I wonder if the DU is reading...

But...but... it was STAGED!!!
/moonbat

This is good news.

Seem to be a lot of Lib apologies today...............

Nice of them, really. Unions around here wouldn't respond like that. They'd be out slashing tires of non-union contractors at construction sites.

Sorry y'all but I don't know what the incident was. Can someone please enlighten me?

First, the lying, discredited Swiftboat Veterans force Kerry to change his story. Now, big phony Phil Parlock forces the Union to apologize for the phony assault that he staged, even though he had it coming for bringing a Bush-Cheney sign to a Kerry event.

Dan Rather, are you listening?

Good for the Painters Union, bad, very bad!!!, for Dumbos.

I'm impressed...staged or not...

Caught with their pants down? Backpedaling? I'd be more sympathetic if this wasn't SOP in so many cases.

Does " the full extent allowed" include a bare-bottom public spanking?

How about five minutes in a locked room w/ Ahnold?

Or being forced to wash M. Moore's entire body?

That's more like it! Good for him--at least there are still some grown-ups who know that there are more important things than a political rally--like our children's welfare and security.

What a joke...they will discipline to the fullest extend allowed by Union & Govt regulations...in other words, not at all. Great double-speak...sounds good, means nothing.

Apologies for the O.T.

Some were asking of the refutation in the literature of Noam Chomsky's linguistics Theories. Here is a good discussion.

#6 realwest

This is in regards to the union member who tore up the 3 year old girls sign.

see here

And 20 years ago, maybe even 10 the thugs would have gotten away with it. Thank you once more Algore for inventing the internet

Mein gott, this completely fails to address the victim-deserved-it angle vis-a-vis the it's-Israel's-fault paradigm.

Which is to say, Bravo. A second reminder in one day that we hawks who used to be more in line with the Left came from a place that was not the sty much of it is today. Like Zell, we aren't the ones who abandoned our values. If a macho labor union and a socialist newspaper can show this sort of class, maybe there is a chance for that fever-afflicted party many of us are still registered with.

I have to give credit to the union apology.

2nd one today...wow! Maybe they're starting a trend.

CBS should do there's before it goes out of style.

First that Spainish newspaper apologizes and now this. Two good apologies in one day. Maybe CBS will make it three but I'm not holding my breath.

I'll contrast this with Netanyahu's behavior when he came to speak at Penn. There were some Palestinians waving their flags. Netanyahu said to them during their speech that that was one of the privileges of living in a free society - something they would never be able to do in the reverse situation.

Ironically, Netanyahu is the one who is demonized.

Hats off to the IUPAT for stepping up to the plate on this.

As for the DUmmies:

/GAZE

In #18

"there's" should be "their's"

Please excuse the grammar error.

(Wow... apologies are easy!!!)

Kos and DU are getting their asses handed to them particularly badly recently.

Not that I know union policies in general or particular, but I would think disciplinary action could include being kicked out of the union, which might have more than a little long term effect on the assailant's wallet.

Again, classy to offer the apology - but deeds are needed in addition to words.

If there were Union "justice" in this - a number of other members would have a "private discussion" with the gutless wanker who thought it was a good idea to terrorize a 3 year old whose only problem was to hold a sign that he didn't agree with.

As for the DUmmies - they are like the person who did this - beyond contempt.

Good for IUPAT.

Now we will patiently wait for a retraction from Wonkette, the Ass-Queen of Powertown.

#11 PSGInfinity

Or being forced to wash M. Moore's entire body?

Damn.

ROFLMAO and puking at the same time.

#22 MarcoPolo

and I apologize for posting almost the exact thing as you (see #18 and #19). Wow your right it is easy apologize :P

Thanks to all who emailed the IUPAT president. I'm impressed with the quickness of that apology. They must have received a shitstorm of emails.

"..take immediate disciplinary action."

Excuse me? The man assaulted a 3-year-old and destroyed her property. I suggest he give the POS's name to the police.

But that's just me - the sight of that bastard grinning at the fact that he distressed a child makes me want to barf.

Are they saying over at the DU that this was staged, now?

Blah blah blah. Actions, not words. Until we get details of the thug's punishment, this is nothing but a hollow statement. Even then, he needs to face criminal charges.

Closely follow what this talking head is saying

I have personally taken steps to address this issue internally, and will take immediate disciplinary action to the full extent allowed under U.S. Department of Labor regulations and the constitution of the International Union of Painters and Allied Trades.

What this really means, we're gonna buy this clown a new truck and a case of Busch Beer.

At the end of the day though, the dad's still an asshat for taking his 3-year-old to protest at a political rally. Doing so just makes you an attention whore.

MarkD33

I'm trying so hard not to gloat over Wonkette, Atrios, DU, and the other dim bulbs who leaped on the "staged incident" story like a pack of jackals, even though it came out of one of the worst pits of lunacy on the web.

Really trying hard.

Ra^ther should take note, this is what an apology looks like.

if iupat rules anything like nalc (national association of letter carriers)...punnishment could include (but doesn"t usaually) removal from the union....but is most often a money fine which can be as high as 1 years union dues

Two thumbs way up. This was the classy thing to do.

Yea, Im a bit surprised the guy holding the pro-Bush sign did it. He didnt start screaming stuff out or trying to be disruptive so I have nothing against him doing it. It is still dangerous to do considering how things have gone with this election. With other elections you would see someone hold up a sign for a candidate and the opposition would just hold their signs higher. What I find really odd is that no one tried to get between the father and the guy that ripped up the sign.

I am glad the Union took the high ground. The member that tore up the sign and then grinned about it is repulsive.

Well, that was mighty big for Mr. Williams to do. Very good; apology accepted.

However, that IUPAT punk who tore up Sophia's sign and then had the gall to gloat about it should still have his lantern jaw violently popped, pulled, and ripped off of his stupid face and shoved up his fundament sideways, though.

But, hey--that's just my opinion. ;^)

Joel T.

How about disclosing this union turd's name? I think it's only fair, since the press has already disclosed Sophia Parlock's name.

MarkD33, no, at the end of the day the father should expect to go to a public event with his children without any fear of assault.

No matter how many times he's been assailed in the past, it does not excuse the same conduct in the present or future.

Good on IUPAT leadership! Pay attention Rather.

Zombie Killian...want...union...brains....

Ssssshhh. Better to the DU rant on this in isolation for the weekend.

My mother always told me its easy to apologize, its whats doing the right thing to begin with thats hard.

#34 Charles:

I'm trying so hard not to gloat over Wonkette, Atrios, DU, and the other dim bulbs who leaped on the "staged incident" story like a pack of jackals, even though it came out of one of the worst pits of lunacy on the web.

I'm trying so hard not to expect Wonkette, Atrios, DU et all to issue full retractions.

Oh wait. They WON'T issue retractions. It's not hard to not expect it at all!

#32 svegmaw

THANK YOU! That was the first thing I thought of - "gee, I wonder how many pitchers of beer this discipline would involve..." and thought I was being over the top -- THANK YOU again!

# 34 Charles

If anyone has a right to gloat, oh Lizard Master and Emperor of the Odious Neaderthals, it's you!

I can't see any Philadelphia area union ever issuing a decent apology like that. Philadelphia is the city where union thugs beat the crap out of football fans who dared cross the players' picket line during the last football strike and where the unions were almost able to scuttle MTV's Real World Philadelphia show because some nonunion workers did work on the house where the show was being shot.

Dan could learn from this man.

Really trying hard.

Stop trying. Post liks to their websites and cache the webpages so they don't try to stuff, err..."Kos" them down the memory hole.

2 apologies in one day....

Will Rather go for the hat trick?

I have personally taken steps to address this issue internally, and will take immediate disciplinary action to the full extent allowed under U.S. Department of Labor regulations and the constitution of the International Union of Painters and Allied Trades.

Yep, he is going to be the union guy working while the other six get to stand around and watch him.

Post liks to their websites and cache the webpages so they don't try to stuff, err..."Kos" them down the memory hole.

'Liks' should read 'links'.

As I work for a company that employs over 100 union painters, I'll keep my shell-like ear open for any comment, union news, etc. One thing about painters; once they make up their minds that a coworker is a total butthole, said butthole's career at that shop is just about over (unless butthole's dad owns the place.....)

Man, how I long for a good Palestinian car swarm thread.

On another topic, this was referenced in a thread last night, and it's hilarious (on AllahPundit, and yes, I know they're eight months old, but I laughed my ass off):

A bit of levity on a Friday (hattip to Lizard By The Bay):

Dean-o and Clark (Part 1)

Dean-o and Clark (Part 2)

Very OT/

Bizarre:

Teacher Arrested After Bookmark Called Concealed Weapon

TAMPA, Fla. -- A weight may soon be lifted off a Maryland woman charged with carrying a concealed weapon in an airport.

It wasn't a gun or a knife. It was a weighted bookmark.

This reminds me of the time I was searching through my carry-on bag on a trans-Atlantic flight in 2003. I came across my very large Swiss Army Knife that I had accidental left in the bag.

Whoops! I somehow managed to get it through British security. I thought about letting the airline know, but decided against it. I thought I might get into some trouble. It appears I was right...

Lone Platypus:

I'm trying so hard not to expect Wonkette, Atrios, DU et all to issue full retractions.

As for Atrios, he is much too busy thinking up juvenile euphemisms for LGF ("Little Green Snot Bubbles") and comparing Bush to Hitler (Bush rallies are "Triumph of the Will" events) to spare any synaptic activity for fast-breaking news events.

I can't believe that even the most jaded partisan-robot Democrats spare any time for that troubled child, but they don't have as many great things to choose from as we do.

Captain's Quarters has an update regarding the Parlock's:

[Link: www.captainsquartersblog.com...]

Charleston (WV) Daily Mail, August 27, 1996, Page 3C

Phil Parlock's experience was less calm.

The Huntington man said he was knocked to the ground by a Clinton supporter when he tried to display a sign that read "Remember Vince Foster," the deputy White House counsel who committed suicide in a Washington, D.C., park. His death has become the subject of much debate among Clinton opponents.

There's some credibility that this was staged by the Parlock family. The photograph shows the family members and the sign ripper looks like one of the family members. That is really, really sick of the Parlocks.

An excellent apology for the actions of the union members. However, I think some folks here who characterized all union workers as "thugs" should also apologize (and be more careful in future generalizations). Not that I am pro-union, but we should make distinctions between these thugs and the general populace... Then we can all sit down together, hold hands, and sing Kumbayah.

I knew this would all end in tears. I just knew it.

#51 Eagle

2 apologies in one day....

Two? What's the other one (besides IUPAT)?

Having seen union "punishment" myself, he isn't in trouble. Hell he will probably become the next shop steward.

I don't know about there, but here i would think that would be assault. Assaulting a 3 year old girl. Classy.

We shouldn’t be parsing the head of the union for apologizing. Big deal he did what was right, someone call the news. Until that slime of a member is punished, either by the Union or the State, and apologizes himself the Union’s apology is meaningless.

Unfortunately, the only reason the head of local 1234 (cuz thats as high as they can count) apologized is the negative publicity. i am sure the cement headed member of the rank and file is getting nothing but high fives and back slaps for his ape like behavior. As for the Ass Hat brigade (Atrios, DU, Wonkette etc) Would you not think that the ongoing Rather debacle would make them pause before trying to manufacture a BS story like the "staged" incident. You'd thinks so but obviously not.

Who says unions can't be progressive? If it were a hundred or so years ago, they would have throw lit sticks of dynamite at the 3 year old girl.

#60 Ward Cleaver

9/17/2004: El Pais Apologizes for 9/11 Ad

This apology is a joke. If the union really was sorry, they'd "excommunicate" the thug that terrorized that little girl. AND FINE HIM. Has that been done???? Methinks not. Assholes.

#58 Fondu:

What part of "the union has admitted their guy did it" don't you understand?

Good for the painters union. They apologized. Unlike Dan.

