LGF

-RetweetYou Don't Need A Staged Debate To See the Future

Fri, Oct 1, 2004 at 7:58:54 am PDT

Isn’t it a little silly to talk about who “won” the presidential debate? Let’s face it; there was nothing to win. What we saw last night was a prime time variety show, with no resemblance at all to a real debate. The candidates were specifically prohibited from engaging directly with each other, and did nothing more than answer softball questions from Jim Lehrer. And what’s the point of having an audience if they’re supposed to pretend they aren’t there?

In my opinion, nobody “won,” although Kerry probably helped his battered image slightly by not collapsing into a quivering mass of orange Jell-o.

But the important points about John Kerry’s foreign policy stood out in sharp relief: he believes he can protect America by outsourcing our defense, by retreating from Iraq as soon as possible, by ceasing research into nuclear weapons, and by sending nuclear fuel to Iran. Kerry’s been preaching failure and appeasement his whole life, and now he wants to bring this mindset into the Oval Office.

Daniel Henninger says You Don’t Need A Staged Debate To See the Future.

The outlines of this hardest of all policy issues were evident earlier this week at a conference on nuclear oversight held at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington. John Bolton, the State Department’s point man on proliferation, opened by saying that the Bush administration wants the International Atomic Energy Agency to stop temporizing over Iran and refer the problem of its nuclear program to the U.N. Security Council.

He noted that it is technically possible for Iran to remain in compliance with the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty, then suddenly renounce the NPT and “breakout” with its own bomb. Rather than wait for that moment, the administration wants a Security Council referral, which would elevate the problem politically.

Speaking from the Democratic side of the divide, the Carnegie Endowment’s Joseph Cirincione defended the IAEA’s inspection process and said the agency isn’t referring Iran to the Security Council because the Bush administration’s handling of Iraq’s WMD created a problem of “trust and credibility.”

Gary Milhollin of the Wisconsin Project on Nuclear Arms Control reduced the status quo to three lines: “You cannot verify a lie. You cannot successfully inspect a country that lies. You come to a dead end.” But it is only the policymakers of the civilized world who come to the dead end. Beyond the dead end and deep inside the dark, trail-less forest, the Irans and North Koreas of the world are assembling a bomb and the missiles to deliver it. Current “policy” won’t stop them. What will?

The Bush administration filed its answer two Septembers ago with the National Security Strategy, a 31-page document whose most famous word was “preemption.” It said, “In an age where the enemies of civilization openly and actively seek the world’s most destructive technologies, the United States cannot remain idle while dangers gather.”

Preemption now is wholly associated with the Iraq war. But whether to act preemptively again—or not—is almost certain to re-emerge over the next four years with another country that we know but cannot verify is building a nuclear weapon.

Just this week in an interview with Fox’s Bill O’Reilly, Mr. Bush said about Iran’s bomb program, “We’ve made it clear, our position is that they won’t have a nuclear weapon.” Diplomacy, he said, was the first option, but “all options are on the table.”

The Democrats? The Kerry campaign’s published statement on Iran proposes “a global effort” which would buy back Iran’s spent nuclear fuel. “If Iran does not accept this offer, their true motivations will be clear.” He then would “push” the IAEA to “to discern the full extent of Iran’s nuclear program.” And then the statement’s final sentence: “If this process fails, we must lead the effort to ensure that the IAEA takes this issue to the Security Council for action.” And after that, what?

Advertisement

139 comments

  • Comments are open and unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.
  • Obscene, abusive, silly, or annoying remarks may be deleted, but the fact that particular comments remain on the site in no way constitutes an endorsement of their views by Little Green Footballs.
  • Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, "First!"
  • Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.
  • Disagreement and debate are welcome, but insults and abuse are not, and may cause your account to be blocked.
  • REMEMBER: posting comments at LGF is a privilege, not a right. Abuse that privilege, and your account will be blocked.

Hide comments | Jump to bottom

1 V the K  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 5:59:57am

Debate Captions - For those of you who are into that sort of thing.

2 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:00:45am
3 Jamie  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:01:51am

Funny debate video. (Real Media, nothing unsafe for work)

4 csva  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:02:17am

Per kerry we need another 20 resolutions before we can contemplate using force. besides, the french and the germans need to pump up their economies with weapons sales.

5 Jefe  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:04:26am

Uhh, Mr. Kerry, if we wait until your process fails, it's too late.

6 beblebrox  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:05:39am

Truly frightening. Those who would rule out force from the onset pose no threat or deterrent to those determined to commit evil. Why doesn't the left get this? Naivete? Stupidity? or nerfaious intent?

7 manny  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:05:46am

OT: Anyone have an email address where we can send thank-you and get-well wishes to Tony Blair?

8 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:06:16am
9 Elcid  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:06:38am

Lileks sums it best...

"Here’s the thing. I’d really like to live in John Kerry’s world. It seems like such a rational, sensible place, where handshakes and signatures have the power to change the face of the planet. If only the terrorists lived there as well."

[Link: www.lileks.com...]

10 beblebrox  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:07:20am

Follow the process. This is the same mentality that created such bastions of streamlined efficiency as the DMV.

/sarcasm

11 GoatGuy  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:08:22am

Eating their own...

Pakistani Sunni's bomb Shia Mosque - 16+ return to Allah

Sorry if it is a bit off-topic, but it seems so Charles don't you know?

GoatGuy

12 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:08:56am
13 American Infidel[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:09:13am
14 scott in east bay  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:09:37am

I think Bush won on substance, if not style. Kerry looked reasonably polished, never mind what he actually said. Some viewers will make up their minds on the demeanor of the two alone. There were times when Bush looked angry, exasperated, sullen, impatient, etc. To some that will be a turn off. But if you listened to what Bush said, he did a pretty good job of making his major point - that we are fighting a new and different war and diplomacy from 1950 won't cut it anymore. The big alliances are over, and new ones are being created. Old allies slip away and new ones are found. I sure don't think anyone could think that Bush varies in his mesage.

15 Jamie  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:10:00am

# 12,

C'mon. Don't you have any sense of humor?

16 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:10:10am
17 BingoBunny  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:10:19am

In a Kerry administration.. 6 American cities get nuked..Question Has the Gobal threshold been crossed..how long will he spend in UN debate sessions.Does it depend on whether Franch is on our side or not..I know what Bush would do. kerry seems to need some one else to tell him what to do.

18 Eagle  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:10:31am
The candidates were specifically prohibited from engaging directly with each other, and did nothing more than answer softball questions from Jim Lehrer.

This is true. But it was telling that even these softball questions caused a few blunders. Kerry esp with the "Global Test", and the "nuclear gifts to Iran".

Would an "in your face" debate have produced the same result? Would it have even been coherent?

The hardcore on left and right won't be influenced by last night. I can only see this affecting the 'undecided's.

19 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:10:38am
20 Cousin Dave  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:10:55am
21 J.D.  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:11:08am
...Many people will say — have already said, in fact, because the bloggers never sleep — that because John Kerry stayed in the ring with the president for 90 minutes and didn't get knocked out, he won the night. They say Kerry came off as the president's equal, and that can only help him.

Well, it didn't hurt, but I don't know that it helped very much. That's not because Kerry didn't acquit himself well. He did — though I think he handed Bush an issue when he complained that American research into a nuclear bunker-buster bomb was bad because we are trying to prevent nuclear proliferation.

Message to John Kerry: The United States is not a nuclear proliferator. We are researching that weapon because it might help us take out nuclear sites like the ones you say you're so worried about in Iran and North Korea — or at least scare the pants off people who start playing the proliferation game.

