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Bush Wins Going Away

Sat, Oct 9, 2004 at 7:58:28 am PDT

Reading the transcript of the second presidential debate is a revelation. The evasiveness and negativity of John Kerry stands out in sharp relief to the straight talk of George Bush.

But of course, mainstream media is doing everything possible to denigrate Bush and exalt Kerry; in just one out of dozens of similar articles, the Associated Press’s Ron Fournier writes: Bush Fights to Keep Emotions in Check.

WASHINGTON - President Bush smirked and winked and chuckled to himself. He jumped from his stool, chopped at the air and interrupted the debate moderator. As he fought to keep his emotions in check during a combative debate with Sen. John Kerry, the president jokingly said, “That answer almost made me want to scowl.”

Several answers brought Bush’s emotions to the surface, for better or worse, as he sought to curb Kerry’s momentum.

The question that hung over the second of their three debates was whether Bush’s aggressive, hyper style was an effective tool or a damaging habit — an extension of his disastrous first debate performance. Reviews were mixed.

Whatever, AP. LGF’s own totally unscientific poll, with 3900 votes as of this writing, shows an overwhelming defeat for John Kerry—the US version of Australia’s Mark Latham.

In your opinion, who won the second Presidential debate?

George W. Bush
3163
81.1%

John F. Kerry
737
18.9%

And this is in spite of a call by the morons at Daily “Screw Them” Kos to “freep” our poll.

This exchange with Senator Kerry about Iran’s nuclear aspirations shows the man’s suicidal nuclear-freeze mentality; the most important part of his plan to deal with Iran seems to be for the US to unilaterally disarm, so that we can pass the Global Test and regain our moral standing in the eyes of the French.

Q. Iran sponsors terrorism and has missiles capable of hitting Israel and southern Europe. Iran will have nuclear weapons in two to three years time. In the event that U.N. sanctions don’t stop this threat what will you do as president? In the event that U.N. sanctions don’t stop this threat, what will you do as president?

Mr. Kerry I don’t think you can just rely on U.N. sanctions, Randee. But you’re absolutely correct. It is a threat. It’s a huge threat. And what’s interesting is it’s a threat that has grown while the president has been preoccupied with Iraq where there wasn’t a threat. If he’d let the inspectors do their job and go on, we wouldn’t have 10 times the number of forces in Iraq that we have in Afghanistan chasing Osama bin Laden.

Meanwhile, while Iran is moving toward nuclear weapons, some 37 tons of what they call yellowcake, the stuff they use to make enriched uranium. While they’re doing that, North Korea has moved from one bomb, maybe, maybe to four to seven bombs. For two years, the president didn’t even engage with North Korea, did nothing at all while it was growing more dangerous. Despite the warnings of people like former Secretary of Defense William Perry, who negotiated getting television cameras and inspectors into that reactor. We were safer before President Bush came to office.

Now they have the bombs, and we’re less safe. So what do we do? We’ve got to join with the British and the French, with the Germans who have been involved in their initiative. We’ve got to lead the world now to crack down on proliferation as a whole. But the president’s been slow to do that even in Russia. At his pace, it’s going to take 13 years to reduce and get ahold of all the loose nuclear material in the former Soviet Union. I’ve proposed a plan that can capture it and contain it and clean it within four years. And the president is moving to the creation of our own bunker-busting nuclear weapon. It’s very hard to get other countries to give up their weapons when you’re busy developing a new one. I’m going to lead the world in the greatest counterproliferation effort. And if we have to get tough with Iran, believe me, we will get tough.

“Getting tough” will obviously not include using bunker busters. He’s throwing those away.

Please note: the questioner specifically mentioned the threat to Israel. But Kerry not only avoided bringing up Israel in his response to this question, he didn’t say the word “Israel” once in the entire debate.

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93 comments

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1 Shinken  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:01:25am

OT

get a load of this picture

[Link: apnews.myway.com...]

Is that dove in front of the muslim hoard supposed to be a subliminal suggestion?

Seriously, most good photo editors would shitcan that picture.

2 gbl  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:06:58am

"...But Kerry not only avoided bringing up Israel in his response to this question, he didn’t say the word “Israel” once in the entire debate."

The fact is that most of the evening Kerry did not answer questions "directly". Somehow if the question involved foriegn policy he would invoke, "...but this President", "worse job creation", "healthcare", etc. Everything but answering the question directly. The guy loves to throw tons of words out for simple, direct questions.

3 traveler  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:07:05am

AP's weak headline reminds me of the joke: George Bush could walk on water and the MSM would scream "Bush Can't Swim!"

How can you spot a liberal? They (childishly) can't give credit where it's due......

4 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:07:09am

What exactly doe one have to do to regain moral standing in the eyes of the French. Turn your back on a friend?

5 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:07:37am

George Bush, on the other hand, said he wouldn't negotiate with Yasser Arafat despite the fact this is "unpopular" in Europe.


Of course, an unscientific LGF poll doesn't mean much. Of course, neither does an unscientific MSNBC or CNN poll mean much, when clearing cookies is all that is required to vote over and over.

6 chris_l  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:08:46am
When it came to stem cells and Kerry invoked Michael J. Fox (who Kerry called Michael Keaton the other day) I sorta wished that Bush said something like, "I love Michael J. Fox. John Candy and Michael J. Fox are my two favorite Canadian actors and I feel for his current sickness but I don't think it's wise to count on Hollywood types for policy decisions whether it be Michael J. Fox on stem cells or Barbara Streisand on noise pollution." (I know that this comment probably would not have played very well but anyway.... )

More reactions to the debate - HERE

7 Maine's Michael  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:09:35am

Funny Kerry didn't mention Israel, given that he claims some jewish ancestry.

