Gustavo Selva, an Italian lawmaker, told French radio a ransom of around $1 million

Easy money.

There's nothing like a huge payoff to deter would be kidnappers.

they might have just been the common but successful criminals that have no religious/political goals.

either way it was very stupid or the italians to award the kidnapers. Whether for political statement or finanicial gain this action and the outcome will just encourage others to do similar activities causing much suffering for the innocent.

The Italians should have booby-trapped the cash ala the exploding M-16.

First Spain, now Italy. The coalition is crumbling...

OT "Chuck" in Front Page:

Take the general media reaction to Charles Johnson, the Los Angeles web designer and former jazz musician who typed up those CBS "memos" into Microsoft Word and still displays the damning result at the top of his Little Green Footballs blog.

At best, this reaction is patronizing and dismissive, e.g.: well, what can we expect from a Republican? (Although for the record, Johnson never voted for a G.O.P. candidate until Arnold Schwarzenegger ran for governer in the 2003 California recall election.) At worst - and far more common in the leftwing blogsophere - his site is described, as in this Daily Kos post, as "simply a dung heap of racist panic" and AOL/Time Warner shouldn't advertise there.

Johnson's "racist" crime is that prior to the CBS fiasco, he was best known for doggedly pointing out the nature of the enemy; one of his first posts returning to this theme after Rathergate, for instance, was a link to a story about a Bangladesh madrassah teacher who chopped off the ears of 17 students for not reading their textbooks loudly enough.

[Link: frontpagemag.com...]

I suspect the whole thing was a set-up and I'm not the only one who thinks so. There's something off about this story.

That'll teach 'em! Oh... wait...

I agree that paying a ransom encourages more of this stuff, but you have to ask yourself the question... What would you do if it was your loved one? Would you pay money to save their life? It is always easy to say that we do not and should never negotiate with terrorists, when it isn't your loved one's life on the line.

I am very happy at the news of thier safe return.

could the recent rash of kidnappings for ransom indicate that the Islamic terrorists are having a difficult time raising money these days?

could the UN oil for food program have supplied them all these years?

# 3

No kidding! Watch the funds and whenever they have activity, you make a withdrawal; you withdraw the guy's ass from the planet!

And look at how that CNN reporter got himself freed from the so called palestinians:

Terrorist kidnappers abruptly released a CNN producer yesterday — after he helped them make a videotape urging his secretive Druze religious sect to stop supporting Israel.

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

Here too.

"I wish to take this opportunity to thank you and to thank the entire Arab world, who proved their friendship to us and to Italy, especially at these difficult times," he told al-Jazeera.

It's a tough one to call. We all want to save lives but in the long run, will this cost far more lives when kidnappers see a very lucrative market and certain countres who won't pay ransoms? I think the answer is yes, plus the money will fund more training and weapons purchasing for terrorists.

You've got to be a hard bastard to be a political leader these days, you have to willing to make really tough decisions and almost switch off your feelings. I've huge respect for leaders that can do that. Because don't think somebody like our POTUS doesn't shed many tears privately for every american who loses their life. And don't think he doesn't twist and turn in bed at night thinking about the huge decisions he has to make.

He's tough, but he's a very human guy.

And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we’ve proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.

Rudyard Kipling.

I want to hear the young ladies' story of the whole ordeal.

I think we should be easy on the Italians because they've been with us all along in Iraq. Maybe someone can 'follow the money' and get the bad guys in the end.

But Italy is good. Let's show respect.

#15 Gruen

you are making an projecting how you would react and making assumptions about what his actions "might" be.

Unless you have been in the room and seen him cry.

a great deal of assumptions have been made in this forum by individuals they feel should or feel should not be in public office.

Its better to rely on absolut facts. Wars are started because of assumptions.

I guess the West could resort to something like:

For each kidnapping we drop incendiary bombs on and around a major mosque.

Come to think of it, maybe we should do that anyhow...

I'm the biggest skeptic in town and this little deal stinks of pure BS.

These girls in no way shape or form were held for three weeks living under the fear of being brutally murdered at any moment if their kidnappers demands weren't met.

They look more like they just won the lottery, ya think the Italians will be smart enough to check their bank statements over the next few months?

