LGF

Apologizing to the Nazis

Sat, Oct 16, 2004 at 8:17:43 am PDT

Britain apologizes for bombing Nazi Germany. (Hat tip: Geepers.)

The Queen will host a concert in Berlin in November to raise money for the final restoration of Dresden’s Frauenkirche (Church of Our Lady), destroyed in an Allied bombing raid in February 1945.

Another raid was recalled in a moving ceremony in a cathedral in the north German city of Brunswick. Britain’s ambassador to Berlin, Peter Torrey, paid tribute to the 560 victims of the RAF’s raid, exactly 60 years ago, on Brunswick.

“It was a bleak and terrifying moment in the modern history of Brunswick,” said Sir Peter in the nave of the cathedral. “How can we explain to our children the madness that was unleashed in those days? How can we explain that such a beautiful and historical city as Brunswick became the target of attacks from the air?”

Tears ran down the cheeks of survivors of the attack in the congregation. Never before has a representative of the British Government given voice to their suffering.

UPDATE at 10/16/04 8:29:36 am:

In fairness, the British ambassador did say that his apology was not really intended as an apology:

However the British have not gone so far as to apologise for the raids. Sir Peter offered no apology and stressed Brunswick had military targets including a tank factory, an aircraft repair works and a railway junction. Moreover, British cities were also under heavy bombardment.

But according to the writer of this piece, the Germans seem to feel they deserve one:

The new mood in the British-German relationship stems from two facts. The first is a British recognition that the partnership is still mired in World War II. The second element is that Germans feel they should no longer be judged against the yardstick of Hitler’s crimes.

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712 comments

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1 lazytart  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:18:45am

OMG.

2 save the fox  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:22:10am

Bit sloppy this one, Charles. The ambassador specifically didn't apologise, claiming legitimate targets in the town.

3 Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:23:04am

Am I the only one that wants to see some of these 'apologists' beat with an axe handle? This kind of crap reminds me of when Clintoon went around the world and apologised for things that he didn't do. Remember when he apologised to the Japanese for the U.S. dropping the A-Bombs on them?

ROFP (Rolling On Floor Puking)

4 Charles  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:25:18am

An apology by any other name...

5 meeps  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:27:49am

the apologies for the bombings of London, ect.
will be delivered when and by whom?

6 kathyn  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:28:23am

save the fox #2. I dunno but it sure sounds like an apology to me. Sir Peter needs to go back and read history and see why that war happened at all. If a country starts a world war, then the consequences are grave.

7 Buick93  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:29:12am

I wonder if Germany will apologize for Coventry. Wow, the concept of a United Europe is causing ALL sorts of weird crap. I can't beleive that this is the same Europe that fought each other for two thousand years. Man, when the US Army invades a continent, they REALLY kick the crap out of it. :)

8 Elcid  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:30:33am

Charles

Ummm, let me guess the finish of

An apology by any other name...

chrysanthemum

9 Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:31:09am

All right...I'm sorry (sniffle)...the axe handle thing was a bit over the top. I should have said beat with a 'length of rubber hose'. You know, something that stings real bad but doesn't break bones. Do y'all accept my apology? (sniffle)

I also want to take this oppurtunity to (sniffle) apologise to the ladies of the world...that there's only ONE of me. I'm sorry...

10 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:31:14am

Dear Germany,

Sorry you let a homicidal maniac run your country and force us to bomb the crap out of you. Dont let it happen again or we'll get mean next time.

11 JHW  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:31:34am

When is Denmark going to apologize for the Viking invasion of Ireland?When is Italy going to apologize for the destruction of Carthage?

12 Keelie  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:31:44am

#6 - Kathyn

Absolutely. If you don't want your ordinary folks to suffer... don't start a f-cking war.

13 JohnSteele  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:32:01am

,i>given voice to their suffering.

Their suffering? Good thing that the ambassador didn't ask my mother who lived though the GERMAN bombings in England!

Has the entire F***G world gone NUTS?

14 dcbatlle  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:32:34am

Well given that it's not really not an apology, but an "acknowledgment" of their suffering, I'm willing to accept this with an open mind.

But will there also be an "acknowledgement" of the suffering of Londoners during the blitz?

15 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:32:51am

“How can we explain to our children the madness that was unleashed in those days? How can we explain that such a beautiful and historical city as Brunswick became the target of attacks from the air?”

I have an idea - hand your children a history book. One that hasn't been re-interpreted via a Po Mo editor. You, know - one which explains the while idea of Liebensraum and Deutscheland Uber Alles and all that. One that recounts SS terror squads executing Jewish families throughout occupied Europe.

That might help you children gain some needed perspective.

16 metroman  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:33:17am

War is war and there were legitimate targets of a military-industrial complex. Back then the British and Americans did not have precision guided weapons and so to achieve victory in a time of war, there had to be collateral damage, which most likely was not purposefully directed. Anything less than full victory against an evil tyrannical regime would have opened the door for future wars. No way am I sorry we won. And to the brave men and women who fought Naziism and tyranny, I salute them with the broadest smile upon my face and the greatest thankfulness in my heart.

17 Elcid  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:33:21am

Damn... Rose. Knew it was one those flowers...

18 mpax  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:34:29am

#10
ROTFLMAO

19 Furious J  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:34:57am

OT: This sounds interesting:

A new 14-minute film, now available for web viewing, uses Michael Moore's film-making techniques to examine The War of the Ring: "Michael Moore's searing examination of the Aragorn administration's actions in the wake of the tragic events at Helms Deep...He looks at how - and why - Aragorn and his inner circle avoided pursuing the Saruman connection to Helms Deep, despite the fact that 9 out of every 10 Orcs that attacked the castle were actually Uruk-hai who were spawned in and financed by Isengard. "

- linkarino

20 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:35:44am

Well, after the Germans kick out Schroeder for not being leftwing/Jew-hating enough and vote in the SS,- and we end up in WWIII and bomb the shit out of the Nazis once again - in 50 years will they demand another apology?

21 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:36:16am
Germans feel they should no longer be judged against the yardstick of Hitler’s crimes.

Then maybe they should stop behaving like Nazis.

22 Mohonky  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:37:04am

She should apologize for burning down the white house in 1812 first!

23 bos  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:37:42am

Thanks to LGF I am in contact with the FOR people about their beautiful project with the photos, and now I know about this humane gesture by Britain. Dresden was a well-known "revenge" bombing that killed more civilians than Nagasaki and Hiroshima combined, and it gives hope that it will be someday be recognized as the war crime of "collective punishment", along with Lidice and Fallujah.

24 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:38:08am

#14 dcbatlle

Well given that it's not really not an apology, but an "acknowledgment" of their suffering, I'm willing to accept this with an open mind.

BS, they deserved what they got. They are very lucky that we didn’t kill every last one of them after we found the death camps. I doubt that the American and British military would have resisted the order.

25 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:38:22am

The herd needs to be thinned.

It's bad enough they believe what they're saying but they're also going to be getting in the way when the defecation hits the rotary oscillator.

26 SeanGleeson  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:38:47am

I am disgusted, and wish I were surprised. Just yesterday, I got an anonymous comment on my blog -- from a liberal, I hasten to add -- that actually praised Hitler, calling him an "humanitarian" for his genocidal efforts.

I deleted the comment, but then I posted about it, to remind readers that this sort of thing can happen in 21st-century America. I also revealed the anonymous commenter's I.P. address.

27 blackpajamas  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:39:03am

If anybody is going to appologize to the lousy hun bastards it should be any of the living descendants of Neville Chamberlain!

28 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:39:23am

"Germans feel they should no longer be judged against the yardstick of Hitler’s crimes."

What yardstick should we use? How about the Mohammed Attah Planned 9/11 From Hamburg Yardstick? Would that be a more appropriate one?

29 bigpinkfluffybunny  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:39:50am

Is it just me, or does it seem lately like everything is the fault of some group whose native language is English?

Maybe there are no words for "sorry" in any other language...

(note...that was sarcasm to those of you without a clue. I speak three languages...and yes, there is a word for sorry in every one of 'em. Sheesh.)

30 BigBlueHog  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:40:24am

Come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together try to love one another right now.

Ahhh... the age of Aquarius... It's all about harmony and understanding.

31 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:41:32am

bos,

Kum bay ya my Lord, kum bay ah.

ummm. feel better now?

32 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:41:33am

#30 BigBlueHog

LOL. I feel better now.

33 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:42:50am

#23 bos

Dresden was a well-known "revenge" bombing that killed more civilians than Nagasaki and Hiroshima combined, and it gives hope that it will be someday be recognized as the war crime of "collective punishment", along with Lidice and Fallujah.

They voted Hilter into office, they grew the food, built the weapons and paid the taxes that enabled Germany to do what it did. They deserved what they got.

34 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:44:24am

It's sad really. Germans are wonderful engineers and designers. Some wonderful things have come out of that county. Too bad they have such a propensity towards mindless hatred and a history of slaughter and death that isn't so distant.

Truly, Germans have no right to lecture anyone about anything involving human rights/politics/ and war.

35 Furious J  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:44:53am

The fetishism of victimhood taken to its logical extreme: Apologizing to Nazis for bombing them in a war the Nazis started.

36 It's Miss Donna V. to you  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:44:59am

This confirms it: British culture is dying. Oh, the people there now might still have the accents and a few remaining cultural quirks, like a fondness for gardening and ale and Yorkshire pudding, but they no longer have anything of importance in common with their ancestors.

Englishmen and women of centuries past had spines.

37 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:47:47am

[engineer]

You left out they also goose stepped over the graves of more than 20 million dead.

38 AG in Houston  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:47:58am

bos

That was a good one.

What's the opposite of white?

Yolk!

Bwaaahahahahaaa!

39 Bob G.  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:48:20am

Guilt & shame, the new "white man's burden."

40 Furious J  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:48:34am

Usually, when we say that trolls are on the side of the Nazis, we're being hyperbolic. bos may be the first troll to literally and openly side with the Nazis.

41 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:49:12am

Bos,

Take these with you and discuss.


[Link: www.cbc.ca...]
[Link: www.thesmokinggun.com...]
[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

[Link: www.russellmangum.com...]

[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

42 Bob G.  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:50:31am

Whatever happened to "don't mention the war, Basil!"

///obscure reference off

43 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:50:44am

#36 It's Miss Donna V. to you

Englishmen and women of centuries past had spines.

Yes they did and not that long ago:

"The application of collective guilt, running from one generation to another, is a dangerous doctrine which would leave few modern nations unscathed." -- Margaret Thatcher
44 SwampWoman  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:51:15am

#25 Bob with 1 O

The herd needs to be thinned.

It's bad enough they believe what they're saying but they're also going to be getting in the way when the defecation hits the rotary oscillator.

Well, as a livestock producer, I gots to ponder that remark. I get rid of the troublemakers amongst the livestock first so's it's easier to round up the docile ones fer slaughter. Personally, I'd rather go down fightin' than live in fear of the eventual slaughter. I reckon most of the LGFrs share that philosophy.

Looks like a majority of Europeans are hopin' to blend in with the herd, not raise their head and be noticeable so they can put off or deny the inevitable as long as possible. Yes, well, perhaps we're going to be slaughtered or perhaps they'll just keep us for breeding so instead of goin' over the fence, why not eat this nice tasty bit of clover here in the pasture instead?

45 Beagle  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:51:36am

#13 JohnSteele

Has the entire F***G world gone NUTS?

There is a silver lining. I've never felt saner.

46 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:52:48am

42 Bob G.

Cleese: They started it!!!

German Tourist: No we didn't!!!

Cleese: Yes you did, you invaded Poland!!!

/British humor mode off

47 blackpajamas  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:52:56am

#36

I agree.

Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for 1000 59 years, men will say, "This was their finest hour."

48 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:53:55am

I'm confused. Is bos saying that killing Nazis should be considered a war crime?

49 Bob G.  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:55:32am

I've got your apology: John Cleese goose-stepping around the dining room table with his index finger under his nose.

50 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:56:09am

Ah, no wonder. Look at the links on bos' site.

Other Other Sites Calling Out the Loons:
Darkwindow
Sadly, No
RocknRev
Warblogger Watch
LGF Watch

Reality Checks:
DU
Counterpunch
Antiwar
Robert Fisk

And we're the loons?

51 Peter Verkooijen  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:56:14am

Where's the German apology (or attempt at "reconciliation" or whatever you wanna call it) for bombing and flattening Rotterdam?

52 selpaw  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:57:48am

21 zulubaby
Oh that's ok. You know Israel treats the palestinians so bad that it sets off the kind of rage which drives vandals to desecrate Jewish cemeteries./


Speaking of evil. The Pogrom Night from the 9th to the 10th November in 1938 shall never be forgotten or forgiven. The Dresden Synagoogue was set on fire and over a hundred Jews were arrested. More than 5,000 members of the Jewish religious community lived in Dresden before 1933. In an official list of September 1939, there were still 1,146 Jews of German citizenship registered. Of these, the great majority had to experience the persecution and destruction of the Dresden Jewish community and of Jewish citizens in general through to the bitter end. This included forcible transfer into Jews' houses, forced labor in Dresden's industrial establishments, the deportation transports. The latter began in January 1942. Their chief destinations were the ghettos of Riga, and in particular, Theresienstadt, as well as the extermination camps of Auschwitz-Birkenau. One of the last presidents of the Jewish community, Dr. Kurt Hirschel, was on Transport V/9 to Theresienstadt. For all practical purposes this was the end of the community. in January 1945, 174 Jewish men, women and children still lived in the city. They survived, insofar as they survived the air raids of February 1945, only because the last planned deportation no longer materialized.

Oh the poor Germans...

Germans feel they should no longer be judged against the yardstick of Hitler’s crimes.

Great Britain and Germany will extend big bear hugs while the Jews who never counted anyway will never forgive and never forget!

53 save the fox  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:57:58am

Don't get me wrong, it's still too much for me. I'm with the late Queen Mother when it comes to Bomber Command.

54 mpax  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:58:08am

#19
Thanks for the link. Clever.

55 JohnSteele  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:58:43am

The second element is that Germans feel they should no longer be judged against the yardstick of Hitler’s crimes.,

I agree that the people of Germany today should not be measured by Hitler's crimes. But not blaming today's Germans is not a valid reason for the Brits to 'apologize' for bombing Hitler's Germany into oblivion.

56 Bob G.  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:58:44am

Sorry hun, didn't mean to interrupt your genocide.

57 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:59:27am

selpaw, the world is getting more sinister by the day. Now they want to forgive the Nazis. Next thing you know they'll be building monuments to commemorate their good work. Anti-Semitism is a disease that afflicts savages.

58 johnCV  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:00:21am

History revised, through the magic of a PC looking glass.

Ask someone who was actually there is they regret, or feel the need to apologize for the military actions taken against the Germans during WWII.

The second element is that Germans feel they should no longer be judged against the yardstick of Hitler’s crimes.

I have no problem with that sentiment. Germany is a different country today, and deserves to be treated in accordance with it's current actions. But that does not mean history should be forgotten, or rewritten to accomodate the new paradigm.

59 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:00:46am

#50 zulubaby

Reality Checks:
DU
Counterpunch
Antiwar
Robert Fisk

You really have to be kidding. Those blogs for Reality Checks? No wonder his/her/its mind is so messed up.

60 MartinG  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:01:01am

# 21 Zulubaby,

Then maybe they should stop behaving like Nazis

Now come on, that's a tiny majority weho is doing such things, but the way you put it you could think it's all of us.

And saying that Germans living today

feel they should no longer be judged against the yardstick of Hitler’s crimes.

is not the same as saying that we think we are owed an apology.

61 Bob G.  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:01:44am

I guess for these retroactive appeasers, it's never too late to get with the pogrom.

62 Carolyn  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:02:54am

Through the looking glass? This is nuts.

63 pa_infidel  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:03:04am

Im sure Winston Churchill is rolling over in his grave

sad sad sad

64 applesweet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:03:11am

lazytart #1

What you said.

What in the HELL did all our service wo/men die for?
I can't handle this.

65 MartinG  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:03:27am

# 51, Peter Verkooijen

Where's the German apology (or attempt at "reconciliation" or whatever you wanna call it) for bombing and flattening Rotterdam?

With all due respect, we have done that. Or are you saing that we haven't faced up to waht our grandparents did?

66 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:03:52am

Swamp woman,

You're right and the opposition would be coming for us first.

67 Craig Abu Al-Boo-Boo  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:04:34am

"How can we explain that such a beautiful and historical city as Brunswick became the target of attacks from the air?”


Free tours of Auschwitz.

68 myocarditis  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:04:55am

#16
the carpet bombing of German cities at the end of the war WAS a conscious strategy on the part of Churchill, aimed at terrorizing the population. Sure, in the context of that war and that time in history it may have been a legitimate strategy, but the idea that a lack of precision-guided munitions was to blame simply won't wash.

#21
I'm sure you could pick any news story coming out of any country about any group of yahoos, and draw sweeping conclusions about all that country's inhabitants. Because an isolated cross burning in the American South would surely prove that Americans hate blacks, right?

I don't see what the fuss is about. As has been pointed out, the British ambassador never apologized for the carpet bombing per se, and the Germans never asked for an apology. They merely ask that 60 years down the line, they not be forever judged for crimes that most of them (pretty much any German under the age of say, 80) had nothing to do with. Though I know that nothing should get in the way of a good rant against "Old Europe".

And since many of you insist on holding the Germans' past against them, is it not inconsistent to then fault them from staying out of Iraq? After all, a key lesson from the past that many Germans take (and living in Europe, I know more than a few) is that sending troops to a foreign country that has caused them no harm is...how should i put it...verboten.

69 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:05:11am
Germans feel they should no longer be judged against the yardstick of Hitler’s crimes.

That's true. A meterstick would be more appropriate.

70 Phil.  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:05:55am

It is so simplisme to say one system of government is better than another or that one people's culture is better than another. The Nazis were just another culture and should be respected as such. To do otherwise would be to lack nuance and tolerance and diversity.

Unless of course, you're a Jew. In which case, fuck you.

/LLL

71 leo (dissident view from Berlin)  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:06:52am

The British ambassador to Berlin asked:

How can we explain that such a beautiful and historical city as Brunswick became the target of attacks from the air?

Well, take my account for instance:

I grew up in Würzburg, which was firebombed 7 weeks before the capitulation. When I heard of the history of that place as a child everybody told me about the March 16th bombings as an exceptional and unexpected surprise. Later I learned that the Nazis had changed the rules of international conduct years ago, and introduced firebombing of cities as a method of warfare that could be expected to come back home when the tide turned. But even in early 1945 there must have been some weird sense of normality which made the people of Würzburg think they were still living under the old pre-war rules. And that with U.S. tanks already having crossed the Rhine and the frontline being merely two weeks away! This impression seems to be most intensive among the generation which experienced the firebombings and the accompanying Goebbels propaganda as little children or youth.

The New York Times and the London Guardian have written about Jörg Friedrichs, a German historian from the 1968er left. Since last year, Mr. Friedrichs runs a campaign to tickle the memories of the elder generation who sat in the shelters as children listening to propaganda telling them that they would have been attacked for no reason. Anything which could be interpreted as an apology, even if the direct use of that term is avoided, helps that Goebbels propaganda to live on. The ceremony in Berlin is useless and a sign of an undemocratic distribution of power within the European Union. Everything which needed to be said about these bombings was already said by President Bush in his USS Lincoln speech:

In the images of falling statues, we have witnessed the arrival of a new era.

In defeating Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, Allied forces destroyed entire cities, while enemy leaders who started the conflict were safe until the final days. Military power was used to end a regime by breaking a nation.

Today, we have the greater power to free a nation by breaking a dangerous and aggressive regime.

72 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:06:54am

OT - Drudge just posted ...

FLASH: NEWSWEEK POLL BUSH 50% KERRY 44% NADER 1%... DEVELOPING...

73 Paco from Sefarad  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:11:05am

The world is indeed losing the plot.

Franco veteran to join war parade

Spain celebrates its national holiday each year with a military parade, during which King Juan Carlos lays a wreath in memory of those gave their lives for the country.

This year, in a departure from tradition, he will be accompanied by relatives of those killed by Eta, the Basque terrorist group, and those who died in the Madrid bombing.

They will be joined by two veterans of the Spanish civil war, a former Republican who went on to join the liberation of Paris in 1944 and a nationalist who later became a member of Franco's Blue Division.

The Blue Division was a volunteer force that Franco sent to fight alongside the Germans near Leningrad in 1941, despite Spain's official neutrality.

"I'm not going to give anyone a hard time for what they did 60 years ago," José Bono, the defence minister, said yesterday. "It's far more important that we celebrate the fact that Spain is at peace today."

[snip]

"The defence minister is trying to put those who fought for freedom on an equal footing with the people who massacred them," said Gaspar Llamazares, the leader of the extreme left. "[The liberation of Europe] is part of the legacy of many Spanish republicans who gave their lives in the fight against the fascism of Franco and other European dictators. They are the people who deserve the recognition of the entire Spanish public and no one else."
74 selpaw  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:11:37am

#57 zulubaby
They would be happy if we forgot. They can not understand why we can not bring ourselves to ever forgive. My great great grandchildren many generations removed should never forget and certainly never forgive.

Anyway, the sentence always starts out like this:

"Why can't YOU PEOPLE understand that many years have past now? It is time to simply get over it. We want to forget but 'you people' never seem to let go...!"
75 jeff1999  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:13:26am

HAS ANYONE SEE THE LATEST AP ARTICLE DEPICTING THE MILITARY POLL SHOWING ITS AGAINST BUSH.

The worst case of media bias thus far. No mention of the major findings that the military overwhelminly favors Bush.

Check out yahoo news.

Unbelievable, they're actually spinning the opposite way.

76 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:14:09am

Martin G,

I know a lady who survived Dresden as well as a gentleman from the Third Armored Div that still vividly recalls liberating one of the camps. I've got several patients with funny little tatoos of numbers on their arms. For a lot of us there are constant daily reminders. BTW we didn't just bomb Germany back to the stone age and kill 10 million of her people, we helped rebuild her.

77 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:15:43am

Regarding the Yardstick -

Sorry folks, the idea that German gets to transcend its history is absurd. No more than we get to transcend ours.

Germany has and has had a strong sense of exceptionalism. Read Heidegger - both pre-war and post-war. I did work over in Europe for about 10 years (most of the 90s), and got to know germans and frenchies quite well. No, there is no single definition that fits all germans. However, there is a great deal of pride in being german, a sense of identity based in history, and a sense that they have a better handle on many things than others do (esp. "you Americans").

Sorry - Germany has to live with its history. However Iraq turns out (I think it will work out if we stick with it) we will have to live with that too. A germany freed from selective portions of its past, while it embraces other aspects (such as the artists, philosophers and its intrinsic "strength"), will repeat its past.

Many older germans know this which is why they were quick to join the EU - as if to stiffle the ambitions of future generations.

78 jeff1999  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:15:49am

HAS ANYONE SEE THE LATEST AP ARTICLE DEPICTING THE MILITARY POLL SHOWING ITS AGAINST BUSH.

The worst case of media bias thus far. No mention of the major findings that the military overwhelminly favors Bush.

Check out yahoo news.

Unbelievable, they're actually spinning the opposite way.

79 westoner  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:15:50am

The bombing of Dresden was at the bequest of the advancing Soviet forces. Dresden was an important staging and transport hub for the defending German forces.

The Germans can count themselves lucky that the western allies and Americans in particular were so merciful towards the defeated. They after all started not one, but two world wars within a span of just 25 five years.

Stalin seriously suggested to Churchill and Truman after the war that 50,000 Germans should be rounded up and executed as punishment. Churchill and Truman of course rejected the idea. There was even briefly a consideration by the Americans of dropping an atomic bomb on Germany after the surrender as a demonstration, and warning to any further aggression.

80 applesweet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:16:18am

When it comes to Europe, I am NOW staunchly anti war
No way, no how should ever our military come to their aid under any circumstances. Other than to maybe bomb some armament factories.

I am beyond sickened. This is total despair.
I've never truely believed in isolationism. Maybe I'm beginning to see that as a good thing.
They take care of their business, keeping their noses out of ours and we'll reciprocate.

81 Carolyn  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:16:45am

George Bernard Shaw said:
"We learn from history that we learn nothing from history."

82 bos  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:17:25am

If you supposed anti-Nazis knew the first thing about the Nazis, you would have recognized the "Lidice" reference as the Nazi's razing of an entire town in Czechoslovakia as the collective punishment for the assassination of Heydrich.

In response to such things (possibly including the Dresden firebombing) the Geneva Conventions of '49 established collective punishments as a war crime. Article 33, Fourth Convention states: “No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed” and “collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited".

So, again, Lidice, Dresden, and Fallujah.

83 pbird  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:17:42am

This is not meant to insult any modern Germans at all, but I am still noticing on the History channel besides its obsession with Hitler and WW11 a very gradual cleaning up of Hitler's reputation and meaning. I must say I am surprised to have observed this.
The last show I saw was High Hitler that allowed us to possibly believe that this whole thing was a drug problem and the fault of his nasty doctor.

84 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:17:51am

MartinG (#60)

Now come on, that's a tiny majority weho is doing such things, but the way you put it you could think it's all of us.

No, I don't think all Germans behave like that.

Any comment on the desecration of the Jewish graves?

And saying that Germans living today
feel they should no longer be judged against the yardstick of Hitler’s crimes.
is not the same as saying that we think we are owed an apology.

You're right, it isn't, but it illustrates that the Germans think that the world should forgive and forget what the Nazis did.

85 JohnSteele  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:20:50am

82 bos
If you supposed anti-Nazis knew the first thing about the Nazis, ...

So, again, Lidice, Dresden, and Fallujah.

Tell me that you don't mean to say what we are doing in Fallujah today as a war crime? Tell me that's not what you meant.

86 Paul  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:20:50am

The problem with WWII bombing was that it was extremely inaccurate, less than two percent of the bombs hit their intended target, the rest fell far and wide, destroying many homes and other buildings, killing many civilians.

But no one would have been killed if the Germans hadn't unleased a genocidal war on Europe. The vast majority of the people who died in Europe were killed deliberately and systematically by the nazis. The Germans are not owed an apology for the steps the allies took to defeat them.

87 jeff1999  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:21:14am

Sorry to interrupt the convo with a different subject.

Could this be the worst example? I know there are a lot to compare to.

88 old sarge ski  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:21:32am

#9
something that stings real bad but doesn't break bones

Er...uhh...a flamethrower stings real bad but doesn't break bones.

Historical precendent: burning at the stake.

89 Beagle  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:21:48am

I'd like to apologize to the Japanese for denting their bombs with our battleships at Pearl Harbor, and for my gluttonous father eating that pound of rice over four years while in captivity.

Oh, and D-Day, what a goof that was. I think we should have armed Hitler and Stalin. That could have been our French-style 'third way'.

90 bos  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:22:59am

85 John,

So you'll give me Dresden if I give you Fallujah?

91 Havoc  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:23:00am
If Mr. Savage (Not Michael Savage) and others imagine that one can somehow "overcome" the German army by lying on one's back, let them go on imagining it, but let them also wonder occasionally whether this is not an illusion due to security, too much money, and a simple ignorance of the way in which things actually happen...
What I object to is the intellectual cowardice of people who are objectively and to some extent emotionally pro-Fascist, but who don't care to say so and take refuge behind the formula "I am just as anti-Fascist as anyone, but--". The result of that so-called peace propaganda is just as dishonest and intellectually disgusting as war propaganda. Like war propaganda, it concentrates on putting forward a "case", obscuring the opponent's point of view and avoiding awkward questions.

-George Orwell

92 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:23:40am

bos,

No, we know what you were referring to but chose not to comment because your logic is somewhat faulty.

When was Falujah firebombed?

Please take your moral relativism elswhere.

BTW we aren't "supposed anti-Nazis." We are anti-Nazi.

93 Old Fart 43  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:23:56am

#23
Boo Hoo Hoo. Germany killed in excess of 20 Million people world wide and for what? Do you think I give a damn about what they had to suffer? Ask a Jew.

94 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:24:45am
95 SwampWoman  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:26:05am

#66 Bob with 1 O

Swamp woman,

You're right and the opposition would be coming for us first.

Yep. In schools, if you hit back against a bully you are just as culpable as the bully and may even be charged with assault. Think about a whole generation of American kids being taught that self-defense is wrong, and only somebody in authority; i.e. the teacher, has the right to decide if you are being picked on and deserve justice (not to mention that bullies do not strike when the teacher is looking.)

I would blame the feminization of education, but I knocked the front tooth of an older boy out that was picking on me in school, so maybe that ain't it. (He learned a valuable lesson there...do not knock little skinny nerdy girls off the sidewalk who have a bookbag full of Steinbeck and Zane Grey novels. If you gonna beat up girls, look for the ones with bookbags full of teen heart throb magazines.)

96 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:26:05am

#90 bos

So you'll give me Dresden if I give you Fallujah? London

Try comparing apples to apples moral moron.

97 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:27:24am

[Engineer] (#59)

Not only that, but it's probably come to us courtesy of LGF Watch, the site that is devoted to slamming LGF.

98 JohnSteele  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:27:38am

#90 bos
85 John,

So you'll give me Dresden if I give you Fallujah?

We're not talking about trading horses here! I will not give you either Dresden or Fallujah. Neither was or is a 'war crime'. The emphasis was to question your inclusion of Fallujah in an argument about 'collective punishment.'

If you want to disucss Dresden then we cannot do that without Coventry.

99 MartinG  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:28:12am

Bob with one O and Selpaw,

yes, there are a few who'd like to forget, or even deny it all, but that indeed is a minority. And it's becauwe of such people that holocaust denial is illegal here.

karmic_inquisitor,

of course we have to live with our history, what this is about is that Germans living today don't want to blamed personally for what their grandparents did.


zulubaby,

of course I condemn such acts.

And forgiving and forgetting isn't the issue, it's about not being blamed ourselves, as I said above.

100 gymnast  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:29:17am

#82,90. bos. Now that you have proven that you know not much about anything but have strong relativistic feelings, why don't you, to put it politely, take a hike.

101 Geepers  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:29:24am

Thanks for the hat tip Charles.

102 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:29:55am

MartinG, who should we blame for the Holocaust if not the Germans?

103 applesweet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:31:04am

Oh sure give them leeway. By saying I'm not like my grandparents or great grandparents. Sure, like man learns from his mistakes. The german people are one of the bloodiest in mans history, so let's give them leeway to start down that path again?
Tell you what, we Americans will sit on our front porches this time and watch you decimate each other.
If anyone really believes that by 'joining' a continental club called the EU will change the nature of the beast is a fricking lunatic. It's only a matter of time before whoever is the big guns over this 'elite' club start deciding who can participate and who will be the peasantry.
Europe is looking a new dark age, between its amoral behaviour towards each other and the fact they are looking at having to deal with the unassimilated hordes of uncivilized muslims that have made them selves at home sucking at the collapsing lacting teat of europe, we need to butt out.
Maybe we can watch this shit off our satellites..

104 Dar ul Harbarian  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:31:51am

Fuck the Germans. They deserved every ounce of explosives Harris dropped on them. When are they going to appologize for the Battle of Britain? Fuckers.

106 SwampWoman  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:33:14am

#102 Zulubaby

MartinG, who should we blame for the Holocaust if not the Germans?

Zulu honey, are you bein' deliberately obtuse today? You knooow it was the jooos fault.

I ain't clear on all the details yet, but I'm sure one o' them equivocating moral giants like bos will be glad to 'splain it all for us.

107 MartinG  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:33:39am

zulubaby # 102,


MartinG, who should we blame for the Holocaust if not the Germans?

I meant blaming us living today

108 Beagle  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:34:54am

#102 zulubaby

If I told you the crap I heard last night about Jewish bankers, blah, blah... I was quizzed on my ancestry again, and I'm not in Europe. It's the same shit, different island, as they say in the Caribbean.

BTW, Jew haters, I'm not going quietly because I tan easily and don't know which nation my father's family came from. Nope. I'm taking ten of you with me, at least.

I'd forgotten that conversation (from last night) until just now. I must be blocking how bad it really is.

109 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:36:11am

#82 bos

the Geneva Conventions of '49 established collective punishments as a war crime.

So it was not in effect when Dresen was bombed.

Even if it was, Germany used the V1 & V2 against England which meant that they were outside of the treaty and we could do what we wished- you need to read the rest of the Geneva Conventions.

110 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:36:20am

#107 marting

I meant blaming us living today


So then the europeons should just STFU about slavery, indians, racism and all the other LLL crap that's hurled at the US.

111 Dar ul Harbarian  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:37:32am

What is with all of this apologizing anyway? I suggest that any American or Brit who feels the need to apologize for their nations actions should just make a video of their hair-pulling-teeth-gnashing suicide by self immolation or wrist slashing or whatever. Then they should be compiled on one website for the world to see.

112 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:38:29am

Martin G,

OK.