Also, I remember seeing an image of a woman getting her hair pulled at a Republican rally. That was wrong too.

Needs to be said.

In the state of California the union would be held 'as' accountable in a civil suit as the idiot that tore the sign out of the little girl's hand. If the union is smart, they would relieve the guy from duty and eventually fire him. It will look good in a civil case.

#59 OfficeRonin

Okay, ya got me....but I can only offer my initial revulsion at the photo as an excuse for my snottiness.

Kumbaya, my lord, Kumbaya....

(Girl from Carolina raises two fingers and promises not to label all union people as thugs. Especially since she is/was a member of San Francisco Musicians Local 6)

#60 Ward Cleaver

I meant the Spanish newspaper here

My husband and I have attended "support the troops" rallys and we have always brought our children (babies, toddlers and middle school aged). I know that those were ugly enough that I am no longer comfortable bringing them. I can't imagine bringing them to a political gathering, sad to say. I really enjoyed showing them the values of the freedoms we enjoy, and even turned it into a bill of rights review (ok, what are we doing now? gathering, speaking, etc). In addition, I had to explain the Rachel Corrie story to my 10 year old, as she saw a huge grapic pic carried by some "peace protester". Nice, huh? So we won't attend any more, we will get a babysitter. Their safety matters more then their seeing wacky folks screaming at them.

I'm not sure. I see the news reports of different episodes of this family during other elections and then see the family picture. Maybe a comparison of the family photo and the recent picture can show if it is actually a family member. Something does not seem right.

#64, #70

Thanks, and thanks to El Pais.

#58 Fondu

I disagree. It shows he is politically active.

Should we assume that anytime a leftist moonbat screams “FOUL!!!” about their handling at a Bush event, who was been protesting before, is staging it?

I think it speaks more about the conduct of the new left and the DNC then it does about the Parlocks.

Gotta give the union credit. They're not trying to pull a CBS/Dan Rather.

#58 Fondu

If they staged it, I still wonder how they got their hands on the t-shirt.

This will all come out in the wash.

#59 OfficeRonin
yeah - I am anti-union, but let's not be elitist as regards union members. Elitism is the obligation of the left. Kumbayah.

Charles-
I cannot stand Wonkette for the smarmy ugly thought processes (or lack thereof) that pass for comment over there. My son, who is otherwise fairly smart, installed her on my Mozilla bar and I just got rid of her once and for all. Thanks for reminding me to do so.

BTW-you haven't forgotten that you are the one who started the whole Rathergate thing-have you?

If anyone else has forgotten, let me remind you-
CHARLES STARTED THE WHOLE RATHERGATE THING WITH HIS EXPERIMENT WHICH OTHERS THEN RECREATED. There was scant acknowledgement of it as well.

Thank you for your attention.
mrsoc

#34 Charles

I'm trying so hard not to gloat over Wonkette, Atrios, DU, and the other dim bulbs who leaped on the "staged incident" story like a pack of jackals, even though it came out of one of the worst pits of lunacy on the web.

Really trying hard.

Excellent use of paraleipsis, Charles.

#71 heidi

Gotta differ with you here. Though my wife and I don't have children yet, we do plan to soon. We have discussed at length about how we would portray the world to them. We are in complete agreement that we will make no attempt to shield them from the unfortunate ugliness that is out there. We do not want them growing up with a displaced or uninformed sense of naiveté. The only way to distinguish good from evil and right from wrong is to be exposed to it from an early age often.

I do have to fault Parlock for taking his three-year-old to an place where he knew that folks would be hostile. There's NO WAY I'd put my kids in that situation. If something happened to one of them, I'd never forgive myself.

man... I am floored and impressed.

I hope DU lunatics realize how much the stock of unions in general just went up in my estimation...

I really wish there was a populist party in this country that represented the dreams of everyday blue collar working americans... a little voice for trade portectionism and workplace saftety and mnimum wges and such -- without also being a shrill and uncomromising voice for killing the unborn and surrendering our sovereignity to a bunch of transnational progressivist degenerates.

I'm pretty libertarian-right, but I think there is room for that voice.

Unfortunately the dem party today does not represent those decent working guys... they have nominated an anti-american billionaire for one thing... and a fricking trial lawyer multi millionaire.

The non-union dem base (hollywood left and ISM types) are VERY uncomfortable with the religious and red-white-and-blue underpinnings of company town union folks...

Course the only growing unions out there are government workers and teachers... and the dems have gone from a solid majority party at the end of WWII to a loose colletion of fringe whack jobs.

anyway good on ya IUPAT.

What are you people thinking??? Its not the union that needs to apologize, IT'S THE THUG THAT TERRORIZED THAT LITTLE GIRL! The Torah teaches that only those that do the actual transgression are required to ask for forgiveness. Thus, Yom Kippur. Let's get back on track, this apology IS MEANINGLESS.

Gee, after woldwide revulsion at the thuggery of that punk, they step up and apologize.

Did Dan Rather report this story?

Without the new MSM, this story would not have been reported.

Expecting retractions from the leftwing trolls? Don't hold your breath.

#83 Andy in Agoura Hills

I agree, he needs to personally apologize as well.

OT

See Ya, Iraq? -- VDH

Yet leaving unilaterally from Iraq would be a tragic mistake. We have already done something like that before — many times. What rippled out afterwards was not pretty. American helicopters flying off the embassy roof in Saigon in 1975 gave us the climate for the Soviets in Afghanistan, Communists in Central America, and embassy hostage-taking in Tehran. Ignoring murders in Lebanon, New York, East Africa, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, or lobbing an occasional cruise missile as tit-for-tat payback when terrorists harvested one too many expendable Americans abroad, ensured us September 11. In our loony world, losing credible deterrence (and we would) is an invitation for disaster — as bin Laden himself illustrated when he logically thought that the toppling of the World Trade Center would be followed by another Black Hawk Down American pullback.

Leaving Afghanistan to its own misery after the Soviet retreat, not going to Baghdad in 1991, turning boats around from Haiti, or quietly ducking out of Mogadishu all were less messy in the short term, but in the long term left even greater chaos. The ultimate wages were the Taliban, 350,000 sorties for over a decade above Iraq, the current mess in the Caribbean, and terrorist havens and worse in Africa. We forget how often in history a perceived stumble or the half-measure only emboldens enemies to try what they otherwise would not.

#83 i disagree... the apology may be meaningless from a theological standppoint, but it is a very good thing when decent people distance themselves from the nasty actions of people with whom they are associated or politically allied.

te IUPAT can't get the dick wad absolution, but he can make sure peopple like me realize that the union does not condone it and is even willing to take the risk of apologizing for it (!?) which in this day and age is a significant political risk... they ought to be praised for taking a risk in the name of civility...

John Kerry's latest stump speech:

[The president] did not tell you that with each passing day, we're seeing more chaos, more violence, more indiscriminate killings. He did not tell you that with each passing week, our enemies are getting bolder — that Pentagon officials report that entire regions of Iraq are now in the hands of terrorists and extremists. He did not tell you that with each passing month, stability and security seem farther and farther away... You deserve a president who will not play politics with national security, who will not ignore his own intelligence, while living in a fantasy world of spin, and who will give the American people the truth about the challenge our brave men and women face on the front lines.

(Courtesy of Andrew Sullivan, a conservative who hasn't sold his soul to the Republican Party)

The truth hurts, doesn't it LGF'ers? And no amount of Dan Rather's boobery or smears from the Swift Boat shills can hide this plain fact.

"I have personally taken steps to address this issue internally, and will take immediate disciplinary action to the full extent allowed under U.S. Department of Labor regulations and the constitution of the International Union of Painters and Allied Trades."

Yeah that's all well and good, but what exactly is the 'full extent?" They going to confiscate his union hat for a week? The union recognized this is a PR nightmare for them, pure and simple. I'd be amazed if they take any substansive action. I wouldn't doubt the Kerry team was on the horn raising hell this morning as well. Undecided voters dislike seeing Union thugs smacking toddlers around. As if American Unions could do anything to make themselves less popular and less effective in American politics- just ask Democratic Presidential nominee Gephardt.

#88 Gordon

The truth hurts, doesn't it LGF'ers?

I guess, but what does "the truth" have to do with that bit of Kerry blather you posted?

Gordo, if you were FDR you would have surrendered during the Battle of the Bulge. Idiot.

#80 beblebrox -

I agree, and I felt the same way. But it is different when you actually thing they might get hurt. Showing them is crucial, letting them display patriotism also manditory, but allowing some dork to push them around, no. Plus, I am not the kind of person who would not go quietly and let someone shove them around, and my retaliation is not something I would want them to see either. I showed them what this is like, how important it is. I now also show them that I adore them, and they are the lights in our lives. Inasmuch, they mean enough not to let them be physically hurt whenever possible. You will see when you have your baby at one, it's scary. And it was supposed to be a fun family/America outing!!

Again, we will still go. Just sans wee ones.

#88 Nodrog

We need to take the gloves off and rattle some more teacups.

Great. Point taken. But let's not bother asking the Fwench for help.

I officially eay crow.

is it a wonder why the leaders of these trade unions,not the core employee supports kerry, the more terror attacks on america, the bigger the contract to rebuild from the fed gov

[Link: michellemalkin.com...]

Michelle on LLL theory of attack on 3-year old. It's a small town, so a set-up would not work (take a look).

Wow, Gordo looks like he's finally losing it?

By the way, how much is a soul worth nowadays? I could use a couple of bucks. RNC, are you interested?

I thought [#88] was banned?

Gordon,

John Kerry is going to lose this election. Andrew Sullivan can not prevent that from happeniing.

In five years people will not remember the Sep 04 narrative about Iraq being a quagmire. Indeed in five years guys like Kerry who are making these speeches will be taking credit for bring hope to the middle east...
just like they do now when they talk about the fall of Soviet Communism. Today Iraw is a quagmire... tomorrow tey will have been standing shoulder to shoulder wiith the forces of freedom fighting against a repressive regime...

regards,

vtrtl

Gee. You mean this incident really happened? I thought the guy who tore up that sign was Karl Rove in a Bruce Willis mask, Jiminy Glick fat suit and "forged" Union t-shirt.

I figured it was Rove, who had decided to stop at the airport in West Virgina to stage this dirty trick on his way back from Abeliene, TX, where he was seen sneaking into the Kinko's at night to fax some more fake Bush TNG docs to Dan Rather.

/tin-foil hat off.

#83
Doesn't the Torah also teach that forgiveness can only rightfully given by the one who was wronged?

#80 beblebrox
We have discussed at length about how we would portray the world to them. We are in complete agreement that we will make no attempt to shield them from the unfortunate ugliness that is out there."

Friend-
I have 37 years experience in the mommy business. If I had five cents for every case where "We discussed this before we had the baby and we decided..." that got turned completely around and came out the other end as "You toucha my baby you die." I would be a very rich woman.
When you have the kid-and have had it for say-6 months-let me know how you feel. You won't know anything about what sort of a parent you will be until you are one. Trust me on this-I know.

NYT headline - " Photo authentic, but inaccurate".

Mmm, I see a trend here...

I'm not 100% convinced that the union apology completely confirms that the sign-ripper was in fact in the union. Could be that the union president sitting in his office in another city got 100 emails in an hour, all saying that a union guy had ripped up a sign, and the president decided to sent out an apology, assuming the claims in the emails were true. There's no evidence that he confirmed the sign-ripper was a union member, or that he even knows who the sign-ripper was. Maybe by tomorrow the union president will find out that the sign-ripper wasn't one of their guys.

I'm not saying this is likely -- just speculating. And to say that an apology by a third party is not proof of guilt.

Obviously Parlock is an enthuiastic provocateur who loves going to Dem rallies with Bush signs. And that, intended or not, he frequently gets attacked at them. And yet he keeps going back for more. He might be a little nutty, but that doesn't mean the event is staged. He'd have had to stage the same event several times over several elections -- highly unlikely.

