John Kerry having discrepancies with his past, specifically Vietnam? no way!!

/faux shocked reaction

Bush fair game for CBS (with bogus docs)? This is fair game too. We need full disclosure of Kerry service records, all of them, to the same extent Bush has. File the form, Senator.

PLEEEAAASE Let this break! Please let this draw some smoke!! For Pete's sake! We can make investigate amissed physical!! Can someone ask Kerry about this!!

Whuoah. This is political dynamite.

It's extremely unfortunate that no reputable news organization will look into this because this is important. Swiftvets?

You know, Kerry could stop all this if he would just release ALL of his Military and Medical documents, like he has been asked to do on numerous occasions.

He either has some extremely large and ungainly skeletons tucked away in the darkest depths of his closet, or he obtains a weird kind of sexual masochistic thrill every time he sees his name in the papers.

Either way, he'd make a poor Commander in Chief.

Is that the information Comrade Ketchup doesn't want released, that he got a dishonorable discharge? Or is there worse waiting?

That's a rhetorical question, right Charles?

There may be absolutely nothing to this story... but Kerry allows the fans to be flamed by refusing to release his records.

Of course, Bush releasing his records seemed to only stoke the fire even more since no smoking gun was found. Might as well make up the incriminating stuff! Shoot, I'll take whatever is released at face value...WHEN it's released.

There is an old saying that "those in glass houses should not know stones"...

Maybe the media will see Kerry's house as it truely is...glass with a pretty painting on the outside that looks like brick...

Something like this could just destroy his credibility...as if he really had any to begin with...

But you know the MSM wont touch it...

He is such a fake!

Surprise!!!

10-13-04

Just another in the long list of "unusual" circumstances that surround this man that we aren't supposed to trouble our pretty little heads about...

Their assumption of simplistic duplicity and ignorance on the part of the "unwashed masses" is infuriating.

Come on November 2!

We should write to all the media reporting these news and asking them to investigate/ why they don't/ why they didn't and bombing them with questions until this can of warms explodes.

If he doesn't release all his military/medical docs there must be a reason.

And this latest find could be the reason.

:tongue-in-cheek on

Discrepencies in Kerry's military records that he refuses to disclose? I'm shocked, just SHOCKED!

:tongue-in-cheek off

And so it begins. Release the hounds!

Why am I not surprised that it has the smell of Jimma Carter all over it.

I am willing to bet, all the money that is currently being dangled in front of me by little Dan Rathers, that this is on 60 Minutes this very week. Brokaw will rush to beat them...

Shortly thereafter, Michael Moore will apologize for some troubling inconsistencies that have been pointed out in a few of his works. Recalls of all films until rectified.

Sorry, my prescriptions have run out, and I tend to drift a bit...

And this latest find could be the reason.

Or there is something even larger and potentially more damaging in there that Kerry feels he has to let this float out there unchallanged. Hmmm...

"Senator Kerry, when will you sign your Form 180 and allow full disclosure of your records"?

"Uhhh...Charles, I have a plan, and Bush did'nt win the peace".

JFK

/Kerrybot mode

#7 Mr Pol
"Comrade Ketchup." You know, I actually haven't heard that one before. That's pretty good, heh heh.

The news media will bother jumping on this when hell freezes over and the sea gives up her dead.

But I like the point the article makes about how weird it is that Nixon pressed for an investigation on this guy, but Kerry hasn't said word one about it.
You would think the guy who can come up with the wonderful childrens' story, "Captain Condiment's Christmas Caper in Cambodia," would grab at the chance to use something as notorious and physical as the Nixon Tapes to give him bona fides with his base. "Lookit him! He was persecuted by the eeevil Nixon and therefore must be a great guy!"
Kerry's silence on that, in and of itself, speaks volumes to me.

OT: Pakistanis die hitting anti-tank mine with hammer

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Two Pakistani villagers were killed in an explosion after they tried to break open an anti-tank mine with a hammer to use the casing for a stove to fry snacks, police say.

Villager Muhammad Latif found the mine in a village near the town of Sialkot, near Pakistan's heavily fortified border with rival India, and brought it home, Mirza Zafar, a senior police officer in Sialkot, told Reuters on Wednesday.

Latif wanted to use the casing to make a stove to cook pakora, a type of fried snack popular during the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan that starts this weekend, he said.

The mine exploded when Latif tried to smash it open with a hammer, killing him and another man and wounding a three-year-old child, another police officer said.

But it happened before today so it does not matter.

JOHN KERRY IS A SOCIALIST!!!

Power is his objective not matter what.

Fritz's Thoughts

Like the rest of Kerry's military record this is just more of the same deceit and dishonesty.

Like his magic CIA hat.
His flying dog VC.
Christmas in Cambodia.
Bodies floating in ports of call.
Listening to B-52's zoom over head.
His silver star with "V" designation.
His communist assault rifle.

John Forbes Kerry reporting for duty.

Gee, that's odd, I haven't heard a thing about this in the MSM. Speaking of the Lamestream, check out Zell Miller's piece today:

"What if today's reporters had covered the Marines landing on Iwo Jima, a small island in the far away Pacific Ocean, in the same way they're covering the war in Iraq? Here's how it might have looked..."