Perhaps it's because he also has some muslim ancestry, according to his spinmeisters.

Of course, during his non answer on the abortion question, he rambled on about his catholicism.

John Kerry, a man for all seasons.

He's a lot like the weather in Maine. If you don't like his stance on something, wait 15 minutes.

8 Ann  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:09:43am
The question that hung over the second of their three debates was whether Bush’s aggressive, hyper style was an effective tool or a damaging habit


I was annoyed as I read this, but it quickly hit me that again, the left's anger and frustration is an excellent sign!

9 Nancy  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:10:16am

With Kerry, one really needs to see the written transcript just to figure out what he has said.

He is starting to remind me of Haily --CBS memo shame in that his you have to wade through a lot of excessive rhetoric to decipher what his point is --and it usually doesn't support what he claims his position is.

10 sunny  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:10:26am

per MSNBC:

No. of times buzzwords were used:

Pres. Bush
Terrorists—17
Wrong—7
My opponent—7
Taxes—26
Threat—10
Iraq—10

Sen. John Kerry
The president—68
Plan—33
Iraq—11
Lost jobs—10
Alliance—9


My opponent vs. the president is interesting

11 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:11:46am

Of course, the whole point of stuffing on-line polls, I believe, is that there is always a small percentage of especially feeble minded people, who want to vote for the winner.


I have observed this in athletic contests. back in college, in the TV room, everyone rooting for the 49-ers in the SuperBowl against Denver. "Is anyone here from San Francisco? Are you life long fans?"


"No, but San Francisco is going to win."

Maybe a corollary to bin Laden's "weak horse, strong horse" theory.

12 davesax  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:12:02am

Meanwhile, while Iran is moving toward nuclear weapons, some 37 tons of what they call yellowcake, the stuff they use to make enriched uranium.

Charles,

What I find so interesting about what you posted, is Kerry's inarticulateness. Martin Peretz recently addressed this in TNR. He said that while Bush is not a great speaker, Kerry's ability to explain himself clearly really is nothing to brag about. He used an example from one of Kerry's recent interviews.

Can you imagine if Bush had said, "I meant we don't have to pass a global test; we have to pass it from other places" or some such nonsense? The media would have been all over it for days.

What concerns me, though, is that the media spin machine is extremely aggressive. Kerry has free PR in this election: it's like nothing I've ever seen.

Can Bush win in the face of this malicious shilling for Kerry?

13 kawfytawk  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:12:20am

I knew the MSM would NEVER give Bush a fair shake. My only concern is that Bush wins at the polls in November!

I am glad the Australian vote went the way it has and that keeps me optimistic.

I have done my part...filled out my absentee ballot (of course checking to see if Kofi was peering in my livingroom window...smirk)

Now it's up to the voters...I will have faith that the general public, the ordinary joe, if you will...will make the right choice in November. Frankly, in my view, our security and sovereignty depends on it.

14 blt  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:15:07am

I didn't get to watch the debate and haven't read the transcript yet, but got home in time to flip through channels and catch the talking head wrap-up afterwards.

I knew Bush must have "won going away" when I heard Dan Rather say "Bush supporters will claim their man won. Kerry supporters will claim their man won." If that is the best spin that Rather could put on Kerry's performance then Bush must indeed have been quite spectacular.

Unfortunately, Rather's comment is true. But also nothing new.

15 lewisge  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:15:19am

This says it all....

debate summary photo

16 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:16:05am

Kerry's answer on the abortion question, if you read between the evasions and such, is that he believes abortion is a constitutional right (which I don't believe, I think you have to do some severe mental contortions to find a constitutional right to abortion the way the Roe court did) and he also believes that if anything is a constitutional right, than it is the duty of the Federal government to pay for it.


We have a right to freedom of the press. Under kerry logic, carried to its logical end, the government is obligated to buy me a printing press or TV station.

17 gabe  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:16:41am

Fournier must have read ABC's memo.

18 Geepers  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:17:15am
For two years, the president didn’t even engage with North Korea, did nothing at all while it was growing more dangerous.

Now they have the bombs, and we’re less safe. So what do we do? We’ve got to join with the British and the French, with the Germans who have been involved in their initiative.

So the British, French and Germans though engaged, failed.

Kerry's plan? Join them.

19 mollyb  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:18:45am

On North Korea:

Bush answered this--and memorably--in followup:

"Of course, we're paying attention to these. It's a great question about Iran. That's why in my speech to the Congress I said: There's an "Axis of Evil," Iraq, Iran and North Korea, and we're paying attention to it. And we're making progress."

Axis of Evil--don't let people forget. They are forgetting....

20 Isobella  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:20:10am

I have another theory about stuffing the ballots...

If people think that Kerry has a better chance of winning - it's possible potential Kerry voters will stay home because they think it's in the 'bag'.

Just a thought

21 JustAHouseWife  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:20:42am

This made me cringe...

Sen. Kerry said:

I'm going to lead the world in the greatest counterproliferation effort.

Now he's going for President of the World.

also...

We're not going to go alone like this president did.