Swamp woman,

You hit the nail on the head with that one. It's not feminization it's more a U.N.'ization. My sister bloodied a boy's nose in school and she caught hell (when the adults weren't laughing). The sports people do the same thing, first person gets off while retaliation gets punished. It's just so backwards.

113 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:39:20am

#111 Dar ul Harbarian

What is with all of this apologizing anyway?


It doesn't cost anything but it makes them feel good.

114 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:41:15am

Isn't the family name "Beagle" English?

115 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:41:49am

SwampWoman, LOL. Is there anything the Jews aren't responsible for?

MartinG, I don't hold you, MartinG, personally responsible for the Holocaust but sorry, if you're pissy about your country's history, be pissed at Hitler, not at me or the rest of the world. It's your history to deal with and the consequences of that history has taken a greater toll on the Jews than it has on the Germans. Forgive me the lack of sympathy.

The Europeans have plenty to say about the Jews, about Israel, about the US, about the war, etc. All Jews are held responsible for what anyone who happens to be Jewish does. Now you know how it feels.

116 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:42:16am
117 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:42:43am

Beagle, that's disgusting. I don't know how I would react if that went on in my presence.

118 BigBlueHog  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:45:20am

On a sad note: Navy is getting beat by ND. Whoa what sad times are these. Navy can still finish the season with only one loss.

119 bos  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:46:15am

92 Bob

I mentioned "supposed anti-Nazis" because people were calling me a Nazi sympathizer, despite my mention of the Nazi's massacre of Lidice, which anyone who knows anything about (anti-)Naziism should know about.

98 John,

I guess one of those smiley things would've indicated a tongue in cheek. However by the end you yourself are horse-trading -- you are saying because of Nazis' collective punishment of Coventry, the collective punishment of Dresden was okay? Tit-for-tat means no war crime? We are talking about hundreds of thousands of dead civilians here.

100 gymnast, does variance of view have no place whatever here? Should I hike while you do your mental gymnastics? Read up on Lidice sometime, see if it doesn't remind of Dresden..

All: Are you saying the military moves on Fallujah weren't prompted by the episode of the killing of the mercenaries/civilian contractors?

120 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:46:55am

Martin G

I will treat any man as a gentleman until he proves otherwise.

121 Nancy  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:47:01am

I am speechless.

Today's Germans do not have to be judged by Hitlers crimes but neither should anyone EVER apologize for what was necessray to finally stop them.

Many, many years ago, I had noticed how complacent people had become (in the 70's) by insisting that a "Nazi" regime could NEVER occur again because we would "know better." That it could NEVER happen.

I would argue that as soon as we began to believe that something that atrocious could NOT occur, we were creating the potential for it TO occur.

It is naive to even think that we are going to prevent evil ideologies if we deny the possibility that any COULD occur.

122 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:48:41am

OT OT OT

This morning while listening to Fox I have heard them saying that Michael Moore will speak next weekend at PennState...AND HE WILL BE PAYED THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLARS BY PENNSTATE FOR THE SPEECH.

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT: THAT'S HOW PENNSTATE USES THE MONEY THAT FAMILIES PAY FOR THEIR CHILDRENS' TUITION !!!

CAN WE DO ANYTHING ? IS ANYONE HERE INTERESTED IN HELPING ME TO PROTEST ???

(i'm just starting, I haven't either got the emails of PennState)

Please Charles and everybody forgive me but I'm going to post this from time to time.

123 Old Fart 43  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:49:35am

#50 Zulubaby
LGF watch, hot-damn we.re famous. It makes me feel so much safer the the lefties are keeping an eye on us racist, rightwing, lying scum over here in lala land. I'm really not sure why they want to monitor us but I also really don't give a s**t. Anyone who would support a someone who defamed our fighting men like he did in 71 and 72 has no right to condem what anyone else thinks or says.

124 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:51:07am

Bos,

Sorry, but you did come across that way.

The lady from Dresden was telling me that her husband, a German officer, knew the war was lost in 1943. They also, incorrectly, supposed Dresden hadn't been previously bombed because the Germans thought the Allies would dictate the post war peace from there.

125 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:51:47am

Seeing this has me too damned angry to say what I am thinking out loud, and as I recall the panes of plain glass in, I believe, St. Paul's Cathedral in london, left that way as a reminder of the blitz, and my aunt's first trip to the UK, where she went to look at the street where my maternal grandfather, an English Jew, grew up, in the East End, and being told that it was no longer there...blitzed...I feel an anger towards the blind Brits who would do this..they not only spit on the dead Brits who died in all the bombings, in England, and at their incredibly brave military, who gave their lives to save their own country, and the rest of Europe, but they spit on all of our military who went to fight, to save all of us from the same fucking nazis who were burning my relatives from Lithuania in the ovens.

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for Dresden, or anywhere in Germany. They adored h*** (may his name be obliterated) and their national euphoria occurred in my lifetime.

I will never forgive, and I will never forget. Make no mistake, there are still neo-nazis in Germany, and they would do it all over again if they could.

Yes, there are some in the Germany of 2004 who repent, but damn it, they didn't even teach German children about the evil unlike any other perpertrated a mere 60 plus years ago until recently. Many involved are still alive, and sit in the pubs and coffee houses reminiscing about 'the good old days'.

Whatever possessed the Brits to do this???

I will give the Germans credit for one thing that we would do well to emulate: hate, on the internet, is a crime, and neo-nazi websites are closed down. Here? the freedom to hate is PC, and the aclu will defend their right to it, even when the storm troopers are at the door.

I am going to try and calm down. This really has gotten to me.

126 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:52:02am

Old Fart 43, and then we have LGF Watch Watch to keep an eye on the twerps at LGF Watch ;-)

127 Beagle  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:53:52am

#117 zulubaby

Beagle, that's disgusting. I don't know how I would react if that went on in my presence.

I'm reacting now. It felt like drowning. That's a line from When Trumpets Fade, and seems appropriate now. I was not in my house, and I wasn't getting any support from those around me. As often happens to me, I'm having the visceral reaction much later. At first, my survival instinct kicks in and I just look around while weighing my options.

There is nothing like experiencing anti-Semitism when you aren't actually Jewish. It gives you perspective, as in "too much f***ing perspective". Being an American, and not able to chart my pedigree back 20 generations, I can't prove 'pure' blood.

WTF? This did all start out by me answering a question on the whole world having gone insane. I guess I'm still on that topic. I now know the "I'd rather die in battle" feeling. It's empowering in a very, very angry sort of way.

128 MartinG  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:54:26am

zulubaby,

I'm not 'pissy' at all, and I know who is to blame.

I just wanted to point out some things, considering the way the thread was going. I mean, it all originate with some coniliatory remarks by the ambassador (which I didn't interpret as an apology, nor should there be one, im my opinion).

Bob with one O,

thanks. :)

129 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:54:27am

#119 bos

All: Are you saying the military moves on Fallujah weren't prompted by the episode of the killing of the mercenaries/civilian contractors?

sucide bombings, roadside bombs, drive by killings, kidnappings. You might try describing the situation correctly. But since your premise is always US bad - natives good that's not possible.

130 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:55:08am

Poiters- Lepanto,

It sucks but we do live in a market economy. We also have a First Amendment.

BTW It's good work if you can get it. Sorry.

131 Mar  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:55:35am

MartinG is saying that the Germans of today should not be held for what occured 60 years ago.

He is right.

132 Gang of One  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:59:11am

Martin G,

As long as there is one fucking neo-nazi around breathing, yes, you are to blame.

Fuck you and your Teutonic sensitivities.

133 bos  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:00:28am

Bob with no O,

thanks for getting human on me. I don't always expect it in the rubber room. Could you tell us more about the lady from Dresden?

134 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:00:36am
135 stefania  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:00:51am

If Hitler was alive today, Britain would apologize to him directly..

136 Gang of One  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:01:12am

Mar,

FOAD, apologist.

137 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:02:32am

#130 Bob with one O

First Amendment :that the families of the students ARE (indirectly) COMPELLED to pay thirty thousand dollars to Michael Moore ?

He can speak wherever he wants, in my opinion, for free.

Market economy ?
The commies at Penn State pay thirty thousand dollars to MM the commie stealing from the funds for education ??? This is market economy ? I don't think so !!!

138 stefania  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:02:35am

al-Reuters is disappointed of finding Bush still leading Kerry by 4..


Reuters Poll: Bush Keeps Four-Point Lead on Kerry

139 Gang of One  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:02:36am

Where's Bigel when he's needed?!

140 gymnast  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:03:01am

#119, bos. To equate Lidice to Dresden is like saying all death results from heart stoppage and that the key to life is preventing heart stoppage. Dresden was not postumous retribution for the legacy of Reinhardt Heidrich.

141 Craig Abu Al-Boo-Boo  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:04:50am

To paraphrase Golda Meir:

We can forgive the Germans for killing our children, but we can never forgive them for forcing us to kill theirs.

142 stefania  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:06:31am

The mainstream media were waiting for that..

Violence Returns to Afghanistan After Election Lull

"Italy facing high unemployment , 60-years after the fall of Mussolini "..

just joking (althought the high unemployment is a real problem here )

143 applesweet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:10:19am

bos #98


Not taking into consideration of what your age is, but neither of those cities are yours to negotiate.
Your arrogance is showing.

144 Loch Inkopf  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:11:03am

I grew up in the East End of London surrounded by bombed out houses and piles of ash-strewn debris. The Luftwaffe flattened the East End the way they’d flattened Guernica, and they killed scores of thousands of people, people just like you and me. When the RAF finally drove the Luftwaffe from the skies, the Germans sent V1’s and the V2's, unguided missiles intended to kill anyone and destroy anything, just for the sake of killing and destroying. Finally, the RAF and the USAAF gave the Germans back precisely what they’d been dishing out, in spades, doubled and redoubled.

At Dresden , the RAF killed 100,000 people, mostly civilians, many of them refugees transported in by cattle truck. Most died of asphyxiation, their bodies burnt to ashes, their only means of identification buckets of collected wedding rings. (Any of this sound familiar?) At Dresden, the Germans got back ONE-SIXTIETH of what they’d been doing to the Jews of the countries they’d over-run. It’ll be an icy-blizzard day in hell before I’ll forgive or forget, and if the British ambassador wanted to grovel to the Germans by way of an apology, by God he didn’t do it in my name.

145 sonofsheldon  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:11:37am

What next? Will the survivors of the Warsaw ghetto be expected to apologize for fighting back? Their grandchildren are certainly being condemned for fighting back against the Islamo-fascist heirs of nazism.

146 bos  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:12:12am

140 Gymnast,

You lost me a bit. Are you saying Dresden was not a revenge bombing? The military target argument is laughable. Churchill was obsessed with England's superiority ala the 19th century and the use of force to prove it -- whether it was revenge bombings of civilian cities or sterilization of the poor, which he also advocated.

147 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:13:52am

Poiters-Lepanto,

Good points but if the parents of Penn Staters and the citizens of Pennsylvania want their children to hear MM spout his rubbish that's their problem. I watched MM on the Tonight Show a few weeks ago and he is not a very good speaker, very disororganized, mumbles and stares at his shoes.

My problem is they most likely won't get to hear opposing viewpoints from Prager, VDH etc.

148 Right Wing Nutt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:15:08am
FLASH: NEWSWEEK POLL BUSH 50% KERRY 44% NADER 1%... DEVELOPING...

real clear politics, is reporting that number that drudge is taking, oddly though when you read that poll on msnbc, it has bush only up 2 and calls it a dead heat???

something odd there

149 piglet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:15:12am

There was a book written called Fatherland, in which Germany used a rocket against NYC and the US stopped fighting in Europe. The book waqs set in the 1960's and the US is about to start normailizing relations with the thousand year reich. The scariest part was he thought of Nazi germany being accepted, even if it Reduced the amount of old school violence ( and had run out of jews to kill).


Or was the british guy crossing the line to ask about the "true enemy" that "caused this crazyness" the JOOOSSS!

150 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:16:58am

bos:

I've been reading your inane posts (why yes, I am bored - thanks for asking) and I have a question:

WTF is your point?

151 Bob with one O  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:17:46am

bos,

War is hell. Second guessing is a waste of time.

152 mksmash  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:18:03am

Waaay OT but...

Charles

I am admiting today that yesterday I went to the movie Team America World Police

Please, Please go see it and start a topic!

Let me explain. I happened on the Rotten Tomatoes
[Link: maint.rottentomatoes.com...] review page. The interesting thing was that all the flaming liberal reviewers hated it (I think Roger Ebert gave it a C-). I mean they were NOT amused. The more I read, the more I became interested.

All I can say is this: If you can stomach some really vile patches (I won't go into any details) these guys generally gave conservatives a pass but really slammed the hollywood elite.

I would NEVER recommend this movie to ANYONE.

But Charles--please, please...

153 the DRUNK report  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:21:29am

I only wish I were shocked...

154 Geepers  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:21:49am

If it's any wonder where bos gets his ideas:

Winston Churchill was a war criminal.

Winston Churchill was effectively a war criminal who sanctioned the extermination of Germany's civilian population through indiscriminate bombing of towns and cities, an article in the country's biggest-circulation newspaper claimed yesterday.

In an unprecedented attack on Allied conduct during the Second World War, the tabloid Bild has called for recognition to be given to the suffering inflicted on the German population during the strategic air campaign of 1940-45.

Well I guess we now know that the Queen of England jumps to when the Germans demand an apology.

155 mksmash  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:22:34am

#148 Right Wing Nutt

I noticed the same thing (we both have a lot to do!), but if you read down you learn that the Drudge numbers are likely voters and the headline numbers are registered voters.


mk

156 Maine's Michael  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:22:52am

I can't recall a British official making similar quasi apologetic noises to the jews for:

1) Failing to bomb the concentration camp and supplying railway infrustructure.

2) Turning away boatloads of fleeing jews from Palestine, back to nazi europe where many persihed.

3) For stripping away 75% of the Palestine Mandate and giving it to a clan of carpetbagging bedouins from the arabian peninsula ('hashemites), leaving the jews to fight with arabs for the remaining 25% for all eternity

4) Supplying those same arabs in the 25% palestine remnant with their left behind weapons.

But then again, why should they apologize to jews?

Maybe I'm just bitter.

157 damital  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:24:20am

Gee... all this apologizing going on and all, I'm gonna be ill. grrr...

158 Poitiers-Lepanto  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:29:05am

#147 Bob with one O

GOOD NEWS ABOUT MM AT PENN STATE:

"Mike Gallagher is going to Happy Valley! As a result of the controversy created by Penn State University spending thousands of dollars to have filmmaker Michael Moore speak on campus on October 22nd, Mike Gallagher is going there, too, to raise money for our troops and their families. It's been reported that it will cost $30,000.00 for Michael Moore's speech. Gallagher wants to raise at least one penny more, $30.000.01 for "Gallagher's Army", The Mike Gallagher Show Charitable Foundation to Benefit our Troops."

See the story at Gallagher's page:

www.mikeonline.com

159 piglet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:30:01am
Thanks to LGF I am in contact with the FOR people about their beautiful project with the photos, and now I know about this humane gesture by Britain. Dresden was a well-known "revenge" bombing that killed more civilians than Nagasaki and Hiroshima combined, and it gives hope that it will be someday be recognized as the war crime of "collective punishment", along with Lidice and Fallujah.

Actually, if the US had firebombed Fallugah we would have had hundreds of less dead in iraq, and saved the lives of thousands of innocent iraqs at the cost of say 100,000 scumbag sunny baathests.

Funny did you mean Halabja, where saddam used poison gas against the Kurds? Of course you didn't
and that gas was produced with the help of german chemical firms.


Since your pathetic web site just went from say 8 hits to 8000 due to your link here, please remember to use paypal to thank Charles with $$$.

Oh, and you should learn how to count, unless you knew you were not tellling the truth:


[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The precise number of dead is difficult to ascertain and is not known. Estimates vary from 25,000 to more than 135,000 dead although the official German report (TB47) at the time refers to 25,000 dead and most historians now view 25,000-40,000 as the likely range (Dresden, Fredrick Taylor).

Such estimates are made very difficult by the fact that the city was crowded at that time by many unregistered refugees and wounded soldiers. The foreign forced labourers may represent a large number of dead, since they were usually employed in the squads to fight fire storms. (In comparison, some 100,000 died in the bombing of Hiroshima, about 50,000 in the bombing of Nagasaki and 100,000 in the bombing of Tokyo and 200,000 were killed in Warsaw during the Warsaw uprising 1944.) There have been larger estimates for the number of dead, ranging as high as a quarter of a million, but they are from disputed sources, such as the Nazi Propaganda Ministry and controversial amateur historian and prominent Holocaust denier David Irving. The Nazis made use of Dresden in their propaganda and promised swift retaliation. (The Soviets later made propoganda use of the Dresden Bombing in the early years of the cold war to alienate the East Germans from the Americans and British).


Nazi scumbag you-Master yoda

160 Mar  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:30:30am

134 Iron Fist,

Of course I am. I think it is one of the most stupid ideas in a world awash with stupid ideas.

136

Right back at you oh childish one foaming at the mouth.. So using your reasoning, or lack of, all people from SA are guilty because of apartheid, southern Americans should be held responsible because for Jim Crow laws and slavery and everyone in North America is bad because of the way Native Americans were treated?


And what exactly am I an apologist for? My paternal Grandfather was wounded at Passchendale, my maternal Grandfather was on a mine sweep in WWII and 2 of my uncles served overseas in WWII.
It is good that they, discounting Grandfather 1, helped to stop the Nazis, who were evil incarnate.

Doesn't mean all Germans were and it doesn't mean Germans of today are.

Piglet 149,

Was that Hitler Victorious?

161 Right Wing Nutt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:30:48am

look at what powerline has to say about poll and newsweek, the article and results are crazy

[Link: www.powerlineblog.com...]

162 LSD  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:31:15am

I'm German.

My Grandparents escaped Germany, because it sucked under the nazis.

Fuck Apoligizing to Germany.

They got what they deserved.

This is a sick joke.

163 Victor  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:33:15am

It is fascinating to watch the human mind grapple with the concept of right and wrong. No creature in earth's history has had to wrestle with that. What is right, and what is wrong, and how do we know it? Is there an objective yardstick? And will we ever reach universal agreement on the matter -- peace -- or instead spend eternity trading blows in the bloody mud? The awful crux of the matter forever convulsing us.

164 Mar  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:33:48am

152 mksmash,

I think it was Matt Stone that said ," We hate conservatives but fucking hate liberals."

How do puppets have sex?

165 Asylum Aleikum  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:34:42am

I think the U.S. should too apologize - for not dropping an A-bomb on Berlin 1945.

166 suleimanajic  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:36:30am

I sympathize with MartinG's wish not to be lumped in with the Nazis: I know I've about had my fill of LLL's whining about slavery in America. But he forgets that there are still living Germans who fought for Hitler and guarded the camps. When the last of them is dead - hopefully tomorrow - we can revisit his point.

Likewise, many of Hitler's victims are still alive. I almost wish bigel were here to provide a very vivid reminder of that. It's a tad... unrealistic to think they're ever going to forgive or forget - nor do I see why they should.

“Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it." -- George Santayana

167 Mar  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:37:47am

Anyhow back to the topic on hand, Great Britain has nothing to apologize to the Germans for nor did they.

There is a reason the German army tried to surrender to non-Russions forces. They knew what was coming.

168 Zaideh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:37:52am

#74 SELPAW
""Why can't YOU PEOPLE understand that many years have past now? It is time to simply get over it. We want to forget but 'you people' never seem to let go...!"

Good catch. When I read that I immediately took it as referring to LGFers and, more specifically, to me, personally.
Hmph, now that you point out the intended subliminal meaning of "you people", I can't help but feel like I've been complimented in an inadvertant, backhanded sorta way just like, on past occasions, I've been "insulted" (nyuck nyuck nyuck) by being called a "Jew-lover".

Thank you God, for my enemies. They are my moral barometer.

169 Rock  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:38:34am

#11 JHW:

When is Denmark going to apologize for the Viking invasion of Ireland?When is Italy going to apologize for the destruction of Carthage?

When is Denmark going to apologize to Germany for those work-stoppage demonstrations that hampered the German war effort and enabled the Allies to destroy Germany?

Last time my wife was in Denmark a few years ago, they still hated the Germans. There was a near-revolt over joining the same EU that Germany was in.

The EU has accomplished what Hitler could not --- Germany has finally unified Europe.

170 piglet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:40:37am
An eerie, detailed alternate history serves as the backdrop for this otherwise conventional crime thriller. The setting is Berlin, 1964, some 20 years after the Third Reich's victory in WW II. Germany and the U.S., the world's two superpowers, find themselves in a cold war resulting from a nuclear stalemate; but U.S. President Joseph P. Kennedy is soon to visit Berlin for an historic summit meeting with Hitler, clearing the way for detente. Meanwhile, cynical police detective Xavier March investigates the drowning of Josef Buhler, former state secretary in the General Government. When the Gestapo takes over the case--ruling it suicide--March continues his investigation at the risk of his life, uncovering a deadly conspiracy at the highest levels of the Reich. With the help of American reporter Charlotte Maguire, he finds hard evidence of the wartime extermination of Europe's Jews, a secret that Buhler and his colleagues have been murdered to protect.
171 SwampWoman  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:40:59am

#164 Mar

How do puppets have sex?

Oh, c'mon now, don't spoil the movie for me. I have to have SOME suspense goin' on.

172 Space Pirate  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:41:20am

I do not apologise for my uncle Paul killing Germans in WW2

I do not apologise for my uncle Norm a snipper killing Japs in WW2

The Germans and Japs do not deserve one for starting WW2

The next war that I'm in I will not apologise for turning the key to kill millions

173 applesweet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:45:17am

When you start seeing people like 'Bos' come crawling out of the woodwork, then you know what ever good effects of the efforts made to stop the rampant killing in WW2 has come to an end. You have to realize now we have a new generation who has no direct relationship with that war, therefore it's no longer relevant.
When people like 'Bos' come along, who have lived in a world of high technology ALL of their lives start these faux arguments, the shit is about to hit the fan again.
Then those who are still here, that were directly influenced by WW2 see this they know it's just a matter of timing and oppertunity before we see a new Hitler arise.

Personally I do believe what ever calamity they bring down on their heads they should have to bear the burden of the consequences on their own.

174 Havoc  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:45:26am

Lachish, Dresden, Fallujah - "There, but for the Grace of G_d, goes I"

It's important to keep Dresden in it's proper perspective, of how the decision was made.

Allied bombing alone was at the time NOT accomplishing it's goal of Crippling German industry, energy production and transportation. Some of the largest battles of WW II with the most horrofic deaths were fought in the skies.

Precision bombing was a myth even with the invention of the Norton Bomb Sight. Precision bombing 's use was largely theory being worked out with as many a 3,000 dead a day of very young men on each massive bombing Run.

To get Even Close to the industrial areas, caused in the early days a loss of at least 1 in 3 of every bomber with it's 10 man crew -- trying to destroy German armament factories, and industrial capacity. Some of the fiercest fighting of WW II happened in the skies.

Watch "The Memphis Belle" on DVD or VHS, it was a movie concieved & produced by the Daughter of a man on the Belle, one such crewman. Gut wrenching.

So after years of this kind of slaughter. A decision to "de-house" the German worker population was made. These kind of bombing runs over England had already been made in the Battle of Britian. So the firebombing of Dresden took place. (It was later done to Tokyo.) You can read what it was like in Dresden on that day in the Auto-biography of a boy who lived -- and later became the designated Steinway technician and piano tuner for Vladamir Horowitz, Franz Mohr, "My Life with the Great Pianists", Mohr by the way is a Christian and does not have anger or hatred towards the men who utterly vaporized in a firestorm a city with members of his family in it. It was absolutley horrific.

It's easy now for the LLL to go Braindead over it, and completely ignore the context and history of the decision even though some eyewitnesses still live among them. The men who actually did the bombing and the fighting and dying were largely without remorse, because of what they had previously endured.

Military strategist now admit that Dresden's destruction had little effect on the war's outcome. It's easy for us, in comfort and safety, to pontificate one way or the other.
"There, ...But for the grace of G-d, goes I" .

Never the less, I am reminded of a statement by Ray Vander Laan, Theologian, when describing the righteous jews who lived in a corrupted city of Lachish, 702 B.C., a fortress city and the southern gateway to attack Jerusalem. Lachish was utterly destroyed in the most horrific fashion by Assyrian King Sennecharib. He then went on to attack Jerasalem and would have succeded in destroying it too, except for a miracle.

and I paraphrase --

"G_d was patient, but when they turned to infant sacrifrice and would not repent, not cease, and killed the prophets sent to them, G_d finally judged them.

And when G_d judges A NATION, the innocent and righteous suffer and perish right along with the guilty."

Lachish, Dresden, Fallujah - "There, but for the Grace of G_d, goes I"

175 bos  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:46:11am

96 jrd and all,

The moral moron was Churchill, who believed in freedom for the British people but subservience (for example) for India under the British Empire. His ugly undemocratic POV led to such things as the Dresden Terror Bombing, and the English wisely rejected him soon after WW2. Empires be damned.

176 mksmash  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:47:16am

#164 Mar

I think it was Matt Stone that said ," We hate conservatives but fucking hate liberals."

From what I observed, that proportion is just about right, but at the end I got a sense of something else.
It seemed to me that there was a feeling that for all of America's bumbling hegimony, their (our?) effort is honorable.

Then again, it was a movie with puppets from the guys who created Southpark.

From what I was able to see, they have sex very woodenly.

mk

177 Rock  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:47:23am

The Queen has kneeled before the Kaiser.

The British Empire has never on the field of battle been laid so low as it was by the actions of a single, morally-weak "leader". We saw this with Chamerlain, but I never expected to see the spiritual heart of England's glory dishonor her countrymen like this.

178 piglet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:47:48am

[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

OT

MONTERREY, Mexico - It was the reporters who noticed first. Unable to call their editors while covering the weddings of the rich and famous, they asked the priest why their cell phones never worked at Sacred Heart. His reply: Israeli counterintelligence.

In four Monterrey churches, Israeli-made cell phone jammers the size of paperbacks have been tucked unobtrusively among paintings of the Madonna (news - web sites) and statues of the saints.

179 SwampWoman  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:49:06am

Checkin' out LGF with my new DSL server. (Goodbye, AOL!)

180 Rock  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:49:20am

When is England going to apologize to Czechoslovakia for ripping their country apart at Hitler's behest, turning over the people, farms, industry, and weapon factories to the Nazi war machine?

181 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:49:42am

#139 Gang of One

Where's Bigel when he's needed?!

We don't need his hate here at any time. He is as bad as they are, just from the other side.

182 Rock  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:52:02am
We will not capitulate - no, never! We may be destroyed, but if we are, we shall drag a world with us - a world in flames.
- Adolf Hitler

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

183 mich-again  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:53:01am

Next I assume the roadrunner is going to apologize to Wile E. Coyote for making such a fool of him all these years.

184 piglet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:53:04am

BOS as I posted the numbers, even the most extreme estimates of Dresen dead are still 100,000 or less. Are you saying that both hiroshima and Nagasaki killed less than 100,000 people, or where you intentionally lying about dresden?

185 Right Wing Nutt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:53:21am

On "Team America"...lady reviewed it on MSNBC this morning, said it wasn't that funny and should wait till video comes out...

I translated that to mean its hilarious and helps W, so wait till after you vote if you must see it.

186 Claudia  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:54:48am

#73 Paco from Sefarad,

Franco veteran to join war parade

Considering that King Juan Carlos would not be king were it not for Franco...
C.

187 LSD  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:58:19am

I think we AMERICANS need a few reminder from the past:

The words of
Samuel Adams:

"The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil Constitution, are worth defending at all hazards;and it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have received them as a fair inheritance from our worthy ancestors: they purchased them for us with toil and danger and expense of treasure and blood,and transmitted them to us with care and diligence.
It will bring an ever lasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or to be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men."

188 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:59:27am

#175 bos

So your point is that we fought the wrong dictator? We shoulda been fighting Churchill instead of Hitler?

Careful, people - we have an effin' genius in our midst.

189 JohnSteele  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:59:49am

#119 bos
98 John,

I guess one of those smiley things would've indicated a tongue in cheek. However by the end you yourself are horse-trading -- you are saying because of Nazis' collective punishment of Coventry, the collective punishment of Dresden was okay? Tit-for-tat means no war crime? We are talking about hundreds of thousands of dead civilians here.

We are not talking about 'collective punishment' for several reasons. First that concept did not come into existence until well after the war ended. Second, 'collective punishment' was intended to address situations such as the one you cited at Lidice; I seriously doubt that anyone involved in composing the Geneva Convention was thinking in terms of Dresden or Coventry as 'collective punishment.'

I will say that again for effect: Coventry was not an example of 'collective punishment', it might have been an act of barbarity, but it was not in punishment for anything; it was a concerted effort by the Germans to break the will of the English civilian population; to raise the level of 'pain' to a point where people would be unwilling to go on with the war.

I think the general post-war view is that what was called 'strategic' bombing was generally ineffective for several reasons: it does not appear to have broken the civilian will on either side; it was inefficient given that enormous amounts of ordnance were used to little military value; crew and aircraft losses simply did not match up with the military effect of the damage.

In 'modern' warfare we employ precision weapons not only because they cause less collateral damage and civilian casualties, but they are simply more cost-effective. Today it takes one airplane to drop one bomb on one target and have a very high probability of causing militarily significant damage to the enemy. The gratuitous civilian deaths of previous warfare accomplish nothing militarily, and in fact provide the anti-war crowd with ammunition that the war is wrong.

190 Old Fart 43  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:59:58am

Folks, I don't really blame the Germans of today for what took place 60+ years ago and they are right we souldn't - but we SHOULD NOT let them forget it and we SHOULD NOT apologize because the generations today did not start the war nor did we bomb Germany.

191 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:00:53am

OT

Targeted Christians talk of leaving Iraq

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Explosions that damaged five churches in Baghdad have prompted some Christians to wonder whether it's time to leave their ancient homeland.

"If they don't want us in Iraq, let them say it and we will leave," said Samir Hermiz, 40, standing next to a church that was reduced to ashes. "I'm really thinking of leaving Iraq."

The series of explosions which began at 4 a.m. (2 a.m. British time) on Saturday caused no casualties but they further unnerved Christians already shaken by coordinated church bombings that killed 11 people in Baghdad and the northern city of Mosul in August.

192 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:01:02am
193 RightIsRight  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:02:43am

bos = bag o' shit

194 joel2  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:03:46am

Couple things OT...

Saw Team America last night... Hilarious. But the best part of the film was it's message. Trust me - it hits our foreign policy on the nail!

2nd, did anyone else just watch the live webcast of the President's speech? Gawd he such a different guy on the trail than in front of a camera. No wonder they MSM tries to keep the clips from the trail off the screen. Lurch would be 20 points down, and I don't think I'm exagerating.

195 LSD  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:04:49am

In the minds of the "Intellectual"- WAR is just a misunderstanding on Both Sides.

Sick fucking philosophy.

Let me put my hands around your throat, and then we'll see about a "misunderstanding".

196 Zaideh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:04:53am

#164 MAR
"I think it was Matt Stone that said ," We hate conservatives but fucking hate liberals."

Close.
"We DON'T LIKE conservatives but we fucking hate liberals."

197 piglet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:05:29am

Germany did not attack the US. Instead of dealing with Tojo who actually attacked Pearl Harbor, we launched an illegal and unnecessary war in europe. Hitler had no nuclear weapons, and Heisenberg even offered thru Bohr to prevent their development in Germany if the US would do the same./ LLL arguement if MIchael Moore was timeshifted to may, 1945

198 sunny  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:07:46am

joel2

Saw Team America last night... Hilarious. But the best part of the film was it's message. Trust me - it hits our foreign policy on the nail!

If d*cks, p*ssies, and as*holes didn't describe perfectly how the world is I don't know what does. Not to mention freedom isn't free "it costs a buck O' five."

SP the movie was better, but I laughed my ass of at this

199 Mar  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:10:02am

175 bos,

I'd like to ask you if you are joking but fear you are serious.

You seem to be unware the the English voted Churchill back in in 1957 and that England was in India long before Churchill was around.

He was a giant and one of the greatest figures of the last century. You, I am afraid, are a mental pygmy.

200 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:10:14am

#192 Iron Fist

I'm sitting here rubbing my eyes in disbelief.

bos calls Churchill a "moral moron", calls Dresden a "war crime", etc.

But not a word about Hitler.

I knew bos was an idiot and a troll, but I didn't know he was a Nazi-symp to boot.

201 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:13:48am

#191 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Silly, don't you realize that this is just a requisite part of observing ramadamn? Thank G-d they didn't hurt anyone. That is a miracle.

There are about 28 or so days left for them to fulfill their obligations to blow up Christians and Jews...the Churches and Synagogues are considered collateral damage.

How many arab countries have managed to chase the Jews and Christians out? Does anyone have a count?

Too bad we can't do the same to the cult of islam, as they spread their virus within our countries.

It took the nazis much longer to annihilate millions...but then there was a limit to the time they were able to.