Polipundit contributor Joel seems to think this isn't a big deal

The bottom line, according to Joel, is that, if Kerry had gotten a less-than-honorable discharge, he would have paid for it in the ’70s due to his character and fitness examination to be admitted to the Mass. bar. Of course, that discounts the possibility that the bar exam only did a cursory examination of the records or got a satisfactory explanation from Kerry on his incomplete records. Not every candidate gets tremendous scrutiny on their records by the board of bar examiners, and some can get thru with less than shining records.

I think we are going to get two for one. John and Jimmy. What a pair to draw to.

Can you say October SURPRISE?

"Picture of Dorian Gray" ...JeffK's bio...this guy has got
the Ugly Picture in his closet...Gotta be there...this evil thing...

This does look mighty fishy. I asked my authority on all things Navy (a/k/a my husband) about it, and he shared it with a fellow veteran. Their consensus is that JF'nK's activities while in the Reserves as a "hippie freak" were probably criminal. He adds:

X, I should point out, mostly thinks all of Kerry's acts were criminal during that time and wants Jane Fonda to be shot on pay-per-view.

#31 doppelganglander

X, I should point out, mostly thinks all of Kerry's acts were criminal during that time and wants Jane Fonda to be shot on pay-per-view.

I wouldn't pay for that - but I'd be happy to sell tickets.

if in fact he recieved a dishonorable discharge or other than honorable...and it was subsequently reversed by a board of inquiry...or fell under the general amnesty signed into law by carter...even IF all of that proves to be true...I don't see it making a difference...if the polls are correct (which is debatable)

how as many of my fellow americans can view either kerry or edwards as acceptable choices leaves me udderly speechless...

it is truly world turned upside down...where wrong is right...character is lack of character...weakness is strength...and terrorism is a nusance which needs to be nuianced...

/remaining utterly stuned

#21 andrew2

You forgot to add something to Kerry's response...

"..and I'll release my records better than he did..."

Does Bill Burkett or, say, a crack addicted homeless guy in Toledo or any other such credible sources have any documents we can use to push this story with the MSM?

I HAVE A PLAN TO RELEASE MY FULL MILITARY RECORDS---

AFTER I WIN REELECTION IN 2008

Kerry will fight to see that these records are not opened for at least another 100 years, when it will no longer matter.

I wonder, if this stuff was to be revealed after the voting is over and he won, could he be impeached? That wouldn't be good either, cause then the ambulance chaser would be 'king'.
Did anyone see the wild promises Edwards made yesterday? He and kerry will heal the sick, lame and raise the dead if elected.

It is rather courious to me that he has never signed the form releasing all his records in spite of him saying that all his records are on his website. How come you get a honorable discharge so late after you have left the military? Make you think that he was waiting for someone who would give him an honorable discharge without checking the records. It could be that when he met with the Viet Cong in France that became an issue due to the fact that he was still an officer at the time. Mighty courious to me. And, the papers that were signed (or not) by Lehman who says he never signed the papers for the silver star. There are too many unanswered questions when it comes to Kerry. Too many...

John Kerry: "I have a plan to release my records."

The Feb. 18th document refers to Kerrys discharge from the Reserves, not his discharge from active service. The discharge from active service was in 66(based on the records Kerry has released on [Link: www.johnkerry.com)...] So is it possible he was discharged honorably from active service, and then not so honorably from the Reserves??? Can you be discharged from one and not the other, or do you just move to inactive duty? The time in the Reserves would be when he was testifying, and when he met with the Vietnamese in Paris. Maybe thats why a committee had to decide how to discharge him? I wish I knew more about military procedure so I could answer those questions. If it is true that he was not honorably discharged, I think the Bush campaign would have known that all ready. Suppose they were saving it for the end of the campaign, or that maybe there is just no story here at all? That release of records would sure come in handy for these types of disputes.

#32 Mr. Pol: I'm holding out for Osamapalooza, when OBL is executed on PPV. That's a guaranteed money-maker.

I hope Kerry lets all his records out. Who thinks he will? Does anyone?

TMF, Damn you! ;-)

Looks like the Dems at CNN have a little October surprise of their own, except O'Relly isn't going to be akin to it!

Front page of drudge, and except of link here:

Plaintiffs FOX NEWS NETWORK, L.L.C. (“Fox”) and WILLIAM O’REILLY, by their attorneys, Epstein Becker & Green, P.C., as and for their Complaint against ANDREA MACKRIS, BENEDICT P. MORELLI and BENEDICT P. MORELLI & ASSOCIATES P.C. (“the Morelli Firm”), allege as follows:

NATURE OF THE ACTION

This action responds to Defendants’ extortion scheme. Defendants seek to extort Sixty Million Dollars ($60 million) from Plaintiffs in return for not going public with a scandalous and scurrilous claim based on alleged inappropriate comments made to Mackris by O’Reilly. Defendants’ outrageous demand cannot be justified by any alleged harm that Mackris claims to have suffered. Rather, Defendants’ demand is based on their threat to sully the reputations of a successful cable news network and a nationally renowned television and radio host, columnist and author. Their demand is blackmail, pure and simple.