#17

Well, part of the story is that the kidnappers took the two Simonas to a villa on the outskirts of Bagdad. According to the gals, the captors treated them well, with "warmth and solidarity," and with "respect." When the $1M was paid, they gave the women new clothes and (get this) a box of chocolates. They then asked the ladies to forgive them.

What a SWELL BUNCH OF GUYS. Gentlemen, even!

You see (Jedi mind trick) they're rational. They're nice. If it wasn't for Bushitler, everything would be fine.

C'mon, don't dump Italy in the same bucket as Spain.

Paying ransoms doesn't generally work out, but anyone who knows Italian 20th century history will also know that the establishment there has long experience of dealing with kidnappers (it legally prohibited the paying of ransoms to kidnappers in Sardinia, and in so doing pretty much stamped Sardinian kidnapping out.) I suspect there's more to this "payment" than meets the eye.

Anyway, more to the point, Berlusconi has stood shoulder-to-shoulder with the US and Israel, and Italian troops continue to give their lives in Iraq. To equate them with the Spanish is an insult.

thanks Idiotly- i mean Italy- way to go!
way to encourage the very enemy you're fighting, not to mention supplying them with $$. what a terrific ally in the war on terror. I hope those 2 enjoy their freedom, because they just embolden the enemy to keep kidnapping, and keep beheading. Their lives could very well cost other's theirs. One of those 2 better end up finding a cure for cancer or something! If any of my "loved ones" were in that position, I couldn't negotiate- no way. By doing so, I would just encourge the kidnapping and murder of others. Just because they are "my" loved ones, doesn't make them any more important than "your" loved ones.

#21 Geepers

smart observation. I would like to think that the italians have some police detectives that will think about things like that as well as the posibility that the organization the women work for may see a large infusion from a single source.

could the Islamic cult be doing some public relations work to counter the dhimm and infidel reaction to thier recent actions?

I have been trying to tell everyone I know to just look at thier actions to decide which face of Islam is the real one.

Osama Bin Laden was a hero before 9-11 and afterwards

I do not believe the war on terrorism is responsible for more terrorism

I think the war has forced the cult to concentrate thier efforts on Iraq while neglecting other areas

I believe that Iran is the next legetimate target due to its financial support and nuclear program

I think that 9-11 was the high water mark of the cult of Islam in the 21st century

Kidnappings will stop when Iraqis step up and rat on these assholes and we immediately wipe them out.

Yes, Iraqis need to show us where to wipe their assholes for them.

#7, #21 - Concur. The organization these two were with is a far left outfit. As Thoreau said, when you find a trout in the milk, something's been added. Hope there is a through follow-up by the Italians. This pair may have duped them.

The Corriere is reporting that al-Jazeera broadcast their release first, and the two women had their heads covered in veils. (Still pictures of this are in the linked article.) Their first words?

«Shukran, shukran gesilan, ma salama (Grazie, grazie mille, arrivederci)»

I'm waiting for Oriana Fallaci's choice words for all this.

#21 Geepers

In Italy, like in here (!!!) any big movement of money in a bank account is recorded by a special authority (because of laws against money laundering).

I'm thinking that they have figured out that head chopping any and all nationalities was creating a backlash against them, so perhaps now they will still continue to kidnap any nationality, and after the requisite hoopla, they will accept political or financial payoffs, and release any nationalities except AMERICANS, whom they will continue to behead...this will keep the anger from mounting against them from other nationalities, and at the same time isolate the US allowing anti-Americans to be even more sympathetic to them...

So far I go along with zulubaby and the conspiracry theory, although the smiling hostages could well be suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

A security expert on BBC World Service earlier today suggested that perhaps the kidnappers were "common criminals" who only wanted money anyway, and/or they had been unable to sell the girls on to "religious" groups.

That's a possibility too, I guess. Perhaps the jihadis realise that kidnapping women wouldn't be good PR just now.

I won't be at all surprised to hear more from Le Simone along the lines of "oppressed Muslims in Palestine, yaddah yaddah..."

Freed Italians Eye Return to Iraq They Love

By Phil Stewart

ROME (Reuters) - Safely home in Italy, two women aid workers spoke of returning to Iraq on Wednesday despite a three-week hostage ordeal as their overjoyed nation shrugged off reports that a ransom was paid to free them.

