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Did Russia Help Iraq Dispose of Weapons?

Wed, Oct 27, 2004 at 7:57:50 pm PDT

Russia tied to Iraq’s missing arms.

Russian special forces troops moved many of Saddam Hussein’s weapons and related goods out of Iraq and into Syria in the weeks before the March 2003 U.S. military operation, The Washington Times has learned.

John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, said in an interview that he believes the Russian troops, working with Iraqi intelligence, “almost certainly” removed the high-explosive material that went missing from the Al-Qaqaa facility, south of Baghdad.

“The Russians brought in, just before the war got started, a whole series of military units,” Mr. Shaw said. “Their main job was to shred all evidence of any of the contractual arrangements they had with the Iraqis. The others were transportation units.”

Mr. Shaw, who was in charge of cataloguing the tons of conventional arms provided to Iraq by foreign suppliers, said he recently obtained reliable information on the arms-dispersal program from two European intelligence services that have detailed knowledge of the Russian-Iraqi weapons collaboration.

Most of Saddam’s most powerful arms were systematically separated from other arms like mortars, bombs and rockets, and sent to Syria and Lebanon, and possibly to Iran, he said.

The Russian involvement in helping disperse Saddam’s weapons, including some 380 tons of RDX and HMX is still being investigated, Mr. Shaw said.

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1 Fondu  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 5:59:13pm

Wonder how pumpkinhead skerry will spin this one?

2 Brass Tacks  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:01:01pm

Looks like Russia's double-dealing came back to bite her.

3 Final Historian  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:01:02pm

The fact that this official said so openly makes me almost certain he is telling the truth. No worries about the source here. If this guy was lying his job is over. And even if he is telling the truth it might be over.

4 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:01:06pm

Sweet merciful crap! As I posted on an earlier thread, the very notion that this isn't just the musings of unnamed officials, but comes from named individuals who are rather high in the Adminstration shows how much that the Admin think this stuff is legit. And they were waiting for the right time to drop this one on the Kerry campaign, which should have known better.

Is this the October Surprise (or just take XXVI)

5 DCMC  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:01:47pm

Finally, some of the text!

DCMC

6 soccer4ever  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:02:05pm

This could have an impact.

I saw a full page ad in today's USA Today (pg. 5A):

[Link: www.save-america-now.com...]

1 hour prime-time TV prayer meeting on 200+ TV stations with most well-known preachers.+ + + Literature distribution to millions of people, and to 250,000 churches!!

7 rolus  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:02:06pm

Pat Buchanan just mentioned this on Scarborough Country.

8 BrooklynJon  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:02:09pm

With Kerry in the White House, the Russians would never have done this. (audible eyeroll)

9 Ack  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:02:14pm

One part of the story:

Documents reviewed by the official included itineraries of military units involved in the truck shipments to Syria. The materials outlined in the documents included missile components, MiG jet parts, tank parts and chemicals used to make chemical weapons, the official said.

How does this play with Kerry's 'Global Test'?

10 Junior  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:02:17pm

Holy Crap. If this is true, not only is that game, set, match on the election... but this opens up a whole can of worms. Wow.

Now Kerry will look like the BIGGEST ASS for the way he's been talking the last 2 days. Oh baby this is too good to be true!

Tell me its true, tell me its true....

11 motorcycle mom  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:02:22pm

Well if he wants Russia to be on his side for the Global test he better say something like... I would like to thank Russia for safe-keeping these explosives so they could not be used against our troops.

12 DocDublU  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:02:33pm

perhaps W's reluctance to respond on this issue is actually a reluctance to attack Putin for allowing / authorizing this Russian complicity. never trust a commie or a former commie. but at the moment, we need the ruskies. i hate diplomacy.

13 Final Historian  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:03:20pm

Question: Is this guy appointed or part of the civil service "merit" earners?

14 motorcycle mom  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:03:22pm

post 11 is a skerry sping sorry, watching the b-ball game

15 RicPenna  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:03:26pm

I, personally, never looked in Putin's eyes, or
trusted the man. I'll still vote for Bush.

16 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:03:42pm

(channeling Ace Ventura)

HOLY SHITBALLS!

17 DCMC  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:04:28pm

#11: Yeah, this is Russia's contribution to the War on Terror

DCMC

18 pwinWHOH  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:05:51pm

Shows Bush was right about the Russians, F***ing French, Germans, Syrians, Iran, and all the other complicit countries.

Hey, Kerry A**Hole supporters, BUSH WAS RIGHT, BUSH WAS RIGHT, BUSH WAS RIGHT, AND
KERRY IS WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG AND THE WRONG PERSON FOR ANY JOB INVOLVING ANY DEGREE OF RESPONSIBILITY. Ever!!!!!

History will show Bush was so far superior on these issues than Kerry could ever dream of being, in his greatest delusion of grandeur.

How can SEE B.S. Spin this?????????????
Dan Rather and co-conspirators is "Histoire"!!!!!!!

19 soccer4ever  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:06:33pm

Hardball, however, goes on and on blaming Bush.

No matter what the facts are.

20 Junior  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:06:37pm

Why am I not hearing what I should be hearing from you all.
This is the end of Kerry... the way he's been talking the last two days - he has denegrated our troops and now we find this out?! Holy cow.

He's done ladies and gentlemen. Pop the cork!

21 Teacake!  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:06:53pm

What totally baffles me is that everyone knew at that time everything was going to Syria while the UN was clowning around .... so why does the cia and bush now agree that there were no wmd... and why keep quiet about what happened, when it was obvious at the time. That has always bothered me over the past few months of saying there were none to be found. What is going on?????

22 independent_with_common_sense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:06:58pm

Slightly OT, but how will Arafat's death before the US Presidential elections affect the outcome?

A lot would depend on whether the immediate power transition is peaceful.

If the transfer of power is relatively bloodless, those who believe that Arafat's passing will aid the Mideast peace process and thus require less harsh measures from Washington will vote for Kerry.

It is also possible, however, that other voters might be gripped with panic, especially if there is an outbreak of violence and a radical outfit like Hezbollah (or Sharon) seizes power. Should Sharon move in despite Bush's pleas, the President will be seen as weak and Kerry wins.

Of course there is always the superstitious voter who will see Arafat's passing as a sign.

A right-leaning will attribute this to the luck of Bush; a left-leaning voter will see it as a positive sign for Kerry's first term.

23 KrisH  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:07:12pm

Hmmm....

The answer to "WHERE ARE THE WMDs?" being screamed by th LLL is: Syria.

Wonder if the boy dictator is sleeping well tonight?

Wonder if Kerry is feeling dumb about bringing all this attention to the weapons?

Wonder if NY Times is feeling really dumb about getting this out too soon so that the truth could be told?

24 KeithW  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:07:22pm

Anyone want to take a wild guess on where those "non-existant" WMDs are now?

Maybe those intel weenies knew what they were talking about after all!

25 Belize042  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:08:27pm

The Russians don't "get it" yet, do they? Did Beslan wake them up? Lie down with Islamists, get up with...well, actually, chances are you won't get up.

And I am very interested in learning which two European countries' intelligence services provided this information. Just a hunch, but I'd bet it's not France and Spain.

26 Havoc  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:08:28pm

Slightly right of OT -

Now you can view Stolen Honor for FREE

They must have bought some more servers.

27 rogue1  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:09:06pm

I almost thin the Russias get what they deserve concerning the Belsan school hostage "incident". They are no friend of America.

28 RicPenna  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:09:16pm

#20, Junior, unfortunately 48 percent will pay no
attention and the 2 percent undecided will be to dumb
to figure it out. I am not popping any corks yet.

29 Grapevine  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:09:43pm

test

30 Cornholio  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:10:00pm

Saddam has a history of sneaking weapons out of the country prior to invasion. Immediately before Gulf War One, Saddam flew his best fighter jets to Iran so the Allies wouldn't destroy them in combat.

Undoubtedly Saddam remained true to form and hid the NBC weapons in a similar fashion.

That being said, how on Earth can an empty ammo dump "Become Focus of Presidential Race" as the WaPo puts it? A handful of missing old ammunition - in a war zone is the biggest issue in the election for president of the United States?

The media will do anything to hurt W.

31 tankdemon  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:10:07pm

Now Kerry is going to try to wspin this that with the right diplomacy, he would have gotten the Ruskis to bring the weapons to the UN for destruction. Do you think any of this shit ended up in Beslan? I would say that it would serve them right, but I feel to terrible about those poor schoolkids to think about poetic justice.

32 Where is Diogenes?  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:10:46pm

Bad news for Kerry, CBS and NYT; worse news for Assad. Maybe he will call the Colonel and get the telephone number to the White House. Maybe more stuff for Oak Ridge.

33 godfrey  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:10:48pm

This is an amazing story that if true will completely unravel Kerry's campaign in the space of five days.

34 Fondu  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:10:58pm

Heh, twirl that top.. wheee:

US forces DID NOT search Al Qaqaa
by kos
Thu Oct 28th, 2004 at 02:17:14 GMT

The wingers insist that the 760,000 pounds of high explosives looted because of Bush/Rumfeld's ineptness were gone before US troops arrived.

That excuse is officially dead...This story ain't dying.

Nope it sure aint. It takes a lickin and keeps on tickin. "Kick against the pricks" in the words from the man in black.

35 jpsfudimo  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:11:06pm

Song about President Bush Follow A leader

36 daver  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:11:20pm

I knew Syria's name would come up somewhere in this explosives story. It was just a matter of time.

I guess Kerry's "globe" just failed the test.

In addition to the Arafish Death Pool, should there also be a Syria Invasion Pool?

37 eeevil conservative  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:12:08pm

THANKS CHARLES!!!! I WAS BEGINNING TO HTINK I WAS CRAZY!!

WHAT A GREAT NIGHT!!!

38 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:12:15pm

#21 Teacake

so why does the cia and bush now agree that there were no wmd... and why keep quiet about what happened, when it was obvious at the time. That has always bothered me over the past few months of saying there were none to be found.

There were no obvious stockpiles of WMD. I remember WorldNetDaily claiming long ago that they were moved to Syria.

39 Michael Moore's Dromedary  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:12:31pm

#20 Junior

"Junior, put the dooooor in the cahr!"

/sorry, channeling Buford T. Justice


Anyway, yeah, you'll def. hear if from ME. This may be the nail de la coffin, me's hopes.

40 Grapevine  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:12:34pm

Kerry & Pony sure fell for that one.

41 Frank_Mtl  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:13:06pm
42 TalkinKamel  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:13:40pm

#24 Keith W

Um, let me see, I'll take a wild guess! The "nonexistant WMD's" are. . .

1. On the planet of intelligent spiders, circling the star Mu arae.

2. In Karl Rove's black den of crime and inequity.

3. In Michael Moore's refrigerator.

4. Syria.

I know, I know! (waves arms wildly in the air) they're in Karl Rove's den, right next to the iron maiden!

/Channeling a Moonbat, who is a very bad guesser.

43 motorcycle mom  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:13:41pm

OT
I was talking to someone from San Fransico CA (job related) she asked me which way I was leaning. To play it safe I said I voted against Kerry in the primaries.
She told me that she was leaning for Bush and that she has never voted Republican in her life.
She even knew the Draft was a Kerry idea. She is worried Kerry wants a draft and that is why she does not want to vote for him.


As other people have said about CA, Bush won't win it but it will be closer then people think

44 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:14:30pm

#36 daver:

I'm willing to wager $10 that the US was already sending in special forces into Syria starting March 2003. Support, interdiction, and intel gathering. So, we've had our guys working in and around Syria for a while - now that's just my Tom Clancyesque mind working in overdrive, so I should probably log off for the nite :)

45 deona  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:14:35pm

Has anyone done the math on this 300+ tons of explosives? It's 0.019% of the total munitions that were in Iraq before we started destroying them. Two one-hundreds of a percent. Two ten-thousanths of the total.

Good God Almighty!!! When is someone going to start laughing at this instead of fighting over it? Here we have a serious candidate for president who has spent today, one sixth of the time remaining until his election, spewing outrage over 2/10,000ths of the munitions in Iraq, and accusing Bush of almost causing the end of the world because he didn't give a direct order to stop the war and go look for this stuff? He's outraged about there being serious weapons and implying they might have fallen into the hands of terrorists -- anybody remember why we went there in the first place???.

Can anyone name a single campaign in the past that has run more on empty than this clown? What about HIS plan for Iraq? (silence)
What about HIS plan for Social Security? (silence) What about HIS plan for health care? (silence)

He's gotten the most excited all fall about "proof" that Bush screwed up his National Guard service (thanks, Dan Rather), and now this? (thanks, NYT).

The only plan I've heard is his economic plan, where he is certain he has found a really, really, really rich country he's sure will marry the US. Whoopee. Now, THAT's a plan I think he can help us with. (Ok, so that's a joke. Just trying to lighten the moment...)

46 christy  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:14:44pm

#21


my thoughts exactly

47 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:15:05pm

Our anti-democratic MSM in the can for the leftist - will not be bringing this to light.

48 eeevil conservative  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:15:10pm

FINALLY

BUSH VINDICATED!!!!

Kerry is gonna look sooooo bad, he has been courting the French, attacking the Bush admin, pooping all over the countries helping us, and whining about the missing stuf like a cat stuck in a meat grinder!

Hey Kerry--

buh bye!!!

WOOO HOOOOOO!!!

49 Nigella  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:15:15pm

we know the stuff was removed prior to our arrival and that other countries were involved in stabbing us in the back regarding our going to iraq, but do you really think the msm is going to run with this?they are still running stories confirming that we let these weapons be looted.

50 RicPenna  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:16:47pm

I tried forever to read the story on Drudge. I
couldn't link to the page. I figured I would be
able to read about it here. (Thank you, Charles)
But, I think some of you are too optimistic. I hope
it is the final October surprise, because
I am tired of trying to keep up with them all.

51 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:17:05pm

#45 deona

Very good point. The MSM failed to mention that besides the missing 380 tons of explosives, which fill 38 giant trucks, our military has destroyed hundreds of thousands of tons of Saddams weaponry, filling 40,000 truckloads!

Yep, they keep ignoring the elephant in the living room.

52 ghost of raihana bint amr  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:17:24pm

I really have my doubts that Kerry will be made to admit his mendaciousness regarding the weapons in Iraq. Who's going to actually nail him on it? MSNBC? He refuses all other appearances. Without confrontation, he will not respond at all, and he will get away with it.