Bukko (#42),

I think the odds that Kerry will release his records are about the same as him apologizing to his "band of brothers" for calling the rapists, murderers and war criminals.

So if assumptions turn out to be correct, we could end up with a president who was either dishonorably discharged, or was given amnesty by Carter. Now that is something for this country to be so very proud of!
The EU will all dance with delight at this shame, and the muslims will make for much hay.

This story will dissapear just like the documents in Sandy Bergers shorts. The MSM won't touch it. The MSM is an impossible monster to fight. I hope Sinclair pulls the documentary off, but I am not hopeful. Their are alot of judges and clever lawyers and on Kerry's side.

I'm not a Kerry fan but there are a couple of problems with this report:

But Mr. Kerry’s military commitment began with his six-year enlistment contract with the Navy on February 18, 1966.

Kerry was a commissioned officer which means that he did not enlist.

It describes Mr. Kerry’s discharge as being subsequent to the review of “a board of officers.”

Commissioned officers resign their commission, and therefore I believe they are not discharged.

Is there anyone here who has served as an officer in the US Armed Forces (I did not) who can clear this up for us?

Anybody here familiar with the Special Discharge Review Program initiated in 1977 under Jiminy Carter ? The program was created because Carter pardoned all the draft dodgers in order to please everyone. Then he had to deal with those that said "Hey, wait a minute, what about the people who entered the military and then decided to bug out?" So, Carter issued a directive instructing the military to conduct a special review of less than honorable discharges. And, yes, the program could account for a 1978 discharge date. (But what about all those who served honorably? Congress denied VA benefits to many of those that had upgraded discharges via the SDRP.)

Already done the homework

The SDRP proceedings should result in the publication of a Decisional Document that is publicly accessible here:

Armed Forces Reading Room
1941 Jefferson-David Highway
Crystal Mall #4, Second Floor
Arlington, VA 22202-4508

The DD does not contain the name of the individual, but it should include information regarding date of enlistment, rank, medals, etc.

The records are on microfiche with a primary index using the Docket Number - which you would not know. There are secondary indexes on other microfiches that would, hopefully, make it possible to narrow down the choice of records. You should be prepared with as much 'known' information as possible. The contact person is Ms. Wanda Cooper.

But it's the seriousness of the charges that is important, not whether there is anything in them. Oh, silly me, that's only for Republicans.

Come on Senator. Release your records. Inquiring minds want to know.

#26 Victor

Thanks for posting the Zell Miller piece. That really puts Iraq in perspective.

This cartoon says it all

Midway down is the cartoon HILAREOUS!!

[Link: boortz.com...]

A disgrace to all of us who served honorably.

Question: If you had the chance to elect the Principal of your kid's school. All the teachers wanted Candidate X, would you vote for anyone else?

I served under Clinton. What a morale buster that was. It was a breath of sunshine when W took office. I can't imagine what a blow to our military a Kerry Admin would do.

I was under the impression that Kerry did enlist in the Navy Reserves before being activated and sent to VietNam. Both he and Bush joined the reserves - Kerry's unit in the naval reserves was activated and Bush's in the air national guard was not.

Maybe the military readers will weigh in but I thought that commissioned officers had to serve 6 years of active duty.

#46 applesweet

Oh, yeah, and Canada will build him a MONUMENT!!

#53

I may a little slow here, but I just thought of something. NONE of the active military over seas are being POLLED!!! WOW! What a comforting thought with less than 3 weeks to go.

this information has been around since february and it has taken this long to get any traction. there are a lot of inconsistencies in Kerry's record which is why I have always been stunned that he is even mentioning vietnam.

from all that I have read (start at judicial watch) Kerry was under investigation by the FBI in the early 70s and, in part, at the behest of Nixon. I believe they actually found 'the dirt' with the meetings in paris and the winter soldier fiasco. it is my assertion that he got in trouble with the military and was investigated by the military as a result. though not prosecuted for anything he probably received some type of USMJ action and was discharged as OTH.

Believe, I am not one of these conspiracy nuts and all that, nor do i think Kerry's actions were 'treasonable' per se (though, I know many consider what he did treasonable, i just mean in comparison to Bennedict Arnold) but enough so to receive an OTH from the Navy.

When Carter gave the emnesty, he took advantage of it and has been fiddling with his records for a decade afteward to get them fixed.

If it were a clean record, he would not have had to fiddle.

will it effect the election - i think in a major way in that it could swing 1-2% of the voters against Kerry - and that is a lot in this election.

call radio shows
call Limbaugh
Call Mike reagan

whenever you call in to a radio show (if you do) ask about it.

The MSM will not touch it until it gets out somewhere and they are left with no choice but to touch it.

punk boy

#40 Ginger: At the end of active service, each person is placed on "inactive duty." Therefore you are not discharged, only separated. At the end of your inactive duty, you are discharged. Or at least so goes my memory of my discharge. Two years after I was seperated, I was finally given my discharge papers along with any updated DD214 (in case I had actually served any reserve time).

Yes, I received an Honorable Discharge, and still have all the paperwork I was given.