Man he's so disgusting. I wonder how the Polish Americans feel, or the British ones, etc.? (My in laws are first generation here from England I know how they feel)

Like President Bush said "People listen" Mr. Kerry; to the words that come out of your mouth. Unbelievable.

22 Nancy  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:21:00am

#12 davesax

I certainly agree that for all the touting of Kerry as an excellent debater and speaker --he does NOT explain clearly.

It does not appear to be just some of the time but a pattern of communication that is based on --as has been said --nuance and vagueness.

Doesn't that allow him to "change" his positions often because he won't clearly state --yes or no - right or wrong --and qualifies everything so it is more of an implication rather than a conviction?

It allows him to let the listener interpret it subjectively according to what they want it mean and he doesn't have to commit himself.

23 coldwarrior  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:22:29am

#1 Shinken

that's no dove...it'a a pidgeon, an urban rat with wings. I hope he is on a bombing run :)

24 stefania  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:22:45am

But i think that this poll might be scientific,couldn't it?

I don't think that much has changed since a couple of hours ago.

A BIT OF GOOD NEWS FOR THE BUSHIES

25 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:23:37am

OT

FROM ISRAPUNDIT:

Iraqi native arrested for terror plot


The F.B.I. says it has foiled a terrorist plot in Nashville by arresting a man who bought automatic weapons at a local Krispy Kreme donut shop on Thompson Lane.
33-year-old Ahmed Hassan Al-Uqaily was caught Thursday after buying machine guns, handguns, ammunition and hand grenades from an undercover agent.

He told investigators he was angry with the Jewish community, but as far as Channel 4 knows, there was not a specific target.

Channel 4 knew of this arrest on Thursday, but we agreed to cooperate with the U.S. attorney’s office to hold off reporting the story until Friday

26 johnCV  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:24:11am
Mr. Kerry: I don’t think you can just rely on U.N. sanctions, Randee. But you’re absolutely correct. It is a threat. It’s a huge threat. And what’s interesting is it’s a threat that has grown while the president has been preoccupied with Iraq where there wasn’t a threat. If he’d let the inspectors do their job and go on, we wouldn’t have 10 times the number of forces in Iraq that we have in Afghanistan chasing Osama bin Laden.

WTF? In one paragraph he says sanctions do not work, then he states that they would have worked in Iraq, along with a couple of hundred UNspectors.
In spite of the Duelfer report showing that the sanctions were riddled and collapsing.
In spite of the fact that france/germanychina wanted the reduce/elminate sanctions.

I'm sorry, but JF'nK is a clueless f*cking idiot. Although he did say it with style.....

27 JWM  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:25:40am

On the one hand I find the stuffing of on-line polls pathetic and laughable. On the other, I wonder if it doesn't foreshadow some very dirty dealing to come in the November elections. It would be the height of irony if these disgusting UN observers ended up unmasking the donks for the perfidious cheaters they are. We need a landslide for GWB. I think we'll get one but we can't relax, or get overconfident.
JWM

28 johnCV  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:25:46am

#1 Shunken

Isn't that a brown pigeon?

29 johnCV  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:26:03am

Sorry Shinken


PIMF

30 mpax  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:27:07am

I'm not sure what Kerry meant by this:
"And I want to make sure we have judges who interpret the Constitution of the United States according to the law."
In law school we learned that the law was interpreted in light of the Constitution, not vice versa.
A minor, point, maybe, but it irked me.

31 johnCV  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:29:06am

16 Ed Moran

Mr. Kerry I don’t think you can just rely on U.N. sanctions, Randee. But you’re absolutely correct. It is a threat. It’s a huge threat. And what’s interesting is it’s a threat that has grown while the president has been preoccupied with Iraq where there wasn’t a threat. If he’d let the inspectors do their job and go on, we wouldn’t have 10 times the number of forces in Iraq that we have in Afghanistan chasing Osama bin Laden.

I caught that too.
JF'nK is a scary, unprincipaled man who would do monumental damage to this country if elected.

32 remay1  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:29:28am

#12


What concerns me, though, is that the media spin machine is extremely aggressive. Kerry has free PR in this election: it's like nothing I've ever seen.

Can Bush win in the face of this malicious shilling for Kerry?


Bush can overcome the "shilling" only if he talks directly to the voters.

He needs to point out over and over again that he has been the president for four years. The people know what to expect from him. He has kept promises.

On the other hand, Kerry has only a failed carreer as a senator, a tainted war record, and a history of betrayal and active opposition to the military, intelligence and national security... if you strip away all of the "used car salesman" rhetoric.

Anybody can make promises. They're cheap. That's Kerry's whole package.

Bush has proven to be an effective leader. He needs to remind people about that over and over. The MSM won' help him at all. He needs to take the initiative himself.

33 IWuvLGF  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:31:06am

#12

They can shill all they want, American people are wise to the media in numbers large enough to comfortably reelect W.

W. kicked ass with a metal-tipped shoe. In fact, I'm starting to think the first debate was rope-a-dope.

34 Nancy  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:32:03am

16 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C

I caught that too --and he emphasized it --that abortion was a constitutional right and thus anyone who could not afford one was entitled to have it paid for by the government.

Back in the "old" days when I was in school --equality meant --equal opportunity, it did not mean everyone was entitled to have "equal material" benefits.

35 johnCV  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:32:03am

Ed Moran

he also believes that if anything is a constitutional right, than it is the duty of the Federal government to pay for it.

Ughhh. Sorry, I meant to quote this.