53 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:17:24pm

Does the LLL really believe that two hard core military units (the 3rd ID and the 101st) searched "but not that hard" during active combat? They would have wen't building to building to just find bad guys if nothing else... sheesh... I don't understand the whole moonbat BDS stuff... I don't know how more than just a couple of people can talk themselves into believing something so ridiculous...

54 independent_with_common_sense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:17:32pm

Of course, Putin also said that Saddam planned terrorist attacks on American soil, yet he opposed the war.

Bush never raised this, go figure.

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Actually, Bush is too dense to raise anything worthwhile.

Ever see that split screen of Kerry and Bush on the campaign trail: Kerry talks effortlessly, casually, from the heart, never has a need for a script or a teleprompter.

Bush on the other hand cannot complete a sentence without glancing at the script. Painful.

But you know what--the average redneck in the red state looks at Bush murdering the English language and feels comforted--not because he can relate to the President, but because he thinks he too can be President. Of course he can never be President--unless, of course, he was laundered through Yale or Harvard.

Too depressing. Let's go back to talking about the Russians.

55 Nancy  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:17:42pm

Note the interesting use of language here: The inspectors didn't actually SEE the weapons in question on their March 15th visit, they only saw the "seals on the bunkers doors" were not broken THEREFORE ............

The explosives were known to be housed in storage bunkers at Al-Qaqaa. U.N. nuclear inspectors placed fresh seals over the bunker doors in January 2003. The inspectors visited Al-Qaqaa for the last time on March 15, 2003, and reported that the seals were not broken; therefore, the weapons were still there at the time. The team then pulled out of the country before the invasion, which started on March 20.

MORE: [Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

56 armour995  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:17:47pm

I would hope ABC and NBC, out of network rivalry, would run with this.....but then again, I've been known to be naive before.....

57 eeevil conservative  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:18:34pm

49

FOX will, and NBS might since they were the ones saying it wasn't there when we got there, plus they can cash in on the credability issues of CBS and Dan Rather, and ABC and there Memogate!

I LOVE IT!!

Not that I love NBC- but I would sure gain a LOT of respect for them if they run this!!

58 godfrey  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:18:57pm

Syria manufactures WMD. As someone on another thread pointed out, it will be hard to find Saddam's stuff there for that reason. Plus, I'm sure Bashar Boy has said "get that sh(t out of here!" more than once by now. It's probably in Sudan by now.

I hope the Russians took the RDX and HMX back to Russia to use against the Chechens. Poetic justice and all.

59 Moose Dung  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:19:03pm

I hope Karl Rove is behind this because it makes for the kind of story that will have moonbat heads exploding for years to come.

RNC throws some bait in the water (using our buds in IRAQ) with the missing explosives deal. Then we wait a few days for the Dems to take the bait...and get a really good bite on it. Yep, George toys with them a bit to make sure Kedwards has swollowed hook, line & sinker.

Then right on cue, Thursday before the election the Pentagon drops the bomb they've been working on for over a year...the Russian's took 'em while the UN wasn't looking.

With that, fish-face Kerry comes up outta the water only to find himself securely in George's kreel.

((We need a pic with this...I suk with Photoshop)) I need a fish with Kerry's face and big-ass hook in his mouth.

dung.

60 Minnesota Lurker  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:19:29pm

#27, no absolutely not. They didn't "deserve what they got" its impossible to deserve that. Those murders were perpretrated by the worst terrorist savages.


The Russians did wake up after Beslan. Does anyone think they would tell the US about this if they hadn't woken up? In Beslan they saw that this is one war. They see that they had made some grave errors in not seeing that. Moving these weapons happened a year and a half before Beslan. It was part of their pre Beslan reality, much the same as Kerry's 9-10 reality.

For them to reveal this to us is huge! Now its only because Putin realises that its all the same war. They are now on our side.

I do wish that their actions in Iran would say as much though.

61 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:19:30pm

It stinks to high heaven of Troll skank in here.....Must be a slow night at the Kerry headquarters, nuthin' to do......Caller ID cuts out crank phone calls.....guess I'll troll on over to LGF......

62 Zaideh  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:19:32pm

I vaguely recall hearing or reading, during the opening days of GWII, that this had already happened . Don't remember the source. At the time, the talk was that WMDs had been transported via Syria into the Bekaa Valley where they were buried.

Wait, my memory is stirring...I think it was Debka that reported it.

63 Right Wing Nutt  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:19:39pm

this matches up with that link from a June story saying, the "UN: Iraq shipped WMD to Syria before war"....apparently with help of russia

64 Reagan  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:19:56pm

The nice thing is this has five days to be played up and talked about on talk radio, fox, and by the President. The media won't be able to ignore this and Kerry is going to get wacked. So really there's just two things to say.

Die Fish Die!

Go W. Go!

Hell yeah what a great Wednesday. Raise a glass or three, I have.

65 LouMinatti  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:20:17pm

Debka wrote extensively about the Syria connection in the weeks after the invasion. I wondered what happened to the story, and now I know.

66 independent_with_common_sense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:20:38pm
Most of Saddam’s most powerful arms were systematically separated from other arms like mortars, bombs and rockets, and sent to Syria and Lebanon, and possibly to Iran, he said

So does this mean that Bush's warmongering actually triggered this dispersal of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction? Because if inspectors had been allowed to continue, the material would have been safely under lock and key and monitored by camera, right.

Does this mean then that Bush should be held responsible for making the Middle East more dangerous?

67 daver  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:20:48pm

#44 lawhawk -

Anything's possible. Of course, if that were the case the government couldn't say anything about what they found without jeopardizing the source. Now that the cat is out of the bag, perhaps they can add a few non-compromizing tidbits and move this story along.

68 motorcycle mom  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:20:50pm

After rathergate and the missing weapons story, I am begining to think (pray) that anything else MSM tries to pull (anit-bush) will have little effect because the public won't belive it.

69 Junior  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:21:30pm

KERRY IS FINISHED!

With what he has been saying the last two days and now we find out Russian was working WITH Iraq and WITH Syria to get the weapons out! This is the biggest F-up in political history.

Cork is popped my friends! ;)

Although I'm not smiling at the prospects of having to deal with Russia now on that level. Commies never change.

70 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:21:40pm

Troll 54 where are you.....

I know everyone the elite know what's best for me.... but I understand Bush just fine... and if "I would respond to terrorists... BUT... I would have to get a signed note from France before did after I didn't..." If that's smart then I like being dumb...

71 eeevil conservative  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:21:59pm

Kerry will never admit ANYTHING! He won't do an interview and allow himself to get questioned on this- he will send his little goonies to discredit ANY information- or ALL of a SUDDEN he will want to WAIT ans see how this story holds up. Unlike running with the NYT story right away- this one he will "not rush to judgement"!

72 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:22:26pm

Syria has been playing with the WMDs they got from Saddam (while we were dickin around with the UN) for some time--they've already tested them on the poor black Sudanese. Bastards.

Also the only other BAATHIST state. HelLO, folks.

I wish the Bushies had a CLUE about public relations!! they keep whiffing these fat, juicy softballs. Dadgummit.

And the Russians are totally machiavellian. No news there. (Putin does look like Dobby the House Elf, though).

73 RicPenna  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:22:33pm

excuse me for not being optimistic, but I live in
PA.....which will go Kerry (sigh). The president
had a great turnout, today, in Lancaster.

74 ghost of raihana bint amr  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:23:04pm

#54

Ever see that split screen of Kerry and Bush on the campaign trail: Kerry talks effortlessly, casually, from the heart, never has a need for a script or a teleprompter.


Yes independent, and everything he says is nonsensical, when it isn't a lie. Shit even his lies are nonsensical.
I didn't realize that facility in public speaking is all it takes to be intelligent. Thanks for enlightening us rednecks.

75 deona  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:23:19pm

#51:

I pasted that message into dailykos.com, went back and read it in the stream of messages, but now it's gone. Of course, he's reporting x messages, 1 hidden. I wonder which one THAT is??? LOL

Coward.

76 Final Historian  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:23:21pm

"independent_with_common_sense"=proof common sense isn't common.

77 RightDad  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:23:49pm

In an earlier post I noted how smart it was for Bush to wait 48 hours.
1. The press had to fact check itself, If Bush countered, they would have attacked him..instead they tore each other down.
2. He got Kerry way out on the limb...thre days of beating the drum.

But this new information makes me really know how smart they are. Follow me here...

A senior, named official at the DoD would never slam Russia without the President and State Departmetn go-ahead. Remeber that Putin endorsed Bush last week. Bush had to call Putin and tell him that the 'pump' is droping dime on these explosives. I took the wrap, but will not let my country go down to this guy as leader. If this guy wins and Iraqw fails you know that these Islamic terrorist are headed to Chechnya next. For the good of both of us and the GWOT, I have to out you on the weapons thing.

Putin, agreed...he was in the wrong, and most of the dirty deals he did were before 9/11 and it was then just about money...After 9/11 it became personal. If Putin wasn't worried ( heightened by 9/11) he wouldn't have bothered to move the stuf and risk his special ops guys.

History will Judge Bush,Cheney, Rummy, Powell, and Rice as incredible managers and one of the best war/for pol teams ever.

78 zulubaby  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:23:49pm

independent_with_common_sense (#22)

Your post wasn't great the first time around so I'm not sure why you felt compelled to post that nonsense twice.

79 jas  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:24:02pm

#54 independent w/o much common sense

How can you tell when sKerry lies? He moves his lips.

80 AlphaMu42  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:24:11pm

#22 independent_with_common_sense

Gee, can you post that on every thread?

81 Grapevine  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:24:12pm

Bet Syria pulls a Libya before next Tuesday.

Go George Go!

82 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:24:20pm

#51 traveler

Yep, they keep ignoring the elephant in the living room.

No different from the standard L³ debate / discussion tactic to ignore the obvious and attempt to focus on minor points, and if they win them - well - the entire premise has to be false.

Many talking heads tonight were trying to spin this in Kerry's favor by saying that there is no way the US can PROVE that the materials weren't there when the depot was liberated - because the mission of the troops there were to rearm / re-equip to move on Baghdad and not search every single bunker or every square inch.

The ultimate irony is that the research into this attempted last minute surprise by CBS, NY Times and their collusion with the DNC / Kerry campaign is - when the Pentagon releases recon / sat photos of trucks - possibly tracking them as far as the Syrian border and the involvement of Russian forces, we will have a much stronger smoking gun as to what happened to the WMD. The same WMD that Kerry and the idiots say never existed......although 1 year earlier they did exist.

The October surprise will be Kerry shooting himself in the foot.

83 oh_dude  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:24:25pm

So I guess when Putin warned GW that Saddam really had WMD, he was in a postion to know huh!?

84 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:24:32pm

#78 Zulubaby

'Cause trolls HATE TO BE IGNORED!!!!!!

85 The Other Les  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:25:19pm

Off Topic but still sucks:

Bush Voted Year's Top Film Villian

LONDON - With U.S. voters soon to pass their verdict on President George W. Bush, readers of a British magazine have rated him the year's top screen villain.

Bush won the dubious accolade, announced Wednesday, for his appearance in Michael Moore's anti-Bush documentary "Fahrenheit 9/11."

He beat a shortlist that included the nefarious Doctor Octopus, played by Alfred Molina, in "Spider-Man 2"; "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre'"s cannibalistic Leatherface; Andy Serkis' creepy Gollum from "Lord of the Rings" trilogy; and Elle Driver, the eyepatch-wearing assassin played by Daryl Hannah (news) in "Kill Bill."

Almost 10,000 people voted in the poll, conducted by Total Film Magazine.

"It is possible that people have been a little bit tongue in cheek here, but they are also saying that Bush was very scary in 'Fahrenheit 9/11,'" said the magazine's editor, Matt Mueller.

86 Glen Wishard  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:25:38pm

So much for Andrew Sullivan's line of crap:

THE IRAQIS SPEAK: More bad news for the Bush campaign:
Mohammed al-Sharaa, who heads the [Iraqi] science ministry's site monitoring department and worked with UN weapons inspectors under Saddam, said "it is impossible that these materials could have been taken from this site before the regime's fall." He said he and other officials had been ordered a month earlier to insure that "not even a shred of paper left the sites." "The officials that were inside this facility (Al-Qaqaa) beforehand confirm that not even a shred of paper left it before the fall and I spoke to them about it and they even issued certified statements to this effect which the US-led coalition was aware of."

Yeah, right. And I just got done making fun of him for it.

87 bombcar  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:25:57pm

Maybe sKerry will learn that if you play with explosives, they just might explode.....

88 BRUTUS  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:25:58pm

Eighty- Sixth?

89 mommydoc  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:26:07pm

Zaideh, I agree. A number of us have been saying that the WMDs are in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley, transported through Syria. Remember the story of the convoy of hundreds of tractor trailers?

90 motorcycle mom  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:26:11pm

#54 independent_with_common_sense

Kerry makes me think of a used cars salesman trying to sell me a POS at any cost.

I will admit Bush is not a good public speaker. I disagree with you red-neck theory. He seems more human and people like that.

91 ikoiko  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:26:59pm

# 77
Hear Hear!!
(Excellent insight)

92 Nigella  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:27:30pm

i'm beginning to think that if the pentagon or fbi or cia have proof now is the time to use it. the time to be mister nice guy is over! why can't someone from the navy accidentally release kerrys' discharge pappers or the pictures of the trucks prior to the war removing this stuff be released to the press.don't tell me that it might jeopordize national security.kerrys'election is the biggest threat to national security that could ever happen

93 jas  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:28:08pm

Yeah, the inspectors were going to find this stuff, right after they collected their big fat checks from Uncle Saddam. Of course, they were behind Jacques, Kofi and all the others scumbags on line to profit from the misery of the Iraqi people.

94 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:28:09pm

OT - Horsefeathers has an interesting posting tonight - Letter to WSJ from a Kerry classmate at Yale

Now we have new evidence of the true character of the man, as revealed by his self inventions. Here is a letter to the Wall Street Journal written by John Kerry’s Yale classmate, David Schlossberg, M.D.