The Navy Department does keep a more detailed file with fittness records, court martials, etc.

The Navy Department has stated that it does have an additional 100 pages of Kerry records. Now what seems odd is what could possibly be in his past that would ammount to an additional 100 pages - that's a lot of records.

God I hope CBS or any MSM just mentions this.

Kerry: sign the damn 180!

I cannot speak for the policies in place during the 60s/70s, but...in regards to the AF

The amount of commitment an officer owes varies. I know that a cadet graduating through an AFROTC program with a non-rated assignment had a 4yr active and 8yr total amount due. The 8yrs could overlap your active duty time...so if you served 5yrs active duty, you would owe an additional 3yrs reserve (inactive).

But...say you had a rated slot (pilot, nav, etc), I think the minimum active time went up to 6yrs. This was due to the additional schooling and investment the govt "gave" you.

Also, to my knowledge, all members of the military are discharged and do receive a DD214. That form is basically the record that proves you served in the military for various VA benefits.

Please, if I have glossed over something or misplaced a fact, just let me know. This is simply off the top of my head how I remember things.

One thing we all know... we cant take Kerrys word about his records. All he does is lie.

send/fax this:

[Link: www.archives.gov...]

here:

Kerry-Edwards 2004
P.O. Box 34640
Washington, DC 20043
202-712-3001 (fax)

OR

any of the state HQs listed here:

[Link: www.johnkerry.com...]

The article mentions that Nixon and Colson were eager to get dirt on Kerry. The Dems will claim that if Kerry did indeed get a less-than-honorable discharge, that it was the result of smears and dirty tricks by the Nixon Administration.

BTW, the same friend that I mentioned on the previous thread, claims that the Bush administration is composed primarily of "Nixon retreads".

I know that Rumsfeld served in the Ford administration, but were any of Bush's inner circle in the Nixon administration?

Call me naive, but---
Dan Rather could really redeem himself by covering the doubts about the Kerry discharge in the same earnest way he investigated the Bush memos (or maybe even with a little more care).
He could restore himself to his pre-September stature, such as it was.

When I enlisted in USMC it was for a six year tour, four of which was active duty and two inactive reserve. When I was discharged from active duty I did not get a discharge certificate. I got that after my entire six year tour was completed (Honorable, I might add). I was a Sgt, not an officer so I am not familiar with how that works. The point is, I only got one discharge, not two.
Also,
As I understand it, all officers in the Navy are technically United States Naval Reserve (USNR) until they reach a certain point where they become permanent (which is usually after 2 or 3 years of active duty service). At least this is the way it was explained by a USMC Captain.

I think what we have here is simple...

Senator gets preferential treatment!

I am a military veteran and when I resigned my commision, I received an Honorable Discharge. The end. No Officer Board, no cover letter, no review of files, etc. etc.

There is not an inkling of doubt in my mind that there is very bad stuff in Kerry's file that he does not want out.

That is why he used his influence as a Senator to get his records altered and "corrected" - something that many congressmen have done over the years - but in his case it was to cover up issues.

I do not believe for a minute - or a nanosecond - that he will release those records unless there is substantial pressure.

It would be an incredible comeback for George Bush tonight to say - "I signed form 180, why haven't you? Is there something you don't want the public to know?"

My estimate is that there were probably allegations of treason, conspiracy, etc. that were investigated and that those are shwn in the records, not as Kerry says "some old medical stuff..." If it were old medical stuff, could it involve STD's? Lapses of insanity? Lack of self control? Poor judgment?

Okay I'll stop...

I have been harping on this for a year now. The MSM do not want to hear this. Limbaugh, Hannity anf Ingram do not understand the issue. It is simple. Kerry must have received a less than honorable discharge. That must be for a specific incedent. It must be written up, with details, with the right of appeal. If the discharge is a general discharge, then one suspects a bargain. Something is very fishy here and EVERY ranking officer in the Navy knows the truth because these records are available in more than one place and stuff like this is the subject of common gossip.

#67 Pat

You are right on target. What we need is a reference from an "informed source" who was on one of those boards or who unfortunately kept some notes...

This can't be that hard to figure out for those of us who've been officers in the military. Just getting the info out should help, and maybe this is FINALLY getting some traction.

He's a "war hero" who won't release his military records.

He violated the UCMJ with his aiding and abetting the enemy after leaving Vietnam, but doesn't want anyone to talk about that period of his life.

He served in the U.S. Senate for 20 years but all he will say is "I have been in the Senate for 20 years," without stating one single contribution he made towards the welfare of this great nation.

He has a "plan" for everything but no one seems to know what it is.

He is inconsistent on every major issue facing America today, but he is the best the democrats can do for the 2004 Presidential election.

What is this country coming to?

#64

When hell freezes over.

Sarge...

We've come to 'Man-tan' instead of real tans, spandex shorts on a 60 year old, mass healing of invalids on inauguration day and on air threats against broadcasters who dare to post an opposing view... and no more prosecution of such nuisances as prostitution, terrorism and whatever...

Oh, and higher taxes...