202 joel2  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:13:48am

Sunny,

Yep. Never did see SP the movie, and I could barely stand the overboard crassness in Team America, but I will say right here, right now that I'd rather be a d**k than a p***y, ANYDAY! America! F**k yeah!

203 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:13:59am
204 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:14:48am
205 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:14:56am

#189 JohnSteele

In 'modern' warfare we employ precision weapons not only because they cause less collateral damage and civilian casualties, but they are simply more cost-effective. Today it takes one airplane to drop one bomb on one target and have a very high probability of causing militarily significant damage to the enemy. The gratuitous civilian deaths of previous warfare accomplish nothing militarily, and in fact provide the anti-war crowd with ammunition that the war is wrong.

Keep in mind that nations make war, not their armies. The people grow the food, build the weapons and pay the taxes that support the army. Disrupt the nation and the army can’t fight.

206 Mar  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:15:01am

Bos,

Do you admire David Irving? You are repeating the same charges he has made against Churchill.

207 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:15:59am
208 manofaiki  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:17:32am

No one from a civilized country wants to see it's military intentionally kill a lot of civilians in a hostile state.

But during WWII, it was sometimes necessary.

Still, it must be pointed out that in the European theater, the allies never bombed cities just to bomb cities and kill lots of civilians; the one raid where that did seem to happen, and it killed thousands of civilians, stood out.

That was Dresden.

The fires caused by the raid were intense, and because he later could not justify a military target for the raid, the British Air Marshall who ordered the raid carried out was never accorded the same professional courtesies of the other victorious allied generals. That was called the Peerage, and this gentleman was never invited to join.

I seem to remember total deaths from the Dresden raid as being in the thousands, not the 650 listed in the article.

The Dresden raid stands out because it was so unusual. The vast majority of the Allied bombing raids on Germany had a military target in mind. Civilian deaths were incidental; not the main goal of the raids.

It must also be pointed out that the German people were not hostages in their own country; they voted Hitler into power and the majority of them helped foist the Nazis on the rest of Europe.

I'm sure by the time 1945 rolled around, the majority of the German civilian population no longer supported Hitler as enthusiastically as they did at the start of the War, but it was too late then.

Aside from Dresden, I am aware of no raid in which an Allied General said, "Hey, let's bomb this city simply to kill lots of civilians!"

That is, I'm aware of no such raid IN THE EUROPEAN THEATER. Japan? That's a whole other ball game.

In Japan, the Allies DID deliberately bomb cities solely to kill as many civilians as possible.

If there is anybody we should apoligize to, we should apoligize to the Japanese, not the Germans.

I think we very likely killed more Japanese civilians on purpose just with our atomic strikes than we accidently killed German civilians with our conventional bombs.

A student of WWII, I am often struck by the racial overtones of the double standard these tactics display.

Would America have used 3 atomic bombs on Germany? Germany is full of white people. They looked like us.

I think it was far easier to atomize Japanese civilians because they didn't look like us. While in Germany we were against 'Nazis', a political leadership and not the German population, America used a lot of propaganda with direct racial overtones against the Japanese. We weren't just fighting the Emperor and his cronies; we were fighting 'slant eyed gooks' and the 'yellow horde'.

I am not saying the atomic strikes weren't necessary, or that it didn't end the war quickly and very likely save American and Japanese lives in the long run; it very likely did. America and her allies having to invade the Japanese mainland would have led to hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions more, of civilian deaths.

Still, it was deliberately killing civilians, and the fact that they were of another race made it far easier for America to justify it, whereas we would have struggled more with the idea of killing hundreds of thousands of Germans with a A-bomb.

Today I consider it a true testimony to the the adaptability and adherence to true principles of freedom and liberty that America is a friend and ally of the nation of Japan, which it freely helped to rebuild and welcome back into the family of nations.

Same thing with Germany. America is the only country in the history of the world that conquers another country...and then leaves it freer and more prosperous than when it found it.

manofaiki

209 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:18:11am
210 T. Jefferson  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:19:55am

This is the kind of attitude that makes me proud to be an American.

Soldier who lost leg in Iraq war determined to get back to fight.


On Sept. 14, 2003, Perez, of Carteret, N.J., and seven other members of his squad were rumbling down a road outside Fallujah when a bomb blast rocked their Humvee. Perez recalls flying through the air and hitting the ground hard.

The blast killed one of Perez's comrades. Perez felt surprisingly little pain, but when he tried to get up, he couldn't.

When he looked to see what was wrong, he saw that his left foot was folded backward onto his knee. His size-12 1/2 combat boot stood in the dusty road a few feet away, still laced...

He's one of at least four amputees from the elite 82nd Airborne Division to re-enlist. With his new carbon-fiber prosthetic leg, Perez intends to show a medical board he can run an eight-minute mile, jump out of airplanes and pass all the other paratrooper tests that will allow him to go with his regiment to Afghanistan sometime next year.

"I'm not ready to get out yet," he says. "I'm not going to let this little injury stop me from what I want to do."

211 sunny  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:21:02am

joel2

Did you just laugh your ass off during the puppet "love" scene. My wife couldn't breathe after that.

And yes better to be a D**K.

212 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:21:16am
213 baba  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:21:39am

my heart bleeding for poor german nazis

214 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:22:21am
215 Zaideh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:24:37am

#201 NYNana
"How many arab countries have managed to chase the Jews and Christians out?"

Expand the scope of your question by removing the word "arab" (NO caps!) and dive into a good History book. I think you'll conclude, as I have, that when the last Jew leaves a country, that country is F***ed!
Ascribe this, secularly, as loss of talent or, religiously, as the wrath of God.
Either way, it appears to be a very consistent pattern from the very beginning.

216 joel2  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:25:57am

Sunny,

To be honest, knowing that scene was in there almost kept me from going to see the film. As well, I most certainly could have done without the "prove your loyalty to the team" scene. Gaaawwwd! I'm sorry - there is nothing like being humiliated like that.

So, no, I didn't really laugh at that scene. Sex humor in movies and television lost it's funniness, oh, about 25 years ago when everything had already been done. I just don't find that stuff funny, anymore. There is nothing original about it...

217 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:26:59am
218 h-town  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:28:28am

#175 bos

Empires be damned

That one sentence just explained a whole helluva lot.

Thanks bos

219 Renna  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:28:37am

OT - Family Circle First Lady cookie bakeoff results are in.

67% voted for Laura Bush. But as many of you know, this years event didn't go smoothly. Heinz Kerry's first entry was tested by Family Circle and they asked her to submit another one.

Unlike other years where only the readers voted, this year several morning and news shows baked both cookies and had their "experts" declare the winner. The write-up in FC gives only one example, spending muchof the article quoting one food critic who thought Teresa's recipe "broke the mold."

Then, 'scandal' erupted when on July 23rd, Heinz Kerry disowned the pumpkin cookies on NPR. Said it wasn't hers.

So far, the cookie contest has predicted the winner in the last three presidential elections

220 adamthemadman  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:31:32am

#68 myocarditis
Well, since no one else is going to reply, I might as well.

I don't see what the fuss is about. As has been pointed out, the British ambassador never apologized for the carpet bombing per se, and the Germans never asked for an apology.


The man said the bombing is unexplainable. Not just unfortunate, but unexplainable. I don't think we need to play word games to understand the strange position the ambassador was affecting. I think what most people here find appalling is his implicit mea culpa. The bombings were, without a fucking doubt, explainable. There is nothing to gain by a government official calling his own government's actions during a dire fight "unexplainable." Governments should not be in the sympathy trade especially when it involves war.

This current mode exemplified by Clinton's "I feel your pain" is proof of a certain decadence in our democracies. It's simply not enough for Western governments to defend their citizens anymore. They must mince about, shedding tears at the drop of a hat, and apologize for existing.

Reconstruction of the church is fine and good. I have no problem with the UK rebuilding a cultural institution. However, I and a few of the other lizards are pissed off at the fact that the ambassador feels it necessary to don a tragedy mask to help with the reconstruction. (Side comments: 1.It's almost been 50 years since the end of the war. What the hell were the residents of Dresden waiting for anyway? 2. Irony lives: Church attendance in the EU is at an all time low. What timing.)

After all, a key lesson from the past that many Germans take (and living in Europe, I know more than a few) is that sending troops to a foreign country that has caused them no harm is...how should i put it...verboten.

Myo, if that is the lesson they have learned, then we have a problem. If the lesson they have learned is to not be involved with other peoples' wars, then there is a good chance they will be taken unwillingly to the classroom again. The lesson that we learned was it is not enough to want peace. Peace cannot be exchanged for an acceptance of evil without consequences. The good people of Dresden and Germany accepted an evil in their midst. And the good people of Germany and many other countries have done the same in the face of Saddam and other tyrants, terrorists, and monster around the globe.

A good examination of the zealous German character flipping between support for the Reich to the current "peace at all costs" vein is found in Ian Buruma's The Wages of Guilt: Memories of War in Germany and Japan An awesome book that kind of predicted the EUnuchs' current obstinacy. It is one of my top ten non-fiction books. ( I turn into Salieri every time I read one of Ian's books. )

221 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:32:15am

#208 manofaiki

Dresden was fire-bombed for, IIRC, two reasons:

1. Scare the shit out of Stalin.
2. Kill factory workers (the whole basis for 'total war': destroy the enemy's capability to wage war)

Incidentally, I partially agree about the double-standard. Nuking Berlin would have been fair enough.

#217 bigel

Now, they have reprinted much of Carol Gould's article from Frontpagemag (although they did leave out the part about the frothing Nazi Jewhating shopkeeper).

I think they left out the stuff about the Guardian feeding Jew-hatred, too.

222 eeevil conservative  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:34:36am

UNBELIEVABLE!!!

How can we explain that such a beautiful and historical city as Brunswick became the target of attacks from the air?”

1) We explain it with pictures of the the concentration camps.

2) We explain it with pictures of the devastated cities that Hitler invaded.

3) We explain it by showing a list of those innocent families killed for the crime of being Jewish.

4) We explain it by giving them all a copy of Ann Franke"s diary.

Then we wait for them to apologize for letting Hitler take over their country, especially when they were well aware of the man's agenda, thanks to "Mien Kampf!"

Then we accept their apology and ask them that if they really do HATE what Hitler did, then why do they support keeping SADDAM in power to do them same thing??

I mean, it is actually VERY SIMPLE to "EXPLAIN!"

OY!

This really BURNS my TOAST!!!

223 Orbit Rain  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:35:32am
Germans feel they should no longer be judged against the yardstick of Hitler’s crimes

Well first, it's ignorant of them to keep assuming that we are "judging them by the yardstick of Hitler" Fucking please people (directed at Germans)

Get off that schtick

Second,

I forget what second is.

224 Renna  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:36:15am

bigel

Having said that, I do think the A-bombs should have been used on Berlin and Munich instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

IIRC, that was the original plan of sorts but the war in Europe was over before the bombs were ready.

225 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:36:18am

#208 manofaiki

No one from a civilized country wants to see it's military intentionally kill a lot of civilians in a hostile state.

Why not? They are the ones supporting the army.

I think we very likely killed more Japanese civilians on purpose just with our atomic strikes than we accidently killed German civilians with our conventional bombs.

We killed twice as many with our fire bomb raids as we did with the nukes.

Still, it was deliberately killing civilians, and the fact that they were of another race made it far easier for America to justify it, whereas we would have struggled more with the idea of killing hundreds of thousands of Germans with a A-bom

I don't think so. If we would of had the nuclear weapons in time we would have used them.

Nations make war. If you don't defeat the nation, they will keep building armies. Look at Russia, they lost 20 million people and were still fighting. The only way to defeat them was to kill so many they could not fight, or to remove the leadership.

226 Zaideh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:41:25am

#205 [Engineer]
"Keep in mind that nations make war, not their armies. The people grow the food, build the weapons and pay the taxes that support the army. Disrupt the nation and the army can’t fight."

The history of warfare (Deseversky, Von Clausewitz, SunTzu, et al) teaches that attacks directed against civilians is counterproductive.
Not because it isn't "nice" but because it stiffens the resolve of those already opposed to the attacker and actually can turn formerly uncommitted possible supporters against them too.
The objective of an attacking military should be to demoralize the population and to turn them, if possible, against their own leaders. You don't achieve that objective by validating their leaders claims.
Disrupting the nation is an important aim in depriving the enemy of the means or desire to wage war but it needs to be done, if at all possible, with minimum unnecessary collateral damage that we will later have to explain & undo.
Incidentally, that's what Gen. Curt Lemay was advocating when he made his recommendation to bomb Viet Nam "...back into the Stone Age."
He wanted to attack the key installations that supported their infrastructure: bridges, powerplants, highways, railheads, etc.
The LLL took his statement and twisted it to make him seem to be a genocidal maniac.

227 cba  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:41:49am

OT--request to the lizardoid research department:

Today's local paper quoted Gwynne Dyer {spit} as saying (as he has on other occasions) that "fewer than 1,000 people have died in terrorist attacks worldwide in the last thee years."

I'm sure that's not accurate--just Bali, Madrid, Beslan, and the Moscow theatre attack have to bring the total pretty close to 1,000. Can anyone point me in the direction of some solid statistics? I'd love to be able to refute him by quoting chapter and verse.

TIA.

228 zonekeeper  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:42:05am

Anyone seen the flash on Drudge? Bush 50%, Kerry 44%, Nader 1%. Isn't there something magical about the 50% mark?

229 applesweet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:43:13am

I think you could correctly call 'Bos' part of the remnant we're having to deal with today. Al-Qaeda + Muslim Brotherhood = WW2 Arab SS troops.

230 American Infidel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:43:20am
231 Smartalice  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:44:51am

Reminds me of John Prine's "Fish and Whistle":

Father forgive us for what we must do
You forgive us we’ll forgive you
We’ll forgive each other till we both turn blue
Then we’ll whistle and go fishing in heaven.

232 Mar  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:45:07am

227 cba,

Gwynne Dyer as turned into a total nut. I bet he hasn't inlcuded Israeli's in that.

What paper does he have a column in?

haven't seen one of his in the NP.

233 Zaideh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:48:47am

#232 Mar
"I bet he hasn't inlcuded Israeli's in that."

Jews don't count.
They're the "opppressors".
/LLL

234 eeevil conservative  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:49:15am
Germans feel they should no longer be judged against the yardstick of Hitler’s crimes

This reminds me of a man caught having an affair. He doesn't plead for forgiveness, instead he gets mad because his wife left him. Years later, they reconcile, and doesn't understand why she doesn't trust him. Well, she shouldn't reconcile if whe can't trust him, but then again, when the man continues to talk to or work with the same woman he had the affiar with, how does she STOP "measuring" him by that cheating relationship, if he refuses to GIVE UP THE RELATIONSHIP?

My husband once stole a check from my checkbook (My checkbook for the business I owned.) I left him, of course. FOund out I was pregnant and gave him another chance. Then he stole another check, forged it, and wondered why I accused him of not changing! He couldn't figure out why I crought up the first offense! Then cried victim of unforgiveness when I left him again!

Sorry for sharing soo much, but the analogy seems to fit perfect in this case!

235 Spiritualized  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:50:34am

The blame for every single last casualty, civillian or soldier, rests firmly at the door of Hitler himself. End of story.

As for Churchill, he's a war hero, and I imagine he's spinning in his grave watching his country slowly sink down the PC sewer.

Rules of War Enable Terror - Dershowitz:

The war by terrorists against democracies has changed all this. Terrorists who do not care about the laws of warfare target innocent noncombatants. Indeed, their goal is to maximize the number of deaths and injuries among the most vulnerable civilians, such as children, women and the elderly. They employ suicide bombers who cannot be deterred by the threat of death or imprisonment because they are brainwashed to believe that their reward awaits them in another world. They have no "return address.

(...)

Whenever a civilian is accidentally killed or an ambulance is held up at a checkpoint, the terrorist leaders, and those who support them, have exploited the post-World War II laws of warfare to condemn the democracies for violating the letter of the law. Some human rights groups, international organizations and churches have joined this chorus of condemnation, equating the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians by terrorists with the unintended consequences of trying to combat terrorism -- unintended by the democracies, but quite specifically intended, indeed provoked by, the terrorists.

This only encourages more terrorism, since the terrorists receive a double benefit from their actions. First they benefit from killing "enemy" civilians. Second, they benefit from the condemnation heaped on their enemies. Human rights are thus being used to promote human wrongs.

236 Victor  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:52:42am

#174 Havoc


Fine, fine post. Thanks.

237 eeevil conservative  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:52:49am

#235 Spiritualized

WELL PUT!

238 Rock  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:54:07am

Regarding Team America:

"America --- F**K YEAH!!"

That 'bout says it all. ;)

I loved Hans Blix's statement about what would happen if Kim Jong Il refused to allow him to inspect...

Also, if you want to see Michael Moore, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Sean Penn, and many other members of the Film Actors Guild (FAG --- "When the world is a better place, thank a FAG") emphasize "this is a PEACE conference!" as they shoot at the Americans --- well, touché to Trey and Matt.

And did anyone else blow soda out of their nose when Gary came out of "plastic" surgery that was supposed to make him look like an Arab? "My God. The resemblance is uncanny!" Plastic surgery with a Bic lighter!

BWAHAHAHAHA!

(And yes, this is an incredibly vile and disgusting film, and we laughed our asses off the entire time)

We estimate they spent approximately $43.26 in making this movie, and it's worth every damn penny. :)

239 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:57:19am

First, it is appropriate to start this approach with an apology: I am sorry the allies did not have the Bomb until 1945.

Bos- you are moral miracle- it goes like this. Hitler launched a war, unlike any that has ever been seen, in 1939. His regime was evil incarnate and the intention of his regime was global conquest and the imposition of his ways on the world.

I don't care what the Allies did to win the war because they had to win the war. The war was fought by the allies to win. Victory was the ONLY consideration. There was no micromanagment of the morality of particular decisions; tens of thousands of allied soldiers died from friendly fire and criminal stupidity. But we had to win.

The Germans put up a hell of a fight and fought until thei beloved Hitler was dead (and oh how they loved him and oh how many of them love him to this day- go to a hofbrau haus on any April 20th and you might begin to understand- I am assuming you don't know that Hitler's birthday is April 20). Only then did they quit. Nothing else made them stop. They were strategically defeated; they kept fighting for Hitler. Their cities were destroyed; they kept fighting for Hitler. The allies pressed in and defeat was certain; they kept fighting for Hitler.

The suffering of the Germans in their cities was more than reasonanble- precision bombing did not exist the bombing was done to demoralize, destroy and degrade Germany. Every rail car blown up was less transport, every damaged factory (note German war product reached its peak in 1944- despite allied bombing!)

So when Israel or anyone shoots a rocket into a Hamasnik's car, the target is the barbarian and his arsenal. If those around the barbarian are killed or injured, too bad, the target was legitimate and the results justified. It is the same moral decision. War and actions in war are justified by who is fighting and what they are fighting for. Fighting for self defense and democracy trumps all other causes. The Germans as illustrated above were not fighting for self defense, they were fighting for Hitler.

In post modern deconstructionist terms, leftists can't get their brains around the idea that Hitler's Germany had to smashed by any means. They especially do not enjoy having their noses rubbed in the fact that Germany would never have attacked Poland without the Molotov von Ribbentrop pact and that the left boycotted France when she was invaded in 1940. At the darkest period of human history; the left helped Hitler. So it is that post-war, it is needed to tarnish the allied victory for the relatively few allied excesses because otherwise attention would turn to the disgraceful shame of the left during the war.

Only after June 1941 did Hitler become the bad guy. It's your baggage Bos-carry it! Those are the dirty bedlinen of your intellectual fellow travelers you sleep on the most uncleanable wetspot of human history.

You have no high horse from which to judge the allied leaders- you dare to question the decisions of the Allied high command when Hitler almost fought the Allies to a draw in 1944? If Patton hadn't turned north in time... if the Soviet army had gotten bogged down in Western Poland ... if Hitler's scientists ahd finished their super-weapons on time, New York and Detroit would have been hit. He had 30 know U-Boats and super topedos on the drawing boards and a continuous converyer system cremetorium on the boards. Me I toast Ike, Bomber Harris, Monty, Patton, Omar, Chuikov and Zhukov every V-E day- I am free and alive because of them and they are my heroes.

Finally, no German seems to be recall seeing any sign of the Holocaust yet 90% of all Germans lived within a few miles of a concentration camp.

I read this post and wonder why I even bother arguing...

240 joel2  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:00:58am

Yes, Rock, The certainly made fun of the UN appropriately with the Hans Blix line. Interestingly enough, I watched it in downtown Seattle at a sould out showing and the audience laughed their a**es off at Blix's line, too. I WAS SHOCKED! Yet, during the remainder of the film, I was saddly the only one laughing at most of the funny parts.

241 Davidslott  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:01:41am

Well, great, a concensus that the Nazis were bad. How insightful.

My father in law spent nearly four years in a Japanese prison camp--several camps, actually. His last stop before liberation was close enough to Hiroshima to hear the explosion and see the mushroom cloud.

My former landlord was a navigator on a B-29. He said you could smell the human cooking flesh in the firebombings five miles up and fifty miles away.

My father was armament officer for a USAAF fighter squadron. One of his jobs was to review the gun camera films, and sometimes the films were very disturbing.

None of these fine men felt took any satisfaction in what befell civilians in Japanese and German cities. To the contrary, they felt compassion, sorrow and regret.

Was one of the goals of the bombing to spread terror and fear among the population? Of course--in fact that was the explicit rationale of the atomic bomb, to be so fearsome that it demoralized and demanded surrender.

Apologize? No. We were in a ferocious fight for survival that cost half a million American lives, and tens of millions throughout the world.

War crimes? No again. Leave that to the look back moralists who can second guess anything to make themselves feel superior.

But stop being arm chair Attillas, at least some of you, and recognize that war involves a slaughter of the innocents on all sides, and that always should be acknowledged with deep sorrow and regret.

242 Rock  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:02:00am

Also on Team America:

Sean Penn's comment in protest of the War on Terror: "I visited Iraq last year, and before the Americans came it was a peaceful place, a land of grassy meadows and rainbows and rivers of chocolate."

Jeez, Reneé and I were in tears!

There is gratuitous sex between puppets --- the movie almost got a NC-17 rating --- and the "prove your loyalty" part was completely uncalled for, but apart from those the movie was a must-see for every lizard-brained human!

And yes, Reneé applauded loudly when the Eiffel Tower was the subject of some good ol' 'murican whup-ass.

243 JAB  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:02:33am

#109 Engineer,

You might also mention to bos that the vast majority of creditable historians -- not revisionist -- agree that somewhere between 25,000 and 40,000 people died during the bombing of Dresden, far less than at either Nagasaki or Hiroshima.

You might also mention that Dresden was only one of many cities that suffered the same fate during the closing days of WWII. Hamburg, for example, suffered a much worse fate with over 100,000 dead.

You might also mention that Dresden was indeed a legitimate military target at the time. Modern revisionist like to pretend it was nothing but a civilian target which is not true. Nevertheless, the question remains if Dresden was of "significant" value as a military target to warrant such attack. Such are the decisions of war. And those decisions were forced upon mortal men who did not initially seek that responsibility before Hitler began invading Europe. If bos wants to blame someone, the name on the indictment is A. Hiltler and Company.

And by the way, as you are aware Fallujah has nothing to do with Dresden. Too bad bos is so confused.

244 XanaX  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:03:28am

Boy, that World War II really was a "nuisance," eh?

245 applesweet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:04:37am

Human rightists are barrow wights. They are also human shields for the terrorists. What applies to the victims does NOT apply to the terrorists. If they are caught using fire trucks, ambulances, taxis or baby carriages the victims have NO right to stop them. If the victim apprehends or stops any of these vehicles and saves lives from the destruction carried in said vehicles they've broken the entent and letter of the 'law'. While all of the time this is being presecuted the terrorists continue outside the premise of law or what is considered civilized.
Until the victims finally get enough and stand up showing some conjones by getting into the faces of those who enable, aid and abet the terrorists it will not stop.

246 Victor  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:08:27am

#197 Piglet

"Germany did not attack the US. Instead of dealing with Tojo who actually attacked Pearl Harbor, we launched an illegal and unnecessary war in europe... LLL arguement if MIchael Moore was timeshifted to may, 1945"

Absolutely! -- Japan attacks us, Hitler did nothing, and we then attack freaking Tunisia?!?! We need to apologize, big time.

247 selpaw  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:09:43am

#168 Zaideh

moral barometer

There you go! NU? Look what I did for you...already
{hand jestures included}

Nice bumping into you ; -)) Our paths have not crossed in quite a while. Hope you are well.

248 levi from queens  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:11:45am

Without reading the whole thread:

Bomber Harris, the head of the RAF, was the only head of service in the British Empire not to be knighted after WWII. How could this be when, "never has so much been done for so many by so few.?"

Harris ignored Churchill's orders to bomb the rail lines which would have saved hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of Jews. The bombing of Dresden accomplished nothing towards either beating the Nazis or curbing their savagery.

With the exception of the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there is no example of bombing civilian populations which has ever been militarily effective.

I think mistakes have to be recognized. The bombing of the civilian population of Germany accomplished little and cost much.

The definition of terrorism is the commission of acts of war upon a civilian population. Squaring this with the strategic bombing of WWII leaves you where?

249 Robert Schwartz  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:12:47am

There was an influential Banker here in Columbus, Oh who was raising money to rebuild the Dresden’s Frauenkirche. My attitude was that I would contribute to that after the Germans rebuilt every syagouge in Europe.

250 cba  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:12:56am

#232 Mar:
I'm bloody certain he didn't include Israelis, but nevertheless even without Israelis I'm sure it's more than that. How many bombings have there been in Pakistan, for example?

This wasn't a column--it was a report of a conference that's being held at the University of Winnipeg. Although the Winnipeg Free Press does occasionally print a column of his.

He was here about a month ago talking to high school students. He told one group [paraphrasing]: "There are currently two groups who want to reshape the world violently: Al-Qaida and about 200 neoconservatives who control the American government." Protocols of the Elders of Zion, anyone?

Makes me want to spew. That's why I always refer to him as "Gwynne Dyer {spit}." And CBC still treats him like God.

251 trolldisliker  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:13:55am

#105 Geepers What an absolutely cool picture. Would that everyone in U.S could see it and learn.

252 cba  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:14:35am

I'll be back here later, in the hopes that some lizards will have some statistics for me about victims of terrorism over the last three years.

253 Spiritualized  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:17:45am

bos:

Empires be damned.

Have you noticed how hysterical lefties completely ignore the Islamic empire which stretches from Morocco, through the Horn of Africa and across the Middle East to Oman. 23 states, over 14 million sq km.

They also conveniently ignore the fact that this empire is currently responsible for around 90% of the world's current conflicts.

254 piglet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:20:36am

From Dresdens official website (which tolls the daed as 25,000)

The November Revolution in 1918 also forced King Friedrich August III to abdicate. The Free State of Saxony was formed. The relative political stability in the second half of the 1920s once more brought forth notable architectural and cultural achievements.

Otto Dix and Oskar Kokoschka were important teachers at the Dresden Art Academy, and Mary Wigman and Gret Palucca established their European style of free dance in Dresden. The German Hygiene Museum was opened in 1930.

The assumption of power by the National Socialists in 1933, however, put an end to the progressive cultural traditions in the city. The brutal suppression of all political opposition culminated in the mishandling and finally the deportation of the Jewish citizens of Dresden.

Writer Victor Klemperer recorded their fate in his famous diaries.




Mishandling? Must be a poor translation :-(

[Link: www.dresden.de...]

Could bos have been reading Slaughterhouse five?

"You guys burnt the place down, turned it into a single column of flame. More people died there in the firestorm, in that one big flame, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr
255 PostalWorker  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:21:38am

I'm totally sorry about the bombings in Germany. We didn't bomb them soon enough or hard enough. For that I am truely sorry.

256 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:22:19am

If the Germans wish to blame anyone, let them blame the Nazi regime together with the tens of millions of collaborators for engaging in such a very wicked war in the first place.

And if the Germans do not wish to feel guilty about their past any longer, let them also not feel proud. To blow their trumpets about the glories of Beethoven and Goethe and Bavaria, while ignoring the vileness of Mengele, Hitler and Auschwitz would be rather too much to bear.

Mind you, it's also about time many other countries in Europe accepted their fair share of the blame for what went on.

257 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:24:54am

Once the Germans purposely bombed non-military targets in Germany, the rules are out the window, IMHO. The V-1 and V-2 attacks were still going on when these raids happened, no?

If the bombing of Dresden shortened the war by one day and saved one allied soldier, than I'm all for it.


If we had hit Fallujah hard the way we should have, the terrorists and Ba'athists might have learned a lesson, and in the long run US and Iraqi lives would be saved.


BTW, I don't think today's Germans, born after the war, should feel any guilt for Hitler, but they should always remember who is was and what he did as a warning against repeating it. I also don't think the Allies have a single thing to apologize for in winning the war against Germany and Japan.

258 piglet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:26:26am
Dresden's reputation for culture is better known than it's highly developed optics industry (Carl-Zeiss, later Praktika) which produced precision aiming devices during the war. In addition many peace time factories, such as the cigarette factories had been converted to ammunition factories as part of the policy of "Total War". However these targets were not the main reason for the city being bombed. The Russians were approaching from the East and Dresden was one of two key Rail Routes with Marshalling Yards. Although key industrial facilities were destroyed by the bombing(much of their capacity was later restored), the main goal of the "area bombing" was to create a fire storm (an objective inspired by Luftwaffe's raids on Coventry, Bath and London but refined by the Britain's Royal Air Force). Civilian death estimates vary wildly largely as a result of propoganda figures which received widespread publicity at the time, however the most recently available evidence points to 25,000-40,000 deaths which is less than the number that died in Hamburg but Dresden was a smaller city.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

259 eeevil conservative  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:27:35am
260 dustyroadguy  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:27:39am

I think that as astute consverative-moderate folks here we need to rest the word 'apology' from the L(cubed).

It is another in a long list of words whose meaning is completely distorted today. I for one am a proud 'apologist' for the right to kick the hell out of anyone one or nation that presumes to carry out genocide, expand borders by force or coercion, or use terrorism as a political tool.

to be an 'apologist' means to:

'defend or justify an action or something: somebody who argues to defend or justify a particular doctrine or ideology.'

so I for one am always willing to 'apoligize' for nuking japan and bombing the hell out of Nazi Germany...the only thing to regret is that WE DIDN"T DO IT SOONER AND MORE VIOLENTLY>...

hopefully we well not make the same misatke with Iran and the rest of the Islamofacist regimes...

This is my apology...DRG

261 Spiritualized  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:28:08am

cba

The Religion of Peace

That's a pretty comprehensive list of every Islamic terrorist attack since 9/11. The LLL may choose to ignore the attacks against Israel and those in Iraq, but even without those there is still hundreds of incidents.

262 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:29:25am

#248 levi from queens

The definition of terrorism is the commission of acts of war upon a civilian population.

No it is not:

—The term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.-Title 22 of the US Code, Section 2656f(d)

When a state does it, it is war, not terrorism.

263 KWH  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:30:47am

I'm sorry for living and breathing, eating and sleeping. Maybe we all should drink the "koolaid" and sleep the big sleep.
I hate to say it but humanity can do without these pussies. These kinds of people, if they were animals, would be eaten by the adults for fear of contaminating the species.

264 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:31:46am

#260 dustyroadguy

I for one am a proud 'apologist' for the right to kick the hell out of anyone one or nation that presumes to carry out genocide, expand borders by force or coercion, or use terrorism as a political tool.

So, you are coming after the US and Israel?

265 dustyroadguy  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:33:07am

engineer

;.)

266 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:33:46am

#243 JAB 10/16/2004 12:02PM PST

"You might also mention that Dresden was indeed a legitimate military target at the time."

Unlike the 1.5 million children who were murdered by the Nazis and their many allies for the "crime" of being Jewish, or the 100,000 Hungarian Jews who were murdered in just 8 days in Auschwitz in 1944.

While great swathes of Europe, in Poland, in Holland, in Lithuania, in Austria and elsewhere, those millions of properties and estates that belonged to the Jews who were murdered, still lies in the hands of the descendants of the murderers, I have no sympathy whatsoever for those who bleat hypocritically about the supposed war crimes of the Allies.

267 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:36:45am

I'm not a big German history buff, but IIRC Adolf Hitler was democratically elected by the German people. Granted, after, he assumed dictatorial control. But, IIRC, Mein Kampf was written while Hitler was in prison for the beer hall putsch, and was available for reading in Germany when Hitler was running for office.

I have never read Mein Kampf, but I understand Hitler's views about the Jews and other "inferior races", along with his views concerning Germany's rightful place in the world, are in the book.

So it isn't like Hitler was some tragedy that befell the German people. They chose him, and are at least partially responsible for all of the consequences of that choice.

