I know charles. I took my parents to the cleaners on this one. It didn't register to them at all

I watched the debate. In my mind I watched Lurch write with a white pen. Am I wrong?

Well, that's better, then.

Now let's get back to the issues, since the leader of the free world is at stake.

Combien pour vos femmes. Le petit.

alright, back to work I guess.

damn compression artifacts!

Since Kerry wants to give nuclear material to Iran and cancel all American nuclear weapons R&D, the fact that he's willing to non-chalantly violate an agreement is frankly a relief. I'ts not that no one cares Charles, it's that it is the lessor story

Huh, are we quitting so soon in the face of insurmountable evidence? Have we analyzed the placement of the dots on his tie? They look altered...as though something other than a pen was there originally? And what about the footage from the grasy knoll... all the web links have been deleted.

~:)

Well, for heaven's sake, all Billy Jeff did was lie 'bout sex!!

/LLL excuses for me, not for thee

If you look at it in super high resolution, you will see crib notes etched on the pen cap.

The bastards.

OT Charles but I hope you see thishistoric French perfidy

The government of Charles de Gaulle held hundreds of foreigners, including at least three Britons, in an internment camp near Toulouse for up to four years after the second world war, according to secret documents.
The papers, part of a cache of 12,000 photocopied illegally by an Austrian-born Jew, reveal the extent to which French officials collaborated with their fleeing Nazi occupiers even as their country was being liberated. They also show that, when the war was over, France went to extraordinary lengths to hide as much evidence of that collaboration as possible.

The documents are in a mass of registers, telegrams and manifests which Kurt Werner Schaechter, an 84-year-old retired businessman, copied from the Toulouse office of France's national archives in 1991. They are uniquely precious: under a 1979 law most of France's wartime archives are sealed for between 60 and 150 years after they were written.

"This is an untold story of the dark side of France's liberation 60 years ago," Mr Schaechter, a former musical instruments salesman, said at his home in Alfortville, a Paris suburb. "French functionaries were involved in a national scandal that continued until 1949: the despicable treatment of allied and neutral civilians interned during the war."

Mr Schaechter's activities - last year he used some of the papers to try to force the French railway SNCF to admit its responsibility in shipping 76,000 Jews to Nazi death camps - have infuriated some French historians, who say their privileged access to classified archives has been compromised. But others have backed the campaign for freer access to documents relating to a part of France's past that it has long preferred to ignore.

What was he flipping over?

Um, Charles, you were supposed to put this on page A78, you know, buried back on the original posting as an "update" and not on the front page! Take a lesson from the MSM!

/sarcasm

Of course, you are better than that. An excellent example of blogs self-checking and correcting.

#9 Maine's Michael.

Oooh...a special pen...like one Bond would have. Maybe it vibrates in code? No, he would have left that in his pants.

Can we focus on real issues now?

That smile..that face...

{{{cold shivers}}}

Yes, but it was a talking pen, wired to send Kerry secret messages!:)

#13 -- After his prostrate surgery, I doubt that would do a thing for Skerry.:)

Charles,

Now that's class!

I was wrong about it, too.

Best I can figure is that the light reflected from the moving pen (Zombie?) left a residual light-track on the TV image, thus the (apparent) straight edge. Further image intensification just magnified or emphasized the image retention artifact. GIGO.

The rest is probably uncapping and/or doing as did president Bush did, testing the pen on the lectern's papers.

I'm a bit chagrined over it, but only enough to ensure renewed vigor the next time.

Unlike Rather, Mapes, et al, we can cheerfully admit a failed hypothesis and move on.

#14 Patrizio

Can we focus on real issues now?

And what are the "real issues"?

#19

The war on Islam, the stalled campaign in the Middle East, the dangers of the hatred-spreading mosques in the USA and Europe, etc. etc.

Most of it is already pointed out by Charles though, but I think there was too much focus on the memos and the pen

Oh man. Don't risk being perceived as petty. It will diminish your credibility.

It's a pen. It's a non-issue.

#14 patrazio

Can we focus on real issues now?

Which flip flop of Kerry's do you want to talk about?

What was in his right hand? ;)

This reminds me of the Sandy Berger incident where he stuffed classified documents into his socks by mistake. Or CBS trying to nail George Bush with fake documents. But this isn't like the dirty tricks campaign that lead up to Watergate. Its getting real close though.

#20 Patrizio

Most of it is already pointed out by Charles though, but I think there was too much focus on the memos and the pen

It wasn't the pen, paper, or the pimple on his ass. The point was even on minor issues Lurch cheats. The MSM is helping. You don't see a problem with that?

#22

Heh. I think we're going to see plenty of that during the debate on domestic issues, when he tries to push a fully federally funded health care system. I wonder how he'll flop when he realizes it can't be afforded.

I agree with Charles that we shouldn't apologize for how long we discussed this topic. It just shows that people are watching. It turned out to be a minor violation, but it could have been more. There are far too many eyes watching these days to pull the wool over all of them. Stay vigilant Lizards!

WAIT!! What about the hearing aid???

Come on guys this is not the way we fight. George would not be proud. So what if it isn't true. Keep saying it and it will be true. He cheated, He cheated, He cheated. Boy this is HARD WORK.

Kerry did pull out what I thought was some white paper. It did not look like a pen. It seemed pretty clear when I watched the debate live on CSPAN.

14, 21, 22 last one, i promise

23, another pen. He is multitasking while debating, you see with two pens you can pretend they are chopsticks and practice, practice, practice, so you don't drop your food in your lap when you have to go to China begging them to come back and help with NKorea, some of the chinese may even speak French.

penis mightier than sword... not that LLL would've found anything wrong even if Kerry'd brought one onstage (sword, stupid!)

/spellcheck back on

I think Charles should apologize when Kos apologizes for "screw em".

...

#25

I fail to see how is it that Kerry has "cheated" so much. Yeah, he flip flops and doesn't seem to have any real convictions and his record is appalling and his post-Viet Nam actions were deplorable, etc. etc., but I don't know about any cheating.

#21 Punderdome

Oh man. Don't risk being perceived as petty. It will diminish your credibility.

23 years ago, 2 friends of mine were thrown out of the US military. Not for cheating, but for the perception they were. They snuck into a practical area in the middle of the night, after they had passed, and spray painted their class symbol on the tail of an F-4 in the prac area. They had already passed. They not only were thrown out of EOD school, they were thrown out of the military.

And you think this issue is "petty"?

Remember, we're talking about a potential POTUS and CinC.

Are you guys sure that not his own string he's pulling. You know, the one that plays five presidential sounding phrases, like:

* I was in Vietnam
* None of your business
* I was in Vietnam
* I voted for it, before I voted against it
* I was in Vietnam

Yup.

It was just a pen...

Sandy Berger just stuffed a few documents in his pants...

It was just a little satellite technology we sold to China...

(sigh)

#36

You can't be serious about that comparison

#18 Ten Ring

Unlike Rather and Maples Charles will not be railed against and there won't be demands for a congressional investigation because he published something that wasn't true prior to testing it.

Now we can all be cheerfully on our way.

Follow on sheep.

#37

Character matters.

JOhn KErry ain't got none.

(hic)

#34 reaganite

Remember, we're talking about a potential POTUS and CinC.

The highest standard. But he does not have to hold up to any standard. Kerry found that out in 1971. He is above it all.

Is this frame grab from the beginning of the debate, or the end?

I'd like to see moving footage, showing it's at the beginning of the debate.

I recorded the debate (C-SPAN split screen footage), and it appears Kerry is unfolding something after taking it out of his jacket.
 

#39

I agree

If Kerry flip/flops on something like debate rules, what would he do if forced to make a real decision like after a WMD strike against the USA?

#40 Ann

But he does not have to hold up to any standard. Kerry found that out in 1971. He is above it all.

That is exactly what my biggest problem with the L³ is, not just low standards, but none at all. A liar and a cheat is perfectly okay with them.

So he had a Hanky and a pen.. Wow he is fast.

I'd like to get a closer view of what is in his other hand. The pen out of the coat pocket is clear, but what explains the unfolding of the paper that occurs once he gets up to the podium.

Working off bad secondary intel never hurts... errr, nm.

The Meme du jour is never having to say you were wrong, just working off of bad information.

Now back to our regularly scheduled important issues to worry about... God knows there are enough of them.

Maine's Michael, LOL!

FWIW

In the NCEES Professional Engineer exams, examinees are prohibited from bringing their own pencils because one got busted with a communication device in his.

Does this "Memorandum of Understanding" provide penalties for rule violations? I.e. does J Forbes K have the smallest modicum of class to, say, hit up Te-raise-a for 5 large and give it to a charity as penance?

/rhetorical question!
:-(

#37 Patrizio:

I don't know about them, but I'm 100% serious. It's just a little bit...it's just a little bit, oh it's just a little bit. Oh who cares if we give these guys something a bit larger after all the people are so complacent that we've gotten away with so much as it stands now. If they complain they can just shut up, or perhaps we'll pay lip service to them.

Ever look into Canadian or European politics? That's what this is like.

I watched the debate. In my mind I watched Lurch write with a white pen. Am I wrong?

On C-SPAN split screen, you could see Kerry writing with a black pen (looked like a plastic papermate pen, nothing fancy).
 

Just because he brought a pen in doesn't mean he brought something else in too.

Now, if it was just a pen I don't see how anybody can really freak out, could almost be inadvertant, but it looked to me like he took out a piece of paper and unfolded it.

Either way, he is still a lying appeasing Marxist sympathizer, with no record of leadership or accomplishment in the Senate, he has voted against American defense every chance he got, would give nuclear fuel to Iran to test them, would repeat the failed Clinton/Carter strategy with North Korea, and can't conceal his disdain for the working classes.