But that's a matter for the blogs and the chat shows to take up over the coming days. ...


JUDGING THE DEBATE: A WASTED NIGHT - Podhoretz

22 Jefe  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:11:38am

#9 Elcid

He's on fire today. My favorite part:

Who do you fear the most? A) The magnificent concert of allies in the UN, some of whom you’ve bought off, who are desperate to prove their legitimacy by prolonging the process into the 22nd century. B) The United States, Britain and Australia, who have several hundred thousand troops on your border and frankly are in no mood to put up your crap any longer

Hmmm, or is it:

Item one: get over the frickin’ Jews, people. They’re not going anywhere, and if they do they’re taking all of you with them.

So many choices...

23 Goldie  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:11:38am

I agree. As a lifelong Dem, I'd love to find a reason to like Kerry. I've had my fingers crossed for a while that he'll turn into what we need - for example, start running to the right of Bush on the war. (Hope against hope...)

Kerry managed to come across as not pathetic last night, which is big change from past performances. His tone, his posture, etc. - he even seems to have become somewhat less orange for the occasion.

But his policy ideas! Ugh! Bilateral talks with North Korea? Investigating further to decide if Iran's nuclear intentions are truly peaceful? What was he talking about? For a supposed man of deep understanding, he sounded like a know-nothing undergraduate who's just discovered Marx.

How about the difference on nukes - Bush thinks terrorists shouldn't have them, Kerry thinks no one should, including us (and presumably Israel). Considering how many parties already have them, this sounded like a pipe dream at best, French-style suicide at worst.

And Iraq - who knows if Bush is ever really going to start kicking ass properly there (maybe this morning he has), but Kerry's grand idea is a global summit? Why, so Kofi Annan and France and Syria can tell us about how it was wrong to liberate Iraq while taking out our most dangerous enemy (and thus the West's)?

Ridiculous.

24 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:12:10am
25 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:12:26am
26 Colt  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:12:32am

OT: Stupidest AP title of the day:

Bin Laden Deputy Purportedly Seeks Strikes

27 Poitiers-Lepanto  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:12:36am

The plan of Kerry is clear: give to the rest of the world total control over America.

He spoke well, but what he said is just shit.

28 Victoria (VA girl)  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:13:36am

#2 song_and_dance_man

Even though most would give the debate to Kerry, I believe the giving is based on visuals, and not on what was actually said.

I couldn't agree with you more, but I fear that looks are what's important to many folks. Last night, Kerry either told half-truths, down right lies or never answered the question directly...but he sounded good doing it. Will your average undecided voter try and educate him/herself and try to find the truth? I think people still have faith in the MSM and, therefore, won't know the facts.

29 American Infidel[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:13:57am
30 GW  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:14:53am

My impression was that Kerry won the battle of style but Bush won on substance. I wish GWB had attacked on the many falsehoods Kerry put out there, such as taking away resources in Afghanistan. (Gen. Franks hit back on Fox by saying the Afghan forces were lacking nothing that was needed.) Seemed to me that Bush wanted to say so much, he didn't know where to start and by the time he made his first point, time was up and he was not able to continue on his track.
My fear is that uninformed voters take what Kerry and the Dems say as fact, when it's all basically based on the BS that's been spouted since Florida 2000.

31 J.D.  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:14:59am

#29 American Infidel
See Charles' new post.

32 Miss Trixie  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:15:08am

Once again Sena-taur (or sena-tard) Kerry has his head clearly up his (*)


So what else is new?

33 axiom  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:15:18am

OT: Did Kerry Write His Own After Action Report

Thomas Lipscomb of the Annenberg Center reports that the process of elimination leaves only Kerry as the officer that could have written the last after action report that rewarde Kerry is third purple heart, the bronze star and the subsequent qualification to go home as a result of the three purple hearts.

Lipscomb says this supports the SBVT claim.

34 Eagle  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:15:55am

@29 AI

Ok...Where is this 'global test'???


Answer

35 Luigi  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:17:44am

You might call this good news. The new Ayman al-Zawahiri tape has this curious statement:

"We must not wait more ... or we will be devoured one country after the other," the speaker said. "The youth must not wait for anyone and must begin resisting from now, and take experience and lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan and Chechnya."


This may presage a new attack. I hope not. Whether or not it does, it speaks from a bunker mentality. It speaks from desperation and it seems to take defeat for granted.

36 Earl  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:18:35am

My read of the NSS suggests that the US will act unilaterlally before year-end to rid Iran of its nuclear capabilities. The Iraqi example suggests no credible response by the UNSC.

Iran has no need of a civilian nuclear program. It has petroleum and gas reserves to far exceed its domestic electricity production requirements- forever. The Iranian nuclear program exists only to threaten Israel, elevate Iran into the preeminent regional power- and to supply rogue regimes and terror groups with the ultimate WMD.

I've also posted this here before- I'm not convinced that the MAD doctrine is applicable when analyzing the mullocracy. MAD assumed rationality at the brink- but the mullahs bring their own nihilistic, death-affirming logic to the issue. They hit Israel in a nuclear jihad, and incinerate five million Jews. They take the same or greater numbers of casualties. But the Iranian land mass is far larger than Israel, plus Iran's population is 15 times the size. And all those hapless dead Iranians are just fulfilling the communal obligation of all muslims to effect jihad against dar al-harb. And Judea and Samaria are once again united in dar al-islam.

37 BingoBunny  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:19:08am

#28

In Kerry's world u take it where ever its not accepted and then u talk more.

38 Tish  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:19:34am

I guess a lot of what people are judging is in how the men presented themselves.

I didn't watch the debate, I just read the transcript. All I had to judge by were their words.

I thought the President clearly outclassed his opponent - his comments were substantive, concrete, without wishful thinking.

To be fair, Senator Kerry doesn't have the real-world experience of making world-altering decisions, so it would probably be unfair to expect him to be as concrete. However, none of his comments gave me the impression that he understands the difficulty of managing the strongest, wealthiest, and most diverse country in the world - let alone managing it in a time of war. With all due respect and honor for his service in Vietnam, 4 months on a Swift boat does not make a President!

I am also concerned when he speaks of "building alliances", for at least 2 reasons.

1. Just who does he want to build alliance with? Those countries that only want to see us fail? Those countries that have little to offer but good wishes? Those countries run by regimes completely antithetical to the politics and policies of the US?

2. Countries enter into alliance to protect their own interests - it is not an altruistic act. What will these new "allies" expect from us? What can we expect from them?


What can I say? Kerry worries me, because of his lack of grasp of reality! However much I disagree with Bush on various issues, on the main issue - national security - I trust him.

Colon Bowel, on the other hand...

39 10th Amendment  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:19:34am

The two-against-one debate

I was quite depressed after last night's "debate." It was so one-sided. Jim Lehrer only asked questions challenging President Bush's record, not a single one about all the anti-military votes John Kerry has cast in his 20 years in the Senate, nor any about his anti-war protests. Wouldn't the American People be better able to judge for themselves John Kerry's worthiness to accept the job of Commander in Chief if there had been full disclosure, instead of this apparent cover-up of his record? Two against one -- no wonder the President looked so defensive as the debate wore on. He was being attacked by BOTH his opponent and the moderator.

I was also disappointed in President Bush's performance. He didn't seem to be completely in his game. Last night shouldn't have happened at all -- this election is too important for President Bush to "be a good sport" and give the underdog a leg up -- but since it did, President Bush should have been far more commanding and given Kerry a knock-out punch. He missed many opportunities.