268 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:37:42am

#257 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C

"BTW, I don't think today's Germans, born after the war, should feel any guilt for Hitler"

So you agree that they should also feel no pride for Germany's achievements before they were born? (See post #256 above)

269 odin  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:38:08am

According to for example Len Deighton's Blod, Tears and Folly (an easy and very good read), the USAAF and RAF dropped in the last eight months of the war ten times what Germany dropped during the whole war (including the V1 and V2 rockets). (The British losses of aircrew were also in the same period something like 10 times more than what was lost in the entire war as far as I remember - I don't have the book at hand). Harris was a great believer in strategic bombing and was severely critisized after the war. Many believe that Harris instead should have been tried as a war criminal for the bombing of Dresden (Len Deighton does not write anything about that). Instead a statue of Harris was raised in Trafalgar Square in the 90'ies.

Do I personally thing the UK should apologize: No. By todays standard, strategic bombing without laser-guided missiles is unthinkable. It was not in WW2 and it was important to stop the war before Germany developed more efficient weapons (like for example the H-bomb).

However, it is also a fact that Hitler held back in the bombing as he apparently believed that Churchill would give in eventually. The German generals did not agree with Hitler on this.

270 Victor  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:38:59am

#220 Adamthemadman asks:

"It's almost been 50 years since the end of the war. What the hell were the residents of Dresden waiting for anyway?" [to rebuild the Frauenkirche]

Dresden had the misfortune to be under a commie boot until 1989. Hard to rebuild churches when you're eating shoeleather and driving around the bomb blasted streets of your worker's paradise in a ridiculous Trabant.

Memories are long, however, and rebuilding the Frauenkirche has long been a dream of Dresdeners. It is an amazing project. The Church's masonry lost its integrity due to being fired at high heat for hours during the inferno. A few days later the entire thing collapsed in a vast mound of rubble. For many years the pieces were painstakingly recovered and catalogued, and are now being reassembled. New blocks of stone have been made to replace those too badly damaged to be reused.

I saw this project underway a couple years ago and it was quite moving. A testimony to the will to endure after suffering catastrophic horror.

271 levi from queens  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:40:34am

[engineer] your point is well taken, but it feels like legal higgling. Making war upon civilians has not proven to be a useful concept, although it has resulted in many deaths. Having a state involved instead of a substate group makes little difference to the relatives of the civilian victims.

People who committed mass murder in the 20th century were generally people who were strategically bombed and who lost a total war-- think Cambodia, think the Russians after WWI; think the Chinese after WWII; there is a brutalization from strategic bombing which makes ordinary people into monsters.

272 piglet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:40:40am

When I was in Prague in 1999 on a tour of the now empty synogogues, their was a german group of teens I thought wwere about 19 years old, and one couple was making out in the "spanish" synogogue. I am ashamed to say I didn't confront them.

273 Havoc  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:40:49am

#242 Xanax

"nuisance" yes, yes. But proper writs and torts were pontificatied over, declared "Peace in our time" waved like a hankey as Champerlain got off of his plane.

And finally Churchill and FDR took proper "law enforcement" action.

Long live the memory of that Nice Leon Jaworski, not just for his prosecution of Nixon, but for his work as a prosecutor at Neuremburg.

274 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:43:23am

#267 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C

"So it isn't like Hitler was some tragedy that befell the German people. They chose him, and are at least partially responsible for all of the consequences of that choice"

William Shirer, the very eminent American reporter who lived through much of the madness in Germany, states quite plainly that whatoever the German people may have had against the Hitler regime (and there was much), they were almost unanimous in favour of the Nazis' ill-treatment of the Jews; and this went double for Austria. You have to remember though that anti-Semitic legislation had been adopted in countries such as Lithuania, Poland and Hungary many years before they were invaded by the Germans. That there was also massive collaboration in much of Europe goes without saying.

275 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:49:48am

#271 levi from queens

"People who committed mass murder in the 20th century were generally people who were strategically bombed and who lost a total war"

The Germans and Austrians would have murdered most of Europe's Jews while the rest of the world joined in or looked on whatever happened in Dresden.

276 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:50:46am

268

No, I don't think they should. They didn't elect Hitler and didn't support him.


They should always remember Hitler though, as a warning that they have a culture capable of producing such a man.

Personally, I'm not big in multigenerationally guilt. I don't feel (especially because most of my ancestors weren't in this country during the days of slavery, and the one ancestor I had who was in this country fought for the Union in the war, but even if my great-great grand-pappy did fight for the South I'd still feel no guilt) guilt over slavery. I agree it is a shameful part of our history, but I feel no guilt for it.


I don't feel any big connections to my distant past. I probably had distant relatives that died during the Irish famines, and from what I understand the English of that time did not do what they could have to relieve the suffering and dying, but I don't expect a modern day Englishman to feel guilty for that. (For that matter, having a small amount of Austro-Hungarian Jewish ancestry, I likely had very distant relatives who died during the Holocaust)


Of course, there are Germans still alive who supported Hitler. They still bear some guilt, and the ones expecting an apology from the British or US for the war have obviously not learned their lesson.

277 Rayra[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:51:43am
278 cba  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:54:24am

#261 Spiritualized:
Thank you, that's exactly what I was looking for. I have bookmarked the site.

Even excluding the Sudan, Iraq, and Israel, there's still way over 1,000 deaths. I think for the purposes of my letter to the editor I'll just use the biggest incidents (a long list like that will never get published).

279 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:54:55am

Maybe I'm being a snob or something, but I think most of the best and brightest left Europe over the last three hundred years for the Americas and Australia.

280 piglet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:55:50am

A factor in germany's lack of tonage in bombing was that germany never had true heavy bobmers in numbers. Many of their bombers where "mail planes" that where used to get around restrictions on them after WW!

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

of course had the Us waited longer to get into the war, germany might have fielded jet bombers in effetive numbers:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

281 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:57:48am

#267 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C

I have never read Mein Kampf, but I understand Hitler's views about the Jews and other "inferior races", along with his views concerning Germany's rightful place in the world, are in the book.

I was going to quote some of his ranting, but I don't think I should expose that foul mess. Suffice to say, there is much in the book about the Jews and other "inferior races" in the worse sort of way.

282 levi from queens  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:58:10am

Pooh -- I am not convinced that the ordinary people of Germany in the 40s would have joined in or even acquiesced in such an evil if these people had not felt that they were world-class victims.

The stab-in-the-back talk from Hitler about Versailles would not have had the same effect. It was the strategic bombing of WWII, not just Dresden but through all of Germany, which allowed them to feel justified in unprecedented evil. I am not arguing that they were justified in such thinking-- only that they felt justified.

People who feel themselves to be victims can commit horrible crimes. The military value of this bombing was far eclipsed by the evil perpetrated by the bombees.

283 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 10:59:04am

#280 piglet

Many of their bombers where "mail planes" that where used to get around restrictions on them after WW!

Actually, they were designed as bombers but the "mail plane" was used as a cover to get around the WWI armistice.

284 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:03:44am
285 Victor  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:04:59am

#276 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C:


"Personally, I'm not big in multigenerationally guilt."

It's called, "Original Sin" -- the ultimate multi-generational guilt. Includes you and me too, I'm afraid.

:-)

286 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:09:25am
287 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:09:26am

#271 levi from queens

there is a brutalization from strategic bombing which makes ordinary people into monsters.

I disagree.

In the last five months of World War II, American bombing raids claimed the lives of more than 900,000 Japanese civilians—not counting the casualties from the atomic strikes against Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This is more than twice the total number of combat deaths that the United States has suffered in all its foreign wars combined.

Source

The Japanese didn't become monsters, nor did the Germans after WWII. The Germans did become monsters after WWI when there was no strategic bombing.

The Russians and Chinese don't count since the people didn't make those decisions, their leaders did.

288 Havoc  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:10:23am

#280 Piglet

We all narrowly escaped a holocaust at the hands of the Nazi's.

They were looking for "Miracle Weapons" at the end, and hitler would have unleashed them.

They had Cruise Missles V1 and V2 rockets.

They were very far along on their "Heavy Water Experiments" and only needed perhaps another year to produce "THE Bomb". They were only slowed by the loss of so many Jewish Physicists who had fled or perished -- so much so Hitler railed about the science of "jewish Physics".

Had they developed the bomb, they had over 100 of the perfect delivery system that could pass P51 Mustang like it was standing still, the ME 262

It is hard to find, but the telling of how close we all were is in "How Hitler Lost the War"

289 odin  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:10:46am
It was the strategic bombing of WWII, not just Dresden but through all of Germany, which allowed them to feel justified in unprecedented evil.

I don't think so as the strategic bombing happened rather late (see #269). However, the French demands after WW1 humiliated Germany and was almost certainly the main reason Hitler got as much support as he did. After he came to power, the German people did not have much say.

Another reason for the cruelty was probably that the Russians did not take prisoners. Also - when the food ran out - some Russion troups ate the dead German soldiers.

After WW2, Marshall made sure not to humiliate Germany and Japan, hence the rebuilding of those two countries.

290 Darleen  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:10:48am

Apologies, I haven't read all the comments..but

What else can we expect from a Leftist dominated culture that eschews morality and hates Western Culture?

No such thing as self-defense, so 'winning' a war someone else started is an occasion for 'shame' and 'apologies.'

Anyone else alarmed at the trend in public elementary school to eliminate all games that have a "winner"?

Surely, we are looking into the maw of a new Dark Age if we acquiese to the rabid anti-human Left.

291 American Infidel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:12:37am
292 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:13:07am

#285 Victor

It's called, "Original Sin" -- the ultimate multi-generational guilt. Includes you and me too, I'm afraid.

Only if you buy into it, which I don't.

293 dustyroadguy  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:13:15am

engineer

#281

did you get past the first 10 pages...

294 odin  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:15:22am

#287

The Russians and Chinese don't count since the people didn't make those decisions, their leaders did.

Hitler made himself a dictator very early (I will have to look up the year) and the Germans did not have any say. The Japanese likewise had no say.

295 Darleen  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:16:52am

odin

Um... we thoroughly and completely crushed Germany and Japan, and then engaged in heavy occupation while restructuring those countries AND helping them rebuild.

MacArthur was, for all intents and purposes, the Emperor of Japan during the occupation ...he even wrote their constitution.

During the occupation of Germany (which homeside newspapers like the NYTimes hysterically called "a failure") "insurgents" were rounded up and executed by firing squad.

The rebuilding and restructing of those countries were as far from a Kum-by-ah moment as can be possibily imagined.

296 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:17:49am

#293 dustyroadguy

did you get past the first 10 pages...

Not even that far. I have a HTML copy and can search it, but I have no desire to read the thing.

297 dustyroadguy  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:19:28am

odin

hitler was elected to the bundersdadt(sp) by a voting district in germany...

he came to power by organizing a political party named the national socialist german worker's party and getting them elected to the bunderstadt(sp), That entity then elected him chancelor and he formed a governmdnt. After that he consolidated power and took dictatorial control...

germany did not directly elect him like we do a president here but his party was elected by the people and he came to power with there support.

298 odin  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:19:57am

#295

Yes, that is what I said in the last two lines of #289.
In #294, I am talking about during the war.

299 dustyroadguy  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:22:16am

297

PIMF~sometimes!

there=their

300 odin  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:22:41am

#297

Well, he came to power by the people and became dictator via the Reichtag. The people did not have much say in that but since Hitler was spinning as much as Clinton, Kerry and Tony Blair together, they were rather ill informed.

301 Darleen  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:22:43am

#286 Iron Fist

The Left left loves "gun control" for one reason only..

they don't like power in the hands of individuals. They want all power vested in the government AND the government run by them.

This is why you see such farces as the McCain/Feingold "finance reform" because only the super wealthy are able to run..it has made it impossible for even modestly well-off people to run for office.

302 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:24:13am
303 Rock  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:28:43am

248 levi from queens:

With the exception of the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there is no example of bombing civilian populations which has ever been militarily effective.

You are engaging in 20/20 hindsight, but to understand why the decisions were made, you need to know the history behind the bomber strategy:

The nearly 20 years of peace following World War I, which saw only minor colonial uprisings and the Spanish Civil War, did not provide too many chances for the prophets to test their theories. Yet the war had given them enough evidence to decide that to end a future conflict quickly and with minimal loss of life, a bombing campaign was necessary, directed not at the troops, but at the cities of the enemy. The idea of bombing to deprive the enemy of the means and will to continue to fight became known as "strategic bombing."

Bombing cities made sense to the prophets. Well-trained troops had already proved that they had the endurance to withstand protracted attack. Yet, civilians in cities had demonstrated the opposite. Trenchard claimed that civilians "are not disciplined and it can not be expected that they will stick stolidly to their lathes and benches." During the Gotha raids on London, the city had gone through a minor panic; many had fled to the countryside for safety, and the newspapers had run columns criticizing the government’s inability to protect the capital. In studying the effects of the Gotha raids, the prophets theorized that increased, intensified attacks, which included incendiary and gas bombs, would cause a populace to rise up against its government. This would result in chaos, with loss of productivity, riots, looting, and eventually a toppling of the government leading to surrender. The country that would emerge victorious from a bombing war would be the country whose populace could endure the bombings while delivering greater damage to the other side.

The Prophets: Advocates of Strategic Bombing

Realize that both sides bought into these theories, because they had no frame of reference to guide them. Indeed, their only experience was limited to the aforementioned Gotha raids on London, which were widely reported as "death raining from the skies" and caused panic among the population.

Given this limited history, it is natural to theorize that if a small group of lightly-armed bombers could cause this reaction, then groups of 600-1200 bombers equipped with firebombs would cause the near-immediate capitulation of the opposing side.

I submit to you that the jury is still out regarding the effectiveness of bombing civilian population centers directly. If this strategy were truly deemed unworkable, then why do the nations of the world have ultra-powerful nuclear weapons aimed at population centers? It is only within the past 10 years that "smart" weapons have become a truly viable alternative; only a small percentage of tonnage dropped in Desert Storm was guided. Therefore, from the beginning of mankind's history until the late 1990s, the preferred method of warfare was to directly terrorize the civilian population into submission and revolt. It remains to be seen how "smart" weapons will affect this paradigm.

Also realize smart weapons are drastically more expensive than conventional "dumb" weapons. This explains why biological and chemical weapons are the new preferred weapon of international terrorists: they can be made cheaply, and they directly terrorize the civilian population.

Finally, bombing the population directly, while heinous in many respects, draws on the oft-repeated observation that "people are sheep" and do not want to change. The bombing disrupts and destroys their world, forcing them to seek a change. Since they cannot directly attack the enemy force, they can opt for simpler answer: capitulation.

This explains France and the American Left

304 piglet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:28:56am

Gee what if Michael Moore used his f9/11 money to start WW3?

OT talk about apologies:

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

PARIS - Descendants of the native American warrior Crazy Horse want a change in the famed Paris strip club named after him.

Alfred Red Cloud, a member of the Oglala Sioux tribe, delivered a letter Saturday to the operators of the Crazy Horse saloon asking them to change the club's name.

"The name is a sacred name to our people. Nobody uses that name back home — even our own people," Red Cloud told reporters outside the posh club, located near the Champs-Elysees.

Of course me, I'd settle for free lifetime passes to the club for the whole tribe.

305 dustyroadguy  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:29:19am

there is only 'one' kind of gun control...hitting the (-0-)

306 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:32:52am

#272 piglet

You were not the one to feel shame..the tour guide should have taken action.

#282 Levi from Queens

I am sorry to have to disagree with you; many nations have suffered..here, when the Great Depresion happened, and there were bread lines, during the Oklahoma Dustbowl, we did not blindly follow a madman. Look at the French..it was 'Take our Jews, please!' when they gladly turned over thousands of French Jews to the nazis, as did Poland and a number of countries.

Yes, there were many good people, The Righteous Among the Nations who at risk of death, took in and hid Jews from the nazis. When caught, they, too, lost their lives, yet they did not lose their humanity and decency when living under such dreadful conditions.

Ironic, that in Howard Beach, Queens, Rockland Park Jewish Center, was found covered in swastikas. The NYPD cleaned the exterior, bless them, before the congregants arrived...it was especially sad, as there was a service for the few survivors still in the area, a Holocaust rememberance.

We are not suffering under the yoke of a brutal dictator here, nor in Canada, the UK, and the rest of Europe, yet the hatred of Jews is still evident everywhere.

In Germany, the hatred and persecution did not start with the Austrian h*** (may his name be obliterated); it was merely given a Petri dish in which to flourish. The neo-nazis still flourish, even though many have never even seen a Jew. The camp guards went happily about the camps, and threw live Jews into the 'showers' and ovens with gusto, aided by the kapos...among whom were Jews.

Sorry, I again state Never forgive, never forget!

307 gymnast  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:33:27am

Saddam Hussain was a grade school student compared to the two professors of terror and destrution, Hitler and Stalin. Saddam was a willing student however, and his ambitions were to obtain a professoriate also. I thought it an error not to level the cities of the Sunni Triangle as the first step in the invasion of Iraq, starting with Takrit and then proceeding with one city a day until the end of the war. We will regret our mercy for it was not recognized and is not respected.

308 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:35:20am

#302 Iron Fist

as it is, I suspect that they feel towards Hitler the way Southerners feel towards Robert E. Lee

I hope not. The first thing I think about when Robert E. Lee is mentioned is "honor" He had it in spades.

309 abu_garcia  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:37:02am

#125 NYNana

I will give the Germans credit for one thing that we would do well to emulate: hate, on the internet, is a crime, and neo-nazi websites are closed down. Here? the freedom to hate is PC, and the aclu will defend their right to it, even when the storm troopers are at the door.

Keep in mind that there are many who would shut LGF down as a "hate" site if they could.

310 odin  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:37:13am

#303 Rock

Good points!

311 drool  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:37:15am

gymnast, You missed one.

Mao.

312 Rock  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:40:00am

297 dustyroadguy:

hitler was elected to the bundersdadt(sp) by a voting district in germany...

he came to power by organizing a political party named the national socialist german worker's party and getting them elected to the bunderstadt(sp), That entity then elected him chancelor and he formed a governmdnt. After that he consolidated power and took dictatorial control...

Actually, Hitler wasn't even elected. He was appointed chancellor (SELECTED NOT ELECTED!!! /sorry) by Paul von Hindenburg in 1933. Hindenburg was recalled from retirement to defend Germany during World War I. Then he was called back from retirement again when he won a landslide victory in the 1925 presidential election by write-in vote.

Hindenburg was old, feeble, and didn't even believe in democracy --- he was a monarchist. He caved to severe pressure from the Nazi party and appointed Hitler to the chancellory ater refusing several times. Given the nature of the Nazi party, one can imagine the types of threats that were made against him.

When Hindenburg died in 1934, Hitler merged the two offices and seized power. There was no direct election, but there was definitely no "election" by the German parliament, either. It was a perfect coup d'etat.

313 Dashing Dasher  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:40:32am

How can we win a war in the era of "Political Correctness"? (ugh!)

Don't kill civilians?
Well, get the F* out of the way!

Don't bomb the bad people?
Shall we negotiate with them - before we shoot them?
I don't remember being given the chance to negotiate with the !@#$ that hit us on 9/11.

It reminds me of the movie Tora Tora Tora! Where the Ambassador from Japan was to deliver his message to the USA and was late - ergo, Pearl Harbor. Was he late on purpose? Did the Japanese really want to warn us of what was to come? YeahRightSure.

We were sitting around picking lint out of our collective belly buttons (before they were pierced) and were hit - in both scenarios. And we aren't supposed to retaliate? Beat the tar out of the bad guys?

We need to start thinking like winners again and stop thinking like politically correct freaks of nature.

Remember when Americans could walk the earth without fear? Before Carter? BJ Clinton? And the world of PC-ness?

314 JHW  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:42:43am

#208 I have to comment on your mention of our not using atomic weapons on Germany and your apparent inferance that it was easier to do to the Japanese because of their race, occasionally some moral equivalence types advance this same argument to "prove" how racist the US war effort was. Atomic weapons were not available until mid 1945, by that time Allied troops were IN Germany, Germany was packed with foreign slave laborers and had nations bordering it that were our allies or at least not allied to Germany. Given these facts just what do you think would have been the effects of radioactive fallout on all of the above? Kill our own troops and those of our allies?Not a bright idea. Japan by contrast is a group of islands, isolated from it`s neighbors,no allied troops were in Japan at the time of the A-bombings. Racism hardly explains the rationale for the decision to A-bomb Japan instead of Germany, but simple common sense does.If Germany had been uninvaded and a little more distant from it`s neighbors I seriously doubt Truman would have had any sruples about using the A-bomb on "white people".

315 Havoc  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:44:03am

American Infidel - Way OT:

As much as we all dislike Tereeza Heinz ketchup, and the fact she never worked an honest day in her life, just "married the money"...

they are called Municipal Bonds --- and throw off TAX FREE DIVIDEND payments by design.

Those bonds offer low interest rates to investors, but it is tax free.

Those bonds also offer low borrowing costs to cities and counties and build roads, schools, hospitals, finance firefighting equipment, and we all need them.

Us working stiffs and the "retirees" who buy them.

That said -- she's one of the "Sc_mbags everywhere" and would make the Nation a laughingstock in the halls of the alliance summits.

316 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:45:55am

#313 Dashing Dasher

It reminds me of the movie Tora Tora Tora! Where the Ambassador from Japan was to deliver his message to the USA and was late - ergo, Pearl Harbor. Was he late on purpose? Did the Japanese really want to warn us of what was to come? YeahRightSure.

No, he was not late on purpose. They were NOT going to warn us, they were going to declare war just minutes before the attack. That way, it could not be called a sneak attack.

317 abu_garcia  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:46:42am

#146 bos

Actually, the reason I have seen given for Dresden was that it was an experiment to see what would happen if a city was firebombed. Tokyo was more intentional as they then knew.

I don't particularly worry about either. That's the kind of stuff that happens in war, which is a good reason to give a lot of thought to starting one.

Limited war is an oxymoron.

318 Rock  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:46:55am

313 Dashing Dancer:

We were sitting around picking lint out of our collective belly buttons (before they were pierced) and were hit - in both scenarios. And we aren't supposed to retaliate? Beat the tar out of the bad guys?

Not according to the isolationists. We just watched the ad the Dems are pushing that raise fears of a "Bush draft". Even worse is their "Word on the street" video. Nothing but a bunch of morally lazy isolationists.

We deconstructed their responses here: I would rather live on my knees, etc.

319 [Engineer]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:48:41am

#314 JHW

Given these facts just what do you think would have been the effects of radioactive fallout on all of the above? Kill our own troops and those of our allies?Not a bright idea.

The fallout would have had the same effect it had on the Japanese population, nothing.

320 dustyroadguy  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:53:36am

rock

your right, thanks...however his party structure was elected by hook, crook, lack of wisdom by the people, or plain lazyness, spin, or their willings to go along with the parties anti-jew idealogy...my point was that hitler did not come to power in vacumn...there was support for his political structure.

321 JHW  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:54:37am

Engineer, you may be correct about that, but that is something we know now but was not neccessarily known THEN.

322 dustyroadguy  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:55:28am

Charles,

spell check for the posts, please...

323 odin  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 11:57:40am

#312 Rock

You could say that Hitlers party was Hitler. and that Hitler was elected.

The Reichtag gave a decree that gave Hitler absolute power on 26th April.

324 Mar  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 12:08:04pm

Rock,

IIRC Hindenburg couldn't stand Hitler.

325 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 12:12:31pm

#302 Iron Fist

Great post, yet again. BTW, I did a quick search: mein kampf is readily available on Amazon US & Canada, and on Barnes and Noble. The largest Canadian chain, Chapters.Indigo does not have it, but I suspect it is because Heather Reisman, who originally started Indigo, and her husband, Gerald Schwartz, are proudly Jewish, and when she bought Chapters, I think she would not allow the chain to carry it.

Amazon US & Ca, as well as Barnes and Noble, also still carry Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, while again, Chapters does not. I had thought that the others had agreed not to carry it, when there were complaints about Amazon...

#309 abu_garcia

I honestly cannot see how LGF would meet that criteria in any country. The truth is very hard for some LLL's to grasp, but they go to other sites I will not grace by mentioning, one of which had its' server seized, and 20 of its' sites shut down when the FBI went to Europe to get the info. The other is a despicable POS who is their darling, who loves to send his cronies to LGF to try and stack the polls after a debate or when we vote on the Presidential choice(s).

They would love to get Charles, as he dares to post threads that contain the truth, which is their enemy. I cannot think of any website that has such a mix of posters, and if any hate is posted, Charles deletes it before we are even aware of it in most cases...and realize that a POS troll visited, by the [deleted] mark.

Charles deserves a commendation for what he has done, especially re rathergate. 'Hate' site? Nope.

326 Victor  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 12:13:40pm

#286 Iron Fist:

"Don't kid yourselves, Guys and Dolls, there are those in America who would love to turn us into a Police State. They aren't John Ashcroft or George Bush, though. They aren't the Neo-Conservatives, the Jews, or the Lizardoid Minions.

They are the Left, and they'd love a Police State.

Concur. We see that clearly. But isn't it just boggling that not only does the left deny any trace of Totalism (a bit of judicious pruning there:-) in their numerous "plans", but also ascribe to us, we sons & daughters of '76, those of us whose first and defining loyalty is to Liberty, that they would accuse us, who are not only innocent of the charge, but are deeply and demonstrably antagonistic to the Totalism historically proven to be at of the very core of their agenda, is it not outrageous that they accuse US of being the fascists?. Outrageous!

Here we have two polar opposite viewpoints. And only one of them is true. And the other one must be a serious delusion. And those who believe it are seriously delusional. Yow. I know I'm sane, and I know you're sane (usually), but who are all these delusionals, and where do they all come from?

(Puts me in mind of Lincoln: "God must have loved the moonbats, He made so many of them")

327 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 12:35:38pm

From Noel Coward, patriot.

Don't Let's Be Beastly to the Germans

We must be kind
And with an open mind
We must endeavour to find
A way --
To let the Germans know that when the war is over
They are not the ones who'll have to pay.
We must be sweet
And tactful and discreet
And when they've suffered defeat
We mustn't let
Them feel upset
Or ever get
The feeling that we're cross with them or hate them,
Our future policy must be to reinstate them.

Refrain 1

Don't let's be beastly to the Germans
When our victory is ultimately won,
It was just those nasty Nazis who persuaded them to fight
And their Beethoven and Bach are really far worse than their bite
Let's be meek to them--
And turn the other cheek to them
And try to bring out their latent sense of fun.
Let's give them full air parity
And treat the rats with charity,
But don't let's be beastly to the Hun.

Verse 2

We must be just
And win their love and trust
And in addition we must
Be wise
And ask the conquered lands to join our hands to aid them.
That would be a wonderful surprise.
For many years--
They've been in floods of tears
Because the poor little dears
Have been so wronged and only longed
To cheat the world,
Deplete the world
And beat
The world to blazes.
This is the moment when we ought to sing their praises.

Refrain 2

Don't let's be beastly to the Germans
When we've definately got them on the run
Let us treat them very kindly as we would a valued friend
We might send them out some Bishops as a form of lease and lend,
Let's be sweet to them
And day by day repeat to them
That 'sterilization' simply isn't done.
Let's help the dirty swine again
To occupy the Rhine again,
But don't let's be beastly to the Hun.

Refrain 3

Don't let's be beastly to the Germans
When the age of peace and plenty has begun.
We must send them steel and oil and coal and everything they need
For their peaceable intentions can be always guaranteed.
Let's employ with them a sort of 'strength through joy' with them,
They're better than us at honest manly fun.
Let's let them feel they're swell again and bomb us all to hell again,
But don't let's be beastly to the Hun.

Refrain 4

Don't let's be beastly to the Germans
For you can't deprive a gangster of his gun
Though they've been a little naughty to the Czechs and Poles and Dutch
But I don't suppose those countries really minded very much
Let's be free with them and share the B.B.C. with them.
We mustn't prevent them basking in the sun.
Let's soften their defeat again - and build their bloody fleet again,
But don't let's be beastly to the Hun.

328 Victor  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 12:42:29pm

 #292 [Engineer]:

#285 Victor
It's called, "Original Sin" -- the ultimate multi-generational guilt. Includes you and me too, I'm afraid.

Only if you buy into it, which I don't. 


Perhaps, if you prefer, an equivalent concept for "original sin" would be "Darwinian legacy" -- those savage drives we have inherited from the prehistoric struggle to survive.

"Original Sin" may be seen as a poetic, or mythic, explantion for the persistent ills of the world, that was concocted long ago for the simple minds of those times. Naturally, it does not satisfy rational sophisticates like you and I.
:-)

329 Darleen  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 12:43:07pm

#327 Lady

ROFLMAO

I had entirely forgotten that!

Thanks for posting.

330 Rang1995  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 12:44:30pm

i am going to puke---those puppets in TEAM AMERICA are smarter

331 siis  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 12:55:41pm

As an earlier poster stated, "not the Europe of your dad." But it is sounding more and more like the Europe of my granddad.

332 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:04:06pm

I lived the firebombings of Dresden. I lived hidden in a basement after escaping from Buchenwald. The house was destroyed and when day came I was erring through the burning streets of Dresden, full with screaming people burning of phosphor, jumping into the Elbe where they continued burning. I saw American planes hunting down fleeing people (including women and children) in the streets with machine guns.

Dresden was full with refugees these days. It absolutely had no military value. It duid nothing to shorten the war. It probably didn't save the life of a single British or American soldier.

I will not comment on whether "apologies" are warranted in wars.

But I resent the headline, that this is an apology to the Nazis.

It is a magnanimous gesture of the British people.

Don't ruin it

333 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:08:38pm

#332 True German Ally

"Magnanimous gesture"?

"Magnanimous gesture"?!

Unfuckingbelievable.

334 Luigi  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:10:51pm
“How can we explain to our children the madness that was unleashed in those days?


From way in the back of the classroom, Luigi waves his hand in the air. "I can explain it! It's like Proverbs 26:3

A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.


In fact, we might have to do it again!"

335 Albertadude  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:12:55pm

Interesting discussion my friends...

A few things..

First if this is true about an apology, then that is simply disgusting...pee cee idiocy run amok...how the hell are we going to defeat the Islamic hordes if we are behaving in such a gutless fashion...or should I say, how the hell are we going to recognize evil if we are willing to apologize for a just war against Nazis...

But I must disagree with a couple of things here...

I do agree that we musn't continue to hold present day Germans accountable for something that happened over 60 years ago...that is like blaming all of us present day North Americans for what happened to Native Americans...By my understanding, most Germans pretty well flaggelate themselves over WW2 and while it is good for them to remember what their ancestors did, they shouldn't be held to account for that behavior...

Also, and this about the only time I will agree with Liberals, Dresden was totally unnecassry to bomb and served no purpose whatsoever...I have never agreed with that and seemed totally senseless to me to destroy that beautiful city and killed thousands upon thousands of civilians...now if someone can show me that there was war plants and the like there, well then I have no problem...otherwise it just seems like a revenge thing (completely understandable at that time) and only served to kill regular German citizens...

Thanks

336 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:14:49pm

Thom

Yes magnanimous

And "publicly acknowledging the horrors of RAF bombing raids" is indeed not an apology. It sounds much more like "we wish we could have avoided this"

Magnanimous is something you do although you don't have to.

337 Luigi  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:20:18pm

BTW anything the Queen does is okay by me. She was a hero of the war, worth an entire army. Just by being her unvarnished, ebulent, pure andun-affected teenage self she provided the West with the alternative to a future with Hitler. She was the anti-Hitler, the future without Hitler.

As to the wisdom or the morality of firebombing Dresden let me quote the following: "War is a series of catastrophies that results in victory."

338 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:21:20pm

#336 True German Ally

I'm going to choose my words very carefully because from what I've seen you seem like a basically good person ... BUT:

A German whining about " the horrors of RAF bombing raids" is absolutely intolerable.

Shall we talk about the horrors England suffered with truly gratuitous bombing of civilians, the goddamn rockets, the concentration camps, etc and so on that your people brought to the world?

Do you wonder why more and more Americans are turning their backs on that shitty little continent called "europe"? Well you've provided an excellent example of that self-absorbed european bullshit that just turns American stomachs.

339 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:28:16pm

Thom

Did you even bother to read the article and my post?

340 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:28:50pm
341 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:30:49pm

#339 True German Ally

Of course I did.

Now what?

342 Luigi  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:31:57pm

I've been reliving the Vietnam War all year, so let me relive World War II today. The fact that I am alive today is totally accidental. My father was buried under rubble in London in a V1 attack and only survived by accident. Another time his platoon was trucking into London and he was excused because it was his birthday (yes, they did stuff like that), and the truck was bombed and everybody died. I was just thinking about Dresden the other day (I actually was!) and I don't completely understand it. But I think the moral of the story is War Is Hell. And the real moral of the story is that if Hitler had been stopped with a single bullet in 1936 the Queen could stay home and help William with his homework because there wouldn't have been a WWII.

343 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:42:02pm

#332 True german

I saw American planes hunting down fleeing people (including women and children) in the streets with machine guns.

That's an impressive feat for a high altitude bomber!