I don't approve of an adult taking a small child to a political rally. It smacks of something sinister.

From Gordo's quote from JFnK via Andrew Sullivan, a conservative willing to sell out everything else at the altar of gay marriage:

that Pentagon officials report that entire regions of Iraq are now in the hands of terrorists and extremists. He did not tell you that with each passing month, stability and security seem farther and farther away... You deserve a president who will not play politics with national security, who will not ignore his own intelligence, while living in a fantasy world of spin, and who will give the American people the truth about the challenge our brave men and women face on the front lines.

Oh, like giving a fixed timetable to withdraw from Iraq with tails between legs will make Iraq safer? Like John Kerry doesn't play politics with national security?

What do you call voting for the resolution authorizing force, then (in heat of battle against Dean, trying to look sufficiently lefty to the loonies) voting against funding troops already there, and then once he has the nomination sewed up, trying to appeal to the middle, saying he would have done what Bush did, that isn't playing politics.

The truth hurts, doesn't it, Gordo.

#88 Nodrog

Andrew Sullivan is hardly a reliable source. He's sold his soul for gay marriage.

As for sKerry, he's livin' in a dream world if he thinks the French will help him out. They'll tell him to piss off just like they have Bush.

I'm waiting to see how the whole Oil for Food scandal shakes out. I think it will show more collaboration between Saddam and al Qaeda, the UN, and some of our so-called "allies".

Andrew Sullivan, a conservative? 1.) He wants a massive increase in the gas tax (and he doesn't drive.) 2.) He wants the courts to judicially impose same-sex marriage (and other social policies he favors) on the country, Constitution and public will be damned! 3.) Thinks the Roman Catholic Church should abandon its traditional teachings and conform itself to conventional mores of political correctness. 4.) Never met a Moby he didn't feature prominently on his weblog.

Andrew Sullivan is not now, and never was, a conservative.

I have personally taken steps to address this issue internally, and will take immediate disciplinary action to the full extent allowed under U.S. Department of Labor regulations and the constitution of the International Union of Painters and Allied Trades.

Two comments. (1) I’m glad they had the intelligence to apologize. I’m surprised, but I’m glad. Good damage control. Oh yea, and it was the right thing to do. However (2) what does the above quote mean? I know what it doesn’t mean. It doesn’t mean the guy will be fired, because it is almost impossible to get fired if you’re in a union (at least from what I’ve seen). But we all knew that, right?

I tried to explain to a friend (without getting political about the topic) why unions are problematic for the simple fact that (amongst other things) they make it hard to terminate people which work for you. I explained to this person a story of how (earlier that week) I terminated the employment of someone that worked for me who was “not a good fit for my company” (i.e., the person I terminated was lazy, dishonest, unreliable, and worst of all, misrepresented their abilities).

My friend (a school teacher [under-paid and over-worked, even I’ll admit that]) told me, “You just can’t fire people like that.” And she continued, “People have a right to work, and you can’t just fire them because they aren’t working out. You should have sent her to training classes that would help her do her job better.” Then went on to say how important tenure was.

What? No one has a right to work. My company has as much right to let me go as I have to let them go (i.e., resign). Plain and simple: I do not have a right to work. I’ve earned that privilege by becoming an expert in my field and then educating potential employers as to what I can offer them. If I can offer them something (and they can offer me something in return [money, ability to learn new things, benefits, an enjoyable work environment]) then we have a deal. From there on out, I need to show them I’m worth keeping and they need to show me that their company is worth staying at. It goes both ways. Anyone that thinks otherwise is (IMHO) wrong. This applies to high powered executives as well as cashier at the local grocery store.

So back to the topic at hand, what does U.S. Department of Labor regulations and the constitution of the International Union of Painters and Allied Trades have to do with it? Does terminating an employee that brings shame to your company (or related entity) violate U.S. Department of Labor regulations? What if I went on TV and said horrible things about my company? Do they have a right to terminate me? (They should have that right.)

As for the constitution of the International Union of Painters and Allied Trades, what is this? Can someone post this so called constitution? The only Constitution that is important is the United States Constitution.

# 102 - mrsoc

Sing it, sister. My point exactly - you toucha my babies, you die.

:)

Gordon:

And Kerry's plan is.........

The new Kerry Add regarding Haliburton and the U.S. only taking bids from Haliburton. It is my understanding that Haliburton, Brown and Root are the only U.S. companies that can take on and offer the specialized services needed for the task of IRaq buidling. Haliburton uses Brown and Root and the only other companies able to take this on are French and German.

Is this True?

#88: Yeah, our enemies are getting bolder. That explains why there hasn't been a successful attack on U.S. soil since 9/11. Sheesh.

#101
Correct. But first it has to be offered.

People, join in on fighting against stifling Free Speech in the UK. This "Law against inciting religious hatred" will be used by Muslims to silence Freedom of Speech.

It's just perty five dollar words until the creep is identified, his punishment is published and verified by reliable sources.

And Kerry's plan is.........

He'll send the Magic Hat on a secret mission to Cambodia and the French and Germans will somehow magically appear in Iraq and all the insurgents will lay down their arms and dance around the maypole singing "Kum Ba Yah."

OT

Germans seek to ban Islamic conference.

#113

It amazes me how concerned kerry is about evil corporations when his cousin was the vp of a company that got a very sweet deal with Vietnam after Kerry pushed to have relations with Vietnam normalized.

Gordon:

The truth hurts, doesn't it LGF'ers?

If that KERRY ROX! tattoo on your ass still smarts, why don't you spare us your bitching and just type standing up?

OT Just got an email quoting Neal Bortz

THIS IS WHY THEY HATE FOX NEWS CHANNEL.
Brit Hume had a bit on his "Special Report" last night about a new television ad from Moveon.org, the 527 group financed by that shadowy Hungarian-born international financier who, by the way, hates George Bush. The television ad shows a picture of an AK47 automatic rifle. The ad says "This .. can fire up to 300 rounds a minute. ... In the hands of a terrorist it could kill hundreds ... But on September 13th George Bush will [have] let the assault weapons ban expire." Hume then points out that this particular gun has been banned in the U.S. since the Firearms Act was passed in 1934. They are banned today. You can't own one without a special and very hard-to-get permit from the feds. So, Moveon.org lied. But that's not the news here. We already know that Moveon.org lies in their PAC ads. The news here is that you heard about this from Fox News Channel. You can bet your right to Social Security payments (might as well bet something of no real value) that you would never see The New York Times, the Boston Globe, CBS, NBC, ABC or CNN ever report this particular story. Fox News did, and that's why liberals hate Fox News so much. Just reporting that Moveon.org has an adverse relationship with the truth is proof of bias.

#98 SP

I thought [#88] was banned?

Nah. We're still holding out hope.

HEY GORDON!!!
Just trying to help increase your understanding.
:-)

Sen. John Kerry’s new health care plan would virtually destroy the individual and small-group health insurance markets and most Americans would not be able to remain in the private health plan they have today, according to a study published today by the National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA).

Instead, millions of middle-income families will enroll in Medicaid and millions more will get insurance through a system of managed competition similar to what Hillary Clinton proposed more than a decade ago, the study concludes.

Sen. Kerry’s goal is to insure two-thirds of the estimated 44 million uninsured Americans, but the cost, according to the NCPA study, would exceed $1 trillion over 10 years.
And more than half the money would subsidize moving people who already have private insurance to public programs by expanding Medicaid and State Children’s Health Insurance Programs for the poor.
Employers will receive similar subsidies even if they fail to insure a single additional employee.
“The bottom line is that it’s entirely possible to spend $1 trillion and not reduce the number of uninsured,” says NCPA President John Goodman, adding that the quality of care would suffer under the Kerry proposal:.....

KERRY PLAN WOULD RADICALLY CHANGE HEALTH CARE

#88 Gordon

1029 American troops killed in Iraq

1029 / 250,000 American troops sent to Iraq =

0.004116% fatalities

0.004116% fatalities = quagmire?

I think you are right about this not being staged. The family is politically active and there are no reports of the family doing anything in the past other than holding up a sign. I was also thinking about the union shirt and the quick reaction from the union. It would not make sense if it was staged. The union would of recognized if this guy was not really a member of theirs.

Yea, I had some doubts. We've had some really screwy stuff happen during this election, and these types of incidents are probably happening in a number of places. This one was caught on film. Call it for what it is and not fall into the "conspiracy theory" stuff. It is unappropriate behavior and is not acceptable no matter which political party you affiliate with.

I told you before, Gordon is just a program:

Gratuitously
Obnoxious and
Repetitive
Digital
Online
Nuisance

More here

I'm I the only one who thinks it is sad that we have to talk about a Dem rally as an unsafe place to take a 3 year old girl, much like we would talk about a biker bar? I don’t really think the dad is in the wrong, I mean it is kinda like saying a girl in a short skirt deserved to get raped. So what she held up a pro Bush sign? She is 3! Under no circumstance should a three year old be assaulted.
I though the left was open minded and tolerant people.

Smart and to the point, kudos to the Painters Union.

So why is C-BS still giving preferential treatment to Dan Rather.

Looks like it's a day for apologies, corrections and clarifications.

Findlaw responded to my email about their posting the Killian memos without any mention of Ra^therGate.

They wrote that they got those memos from the White House, through CBS news. And now they have added this disclaimer:

Please note: the authenticity of the following four (4) documents contained in this table is currently in dispute. They were originally obtained by CBS News and released to FindLaw by the White House on September 8, 2004. FindLaw makes no representations regarding whether these documents are authentic or inauthentic but leaves it to our users to decide.

[Link: news.findlaw.com...]

as a member of the federal govt I can firmly state that the socialization of medicine in this country would be a disaster and is simply aplay for power by those that push for it.

I'm sure Kerry would have prefered that Halliburton's main competitor in oil field service and construction, the Paris based ScumBurger Schlumberger (pronounced- slumber-j) be given the job. It would have been far more nuanced.

79 Beagle

Phewww, for a moment I thought maybe Charles had an affliction....;).

On a more serious note, the idiot or idiots that went after this darling little person, were but a mere few steps away (read mindset) from the animals that perpetrated the Beslan atrocity.

To those that think thusly

Wonkette, Atrios, DU, and the other dim bulbs who leaped on the "staged incident"

YOU are but a few of those same steps away.

#113 zturlte

Good point. Also, if I recall correctly, didn't Clinton award Halliburton a no-bid contract for Kosovo. (Of course, if I don't recall correctly, I would appreciate someone giving me the correct information, lest I use this information later to the next Moonbat who yells "Halliburton" and look like a fool afterwards).

OT - I have two questions:

1. in one of the threads in recent days, it was mentioned that littlegreenfootballs won the award as best blog in the bogosphere (unfortunately I was in the middle of composing one of my infamously insightful, spot-on and yet still witty comments and forgot to get back to that comment) - can anyone give me a link?

2. Charles - how do you manage to keep your head on straight in the face of all these (extremely well deserved) compliments? I mean, I went to a St. Patrick's Day parade three years ago (I'm Scots, but Irish and Scots are both Celts, both wear kilts, love bagpipes and know how to drink so I figured what the hey) and wore my full regalia, including Kilt. One women whistled at me and said "nice legs, Scotty" and I lived on that one compliment for almost an entire week!

# 132 torog

I remember when Billary was pushing for the socialized medicine program.
A friend of mine's mother who is from Scotland just about went nuts when she heard about it. She told us all sorts of horror stories about not being able to get a doctor etc.

It also amazes me that Edwards is on the platform talking about health care when he is one of the people that have directly caused health care cost to rise.

Didn't something like 17,000 US troops die in the Battle of the Bulge?

Roosevelt Lied/People Died!

OT - Krauthammer on Kerry

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

He now calls Iraq "the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time." But, of course, he voted to authorize the war. And shortly after the fall of Baghdad he emphatically repeated his approval of the war: "It was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein. And when the president made the decision, I supported him."