The Editor
The Wall Street journal

Dear Sir/Madame:

As a graduate of the Yale class of 1966, I resent the self-serving lies and misrepresentations advanced by my classmate John Kerry. Herewith, a few corrections:

John Kerry has been using the Pershing name to dramatize his Vietnam experience, claiming to have been a close friend of Richard Pershing, the grandson of General (Black Jack) Pershing. Richard Pershing was a member of the Yale class of 1966, and he was killed in Vietnam shortly after we graduated. However, Kerry’s constant references to his ‘dearest’ friend are exaggerated and exploitative. In fact, Dick Pershing and I roomed together for all 4 years at Yale. I don’t remember John Kerry ever being in our room or even being a particular favorite of Dick’s. In this regard, it is particularly revealing that a recent biography of General Pershing, Until The Last Trumpet Sounds (by Gene Smith), includes an entire chapter on Dick, primarily on his years at Yale; the name John Kerry does not appear.
The Pershing Family did know Kerry, but they disliked him intensely. This antipathy stemmed primarily from an incident at the Pershing home on Park Avenue not long after Dick’s death: at a gathering of friends and family, Kerry worked the room with his anti-Vietnam message, incurring the undying enmity of Mr. and Mrs. Pershing and Dick’s older brother Jack, a Green Beret. The family was shocked and insulted by Kerry’s insensitivity.
Kerry has implied – as recently as the first Presidential debate – that he became disillusioned about Vietnam by his military experience. However, as early as 1965, in his Junior year at Yale, he was giving anti-war speeches; and his Class Day Oration in 1966 – prior to graduation – criticized American involvement in Vietnam. These sentiments clearly antedated his Vietnam experience. So why did he join the Navy? He told some classmates that it would help his career.
The above pattern suggests a callous and opportunistic personality – hardly what I would call Presidential.

David Schlossberg, MD
Yale ‘66

Also detailed - another Kerry lie - this one about the 1986 World Series and Kerry.

95 godfrey  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:28:15pm

Rick, I'm from Pgh. Don't live there now. I'm bummed about PA, too. Is it mainly a Dem legacy thing, with union guys, lifers?

96 independent_with_common_sense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:28:18pm

Syria, eh? Syria has 'em weapons?

Let's attack Syria then. Ooops, what was that...? WMD moved to Iran? Let's attack those mooolaaas in Iran.

Yo, haven't you learnt your lesson? Remember they told Clinton how bad Iraq was and that Saddam needed to be dealt with pronto? In 1998?? Five years later, someone in the White House fell for it. What happened there?

So now the same folks who can't believe they were wrong (or perhaps they know they are wrong but have greater designs) want to go after Syria. As the President would say, "There's an old saying in Tennessee—I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, fool me once, shame on—shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again."—

Let's hope so Mr. President.

97 AlphaMu42  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:28:49pm

#82 Athos

The October surprise will be Kerry shooting himself in the foot.

Didn't he do that already in Vietnam?

98 RicPenna  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:28:57pm

I thought farenheit 911 was a documentary? Why
was it included with those other films?

99 CrowScape  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:29:11pm

See folks, this is why your October surprise is supposed to come on the 31st, otherwise it has time to boomerang around and smack you right between the eyes.

Now THIS is a big deal. The Syria connection to Iraq's weapons hasn't had traction, it almost seemed like Republicans were grasping at straws when they brought it up. Now, however, if this story is shown to be true, it will go a long way to giving back the benifit of the doubt to Bush on the WMD angle in the public's eye.

And if it wasn't for the UN, NYT, CBS, and Kerry trying to hammer the RDX home these past couple days, diplomatic tact would have kept this news under wraps.

100 eeevil conservative  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:29:19pm

#86 Glen

Mohammed al-Sharaa,= Bagdad Bob??

101 jpsfudimo  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:29:22pm

Hey everybody I found the troll Looks like a troll

102 applesweet  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:29:34pm

i_w_c_s #22

Kerry's first term.


You can bet your bippy, it will only be a one term presidency. There won't be no second term. I figure he'll fold like a deck of cards by his second year. Then, he'll pull an LBJ and decide a second term is just too much.
He can't take the heat, and he sure as hell can't take the pressure.

103 LagunaDave  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:29:53pm

Let's not repeat Kerry's mistake.

If the story is true (including the veiled suggestion that the Russians moved the Iraqi WMD), Kerry will have to worry about beating George McGovern.

But if this guy has lost his mind and this too-good-to-be-true turns out to be, it is going to be very, very bad.

So I say, let's wait for the facts to emerge. This story is not going to be buried. It's going to decide the election.

When BC04 start talking about it, it means the story is legit, and then I'll celebrate.

104 gymnast  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:30:10pm

#54, Independent_ _ _ Flying pretty close to the ground for a blind shitbird ain't ya bud? Especially when you seem to be flyin' asswards front most. Sure would like to see your feathers fly Tuesday night when you and your boy crash.

105 paul in va  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:30:41pm

It's about time the Oct Surprise came. "Bush lied" just died. The MSM just waded into this one with the explosivegate.

And the Arafish deathwatch is on. What a night.

106 BPP  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:31:05pm

Here's the Financial Times story on this:

Mr Shaw, who heads the Pentagon’s international armament and technology trade directorate, has not provided evidence for his claims and the Pentagon distanced itself from his remarks.

Sorry guys, still not good enough.

Here's what some Iraqis are telling The New York Times:

Looters stormed the weapons site at Al Qaqaa in the days after American troops swept through the area in early April 2003 on their way to Baghdad, gutting office buildings, carrying off munitions and even dismantling heavy machinery, three Iraqi witnesses and a regional security chief said Wednesday.

The Iraqis described an orgy of theft so extensive that enterprising residents rented their trucks to looters. But some looting was clearly indiscriminate, with people grabbing anything they could find and later heaving unwanted items off the trucks.

Two witnesses were employees of Al Qaqaa - one a chemical engineer and the other a mechanic - and the third was a former employee, a chemist, who had come back to retrieve his records, determined to keep them out of American hands. The mechanic, Ahmed Saleh Mezher, said employees asked the Americans to protect the site but were told this was not the soldiers' responsibility.

The accounts do not directly address the question of when 380 tons of powerful conventional explosives vanished from the site sometime after early March, the last time international inspectors checked the seals on the bunkers where the material was stored. It is possible that Iraqi forces removed some explosives before the invasion.

But the accounts make clear that what set off much if not all of the looting was the arrival and swift departure of American troops, who did not secure the site after inducing the Iraqi forces to abandon it.

"The looting started after the collapse of the regime," said Wathiq al-Dulaimi, a regional security chief, who was based nearby in Latifiya. But once it had begun, he said, the booty streamed toward Baghdad.

4 Iraqis Tell of Looting at Munitions Site in '03

Oh, but it's The New York Times, so they must be making it up.

It's time to face reality, guys.

107 ghost of raihana bint amr  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:31:16pm

#55 Nancy 10/27/2004 08:17PM PST

Note the interesting use of language here: The inspectors didn't actually SEE the weapons in question on their March 15th visit, they only saw the "seals on the bunkers doors" were not broken THEREFORE ...


Now where did I just read that Iraq had duplicate seals?

108 Junior  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:31:25pm

#77 RightDaddy

You are so right my man. Taste the sweetness of victory.

Man I love this stuff!

109 Howling Cat  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:32:22pm

#54

Hasn't the wizard gotten back to you about that brain yet?

110 andthenblammo!  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:33:19pm

OT: Compare and contrast hair care technique in front of the cameras:

Republican

VS.

Democrat

The choice, my fellow Americans, is clear..............

111 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:33:34pm

Kerry: shallow, malleable to whatever the current audience wants, liberal, marries rich women for sport, superiority complex, lazy Senator with no career highlights, got a bandaid in Vietnam so applied for Purple Heart, Discharge is questionable -- refuses to Sign 180 form, refuses to go on Fox for live interview, lied to Congress about war atrocities....Lied about being in Cambodia, called 250 SwiftBoat Vets "Liars", reported to have lower IQ than Bush (just yesterday!)....

But wait!!!! Some people think he's a good public speaker!!!!

Guess Kerry would make a good president, then!

/sarcasm

112 Muledriver  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:34:30pm

Why do I get the feeling that this is leading up to the discovery of WMDs?

113 daver  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:34:30pm

I was going to respond to the OT fluency comment and the "Bush made the Middle East more dangerous" comment, but rather than hobnob with the losing side (the writing is on the wall...Kerry's ship is sinking) ah thank ah'll jus slip intuh some suthun drawl an...

...GAZE

114 godfrey  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:34:42pm

#77 Nice post. Sounds more than plausible.

#94 I read stuff like that and feel bad for Kerry's daughters. How can they look at their dad the same way again? I can't believe they're shielded from all of this. It must hurt. And that's yet another reason why Kerry should never have put himself forward as a candidate in the first place.

115 Parker in US  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:35:54pm
John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security

Not to sound dumb here but does this guy work the government?

OT- Regan senior must be rolling in his grave everytime RRjr opens his mouth, what a shame.

116 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:35:59pm

#97 AlphaMu42

Didn't he do that already in Vietnam?

Naw....one PH came from a his own M79 round, and another came from a grenade he dropped in rice cache and then forgot to either duck or get out of dodge quick enough picking up some shrapnel in the ass.

His feet usually are safely planted inside his mouth.....

117 bombcar  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:36:06pm

Even more crapola from the UN:


A Power Line reader writes from a .mil address:
I am a reservist stationed at CENTCOM. I did a search on SIPRNET the other day and I came up with a document with the following (unclassified) subject:

IIR 7 921 0164 03/DRAGON HUNTER - DUPLICATE U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR SEALS ENABLED IRAQI REGIME TO RELOCATE PROHIBITED MATERIALS.

Other parts of the document are classified.

The subject pretty much tells it all but I do not know the final validity of the report. Perhaps you have access to people with more information. In any case, if the UN "inspectors" only checked the seals in March, then the materials could have been moved as early as January.

From Power Line

118 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:36:18pm

I'm for getting all of the axis of evil and I could care less whether they have nukes or cems.... I mean seriously was not the attack on Russian school children mass destruction? What will it take for some people to get this.... a guy wearing a vest walks into a school and blows himself up in the US and what are the LLL gonna say? Hey.... it wasn't nuclear..... sheesh

119 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:36:20pm

June, 2004

WMDs are in Syria....

[Link: www.wnd.com...]

120 Moose Dung  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:36:25pm
121 armour995  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:36:54pm

In terms of monikers, "independent with common sense" is like "Americans Coming Together"....lies so blatant, they border on the hilarious...

122 Tats66  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:36:58pm

Am I just being too excitable here, or is this the BIGGEST story of the entire WAR?

No one could expect that Iraq would move ONLY conventional wepons to Syria.

This seems to me to vindicate EVERY ASPECT of President Bush's decision to attack Iraq.

I think this is worth of a national presidential address!!!

Is this as HUUUGE as I think it is???

123 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:37:18pm

cems=chems too.... bad fingers...

124 LagunaDave  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:37:39pm

Let's not lose sight of the forest for the trees.

The RDX/HDX business is a footnote to this story.

The story ends with this veiled hint:


Defense officials said the Russians can provide information on what happened to the Iraqi weapons and explosives that were transported out of the country. Officials believe the Russians also can explain what happened to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

If that's true, it means Iraq had WMD, and the Russians can confirm they did. If that's the case, this is the biggest story since 9/11.

125 pwinWHOH  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:38:59pm

#6 Thanks for the post and link. Speaks volumes, so
I'll join in, and tone down my rhetoric.

126 gymnast  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:39:06pm

#106, BPP. Good to see you flying wing for #54. Crash together shitbird.

127 AlphaMu42  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:39:08pm

#116 Athos

LOL!

128 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:39:41pm

Maybe if Putin plays ball we don't complain about his takeover of 'democracy'...

129 independent_with_common_sense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:39:47pm
I didn't realize that facility in public speaking is all it takes to be intelligent. Thanks for enlightening us rednecks.

It is a fact that "facility in public speaking" is a sign of intelligence--just like a high forehead, a high IQ etc.

Actually it is not, but we do not need to brandish Bush's inability to communicate clearly or speak English flawlessly as evidence of low, if any, intelligence.

When a tuxedo-attired Bush made that speech (March 2004) poking fun at the absence of WMD in Iraq (footage of him looking under the rugs at the White House, muttering "Those WMD have gotta be here somewhere!") he erased all doubt from my mind that he was unfit. Thousands of Americans who lost loved ones in Iraq saw him as unfit at that very moment.

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

When Bush confused Bin Laden with Saddam in the first debate, he settled all lingering doubts about his intelligence.

130 Nigella  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:39:56pm

BPP. DO TOY THINK LOOTERS WERE ABLE TO REMOVE 380 TONS OF WEAPONS WITH ALL THE ROADS CONTROLLED BY THE US MILITARY? DO YOU KNOW HOW INSANE THAT THEORY IS? GET REAL AND REALIZE HOW STUPID YOU ARE TO EVEN BRING IN WHAT IRAQI SOURCES ARE .SAYING REGARDING THIS SUBJECT. DO YOU REALLY THINK THERE WAS AN ORGANIZED GROUP AT THAT TIME ABLE TO CARRY OFF 380 TONS OF WEAPONS THROUGH THE US MILITAR. THERE WAS LOOTING, BUT I THINK THEY WERE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO EAT NOT FOR PLASTIC EXPLOSIVES.....

131 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:40:31pm

RED SOX WIN~!

132 Parker in US  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:40:49pm

Sox Win

133 BrooklynJon  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:40:55pm

Sox win!

134 Bad Penny  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:41:00pm

uuulluuulluuullululululuuuu! Sox win! Sox win!

135 Expat Dutch  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:41:02pm

# 21 Teacake:

That has always bothered me over the past few months of saying there were none to be found. What is going on?????

I read the ISG's report on chemical and biological warfare agents, and the word that kept popping into my head was "whitewash". Time and again leads were not, or insufficiently, investigated. This may either have been the result of limitations of time and resources, or WAY more is going on than we are being told. I'm guessing it's the latter rather than the former considering how important this issue is.

136 Glen Wishard  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:41:04pm

#106 BPP -

I'm kind of hoping that Kerry adopts your take on this. In fact, I more that suspect that he will.

After all, he's got Hobson's Choice now. He can switch topics right in the middle of his final offensive, though whatever he switches to is going to seem like a weak last resort.

Or he can damn the torpedoes and charge straight ahead, gambling on the notion that the public is as flat-out freaking stupid as the MSM is, and that he'll get elected before the truth catches up to him.

I think that's what he'll do, and he'll lose that gamble.

137 tankdemon  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:41:06pm

Red Sox Win.

At least Bostonians will have something to cheer about this year.

138 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:41:40pm

LIES! LIES! LIES!

Can't we get back to the important stuff like whether GW may or may not have missed a physical in 1972?

139 Bad Penny  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:42:03pm

Next year: the Cubs, so my long-suffering father can see them win before he.... you know.

140 oh_dude  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:43:38pm

#106 BPP

There's only one problem here. The FT story was pusblished much earlier. I remember broswing it earlier this afternoon on FT's website.