Iraqi officials and foreign security consultants warned that ransom payments would only encourage more abductions.

Simona Pari and Simona Torretta, both 29, said they were taught about Islam and not harmed. After a hero's welcome in Rome late on Tuesday, they looked to put the kidnap behind them.

"I hope to return to Iraq soon. It's a country that I really love," Pari told reporters crowded around her house in Rome. "We were always treated with a lot of respect."

Torretta was quoted as saying she would "do it all over again, with all of the consequences."

"We never understood. But they apologized for kidnapping us and they even asked us for forgiveness," she told reporters.

Police had said both were kept blindfold throughout.

Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's government has refused to comment publicly on whether money changed hands to win their freedom. He has not denied it and most newspapers and a leading figure in his coalition spoke of a ransom of $1 million or more. But the issue caused little controversy in Italy, which has a long history of paying money to home-grown kidnap gangs.

"The lives of the girls was the most important thing," Gustavo Selva, chairman of parliament's foreign affairs committee, told France's RTL radio, adding that Italy had "probably" paid around $1 million.

"In principle, we shouldn't give in to blackmail but this time we had to, although it's a dangerous path to take because, obviously, it could encourage others to take hostages, either for political reasons or for criminal reasons," he said.

CRIME OR IDEOLOGY?

Officials in Iraq said such payments were fueling the kidnapping trade: "The reason for the acceleration in kidnappings is simply because ransoms are being paid," said Sabah Kadhim, a spokesman for Iraq's Interior Ministry.

Around 130 foreigners have been seized in a wave of abductions that began in April. Most of them have been released, but around 30 have been killed. Hundreds of Iraqis have also been seized but their plight rarely makes world headlines. The case of "the two Simonas" differed from many other high-profile abductions in that the kidnappers showed no images of them throughout their captivity, and did not force them to plead for political concessions before cameras.

A very different set of kidnappers are holding Briton Kenneth Bigley, who was shown in a new video on Wednesday pleading with Prime Minister Tony Blair to meet his kidnappers demands and save his life. Two French journalists have also appeared in a video that called for a change in French policy.

The Simonas' kidnapping was also very different from that of Italian journalist Enzo Baldoni, who was killed last month after Rome refused to withdraw its 2,700 troops from Iraq.

For Berlusconi, a strong U.S. ally who has promised to keep soldiers in Iraq for as long as necessary, the Simonas' release was a triumph -- with or without a ransom. Italian newspapers quoted the prime minister as saying: "Controversy about the ransom? I don't think there can be any."

#19
Kelly,

Sorry you've lost me....what are you talking about?

We all saw how he reacted in a very human and hionest way after 9/11. The "I'm a loving guy" much mocked by the LLL but showed a very honest man in pain at what happened.

And I'll make whatever assumptions I like thank you very much.

There are conflicting versions of the story: according to some, the Ulema played a role. Others say that no, it was the Tribal Council and they did not ask any money.

Now Frattini, the Foreign Minister, denies that a ransom was paid.

The interesting bit is that an al-Jazira reporter was already on the site were Scelli, the Italian Red Cross Commissar, received the two women. What a coincidence.

Yes, there's a lot of mistery about the whole ordeal, but nothing conclusive.

Before you dump Italy in the same basket of traitors with Spain and the Philippines, I wish to remember you that Italian troops are still in Iraq, and will stay there for long.

"..but reports that a large ransom was paid may only feed the burgeoning hostage crisis."

Hmm. Didn't some council of Islamic leaders decide that kidnapping and killing people was against Islam?

my #32

Perhaps the jihadis realise that kidnapping women wouldn't be good PR just now.

Preview is my friend :-/

Perhaps the jihadis realise that kidnapping beheading women wouldn't be good PR just now.

kelly (#25),

Good observation yourself, maybe they're doing for a 'higher cause'. Take a look at their affiliates.

Poitiers-Lepanto (#30),

Sure, but I was thinking more along the lines of their personal spending jumping up. If they're dirty into the bargain for money it would most likely be cash.

Simona & Simona look very much like idealistic fools. If there had been any conspiracy (and I doubt it), it was to aid and finance the "iraqi resistance", not for their personal gain.