I am typing on the kids computer. I think they have moved some keys around - at least the ones that aren't stuck down....

36 rabid fanatic  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:32:34am

Kerry is a babbling idiot who is counting on the public not really caring that they don't understand his reasoning.

37 mksmash  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:32:46am

#10

They forgot one:

Sen. John Kerry

I--367

38 metroman  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:33:19am

Not only did John Kerry fail to mention Israel, but in his response to who he would put on the supreme court, he indirectly said that the person he appointed would have passed the global test. Go ahead and read it yourself if you don't believe this. He even mentioned that you would not be able to ascertain, according to the written decisions of this would be judge, whether it was a man or a woman, republican or democrat, Jew, Christian, or *Muslim*.

I don't think there is a Jew alive whose writings could be confused with a Muslim's writings. Likewise, there are no Muslim scholars whose writings could in any way be attributed to a Jewish author. This is another case where Mr. Kerry has created a mythical future for America. As for Christians, the American founding father's writings are very unique and couldn't possibly be attributed to Muslims and in no way resemble a Muslim's legal mindset.

Mr. Kerry's ideology in this case is full of intellectual BS. And he is talking down to Americans when he promotes the idea that there is this utopian world view that everyone can embrace for the good of all.

39 bombcar  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:35:40am

#16


Someone should ask Kerry if he supports the Government paying for the Second Amendment Rights for poor people.

Guns for All! Guns for Free! Guns for Me!

40 American Infidel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:35:53am
41 Shinken  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:36:22am

23 coldwarrior
28 johnCV

Same thing. Doves and pigeons are interchangeable. Sort of like medals and ribbons. They are both family Columbidae order Columbiformes


m-w.com

Main Entry: dove
Pronunciation: 'd&v
Function: noun
1 : any of numerous pigeons; especially : a small wild pigeon

42 American Infidel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:37:40am
43 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:38:23am

John, I understand.

My daughter is hanging with me at the computer.

It amazes me how kids manage to hit ctrl and/or alt and an another key simultaneously.

44 Nancy  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:39:01am

39 bombcar 10/9/2004 08:35AM PST
#16 ----

Someone should ask Kerry if he supports the Government paying for the Second Amendment Rights for poor people.

Good analogy!

45 kawfytawk  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:43:09am

#30 Mpax

That rubbed me the wrong way too.


on another note

So, now that the Duellfer(sp?) report is out slammin the UN for corruption, where does that leave Kerry's foreign policy? Of course he has no clue...just sticks to calling the Pres a liar and so on. What a sick twisted man.

46 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:45:20am

Just looking at the WaPo poll linked above, showing GWB right after 50%


That is fairly encouraging, because I assume some of the larger states where kerry does lead aren't even close, and while California, for example, has the most electoral votes, the fact that it probably isn't close accounts for the closeness of the polls.

Did that make any sense?


I still think Bush needs close to a 5% margin in the battleground electoral states, because I do believe the Kool-Aid drinking left is so convinced that Bush is Hitler, they feel justified committing election fraud.

47 Martel-Sobieski  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:46:14am

Although I am admittedly a GWB partisan, I tried my best to be an objective observer, looking at the "debate" as an isolated event.

The President comes across as "whiny" and has a wierdly exasperated tone when he's rebutting a point. It's annoying and sounds adolescent.

John Kerry comes across like "Eddie Haskell, Yale Grad" his attempts at "erudition" come across as persiflage and prevarication. His "non-answers" pointing off in all directions like little rhetoric-grenades. Unfortunately, I think as many of them blew up on him as on W.

Going beyond style and rhetoric though, I can't see how any objective observer dosen't score this a huge win for GWB. The President's answers were clear, direct, understandable, consistent and believable. It is obvious that the Prez has the courage of his convictions and is a decisive commander.

Kerry's unresponsiveness and deflective answers made him come across as a political shape-shifting weathervane. Kerry came across as someone who has nothing to add to the debate except criticism and negativity. His "I have a plan" and his policy "proposals" fell completely flat.

The Hammer came when GWB pointed to Kerry's non-record in the Senate, something to the effect of "Well if you supported Tort Reform, why didn't you show up to the Senate and vote for it." That was a knock-down / 8 point round at least.

The most pleasantly surprising thing about the Town Hall Debate was the quality of the questions from the audience. None of the stupidly pointed "lefty press" type digs. Tough, straight-ahead questions that called for straight up answers. This is where the GWB style (or lack thereof) works brilliantly.

Thank You people of Missouri. You have done well by yourselves and done a great service for your country.

The President did deflect one question though, the inevitable, goading "Name three mistakes you made" question. Although he didn't fall for this obvious trap by coughing up red-meat, his acknowledgement that he recognized the question for what it was, and refusal to give the lefties the sound byte they so desperately crave was an outstanding tactical move that saved him from lots of unnecessary damage.

Overall score (10 rounds by the 10 point must system) GWB 100, Kerry 88.

48 Glenmore  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:47:07am

If we give the (Sudetenland) WestBank/Gaza to the (Nazis) Islamofascists, it will remove their grievances against us, they will halt their aggressive expansion, and we will have peace in our time.

Sounds familiar, doesn't it? How well did it work last time? Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

49 remay1  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:54:18am

#46

I still think Bush needs close to a 5% margin in the battleground electoral states, because I do believe the Kool-Aid drinking left is so convinced that Bush is Hitler, they feel justified committing election fraud.