When Don Imus asked him this week, "Do you think there are any circumstances we should have gone to war in Iraq, any?" Kerry responded: "Not under the current circumstances, no. There are none that I see. I voted based on weapons of mass destruction. The president distorted that." But just last month he said that even if he had known then what he knows now, he would have voted for the war resolution.

Is Iraq part of the war on terrorism or a cynical distraction from it? "And everything [Bush] did in Iraq, he's going to try to persuade people it has to do with terror, even though everybody here knows that it has nothing whatsoever to do with al Qaeda and everything to do with an agenda that they had preset, determined."

That was April 2004. Of course, shortly after Sept. 11, Kerry was saying the opposite. "I think we clearly have to keep the pressure on terrorism globally," he said in December 2001. "This doesn't end with Afghanistan by any imagination. . . . Terrorism is a global menace. It's a scourge. And it is absolutely vital that we continue [with], for instance, Saddam Hussein."

So then Hussein was part of the war on terrorism -- a "for instance" in fighting "terrorism globally." Kerry temporarily returned to that position last week when he marked the 1,000th American death in Iraq by saying the troops have "given their lives on behalf of their country, on behalf of freedom, in the war on terror."

Hello all. Back from lunch.

To pick up on an earlier theme, I think it's sad that the issues aren't being discussed. What does some random union goon have to do with where we're going as a country? We all know there are meatheads of every political stripe.

Is this site's reluctance to delve into real issues in favor of flogging this tabloid mud indicative of a void at the heart of the Republican campaign? I mean, Kos isn't exactly the world's greatest site, but geez -- at least they're talking policy!

realwest,

You're in good form today. I started coming here while you were out recovering. I trust you're doing OK now?

Guess what folks, Drudge is reporting that the CBS 'source" compared president Bush to Hitler. Wonder if joined moveon.org.

Disgusting CBS Source "BUSH = HITLER"!!!

One of john kerry's earlier "stump speeches"

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

# 140 Big

Lookie here also.

Eat that, DU!

#113 zturlte

Don't know about that, but I know that during the Clinton administration, Al Gore held Halliburton up as a model contractor, and used them as a positive example in his "Reinventing Government" initiative.

Halliburton: The Bush/Iraq Scandal that Wasn’t

An excerpt:

In 1997, when LOGCAP was again put up for bid, Halliburton/Brown & Root lost the competition to another contractor, Dyncorp. But the Clinton Defense Department, rather than switch from Halliburton to Dyncorp, elected to award a separate, sole-source contract to Halliburton/Brown & Root to continue its work in the Balkans. According to a later GAO study, the Army made the choice because 1) Brown & Root had already acquired extensive knowledge of how to work in the area; 2) the company "had demonstrated the ability to support the operation"; and 3) changing contractors would have been costly. The Army's sole-source Bosnia contract with Brown & Root lasted until 1999. At that time, the Clinton Defense Department conducted full-scale competitive bidding for a new contract. The winner was . . . Halliburton/Brown & Root. The company continued its work in Bosnia uninterrupted.

That work received favorable notices throughout the Clinton administration. For example, Vice President Al Gore's National Performance Review mentioned Halliburton's performance in its Report on Reinventing the Department of Defense, issued in September 1996. In a section titled "Outsourcing of Logistics Allows Combat Troops to Stick to Basics," Gore's reinventing-government team favorably mentioned LOGCAP, the cost-plus-award system, and Brown & Root, which the report said provided "basic life support services — food, water, sanitation, shelter, and laundry; and the full realm of logistics services — transportation, electrical, hazardous materials collection and disposal, fuel delivery, airfield and seaport operations, and road maintenance."

#141

"Is this site's reluctance to delve into real issues in favor of flogging this tabloid mud indicative of a void at the heart of the Republican campaign? I mean, Kos isn't exactly the world's greatest site, but geez -- at least they're talking policy!"

"Will Cheney eat a baby?" is "talking policy?"

137--

I find it alarming that so many people see nationalized healthcare for all as a bad thing. Yes, nations like Canada and Scotland have had their share of problems with waiting lists and doctor shortages. But ask any of the 50 million uninsured Americans what they'd rather have -- a wait for their surgery, or no surgery at all.

It speaks to the need for a country to at least try to make it an even playing field for all such that opportunity and freedom are equal...isn't that what we're supposed to be all about?

re socialized medicine - Who was it that said (probably paraphrasing), "You'd be surprised how expensive free health care can be."

talking policy at Kos.... heh.

void at the heart of the republican campaign... heh heh...

remotedevice: John Kerry is going to lose this election.

In the grand sceme the little girl union story is minor, but people get emotional...

funy thing about you lefties... everyone has to be serious and talking policy all the time... serious like the posters at Kos...

one of the reasons the political left is losing ground so rapidly is that you are always telling us we have to sit in the dark and take our medicine.

148--

Go there now. Their first five stories are:

-Poll results from MA
-Discussion of lost jobs in Ohio/Norquist
-Former NSA Chief Odom's opinion on Iraq
-A chart depicting US service members wounded in Iraq
-Another story about the missing WMDs

The first five stories here as of 2:15 EST are:

-CBS documents
-Union worker assaults 3 year old
-CBS documents part 2
-Spanish newspaper 9/11 ad
-CBS documents (again)

So...who's talking policy, and who's throwing mud because they can't?

#141

I am talking policy:

Kerry want's socialized health care; experince both with other countries and my own experience in working in Govt tells me that socialized medicine just does not work.

I find Edwards disingenous in his concern over health care cost as his actions as an lawyer helped drive cost up.

I don't like GWB's policy towards illegal immigrants.

The economy is an issue that goes either way depending on where you live/what job sector you work in.

Kerry has shown and stated that he feels we should take action only with the approval of the U.N. I think our right as a nation to take action in our defense should not be delegated to a body of people that includes the representatives of non-democratic societies.

just a short list.

remotedevice,

I think we're still waiting for JK'inK to tell us about his plans for the next four years. Instead he tells about his war years (yawn) and how he disagrees with W. Of course he disagrees or he wouldn't be running for office. BTW... We're still waiting.

(crickets)

#149--

You imply there are 50 million that get no healthcare whatsoever. Actually, they go to the hospital and get care, even surgery. The hospitals eat the cost. That's the system now.

If Canada's system is so great, why are hospitals in America near the border crowded with Canadian patients?

# 149 remotedevice

It speaks to the need for a country to at least try to make it an even playing field for all such that opportunity and freedom are equal...isn't that what we're supposed to be all about?

What about the ability to buy Hummers ? I can't afford one. Shouldn't the Government take maney from you and give it to me so I can get one ?

Problem is socialism does not work, never has, never will. And a big part part of what makes surgeries and such so expensive are frivilous lawsuits. ( John Edwards ring a bell ? )

Here is the problem with socialized medicine.

Here I am, I avoid fast food, maintain an active lifestyle, and am in good health. My out-of-pocket medical costs are minimal, mainly because I take care of myself, and I don't run to the emergency room every time I have a cold or a hangnail.

Under socialized health care, my taxes would be jacked up to cover the obesity of people who eat like Michael Moore, the multiple health problems of people who take drugs like Courtney Love, and the emergency care and rehabilitative therapy of people who drive like Gary Busey, not to mention, hypochondriacs who run to the emergency room every time they get a sniffle.

Basically, people who make good choices get screwed and people who make bad choices have their destructive lifestyles subsidized.

Protest Warriors attacked in NYC, little girls' signs vandalized by pro-Kerry union thugs, yard signs stolen, etc. ad nauseum...it seems all we need to do, my fellow Republicans, is show up at pro-Kerry events with a sign or two, and let the natural animosity of the Looney Left take its course. Just make sure there's a camera there, and be prepared to defend yourself.

and on nationalized health care.

1) the fundamental argument underneath the statement "health care is a basic human right" is:

my needs give me a legitimate claim to your property.

I reject that argument.

2) THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE US WHO HAVE NO ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE IS PRECISELY ZERO !!!!!!!!!!
IT IS ILLEGAL TO DENY TREATMENT TO ANY ERGENT PATIENT PRESENTING AT ANY TREATMENT FACILITY.

Not everyone gets to have butt implants from the finest plastic surgeons in Miami for free....

#149 remotedevice
I pay for my health insurance. Usually, given my deductible, I also pay for my health care.
I work for it and I insure my family and employees, therefore I am not interested in waiting for anything so that someone who won't work can have exactly the same coverage I do.

Socialist, are you?

#152:

Thanks, I'll pass. And I see no reason why this site has to be anything like DailyKos; isn't diversity supposed to be good in lefty circles?

#88 nodroG

Quoting Sullivan - what a joke.

You want to understand what's happening in Iraq - beyond the BDS - read Belmont Club who has a great analysis in several parts - as well as some facts for Sullivan (needed since Andrew works on emotion more than not) as well as Allah's site for links to Iraqi blogs.

Of course, these will refute your mind view and require reasoning on your part - something I doubt your BDS will permit.

I think remotedevice is Gordon's mom and Gordon is the device.

hi Sloan ( that's my last name )

Ed Moran:

It was more, over 19,000.

U.S. Battle of the Bulge Battle Deaths averaged 600 to 700 a day for over 4 weeks, the Germans suffered more.

My Uncle's whole Company of Combat Engineers was entirely wiped out with no survivors.

The 82nd Airborne made famous Bastogne and St. Vith, but the worst was in the Hurtgen Forest.

"For us the Hurtgen was one of the most costly, most unproductive, and most ill-advised battles that our army has ever fought." --Gen. James Gavin, Commander, 82nd Airborne Division, 1944-1945

"The German Command could not understand the reason for the strong American attacks in the Hurtgen Forest...the fighting in the wooded area denied the American troops the advantages offered them by their air and armored forces, the superiority of which had been decisive in all the battles waged before." -- Generalmajor von Gersdorff, Chief of Staff, German 7th Army, 1944-1945

"The forest up there was a helluva eerie place to fight...Show me a man who went through the battle...and who says he never had a feeling of fear, and I'll show you a liar. You can't get all of the dead because you can't find them, and they stay there to remind the guys advancing as to what might hit them. You can't get protection. You can't see...Artillery slashes the trees like a scythe. Everything is tangled. You can scarcely walk. Everybody is cold and wet, and the mixture of cold rain and sleet keeps falling. Then they jump off again, and soon there is only a handful of old men left." --T.Sgt. George Morgan, 1st Battalion, 22d Infantry

"I realized after the first week that the only reason I was still alive had more to do with my T/5 stripes than anything else. Were it not for those, I would have quickly been placed as a replacement in one of the rifle companies, and undoubtedly killed or wounded within days. As it was, I wasn't expendable yet. We lost so many good men." --T/5 Tony Brichta, 728th Ordnance, 28th Division

Andrew Sullivan is not now, and never was, a conservative.

Andy Sullivan is less conservative or liberal per se as he is a flaming narcissist. As long as most gays were liberal Sully was only too happy to bask in the glory of his precious renegade commentary.

Everyone look at me and my Daily Dish! Listen to me because I'm a gay man saying conservative things! Tony Blair is a most prescient statesman -- and by the way I'm gay!

Hell, everybody listen to ME -- I'm a Jewish guy with green eyes who says conservative things!

Now that Bush has come out against gay marriage Sully is willing to throw away any value he ever stood for in favor of the flip-flopper. He was for the war -- now against. Pro-Bush -- now against.

Personally, I'm indifferent to gay marriage. Civil unions are fine, I don't think it will destroy anybody's marriage. Whatever.

Well done apology. The guy stepped up.

Anybody know if Dan Rather read this?

Repeal Bacon-Davis and all other pro-union legislation. Unions are economic parasites. Their only purpose is to drive up the cost of doing business, rape non-union workers and create unemployment. Oh yes, for leadership positions they also provide employment for gangsters.