I agree with zulubaby, there's something off about this story. Just seeing the faces of the women, and knowing that usually women are raped, they appeared to look too well for people held in captivity for 3 weeks. They don't appear to have lost any weight either.

The whole thing is odd.

#42

The two women look like they've just come off a nice relaxing vacation.......

Two western women held captive and come out unscathed and are all smiles???

Hmmmmmmm

Hey, ease off on the Italians. I mean, a terrorist has got to earn a living somehow.

Has the UN set a livable wage for a terrorist? Maybe half million or so for a kidnapping (depending on country of origin) and 25k for a run of the mill homicide bombing.

Hey, there are a lot of hungry Jihadis to feed.

/

Wildly OT, but maybe not. I found this in my Junk mail folder today. My bold.

Nigeria 419ers emmigrate to the Gulf.

Note: The originating IP is in the United Arab Emirates!

From: "Mohamed Salim AL kazeel ."
Reply-To: mohamed_555@Z6.com
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:26:10 +0300
Subject: I NEED YOUR HELP.PLEASE DONT LET ME DOWN

ATTENTION SIR.

Goodday,I am Mohamed Salim AL kazeel the first son of Sheik Mohamed Amed Yousuf Hassan.I got your address in the internat while searching for trusted person that i can relate with. I am moved to write this letter to you considering my present situations as we escaped out of the my country during the war to Shebha in Libya to seek for political assylum, along with my family were we settled now.My father was killed in Iraq under Sadam Husein regime,during the time president George Bush of America was about to introducing the new interim civilian Government in Iraq. May 29th 2004 was the date he was killed cold bloodedly in Iraq.My father was one of the well known influenced moderate Shia leaders in Iraq and also an international cooperate business man.But before his Death he deposited the some of US$39,300,000.00 Thirty Nine million three hundred thousand united states dollars in a security and financial company firm in United Arab Emirate as family Valuables for safe keeping .But this money was meant to buy three plot of land and to build a multi car parks in two places in United Arab Emirate namely one at Bur Dubai and the other one at Al shajar since this places are center for business men.These funds were security coded to prevent it from failing into the wrong hands.I humble want to introduce you as the beneficiary to my family lawyer who is currently in Dubai now.I can also give you his contact address to get him on your interest to help my family to transfer these money out of gulf region and help us to invest it in your country because i see my country or any of the Arab nation are no longer safe for us to stay again besides i dont want to loose another head.What I am suggesting now is this,for you to help my family out by clearing this fund from security company with your name as the rightful owner,and go down to Dubai and carry this fund to your country for foreign investment and relationship with you.I have agreed with the rest of my family members that Fifteen Percent (15%) of the total deposit will be given to you for your help and another Five Percent (5%) will be set aside for expenses that you may come across during the transaction. The balance Eighty Percent (80%) remains for me and my family business, which you will help us establish.I want to assure you again that this transaction is risk free but demands absolute truth ,transparency and strictest of confidence for mutual benefits.I request of you to please reply this correspondent through the same email address for security reasons, if you are willing assist my family and we are also part of your family now please dont let me down we promise to be loyal to you,please reply urgently before our ramadam prayer begins.Thanks,
Yours friend,
Mohamed Salim AL kazeel

FabioC. (#40),

Simona & Simona look very much like idealistic fools.

Yeah, when I first saw their pictures with the headscarfs I thought 'Rachael Corrys'.

It seems if we wanted to really win this war, we would fight fire with fire. If these terrorists want to go to heaven and think that by killing Americans and themselves they will accomplish this. Why not do as General Pershing did and give them some of their own medicine, just don't tell the elite media. Well maybe Al jazeera.

Geepers,

A few hours ago one of them was still chanting the mantra "Withdraw the troops"...

... and the price for America letting Kaddafi off the hook for Lockerbie?

$1.5billion to the victims families... and Colin Powell's (underhanded) handshake

... which immediately recouped Kaddafi's payoff the form of unfrozen Libyan assets-- no longer under U.S. sanction.

... and so the 270 Lockerbie innocents (187 of them American) will cry out from the grave 'til the day of resurrection before America gives that Tripoli goat-humper his comeuppance.

So, sure, the message continues to get thru to the Islamo-fascists: Terrorism still pays-- handsomely.