#44 reaganite

A liar and a cheat is perfectly okay with them.

Kerry is the best at it.
How does one lie testifying before Congress, and is eligible to hold a Senate seat? And now run for President?
{shiver}

CHARLES STEP AWAY FROM THE CRACK PIPE AND LOOK AT THE TIME ON THE PIC FROM TONIGHT..6:32ET. NOW LOOK AT THE PIC ON THE BLOG YOU ANALIZED{I ALMOST SPELLED THAT WRONG} EARLIER. THE TIME IS 7:03 MT

cAN ANY CONCLUSIONS BE DRAWN FROM THIS. hmmm

So please do explain why in the video this so called pen looked like white paper. Do we not believe our eyes?

#38 billib

Unlike Rather and Maples Charles will not be railed against and there won't be demands for a congressional investigation because he published something that wasn't true prior to testing it.

Not quite congruent.

Rather/Mapes tried to conceal the truth; we kept at it until we uncovered the truth.

Dunno about the others but I personally went out of my way to avoid adding extra compression or 'cleaning up' the image. Just to eliminate even the barest suspicion of manipulation.

And when we learned otherwise, that our thesis was based on errant data, we unabashedly proclaimed our findings.

Are Rather and Mapes doing anything similar?

(crickets)

Charles, can you post where you got that pic from? It seems funny that we suddenly get such a clear picture when we had trouble for so long. I'd like to see a sequence if at all possible too. Thanks!

I suffered through a MSM TV report on Lurch yesterday. I came away feeling the story cast a negative air. Maybe it was only me, but this quys likability is low even to the LLL.

When I first saw the posts about the pen, I thought the nitpicking sounded more like the DU or Move-on. I was glad to see the group move on to more productive topics worthy of attention. I think it is important for this blog to choose its battles carefully and gain credibility through careful research and investigation. Blogs like the LGF are this countries best chance for shedding the shackles of liberal news control. CBS’s memogate was just the opening shot of what will be a long war for breaking the liberal stranglehold on the free and open debate of ideas that made the US the greatest democracy in history.

Question: to be a "vast right wing conspiracy" don't we need a conspiracy theory??? I mean he flip flops, he never accomplished crap in the senate, his half baked theories on Iraq/iran/Korea...those are FACTS not a conspiracy.

#55 foggy,

its possible that that was just a replay from the next day. Although I'm sure that it can be confirmed based on the headline below it, I don't know how. Anyone?

foggy, you step away from the crack pipe.

#54 Ann

{shiver}

My sentiments exactly.

JOhn KErry is the kind of Asshole who would borrow your car, and leave it on empty.

He's the kind of prick that would hide his weed under YOUR seat as you get pulled over by cops, then, when discovered - would convince the cops its yours...
Later he'd say "thanks for takin' the rap, buddy, you know my reputation couldn't stand a drug arrest."

Would ANYONE want that kind of President?

From Drudge:

Aren't Kerry supporters/leftists-fanatics so so so tolerant and gracious?

Um, foggy? 'Analyzed', not 'analized'. Unless you're trying to make a very weak pun.

What happened to the white note card?

I swear there was a white note card in one of those stills. Oh well. Lesson in all of this - don't piss off the mob-left.

Just wanted to add one more thing: on the C-SPAN video feed, they cut right to the split screen for the entire debate.

They do not cut to the moderator at any time.

They do not cut to anything -- all you see is GWB and Kerry in split screen.

From this footage, after Kerry approaches the podium, he takes something out of his suit jacket, and then appears to unfold a piece of paper behind the podium.

This is what I saw -- could be wrong, could be right.  I watched the scene at least 5 times.

Take this info as you will.
 

#2 reaganite 
I watched the debate. In my mind I watched Lurch write with a white pen. Am I wrong?

It sure as hell looked like a white pen to me. To this minute.

Fox had the front-angle view all along, which none of us peons had access to. So, as Charles says, there's nothing to apologize about -- from the limited information we had, something looked suspicious. If it turns out it wasn't notes but instead was merely a pen -- well, we admit that the infraction wasn't as serious as the mystery might have originally suggested, but it was still an infraction, albeit a minor one.

Unlike the MSM or the moonbat left, we know evidence when we see it, and when it's time to hang up the speculating. That's why we will win this battle for society -- they don't know when to hang it up. To this day, half the people in Berkeley still think Halliburton, the Mossad and Enron conspired with the Saudi royal family to knock down the World Trade Center.

They just don't know when to quit.

Anyway, kudos to Charles for bringing this issue up in the fist place, and kudos for frankly laying out all the new evidence as it became available. Now that's journalistic integrity.

When I first saw the posts about the pen, I thought the nitpicking sounded more like the DU or Move-on.

The posts were not about a pen, they were about what appeared to be prepared notes.
 

I've got nothing to be sorry about. Kerry can't even hold up his end of an insignificant agreement. That was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt by every picture that was posted.

I'm indebted to Charles for providing a forum for discussion about this, and don't much like being told what I should and shouldn't discuss. If a topic doesn't agree with me, I simply don't comment on it and move on.

Thought Starter, The Road to Serfdom (Hayek)

I would estimate we are somewhere between slides 7 and 8.

Good n'ght minions.

Forget the pin. Talk about style over substance. The real gold in the debate is what Kerry said!

If we'd put the same effort into examining the few definite statements Kerry made, we'd be able to watch them all fall apart -- global test, Iranian nuclear fuel, no bunker busters, bilateral and unilateral talks w/North Korea, ...

Instead, there's talk of "at x:xx:xx of frame y from camera z, we can see a motion..."

F**k the pen!

And it’s a bit depressing that this country is now willing to accept blatant flaunting of debate rules, because it was “only a pen.” Kerry was specifically forbidden to do this, by rules to which he agreed after much negotiation—but he did it anyway, apparently without even thinking.

Why will that surprise anyone? That is the sad state of all of it here. Yes, it is depressing. We realize just what is happening here. Why is there not a more pissed off bunch of people than there is? Rules? Right, there is a double standard for rules. Fill in the blanks there.

Because nobody cares. Morals went out the door with Clinton and BJs when it was ok to do that. The people who have even a small idea of what they want to say... well, they do not want to, because they will be attacked, and they are scared. That sucks, when no one cannot say anything, unless it is PC.

When the rules are flaunted, where then does the line be drawn?

The country is willing to accept blatant flaunting of everything, only because that is the sad state of affairs. No one wants to think for themselves. I want to know...is anyone really pissed at the rules being re-interpreted, or, as I seem to see, does anyone really give a crap. People do not seem to give a crap. Just business as usual.

Where are the people who really give a crap? I am rather tired at the infighting, the name-calling. Us against them against us. Is no one better than another?

Congrats Charles for bringing up things, but can we all have a discourse, an intelligent discussion without infighting?

Sucks that we all have stooped to such a low level that we cannot get together, but only have the ammo to fight amongst ourselves. There is a bigger picture.

What does America want? And rather than debate ad infinitum in the blogs, what is not someone doing something?

#68 not a computerhead myself but the gist of what i have read is that its a remnant/ghost/creation of the digital compression/decompression and that it is the pen that you see just very distorted...i think.

To Charles/LGF:

I want to thank you for your introductory comments, your balanced and considerate perspective about this issue: Kerry's violation of the debate rules, and what appears to be him doing so without even so much as a hint of hesitation or pause.

I agree that he didn't have, from what we now see, likely as not at least, a "cheat sheet" but there's no way to know unless someone comes up with an even more closeup observation of that "pen," just what the "pen" was -- or otherwise, what Kerry was fooling around with on his podium with both hands prior to the start of the debate (I realize he could have been shuffling around the blank paper on the podium, although that's not likely, and he could have been writing brief notes to himself, although I don't and didn't see his right arm moving in a "writing" manner when he was shuffling whatever on the podium so it leaves me to think that Kerry had something on the podium that he was moving around and otherwise interacting with while waiting for the debate start).

Anyway, I realize that there's now been further revelation of information about this Kerry Cheat issue, but the point is that he still cheated. He cheated. He disregarded the rules, he violated the rules. That everyone but Kerry and the Democrats have something to feel badly about, much less apologize for, is truly horrible (so I appreciated you writing what you wrote, because I agree with you).

I don't think the issue is "to bed," however, because Kerry cheating in the first debate is a big deal to me. If I'm a "lone voice crying in the wilderness" about these concerns, then so be it, but I doubt that I am. I think that Kerry's generally just showing his casual disregard for all rules and regulations and it doesn't matter what anyone thinks or proves or does not, about that, because Kerry's got this fixed personality disorder that no rules apply to him. His campaign certainly exudes that attitude.

Anyway, I appreciate what you've written here.

To me this "pen" incident is worth pursuing, because 1) if Bush did it, the MSM would be all over it; and more importantly 2) it's just another example of Kerry's arrogance. Rules, even in a presidential debate, should only apply to the other guy...because JF'nKerry is special.

I wonder if Kerry has a shred of honor in him. Has he ever apologized for anything, done anything that shows generosity or humility? Has he ever been wrong about anything?

I know he allegedly resuscitated a hamster, but I'm suspicious.

#57 Ten Ring

I should have been a little more explicit. Rather and Maples were not entirely innocent.

Neither are you and the wonderful Charles. What you did is no different than Rather and Maples. You published a statement that was not true and then AFTER publishing the statement went after the truth.

The damage has already been done. As witnessed by some of the blithering idiots on this page that are still searching for pieces of paper and recall seeing in their mind that he was doing this or that.