Maybe apples to oranges, but when I joined the Navy for nuclear power training, my contract was for six years active duty starting as an E-3 (Seaman). However, under the Delayed Entry Program, I enlisted in the inactive Naval Reserves in July 1982 as an E-1 without pay, and went active duty as an E-3 and was sent to Recruit Training.

It may have been similar for Kerry, he was enlisted in the inactive reserves and than received his commission when he went active duty, although if my limited experience of Naval Officer training (I saw the Richard Gear/Louis Gossett movie), he may not have been commissioned until the completion of OCS.

My take over on BeldarBlog on the Lipscomb article, which includes quotes from and links to the relevant statutes (which are otherwise kind of hard to locate because they were superseded in a 1994 reorganization of Title 10 of the U.S. Code).

You have to question, why they picked this guy.

In the interest of full disclosure, I must say that. I have the same kind of paper work for my discharge as Kerry because I was a F#$% Up while I was in the service. Then again I have not been a Senator for 20 years and I am not running for President. I really don't think I could or should run for any national office because of that. The questions I have are why has the state of Massachusetts elected one guy who, while he was married killed his girlfriend in a drunken car accident and then swam away, and another guy who turned on his fellow service men after he got out of the service in an armed conflict and then disavowed his own service afterwards while it was convenient.

Now John Kerry wants to be the Commander and Chief.

Considering he has home movies of himself while in Vietnam, a rarity I must say for any combat veteran of that era. I think it should be no surprise that he is running for president. They made a Hollywood production out of all the footage he has of him to show at democratic functions and fundraisers. I would guess they called that a documentary

The link to the leagalese his .discharge , and about Title 10, U.S. code Section 1126 and 1163

If and when John F'ing Kerry appears on the O'Reilly Factor I've love to have Bill O ask Kerry about this. But that's not going to happen... because with O'Reilly's success he's now become part of the "elite media pinhead" population he always rants on. Sad. Very sad.

BTW, this is my 1st post on LGF. Found out about the site a couple of weeks ago and love it :-)

Senator Kerry, when will you sign your Form 180 and allow full disclosure of your records?

No way in hell.

This waste of skin oxygen thief is hiding a LOT.

#31 doppelganglander:

X, I should point out, mostly thinks all of Kerry's acts were criminal during that time and wants Jane Fonda to be shot on pay-per-view.

Works for me! :-p

Send emails to fox. The truth needs to be reported.

Senator Kerry, YOU can run, but YOU can't hide!!!

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I have been saying since my first post on LGF over 5 months ago, that hanoi john the traitor doctored his records when he came back from his abbreviated tour in 'Nam. He is to this day and has always been a lying coward and a POS and SOB.

There may well be nothing to investigate if my own 30+ year memories are accurate.

During the Vietnam era, commissioning of officers (reserve or regular) essentially entailed a 20-year service contract which contained a series of minimum requirements with terms for early termination according to the needs of the service and the desires of the individual. Kerry graduated from the Navy's Officer Candidate School (OCS) which probably carried a minimum commitment of 4-years active duty plus a stint in the ready reserve (regular monthly drills with an assigned unit plus some extended duty in the summer) that completed the 6(or was it 8?)-year obligation owed by all physically fit males of the period.

Kerry would have had 2+ years of ready reserve duty remaining when he left the active Navy. Once that obligation is complete, reservists were transferred to the inactive pool, subject to individual recall (what the Democrats are calling "the back-door draft"). I held my commission until I resigned it some years later, in response to a letter from USAFR asking me to attach myself to a unit and rejoin the ready reserve or resign my commission.

There was a glut of post-Vietnam officers "on-the-books" but useless to the service. Failing a resignation or a resumption of reserve training, the service would have undertaken administrative procedures to terminate the commission (under honorable conditions). Kerry likely followed a similar path.

Of more significance, Kerry would (should) have been on ready reserve status (and a commissioned officer) at the time of his Senate testimony and his visits with the Vietnamese Communist's negotiators in Paris - the latter a very real violation of the UCMJ.

When revealed, Kerrys military records will speak for him. They will not speak well of him.

Tom in Seattle,

Welcome aboard.

Here, have a beer. :-)

Contrary to what I've read here, and as A DS vet who went inactive after coming home, a soldier/sailor gets a DD214 ANYTIME they come off active status, officer or not. It shows duration of service and separation to reserve component, along with awards, etc. It is possible that JFnK got an horable from active duty, then got an other than honorable for his reserve duty(from the looks of the time frame, he may have gotten the boot for not fulfilling his reserve obligation, but that's just speculation)

I guess w'ell never know...no form 180...

For those wondering...I entered the Naval Reserves in 8/72 to begin my time in NROTC on a full four year scholarship. I was commissioned in 5/76 and retired in 7/96.

The game rules for service as an officer were pretty unchanged from the late 60's to the best of my understanding.