#149 remotedevice

But ask any of the 50 million uninsured Americans what they'd rather have

As one of the "40" million uninsured, and from the bottom of my heart, fuck off.

I've seen the British Health Care System (NHS) and worked for them. I won't no part of that third world system, thanks.

#38 Fondu,

I've written two replies to you, and deleted them because they were too violent (think about that Guys and Dolls :-). This was unacceptable behavior.

Period.

So Democrats should be expected to bully little girls? And we should trust that kind of party, why?

Y'all want to step up, fine, we can do this thing, but I think you might want to reconsider. Sounds like the Union dude agrees with me. This was unacceptable behavior. Time for you all to stand down, at least a bit. Before people start dying.

remotedevice,

BTW, I'm in healthcare. Be very careful about what you wish for, and I wouldn't wish state run healthcare on anyone.

#149

It speaks to the need for a country to at least try to make it an even playing field for all such that opportunity and freedom are equal...isn't that what we're supposed to be all about?

C'mon now, "equality of opportunity" so JFK(married into huge money), Teraza (grew up with a silver spoon) and all these other folks want to make sure I can get healthcare. hell, the aforementioned and the rest of congress could probably pay the premiums on real health insurance for the whole damn country out of pocket if they are so concerned about me.

Now, suppose my taxes were jacked up by $100 per week to cover the cost of Kerry's Health Quagmire. That's $5,200 a year I can no longer put back into the economy by buying clothes for my kids, or computers, or computer games, or any number of ways I would rather spend it.It means I can't spend it on consumer goods, and hence the people that make or sell those consumer goods lose their jobs.

No, instead it pays for Courtney Love to dry out, or it pays for reconstructive surgery for some urban gang-banger who got plugged while robbing a 7-11. Or, more precisely, it pays for the salary, desk and office of a bureaucrat at the National Health Authority, who can never be fired, and can sit on her butt all day filing her nails, and only has to work one day every four years when she shows up at the polls to dutifully vote Democrat.

I sense a remote controlled thread hijacking.

#80 beblebrox

We are in complete agreement that we will make no attempt to shield them from the unfortunate ugliness that is out there. We do not want them growing up with a displaced or uninformed sense of naiveté. The only way to distinguish good from evil and right from wrong is to be exposed to it from an early age often.

Just remember that your desire to 'expose" your kid early and often could land him/her on a shrink's couch for life. I encourage some judgement.
Happy parenting when the time comes.

somewhere along the line andrew lost sight of the fact that he will be the first one up against the wall if the islamists win this war. and then they will push it over on him.

republican party - has a significant population who want to define marriage as a hetero thing.

believes the most important issue is fighting islam.

democratic party - believes the most important issue is taking money away from some people and using the money to give things like health care to other people.

has a significant population who want to let the influence militant islamism expand.

145 Praxeus

From your link, but kind of ot: DC schools are spending $13K per PUPIL? What are they doing, paying combat bonuses to teachers and administrators? Gold plating the latrines in the teachers' lounge? SHEESH.

That's only slightly less than I'm currently paying in tuition per year for TWO state university students who live at home and commute. And it's nearly three times what I pay per year for my youngest to attend a private high school. Granted, this high school is somewhat a bargain because it's on a university model which is highly efficient because the facilities and staff can be used for twice as many students. (They attend class MWF or T-Th like in college, and do their reading and seatwork at home under parental supervision). But STILL ... $13K per year per kid?

#166 Globular Cluster

You forgot - the Sullivan whine for money -

---I'm going on my annual vacation for the month of August, but the bills for my bandwidth are really starting to add up - last year I collected over $125K in my drive for funds - I need more this year.....for bandwidth, yeah, that's the ticket....bandwidth. ..... give generously----

Nothing like a 1 trick phony......

Kudos to The International Union of Painters and Allied Trades for having the decency to do exactly what CBS has failed to do regarding “Memogate/Rathergate”: Admit that wrong has been done, take responsibility for that wrong, and take steps to ameliorate it

"I have personally taken steps to address this issue internally, and will take immediate disciplinary action to the full extent allowed under U.S. Department of Labor regulations and the constitution of the International Union of Painters and Allied Trades"

As long as that doesn't mean this guy will be getting a raise (you can never tell with unions), I'm glad to hear that.

re. socialized health care.

If you're just plain against it because of the taxation argument, then there's no point in belabouring the issue. The reality, of course, is that the dividends paid to the society as a whole by providing free health care far outweigh the costs -- look at productivity numbers, infrastructure payments, etc. If you examine the per capita spending via taxation on health care, the United States spends much more than Canada or other socialized health care nations due to the inevitable inflation created by a free-market health system.

Some of you make the argument that it's up to the individual to prevent themselves from getting sick, and the rest of us shouldn't have to bear the costs of lazy people who need health care. You've obviously never had a family member come down with cancer and have to deal with leaving a mountain of debt to their loved ones.

Others say that having the right to health care is like having the right to own a Hummer. Do you honestly conceive of that as an accurate parallel? What else is the state for but to ensure the basic needs of its citizens? A Hummer is obviously not a basic need. Remember the "pursuit of happiness" thing? You don't need a Hummer for that. But you do need to be able to breathe, for example.

#124. Good quote.

MSM's bias is not always in fraudulent reporting like memo-gate, but much of it is just on what stories they cover. Many things are sweep under the rug, while others are given huge exposure. Think about the black church burning epidemic that turned out be greatly exagerated, while ignoring other stories and issues like those that pop up on LGF.

Same with FOX but in reverse. It's because they cover/expose things that the rest of MSM ignores is what drives the left crazy. They don't want to hear the above item. Also Fox analysis shows bring on people from both sides and let's them talk live and unedited. How come Dan Rather didn't bring on Killians kids to counter the secretary? Fair and balanced means showing both sides and letting the viewer decide.

# 177 Momzilla

And we think health care is expensive now.............just imagine if the government got involved in that !

" Uh yes sir, we'll trim you ingrown toenail.It'll only cost the taxpayers 3 million dollars."

Well, if the proposed program only covers government assistance for catastrophic health situations that are not a result of lifestyle choice, I could probably support something like that.

But that is not what Canada, or the other socialized countries, have.

"providing free health care"

dude. I dont argue with people who can't think.

no one can provide free health care ok?

the only thing that the government can do is take money from some people and use the money to permit other people to not pay for the full cost of their health care....

I can think of many out there who could take a lesson from Mr. Williams. By responding so quickly and effectively he has ended the crisis, come out looking classy, helped his union, and done the right thing. Would if only some others on the left had an ounce of that kind of class.

# 180 remote device

the United States spends much more than Canada or other socialized health care nations due to the inevitable inflation created by a free-market health system.

Ahhh the evils of the free-market system.........thats the real booger here isn't it ?

not to mention, hypochondriacs who run to the emergency room every time they get a sniffle.

That's a sore spot with me. Even with private insurance. I pay for all the people who run to the doctor for minor things that don't need professional treatment.

I want my Constitutional Right to healthcare!

I demand that all of you pay for my medical bills. You know; From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs. You have no right to your money because I need it.

/LLL

183 --

The plan doesn't pay for elective surgery, for example. Neither do the systems that are in place in Canada or the UK. When you're so sick that you can't work any more, that's catastrophic. If it came about because of a poor diet, perhaps that's your fault -- but who are we to judge? A poor, uneducated janitor, for example, who works in a mall and eats mall food every day because A) it's all he can afford and B) he doesn't know better, in my view, deserves our help if he comes down with a heart disease that threatens his livelihood. A heroin addict may be a good example of someone who doesn't deserve help, but again, I feel like you're being overly judgemental. I've known people to get trapped in the cycle of drug addiction because of personal problems that were essentially beyond their control. Think of poor Rush and his pain killers. I have sympathy for people who make mistakes. I don't think they should be punished for them -- they should be helped to overcome them; if we help people like Rush (as we have, through the courts) to become active members of society again, then we all benefit. This is the essence of any coherent socialized health care plan.

OT but discussed in this thread:

Wretchard at The Belmont Club has a rather exhaustive analysis of where & how the ambushes are happening in Iraq primarily in the Sunni Al-Anbar province, his conclusion:

If the pattern of American casualties shows that most fighting is happening in Al-Anbar it is not because Administration officials are manufacturing the results to camouflage a "widening insurgency". It is because there is no power vacuum among Kurds and Shi'ias as complete as that in the Sunni triangle. Civil war, if it eventuates, will not be result of military failure but from a lack of commitment to create a replacement Iraqi State. If we build it, it will come.

How Do the Losses Suffered on 9-11 Compare with Other U.S. Tragedies?

Dave the...

Ditto, which is why I *love* the private accounts idea. Say, I have a pot of $2K per year, and the insurer subtracts from it every time I go to the doctor, and at the end of the year, I keep whatever's left. Well, even with a really bad cold like the one I had last weekend that made me miss the Rally and meet-up last weekend, I'm gonna stick hime and tough it out with Tylenol Cold & Flu... because it's my money.

Whereas, if someone else pays the bill, what the Hell?

Like PJO once observed, if the government guaranteed free cat food for life, people would breed kittens.

jeeze...

one of the biggest problems this country faces is that no one takes fricking economics anymore.

1) There aint no such thing as a free lunch.

2) Substitutes exist for EVERYTING.

3) If you provide a commodity to someone at (nearly) zero cost demand for that commodity wil be (nearly) infinite.

I think I can speak alot more about the problems with not having health insurancebecause I am one of the uninsured right now, have been for the last 4 years, and have been uninsured several times in the last 20 years of my up-and-down world of job searches, unemployment, etc.

The basic problem is that (right now) my medical insurance would cost too much out of my new startup-salary positions earnings. Insurance in NY State is ridiculous: in 1990, I was able to insure myself through a basic Blue Cross/Blue Shield plan for about $90/month. Today, insurance would cost me $350/month.

I am in my 40's, never been sick, 2 wisdom teeth pulled in 20 years since leaving college constitutes the bulk of my medical claims. But because I live in a state where the Democrats are in bed with the trial lawyers (the Speaker of the Assembly is a partner with Weitz & Luxemborg, the guys who run those mesolethemia commercials) the cost of insurance skyrockets.

All I need is a basic high-deductible take-care-of-the-basics medical package. I don't want every form of plastic surgery, mental treatment, or birth control jacked onto the cost of my package so I pay for someone elses utilization. I want insurance that meets my needs, more or less like my car insurance. But the politicians have decided they know better than me -- so, F*** 'em.

Basically, I'm self-insured which is admittedly NOT what I would prefer. If I had a family, for sure, you can't "control" events with a spouse and/or kids, and the risks would be alot higher. But for myself, I take care of myself, avoid high-risk activities, no drinking or driving, etc. I have some financial assets that would cover most expenses if god forbid something happened to me. For sure, I wish I worked at a bigger company that provided it for free, along with a few thousand dollars in extra benefits that you end up paying $200-$300 a year for (life insurance, disability, etc).

So far, I figure I have saved about $10,000 if not more in monthly premiums. This was a game I felt very comfortable playing when I was in my 20's but less so as I'm now in my 40's. But given the choice between being careful and saving $300-$400 a month, or getting screwed by paying that $$$ to a combination of an insurance company and NY State, I elect to self-insure.

I am looking into a high-deductible, no-frills insurance policy, HMO (though I didn't like one 12 years ago), or best bet, a Health Savings Account (couldn't buy one years ago as they were forbidden by NY law, now I think the feds overruled the states. Anyone confirm?).

I'll wager that about 10-20% of the 50 million (wasn't it 40 million last month? What happened in 30 days?) are like me: good, healthy, SINGLE people (many probably younger than me) who are making a rational choice not to get ripped off by politicians and beauracrats (I blame them, not the insurance companies, who have to price risk accordingly). Another 20-30% are probably in between jobs. Another 20-30% are probably illegal immigrants who don't have it for that reason. Bottom Line: probably only 10 million really are without health insurance and these folks get health CARE for free.