I share that concern. Given previous history, they are certain to stuff ballot boxes just like they have stuffed the on-line polls. These people are shameless and clearly beleive that the end justifies the means.

Bush supporters will need to turn out every single possible voter. It's up to us to not allow people who would vote for the president to stay home because they're "too busy", etc. It's more important this time than ever before.

50 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 6:56:34am

OT

Tropical Storm Matthew was downgraded to a tropical depression as strong southwest shear displaced all the thunderstorms to the east, leaving the surface low exposed as a swirl of humble cumulus clouds.


However, latest IR4 enhanced color satellite imagery suggests thunderstorms are starting to reform near the center, suggesting modest strengthening.

This may hit land tonight as far west as Jefferson Parsih, LA, but with the storms displaced east of the center, the heaviest rain, and best chances for isolated tornadoes, is in Alabama and the Florida Panhandle.

Visible still satellite showing partially exposed LLCC

51 Raposa  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:02:33am

Posting this on the more appropriate thread..

This morning, I was thinking things over, and came up with a question I'd love to sneak in to the last debate if I could..

"Iran has restarted its nuclear program, rebuilding its centrifuges that can create the enriched uranium necessary for nuclear weapons. It has done this in defiance of the United Nations, refusing any further inspections or oversight.

You, Kerry, have said you plan to send nuclear materials to Iran to help them develop their nuclear plants. What is your reasoning for this departure from the wishes of the United Nations, the largest pool of allies and potential allies in the world?"

52 SwampWoman  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:05:32am

Raposa, good question! I'd like the answer to that one, too. And I'd really like to know what he'd do when Iran told him "f*** you, we're getting nuclear bombs and boming your ass".

53 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:07:23am

Ed,

Sorry to OT. A while back we discussed Flt 800 and sparks in fuel tanks. Vapor being the issue vs the fuel. Anyway, you were more specific as to the requirements for ignition. Can you refresh my memory as I don't recall the thread? Thanks.

54 SwampWoman  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:13:26am

Re #52:

I really do know how to spell "bombing". Damn. My typin' really sucks today.

55 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:19:17am
56 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:20:45am
57 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:22:32am
58 bp sf  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:30:10am

" Between the World Trade Center bombing in what was it, 1993 or so, and the next time was five years, seven years. These people wait. "

It was Xmas '68, ya fucking dipshit. Nixon ordered it.

59 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:30:24am

#53 Bob with one O

ou were more specific as to the requirements for ignition. Can you refresh my memory as I don't recall the thread? Thanks.

I didn't see that discussion, but my two cents:

You need three things for a fire: Fuel, a heat source hot enough to ignite the fuel and oxygen. In an airliner fuel tank, the fumes are the fuel, the air admitted to the tank as the fuel was used has the oxygen. A small spark will ignite the fumes.

The US uses a gas (IIRC, Feron TF) instead of air in combat planes but the EPA only lets them do it in combat not training. Tanker ships use the exhaust from their engines to displace the fumes in empty tanks to prevent fires. So far the airlines have refused to do something similar.

60 bp sf  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:33:07am

L3's will rationalize anything, any action, whatever it takes to oust W.

I don't see a decision in November. We'll be into December once again, just like 2000.

61 TMF  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:33:53am

/dramatic, pompous bombastic tone

I HAVE A PLAN

Whats your plan, Senator?

THIS PRESIDENT HAS NO PLAN

But whats your plan, Senator?

THIS PRESIDENT MISLED AND MISCALCULATED......

Whats your plan, Senator?

/crickets

(I think I figured it out- his plan is to do EXACTLY what Bush has done, only faster, and BETTER!)

62 lxj  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:43:20am

The only problem I have with the exploding fuel tank theory is statistical; if this were really an issue, an airliner would be blowing up every other week. The world's fleet of airliners, many of them aging fly many more hours per year than in decades past.

63 Not amazed in NJ  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:44:39am

Did anyone else think that Kerry insulted the audience when he said that he looked at the debate audience and that only he, President Bush and Charlie Gibson would be the only ones impacted by his tax plan to raise taxes on the top 2%.

I hadn't realized that you could determine a individual's income by their appearance. I found this ascertion by Kerry to be a slight to the audience and Americans as a whole.

He did however forget to mention the one audience member whom he knows meets that criteria - His wife.

64 geomca1  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:52:21am

#5 - You are right. Clearing cookies, which take just a few seconds with Netscape 7.2, allows repeated voting on MSNBC's online poll. However MSNBC has declared a number of times today that their poll only allows one vote, as they proudly announce the one million plus votes received. Seems a lot of votes for a cable channel that only draws a couple of hundred thousand viewers at any given time. My opinion is that they are also happy to report the 67%-37% Kerry "lead" in their "poll",

65 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:53:30am

#63 Good point.

mmmhmmm -Kerry's wife, the one who wont release her tax returns.
Gee- I wonder if she swims through tax loopholes?
The same loopholes that her husband campaigns against.

66 andrew2  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 7:57:16am

Phoenix TV in Germany is doing the same right now. The candidates names at the top of the screen are as follows: Kerry's name in black over a white box, Bush's name in white over a RED background.

Plus, the translator is emphasing Bush's punction in a flat and down beat fashion, while generally constantly placing a confident yet bubbly character to the Kerry answers...I was just told by my friend that Kerrys flip flops are OK beacuse "he changed his mind....so what"!