9-11 changed nothing

Did anyone ever stop a second to think about what hassle would be for the soldiers on the ground to mess around with pigs and stuff, or to waste time and energy locating Mecca in order to bury the corpses in a certain fashion, or to hang shoes to the ceiling?

You would soon discover that it would be a great effort for a minimal return.

AIUI, the women were kidnapped by a criminal gang who SELL hostages to Islamic terror groups who then use them for propaganda purposes (ie snuff movies).

Presumably, the terrorist groups were refusing/unable to pay the criminal gang for the women so that is why they have been kept in limbo and off the internet for the past month or so.

It would appear that the Italians may have paid the ransom demand to prevent the women falling into the hands of an even worse group.

#36 FabioC- Could you translate the first couple lines of the Libero article where Frattini and Berlusconi are mentioned? Or is there an English mirror site?

Others may express their outrage for Gustavo Selvas' comments at the EMBASSY OF ITALY IN THE UNITED STATES

Perhaps the women began menstruation and thereby became unclean and needed to be cast from the village.

#50 FabioC.

Where did that come from?

#51 Gordon....

That is possible.
Although the reports suggested that initially the kidnappers had also political requests, and when an italiana envoy told them to stuff it, the asked for $5M, then finally settled for 1M.

watch for these chicks to write a book about their "ordeal" and how humane their islamic kidnappers treated them and how they were fighting western imperialism and unfortunately had to "kidnap" them to make a point because they are oppressed and this was the only way to get media attention for their cause--then see them at front seats when they attend the next milan fashion shows as the guests of donatella versace who will feature really really colorful head scarves in her next collection

#7 Zulubaby

Yeah, I'm with you. Something is just not right here, given these womens' political histories, and their friendship with the fake Japanse hostages.

# 51

Right, but there's something strange about the kidnapping.

The Corriere has video of the kidnapping itself. That video is strange: armed guys just saunter into the aid agency compound with their AK-47's held loosely. There's no sign of struggle.

It sure doesn't look like a "gang" showing up, shouting, pointing weapons, demanding things, grabbing women, shoving them into cars, etc.

FabioC, is this something you can clarify?

#52 torchy

The first two links read:

"Simona Pari: I deeply miss Iraq"
"S. Torretta: The kidnappers were not part of a political group".

Then:
"We did not pay any sort of ransom", says Franco Frattini, although during the night Berlusconi declared "There's nothing to say about the ransom. We won't talk about it anymore".

#53 Thom

I noticed the Pig Fat Brigade resurfacing also on this thread...

51

May I suggest registering with a new nick? You share a first name with a poster who was dropped on his head (repeatedly) as a child.

video here - click on "Il rapimente delle due italiane"

#57 godfrey

I think there is no video of the kidnapping itself; I could see images of the aftermath, with IRaqi police and security forces. Can you provide a link or more info?

People people people, this so-called "kidnapping" incident was staged from the beginning. Fake. Phony.

Read my links above (sorry if Yahoo and Reuters seem to have changed the photos on the links). Here's the updated correct links:

Nahoko Takato and hostage mother

grinning instants after ordeal

In short:

In April it was discovered that the Japanese hostages similarly kidnapped and released in Iraq had helped to stage the entire thing. In Japan, this is known widely, though it is rarely mentioned in the West. The main Japanese phony hostage, Nahoko Takato, WAS IN ANNAMARIA TORRETTA'S APARTMENT AT THE INSTANT THE ITALIAN HOSTAGES' RELEASE WAS ANNOUNCED, and was photographed hugging her. Annamaria is the mother of Simona Torretta, one of the hostages. This can only lead to two conclusions:

a. Nahoko Takato either helped to stage this fake kidnapping too, or found out about it through the "fake kidnapping grapevine."
b. Nahoko Takato and probably others knew about the release ahead of time, because they were in communication with and collusion with the kidnappers.

Don't get fooled again.

Makes you wonder what the hold up with the French hostages is - weren't they offering $5 million?

