopies he verified not originals. Someone could easily have lifted the signature from another document and pasted it on there with Photoshop. Everyone knows how easy that is.

CBS has been caught red-handed on this one, but people need to remember that the Rather-types have been controlling and shaping perception in this country for DECADES now. Let this be the wake-up call.

We now need to go back through American history for the PAST FOUR DECADES and look at how this cadre of professional liars has shaped our civic life and controlled our history.

From Watergate to Vietnam to the present, what if this memo-scandal is just the tip of the iceberg? I think it is, and this is just standard operating procedure for them, something they've been getting away with for decades.

I keep thinking about the Matrix movies--when Keanu Reeves wakes up, pulls the plug from the back of his skull and suddenly realizes that the world he's been living in and taking for granted was a maliciously constructed illusion.

#95 Maine's Michael

certainly captures the mood of the newsday, thanks for the laugh.

The way to shut CBS up? The way to have the LLL's crawling under the bed with their blankey and sucking their thumbs?

GW needs to win BIG in Nov. Even in "blue states"...each and every anti-idiotarian needs to for GW AND VOTE STRAIGHT TICKET.

Does "Handwriting Analyst" automatically exclude "Document Analyst"?

Carl Bernstein was just on H&C: The unofficial postion is already well entrenched, and the spin has been established: It doesn't matter if the documents were forged, if the information therein is deemed to be "accurate." Unbelievable!

Since there's already a New York Observer thread on the CBS matter

The Observer starts laying the groundwork for a "false flag" / "black op" set up:

Who Is ‘Buckhead’? Kerry Assaulter Seemed Prepped

First (leaving aside how suspiciously well Buckhead puts sentences together for a righty blogger), there’s the extraordinary, yeah, boggling, knowledge of typewriting arcana. More remarkable still are the circumstances under which discernment occurred. Namely, viewing the document on a TV screen from a presumed distance of six to a dozen feet. Folks who make their living at this sort of thing rely on magnifying glasses, if not microscopes. And they don’t venture opinions unless the document’s in their puss.

Then there’s the warp speed with which Buckhead discerned monkey business. The last big document mess was the trove that conned Seymour Hersh into believing Jack Kennedy signed a contract with Marilyn Monroe agreeing to pay a hundred grand in consideration of her shutting up about their adventures between the sheets, as well as his pillow talk of owing the 1960 election to the good offices of Chicago mob boss Sam (Momo) Giancana. Their exposure (in which your correspondent had a walk-on) took weeks. And those documents were nutso on their face.

Another timing oddity which may or may not be related to the mysterious Buckhead, depending on your choice of villain, is the Pentagon’s release of allegedly newly-discovered records of Mr. Bush’s flight hours and middling piloting abilities one day almost to the minute before Mr. Rather’s report—following four months of insisting there were no more documents to disgorge. Second coincidence: The Pentagon release came hours after the Boston Globe, poring through yet other records, reported that Mr. Bush "fell well short of meeting his military obligation" by failing to report to a Boston-area Guard unit after he enrolled in the Harvard Business School, and by earlier ducking out on required training and drills for a total of nine months. Either could have landed Mr. Bush on full-time active duty for two years, potentially in Vietnam. But he received no punishment whatsoever.

Finally, there’s a detail that appears to have escaped press notice: The Web site where Buckhead’s posting appeared also happens to be the repository for anti-Jew, anti-Catholic, anti-homosexual, anti-John Kerry rants by Jerome R. Corsi, Ph.D. And whom, you ask, is Dr. Corsi? Co-author of the best-selling Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry, that’s who.

Pat Caddell rules!

Sent this to the station manager of my local CBS affiliate:

As a network affiliate of the CBS television network, and as a broadcaster licensed to use the public airwaves, your station has a responsibility to serve the public interest. In light of the abundant evidence which has emerged in the past week that CBS News has used forged documents in its reportage of President Bush's service in the National Guard, it is your responsibility to determine for your station whether continuing your contractual relationship with CBS
television serves the public interest. I urge you to consider severing that relationship, and preserving the standards of responsible and competent journalism.

#109 mommerbomber, you're right about Kennedy! And he really stole the election with fraud in Chicago. Even John F Kennedy Jr. made joking references to that several times in his magazine George.

I think CBS will definitely try to stall this at least through the election. They are clearly putting everything on the line for Kerry.

#118 Frank IBC,

Yes, it does. One deals with the sweeps and lifting points of a signature, the other is completely separate--could this paper be made from, say, 1970s technology?

Also, sadly, the guy they got for "handwriting authentication" is not licensed by any national organization.

CAN YOU FORM A 527 to get the word out on this???

#115 AlexM

"I keep thinking about the Matrix movies--when Keanu Reeves wakes up, pulls the plug from the back of his skull and suddenly realizes that the world he's been living in and taking for granted was a maliciously constructed illusion."

Exactly.

How much of our History is forged?

Now heres a money quote from the secretary:

"Knox said Col. Killian liked Mr. Bush, but not his attitude.

"Killian was very friendly with Bush. They had fun together. And I think it upset him very much that he was being defied," she said.

It yet another cheap shot at Bush, without them having to have any kind of substance to back it up.

Darleen: If Bush won Cali it would be devistating. A miraculous day for the right, and armageddon for the left.

WHOA!

Pat Caddell, former Dem Strategist is giving Colmes apoplexy... he's standing up for bloggers and slammed both the LATimes and NYTimes are idiots for the Fake but Accurate thing!!!

Oh god...he's doing a Zell Miller!

# 120 SCJ

I'm not too concerned -- That columnist makes Kos look reasonable
:-)

CBS's defense is called, technically, the "Blind Camel" defense. It goes like this, "If you are selling a blind camel, praise the feet."