AARRRRGGGGG!!!!!!

I hate to steal a quote from Pirsig-- Thanks "Leo (Dissident view from Berlin)" :

"It took me more than a week to deduce from the evidence around me that everything before my waking up was a dream and everything afterward was reality. There was no basis for distinguishing the two other than the growing pile of new events that seemed to argue against the drunk experience".

67 andrew2  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 8:02:07am

Punction = Punctuation

Bush did a Good job and I like his honesty and frankness.

68 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 8:02:53am

Just seen the latest Rasmussen:

BUSH for the first time at 50 %
Ketchup at 46


WOW

69 Conservativegirl  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 8:09:16am

The following is a copy of a memo on Drudge sent by ABC news political director Mark Halperin. It is disgusting that Mr. Halperin thinks the American people are so stupid that we can't sift through the candidate’s words to the truth, and he is censoring the public through reporting and pushing his own agenda on ABC News. ABC should be held through the same scrutiny as CBS. Shameful!


******

ABCNEWS POLITICAL DIRECTOR MEMO SPARKS CONTROVERSY: BOTH SIDES NOT 'EQUALLY ACCOUNTABLE'

**Exclusive**

An internal memo written by ABCNEWS Political Director Mark Halperin admonishes ABC staff: During coverage of Democrat Kerry and Republican Bush not to "reflexively and artificially hold both sides 'equally' accountable."

The controversial internal memo obtained by DRUDGE, captures Halperin stating how "Kerry distorts, takes out of context, and mistakes all the time, but these are not central to his efforts to win."

But Halperin claims that Bush is hoping to "win the election by destroying Senator Kerry at least partly through distortions."

"The current Bush attacks on Kerry involve distortions and taking things out of context in a way that goes beyond what Kerry has done," Halperin writes.

Halperin's claim that ABCNEWS will not "reflexively and artificially hold both sides 'equally' accountable" set off sparks in St. Louis where media players gathered to cover the second presidential debate.

Halperin states the responsibilities of the ABCNEWS staff have "become quite grave."

In August, Halperin declared online: "This is now John Kerry's contest to lose."

x x x x x

Halperin Memo Dated Friday October 8, 2004

It goes without saying that the stakes are getting very high for the country and the campaigns - and our responsibilities become quite grave

I do not want to set off (sp?) and endless colloquy that none of us have time for today - nor do I want to stifle one. Please respond if you feel you can advance the discussion.

The New York Times (Nagourney/Stevenson) and Howard Fineman on the web both make the same point today: the current Bush attacks on Kerry involve distortions and taking things out of context in a way that goes beyond what Kerry has done.

Kerry distorts, takes out of context, and mistakes all the time, but these are not central to his efforts to win.

We have a responsibility to hold both sides accountable to the public interest, but that doesn't mean we reflexively and artificially hold both sides "equally" accountable when the facts don't warrant that.

I'm sure many of you have this week felt the stepped up Bush efforts to complain about our coverage. This is all part of their efforts to get away with as much as possible with the stepped up, renewed efforts to win the election by destroying Senator Kerry at least partly through distortions.

It's up to Kerry to defend himself, of course. But as one of the few news organizations with the skill and strength to help voters evaluate what the candidates are saying to serve the public interest. Now is the time for all of us to step up and do that right.

70 Jamie  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 8:11:58am

Let's ignore that all the national polls show Bush at best battling Kerry to a draw.

It seems that when we finally have a debate where Kerry doesn't mop the floor with Bush, the tune changes on victory and defeat. This entry by Charles is title "Bush Wins Going Away". After the first debate, Charles said, "Isn’t it a little silly to talk about who 'won' the presidential debate? Let’s face it; there was nothing to win." (Cite)

Why the flip-flop?

71 Jim in Virginia  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 8:25:43am

I turned off the TV about 45 minutes into the debate so I may have missed it, but I didn't hear Kerry say "Vietnam" once last night. He repeated a lot of other stuff but not that. Have their polls shown it hurts more than helps?

72 BPP  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 8:55:16am

Keep dreaming Charles.

73 William  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 9:10:31am
Please note: the questioner specifically mentioned the threat to Israel. But Kerry not only avoided bringing up Israel in his response to this question, he didn’t say the word “Israel” once in the entire debate.

Similarly, after the debate, Chris Wallace interviewed Hillary Clinton.

Here is his question: "How is your husband doing, is he feeling better, perhaps watching the debates?"

Clinton's response: "I think John Kerry did a wonderful job tonight .. yada ... yada ... I'm really excited."

Wallace: "You're going to use that question to spin?"
 

Her answer did not even mention her husband.

I could not believe what I was hearing -- shoving her recovering husband aside to regurgitate some DNC political spin for Kerry.

Repulsive.
 

74 paplagr  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 9:11:20am

For what this is worth.

Did anyone notice the after debate crowd reaction?

It was very, very obvious who won the debate.

Bush was deluged with folks 5-6 deep trying to shake his hand, get an autograph, or a picture. Smiles abounded. The Pres was on his game and everyone knew it

Contrast the crowd around Kerry...there wasn't any!! He looked like a little lost puppy. Even more embarrassing was he moved closer to President Bush trying to get someone, anyone to talk with him. All you saw were the backs of folks trying to reach President Bush. One lady saw Kerry and basically sneered at him and went back to trying to get a moment with the President.

Check it out!!! It was beautiful to see!!!!