Already those two women,now in Italy, said : "We were taught the principles of Islam".."The situation in Iraq is bad and in order to improve it we must denounce the occupation and demand an urgent withdrawal of all the occupation troops" and.. "we want to go in Iraq "

Plus, there a journalist of Al Jazeera who lives in Italy, on TV,which, while showing the images of the British hostage,said that he is dressed "just like are the prisoners in Guantanamo"

There was no Magdi Allam (a GREAT Egyptian-born Italian Journalist,a sort of Amir Taheri) to reply ,as he did yesterday, when he countered a fucking Tunisian showgirl which defended Al Jazeera (and the use of hijab,even if she never wears it and even made naked pictures!)..Magdi has literally said that Al Jazeera is a terrorist TV and should be banned

Afef, that fucking idiot, was so pissed off!!

Ah, so those guys walking in are security forces... I was misled by the title of that clip,"il rapimento delle due italiane." The voice-over does say the kidnapping was quick, about five minutes. This is aftermath footage, you're right about that.

#62 zombie

While I think it's possible that all this was staged, a few picrtures are not conclusive evidence.

Leave it to the Euroweenies to make things worse.

With all due respect to zulubaby et al, I'm not really on board with the "this was a setup" theory. Or, at least, I'd need more info. The strongest piece of evidence in favor of this theory is surely the Japanese fake hostage greeting the girls. But as far as the multiple photos of the girls looking "too happy/too healthy"... well, I dunno, they've just been freed from captivity, I'd expect them to look happy. I recall the photos, accounts and videos from those two American girls who had been held by the Taliban at the outbreak of the Afghan war, then rescued by Special Forces; they seemed happy as the proverbial clams at high tide.

Anyway; I'm appalled that Berlusconi signed off on a ransom payment, if indeed that's what happened. I can only hope there's some scheme here to use the money trail to zap the kidnappers.

#62 zombie: your "Nahoko Takako" link takes us to a site with 100 photos--could you please direct us to which one it is. Thanks.

Simona Pari certainly has that hardened LLL stare, like a Stalinist true believer... It's as if someone has vacuumed out her brains and left her to repeat taped messages, over and over.

In the pictures that I saw of the women after being released, they seemed to have lost quite a bit of weight. Other than that, they looked healthy.

I hope that Italy didn't pay a ransom. For whatever reasons the hostages were released, though, I think that we should give the Italians a break -- they're still in Iraq with us, which is much more than we can say for the majority of nations.

Better yet, direct your comments to Italian Parliamentary Foreign Affairs Commission Chairman Gustavo Selva himself. Probably the Italian version of that American congressional loudmouth Joe Biden

Perhaps the holy warriors can use the $1 million to cover their expenses for attending the proposed Paris Peace Conference? Or was Chirac planning on picking that up?

#66 FabioC.

#62 zombie
While I think it's possible that all this was staged, a few picrtures are not conclusive evidence.

Fabio, please read stefania's translations in comment #64 above:

#64 stefania
Already those two women,now in Italy, said : "We were taught the principles of Islam".."The situation in Iraq is bad and in order to improve it we must denounce the occupation and demand an urgent withdrawal of all the occupation troops" and.. "we want to go in Iraq "

These two hostages are obviously activists who did all this to get attention and to earn a platform to announce their propaganda. In their interviews they repeat the exact talking points taught to ISM members and similar groups. I know it seems callous to "blame the victim," but that is exactly the reaction that the charlatans are counting on. The whole thing was orchestrated long, long ago. Tell me how likely it is that, at random, Islamic kidnappers would grab two different women -- both named Simona and both 29 years old and both members of Socialist anti-war activist groups. You're trying to say that's just a coincidence?

 #69 Occasional Reader

#62 zombie: your "Nahoko Takako" link takes us to a site with 100 photos--could you please direct us to which one it is. Thanks.

Sorry, they keep changing it. Hopefully this will work:

Japanese phony hostage hugging Italian mother photo #1

Japanese phony hostage hugging Italian mother photo #2

This is a great way for the Europeans to ensure their vision for Iraq (chaos, death, Islamism), and to oppose the United States geopolitically. Win-win, for Eurotrash.

Maybe I'm being too harsh? Maybe that happens after watching enough beheadings?

#68 Occasional Reader

The strongest piece of evidence in favor of this theory is surely the Japanese fake hostage greeting the girls.