Anyone interested in the state of health care in Canada should read some of Mark Steyn's columns about same. He has noted, brilliantly, that it is exactly the outgrowth of the "nanny" state that tries to enforce "equality," and winds up with "equality of crap" at a huge cost.

He has noted that there are more MRI machines in the city of Pittsburg than in all of Canada and that Canada has a terrible doctor-patient ratio, since noone wants to bother to work there. He has noted it was the crappy HMO "medical practitioners" in Toronto that misdiagnosed Asian with SARS (despite a multitude of prior health warnings), sent them home (to die) with aspirins and jump started the epidemic.

As a small business co-owner, health care and liablity insurance are our biggest expenses, more than rent, more than computer, more than salaries. While we would welcome reduction in the cost, there is no way that our gov't could possibly develop a cost-effective working systems. We don't need more bureaucrats on the gov't payroll.

#178 Athos

Sully may read LGF.

Last week I commented on Andrew's boring byline:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

He has since changed it to:

"Freedom means freedom for everyone. -- VP Dick Cheney"

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Hey, I'm still waiting to see what the union actually does to discipline that member, but this is a start. I'll have to admit I'm pleasantly surprised.

I walk into this thread late and what do I see? A *troll* pretending that he's going to educate us on policy matters!

GAZE

Why the long hospital waits? It's easy to see:

"Ow! My toe hurts. Might as well have it looked at... it's free."

"Is that a pimple, or something fatal? Might as well have it looked at... it's free."

"Wow. My head really hurts. Is it a tumor, or did I too much tequila last night? Won't hurt to make sure... it's free."

etc. etc. And, quit kidding yourself - it's not "free". You just don't see the bill because they take it out before you get your paycheck.

Some of you make the argument that it's up to the individual to prevent themselves from getting sick, and the rest of us shouldn't have to bear the costs of lazy people who need health care.

Well, why should we? Give me one compelling reason as to why I should subsidize someone else's willful and destructive behaviors?

#180 remote device

Where does this "free" health care come from, Santa or the tooth fairy?

#149 remotedevice

It speaks to the need for a country to at least try to make it an even playing field for all such that opportunity and freedom are equal...isn't that what we're supposed to be all about?

You left out the most important criteria about the US: choice. Take away choice and you take away opportunity. It is something liberals easily forget.

We already have an aspect of socialized medicine... HMOs. Personally, I do not want the government or some company telling me which doctors I can go to or what procedures I can have. It it he reason why I always select a PPO plan over an HMO. A PPO is not perfect but it does keep the insurance company's nose out of which doctors I prefer to go to.

You think that having complete control over something is the fix-all solution. Having complete control over things leads to stagnation. There is no driving force to improve things. I'd rather make my own decisions instead of someone telling me what decision is best for me.

Anyway, how is all this related to some little kid having her sign ripped up? God, I hate seagull posters.

192 --

Socialized health care isn't a "free lunch." It's a sacrifice nations choose to make on behalf of their weakest members. A noble idea, I'd say.

Your supply-and-demand argument (indicating a truly advanced understanding of economics) doesn't make sense with regard to health care. Good health is not a commodity like blue jeans or hairspray. I don't go in for a heart transplant like I go to the movies. I go because I need to go. And if I can't pay for it, I die or incur massive debt that I pass on to my family, making them less productive along with me.

#189 remote

Think of poor Rush and his pain killers. I have sympathy for people who make mistakes. I don't think they should be punished for them -- they should be helped to overcome them; if we help people like Rush (as we have, through the courts) to become active members of society again, then we all benefit. This is the essence of any coherent socialized health care plan.

Nice throwing the jab in at Rush.....shows where you're coming from. Rush was the only drug addict that liberals didnt like.

Anyways, I do have sympathy for people who make mistakes remote...but WHY SHOULD goverment garnish my wages to pay for others mistakes??? What ever happened to personal responsibility??

Also, where in the Constitution does it say everyone has the RIGHT TO HEALTH CARE????

One problem with full government subsidized health care is how long will it take before people start suing to get more things covered? If elective surgurey isn't covered, the legal profession will start suing immediately.

Look at private health care. An employer doesn't pay for birth control (cuz technically getting pregent isn't caused by an illiness), they get sued and are forced to by the courts.

Remote The Economic Illiterate: Medical costs started rising faster than inflation after 1965. What happen that year? The high cost of medicine is not the result of the free market, that includes the cost of medication. Most health dollars are spent on those over 65. If you want to save your entire life for a glorious spending spree in the hospital in old age, that's your business. The cost driver is on the demand side, not the supply side.

If you think there is such a thing as the "right" to an economic good, then go pick it off the trees where you think it grows.

a troll who took "civics" or some such bullshit in high school instead of economics.

this particular argument really pisses me off because I think we have a pretty decent policy balance in this country. people are allowed to make their own health care coverage choices and to some extent at least markets set the price - which means a scarce resource - health care - gets allocated in the most efficent way possible. Bush has put forward some decent policy intitatives that wont destroy the high quality of care we have or take away moreof our damn freedom...

no one dies of gunshot wounds because they are uninsured. i would much rather be a sick or injured uninsured person in the US than a citizen of canada who got sick in ottowa or some shit...

another economic point: systems are not static... the fact that health care costs are rising now does not mean that they will continue to grow exponentially forever... as costs have gone up people have begun to take a look at lifestyle issues. (what percentage of thepopulation smokes today?)

157 Furious J

What a load of unadulterated nonsense.

Let me clue you in on a few things. What the hell do you think private insurance actually is, anyway? It's called a risk pool. People who don't use much medical care subsidize those who do. It's the way any insurance system works. The only difference is whether the risk pool is run by a private insurance company or by the government. So don't for a minute assume that you aren't paying for others in the US system, unless, that is, you don't have insurance at all. But then if you get into an accident and have to go to the emergency room (who can't by law turn you away) it'll be insured shlubs like me who'll end up paying.

For all the blather about socialized medicine, it would help if people actually knew what they were talking about. There are other models besides the US on the one hand and UK/Canada on the other. The systems in France and Japan for example combine excellent quality care with government insurance for those who can't affort private care. Furthermore, in the countries like the UK where socialized medicine is the system, the overall health numbers are not much worse and in some cases (e.g. infant mortality) considerably better than the US. Two of my kids were born in the UK and the pre-natal and post-natal care that we got through the NHS was better than what we got when our third was born in the US. That's not to discount the waiting lists and other severe problems, but those aren't the whole picture.

The US system is unsustainable. We've had years and years of double-digit cost increases. Premiums are going up everywhere and insurance is covering less and less. Doctors are making less money and insurance companies are having trouble staying afloat. And contrary to popular belief, "frivolous" lawsuits are only a small part of the picture. A much larger part is technology, new drugs, new therapies, the aging of the population, the rise in obesity etc.

remote,

Actually I was speaking from the provider side of healthcare. I didn't open my own office to be treated and paid by set arbitrary rules. Right now if you bring your child in needing services and you are destitute, we will treat that child at no charge. Not for the tax break, not because someone tells us to, but because we know it's the right thing to do. If you come into my office, are rude and abusive, I can fire you. Government run healthcare with it's myriad rules and policy dictated from a book interpreted by a wage grade somewhere will change that more than the insurance companies ever dreamed. No thank you. Laissez faire? MArket economy? As the quote from the formerly communist workers used to say: "they pretend to pay us, we pretend to work."

Nice hijack though.

It's a sacrifice nations choose to make on behalf of their weakest members. A noble idea, I'd say.

That's the kind of choice an individual should make, not one a nation should make for an individual.

That's a characteristic of the left, no separation between the state and the individual, that I find profoundly uncomfortable.

e.g. I don't see Tuhrayzuh and John Forbes Kerry giving up any of the homes, boats, jets, or considerable fortune in order to provide health care for society's "weakest members." But they are quite eager to soak everyone else to achieve that.

#202 remote

Socialized health care isn't a "free lunch." It's a sacrifice nations choose to make on behalf of their weakest members. A noble idea, I'd say.

What if I, as a citizen of a free nation CHOOSE to not make that sacrifice?? I'm all for people VOLUNTARILY donating to a fund that would help the weakest members.

But why would I be forced to do so??? Doesnt sound like freedom to me.......If I choose to donate to said fund, great....but if I choose not to, also fine. I would be for that.

Basic economics, you do not want to nationalize 25% of the GDP....bad news man....

dropped the head of the union a note, you al should do the same:

I was thoroughly disgusted by the loutish behavior of your member at that Edwards rally in West Virginia yesterday. While i'll readily concede that this Bush supporter was looking for trouble by attending the rally, that in no way condones or allows one of your members to steal a sign from a THREE YEAR OLD GIRL and tear it up. Apologies are all good & well, Mr. Williams, but they're merely words. If you were truly sorry for one of the more deplorable acts I've ever seen at a political rally (stealing a sign from a little girl b/c you disagree with her politics and then laughing at her tears) you would completely disassociate yourself from this individual and throw him out of your union by the weekend.

By wearing the IUPAT t-shirt, this man was representing both YOU and all the other members when he performed this hateful act. It's inexcuseable for you to allow this man to remain part of your organization and independent voters see this and reflexively throw their lot in with Bush. I'll be interested to see if you heed this advice, because your actions (or inaction) will speak volumes on your union's integrity. I hope you make a wise decision.

#193 L88Vette,

I do hope the double-8's are just a coincidence. I've got no problem with what you posted, but neo-Nazis aren't welcome here.

(To those who don't know, H is the 8^th letter of the alphabet, so 88 can be neo-Nazi slang for Heil Hitler. If I were dude/dolly, I'd modify my nick, just so there were no false impressions)

203 mad_scientist

Sorry about using Rush as an example. I kind of like Rush, actually, even though obviously I completely disagree with him. I find him entertaining and strangely likeable nonetheless.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, we actually pay more out of our taxes than Canada does on a per capita basis for our national health care system. Why, then, don't we have at least a basic level of insurance for all people? The answer is that we've turned the health care system into an industry. Industry always answers to profit motive, which means inflating costs. Drug prices here are higher than anywhere else in the world, as are basic hospital and surgery costs. Why? It's the same reason why movies are fifteen bucks now compared to five in the late 80s. Every aspect of the health system is now geared around profit, so everyone gradually raises their prices. This hits everybody in the pocketbook harder than a small tax increase ever could.

It is advanced, Remote. Your Keynesian drivel is from the Dark Ages. "Sacrifices" are not made by "nations" but by individuals. Your view that a human being is the object of sacrifice is also from the Dark Ages.

The only difference is whether the risk pool is run by a private insurance company or by the government.

I would take the private sector over the govt ANYDAY OF THE WEEK

BPP, you leave out a critical detail. Under the current system, I have a choice. I can change insurance companies, or go without if I determine that those are my optimal economic choices. Also, my insurance company has shareholders who will punish it if it does not control waste and inefficiency.

None of those conditions exist in a system of socialized health care.

A small, but critical, difference.

#207 BPP:

The systems in France and Japan for example combine excellent quality care with government insurance for those who can't affort private care.

Ask these people what they think of France's system.

And I'm not saying the current system is great... far from it... but I think we would be better served by market-oriented reforms than the socialistic models proffered by the left.

remote device...

actually

health care is a commodity.

Substitutions exist for EVERY fricking medical procedure there is. You can absolutely forgo a heart transplant. You may or may not die younger than you would if you had one.

It's a sacrifice nations choose to make on behalf of their weakest members. A noble idea, I'd say.

If I am required to surrender my freedom and my property in order to accomplish the things that you feeel are good and just and noble, then I am required to do so to support the ideals of anyone.... You are attempting to influence the political process so that the contract we make with one another to enjoy life in this country includes a more confiscatory government...

I pay income taxes and I participate in the political debate. I don't want to pay for a socialized health care system, and because Kerry has absolutely no chance of winning this election thank God I wont have to.