Misdirect, obfuscate, and put on as sincere and convincing face as you can.

Of course, people will believe that it is possible this Texas Air National Guard Officer, who didn't type, who used a secretary, somehow got an expensive typewriter to type just these particular memos that CBS got... somehow. Dan has found people who are willing to support his notion about the President being AWOL. It is just the damn evidence that is missing and has to be produced somehow. And produced NOW, to make it a story.

Dan believes it, God knows. He's believed it for years. Everyone he knows believes it and he wants you to believe it. The trick is to put on a really sincere and convincing face.

VENT

I am so god damned tired of my posts not being posted when I hit post !!!

#129

GW may not win CA, but the polls have narrowed a lot more than people thought and its making some very very nervous.

I rarely see any Kerry stickers... I've spotted some GW ones. Not a lot of campaign stuff up yet, but the only streetside thing I saw was a few vets with a Bush/Chenney stand on a major intersection waving flags and signs last week.

OT: Happy Jewish New Year to all my fellow Jewish LGF lizard buddies out there from this goyem! May peace, good things and a dead ugly fishy be part of your New Year blessings. Mazel Tov!

# 133 j d

I hear ya bro. I just lost one on this very thread

Darnit Dan, just resign so we can get back to the wit & soul that is justdanny!
:-)

It is scary to think that CBS and their defenders are actually arguing that the spirit of the documents matters more than their authenticity.

This is ridiculous...how can anyone even comment on the accuracy of forged documents?

We cannot allow CBS to get away with this...they are basically seeking to turn our concepts of truth and evidence on their head.

According to them, if you are convinced of your opinion, it is OK to use fraudulent materials to prove that point. Unbelievable.

"Fake but accurate."

That's kind of like "pregnant but virginal."

But only one enitity in the universe could cause an object or person to be something and not something at the same time.

God.

If the memos are fake but accurate then God had to have created the memos.

In other words this is the Immaculate Deception.

#120 SoCalJustice,

It seems to offend the author's sense of self-worth the very idea that someone on the 'right' could possibly be smart, knowledgable of typewriter arcana, and, worse of all, articulate and able to express himself lucidly in his prose.

More bigotry from the Left. If you replaced "righty blogger" (which, by the way, Buckethead is not) with "Jew" or "Black", it would fail the bigot test.

#106 Sol Roth

Or maybe it was just me attracted to her (intelligence) and projecting myself into O'Reilly's place.

In either case, O'Reilly sure as hell was muted for a period and oggling her blonde fervor.

Personally, I think they both needed a cigarette after that. She looked like she was digging him, and I'm sure it was reciprocated. Whether either would act on it is another matter entirely.

#140,

Well, she isn't married yet.

# 140 A M

Uh, there's a 20 year age diffeence and Bil's married ...

Wake up and smell the copy paper..they can care less what anyone thinks about this story.. they know what is the REAL things you MUST care about.. stfu and learn..

Some former DNC campaign guy non Hannity and Colmes now...he said that "liberal anger" is killing his party...he actually is making some pretty cogent points. Anyone watch this guy (Pat Addell I think his name was)?

#103 Peter

I've Googled and Googled this James J Pierce. Nothing.

Did a Google without the "J" and got one handwriting expert that does trials--small time trials in Calif. NOT saying this is the same guy.

And for those that missed Brit Hume last night, he had the poop on Matley. ZERO credentials--no college, phd,...zip. Got his start doing, are you ready? Spiritual handwriting analysis.

# 144 m s

Pat Caddell has been the lone sane Dem voice in the wilderness on this story since last week. God bless him -- it must be like being a moderate muslim in Iran ...
:-0

toast...burnt toast

#126 one-truth-poney 9/15/2004 06:35PM PST

Pajamahadeen Veterans for Truth?

Has a nice ring to it I think

"Again, the documents used for the 60 MINUTES Wednesday report were copies, and most of the analysis fueling the current controversy is based on scanned, downloaded, faxed or re-copied copies. For now, the disagreements among “dueling experts” have not been resolved"

There is a saying that every person in the world has a double. A Doppelganger. These lying bastards expect us to believe that the process of faxing, copying and recopying made a document that _exactly_ matches a typewritten document with a Word document. Not once, not twice but _four_ fucking times! A Quadrupleganger?

No, what happened here is that their "background research" led CBS to believe what the memo's said before they were uncovered. Voila'! They match.

You know, I hate boycotts. I really do. But these Fucktards deserve it.

If anyone has stories about CBS affiliates not carrying tonight's 60 Minutes, send 'em to Instapundit. I think he's collecting these.

The difference here is that we all know we are posting opinions. Dan Rather presumes to tell us "facts" based on evidence and checked.

He has disgracefully attempted to pawn off an opinion as a fact.

It is scary to think that CBS and their defenders are actually arguing that the spirit of the documents matters more than their authenticity.

This is ridiculous...how can anyone even comment on the accuracy of forged documents?

We cannot allow CBS to get away with this...they are basically seeking to turn our concepts of truth and evidence on their head.

According to them, if you are convinced of your opinion, it is OK to use fraudulent materials to prove that point. Unbelievable.

If CBS can use that sort of hokey logic, maybe it should be applied to some of the things they raised hell about in regards to the charges brought up against people like Clinton and Kennedy.

Or hey, for all you NAACP types out there. If we use the CBS methods, that means that the "glove", while it didn't fit OJ's hand (supposedly), is just as valid as evidence then..right?

#118 Frank IBC

Does "Handwriting Analyst" automatically exclude "Document Analyst"?

