Are all socialists inherently self-haters? Michael Moore hates America, Noam Chomsky hates America and Israel, and now we find how much Zapatero and his cronies hate their own country's heritage and traditions.

The Red-Green alliance marches on toward dystopia.

"Mr Zapatero plans an entire programme of social reform, including equality for homosexuals, allowing women to inherit the Spanish throne, liberalising abortion laws, lifting restrictions on embryo research and cracking down on domestic violence."

Memo to dhimmi boy -- you can introduce these policies, you can submit to the islamists, but you cannot do not both! Those state-funded mosques will start biting your hand before the year is out.

What's a 10x stronger term for "useful idiot?"
:-~

Squeal like a Camel, Zap.

It's probably an easy decision for Zapatero given recent Spanish history. The Catholics aren't bombing trains and threatening jihad.

Can this be true? The terrorists have truly won in Spain. Thanks for the appeasement, this will only encourage more terrorism. We are seeing a war of civilizations, reliving the crusades on Fast Forward.

Los Moros Reconquista

#5 Bernie...hi :)

They will be after this.
How many are wishing they could take back their vote now, I wonder?

Zapatero really is the candidate of Al Qaeda...

I sense another civil war in the making and the re-expulsion of Moors.

How long before Zappy is assasinated? Any bets?

Zapatero must be a "revert" to Islam.

Please remember folks, the Spainiards vote in favor of this.

We have a very similar choice in November because Kerry will adopt very similar policies. First surrender on all military fronts followed by a cultural revolution, including state support of Islamic education and mandated courses of study under the rubric of "multiculturalism". Count on it.

Wow

I'm at loss.

Still part of the Franco hangover. They'll snap out of it, hopefully before it goes waaay too far out in Left field.

/just sayin'

OT

I’m perhaps entirely misguided here, but for me both Europe’s fake-optimism and its very real self-righteousness sound like people whistling in the dark. There’s some kind of correlation between impotence and loudness. Seeing the anti-war protestors marching below my window before the Iraqi campaign I couldn’t avoid asking myself: what does it make 150 thousands Parisians imagine that to march along some Parisian boulevards crying slogans can in any way stop 150 thousand American troops from invading a country half a world away? That was their show of strength and I’m still trying to imagine how they felt afterwards as soon as they realized (well, those among them who did realize) that what they did was, in practical terms, useless, futile, a waste of time. The British protestors were at least marching against their own government, but what weight do 150 thousand Parisian marchers carry in the US decision making process? If a country wants to have some influence in the world, it needs a strong army, a strong economy or, better, both. Otherwise all it is left with is that overused oxymoron: “soft power”.

I’m still convinced that the “root cause” for almost all popular anti-Americanism around the world is pure and simple propaganda. But in the European case, as we’ve already seen in the 20s and 30s, a mix of impotence and incitement can take very nasty turns. When it comes to solve the continent’s problems, anti-Americanism will prove as useless as the triumphalism of Eurospeak. But the mix is potentially dangerous, first of all for the Europeans themselves.

[Link: www.europundits.blogspot.com...]

The Spaniards chose the wrong course in the 1930s and they are choosing the wrong course this time around as well.

I agree with Stop Hillary: this is a preview of what a Kerry administration would be like. Folks, stopping Kerry from becoming president is one of the most important contributions we can make to our country...we must do everything we can...vote, volunteer time to the Bush campaign, etc...

Interesting day on the religious calendar, though

Hey Renee.

You not going to Wings over the Smokies?

Screw spain. They've already submitted to the cult when they left Iraq.
The spainish voting population did it to themselves after the 3/11 train bombing.

I don't think you need anymore evidence of the red-green alliance. If it was truly about getting religion out of politics and taxation then there wouldn't have been a simultanous mosque-funding.

Maybe this will cause Zapatero to lose the next election.

Or not.

Either way, it doesn't matter for us. Spain is not an ally now. Continental western Europe ain't worth a spit. They can march off wherever they want, and it doesn't affect us in the US. Indeed, if anything, it only strengthens our anti-Socialist resolve here.

If the Spaniards are this pathetic, perhaps the Mexicans might want to take a stab at conquering Spain since it is so easy.

Perhaps Zapatero will legalize intimate relationships between men and camels next.

OT, but somehow relevant:

Google collaborates with Sino-fascists.

Reported, ironically enough, by Appeasementssoiated Press.

Even though I'm Catholic, I see no problem with a state becoming fully secular. But the fact that the state is officially recognizing a hostile force bent on reconquest, well, all I can say is the Moroccan al Qaeda suicide bombers, although hopefully now roasting in hell, suceeded in their mission beyond their wildest dreams.

#13 RIP Ford
I'm not at a loss. The underlying premise of the left is the belief that man is by nature good. I have no truck with original sin as professed by Christianity, but evil exists. If the left recognized evil in any guise outside social policy and admitted it is a human choice, it would have to confront issues it has never been prepared for. Issues like objective right vs. objective wrong. Issues like freedom vs. license. Issues like the individual vs. the collective.

The left is morally mute and only mouths the words.

Zapatero's sucking up to the mullahs is reprehensible and scary, but OTOH cutting off state funding to the church is long overdue.

I posted this yesterday on another thread with reference to the number of members of Opus Dei in Aznar's government. Trillo-Figueroa was defence minister.

[Link: www.wsws.org...]

Trillo-Figueroa is said to be a supernumerary member of the Prelature of the Holy Cross and Opus Dei—commonly known as “Opus Dei” (Latin for “Work of God”). Founded in 1928, Opus Dei is an ultra-right-wing movement that recruited many of its members from Spain’s wealthy and powerful families. It flourished under General Franco’s rule and provided ministers to his government. Its clannishness and secrecy has won it the name of “Holy Mafia.”

Its founder Jose Maria Escriva de Balaguer died in 1975, was beatified by the Pope in 1992 and was controversially made a saint in 2002, in record-breaking time.

Jesus Ynfante, author of the critical Founding Saint of Opus Dei, says that Escriva was an unashamed fascist. “He had Madrid under his control, starting with the dictator. Under Franco the clerical fascism of Opus Dei won out over the true fascism of the Falange [political party],” he wrote. Escriva has also been quoted as saying that Hitler would save Christianity from Communism.

The group’s annual income has been estimated at around £120 million—enough to fund hundreds of schools and universities and help make it one of the fastest growing movements within the Catholic church. It is present in 80 countries. The group is estimated to have up to 77,000 members.

El Mundo recently named a raft of senior officials in the defence, justice and interior ministries who belong to the order, which encourages its followers to seek positions of power. “Defence, law and order and the judiciary are in the hands of Opus,” said Juan Carlos Rodriguez, the socialist president of Extremadura region’s government.

With the insertion of the cross onto its soldiers’ uniforms, the government is making clear that the invasion and occupation of Iraq are but the first step towards a renewed campaign of colonial conquest by the advanced capitalist countries.

See Also:
Spain: Aznar rejects public inquiry into military plane crash

BTW, there has now been an enquiry into that plane crash, and the findings are damning...

#18
Bernie,
No :(
Don can't leav...changing software at the hospital this weekend. But we are riding up to West Baden tomorrow. Note on chapter A message board.
You and Steve wanta ride along with us?

#20 Sergio -- "Maybe this will cause Zapatero to lose the next election."

The socialists have seized power. There will not be a next election.

Hey, where's Andrew Sullivan on this? Back in the day when Sullivan was honest with himself and cared most about winning the War on Terror rather than legalizing gay marriage, he would have been all over this.

Now, he just finds ways to manipulate words to try to make Kerry seem acceptable and to, of course, bash Bush.

#3 Buckaroo

All-natural, new and improved, turbo idiot.

jrdroll

Thanks for the great link.

I think Europe is already too far gone. If we don't take a stand here, in ten years or so, we will be Spain.

Thomas Jefferson made a famous observation that "Great innovations should not be forced on slender majorities."

Zapatero is putting a lot on the plate here, especially for a guy who slid into office as he did. We can only hope that he pisses so many people off so fast that he'll have to call new elections before too long.

But this guy is simply off the wall.

Further enraging conservatives, the government has drawn up plans to finance the teaching of Islam in state-run schools and to give funds to mosques on the grounds that it will create greater understanding of the country’s one million Muslims.

The terrorists have won in Spain. The terrorists have defeated a Western nation -- it won't be long before everyone realizes how soundly.

We can still lose this. Although I'm just as inclined as the next man to make jokes about the weakness of the Spanish government, I can't help but think: this could happen to us. Spain might not be the most advanced country in Europe, but it's still a Western, European nation enthralled by political correctness -- just like the United States.

This has to be a wake-up call for all of us. We are in a war, and we can still lose.

Glwing:

Steve's riding to Apple Festival in Liberty with his bro in the am. My Mom and I are going to get the invitations designed and made for their 50th anniversary celebration.

# 31 Beag

"Turbo idiot"

That idea has legs errr wheels!
:-)

Re; #1 Jake

I think you are on to something. I believe George Orwell wrote about this phenomenon with respect to the "intelligentsia" in Great Britain before and after WW II. In that case, they tended to support communism (blindly) and refused to fight facsim before the war. It would be interesting to see this pathology explained.

I now believe William F. Buckley's quote where he stated that "he would rather be ruled by the first 100 names listed in the Boston phone book than by the faculty of Harvard."

I think all of this war and violence in the world is driving people into the peaceful loving religion of the prophet Muhammed. After all, all of the other religions are wrong and Islam is so very peaceful . . . SHWANK!

Spain lost 25 years of advance under franco.
They are just getting to 1964. Hey I might visit myself, i dig go-go boots and early beatles music. :-)

I agree that if we aren't careful, and don't make a stand, then the US could easily slip into the Eurostyle form of secular socialism. Look, the Dem party is running a candidate whose platform is basically that he wants us to be more like Europe.

Unfortunately, left wing ideology has its temptations for many people...many people respond to the idea that govt can and will take care of them, and the idea that appeasement works, because both are ultimately the same message: that taking the seeming easy way out will work.

#24

Yes they did succeed. And alas, they are now being rewarded by Allah with 72 virgins and three male camels.

Bernadette,

Have a fun day and tell your mom we said hi :)

When is their 50th?

grayp,

FWIW, I completely agree with your post.
I'm just blown away by the complete absence of backbone these days. I know why, and your post goes a long way to explaining it, but to see your worst fears come to pass in your lifetime is enough to knock you back a bit.

GLwing It's 11/27

Charles,

Some cleanups over on the "Burkett Smears Bloggers" post.

This Gth poster is trouble ?

#41 Iron Fist -- "They've walked into this with their eyes wide open. I always tell my students 'Never get yourself hurt sparing an assailant the just consequences of their actions."

What do you teach?

I have emailed the news link to all my peeps on the fence with a message,
"this will be the US if sKerry is elected"
It's amazing how many idiots are so myopic and narcissistic. It's not "the economy stupid" it's "islamic terrorism stupid"

The face of Spain's future.

"Although Spain has been a Catholic country since the expulsion of the Moors in 1492. . . "

Ummm, I think it was the Jews who were expelled in 1492 .
The Moors were also expelled, but a bit later. (Can't the journalists ever read a book or something--or check their facts??) The Moors lost Granada in 1492, but weren't expelled totally from the country until the reign of Philip II.