I had a 4 year commitment upon commissioing. I was discharged from the reserves and placed on active dutyin 76. The USNA graduates had a 5 year commitment. Since I was just a plain old "skimmer," (ship driver), I know the aviators had extra commitments, and I think the submariners dd, but I'm not sure what it was. In any case, I was in the same professional category as (aaauuuggghhh! This is gonna leave mental scars!) as jfKerry, as a Surface Warfare Officer. Anyone entering the service through ROTC scholarships l had a 4 year commitment, unless you came in as a reservist on active duty (the 2 year scholarship people did this) or via Officer Candidate School (OCS), and you had two years of active duty required, with I recall an additional 4 years in the reserves. You also were listed as USNR, and had to ask to be "augmented" into the active duty ranks. Your duties, while on active duty were no different. The acromyn was actually "Reseve on Active Duty," but we also used this "title" for those not pulling their weight, regardless of their AD or reserve status (as in "on the ROAD). Sorry, I digress to some inside humor...

Additional special traiing would up the ante, for instance, going to post graduate school or flight school. jfK didn't. Sometimes "plum" assigmnets, meaning the oppoturnity of non practicing, but actually doing what you had been trained to do, sometimes came with a additional time commitment as well. as a side note, even if you didn't make it out of the special training by graduating, the extra time was still tacked onto your service commitment.

As one commenter noted above, he was not completely discharged when he left the service. For officers, unless you choose to enter the reserves (and then this policy varies due to the needs of the service/reserves over time), you are just discharged, unless you are flag (admiral) rank, in which case, you're subject to recall forever, and the smae goes with genral officers. For enlisted, you may be placed in the "inactive reserves" for up to a total of 30 years service time, which was being done when I retired. You most likely won't get called up, but if a real WWIII erupted, you'd be getting a personal letter inviting your attendance.

Any clarification for those who wonder?

As far as "going back" to get things changed, there is a formal "Board of Corrections" that in place for people to petition for changes to their service records. You can use that vehicle forever to make sure your record accurately reflects your time in.

That sounds like what young jfK did. Most likely, the really not-so-neocons in the military took a real exception with his self proclaimed savior status and his fitness reports did reflect their observations. "FITREPS" are (were) done every 6 months on Ensigns and Ltjgs, then it shifts to an annual review when you make O-3 (LT). The approach to the Board of Corrections may have been to have those reports replaced with basically blank reports, showing only the dates of time covered. That is a practice when someone has a problem with a bad report. You still have to have documentation of the period covered, but it can have an entry that the eveluation of performance has been removed from the record by some type of formal board.

80 Howard

exactly right..I was keyboarding and couldn't read your thread...but the total of the contract had to be fulfilled. In other words, a 20 year contract could've been 1 year active & 19 inactive, or 2 active & 18 inactive, etc. But then it would depend on what type of contract the traitor signed. As you know, there were miriads of contract options available at the time...

#83 Hi pax,

Yes but we know don't we buddy, just what this POS and SOB will say to further his aims, well it's not going to be pretty for him on Nov. 3. hanoi john the traitor and his little ambulance chasing preacher that will heal the cripples of the world, will end up just like they started LOSERS!

#48 Hulegu Khan

Bush was also an officer and he's got an Honorable Discharge.

Curt (#84),

Thanks for the info.

And thanks for your service.

I'm a commissioned Navy officer preparing for discharge now.

Concur with Howard and most others...a few things that haven't been hit:

*Length of Active Duty (AD) obligations differ, but in general it's 4yrs of AD and 4 years of Inactive Reserve time (your name is on a list in LA), or some other mix so it works out to 8 years total.

*If he got the OCS commission, it was likely Regular Navy (USN) vice a Reserve commission immediately (USNR). I believe USNR only commissions started in 1996, before that everyone was commissioned USN. This is important only from a manpower mgmt. perspective...USNR's can apply for "augmentation" to USN after 5 yrs probationary service. Prior to that, the Navy can "lay off" USNR's on AD as they need to.

*He should have gotten a DD214 (military discharge) when he left Active Duty. I believe I get one as soon as I leave AD, not when my 8yrs are up. You've gotta have one for VA benefits, and job applications. That discharge (Kerry's) would almost certainly have been "Honorable".

*The two lowest discharges, Bad Conduct and Dishonorable, are the equivalent of federal felony convictions. I believe it requires a court martial to award them, but don't quote me on that.

Due to his actions protesting the war, there may have been some administrative action to terminate his Reserve commission, which is probably the missing files. I'd like to see the story break, but I don't think it'll go anywhere. If it does, the Dems will blame all the bad Navy paperwork on the evil gov't during Vietnam.

howdy Nam

I just KNEW when you saw this thread your BP shot up 20 points and I'd see an entry. My theory is that he was one of the golden children "pardoned" by the Carter Administration. It just goes to show that the Dems insidious plans are always long term. It's just like the recent public school indoctrinations. Hell, my 15 year old daughter came home in a tizzy yesterday because someone is trying to have the MM smut film shown at her school...AND WE LIVE IN ALABAMA!! this is crazy!!
If we don't wake up and fight, in 5 years there is going to be a sH&tload of brainwashed sheeple out there...voting!!!

Senator, what are you hiding? Sign the Form 180 or I'll vote for Bush.

Just kidding, I was going for GWB anyway.

#90 pax,

Yeah there is an irate dad in Beaumont ,Texas about 15 miles up I-10 from me, whose son came home telling him that his teacher made them sit and watch it and the dad is beside himself.