40 American Infidel[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:19:53am
41 Buck  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:20:03am

I think Bush is planning a rope a dope.

There are three debates, and ONLY the last one counts at all.

Sure you don't want to get knocked out in the first two, but you should only deliver the most punishment in the last round.

Until then, just seem unprepared, and calm. Let Kerry hit with alll he has. He will exaust all of his arguments in the first two, and Bush will be prepared with the knock out punches in the third round.

42 10th Amendment  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:20:20am

Kerry: War on Terror = War on al-Qaeda only

Listening to John Kerry last night made it clear to me that John Kerry does not believe in the war on terror at all, only a war on al-Qaeda. President Bush declared war on all terrorist organizations with global reach. Kerry seems to want to pare that back to a focus only on al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden.

That's the difference between a Sept 10th and Sept 11th person. Kerry wants to go back to only prosecuting those who attack us, which, presumably means, we have to have another Sept 11th from EACH terrorist group before we go ater it.

43 Goldie  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:20:42am

35 Luigi

Good find. We're not hearing much about a paper tiger anymore, are we?

44 moonsbreath  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:20:49am

In simple terms...

1) Kerry looked presidential.

2) Bush is the President.

45 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:21:12am
46 dustyroadguy  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:21:49am

I repeat:

W thinks TV polictical debates are bull$hit and a waste of time...

W thinks kerry is full of bull$hit and talking with him is a waste of time...

W's demeanor refected those feelings...

Actions speak louder than words...

47 justdanny  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:22:30am

Seeing that fool on stage with my Presdent was too much to handle, I had to turn it off.

Knowing what I know about how a Kerry Presidency would endanger nephews and nieces, my brother and sisters, my cousins, -

Knowing how it would endanger my country for all time, effectively negating my families sacrifices over the last 300 years, -

Knowing how it would endanger my online Israeli friends and all good Israelis and all good Jews everywhere, -

Knowing how it would endanger all free peoples on this planet, -

Knowing how it would endanger my friends living under jIslamist filth dictatorships in Iran and the ME, -

I am angry this pathetic useless non-debate happened.

If this bizarre excuse for a debate, this ignorant made for tv style over substance bullshit farce hurts my President and all those I have mentioned above, I may give up any interest in anything outside my tiny little life for good.

Charles wrote,

Let’s face it; there was nothing to win.

You're right Charles, and everything to lose.

48 thinkingmom  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:23:29am

#1 V the K,

I especially liked #s 4,5,6.

4. (Kerry)"Go choke on a pretzel, peasant-hugger..."

wiping the tears from my eyes.

49 moonsbreath  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:23:43am

SKerry mentioned Kofi a few times, but I had a brain freeze going on, does anyone else remember what he was referring to? Is Kofi the principal?

50 axiom  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:24:18am

#36 Earl

The problem with Iranian civilian nuclear plans is that the NNPT is supposed to guarantee that current nuclear nations will support domesit civilian nuclear demands of a signatory nations so as to avoid the creation of the nuclear missile capabilities.

I think Iran wants nuclear energy to build a Navy. No Islamic country is even close to having a Navy that any non-islmaic power considers threatening whatsoever.

51 GW  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:24:22am

#45 & #46

That's why I love this site. You think something and go to post it, but blammo, others have already said the same thing without prodding or collusion. The truth just sticks out doesn't it...

52 axiom  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:28:38am

OT: Danish Authorities considering sending released gitmo Muslim back to Gitmo

Daily Telegraph Story

Apparently another Muslim "rebel/activisit/militant" has mouthed off that he is going to Chechnya to fight Russia. RoPMA™

53 genard  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:29:17am

Message to world: The IAEA El Baradei thinks that the Iranians should have the Bomb as a counterbalance to the Israelis and other western powers who are so arrogant as to think that they should be monopolized by the present Nuclear Club. Third World, particularly Muslim, countries have the right to determine their own best interest. El Baradei is actively working for proliferation.

The UN refuses to consider the issue of mullah atomics at the Security Council level because it is controlled by nations who want to defeat Israel and ultimately to neutralize the United States.

54 Victoria (VA girl)  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:29:28am

#45 song_and_dance_man

I think most of America has made up it's mind. And Kerry the Chameleon(pale, orange, adjusted tan) did nothing to help himself other than to put on notice he knows how to perform for television.

How true...the man's had a lot of practice with his Vietnam (did you know he was there, BTW) reinactments and all.


#42 10th Amendment

Listening to John Kerry last night made it clear to me that John Kerry does not believe in the war on terror at all, only a war on al-Qaeda.

I'd go so far as to say he believes the war is only with OBL. (I'm not even convinced he's still above ground and breathing.)

55 Doss  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:29:47am

OT:
A heartwarming story about Bush's inherent decency and kindness.
Scroll down to "So If Bush Is Hitler..."
Compare this story with Kerry's calling his Secret Service guy a SOB when Kerry fell on his skis and the way Kerry blames any of his f-ups on his aides.

56 Jocund Mavis  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:29:51am

Lurch's money quote for me was when he referred to UBL as a criminal er ... er... cough...cough..terrorist.

This one little gaffe reveals everything that needs to be known about the security posture the US would be saddled with under a Kerry administration.

Bush missed and opportunity to hammer him there.

57 dazoid81  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:29:51am

I was listening last night on the radio. I thought Bush came out of the gate really strong, and I didn't think Kerry was going to be able to keep up with him. But as the night wore on, Bush slowed down a lot, he seemed to get flustered more. At the same time, Kerry stayed pretty constant throughout, though he seemed to have trouble staying on topic as time passed.

I was really impressed by how strong the President came out, but 90 minutes later I hardly felt like I even remembered it. To me, there were no clear winner last night. Kerry was wildly flailing around answers, Bush seemed to get hung up on repeating Kerry flipflops and showing us how resolute he is.

58 V the K  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:30:58am

Thanks Infidel, Colt, Thinkingmom.

Gotta confess, I didn't watch the debate. I took the boys out to buy some new clothes for school (weather's turning cooler) and then Olive Garden. From what I hear, I didn't miss much.

59 metroman  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:31:19am

We gave nuclear material and technology to North Korea so that they would not attempt to develop nuclear weapons under the Clinton ( Democratic ) administration.

When George Bush became president he looked at the situation closely and found that North Korea had violated the agreement and *had* started developing nuclear weapons.

John Kerry: "North Korea developed nuclear weapons under George Bush's watch."

Translation: "It's George Bush's fault North Korea has nuclear weapons."

Now John Kerry wants to be president and give nuclear technology and materials to Iran. A despicable theocratic government that is nowhere close to a government the American people would choose to live under.

Why don't we just give all of our enemies in the world all of our technology, money, time, inheritance, everything, just so they will be nice to us.

60 jaybird  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:33:36am

Hey. who won the debate won't be definitively known until about 30 minutes from now when Lush Rimbaugh comes on.

61 Gordon  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:33:48am

Charles says:

Isn’t it a little silly to talk about who “won” the presidential debate?

I didn't watch it, but Charles' response must mean that Kerry kicked Bush's butt. If Bush had won, Charles would be crowing like a rooster at 5 A.M.

62 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:34:34am

Re: Kerry's comments on Dafur.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...] -

Sudan has agreed to the deployment of some 3,500 extra African troops in its war-torn region of Darfur.

The soldiers, along with some 800 police officers, will be tasked with monitoring a shaky ceasefire between rebels and the government.

However, Sudan is stopping the existing 300-strong peace team from doing its job, a journalist who spent time with them has told the BBC.