The WP story is "breaking news" (I just heard it mentioned on local radio about an hour ago). You may be right, BUT are you telling me that after the amount of time that the FT story had already been sitting out there, that the WP would make the decision to run a similar account? If I was the guy making the decision at the WP to release our version, I'd be wringing my hands over it. I'm not a news guy, but I would figure that each newroom watches the other to see what the reaction to such a story is before they commit themselves.

PLUS, This guy (Shaw) works for the government. Even though the FT story indicates that the Pentagon is "distancing" itself from Shaw do, you think they (his superiors) would let this guy run off his mouth AGAIN too another newspaper? I would imagine (even if he is a high ranking offical) he would get the boot quicker than a rabbit gets boinked for sying stuff like that with no evidence.

Remember, we're not privy to everything.

141 RepJ  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:43:47pm

Red Sox win. Curse of bambino now transferred to kerry.

142 Moose Dung  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:44:02pm
143 jas  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:44:20pm

If you read "Treachery" by Bill Gertz, Ion Mihai Pacepa, the former head of Romanian foreign intelligence, who defected to the US has long claimed that the Russians "not only sold the Iraqis (WMDS) but also "showed them how to make them disappear."

144 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:44:46pm

Troll 129...

If that is true why are all the left brainiacs breaking into and shooting up campaign HQ's, breaking peoples arms, paying people to sign up bogus voter reg forms with crack, magically increasing county population levels higher than census data, intimidating people, gearing up to throw a legal temper tantrum (already have started that one) if they don't win... is that how the superior intellect crowd acts? Welcom to 2nd grade...

145 eeevil conservative  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:44:48pm

The only thing to make this night better would be the capture and/or death of Osama and Zawqari!

146 motorcycle mom  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:44:48pm

#130

They could have used camels to move it. No one would question it. Never mind I just read anotehr post from
independent_with_common_sense

147 Bill in AZ  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:45:14pm

Here's what bugs me about this whole 380 tons of nonsense story (unless it really was a cleverly disguised Karl Rove fishhook):
MSM, the blogosphere, us minions, have talked about nothing but the 380 tons of nonsense even though we know it was not a story, MSM knows it was not a story, and Kerry certainly knows it was not a story - yet we have lost 3 days this week on this story and this story alone. It seemed too obvious how Kerry has continued to keep it in the forefront - what are we missing that is sliding by?

148 Pamela  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:45:33pm

the curse is long long long gone!! RED SOX WIN THE WORLD SERIES!!!


YIIIIIIIIHUUUUU!!


1 wish is fulfilled 4 more to go!

149 ghost of raihana bint amr  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:46:19pm

Can you believe it! The Red Sox won! And an eclipse... How's Yasser doing? (I've got champagne at the ready -- American "champagne" but good enough fer a redneck.)

150 Master Shake  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:46:37pm

#129 Dumbass_with_no_common_sense

Didn't you know?

sKerry has a lower IQ than Bush


Even the New York Slimes had the story.

151 iceman  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:46:49pm

game set match

bye kerry..... and dont let the door hit you on the way out

the question is how did they bait kerry into going for this?

with our intel and the israelis, i knew something like this would have to come up before the election but to have kerry strike first, well that is pure rovian genius

how did they do it?

was it hilary and bills advisors? or was his pathological narcissism?, or his realization that he was too far behind and he need to swing for the fences?

many people will write about this campaign and some people will tell the inside story

i took a long time for the story to load

drudgealanched

i will post article in three parts

152 motorcycle mom  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:46:50pm

Red Sox win, Packers will win, Kerry will lose.

153 susanita  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:47:20pm

I don't know much...
but I know that the independent (who is clearly not) will never leave until we stop. Please, no matter how clever you are... just let it die.
Since the source is named and vulnerable(none of the others ever are) I guess it has been too sensitive to mention until now. Why do we have to be the good guys?
I wish we could drag 'em through the mud.
I am tired of the high road. It is bad for my blood pressure.

154 AG in Houston  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:47:36pm

I can't believe I am alive to see the Red Sox break the 86 year old Curse of the Bambino.

Cheers to the BoSox.

155 mommydoc  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:47:38pm

Athos (#94) That is an amazing letter. I'm shocked they even printed it. It speaksvolumes for what a shit he's been for so long.

156 RicPenna  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:47:50pm

what genie do you have #148 Pamela? I usually
get 3 wishes.

157 Bad Penny  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:47:55pm

Rep J, I'm gonna go post that everywhere, in hopes that the meme sinks in.

158 iceman  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:47:56pm

here is the whole thing

part one of 3

Russia tied to Iraq's missing arms


By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Russian special forces troops moved many of Saddam Hussein's weapons and related goods out of Iraq and into Syria in the weeks before the March 2003 U.S. military operation, The Washington Times has learned.
John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, said in an interview that he believes the Russian troops, working with Iraqi intelligence, "almost certainly" removed the high-explosive material that went missing from the Al-Qaqaa facility, south of Baghdad.
"The Russians brought in, just before the war got started, a whole series of military units," Mr. Shaw said. "Their main job was to shred all evidence of any of the contractual arrangements they had with the Iraqis. The others were transportation units."
Mr. Shaw, who was in charge of cataloguing the tons of conventional arms provided to Iraq by foreign suppliers, said he recently obtained reliable information on the arms-dispersal program from two European intelligence services that have detailed knowledge of the Russian-Iraqi weapons collaboration.
Most of Saddam's most powerful arms were systematically separated from other arms like mortars, bombs and rockets, and sent to Syria and Lebanon, and possibly to Iran, he said.
The Russian involvement in helping disperse Saddam's weapons, including some 380 tons of RDX and HMX is still being investigated, Mr. Shaw said.
The RDX and HMX, which are used to manufacture high-explosive and nuclear weapons, are probably of Russian origin, he said.
Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita could not be reached for comment.
The disappearance of the material was reported in a letter Oct. 10 from the Iraqi government to the International Atomic Energy Agency.
Disclosure of the missing explosives Monday in a New York Times story was used by the Democratic presidential campaign of Sen. John Kerry, who accused the Bush administration of failing to secure the material.
Al-Qaqaa, a known Iraqi weapons site, was monitored closely, Mr. Shaw said.
"That was such a pivotal location, Number 1, that the mere fact of [special explosives] disappearing was impossible," Mr. Shaw said. "And Number 2, if the stuff disappeared, it had to have gone before we got there."
The Pentagon disclosed yesterday that the Al-Qaqaa facility was defended by Fedayeen Saddam, Special Republican Guard and other Iraqi military units during the conflict. U.S. forces defeated the defenders around April 3 and found the gates to the facility open, the Pentagon said in a statement yesterday.
A military unit in charge of searching for weapons, the Army's 75th Exploitation Task Force, then inspected Al-Qaqaa on May 8, May 11 and May 27, 2003, and found no high explosives that had been monitored in the past by the IAEA.
The Pentagon said there was no evidence of large-scale movement of explosives from the facility after April 6.
"The movement of 377 tons of heavy ordnance would have required dozens of heavy trucks and equipment moving along the same roadways as U.S. combat divisions occupied continually for weeks prior to and subsequent to the 3rd Infantry Division's arrival at the facility," the statement said.
The statement also said that the material may have been removed from the site by Saddam's regime.
continued on part 2

159 iceman  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:48:31pm

part 2 of 3

According to the Pentagon, U.N. arms inspectors sealed the explosives at Al-Qaqaa in January 2003 and revisited the site in March and noted that the seals were not broken.
It is not known if the inspectors saw the explosives in March. The U.N. team left the country before the U.S.-led invasion began March 20, 2003.
A second defense official said documents on the Russian support to Iraq reveal that Saddam's government paid the Kremlin for the special forces to provide security for Iraq's Russian arms and to conduct counterintelligence activities designed to prevent U.S. and Western intelligence services from learning about the arms pipeline through Syria.
The Russian arms-removal program was initiated after Yevgeny Primakov, the former Russian intelligence chief, could not convince Saddam to give in to U.S. and Western demands, this official said.
A small portion of Iraq's 650,000 tons to 1 million tons of conventional arms that were found after the war were looted after the U.S.-led invasion, Mr. Shaw said. Russia was Iraq's largest foreign supplier of weaponry, he said.
However, the most important and useful arms and explosives appear to have been separated and moved out as part of carefully designed program. "The organized effort was done in advance of the conflict," Mr. Shaw said.
The Russian forces were tasked with moving special arms out of the country.
Mr. Shaw said foreign intelligence officials believe the Russians worked with Saddam's Mukhabarat intelligence service to separate out special weapons, including high explosives and other arms and related technology, from standard conventional arms spread out in some 200 arms depots.
The Russian weapons were then sent out of the country to Syria, and possibly Lebanon in Russian trucks, Mr. Shaw said.
Mr. Shaw said he believes that the withdrawal of Russian-made weapons and explosives from Iraq was part of plan by Saddam to set up a "redoubt" in Syria that could be used as a base for launching pro-Saddam insurgency operations in Iraq.
The Russian units were dispatched beginning in January 2003 and by March had destroyed hundreds of pages of documents on Russian arms supplies to Iraq while dispersing arms to Syria, the second official said.
Besides their own weapons, the Russians were supplying Saddam with arms made in Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria and other Eastern European nations, he said.
"Whatever was not buried was put on lorries and sent to the Syrian border," the defense official said.
Documents reviewed by the official included itineraries of military units involved in the truck shipments to Syria. The materials outlined in the documents included missile components, MiG jet parts, tank parts and chemicals used to make chemical weapons, the official said.
The director of the Iraqi government front company known as the Al Bashair Trading Co. fled to Syria, where he is in charge of monitoring arms holdings and funding Iraqi insurgent activities, the official said.
Also, an Arabic-language report obtained by U.S. intelligence disclosed the extent of Russian armaments. The 26-page report was written by Abdul Tawab Mullah al Huwaysh, Saddam's minister of military industrialization, who was captured by U.S. forces May 2, 2003.
The Russian "spetsnaz" or special-operations forces were under the GRU military intelligence service and organized large commercial truck convoys for the weapons removal, the official said.
Regarding the explosives, the new Iraqi government reported that 194.7 metric tons of HMX, or high-melting-point explosive, and 141.2 metric tons of RDX, or rapid-detonation explosive, and 5.8 metric tons of PETN, or pentaerythritol tetranitrate, were missing.
The material is used in nuclear weapons and also in making military "plastic" high explosive.

160 Zaideh  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:48:39pm

#54 incoherent with the sense of a doorknob
"Too depressing. Let's go back to talking about the Russians."

"Let's"? Let's?
That's in the first person plural I believe.
Who the hell is this cake sacker talkin' to? Hisself?

161 J.D.  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:48:44pm

#138 Geepers

Can't we get back to the important stuff like whether GW may or may not have missed a physical in 1972?

[Link: static.vidvote.com...]

162 Chiizzipain  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:48:48pm

OT: CONGRATS to Boston !!

163 Nigella  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:48:50pm

OT; sorry about my spelling, i just learned how to use the computer,and i make a lot of mistakes, but i am passionate about the safety of the usa, and i can't stand by and watch the msm steal this election from bush who i feel will be the best for our nation and the world.thanks for not critizing my grammar.

164 Expat Dutch  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:49:08pm

#54 independent

from the heart

sKerry doesn't have a heart, doofus. He sold it to the devil along with his soul in exchange for a shot at the Presidency.

165 iceman  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:49:10pm

part 3

Defense officials said the Russians can provide information on what happened to the Iraqi weapons and explosives that were transported out of the country. Officials believe the Russians also can explain what happened to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

end

166 pwinWHOH  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:49:17pm

I Wanna see this great Development in all the HEADLINES, FRONT Pages TOMORROW,

but, The MSM does belong to sKerry ------- for now.

Time to rev up the printer and post on downtown telephone poles.

167 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:49:25pm

153 Okay.... Sorry.. The sad starving troll eyes got the best of me.... had to feed... sheesh I'm a pushover...

168 Babe  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:49:35pm

ABC News is reporting there is a descrepancy in the amount of explosives missing.

Iraqi officials may be overstating the amount of explosives reported to have disappeared from a weapons depot, documents obtained by ABC News show.

The Iraqi interim government has told the United States and international weapons inspectors that 377 tons of conventional explosives are missing from the Al-Qaqaa installation, which was supposed to be under U.S. military control.

But International Atomic Energy Agency documents obtained by ABC News and first reported on "World News Tonight with Peter Jennings" indicate the amount of missing explosives may be substantially less than the Iraqis reported.

[Link: www.abcnews.go.com...]

169 CommonSense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:50:21pm

Does anyone think that Bush had the answer before sKerry had an issue?

Mr sKerry, got to words for ya: Set Up

170 armour995  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:51:07pm

If true, the expectations of high voter turnout may fail to materialize, as some liberal Dems may stay home.....some, not most - the F911 believers will turn out anyway....

171 Master Shake  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:51:11pm

#153 susanita

But if we don't keep the trolls busy here, they'll be out stealing signs, shooting at Republican campaign offices, trying to run people over (a.k.a. exercising their freedom of expression), etc.

172 gromster  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:51:28pm

#54 independent_with_common_sense

Ever see that split screen of Kerry and Bush on the campaign trail: Kerry talks effortlessly, casually, from the heart, never has a need for a script or a teleprompter.

Bush on the other hand cannot complete a sentence without glancing at the script. Painful.

But you know what--the average redneck in the red state looks at Bush murdering the English language and feels comforted...

Bush graduated from Yale, so he has to have a brain.

Secondly, I get more than tired of people who rip on Bush because he is not an eloquent speaker at all times.

I happen to be very intelligent, and I am college educated, and yet I do not communicate as well verbally as I do with the writtten word.

Do not assume that because someone is not an effective (or brilliant) speaker that this necessarily means that he or she is stupid.

Even if George W. Bush does not state his positions as brilliantly as does Kerry*, the content of his message is far better.

* not that Kerry even states his position per se - I am not even sure exactly what he stands for, because he's so vague and unwilling to say what he believes (other than "I like the UN!').

You, independent_with_common_sense, must be a Bush-basher who is absolutely steamed that the Bush administration was apparently right about the WMDs.

173 independent_with_common_sense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:52:19pm

This is not a breaking story--unless October 2003 counts as breaking.

[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

Aah, the wild-eyed, far-right Front Page Mag (once a favorite read of mine when I was desperately looking for any bit of news that supported the Iraq war case).

If you liked that, you might also like this:

Did you know Saddam's weapons have been found?

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

That Saddam had armed his troops with chemical weapons?