You'd have to ask one of the lawyerly types here who hire experts for court. I would assume an expert of either type would advertise their services, or appear in the records of court cases that are posted on the web. I was able to find a couple of references to James Pierce, Handwriting Analyst but they didn't say anything about document examiner, nor was he consulted for that purpose. I was not able to find anything on the James J. Peirce (different spelling) who authenticated the CBS documents.

What unmitigated vipers. If such shenanigans were tried in the court of law, they would first be laughed at and then charged with trying to perpetrate a fraud upon the court despite the "accuracy" of the information contained in fraudulent documents.

But unfortunately this smear is being tried in the court of public opinion and this is where the kangaroo court of the partisan media syndicate (pms) reigns supreme...for now.

But consider this, I don't see Bush's numbers eroding and the real news is his campaign is shoring up support throughout the battlefield states. I think 60 Minutes and C-BS may have made a tactical error in throwing their best shot too early in the contest. They admit to working on this angle for nearly five years! And it does look like at least C-BS has tacitly coordinated with the Democrats' favored son blitz. But in seven weeks, who really will care?

It is possible the negativity, shrillness, and histrionics practiced by the media wing of the Democratic party could end up helping Bush. Many people already have a pretty low opinion of network journalists.

I, for one, believe in divine providence (go ahead and laugh, make my day) and whatever political machinations that man may put together will not affect the outcome. From a more secular perspective, I guess the axiom about "the best laid plans of mice and men..." could apply here. Bush and his campaign team are pretty saavy people. Karen Hughes is very, very formidable and just mentioning Karl Rove is enough to make most liberals quiver in abject loathing so this may cause the left and Kerry (where's the other John-John?) to make even more political blunders.

I called the local CBS affiliate’s newsroom tonight after Rather’ s stonewall- they sounded harassed. “That’s not us, that’s New York, I can give you the number there to call. We don’t have anything to do with it.” The local news (immediately following national) reported the controversy more evenly than Rather did, and said they had asked to interview Rather but “time just ran out.” Very curious.
Instapundit notes several CBS affiliates did not carry 60 Minute II tonight.
Where is the Last Honest Woman/ Man at CBS (or, Dan’s Deep Throat?) How long until we hear from him / her?

#142 Buckaroo

Uh, there's a 20 year age diffeence and Bill's married...

The age difference I doubt would be much of an obstacle. Bill's marriage however definitely would be. Which is why it's another matter entirely.

#145 glwing

And for those that missed Brit Hume last night, he had the poop on Matley. ZERO credentials--no college, phd,...zip. Got his start doing, are you ready? Spiritual handwriting analysis.

Yeah, I saw that spiritual handwriting thing too. Maybe he can do a reading on the signature and give us some insight about the forger?

Ever notice that on television, the CBS memos don't look half as bad as the ones they posted on the internet? What's up with that? They look cleaner and neater.

Oxymorons:

1. jumbo shrimp
2. working vacation
3. journalistic ethics

Remember Jury Nulavacation.. that was fine to get OJ out of murder.. but god help the guy who defends himself with a gun and doesn't get 20 years for shooting a burgular in the ass. This is CBS Election Nulavacation and God help america when they don't get Kerry Heinz sliver star dog as CIC we will all be the new world Nazis.

#157 AdvancedMammoth,

Makes you wonder about Vince Foster, no? Matley "authenticated" his signature on the purported suicide letter.

True Lies! Lenin would be proud of the 'unity of opposites'.

one-truth-poney #60 - "Who is the Unimpeachable source?"
The only unimpeachable guy I know of is Slick Willy :-P

#144 mad_scientist

Some former DNC campaign guy non Hannity and Colmes now...he said that "liberal anger" is killing his party...he actually is making some pretty cogent points. Anyone watch this guy (Pat Addell I think his name was)?

That was Pat Caddell. He's well on his way to becoming my favorite liberal. He's inching his way up there with Zel.

viewing the document on a TV screen from a presumed distance of six to a dozen feet

Wasn't it on CBS' website?

Then there’s the warp speed with which Buckhead discerned monkey business.

And just how long does it take to look at a document to notice that it is not in Courier, which was the standard for most typewriters? About two seconds. You don't even have to read the individual words to do that.

And they don’t venture opinions unless the document’s in their puss.

Like Sandy Berger, perhaps?

Another timing oddity which may or may not be related to the mysterious Buckhead, depending on your choice of villain, is the Pentagon’s release of allegedly newly-discovered records of Mr. Bush’s flight hours and middling piloting abilities one day almost to the minute before Mr. Rather’s report—following four months of insisting there were no more documents to disgorge.

This coincidence works both ways, idiot.

#163 A_M

He seemed like a cool guy, but wow was he rambling on. He was either in some serious speed or really pissed off.

Ya know that form 180 Kerry refused to sign...

NEWS FLASH
Turns out several have turned up (give me more time with MS Word and there will be more. Crumpling to follow, of course.)

My 86 year old grandma can verify them. She swears I'm an honest, trustworthy person and 'sides, she remembers being, ah...hearing some say...ah...she was there!
Reporter in Nam...honest.
AND, I asked the Ouiji board if all this was authentic and just fleeewww to YES.
Rather will run this, right?

@113 addison

Sorry, I mean't this round of taking the heat off of him.
I don't believe he is going to win the election, never did.
But as grayp posted earlier, all this attention shifting is manipulation to get the spotlight off of Kerry. It gives him a breather. We don't need that either.
I'm all for fricaseeing Ra_ther and 'SeeBS'. They need to pay the price of the game they're paying.
At the same time Kerry needs to have his feet kept to the fire as well.