Of course, nothing in the above is meant to suggest that
the modern day Moors don't have a right to reclaim Granada for the Ummah. . .

How long has it been since Spain threw out the Moors? Too soon they forget. But it isn't multi-culti to teach historical facts; history has to rephrased & remolded to protect sensitivities. All it took was a few bombs on a train and the Moors have retaken the country.

Either Spaniards wake up quickly and boot out Zapatero & Company, or it will be too late.

If AQ and its affiliated Islamofascist terror organizations pull off another attack in the US before 2 Nov, will Americans be stupid enough to vote for Weasel Kerry? Or will they stand up and declare to fight against this evil, and keep Bush?

I keep praying we catch more terror cells here, and all those trying to get into the country.

I have been lurking on these pages of LGF For a little while now, What I see is an energized group of very talented people , good people with a common thread that runs through us. The defeat of Jfn K .. I ask you lizardoids to take some of your time and talents and volunteer them to your local republican committee. To reelect our president.
Hey thanks in advance Jim

What's a 10x stronger term for "useful idiot?"

I vote that we call them "Zapaterists", in honor of His dhimminess Himself. He truly is an example for moonbats and appeasers worldwide.

I'd really like to help the anti-Jihad out by meeting a beautiful Catholic woman and proliferating a handsome swarm of healthy freedom-loving children, but I gotta wrap up my dissertation and prep for classes, and she ain't knocking on my door right now. . . .

***SIGH***

(Damn, forgot to tote some beer with me to the office --I missed out on a potential drinking thread with Two Rivers Red. I'll have to be soberly despondent.)

*sigh*

I used to like Spain.

cont'd --
Cuz when I'm not praying for God's help & guidance in ridding the world of this evil, I'm madder 'n' hll & cussin' up a storm at the unbelievable stupidity of a majority of the 80% of the world's population that are not muslim and endangered by those m*r-f*krs!

Yes, it's only a sixth of the world's population that aims to turn the rest into corpses and slaves. But that much evil could do it, if we let them -- if we let them.

2 Things:

I had heard that the bombings in Spain were being planned for 2 years- before Spain joined the Coalition of the Willing, Brave and Free.

I also heard that Spain under Aznar had outstanding numbers in reguards to economic growth. Something like 20% growth- the best of of the mainland.

How are the Spaniards faring now? Anyone know? (anyone care?...)

It hurts that our Spanish ally sucks now!

song_and_dance_man, He has the eagle eyed look of a real predator doesn't he?

Spain...have no fear, you will love your beards and burkas

Don Quixote (rolling over in his grave): I must be dreaming, this is impossible...

How are you Iron Fist, well I hope.

#57 logger phd -- "I'd really like to help the anti-Jihad out by meeting a beautiful Catholic woman and proliferating a handsome swarm of healthy freedom-loving children, but I gotta wrap up my dissertation and prep for classes, and she ain't knocking on my door right now. . ."

Sorry dude, you are 25 years too late. I found her, been there and done that. And have four strong kids that you can't bullshit.

Now it is your turn.

And how are you grayp?

Two months ago I was unhappy enough with some of
Bush's policies that I wasn't going to vote this time around. A month ago I realized what a disaster Kerry and his supporters are, and decided I need to vote for Bush. Now I can see that I need to do a little more than just vote, because this election is so important. So it's off to volunteer-land for a few weekends.

Hasta la vista, Spansies, but I had already written you off, along with Fwance & Chermanie. Enjoy sharia, courtesy of Mr. Shoemaker (sandals, perhaps, y'know the kind you wear on hajj?)

#46 RIP Ford
from #15 jrdroll's link

My father, who had the dubious pleasure of spending the war years in Hungary, has been telling me since my childhood what a depressive experience it could be for a Hungarian Jew to hear the BBC. While the German and their satellites’ papers and radio spoke ceaselessly of continuous battlefield successes, all the BBC had to offer was news of British defeats and retreats: we lost France, we lost Greece, we lost Crete and so on and on. Even more dispiriting was to hear Churchill say that if the Germans invaded the British Isles, the British army would retreat to Canada and continue its fight from there

Civilization has never risen, continued or progressed on the shoulders of the misguided and misinformed majority, democracy notwithstanding. It has always been nurtured by the courage of the forsaken. That's us. The forsaken.

#51 Geepers
The terrorists must be laughing. He looks like Mr. Bean up to something.

the government has drawn up plans to finance the teaching of Islam in state-run schools and to give funds to mosques on the grounds that it will create greater understanding of the country’s one million Muslims.

I wonder if they would pay me as a guest lecturer? I promise that I will teach Islamic understanding directly from the koran according to what all Islamists believe. I will not nitpick but explain it as Islamists and the koran agree on content. There is no need to pick at Islam; it's basic foundation blocks and core idealogy exposes itself as an anti-religion.

In my office I have a picture of Ferdinand and Isabella, right next to a photo of Todd Beamer. I pray that the bullfighting people of Spain wake up and savagely kick the moors out of their country. And where did they get their current idiot of a leader?

Well, at least we don't have all the d'himmis and fools here in the USA

# 65 Stop Hillary

Now it is your turn.

Praying that ship has not sailed without me. . . .

Well, barring being a generous gene donor, I suppose I can take up arms with fearless abandon --killing jihadists is a better way to go than being a confirmed bachelor.

Or is it "bachelour" in Canada? ;-)

Where's El Cid when you need him?

Heck, even Don Quixote would kick more ass than Zapatero can.

#76 Cornholio

¡Arriba! ¡Nicaragua!

Do you have your blog up yeat, or have you shelved that indefinitely?

The Left is as dangerous as the Islamofascists. Islam couldn't succeed w/o this pathetic moral equivalent (if not inverted morality, Christians bad Muslims good) self destructive socialism trojan horse w/in the gates of the West.

It can't be close in November.

#66 Elcid

Hello, sweetheart. I'm quite well. How's the property in PCB?

#78 logger phd  

LOL! Yes, Cornholio is another Spaniard who kicks ass. Thanks for asking about the blog. It's gonna happen, but it's on the back burner for now due to work and personal issues. (Work sucks but I met this cute girl. So, you know, back burner ;-)

I think this is a good idea. With the Catholic Church out of the way, Spain can head towards a more secular society. And if they finance Islamic schools and Mosques, it will be under the auspices of the Spanish authorities. Meaning that they'll assign the Imams, they'll assign what gets taught, and they can keep an eye on the Muslim population.

Remember, all other Mosques will not be legitimate under this new plan.

#41 Iron Fist

"Never get yourself hurt sparing an assailant the just consequences of their actions."

Wow. Words to live by, and not just in street fights.

#26 Grayp: I agree, the Left has a stupid view that man is naturally good. I grew up Catholic with the idea drummed into me that man is naturaly bad. I don't think that is true either. But I can sure see these days that the idea that man is naturally good has Very Worse consequences than the idea that man is naturally bad. If you think that you might be naturally bad, then at least you have the impetus to try and fix any bad tendencies in yourself. This usually has better results than to think you are good, and thus to be lazy and easy prey to any sneaky or even blatent evil! And what I really think is that Man is neutral, and to be good you have to work at it. That is much closer to the Catholic view than the liberal view. I could go on about how insane the Left is, but time to do other stuff, like clean the kitchen and get the kids to bed. Goodnight

Further enraging conservatives, the government has drawn up plans to finance the teaching of Islam in state-run schools and to give funds to mosques on the grounds that it will create greater understanding of the country’s one million Muslims.

The best way to create greater understanding of the countries 1 million muslims is to have everyone read LGF., Jihad Watch, Victor Davis Hanson, Belmont Club, and Victor Davis Hanson on a regular basis.

I don't understand why people act so stupid over it. The September 11 attacks were proven to be planned long before Bush, and yet the liberals spin it as Bush's fault. I have no doubt the same happens with Spain. Not to mention that they were bombed after they pulled out, too.

Mostly, I just wonder how the hell liberals think like that. It's like double-think or something. Elect the pacifists and the terrorists, who have been forever hounding you just because you exist, will go away. That everything that happens is the fault of "warmongers" and "religious Right."
That when nothing happens because the terrorists are being killed, it is because there are no terrorists at all.

What the hell causes them to think like that?

And why does Zapatero not only knuckle under but basically surrender to radical Islam on the terrorists' own terms? What the hell causes him to do that? I wonder if it is just some twisted version of "white guilt," as Pat Conroy described his own mentality, that gives people a zealous, irrational need to bend over backwards to accomodate a race or ideology you have wronged in the past. Is that why Zapatero has it out for Catholicism? The liberal excuse, "Yeah, they do wrong, but look at what we've done to them!"?

I still cannot understand it. On the note of Catholicism, however, my bets for the next Pope are on the Nigerian bishop, who probably has practical experience with the front lines in the war of religions. John Paul II, to his eternal credit, went "behind the lines" with the Nazis and the Soviet Union, but times are changing. I'm sad to see the old Pope slipping away, but maybe his successor will have Islamofascism high on the target list. One can hope.

grayp

"How's the property in PCB?"

From what the Realtor said...guess we passed...dodged another bullet...thank God..poor Florida is about to get raked again...damn.

Hate to joke, but this has to be bad karma, from the 2000 election...but those poor damn people...well poor, as well as the 'well off'..

#43 Kevin Lende

And alas, they are now being rewarded by Allah with 72 virgins and three male camels.

What's amazing to me is that the reward for a female suicide bomber is to become one of these 72 virgins and still there are female suicide bombers. I'd rather burn in hell.

#23 Q  

Google collaborates with Sino-fascists.

Interesting. The other day I was speculating about why Xinhua (the proganda arm of the Chinese government) always features so prominently in googlenews hits.

I've always found "do no evil" an annoying corporate motto. As if all other companies are evil, and google is a saint. Arrogant billionaires.

I AM stupid but I don't think the rank & file people of Spain will put up with this. Even for them this is going to be beyond belief!

#82 Cornholio

It's gonna happen, but it's on the back burner for now due to work and personal issues. (Work sucks but I met this cute girl. So, you know, back burner ;-)

You are excused.

Drop me an e-mail when the blog comes up.

91 stuck in california

I don't think the rank & file people of Spain will put up with this. Even for them this is going to be beyond belief!

Let's hope not...they can't be dhimmi'fied already, can they?

Strange winds blow in Europe...

The world is being reshaped as we watch.

America is the anvil and islamofacism is the hammer.

What is being worked, are the weak and shapeless countries who crave anonimity and tolerance. Some will choose, some will reaffirm Western roots and others will succumb to the cancer if islam. When those weak countries have been consumed, the open battle for world dominance will commence. Let's not kid ourselves, that is ultimately where this conflict is heading, barring a sea-change in ME culture.

When countries like Spain turn on themsleves in self-flagellation, it emboldens the jihadis and convinces them of the 'nobleness' of thier cause. When Norway tolerates open hostility to its citizens from ME immigrants and refuses to respond for fear of being regarded as un-PC, they have forfeited victory. When france values short term profit over security for its citizens, they are rightly regarded as whores.

But the forging process is a strenghtening one, and anything that goes through it, is stronger for the experience. Or irretrievably misshapen.

/waxing metaphorical (always get this way after reading VDH)

Waiting for predictable phrases like "Thanks to Islam, science, art, and literature flourished in Spain while the rest of Europe was mired int he Dark Ages" to waft like the cloud from a fresh turdcake. . . .