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

174 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:53:26pm

169 I do, but my personal feeling is that the MSN set up Kerry unwillingly.... they don't have many options to score a hit against Bush, it was some bogusly timed story or the TANG thing (oh wait they did that again too)... but I do feel that this info was coming out and it just so happens to tie in beautifully to the NYT hit... Just my thoughts...

175 motorcycle mom  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:53:32pm

OT
I heard a radio add today pushing one of the F911 lies. The one about how the Saudi’s were flown out of the country before the ban on air travel was lifted.

176 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:53:48pm

This story just continues to fall apart.

Discrepancy Found in Explosives Amounts

But the confidential IAEA documents obtained by ABC News show that on Jan. 14, 2003, the agency's inspectors recorded that just over 3 tons of RDX was stored at the facility — a considerable discrepancy from what the Iraqis reported.

The IAEA documents could mean that 138 tons of explosives were removed from the facility long before the start of the United States launched "Operation Iraqi Freedom" in March 2003.

177 HULUGU  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:54:05pm

we were all informed of this previously by ion pacepa the former head of rumanian intelligence--he tipped us to russian black dispersal and concealment teams that they use to get rid of their client states' wmds etc.--we should find the turncoat juive--primakov--and kill him his family and his dogs--yes that was an ad hominem attack and an interspecial one too--i'm pissed but not amazed at russian corruption--its not for nothing that they live either under czars, dictators or autocrats--they suck at being human

178 armour995  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:54:25pm

Now it's clear why Bush didn't comment the first day...he gave Kerry more rope...and Kerry was dense enough to oblige...great instincts for someone who wanted to be Prez

179 RightDad  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:54:33pm

Two things:
Rick and godfrey..Pa is going to happen for Bush...Dem, Catholic Union Men and Catholic Moms are breaking for Bush. Kerry leave minorities cold, and Union thugs are just getting old around here. Laslty, The Rural turnout is going to be huge. My family is always split 3-3 and this year we are 6-0 Bush and my borther is a MFA in creative writing.

Second thing...I saw another thread that the DoD has Sat pics of truck moving in and out of AlQaqqa prior to the War starting. This news is out, so when kedwards refutes the DoD guy on the trail..by the 6pm news on thursday the sat pics will be up on all the news shows...ROve is a mean competitor and total victory is all he will settle for.

180 rogue1  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:54:36pm

#60 "they are on our side"

will see.

181 Duke Newcombe  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:55:02pm

#27 rogue1

I almost think the Russians get what they deserve concerning the Belsan school hostage "incident". They are no friend of America.

You fucking asshole.

182 mich-again  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:55:45pm

173 IWCS

Perception is reality. By the way, are you really James Carville. You sure sound like him.

183 john5z  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:56:07pm

Gromster:

Totally agree with you. In fact one of our LLL acquaintances remarked on how stupid the President was. I asked why? Reply on his difficulty speaking.

I retorted that my son had difficulty speaking - did that mean that he is stupid. . . well no was the response. She knows better. (My son does very well in regular school and Hebrew school.) I suggested that just because the President may have a problem with one thing it doesn't mean that the whole brain is defective.

184 gymnast  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:56:12pm

I seem to recall something about a Russian convoy trying to get out of iraq via Syria during the early days of the way and getting caught/shot up by special forces operators. The Russian story was that this was their Diplomatic staff but they had plenty of opportunity to notify US that they were getting their people out and didn't. Perhaps a lizard with a better memory-research capability can recall the event.

185 eeevil conservative  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:56:25pm

Do ya'll really think Bush or ANYONE set Kerry up? I mean, I know this is jUST AWESOME, but I don't think Bush is that knieving. i don't see him plotting all this out. He would have had to get Mo' (El Baradei) to pull this stunt, get NYT to run the story before 60 minutes did on Sunday night, etc., etc..

I just think God is good. It has happened this way, because it is His perfect plan.

Just my 2 cents

186 AlphaMu42  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:56:35pm

It just keeps getting better every day! I can't wait for Nov. 3rd.
I'd just love to be able to ask JFnK, "Hey John, why the long face?"

187 ferris  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:57:32pm

Hey, aren't these guys supposed to be grading our answers on the Global Test?

Nice job J F'n K!

188 daver  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:58:18pm

I can see it now....

From the Desk of
President George W. Bush

November 3, 2004 - Things to do:

1. Recover Iraqi weapons from Syria, by force and without the French, Germans and Russians, if necessary.
2. Provide tactical support for Israeli raid on Iranian nuclear facilities.
3. Begin pre-invasion planning for North Korea.
4. Begin acting like a second-term President with a PLAN!
5. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

189 independent_with_common_sense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:58:26pm

The ultimate defense of Bush's speaking handicap?

Here it is:[Link: stuartbuck.blogspot.com...]

By all the traditional measures -- grades, test scores, educational accomplishments, etc. -- I'm reasonably smart. But if you put me on TV in front of 50 million people, I'd be so nervous that I'd probably fumble for an answer if simply asked my name. And from my experience, I'm no exception. Some of the smartest people I've ever known are simply not that impressive at speaking even in private conversations, let alone on national television.

A war time commander in chief should

* speak simply, clearly, and in perfect English (unless he happens to be a recent immigrant)

* be a real veteran of war where politicians made grave miscalculations (not a stay at home soldier)

190 susanita  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:58:40pm

#167
don't feel bad!! its just that I met this troll earlier today on the Arafat thread.
We should be all smiles. Kerry is going to be embarrassed and the global test is a pile of #2.

191 Fight The Hypocrisy  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:58:41pm

#106 BPP

Are you seriously trying to come in here and make a point ny quoting the NYLies, I mean Times (no really, I do mean Lies)? Laughable.

This isn't the blind majority that you're so used to shoving around here, so I think it's you who needs to try again.

192 CommonSense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:59:08pm

Bush HAD to know about the intel on Russians moving shit to Syria.....he and the rest of the admin pointed out early on about weapons going to Syria.makes you wonder how much the pres does know.....which is good.

193 eeevil conservative  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:59:38pm

#188 daver

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I CAN"T WAIT!

194 armour995  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 6:59:54pm

IWCS: Give it a rest...you are transparent as hell

195 Pamela  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:00:04pm

the Red Sox winning is the only celebration John Kerry will be celebrating this year!

196 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:00:24pm

RED SOX RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

197 topdeck  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:00:30pm

Not only were the explosives moved before the invasion began, perhaps with the help of Russian forces but when it is pointed out how impossible it would be to steal 380 tons of anything the number suddenly changes?

How about this: Saddam moved the explosives before the war. Maybe he actually planned to use them, maybe he wanted to hide them. Maybe he was moving them the entire time, the numbers the inspectors find keeps getting smaller and smaller. But beyone all this one thing remains the same:

IT IS POSSIBLE TO MOVE WEAPONS WE KNEW IRAQ HAD 4 DAYS BEFORE THE WAR BEGAN. IT WAS POSSIBLE TO TAKE 380 TONS OF MATERIALS AND HIDE THEM WHERE NOBODY HAS SEEN THEM SINCE. COULD THIS MEAN THAT OTHER MATERIALS REMAIN HIDDEN?

198 gooddad  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:00:44pm

Could this be setting up for that 'Gog- Magog' war I have heard about all my life?

199 RicPenna  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:00:54pm

Right Dad in re #179. I live in rural Pa. If one is
not in Pittsburgh or Philadelphia, one is in rural PA
except when there is a home game at state college.

The population of the two large cities always cancels
out the rural, at least in my 49 short years. (Reagan
excluded)

200 Keyser Sozay  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:00:59pm

Looks like another purple heart for kerry on this news!

201 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:01:00pm

#173 Independent

Thanks for proving our point -- October 2003 proves it was IGNORED by the MSM.

Just like you conveniently ignore anything bad about Lurch the idiot dilletante.

202 john5z  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:02:25pm

#195 Pamela:

Actually Kerry made a cheap shot at the Red Sox chances during his last debate. Said that something that the administration was doing was wishful thinking - just like expecting the Red Sox to win.

203 Fight The Hypocrisy  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:02:44pm

#189 iwcs

Then that rules Kerry out because his novel legth, all-over-the-map answers to the simplest questions are anything but simple.

204 topdeck  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:03:12pm

* speak simply, clearly, and in perfect English (unless he happens to be a recent immigrant)


So you would support a recent immigrant for President of the United States?


* be a real veteran of war where politicians made grave miscalculations (not a stay at home soldier)


Abraham Lincoln
F.D.R.

You can shut up now.

205 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:03:34pm

I see a Kerry campaign spokesmen today said that there was a window of time the explosives could have been removed before the war.... heh.... sensed the horse was beat to death and not workin... or sensed what else was coming?

206 grammy lo  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:03:52pm

Surprise!!!

207 BPP  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:04:53pm

130 Nigella

Here's David Kay, that notorious Bush hater, on whether the stuff could have been taken, from CNN:

I must say, I find it hard to believe that a convoy of 40 to 60 trucks left that facility prior to or during the war, and we didn't spot it on satellite or UAV. That is, because it is the main road to Baghdad from the south, was a road that was constantly under surveillance. I also don't find it hard to believe that looters could carry it off in the dead of night or during the day and not use the road network.
208 susanita  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:05:34pm

Ok, I am a hypocrite:
#189
The commander in cheif should speak in perfect Eglish unless he is a recent immigrant????
The US president has to be born in the US.

I thought I learned earlier today but I want to save my yard sign.

209 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:05:39pm

gymnast (#184),

Your memory is spot on. I can't find a link though.

210 oh_dude  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:05:44pm

195 Pamela

Are you serious? JK is no BoSox fan. Correction... He rooted for the BoSox before he rooted against them:-)

211 eeevil conservative  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:05:48pm

Independent With NO SENSE

Sounds great, but I would rather be a stay at home soldier than a liar, co-conspirator to the enemy, the tool used against my fellow soldiers in captivity, the catalous used to manipulate the other soldiers families, and a TRAITOR! Oh, and a wimp that needs a medal to prove he got a wittle band-aid!

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

You are soooo cute! I think it so precious how you pretend to be anti-Bush, but you really have a huge crush on him!! SO CUTE!!

212 NY Nana  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:06:04pm

#195 Pamela

Hanoi John should root for the Rockies, not the Red Sox..he was born in Denver...can you imagine how he is going to take credit for this?????

I neverthought I would live to see this happen...Babe Ruth must be rolling over in his grave! His daughter rooted for the Red Sox, BTW!

I can only imagine what it is like in Boston now!

213 Michael Moore's Dromedary  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:06:14pm

#181 Duke

I'm piling on..........


kids shot in the back? a-hole deluxe....

214 Hari Seldon  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:07:06pm

major OT

in case your under a rock or something...
THE RED SOX JUST WON THEIR FIRST WORLD SERIES SINCE 1918!!!!!!!!
the curse of the babe is DEAD!!!!!!

215 Muledriver  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:07:08pm

#106

First ABC goes to the Viet Cong for verification and now the NYT goes to Al-Queda.

And folks like you eat it up.

F-ing sad.

216 bombcar  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:07:11pm

#185 Don't you see? Karl Rove planned everything! He even created the Soviet Union so that the Russians would be able to help Saddam (which he created while building North Korea) just so Bush will win! Karl Rove is teh evil genius!

/moonbat.

217 Jakester  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:08:23pm

From #6 soccer4ever

218 Hari Seldon  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:08:37pm

OT
and to add on...
notice the red sox called themselves "the cowboys..we dont listen to anyone" ..now which canidate is that??
i knew they were gonna win when i saw the lunar eclipse...

219 mich-again  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:09:14pm

In a related note, the Massachusetts legislature today moved to rename the Red Sox the Blue Sox to reflect current Zogby poll data.

220 schmilt  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:09:38pm

Poor ol' Michael Moore........

221 Master Shake  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:09:40pm

208 susanita

LOL!

222 BPP  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:09:43pm

136 Glen Wishard

Thank you for that bit of nonsense. Kerry will stick to this because the preponderance of evidence clearly shows that we did not secure that site.

I feel more and more confident that Bush will suffer from these disclosures.

223 gymnast  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:09:48pm

#209, geepers. I can't remember if there was a thread on it or if it was within a thread. About 5 or 6 days after the war started if memory serves and into the middle of the night.

224 CommonSense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:09:56pm

John Kerry was a presidential candidate.............before he wasn't.

After he loses does he keep his job in the Senate? Not that he has done much there.

225 Solomon X  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:10:13pm

Ion Pacepa's article is here detailing how Russia his Saddam's WMD.

226 eeevil conservative  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:10:29pm

Ethics question to all LGF'ers

I know it is unethical to steal signs, but a neighbor around the corner has a Kerry Edwards sticker on there MAILBOX! ARRG I try and go the other direction just so I don't have to see it. Look, I would never steal a sign, or a mailbox. I am not a malicious person, but I do love practical jokes. I have a sense of humor..... what if instead of stealing a sign, I just, PUT a Bush/Cheney sign in their yard. You know- a little GIFT. Is that MEAN???

227 Jakester  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:10:39pm

From #6 soccer4ever

To pray for the cleansing and purifying fires of the Holy Spirit to burn out all impurities and works of the flesh within members of the Body of Christ, resulting in a wave of true holiness.


What is this obsession with born-agains and fire? Do you clean your house with flamethrowers? Nutcases!

228 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:10:49pm
229 Nigella  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:11:08pm

BPP, DAVID KAY IS A BUSH HATER!HE HAD NOTHING GOOD TO SAY ABOUT BUSH ONCE HE RETURNED.BUSH HAS ONE FLAW , HE IS LOYAL TO THOSE WHO SERVE HIM. LOOK AT THE EX CIA DIRECTOR. THE POSSIBILITY THAT THAT MANY TRUCKS COULD LEAVE EVEN AT NIGHT IS NEXT TO IMPOSSIBLE. GET OVER IT IT IS A FALSE STORY AND AN OLD ONE PUT OUT TO EFFECT THE ELECTION IN THE LAST DAYS OF THE CAMPAIGN.

230 Pamela  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:11:23pm

#202 john5z , #210 oh_dude, #212 NY Nana


Yep, you are all most ocrrect!


I'm sorry I forgot all about those facts. My brain is on overload these days. My very very bad.

Time to fuel my brain with some chocolate.

231 CommonSense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:12:17pm

#226

That would be most appropriate.

232 rogue1  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:12:25pm

#189 independent_with_common_sense

it is not about speaking simply, and clearly. it is about be able to make tough decsions. something kerry can no do.