For that matter Rather and Maples produced the secretary that stated the memos were indicative of what the Colonel would have written she just knew that he didn't write them. Granted she couldn't have known what someone else thought but there was more truth in what they were publishing than in this garbage.

I really do thank you for doing this though because it has provided great folly for us trolls.

Follow on sheep.

Oh and all together now: Charles is great

I didn't follow this story very closely - so I don't know ALL that has transpired.

One things stands out to me though...Kerry's willingness to break the rules, even a small one, shows either one of two things:

#1 his people don't keep him informed, or
#2 he doesn't mind breaking some rules

Either way - it's very telling...

For those who are having difficulty with the word cheating:

1. The rules were NOTHING --
2. Pen and paper were provided
3. Kerry agreed to the rules
4. Kerry took SOMETHING out of his pocket

Was it a petty offense? Yes. On the other hand it was SO petty that it should have been something he was easily able to follow and he didn't.

What does that say about him?

If a child took a pack of gum at the store would it be right to not tell them that it was wrong because it was only a little cheap pack of gum.

Nobody step away from the crack pipe, OK? Crack dealers need to eat too.

I swear I saw John Kerry unfold his 'pen' and smooth it out on the lectern. What up with that?

Kerry did not 'flaunt' the rules. He flouted them. He flaunted his flouting of the rules.

I know it's nit-picky, but can we get it right? The language has become refined in order that we may communicate with precision.

#70 zombie

It sure as hell looked like a white pen to me. To this minute.

I have the image of an over sized pen as well. I was stone sober but that doesn't mean I'm right. Besides, bigel nailed it here. I certainly don't want Lurch as POTUS.

Neither are you and the wonderful Charles. What you did is no different than Rather and Maples.

Bullshit.

But, you know, there ARE pens that have digital display on their top ends, are radios, even some that are two-way radios, others that tell time...

So, perhaps we should take a closer look at the specific pen Kerry used and why Kerry used that pen, why he resorted to a different pen than what was on the podium...I just don't trust Kerry to ever behave reasonably at any competitive event, perceiving him to be the sort of person who will take unfair advantage whenever he can: foot in the aisle, lying while pleading for mercy, swearing -- swearing -- that he knows when he doesn't and/or vice-versa, things of that nature.

In fact, I'm sure he's of that character sort.

[Link: www.electoral-vote.com...]

#1 Parents are hard

I get it now. Ralph nader bumper stickers for WA State. Hat tip my son, the Binkster. My car, my husband's car, my kids car, my MOM'S car. Etc. Check out the change in our state in a week . Oh yea! Go Ralph!!!

#41
William

I agree with you 100%. Fox News broadcast the Debate and afterwards took the clip I am talking about to advertise. It was on Fox News up til last night.
In Kerry's hand you see his left hand
approach the right pocket... he is smiling that smarmy smile all the time. He gets to the podium and turns as
his hand places the piece of paper on the podium! It looked to be an 8 x 10 piece of paper folded into thirds.

That was NO black pen Kerry had. The DNC had the black pen pic ready to go - they knew Kerry would be pictured from every angle... the Cheats!!

#79

Uh..sarcasm? Might be a new word for you but there is a fairly healthly dose in here on both sides.

And as far as the secretary is concerned, her statement isn't even hearsay, just like you or i saying we know OJ killed his wife and her friend. pretty much our "opinion" and hers.

#56

So please do explain why in the video this so called pen looked like white paper. Do we not believe our eyes?

In this case, apparently not.

I just saw the FOXnews segment from the debates, using another camera angle. They weren't talking about the pen, but someone in post/edit was clever enough to choose that image to help put the fire out without commenting on it.

Thank you FOX! (I know you're reading)

What I think we saw, with 20/20 hindsight, is the reflection from a moving pen. Because TV captures at 30 frames per second (approx.) a shiny, moving object leaves a track of light that stretches as far as the pen moved in 1/30^th of a second.

Think about videos you've seen of majorettes spinning flaming batons. The fire seems to leave a circular trail because the flaming baton spins through a fair arc in even that small amount of time.

So the video captured a long streak (light reflecting along the length of the pen) that moved a couple of inches laterally in that instant. Looking at a single frame doesn't show movement, just where the light was during that exposure.

That's what gave the illusion of a square corner. If you have the video, step through it with all this in mind and you can see how it can happen.

Apparently even televised evidence can be misleading. Add to that our very human personal bias and it's not difficult to see what we would like to. Or at least interpret it that way.

Kinda like a cop sees a dark-alley perp 'point a gun' when in fact he was opening a mobile phone.

Doesn't change my opinion of JF'nK, though. I still believe he is a treasonous, spineless opportunist and I'll forgive him and Jane Fonda after Israel forgives Hitler.

Just sayin'

OK, how many THIEVES here have ever taken a pen home from the office?

Just got an e-mail with a "Letter" from Ollie North to JF'nK ... anybody know if it's real?
Sounds like Ollies "voice" ... if so, he nails Lurch regarding his Anti-war activities when he came home (early) ...
to "Run for Congress" and ... let his hair grow out ... and throw "some"bodys medals away ...and go to secret meetings in Paris ... and listen to a bunch of Vet's (sorta like Dan Blathers "Vets" in his 1988 hit piece) tell "Stoories" about the war ... and ...

Yeah, but look at the middle of the pen...there's writing there!

Big white letters...I swear it looks like "GLOBAL VISION" to me...

Either that or "JACQUE'S SCHOOL OF APPEASEMENT, SURRENDER, AND EROTIC MASSAGE"

#91 gabe

OK, how many THIEVES here have ever taken a pen home from the office?

Do you have a point?

Nedra118 (#88)

That was NO black pen Kerry had. The DNC had the black pen pic ready to go - they knew Kerry would be pictured from every angle... the Cheats!!

You're getting hysterical.

#79 billib  

Oh and all together now: Charles is great

And how many hits did your website get today, billitroll?

1. Charles made it clear from the start, if it was incorrect, he'd apologize:

By the way, if this turns out to be something innocuous and perfectly legitimate according to the Memorandum of Understanding, I’ll be one of the first to acknowledge it. (Unless I’m asleep.)

2. Charles is correct - Kerry produced a pen from his pocket which breaks the rules Kerry agreed to. May not be a matter of life and death, but it's still a violation of the MOU.

So billi, go back to democraticunderground where suckas will fall for your moral equivalency.

#91 gabe

I have a dismal record of pen theft. For this reason, once a year, I buy a box of pens out of my own money.

Note, however, that I work in a two-person office. We operate very much on our honor, and we know who's got access to the paper closet.

A few points about how LGF is different from CBS and other MSM outlets:

Anyone can barge into the "newsroom" and get "on the air," participate in the "editorial conference," and get heard, so long as you don't try to change the "editorial slant" of the coverage.

We don't pretend to be objective.

We do try to be accurate. This is 24/7/365 peer-reviewed journalism (and now, media criticism). We do in public what CBS should have done before it ran with the bogus Killian memos.

We correct mistakes on the front page.

We are a jury of a segment of public opinion, and we have greater knowledge together than any one of us does individually. As with any other jury, we theoretically can ascertain the truth.

We don't pretend a moral equivalence where none exists.

#33 Patrizio

Kerry cheated because he violated debate rules that he previously agreed to -- and in writing, formed a written agreement about -- and agreed to uphold and abide by.

Among those rules was the agreed upon conditiion that neither candidate would bring with them to the debate "any tangible object" and IF THEY DID, then they'd hand that over in public view to the moderator, who would then make note of it and make a decision about it (say, for instance, if someone brought a pair of glasses with them, a handkerchief, a glass of water because of some medical problem, or, say, a PEN or paperwork).

Kerry agreed to the rules. His campaign signed the rules in agreement. Kerry walked onto the stage, and proceeded to violate one of those rules (he succeeded in bringing with him to the debate "a tangible object" that he withdrew from his coat and used for the debate, and that was the pen identified and perhaps some other object as yet unidentified).

So, he cheated. He cheated in the sense that he violated the rules of the debate, and did so in what nearly everyone who watched this footage agrees is Kerry behaving without any remorse or hesitation. Not like he's hesitating to do what he did and does...just break the rules, moveon.

Call it cheating, call it violation of rules, call it breaking of rules, call it cheating. Same thing. You violate the rules, you suffer a penalty. Problem to my view, however, is that Kerry isn't being penalized and his campaign is even attempting to use the Kerry cheat offense to demean anyone who makes mention of it.

It's Kerry's fault. He's responsible for the violation, he should be responsible for some penalty for his violation.

Erotic massage? Kerry is in favor of erotic massage! I may change to undecided. if he throws in free beer, hes got my vote, dabgummit.

6:32 ET... hmm, the debate didn't start until 8PM CT... could that just be FOX's clock showing when they were replaying footage from the debate at a later date?

OT
anyone know anything about this movie:
Celsius 41.1

#100 cal2bered

Hey, maybe we can get Teresa to pay for non-erotic massages for all registered voters. It wouldn't change my vote, but it would improve my opinion of her.

OK, enough crap from me. I posted this elsewhere, got no response. I thought it was an interesting way to present information accurately. Nobody cared, boohoo for me. Maybe it is more crap but here goes...
[Link: www.geog.ucsb.edu...]

#101
It was broadcast today at 6:32 eastern

OT, but not
Fox just had a clip of Kerry saying that he will get to work on November 3rd for America...
He corrected that he really couldn't start until January.
I have a headache.

Oops... my bad... I remembered wrong... and that changes what I was saying...

I meant to say 7PM CT/MT, not 8PM... Kerry reached into his coat at 7:03CT/MT... the pic at the top here shows Kerry with the pen at 6:32ET, which would be 7:32CT/MT... That's a full 29 minutes later...