#83 Arrr-- "Meaning that they'll assign the Imams, they'll assign what gets taught, and they can keep an eye on the Muslim population."

Just like France has done? The freaking police won't go into the muslim neighborhoods. Rapes of French women go unprosecuted because the French have lost the authority to police and prosecute. It's that way elsewhere in Europe where the muslims have established their beachheads.

You are indcredibly naive. You are part of the problem. You are the classic Dhimmi and I pray to God that you are not posting from the USA.

The Spics have submitted to Dhimmitude...

They need another Catholic Franco to come marching from the sea to take care of the rojo/socialists/bolshes. Probably need another civil war like 36-39', also.

Zappy is going to screw every Christian he can lay his hands on in Spain...Spanairds killed Indian people in the Western Hemisphere by the millions and their turn by RoP is at hand.

Sorry, but these people deserve what they voted for.

#99 cheweydog

yeah but did they have the free press like we do with someone like Dan Rather telling them whats going on in their world?

#98 Greg

Spanairds killed Indian people in the Western Hemisphere by the millions and their turn by RoP is at hand.

So the smallpox virus is Spanish? ;-)

Just being annoying.

G'nite all!

95

Si, correcto. ;-)
I was just emailing one of my spaniard friends, pretty much along the lines of what you just wrote, albeit I was trying to be sorta delicate about it.

We were writing about the 'bridge to islam' stuff. Basically I said 'if that's what you guys are gonna do, then be aware you're going it alone." Zappy wants to do an experiment in his people's blood.

This is what happens when you align yourself with the secularist, atheistic, anti-Christian, anti-Catholic Left on "social welfare" programs. You find that your "progressive allies" are against your beliefs and institutions.

In this country, we've had treasonous liberal swine like Archbishop Rembert Weakland form alliances with big spending socialists to attack Reagan and to attack his strong anti-communist nuclear program. Of course, we now know that Weakland was embezzling Church funds to fund his amoral homosexual trysts. This is the man who the United States Catholic Conference put in charge of domestic policy (and you guys want to know why my church continually f*** up on the Israeli-Palestinian issue?).

Franco, Somoza, Pinochet -- none perfect, but far preferable to the anti-Catholic leftist garbage that would be allowed to rise in it's place.

The Vatican and the national bishops better wake up and get their heads out of their asses. They are starting to resemble idiot rabbis who supported Hitler in 1932 because of his anti-inflation program.

I hate to write off the Spaniards. I don't want to give up that easily. I see Spain as another stepping-stone to the US. I guess it's wishful thinking on my part, but I'm still hoping that Europe will wake up and fight the moros.

And we must not let Kerry do this to us, either. We must vote and get everyone else out to the polls...except for the L3.

The Left does recognize Evil - for the American far Left (and quite a bit of the mainstream Left as well) Evil is personified by the Republicans. They see Republicans as the Devil incarnated. Don't mistake it for "rational hatred", it's pseudo-rational replacement for the psychological function of Evil and the Devil which they can't persue religiously.

The far Left also keeps seeing the Jew the same way their Christian ancestors did, with very few superficial modifications - the Jewish cabal, the Jewish Devil, may it be Israel, the Zionists, the neo-cons, is the real axis of Evil, he's the one pulling the strings.

Reliogious archetypes do play significant role here, mixed with true ideology and more mundane viewpoints.

The breaking of links with the Church I don't mind but it's just incredibly naive to think that state funding of mosques is going to result in more "understanding" of Islam.

Sadly, even after the Madrid train bombings, the priority of the Zapateristas is promoting the "understanding" of Islam rather than promoting the understanding of Spain on the part of Muslims.

This episode should serve as a warning to all those who think that Europe is just one large undifferentiated mass of appeasement-minded socialists. What's going on in Spain stands in stark contrast to what's happening in the Netherlands for example, where there is a movement afoot to require immigrants to learn Dutch and other tools of assimilation. Maybe that's doomed to failure as well (I tend to think not), but at least the priorities are straight.

Again I am stupid, but it seems that the Catholic chuch needs a leader that is a bit stronger and more dynamic than the current pope. He has not done much of anything lately, that I (a non catholic) can see. It seems to me that sitting mostly on your hands does not accomplish much.
Sorry if I offended anyone.

Spain's attitude (dhimmitude) has become a great disappointment. After they all gathered together after the pigs bombed the train, I thought they'd go after Islam throughout their entire country.

Sadly, it appears that they just want to hand Spain right over to them. This newly elected party is a disgrace. However, take a good look at them, study them for a minute, because I believe John Kerry suffers from the same lack of backbone these guys do.

All the more reason to re-elect "W"

SANTIAGO Y CIERRA ESPANA!!

#96 logger phd

"I know you are just being difficult..."

How about all the enslaved Indian peoples from the Caribbean to Mexico to Peru to satisfy Spanish thirst for gold, sugar, and slaves? Why do you think Africans were brought in? Because the Spanish killed by slave labor or disease most nay Indian they could find.

Smallpox was just ONE PART of the equation of the 90% population reduction from 1500-1800 in the Americas...

...and Islam will bring this home to Spain and Europe very soon...

#107 It's not sitting on one's hands. Unfortunately, John Paul II is old, infirm and not up to dealing with this. The Catholic Church does not simply switch popes. Once he passes, a younger & stronger bishop can be elected.

#107
Can he retire?
Excuse my ignorence...

#112 Stuck in California

I have never seen or heard of it. The job is part of the calling, and while the pope may be able to walk away from it, in reality it would never be considered. You're in for life.

Nihilistic Europeans, why don’t they just take some hemlock? It's a far less painful form of suicide than the one they are choosing.

One good thing. Just googled up Louisiana Republican Party and shot of an email for volunteering. You guys are right. So much is riding on this election. It's sKerry.

106BPP

The "breaking of links with the Church" in the Spain (or any other society) has deeper ramifications other than just 'liberating values'.
Since Western society is based on Judeo-Christian ideology, with its absolute definitions of Right and Wrong, Truth and Lie, Good and Evil etc., dissolution from these principles lead to moral ambiguity. As they say, if you don't stand for anything, you'll fall for anything.

The argument has been made many times about how the Left ignores facts when taking a position. This is because they have shunned the absloutes of religion and have no baseline Truth - it's all relative. From that position, it's easy to 'Lie' about someone if it serves the 'correct' Ends (as defined by them of course).

This position of maleable Truth severely weakens a societies ability to defend against an enemy who has more strongly held 'beliefs'. They are forced to admit that the enemies beliefs have equal value to your beliefs, while your enemy is under no such disadvantage. How then can you justify your superior position in defending yourself? You can't without all sorts of ideological contortions. Not the stuff of victory.

Not to get too long winded, once the moral stability that created your society is abandoned (and pilloried), all other 'sacred tenets' also fall. A weak and disassociated society is ripe for invasion by a ravenous cancer like islam.

there might be some good on this outcome. hopefully those on the left will wake up when they see spain go down the tubes real fast. think about it when christians in spain are treated as dihmmi's and other aspects of sharia are demanded the truth will be known and right in front of us even more so that it is now.

get ready to change the maps kids...

Instead of France, Spain, Germany, and Belgium

they will be referred to as:

Frogistan

Spanistan

Deutschistan

and Belgistan

can't wait to look at that new map...

#113 mack1490
could a suragot spokesman be appointed to make the Popes thoughts be carried out with more force?
I respect the Popes intellect but his health seems to stop the implementation of his will.

Again I am stupid, but it seems that the Catholic chuch needs a leader that is a bit stronger and more dynamic than the current pope. He has not done much of anything lately, that I (a non catholic) can see. It seems to me that sitting mostly on your hands does not accomplish much.

It wouldn't matter if you had the 1979-1988 Pope John Paul II who helped brind down communism and helped Solidarity stare down Brezhnev, IF you have spineless limpwrists like Rembert Weakland dictating social policy at the national level.

The Pope is old and not in good health. Having a more rigorous pope would help, but it's not a panacea. Not when you have garbage like Weakland and his ilk controlling the national bishop's conference and selling out Church values and instititions and Catholics like cheap whores in a redlight district.

Even a good man like Cardinal Law got felled by the beauracracy in the pedophile mess up in Boston. He didn't deserve what happened to him -- others did and they escaped unscathed.

I knew the Catholic Church was in trouble in 1968 when dad took me to a Saturday Mass and the priest blathered on about Vietnam blah blah blah. My dad took me home to his his mom's and we weren't in the house 5 seconds before he let loose with invectives against the crap that Vatican II let in.

#117 Don't count on it. The Kool Aid is too strong. What did it take for the left to recognize that Hitler was a threat? Churchill called it years before, but who listened?

#117 I don't, for a minute, think that this will open the eyes of the Left. They've had every opportunity to wise up, so I conclude that they're never going to get it. If your scenario happens, they'll still blame the victims.

What do the libs in our country need to ban immigration from majority Islamic countries?

Without getting nuked, is there anything that will unite the US to protect itself?

Does anyone see any hope of us winning while we are tied down by PC?

#119 stuck...

The spokesman thing has never worked for the Catholic Church. You need to get a feel for the internal politics (not too happy about it). It is more effective when the pope can take control, as when John Paul II took control & took on Communism. The Soviets were so threatened that they plotted his assasination.

A stonger pope could also step on some of these big mouth types w/in the Church. It seems that it slips away when the pope gets weak.

#110 Greg

Well, try not to be too gleeful about what you perceive to be Spain’s just desserts.

The one thing you forgot to mention in your diatribe is that centuries ago Spain may have planted, albeit brutally, the seed that may ultimately save the Christian/non-Mohammedan world. The Euro-pee-ons simply aren’t breeding in the numbers that are required to save their civilization. The same, however, cannot be said for Latin America. In the aggregate, Latin America is among the last bastions of Christianity in which the fertility rates are high enough to at least keep pace with the ameba-like reproduction of the Mohammedans.

Therefore, in bringing Christianity to the New World, the Spaniards created what may turn out to be the last enclave of Christendom with the manpower needed to repel the Mohammedans. If Latin Americans ultimately end up forming the backbone of the armies that will be needed to expunge the Islamists, as I think they will, than Spain should be thanked for at least making that possible.

Too bad the Spaniards themselves won't be around long enough to see it.

All I'm saying is that the world needs a religious leader to take off his shoe (like Kruchev (sp?) and pound the table and say THIS WRONG! and keep pounding until the world listens. The Pope sounds like the logical choice!

Actually - I submit this argument with some trepidation - my observations indicate that too close a connection with government can in the end kill a religion. Here in the USA, churches are incredibly more vibrant than they are in old Europe, but they must fund themselves entirely except for their tax exemptions. Another unique thing about America is that government funds do not go to any religiously-affiliated schools. In contrast, in Germany people routinely assign part of their taxes to go to the church of their choice - Lutheran or Catholic, yet church attendance generally is dismal. In England hardly anybody attends Chruch of England services either - since Henry VIII it's been the State Church. The Queen still appoints the bishops, and has to belong to it. Same in Holland, where the Queen has to be Dutch Reformed - and that church is going down the tubes, too.

Don't forget, when government funds a church there will be strings attached. It's entirely conceivable that if the Spanish government does fund Muslim instruction in the schools, a more moderate Muslim may be the end product. Maybe an agnostic, indifferent Muslim, but that also a less dangerous Muslim.