I haven't been insured in eleven years. The best insurance is living a healthy lifestyle. I see no reason to pay for somebody's decision to eat at McDonalds three times a day.

Remote: Medicare is geared for profit. Stop attacking a strawman, you are starting to piss me off. You are an ignorant fool.

#212 Iron Fist

Thanks for the heads up.

This guy must have the worst luck ever...

Charleston (WV) Daily Mail, August 27, 1996, Page 3C

Phil Parlock's experience was less calm.

The Huntington man said he was knocked to the ground by a Clinton supporter when he tried to display a sign that read "Remember Vince Foster," the deputy White House counsel who committed suicide in a Washington, D.C., park. His death has become the subject of much debate among Clinton opponents.

"It must have been a strict Democrat who did this," Parlock said, feeling the red abrasions on his face. "Everyone with the exception of him was real peaceful about our protest."

Parlock said some of the crowd tried to make other anti-Clinton demonstrators feel unwelcome. He estimated that about 150 Dole supporters attended the rally, but their signs couldn't be seen for most of the rally.

Charleston (WV) Daily Mail, October 28, 2000, pg. 1A:

Phil Parlock didn't expect to need all 12 of the Bush-Cheney signs he and his son Louis smuggled in their socks and pockets into the rally for Vice President Al Gore.

But each time they raised a sign, someone would grab it out of their hands, the two Huntington residents said. And sometimes it got physical.

"I expected some people to take our signs," said Louis, 12. "But I did not expect people to practically attack us."

The two said they didn't go to the Friday morning rally to start trouble.

"I came to support Bush and try to change some people's minds," Louis said.

#217 BH

Excellent point.

----

Remember folks, GAZE is your friend.

There's no point in shouting at a brick wall.

210 mad--

Well, technically, you're forced to pay for the roads, the sewers, segments of the power grid, government offices everywhere, the war in Iraq...the list goes on. These things, we are told, are essential for the survival and prosperity of the nation. So the argument that somehow our freedoms would be curtailed is nonesense. The real debate is, "is paying for the health care of disadvantaged Americans essential to our future." I think it is. The less the disadvantaged have to worry about, the more likely they are to escape their adversity. I've been there -- it's a slog, and any leg up is not only appreciated, but reciprocated.

Iron fist,

L88 is a model/engine designation. I'd bet a dollar he's (or she) has one. Strange coincidence, like Porsche 911

Shut dowm medicare.
Get rid of HMO's.
Live until you live no more.
L'Chaim!

The less the disadvantaged have to worry about, the more likely they are to escape their adversity.

Gee, that's just exactly what they said about welfare in the 1960's. Forty years and $6 Trillion later, the poverty rate is the same, and the inner cities have never been worse, because Government took the place of of families.

remote you are right... we are required to pay for all kinds of shit.. some I would consider worthwhile and some I would not....

the debate about what to take from people and what to spend it on is one worth having.

it is also a debate the left is losing as people come to realize that more freedom and lower taxes, even if that means fewer/more modest government programs drive prosperity for everyone.

I say again: Kerry is going to lose this election.

#141 remotedevice: Charles is like his puppetmasters in the Bush Administration. He's afraid of the real issues in this campaign, because there's a good chance they could go south on him and result in Kerry's election. So he trots out the smears of the Swift Boats, and earlier Kerry's wife.

That idiot Dan Rather has given him and the other right-wing attack dogs a new diversion from the real issues now too. He'll run with it for all it's worth.

remote

Drug prices here are higher than anywhere else in the world, as are basic hospital and surgery costs

Yes they are higher here but we also have the highest quality health care system in the world.....people from all over the world come to the US for treatment.

Especially from Canada. In the grad school where I work there is a PhD student from Canada, and he hates the Canadian system of care.

He seems to think the socialized medicine caused a 2 tier system. Those who can afford it, politicians included, go to PRIVATE hospitals where the wating time to see a doctor is low, unlike wating 6 months for a surgical procedure that would take 2 weeks here in the US.

Also, those prices are lower there due to govt assistance, and as i said in my previous post.....Nationalizing 25% of the GDP would NOT be a good thing for our economy.

As I said before, I feel for those people.....but If I do not want to pay for their medical coverage i would like that option.....the govt shouldnt FORCE me to do so.

I mean where does this stop?? Say for instance that a person SAVES NO MONEY for retirement, only has SS check coming in (which are minute because the govt has been spending the SS monet for YEARS). Should WE be forced to provide that man with a house?? Everyone should have the right to shelter right?? Should we be FORCED to subsidize his life just because he is a weaker member of society and made mistakes in his life??

disadvantaged Americans

Equal opportunity does not mean equal outcome.
Horatio Alger must be rolling in his grave.

remote device

You're very young, aren't you?

If you ask most people about the cost of medical care, they may tell you how much they have to pay per visit to their doctor's office or the monthly bill for their prescription drugs. But these are not the costs of medical care. These are the prices paid.

The difference between prices and costs is not just a fine distinction made by economists. Prices are what pay for costs -- and if they do not pay enough to cover the costs, then centuries of history in countries around the world show that the supply is going to decline in quantity or quality, or both. In the case of medical care, the supply is a matter of life and death.
The average medical student graduates with a debt of more than $100,000. The cost per doctor of running an office is more than $100 an hour. The average cost of developing a new pharmaceutical drug is $800 million. These are among the costs of medical care.

When politicians talk about "bringing down the cost of medical care," they are not talking about reducing any of these costs by one cent. They are talking about forcing prices down through one scheme or another.

All the existing efforts to control the rising expenses of medical care -- whether by government, insurance companies, or health maintenance organizations -- are about holding down the amount of money they have to pay out, not about reducing any of the real costs.

Many of the same politicians who are gung ho for imposing price controls on prescription drugs, or for importing Canadian price controls by importing American medicines from Canada, have not the slightest interest in stopping frivolous lawsuits against doctors, hospitals, or drug companies -- which are huge costs.

Price control zealots likewise seldom have any interest in reducing the amount of federal requirements for getting a drug approved for sale to the public -- a process that can easily drag on for a decade or more, costing millions of dollars, and also costing the lives of those who die while waiting for the drug to be approved by bureaucrats at the Food and Drug Administration.

For political purposes, what "bringing down the cost of medical care" means is some quick fix that will win votes at the next election, regardless of what the repercussions are thereafter.

What are those repercussions? .....

READ THE REST, DEVICE.

The 'cost' of medical care

Gordon,

It must be tearing you up to see the guy the dems selected as their candidate getting worked...

by a chimpy
by a *
by a bushitler...

The road to recovery for the political left in this country begins the day they realize they hold an unpopular minority viewpoint, and that they no longer control the means to hold on to power in spite of that fact.

Maybe it's also the puppetmasters who are compelling Gordon to communicate like an idiot.

Gordon,

The Bush campaign has one issue first and foremost: There is a war against people who want to kill us.

The Kerry campaign has...what are their issues? Oh, that's right "I'm reporting for duty."

BTW.. you've changed since I started here. What's up?

#229 gordo

I learned a lot about these values on that gunboat patrolling the Mekong Delta with young Americans who came from places as different as Iowa and Oregon, Arkansas, Florida and California. No one cared where we went to school. No one cared about our race or our backgrounds. We were literally all in the same boat. We looked out, one for the other and we still do.

That is the kind of America I will lead as President: an America where we are all in the same boat.

JFK convention speech
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

I lived in Denmark for a while and was shocked to learn that the Danes not only pay for the university tuition of all their citizens, but they also give them money to live off of while they are in school. Denmark has extremely high tax rates, socialized medicine, and nowhere near the problems we have here. Nevertheless, I was struck by the fact that despite these high tax rates and socialist policies, their country was probably the most prosperous one I've ever been to. Why does it work so well there? Could we not learn something from their example? The same thing is on view throughout Europe, and also in Canada. Sure, the wealthy are burdened with extra taxes, but the rates on middle and lower class citizens are, in some cases, lower than they are here. They've got problems of their own, and I don't want America to lose its capitalist energy, but I feel like discounting all these options for governance on the basis of taxation is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

There is a very real possiblity that modern neo-conservative Republicans must consider: namely, that this whole tax-burden-of-social-programs bugaboo is precisely what is creating the problems that the ethos of tax-cutting purports to solve.

Socialized health care isn't a "free lunch." It's a sacrifice nations choose to make on behalf of their weakest members. A noble idea, I'd say

bullcrap. I know too many people with the same income we have who CHOOSE not to have that stinking paultry $200 or so a month deducted from their paychecks to enroll dependents on their employer group policy. I have no problem if they decide that they would rather take their chances on serious disease or injury and spend the money on something else. But they don't have the right to decide how my own money is spent. We chose to invest ours in group health. I doubt that there's been a single year since we have had the coverage (at least 25 years) in which our family medical expenses exceeded our premiums. But if my husband blows his knee jogging, or our daughter gets t-boned at an intersection by an uninsured driver, they are covered. Back when we first married, birth control and childbirth wasn't even covered by insurance unless there were complications. I was a secretary and my husband was a college student playing drums in a band. Trust me when I say, it wasn't easy. But we took care of ourselves and wanted to.

It's expensive for the self employed, but most of these have the same option we have had to take in the past: one spouse taking a job specifically for the group coverage eligibility.

For urgent illness or disease, there is the county hospital system. Nobody gets turned away, regardless of ability to pay. Our county invested in opening some satellite clinics in poorer neighborhoods to ease the burden from all the sore throat cases coming into the ER. It's saved money in the long run. But those with medicaid don't even have to use county; they go to the same doctors I do with my PPO.

The only gripes I hear about county are the waits. Oh, WAH. I grew up in a military family and from age birth to 18 never once had an appointment, except in speciality situations when we were referred to Walter Reed. We went to sick call in the morning and just waited our turn.

#225 Bob with one O,

Ahhhhh, OK. I'm not a car person, so I didn't get it. If I were him/her I'd probably still change the nick. The double-eights are just a warning flag for me.

I don't think any of us, regardless of our positions on the issues, want that type of person (i.e. neo-Nazi) around. If I was wrong, I do apologize.

And we all see how Denmark is the strongest nation in the world that came and saved our bacon from the Germans and pumped billions of dollars into building up our infrastructure after defeating our enemies........

#224 remotedevice

The less the disadvantaged have to worry about, the more likely they are to escape their adversity.

"Let them run naked through the streets."

I think that summarizes why I would rather make the decisions for myself on health care matters versus the government. Decisions that affect individuals are better addressed on the local level versus the federal level. Running naked through the streets may be the best solution up in Nantucket, but it does not work in Texas.

Remote: Are you unable to distinguish between certain, limited public goods (and even roads are debatable) and the CREATION of goods and services in the market place? Your list is a mixed bag. "Government offices everywhere" part of the problem. National Defense: You would prefer to contract that out?

Your view that somehow medicine is exempt from the laws of supply, demand and economic science have not been demonstrated anywhere on Earth. Unless you are a nudist, you also need clothes. Is there any "need" for which the government is not tasked to provide you? Should the fedgov give away coupons to the Chicken Ranch? That would be filling real need for leftist, college geeks.

Gordo shows up in the middle of an issues discussion and, instead of contributing to the issue discussion, he bashes Bush by belching a nasty comment about how Bush and everyone on LGF only want to make bashing comments so they don't have to talk about the issues.

Sometimes you have to wonder if he is even serious, or just the master king faux troll of all time.

OK, off topic here, but thought I'd throw in my $0.02.

Anyone notice the next hurricane after Jeanne is named Karl?

How does Rove do this?

The evil genius behind the curtain, the man who duped CBS, has apparently issued orders to NOAA to name
a hurricane after himself.

Note to liberals: All conservatives, Bush voters, and smart people have received the secret memo on how to avoid any damage to limb and property.

For a small fee, I can let you know how to stay out of Karl's destructive path.

And here's the kicker. Hurricane Karl will intentionally hit voting stations only in Democratic precincts in SoFla.