Nulavacation

Hmmm...sounds like what I am going through - the week after vacation with huge piles of work.

"Nullification", my friend. :)

I have never been so freaking furious at a news organization.

I was pissed at CNN for "Operation Tailwind".

I was incredibly pissed at CNN for their admission that they covered up atrocities by Saddam Hussein so they could keep their Baghdad bureau open.

But this pisses me off anf frustrates me to NO end. CBS is lying. Flay out lying. They've been caught in a trap of their own making and they are digging in.

They are either the biggest patsy in the world or they are delibrately trying to influence a presidential election.

THE FOURTH ESTATE IS SUPPOSED TO GUARD AGAINST THIS FROM HAPPENING!

They are supposed to be servants of the TRUTH, dammit!

I am not letting this go, and neither should any of you!

KEEP UP THE PRESSURE!!

SIC SEMPER TYRANNUS!!!

Then there’s the warp speed with which Buckhead discerned monkey business.

And given that millions were watching this, what's the probability that not even one of them, with all the document experts in the audience, would notice this?

Close to nil.

Ultimately, they played a peripheral role in the authentication process and deferred to Mr. Matley, who examined all four of the documents used.

This bizarre sentence jumped out at me: Matley has already announced that he has no knowledge of typography, only hand writing analysis. So the two typography experts who say these are fake played a "peripheral role" and deferred to Matley?! How stupid do they think we are? What is their plan? Ivan comes ashore and we all forget about this story? Dan Rather is the new Donald Segretti.

#155 Jim in Virginia

I called the local CBS affiliate’s newsroom tonight after Rather’ s stonewall- they sounded harassed. “That’s not us, that’s New York, I can give you the number there to call. We don’t have anything to do with it.” The local news (immediately following national) reported the controversy more evenly than Rather did, and said they had asked to interview Rather but “time just ran out.” Very curious.
Instapundit notes several CBS affiliates did not carry 60 Minute II tonight.
Where is the Last Honest Woman/ Man at CBS (or, Dan’s Deep Throat?) How long until we hear from him / her?

Sounds like the sane members of the crew don't want to go down with the Captain. This is quite reassuring news.

#161 addison

Makes you wonder about Vince Foster, no? Matley "authenticated" his signature on the purported suicide letter.

Wow, good point. Did he authenticate his dust repellant shoes too?

144- how young are you anyway?
Caddell was McGovern's brilliant campaign manager back in, um, 1972. Just yesterday, when I was, um, 2.
(McGovern- ran for President against Nixon.)

Dr. Emilio Lesardo comes to mind:

"EGAD! It makes the ganglia twitch!"

Forget exploding heads, how does Dan Rather's head not collapse from the vacuum up there?

This is a show of complete worship of situational ethics. Since they are not a court of law, sure, no legal requirement to stick to any rules of evidence, yet, there is the rejection of any form of morality. I daily am further confused at where the continuing decline into a pit filled with hatred has come from and where it is going. Instead of seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, it just keeps getting more depraved. You'd think Dan Rather had had a daughter and a wife drug off a side walk by a Bush family member, who took them home and raped them, then executed them for the simple reason of the perpetrator having no soul.

You'd think the Kennedy family never displayed any form of this type of behavior, but, back to situational ethics, they are Democratic and therefore "for the people."

I'm not sure what you call it in your state, but here in the heart of the Hurricane Alley (at least for the previous few weeks), we have this think called the Baker Act. When someone is acting crazy, law enforcement will actually come and subdue them and take them to a safe place for at least a few days. That's done, as is all too obvious, when people cease to be able to reason.

Maybe we don't need health care and campaign funding reform as much as we need a national level Baker Act, so when this happens, we can have the really irrational, foaming at the mouth people taken to a quiet place for a few days, until (after lots of thorazine, or whatever we use now) they regain a rational degree of thought.

Now, something I have noticed about human nature, and I wonder if anyone else agrees: If someone is telling the truth, there is a noticable calmness in their explanations and they say things without hesitation, yet not like they are over-anxious to get their story out. When someone is lying, they are either frantic, nervous, displaying speech patterns that indicated they are still thinking (read: making up) about the story. Either that, or they are like way too unemotional for the circumstances, and actually appear with a disgusting smuggness. How about Susan Smith and Scott Peterson?

Anyhow, I think President Bush has been quite temperate in his speechs, and John Kerry looks like he is coming unhinged. Who knows, maybe I'm WAAAYYY off base here...:)

"whereever you go, there you are!" - BB

#167 quark

I agree on holding Kerry's feet to the fire as well, but this story is just to big to ignore. Also, if it happens to come out that someone with links to the Kerry campaign generated these frauds, then the race is over.

Here's hoping that someone with some knowledge, and an ounce of integrity, will come out and rat out who propagated this farce. I'm sure a nice payday will be out there for them, maybe a book deal, who knows?

Several random observations:

1. As a trial lawyer, I thought the secretary was rather likable. Do not attack her. She is basically a nice person. Instead, focus on all the she confirms: the memos are fake, Bush was present for duty often enough she claims to know him well (she cannot know him if he is not around), Bush was a gentleman always, Bush made his parents proud, Killian liked him, etc. She actually seemed to like Bush.

2. She did not really have any strong, concrete factual observations to offer. Polite, gentle cross examination would defuse her easily. She is not a liar, just opinionated. Attacking her would be taking the bait Dan wants you to take. Instead, think of the way Andy Griffith handled the upset little old ladies who were always fussing at him. "Now, now, Mrs. Johnson..." "Now, Clara...". The secretary reminds me of the ladies in our church who will always find something to nit-pick. No one really listens to them, which is why they are always talking about something.