Hey Curt BIG BLACK SHOE greeting !!!

Another observation, if the American people find out he was pardoned for conduct detrimental to the service and his country, how many votes would he get then? F***ing traitor and POS.

If the President authorizes release of the info, he's abusing the power of the Presidency and (I hate to say it but it's truthful, he would be open for impeachment - I don't have a double standard). If he does nothing, the truth is never known.

Dubya is caught in a catch-22, unless there's a Daniel Ellsworth (did I recall the Pentagon Papers guy's name right) who is willing to risk his pension on being a whistle blower.

Nam Grunt
There's quite a discussion going on over at the Swift Vets site;
[Link: www2.swiftvets.com...]
That'll take you to the last page of comments. A real interesting comment (from RDTF at 2004 5:27 pm).
Numerous North Vietnamese and Viet Cong intelligence agents and officials were in Paris, having arrived a year earlier for the “Peace Talks.” While in Paris, Kerry met with agents on a number of occasions and had extensive discussions with them about U.S. plans, procedures and how to get the U.S. to essentially surrender in Vietnam.

These clandestine meetings were never reported to the Navy.

Almost a year later, in April 1091, speaking as the leader of the Vietnam Veterans Against The War, Lieutenant Kerry told a Senate hearing about his meetings with enemy agents. Senior DOD officials wanted to prosecute him as a Naval Reserve officer for violating a number of laws and regulations, but this was vetoed by the Nixon White House. They didn’t want to give the anti-war crowd any additional PR ammunition.

However, the Navy immediately pulled Kerry’s security clearance. He became a Naval Reserve officer who was known not to be trusted. He kept his commission, but lost all access to any classified information. In the words of one of the now-retired agents, “Lieutenant Kerry wasn’t cleared to know what time it was!”

The bottom line is, Kerry was on the Intelligence Committee of the Senate after the Paris fiasco and another trip to support the Moscow-backed Sandinistas in Nicaragua."

#82 Thanks Geepers!

Smack! Hmmm, that beer hit the spot, even though it's a bit early in the day to be drinkin' here in The People's Republic of Seattle :-)

If I had recorded the two tours I spent in 'nam, it would have made "Apocalyse Now", look like a boy scout jamboree, no brag just fact, I could have been a gazillionaire, but I and the Brave Men I served with are just content that we served our Country Honorably and we actually completed our tours, unlike honoi john the traitor. G*d Bless GWB and America.

#94 'Nam Grunt:

if the American people find out he was pardoned for conduct detrimental to the service and his country, how many votes would he get then? F***ing traitor and POS.

Unfortunately, a lot. The Left are Tranzi idiots.

Thanks for your honorable service.

96 WTF?? How is that possible?? I thought a thorough security check had to be done on members of the Senate Intelligence committee!!??? Hell, they made Big Mouth Leahy resign from the committee just because he leaked some lil crap!! Then how did he get on the commitee???

100 paxnhymn
Here's a link to the full article on Free Republic.
[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

How could Kerry think he'd get by with a record of lies? We gotta keep bugging Fox News. Kerry needs to sign the 180. He won't. Sign the 180 John. And get your prettyboy puppy to heal somebody. John's the lowest.

Remember when Terry McAuliffe called Bush "AWOL?"

Hmmm...

#99 Barbara,

Thankyou, however it would be appreciated if you would say a prayer for our Brave Men fighting in Iraq, and another for the Brave Military Veterans that have died in past wars defending this wonderful Country, they are the REAL HEROS! not us that came back home.

fyi

Pensacola, Northern Gulf LGF Lizards...

WEAR TV3 Pensacola airs STOLEN HONOR Sunday, Oct.24th, 6pm cst, uniterrupted...

YESSS!

I am betting the involuntary seperation came from being passed over for 0-4.

Officers do not get seperated after their six year commitment. They stay on the rolls until they either retire or get passed over for promotion. Kerry most likely did not complete a service school and never bothered to resign. Thus passed over.

QM

106 Quilly

I doubt he would need his discharge reviewed by order of the President if he was involuntarily separated for not being advanced. He would have been given an Honorable Discharge, I'd think.

...and Senator Kerry avows that his honorable discharge is "seared, seared in my memory."

;)

# 11 A I

IIRC, Murdoch owns both papers
{cue scary music}

#107: Ed Moran

You don't understand. Promotion Boards are called by the Secretary at the direction of the President. In the documents Lipscomb cites there is a reference that an officer must be discharged by a Board of Officers.

If you are passed over for promotion that Board of Officers usually* reccomends that you be discharged.

The other problem with Lipscomb is that he talks about officers signing up fro another six year term...Officers do not do that! They stay until they either retire, resign, courtmartialed or discharged as being no longer needed by the service (read passed over).

QM
Former infantry officer.

*The only time a Promotion Board will approve a person staying in after being passed over twice is if they are two years or less away from twenty years of service. That is by regulation.

I am a retired navy master chief who did a tour of duty in the Naval Military Personnel Command in Washington DC.

I worked closely with the Board for Correction of Naval Records (BCNR). One of the many matters under the BCNR's cognizance is requests by former members to upgrade discharge characterizations.