The troops will still not be allowed to use force against combatants.

The African Union have confirmed that Sudan has agreed to reinforcements but could not confirm numbers and said nothing had been signed.

UN officials say they hope the new troops coukld be on the ground by the end of the month.

While it's not all rosy there and Sudan continues to bob and weave in avoiding fulfilling its committments to its people to stop the genocide, the Bush approach may be working - there are more troops moving in there. Now, it's not as quick as I'd like, since every day of delay means more dead Sudanese, but it's far better than waiting for worldwide consensus at the UN to act - cold day in hell before that happens on anything).

63 HUSKER  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:35:29am

I have a question for the Senator: Senator Kerry, you have been pounding this issue that you are not a flip-flopper. You state that you have always had a clear position on Iraq. Has your ideological stance on this changed? What I mean to ask, Senator, is has the public opinion swayed your inner beliefs?


Kerry: No! I have said it fifty times and I'll say it again. I have had this stance on Iraq, my ideology HAS NOT CHANGED one iota!


One last question Senator: Would you say, then, that these flip-flops aren't actual changes in your core beliefs but rather an attempt to appease those who happen to be standing in front of you at the time. For examole when you told auto workers that you owned an "American Made SUV!" you went to a environmental rally later and said you would never own one of those gas guzzlers. The later said to more auto workers "A big honking SUV, built by you huys!" Then later said, "Well my family owns it, I don't" When you acted like a HAWK during the Democratic debates against Dean to get the nomination, "If you do not feel that WE ARE SAFER WITHOUT SADDAM YOU DO NOT HAVE THE CREDIBILITY TO BE PRESIDENT!" Senator Kerry, if these are not ideological changes, are they just pandoring? Senator Kerry do your core beliefs flip-flop or do you just say what you want people to think you think? Senator Kerry? Senator Kerry? Senator?!

64 scoreboard44  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:36:02am

Sitting here reading this, as a Bush and GOP supporter (card carrying Republican) I can only say that I was quite "Pissed Off" that that last night was the best that my guy could give?

He looked tired, slightly confused and ill prepared. WHAT happened to all the pre-debate practice that was hyped so much?

He better get his act together before the next debate on the domestic agenda.

AND SINCE WHEN DID RUSSIA AND NUC-LER PROLIFERATION BECOME A QUESTION? DON'T WE HAVE ENOUGH ON OUR PLATES ALREADY?!?

65 BPP  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:38:16am
Isn’t it a little silly to talk about who “won” the presidential debate?

It's only silly when your man lost. And your man lost, Charles. Big time, as Dick Cheney would say. If Bush were perceived to be ther winner, you would have had ten posts dissecting every delicious moment.

What we saw last night was a prime time variety show, with no resemblance at all to a real debate. The candidates were specifically prohibited from engaging directly with each other, and did nothing more than answer softball questions from Jim Lehrer.

On the contrary, most observers thought it was the best presidential debate in years. And far from just reciting canned speeches (of course there was plenty of that) there were also effective exchanges between the two, sometimes going back two or three times, all within the allowed format.

In my opinion, nobody “won,” although Kerry probably helped his battered image slightly by not collapsing into a quivering mass of orange Jell-o.

Admit it Charles, it would take Bush bursting into tears before you would ever admit that Kerry won. And as for collapsing into a quivering mass of Jell-O, I think Bush came far closer. He came across as tired, cranky, petulant - unpresidential. Unable to defend the substance of his policies, he resorted again and again to mindless charges about "mixed signals". A mixed signal is promising to clean out Fallujah and then pulling back at the last moment. Nothing Kerry has said has come close to that level of confusion and indeciion.

But the important points about John Kerry’s foreign policy stood out in sharp relief: he believes he can protect America by outsourcing our defense, by retreating from Iraq as soon as possible, by ceasing research into nuclear weapons, and by sending nuclear fuel to Iran.

Spin away as you must, but no one who actually listened to what Kerry said, as opposed to the Bush/Cheney talking points, could possible believe that Kerry intends to "outsource our defense" or that he intends to "retreat" from Iraq. In fact the plans put forth by both candidates are pretty similar. The real question is who do you trust to carry it out competently. When the issue is framed that way, there's no contest.

Furthermore, it is on Iran where Bush's policies have most weakened us. All the arguments that were made about going to war with Iraq - pre-empt the threat, WMD, links with terrorists, rogue regime etc - are doubly true of Iran, which was and is by far the more dangerous of the two countries. But we are totally impotent in the face of this threat due to the tying up of military assets in Iraq and, more importantly, the catastrophic loss of credibility we have if we tried to rally the rest of the world to head off this threat militarily.

66 dustyroadguy  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:39:27am

GW...great minds think alike


W is on fox now...live...using global test...etc ripping kerry a new one!

67 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:40:19am

Cousin Dave:


Someone, somewhere suggested that the original "60 Minutes" crew look down on the Wednesday night "2" show as watering down the frnachise.


I believe it. "Shouldn't have been doing the job the other candidate should have been doing himself".

Slam.


Hewitt is probably a liberal Democrat himself, but at least he has standards.

68 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:42:13am

v the k: excellent captioning. As usual!

69 Furious J  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:42:22am
Furthermore, it is on Iran where Bush's policies have most weakened us.

And Kerry's plan is to give the mullahs nuclear materials.

Among all the reasons not to vote for Kerry, that is numero uno.

70 metroman  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:42:47am

Not so #61 Gordon

Because the question of who won is subjective and has political bias built into the answer. If you are a Kerry supporter Kerry won. If you are a Bush supporter, Bush won.

I think that the importance of the debates centers around the unrealistic future that Kerry has waved in front all of us. A future of Americans installing nuclear reactors in Iran, a governement we have not had relations with since the Carter administration. Americans working side by side with the German, French, North Korean governments. Americans living with tax burdens that have never been seen before. Federal government run businesses, health care, schools. Military retreat from the middle east. Reducing the war on terror to police actions. And all of this with a majority of republicans in the house and senate.

Good day.

71 dustyroadguy  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:43:59am

BPP...this one is just for U

W thinks TV polictical debates are bull$hit and a waste of time...

W thinks kerry is full of bull$hit and talking with him is a waste of time...

W's demeanor refected those feelings...

Actions speak louder than words...

your becoming a waste of time...

72 Enginerd  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:44:20am

#41 Buck

I completely agree. I was initially ticked that Bush did not do as good as I would have liked. Kerry did come off a bit more planned out. As far as substance goes, I still think Bush was slightly ahead. That still bothered me though...till I came to the same conclusion that you have.

The last debate is the only one that will really stick with the "undecided" folks. As to who won last night...I still think Bush won. Kerry could really only claim a win if he killed Bush...Bush could claim a win if he either killed Kerry or kept things a draw...either way, he should still be ahead in the next round of polls.

73 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:46:08am

#67 - ed moran:

You're right. I know I've said it over on my coverage of Rathergate. There was a longstanding belief among some of the oldtimers at 60 Minutes that the new program would water down the product.

Now that Rathergate may have taken down CBS News, and not just 60 Minutes as a brand, if not as a reliable news source, the skepticism of the 60 Minutes crew was well placed. I think Hewitt was among those who argued against calling it 60 Minutes, because he must have seen something in Rather's character that gave him second thoughts.

74 scoreboard44  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:46:38am

I don't agree on this being one of the best debates in years. Any of us who follow this stuff know that the substance wasn't there. Just fluff and a lot of twisting with the truth and denying that you are whom you are.

With that said. Does anyone remember long ago when McCain, Liberman and Kerry where pushing the Bush administration into this Iraq mess.