#49 PETN Sandwich

I agree with that and share in that experience, as to academics: the last university I attended, anyone caught in a Math class final (or any exam) wearing dark glasses was asked to take them off and reprimanded, since we were told ahead of time not to appear at the test wearing any.

Also: no calculators, no papers, just two pencils and an eraser. Everything else, left outside the exam hall. Anyone inside the hall with any of those items, was liable for failure from the class. No questions asked, just have anything on you other than two pencils and an eraser and you fail.

Night all, I have a plane to catch early. Any Detroit lizards interested in a drink or ten email me.

#100 cal2bered  

Erotic massage? Kerry is in favor of erotic massage!

You missed the first part of a noble vision's hilarious post. That's
Jacque's school of erotic massage - as in Jacques Chirac. [shudder]

#87 Goofy website. Kinda clumsy.

Kerry's cheating is swaying voters for Bush in WASHINGTON STATE.

Washington State, October 4th

Kerry 46%
Bush 45%
Nader2%

Go Nader!!

My point is that it's a pen. Kerry took a pen out of his own pocket. 32 pages of "rules", and this is considered disgraceful?

One of the reasons I not a Democrat is because I hate over-legislation. 32 pages of protocol for a debate! There is already so much legislation in this country that it's hard to cross the street without breaking some nit-picky rule.

For the sake of reason, how can anyone even be sure that, out of 32 pages of "rules", that Kerry would know that taking a PEN OUT OF HIS POCKET was against the rules, or even realized it? It can happen, just like taking a pen home from work.

I've got a lot of reasons to dislike John Kerry, but taking a pen to the debate is NOT one of them.

#100 cornholio

Oops...my bad.

Dianna  

Hey, maybe we can get Teresa to pay for non-erotic massages for all registered voters.

A massage from Teresa? :-0

Just a thought.

Kerry brought a forbidden pen into the debate. He broke the rules. Therefore Kerry is declared the loser of the debate.

Is everyone now satisfied and is the world a better place for all of you. If so then so be it: KERRY LOST.

It still doesn't change the fact that W couldn't put together a intelligible response when he had to, he looked utterly foolish/oafish at times, his best strategy was to simply repeat the mantra given him to use when his mind left him. Kerry exposed him for the inept manager that he is and more people know it now and Kerry's stock has gone up and W's down.

It seems to me you guys are missing the point. Your boy didn't loose because Kerry brought a pen into the debate he lost because he is incompetent. He won't admit it and you can't admit it so you make up stupid excuses.

Once again this provides extreme folly for us trolls.

Follow on sheep.

#109 Reagnite

Any Detroit lizards interested in a drink or ten email me.

I was at Metro on Tuesday for the flight back EUtopia. Ah well, we'll meet up in an airport someday.

Kerry clearly demonstrated his disregard for rules and for other people during his time in Vietnam and he certainly hasn’t changed since then.

#109 reaganite

Any Detroit lizards interested in a drink or ten email me.

Grin!
'Night, reaganite!

You seem very bitter and angry, billib. Do you need a hug?

#70 zombie :

I recopied your two versions of still images to my website with links to yours, credits where due, and I thank you for making them avaialable (both sets meaning your first round of images and your second round taken from the TIVO copy that are better quality).

#107

I meant to say 7PM CT/MT, not 8PM... Kerry reached into his coat at 7:03CT/MT... the pic at the top here shows Kerry with the pen at 6:32ET, which would be 7:32CT/MT... That's a full 29 minutes later...

Fuggetaboudit.

FOX was rebroadcasting some of their B-roll footage behind a report on the debates. I'm guessing you can see the same again tonight when Brit Hume's hour repeats.

I'm the guy who supplied the first blow-up motion sequences and I'm the guy who was one of the most vocal advocates for looking into it further.

Now, I'm the guy who's saying it was indeed a pen.

I just wish the MSM was as energetic in their search for truth in the Swift Boat matter. I'm surprised that some of JF'nK's purple hearts didn't come from fragging.

Bush and Kerry pulled out something in their respective breast pockets. You can see it at C-SPAN website. It is still posted there.

Hold the BLAH will you? Do some checking people.
After viewing the early sequence after they were introduced, and it doesn't convinced you both of them pulled out something, fine.

Just give the alternative truth a look.

# 115 b

Passed the global test yet you spineless appeaser?

GAZE

#122
si.

Plus, if we all reach back to the deep dark recessess of our minds and recall that time when we weren't prepared for the test and made the cheat sheet...which didn't help at all cause we were so un prepared we didn't even have enough knowledge/sense to cheat well!

This is a debate for the job of the leader of the free world...and he would bring in a cheat sheet. Like said above, nuf crack for now.

# 122 n

Link?

OT: No draft dodger memorial in Canada.

#115 billib

Follow on sheep.

On NO not the dreaded SHEEPLE. Please NO NO don't accuse us of being SHEEEPLE. Please NO baa no baaa omg baaa baaa

#115 billib

I thought Kerry won the debate. I still think Kerry won the debate. Bush lost because he missed so many opportunites to turn Kerry's words against him.

Seethe on, as I'm still voting for Bush. If Bush drools through the next debate, and says "ah" 200 times, I'm still voting for him. Kerry has done nothing, ever, to suggest I can trust him on foreign policy.

#126

How sad...what are our northern neighbors going to do with all those extra bronzes of wayne gretzky?

Um, I wish we could delete comments... lol I will STFU now.. :D

#119 Charles

Hey! Is this THE CHARLES?

I'm impressed.

Angry? Bitter? No way. I'm really having fun here tonight.

If you are the CHARLES I want to thank you for the post. This stuff is just too hilarious. I thought the win in the debate would be the high point until Tuesday but this takes the cake.

Listen I have some inside information on Edwards. Seems he was seen having his suits altered today and there was an Asian looking geek in the store. If I were you I would have Fox do a lot of closeups on the hem of his right trouser leg. Word is the thread was an optical fiber.

Hug? What are you Log Cabin?? Getoutahere.

TENRING IF YOU ARE{INDEED} SAYING IT WAS A PEN THEN YOU SHOULD RETHINK YOUR POSITION.IT WAS A FOLDED PIECE OF PAPER AT 6:03 MT AND A BLACK PEN AT 6:32ET.

AND IT AIN'T GOING TO BED CAUSE ITS ONLY 7:30 PT

#115 billib

Kerry spoke better. Bush looked tired and over-rehearsed. Bush is, frankly, an awful public speaker. Whichever advisor told him to keep repeating 'hard work' needs to be spoken to, harshly.

What Kerry said was appalling. What Bush said, however badly, was to the point.

Stop insulting people who have a problem with dishonesty in small matters, because that tends to indicate dishonesty in large ones.

My theory:

Somehow the video was too blurry for me to make out what Kerry removed from his pocket. I only thought it looked like a piece of paper. I mistook removing a pen cap for unfolding a piece of paper. Then Kerry smoothed existing papers on the lectern. My eyes deceived me. It would not be the first time. That's why they have instant replay in the NFL.

128 Beagle

I couild not agree with you more.

I swear - sometimes I wish there were a shirt that said - "Anybody but Kerry..."

#128 Beagle,

Seethe on, as I'm still voting for Bush. If Bush drools through the next debate, and says "ah" 200 times, I'm still voting for him. Kerry has done nothing, ever, to suggest I can trust him on foreign policy.

Same here.
Even if I was no fan of Bush (I am somewhat but not completely), and hated a lot of what he's done, I couldn't vote for Kerry merely for hating Bush.
If Bush has put the US in a frying pan, then voting for Kerry is like jumping into the fire.

#131 bilbo

Getoutahere.

As you should.

#115 billib 10/4/2004 07:22PM PST

What was the most memorable remark by Kerry? ...

Other than "I have a plan" ... and "We should give the Iranians the nuclear fuel" ... and oh yeah ... something about a global test ...

Is it the fact he is going to get all the "Allies" together to go and win the war because Hey ... we (GWB) screwed up big time and ... you guys need to send your guys over here to fight ... since I promised everyone I would get the hell out of Iraq as soon as I can ...

Talk about sheep?

GWB ain't no "Dan Rather" ... but he sure knows what he is talking about ...

#130

Our bewildered misguided confused liberal friends tonite are just beating you up cause Dan Rather won't respond to their e-mails. Maybe we can get Dan and Teresa (btw how do you spell her name?) and Moore together and see what knid of mindless, factless media hype they can whip up.

I still want to know the source of such a clear picture. Did this or did this not come from the foxnews channel? Did someone photoshop it in?

#104 cal2bered 10/4/2004 07:15PM PST

OK, enough crap from me. I posted this elsewhere, got no response. I thought it was an interesting way to present information accurately. Nobody cared, boohoo for me. Maybe it is more crap but here goes...
[Link: www.geog.ucsb...]

Those look vaguely obscene.

#114 Cornholio

From Teresa?!! No-o-o-o! Flee screaming into the night at the thought, have you seen her fingernails?

No, but she's rich enough to pay for a chair massage for every voter who comes to the polls, and has to wait in line forever and ever. I hate lines, and get very impatient. A massage would relax me.

Yup, it was "only a pen".

And the Brits, Aussies, and Poles were "only bribed and coerced".

They both equate to the same thing: "Nothing matters but voting Democrat in an election year".

#99

I meant other instances of cheating in his career.

Kerry has expanded the Global Test...it must include "elsewhere" now...

Posted by William at "the new solider"

Flenser, holy crap -- Kerry has absolutely lost his mind.

"I can do a better job of protecting America's security because the test that I was talking about was a test of legitimacy, not just in the globe, but elsewhere."