Sen. Kerry could very well have received an other-than-honorable (OTH) discharge based on his anti-war activities, especially his meetings with the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese delegations in Paris.

The quote in the NY Sun story of his discharge being subject to review by a "board of officers" could indicate that he had requested the characterization of his discharge be upgraded via the BCNR.

But I guess we may never know the truth, because he sure doesn't seem to want anyone to see those missing 100 pages of his military service record.

Some time ago I posted the question if anybody knew when Kerry resigned his commission.

He never did.

10 USC 1163. Cut out the extra crap reads:
An officer of a reserve component may not be separated from that component without consent except under recommendation of a board of officers and is entitled to a discharge under honorable conditions. (thanks to #73 wmjdyer)

All commisioned officers are lifers. Kerry did not complete his obligation - he was kicked out of the Reserve and told to turn-in his ID card.

Charles --

Senator Kerry, when will you sign your Form 180 and allow full disclosure of your records?

C'mon do you have to keep asking ?

Three weeks to go ...

I like to pick at his scabs too ... but Stolen Honor will do way more good.

Set up the TV on the lawn, advertise and give free beer and pizzas to the neighbors to come & watch "Stolen Honor" get it on DVD if you must.

#112 PETN Sandwich.

That simply isn't true.

Officer Promotion Boards were convened at the request of the Secretary of the Service. Being passed over by a Promotion Board, in this case composed solely of officers, meets the test.

Officer were forcefully seperated during Reduction in Force at this time as well. A Board of Officers was convened on several occasions between 1975 and 1978 to review the records of all officers and reccomend those who were at the botttom of the pack to be seperated.

First, I'm not sure that Beldar has correlated the sections on the release forms with the correct section of the USC.

The relevent law would be the "Officer Personnel Act of 1974" not 10 USC 1163 which was dated 1994. It pertained until the Defense Officer Personnel Management Act of 1981.

Much of the laws were similar, but the construction of the Borads and their reporting authority were quite different. However, when concerning officer retention and promtion they are always composed of officers.

Finally, you'll note that on the discharge form it states"
This action is taken in accordance with the approved board of officers convened under the authority of reference (b) to examine the official records of officers of the naval reserve on inactive duty and determine whether they should be retained on the rolls of the Reserve Component or seperated from the Naval Service"

There is no "there", here.

QM

Anybody in the DC area with a day to burn?

Folks, if Kerry had a discharge upgraded it was most likely done under the Special Discharge Review Program conducted by the Naval Discharge Review Board.

The Decisional Documents issued by the DRB are AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC at:

Armed Forces Reading Room
1941 Jefferson-David Highway
Crystal Mall #4, Second Floor
Arlington, VA 22202-4508

Ask for Ms. Wanda Cooper

The Decisional Documents do not contain the name of the individual involved. They should, however, contain enough information to identify Kerry. Basically, you have to use secondary indices involving branch of service, rank, date of enlistment, medals, etc. Wanda says to get there early (8AM) because it will probably take all day.

That's assuming that there are secondary indices that are useful (the primary index is on docket number - which you'd have to get from Kerry.)

For this son, you have take your pajamas off, get dressed and leave your den.

You're looking for the following:

Decisional Documents from the Naval Discharge Review Board, or the Special Discharge Review Program (if they're separate) from Mar 1977 through Mar 1978.

I'm not sure what is contained in the Decisional Documents dating from that period (they were standardized in the early 80's)
Decisional Documents 1997-Current

The problem here is that Kerry absolutely refuses to sign the 180 and release his records.

Why not?

What is he hiding?

Senator Kerry, when will you sign your Form 180 and allow full disclosure of your records?

Well, it seems we have a good idea why the Perpetual Pathological Prevaricator refuses to sign Form 180, and it seems we have a good idea of what would take up a hundred pages-worth of unreleased documents.

This scuz-bucket not only should be kept from the White House, he should be booted out of the Senate, and I'm inclined to think it would be a good idea to boot hiim out of the country. We certainly would be better off without Old Orange Botox Face.

#93 cossack pig

Back at ya. When and where?

How about some bumper stickers?

MR KERRY: SHOW
US YOUR RECORDS

MR. KERRY: WHY ARE YOU
HIDING YOUR RECORDS?

RE: #40 Ginger
Ginger,
You don't get "discharged" from Active Duty unless you'd served at least six years (or at least that's how it worked back in the 1960's and 1970's) - you get released from active duty and transferred to the Inactive Reserve until your full commitment is up. In John Kerry's case, he signed a six-year commitment (virtually everyone did). If there's a "Discharge Certificate" ANYWHERE after Kerry left active duty, but before he finished his six-year commitment, it's a fraud.

#119 curt

1980-1994, NORVA CRU/DES,FACSFAC,NASKEF
NAS WILLOW GROVE.

#122 cossack pig

We may have crossed paths...shoot me an email...

Mostly NorVa for me, AOR/DD/FFG/CDS, then two tours at Dam Neck, one FCTCL, one NSWC FCDSSA, and 3 yrs as CNSL CSA Inspector...