233 motorcycle mom  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:12:28pm

226, I do not think it is going too far. But if you were to put 50 signs then maybe

234 jas  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:13:02pm

#207

The current head inspector in Iraq - Charles Duelfer

http://216.26.163.62/2004/me_iraq_10_18.html

"A lot of materials left Iraq and went to Syria," Duelfer said. "There was certainly a lot of traffic across the border points. We've got a lot of data to support that, including people discussing it.

235 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:15:08pm

#222 More and more confident? LOL Come on besides getting a kick out of stirring up a debate here you can't possibly believe that... this is Bagdad Bob-like.... I feel more and more confident... yeah...

236 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:15:15pm

Nigella,

Please stop yelling. It's hard to read.

237 J.D.  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:15:29pm

Debka reported the weapons going into Syria IIRC.

238 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:15:31pm
239 independent_with_common_sense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:15:34pm

We were looking for WMD and ties to al-Qaeda: that country was Iran, not Iraq.

But, in all fairness to the dyslexic, ADD President, he was off by only a letter. A LETTER.

But Halliburton still made off like a bandit. How about that.

240 mich-again  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:15:48pm

226 eevil conservative..

Thats not illegal. Just don't get caught doing it.

I did that to a friend once just for laughs. Put a huge "John Dingell" sign on his lawn. (He hates the old fuck) Man was he pissed. BWAHAHAHAHAHA

241 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:16:16pm

#189

Are you really that lame - I mean, come on now, only girlie trolls bring out the canard that Bush is a dunce with "evidence" of test scores etc.

Question - does a real veteran have the balls to skip out from his unit, his "band of brothers", and his command only 1/3rd of the way into his tour - while leaving them to fight for him? Does a real veteran hold clandestine meetings with the leadership of the enemy in a foreign capital - during the war - while still collecting the pay of the US Military - and then return to parrot their demands?

Sounds like you have a major lack of common sense....so it's entirely fitting that you support JEffinK.

242 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:16:28pm

#227 Jakester

Sounds Catholic to me. Not all Christian denominations accept that.

243 jas  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:16:31pm

#222

I feel more and more DELUSIONAL that Bush will suffer from these disclosures

There, I corrected it for you.

244 Gretchen  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:16:34pm

I love this this story, it may end up Pro-Bush. If Russians trucked this stuff to Syria then it goes to reason they trucked WMDs too.

One has to wonder if Putin endorsed Bush as a CYA or because he's serious about all the terrorists he's been in bed with all these years now that he knows they'll attack Russians too.

245 Nigella  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:17:02pm

GEEPERS, IF YOU CAN'T TAKE THE HEAT GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN!

246 gymnast  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:17:27pm

#228, Geepers. Right on! I googled- - Russian convoy attacked in iraq - and found that the story broke on 4-6-03. The Ruskies bandaged up their wounded and kept going under diplomatic immunity and didn't press the issue. Al Guardian tried to make us out as the bad guys.

247 ghost of raihana bint amr  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:17:31pm

#226 eeevil conservative
It's not a federal violation to deface a mailbox or something?

248 eeevil conservative  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:17:31pm

239

Oh- so you would approve an attack on Iran???

249 LagunaDave  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:18:00pm

Man, looking back at Bush's response over the last days, he just invited Kerry to self-destruct, and Kerry cheerfully obliged.

If the story is right, of course...

250 AlphaMu42  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:18:15pm

#172 & #183

I'm with you on this. Some prefer to see W's not-so-perfect speaking as a sign of stupidity. Suckers!
Do they really believe that he simply cannot pronounce the word "nuclear" properly? Newsflash.... it's deliberate. He's taking advantage of his lack of fluency to make himself seem more personable; more like the "common man". Next time he's on TV speaking, watch real closely. When he pauses, just before "big" words, it looks like he's holding back a smile. It's because that pause is deliberate, not because he needs to think about the word first. And it works.

251 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:18:36pm

I still smell Troll skank.....Maybe their medicine will kick in (or nurse Ratchet will turn the lights out) and it will smell better in here.

252 oh_dude  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:18:56pm

226 eeevil conservative

I hope that was a rhetorical question. You know better than that! LLL's and ethics? That's an oxymoron...

Bush will draft you!
Bush will take your social security!

Ahhhh!

Ethics is not in their vocabulary.

253 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:19:32pm
254 rogue1  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:19:43pm

#189 independent_with_common_sense

But Halliburton still made off like a bandit. How about that.

they made off like a bandit under clinton too. how about that.

255 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:19:49pm

I don't get the Haliburton thing.... nobody said anything when Clinton was using Haliburton... I dunno... I am so dumb I don't understand why using Haliburton for Clinton was okay and for Bush it's bad....

256 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:19:58pm

#252

Don't forget: HALLIBURTON!!! HALLIBURTON!!!

BIG CORPORATION!

TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH!!!!!

257 Expat Dutch  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:20:01pm

#147

MSM, the blogosphere, us minions, have talked about nothing but the 380 tons of nonsense even though we know it was not a story, MSM knows it was not a story, and Kerry certainly knows it was not a story - yet we have lost 3 days this week on this story and this story alone. It seemed too obvious how Kerry has continued to keep it in the forefront - what are we missing that is sliding by?

Exactly. This whole story was so f'n stupid from the beginning, it's just mind boggling. Just because sKerry has used it to put his foot in his mouth - again - still doesn't make it a worthwhile story. All it really shows is how desperate and ignorant of military matters the MSM and the Kowards are.

I wonder if any of this intel was discussed in the Intelligence Select Committee meetings the Kerry missed? Wouldn't that be sweet irony.

258 wateshay  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:20:05pm

#173

So, the fact that it was reported over a year ago makes it less likely to be true?

Oh, and this was the only reason I needed to support the war.

259 Moose Dung  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:20:33pm

#168

You gotta be shitting me, ABC says:

"The documents show IAEA inspectors looked at nine bunkers containing more than 194 tons of HMX at the facility. Although these bunkers were still under IAEA seal, the inspectors said the seals may be potentially ineffective because they had ventilation slats on the sides. These slats could be easily removed to remove the materials inside the bunkers without breaking the seals, the inspectors noted. "

Easily Removed Ventilation Slats!!!! WTF???

And the seals were supposed to do what?

dung.

260 iceman  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:20:48pm

all three networks are running repeats of news before this was broken

it is like reading an old newspaper

see CNN (on the east coast of the usa) now for bill safire, joe biden and maureen dowd

all talking about the past, interesting

mo do, skanky

261 Ooops  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:20:49pm

Kerry time to admit you made a mistake about the eplosives.

But I hope you don't because the news to come will bury you!

Who knows "maybe" the New news to come will be:

(1) Nuclear trigger explosives to Syria (already news);
-- hmmm I wonder why Iraq/Syria needed these.
(2) WMD's (anthrax, nuclear weaponery machinery) now in Syria
(3) UN IAEA bribery

262 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:20:49pm

#253 Rayra

What the hell took you so long to get in here? This troll's stinking to high heaven!

263 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:20:52pm

BPP (#222),

I feel more and more confident that Bush will suffer from these disclosures.

How?

Look, the vast majority of people aren't players. They don't have a scorecard so they just see the headlines.

This just reinforces the fact that Saddam was an incredibly dangerous person who did have thousands of tons of weapons.

If the MSM had any brains at all they'd have started running stories showing a wilted and defeated Saddam. Ill and locked up, a threat to no one.

264 Keyser Sozay  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:20:53pm

Me thinks me know why NO APOLOGY NECESSARY!

265 BPP  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:21:35pm

249 lagunaDave

If the story is right, of course...

Keep dreaming!

266 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:21:40pm

#238 Good post

267 petermcc  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:21:41pm

It is certainly not in this topic but my Red Sox have won a championship. How sweet it is!

268 Fondu  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:21:53pm

#22,54,66,96,129,173, 189, 239 independent_with_common_sense
#106, 207, 222 BPP

Ah, I was wondering when the trolls would crawl out of the cracks. Stop jumpin around for a minute and hold for the spray.

269 aviator  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:21:55pm

Please guys, can we just stop feeding these idiot f*ckhead trolls? The troll infestation has gotten worse in the last few days and it will only get worse between now and next week.

270 gbl  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:22:06pm

The story make total sense. Now just connect the dots"

Report: U.S suspects Iraqi WMD in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley

[Link: www.worldtribune.com...]

Tuesday, August 26, 2003

U.S. intelligence suspects Iraq's weapons of mass destruction have finally been located.

Unfortunately, getting to them will be nearly impossible for the United States and its allies, because the containers with the strategic materials are not in Iraq.

Instead they are located in Lebanon's heavily-fortified Bekaa Valley, swarming with Iranian and Syrian forces, and Hizbullah and ex-Iraqi agents, Geostrategy-Direct.com will report in Wednesday's new weekly edition.

U.S. intelligence first identified a stream of tractor-trailer trucks moving from Iraq to Syria to Lebaon in January 2003. The significance of this sighting did not register on the CIA at the time.
.........
UN inspectors: Saddam shipped out WMD before war and after

[Link: www.worldtribune.com...]

Friday, June 11, 2004

The United Nations has determined that Saddam Hussein shipped weapons of mass destruction components as well as medium-range ballistic missiles before, during and after the U.S.-led war against Iraq in 2003.

The briefing contained satellite photographs that demonstrated the speed with which Saddam dismantled his missile and WMD sites before and during the war. Council members were shown photographs of a ballistic missile site outside Baghdad in May 2003, and then saw a satellite image of the same location in February 2004, in which facilities had disappeared.

The UNMOVIC report said Iraqi missiles were dismantled and exported to such countries as Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey. In the Dutch city of Rotterdam, an SA-2 surface-to-air missile, one of at least 12, was discovered in a junk yard, replete with UN tags. In Jordan, UN inspectors found 20 SA-2 engines as well as components for solid-fuel for missiles.

(So much for "tagged" sites or equipment)

271 Beagle  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:22:41pm

Ever notice the 'tolerant' 'diverse' Left is the side which makes The Bell Curve argument when they think it suits them? Similar to their tolerant brown shirt activities, they are what they supposedly hate.

272 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:22:45pm
273 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:23:44pm

#239 Moron without a clue

Explain to me why the US intelligence services, Canadian, British, French, German, Russian, and Israeli intelligence services all said Saddam had WMD between 1998 and 2003? Or why the leaders of Russia, UAE, and Jordan also advised the US and Gen Franks that Saddam had WMD? Or the comments of Kerry, the Breck girl, and many other leading democrats indicated that Saddam had WMD not only in 1998 when they, with the Republicans voted to make regime change in Iraq national policy, but also right up to and through the vote to authorize President Bush to use force against Saddam?

Explain what happened to the claims of Richard Clarke that Iraq and AQ were jointly producing VX gas in Sudan - and had a history of joint work which lasted until Clarke was let go from the Bush Administration (undoubtedly over his "stellar" experience fighting terrorists in 1993-2000) or the fact that even after the war started in 2003, Bill and Hillary Clinton still said Saddam had WMD and was a threat?

Oh, and Halliburton made off like a bandit - funny - all of that revenue never made much of an impression on the stock price - it's down 33% or so from several years ago.

BuhBye, thanks for playing. Charles, do we have some lovely parting guests for our departing troll du jour?

274 eeevil conservative  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:24:04pm

There are only 3 companies in the world that do (can do) what Haliburton does. Only one is an American company- Haliburton. I thought Kerry and the LLL's were against OUTSOURCING!!!! Talk about flip-flops and waffleling! Geesh!

275 It's Miss Donna V. to you  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:24:20pm

The troll wrote that the CinC should

speak simply, clearly, and in perfect English (unless he happens to be a recent immigrant)

Dumbass, the CinC can't be a recent immigrant. Only native-born Americans can become President and the President is the CinC. Finish reading your junior high civics textbook, genius, and leave us alone.

This story is a beaut. Remember, folks, Bush is a great poker player. Although, I think what he's doing now is playing a damn good game of chess.

Kerry's in check.

276 Junior  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:24:58pm

Anybody see how the LLL Blogs are taking this story?

277 tankdemon  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:25:11pm

189- independent of common sense

That leaves JF'nK out.

speak simply, clearly, and in perfect English

When has Kerry ever been clear about anything? Do you remember the mumbling and bumbling coning out of his mouth before he muttered the words "uh..uh...uh..the test..uh the global test.

* be a real veteran of war

You mean like Lincoln, FDR, Wilson or Truman?

278 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:25:56pm
279 andthenblammo!  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:26:41pm

You know, I never really have sat down and watched Mr. Holland's Opus; but, somehow, I feel like I have..............

280 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:27:33pm

Maybe the fact the Kerry campaign started backing off the story earlier today might show you how the LLL will eventually react...

281 mich-again  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:28:04pm

239 IWCS

ooooh... the dreaded Haliburton reference..

Please name another company that could have done what Haliburton did. I'll wait for your response. And please don't rehash the silky pony's BS about overbilling. 'Field Orders' are estimated first, negotiated later. At least in the real world where I live and work.

282 andthenblammo!  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:28:10pm

#277 tankdemon:

Truman did serve in the US Army artillery in World War One.

283 dr_dog  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:28:48pm

If this is accurate, I think it has the potential to blow up in Bush's face as much (or more) than Kerry's.
We'll know in a few days.

284 newsjunkie_ky  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:29:19pm

OT

See the latest Bush ad "whatever it takes". Very powerful.

link

285 tankdemon  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:29:32pm

Some comments about when you are ever allowed to bring up the word Halliburton-- only when you are able to come up with the name of another company that would have been able to perform the same services. (I don't think I should even need to add the phrases "as cheaply and starting as quickly" because none of you'LLL be able to.)

286 a.k.a. Will  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:30:08pm

OT: Someone asked if the Sox win signaled the end of the Bambino curse. Maybe not. They won one world series during the 20th century. Now they've won one in the 21st century.

So, has the curse been broken or merely reset?

287 ghost of raihana bint amr  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:30:14pm

Nigella, we all have strong feelings. Please don't type in all capital letters throughout your entire post. It's grating. Thank you.

288 MichelefromLA  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:30:18pm

#96 Democratic sock monkey without any sense -

Look...I'm trying to read these posts, and every now and then you add your moronic outbursts...which you can't possibly think are intelligent, humorous or interesting. Why is it all the Kerry supporters that come here make absolutely no sense? It's scary that people like you are able to vote.

In my head, I picture you as a pimply-faced highschool kid with absolutely no sense and an inferiority complex about your manhood.

Step aside and let the grown-ups talk.

289 Fondu  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:30:19pm

#270 gbl 10/27/2004 09:22PM PST

There was also a report in September of Syria using chemical weapons in Sudan. Didn't hear much of a rustle about it in the media here.