Am I insane or do I remember Kerry being apart of this and am I just wrong?

75 AlanC  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:46:41am

One question I've asked and never had answered is this:

Does JFK support building nuclear power plants in the US, where we import much of the gas & oil for electricity generation? If not, why does he support it Iran, even to the point of giving them fuel, when they have ample domestic petroleum reserves?

Anyone?

76 mpax  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:46:59am

I just went for a tuna on rye at my local mid-Manhattan deli. A couple of guys were enthusing about Kerry's performance in the debate and I, of course, couldn't stand silent. I had to concede that Bush' performance was not strong (it was really weak and repetitious) but hit them with the point that Kerry's performance was just that, a performance, belieing a lifelong record of anti-defense systems votes, appeasement and discourse with America's enemies and his own record of words in this campaign cycle. Specifying a few lies and misrepresentations by Kerry during the debate wasn't hard.
The two guys had no rebuttal, except to point out that Kerry looked presidential. One of them said "Halliburton" a couple of times, as if that's why we're in Iraq. I threw back "Oil-for-Food" as one reason the UN and France and germany were loathe to act on all those resolutions which Saddam was defying with impunity.
In the end, they said neither of us would ever convince the other. I agreed, but pointed out that they had not offered anything except Kerry's debate performance to try and persuade me. I think I had given them some good, irrefutable arguements against Kerry.
I'd better study up on my facts. I feel as if Bush's supporters are left to do the real work which Bush failed to do last night.

77 Furious J  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:47:21am
your becoming a waste of time...

Becoming... ;-)

Actually, shills serve their purpose. They spout talking points for us to refute. LGF has been picking up a lot of newbies and lurkers since the CBS memo thing (which, remember, BPP initially argued were legit), and this is our opportunity to educate them.

78 czarernie  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:51:12am

I was a little down this am till I saw GW in Allentown say the "F" word. My mood is much improved.

Dirty Stinkun' Mooolas

79 genard  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:51:57am

#61 Gordon

I didn't watch it, but Charles' response must mean that Kerry kicked Bush's butt. If Bush had won, Charles would be crowing like a rooster at 5 A.M.

It's hard to tell who "won." But pundaland is giving Kerry the edge on style.

Personally I think Bush's simple statement of steadfastness and clarity "won," but Kerry presented himself smoothly enough as to cause people to ignore his message. Kerry said "I'm the right man to win this wrong war." He did not quite say he was for the other side, as he once may have for Ho chi Mihn, but he did suggest that the Zarqawi murders and mayhem were about what Bush deserved for having gone in.

80 Victoria (VA girl)  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:52:31am

#76 mpax

I'd better study up on my facts. I feel as if Bush's supporters are left to do the real work which Bush failed to do last night.

Yeah...no kidding.

81 jaybird  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:55:19am

#74 scoreboard44

I don't agree on this being one of the best debates in years. Any of us who follow this stuff know that the substance wasn't there. Just fluff and a lot of twisting with the truth and denying that you are whom you are.

I agree. Very repititive too. And one of Bush's problems was that he kept repeating his weaker material. He had far better ammo against Kerry and general themes that he should have kept repeating.

That said, Bush didn't do all that badly. In 1960 people who watched that debate on TV thought Kennedy won, and those who listened on the radio thought Nixon won. I suspect that the same would be true here too. If one examines the words that came out of their mouths, Bush won. But in terms of overall appearance, Kerry won.

82 Mr Pol  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:56:19am

nodroG, BPP... too many trolls. Shabbat Shalom and Moadim Lesimha.

83 HUSKER  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 6:57:02am

BPP

Kerry's credibility is shot. November 3, when we're all yelling, "SCOREBOARD!" Kerry will be standing alone at a debate podium telling crickets that if he's elected, he'll give each one ten million dollars. It doesn't matter what his position is on nuclear proliferation or the econmomy or "FOREIGN POLICY" or whatever. What matters is that tomorrow. Eloquent S#!T is still S#!T.

84 Beagle  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:02:35am

#65 BPP

If only credibility made nations (which trade with, arm, have strategic agreements with, and buy oil from the mullahs) see things our way. If if's and but's were candy and nuts, oh what a merry holiday season it would be.

Read up on which side our European 'allies' are on before commenting further. Bat Ye'or would be a good start. The Europeans (for decades) have had this clever plan to side with the Arabs. They will go down hard in the long run, but not before making people like you feel smart for mentioning 'credibility'. Nations fundamentally don't care about abstract feelings or judgments like credibility, but they do care about their preceived interests and alliances.

If you tried to learn things outside Democratic talking points you could be very learned. You obviously have writing skills. Partisan politics and Bush's personality are not as important as you think they are.

85 HUSKER  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:03:08am

LIBERAL: Kerry's view on "FOREIGN POLICY" is right on!

Conservative: How so?

LIBERAL: The way he puts the word "failed" in front of it.

Next day(Kerry's stance is completely opposite)

SAME LIBERAL: Kerry's view on "FOREIGN POLICY" is right on!

Conservative: How so?

LIBERAL: He still puts the word "failed" in front of it.


WTF!

86 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:06:01am

Somewhat OT, But yesterday's San Diego Union Tribune gave a glowing review to Going Upriver: The Long War of John Kerry. Apparently, anything anti-Bush automatically gets at least three stars from the reviewer, since F 911, Control Room and others got four stars.

Here's the money quote:

The words of those who fought and protested with him, now girded by decades of reflection, decimates the current campaign against his past service. Cheif pit bull is John O'Neill, once used by the Nixon White House to smear Kerry, and still embittered along with other who seem stuck in primitive vengance.

I missed most of the action last night, but I'd like to say 'Hi' to any of the DU/Kos/McAullife poseurs who are with us this morning. I'm a veteran of the US Army, but since I plan on voting Republican, I'm obviously a war criminal and/or GOP hack who seems stuck in a primitive vengence since the military absentee ballots got tossed during the 2000 Florida recount.

87 Jamie  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:09:57am

#70 Metroman,

Not so. Powerline, for example, conceded defeat on this round.

I've taken more than an hour to try to talk myself out of concluding that John Kerry won tonight's debate. I haven't succeeded. Senator Kerry, I think, edged President Bush on substance and, surprisingly, looked better throughout.

From Winds of Change:

Kerry did well in terms of his persona; I went in expecting a pompous windbag and he wasn't one. Bush did less well in persona; fragmented, repetitive

Oxblog? They too were pretty clear that Kerry was the victor:

"ONE LINE ON THE DEBATE: Kerry won. Hands down. By a lot. That's all for now"

And while I often don't see eye-to-eye with Gordon, to suggest that Charles's initial Friday AM post would not have been so dismissive of victory/defeat had Bush performed well is absurd in my opinion.

88 Nancy  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:10:41am

Here is another angle. Bush's "debate style" wasn't as professional as Kerry's but does that really hurt him with the voters?

After all, the greatest con men are those who are glib, charming and articulate.

I am biased but Kerry comes across as affected to me.

89 Jamie  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:11:17am

#86 Fenway Nation,

As long as you're rooting for the Sox, you can vote however you like, and you'll be A-OK with me. :-)

90 Cousin Dave  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:13:51am

#41 Buck:

I think Bush is planning a rope a dope.

I have been thinking along those lines too, for the past several days. Kerry obviously had to come out and give it his all right out of the gate. It wouldn't surprise me if the Bush side decided to hold back some of their best shots until they saw what the Kerry side was going to lead with. Having now seen it, they go do their planning for the next two debates.