In the Dresden bombing attacks of 14-15 February 1945 the American Eighth Air Force and the RAF Bomber Command together employed a total of 1299 bomber aircraft (527 from the Eighth Air Force, 722 from the RAF Bomber Command)

[Link: www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil...]

344 Bildo  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:45:02pm

For those who feel sorry for poor Nazi Germany (From Winston Churchill's autobiography):

"From September 7 to November 3 an average of two hundred German bombers attacked London every night."

[After an extremely brutal raid on London]"When we got back into the car a harsher mood swept over this haggard crowd. 'Give it 'em back,' they cried, and 'Let them have it too.' I undertook forthwith to see that their wishes were carried out; and this promise was certainly kept. The debt was repaid tenfold, twentyfold, in the frightful routine bombardment of German cities, which grew in intensity as our air-power developed, as the bombs became far heavier and the explosives more powerful. Certainly the enemy got it all back in good measure, pressed down and running over. Alas for poor humanity!"

"In the middle of September a new and damaging form of attack was used against us. Large numbers of delayed-action bombs were now widely and plentifully cast upon us."

"About the same time the enemy began to drop by parachute numbers of naval mines of a weight and explosive power never carried by aircraft before. .. The abandonment by the Germans of all pretence of confining the air war to military objectives had also raised this question of retaliation. I was for it, but I encountered many conscientious scruples."

" The climax of the raid of these weeks came once more to London, on Sunday, December 29. All the painfully-gathered German experience was expressed on this occasion. It was an incendiary classic. The weight of the attack was concentrated upon the City of London itself. It was timed to meet the dead-low-water hour" [that is that the least amount of water to fight fires was available]

They attacked London for no reason but to instill terror. While I harbor no hard feelings towards the current German state for their forefathers actions, the Germans of WWII received in payback everything that was coming to them. I have no pity for them.

345 Bildo  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:48:22pm

#332 True German Ally:

"I lived the firebombings of Dresden.

I would dare say that you are a liar.

346 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:49:05pm
347 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:50:30pm

#345 Bildo

Careful now ...

348 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:52:50pm

jdroll

Those planes were not bombers, they were fighter aircraft flying at extremely low altitude (Tiefflieger).

I'm not the only witness of these things. Many have. The facts have sometimes been denied.

I have seen it with my own eyes.

War brings out the worst in mankind. Nobody is immune.

Thom
Read the article to find out that it was not the Germans "whining" but the British "acknowledging"

bigel
Since our first encounter I felt that it would only enbitter the two of us if we started discussing about these things so let's leave it at that.

Somebody who regrets that I wasn't killed back then (along with other millions) is not somebody I can discuss with.

349 Bukko  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:53:15pm

Kerry is our modern day Chamberlin...or,more like it , he wants to be. We should've learned our lessons by now. The vetrans of W.W. II are all heros.

350 Blue Falcon  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:56:25pm

#348 While Dresden was burning the fires created large updrafts that affected heavy bombers flying at thousands of feet in the air. Small fighter aircraft would not be able to fly sucessfully at low altitudes in such strong updrafts, let alone conduct strafing runs. You are full of sh*t kiddo and disgust me by trying to portray yourself as an elderly "victim".

351 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:57:28pm
352 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:58:20pm

#348 True German Ally

{sigh}

The British have nothing to acknowledge, except that they fought the evil nazi bastards the best way they knew how.

Sir Peter Torrey is an asswipe, and if the queen put him up to this craven display then she's a pathetic asswipe as well.

353 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 1:59:41pm

#332 true german allie

It absolutely had no military value.

Someone thought it did:

Specific Target Objectives in the Dresden Area:

24. As related in paragraphs 5-11 above, Dresden became a military target as (1), and of overriding importance, a primary communications center in the Berlin-Leipzig-Dresden railway complex; (2) as an important industrial and manufacturing center directly associated with the production of aircraft components and other military items, including poison gas, anti-aircraft and field guns, and small guns; and (3) as an area containing specific military installations. The night raid by the RAF Bomber Command was intended to devastate the city area itself and thereby choke communications within the city and disrupt the normal civilian life upon which the larger communications activities and the manufacturing enterprises of the city depended. Further, the widespread area raid conducted by the British entailed bombing strikes against the many industrial plants throughout the city which were thus to be construed as specific targets within the larger pattern of the area raid.44 The Eighth Air Force raids, which were by daylight and followed, on the 14th and 15th February, the night raid of the British (13/14 February), were directed against rail activities in the city.45

[Link: www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil...]

354 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:06:47pm

RE this topic and the responses.

1. this was not an apology for offensive bombings (but it was a statement of feeling for the fact that innocents died).
2. this was not an apology to nazis (Charles...really bad headline...sorry but it is.)
3. ...the same shit on LGF...It's come down to nuking continents...(Bigel...I'm sure your a decent bloke but ...sorry there's no point in arguing as you'd gladly nuke myslef, my family, my friends and my work colleagues...hopefully you can see this as why I have a problem)
5. I've had enough.
6. ...blaming young Germans
7. ...blaming anybody apart frome the nazi's themselves.
8. ...I'm sickened.
9. ...
10. ... Lost for words. Goodbye.

355 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:07:15pm

#352 Thom

The British have never been at ease with Dresden. This is what makes them a highly civilized nation.

No German of today (except those with Nazi sympathies) can and will ever deny that it was Germany which brought unspeakable horror onto the nations of Europe, the Jews... and yes, onto London and Coventry.

If you call Dresden a revenge for this, then this is actually more honest than anything else.

When you wage a "total war" against others like Germany did you have nobody else to blame than yourself.

But reconciliation can never be based on revenge. And if a former enemy makes a magnanimous gesture like this one and reaches out to you I will happily accept his hand.

356 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:13:36pm

#355 True German Ally

I'm rather surprised you don't get this.

The ambassador's statement is one more step down the road to drawing a moral equivalency between the nazis and the British.

We don't want to go there, because that way lies madness, but the British happily skip down that path.

It was not a magnanimous gesture. It was intensely stupid and craven.

357 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:15:41pm

#342 Luigi

You must be so proud of your dad..

The night of the long knives, in '34, was quite an accomplishment for h*** (may his name be obliterated), and the words of Neville Chamberlain certainly hastened the path of the war...

Isn't it Prince Harry who might need some help from his Gran with his homework? There seems to be a kerfuffle re his A level in Art, but I understand that he has been cleared, and the teacher's tape was a lie.

My friend in Bromley, with whom we stay when in London, had a Dad who was a watcher, from the coast, during the Dunkirk mission. He was a member of the RNLI,, and I have his banner framed on the wall, as he left it to me after his death. She and her siblings and mum were evacuated to the north during the war, and when I think of what it was like for them, and what a protected childhood I had here, in Boston, I feel guilty. Any of my friends in my age group (late 60's) in London share similar experiences. I listen in awe.I recall that rationing lasted long after the war, and we used to send Christmas gifts of sweets to my pen friends, who I now know personally.

I am the granddaughter (on my Mum's OBM side) of an Anglo Jew..he died before I was born.

I have always been proud of my English heritage, but as a Jew, this capitualtion, by a country that suffered so much, hurts.

358 heyniceboard  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:17:14pm

Still, the Germans have done much better than the Japanese in terms of reconciliation. Japanese PM Koizumi continues to visit war memorials that honor Class A WWII war criminals, the most famous being the Yasukuni Shrine. It's really disgusting, and most Japanese today relate the invasion of China/Manchuria and SE Asia during WWII as akin to Americans liberating Iraqis.

359 MartinG  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:18:49pm

Since people keep bringing up 'Mein Kampf'

Few did actually read it, and those who did didn't take it seriously, since it seemed so hyperbolic.

360 Perpetual Student  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:20:44pm

Did Bill Clinton get a chance to apologize for our partaking in the Dresden bombing after having apologized to Africa for the US slave trade? I would imagine that the intensity of hand-wringing nearly sixty years after the fact would be far less were it not for the involvement of us [slashbot]EEEeeevil AMERIKKKANS.[/slashbot]

361 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:20:58pm

#348 True German Ally

"War brings out the worst in mankind. Nobody is immune."

What you are trying to do here is to relativise the crimes of the German nation in World War II by suggesting that the Allies were equally as bad.

The problem with that notion is that the destruction of the Jewish people had nothing to do with war, and everything to with the complete moral bankruptcy of the German nation and culture.

It suprises me little that today Germany has one of the highest rates of anti-Semitism in Europe, and that a large percentage of Germans believe that "Jews should leave the Middle East." The magnanimity came when the Allies decided at the close of the war not to break Germany up and scatter her people to the four winds. Indeed, this wasn't just magnanimous, it was also, almost certainly, a huge mistake.

Don't get me wrong: I don't believe that, as far as the Jewish people is concerned, Germany is any more evil than say Poland, Hungary or Lithuania. I do believe that it's infinitely more dangerous than any of those nations though.

362 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:23:00pm

#356 Thom

There is nothing, absolutely nothing in that statement that would suggest such a "moral equivalency".

363 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:27:11pm

#361 Pooh

No, I definitely don't say that. After all I was saved by the Allies two months later.

But wars bring out the worst in mankind. And the best, too.

It is important that the best prevails.

364 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:27:21pm

#362 True German Ally

Oh, but there absolutely is. From now on, any time anyone mentions the "horror" of nazi germany, germans can reply with the "horror" of RAF bombing raids, courtesy of Sir Peter.

Yeah, the nazis sucked, but - sheesh! - look at us ... we bombed dresden.

365 Ann  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:31:39pm

#351 bigel

I want to tell them that I hate them, I will always hate them


I have a visual of you standing at a podium, waving your arm authoritatively. With a narrow mustache.
Just like Hitler hated.

My .02

366 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:31:52pm
“It was a bleak and terrifying moment in the modern history of Brunswick,” said Sir Peter in the nave of the cathedral. “How can we explain to our children the madness that was unleashed in those days? How can we explain that such a beautiful and historical city as Brunswick became the target of attacks from the air?”

I hope he listed Hitler's crimes, and told them that while we might not like what we did, we were given little choice. And that we'd do it again if we had to.

367 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:31:59pm

#355 True German Ally

"But reconciliation can never be based on revenge.

Easy for you to say as Germany is still there. The Jewish people of Poland. Lithuania, Hungary and Holland however have been all but wiped out.

Meanwhile, your nation still pays pensions to members of the SS, and your over-fed and brutishly arrogant former Chancellor Kohl struts around Nazi graves at Bitberg.

368 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:35:51pm

#365 Ann

That was way out of line, imho, and completely inapropos.

369 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:37:09pm

Fuck reconciliation. The Allies' aim was to win, and make clear that trying the same shit again would be obscenely costly. We should not apologise, excuse me, all-but-apologise for what we did to crush Nazism.

370 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:37:30pm
371 KWH  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:39:51pm

I can feel the love, makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. No, wait, thats the peach in my pocket.

372 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:40:30pm

#365 Ann

"I have a visual of you standing at a podium, waving your arm authoritatively. With a narrow mustache.
Just like Hitler hated."

The difference of course is that the Jews of Europe have not perpetrated genocide against the German people.

Bigel has good reason for his hatred, especially in the light of the recent demonisation of Israel by many Germans. Who can forget in 1973, when Israel stood on the very brink of total disaster, that Germany refused American planes rushing emergency aid to Israel permission to overfly its territory. For that act of wickedness alone, Germany deserves our eternal contempt.

373 Ann  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:40:36pm

#368 Thom
I apologize if you took it that way. When I see mullahs, films of Hitler preaching, or anyone preaching that death to all is the only answer, I get a chill.

Again, I apologize if I have offended anyone.

374 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:41:26pm

365:

Ann...

You can't accuse Bigel of that...because according to some here he has reason to be that misguided and hateful (although I've yet to meet someone like him outside the net).

Sorry getting cynical here...and this may be out of the realms of what is accepted here on LGF now...

But dead innocent Germans will never make up for my family or my friends loss...

May the innocents of Brunswick rest in peace.

375 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:41:42pm
376 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:43:19pm

#364 Thom

To make my position very clear. It is very unfortunate that some have indeed drawn a "moral equivalency" between Nazi bombings and Allied bombings, notably the revisionist Nazi loving David Irving (passionately hated by me), who has abused Dresden to tout his Nazi apologist books.

I couldn't be farther from him and others who support him.

But it was very problematic for inhabitants of Dresden, Hamburg and other destroyed cities that for decades they could never openly come to terms with the cataclysmic events they lived, in fear of being accused of drawing exactly that moral equivalence you mentioned.

And some, because of that, have been enbitterred to a point to see that equivalence. A honest discussion could have avoided this. And with the children and grandchildren, this discussion is even more necessary, or some of them will fall for the propaganda of Mr Irving and others.

377 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:43:50pm

#374 Dave Ray

What loss?

378 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:44:47pm

#370 bigel

Don't let it bother you. I have a visual of her sitting in a chair in 1945, and listening to the radio as the news about Auschwitz comes in. Sighing, she immediately turns the dial until she finds a program more to her liking: Glenn Miller's greatest hits.

379 zygazint  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:44:55pm

#372

BRAVO, well said.

380 T. Jefferson  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:46:09pm

Tiefflieger über Dresden? Legenden und Wirklichkeit.

So may we consider something as historical truth if it is repeated over and over again? When Goetz Bergander, himself a survivor of the attacks on Dresden, published his book on the attacks in 1977[1], he used oral history sources only as far as they could be confirmed by documental proof in the archives. At that point he found out that not a single document of British or American origin supported the stories about low-level strafing attacks in Dresden. When he wrote this, he was at once fiercely attacked by many people in Germany and even some politicians, accusing him of being ignorant to "facts". In subsequent editions Bergander elaborated his research and claimed that in fact the infamous attacks had never taken place. Instead he located low-level attacks on that day at least one hundred kilometres away from Dresden. But the result of Bergander's writing was nil, as the same stories about the machine-gunning "Mustangs" circulated again, being quoted in TV shows and newspaper articles.
381 mapenguin  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:46:20pm

If the Germans are looking for an apology they need look no further than the members of the Nazi party, the SS, Luftwaffe, and the German government. Firebombings and the war itself were a direct result of the actions of the aboved mentioned. Had these animals not been permitted to commit the atrocities they did, the resultant Allies actions would never have taken place.

382 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:46:22pm

Thom:

Loss? Are you kidding?

383 Perpetual Student  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:47:41pm

#355 True German Ally

The British have never been at ease with Dresden. This is what makes them a highly civilized nation.


Self-flagellation over wartime events committed against an enemy sixty years ago is a sign of civility? Puh-leaze. The typical American doesn't concern himself over our participation in the firebombing of Dresden. Does this make us uncivilized in your eyes?

384 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:48:43pm

#376 True German Ally

An honest discussion? With the kids and grandkids? OK, it should go something like this:

We were the scum who put hitler in power and we are responsible for the ensuing horror he unleashed on the world, including the bombings of our cities by the Allies fighting and dying to rid the world of the nazi scourge. We are profoundly sorry. If you can, forgive us, and work to right our wrongs.

But no. That's too hard. Much easier just to piss and moan and, well, behave just like germany has behaved since the end of WWII.

385 Sarah D.  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:49:54pm

Back when I was in Germany ('87-91) my German neighbors (wonderful folks) daughter was 15. I gathered that the schools were not teaching her about Hitler and the Holocaust. I was very disturbed by that. I doubt it has changed.

386 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:50:13pm
387 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:50:14pm

#372 Pooh

Who can forget in 1973, when Israel stood on the very brink of total disaster, that Germany refused American planes rushing emergency aid to Israel permission to overfly its territory. For that act of wickedness alone, Germany deserves our eternal contempt.

Dangerous territory, that. The U.S. had to be blackmailed in to sending that aid. Had Israel not threatened to nuke Soviet cities, those planes would not have been in the air for the Germans to deny overflight rights.

388 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:50:47pm

#376 True German Ally

"But it was very problematic for inhabitants of Dresden, Hamburg and other destroyed cities that for decades they could never openly come to terms with the cataclysmic events they lived, in fear of being accused of drawing exactly that moral equivalence you mentione"

Then let them come to terms with their suffering by blaming the regime and the many millions of German collaborators for starting the war in the first place.

Of course the Allies made mistakes. It's simply amazing however how few mistakes they did make given that for much of the war their backs were against the wall, and they were fighting a completely ruthless and totally evil enemy.

389 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:51:14pm

#382 Dave Ray

I was just asking what loss you were referring to. Is it some kind of public knowledge that I should know?

390 abu_garcia  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:51:17pm

#343 jrdroll

My Uncle was a navigator in a B-24 in Europe and said that in the last stages of the war it was a common practice for bombers to go down on the deck and machine gun anything that moved after they had dropped their loads. Chuck Yeager reports the same of P-51 pilots in his book.

War is hell. Limited war is an oxymoron. IMO we should not go into one unless we are willing to wage it ruthlessly.

391 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:52:12pm

#377 Thom

Dave Ray is a European Jew.

392 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:53:18pm
393 Ann  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:53:25pm

I fully understand that evil had to be stopped. Just like now.
I have no patience for those who cannot determine good from evil, right from wrong.
I have a Nazi flag that my Dad brought back from WWII. It still has blood and dirt on it.
His explanation over that flag when I was 14 taught me right from wrong.
That's why I am here on LGF.

394 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:54:04pm

#380

I saw then coming up on the banks of the Elbe and the broad lawns of the Elbe (Elbwiesen) full with refugees (the place where fires didn't burn). I agree that in the heat of the day eye witnesses probably exaggerated and the shootings were occasional, not systematic. But they happened. I don't give a damn about what documents say.

But what's in an eye witness anyway? There are people who deny that a plane ever hit the Pentagon although hundreds of people saw the plane.

There were Tiefflieger over the Elbe and they were firing. That's all I can say.

395 MartinG  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:54:23pm

Iron Fist,

people bought it before he was elected because he had become famous, but it was unreadable, so they didn't read it. After he was elected it was pretty reuqired to own, so it increased sales. That doersn't mean that many read, or for that matter thta those few who believed what they read.

The fact remains: Germans didn't know where Hitler would take them.

396 zorkmidden  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:54:42pm

#393 Ann

Then you should know better than to make such comparisons as the one you did earlier.

397 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:54:46pm

#391 Colt

Ah. I should have deduced that from his name ... ?

:^/

Dave Ray - never mind. I'm sorry.

398 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:57:08pm

#395 MartinG

Even if that is true (and it sounds way too much like all the other denials the germans employ to excuse their behavior), so what?

399 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 2:59:54pm

#392 bigel

In other words, in 1973, Israel was going to use the very option that I get laughed out now when I say Israel would use it?

Pretty much. If the Israeli lines were broken, the IAF would attempt to drop nuclear bombs on Soviet cities. That'd probably start a nuclear war, so all of a sudden the U.S. had larger interest in the Arabs losing.

The amount of Soviet and Soviet-proxy troops involved in the war numbered in the tens of thousands. The casus belli was clearer than it would be today against Europe.

400 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:00:07pm

Thom:

Sorry if I was too sharp there, but this thread is annoying me already. I thought as a regular you would've known my story as I've explained where my family came from and where most of my family's friends come from...

Certain people here can write us (ie my senior family members. my children, my friends and friends of friends) off as "European" Jews or worse "British" Jews...but I was brought up in a community where nazism scarred every person I had contact with...hence my loss and hurt...

Just because I denounce the more genocidal opinions here does not mean I appease, forgive or forget what happened in the past...I just realise (unlike some) that we cannot go forward unless we stop hating everything and everyone.

401 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:01:06pm

#387 Colt

"Dangerous territory, that. The U.S. had to be blackmailed in to sending that aid. Had Israel not threatened to nuke Soviet cities, those planes would not have been in the air for the Germans to deny overflight rights."

I have no idea how true that allegation is, but the fact of the matter is that the U.S. was in an entirely different position, given that she, unlike Germany, had not been responsible for the Holocaust which had ended only 28 years earlier.

402 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:01:11pm

#397 Thom

Ah. I should have deduced that from his name ... ?

Not at all. Just FYI.

403 MartinG  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:03:10pm

Thom,

just pointing out that many actually didn't know what they were getting into.

404 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:03:20pm

#401 Pooh

the U.S. was in an entirely different position, given that she, unlike Germany, had not been responsible for the Holocaust which had ended only 28 years earlier

Ah, fair enough. But you said in #372:

For that act of wickedness alone, Germany deserves our eternal contempt.
405 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:04:33pm
I have a visual of you standing at a podium, waving your arm authoritatively. With a narrow mustache.
Just like Hitler hated.

How utterly disgusting. Shame on you, Ann.

406 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:05:56pm

#400 Dave Ray

"I just realise (unlike some) that we cannot go forward unless we stop hating everything and everyone."

All very well if everything and everyone has in fact changed. For further enlightenment on this subject, I refer you to the following article which I believe was carried by Charles some days ago:

An American in London

[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

407 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:06:34pm

"All wars are dirty wars."

Freeman Dyson

408 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:07:53pm

Colt #387

Dangerous territory, that. The U.S. had to be blackmailed in to sending that aid. Had Israel not threatened to nuke Soviet cities, those planes would not have been in the air for the Germans to deny overflight rights.

Not doubting you, Colt, but my reading of the history of the Yom Kippur War is about fifteen years old and I never came across that. Where did you learn that? Is it something that's come out more recently? Just asking.

409 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:08:54pm

#400 Dave Ray

I know you're a regular, but I missed your background info. (I'm missing lots of posts - especially lately.)

This thread has me royally pissed off as well. But I definitely have a different take on the usefulness of and necessity for hatred.

Eh, enough for one night.

410 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:09:09pm

MartinG,

Few did actually read it, and those who did didn't take it seriously, since it seemed so hyperbolic.

Really? You have stats on that? I've got news for you, it's still a hot favourite amongst Jew-haters.

411 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:09:51pm

Pooh:

All very well...but read that thread and my comments on it...before directing me towards it.

412 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:09:53pm

#404 Colt


"Ah, fair enough. But you said in #372:


For that act of wickedness alone, Germany deserves our eternal contempt."

"Alone" refers not to Germany, but to the act of wickedness.

413 Rose  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:10:16pm

Born in England I feel some degree of anger that any aplogy should be offered to the Germans.
Ask for forgiveness-?? from whom" the JEWS who warned of what was happening and no one listened.
I like so many, hate to see works of great beauty destroyed but it is rank stupidity to question 60 years after the fac,t the decisions of the day.
No more time for ' plans' and 'meetings' with a dictator who wanted the world under his heel- ALLIES!!! America not interested until Britain was virtually all but crushed- Chamberlain did all that-Hitler meant to stamp Britain and Europe under his Iron Boot and his first orders on conquering Britain was destroy London and to execute the Royal Family. They already knew of Hitlers plans which is why the British people so loved them. Though Buckingham Palace bombed, they stood firm and remained in the part ruined palace with their 2 little princesses- unlike the French who cut and ran. They refused to send their daughters to Canada to safey saying what British people endured so would they, and were willing to die if it came to that with their people.
Too many of my parents family and friends died or suffered permanent injury because of Hitler.
The Germans thought nothing og bombing beautiful Coventry Cathedral, my home city Hull , flattened- my grandmother survived by a miracl she was on her doorstep talking to her neighbour a young lass holding her baby.
A balmy summers day, blue sky and the drone of a single plane- Gran felt the ground go from under her,a deafening noise and the house and her young friend no more just a crater where her home had been- for the next 20 years gran still had great beams shoring up her wall to prevent her house collapsing.
Until I left in' 64, Hull was still scarred terribly from the bombing. full of bomb sites and craters.
Germany lost the war but thanks to American Taxpayers Germay was rebuilt whilst my poor England was forced to pay its Debts under the LEND LEASE deal and kept impoverished and unable to afford to rebuild for much of the next 2 decades.
It happened- it was dreaful, but the victim apologise for fighting back!!!
Forgive---the perpertrators are all gone, but no, not forgiven
The War remembered always and the lessons learnt-NO APPEASEMENT--NOT EVER
Hate or blame the German people- no they were victims also.
Resent the current German LEADERS for their duplicity over Iraq- yes- it shows that they have learned nothing and are still not to be trusted- I suspect they are the descendants of the Third Reich, who never died jsut went into mothballs.

414 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:11:51pm
415 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:13:00pm
You can't accuse Bigel of that...because according to some here he has reason to be that misguided and hateful (although I've yet to meet someone like him outside the net).

You too, Dave Ray? You don't like what bigel has to say, fine. But to compare him to Hitler!? Shame on you too.

416 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:13:38pm

#208 a.k.a. Will

That is from either Mr Pol or Caton. I'm too tired to remember who :-)

417 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:13:52pm

I can't stay, I have to go visit my troop in the hospital.

Ann, you said it correctly. For those of you who defend bigel's hatred, you should be ashamed. His hatred is no different than our current enemy.

418 Ann  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:14:04pm

#396 zorkmidden

Then you should know better than to make such comparisons as the one you did earlier.


A plea of mass extermination is always wrong to me, zorkie.
My Dad and the guys that he served with did not believe the reports of stacks of bones from the hurried efforts at a "camp" (Berkenau, IIRC) that was heard from the Russian soldiers.
He did not go with those guys from his unit. He said that their eyes were never the same.

419 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:14:50pm

#403 MartinG

The answer to my question "so what?" is then that the germans of the time are guilty of gross negligence and willful ignorance. This is not a mitigating factor.

I tried to read Mein Kampf and it is indeed unreadable. But a few pages into the first chapter and it was pretty clear that the guy was a nut.

One would imagine that the citizenry of the time would have taken a bit more interest in a book written by a politician rising to national leadership while in prison.

Personally, I think they did. But, just like every frenchman was in the resistance, and no german had any idea about the camps, neither had they bothered to read one of the most momentous books of the 20th century.

420 MartinG  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:15:32pm

# 410 zulubaby,

I've got no hard numbers, but I have that heard from many who aren't Jew-Haters.

Btw, I didn't know that "it's still a hot favourite amongst Jew-haters".

It's 2 AM here and I'm headed for bed. I'll do a little reasearch tomorrow and post what I find, though.

421 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:16:28pm

#411 Dave Ray

"All very well...but read that thread and my comments on it...before directing me towards it."

Why am I not surprised that one of LGF's resident ostriches would, yet again, avoid the issue?

422 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:16:47pm

Martin G #395

people bought it before he was elected because he had become famous, but it was unreadable, so they didn't read it. After he was elected it was pretty reuqired to own, so it increased sales. That doersn't mean that many read, or for that matter thta those few who believed what they read.

I read that several times and suppose it must be true, but I've never understood why the governments of Europe and the US seemed so clueless for several years. You'd think the intelligence services, war deparments and executives would have availed themselves of what Hitler had to say as he made one bold move after another.

423 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:17:34pm

#417 reaganite

So bigel is ... just like hitler?

424 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:18:09pm

#412 Pooh

Okay. Way too tired to debate what you meant by whatever :-)

#414 Iron Fist

The SS do have cool uniforms. Death's Head, solid black, swastika, Iron Cross, I mean, wow! What's not to like?

Random fact: SS uniforms were designed by one of the huge Italian fashion designers. Can't for the life of me remember which one, though. Zulubaby - can you list some big ones for us?

425 MartinG  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:19:22pm

Thom,

wilfull ignorance? Very likely a factor, people were hoping that he would put Germany on its feet again, and didn't want to know anythin to the contrary.

Any, good night.

426 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:19:32pm

reaganite is another one who thinks comparing LGF posters to Hitler is acceptable. Lovely. I don't remember the last time I was so thoroughly disgusted.

427 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:19:43pm
Zulubaby - can you list some big ones for us?

And remember the context ;-)

428 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:21:08pm

Colt, Hugo Boss.

429 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:21:29pm

#423 Thom

So bigel is ... just like hitler?

How many times has he advocated nuking Europe? Sounds like genocide to me.
Now I really have to go.

430 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:22:26pm

Zulubaby:

"But to compare him to Hitler!? Shame on you too."

I'm comparing him to any psycopath that preaches mass slaughter. No man has the right to do that...Bigel has no better reason than any other apart from his own madness...

My point was that people that have lost...and I mean people that are old enough to have lost at first hand...do not share the same hatred.

An idiot is an idiot no matter what his age, race or religion.

Reaganite summed it up in this statement...

"For those of you who defend bigel's hatred, you should be ashamed. His hatred is no different than our current enemy."

Zulubaby, I honestly respect you greatly...but this is something we will always disagree about. I have no middle ground when mass murder is the topic of conversation.

431 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:22:53pm

#428 zulubaby

Nope. Was Armani around in the 30s? I think it was them.

432 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:23:02pm

#426 zulubaby
I really hate to say this to a long time LGFer, but you can KMA. You defend bigel's genocidal comments like a L³ defends Lurch.

433 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:23:17pm

Unbelievable. I'm actually shaking. I can't believe that on LGF of all places, bigel, a Jew, was just compared to Hitler. I could be sick.

434 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:23:26pm

#426 zulubaby

Nobody should compare anyone with Hitler, including U.S. presidents and LGF Posters.

No LGF poster should regret that another LGF poster, his city, his country wasn't wiped out by nuclear bombs 60 years ago.

Can we agree on that?

Because if we can't I have no business here.

435 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:23:46pm

#425 MartinG

An ignorant electorate is unforgivable. All they had to do was read the damn book.

It's not even like the typical politicians who lie their asses off. This guy laid it all out for the world to see.

#426 zulubaby

I'm there, and beyond. :(

436 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:24:17pm
437 dustyroadguy  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:24:23pm

I think of a lot of adjective for mien kumph(sp) hyperbolic does even come close...

the notion that the german people didn't KNOW where hitler was taking them is flatly wrong...

438 zorkmidden  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:24:27pm

#418 Ann

So the appropriate comparison for bigel, who lost family in the camps, is Hitler? Do you realise how disgusting this is?

I'm sorry, I never thought I'd hear this on LGF.

reaganite, same goes for you.

439 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:25:07pm

Colt #416

That is from either Mr Pol or Caton. I'm too tired to remember who :-)

Fine. Maybe I'll catch Mr. Pol sometime, or maybe ask you later. I'm very interested in it. I know Nixon put US forces on highest alert for a period of time, but haven't heard about the possible blackmail.

440 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:25:59pm

"#411 Dave Ray

"All very well...but read that thread and my comments on it...before directing me towards it."

Why am I not surprised that one of LGF's resident ostriches would, yet again, avoid the issue?"

No mate...it's a simple case of not wanting to replicate arguments, discussions and posts elsewhere...

You pointed me in the direction of a thread that I'd already taken part in...why would it be productive to continue it here?

441 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:26:12pm

#436 bigel

Not taking the bait...

442 zorkmidden  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:26:34pm

zulubaby, I'm shaking too.

443 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:27:28pm
Zulubaby, I honestly respect you greatly...but this is something we will always disagree about.

You're right about that, Dave Ray. And it pleases me no end. I would never compare someone to Hitler.

444 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:27:55pm

#429 reaganite

Retaliation. After Israel is essentially destroyed. For example by the iranian nukes that the europeons are working so hard on¹. Not just for the hell of it.

¹ Huh huh huh. He said "hard on". Uh huh huh huh huh huh.

</Butthead>

445 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:28:14pm
446 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:28:27pm

#433 zulubaby

Unbelievable. I'm actually shaking. I can't believe that on LGF of all places, bigel, a Jew, was just compared to Hitler.

I agree. Bigel is more like Pol Pot.

447 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:28:42pm

reaganite, go fuck yourself.

448 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:29:13pm

#439 a.k.a. Will

I know Nixon put US forces on highest alert for a period of time, but haven't heard about the possible blackmail.

It was, for all intents and purposes, blackmail. Israel would nuke Soviet cities if the U.S. refused to supply Israel with the weapons to defeat the Arabs. Initially, the U.S. refused. Then, when Israel made their position RE hitting the U.S.S.R., the U.S. had a change of heart.

449 Colt  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:30:44pm

Then, when Israel made their position RE hitting the U.S.S.R. clear, the U.S. had a change of heart.

450 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:36:32pm
451 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:36:47pm

#434 True German Ally

No LGF poster should regret that another LGF poster, his city, his country wasn't wiped out by nuclear bombs 60 years ago.

Put it in context. You know, nazis and all that.

My opinion? Considering the german government and people today defending saddam hussein, the Marshall Plan was a dismal failure.

Rebuild the frauenkirche? I'd rather watch the rubble bounce.

That's with 20/20 hindsight of course.

452 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:37:09pm

Colt #448

Thanks. I'll do some research on that soon.

453 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:38:23pm

Zulubaby:

Did I compare him to Hitler? Did Reaganite? Ann only suggested that Bigel's blind hatred of almost everyone reminded her of a certain fascist dictator...and frankly if you advocate the mass murder of millions...well you will get lumped in with scum like that!

Perhaps you should stop blindly defending him because he's a Jew and start looking at what he's saying...

Nuking an entire continent is genocide...stop encouraging and excusing his blind hatred and his excesses.