- John Kerry
October 4, 2004
[Link: edition.cnn.c...]

anybody got a guess...mars, I KNOW UR_ANUS...

142 a noble vision 10/4/2004 07:37PM PST

yes, disturbingly so. A coincidence that it is FL?

Kerry can't do anything without cheating -- look how the DNC came out with debate videos showing Bush as 'tired' and stumbling over his words within hours of the debate even when they expressly agreed not to use debate video.

(Failing to mention that Bush had just spend the day in short sleeves helping hurracane victims while Kerry spend the day getting a manicure and rehearsing his lines.)

Now we have SKerry cheating by bringing his own pen. What was wrong with the pen supplied?

Oh - thats right rules dont apply to blue-blood aristrocrats like Kerry and Teresa. sorry. I just know that the MSM would have had a field day if it was Bush.

What is wrong with you narrow minded fascist conservatives ???

What? A pen cannont be nuanced enough to totally flip-flop from white to black ???

Did I put enough question marks ???

#144 Black Republican

THE POLES!! Remember, he kept forgetting the Poles? Do you think Kerry actually knew something there too?

Maybe he kept forgetting the Poles because he knew they were going to tell W today that they were getting the hell out as soon as possible.

I bet he cheated and got that information before hand.

#121 TenRing...

Yeah... been a long day... I was totally off with the timezones... otherwise I would have realized that it was just a replay... thanks for finding that photo though... puts this issue to rest... :)

Dalai Lama not so bright
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

#146 dustyroadguy

not just in the globe, but elsewhere."

HUH???¿¿¿¿???

I knew Kerry and the Ketchup Kqueen were spacey but...LOL

The Black Republican (#144)

And we're the ones called sheeple. Ironic, huh? At least I like, make that LOVE, my candidate. I'd venture to say there's a vast enthusiasm gap between myself and billib for our respective candidates.

#132 foggy

(how appropriate)

TENRING IF YOU ARE{INDEED} SAYING IT WAS A PEN THEN YOU SHOULD RETHINK YOUR POSITION.IT WAS A FOLDED PIECE OF PAPER AT 6:03 MT AND A BLACK PEN AT 6:32ET.

Caps lock stuck?

Two different broadcasts, one the night of the debate and the second angle from today's background video - and it could have been rebroadcast many times since so there are bound to be yet more sequences with FOXnews time inserts on them, all different.

Uncage your gyros and stabilize your thinking, willya?

I'm as anxious as anyone to get a smoking gun on JF'nK, but I am also bright enough to recognize the facts.

If you're not viewing the sequence on a high end editor (such as Final Cut) using a good monitor and uncompressed orignals, you are gonna see less and interpret more. IOW the compressed streams you capture over the web won't show you much in the way of true detail.

It's the same thing that happens when we're driving at night and see a dead dog in the road ahead - then we get closer and see it's really a discarded piece of carpet. But our minds put together 'dog', fitting our experiences and expectations (or prejudices, if you must) to the vague shapes and forms.

I wish it had been notecards or a PDA - but one thing I'm not, and that is blinded by hatred.

I'm despising JF'nK eyes wide open!

#131 billib

??? WOW ?!?!?

Are you what passes for a troll these days ???

Isn't Darwinism great ?

#79 Billib

Neither are you and the wonderful Charles. What you did is no different than Rather and Maples. You published a statement that was not true and then AFTER publishing the statement went after the truth.

This illustrates a striking ignorance (or denial) of how the internet folks work together to peel away layers of obfuscation. Someone has a moment of brilliance, and then everyone else pitches in to get to the bottom. Until something is proven or dis-proven, it remains a work in progress.

And as Charles has demonstrated, both sides of an argument are subject to scrutiny...and even he is not above an apology.

OTOH, CBS runs a story as gospel. End of story. No discussion, please. This is a system that has been proven corruptible time and again.

And they never apologize unless it's too little too late.

TO: Charles Johnson
RE: Folding Movements

What type of pen was this? A fancy fountain pen? If so, pulling the cap off, reversing the pen, putting the cap on the tail of the pen and then putting pen down on the lecturn could look like two unfolding movements.

RE: This Image

Why aren't we seeing more shots of Kerry with this pen held so prominently at that particular moment? Were there NO cameras on him except the one that TenRing captured?

Regards,

Chuck(le)

#131 billb

Hug? What are you Log Cabin?? Getoutahere.

Hey, aren't you enlightened liburulz supposed to be more compassionate than us neo-cons? You sure sound like a homophobe to me. We respect our gay posters over here, because we walk the walk, not just talk the talk like you schmucks. Now giddafuggouttahere and go back to the DU wankfest, tool...

P.S. Seriously. If the pen was so blatantly visible, why didn't the judges do something IMMEDIATELY?

#151 billib

Maybe he kept forgetting the Poles because he knew they were going to tell W today that they were getting the hell out as soon as possible.

You left-wing nut jobs are never very big on actual facts. The Poles suggested they would like to be out of Iraq by the end of 2005. Maybe in your world, Bizarro World, that is "as soon as possible"?

In my world that would be today or tomorrow.

Seems to me that if anything, he's seein the same thing we are in the Pew and ABC/WaPo...he might have won the debate, but folks still ain't buying his line of bullshit...

If he had any traction, he'd think about re-investing ads in battleground states he's pulled out of (like Arizona, Mizzou, etc.), but instead, he's pulled his ads in Virginia now too and focusing in on Minnesota and Wisconsin...

Keep deluding yourselves, LLLs...it'll make it funnier when you see Gunga Dan, Mumbles, and Al-Canucko (no offense to the Canadian Lizards) calling it for Bush on 11/2 and trying not to swallow a .357 slug afterwords...

he=Kerry

PIMF
PIMF
PIMF

OT: Kerry flips, flops, dies on the bank gasping for breath.

Mark Simone

#115 Bilib

I had a wolf for dinner tonight. It was delicious! ONE LESS WOLF.

Sheepdogess

OK Trolls --Now that you have had your fun with all the pettiness you can go to very real partisian Kerry website where they are discussing more serious issues.

[Link: forum.johnkerry.com...]

Such as: Bush Blows Debate: Talks to Rove in Earpiece!
180 comment(s).

During the strictly regulated presidential debates, did George Bush come up with his own push lines, or was someone feeding him his ideas through an earpeace?

Did president Bush commit His worst blunder yet by telling some invisible person to "let me finish." Was this simply his odd way of talking or did he point in the air and ask for more time on accident. He certainly wasn't talking to John Kerry as video evidence shows that he was busy writing and listening quietly. Bush wasnt under any time pressure as he was 60 seconds into his 90 and only a single green light on his indicator had come on.

#162 chuck

*ahem* There are/were no judges. This was not a college debate team challenge ;)
This was an agreement between the two camps.

Also agreed not to use video from the debates in their ads. Took the DNC, what, less than 24 hours to have one running of Bush looking tired and irritated?

#146,

The Vulcan ambassador has already dismissed Kerry's call for a "galactic test". In a subspace statement to al-Jeef News Agency, he said that Kerry's standings in the polls indicate that humanity is not yet logical enough to pass, but that today's launch of a commercial spaceplane shows that we have hope to join the Federation as soon as we can develop warp drive.

And it’s a bit depressing that this country is now willing to accept blatant flouting of debate rules, because it was “only a pen.”

Oh come on! Reality check time!

Charles, I love your blog, I visit several times a day, but this is silly. If you're depressed that the country correctly recognizes that a pen is only a pen and not a "blatant flouting of debate rules", then you've lost all perspective and need a break.

#147 Rayra

Already did. See #112

That's 35 posts earlier than yours, and 21 after the post you mentioned.

#161 Clutch

I guess I'm the only one who isn't allowed to use sarcasm?

Walk the Walk? Just what is it you with respect to a person's right to be gay other than try to create legislation to restrict their rights to the point of making it a constitutional amendment?

Walk away from the crack pipe.

#162 ... because ... Jim Lehrer (?) was the only judge ... PBS ... ???

I don't care what he took out of his pocket. It doesn't matter what it was. It was forbidden in the rules that he agreed to abide by.
The LLL minions can belittle me all they want. You can say I am petty, I don't care. YOU DON"T GET IT!
He violated the rules.
It is one of many examples that Kerry believes he is above the rules.

#160 Chuck Pelto

Thanks. I had a brain fart regarding 'Log Cabin.' He/she must be one of the more inclusive liberals.

#167 sheepdogess

Your nic kicks as* :-)

#159

Careful. Scientific method, critical analyses, and peer review are advanced concepts. Bilib's brain may explode and make a big mess. Well maybe a small mess.

#162

P.S. Seriously. If the pen was so blatantly visible, why didn't the judges do something IMMEDIATELY?

Think about it.

You're the moderator (Jim Lehrer) and you see one of the participants violating the protocol.

You're about to be interlocutor between the most important office holder in the world and the man who wants that job. There are millions of people around the world watching an event that was negotiated, planned, and argued over details for months.

And you're gonna stop the procedure so you can examine a fuggin BIC PEN?

Even though I have little regard for Lehrer, I truly believe if he'd seen something more suspicious (such as note cards, PDA, etc.) even he would have have found a way to address it. Because as a TV vet, he understands that (hee) "The Camera Never Blinks."

Find a live horse to whip.

#171 Dar ul Harb

Yet another flop.
From a global test to a galactic test.

Or perhaps, it is THK's test. A medical test for everyone on day one when we all get government, free health care---the Congress be damned.
What need to bother them with the details.

#174 bilib

The FMA is DOA. Next?

It's hell even lurking round here anymore.

Look at this.