Just a thought.

#121 mac1490 9/24/2004 09:07PM PST

my communication skills suck ok what i meant was looking at the run up to ww2. if FDR would have sent troops to england and attacked japan. while chamberlain was saying peace in our time, there would have been a much different reaction to mobilizing us to war. ive read a lot on the lead up to ww2 and pearl harbor was the last of many straws. in fact we watched facism run rampant through the spanish civil war, we watched italy waste its army in north africa. it took time but the sleeping giant finally woke up. i thought 9/11 would have done it but we hit the snooze button. what i want to know is what will finally wake us up. perhaps the islamisification of a western country through multi culture pc BS will

127Wimbo

Exactly right. But what the Left is attempting/doing is to remove all religious underpinnings from society. I suspect that they are fine with the trappings of religions, as long as no-one really believes all that stuff.
Government as religion is, well, islamofascism.

OT: American Muslim explains how Islamists have hijacked the religion. This time there is some reasoning behind it. Comments?

Nobody understands the threat of this dark ideology more than the Muslims. Muslims have been a victim of this religious terrorism since immediately after the death of their prophet. The pagans of Quresh of Mecca, when failed to stop the Prophet Muhammad from spreading the word of God, decided to join him with an aim to distort his mission. The Qureshi pagans became Muslims, not because they believed in Islam but just to corrupt it from within. These "Muslims" were the first Islamist terrorists who introduced religious terrorism by murdering the family of the prophet to impose their version of Khilafah.

Khilafah used the state machinery to manipulate the interpretations of the holy book and fabricate Hadith. They used these misinterpretations and fabrications to justify beheadings, murders, rape, loot and plunder to establish an Islamist empire that they want to revive today. They used the state sponsored institutions and narrators of hadith to change the very face of Islam. They succeeded and today what we recognize as Islamist terrorism is the product of this corruption.

Wahhabis represent the earlier Islamist terrorists who established the tradition of anti-Semitism and totalitarianism. Familiar with the nature of Salafi ideology, Muslims know that Saudi sponsored ideology cannot allow the United States of America to come in its way of reviving the Islamist Khilafah. Muslims understand the real nature of Islamist terrorism but they are helpless. Their politics is controlled by Wahhabi money and their sociology is run by a Wahhabi controlled mosque. Their only hope of deliverance is the United States of America.

I've never heard of the Qureshi pagans or Khilafah.

#127 Sounds like you're saying, if you feed it, it won't bite you.

Religions can be highly resistent to government control if they want. Certainly their is more willpower within religion than the beuracracy of government. When push comes to shove, who will blink?

But in the case of the islamassholes, don't we fight fire with fire? Religion against Religion? The whole religions are quiet except the Muslims...WHY?

This is more than a mere distancing from the Catholic Church. The other and more important, component is and embracing of Islam. Many of the self-styled "socialist democracies" in Europe have gone down this path, at least to some extent. France, Germany, and others. Spain is just the latest, and they are the first ones to affirmatively boot the Catholics in the process.

Why? What on earth do the socialists find reassuring in Islam? What's the point?

The Islamic fundamentalists ultimately want nothing less than Islamic theocracy. That is their objective. Why are the Spanish socialists so blind?

And that's one reason why, among other reasons, that historically there has been even greater antipathy between Marxism and Islam than exists between western capitalism and Islam. They hate us. But they hate communism more.

It is projected that France will be an Islamic state before long. Spain, which has had this experience before, giving rise to the crusades, is flirting with it again.

It's just plainly and inexplicably weird. I don't get it, as you can see.

#97 Stop Hillary

"Just like France has done? The freaking police won't go into the muslim neighborhoods. Rapes of French women go unprosecuted because the French have lost the authority to police and prosecute. It's that way elsewhere in Europe where the muslims have established their beachheads.

You are indcredibly naive. You are part of the problem. You are the classic Dhimmi and I pray to God that you are not posting from the USA."

France has only attempted it, and they've given it a half-assed attempt. Remember, Europe is not monolothic. If there's one thing I can say about Spain that's positive, it's that they get shit done. If Spain intends on policing their Muslim population, I honestly think they'll stick to it and take it seriously.

And what you describe as France sounds more like Norway and Sweden. The Swedes and the Norwegians are more likely to bend over backwards. Remember, France has the fortitude to enforce the hijab ban, and when the time comes France may very well have what it takes to reign in the threat.

Honestly, I think that everyone has a breaking point, even deluded LLL socialists. Human nature is not to react until you're knee-deep in shit, and a Europe backed into a corner will find itself a very formidable force. These are a people who survived imperialism, facism, and communism (albeit with America's help), so I think they will survive Islamism. Once Europe's Muslim problem gets to a certain point, I think they WILL react, and do it decisively. Actually, I think Europe could handle such a problem better than America could, if shit came to shove.

Finally, I think LGFers are (rightly) afraid of Islam to the point where they overamplify the threat. 55% of Muslims in France supported the hijab ban, and probably 80% of them are moderates, but are too scared to say anything.

Yes, I am posting from America, and yes I despise the Islamists as much as anyone else here does. But I don't let myself get hysterical over it. If the time ever comes I have more than enough firepower to distribute among fellow Americans, as well as myself. And unlike Europe I have faith that most American Muslims will have assimilated within three generations.

Is Khilafeh a variant of caliph?

#127 Wimbo, using secular socialism, Spain will be about as successful in controlling Islam as a firefighter trying to control a forest fire by dropping gasoline out of a helicopter.

#128 Hitler could have been stopped before WWII (Munich). The British & French had the military superiority. They allowed the Nazi's to build their war machine to the point where they could not stop them. And, the Frogs felt secure behind the Maginot Line.

FDR may not have had to deal w/ it, if Europe understood the threat & took action.

#130 Beagle 9/24/2004 09:26PM PST

allways blaming others. at least it wasnt a jewish neocon conspiracy. the quarash [sp] where the pagans that mohammed conquered when he took mecca. they worshipped allah and his two sister gods

#137 canadianwilderness

A secular socialist China was able to suppress 20 million Muslims for half a century. A secular socialist USSR was able to suppress 20% of its own population.

Bring on the Chinese!

#141 Arr - China & the USSR were able to suppress opposition, dissention & ideas w/ iron fists. Do you think Spain is ready to employ those methods, especially considering their recent history?

#141 Arrr, secular socialism is not the same as an atheist communist dictatorship. Also a notable difference, Communist China and the USSR were not allowing hordes of Islamfascists into their countries.

Hopefully, one of the suicide-belt-wearing freaks he has used to get into office will blow his ass up soon. How did they manage to go from someone with his head on straight to this gender-confused monkey-butt?

If not, maybe the Catholics will off him...maybe the Knights Templar?

#143 mac1490

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I believe Spain is entirely capable of responding with iron fists. I know we at LGF will accuse the Spanish of weakness because of their choice to withdraw troops, but I think their decision was motivated more by their own ideology than by intimidation.

If there's one thing the Spanish take seriously, it's their culture and way of life.

#146 Arr

I understand. But, the defense of their culture begins with turning back the recent proposal, not funding Islam and hoping that it does not grow out of their control. If it does become radicalized, I suspect that you will not see the same tactics as employed by totalitarian regimes.

#144 canadianwilderness

Similar enough. The ideology that drives it is powerful, especially when mixed with Spanish tenacity.

And there are plenty of Islamofacists embedded in Russia and China. The USSR is 20% Muslim.

China, however, has a strict no-Wahhabi policy. Muslims sneak into China all the time, but woe betide the Islamist who makes himself known on Chinese soil. China has maintained strict control and observation of its Muslim population since 1949, and have effectively refereed what kind of Islam is allowed within its borders (as will Spain). China changes its Islam on the drop of a hat. Eight years ago China re-legalized the hijab, after being banned for over thirty years, and fifteen years ago, China re-allowed the public worship of Islam.

#147 mac1490

I don't think they will allow Islam to become radicalized like the French did in the first place, precisely because they will be funding and keeping a strict eye on their own Mosques and banning all other Mosques and Imams. A plan this ambitious is usually backed up with force.

There are few enough radicals already to crack down on.

#127 Wimbo wrote:

Don't forget, when government funds a church there will be strings attached. It's entirely conceivable that if the Spanish government does fund Muslim instruction in the schools, a more moderate Muslim may be the end product. Maybe an agnostic, indifferent Muslim, but that also a less dangerous Muslim.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but your argument is inherently flawed. You are assuming that government largess can “take the bite”, so to speak, out of Islam. If anything, state funding would have the exact opposite effect. By providing state funding to their Mosques, the government would only be validating & buttressing the current beliefs & maniacal creeds adhered to at these Mosques.

If you’ve ever read the Koran, then you’d know that its dictates cannot be compromised in such a way as to make the Koran subservient to man-made laws. That’s essentially why your “strings attached” approached would fail miserably, and quite possibly contribute to creating a monster that the host nation cannot contain.

Try as you will, but no amount of pie-in-sky incentives can change the nature of the Koran. A person either submits to it and is considered a “Muslim”, or they do not and are considered infidels or apostates…even those who are born Muslims. It’s an uncompromising faith. Therefore, your assertion that “agnostic” or “indifferent” Muslims can be created is patently ridiculous, no offense. Those who are agnostic or indifferent to the “teachings” (more like ravings) of the Koran are not regarded as Muslims by other Muslims, especially to those who follow the Wahabbi creed, which is the dominant creed now in places like Spain, UK, France, etc.

#135 Arr

"And what you describe as France sounds more like Norway and Sweden. The Swedes and the Norwegians are more likely to bend over backwards. "

Cut the Norwegians some slack. At least they have supported us in Iraq.

AUSSIES TAKE NOTE---
ISLAM CONVERTS= DAVID HICKS -JACK ROCHE & TONY( the mouth) MUNDINE
Mark Latham very dangerous -Gough Whitlam's creature- on radical left wing unions leash -he has policies that you will not hear spruiked until he has been elected and we will be very unhappy little vegemites then--it won't be vegemite he'll smear us with-- Socialists in every State and FEDERAL- danger, danger danger don't say you are not well warned .
State Labour in Victoria , $600 000 000 to spent on fast train to Steve Bracks home town to save 10 minutes and refuse to fund extra staff in hospitals and schools- employs pals to sit on more committees to set up more committees to issue useless reports and no one reads or takes note of
All socialists do is sit on the gravy train with noses in the trough whilst the country bleeds.

NOTE just changed to Fire fox browser from IE - amazing- this site soooh slow before- much smoother and no hiccoughs

Interesting note, Chinese Mosques were starting to allow female Imans. Some Wahhabi scumbags started to protest. They were never heard from again. To this day, China has over 90% of the world's female Imams, the rest of them located in Southeast Asia and Indonesia.

#153 Arr

The Chinese have demonstrated their readiness, willingness and ableness to use the force necessary to suppress any threat. If the female Imans got porky, they would be made to disappear too.

Have today's socialists in Spain demonstrated this type of will, or are they looking to compromise? My bet is that they will lack the same resolve.

#154 mac1490

No, I don't think they will ever have the same resolve as China. But it will be enough.

Maybe I'm too much of an optimist.

What you vote is what you get...

Spanish proved themselves to be a country of idiots... let them enjoy the status and reap its rewards.