454 MartinG  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:39:24pm

Iron Fist,

I'm no leftist, and I don't defend Nazi Germany in any form. I merely point out that many didn't know how things would turn out. So I merely dispute that Germans collectively intended to do what Hitler set out in his book.

And now I'm definitively headed for bed. Good night.
Feel free to post a response if you want to, I'm going to read in the morning.

455 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:41:35pm

#453 Dave Ray

You don't understand bigel's position. Yes, he has a savage hatred for europe.

But please read #444 before accusing him of being a wanton genocidalist.

456 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:42:08pm
457 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:42:54pm

#451 Thom

No sorry, I can't put genocide into context.
My bad. Not then and not now.

458 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:44:12pm

#450 bigel

Go suck Arafat, scumbag.

Bigel you're out of sorts. Go outside and roast some europeans. It'll make you feel better.

459 Zaideh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:44:50pm

#414 Iron Fist
"The Nazis knew how to reach into the subconscious of people like me in a way that I find terrifying. Absolutely terrifying."

You've just reminded me of something I read a few years ago.
I remember the article but I forget the author...
An Israeli Jew, he'd been standing in the courtroom during the Eichmann trial and turned to examine the beast.
A few minutes passed while he looked at this creature and listened as more of his hellish crimes were being described.
Suddenly something, an epiphany(?), happened in his mind. He began weeping and shrieking hysterically and had to be subdued & carried from the room.
Later, he described the cause of his behavior.
Trying to dovetail the horrible testimony with the man standing before him, he realized that the cognitive dissonance he was trying to work out was due to the fact that Eichmann looked & sounded so absolutely average, common, he seemed to be a NORMAL everyman human being.
Having achieved that insight, he took the inexorable next logical step to conlcude that no one is born exempt from the potential of becoming totally evil. That shattered all his erstwhile paradigms about human nature and he spent the next few months recovering from the trauma and restructuring a whole new belief system.
A similar thing had happened to me in my barn while leafing through some old mags. What triggered it was a class photo of Jewish boys in France who'd all been sent to the ovens by Klaus Barbie. One of the young smiling faces was a ringer for my 2nd born son.
The event didn't make me go hysterical but it shook me to my roots.

There but for the grace of God.
Ask not for whom the bell tolls.

Good is.
Evil is.
You can't not choose.

460 abu_garcia  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:46:27pm

For background, in the Nov., '32 elections Hitler got 30% of the votes. In March '33 after the Reichstag fire The Nazis got 44% of the vote which Hitler converted to a majority of the Reichstag by arresting the communist delegates.

No doubt, in the mid '30's many Germans were swayed to his side as he brought the economy back. According to the history books I read most Germans thought war would be avoided by bluff.

Plenty of Germans were opposed to him, just as plenty of Iraqis opposed Saddam and plenty of Iranians oppose the Mullahs.

FWIW

461 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:46:56pm

Isn't it tragic that the moral equivalence game is in such an advanced stage that some guy commenting on a blog is just like hitler?

This is what I was talking about above, TGA.

Speaking of whom:

#457 True German Ally

Crushing the living shit out of the enemy in a righteous cause is not genocide.

462 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:47:24pm

Thom:

With respect

"But please read #444 before accusing him of being a wanton genocidalist."

Bigel has advocated the destruction and murder of Europeans without the destruction of Israel...so for all your good intention the nutcase has made his bed and he has to sleep in it...

He is a wanton genocidalist (ps great term...I'll use that again)...and is proud of it!

463 Geepers  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:49:48pm

Iron Fist (#445),

Once Hitler came to power it became customary (read mandatory) to give Mien Kampf as a wedding present or a graduation present.

I can look up sales figures and quotes to that effect in William Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich if need be.

Few people actually read it. It's stupifyingly long and rambling. You've said you've read it so you must know this. Plus there are any number of actions he promoted which didn't come to pass.

Maybe more people should have read it.
Especially the people outside of Germany.

464 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:50:16pm

Dave Ray (#453)

Perhaps you should stop blindly defending him because he's a Jew

Excuse me? Is that what I do and why I do it? Thanks for letting me know, you're obviously more in touch with my thoughts than I am.

Did Reaganite?

You tell me. Here's what he wrote before he told me to kiss his ass:

Ann, you said it correctly.

You thought it was okay that Ann compared bigel to Hitler. What am I supposed to make of that?

465 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:51:14pm

#whateveritwas bigel

Europe has been openly complicit in Iran's efforts to build nuclear weapons, with the express intent of exterminating the Jews.

Anyone care to argue that?

Does anyone have any brilliant suggestions as to how Israel should respond to such a deathblow, if it should arise from the Euro/Iranian dynamic? Any ideas as to how Israel should deter such an attack?

The possibility seems to be lumbering toward foregone conclusion daily.

466 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:51:22pm

Thom (#461)

Isn't it tragic that the moral equivalence game is in such an advanced stage that some guy commenting on a blog is just like hitler?

I'm so shocked that I'm having trouble thinking straight.

467 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:54:36pm

#440 Dave Ray

"You pointed me in the direction of a thread that I'd already taken part in...why would it be productive to continue it here?"

I was pointing you in the direction of an article and not a particular thread. The actual article is not that important (a thousand others could have been adduced in evidence), but the principle is: there is no point in forgiving those who have not changed. In any event, on another level entirely, they can never be forgiven. Neither you nor I cannot forgive them; only those who were murdered can provided forgiveness, and they are not here to give it.

468 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:54:47pm

#462 Dave Ray

Bigel has advocated the destruction and murder of Europeans without the destruction of Israel...so for all your good intention the nutcase has made his bed and he has to sleep in it...

I don't think he has, but I certainly could be wrong. At this point he has to clarify his position because this is not at all how I've read him.

He is a wanton genocidalist (ps great term...I'll use that again)...and is proud of it!

No prob. But it's a $5/use fee ...

469 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:55:08pm

bigel #456

Why? Because they want a SECOND Shoah! Rafsanjani openly declared Iran would nuke Israel. Despite this, Europe continues to provide aid to their nuclear program (as does Russia, I might add).

After Rafsanjani's statement, I find it almost unbelievable that Russia and European nations continue to help Iran with their nuclear program. I'd hope the US has told Iran if their launch a nuke at Israel or anyone else that a large chunk of their nation will disappear.

470 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:56:10pm
471 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:58:26pm
472 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:59:03pm

#466 zulubaby

:(

473 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 3:59:12pm

Zulubaby:

Ann made point that Bigel's hatred reminded her of a certain dictator...not his personality, not his policies, not his religion, not his mannerisms...just his pronouncements...

Reaganite and I have always had a beef with him on that point.

Bigels comments sound racist, fascist, Islamist in their extremism. There's no denying that. Charles has warned him to that effect as well.

I know that Bigel is a good man at heart, I've argued for him not to be banned...but to accept his bullshit without argument is highly dangerous and irresponsible.

474 jpsfudimo  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:01:56pm

OT I think someone must have smacked this troll a little too hard LINK

475 JAB  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:04:31pm

#335 Albertadude,

Please understand I'm not trying to justify or condemn Dresden, but located there were the following:

The Zeiss-Ikon optical factory (military gunsights),
a Siemens glass factory (military gunsights), factories building radar and electronic components and fuses for anti-aircraft shells, while other factories produced gas masks, engines for Junkers aircraft and cockpit parts for Messerschmitt fighters.

So Dresden had military significance. How much is debatable.

This entire discussion revolves around hindsight some 6 decades after the fact. In hindsight one can argue either way about the justification of bombing that city. But this decision was made by mere mortals in the fog of war trying to end the entire horrific affair as soon as possible.

So if a mistake was made, it was under a vision clouded by uncertainty during the most horrific war this world has ever seen. We all should regret that it was deemed necessary, but the only apology owed anyone about Dresden should come from Hitler and gang.

476 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:04:39pm

#453 Dave Ray


"Perhaps you should stop blindly defending him because he's a Jew and start looking at what he's saying..."

And perhaps you would elicit less hostility, if you didn't argue like an East-End barrow boy.

477 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:05:03pm

It's been said many times that Iran's nuclear facilities are underground and would be very difficult to destroy. From this small picture at the BBC there's seems to be quite a lot above ground. Does anyone know what is suppossedly underground and why this facility would be so difficult to destroy?

I hope both Israel and the US have plans already worked-out to destroy it soon after 11/2.

478 abu_garcia  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:05:57pm

#465 powderfinger

Europe has been openly complicit in Iran's efforts to build nuclear weapons, with the express intent of exterminating the Jews.
Anyone care to argue that?

That depends. If you mean that the Mullahs intend to exterminate the Jews I would not argue.

LLL's live in a delusional world where kind thoughts and singing Kumbaya have charms to "soothe the savage beast". While I acknowledge that it takes a lot of willful denial to overcome the cognitive dissonance that such a belief must engender, I do not doubt that those delusions are sincerely held.

The LLL's think appeasement will bring peace. Nothing new there.

I am sure the LLL's of Europe and America would be just as "shocked" as Jimmy Carter if the Mullahs vaporized Israel.

FWIW

479 Pooh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:08:57pm

#473 Dave Ray

"Ann made point that Bigel's hatred reminded her of a certain dictator...not his personality, not his policies, not his religion, not his mannerisms...just his pronouncements..."

What total garbage. We all know exactly what she meant, and what you were agreeing with.

480 abu_garcia  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:10:14pm

I would like to reword #478

I am sure that a significan number of the LLL's of Europe ...etc.

481 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:11:18pm
And perhaps you would elicit less hostility, if you didn't argue like an East-End barrow boy

...I've been called plenty of things in my life...most I've shrugged off...but never...and I mean never accuse me of being East-End...that's out of order.

PS If opposing a genocidal nutcase by calling him out on his bullshit is arguing like a barrow boy...so be it.

482 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:13:07pm
483 Zaideh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:13:13pm

Bigel
"Please read this, written by a liberal-left New York arts critic:"

I did.
The author elucidated and validated something I've sensed for a long time. I wish he hadn't. I feel sick.


To all on this thread:
The moonbats will surely download this thread and put it under their pillows.

484 ddd  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:14:34pm

The British should apologize and take a lot of blame for preventing Jews escaping the holocaust to the land promised as the Jewish homeland. For fomenting Arab murder against Jews, for supplying troops to Arab murders in Jordan, Egypt, etc.

485 Ann  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:14:54pm

zorkmidden, zulubaby, and everyone else that I have offended:

Now that I have stopped crying, and I am not normally prone to tears... it was not my intention to offend anyone.

bigel just wants to kill people. It's irrational. Hitler wanted the final solution too, and I am fully aware of the Arab/Nazi connection.
No, I do not respect an extermination solution from anyone.
And I never will.

I am saddened by the split that I see here.

Good Night. I hope that we don't have a scar.

:(

486 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:16:57pm

From the Bigel dance of death collection:

Europe is a filthy, irredeemable, Nazi shithole that should be at the top of Israel's Samson Option list. Even over Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, or any other Muslim country.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
487 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:17:35pm
488 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:17:58pm

Dave Ray (#473)

Ann made point that Bigel's hatred reminded her of a certain dictator...not his personality, not his policies, not his religion, not his mannerisms...just his pronouncements...

Did she really? Let's see what she wrote.

I have a visual of you standing at a podium, waving your arm authoritatively. With a narrow mustache.
Just like Hitler hated.

No, not "a certain dictator" -- Hitler. That is offensive in the extreme. You're not only defending Ann, you agreed with her. Do you understand that there are limits? Do you understand that there is such a thing of crossing the line? If you don't understand how wrong that comparison is, and why, then there's really nothing left to say.

Bigels comments

... haven't killed 6,000,000 Jews!

but to accept his bullshit without argument is highly dangerous and irresponsible.

Then argue his points with him instead of telling him that he reminds you of Hitler. I thought it was the liberals that engaged in this shit. What a disappointment. Shame on you and shame on anyone who thinks this is acceptable. Wake up already! What will it take for you to wake up? Iran is going to nuke Israel, all around the world people are screaming "death to the Jews", Europe is using every avenue available to destroy Israel ... why don't you believe any of this? Why are you so determined to deny that this is happening?

489 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:19:39pm
490 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:20:12pm

Ann:

Some of us (and it seems like a minority at the moment)...got what you meant. Don't take the backlash here to heart. You made a valid point about the kind of hatred that seems to be allowable here.

Bigel:

I'd be a better poster if I slept? Fair enough. You'd be a better poster if you thought before you posted.

491 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:20:35pm

#485 Ann

LGF is deeply scarred, and has been for some time - so don't take it personal. It's not your fault.

But comparing people to hitler just doesn't help, especially when the person you're comparing to hitler actually has a bit of a family history with hitler.

Again, bigel is not calling for gratuitous genocide. If I'm reading him correctly (and he'd damn well better come back and affirm or deny this) he's talking about a retaliatory strike, not a first strike.

492 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:22:07pm

#478 abu_garcia

Right. I was wondering if anyone here wanted to argue that.

Of course there are those that think giving the mullahs a new puppy would solve everything.

493 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:22:46pm
494 Geepers  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:23:43pm

a.k.a. Will (#477),

See here for a listing of the dozens of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons facilities.

Click on the links for analysis and satellite imagery, like this one for Bushehr and you can even see their pools and tennis courts.

And yes we have plans for taking them out.

495 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:23:44pm

#486 jrdroll

Yes, retaliation against the spineless cowards who made the islamo-nuke possible.

Why is this such a difficult concept? Because most of us are of european descent?

496 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:25:03pm

Zulubaby:

" Do you understand that there are limits?"

Yes I do. You obviously don't. If only you called Bigel out when he advocates the slaughter of millions...while you pick on others who argue with his vile pronouncemnets! You disgust me almost as much as him.

Please leave it there.

497 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:26:28pm
498 Zaideh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:27:43pm

#487 Iron Fist
Well said.
But I'm thinking that you're under the impression that I was writing about you. I wasn't. I was writing about nature of Man and the never ending attempt to understand & solve the concepts of Good vs Evil. Your post just reminded me of that article is all.
Like you, (I think), I'm prone to dark, violent thoughts and have to remain vigilant to not be consumed by that slobbering, bloody fanged little beast that lives within me.
You seem to have learned to control your beast and to use it.
I prefer to keep mine caged.
So far, so good.

499 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:27:47pm
500 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:27:50pm

#486 jrdroll

You do understand the Samson Option, don't you?

#488 zulubaby

Then argue his points with him instead of telling him that he reminds you of Hitler. I thought it was the liberals that engaged in this shit. What a disappointment. Shame on you and shame on anyone who thinks this is acceptable. Wake up already! What will it take for you to wake up? Iran is going to nuke Israel, all around the world people are screaming "death to the Jews", Europe is using every avenue available to destroy Israel ... why don't you believe any of this? Why are you so determined to deny that this is happening?

Yup.

501 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:29:05pm
502 zorkmidden  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:29:12pm

#485 Ann,

It was not anyone's intention to make you cry. I would like to believe that it was an unfortunate remark on your part and it was really inappropriate but that's not the point of this post.

The comparisons of Jews to Nazis or a Jew to Hitler are like a kick in the stomach. This is the best way I can explain it. I felt the same kick when I read your comment, because I didn't expect to see such a thing on LGF. These comparisons I see all the time at the hate sites where I hang out at, sometimes. So you can understand how shocking it is to hear it on LGF.

I've always considered LGF a safe haven for Jewish people. Even Jewish people whom we may not like.

And if you would like to confront people who are set on exterminating another whole group of people, visit Liberty Forum. I will not link to them here. But they're the ones who are genocidal, not bigel.

503 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:29:26pm

#493 bigel

That's the tragedy. No other country in the world has to put up with the immense quantities of shit lobbed at Israel. Perhaps the most moral nation on earth. It is pure, unadulterated Judenhass.

But, when the bee stings after being threatened, it loses its stinger and dies. That is what brings tears to my eyes. Not some squabble on a goddamned blog.

504 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:29:52pm

European Nations Fail Israel In 'Disappointing' Vote at U.N.

"Once again, the United Nations General Assembly has turned to theatrics and posturing instead of considering constructive contributions to improving the situation on the ground," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "We express our appreciation to those nations who joined Israel in voting against this resolution – the United States, Micronesia and the Marshall Islands – and our profound disappointment with the members of the European Union, who could not muster the courage to do the right thing and challenge this biased resolution.

"It is appalling that at this sensitive time, the General Assembly convened an emergency session to consider potential action by Israel, while refusing to seriously condemn actual ongoing acts of Palestinian terrorism."

The resolution, which called on Israel to refrain from action against Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasir Arafat, was passed 133 to 4, with 15 abstentions, during an emergency session. A similar resolution did not pass in the Security Council earlier this week. General Assembly resolutions are not binding.

U.N. Rips Israel for Rights Violations

Israel is guilty of severe human rights violations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, including "wanton destruction" of Palestinian homes, according to a U.N. report obtained by The Associated Press on Thursday.

The 18-page report was prepared by John Dugard, the U.N. representative for human rights and charges that while some of Israel's actions can be explained by security concerns, many cannot.

During operations in the Gaza Strip, Israel engaged in "massive and wanton destruction of property," the report said. "Bulldozers have destroyed homes in a purposeless manner and have savagely dug up roads, including electricity, sewage and water lines."

When Jews are blown up on buses the UN remains silent.

Shalom calls on UN to end its obsession with Israel

Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom stepped up the war of words with Iran during his address to the UN General Assembly Thursday, saying "Iran has replaced Saddam Hussein as the world's number one exporter of terror, hate, and instability."

The international community, Shalom said, "now realizes that Iran with missiles that can reach London, Paris, Berlin, and southern Russia does not only pose a threat to the security of Israel, but to the security and stability of the whole world."

Shalom's comments to the General Assembly followed by a day remarks Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi made to reporters at the UN that "Israel is always a threat not only against Iran, but all countries in the Middle East."

Regarding the possibility of an Israeli attack on Iran's nuclear facilities, similar to the IAF's destruction of Iraq's Osirak reactor in 1981, Kharrazi said, "Be sure that any action by Israel certainly will be reacted to by us most severely."

That same day, Shalom after meeting UN secretary general Kofi Annan urged the international community to bring the Iranian nuclear issue to the UN Security Council "in order to put an end to this nightmare."

This nightmare is not going away. Iran is going to nuke Israel and the UN and the EU are sitting on their hands. If they're not sitting on their hands, they're calling emergency meetings and writing up reports on the various ways they condemn Israel for living and breathing. It's happening. When another few million Jews are turned to ash then what? Will the world care? Does anyone care?

505 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:32:52pm

Dave Ray, what exactly about me disgusts you, eh? That I don't like someone being compared to Hitler? What are you defending here? Wake up!

...while you pick on others who argue with his vile pronouncemnets!

So it's okay when bigel is kicked around, when he's told to shut up, fuck off, that he's a psychopath and now, apparently, just like Hitler, but when I take exception to that I'm "picking on others"? Boo hoo. It breaks my heart. Really.

506 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:34:06pm

Bigel:

I hope I never have to see the crap that you imagine...doubt there's drugs strong enough.

PS please tell Thom wether you believe that revenge against Europe is only based upon an attack against Israel...

Please remember that you...

advocated the mass murder of Germans and Europeans because of WW2

advocated the murder of journalists

the slander of the British and other Europeans as Nazi-Jewkillers and as such deserved to die

...and other moronic outpourings...etc etc...

2.30am in the morning and off to bed...

507 Zaideh  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:35:16pm

Zulubaby,
yes.

508 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:35:35pm
509 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:38:30pm

Ann,

Now that I have stopped crying

I'm glad you have. I'm sure I will eventually too.

510 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:38:33pm

Is there another nation on Earth that has so many of it's neighbors refuse to recognize it's existence? (Israel)

Is there another wannabe nation on Earth that has, within it's foundational document, a call for the destruction of it's enemies? And they get to be the darlings of the EU despite being presided over by the world's oldest, stinkiest, most corrupt, genocidal terrorist dictator fouling the planet today? (Palestine)

Is there another nation whose president has promised to nuke another nation at it's earliest opportunity? (Iran)

I'm not a Jew, and I'm really fucking pissed. If I were a Jew, I can't imagine what level my desire to tell the world that my people aren't going down alone would be.

511 Mar  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:39:12pm

Dave Ray,

Just visited your site. Well done.

i see you have a link to Janes Addiction. Interesting thing about Perry Farrell, he has stated that reconnecting to his Judaism, and becoming obervant, saved his life.

512 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:39:22pm
They will care when the Israeli nukes land in Vienna, Rome, Paris, Berlin, Munich, even Moscow.

...and on that day Bigel will masturbate till his little "fella" falls off!

513 zygazint  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:40:19pm

I think it might best be summed up by that old proverb: "Fool me
once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

The first time, when the Jewish people were threatened by someone
who called for their extinction, they trusted to the "enlightenment"
values of the European people, as Philip Roth's character put it.

Civilized people wouldn't let something like that happen. Pogroms,
well yes, but death camps, extermination? Never. They're
transporting us to camps, yes, but what could it be, labor camps at
worst? The world wouldn't let such a thing happen.

Well, the world did let it happen—with extraordinary complacency, a
deaf ear, a blind eye and not a little pleasure on the part of some.
And it's clear from the reaction of Europe today that the world is
prepared, is preparing itself, to let it happen again.

first, this is from the article Bigel just mentioned- a very apropos article i might add...
i know most of you have no idea who i am - i've been an avid reader on LGF for about a year...i started posting only recently...i have been online for about 7 1/2 years and in one online group that is ironically called 'friends in community'...after 9/11 i started posting on my frustration with the arab community...and all of a sudden these 'friends' of 7 years called me a hater...i was devastated but i left withuot being banned. Since then i've been kicked off most 'political sites' and other sites for my stance on Islam and my stance on the so called 'palestinian' problem. I just wanted to say that this site and all here have been a haven for me that i never thought existed.
Anyhow, i look forward to getting to know those of you who'd like to know more of me...ive learned alot from all of you already...i lost all family but my parents to holocaust...i understand what genuine self righteous anger is...and it is a much maligned emotion, sometimes the only thing to get one out of bed in the morning...well, that's all i have, good night.

514 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:41:02pm

Zaideh, thank you. I know you do. I'm just upset, that's all.

515 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:42:04pm
516 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:42:35pm

#503 Thom

But, when the bee stings after being threatened, it loses its stinger and dies. That is what brings tears to my eyes. Not some squabble on a goddamned blog.

IIRC, the wasp lives to sting again. It also hurts a hell of a lot more than the bee.

There's a lesson in that. Be the wasp, not the bee.

517 Mar  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:43:18pm

Nuclear winter. Great we can all die.

Not going to happen. The Mullahs aren't going to nuke Israel and the Israelis are too moral to start mass killing.

518 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:44:17pm

Mar:

Always had a lot of time for Perry Farrel...a rock star who genuinely talks sense and walks the walk...

so much so he got a load of cash went over to Africa and bought a load of slaves their freedom...and before anyone says it...it was not a marketing stunt...Jane's Addiction were still on their heroin enforced hiatus at that time.

Anyone now if he's fallen fould of BDS? Haven't heard much of them lately.

519 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:44:32pm
520 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:45:24pm

#512 Dave Ray

On that day, bigel's world will end. I really don't think you have any appreciation for his emotional dilemma.

521 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:45:43pm

The guilt and responsibilities of peoples...

There is a lot to be said about the responsibility of Germany and Germans as a whole... by active participation, approval, non-interest, failure to resist.. etc.

By late 1933 Hitler was impossible to remove by institutional measures. People who criticised him, opposed him ended up in concentration camps.

Yes many (I'd say a majority of Germans) supported him, less for his war plans but for "restoring Germany's power and image in the world". Many people were antisemites, but few would have agreed with Auschwitz. The Nazis knew that very well, so they hid the extermination camps. Most didn't care that the Jewish neighbor disappeared at 4 am in the morning, and those who did shut up because they didn't want the Gestapo to fetch them in the next morning. There was a collective mania about Hitler, his mad speeches which I never understood and still can't but it was there. For me Hitler's speeches DID sound like those of the wonderful Charlie Chaplin movie. But for most Germans they didn't. It was a collective hysteria which lasted well into the war, fired by the (unfortunately) best propagandists that ever existed. The phenomenom of that hysteria was not a German thing, you could see similar things in Italy, the Soviet Union, China...

Much more to be said here but I guess it's not the place for it.

I have been a bit amazed about the treatment the Iraqi people got. They did get off the hook rather likely by "German standards". Saddam attacked Kuweit, Saddam had and used WMDs, Saddam killed hundredthousands, Saddam..."

Only Saddam? Did he walk around with his gun shooting all those people? Did he walk around with a gas canister in Halabja?

And yet, nobody has a quarrel with the Iraqi people over decades of Saddam's barbary. America went to "free the Iraqi people from Saddam's tyrrany".

And yet, tyrranies never exist without support, active, silent, resignated.

The Iraqis couldn't take out Saddam. It was tried, but failed.

The Germans couldn't take out Hitler. It was tried, but failed. In 1939, a few days into the war, a German worker, Georgt Elser, singlehanded tried to write history, by placing a bomb in a beer hall where Hitler spoke. Unforeseen Hitler left way to early, the exploding bomb would definitely have killed him.

In 1944 Stauffenberg failed, by a series of mishaps.

No, most Germans were no resistants. Few Germans wanted war in 1939... I remember how relieved Germans were about Munich. The "Peace in our Time" was not only something people in London celebrated. A cruel error.

So what about the Iraqis? Didn't they cheer when Saddam marched into Kuweit? Aren't they responsible for the torched oil fields? For all those mass graves?

522 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:45:51pm

zygazint (#513)

Well, the world did let it happen—with extraordinary complacency, a deaf ear, a blind eye and not a little pleasure on the part of some. And it's clear from the reaction of Europe today that the world is prepared, is preparing itself, to let it happen again.

Yes, this time with nukes.

523 Geepers  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:48:05pm

Iron Fist (#501),

The Germans were well controlled by propaganda, spies and closed boarders. The perfect storm of the fascist state it seems today.

Those on the outside truly have no excuse, except willful blindness.

He bluffed his way throught the opening stages with outright lies, threats and intimidation while the Chamberlins' who wanted to avoid another "world war" created something far worse; an actual global war.

Sounds familliar doesn't it?

524 Dave Ray  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:48:18pm

Bigel:

If you and other nuclear holocaust fantasists had your way...my neck of the woods would be under a mushroom cloud...so you're right I'd be doing very little. Sat in a room with my family, friends and small children...waiting for the world to end. Thank you and goodnight.

525 Mar  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:49:59pm

Dave,

I don't know if Perry has BDS. I do know that he visited Israel fairly recently and enjoyed his visit.

526 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:50:11pm

#521 TGA

So what about the Iraqis? Didn't they cheer when Saddam marched into Kuweit? Aren't they responsible for the torched oil fields? For all those mass graves?

They surrendered, or they ran. Hell, they surrendered to CNN crews. They were largely the epitome of unwitting combatants.

The Germans fought like hell. For hitler.

527 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:50:17pm

#516 Powderfinger

Well, that's the second aspect of the tragedy. Israel is a bee, not a wasp. It has one shot.

One.

I hope they can complete their trans-species-mogrification very quickly.

528 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:50:29pm

Geepers #494

Thanks for that link. Very interesting, but I'm still puzzled as to why there have been several discussions here and elsewhere about how much more difficult the Iranian nuke facility woud be to destroy than the Iraqi. There has been talk of bunker busters and those nuclear bunker busters Kerry would half research on immediately. But it's no important matter. I'd just like to see them destroyed by whatever means.

529 zygazint  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:50:39pm

#522

well, i pray not. however, this time we will not go to the slaughter as lambs. perhaps we are allowed some of our own hatred, though, to be sure it would be best if we could find a way to turn that hatred around. it is why the jews are still around, imo, that we have our humanity.
i just read that recently and it resonated.

530 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:54:57pm

#521 True German Ally

And yet, nobody has a quarrel with the Iraqi people over decades of Saddam's barbary. America went to "free the Iraqi people from Saddam's tyrrany".

Oh, I have a quarrel with the iraqi people. And I am furious with my President and his bullshit rhetoric about "the brave iraqi people".

They're not brave, they're goddamned cowards.

531 bigel[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:55:16pm
532 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:55:41pm

To Bigel and its appologists:


#5 Charles 6/25/2004 07:22PM PST

bigel: there are still many people in Belgium who are decent, and don't want to see another Holocaust.

I know some of them.

Yes, there's a big problem in Europe, just starting to be recognized.

But please. Tone it down.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

533 abu_garcia  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:57:43pm

#517 Mar

The Mullahs aren't going to nuke Israel

Why not?

534 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:58:30pm
Everyone who studies Israeli nuclear strategy knows about the "Samson Option." This is generally thought to be a last resort strategy wherein Israel's nuclear weapons are used not for prevention of war or even for war-waging, but simply as a last spasm of vengeance against a despised enemy state that had launched massive (probably unconventional) countercity and/or counterforce attacks against Israel. Faced with the "End of the Third Temple," Israel's leaders would decide that the Jewish State could not survive, but that it would only "die" together with its pertinent enemies.

The view of the "Samson Option" from the Arab/Iranian side is clear. Israel may resort to nuclear weapons only in reprisal, and only in reprisal for overwhelmingly destructive first-strike attacks. Correspondingly, anything less than an overwhelmingly destructive first-strike will elicit a measured and proportionate Israeli military response. Moreover, by striking first, the Arab/Iranian enemy knows that it would have an advantage in "escalation dominance," allowing it/they to control the "ladder" of escalation. These calculations would follow from the informed enemy view that Israel will never embrace the "unorthodox" on the strategic level, that its actions will likely always be reactions, and that these reactions will always be limited.

535 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:59:16pm

#526 Powderfinger

Who did the Iraqis marching into Kuweit fight for?

The Germans in 1944/45 didn't fight for Hitler, but for survival. At least they thought so. They had nothing to expect from the enemy marching into their country.

Those who didn't fight were hanging from trees in 1945.

536 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 4:59:42pm

#527 Thom

If they sting first, they'll get at least two. You know I'm thinking Iran.

I think that's coming somewhere around Nov 3. At least I hope so.

537 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:01:24pm

#532 jrdroll

Yes. Charles asked him to tone it down. I've suggested he tone it down, as have others.

But look carefully - how does the "I know a few good europeons" argument differ from the "I know a few good moslems" argument?

It doesn't. The enemy is the enemy.

538 transferthem  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:02:21pm

The LLL merry go round has really gone full circle when it proclaims being nice to nazis as PC. Then again, they love the new arab and muslim nazis so why not be nice to the old german ones? After all, their only crime is wanting to wipe out the Jews, and who would argue with that in the twisted mindset world of the LLL?

539 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:02:36pm

#535 TGA

Fight? In Kuwait?

What fight?

540 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:03:05pm
As the hordes of invading troops still threaten to overrun Israel, the Israelis will likely opt to exercise their military strategy known as the "Sampson Option." This is a contingency plan drafted by Israel after their War of 1973, when a surprise attacked by Arab nations on the Day of Atonement nearly resulted on the unprepared, outnumbered Jews being overrun by much greater Arab armies.

So prime minister Golda Meier and her war ministers passed a desperate plan ordering that any future Israeli government that sees enemy armies overwhelming their soldiers by sheer numbers, that government must resolve to unleash Israel's considerable arsenal of nuclear weapons against the invading nation's major cities. They called this desperate tactic the "Sampson Option" after their Biblical strongman Sampson.

As described in the Book of Judges, Sampson was captured and blinded by his Phillistine enemies. Chained the pillars of the great Phillistine temple, and being mocked and tortured by a hostile gathering of notables, Sampson tore down the supporting pillars and caused the roof to crush everyone present, himself along all his enemies. In this case, when Israel was faced with inevitable destruction, they have vowed to use all their nuclear might against their enemies, even if they would be destroyed along with the attackers.

541 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:03:25pm

bigel #471

Why does that surprise you? Name the one thing Europe has been able to collaborate and agree on in the last 500 years?

I have to admit that I've often been surprised at European actions over the years. Of course, France has always been France, but what seemed like very close Cold War alliances for most of my life started seeming more like enemy of my enemy alliances once the USSR fell. And it seems more that way with each passing year, maybe with the exception of Great Britain.

And the Euro coziness with the Arab world seemed stranger and stranger, but I think Bat Ye'or's writing on the Euro-Arab dialogues has cleared up a great deal. Being a WASP with no real connections to Europe, I can't very well assess the role of historic and current anti-semitism behind some of their actions, but there could be a good amount of truth in what you say.

542 trigger girlie  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:07:36pm

211 Potiers Lepanto, are you outraged? So was I when I found out that a rapper KRS One, that stated that he was happy that 911 happened, is going to speak at Washington Louis Univerity October 31 (?). I emailed them, expressing how I feel, but (obviously) have not got the answer. This spreads like a fuckin disease.

543 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:08:39pm

#471 bigel

Name the one thing Europe has been able to collaborate and agree on in the last 500 years?


Units of measurement, the division of the world into time zones, physics, chemistry, mathematics, railroads,
telegraphy, geology, geography to name a few.