Syria tested chemical arms on civilians in Darfur region

290 Aslan  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:30:22pm

#239 and #273

Athos, you are of course correct. A simple logic experiment puts the 239 kindergarten thinking in perspective. Please read this simple analogy. Liberals will twist themselves into painful position just to say things like "There were no WMD."

291 AlphaMu42  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:31:31pm

#226 eevil

Just make a small contribution to the Bush campaign in their name. I'm sure that they'd just love to get a "thank you" letter from W! : )

292 RightDad  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:31:36pm

I hate trolls
#189...your guy is a coward... i will just say that there is no rule that makes you leave early with 3 Purple Hearts. A leader would have said, I am still here can still fight and I will see my men through the 12 months I signed up for. Wonder what his guys really thought when they ad to face the next 8 months of peril.

Gen Franks - 3 purple heart in Nam...never even thought of coming home..just how to better deliver arty sheel on VC to protect his troopers

Col North wounded 5 times only took two PHs so he could stay with his riflre co.

Sen. McCain was offered to leave POW because his dad was an admiral, he declined becasue it would violate the FIFO rule.

Honor, Duty, Courage...Someday when guys like you and Kerry are defeated these words will mean something again.

293 Jakester  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:31:57pm

OT
The uber traitor-trolls are planning a riot if when Hanoi Kerry loses.
See Pledge of Action to Stop A Stolen Election! Time to stock up on ammo for riot suppression. It seems that the fact that every sober analysis showed that the voting problems were typical of lower income districts and Bush won is lost on these shites who idea of an ideal democrat is Rosa Luxembourg. They even said that the 3000 votes, in a largely Jewish district, for Buchanan were part of the plot. Moonbats extraordinaire!

294 Art2Gecko  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:32:06pm

"Profiteering" Haliburton??

Wow, Haliburton is really raking it in from it's Iraq operations....

Halliburton’s Iraq-related work contributed approximately $1.4 billion in revenues in the third quarter 2004 and $4 million of operating income before corporate costs and taxes.

[Link: www.sec.gov...]

4MM in income is all??? before costs and taxes no less....

man, They need more sweet deals like this from the administration...lol

295 CommonSense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:32:09pm

#277

sKerry gets his foreign policy advice from the DNC sitting around a game of Risk and some 40's. I guess this is his global test.

296 nvdoyle  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:32:10pm

Am I the only person who thinks that this whole issue is a damned distraction? Not to say that we shouldn't be investigating it or shooting down the usual Dem/MSM lies, but...

Stuff went missing in a war? Really? Next they'll be bleating that the soldiers have guns, and some people actually got hurt!

But it's 380 tons of super-duper explosives!

No, it's not. It's 380 tons of stuff that's maybe 60% better than TNT.

It was under UN seal! They told us about it!

Like that means a G-d-damned thing. If the UN said the sky was blue, I'd check. Twice.

We should have secured the site!

I'm sure it was on the list. But there was one above that: Fight the war. Tends to take precedence. Sorry about that lack of precognition. Nice to see your hindsight's 20/20, as ever, though.

It's a sign of Bush's incompetence/lack of plan!

He's the POTUS, not a security guard. Please.

But still, 380 tons! Missing! On our watch!

Nobody seems to have any idea when this stuff went gone, or where it got to. Before, during, after, in Putin's root cellar, Syria, Poughkeepskie...so what? That's my question, so what? So there's less than a percent more boom-stuff floating around Iraq - so what?

297 topdeck  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:32:33pm

Did someone just say Haliburton?

I guess that means a lefty was losing an argument.

298 Acrobat  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:32:43pm

Anyone think this is a very clever multiple play of both the MSM, Kerry and Putin by both Allawi and Bush? They set up the story with the UN who feed it to MSM-> Kerry, then play Putin against satellite photos to make him play ball from now on?
Wouldn't this be the perfect way to cut the heart out of the terrorists as well?

299 Nigella  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:33:00pm

Sorry, my typing is not very good, and I thought it would look better in all capitals. I won't do it again.

300 Jakester  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:34:03pm

#189 independent_with_common_sense
Duh, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, LBJ never served in combat. Oh yeah, you have to be a citizen to be prez, so much for common sense

301 Tats66  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:34:03pm

LOL TopDeck!!

302 andthenblammo!  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:34:17pm

277 tankdemon:

Not hassling you, just a history buff: Lincoln served in the militia during the BlackHawk wars:

Ninety days of beans and stanky blankets

Now Clinton, he just reported for booty.............

303 topdeck  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:34:29pm

"Listen Daddy! Teacher says, every time a lefty says Haliburton an angel gets its wings!"

304 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:34:30pm

297 Good point... heh heh

305 riverofpearls  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:35:12pm

189 independent_with_common_sense 10/27/2004 08:58PM PST

A war time commander in chief should

* speak simply, clearly, and in perfect English (unless he happens to be a recent immigrant)

* be a real veteran of war where politicians made grave miscalculations (not a stay at home soldier)

According to your criteria then Franklin roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln were not fit to be president during two wars in American history. World War II and The Civil War WOW!

I think some people have problems with President Bush's drawl. They need to read Sandsberg's Lincoln. Mr. Lincoln spoke with the drawl of Kentucky. His family was from Kentucky remember. When he first gave a speech to the Northeastern crowd they were upset and took him for a backwoodsman (which he was by the way) but, they began to listen to him and forgot about their prejudices against other regions of the country. It is too bad people today are not as courteous and patient as they were then. Some people just cannot get past their prejudices.

306 tankdemon  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:35:30pm

282-

I guess I found out how you got your moniker. Thanks for correcting me on that, I feel humbled.

307 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:36:05pm

Semi-OT,

Kerry in the second debate:

"The president, I don't think, is living in a world of reality with respect to the environment,'' Kerry said. "Now, if you're a Red Sox fan, that's OK. But if you're a president, it's not.''

308 eeevil conservative  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:36:42pm

#231, 233, 240, 247, 252, 291


LOL LOL LOL LOL !!! I htink I will go with the contribution!!!

Thanks

and goooooonight folks!!!

309 Junior  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:36:54pm

#273 Athos

I couldn't have said it better myself. AMEN brotha!

310 KWH  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:37:01pm
Did someone just say Haliburton?


I guess that means a lefty was losing an argument.


No, that's when they use the: "Did you know Cheneys daughter is a lesbian?"

311 stuck in california  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:37:08pm

I think it is time for bed! Got to thinking, I have been called a wingnut, a Nazi, and a goat fucker (because I live in CA) today on LGF. And I was minding my own business! (Kind of)


But then again, those are the nicest thing I've been called all month by anyone.

All friends and family are Dems and I DO have a big mouth :-O

CA is bad for me....

312 Moose Dung  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:37:12pm

#195 Re: Redsox & Kerry...


tommorrow's stump speech by JF'nK..."and you wouldn't believe what a thrill it was for me to be sitting right behind home plate as the Red Sox broke thier....

huh? what?

...oh yeah I was in Minnesota last night.....

dung.

313 motorcycle mom  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:37:23pm

Nigella 10/27/2004 09:33PM PST

You do make good points, glad you are on our side.

314 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:37:45pm

#286 a.k.a will

The Sox won more than 1 in the 20th Century. I think they won 4 between 1904 and 1919.

This Yankee fan thinks they've broken the snide. Now, they've still got about 22 more to win to catch up.....

315 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:38:02pm

#302 andthenblammo!

Now Clinton, he just reported for booty.............

LOL!

I'll bet Clinton's seen Mr. Holland's Opus....

316 andthenblammo!  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:38:37pm

#306 tankdemon:

Don't feel humble, fella, feel EMPOWERED! Now go take those facts and beat the wheee out of some trolls for ol' blammo!

/yay for me mode off/

317 gymnast  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:38:57pm

Geepers. My Man, The Reverand Al said that if that trash-mouth white boy, BPP, makes any more comments about accents and the way Southern American gentlemen speak english he is going to find him and pound lumps on his haid until he learns him to say please, thank you, and y'all. Al says he can't let them northern carpet baggin' amature copperheads get away with that crap if we are ever goin' to have harmony and rythm in this great nation.

318 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:39:07pm

gymnast,

I'm thinking those "diplomats" are more likely spetsnaz EOD.

319 riverofpearls  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:40:39pm

Great cartoon

[Link: cagle.slate.msn.com...]

320 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:41:02pm
321 Zaideh  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:42:04pm

#284 newsjunkie_ky
"See the latest Bush ad "whatever it takes". Very powerful."

I've mentioned this at least once before but it's worth repeating: the Dub radiates the most internal grit when he's holding back tears.
I dislike many of the things he's done/not done in domestic affairs but I can't not like him.

Reminds me, in that regard, of my softhearted superman grandfather.

322 Fight The Hypocrisy  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:42:04pm

I'm pretty new here (to posting, not reading) and I know its probably not my place to say, but I think its time to just ignore the troll, though I agree its fun to slam him. He's obviously lying by calling himself independant ( just because you're registered that way, doesnt mean you are). I am registered independant but you dont see me going over to the tree-hugging, whoa-is-me, I hate myself because I'm an American sites pretending I only made up my mind last week.

Anyway, I just think were to close to the end zone to get thrown off message now. Let me know if I'm out of line.

323 Nancy  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:42:23pm

Try this article as to who is more intelligent --Kerry or Bush:


[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

324 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:42:30pm

#300 Jakester

Duh, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, LBJ never served in combat. Oh yeah, you have to be a citizen to be prez, so much for common sense

Aren't you being a little unfair to LBJ? After all Dugout Doug gave him a Silver Star for a 10 minute check flight in a bomber that was, at least, within 1000 miles of a Zeke fighter.

325 zelda  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:42:31pm

#227 The 'fire' in this prayer refers to 'enlighten' a light to live in an upright fashion. As in Pentecost when the apostles were enlightened by the Spirit. Christians are not nutcases. I respectfully read a lot of Hebrew words that I don't understand and would never call someone a nutcase. I know many that pray for our Nation especially now.

#242 No it is not a prayer that this Catholic of 57 years has ever prayed, but I understand the message. I think all Christian denominations accept that the Spirit of God is with us whether we acknowledge it or not. I would hope that our leaders would be enlightened. I am really concerned for my country.

326 notupallnight  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:43:19pm

WMD in Syria
do you think that Syria, realizing the position that they are in since the fall of Iraq, being cut off from is's oil pipeline, and the increased pressure from US may do as Libia did?

To Syria, With Love
by Noel Sheppard
08 October 2004

The Associated Press has reported that Syria's President, Bashar Assad, is willing to discuss a serious peace offer with Israel, and wants to cooperate with the United States in stabilizing Iraq.

[Link: www.intellectualconservative.com...]


www.intellectualconservative.com...] target="_blank">

327 Fondu  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:44:07pm

#318 Geepers 10/27/2004 09:39PM PST

Your druthers is my ruthers

328 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:44:09pm

How many 'f'-bombs do ya think Kerry is dropping right about now? Heh heh...

329 BullDawg  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:44:26pm

Someone must have hacked the Washington Times Link for this thread topic. I read it earlier now it has mysteriously disappeared.

330 tankdemon  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:44:37pm

302 andthenblammo

I knew about a Lincoln in the militia, but he never saw combat even during the Blackhawk wars. He was captain of his company, but the only war story I have ever heard about him telling was when he was marching his men one day the came to a stone wall with a narrow gate. He forgot the order to advance them by twos through the gate to, so he halted them all and told them "Fall out. We will fall in again in two minutes on the other side of that wall"

331 fiveonefive  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:44:46pm

Oh my god did the Pentagon just call Russia a hostile state?

332 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:44:48pm

#322

Nope, you're absolutely right. I succumbed to the temptation. It plays much better to let their turds fall flat and step over them.

333 independent_with_common_sense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:45:08pm

Leading German newspaper endorses Bush

Despite opinion polls showing more than 80 percent of Germans want to see Bush replaced by Democrat challenger John Kerry, Germany's influential newspaper said it was endorsing the president because of its tough stance on terror and because he would not pressure Germany to send troops to Iraq.


Oh those wily Germans--stood their ground and got Bush (underprepared American kids actually) to fight their share of the "War on Terror" and American taxpayers to foot the bill. Perfect.

334 oh_dude  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:45:12pm

#256 traveler

Let's talk irony. Almost all LLL's love to tout the "anti-big-evil-corporation" mantra.

The funny thing is they swallow stuff from really slanted corporations like Viacom (CBS- Memogate, MTV- Crock the Vote) hook line and sinker.

But oh God. Not Halliburton!

335 Dashing Dasher  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:45:47pm

This is what is wrong with any Global Test!

sKerry should learn from this that all is fair in love, war and oil. His immaturing as a statesman is showing!

336 DocDublU  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:46:15pm

Great op-ed in our local AZ neighborhood paper this morning. A gal puts her kids in the car and drives out of town to Schnef Farms, a pumpkin patch and petting zoo, i guess. They spend 40 minutes or so picking their pumpkins and buying some halloween stuff, and then pay their bill and leave. As they are leaving the parking lot, the mom spots a sign which can only be seen while leaving the Farm; it is not facing the street so it is not readable as you pull in. It say, Thanks for visiting our Farm. And we support our president, George W. Bush and pray for his re-election" or words to this effect. The mom, who turns out to be a super lib and a hyphenated wife to boot (you know, like Heinz-Kerry) goes ape and it ruins not just her day but her whole weekend.

BWAHAHAHHAAHAHAHA

337 Nigella  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:46:43pm

motorcyclemom, thanks for the kind words.I'm just a California grandma, which makes me all the more concerned about the future of the USA because of my children and grandchildren.I'm not overly religious but I pray John Kerry does not steal this election,as I fear it would be the ruination of the USA and possibly the world.

338 DocDublU  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:46:45pm

woops. should have OT'ed that post. sorry.

339 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:46:58pm

#329 BullDawg

I went via the Drudge link - got a partial page. Went to Front Page, then clicked on the article - got to it fine.

340 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:47:08pm

#325 Zelda

The purification by fire is Catholic ---

The Spirit of God is among us -- it's up to us whether we choose to accept it individually.

341 ghost of raihana bint amr  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:48:43pm

Nigella, I appreciate your contributions and your typing seems fine.
Good night, more or less, and may tomorrow bring satisfying news about Arafat's health.

342 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:49:11pm

#334 Oh Dude

Right!

And isn't it ironic that that wonderful Subaru Car Salesman, Alec Baldwin, also shills for GE, which also makes, uh, MISSLES????!!!