75 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 9:14:20am

If Friday/early Saturday is any indication, this is shaping up to be a good weekend. Red Sox win big, John Howard wins big time, Bush takes my absentee senator to the woodshed in the second debate and the Afghans go to the polls.

I was up late enough to check on some of the early returns in the Australian elections- the Labour party (ALP?) was losing ground in Tasmania, but no results from the mainland and I was a little uncertain about the Aussies voting habits (i.e. is there a 'red Australia' and a 'Blue Australia' with the red parts being flyover country?). It was kinda like when Foulke was facing Garret Anderson and then Troy Glaus with the bases loaded late in a tie ballgame...I couldn't stand the suspense!

Nothing left to do but watch some playoff baseball and college football, which almost makes up for the fact that there's no hockey season.

76 Jamie  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 9:15:14am

John Kerry and John Edwards have 100% flawless records on Israel in the Senate. Bush promised the RJC in 1999 that on day one, the American embassy would move from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. He lied. Vice President Cheney twice conferred statehood on the Palestinians during his debate, referring to "Palestine".

77 Aviator  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 9:16:59am

#70 Jamie

Let's ignore that all the national polls show Bush at best battling Kerry to a draw.

Let's ignore the trolls.

Yes, Nana

78 Conservativegirl  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 9:27:32am

No one is surprised by Hillary's love of politics and lack of love for her husband. That's why he has always turned to other women. Her first love is politics.

79 Shinken  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 9:30:30am

74 paplagr

I was laughing my ass off! I saw kerry approaching one guy who I swear, he had a look of revulsion! It was hysterical. I watched on PBS (clearest reception I get). I'd love to see that again. I did see people taking their picture with Kerry though. To say no one was interested in him wouldn't do justice. But the Prez was indeed swarmed like a '82 malibu that caught a hellfire missile up the tail pipe in the west bank.

80 cincysux  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 9:42:17am

Shinken, I agree with the other posters that it's a pigeon getting ready to crap on the [bigoted word]s.

81 paplagr  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 9:44:51am

79 Shrinken

Ok!!! I saw 3 folks around Kerry...I admit it!!

One was his daughter. Not bad looking!!!

One was Tah Ra Zah. Very bad looking!!!

And one guy trying to hand Kerry his camera to take a picture of him. That was different, not sure what that was all about. Maybe the Pres was in the background.

I like your "82" Malibu" comment.

Keep the faith!!!

82 'Nam Grunt  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 10:09:34am

I normally try to be civil when typing curse words on LGF to respect everyone, I normally put a star or something to lessen the impact, however in this case it is warranted........FUCK YOU BPP! I apologize to Charles, but I'm to ecstatic today to care, Go John Howard and GWB, may our job be easy for the next four years.

83 Jamie  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 10:31:49am

#77 Aviator,

So you don't see any inconsistencies in these stances?

84 Ghost  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 11:08:19am
Meanwhile, while Iran is moving toward nuclear weapons, some 37 tons of what they call yellowcake, the stuff they use to make enriched uranium.


Isn't it amazing how 37 tons of uranium makes Iran a threat, but 500+ tons of uranium in Iraq didn't make Iraq a threat?

85 Rage - Goddess,  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 11:18:42am

#30 mpax

I'm not sure what Kerry meant by this:
"And I want to make sure we have judges who interpret the Constitution of the United States according to the law."
In law school we learned that the law was interpreted in light of the Constitution, not vice versa.
A minor, point, maybe, but it irked me.

Actually, I don't think that's a minor point. It seems to me that the supremacy of the constitution is increasingly falling into disfavor among those who disagree with it. The recent case of a Louisiana judge striking down a voter-approved constitutional amendment because it violated state law is an example. I recall seeing a "constitutional scholar" on a debate program a few years ago claiming that he felt the 22nd Amendment (two Presidential terms, the guy wanted Clinton for a third) was unconstitutional and that he knew a large number of constitutional scholars that agreed. I just wanted to know where he went to law school. It's a classic example of the ends (liberal agenda) justifying the means (trampling the Constitution), and we need to be very, very wary of it.

86 swenocha  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 11:47:44am
I own a timber company? That's news to me... (to Charlie) Need some wood?


ROTFL...

87 manofaiki  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 12:17:09pm

Kerry said:

For two years, the president didn’t even engage with North Korea, did nothing at all while it was growing more dangerous.

Now they have the bombs, and we’re less safe. So what do we do? We’ve got to join with the British and the French, with the Germans who have been involved in their initiative.

Geepers, at #18, responded:

So the British, French and Germans though engaged, failed.

Kerry's plan? Join them.

In two sentences, Geepers summed up what I was going to say in a 300 word post. So I threw my post away and quoted him.

As an aside, note how carefully Kerry did not use the words 'Clinton', 'Carter', 'North Korea', or 'Agreed Framework' even once when discussing the growing nuclear threat.

Unfortuntately, NEITHER DID PRESIDENT BUSH.

I was practically screaming at the TV during the debate, "GEORGE, TELL'M ABOUT THE DEAL CLINTON AND JIMMY CARTER WORKED OUT, YOU KNOW, THE ONE WHERE THEY AGREED ALONG WITH JAPAN AND SOUTH KOREA TO PAY A HUGE BRIBE WITH NO VERIFICATION WHATSOEVER!

Kerry managed to create the impresssion, without mentioning Clinton or Carter by name, that the previous Democratic adminstration had things in N. Korea well in hand and then Bush came into office and messed everything up.