Kerry: American Foreign Policy Must Satisfy Extra-terrestrials

[Link: powerlineblog.com...]

I'm having a real hard time convincing myself I'm not dreaming this stuff up!

TO: Charles Johnson
RE: I Still Don't Know

I just looked at the mpg provided earlier and it looks a lot more like a piece of paper than it does a pen.

More images from the front are needed. Preferably in movie format. Or with a lot better resolution than what we've seen so far.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

#181 Beagle

Psssttt...FMA...???

According to the rules: a pen is allowed, prepared notes are not allowed.

Regarding Chuck Pelto's question about Kerry's folding movements, it appeared he was unfolding paper to me, not handling a pen.

I'll reserve judgement until I see video footage from the front showing either a pen, or a piece of paper.  A still image from the an unknown point in the debate is not convincing to me.  At issue, is what occurred in the beginning of the debate.

This whole issue may seem petty, but taking prepared notes to a debate when the rules say no prepared notes or props allowed strikes me as massively dishonest.

The rules explicitly state that the moderator is to stop the debate, should any prepared notes or props be brought out.
 

TO: glwing
RE: Okay

"*ahem* There are/were no judges. This was not a college debate team challenge ;)" -- glwing

As we would say in the military, "Who's in charge of this jug f---? Where's the OIC?"

Someone from whomever set up this thing should have been there. Who was it supposed to be?

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Pocketgate? Let's sum it up like this:

Fake, but accurate.

I know I'm going to regret this, but I would swear that when I dropped into this thread, Charles' post used the word 'flaunt.' I got all prissy, and now it says, properly, 'flout.'

Did this really happen, or did I suffer from an English language hallucination?

billib

You know, you have to have a "right" before someone can "take it away."

flog that dead horse all you want, but you're the one making homophobic cracks.

A few issues, eh?

185 William, et al

(c) No props, notes, charts, diagrams, or other writings or other tangible things may be brought into the debate by either candidate.

(d) Notwithstanding subparagraph 5(c), the candidates may take notes during the debate on the size, color and type of paper each side prefers. Each candidate must submit to the staff of the Commission prior to the debate all such paper and any pens or pencils with which a candidate may wish to take notes during the debate, and the staff or commission will place such paper, pens and pencils on the podium, table or other structure to be used by the candidate in that debate.

What part of NO TANGIBLE THINGS are you having trouble with!
Pens are only allowed if they were requested in advance and were placed on the podium beforehand.

Well, perhaps it is going to bed but it shouldnt! This whole broohaha is filled with silly irony. It all started because CBS News failed to take due diligence in the crap it disseminates to the voters. It has come thus far with Fox news putting a legitimate true story aside due to a lack of due diligence.

We all saw what we saw when we saw the Democratic candidate for the office of President of the United States lay out a cheat sheet in the debate after signing an agreement not to. Somehow we have been made to feel silly for noticing.

Well it isn't silly! It is one of the most Godawful realizations that I have ever had to face that the TRUTH is being trated so shabbily.

Everyone makes mistakes but John Kerry runs roughshod over the truth and it is not a mistake on his part, it is his strategy.

I would like to get on a high horse and declare that THIS WILL NOT STAND but it would appear that his strategy very well may work. If it does, may God have mercy on us all.

#184 RWC

Quick Google to make sure I got that right...

Federal Marriage Amendment

There is no way the FMA will make it past the U.S. Senate. It is possible, if the DOMA (Defense of Marriage Act) is overturned some day by the USSC (U.S. Supreme Court), they will try to pass an amendment along the lines of the overturned DOMA. But that is waaay down the road.

#177 Right Wing Conspirator

Thanks! It's hard work, but I love it!

# 186 Chuck,
The two camps...the 32 page doc that both sides agreed to.

Where were those in charge? In "spin alley" waiting to talk to the reporters when it ended.

As for the OIC...in my mind, that's us ;)

OT Why does Kerry want our soldiers out of Iraq so soon? Because Kofi has other plans for them.
I wonder if Kofi's rationale for sending troops there would stand up to his own pessimistic musings over Iraq?

zombie, Tenring, and Charles,

Thank for looking at it.
Thank you for taking the time to make the screenshots and video available for us to see for ourselves, and judge for ourselves what we saw.

#187 Americanmale

Yep.

And welcome to LGF :-)

#185 William

You're gonna look pretty silly in a couple of hours.

I'd drop it now, if I were you.

Because as anxious as I was to find some real, hard dirt on Kerry, I am equally as fond of exposing irrational thinking at all points of the political spectrum.

Ignorance is excusable. The first time. Willful ignorance should be a capital crime. Just call me a Social Darwinist.

The one thing we LGFer's don't need is more instances of piling on after the play has been whistled that the LLL trolls can link to.

Save your passion for the rest of the fight.

TO: glwing
RE: OIC

"As for the OIC...in my mind, that's us ;)" -- glwing

Not quite. If we were the OIC, we'd have had a direct line to Lehrer that would have had him spring-butt up and snatch whatever it was from Kerry's lecturn.

The OIC is the senior character on the scene from the group that set up the debates. Who was that? That's one of the people I want to hear from now.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

#197

I was about to say the same thing. Thank you.

I'm grateful for this.

115 billib

No one --not one person in any of these threads has blamed Bush not "winning" the debate because Kerry took out a pen.

The winner is going to be the one who wins the election not the debate. I don't care if Kerry wins ALL the debates as long as GWB wins the election.

#197, 201

You're welcome.

T'warn't nothin', folks.

#193 Beagle

Some day,...I will learn not to be such a lazy as*...

Google is so easy :-) even I can,...well,...sometimes do it.

#194 Sheepdogess

Now, let me ask ya - is that kind of like Sheep Dog Goddess ???

Or is it an intentional mis-spelling of sheepdogs ?

well know, someone is reading too much into this nic ;-P

After calling for Rather's apology, I should think that the prudent course of action would be to issue one. The moral high road is a little difficult to claim when you don't follow the golden rule.

#200 Chuck

If we were the OIC, we'd have had a direct line to Lehrer that would have had him spring-butt up and snatch whatever it was from Kerry's lecturn.

ROFL...now that I would have liked to see.

Ok, LGFers. Time to move on to a new subject.
Voter fraud is what concerns me. It is everywhere!

205 bones

For what do you demand an apology?

Reading over all the comments--none was more illustrative of the perils of compression than #31:

penis mightier than sword

#174 billib,

Just what is it you with respect to a person's right to be gay other than try to create legislation to restrict their rights to the point of making it a constitutional amendment?

Since when did 2 men have a right to marry each other? Sorry, but what the gay activists and out-of-control judiciary are doing is taking away the rights of the majority of Americans to retain the traditional definition of marriage...

I agree that it's absurd to need a constitutional amendment to protect the very definition of marriage, but that's about the only protection left against a bunch of robed elitists who "discover" new constitutional rights when needed to overrule the little people.

#196 mich-again

You know, your post leads to a question I've completely overlooked.

What if the "global partners" (i.e. the UN) decide there is a "threat" to France, or Germany, etc.?

Would Kerry commit troops for the security of the UN, but not for the security of his own country?

Iron Fist (#169)
I'd settle for a vacuum cleaner hose attached to the tail pipe wafting sweet, sweet CO into the idling car. Much easier in the cleanup than your suggestion.

#79 billib

I really do thank you for doing this though because it has provided great folly for us trolls.

AAAaaahahhahahahaha!

There's no troll like a dumb troll! Brilliant!

Thanks for the laugh, sillib!

#190 Darlene

No issues here.

Live and let live. Whatever two people want to do is their business.

It's only republicans that feel that we should all be doing things according to the word of George.

But I guess what you're saying is is that gay people DON'T have rights to begin with therefore you aren't messing with their rights when you propose amendments to the constitution. I'll accept that as you're answer to my question to Clutch.

#207 Americanmale

No problem...just watch out for Friday nights here :-)

It can get a little hairy.

I just think that doing unto others as you would have them do unto you is a good rule of thumb. The cheat sheet business trod the line between conjecture and bearing false witness.

I just think that it is time that we get back to conservative values, and that means making sure that what we say is accurate.

Let's leave the conspiracy theories to the tinfoil hat wearers. We're stronger if we wait until we have all of our "i"s dotted and "t"s crossed.

#214 billib

First, YOU are the one that made a snide remark directed toward gay American.

Second, no one is denying anyone the right to be gay as you so wrongly posted.

Third, gay couples can sign any legal binding agreement they want but why is it necessary to call it a marriage unless, of course, you wish to destroy the meaning of marriage.

And don't come back with they need it for wills or to visit someone in a hospital because that is simply not true.

And, yes, I am a Conservative Christian Republican and *gasp* I have gay friends that are also Republicans.

Marriage, dear billib, is not just a Christian concept incase you hadn't noticed.

#214 billib

Please...stop...now...

You are really going to (or making) an as* of yourself.

It's only republicans that feel that we should all be doing things according to the word of George.

Ahhh,...that is so adorable.

TO: bones
RE: Being Accurate Is Essential

"I just think that it is time that we get back to conservative values, and that means making sure that what we say is accurate." -- bones

However, right now I don't think we have enough information.

I see one item that looks like a pen (above). In another item I see what looks more like a piece of off-white paper (the QuickTime movie from earlier today).

In a situation where I have two conflicting sources of information, I feel a need to find more information to confirm on case or the other.

That's why I'm asking "Where are the other camera recordings of this?" Surely all cameras were on ALL the time." Considering the height of the hand movement and the level of the lecturn, this would be plainly visible to one of the cameras keying on Kerry as he approached the lecturn.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

216

I missed where an accusation was made. What I have read are legitiamte questions asked for a legitimate reason, i.e. nothing should have removed froma candidates pocket. Not a pen, a piece of paper or anything. Kerry did. He violated the rules.