3. Of course, you would have the secretary confirm that Col Killian did say very positive things about Lt. Bush, such as the report Charles posted earlier.

4. As an aside, the idea of Killian keeping these memos as CYA material doesn't make sense. If the memos do reflect his personal opinion, then he was not doing his duty. His duty was to assess his officers honestly. If he did not, he was derelict. How then would the memos help him in the event he was ever challenged on his ratings of Bush? They would not help him, is the answer. Indeed the memos would convict him as derelict. So, why would he keep them? He wouldn't. The question to the secretary is whether Col Killian would shirk his duty. Of course, he wouldn't, she would say. If there had been a real problem of any magnitude, the Colonel would have reported it -- you know she would agree.

5. It also seemed like the secretary limited her complaints to the time that Bush worked on the senate campaign. I imagine that did chap her pretty well if she was a life long southern democrat. Remember, she comes from another time. I bet she bleeds democrat. Up until very recently, the south was a one party region. Many southerners viewed voting republican the same as treason. I still remember the tongue lashing my aunt gave me when she found out I registered republican. The registrar actually called my dad to tell him I wouldn't listen to reason and register "right". The secretary belongs to that democrat time. I bet if you got her talking, she would have little in common with the modern, national democratic party.

6. Presumably she would agree to be interviewed by others, besides CBS.

7. Interesting that CBS itself did not think enough of her to interview her before the scandal broke.

8. Sources: we don't need to have the source's name. But, Dan should give us his occupation, his connection. If nothing else, Dan should confirm or deny DNC involvement, etc. E.g., were the memos given to CBS by the DNC, or the Kerry campaign?

I am new to this posting stuff, so I could really be going "Black Helicopter" on this, but here goes: I have not heard anyone really raise the possibility that Rather himself may have had a hand in the creation of the memos...too far out there? The last thing I want to do is throw bombs like others (Karl Rove involvement, etc.), but these did originate somewhere. CBS's failure to offer anything even remotely resembling a retraction or similar just makes me suspicious.

check out Drudge for the latest

Did they really say that Mary Mapes' credibility has never been challenged?

Allow me:

I hereby challenge Mary Mapes' credibility.

Thank you.

#174 Jim in Va

144- how young are you anyway?

I am 28 years young.

#165 mad_scientist

He seemed like a cool guy, but wow was he rambling on. He was either in some serious speed or really pissed off.

LOL.. I would tend to go with the pissed off theory, but I can't claim expertise in authenticating the effects of speed use.

Drudge says CBS memo's traced to Texas Kinko's store??? Anyone have a clue as to wear this is leading?

#111 foreign devil

Thanks for the well-thought out reply. We're in complete agreement, I think.

My main concern, and this comes mainly from watching Rather tonight, and also from reading leftie blogs, is that the strength of the blogosphere -- its semi-chaotic & distributed nature, is hindering the technical case against these documents.

What the CBS response to affiliates seems to require, IMO, is an effective consensus, argued from a position of reasonable blogospheric and expert authority, that rebuts, point by point, all of these ridiculous claims that CBS and various other leftie blogs continue to raise.

I have followed this story very closely for a week, and I feel every objection has been met convincingly, but there is no single place I can point to to make that case. I have to go to this website for this, another website for that.

I think it would be very compelling if the high-powered bloggers on this case, and we all know who they are, would collaborate on (or endorse) a single site that references their arguments, artifacts, and expert opinion that refutes the CBS case, point by point.

I might be all wet, and I'm certainly not trying to create work for everyone. But there's a time for swarms, and there's a time for One Big Hammer.

#149 Quilly Mammoth - are you also One Thumb over on the Bar?

#122 Dar

EXCEPTIONALLY well said.

Mind if I borrow?

#158 Obscure

Ever notice that on television, the CBS memos don't look half as bad as the ones they posted on the internet? What's up with that? They look cleaner and neater.

Those are higher resolution scans of the physical documents. They cant post the high res scans because they'd be too large of a download.

and thinking of Lt. Col. Killian, Lt. Bush’s squadron commander in the Guard, at the time

BEWARE OF MIND READERS!!!

#178 At his point it is immaterial whether Rather did, or did not, assist in this forgery; personally I cannot imagine anyone over 35 was involved in the fabrication of these, it is barely a forgery, more like a high school prank, but Dan Rather has now ceased to be an unwitting victim and crossed over into a willing collaborator. This is known in the penal code as Accessory after the Fact, and yes a crime has been committed, see #20 Coyote above.

ACCESSORY AFTER THE FACT - Whoever, knowing that an offense has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact; one who knowing a felony to have been committed by another, receives, relieves, comforts, or assists the felon in order to hinder the felon's apprehension, trial, or punishment. U.S.C. 18

#183 mad_scientist

Drudge says CBS memo's traced to Texas Kinko's store??? Anyone have a clue as to wear this is leading?

Perhaps to the mysterious

Hmmm.

Drudge is reporting that:

CBS Guard Documents Traced to Texas Kinko's...WASH POST: Documents allegedly written by deceased officer that raised questions about Bush's service with Texas National Guard bore markings showing they had been faxed to CBS News from a Kinko's copy shop in Abilene, Texas... Developing...

If true, that highly suggests that a certain Texas Guardsman is the one who forged the documents.

#103 Floridaheat,

That is the only thing I found too on this Pierce.

So the documents were faxed from a Kinko's in Texas, according to Drudge, and we have an 'authentication' from another handwriting analyst - and how do you authenticate a signature from a photocopy or fax, please? - and we have an unqualified handwriting analyst who only verified one signature.

I don't usually do this, but...What the Fuck?!