Disenfranchising the vote via natural disaster.

What will this man think of next?

Wile E. Rove. Suuuuuper Genius.

Remote: move back to the socialist nirvana of Denmark. Is one free country in the world, one too many for you?

#237 remotedevice:

, the wealthy are burdened with extra taxes, but the rates on middle and lower class citizens are, in some cases, lower than they are here.

Wow. "Sure, one group of people is unfairly inconvenienced. But the rest of us benefit."

Imagine if someone had used that rationale back in the 1800's. "Yeah, those black folks gotta work pretty hard. But the rest of us get cheap textiles."

#237 remote device
This isn't Denmark, thank heaven.

I learned recently that at my son's university, foreign students have to pay their entire 4-year tuition cost up front.

I like that.

I remember reading an article saying that if the nations of Europe were states in the US they would all be ( except about 3 of them) the poorest.

* racking my brain trying to remember were I read that*

#88 Gordon

Andrew Sullivan's analysis is unequivocably refuted at Belmont Club, Iraq 1.1

#237 remotedevice

Denmark population: 5,413,392
United States population: 293,027,571

Very good example. Maybe you can apply your model to the city of Los Angeles? New York would be out of the picture since it has a population of roughly 8 million.

Imagine if someone had used that rationale back in the 1800's. "Yeah, those black folks gotta work pretty hard. But the rest of us get cheap textiles."

Ever notice how democrats are always in favor of screwing over one group of people in order to get votes from another.

Beginning with Andrew Jackson, "let's take those Indians' land away from them and give it to settlers." Then, through the southern slaveholders, "Let's take those black folks' labor away from them and give it to white folks." Now it's, "let's take those rich folks' money away from them and give it to whatever group we're trying to buy off this election."

remotedevice:

"I lived in Denmark for a while and was shocked to learn that the Danes not only pay for the university tuition of all their citizens, but they also give them money to live off of while they are in school. Denmark has extremely high tax rates, socialized medicine, and nowhere near the problems we have here. Nevertheless, I was struck by the fact that despite these high tax rates and socialist policies, their country was probably the most prosperous one I've ever been to. Why does it work so well there? Could we not learn something from their example?"

Go back to Denmark, or to Europe, or any other Socialist utopia you dream of and stop trying to ruin the only free country on the planet!

Hey Charles,

You need to change the headline for this post: Union apologizes for being duped by man and his son.

Turns out the "unionist" is his own son.

And, naturally, this is the third time he's pulled this stunt.

As a father of 10 kids, shouldn't he be, oh, working?

Denmark
Pop: 5,413,392 (July 2004 est.)

Life expectancy
total population: 77.44 years
male: 75.17 years
female: 79.83 years (2004 est.)

GDP per capita
$31,200 (2003 est.)

GDP Growth rate:
0.35% (2004 est.)

United States
Pop: 293,027,571 (July 2004 est.)

Life expectancy
total population: 77.43 years
male: 74.63 years
female: 80.36 years (2004 est.)

GDP per capita
$37,800 (2003 est.)

GDP Growth rate:
3.1% (2003 est.)

World Fact Book

A stagnate economy with little opportunity for upward movement, yep, sounds like Europe to me.

Maybe I'm naive.

Why would anyone expect violence at a rally where the VP candidate would appear, supposedly attended by boat-loads of security? Security usually means a certain level of safety.

Does anyone (Reaganite?) know the actual incidence of comparable numb-skull violence at run-of-the-mill political events held by high-level candidates?

How telling is it that the LLL's criticize the father for bringing his toddler... seems like they're breezily predicting this thuggery.

Know the enemy & know thyself, and the outcome of a 1000 battles will never be in doubt.

The LLL's don't think like us.

Are you unable to distinguish between certain, limited public goods (and even roads are debatable) and the CREATION of goods and services in the market place? Your list is a mixed bag. "Government offices everywhere" part of the problem. National Defense: You would prefer to contract that out?

Well, er, we actually *do* contract out our national defense.

Check out the employment pages at:
[Link: www.saic.com...]

This is a serious problem. We should never have deregulated our intelligence and military services and opened them up to the private sector. Iraq is only one of the disasters that has occured because of that. Which is why I find it hard to understand that more privatization/deregulation is somehow a good thing.

216 Furious J

BPP, you leave out a critical detail. Under the current system, I have a choice. I can change insurance companies, or go without if I determine that those are my optimal economic choices. Also, my insurance company has shareholders who will punish it if it does not control waste and inefficiency.

More nonsense.

SOME people can change insurance carriers, but that is generally not a choice based on economics but rather which doctor accepts which plan. The costs are usually quite comparable. And many, many people have no choice at all.

As for going without insurance, that is NEVER an "optimum economic choice" as the cost of a catastrophic health issue is enough to bring most people financial ruin. An example: I was without insurance for a bit a few years ago when I was out of work for a bit and there was a bureaucratic snafu which meant that my COBRA plan was dropped. At that exact moment, my daughter was hospitalized for four days with a respiratory infection. The bill was $18,000 and there was nothing I could do about it. Now I can afford it, but a similar situation for someone else would ruin them.

"Waste and inefficiency" are MUCH more prevalent in the US system than they are in, say, the UK. Case in point: when my son was born in London (at a leading teaching hospital, I might add), the delivery was done by a midwife with a doctor on call. Besides my wife and me there was one person in the delivery room. When my daughter was born, in the US, there was an MD obstetrician, an MD anesthesiologist and an MD neo-natologist, as well as a nurse, all for what turned out to be an exceedingly routine delivery. It's not for nothing that the US spends 15% of GDP on health and the UK only spends about 8%. And with roughly comparable numbers in life expectancy etc.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the UK system is better. It's just not all bad. I suspect you have such a knee-jerk reaction to anything to do with "socialism' that you'd have trouble seeing this. In addition, you don't seem to have a feel for how the current US system is problematic for so many people, and not just the uninsured.

J.D. --

The average medical student graduates with a debt of more than $100,000. The cost per doctor of running an office is more than $100 an hour. The average cost of developing a new pharmaceutical drug is $800 million. These are among the costs of medical care.

Hmm...I wonder why those particular costs (education, pharma research) are so high?

Good point BH. In other words, Remote would have investment taxed to provide for current consumption. An excellent recipe for the stagnation and high unemployment of the Eurinals.

Remote, try reading: "Development as Freedom" by Amartya Sen.

David S. Landes, "The Wealth and Poverty of Nations."

Douglass C. North and Robert Paul Thomas "The Rise and the Western World." Douglass C. North and Amartya Sen are Nobel Prize holders for Economic science.

Well, er, we actually *do* contract out our national defense.

Uh, no... the government buys equipment and services from private defense firms... like almost every country in the world including your beloved EUrotopia ... but operations are still controlled by the government.

This is like the second coming of VFI here.

Unions, for the most part, are anachronisms. All they're good for is raising the cost of goods and services.
The Hispanic non-union painters in the D.C. area can do twice as much work at half the rate and they're happy for the work. I'd hire them any day over a union painter
(and I have!)
In my position as the person responsible for my company's print sourcing, I avoid union print shops at all costs. In my experience, they charge 30% more, take twice as long to output the job and then blame you for their mistakes.
There is no reason for a union in this day and age.

BH --

I wrote that I thought it was okay if the rich paid more taxes so that the poor wouldn't suffer so much. Then you wrote:

Wow. "Sure, one group of people is unfairly inconvenienced. But the rest of us benefit."

Imagine if someone had used that rationale back in the 1800's. "Yeah, those black folks gotta work pretty hard. But the rest of us get cheap textiles.

Wow. You just compared the slaves to modern millionaires. How exactly does that make sense?

RIP Ford --

How about looking at the disparity between rich and poor. Nowhere in Europe do you find the vast ghettoes and shanties we've come to accept here in America.

#248 Praxeus

I'm looking for it too, but can't seem to find it. Do you remember any phrases from the article that would help in my google search?

This is a serious problem. We should never have deregulated our intelligence and military services and opened them up to the private sector. Iraq is only one of the disasters that has occured because of that.

If you're referring to the Niger Yellowcake and other intelligence failures, those involved the CIA, which last I heard, was a government agency.

And how were the intelligence and military "deregulated"?

remotedevice -

Wow. You just compared the slaves to modern millionaires. How exactly does that make sense?

Excessive taxation is a form of slavery.

#253

Hey Charles,

You need to change the headline for this post: Union apologizes for being duped by man and his son.

Turns out the "unionist" is his own son.

And, naturally, this is the third time he's pulled this stunt.

THE LEFT IS DESPERATE FOR A HOAX
By Michelle Malkin · September 17, 2004 01:14 PM
Just got off the phone with Phil Parlock, who is amused by desperate liberal rumor-mongering (endorsed here) that the man wearing an IUPAT t-shirt and holding a piece of his little girl's Bush/Cheney sign is his own son.

"That's ridiculous. This is a small town," Parlock told me from his home in Huntington, W. Virginia. "Everyone would recognize him."

Parlock and his daughter were surrounded by a group of about five or six nasty pro-Kerry folks, two or three of whom wore IUPAT shirts. He received a voice mail from the president of the IUPAT, whose apology (as noted below) is here. Am waiting for a call back from IUPAT president James Williams.

[Link: michellemalkin.com...]

Wow. You just compared the slaves to modern millionaires. How exactly does that make sense?

If you don't have the right to the products of your labors, how can you say that your labor is truly free?

#262 remotedevice

How about looking at the disparity between rich and poor. Nowhere in Europe do you find the vast ghettoes and shanties we've come to accept here in America.

Bullshit. You just don't see them as a tourist. I dare you to go near most government housing projects in Europe and tell them that they're better off then the US poor.

Furious J --

Did you go to the SAIC site? SAIC is one of many military-intelligence subcontractors. They do not merely provide equipment. They provide boots-on-the-ground operatives, doing everything from arms inspection to intelligence gathering and interrogation.

Please, check out the employment pages for a moment:

[Link: jobs.saic.com...]

In particular, check out the Defense/Geopolitical category.

Then get back to me.

#262 remotedevice

the vast ghettoes and shanties we've come to accept here in America.

Just curious, can you name one?

#262

Nowhere in Europe do you find the vast ghettoes and shanties we've come to accept here in America.

You got an address for those vast ghettoes. Or, is it just the sentiment that counts. If so CBS is looking for "talent".

#149 Remotedevice
>>But ask any of the 50 million uninsured Americans what they'd rather have -- a wait for their surgery, or no surgery at all.

Great idea. Substantially degrade the healthcare for 4/5ths of the US population (the 200 million INSURED Americans) to slightly improve the 20% who isn't insured. Now instead of same-day CAT scans and MRIs EVERYONE gets to wait six months. Excellent plan. Do you realize this may actually cause more deaths and greater overall suffering? Do you even care?

Wait -- let me guess: From each according to his means, to each, according to his needs, let them eat cake, etc.

Hoser.

It is a good thing, Remote. But not for certain functions of national defense. Are you also opposed to the privatization of the shoe industry? How about book publishing?

Iraq is a "disaster" because Bush has listened to your ilk and is therefore fighting a namby-pamby PC war.

If you are still unable to discern between legitimate "public goods" paid for by taxes and the free market based on private property read Adam Smith.

Nowhere in you postings have you deigned to acknowledge the existence of private property. Leave it to a socialist to view all property and people as property of the state.

If you want the state to take care of your "needs," you deserve it. But the rest of us that know better, do not.

#262 removedevice:

Wow. You just compared the slaves to modern millionaires. How exactly does that make sense?

It makes sense because they both fit the template: allowing for a different set of rules for one subset of the population. Once you agree to that, you open the door for any number of arbitrary rulings. And the next person in charge might not be as "compassionate" as you seem to think you are.

Rip Ford

I remember some Dutch economists put it together.................. I read it over at [Link: www.fredriknorman.com...]