It's not that the Japanese fake hostage greeted the girls themselves when they arrived -- it's that she was in the mother's apartment at the instant their release was announced, which meant she was there 5 minutes before the announcement was made, which meant she obviously knew about it ahead of time. The quote from the caption of the photo I posted:

Ex-hostage Japanese Nahoko Takato, left, hugs Annamaria Torretta, mother of Italian aid volunteer Simona, at the moment the news break of the release of the two Italian hostages Simona Pari and Simona Torretta, in her home, in Rome, Tuesday, Sept. 28, 2004.

....er.. paying ransom to kidnappers is a time honored euro tradition--why the surprise--its a growth industry in mesopotamia--most releases have come after ransom payments--you think these gangs have a change of heart--does iraq have the lindbergh law?--allahu nakba

#72 zulubaby:

Tell me how likely it is that, at random, Islamic kidnappers would grab two different women -- both named Simona and both 29 years old and both members of Socialist anti-war activist groups.

Well... as to the fact that both are named "Simona" and both 29 years old, I'm not sure which way that evidence cuts. I mean, it's also hard to imagine that the jihadists' plans included the idea, "and it's crucial that our fake hostages both be named "Simona" and both be 29 years old!".

As to their both being members of a moonbat group, I'm guessing there are plenty of their brethren running around Iraq at the moment, just as they are running around Gaza shouting "end the occupation!".

Again, I'm not saying this wasn't a setup, but the evidence so far is thin.

Also, zombie--another possible explanation for Takako's having been in the mom's apartment at the time of release, would be that she had been hanging around there for some time already, in a self-promotion as "world's leading ex-hostage".

If these women were part of a setup, I sure as hell hope they're prosecuted by the Italian government.

--76

You are aware that British, Polish, Italian and other European troops are currently in Iraq, right? And that these men and women are doing all they can to bring peace to the region, right?

Treating Europe as if it's just an extension of France, and slamming all of its people as "Eurotrash", is as lazy as it is dumb.

#76 Beagle

Yes, you are. Italy is not France: I think recently we have proved to be staunch allies of the USA.

Try to see it this way, too: a pro-war government is not very popular in Italy, and is hostages are killed, things get even worse. Saving hostages, instead, is a victory for the government, and our troops stay in Iraq.

#68 Occasional Reader

But as far as the multiple photos of the girls looking "too happy/too healthy"... well, I dunno, they've just been freed from captivity, I'd expect them to look happy.

The part that's damning is their expressions instants after they were released. They were let go by the "terrorists," "forced" to wear Islamic veils, then they walked a few yards to "safety," flipped up their veils, AND LOOKED LIKE THIS. Sure it's understandable that they looked happy the next day or after the flight home. But in that immediate circumstance they would have been completely freaked out. Remember what the women and teenagers who were lucky enough to escape the Beslan hostage situation looked like when they first escaped? Terrified, weeping, hysterical -- even though they were now free and safe.

Look carefully at the Italians' faces in that photo and tell me they just spent three weeks living in terror.

Hey cool.

Let me see. 2 Italian hostages would get me $1M.
Then I could kidnap another 50.
That would be $25M.

Then I could retire. Excellent.

First, let me add my voice to those who are defending Italy as a (relatively) sturdy ally WWIV

#74 zombie

You're drifting dangerously close to LLL conspiracy theorist reasoning here. The name Simona is not all that uncommon (see here), and both the age and political leanings of the women are completely unsurprising given the reason for their precense in Iraq.

I'm not saying it wasn't a hoax, just that we should hold higher standards of proof. (this isn't some CBS producers lounge, after all)

From where I sit, the evidence seems to indicate this was simply a 'bad snatch' by a gang of hostage traders.

They went after a soft target and obtained hostages who were, for whatever reason, undesirable to their normal end customers.

This would also explain why the women weren't raped or otherwise brutalized. Hostages 'damaged' in such a manner are less valuable regardless of who the end customer might be.

#82 zombie:

Remember what the women and teenagers who were lucky enough to escape the Beslan hostage situation looked like when they first escaped? Terrified, weeping, hysterical

Errrm, well, keep in mind that in the case of Beslan they had just been freed after a horrifying, chaotic firefight in which many hostages, including children, had been shot in front of their eyes. Not to mention that they had endured seeing people murdered before them (including kids) during the preceding days.