Rather didn't ask questions. He used forged documents that he should have known not to use to slant the outcome of a presidential election.

If you can't see the difference you have an agenda.

b illib:

Here’s a three-frame composite by LGF operative TenRing, just to put this story to bed:

Charles opened this thread, and TenRing has admitted the we were probably mistaken. If and when we are wrong here we admit it. That is integrity-- something that JF'n K utterly lacks. Are you having a good time playing troll? I've got another game you might like. You take a paper bag, see, and you fill it with dog poop and put it on someone's porch...

#210 thinkingmom

Think harder (no pun intended).

"discover" new constitutional rights

As a true, literal Constitutiionalist I must disagree.

All rights are unalienable and God-given. Governments can only restrict our rights-by-Nature. Or restore and protect them.

Moreover, a right need not be enscribed to be valid:

U.S. Constitution - Bill of Rights

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

In plain language, people have the right to do darned near anything they want, short of harming others, unless it is specifically prohibited by law. Nor would I have it any other way.

Whether the State (by action of its citizens) should sanction, recognize, support, or restrict any right is open for discussion.

#216

I apologize for expecting John Kerry to follow all the rules in the agreement. I apologize for allowing my mistrust of him to ascribe dishonorable intent to his turning his back to the audience to pull an object out of his pocket. I apologize for suspecting him of disrespect for the viewers and voters based upon these actions.

That's it, I think. Will that do it for you?

He HAD to bring his own pen. He'll only write with a Mont Blanc, he couldn't possibly be seen to use a mere Bic!
I'm almost waiting for him or someone to trot out a touching story about how it was given to him by some long-suffering supporter.
What really bothers me is that spit-eating grin he's wearing. Eeeew.

#210 Thinkingmom

I'm really sorry I got on this because it isn't a real important issue but:

Is the traditional definition of marriage the only thing that you are really concerned about? If so then change the definition of marriage between gays to "a union". I'll bet they'll accept it sould you?

Do you really see allowing two males or females to get married as overruling the little people. Even if you did is it that agregious? I think overruling the majority of the countries voters is worse.

#204 Right Wing Conspirator

Sheepdogess, n. 1. a bitch trained to guard sheep; shepherd's dog: often a border collie. favorite food, WOLVES. 2. Figuratively, a chaperon.

Sheep are uncomfortable around them, wolves hate them.

billb = exceedingly unoriginal troll.

225 Coastygirl

That's right. You're on target.

The truth is, it was given to him by a KGB operative while on a secret mission in Nam. Did you know he was in Nam?

billib

Are you really that stupid or do you just play it on the 'net?

Exactly which "rights" do you think Republicans (ooo! evil Rethuglicans!) think gays should not have?

What legislation have "Rethugs" introduced to ban homosexuality? Are they tossing gays into internment camps? Have the black helicopters swooped down into Frisco or West Hollywood?

Gays have the exact same rights to marry as any straight. Marriage contract code says just one man/one woman ... it doesn't ask the sexual orientation of the man or woman.

Now you may find that a facetious answer. However, marriage is contract law, and while the state has found it in the interest of the public good to restrict marriage to ONE man/ONE woman - unrelated and of a certain age; that doesn't "take away" from the rights of people who doen't meet the criteria anymore than denying a pilot's license to a blind person is a usurpation of that person's "right" to pilot a plane.

At some time in the future, society may find it advantegeous to change the parameters of marriage contract law. But that is the role of the legislature not city mayors or judges. You don't like the FMA? Well, neither do a lot of people, but it gains traction when self-serving idiots like Frisco's Mayor Newsom pisses on the law and the people.

There are very very few things that a same-sex couple cannot arrange through private contract that access to default marriage contract will grant them now.

Now take your faux gay-rights outrage and go bait someone else.

To: Chuck (#220)
RE: Being accurate

I should make it clear that I think that questions are essential to keeping things honest. I think that the long Republican history of demanding fiscal responsibility speaks to this.

That being said, I also grow weary of having "my side of the border" going off half-cocked... It is a slippery slope between asking a question, asking a leading question, and making an accusation.

I just think that we as conservatives would be able to claim the moral high ground much more clearly if we paid a little more attention to ensuring that we did not slide down that slope.

To me, the interesting thing is how many people were convinced that in those blurry images they saw a Kerry take a white piece of paper out of his pocket and unfold it. I suspected from the first that what people saw as a piece of paper was probably the back of Kerry's hand, and that the reflections of the light (much like those on his face) made it look white, but the images were too poor for me to be confident of that conclusion. It is an illustration of how profoundly bias can affect our perceptions and judgment. Of course, that is not something unique to any one side of the political spectrum--David Hailey's font study ([Link: imrl.usu.edu...] in which he insists that he can detect evidence of damaged typewriter keys in the blurry images of the discredited Killian memos is quite similar. I think the Bush administration's Iraqi WMD also fall into this category. It is very easy to see what we wish to see in noisy data

Yet hardly anybody seems to have learned the lesson of this error. Nobody is reevaluating their own credulity on other matters related to the campaign. Indeed, we have some people whose bias is so profound that they are seizing upon a minor error that is at worst a technical violation of the rules--one with no conceivable impact on the debate that provided no advantage to Kerry--as indicative of some grave character flaw. And of course, there are a few who fall into the tinfoil hat category, and who are still insisting that the pen must have contained some kind of display that Kerry used to cheat (the notion of Kerry squinting to read his responses off a tiny one-line display is particularly ludicrous).

211 Gabe,

There are many scenarios for France or Germany needing UN Peacekeepers. French Invasion
But even if it passes the global test, I say we skip that one.

#227 Sheepdogess

OK, thanks...I am a little slow tonight.

But, you did open a can of worms here :-P

Here's my bitch :-)

#226

Don't be ridiculous. If, and when, a state referendum is held and the people accept 'gay marriage', or simply redefine marriage, that will be fine. But judges and mayors should not be in the business of shoving their ideas down the throat of the people. If anything, that is delaying the day on which most people will accept the notion of gays marrying.

And no, some sort of 'union' isn't enough for many gay people.

I have no real opinion on this. But I do understand that for a lot of people, who see a basic social institution already under extreme pressure, they do not want someone in a robe deciding the issue for them.

I don't particularly want a Constitutional amendment. However, such things can be repealed if they are shown to be more trouble than they're worth.

Hmmm... might it be one of these? ;)

Just sayin' perhaps Democratic operatives were testing out the effects in Salt Lake City just before the debate?

After all, Dubya is a pilot... just put two and two together.

To: The Parson (221)

I just think that we went a little beyond asking what it was that he brought out of his pocket. I think we came much closer to accusing him of doing something.

My only agenda is to ensure that we've retain claim to a moral high road. I just think that we've come closer than I'm comfortable with to the line between asking questions and making an unsubstantiated accusation. That only weakens our position, not strenthens it.

#218 Glwing

Quite the contrary Glwing.

#190 Darlene wrote:
You know, you have to have a "right" before someone can "take it away."

Sounds to me like she is telling me that gay people don't have rights therefore you can't take them away.

And just what is the meaning of marriage that it must be between a man and a woman?

I ask because I am not a Conservative Christian Republican (whatever that is) and I want to be sure we see it the same. I see it as a union between two people based on love and caring for one another.

237 bones

I don't know who the "we" is to which you refer. Charles didn't, to my knowledge, make accusations. This is his board. We are guests. No one can control what the guests say. I don't know who is a legitimate responder and who might be a troll here to make trouble, perhaps by making accusations.
I can speak for myself. The only accusation I have made is that Kerry took something out of his pocket. That, alone, violates the rules.

Pens are trivial, scrutiny isn't. This matter will have passed in a day or two.

On the other hand, it's a pen thread. Pens are the reason it's here. It is not surprising to see pen speculation in a pen thread. Pens rise, fall, and pass away. This is their thread.

The message is that there are now more than rather, blather, and jennings watching and questioning.

Once this goes on the shelf of internet history it will have been dealt with and forgotten. No one (rational) is suggesting that the RNC make it the central point of the campaign. But the notion that every blogger and blogger-strap-hanger in netdom is leaning forward in his/her/its pajamas, hoping to score another coup on the networkocracy, has got to give them pause when they try to foist another pile of BS on the telefixed public.

The Question is the Message.

Thank you LGF for raising the question and then setting it straight. Would others had done the same.

#232 tgibbs

I think the Bush administration's Iraqi WMD also fall into this category.

A mass delusion which affects all the major intelligence agencies in the world. What a theory. I won't bother linking to the WMD moved to Syria just before the war articles. Something happened to the WMD, but their having never existed (the best of all possibilities) is simply not one of them. Saddam's WMD scientists don't buy your mass hallucination theory.

When a whole bunch of VX is released in a major western city, I will not feel like saying told you so. You are in a new world, one for which you are intellectually unprepared. Obsessing over partisan politics will not save your life. Sorry.

#223 Tenring

I concur. My contention is (and always has been) that marriage is not a "right."

Now individuals have a right to contract with others and the state must support that contract unless the state finds it against the public good. For instance, the state would never enforce a slavery contract no matter how voluntarily entered into (ie bond servants from an earlier era). The state also recognizes that a landlord/tenant relationship is inherently unequal in regards to power, thus sets up a whole host of statutes that spell out the rights and obligations of each person entering into such a contract. Indeed, if a landlord get some poor schmoe to sign a lease that runs contrary to state statutes, the state will invalidate the lease.