(I will also say that I didn't think Kerry was going to tank in the first debate, like Gore did. Kerry has a lot of problems, but one problem he doesn't have is that he doesn't talk down to the audience like Gore does.)

91 abu_garcia  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:16:04am

Face it, Bush's performance was weak. IMO his handlers have sold him on "They can't stand the truth", and he pussy-footed all around the issues. His voice was plaintive, pleading; not leading.

This is an extension of the "Islam is peace", bullshit and like his father's attempt to placate the religious right rather than deal with his obvious differences in '92, it will not sell.

Kerry "believes" in his message, "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time". Don't get me wrong, I don't think he thinks his message is true, he thinks it will get him ELECTED, and he may be right.

IMO America needs a Churchill, someone who is willing to be a voice in the wilderness, willing to be perceived as wrong until events prove him right. I don't see anyone on the political scene like that, maybe Cheney, but he's too old, Bush needs an awakening that may never come.

FWIW, I will vote for a shithouse mouse before I vote for Kerry. Bush will get my vote, but I don't stake a lot on it, he's being too careful.

92 Dirk Diggler  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:16:16am

BPP,

Spin away as you must, but no one who actually listened to what Kerry said, as opposed to the Bush/Cheney talking points, could possible believe that Kerry intends to "outsource our defense" or that he intends to "retreat" from Iraq.

You're sooo right. Kerry doesn't intend to 'retreat' from Iraq. Instead he intends to set arbitrary deadlines for withdrawal (draw down beginning in six months, culminating in a complete American withdrawal in four years) that have no relationship to the realities on the ground in Iraq. Definitely sounds like 'Peace with Honor' Redux to me. I'm curious as to why Kerry is now so obssessed with withdrawing American troops from Iraq. Especially since Kerry's national security advisor said in December of 2003 said that the problem was that there were too few of American troops in Iraq.

“It is very clear the number of troops is inadequate” in Iraq, Beers told reporters in a telephone conference call previewing the speech.

Kerry’s first preference, he said, would be to persuade foreign governments to deploy more troops to help share the burden with Americans.

Well, we now know that divisions of European troops that John Kerry hoped for are not coming.

93 scoreboard44  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:17:08am

What's incredible to me is that Kerry can talk and say something, and at that moment believe that what he just said is what he meant all along.

He sticks by his version of reality. Which is the here and now.

Bush, my man, didn't hit him hard. Didn't have the lines memorized like he should have. Didn't go after the now "beloved" flip flops of John F. Kerry. He had the time, he had the openings, he just couldn't get the words out. And that is SOMETHING HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN WORKED LIKE A DOG INTO DOING. GET THE DAMN WORDS OUT.

Kerry, looked okay, said stuff that wasn't true and said stuff that was.

Rush just said it, style over substance.

Anybody remember that thing I asked earlier about Kerry, McCain and Liberman concerning pushing Bush to go into Iraq? Come on peeps.

94 metroman  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:17:20am

#87 Jamie

You missed my point. In essence I said it doesn't matter. Because what John Kerry said is the future of this country if he is elected president is so far away from any reality that may be it makes his performance irrelevent.

Let me make it very clear. The future John Kerry has defined for America is unrealistic.

In fact it is so unrealistic that I have a title for it:

John Kerry's Imaginary Future for America

95 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:21:55am
96 Jamie  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:24:08am

#94 Metroman,

You said:

Because the question of who won is subjective and has political bias built into the answer. If you are a Kerry supporter Kerry won. If you are a Bush supporter, Bush won.

That simply isn't the case, as those conservative blogs show. It does matter if it moves public opinion, because as we all know, having all the ideas in the world is great, but you can't govern if you don't win.

97 Furious J  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:25:22am
After all, the greatest con men are those who are glib, charming and articulate.

It worked for Clinton.

98 metroman  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:30:09am

#96 Jamie

I did not say that Kerry won. I think Bush won on the one counter point he made concerning North Korea and China's involvement. The content is the important aspect of this debate. And John Kerry is full of hot air and presenting smoke and mirrors to the American people.

99 Jamie  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:31:12am

#95 Same Old Song and Dance,

I'm not trying to "bring down the house". In fact, I suspect I've been posting here far longer than you, and have often found myself in agreement with Charles, especially vis a vis Israel/Palestinians. In posting those links and reactions, I'm demonstrating that only conservatives with blinders see this as anything but a Kerry win. You can read the citations yourself.

The long term impact, if that's your point, remains to be seen. I'll be interested to see if there's any movement in the polls, though I'll be most interested after the final debate. What is of most importance to Kerry is the positive coverage he'll get after this...he should be able to parlay it into a "rebirth" of sorts. Whether you continue to view him as the devil incarnate is somewhat irrelevant.

100 dustyroadguy  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:31:34am

I knew bill Clinton, I worked with bill clinton in office, and senator kerry, your no bill clinton.

clinton had charisma (unfortunately)
kerry has none...

101 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:32:00am
102 Jamie  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:32:19am

#98 Metroman,

Please re-read my post. I did not suggest that you called Kerry the winner.

103 scoreboard44  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:32:20am

I agree with Jamie on the reality thing.


What scares me is the the "Peoples" out there that have the mind set to only sit through a 30 mintues "Friends" re-run are the same people who have not followed what's been going on for the past year except what was offered up in the clips that are shown on the three networks and what was offered up as the end all last night.

Kerry has a perceived reality, that fluctuates. Last night was just one them. The "Peoples" only saw one reality of Kerry's. THE "PEOPLE'S DON'T realize there are others, truths and untruth's, that exist in Kerry's world's.

This scares me also. What will happen because of an uneducated, short attention spanned american public?

Pray that the President learns to speak quickly and coherently before the next debate.

104 abu_garcia  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:32:31am

re: Churchill

I would say to the House, as I said to those who have joined this government: "I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat."
We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, what is our policy? I can say: It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival. Let that be realised; no survival for the British Empire, no survival for all that the British Empire has stood for, no survival for the urge and impulse of the ages, that mankind will move forward towards its goal. But I take up my task with buoyancy and hope. I feel sure that our cause will not be suffered to fail among men. At this time I feel entitled to claim the aid of all, and I say, "come then, let us go forward together with our united strength."
105 scoreboard44  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:33:41am

I wish I could spell.

106 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:35:13am
107 metroman  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:38:00am

#102 Jamie

I did read your post. You need to read my posts very carefully because this is the most important election for this country in our lifetimes. And may be the defining moment for America's future prosperity. You cannot say someone won a debate without doing a high level analysis of everything that was said. Otherwise we may find ourselves four years from now wondering what happened to John Kerry's Imaginary Future for America!

It is very important to look at the issues in depth. NOW!

108 dustyroadguy  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:38:25am

scoreboard

the same people 'who sit through friends' are not going to listen to 'kerry speak' for ninety minutes...they turned the channel after the first thirty minutes...what will happen over the next four weeks is W will use kerry's words in the debates as radar lock and along with his non-verbally challenged supports bomb the hell out of him...wait and see

109 Furious J  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:42:13am

Bill Clinton was a con-man from the get-go. His answer to every problem was to come up with a slogan. On abortion: "Keep it safe, legal, and rare." (Did he do anything to make abortion more rare? No.) On Affirmative Action: "Mend it, don't end it." (He did neither.)

You either saw through Clinton, you bought his line, or you didn't care. And, in the 90's... the suckers and the apathetic were the dominant voting bloc. And that the media still adores Clinton tells you a lot about their gullibility and indifference.