This proves nothing at all.

And how come CBS says nothing about their 'experts' qualifications?

Bill Burkett lives near Abilene (a part of Texas I am familiar with as I lived in San Angelo for four years). New York Times says so.

Mr. Burkett declined to return telephone calls to his home near Abilene, Tex. His lawyer, David Van Os, on Tuesday repeatedly refused to say in a telephone interview whether the officer had played a part in supplying the disputed documents to CBS. Mr. Van Os said "the real story is and should be, where was George Bush?" and that Mr. Burkett "is not the proper object of attention."

149: Quilly Mamoth (aka One Thumb).

Man, what are you doing here? They close your tab at the bar (bar.baen.com)?

Seems See-BS ought to break down and buy the backhoe, as this hand trenching is just way too slow. I mean, they must still have a shred of credibility SOMEWHERE? It's not like the left's designated partisans are now fleeing (anyone seen Juan Williams lately?) and the old dinosaurs (Chappaquidik Ted) are picking up the slack...

Da_Wiz Sends
Pulix Delenda Est

So much for "Courage" as Gunga Dan's tagline. I suppose now he will throw out his arms, flash the V for Victory with both hands, and yell "I AM NOT A CROOK" at the top of his lungs, to conclude what few newscasts he has left.

Hey, it worked for Nixon...for a while.

#191 Obscure

If true, that highly suggests that a certain Texas Guardsman is the one who forged the documents.

Not so, my airmen who have been in all year know the format. The forgers were not in any way affiliated with the military. IMHO.

Please be gentle...new to this blog, but VERY happy to have discovered it via FNC.

Just finished Hannity and Colmes a couple minutes ago and noted Alan is especially vitriolic these days. I found it astounding, even so, that Colmes actually suggested to lib journalist, Bernstein (?), that despite the "memos" being likely frauds, they may have actually alluded to real events and/or facts. What a crock! I can see it now; a precedent will be set that will eventually filter down to the criminal courts (wink):

'Yes, the court realizes that the documents in evidence were fraudulent; however, those same documents led to the discovery of factual information that tends to incriminate the defendent and will be admissible for this trial."

Fat chance, because as we all know, the scales of Justice are rarely skewed for the righteous.

Drudge says the story is from the Washington Post. I've got the page open, but I don't see this story. Am I missing something?

#197 reaganite,

Exactly. The mistakes are too obvious. OETR, F.I.S., the dates of his physical deadline, the sign-off line for Killian, the AFM was wrong (160-1), date format, no initials for the typist on the official order documents, ...

#198 Momewrath, you've captured the gist of this blog with your first post. Basically we are a group enraged that in general the left is a pack of lying hyenas willing to say or do anything to maintain their fantastical worldview. They're so self-righteous that the normal strictures of conduct, in their mind, do not even apply to them.

#200 addison
It's all wrong for anybody that has served to have been so stupid.

The Pierce letter says that the TYPEFACE seems to match faces available in the 1970s. Talk about missing the point.

Most of the controversy has not been over the typeface. It has been over inter-letter and inter-word spacing, plus the "th" superscript and the "curly quotes."

I wonder if CBS understands how weak these endorsements really are.

Did anyone else notice that CBS admitted the received the documents from a male?

"CBS News’ reporting determined that the source of the memos had access to the documents he provided and an opportunity to obtain copies of them"

Or is this already well known?

#198 Momewrath

Just finished Hannity and Colmes a couple minutes ago and noted Alan is especially vitriolic these days.

Yeah, I've noticed that too. I suspect he's just being loyal to his party. I always thought of him as a rational person prior to the start of the Iraq War. Ever since then he has seemed more interested in spouting party venom than being objective.

It keeps being reported that this Marian Knox was the secretary to Lt. Col. Jerry Killian.
This may be picking a nit but Killian's son felt strongly enough about it to correct the record tonight on Hannity and Combs, stating that was NOT his dad's personal secretary, which the impression that is being given, but that she the person that typed up everything for all officers.

Someone needs to ask Ms. Knox if she remembers typing the 3 Nov 1970 document addressing subject matter : Promotion of Officer. No one to my knowledge has questioned the authenticity of this document as it was obtained from government files and appears to be typed on a typewriter of that era. If she did all of Lt Colonel Killian's typing she must remember this correspondence because paragraph 3 goes to considerable length in recommending George Bush for promotion to rank of 1st Lieutenant. The entire letter seems to be saying almost the exact opposite of what she is saying to Dan Rather now and the signature matches the one that is being claimed to be the correct (non forged) one.

#201 Righbrain:

Going through a running argument with my left wing-nut brother. The fact that we are arguing is proof positive that a man as intelligent as he is, and as many libs are, can be blessed with a sharp brain and no common sense, or moral compass. I suppose that supports your argument in spades.

Additionally, Mary Mapes, the producer of the report and a well-respected, veteran journalist whose credibility has never been questioned,

...methinks thou doth protest too much...

Your career is over Mary, no one is going to want someone with your shockingly bad judgement on their staff...

In my world, a lie told often enough does not become truth.

#209,

Mary Mapes is the one who left out Killian's widow and son's statements and turned away any character witnesses Killian's son offered because they were "pro-Bush".

#205 Advanced Mammoth:

Isn't that the truth! Colmes can seem rational and reasonable when the stakes are low; but toss in a little cayenne and bam, he's just turned from your best friend to your sworn enemy.

As an aside, I wish Hannity would be a bit more patient with his guests and allow them to finish a comment before interruption...makes all of us good guys look better!

Is this thread dead yet? Is CBS News dead yet?

Are they crazy? WTF kind of dope have they been smoking? Hey Dan - stop inhaling!