544 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:10:48pm

Germany, France, Britain: Send Nuclear Tech to Iran

Our friends, the Saudis Europeans.

545 Geepers  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:13:10pm

a.k.a Will (#528),

I would suspect because of the scope of the project which aims at being self-sufficient as to be able to extract, purify, enrich, build and launch.

Anyone who can't recognize what they are doing past their lies is willfully blind.

We can shut them down. A few different ways.

The nuclear "bunker buster" bombs are being designed for deep penetration. They increase the effective yield of the explosion through two means. First rock transfers shock far better than air, and the surface reflects the shock back down. Thus you can use a much smaller payload. And contain a vast majority of fallout.

Nuclear has the added benefit of reaching the 1,000 degree plus Celsius temp/time requirements to destroy chemical and biological stockpiles without releasing them as an after effect of conventional bombing.

The argument is that this will encourage the use of nuclear arms.

546 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:13:34pm

#539 Powderfinger

Do you absolve the Iraqis on the ground that the Kuwaitis didn't put up a fight?

Invasion is invasion.

Btw I don't think they were cowards because they barely fought the American troops.

That's about the same as blaming a 12 year old boy for not boxing against Cassius Clay.

547 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:16:50pm

#540 zulubaby

It worked well for Shimson then, it will work again.

I've often thought that the best argument for the existence of G-d is the existence and history of the Jewish people.

{I'm an atheist of Polish-Lithuanian-Catholic extraction (the worst of all possible worlds), but, dammit, it really does stir the deepest emotions.}

548 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:19:03pm

Iran demands European support on nuclear technology

Iran is demanding Europe's leading powers back its right to nuclear technology that could be used to make weapons, dismaying the Europeans and strengthening Washington's push for U.N. sanctions, a European Union official and diplomats said Monday.
Declining to respond to a list of demands presented by Iran last week - whose contents were made available to The Associated Press - the Europeans are urging the Iranian government to instead make good on a pledge to clear up suspicions about its nuclear ambitions.

But diplomats said Iran's demands undermine the effort by France, Germany and Britain to avoid a confrontation. They had hoped to persuade Tehran to give up technology that can produce nuclear arms, but now are closer to the Bush administration's view that Iran should be referred to the U.N. Security Council for violating the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, the diplomats said.

The Iranian list, presented during talks in Paris, includes demands that the three European powers:

- Support Iran's insistence its nuclear program have access to "advanced technology, including those with dual use," which is equipment and know-how that has both peaceful and weapons applications.

- "Remove impediments" - sales restrictions imposed by nuclear supplier nations - preventing Iran access to such technology.

- Give assurances they will stick by any commitment to Iran even if faced with "legal (or) political ... limitations," an apparent allusion to potential Security Council sanctions.

- Agree to sell Iran conventional weapons.

- Commit to push "rigorously and systematically" for a non-nuclear Middle East and to "provide security assurances" against a nuclear attack on Iran, both allusions to Israel, which is believed to have nuclear arms and which destroyed Iraq's nuclear reactor in a 1981 air strike to prevent it from making atomic arms.

France, Germany and Britain last year had held out the prospect of supplying Iran with some "dual use" nuclear technology, but only in the distant future and only if all suspicions about the Iranian program were laid to rest.

549 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:24:58pm

#543 jrdroll

Standardized dickweeds.

I've worked with the europeons on standardization issues and they are pompous assholes. The only reason a number of the europeon delegations haven't returned home from their condescending performances in the States is because of the forbearance and professionalism of 'Murkans like me.

'yurp eats ass.

550 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:27:26pm
haven't returned home from their condescending performances in the States with black eyes ...

Duh.

Ya see? That's what "not pompous" looks like!

dB^)

551 Mar  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:31:29pm

533,

I think the Mullah's are mad but not suicidal. IMO they are more than happy to have hezbollah carry out their wishes by proxy and know full well if they directly attack Israel they will in turn get bombed.

552 papijoe  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:34:35pm

I often think bigel is over the top, but the more I learn, the more I respect, if not his point of view itself, the pain that goes with it.

How many of us could look the prospect of the extinction of our people, our way of life straight in the eye and not look for a way to fight back?

Not all Jews went quietly onto the trains. Some fought in the Warsaw ghettoes, some escaped to become partisans living in the forests.

bigel would have been one of the ones that fought.

553 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:38:04pm

#546 TGA

Do you absolve the Iraqis on the ground that the Kuwaitis didn't put up a fight?

No. We went and booted them out, didn't we? A great many of them did not live to invade again.

My point is that when the fight became a fight, many of them were not willing to die for Saddam. Can't say that about the Third Reich and hitler, can we?

554 Raziel (Troll Devouring Blader)  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:39:32pm

Zulubaby

With all this talk of the End of the World, do you and other jewish and non-jewish LGF'ers here believe in the Hope that Israel will Survive and Win the looming IslamoLeftist Aggression?

555 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:39:53pm

#551 Mar

Yeah they'll get bombed, after bombing Israel. CNN, BBC, et al news crews will rush out to the poor iranian fuckheads and post stories about the evil Israelis.

No - the mullahs are not suicidal. But they play us like van Cliburn plays Tchaikovsky's Concerto No. 1.

556 Mar  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:40:57pm

papijoe 552,

AG is also a Jewish poster who lost family in the Holocaust and served in the IDF.

I have never seen him post anything hateful nor wishing for mass destruction.

557 Thom  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:43:22pm

G'night all.

558 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:44:10pm

Bush signs global anti-Semitism law

US President George W. Bush said he had signed into law a bill requiring the State Department to monitor global anti-Semitism and rate countries annually on their treatment of Jews.
"This nation will keep watch; we will make sure that the ancient impulse of anti-Semitism never finds a home in the modern world," Bush said as he campaigned in the key battleground state of Florida. The state's Jewish population is the third largest in the world after Israel and New York.

The US State Department had opposed the legislation, saying it was unnecessary as the department already compiles such information in its annual reports on human rights and religious freedom.

"Defending freedom also means disrupting the evil of anti-Semitism," Bush told thousands of cheering supporters packed into a sports arena usually used by the Florida Panthers professional ice hockey team.

"Today, I signed the Global Anti-Semitism Review Act of 2004. This law permits the government to keep a record of anti-Semitic acts throughout the world, and also a record of responses to those acts," he said.

Thank you, President Bush.

559 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:46:18pm

Raziel (Troll Devouring Blader), I've always had a complete and steadfast belief that come what may, Israel will survive. Lately I'm not so sure.

560 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:48:58pm

Thom,

{I'm an atheist of Polish-Lithuanian-Catholic extraction (the worst of all possible worlds)

And one of the best people, ever :-)

561 papijoe  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:50:42pm

#556 Mar

I can only speak for myself.

I can't condemn bigel because I don't know that I would respond any better in his circumstances.

And the more I learn about Europe, the harder it is to refute his opinion of it.

Nor do I approve of calls to nuke Europe.

Not when there are still a few righteous Gentiles:

Polish Couple Honored

562 Promethea  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:52:44pm

True German Ally . . .

MartinG . . .

Why haven't the Germans worked harder to defend Israel against the Arabs and the terrorists?

You should both click on Bigel's link in #470, if you haven't already.

I'm a great believer in forgiveness, kindness, justice, and peace on earth. But you should be aware that if Israel is destroyed, the Europeans will also be destroyed.

This is my prophecy and my promise.

563 Raziel (Troll Devouring Blader)  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:56:46pm

559)Zulubaby

Here is an Article that should at lease help the doubt a bit.

564 papijoe  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:58:48pm

#559 zulubaby

I've always had a complete and steadfast belief that come what may, Israel will survive. Lately I'm not so sure.

As you have been an object of cursing among the nations, O Judah and Israel, so will I save you, and you will be a blessing. Do not be afraid, but let your hands be strong
Z'kharyah 8:13

565 Mar  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 5:58:51pm

papijoe,

I read Martin Gilbert's The Righteous and there are many but not enough.

Great book btw

566 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:00:18pm

I'm back. I'll ask a couple of simple questions.

Muslims hate the Jews and want to eliminate them from the world. Bigel wants to eliminate the Euros from the face of the earth. How are these two views different?

Bigel condemns almost every nation as "Jew hating genocidal cesspools". The Islamics say the same thing except they count everyone including the Jews.

Question one, Is genocide better when one group does it?

Question two, If you are as irrational as your enemy, are you sane?

567 Maine's Michael  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:02:53pm

WTF happened on this thread?

Glad I wasn't around.

Love 'im or hate 'im, there's no question Bigel's a polarizing poster.

568 Raziel (Troll Devouring Blader)  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:03:42pm

Sorry PIMF Link does not work.

here is another Link

569 trigger girlie  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:04:12pm

Comapring bigel to Hitler? sick.
All the things said by bigel are out of pure desperation, like the one I always get when I read on a daily basis blatant attacks on Israel and the Jews, when I see pamphlets comparing Israel to Aouth Africa or Nazi Germany, when I hear about Frenchies defacing Jewish cemetaries and sinagogues. Something tells me bigel would not round up little blue eyed children and put them on a train. The comparisons are disgusting.

570 papijoe  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:05:04pm

565 Mar

I'll put that on my reading list


G'night all.

571 Raziel (Troll Devouring Blader)  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:08:10pm

Also (me) now getting to the point. LOL

The Hidden Midrash of Yalkut Haro’im
from a d'var Torah by Rabbi Ben Zion Sobel

“My grandfather on my mother’s side,” began the Rav (Rabbi Ya’akov Teitelbaum zt”l), “was a regular guest in the home of the great Rizhiner Rebbe zt”l. I heard from him that the Rizhiner would often say that just like a fire descended from heaven for Eliyahu the Prophet on Mount Carmel (validating the Torah and invalidating the Baal worshipers, as is related in Melachim I,18:39), so too, before the coming of the Mashiach a fire will descend, but this time, for the Prophets of Baal, and it will be as difficult (for the Jews) as scaling a straight wall to cling to the faith.

"...Through wondrous Providence, I soon realized that I had this same hidden Midrash in my home, in a very old book, called Yalkut Haro’im

And Israel will say to the king of the Arabs, “The Holy Temple is ours - take gold and silver, and leave the Temple to us.”

And the Arab king will say “You have no claim to this Temple. However, if you will first choose an offering, as you did in days of old, and we will also present an offering. And we will all become part of the nation whose offering is accepted.”

Israel will present their offering and it will NOT be accepted, because Satan will prosecute us in front of Hashem.

And the sons of Kedar will present their offering and it will be accepted, as the verse states: “All the sheep of Kedar will gather together to you.”

Then, the Arabs will say to Israel, “Come, believe in our faith.”

And Israel will answer, “We will kill, or be killed, but we will not Deny the Essence.”

Then, swords will be unsheathed, bows will be drawn, arrows will be fired, and corpses will be felled from the Gate of Efraim till the Gate of Pinah. And Nechemiah (most probably, Mashiach ben Yosef) will be among those that are killed.

Those who escape will flee to the desert of Moav and to the land of the Sons of Amon. There, the Israeli refugees will remain, and Hashem will perform miracles for them there, and a wellspring will emerge from the depths, etc., and they will eat the roots of thorn bushes, for forty five days. At the end of forty five days, Eliyahu and King Mashiach will sprout from there...

"Rabbi Teitelbaum commanded me to publicize this matter in order that we should prepare ourselves, sons, daughters, grandchildren, students and friends to strengthen our faith and trust in Hashem, so that we not be influenced by any test, heaven forbid..."

572 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:08:31pm

#569 trigger girlie

Something tells me bigel would not round up little blue eyed children and put them on a train.

No, eye color, hair color, or even race has nothing to do with it. If you live in Europe, bigel wants you dead.

I am amazed at how many people here ignore that point that he has made thousands of times.

Anyone defending bigel should be ashamed of themselves.

573 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:09:46pm
Muslims hate the Jews and want to eliminate them from the world. Bigel wants to eliminate the Euros from the face of the earth. How are these two views different?

bigel isn't talking first strike. bigel isn't making things up about Europe.

bigel seems to think that Europe is actively working, once again, to destroy Jews. Therefore, he's not talking about genocide, he's talking about deterrance and/or retribution.

I wish I could prove him wrong, but the evidence supports his argument.

574 Maine's Michael  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:12:01pm
Question one, Is genocide better when one group does it?

I think becomes acceptable when the group that does it does it in true self defense and as a measure of last resort.

I think that is the sense in which Bigel advocates it.

There's no question in my mind that any nation that aids or is complicit in the development of a doomsday weapon deployed against the jews becomes a legitimate target for annihilation by the jews.

Legitimate.

575 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:13:58pm

#573 Powderfinger

bigel isn't talking first strike. bigel isn't making things up about Europe.

Amazing, you ignore what he says, defend him, then blame Europe.

Look this is simple. If you read 1 in 10 of bigel's posts you can't help but miss his intentions. If you claim otherwise you're being dishonest.

576 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:16:08pm

#574 Maine's Michael

There's no question in my mind that any nation that aids or is complicit in the development of a doomsday weapon deployed against the jews becomes a legitimate target for annihilation by the jews.

He doesn't advocate a nation, he advocates a continent.

577 Maine's Michael  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:17:11pm

Z'babe,

MartinG, I don't hold you, MartinG, personally responsible for the Holocaust but sorry, if you're pissy about your country's history, be pissed at Hitler, not at me or the rest of the world. It's your history to deal with and the consequences of that history has taken a greater toll on the Jews than it has on the Germans. Forgive me the lack of sympathy.

I'm late to the party, but that was very well said.

578 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:17:34pm

#573 powderfinger

Therefore, he's not talking about genocide, he's talking about deterrance and/or retribution.

It talks about needing a reason to exterminate all the people in Europe. His defense on this thread is that it is the context of the so called "Samson" option. It is really sick to fantasize about the destruction of Israel just to be allowed to carry out genocide.

In its own words:


Europe is a filthy, irredeemable, Nazi shithole that should be at the top of Israel's Samson Option list. Even over Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, or any other Muslim country.

This is a continent full of truly psychotic, degenerate, Nazi Jewkillers. Most are truly sick, disgusting and beyond any redemption.

And that goes for "new Europe" as well.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

579 Sarah D.  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:21:06pm

#414 Iron Fist

I suppose I was lucky...in a way. Catholic and Episcopalian schools for my younger life. The true mental abuse came later in the public schools (not that the Catholic priests didn't try).

I remember watching with my parents, The Holocaust. It was on regular TV, maybe 2 or three nights? I was young. I had nightmares for weeks. My Mom thought it was important for us (me and my sister) to see. Grandpa is a WWII vet...Mom knew how important it was.

I also remember studying Hitler and his propaganda in school. I remember reading about the death camps. It sucked. It was heavy stuff for a kid...but it was important.

I don't have to worry what they teach my kiddo...'cause I'll teach her about hate and what is has caused in the known/remembered history of man. That's what makes us better and better. Little by little. Above the animals.

580 Maine's Michael  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:22:54pm
He doesn't advocate a nation, he advocates a continent.

Well, that's where he and I (and most people) would differ, I guess. Don't worry. He doesn't have access to the trigger. He's just venting.

The issue of collateral damage is interesting, though; to the extent that europe functions as a bloc, and nations that know what's going on and are in a position to stop it, yet choose to turn a blind eye towards the activity, well, if they got hit with collateral damage, that would just be too bad . . .

581 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:26:19pm
It is really sick to fantasize about the destruction of Israel just to be allowed to carry out genocide.

It's not fantasy. Have you read the fucking news? Iran is knocking on the door of nuclear weapons, and it's president has said straight out that Iran will nuke Israel once it gets the capability.

What part of that are you having a problem with?

582 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:29:03pm

#575 reaganite

Look this is simple. If you read 1 in 10 of bigel's posts you can't help but miss his intentions. If you claim otherwise you're being dishonest.

Show me where he says "Nuke Europe now"

Otherwise, you're being dishonest.

583 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:29:27pm

#580 Maine's Michael

He doesn't have access to the trigger. He's just venting.

And that makes it okay? By that standard anyone advocating the standards of the KKK is fine since they "don't have access to the lynching rope"?

I've been in a "few" combat zones. Killing who needed killing wasn't a problem. (I am not in a combat career field, nor have I killed anyone). I have shot at people though. But are you trying to justify killing anyone in sight just because they live there?

584 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:31:02pm

#582 Powderfinger

Otherwise, you're being dishonest.

And you sir, are being deliberately blind.

585 HenryS  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:31:10pm

It's 4:30 am in the heart of the Ummah. I wake up to do a little work on my thesis. I surf over to JPost and have to read this dreck:

Brent Scowcroft, a former US national security adviser, said in an interview with London's Financial Times that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has Bush "wrapped around his little finger."

There's no genteel way of saying this:

Fuck Brent Scowcroft

586 levi from queens  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:32:02pm

I think Bigel is being taken far too seriously here. He is one person, not a movement. I wouled guess lots of LGFers would follow Zulababe or Reaganite or Charles if they pointed out a direction. None of us would follow Bigel. He has some issues-- I have my own demons, but I would believe they are lesser demons than Bigel's. Ann was a little over the top -- Bigel is generally a little over the top.

Over the top people have some great virtues. They are generallly the first people to see new directions. And they also suggest the stupidest things. The trick is always to think through what they say.

587 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:32:20pm
and it's president has said straight out that Iran will nuke Israel once it gets the capability.

I doubt it with Trident submarines in the area.

588 Sarah D.  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:33:26pm

#81 Powderfinger

What, in your estimation, does Iran believe it will accomplish with an actual hit on Israel?

I ask because in my mind it makes no sense to actually hit Israel...because they KNOW what will happen afterwards.

Let's say for the sake of argument that Iran hits Israel with a nuke. Israel will know it's on it's way and retaliate.

Are they talking big, for the big Arab dickfest? They have it all to lose. It makes no sense to me, but Saddam never did either...and look what he had in the end...a hole.

I just don't understand it.

589 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:34:30pm

#586 levi from queens

Bigel is generally a little over the top.

I would amend that to " Bigel is insanely over the top."

590 zorkmidden  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:36:02pm

Here are some more comparisons.

The European Disease

Learning without comparisons

You can certainly argue with bigel about his points. I don't see any need to call up Hitler in that discussion.

591 Maine's Michael  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:38:20pm
But are you trying to justify killing anyone in sight just because they live there?

Of course not.

What I'm saying is that governments may be forced to take responsibility for their actions OR INACTIONS this time around.

If France blocked a truly workable solution to denuke Iran, and Iran used it's nukes, I would hold France responsible.

Now, as Fracne is a democracy, ostensibly, the popel of France are responsible for their government.

The same can be said of the palestinians, by the way. As 80% of them support their government, and their government foments terrorism and the murder of jewish children, I would say, from the purely ethical point of view, Israel would be morally justified in moving that population of murder sympathizers to a location where they do not represent a threat to their potential victims.

At this point, whether that location is east of the Jordan river, or 6 feet underground, I care not.

592 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:39:16pm

Sarah,

What, in your estimation, does Iran believe it will accomplish with an actual hit on Israel?

I ask because in my mind it makes no sense to actually hit Israel...because they KNOW what will happen afterwards.

Without digging up the quote (I'm sure zulubaby could do it in a second) Rafsanjani figures that they could wipe out Israel and still be standing after the retalliation. It helps that the Iranian government doesn't give a fuck about it's people.

It's all about the Jihad. If they can destroy Israel, and only lose half of their population, that's a win.

593 Geepers  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:39:31pm

bigel takes the use of nuclear weapons very seriously and only suggests using them as a last desperate means, like this:

Frankly, Israel would be right to obliterate the birthplace of Hitler without waiting for the Samson Option.
594 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:39:37pm

#590 zorkmidden
I hate to argue with you. Can you honestly sit there and tell me that bigel's insane rants are any different than the Muslim's or for that matter the Nazi's?

595 dustyroadguy  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:40:00pm

Words and the way they are used to convey ideas are important. Hitler was a genocidal, murderer, whose charismatic rhetorical skills and political savvy enabled him to put into action his diabolical hated of Jews because of who they ARE...

HELL is too good for him and those that supported his tyranny and slaughter...

I haven't been posting here long, however all of the posts made by Bigel that I have read seem to reflect a person who is willing and advocating that HE will do anything to insure survival. He also seems increasing upset with a seriously deteriorating situation and the west's unwillingness to deal with Islamofacist regimes and Europe’s continued blind eye toward unprovoked terrorist attacks on Israel...

Bigel is advocating kill or be killed... over the top rhetorically but Bigel is no Hitler and that comparison was a very, very, unfortunate choice...

As for TGA you are an opportunists pal...you saw a blog headline that you knew would be a feeding ground for your rants. I find your statement #332 about being not only a survivor of Dresden but also of Buchenwald to be suspect...so enjoy yourself I'll not waste time with your posts.

/JMHO DRG

596 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:41:38pm

HenryS, interesting. Apparently Brent Scowcroft isn't much of a Bush fan either.

Scowcroft Is Critical of Bush

I also found this, for what it's worth: Brent Scowcroft is Wrong: We Must Attack Saddam

597 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:41:53pm

#587 jrdroll

I doubt it with Trident submarines in the area.

So you expect the Mullahs to be rational?

Somehow, that's not comforting.

598 zorkmidden  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:42:03pm

reaganite, 6,000,000 dead Jews stand behind bigel and his rants. That's what makes it different. He has a reason to rant. The Nazis and the Muslims who are ranting against Jews have no reason at all.

599 Maine's Michael  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:42:30pm
I doubt it with Trident submarines in the area.

Surely you don't believe the US would retaliate with nuclear weapons on behalf of Israel if Israel were attacked, do you?

600 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:43:07pm

#591 Maine's Michael

If France blocked a truly workable solution to denuke Iran, and Iran used it's nukes, I would hold France responsible.

As would I.

I would say, from the purely ethical point of view, Israel would be morally justified in moving that population of murder sympathizers to a location where they do not represent a threat to their potential victims.

Again, I agree.

Where in your post did you advocate killing them all? See my point?

601 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:44:29pm

#595 dustyroadguy

He also seems increasing upset with a seriously deteriorating situation and the west's unwillingness to deal with Islamofacist regimes and Europe’s continued blind eye toward unprovoked terrorist attacks on Israel...

That's my read too. If someone would like to prove us wrong, I'd be happy to entertain the presentation.

Ad hominem isn't going to do it.

602 Sarah D.  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:46:32pm

#592 Powderfinger

Are we talking retaliation by Israel alone? I know that they are nuts...that's not part of the question. But what do they think to accomplish? Do you think they really believe that the Arab world will rally around them because they have vanquished the Jews? What about the Jews in other countries?

Hell, the Arab countries trust one another slightly more than they trust the infidels.

If Iran were to use a nuke, they would shortly be nuked by a brother Arab country...out of self-defense.

I just don't see it actually happening. The thought scares the hell out of me...but I can't see it.

603 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:47:11pm

#598 zorkmidden
I respect you. I disagree with you here. Bigel salivates with the same hatred as our enemies. I'm sorry, I will never agree with him. I will defend him when necessary.

604 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:47:46pm

RAFSANJANI SAYS MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL

One of Iran’s most influential ruling cleric called Friday on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel, assuring them that while such an attack would annihilate Israel, it would cost them "damages only".

"If a day comes when the world of Islam is duly equipped with the arms Israel has in possession, the strategy of colonialism would face a stalemate because application of an atomic bomb would not leave any thing in Israel but the same thing would just produce damages in the Muslim world", Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani told the crowd at the traditional Friday prayers in Tehran.

Analysts said not only Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani’s speech was the strongest against Israel, but also this is the first time that a prominent leader of the Islamic Republic openly suggests the use of nuclear weapon against the Jewish State.

--

"Jews shall expect to be once again scattered and wandering around the globe the day when this appendix is extracted from the region and the Muslim world", Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani warned, blaming on the United States and Britain the "creation of the fabricated entity" in the heart of Arab and Muslim world.
605 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:47:57pm

#584 Reaganite

And you sir, are being deliberately blind.

Then remove the scales from my eyes, sir.

Show me where bigel says "Just Nuke Europe"

You can't just tell me that I've missed it. You'll have to show it to me.

606 jrdroll  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:50:22pm

#597 powderfinger

So you expect the Mullahs to be rational?


#599 maine's michael

Surely you don't believe the US would retaliate with nuclear weapons on behalf of Israel if Israel were attacked, do you?

I guess the Mullah's will have to try their luck to find out.
Just seems to me that pointing missles in submarines at Moscow is a little old fashion.

607 Maine's Michael  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:52:08pm
Frankly, Israel would be right to obliterate the birthplace of Hitler without waiting for the Samson Option.

Of course that's nuts. But I believe it's mostly a rhetorical flourish, meant to mask the shame and ademosntrate the anger related to past jewish impotence and non jewish complicity in the face of the nazi enemy.

Also post traumatic stress disorder by proxy i.e. holocasut survivor's children syndrome.

Peel the onion.

608 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:52:17pm

Sarah,

If Iran were to use a nuke, they would shortly be nuked by a brother Arab country...out of self-defense.

I don't see that. If they nuked Tel Aviv, I see dancing all over the Arab Street. Then, I see Iran solidifying their position as the big kid on the block, just as Saddam was trying to do.

Israel is the naqba. Whoever eliminates it is the King of the ME.

609 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:52:41pm

#605 Powderfinger
Scroll up, #593 Geepers has a great example.

610 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:54:52pm

#598 zorkmidden

reaganite, 6,000,000 dead Jews stand behind bigel and his rants. That's what makes it different. He has a reason to rant. The Nazis and the Muslims who are ranting against Jews have no reason at all.

Bingo.

611 BPP  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:55:23pm

594 reaganite

I hate to argue with you. Can you honestly sit there and tell me that bigel's insane rants are any different than the Muslim's or for that matter the Nazi's?

As someone who has crossed keyboards with bigel on many an occasion, I can definitively say that his insane rants are indeed no different from an extremist of any background. The paranoia, the obsession with nuclear war, the maniacal hatred - of Europe, of all places - it all adds up to one seriously unhinged character.

Charles should boot him off. He adds nothing to a civilized discussion.

612 Sarah D.  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 6:58:26pm

#608 Powderfinger

I disagree. I agree that:

If they nuked Tel Aviv, I see dancing all over the Arab Street.

But after that, like the squabbling children that they are...they would immediately point weapons at one another.

613 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:01:27pm

#611 BPP

He adds nothing to a civilized discussion.

When he is rational, he adds greatly to the topics. Sadly, it's become very rare.

614 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:01:30pm

Reaganite, he's hypothesising. He's not saying "Do it."

He's expressing hatred for one of the most horrific bastards to walk the planet. He said "Israel would be right to obliterate the birthplace of Hitler"

Does that equal "Pre-emptively destroy Europe", or are you being dishonest?

615 HenryS  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:03:15pm

ZB

Yes, Scowcroft suffers from severe rectal-cranium inversion. Evidenced by his champagne toast to China's dictators after Tianneman Square and his participation in this loony scheme to outlaw pre-emptive action without UN approval. A genuine new-world-order-one-world-government freak.

616 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:04:12pm

levi from queens #586

Over the top people have some great virtues. They are generallly the first people to see new directions. And they also suggest the stupidest things. The trick is always to think through what they say.

I agree, and that's why Bigel never bothers me. I take everything he says in context of the doomsday, Samson Option plus Europe. He's like the town crier coming through to remind us of the worst that could happen. And, with the situation in Iran and the increasingly anti-Israel behaviour of the Euros, one can imagine the worst happening.

If the worst did happen and I were Israeli, those that attacked would certainly be on the receiving end, and I'd have to think about any nation that had significantly enabled the attackers.

617 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:05:36pm

#614 Powderfinger
I'm done with you tonight. If you can sit there and honestly say that bigel isn't advocating genocide I can't help you. His thousands of posts speak for themselves.

618 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:07:54pm

Reaganite, you fare much better if you'd actually point out a post where bigel says what you say he's saying.

Since you're unwilling and/or unable to do so, I guess we're done with each other.

Have a drink, and get some rest.

619 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:09:00pm

HenryS,

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan established the 16-member High-Level Panel on Threats, Challenges and Change in November to study ways to reform the 59-year-old organization so it can better address 21st-century threats to security and peace.

I'm sure Iran is heading up that panel and only because Syria is busy that month.

620 MichelefromLA  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:09:29pm

In 2000, I got this idea to home-school my daughter. We only did it for a year. But during that year I taught her a little about WWII.

I bought a set of WWII color videos. In color, it looked like film that could have been taken today, rather than history. I watched the Germans hanging people, chasing French families from their towns. There was one scene where the Germans were sitting in a French family's yard, laughing, and nibbling decadently on their grapes.

We read about the attrocities done to the Jews by Hitler. She saw the photos of little empty children's shoes stacked up near an incinerator. We read about Anne Frank's experiences of hiding from the Germans just for being Jewish. My husband wondered if I was scaring our daughter. But I told him I thought the past, in all its horror, is important to know so that it never happens again.

I never imagined the sort of denial of the not so long ago past and hatred of Jews is happening only four years later.

Just like I never imagined the blase (blah-say) mentality that is now pervasive amongst too many people - even though they saw planes flying into buildings only three years ago.

I don't get it.

621 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:10:16pm

Sarah, I think they generally bow to a strong hand. Look at their societies. The strong arm rules, always.

622 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:10:33pm

#618 Powderfinger
I pointed out bigel's posts did you ignore it or are you just being blind?

623 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:14:38pm

Reaganite, I addressed it in #614. It isn't what you'd like it to be.

Would you like to rebut that, or are we done for the evening?

624 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:16:33pm

#623 Powderfinger
As I said, scroll up to #593. Don't blame me for you missing posts.

625 BPP  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:16:47pm

Why is everyone just going along with the notion that Europe is an "enabler" of Iranian nuclear ambitions. Where's the evidence of that? Russians, certainly. But Europeans?

Last I checked, the Europeans - with the blessing of the Bush Administration - were working furiously to try to persuade the Iranians through negotiations. Is it all just a charade and they really want to help the Iranians destroy Israel by letting them get away with developing nukes?

Looking back on the last couple of years, it's hard for me not to draw the conclusion that we would have been better off confronting Iran in a serious way instead of Iraq. Now, with our attention on Iraq, we've subcontracted Iran policy to the Europeans, who NEVER will suggest anything but more and more diplomacy. Meanwhile a confrontation, and possibly a conflagration, looms.

626 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:18:32pm

Zulubaby and Henry S

I've suspected and read a few times lately that W is very much at odds with Daddy and his former foreign policy advisors. W's more in the mold of Reagan than his Dad, and some of the old Bush 41 folks, including Bush 41, aren't always pleased.

627 HenryS  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:19:00pm

ZB

You forgot the subtext for Kofi's committee:

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan established the 16-member High-Level Panel on Threats, Challenges and Change in November to study ways to reform the 59-year-old organization so it can better address 21st-century threats to security and peace (the US and Israel).
628 Geepers  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:21:01pm

dustyroadguy (#595),

I really don't want to get into the whole bigel thing because as jrdroll has pointed out his rantings for a nuclear revenge are based on pure hatred and not even remotely plausible.

We really need to focus on the facts and (however unappealing it is to some) be dispassionate in the face of a grave danger.

And just for the record, since his very first post nearly two years ago bigel has been spouting the same line:

If God forbid, Israel ever faces Armageddon, hopefully she will have the missiles and weapons to wipe out that pathetic, racist and immoral piece of sh*t excuse for a continent.


We've listened to his mouth run like a sewer ever since. In spite of the fact that Charles has twice asked him to shut up already. Something that to my knowledge has never happened with any other poster here on LGF.

The last time Charles pleaded with him to stop that he was spoon feeding the critics and that he was the one taking the heat for his comments. bigel just blew him off.


And as a question to the Jewish posters, how common is it for a Jew to spell out God, yet sanitize "sh*t" in the same sentence? It's one of the things that made me think that bigel was an agent provocateur.

629 dustyroadguy  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:21:03pm

bpp

you can't be serious...

your post answers your question...so I take it you just like to argue...?

630 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:23:24pm

#628 Geepers

In spite of the fact that Charles has twice asked him to shut up already.

Three times...

631 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:25:09pm

#624 reaganite

As I said, scroll up to #593. Don't blame me for you missing posts.

I say again: I saw it, and addressed it in #614.

Would you like to rebut that, or are you going to just keep restating, while ignoring the argument on the table?

You still haven't shown me a post where bigel says what you accuse him of saying. Are you going to do that, or are we done for the evening?

632 Kantana  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:27:00pm

I think most people who are shocked by Bigel's views don't understand why is insane rants are nesseccary here.
His rants are needed because they awake the fresh members who see his extreme feelings especially the LLL-Europeans.Most LGF'ers are intelligent enough to see he's the perfect messenger for stirring up a good discussion.
His eyeopening comments about Europe are so over the top,and yet, because he is Jewish, very understandable IMHO.His comments are generalisations,but he's right about a great portion of the European mindset, especially our media.