Zapatero is simultaneously planning to vastly increase state funding for Islam

Hey, al Queda gave him the electoral victory, Zapatero's merely returning the favor.

wait wait wait!!! What Zapatero is doing is GOOD!

God willing [You know, not THAT one]...God willing the Zapatero government will display exactly what a socialist government desires...the yearning to decapitate the Christian church while enabling any OTHER social order to insure the Catholic church does not return. Who knew that women's rights and gay rights were so in sync with current Islamic values. Well, really, they're not. But if those sensitive little lefties can stick it to the Pope and his folks for those nasty things 500 years ago, if we can bring it all down, its worth it. After all, very recent history shows that those christians will cut your head off, while those generous muslims will relocate thousands of underpriviledged people from around the world to a cozy subdivision in Maine and North Carolina.

Dear Allah, I am sorry for going out drinking with my friends only to return late at night to post to LGF. It all "angries" up the blood

What's the answer to 90% of the questions on Earth?

Money.

Stop buying their stuff.

Without money, the host dies, and then the parasite, (that would be the Islamists) dies.

I know that it is harsh to strangle the Spanish economy, but there is no other treatment for gangrene.

Please let George W Bush win the second term.
We don't need Liberal or Leftist FREAKS just now.

The Spanish Government, who appeased the islamic butchers, seems to have lost their place in civilisation.
Expulsion of all muslims from Spain is surely the most realistic solution to that countries' problems.
There is no place for islam in europe.

# 127 Wimbo

"too close a connection with government can in the end kill a religion." The statement in whole is true, yet the issue is somewhat complex.

1. Europe is overwhelmingly secular because it is socialist (leftist, aka Dukakis, Mondale, Kennedy, John Jane Kerry). Socialism does not tolerate religion, whether its Christianity, or Islam, or Buddhism, etc).

For example France's socialist system, regardless of whether so called conservatives are in power, made France extremely secular. For example, Sa-damn (sic) Hussein's Socialist Baath party did not tolerate Islam.

2. THe Bible clearly states that as time marches along more and more people will reject Christ. Christ repeatedly stated that this generation is a "perverse" generation, echoing the similar warnings in the Old Testament.

God has left Europe, except few pockets of Eastern Europe (a small population in the Baltics, Ukraine, Russia) and fewer pockets in the Central Europe (The Czech Republic, Poland, etc).

" if the Spanish government does fund Muslim instruction in the schools, a more moderate Muslim may be the end product. Maybe an agnostic, indifferent Muslim, but that also a less dangerous Muslim.

1. It is merely a speculation without any basis in fact. I wish someone will advise us if such an experiment has been conducted in Europe where a goverment funds Islam.

2. Its important to understand that Islam is not only a religion. It is also a way of life.

It is not only a theology, but also a sociology. Unlike Christianity in general, and Roman Catholic faith specifically, Islam regulates the law (Sharia), the economy (for example banking system), the dress code. (headscarfs). Catholicism has no say in the Spanish civil or criminal code (for example death penalty is not applied in Spain), or how much interest the banks or credit card companies can charge, or how to dress to government school.

Therefore, there is an inherent conflict between the Spanish way of life (society, culture, human relationships, economy) and Islam.

In other words, this is not only a conflict between Christianity (theology) and Islam (theology).

It is also a conflict between Spain's social and cultural framework on one hand and Islam's social and cultural framework (not a theology) on the other.

Spain's Socialist PM failed to recognize or accept the reality that his red donkey (Socialists) will have to resolve the inherently uncompromising conflict between the green dragon (Islam).

Well, I know there are two sides (at least) to every argument. My point was simply that too much government involvement in religion - and especially government funding of religion - eventually seems to take the stuffing out of that religion. There are plenty of examples; I cited only a few. Hence my hypothesis - that's all it is - that in the end Spanish government funding of mosques could have a tempering influence. After all, do you suppose the Spanish government would set no conditions to its funding? That would odd for any government; giving money means you can meddle.

Now, some dispute that such a thing is pottible with Islam, and in the short run they may well be right. But Islam has not always been practiced in the uncompromising way it is now. (Neither has Christianity, for that matter; at one time it was as much a way of life as Islam is now; see, for instance, the medieval church's prohibition on charging interest).

In "An Outline of History", H.G. Wells tells the story of Frederick II, emperor of the Holy Roman Empire (which was neither very Holy nor Roman; it was an odd combination of German lands and Sicily.) Anyway, Frederick had been ordered by the Pope to go on a crusade to the Middle East, but Frederick, having been brought up in Sicily (which had heavy moorish influence in those days) had decided no religion was worth that kind of effort, so he kept blowing off the Pope - who finally excommunicated him. This did not dismay Frederick personally but it was bad P.R., so he finally went. But instead of slaughtering the Muslims he stopped for a state visit in Egypt (he was a linguist who spoke Arabic fluently), and explained his dilemma to the bemused sultan, who seems to have shared some of Frederick's attitudes about religion himself. The upshot was that the Sultan granted Frederick some of the Holy Land including the Gaza strip and the temple mount in Jerusalem, and concluded a commercial treaty advantageous to both sides. It was a win-win situation: the Sultan did not have to bother with the expense and disruption of war, and Frederick was able to go home claiming great advances for Christianity.

The headline should read "Spanish Socialists capitulate o Islamofascists."

First, Spanish Socialists/Leftists (aka John Jane Kerry's ideological comrades) withdrer Spain's troops from the battlefield. Before PC was vogue, it was called surrender and/or treason.

Second Spain's Socialists/Leftists are using the taxpayers' money to fund Islam, while withholding funds from the Catholic church. We used to call it stealing from Peter to give to Muhammed (oohhh...I meant to say Paul).

Third, to be true to his calling and consistent with his ideals, Zapatero must immediately open an Al-Qaida representative office in Madrid, in order to start building an "alliance" between civilizations. (Is cutting people's throats like sheep part of the civilation?)

I christen and name such alliance as the "Unholy alliance of Socialist-Islamofascism."

# 163 Wimbo.

Your argument that the state funding will corrupt any enterprise (social, economic, spiritual) has basis in reason and fact. True, when government gets involved, it sets conditions which eventually corrupt the process and the receiving entity.

However, there is no basis in fact, that

(a) a European government's funding of Islam will produce such a result;

(b) such experiment would achieve the same result during the bloody war between 2 social/theological orders - West/Christianity and Islam.

As a result, it is prudent not to engage in such an experiment. But the socialist/left (aka John Jane Kerry) mindset of "let us all love each other and live in peace" wishes/desires/dreams that with government funding there will be peace.

Seneca once said, "if you want peace, prepare for war"

#130 Beagle
Thanks for the link. I am a real muslim (submitter to G_d alone) and not the crap that was invented after the death of Muhammad.

I know this is a majority anti-Islam/pro-Jewish site but I love it for the info it contains. Also, I'm doing research on on Israel via Quran. From my current readings, Quran insists that Israel should be secure in her borders. Not really sure, until I check out all related Quranic verses.

No matter what the out come, I do support Israel's right to exists. Dumb-ass arabs don't realize that they can increase their in income 1000% by giving away 1% of their land.

I'm not trying to kiss up to you Yahud's or trying to get money from you. ROFL!

I really want to only please G-d alone.

too bad that some of you have a problem with a country deciding to stop invading another country and instead deciding that learning something about other religions is beneficial to us all. the seperation of church and state is fundamental to civil rights and the catholics have had it good over there and they'll certainly be alright in the future. besides, its none of our business anyway what they do with their country. someone prove me wrong.

but I left for "work" (I get paid in beer :-)

If that were true, you should be breaking the Iron Fist rule right now. ;-)

Iron Fist,

Drink! ;-)

Wanta know Kerry's problem?

No substance.

At first glance ya think: "Check it out, he's rolling one up."

Then on closer inspection, you realize, nope it's just a dork wearing floods building a model.

Iron Fist,

And has he changed in 30 years?

Nope.

I'm John Kerry, and I'm reporting for duty.

Iron Fist, I'm with ya brother, I could use some sack time myself. Rest well.

I live in Spain, although I am an American. I talk to my neighbors about Zapatero and what he has planned and they say "oh that will never happen, the people would never let it happen. But the thing is...Who are these people they are referring to? You see many of my neighbors have NEVER been in the NEXT town which is only a 10 minute drive!! They are in their own world and are content not to venture out. They are very much like the frog in the pot, slowly being brought to a boil and never even realizing it.

The "people" will let it happen. Because the "people" have an agenda...and these little towns that dot across Spain will be asleep when it happens I'm afraid. Very sad indeed.

It sux to be Spanish right now. How embarrassing for them!

Further enraging conservatives, the government has drawn up plans to finance the teaching of Islam in state-run schools and to give funds to mosques on the grounds that it will create greater understanding of the country’s one million Muslims.

Shame on him he should fund sites and schools that promotes hatred and Kill-them-all attitude .
It is a good way to avoid minorities alienation!!!

Let's see...

Spanish Inquisition under new management...

How long until the Spanish are lining up for their raisins?

Almost off the record, the Roman Catholic Church outside the US is only slightly better than terroristic Islamics in that it doesn't endorse war, acts of terror, or suicide. The official stance of the Catholic Church, though, outside the US is not just to 'convert the lost'. It has a lot to do with killing the infidel, heretic, etc. (Hearing a priest speak in US is one thing, hearing the pope in Mexico or some other non-US country is scarey for anyone not Roman Catholic.) Since the Roman Catholic Church is big on assimilation where it meets a religous opponent it cannot overcome directly, we will soon be seeing attempts by Islam and RCC to assimilate each other. (All the pope would have to do is proclaim Muhammad, though claims about the pope himself are rather heretical to Islam, so don't know on that.) I'm not about to pick a winner on that one, but I do stronly lean in favor of the Islamics winning with the removal of the office of pope, or replacing with a Cleric/Cleric title.

#1 jake

Are all socialists inherently self-haters? Michael Moore hates America, Noam Chomsky hates America

No, killing 1000+ soldiers in Iraq and increasing anti-Us sentiments aroung the globe is self-hating.

and Israel,

Noam Chomsky is not israeli, to be self hater.

and now we find how much Zapatero and his cronies hate their own country's heritage and traditions.

Part of Spain's culture and Heritage is Isalmic.

If you want an advance view of John Kerry's more sensitive WOT here it is.

I'm convinced that Kerry is being honest (with himself) when he talks about building an international coalition to "win" the WOT. He intends to replace our allies who carry guns (Britian, Australia) with allies of greater "understanding" and "sensitivity" such as socialist Spain and France and whoever else he and Kofi can cobble together to bridge the gap between arrogant America and the Arab/Muslim world.

Kerry has no problem calling Allawi an incompetent and bumbling liar because Kerry thinks Allawi irrelevant. The future of Iraq will be determined by Syria and Iran. This is Kerry's good-faith gift to Islamism for which he expects to receive in return some public promise from the ROP to proceed with their program peacefully. Mr. Superior Intellect ("I will fight a smarter WOT") figures he will outsmart the mullahs down the line. Appeasement during the 30s bulit the Greater German Reich, and appeasement now will build the Greater Islamic Caliphate. A contrasting historical note is that the anti-fascist coaltion of WWII (USA, Britian, Russia) is back together.