I don't like Bush. I think Bush has succeeded in moving the country much further to the left than Clinton did. But Kerry wants to give nuclear material to the Iranians. You know, it really makes you think that the line that the left wants to destroy America is more than just rhetorical hysteria.

110 Cam  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:43:17am

#91 abu_garcia:

I agree. Mr. Bush's performance was pretty weak. The man is right, and has, for the most part, chosen the right course of action, yet was unable to articulate his successes very well. Hopefully he will improve in the coming debates.

BTW - been fishing lately?

111 Mr Rich  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:46:30am

It seems that Kerry now wants to bring in the coalition of the corrupt. He thinks that all those that countries that where robbing Iraq through the oil for food program will now stand up and do the right thing and help out because he asked them too and because they are now sorry for the past corruption. I'm sure that he does have the support of people like Kofi Annan and Jacques Chirac who President Bush has locked out and who are foaming at the mouth to get there corrupt little hands back into Iraq. Yes it's true, Kerry has a plan.

112 abu_garcia  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:47:11am

#61 nodrog

I didn't watch it, but Charles' response must mean that Kerry kicked Bush's butt. If Bush had won, Charles would be crowing like a rooster at 5 A.M.

Another way to know that Kerry won is the fact that your chicken-shit ass showed up.

113 Dave J.  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:48:11am

Isn’t it a little silly to talk about who “won” the presidential debate?

Translated: Kerry won.

Poland, biatch!

114 Barbara Skolaut  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:49:54am

#46 dustyroad guy:

W thinks TV polictical debates are bull$hit and a waste of time
W thinks kerry is full of bull$hit and talking with him is a waste of time

I have to agree with W there.

115 Cam  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:50:49am

#113 Dave J.:

Poland, biatch!

WTF does that mean?

116 metroman  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:51:52am

Rush just announced that Kerry lied 17 times last night in the debate.

And therefor there is justification to the claim that John Kerry outlined an Imaginary Future for America last night.

117 abu_garcia  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 7:55:51am

#110 cam

BTW - been fishing lately?

Ivan put the kibosh on our fishing trip to LA. We have adjusted course and ar going to Apalach. on Tuesday.

118 Cam  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 8:10:32am

Dave J:

Do you ever respond to anything? Or do you merely come in, shit on the floor, and leave? Because if that's your M.O., we already have a kneejerk contrarian around here, and Gordon predates you by a looong time.

119 Jamie  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 8:14:37am

#107 Metroman,

You said:

You cannot say someone won a debate without doing a high level analysis of everything that was said.

I would have to respectfully disagree...to a certain extent. These debates are fully within the context of a presidential campaign. The goal of the campaign is to garner more electoral votes than the other guy. If Kerry comes off the victor in the eyes of those who have not already made up their minds on whose electors to vote for, then he won. In a larger context of right and wrong, you may have a point, but if you have to choose between scoring a moral victory and scoring an electoral victory, which are you gonna choose?

120 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 8:21:51am
121 trespasser  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 8:24:01am

Except for the folks here, almost no one is talking about the the part of the debate that absolutely terrified me - Kerry's question as to who are we to have weapons that other countries do not have. This argument is virtually the same argument that has hamstrung Israel so badly - the why-should-you-have-guns-when-the-poor-Palestinian s-only-have-rocks argument. National defense is not suppossed to be a question of fairness; I want our national defense to be decidedly unfair. I am astounded that we have just seen the very first candidate to argue that we should stop pursuing better weapons in order to be more fair. Why should we reduce our capabilities just because our enemies cannot get their hands on better means by which to kill us? This man may not want to use spitballs, but his logic would reduce us to throwing rocks just to keep it fair.

122 metroman  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 8:27:13am

#119 Jamie

This will be my last post as I have to go to work. But you still are not listening to me. I think Kerry lost the debate based upon how he laid out his foreign policy approach. And I contend that it is an unrealistic fantasy that will never come true. That is what is going to be discussed in the next week. Not his performance in the debate. So if you *win* the debate based upon a measured subjective concensus, and then lose the election because the technical details for John Kerry's Imaginary Future for America cannot be identified, then what good is it to have *won* the debate in the first place?

Have a great day and please for the sake of my kids and yours, vote for Bush.

Thanks!

123 Furious J  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 8:29:00am

#121 trespasser:

Kerry on Iran: "I think the United States should have offered the opportunity to provide the nuclear fuel, test them, see whether or not they were actually looking for it for peaceful purposes. If they weren't willing to work a deal, then we could have put sanctions together"

In a sane world, that single quote would lose Kerry the election.

124 manny  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 8:38:34am

#121: "Kerry's question as to who are we to have weapons that other countries do not have."

Whoa. Missed that entirely. Whereabouts is it in the debate so I can check it out in the transcript?

125 Gordon  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 8:39:28am

#82 Mr. Pol: Have fun in your hothouse of an echo chamber.

Remember there is more to "debate" than "should we nuke Mecca today, or wait a year?"

126 Perry  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 8:44:06am

#1 V the K

Wonderful.

127 abu_garcia  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 8:44:51am

#121 trespasser

You are right, of course, but, IMO, it gets down to our collective image of ourselves and the world. A day or two ago "furious j" made a post in which he referred to man's "predatory nature". It did not ruffle a feather here, but I will tell you that in many circles those two words would give rise to a hue and cry like the peasants pursuing Frankenstein. That is the nub of the issue - what are we?

If peace is the natural state of man then civilization is a curse (the view of most LLL's). If man is an animal then civilization is all that distinguishes us from the worst of beasts and we must jealously guard it.

It further gets down to Bambi/Margaret Mead picture of life we were fed in the '50's and '60's and that our scholastics are now feeding to our children.

It will likely get much worse. We can hope it will one day get better.

128 NY Nana  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 8:49:58am

Since we did not watch or listen to the 'debate', I did hear one of Hanoi john's patented lies afterwards on the radio, as we returned home, and they were going over certain statements..here is the complete transcript. The following is what made me wonder why not a word ws said immediately, as it is so egregious:

KERRY: Jim, let me tell you exactly what I'll do. And there are a long list of thing. First of all, what kind of mixed message does it send when you have $500 million going over to Iraq to put police officers in the streets of Iraq, and the president is cutting the COPS program in America?

What kind of message does it send to be sending money to open firehouses in Iraq, but we're shutting firehouses who are the first- responders here in America.

The president hasn't put one nickel, not one nickel into the effort to fix some of our tunnels and bridges and most exposed subway systems. That's why they had to close down the subway in New York when the Republican Convention was there. We hadn't done the work that ought to be done.

Uh, the subway system was open during the RNC; it was never closed down.

He neglected to mention that during the DNC, in my native city, Boston, there were closures, including a major hub, North Station...Boston is impossible to navigate on a good day! Yes, Penn Station in NYC was open and functioning, but with only 2 entrances/exits open. NY was actually more open, and the demonstrators, who IMHO, should have been caged as they were in Boston, were not in NY...Campaign 2004 : Boston

If Hanoi john can lie so blatantly on a relatively small issue that is so easily disproved, then how are we to believe a single word he says??? His record of lies, obfuscations, and flip flops is unlike any other. Was it Gilbert Gottfried who would lie through his teeth, and then say, when caught, 'Yeah, that's it!'?

I only hope that President Bush set him up, and will demolish him totally in the next 2 'debates'.

What VP Cheney will do to the ambulance chaser should be fun to watch.

Reading the transcript gives quite an insight into the devious bloviator, Hanoi john, and I think that when people read closely, they will see, yet again, that the faux fwog/emporer/Presidentail pretender indeed has no clothes... (yuk!)