Dan/Ken: I know the memos were authentic before they became fakes. This will all go away as soon as I can remember the frequency. Damn migraine. Anybody got Al Gore's number?

Link to the Washington Post story:
CBS Guard Documents Traced to Tex. Kinko's
Records Reportedly Faxed From Abilene

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Hope I'm not reiterating an earlier discussion, but did anyone happen to catch the interview between Linda Vester and Susan Estrich on FCN earlier today? During said discussion Estrich committed a faux pas and said "liberal media" in connection with the memo discussion and CBS's blunder. Freudian?

#187 AdvancedMammoth

#158 Obscure
Ever notice that on television, the CBS memos don't look half as bad as the ones they posted on the internet? What's up with that? They look cleaner and neater.

Those are higher resolution scans of the physical documents. They cant post the high res scans because they'd be too large of a download.

If the documents were faxed to them, then they are low-res docs, and a "hi-res scan" will just produce a grainy cruddy-looking picture that takes up a lot more disk space.

Unless they stuck them in photoshop and cleaned them up... Which would be forgery in and of itself!

I appreciate the comments of reaganite et al wrt to the belief that nobody AF or ANG or otherwise involved with the military would have written the docs because of their non-military form. But remember that the guy under discussion here has had a nervous breakdown between his military experience and now. So it's not impossible!

cathy :-)

#211 Momewrath

As an aside, I wish Hannity would be a bit more patient with his guests and allow them to finish a comment before interruption...makes all of us good guys look better!

I couldn't agree more. I find that really irritating about Hannity. That might be why Fox wont give him a show without a the distinct 'balance' provided by Colmes. But ever since they started coming closer to blows their ratings have risen. Makes me wonder how many of those new viewers are liberals tuning in to be rallied by Colmes?

#217 Advanced Mammoth:

LOL!

If libs are tuning in to FCN to be bolstered by Colmes, that's like feeling happy it's your buddy being eaten by the shark 'cause it ain't you, while you're still floating in the same water...not much consolation!

I think it was zombie the other night who I discussed this with...(Burkett) and somewhere, can't remember where, there is a statement or better described as a rant, stating Bush was involved with the Swift Boat thing and he deserves this---referring the Rather docs.
Anyone recall the site?

To All:

Thanks for the gentle initiation, please forgive the spelling and grammatical errors (can't type for beans) in the future, and I'll be reading your excellent posts and commenting when I have something pertinent to say.

Ciao

#197 reganite

Not so, my airmen who have been in all year know the format. The forgers were not in any way affiliated with the military. IMHO.

This is one thing that has bothered me since Burkett's name came up. It seems unlikely that someone with military experience would have written something that looks like these memos. OTOH Burkett was army guard and not air guard (right? - at least he was in SA with the army from what I have read) and some terminology in the memos sounds more Army than Air Force. Still it would seem more likely to me this was someone without any military background.

All that being said Burkett just smells funny.

#221 Aviator
I'm in a joint service career field. Regardless that we're talking TANG, the military does things by a standard.

Ignore that, The USAF does it all the same. After 23 years, I think I understand the gist.

#222 reganite

Actually, I was agreeing with you. Burkett's name came up a couple of days ago and it didn't seem to fit too well.

As to the authenticity of the documents, Ms. Knox, Killian's secretary, said that she did not type those documents. So why is CBS News still pretending that the documents are authentic? They continue to stonewall.

The documents are forgeries according to the statement made by Killian's secretary. Consider what the consequences would be in a court of law, if somebody introduced forged evidence. How would the judge respond? How would the jury respond?

The New York Times made a big thing over Ms. Knox's opinions on what Killian woulda, coulda, shoulda said. But that is no more than hearsay. Killian is not alive to dispute her statement, or to confirm it. It would have no value in a court of law, and wouldn't even be permitted to be introduced. You don't allow speculation and hearsay.

What Ms. Knox was definitely qualified to testify on was whether she had typed the documents in question. She admitted that she didn't. That leaves CBS News with no plausible theory on the origin of the documents, no theory to compete with the obvious fact that they were generated by a computer using Microsoft Word, as Charles has shown.

I just saw the 60 Minutes interview with Blather and Killian's secretary. I'm furious. One minute of equivocation. One minute of double-talk. Twelve minutes of insubstantial pus infected slime hurled at GWB by that embalmed moonbat, and lapped up like so much honey by that smirking creep Blather. Now I want the congressional investigation. I want to see criminal investigation. I want to see Rather reap what he sows. Revenge is a dish best served cold? I want to see Rather get his in liquid nitrogen.
JWM

One of several of my letters to CBSNews:

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
I used to think National Enquirer was a useless, pointless rag. I now see that I can use it as a comparative measure of truth, honesty, and integrity when compared to CBS News, 60 Minutes, and anything coming from Dan Rather in particular.

A couple of observations re the Knox interview...

I loved the way she pronounced that Gary Killian "had no way of knowing" (or words to that effect) what his father thought of Bush, in such an oracular manner...does she think that none of those guys ever talked to his family about their work? Funny that she'd say that, too, since she implied that Bush's "special status" was a big concern for the officers and pilots.

Why would Killian, who apparently was a very professional and well-respected officer, gossip about Bush (or anyone else in his group) with a civilian employee, and a female besides? What would be the point in sharing his opinions with her?

It occurs to me that this lady may have had something to do with the production of these documents, or with conveying them to CBS. Granted, she'd be more knowledgeable about formatting, terminology, etc. than many people whom we might suspect of the forgery and probably would not have done the typing herself, but it's possible that the content originated with her - especially if she wants to present herself as an "insider" who had a special connection to Killian. That strange remark she made about Gary Killian's having no way to know what his father was thinking keeps rattling around in my brain. It's also as if she wanted everyone to believe that she was closer to Killian than his immediate family.