Spain is a fucked up country. That tiny little rock has 2 seperatist movements - one pro-EU, one anti-EU. They are burning down Chinease owned stores as fast as the French burn down American owned businesses in France. They send out warships over an even tinier rock in the Atlantic (Gibralter), but bail on us in Iraq.

Worthless little shithole country. F-em.

#185

Yeah I remember little "parsely" Island...what a laughing stock they were.

Wow, that numb-nut is about a week away from hiring Che...

cue distant sound of drums

If you'd like to read the actual texts of the Pope's speeches, rather than just take JackofTrade's word for it - check out the Vatican's web site. They're all there, though not all are translated into English.

#85 Ojoe
"I agree, the Left has a stupid view that man is naturally good. I grew up Catholic with the idea drummed into me that man is naturaly bad. I don't think that is true either. But I can sure see these days that the idea that man is naturally good has Very Worse consequences than the idea that man is naturally bad."

Your latter point is a good one, but the Church teaches that Man(kind) is not naturally evil. Man was created good - but now has a fallen human nature due to Original Sin. That, added to free will, makes him capable of evil. The idea that Man is totally depraved is Calvin's.
See paragraphs 374 and following of the Catechism for a better explanation.

WoW!

Sorry if I'm going to be repeating what anyone has said before... BUT is this what the voters expected to happen?

Truly shocking.

Instaed of Allende's Communism with a human face, Zapataro is promising Islamic-Socialism with a human face.

Madrid 3/11 needs to be immortalized like Guernica has been.

From that article on anti-clericalism[re:Opus Dei] I can imagine Zapataro sticking a knife in the back of the Catholic Church right between the shoulder blades while behind Zapataro is a mullah with an even bigger knife upraised.

Hope and pray Spain's people can save themsevles from the horror and evil Zapataro is trying to force on them.

#23 Q
Google's argument that they are only blocking search results that would be inaccessible to the Chinese because of goverment blocking makes some sense. I wish, however, that they would simply put those blocked hits on a separate list so that people could at least see the titles. Also, Google maintains a cached copy of pages that you can pull up, and this has assisted me when I wanted to get information from a website that was temporarily down or that had been pulled. Since Google's servers aren't blocked from China, I'd think they could get to the cached version, but maybe I'm wrong here.

#184 Warthog, and others.

To say that John Kerry will go the way of Spain is nothing short of ridiculous. Kerry is as committed to finishing the job in Iraq as Bush is. I believe he's more committed to the War on Terror.

That will shock some of you I'm sure, but I believe that this war in Iraq has been an enormous red herring for us. It's caused us to:
1) Spend an enormous amount of money that could have been put to better use.
2) Spill the blood of our heroes. Again I argue that the sacrifice could have been more benficial in other arenas, like Tora Bora.
3) Lose focus on the global war on Al-Qaeda & terrorism in general.
4) Lose the enormous good will of the world, even from countries who typically do not support the US, following 9/11. The WoT is a global effort, we can't hunt the terrorists down and kill them if we can't find them, and that takes allies.
5) Tie up our troops such that it is difficult to credibly threaten or even imply the possible use of force during negotiations with North Korea and Iran.
6) Create one of the best possible recruiting campaigns for Islamic terror.

I'd like to see the quote where Kerry called Allawi and incompetent and bumbling liar. All I've heard is that (paraphrasing here) the President and the Prime Minister are obviously trying to put a postive face on Iraq, and that what Allawi is saying now contradicts what he said a few days ago, that terrorists were pouring through Iraq's borders.

I agree that more finess could have been shown here. Allawi admitted difficulties in his speech, and Kerry could have simply tied that in with greater detail of what those difficulties are to make his point, but its still a far cry from "incompetent and bumbling liar"

Oh, and unfortunately for the US, there is a good chance that Allawi will be irrelevant when Iraq has free and fair elections, and that Iran will exert massive influence in Iraq in the coming decade. This does not bode well for us, and has a decent possibility of occuring regardless of who we elect in November.

Spain astonishes me. I will be watching their society closely to see where this goes. I'm still not over them letting terrorists throw their election. They might as well walk around with "kick me" signs.

Bottom line

People get the government they deserve.

jake: Are all socialists inherently self-haters?

They're not self-haters - they love themselves. They just hate everyone else. They're narcissists who believe that they're better than everybody else in their society.

test

Spain legalized marijuana in the 1980's.

Maybe there are long term effects on the ability to reason.

Or, maybe they'd just rather eat another whole bag of Dorito's than deal with Islamo-Fascism.

#192 lance armpit

1) Spend an enormous amount of money that could have been put to better use.

Like throwing it into the health care and education black hole.

2) Spill the blood of our heroes. Again I argue that the sacrifice could have been more benficial in other arenas, like Tora Bora.

The lefties know the name of one battle and then they are instant experts. Thankfully the place was easy to remember.

3) Lose focus on the global war on Al-Qaeda & terrorism in general.

Like all the jihadis are located in one place. I know NUKE MECCA. How's that for focus.

4) Lose the enormous good will of the world

Maybe the good will of the world should focus on Darfur?

5) Tie up our troops such that

You have no idea what you are talking about.

6) Create one of the best possible recruiting campaigns for Islamic terror.

911, embassey bombings were much better recruiting tools. Showing victories for your side is ALWAYS a better recruiting tool fool

Bet there's alot of "buyers remorse in Spain now... Assasination of this socialist piece of $hit will do no good, it will only create a backlash against conservatives, who will of course be blamed. Another Reichstag fire.

European socialists have always been very radical and anti-Christian. Even in the 1920's they were agitating for gay rights, abortion etc, militant secularization etc. This is one reason, i believe why german Conservatives and centrists were able to hold their noses and convince themselves that an alliance with Hitler might be the only way to stem the socialist tide. ("Don't worry, we can tame Hitler...Once he has the responsibility of power, he will either moderate, or fall" How wrong they were.) These radicals mean to turn western society into one of effeminate girlie men.

Bear in mind that Zappy does not have a majority in the Spanish parliament, and the socialists have only a handful of seats more than the Conservatives. An early election and early exit for the "Kerry Preview" may be in the cards.

What a slap inte face to the mfamilies and memories of those who were slaughtered by the terrorist (See THAT Reuters?) cowards. Zappy almost justifies an invasion to get rid of him. Remember what president Bush said @ Sept 21 2001 "You are either with us or against us in this war." Zappy is not neutral. he is openly aiding and abetting those who did 9/11 and 3/11. When he is finally ousted from power, the new regime should put him on trial for treason.

Everything he has done since he came to power has been a middle finger to everything western Civilization once stood for. Every pronouncement is an assault on what brought unprecedented freedom. Yes, even-especially- for women.
The modern femi-nazi movement seeks to enslave women again.

Though I am Catholic, I believe strongly that NO church or religion should receive state funding of any kind. Nor should anyb political party . It is criminal to forcibly tax someone and then turn his money over to the financing of that whith which he disagrees.
Much worse is the one who finances an enemy that has directly attacked his won country. That is not only an assault on the taxpayer, but an open act of treason.

The EU seems to be ery worried about giving Islamic Turkey full membership in that rotten attempt at reviving the Roman empire (new capital Berlin or Paris) , but I don't hear any concern about Zappy's turning Spain into a trojan horse on the continent itself.

No. 189 Our Gal Sal- thanks forthe tip on the Catechisim, my brother Ingvar has a copy i'll check it out. Too bad the Catholic Church has temporarily damaged its ability to speak out and be listened to widely in this country due to nasty sex scandals.

Ray W.

It wont take 10 years to become Spain. It begins on Nov. 3d if Hanoi John and Tehran Ter-ay-za move into 1600.

Ojoe, Tell me... Has the Evangelical churches lost their right to speak out because of Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker and Paul Crouch etc?

A few evil priests do not diminish the voices of Sanity in the RCC.

#197 Furious J  

Spain legalized marijuana in the 1980's.

Oh really?

Foreign & Commonwealth Office Travel Advice

Still Current at: 25 September 2004
Updated: 3 September 2004

In Spain, the possession of all recreational drugs is illegal. The authorities take the matter of drugs very seriously and the possession of even small quantities can lead to imprisonment. You should not therefore become involved with drugs of any kind.

Legalizingpot seems to be a high priority of all modern liberal socialist regimes. Canada will do so very soon. Legoislation is in the works.

The governing Liberal party has opponents of legalization of pot in its ranks, but the elites who control it will ally themselves with the marxists of the New Democratic paryy and Bloc Quebecois to get it through.

Zappy can be counted on to put that, along with sodomite marriage at the top of the agenda, and whistle past the graveyard over terrorism, which all leftists believe can be solved by turning against the root cause of it: The United States.

They may have bought themselves time , but only in the sense of a front that has been neutralized and pacified so that attention can be diverted to their main goal. Once tha main goal is reached, the terrorists will come back to mop up.

The action in the philippines, though will have a much quicker payback. Trust me, Abu Sayyaf and the Moro Liberation Front , not to mention the Marxist NPA have taken note and have seen how easy it is to get concessions from President GMA, who many believe stole the election in Marcos style anyway.

I stand by what I said, except that I should have used "decriminalized" instead of legalized. Spain decriminalized the use of drugs in 1983 under the socialist government of Felipe Gonzales.

Besides, I was making a joke. Lighten up.

#205 Furious J

The UK has also decriminalised and de-classified cannabis, but Blair supports Bush so that's cool.

ha-ha-ha...

BTW, it was the socialist government of Felipe Gonzalez that first recognised the State of Israel.

Personally I am not the least bit surprised this is happening. I believe that we are seeing the beginning of the end times and I fully expect to see Christians persecuted everywhere in the world. Islam is merely Lucifers best means to bring that about at this point in time.

PBsi,

Islam dould not do it alone: Islam in concert with globalist liberals is the recipe for disaster.

Very soon, and subject to Bush winning in November, The USA and possibly Poland and the Philippines, may be the only places for christians to live their faith freely without serious persecution.

If memory serves correctly, socialist fellow traveller and arch-appeaser Shimon Peres was PM of Israel at that time.

#198 jrdroll

I nearly didn't respond to your post at all, and I'm still only going to respond to the bits where you've made even a minimal effort to offer a legitimate counterpoint.

Like throwing it into the health care and education black hole.

I was actually referring to things like installing gamma and neutron radiation detectors in our ports, securing porous borders, investing heavily in the intelligence community - especially in good old fasioned field agents, general police force, disaster response, anti-terrorist units, etc.

But since you mention it, I don't consider health care or education to be black holes. If you don't recognize the benefits of good health, then I'm not sure what I can say. I do not support a system of socialized medicine because I believe that the quality is poor, but undoubtedly our health care is in dire need of change. What I think those changes should be is a topic for another day.

Education is what keeps us ahead of the world. When Americans become less competent than the Indians/Chinese/Europeans, we will lose our economic advantage. Our economic strength translates directly into increased security, stronger military, and more leverage in diplomatic negotiations. It also goes far towards reducing domestic crime, and is well worth the investment. I haven't even touched down on the benefits of US research.

All the same, I wasn't referring to either of those.

Maybe the good will of the world should focus on Darfur?