129 elevenbravo1969  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 8:50:03am

So Bush lost the debate. So Kerry won the debate. That doesn't change anything as far as I'm concerned.

Bush, by and large, is doing the right things the right way.

Kerry has a lousy record in the Senate. His career there gives new meaning to the word, "dilettante." Kerry's actions in Vietnam and, particularly, after his return prove him to be an opportunist, a manipulator, a liar and a traitor.

Furthermore, any man who would so much as consider going out on a date with the likes of Theresa Heinz...well, you'd have to say he lacks the judgment required of a president.

130 Cam  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 8:58:04am

NYNana:

(((HUGS)))

131 trespasser  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 9:02:21am
Whoa. Missed that entirely. Whereabouts is it in the debate so I can check it out in the transcript?

Location in text

The quote itself:

And part of that leadership is sending the right message to places like North Korea. Right now the president is spending hundreds of millions of dollars to research bunker-busting nuclear weapons. The United States is pursuing a new set of nuclear weapons. It doesn't make sense.

You talk about mixed messages: We're telling other people you can't have nuclear weapons but we're pursuing a new nuclear weapons that we might even contemplate using.

Not this president. I'm going to shut that program down. And we're going to make it clear to the world we're serious about containing nuclear proliferation. And we're going to get the job of containing all of that nuclear material in Russia done in four years. And we're going to build the strongest international network to prevent nuclear proliferation.

"Not this president. I'm going to shut that program down. " makes my skin crawl.

132 manny  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 9:04:13am

Complete with a link to the Times, which is where I was looking. Who's better than you, T?

Thanks!

133 trespasser  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 9:11:56am

manny

You're welcome. People must notice that part of the debate. The guy wants to take away one of the most vital weapons we could create - the ability to attack our enemies' underground nuclear facilities. He slipped it in very casually, and it slithered right past Bush.

134 NY Nana  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 9:36:45am

#130 Cam

Here's back at you!

{{{Cam}}}

135 Patrizio  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 9:58:09am

The point in saying Kerry won the debate is that the grand total of undecided voters who will vote for Bush because of his performance in the debate is probably around zero. In fact, he probably lost many voters.

On the other hand, Kerry performed well enough to win plenty of new voters.

Fortunately, it won't be enough to win in November.

136 BPP  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 10:02:49am

74 scoreboard 44

With that said. Does anyone remember long ago when McCain, Liberman and Kerry where pushing the Bush administration into this Iraq mess.

Jeez - how distorted a view of history can you get? McCain, Lieberman and Kerry didn't push Bush into war. They supported the Administrations decision to go to war with varying degrees of enthusiasm. Not the same thing by a long shot.

84 Beagle

Read up on which side our European 'allies' are on before commenting further. Bat Ye'or would be a good start. The Europeans (for decades) have had this clever plan to side with the Arabs.

Bat Ye'or has bats in her belfry.

And if the Europeans are so compromised, why is Bush relying on them to be the ones to intercede with Iran, as he himself pointed out in the debate?

Credibility does matter - at least when it comes to persuading often reluctant allies to put their necks on the line. My point remains the same. If Bush wanted to rally the world to stand up to Iran and build a military coalition against it, he couldn't do it.

92 Dirk Diggler

Instead he intends to set arbitrary deadlines for withdrawal (draw down beginning in six months, culminating in a complete American withdrawal in four years) that have no relationship to the realities on the ground in Iraq. Definitely sounds like 'Peace with Honor' Redux to me.

Believe whatever you want to believe, even if it has no relation to reality. Here's what Kerry said:

The timeline that I've set out, and again, I want to correct the president because he's misled again this evening on what I've said. I didn't say I would bring troops out in six months. I said if we do the things that I've set out and we are successful we could begin to draw the troops down in six months.

What part of that don't you understand?

137 stoj  Fri, Oct 1, 2004 10:04:29am

#92

I still don't understand that either. How can a person criticize the President for not committing enough troops, and also say that he will reduce the number of troops within 6 months? How can that be?

138 leo (dissident view from Berlin)  Sat, Oct 2, 2004 3:18:08am

#136 BPP:

And if the Europeans are so compromised, why is Bush relying on them to be the ones to intercede with Iran, as he himself pointed out in the debate?

Bush wants to get Iran to the UN Security Council, and Europe does have two veto holders that are to be won there. So he let the EU, wisely in time, exert every diplomatic alternative they had suggested on Iraq, and the argument that diplomacy would not have been exhausted cannot be repeated. Now we see that multilateralism, the policy the EU had put all its bets on, was based on a false estimation of the capabilities of the IAEA and the intentions of theocratic Iran, and as the multilateralists realize their failure they cry for their own veto in the UN Security Council. Europe has ended up a precarious situation where any reduced engagement of the EU by the US would be compensated by a accordingly higher engagement of the EU by the Islamic states, first of all Iran. This would paralyze two veto holders in the UN Security Council. It is a wise move to preempts Iran from expanding its sway over Europe in a situation where Gadaffi has already taken over the dead corpse of multilateralism.

139 Davidslott  Sun, Oct 3, 2004 5:18:34pm

The scant available info on methodology of the current Newsweek poll suggests inherent reliability issues that are not revealed in Newsweek’s article.

A few things are clear about the Newsweek poll.

1. They were trying to be the first out with post-debate Presidential preference results. Their sampling description reveals that sampling began on the night of the debate in the mountain states and far west. Just how much sampling went on then is undisclosed.
2. The survey was taken very soon after the debate, and in a compressed time period to get the “scoop.”
3. They did not sample over an entire weekend (and maybe very little on Saturday, who knows?,) which is recommended and could have easily been done with a little more patience.

Goal: Scoop
Result: Unreliability.

See the following statement from the National Council on Public Polls Polling Review Board ( [Link: www.ncpp.org...] which says in part:


One issue where news values and good polling methods clash is the media's appetite for "instant" polls which provide an immediate reaction to dramatic events such as the recent announcement of vice-presidential candidates, or the impact of presidential debates.

A key question for poll watchers, and the media who report polls, should always be "How many days was the survey in the field?" In general, the quality of a sample improves the longer the survey is in the field. Surveys conducted on one evening, or even over two days, have more sampling biases - due to non-response and non-availability - than surveys which are in the field for three, four or five days.

That's why you haven't heard from Gallup and others. Newsweek wanted a scoop, used unreliable polling methods and did not disclose the unreliability in its article.


This entry has been archived.
Comments are closed.

^ back to top ^

log in
Name:
Pass:

Register Forgot Your Password? My Account Re-send Confirmation (To log in, cookies must be enabled in your browser!)

► LGF Headlines

  • Loading...

► Top 10 Comments

  • Loading...

► Bottom Comments

  • Loading...

► Recent Comments

  • Loading...

► Tools/Info

► LGF Hits

► Slideshows

► Resources

► Never Forget

► Statistics

► Tag Cloud

► Contact

You must have Javascript enabled to use the contact form.
Your email:

Subject:

Message:


Messages may be published in our weblog, unless you request otherwise.
Tech Note:
Using the Contact Form

► News/Opinion

  • Loading...

More Partners

Compare Electricity Prices in your area. Texas Electricity is deregulated; you have the right to choose Texas Electric Rates from among many Texas Electric Companies.

An inner strongbox of shallow shibboleths.

Follow Lizardoid on Twitter

Barnes & Noble Home

 Frank says:

You can't always write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say, so sometimes you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream.

New Lower Prices on Textbooks! Shop Now!