If these girls were, in fact, treated "relatively well" by their captors, it's not at all unlikely that they'd be in good spirits moments after their release. I knew people who were held captive at the Japanese embassy takeover by terrorists in Lima in 1996-97, and who were released a few days after the initial takeover; I don't recall anyone reporting shock/trauma upon their release.

zombie:

You state

Look carefully at the Italians' faces in that photo and tell me they just spent three weeks living in terror.

Recall the girls specifically indicate that they were treated well. Their situation is so much different than what took place in Beslan that a comparisons of their "post trauma" conditions are meaningless.

Its like comparing Apples and Ferrari F40s... sure they're both red but it ends there.

Again...give Italy a break. They're on our side for better and for worse.

How come one million does the trick in this case, but twenty five million can't get Zarkowee?

I admit there is obviously no conclusive proof that the hostage-taking was staged, but my BS-meter is just going right off the scale. Everything is just way, way too suspicious. Perhaps this wouldn't stand up in a court of law, but to summarize the truly fishy aspects of the story:

1. A known kidnapping-faker was in close contact with the victims' familes.
2. The same faker just happened to be present at the victim's home at the exact instant they were released.
3. The victims looked (to many people) strangely proud and smug just seconds after their release.
4. The victims received better treatment than almost any other hostages ever taken in Iraq.
5. In their first TV interview, they parrot almost verbatim the "what to say to interviewers" speech taught to extremist anti-war activists.
6. One of the victim's fathers "thanks the entire Arab world," while the victims themselves essentially blame the United States.

...and so on. Draw your own conclusions.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I know there is great reluctance to blame apparent victims, but we must remain very vigilant of events like this because they will become more and more common as propaganda ploys if they go unchallenged -- whether or not they are fake

First donate to charities, then pay a ransom on your taxes. Makes sense.

Fuck all NGOs.

#81 Fabio C.

Eurotrash refers to actual Eurotrash. Just like Ugly American refers to ugly Americans. I know that there are people in Europe, who against the odds, try to fight terrorism and not regurgitate Chomsky talking points.

Has the world gone totally f'in mad? Maybe the hostage takers should start asking for weapons and ammo instead of boring old cash...

It's easy to question and dismiss the decision the Italians took when it's not your fucking relatives who are about to be chopped in little pieces in front of the entire world.

The good news is...they will now focus on Italians for a while. I mean, c'mon...go where the money is...

And now the disclaimer...

I do NOT wish harm upon any innocent citizen of Italy.

Occasional Reader (#79)

#72 is not me so I'm a little confused. In any event, I'm not saying that there's evidence of a set-up, but there is something about this story in general and the two women in particular that I don't trust. Call it intuition.

Intellectually, you don't pay a ransom. We all know that. To be honest, if it were my daughter who was captured, I would steal to pay twice as much.

Solution: Cast away the constraining PC bullshit and let our armies beat the middle east into surrender. It worked with Germany, it worked with Japan, and while many innocent people may die, in the long run, there will less death and destruction.

Hum, Zombie77

The fact that Nahoko Takato knew 'ahead of time' that the hostage were to be released is not really surprising. (So did also the AP photographer and the police officer mentioned in the pic caption :
while Simona's sister Elena, second from left, is embraced by a plainclothes police officer, upon hearing the news of the release of the two Italian hostages )

I guess that the news didn't broke all of a sudden, but rather that there had been informations that they should be free, that a deal was almost done and so on... Thus the photographer....

As for the fact that Nahoko Takato was there, I don't know. It is not unlikely that she and Simona knew each other. I guess there are not that much female aid volunteer in Bagdad those days, and that they tend to congregate/socialize.

Rather unconclusive, i'd say.

Let's hope the released hostages don't wind up assassinated. Because if they were, the ransom money would have been for nothing.

Occasional Reader (#85),

Can you give, or has there been any, explanation as to why these kidnapped woman were "treated reasonably well"?

For a start they are women which puts them at best as second class citizens add into the bargain that they are infidel woman and that puts them somewhere around black dogs with diarrhea.

Their islamic kindred are keeping Bigley locked in a cage, forced to beg for his life on video. Think they're reading him passages from the koran and are going to give him new clothes when he's released?

These girls are playing us for fools.