I've already expressed my feelings on Darfur at this post:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

911, embassey bombings were much better recruiting tools. Showing victories for your side is ALWAYS a better recruiting tool fool

While victories for Al-Qaeda (like the one in Spain and other nations that have buckled to hostage takers) will undoubtedly boost their morale and help their recruiting efforts, that does not change the fact that anything that incites the anger of arabs/muslims in general toward the United States will also boost their recruiting. I would argue that it would boost recruiting even more dramtically, but this is mere opinion on my part and I have no facts or statistics to back it with, nor am I going to spend any time looking for them.

Incidents like Abu Graibe, accidental killings of arab reporters, the war in Iraq in general, etc. are exactly the things that these Imams stand up and scream about when they are trying to make young muslims hate us enough to strap themselves into an explosive harness.

I am not advocating appeasement. I am not saying that we should never do anything that would offend arabs/muslims. I'm not saying that we should allow them to hide behind schools and mosques and baby-milk factories. I am saying that there are two wars here:

The first war is to capture or kill the men who want to hurt us.

The second war is alter arab perception of Americans so that there isn't an endless supply of those men.

We must win both.

Spain will now reap what it has sown.

Eventually Spain with carry the MARK OF THE BEAST on their souls. One day in the distant future, probably by 2030, America will have to come to the rescue of Eurabia.

Once Spain squashes Christianity, instead of preaching it to these Islamist's, they will be history; that is Islamic History repeating itself against a weak country.

In 2030, ... America will have to come to the rescue of Eurabia.

Only if there is something in it for us, otherwise, let 'em eat halal.

and Plaza Mayor will become the central "loyalty enforcement complex" as the streets run with the blood of the beheaded.

When will people realize that the only choice available will be say the Shahada, or CHOP!

#27 Paco from Sefarad - Opus Dei is political fossile, but your leftist source might not be very convincing here on LGF. The best comparison you can make to explain the political role of Opus Dei in Europe to an average American is Pat Buchanan. How would the US vote if Kerry was running against Buchanan?

I think Zapateros doublestandard on religions now is the greater threat against secularism than the empty shell of past theocracy that is called the Catholic church. How can Spain be so happy over getting rid of the same-old-old that it seems to have forgotten why it wanted to get rid of it? Probably it is the colonial hangover that makes it place a default benefit of the doubt on anything anti-Western, even a present theocracy which would be much worse than the same-old-old we're tired of.

I think government funding of Islam is a suicidal idea that cannot persuade the mosques to abstain from taking terrorist money. Zapatero seems to think he could bribe away the unwanted strains of Islam such as if he was the only one to offer bribes and holier-than-thou rhetorics. For each euro he will give to some Spanish Imam, this mosque will be paid two euros from some nutty Sheik's oil revenues. If all religious bodies in Europe had to raise their own money, the states could deal with this problem with much greater transparence and scrutiny.

I can't believe I forgot list this under better things to spend 200billion on:

We also need to put more money into securing the loose nuclear material in Russia, a project that has had its funding cut under President Bush, and one that gives me great concern. Much greater concern than Saddam's nuclear ambitions, which were little more than a wish upon a star.

#205 FuriousJ - The link between the war on terror and drug prohibition:

The last Afghanistan conference here in Berlin decided that only a "security belt" around the country could stop the financing of terrorism from the black markets of drug trade. That means multilateral diplomacy with the neighbors. But building the stability of Afghanistan on the cooperation of Iran is an obstacle to the regime change there. And the greatest joke of all is that this policy is implemented by a German foreign minister whose Green party was elected on a platform that includes ending drug prohibition.

That's how appeasing Islamic alcohol prohibition looks like.

#215 leo (dissident view from Berlin) 

As always I agree with most of what you say. I hesitated before posting a link to that source, but unfortunately I find most of the information on Spain and topics that I want to know about comes from left-ish sources.

Allowing for its bias the Guardian's Spain section picks up news that I see on local media but few other English language news outlets. The Spain archive is well worth scrolling through, there are more articles on Opus Dei and Church financing of schools as well as ETA, Gibraltar, and of course prior to and after the Madrid bombings.

Regarding financing Mosques, an old friend once told me "if you want to lose a friend, give him money". I can only hope that the state is going to get something back in exchange.

#27 Paco

I'm sorry, Paco, but that World Socialist Web column was a little reaching...

Eventually Spain with carry the MARK OF THE BEAST on their souls. One day in the distant future, probably by 2030, America will have to come to the rescue of Eurabia.

yes.

He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." (Revelation 13:16-18)
Here we have the infamous "mark of the beast." Everyone in the world will need to have some kind of a mark, either on their right hand or on their forehead, in order to be able to buy or sell anything. Somehow the number 666 will be associated with the name of the Antichrist, probably by substituting the letters of his name with the appropriate numbers.

This "mark of the beast" system, which only allows financial transactions between those who have the mark, would probably be impossible without today's technology. We don't really know yet what form this mark will take, but it's doubtful that it will be a simple tattoo or something that could be faked or imitated. It's more likely that it will be a high-tech solution because everyone on earth is supposed to get this "mark" and perhaps be numbered or cataloged or tracked.

Consider, for example, that grocery stores often use a scanner to read the barcodes on the things that we buy. It would be fairly simple to use lasers to etch a barcode tattoo onto people's right hands or foreheads, which could then be read by a scanner like the grocery stores use. In this way, people's bank accounts could be adjusted automatically whenever they make financial transactions (such as buying or selling anything). That technology exists today. Or what if one day someone invents a computer chip so small that it could be inserted under your skin and could be read by a grocery store scanner? This chip could possibly holds tons of information about you, not just your bank account balance, and it would be very safe because you can't lose it, and people can't easily steal it. Believe it or not, the technology to implant tiny computer chips under the skin exists today, and it's already in use. Several European countries and U.S. cities already require dogs and cats to have a small computer chip implanted under the skin between their shoulder blades, which contains the owner's identity, and so on (see How Microchips Are Implanted Under Pets' Skin).
---

This anti-barcode message approved by the american union of manual cash register operators :-)

#215 leo (dissident view from Berlin)

#27 Paco from Sefarad - Opus Dei is political fossile, but your leftist source might not be very convincing here on LGF.

Revisiting that source I see that the paragraphs before the quotes I posted actually smell of appeasement fom Aznar's government and from the centre-right newspaper El Mundo.

The minister of defence, Federico Trillo-Figueroa, also stated in Congress that “the religious fervour of the Shiites has found a freedom of expression that it did not have before [the war] and that the attitude of our Armed Forces, respectful, sensitive to their beliefs and preoccupations, and without doubt, tolerant, will facilitate the contact with the population.”

The incorporation of the cross, however, gives the lie to such claims.

The centre-right newspaper El Mundo attacked the new design, arguing that careful consideration must be given to the risks of sending a Spanish force to the country, yet the latest deployment had been taken on the sole say-so of the ruling Popular Party (PP) government.

The newspaper’s editorial declared: “To put the Cross of St. James of Compostela on the uniforms of Spanish soldiers demonstrates an absolute ignorance of the psychology of the society in which they will have to carry out their mission.” And it added, “It would be difficult to come up with any symbol more offensive to the Shiite population than this cross.”

The Cross of St. James of Compostela was not included in the first design of the badge originally presented to the ministry by the defence secretary, Fernando Diez Moreno.

It is not clear who in the ministry took the decision to include the cross in the badge. However, it is well known that right-wing extremists and fascist forces within the establishment feel emboldened by President George W. Bush’s global “war on terror” and the now constant appeals to patriotism.

#219 Chris L.

howsabout El Mundo? ;^)

Paco,

Read that piece again carefully.

It's a little too much.

Chris L.
Even the wikipedia link leo (dissident view from Berlin) provided shows Opus to be a pretty unsavoury kind of organisation and something to be kept out of national politics. His analogy with the hypothetical choice between Kerry and Buchanan is an excellent one to understand the choices Spaniards faced at the polls, bombings aside, and the difference between what is defined as left and right in the US and Spain. That's all, I sure don't want to sell anybody here any kind of L³ line.

#213 Furious J just alluded to something that I've been thinking for quite a while. I know it feels good to tell the Europeans that they've done this to themselves (which is true) and they can FOAD, but America and Americans can't let the moslems get control of Europe. It has too resources that can be used against us. Also, it's literally our cultural heritage. So I'm in favor of saving Europe, but this time we need some payback. No more free ride as in the 20th century.

I'd certainly be willing to save France. America's price: Brittany and Normandy.

So what should we charge Spain?

#225 bouzouki

So what should we charge Spain?

The US already has bases in Torrejon near Madrid and Rota near Cadiz which is close to Gibraltar. What are you waiting for?

Spain already has plenty of McDonalds, Burger King, Burger Queen, Pizza Hut, Budweiser, and the list goes on. I'll tell you what. Kick out the Moslems from Spain and we'll let you have Portugal too as a free gift.

#227 Paco from Sefarad

Lot of nice beachfront property in Portugal. I like it. It's a deal! Portugal as 51st state.

#228 bouzouki

I forgot to mention that up along the Valencian coast we have Disneyland/Waterworld type theme parks, you guys will love it... a lot less crowded than Florida.

Bring it on! ;)

(my wife asks if you could please do something about the British lager louts in Benidorm too please?)

#223 Paco

I understand El Mundo's concern that the badge of Santiago could have offended the sensibilties of Iraqi Shi'ites - it is a worthy one to discuss - although that's assuming that Iraqi Shi'ites could easily have recognized the badge of Santiago as belonging specifically to an Iberian order in the first place, one that was founded in the twelfth century. Either way, let's do this...go to the Spanish Army website, [Link: www.ejercito.mde.es,...] and lo, you'll see the cross of Santiago as the army's scutcheon. Other army insignia include emblems that date from Spain's Middle Ages. Wearing or displaying these symbols recall Spain's military tradition. It doesn't mean that Spain, or the PP, has initiated secret plans to conquer the world for Christendom. Perhaps Spain could have used the cross that the Order of Calatrava wore, the cross of St. George, red cross on a white field...or maybe not. That cross, also used by the Catalano-Aragonese after the twelfth century in fighting against Iberian Muslims, was also a crusader's cross, and as you know, it is also the cross of England. Should British troops remove St. George's cross from the Union Jack (leaving it to be a St. Andrew's cross) just because English crusaders wore it as a mantle? The point is that regardless of whatever insignia 21st-century the Spanish army wears, doubtful that you're average Spanish soldier is recalling some pseudo-genetic memory of the Battle of Clavijo while being stationed in modern Najaf. And I don't think most Iraqis are going to care anyway. It's interesting how this piece was written about Najaf - as it turned out, it was al-Sadr's Shi'ites themselves who desecrated and appear to have vandalized or robbed from the shrine of Imam Ali, while the coalition and new Iraqi forces were sensitive as to damaging the ancient structure.

As for the rest of the piece, with statements like this...

"With the insertion of the cross onto its soldiers’ uniforms, the government is making clear that the invasion and occupation of Iraq are but the first step towards a renewed campaign of colonial conquest by the advanced capitalist countries."

...it just makes you wonder. And colonial conquest with a force of less than 2,000 soldiers? Hmm.

As for Opus Dei, yes they are still around (disliked by many Catholics), and quite wacky. But let's call it the "conspiracy theory of groups": Opus Dei, the Illuminati, the Benevolent Order of Elks, the Masons, the Shriners - and their modern equivalents: Halliburton and the whole state of Israel. Let's be careful not to tag secretive organizations or fraternities with odd initiation rituals as the culprits in some great plot to takeover whatever. It's too paranoid for my taste. The other day, in fact, I had a message in my inbox, a letter from a famous conspiracy theorist from Israel...Benny something?...for the life of me, I can't remember his name. Anyway, the gist in this letter was that Spain's involvement in Iraq was a colonialist-type enterprise - linked all the way to Juan Carlos and the House of Bourbon!