633 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:27:27pm

#631 Powderfinger

You still haven't shown me a post where bigel says what you accuse him of saying.

Willfuly blind is exactly what you are doing. Sorry, I will no longer play your game. Go play with someone else.

634 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:28:22pm

Geepers, is there a reason that you didn't include this text in your link?

If God forbid, Israel ever faces Armageddon

It seems to be a key part of the doctrine that many want to ignore.

635 zorkmidden  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:28:22pm

"If God forbid, Israel ever faces Armageddon"

636 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:28:43pm

BPP #625

In my post #616, I'm just making a point about enablers. Other than Russia, I'm not certain who they might be.

But there have been enablers, and something obviouis from the first: Iran needs to generate power from nuclear energy about like they need more sand.

637 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:29:04pm

Zorkmidden, GMTA!

638 zorkmidden  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:29:33pm

Powderfinger, you owe me a coke.

639 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:29:35pm

#432 Reaganite

I have read your posts, and have admired your ideas and especially what you have done when a friend needs you, and the service that you have given to this country. We are all grateful, but saying that, I have to stand up for Bigel, not out of any sense of obligation, but because I know why he feels the way he does. Any of us who lost families in the ovens, even if we never knew them, has been affected every single day of our lives. Just as with 9/11, which was only 3 years ago, everyone seems to want to wipe their memory banks clean of these horrors...and the enemy we face now, in the cult of isalm, is larger and far more wide-spread than the f*ing nazis.

I have no intentions of kissing your ass, BTW. What the german, ann, and dave ray posted, to mention the most egregious, just further bolsters why we, as Jews, realize that the pandemic that is sweeping the world is far more dangerous than any flu, and there is no vaccine to stop it; Jew hate, world wide, is at levels I cannot recall since WWII, and my youth, in Boston, As a mother and grandmother, I can not adequately convey the fear for them and the few Jews that are left on this planet that I live with, 24/7...the last thing on earth that I would ever think of you as is a Jew hater, and I know that you are not, and that is why I think both Zulubaby and I are so hurt.

G-d bless President Bush: Bush signs anti-Semitism law, courts Florida voters

This is on the Turkish Press, and is about as bad as al-nyt: John Kerry for President

The only other paper carrying the news re President Bush signing this Bill, which sticks it to the eternally Jew-hating Dept. of State is al-jazeera...here the MSM are ignoring it...

Reaganite, have you personally ever spent any time with survivors? It is a humbling experience.

640 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:31:45pm
Willfuly blind is exactly what you are doing. Sorry, I will no longer play your game. Go play with someone else.

Weaseling is what you're doing, and likewise, I'm not interested.

If you ever feel like bringing a quote or two back to support your position, I'll be happy to see them.

641 reaganite  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:32:33pm

I'm done, I mean for LGF. I'm tired of people here defending bigel types. I'm out.

I'll post once in awhile but I really can't put up with this anymore.

This has become a "hate" site.

642 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:35:47pm

Paranoia is no good political advisor. A Samson option including Europe would provoke measures to preempt it and nobody could be blamed for doing so. Let's not discuss this madness any further.

The claim that Europe or Europeans want the destruction of Israel and Jews is beneath contempt. I'm certainly not belitteling the antisemitism I see in Europe and elsewhere, but this is and remains and outrageous claim.

Germany has made many efforts to convince Jews to live in Germany again and has made progress in doing so. Right now in center of Munich a new synagogue and Jewish Cultural Center is built, with the overwhelming support of the population.

Re Iran. Europe will not help Iran in building nukes, and even less for the purpose to wipe out Israel. Europe wants to bring Iran to renounce their nuclear arms plans. That's what the talks in Paris between Iran and Germany/France/UK are about. An Iranian "ok, maybe" will not do. Europeans will insist on guarantees and control. Iran seems unwilling to comply, so it won't get any European help in nuclear matters.

Why should Europe have any interest to provide Iran with nukes that will not only reach Tel Aviv, but Berlin, Paris or London in a few years? I don't know what games the Russians are playing right now but they as well have no interests in nuke spiked Shahabs reaching Moscow.

But Europe also has little interest in an Israeli/U.S. preemptive strike on Iran, because the consequences can't be calculated. So, if the strike can be avoided without endangering Israel, Europeans will make efforts in that directions.

But should such a strike become a necessity I will support it and hope that it will be efficient.

Germany has never voted against Israel in the UN and will not do so in the future.

I don't trust the mullahs a jota but I also don't think they have suicide wishes. Right now having nukes seems to be more a prestige thing for Iran (and certainly makes a US attack less likely).

Yes the mullahs would probably destroy Israel if they could do it safely. The Soviets probably had the same thoughts about America.

But both can't and will never be able to do that. You might wonder about "rogue Iranian nukes" in terrorist hands but Iran does have no interest in that either given the fact that Israel will retaliate anyway. The first thing you want about your own nukes is to have full control over them.

As for the ad hominem attacks: I never reply to those nor take part in them. It's up to the others to make their judgements.

643 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:39:16pm

Boy I missed a lot watching football and car racing. I'm not feeling well, either, so I also took a nap.


I hate to see people I've never met, but consider friends, like Zulubaby and Reaganite get nasty to each other.

I'm posting this after reading 615, but I had to read down, this might be close to comment 700.

OK, I've said before I'm awfully uncomfortable with the Sampson Option, and in a way, if Israel actually subscribed to the Sampson Option it might increase the risk of its own destruction, in that a Arab or Iranian strike or invasion that either killed much of Israel's population or threatened its existence might prompt a nuclear power (France and Russian coming to mind) to launch a pre-emptive strike to minimize Israel's ability to launch nukes.


I agree Bigel's hatred for the Europeans is irrational, for he hates all of them, it seems, but comparisons of him to Hitler are grossly unfair, because Bigel wouldn't wish the destruction of Europe except as an act of revenge if Israel was destroyed. Although irrational, I can understand why he hates the way he does. The Nazis killed six million people of his religion/ethnicity, and many others in Europe looked the other way or were even active participants.


Hitler's motivations were just pure hatred and insanity. Nobody he targetted were guilty in the least way of offenses against him.

Everyone that compared Bigel to Hitler should apologize.

644 dustyroadguy  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:40:18pm

geepers

I have no desire to fall into the dark hole of confligration and mean no offense to anyone (save the errant trolls). My post reflects what I feel about what I have seen and I realize that bigel upsets a lot of people.

This particular article has evoked a lot a stong feelings. And sometimes the regular folks that post here haven't done so at their rhetoricaly best nor with sensitivity.

Add to that some VERY SWARMY TROLL ENVECTIVES and it has been tough.

Thanks for your response

/JMHO DRG

645 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:40:45pm

TGA,

Paranoia is no good political advisor. A Samson option including Europe would provoke measures to preempt it and nobody could be blamed for doing so. Let's not discuss this madness any further.

Then let's discuss Europe getting serious about disarming Iran. That would be a wonderful preemptive measure.

646 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:41:17pm
Can you honestly sit there and tell me that bigel's insane rants are any different than the Muslim's or for that matter the Nazi's?

So now that we've crossed the line and compared bigel to Hitler, I guess we can just continue in that vein and compare Jews to Nazis. That this has happened on LGF of all places is stunning. Ann unfortunately opened a door tonight and we can't seem to shut it again. I expect this from the lunatic liberals, not from people who claim to be our friends. I'm heartbroken. If any of you think that bigel swearing about the Europeans is the same as what Hitler did to the Jews or that it is in any way comparable, you have some reading to do. This is beyond the pale.

647 piglet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:41:22pm

One bigel comment: about twenty years ago their was a book written called the Sampson option, about Israel and if they would need to use nukes in response to an arab attack. At the end of the book disaster was avoided, and the main Israeli was asked, would you really have done it.

THe answer was "what kind of people do you think we are?

Destroying the whole world would likely violate jewish law.

France in particular and Europe in general should bear in mind that if Israel is destroyed thru their actions they may share its fate. Direct and blunt threats are likely counterproductive, and in the case of france might lead to them taking active pre-emptive action, france being stupid and cowardly and lacking military sense.

Bigels repeated comments are counterproductive, the regulars get the point and visitors get the wrong idea.
I do not believe bigel is a plant, as he never goes off into LLL talking points or typical false flag over-and mis-steps ( racist talk for example)


In summary, nuclear brinksmanship that may be appropriate for sharon to use at the right minute ( as when nixon went to what defcon 2? during the yom Kippur war) is no longer useful for bigel to keep writting on a LGF with 4 million visitors a day

648 Maine's Michael  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:42:04pm
I'm done, I mean for LGF. I'm tired of people here defending bigel types. I'm out.

This has become a "hate" site.

Don't be silly. It's not a hate site, and you're not going anywhere.

649 Ol' Southern Boy  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:44:32pm

Hmmm...

When can I expect them Yankees to apologize for the War of Nawthern Aggression?

650 Powderfinger  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:45:01pm

#648 Maine's Michael

Don't be silly. It's not a hate site, and you're not going anywhere.

Ahhh...ok, I'm not going to say it.

651 HenryS  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:50:20pm

a.k.a. Will

I have to admit being pleasantly surprised by Dubya's independence (except when he harps on about "Israel humiliating the Palestinians") and chalk this up primarily to his religious convictions. As a former CIA man and ambassador to China, his father was less principled but a master of international diplomacy. That worked in 1990 against a tin-pot dictator all the world could unite against but we are up against a much larger and more intractable enemy this time around (the "evil-doers").

652 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:53:10pm

BPP


About Iran's nukes and European complicity.

France has a long history of giving aid to the enemies of the US and Israel. They built Hussein the reactor he would have used to build a nuclear bomb, they blocked the US's efforts to bring Hussein into compliance (and made the war inevitable by giving Hussein confidence he would never really be called to task). I have no doubt, that while France may be trying tp persuade the Iranians not to build a bomb, they would oppose any UN resolutions that would hurt Iran to protect their investments.

653 Geepers  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:58:28pm

reaganite (#641),

I have noticed we have very few European posters anymore.

And who from Europe would want to come to LGF and be forever forced to defend themselves.

Because as we all know, (or at least as bigel tells us):

Believe me, put a few drinks in your average European, then ask them "Was Hitler justified in exterminating the Jooos?"

I'd bet money a majority in EVERY country, including the UK, would say yes.

The typical European is a psychotic, genocidal Nazi Jewhater. And is proud of it.

Somehow this is acceptable when invoking the Samson Option every so often.

654 PDM  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 7:59:26pm

#643 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C,

Unlike you, I'm not going to read every comment on this thread. I got the basic idea, and quite agree with your comment.

I just returned from a friend's house who is sitting shiva for her brother. Occasionally I catch a glimpse of the tattoo the Nazis put on her arm. Throughout the home are pictures and newspaper clippings (some in Yiddish) from the WWII era.
Tonight I heard a story about how Jews were blamed for a pogrom, and how some of them were sentenced for taking up arms to defend themselves. I saw the newspaper clipping from that event and pictured in it was my friend's father.

I can't really imagine what it was like. I never knew the people in my family who were lost in death camps.

But I do know that nothing that can happen here on this cyberspace blog can even begin to compare what real flesh and blood went through then.

So this is reaching a level of silliness that I wouldn't expect to see here. I'm not going to waste my time trying to absorb every comment that steps up to that level. I'd rather be in a shiva house comforting a mourner.

655 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:01:36pm

A friend of mine recently told me that Bush is evil, as evil as Saddam. I was so shocked and offended by that. The comparison is gross and clearly shows that she doesn't understand what evil really is. Comparing bigel to Hitler is as grotesque, even if you hate him or hate his views.

656 Dashing Dasher  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:02:57pm

Okay... boys and girls,
everyone take a deep breath and CHILL!

There will be NO leaving LGF!

Yes, many of you have gone over the edge tonight, but there is no reason we should forget that we are united against another enemy.

Close the laptop, have one more martini and hit the tempur pedic!

See ya'll back here tomorrow and we can make fun of Kerry and Edwards and their lovely (yuck) brides again.

XO
Dasher

657 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:08:35pm
658 manofaiki  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:09:15pm
They will care when the Israeli nukes land in Vienna, Rome, Paris, Berlin, Munich, even Moscow.

Bigel, if you think Israel would kill about, oh I don't know, what would it be...what's the combined populations of those cities...ok, fuck it, I'll guess...75 million people, about 90% of whom would be innocent, you're nuts.

Oh wait, if could be you don't think those 75 million people are innocent. Perhaps you believe they deserve what they are going to get if Israel drops a nuke on them.

If Israel actually did ever attempt this, what do you think the US would do? Sit back and watch?

Fortunately, I don't think Israel is being run these days by a bunch of genocidal maniacs.

Iran and North Korea are going to be dealt with when Bush gets re-elected in 3 weeks.

North Korea might come first, since they alreadly actually have the bomb. But Iran is not being ignored.

The US will never allow Iran to nuke anybody. The UN has absolutely no say in this, no matter how much they posture.

If you actually hope to see Israel nuke the capitals of Europe, you are actually proving everything your critics are claiming about you on this blog.

manofaiki

659 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:10:26pm

True German Ally #642

A very reasoned post and I hope you're right. But what do you make of Rafsanjani's remark that once Iran has nuclear weapons, that they could solve the Israel problem easily because Israel could be destroyed with a few nukes, but Iran could take the retaliation and survive.

That's not word-for-word, but he did make the statement and is, as I understand, still the most influential ayatollah.
If you haven't heard the remark, someone could probably link it for you. I didn't save a link, but it's been often discussed here.

In my mind, that fool remark alone justifies Israel or the US taking out their nuclear facility. I don't think we assume he's simply joking.

660 Beagle  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:11:10pm

Our forefathers ran from Europe so we could grow up in freedom, and argue about Europe.

661 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:13:38pm

Beagle, someone wrote:

European graffiti of the 1930s: "Jews -- Go to Palestine"

European graffiti of 2004: "Jews -- Get Out of Palestine"

662 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:15:35pm

BTW, I do wish Bigel would tone it down, but comparing a person who has revenge fantasies if Israel was ever destroyed to Hitler is quite wrong.


IIRC, Either True German Ally or his father (can't remember which) spent time in prison under both the Nazis and Communist puppet government in East Germany, so I think it would be a good thing to show him some respect.

BTW, Bigel's hatred for all Europeans is wrong, because while many, even a majority in some countries, do hate Israel and the Jews, many others do not. Dave Ray (who is, IINM, Jewish himself), Leo in berlin, True German Ally and Norwegian Kaffir are all European and all have their heads screwed on straight.

663 piglet  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:20:05pm
Dangerous territory, that. The U.S. had to be blackmailed in to sending that aid. Had Israel not threatened to nuke Soviet cities, those planes would not have been in the air for the Germans to deny overflight rights.

And we know this most secret of nuclear threats happend how?


Seems unikely, israel simply telling Nixon that unless they get those planes they may have to do something "unconventional" to egypt, such as blowing up the aswan dam. would seem enough to move washington, and avoid provoking a russia with at the time 30,000 tanks and thousands of aircraft and ICBMs.

This thread has turned very dark even for a dresden thread. How about someting lighter, like discussing the drinking game based on the movie "leaving las vegas"

664 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:24:15pm

#659 a.k.a Will

I have often seen Rafsanjanis remark quoted. Would be interesting to read the full quote in context.

He probably shot Iran's nuclear ambitions in the foot with that.

And he's seriously underestimating Israel's capabilities. Maybe he was consulted by the Iraqi information minister or some "sea of fire" rambler from North Korea?

Anyway, it's certainly wise not to underestimate Iran. But still I think the primary interest of Iran is to sell their oil and pray that Teheran is not destroyed by a big earthquake (which seems to be a real danger).

Also I think that most Iranians do have more brains than the mullahs. It gets too hot under the turban.

665 Havoc  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:24:49pm

Thom

Did you lose family in the Great War, WW II.

666 Ed Moran: Abu GOMEX aoa 28C  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:25:07pm

Bed time.

667 HenryS  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:31:22pm

Germany has never voted against Israel in the UN and will not do so in the future.

In the defense of our nation, a president must be a clear-eyed realist. There are limits to the smiles and scowls of diplomacy. Armies and missiles are not stopped by stiff notes of condemnation. They are held in check by strength and purpose and the promise of swift punishment.

-- George W. Bush, November 19, 1999

668 levi from queens  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:34:23pm

This is a quote from an Iraqi blog:

On the other hand if President Bush is reelected, this will prove to them that the American people are not intimidated despite all their brutality, and that their cause is quite futile. Yes there is little doubt that an election victory by President Bush would be a severe blow and a great disappointment for all the terrorists in the World and all the enemies of America. I believe that such an outcome would result in despair and demoralization of the “insurgent elements” here in Iraq, and would lead to the pro-democracy forces gaining the upper hand eventually. Note that we are not saying that President Bush is perfect, nor even that he is better than the Senator, just that the present situation is such that a change of leadership at this crucial point is going to send an entirely wrong message to all the enemies. Unfortunately, it seems to me that many in the U.S. don’t quite appreciate how high the stakes are. The challenge is mortal, and you and we are locked in a War, a National Emergency; and in such circumstances partisan considerations must be of secondary importance. If you lose this war, you are no more, and you will have to withdraw within you boundaries cringing and waiting for terror to strike you in your homeland, afraid to move around, afraid to travel, afraid to do business abroad. You will have to see all your friends abroad annihilated and intimidated and nobody will have any confidence or trust in you anymore. And you will have to watch from far with bitterness the forces of darkness and evil taking over in many parts of this earth, with feelings of impotence and inability to do anything about it. In other words you would lose all credibility, and the fiends of terror and obscurantism would go triumphantly dancing the macabre dance of mayhem and death, and darkness would descend and obliterate the light and the hope. You think I am exaggerating, you think I am being paranoid? I just pray that destiny would not prove all these things; I pray that these horrors will not come to pass. And all this for what? For failing to confront few thousands ex-baathists and demented religious fanatics and some common criminals, concentrated in some rural areas of a country of the size of just one of your states; and that for a nation that has defeated Natzism, Imperial Japan and the Soviet Empire!

Well if Senator Kerry is such a good man, and he may well be, then it would be prudent to wait just another four years to elect him, after the job is done. And if this is interference in your national affairs by a foreigner, I am not going to give you any apology for it.

link

669 Dashing Dasher  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:37:32pm

#657 - Iron Fist - which rule is that?

I live with very very few rules...

;-)

670 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:38:08pm
671 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:38:58pm

Could anyone provide a link to Rafsanjani's remarks concerning his desire to nuke Israel?

True German Ally

I think that might have been a MEMRI item, but I don't have an exact link. Maybe someone will post it now or later.

And, I enjoyed your remarks concerning, I guess, the psychological state of the German people during the '30s leading up to the war. Having read a lot about WWII, I've often wondered how I or others would have reacted if born in that period as Germans. Or how would anyone have resisted the tide that swept most all Germans into the Nazi plans.

As you said, there must have been at least one-half who joined up enthusiastically, but I expect there were many who certainly wished a different life than the one that period of history forced upon them.

672 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:40:12pm

#667 HenryS

Missed that one.
Bad decision.
Time for an election in Germany.

673 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:40:26pm

#647 Zulubaby

I second that. What, indeed, have we come to???

When this can happen...a Jew being equated with a nazi? Where is there to go?

Geepers

I honestly think that the Europeans are not posting as frequently is far more likely because of BDS.

When a Jew, george soros (may his name be eliminated) can fund moveon..and there is a need for this:Bush=h***, with a collection of articles, celebrity spewings and photos of demos..including my beloved London...Reaganite was the biggest shock and hurt...

Powderfinger

$5.00 bet he will be back very soon, and posting away...

Warning:the above site is hurtful, and the demonstation photos are revolting.

674 Wuptdo  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:41:14pm

Last post number was "666." Somehow, it didn't seem fair to leave the thread in there.

"War is politics carried out by other means. - Clausewitz"

675 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:42:02pm

a.k.a. Will (#671)

Could anyone provide a link to Rafsanjani's remarks concerning his desire to nuke Israel?

See #684.

676 Dashing Dasher  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:43:46pm

Iron Fist ...
How could I disagree with that rule?


...reaganite...
Come back...

677 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:44:14pm
678 Sarah D.  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:45:48pm

#677 Iron Fist

...and ignore my post!

geez.

679 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:47:40pm
680 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:50:59pm

NY Nana, we should leave the vicious comparisons to Hitler to the lunatic liberals.

For the record, I'm neither drunk nor angry. I am a bit distraught though. This is not something I ever expected to see on LGF.

681 flenser  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:51:27pm

The advantage of staying up late is, you get to have the last word.

John Kerry, if elected, would carry out the same policies that the Europeans are engaging in. That is, he would provide Iran with nuclear fuel and wait until they develop a bomb.

John Kerry is the favored candidate of about 75% of American Jews.

Following bigels logic to it's inexorable conclusion, if Kerry is elected, Israel may end up nuking Manhattan, in retaliation for American complicity in the Iranian nuclear program. And many here would appearently not have a problem with that. Or is it only ok if they nuke London?

So, maybe all the very excitable Jews here should expend some of their effort in trying to persuade their fellow Jews who support Kerry of the error of their ways, and spend less time picking fights with those who mean them no harm.

And lastly; if you can't drink, don't. There are far too many obnoxious drunks here.

PS. bigel should be banned.

682 justdanny  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:55:06pm

Reaganite

I think you need to stand down Sir. If you think you can deem LGF a hate site because there are people here you strongly disaggre with, who have support, you have another think coming.

You are not the conscience or moral compass of this site. And all the regulars you know here, many of whom respect you a lot, don't need this ridiculous judgement cast on them by you.

To a lot of people here your opinions and ideas carry a lot of weight. A lot of people here find comfort in the strength of your dedication to this country.

If you want to take the value of that respect and toss it out the window, I can't stop you. But when respectable people invest the emotional and mental energy it takes to honor you, whether you like it or not, you are beholding to them to some degree. And I feel that degree covers the inexcusable nature of your comment asserting that LGF is a hate site.

This is a free country, and you above anyone here have payed for that freedom with your blood, sweat and tears. (And as much as I hate to go here, I feel I have to.) But nobody died and made you god. If you leave LGF it is not because LGF is a hate site, because it is not. If you leave its because you've got to damn big for your britches.

683 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:55:51pm

flenser (#680)

So, maybe all the very excitable Jews here should expend some of their effort in trying to persuade their fellow Jews who support Kerry of the error of their ways, and spend less time picking fights with those who mean them no harm.

Yeah, we should be fine with being compared to Nazis. I guess we're just "sensitive Jews", right?

684 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:56:16pm
685 a.k.a. Will  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:59:24pm

True German Ally

Here is one short paragraph from MEMRI:

Rafsanjani said that Muslims must surround colonialism and force them [the colonialists] to see whether Israel is beneficial to them or not. If one day, he said, the world of Islam comes to possess the weapons currently in Israel's possession [meaning nuclear weapons] - on that day this method of global arrogance would come to a dead end. This, he said, is because the use of a nuclear bomb in Israel will leave nothing on the ground, whereas it will only damage the world of Islam.

I thought there was more than that, but that is basically what I remember. There might be more elsewhere.

Zulubaby #675

#684? Maybe you meant another #. Thanks.

I'm calling it a night.

686 Song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 8:59:41pm
687 monkeyweather  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:00:54pm

#680 zulubaby
I don't ever like seeing Hitler comparisons either. It is a nasty weapon, and disrespectful to those who suffered at Hitler's hands. Seems to be quite a handy name to drag out these days. This minimizes the victims. To win an argument or score off on someone by invoking "Hitler" is just tacky.

Until someone has perpetrated acts identical to Hitler it is a stupid thing to say. And even then, there was one Hitler. The people whose deaths he caused were unique. I wish to never see another Hitler comparison.
If another monster appears on the horizon, that monster will have his own name.

688 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:08:18pm

a.k.a. Will, sorry, I meant #604.

689 Sarah D.  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:11:07pm

#684 Iron Fist

Thanks, just wanted a hug, that's all!


:-)

690 flenser  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:12:16pm

zulubaby

Grow up. Jews are compared to Nazis every day, often by other Jews. Israel, and the world, would be in a lot less danger if not for the prevalence of left-wing thought. That left wing thought, whether you like it or not, originates mostly from Jewish people. Many of the worst anti-semites are Jews. Clean your own house before you presume to pass judgement on others.

As I say, 75% of American Jews will vote for Kerry. I work with many of them, and they are as dumb as a box of rocks. They are the peple you need to turn your attention to.

691 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:15:46pm

monkeyweather, exactly. It's a tactic that is favoured by the nasty left and not something I expected from people who I thought were friends.

692 zorkmidden  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:17:21pm
Clean your own house before you presume to pass judgement on others.

flenser, a sincere FOAD

I've had it tonight.

693 zorkmidden  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:18:16pm

{{{justdanny}}}

Thank you.

694 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:18:16pm

flenser, fuck off. I don't know who you are, or care.

695 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:18:53pm

#671 a.k.a Will

Yes it's an interesting (and maybe) educating story. One problem was that most intellectuals of the 20s didn't take Hitler seriously. After his putsch he seemed to be history. He only rose again when Germany faced its worst unemployment crisis in history (chancellor Brüning had imposed crippling deflationary measures) and when Brüning fell, the succeeding chancellors where a bunch ofc incompetent, authoritarian figures financed by big industry. Hitler would have gotten nowhere without the German industry, notably those who knew EXACTLY where Hitler was going. Much of the public support of Hitler around 1930 was a mix of desperation and hope for better times. The Young plan that wanted to extend German war reparations into the 1980! fed Hitler's propaganda machine... plus he made the Jews scapegoats for everything which in times of a crisis is always popular.

I think even in 1932 most Germans seriously underestimated Hitler. Many saw him as a nuisance. When Hindenburg made him chancellor in 1933, Hitler didn't have a majority (he actually lost votes in previous elections). Many thought the best way to get rid of Hitler was to make him chancellor. He would blunder so much that in a few months the problem would be solved.

But I know (although still a boy then) that many people around me were horrified. My father very lucidly predicted a catastrophe for Germany.

Then the Reichstag burned and the Nazis pulled their best propaganda tricks to picture a "nation in grave danger" to justify the Ermächtigungsgesetz. Only the social democrats voted against it (and most disappeared in the camps after that. The public mood after 1933 was like "give him a chance". And through public spending that would have made Keynes proud things improved: Unemployment dropped, reparation demands were dropped, the Saar came "home" and the Rheinland was occupied. Germans learned that force pays. The Allies who had humiliated Germany in the Weimar Republic suddenly "respected" it.

The repression of the Jews was a gradual one... the typical "frog in hot water" thing. Antisemitism became something "normal", "acceptable"... and of course many people profited from expropriation. But then again, many people kept their Jewish friends, spouses, doctors etc although pressure increased.

The height of enthusiasm was reached in the Olympics, when all the world seemed to honor the achievements of Germany. Then came Austria, a "peaceful reunification". Who could oppose that? The big shock for many was the Reichskristallnacht, a watershed. Those who still backed the Nazis after that were unsalvable, although I know people who were anti-Nazis but still felt proud when Germans marched into Paris. This was the revenge for Versailles after all. Yet the mood on the day when Hitler attacked Poland had not been jubilant at all: even people sympathetic to Hitler were worried.

When Hitler attacked the Soviet Union, most clearsighted Germans doubted that Germany would win the war, when Hitler declared war on the U.S. they knew Germany was done. And after Stalingrad only the desperate Nazis hung onto their victory dreams.

But Hitler was impossible to remove after 1934 (barring a succesful assassination). Those who were against him went into "interior exile" or had their own little demonstrations of opposition.

Just the story about how I avoided to join the (mandatory) Hitlerjugend would fill a thread.

I will not excuse the Germans for what they did in these times. But those who never experienced a totalitarian state can not fully understand what it is like: the fear, the opportunism that is necessary to get along with your life, the shoddy compromises you make.

Americans are blessed that they never had to go through that.

But had the Soviets been able (Red Dawn Movie?) to occupy the U.S., not all 100% of Americans would have been brave resistants. Collaboration is, unfortunately, much more common in situations like this.

696 BRAINDIRT  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:20:27pm

I got in on this very late, so I honestly can't read >600 comments [Yeah, Im lazy!].

Sorry if I happen to repeat other peoples' ideas, but I'm unaware of them. I speak from only the heart.

My Great-Uncle was gassed by Germans in World War 1. My Father fought bravely in World War 2, and my beautiful Mother lost some of her closest friends in the same war.

The Germans gave us two World Wars in 20 years. A whole generation of young men were killed. 6 million Jews were exterminated in gas chambers. And so forth...

And the Germans deserve apologies?!?

The number one Best Seller in the Arab World today is "Mein Kampf", by the stellar writer--- Adolf Hitler!!!

697 NY Nana  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:23:19pm

#677 Iron Fist

I did not ever expect to see some of the remarks that were posted today, and the hurt is palpable.

#680 Zulubaby

Nor am I...but the comparisons of Bigel to h*** make me feel sick. The fact that they were not made by the L3 is all the more frightening, as we expect such crap from them...but Reaganite?

When we see President Bush equated with h***, and done by Jews, they are blind. President Bush is the best friend the Jews have ever had in the White House, and they have only 16 days left to wake up.

#682 justdanny

Thanks for that post...it is perfect, and sadly, needed.

698 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:23:35pm
Antisemitism became something "normal", "acceptable"...

As it is today except this time we're not going quietly to the ovens and that seems to infuriate some people. Tough. The world loves us when we're being "good Jews", when we're victims and our loved ones have been turned to ash. No more.

699 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:26:05pm
700 flenser  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:28:33pm

zulubaby + zork

Well, in the face of such well thoght out, intellectual repsonses, what can I say but, FOAD yourself.

You people seem singularly lacking in social skills.

701 zorkmidden  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:32:13pm

flenser, if you deserved an intellectual response, rest assured, you would have gotten one. Now, why don't you go crawl back in your hole.

702 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:33:10pm

flenser, who cares what you think? Emotions are a bit raw right now so again, fuck off. I honestly don't care about you, your contempt for Jews or any other opinions you might have. It is only people who matter to me who have the ability to upset me. Do you understand why you're nothing more than an annoying fruit fly to be swatted out of the way?

703 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:33:52pm
704 flenser  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:37:51pm

zork

I'm afraid I don't have a hole. I'm also afaid that the only way you would have an intellectual thought is if one were surgically implanted in you.

I suggest you idiots start taking all of your anger and self-pity and start directing it at your enemies. Hint, people like reganite and myself are not them. Not yet anyway. But I'm always willing to learn something new.

705 True German Ally  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:40:53pm

#698 zulubaby

I can assure you, being able to compare 1933 to 2004, there is NO WAY that antisemitism becomes acceptable again in Germany.

It exists, it is annoying but it is not (neither officially nor inofficially) acceptable or practised.

The problem in 1933 was that the state told people it was not only ok but encouraged. The state incensed the population.

This time, the state does everything to prevent, disencourage antisemitism. Every time 50 Neonazis march down a street you can expect 10 times as many people who protest against them.

Public expression of antisemitic beliefs still is the safest and swiftest way to ruin your career for good.

We'll see to it that it stays that way.

Should a German government ever turn to antisemitism I will take up arms.

706 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:42:12pm
707 PDM  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:43:19pm

Can anyone look at these very graphic photos and really compare blog comments (or even the actions of liberal Democrat Jews) with Nazi atrocities?

[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

[Link: gilkarm.free.fr...]

[Link: www.phdn.org...]

[Link: www.aish.com...]

[Link: www.iwchildren.org...] (top photo)

[Link: www.jewishmag.com...]

[Link: shl.stanford.edu...]

[Link: www.olam.cz...]

It's disgusting. We have every reason to fear that it could happen again, and every reason to do whatever we have to, to prevent it from happening again. If someone wants to make light of what my people went through they can go to Hell.

708 zulubaby  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:46:56pm

True German Ally, I didn't mean Germany, specifically, but that's good to hear anyway.

flenser, fuck off. Nobody cares what you think about anything. Creep.

709 Beagle  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:47:57pm

#677 Iron Fist

If you think you are to angry to post, you are as well.

I should carve that one on a stone tablet and block the office door with it.

710 flenser  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:50:08pm

zulubaby

If you actually do not care you would not keep posting to me. So your extravagent expressions of disinterest seem a bit hollow, intended more to wound and lash out than as genuine expressions of feeling. Sorry if your emotions are a bit raw. I guess everyone is pretty keyed up, and has been for the last couple of months. Just two more weeks to go.

But I'm in the problem solving business, and I've never seen anything solved by people getting angry.

Identify problems, come up with solutions, implement them. That's what we need to be doing, not all this ... umm, other stuff.

711 Beagle  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:55:19pm
That left wing thought, whether you like it or not, originates mostly from Jewish people.

In an amazing statistical anomaly...

flenser, you are one step from sounding like...nah. I won't go there.

712 Charles  Sat, Oct 16, 2004 9:59:17pm

This thread is now closed, for two reasons. 1) It's getting too large, and 2) it's getting too nasty.


Comments are disabled for this entry.

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