I believe gays have a strong argument FOR allowing civil marriage to include them when they stick to issues of "public good." They fail, miserablely, on the "right" because "we should be able to marry who we love" argument. Polygamists love each other. Adults of close familial relationships love each other. Exactly why shouldn't they be granted the "same right" under the same argument as gays?

Another proof that marriage is not a "right" is that if the state wanted to, it could get out of the marriage business altogether. Leave marriage as private/religious relationships with no civil recognition. Obviously this is not "banning" the "right" to marriage or restricting it. Just that the state has now taken a neutral stand on it. And couples would still set up housekeeping, marry in churches and be accepted in society as married couples.

During the strictly regulated presidential debates, did George Bush come up with his own push lines, or was someone feeding him his ideas through an earpeace?

I think this falls into the same category as Kerry's "cheat sheet". In Kerry's case, the cheat sheet notion was patently ridiculous from the beginning, simply because it is impossible speak persuasively to an audience while reading from a cheat sheet. But at least it is possible to understand why people who prefer not to think highly of Kerry would seek an alternate explanation for why he did so well.

The Bush accusation is ridiculous for a quite different reason. Bush botched the debate. Bush has some quite skilled speechwriters on his team. It is simply inconceivable that he would have done so badly if he'd had somebody whispering in his ear. At the very least, somebody would have gotten him to stop repeating what a "hard job" it is being President, which reinforced the image of Bush as a child of privilege who has never before had to do a hard day's work (and got him badly skewered on Saturday Night Live).

240 Mark IV

Well said, well said!

#238 billib

Again, you are being ridiculous.

Go back to Anthro 101, and ask about marriage. Its purpose is the protection of children and the preservation of property. Because societies have changed, certain portions of how we view marriage have changed as well. There are, however, still a great many legal implications, and tax implications, and survivor benefit implications remaining.

As Darleen pointed out, gays have exactly the same marriage rights as anyone else.

The notion that all it means is that two people love each other and are committing to each other is the least of what marriage means.

#238 You have a point ... but if Jf'nK hadn't broken the rules in the first place ... this "controversy" would not have happened ... may seem like a small point but the ability to follow simple rules reveals that there are no absolutes for Kerry ... (how hard is it to follow SIMPLE rules)
A very LARGE point for someone who wants to obtain power ... after all wasn't it the "small stuff" that took down Nixon??

#238, billib. Nobody around here gives a damn if you're gay, hell, we don't even care if you're happy.

To: Mark IV (240)

Pens are trivial. Making accusations of cheating is not. We've judged by what we say. If we expect the other side not to make similar accusations, we shouldn't. I think that the golden rule has been long since forgotten, and I wish that today's conservatives would remember it.

#226 billib

In the great blue state of CA, liberal bastion and home to Frisco and West Hollywood

Californians voted 60/40 to restrict in our family code the definition of marriage to one man/one woman.

Privately, most companies in this state allow domestic partners to receive benefits and gay couples are socially recognized as much.

For now, the People in CA have spoken. Not one state that has held a vote on this issue has approved changing the law beyond the one man/one woman definition.

#247 gymnast

#238, billib. Nobody around here gives a damn if you're gay, hell, we don't even care if you're happy.

LMFAO !!!

That was so good :-)

I see it as a union between two people based on love and caring for one another.

This is how the argument for same-sex marriage is always framed. Trundle out some "loving, committed" same-sex couple and claim that their rights are being violated.
In reality, same-sex marriage allows for any two people to marry for whatever reason they see fit. Can't get a visa? Want to bypass all those pesky citizenship requirements? Need government, or employee benefits? Someone wants to marry you. Call 1-800 ___Marriage then is no longer the foundation of society, but merely one more legal expedience.

#249 Darleen

CA is making progress towards redness. Arnold is technically still a republican though i half expect him to let out a diabolical laugh, grab his ears, pull his head open and out pop TWO Gray Davises (Davisi?).

I'm just glad he wasn't allowed to bring his new shotgun into the debate. Remember, he said he wanted to.

Kerry was presented with the semiautomatic shotgun during a Labor Day stop in Racine, West Virginia.

"I thank you for the gift, but I can't take it to the debate with me," Kerry told a cheering crowd as he held up the device.

who gives a rats ass if kerry used a pen...we all know that bussie couldn't form a complete phrase all night without looking like he was suffering from severe diahrea...

maybe you should worry less about pens, and more about whether or not the comander-the-thief has the mental capacity to carry on in a debate for more than 15 minutes...uh, uh, uh...wait a minute, let me finish...uh, uh...

LOL! Charles, put that whip down.

254 the kid

Twice as nice?

#254, the kid. As opposed to an "interstellar test"?

Some kid is going to get spanked in 5...4...3...2...

Thanks for the great discussion, folks.

I'm gonna hit the rack. Long day tomorrow.

#247 Gymnast

How you doing Gymnast. Didn't think I was going to hear from your lame musclebound brain tonight.

I'm not gay but I am really happy. It's been a real hoot getting off on all you guys trying to make something out of a magic pen.

Unfortunately TenRing is bringing some sense to the page and people are beginning to realize what asses you've made of yourselves and laying off.

Guess I'll call it a night and get some sleep too.

Damn TenRing why didn't you go to bed early? I also liked your post regarding constitutional rights. Maybe you could get George to stop f*** with ours.

I think wittle billb has gotten his dander up.

Lazytart,

It was the polls today...billib expected something different ;)

Does anyone remember any remarks about magic pens except as a sarcastic remark? I sure don't. Huh.

cal2

I really like Arnold. I've never envied him having to wrestle with the *CA legislature*

And anytime I use that ** phrase I always hear Obi Wan Kenobe's voice intoning "never will you find, a more wretched hive, of scum and villiany."

He keeps beating back the illegal alien driver's license bill (and keeps Gil Cedillo in seethe mode) and he's for prop 64 (which has the state trial lawyers panties in a knot). Those two things alone make me very happy.

#234 Nice Pooch!

#174 Billib

If the government sanctions same sex marriage, we can look forward to public school health education classes entitled "fisting for fifth graders", and any other really creepy, dangerous, unhealthy deviant behaviors one can think of. I don't think so dude.

#264 Dianna

No, BUT billib doesn't understand any statements that aren't filled with BUT.

It's a Kerry-kind-of-thing ;)

didn't have time to read all the comments so if this has already been covered- sorry- Its obvious that Mr Chardonay and Snails already had his flip pen in hand and was merely reaching for his flop pen. As an aside who the hell preps W its not that he didn.t have a solid presentaion its that somebody better get to him that TV is a visual medium. A smile in response indicates your opponents weakness while a scowl indicates that he scored a hit. What i'm going to say now is not very elegant but having been born during the depression and being a particpant during the greatest time in American history-including having the opportunity of serving my country during the Korean action-i hope that the American people will stay the course with our current leader, an honorable man. This is a time of great peril not only for our country but the world. We are at a crossroad and the decision as to direction cannot be made by commitee but only by a single honorable man. John F Kerry is not an honorable man. This is not religious but i pray that the American people make the right choice and believe me you should pray also. Armagedon is closer than you think.

#260 billib

Jaysus on a Pony, boy... you've just proven you don't know a "right" from a halibut.

Glwing,

ya think?

#260, billib. Well it is good to see that you are happy at least, and however fleeting your happyness is remember, it's only an election, and four years from now the Dems may find a candidate who is not a traitor and self confessed war criminal. They may even be able to find a happy candidate who is not the wife of a impeached philanderer, a person who is not a socialist limosine liberal. Indeed, the Party of Jefferson may find a candidate to oppose the Party of Lincoln who is an American who can lead all the American people. But it dosn't look like it from here.

Dammit! PIMF...

My remarks were meant to be addressed to Sheepdogess.

Iron Fist,

Hiya, darlin'!

What about good ole SALT??

#269

Thank you for your service, and I agree with you about the end. If Kerry wins this election, it will be a disaster for western civilization. The left is complaining about 1,000 casualities? That's nothin. The draft? Get ready gals. You will be called for duty if there is a draft. Thank you feminism.

Who will be held accountable? Who knows. They will probably blame Bush. They never accept any responsibility for any of their moronic decisions. Who will BE accountable? THE MAIN STREAM MEDIA and the morons in hollywood. !!!

OT Ever notice how ugly liberals are?

lazytart

O.mi.god. That article is just more proof that intelligence doesn't translate into common sense.

Polygamy is inherently exploitive of women.

argh.

#248

I can't say it was wilfull cheating. It does appear to have been a minor infraction of the rules. It is fair game to bring up... and a few will run too far with it even if it comes to naught.

If Bush had fingered le Pen (oo, that's ugly), it would be all over the evening news, the front of NYT, and a talking point on the Beeb. The libs need to be scrutinized somewhere, fer cryin' out loud, and I'm glad LGF is not waiting for PBS to pick up the theme.

IMO, Bush lost the debate all on his own. I will still vote for him and the staff he brings with him, based on their real, demonstrated merits. Even if I was in crazy luv with Kerry, the nutcases that ride in with him (and that he will appoint to federal benches) should be enough to dissuade any thinking person.

However: if nobody questioned anything, we would still be clucking over ol' George's dismal NG performance that even his CO could "not rate", or his mission accomplished "statement".

Those who follow the day-to-day of politics tend to think that everyone does. They don't. Uncountered sound bytes can be damaging. And Kerry did step out of bounds with the debate, and making some noise out here on the fringes keeps some pressure on. We can afford to be trivial from time to time. Under all this horseshit there has to be a pony, somewhere.

As it is, I am happy that the bahstids know they're being watched. Let them feel the red laser dot of independent scrutiny on their smug, collective foreheads.