Bush TOTALLY dropped the ball on the North Korea question.

Of course Bush didn't do much negotiating with N.Korea the first two years he was in office. Know why?

Because Clinton knew well before he left office that the NORTH KOREAN'S WEREN'T KEEPING THE AGREED FRAMEWORK TREATY. In other words, they took the stuff and laughed their asses off at the rest of the world while they continued their nuclear program.

Clinton KNOWS this. Clinton does nothing about it. Know why? Because that fake 'treaty' was one of the 'biggest accomplishments' of his administration.

Clinton put his PERSONAL AMBITION above the national security of this country.

So he knows the N. Koreans took the bribe and kept building nukes anyway. He does nothing about it. He leaves that ticking time bomb for his successor to deal with.

Obviously Clinton hoped this would be Al Gore, with the game plan being to keep N. Korea quiet and happy by................continuing to bribe them.

Only George Bush wins the election.

Funny thing about Bush: Unlike Clinton and Al Gore, Bush thinks if a country breaks a treaty it made with you, you are not obligated to keep handing over stuff to them.

Bush came into office, looked over the intelligence, saw the N. Koreans were building nukes, and goes: "Then why the hell are WE still building them two hard water reactors and giving them billions in fuel oil?"

And he cut them off. THAT's when the North Koreans revealed to the world publicly that they had never stopped their nuclear program at all. It was still ongoing and they flaunted this to the global community.

So, who got blamed for this? GEORGE BUSH DID.

Apparantly, the Democrats think the nuanced, sophsticated thing to do is go back to the drawing table and come up with a bigger bribe for the next round of talks.

So what we came up with in the Agreed Framework wasn't rich enough for Kim Sung Il? No problem; Kerry would come up with a better deal for them.

What are we supposed to get out of it?

Security. They get billions of dollars worth of taxpayer's money and we get the security of know N. Korea won't put nukes into missles.

Does bribery ensure security?

Can anyone point me to an example where it worked?

Can America really afford to continue trying the failed Clinton/Carter policy of trying to pony up large enough bribes to rogue states so they will behave?

Tune in on Nov. 2nd, and find out.

manofaiki

88 ScaryKerry  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 12:24:39pm

President Bush won the beauty contest but failed to capitalize on an opportunity to win the election. Bush should have NAILED Kerry on his vote against the First Gulf War since we did have a UN resolution authorizing force and we DID build a strong coalition. These are the prime elements of Kerry's so-called global test of legitimacy. So even when we pass the global test, that's not good enough for Kerry. So much for Kerry's Plan for the War on Terror.

89 manofaiki  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 12:30:07pm

OT:

Senator Kerry is still lying repeatedly about having released all of his military records. Looks like he's going to get a big pass on this.


Here's a letter I sent to my local paper:

Is it just me or does anybody else sense a media double-standard in regard to the two Presidential candidates?

Consider this:

One candidate is running on his record for the past 4 years as President. Yet his 30 year old National Guard service became the focal point of the media's attention for almost 3 whole months. In response, the candidate signed Standard Form 180 and released all of his military records. Just recently when the military discovered more documents, including a letter from the candidates' father to his commanding officer, they were immediately released to the press.

Yet this openess cannot seem to satisfy the media. We were just treated to a huge scandal in which CBS was found to be using forged documents. Why forged documents? Because no real documents could be found to support the story CBS wanted to tell.

On the other hand, the other candidate for President has publicly insisted several times, as has his spokespersons, that he has released all of his military records as well. Only the Navy came out and officially said several weeks ago that it has over 90 documents in this candidate's military record that it cannot release because this candidate has not given them permission to do so. You see, he has NOT signed Standard Form 180.

And yet....and yet for some reason the media will not touch THIS story with a ten foot pole.

So: one candidate's 30 year old military history gets searched over with a fine tooth comb and the media are so determined to find negative evidence that they actually use forgeries, while the other candidate has been caught in a bold-faced lie about having released all his records, and the media gives him a pass.

Once again, I have to ask: is it just me or does anybody else see a double-standard at work here?

manofaiki

90 traveler  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 1:48:56pm

#76 Jamie

We'll ignore Kerry's idiotic senseless babbling, too.....

Yes, Nana....

91 traveler  Sat, Oct 9, 2004 2:37:39pm

#62 lxj


The exploding fuel tank theory, according to the book below, was a smokescreen by Clinton to cover up the fact that Flight 800 was a missle attack. Very compelling book written by emmy award winning journalists --- Clinton tried to stop them until they sued the Justice Department -- and WON.

[Link: shop.wnd.com...]

92 traveler  Mon, Oct 11, 2004 9:16:10am

[Link: www.wnd.com...]

History Channel picks up new theory.....

93 DannyK  Mon, Oct 11, 2004 10:18:24am

The questioner was an American? could have fooled many, because she wanted to know what the US' responsibilites were to a FOREIGN nation first.

Iran is seeking nukes because Israel has them, in violation of "non-proliferation", and they see what the US/Israel axis of goodness does to those who don't have them. War. Kill. Bombs. Innocent people die.

Kerry was right, that the US developing newer nuke weapons, while calling for non-proliferation, is two-faced and bad policy.

Non-prolieferation is a good idea!!! But as long as the USA allows Israel to have them, then the US citizen will have to deal with the consequences of Proliferation.....which might even be that the US soldier fights an Iranian war!!!


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