#225 JWM:

You said:

"...Revenge is a dish best served cold? I want to see Rather get his in liquid nitrogen."

I'll drink to that--in spades!

#227 cybermick

That strange remark she made about Gary Killian's having no way to know what his father was thinking keeps rattling around in my brain. It's also as if she wanted everyone to believe that she was closer to Killian than his immediate family.

As I understand it Gary Killian actually served in the TANG with his father. He related that he and his father talked about Bush more than once and that his father was a "fan" of Bush. To me if they served together it is highly likely the son has a pretty good idea of what his father thought.

She may be playing it up a bit - she did have to wait 86 years for her 15 minutes of fame.

Now one of America's premier journalists is reduced to hiding behind Mrs. Knox's skirts.

This is nonsense:

"In light of the questions about that original 60 MINUTES Wednesday report, CBS News states that it will redouble its efforts to continue reporting aggressively on all aspects of the story, in an effort to resolve those questions. Tonight’s 60 MINUTES interview with Ms. Knox is part of that effort."

Best Overall Blog

Congratulations Charles!

:D

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but look at what the CBS "expert" Matley actually verified according to the letter cited as a reference to their latest statement.

I specifically addressed this question:
On the preponderance of the available handwriting evidence, are all the purported "Jerry B. Killian" signatures by the same person?

Not: Were these memos signed by Jerry B. Killian?

Anyone could have signed all the documents and the signatures would be "from the same person".

Tommy (post #177) makes an excellent point. Do not go after the secretary. That would make everyone look like a "Right Wing Attack Machine".

He brings up another good point, that she will probably let herself be interviewed again. Is it possible to interview her, the experts that have been lined up by the bloggers, and create some sort of news piece? I know that there are several people in the blogosphere with several different backgrounds. Is there anyone out there with skills in documentary/journalism?

While we may not be able to get the story on TV, it could be posted on one of the more popular blogs. Also, with the visual evidence more people would probably be outraged. Lastly, it would give us a chance to retort to CBS in their own medium.

#161 addison

Matley "authenticated" his signature on the purported suicide letter.

WHAT? Are you fucking kidding me??

quark2 is right. I think. That Bush will win. My husband has the electoral vote right now at 320. But there is a caveat there. The debates.

#229 Aviator

A good point - perhaps she couldn't resist padding her status a little to impress nice Mr. Rather and all his fans.

It's probably just something one woman would see about another - that proprietary air when she intimated that she would know what Killian thought better than his son would have done really struck me. What an odd thing to say, regardless of her motive.

#70 TS 9/15/2004 06:05PM PST
" In accordance with longstanding journalistic ethics, CBS News is not prepared to reveal its confidential sources or the method by which 60 MINUTES Wednesday received the documents.

Hello! The source gave you fake documents to influence an election and you told you're viewers the documents were legit, the ethical thing to do is to out the source (and apologize to your viewers)! "

This is the whole story!!

CBS has NO ethical ground to stand on. If CBS News is a NEWS reporting organization, the NEWS to REPORT on is WHO fed them the PHONY documents, WHO and WHAT entity produced them, WHERE and WHEN they were produced, AND WHY!!!

Where is the ethical question in defending the source of forged documents? Rather, Rather and the entire VIACOM organization is still involved in aiding and abetting, not to mention perpetrating, numerous felonies.

# 184 - Purple Fury

I am in complete agreement with you. Although I formed an early and solid opinion that the documents were forged, I have spent more hours than I'd like to admit following this story (to the detriment of my work schedule). Most people are not willing to do this and what is needed is a thorough, factually sound and professionally edited single location on the web where casually internet users can get this information.

Something like what Dave Kopel did to debunk F9/11 - an easy to read summary with a detailed document to back it up. If he were to undertake this I'd certainly be willing to contribute to his expenses - as would many others I'm sure.

Or perhaps a publication like NRO could do it - it would generate a lot of traffic for them and perhaps many new subscriptions too. Admittedly it would be claimed that NRO (for example) has a partisan bias, but the factual arguments are so strong that I don't think this would be a concern.

Re my #184 - that should be "casual internet users" of course.

Re my #238: Now that should be "Re my #237" - not #184 - if I screw it up this time then I give up.

Additionally, Mary Mapes, the producer of the report and a well-respected, veteran journalist whose credibility has never been questioned, has been following this story for more than five years.

That Karl Rove is more than a genius, he's a prophet.

#138
That's kind of like "pregnant but virginal."

But only one enitity in the universe could cause an object or person to be something and not something at the same time.

God.

If the memos are fake but accurate then God had to have created the memos.

In other words this is the Immaculate Deception.

Good one, Les

A little Catholic FYI - the Immaculate Conception refers to the Virgin Mary, who was conceived without the stain of Original Sin in her soul. The term Virgin Birth refers to the birth of Jesus.

'cause we want all Lizards to be well-informed...

Happy New Year to all LGF MOTs!

SO basically, Rather the weasel admits that the documents are forgeries, but only through an 86 YEAR OLD SURROGATE?

While at the same time using her as a conduit to smear Bush's service?

Two messages he is clearly sending:

1. I THINK MY VIEWERS ARE RETARDED

2. VOTE FOR KERRY

#185 & #195,

Yes it is I. Been lurking here for a while. This issue has caused me to post. Rather is clearly an operative of the Kerry Camp. And LGF seems to be the place to watch for the latest flogging of that Lying Liar.