Yes, I agree Opus Dei is out of it. But some secret fraternity behind the scenes calling the shots? I'm sorry, I'm just not buying it.

#226 Iron Fist

I like your ideas. I wouldn't go so far as to outlaw the NEA, but I am frustrated by any organization that protects incompetance. I have mixed feelings on unions for this reason (and others, see Germany for obvious examples), despite the fact that they have also done a lot of good.

Eliminating tenure sounds great. The SAT idea is good too, and probably doesn't go far enough. Teacher's need to be tested on the SAT as well as the ACT and the specifics of their own material (language, history, etc.)

In addition to that, a continuous training on teaching itself should be required.

I'm curious, in fact, to hear honest discussions of the feasibility of privatizing k-12 education and having the individual states pick up the bill. I'm not saying it would necessarily be better, just worth discussing.

That said, I think there is a pretty strong correlation between school funding and school quality. The difference between schools in districts with a strong tax base and those are not is pretty obvious. Its difficult to separate other factors like crime, parenting, etc. that also improve in more affluent neighborhoods, but I wouldn't categorize education as a blackhole in any case.

Besides, all of those reforms will cost money.

OT, Down here in Florida (where even the election supervisors aren't educated enought to count) we've passed a state constitutional amendment (hurl, gag, cough - amendments to the constitution are NOT a good way to pass legislation - see California for more examples of this) requiring a reduction in class size.

Class size, while important, is not the holy grail of education. Efforts to reduce it have consumed all of the funding that could have gone to other, perhaps more meaningful, endeavors like buying books and computers, attracting & training good teachers, etc.

Just one example of waste. The problem is (ironically) that people aren't welleducated about what the goverment is doing, and whether it is an appropriate use of their tax dollars.

The whole thing makes me ill, as good intentioned as it was.

#229 Paco from Sefarad

Probably a lot less hurricanes, too.

Tell your wife we'll deal with the "louts" ;)

Re, education spending, you might want to take a look at the actual percentage spent on education by the federal government versus the amount spent by state and local governments. At one point, several years ago, it was 4% of the total spending. Under Bush, the spending went up by 60% in his first three years, but even allowing for that I doubt it's more than seven or eight percent of the total.

The main thing that federal education spending brings to the table is federal control via laws and- more insidiously- the tieing of strings to those federal funds. Bush knows that, too, which is why he put a lot of strings on some of these funds. (and as I recall there's been a lot of unhappy people because they couldn't get their federal dollars without doing things they didn't want to do... lol)

Education, to my mind, is a 'problem' solved best at the state and local level.

#230 Chris L.

I can't take issue with any of that. I certainly don't share the opinions or aims of wsws.org. I can only add that without believing in any kind of conspiracy it is clear that the Church and Opus Dei has until now exerted a strong influence on the Spanish right and the recent Aznar government, and it is time to do something about it.

Part of Zapatero's proposals (not yet law) is to repeal the laws making (Catholic) religious instruction obligatory in all State schools. I'm Jewish, I don't my kid to be obliged to receive instruction in Catholicism at school. When I attended school in the UK in the 1960s there were separate RI classes for C of E, catholics, Jews and Sikhs, reflecting the ethnic make-up at that time.

He also suggests removing crosses from public buildings. Good thing too IMO. Recently there was the case of a couple who expressly didn't want a religious wedding so they arranged to get a Civil marriage at the Town Hall. The registrar refused to temporarily remove the large crucifix from behind the rostrum in the hall and cancelled the ceremony.

Until very recently you couldn't call your child by any old name, the name had to appear in the Church's authorized list of apostles names. A friend wanted to register his daughter as Mar (Sea). He was told it couldn't be, had to be Maria del Mar or something along those lines.

Most Spaniards won't have too much trouble accepting a widening of the separation between Church and State, I do wonder how they'll react to financing Mosques. believe it or not I haven't seen anything at all about it in the media here, they seem to be downplaying the dhimmitude part.

[Link: www.elmundo.es...]

bouzouki,

It's a done deal!

But isn't Puerto Rico the 51^st State?

But isn't Puerto Rico the 51st State?

Nah, you think they'd want to start paying taxes? ; )

#234 Paco

I agree with you on the notion on state financing of Catechism instruction. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out. I did see however that the Constitution had this to say (Title I, Chapter II, Article XVI):

"3. Ninguna confesión tendrá carácter estatal. Los poderes públicos tendrán en cuenta las creencias religiosas de la sociedad española y mantendrán las consiguientes relaciones de cooperación con la Iglesia Católica y las demás confesiones."

Notice

...y mantendrán las consiguientes relaciones de cooperación con la Iglesia Católica...

I'm no Spanish lawyer, but I'm assuming that this is the legal justification for the current religious instruction in State schools (would this be what Zapatero wants to repeal?). But also notice y las demás confesiones... i.e., "the other faiths." Would this then be the legal liscence for financing Mosques?

Either way, I agree with you on the issue regarding the current obligation of religious instruction, and on the repeal of having to have a saintly name (but how did Arantxa Sanchez get away with Arantxa? :-)). And if they're going to slash the religious instruction in public schools, it needs to be across the board.

I'm also unsure of the role that the Tribunals will have in this legislation, or if they're any checks-and-balances in play here.

Come to think of it. I kind of like Maria del Mar, Mary of the Sea :-D

And is it just me, or did I completely misspell the hell out of "license?" I'm losing it.

Spain has been a Catholic country since the expulsion of the Moors in 1492

You'd think that should tell the Spanish everything they need to know about Islam.

#236 Chris L.

Notice

...y mantendrán las consiguientes relaciones de cooperación con la Iglesia Católica...

I'm no Spanish lawyer, but I'm assuming that this is the legal justification for the current religious instruction in State schools (would this be what Zapatero wants to repeal?). But also notice y las demás confesiones... i.e., "the other faiths." Would this then be the legal liscence for financing Mosques?

Yes, all of this is part of wide ranging proposals for reform of the Constitution including allowing women to inherit the Spanish throne. Doña Letizia, the heir's wife, is rumoured to be pregnant but the Crown's continuity must be garanteed, so just in case... Also the Constitution needs to be modified if certain regional demands are to be met. Part of the reason the plan to share sovereignty of Gibraltar failed is that as things stand at the moment Gibraltar would enjoy less autonomy as a Spanish region than it currently enjoys under British "rule".

And if they're going to slash the religious instruction in public schools, it needs to be across the board.

From Charles' original link at the top of this thread, my bold:

Earlier plans included a pledge to scrap the promise of the previous centre-Right government of Jose Maria Aznar to re-introduce obligatory religious instruction. The new government said religious education would be optional.

Come to think of it. I kind of like Maria del Mar, Mary of the Sea :-D

I heard this Maria del Mar once. Nice voice :-)

#237

I was taught to spell it "licence" ;-P

#239 Paco

"The new government said religious education would be optional."

That sounds like a better plan, although I'm still queasy about government money going to Mosques.

As for women being allowed to inherit the throne, I assume that you mean for women to become first-born inheritors, since daughters can inherit the throne, that is if there is no male heir, it then goes to the eldest, or only, daugter (i.e. Isabella I, Isabella II, and maybe Urraca in the Middle Ages - this is in keeping with Castilian tradition). The purpose I see with this proposal of allowing the first-born daughter to have the throne is so that there is no change of dynasty, meaning that the Bourbons stay on and the crown doesn't nominally shift to some other family.

As for Gibraltar, the Gibralterenians want to remain with Britain, and that's the important thing. This recent display of protest that Spain exhibited over the 300-year celebration was ridiculous.

And is Letizia pregnant already? Christ!

BTW, I think "license" can count, at least here anyway. "Licence" may be a British thing.

#240 Chris L.

If the changes do mean that any state money goes to all religious groups instead of the Catholic Church being a priveledged beneficiary then I'd assume they would have to give Mosques something. Soon after the elections they did suggest licencing and monitoring imans, requiring them to deposit copies of their sermons with some kind of authority. There was outrage from the Church at that suggestion so maybe they think offering money will give them some rights to control what goes on inside the mosques. Perhaps a little like how the British run Mosques as charities? Remember how they eventually threw out Ali Hook from the Finsbury Park mosque in London using the Charities Commission.

I assume that you mean for women to become first-born inheritors, since daughters can inherit the throne, that is if there is no male heir, it then goes to the eldest, or only, daugter

Yes, I'm sure they wouldn't want the crown to pass to Letizia Ordoñez's family. The move would mean that if her first child is a girl then continuity would already be guaranteed. The pregnancy rumour is based on one reporter asking her if it were true, she just looked blasé and replied that, "You (the press) will be among the first to know." It's that old old journalistic trick of starting rumours by stating that "there is no truth in the rumour that..."

Not only were they furious over Gibraltar's anniversary celebrations and royal visits, but also over the nuclear submarine HMS Tireless's return visit to The Rock after having spent more than a year there until recently for repairs. The UK stopped negotiating with Madrid towards the end of Aznar's time saying pretty much that it was up to Spain to win the hearts and minds of the Gibraltarians and stop the sabre rattling and obstructionism of yore, like closing the frontier and limiting phone lines. The local Spanish press resemble Hammas when they describe the people of Gib as "sons of apes and whores", hardly surprising they don't want to become another Euskadi (Basque Country).

"license" is fine, I am British and that was a display of British "humour".

Maybe it's really "Catholics Out, Scientologists In"

You were talking about a way to "mark" people, here's the way it will probably be done.

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

Who gives a rat's tuchas what happens in Spain? The Spanish were stupid enough to vote this idiot into power as a way of showing their taste for appeasement. They had the chance to reject leftist appeasement but they chose to adopt it. Now let them learn the hard way about how the religion of train bombs respects them for their weakness.

#244 transferthem

Whatever it is that the government does, sensible Americans would prefer that the government do it to somebody else. This is the idea behind foreign policy.

P. J. O'Rourke , American writer
Parliament of Whores (1991)

Islam is on a roll, and it will snowball. Say goodbye to Europe.

Has Zapatero converted to Islam?

Laugh all you want, Kerry will do the same to the US.

Trash Spain all you want, but these Socialists believe themselves more Westernized & avant garde and politically correct than any previous Spanish governments--they believe themselves the best government Spain's ever had according to Western standards.

Their Socialist predecessors from 1982-1996 and earlier in the 1930s were lionized in US & Western literature, Hollywood and the mainstream media for having fought against Franco and his dictatorship. (Which dictatorship was awfully pro-American and pro-Western, despite being ultraCatholic and strongarmed--and went out with a wimper.) Centrist or conservative Spaniards and Spanish politicians are routinely tarred as Francoist no matter how inappropriate the comparison.

So despite 25 years of westernization and freedom from religion and freedom from Franco's dictatorship, some part of the new Spain chose this retrogade LLL-spouting Hanoi Kerry clone wannabe to be more like the rest of the LLL planet.

I'll take a conservative, centrist Spain that supports the US & Israel & capitalism & liberty over this suicidal train wreck anyday.