Which makes me wonder: any chance he'll really leave the country if Dubya wins another term?

343 independent_with_common_sense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:49:32pm

Leading German newspaper endorses Bush (takes the prize for the most back-handed endorsement ever):

Despite opinion polls showing more than 80 percent of Germans want to see Bush replaced by Democrat challenger John Kerry, Germany's influential newspaper said it was endorsing the president because of its tough stance on terror and because he would not pressure Germany to send troops to Iraq.

And, wait for it, this:

But "Bild", a conservative tabloid newspaper which often focuses on the private lives of German celebrities, argued that after the problems Bush has faced in Iraq the Republican leader would be more open to forging links with other nations.

[Link: www.expatica.com...]

Oh those wily Germans--stood their ground and got Bush (underprepared American kids actually) to fight their share of the "War on Terror" and American taxpayers to foot the bill. Perfect

344 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:50:23pm

I'm lighting a candle -- still smells in here!

345 a.k.a. Will  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:50:51pm

Athos #314

The Sox won more than 1 in the 20th Century. I think they won 4 between 1904 and 1919.

I stand corrected. Haven't really kept up with baseball for a number of years. Someone on radio did speculate whether the curse had been broken or merely reset. Guess they meant would the 21st century start out great, then plod along with 80+ more years of frustration.

346 notupallnight  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:51:13pm

To Syria, With Love
by Noel Sheppard
08 October 2004

The Associated Press has reported that Syria's President, Bashar Assad, is willing to discuss a serious peace offer with Israel, and wants to cooperate with the United States in stabilizing Iraq.
...

Given all this, is it possible that pragmatism is overcoming extremism in this Arab nation? Might the young Assad be recognizing that the burgeoning democratizations of Afghanistan and Iraq are possibly leaving his nation in the dust, and that as a relatively minor oil producer that does not possess nuclear capacity, he has very little leverage with America at this point in time? Furthermore, is it conceivable that, much like Khadafy in Libya, Assad is realizing that he might be the next target of the Bush Doctrine, and that he is running out of time to negotiate a more favorable outcome for himself and his nation?

not sure why the lonk did not work. I may need some help from those of you more talented than I. I am new here.
I am so greatful for LGF!!!

347 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:51:20pm
348 KWH  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:51:23pm

traveler
It's just the johns, flush then repete until smell is gone.

349 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:52:46pm
350 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:52:59pm

#348 KWH

Got it......:) I'll keep flushing the shit down.....

351 superninja  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:54:45pm

I said it before, and I'll say it again. The Cold War never ended. It has only been momentarily arrested because we helped cripple their economy. America makes allies out of necessity at the moment as we always have and most of the world governments will always be against us. It's been this way, I think, since WWII when American became the world leader.

The problem is, America has been bi-polar in choosing their leaders. We want peace, we want to look good to the world, but while we're looking good to the world, the evil people leading these countries are doing things on the sly.

The world war has gone underground, and the terrorists will weaken the West while the Chinese and Russians will pretty much laugh it off - because they don't care about their people. They'll pretend to, but they really don't care.

While I feel for the victims of Beslan, the first thing that Putin did was use it as an excuse to consolidate power.

Russia was a leopard without spots for a brief moment in history, and now the spots are coming back. There was an article on Drudge the other day about how the Russians are back to spying on Britain at Cold War levels. That means they are spying on us as well.

The Russian government is not an ally or a friendly nation. Neither are the French, the Germans, and the French certainly have never been.

We cannot have a Democrat in the White House, and certainly not someone like John Kerry, or the "moral darkness" which Kerry spoke of during Reagan's administration will be for real to anyone that's not a nihilist or a LLL.

We cannot have a Democrat in the White House for the next hundred years, unless they are willing to discard their internationalist views. But I feel pretty confident that won't happen.

They side with the enemy because they either don't see the enemy or they agree with them. Either one is too dangerous to allow into power. One is stupid, the other is a traitor (as I believe Kerry is).

We need peace through strength more than ever now, and that's Bush, not Kerry.

352 Ooops  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:55:02pm

update to Wash Times Story includes the following:

Defense officials said the Russians can provide information on what happened to the Iraqi weapons and explosives that were transported out of the country. Officials believe the Russians also can explain what happened to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

Russia will explain sooner rather then later cause Putin prefers GWB as pres.

353 zelda  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:55:13pm

traveler I didn't say it wasn't. I said I had never verbalized it in the way but immediately understood the context.

354 Moose Dung  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:55:14pm

#228 Re: Russins Being Shot At While Fleeing Iraq

Gotta luv the last graph:

"Russia is opposed to the U.S.-led war against Iraq. However, President Vladimir Putin has attempted to adopt a softer tone in recent days, saying a U.S. defeat would not be in Russia's interests and pledging continued cooperation with the United States."

You know a guy like Putin is only gonna respect you when you kick some serious ass. He also realized that day that GWB wasn't a guy to be f'd with!!!

dung.

355 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:55:48pm

Howord The Screamer whiner Dean

"We've already lost the moral leadership of the world," said Dean, who now makes his career as a public speaker.

"We at least need a president who will give respect to those who disagree with us."

Oh and for anyone who didn't already know, the republicans have rigged the elections:

Dean also said he expects a repeat of the voting irregularities which plagued Florida in the 2000 election. He said voting machines in the state remain inaccurate.

U.S. lost moral leadership under George W. Bush, says ex-candidate Dean

356 Doss  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:56:00pm

Russia is our enemy- plain and simple. Does anyone else remember that story about how Russia had given Saddam a list of Russian assassins that he might want to use on American targets? The story just kind of faded away among the cacophony of news at the time. I tried to find the article a while back, but couldn't.

357 Sapper  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:56:20pm

#4

If this is our October Surprise, we should have released it weeks ago. You know MSM will hem and haw long enough to give Kerry a chance. You know, doing their "fact-checking" like they did with the swiftboats stuff.

(Funny how negative Bush stories don't require so much fact-checking.)

358 Master Shake  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:56:27pm

Does anyone have a pet Medusa so that when we

GAZE

it will have more effect?

;)

359 quercus albus  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:57:29pm

#189

A war time commander in chief should
* speak simply, clearly, and in perfect English (unless he happens to be a recent immigrant)

Recent immigrant? Commander in chief?

The last time I read The Constitution, the President was required to be a natural born citizen and a resident for 14 years?

Ok. Unless he/she became a citizen prior to the Constitution, but that was a few years ago....

360 traveler  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:57:42pm

#357

Fact checking! --- Hell, they don't require facts!

361 Axiom  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:58:18pm

A Russian connection to aiding Iraq is really going to fuel the Caspian Oil Conspiracy Theory.

US goes to war in Iraq.

Oil Prices skyrocket after getting bogged down in conflict.

Russians(The Caspian Oil Players) help Iraq cover their WMD tracks making the US look bad.

OPEC defenseless in stabilising prices.

Russians make billlions.

362 Lightning_Man  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:58:19pm

#312

The Lord said to the state of Massachusetts "You may have one miracle in 2004. Do you want the Red Sox to win the World Series or John Kerry to be president?"
And the people said "Four more years!"

I'm not George W. Bush, but I approve this message.

363 Zaideh  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 7:58:54pm

#322 Fight The Hypocrisy
"Let me know if I'm out of line."

You weren't.
And don't worry, we will if it happens.
Read the LGF prayer.

"Before you post, remember the LGF prayer:
Lord, grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls,
the courage to debate with honest opponents,
and the wisdom to know the difference."

364 Doss  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:00:01pm

Here's the article on Russia's true nature.

Top secret documents obtained by The Telegraph in Baghdad show that Russia provided Saddam Hussein's regime with wide-ranging assistance in the months leading up to the war, including intelligence on private conversations between Tony Blair and other Western leaders.Moscow also provided Saddam with lists of assassins available for "hits" in the West and details of arms deals to neighbouring countries.
365 Mellow Traveller  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:00:20pm

Remember when Bush said that he had looked Putie Pute in the eyes and saw his inner soul (true soul?). I don't know - something about a soul.

That's an ad for Kerry maybe.

When I first heard what Bush said I remember thinking, "Gotta learn to keep that sort of thing to yourself big guy."

Anyway, that quote from Bush was the first thing I thought of when I read this story.

366 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:01:58pm
367 Sapper  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:02:11pm

[quote]What totally baffles me is that everyone knew at that time everything was going to Syria while the UN was clowning around .... so why does the cia and bush now agree that there were no wmd... and why keep quiet about what happened, when it was obvious at the time. That has always bothered me over the past few months of saying there were none to be found. What is going on?????
[/quote]

#21 teacake,

I have been asking myself this forever. For cripes sakes guys! Stop making us battle the MSM and the moonbats for you. Stick up for yourselves. And if you waited this long to reveal what we already knew, FINALLY, you waited too long. This race does not need to be even within 10 points if the whitehouse would just slap back every now and then.

368 applesweet  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:02:29pm

Rayra #272

Don't you wish some folks would go over to Charle's faq and learn a bit about this site before defecating everywhere?
We talked about Saddam's wmd for months, about where they were, how they got there and who took them.
Then some dumb sh1t comes along and spouts off with ignerent glee over this 'breaking' news. Sheesh!
None of them go back to source about the fact there were wdm before the invasion of Iraq, and how they have not been accounted for by anyone including the UN inspectors.
They sure as hell didn't just get up on their own legs and walk through a worm hole.

369 independent_with_common_sense  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:02:41pm
You know a guy like Putin is only gonna respect you when you kick some serious ass. He also realized that day that GWB wasn't a guy to be f'd with!!!


Look Russia is no friend of America. Putin is no friend of Bush. The Cold War never ended. Putin looks at Bush and sees the fool who will bring America down--just like Reagan looked at Gorby and saw the guy who would bring down the Iron Curtain.

The Americans armed the Mujahideen in Afghanistan who went on to defeat teh Soviets, hastening the collapse.

Now the Russians see America overextended militarily and they like it--what better way to weaken America than to encourage Bush?

370 Doss  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:03:10pm

Another interesting line from the article:

The list of assassins is referred to in a paper dated November 27, 2000. In it, an agent signing himself "SAB" says that the Russians have passed him a detailed list of killers. The letter does not describe any assignments that the assassins might be given but it indicates just how much Moscow was prepared to share with Baghdad. Another document, dated March 12, 2002, appears to confirm that Saddam had developed, or was developing nuclear weapons. The Russians warned Baghdad that if it refused to comply with the United Nations then that would give the United States "a cause to destroy any nuclear weapons".
371 soccer4ever  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:03:11pm

Tomorrow's Washington Times features an article by Bill Gertz in which John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, says that Russian troops "almost certainly" helped Saddam's men clean the Al Qaqaa site out before the Iraq War started.

We'll have more on this tomorrow. One way or another, it appears clear that the 380 tons of explosives that are now "missing" were moved by Saddam prior to the start of the war. I suppose the point is too obvious to be worth making, but 380 tons is a lot of material--approximately 38 semi-truck loads. Yet it has, apparently, completely disappeared, probably because it was shipped to Syria before the war started. Do you suppose that, whereever the 380 tons are now, there might be a little extra room for some vials of anthrax, sarin, nerve gas, etc.?

DEACON adds: If Shaw's version, as reported by the Washington Times, holds up and (as importantly) gets heard, the consequences for Kerry could be serious. The Senator will have (a) jumped to a conclusion that wasn't supported by the facts, (b) assumed the incompetence of our troops, (c) confirmed President Bush's position that Iraq had weapons worth worrying about, and (d) unleashed evidence that, as Rocket Man notes, suggests that chemical and biological weapons could easily have been moved out of Iraq just before we invaded. In light of the final point, though, what puzzles me is this: if the Defense Department has evidence that the Russians helped clean out Alqaqaa, why haven't we heard about this before now (or did I just miss it). Evidence that Iraqi weapons, any weapons, were moved out of the country by the Russians would have been helpful to the administration long before now. Maybe we learned about it recently, as relations with Russia have improved.

[Link: powerlineblog.com...]

372 Robin Goodfellow  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:03:28pm

The link seems to have changed.

It is now here.

Also, the full-text (in case it disappears mysteriously again):

Russia tied to Iraq's missing arms


By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Russian special forces troops moved many of Saddam Hussein's weapons and related goods out of Iraq and into Syria in the weeks before the March 2003 U.S. military operation, The Washington Times has learned.
John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, said in an interview that he believes the Russian troops, working with Iraqi intelligence, "almost certainly" removed the high-explosive material that went missing from the Al-Qaqaa facility, south of Baghdad.
"The Russians brought in, just before the war got started, a whole series of military units," Mr. Shaw said. "Their main job was to shred all evidence of any of the contractual arrangements they had with the Iraqis. The others were transportation units."
Mr. Shaw, who was in charge of cataloging the tons of conventional arms provided to Iraq by foreign suppliers, said he recently obtained reliable information on the arms-dispersal program from two European intelligence services that have detailed knowledge of the Russian-Iraqi weapons collaboration.
Most of Saddam's most powerful arms were systematically separated from other arms like mortars, bombs and rockets, and sent to Syria and Lebanon, and possibly to Iran, he said.
The Russian involvement in helping disperse Saddam's weapons, including some 380 tons of RDX and HMX, is still being investigated, Mr. Shaw said.
The RDX and HMX, which are used to manufacture high-explosive and nuclear weapons, are probably of Russian origin, he said.
Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita could not be reached for comment.
The disappearance of the material was reported in a letter Oct. 10 from the Iraqi government to the International Atomic Energy Agency.
Disclosure of the missing explosives Monday in a New York Times story was used by the Democratic presidential campaign of Sen. John Kerry, who accused the Bush administration of failing to secure the material.
Al-Qaqaa, a known Iraqi weapons site, was monitored closely, Mr. Shaw said.
"That was such a pivotal location, Number 1, that the mere fact of [special explosives] disappearing was impossible," Mr. Shaw said. "And Number 2, if the stuff disappeared, it had to have gone before we got there."
The Pentagon disclosed yesterday that the Al-Qaqaa facility was defended by Fedayeen Saddam, Special Republican Guard and other Iraqi military units during the conflict. U.S. forces defeated the defenders around April 3 and found the gates to the facility open, the Pentagon said in a statement yesterday.
A military unit in charge of searching for weapons, the Army's 75th Exploitation Task Force, then inspected Al-Qaqaa on May 8, May 11 and May 27, 2003, and found no high explosives that had been monitored in the past by the IAEA.
The Pentagon said there was no evidence of large-scale movement of explosives from the facility after April 6.
"The movement of 377 tons of heavy ordnance would have required dozens of heavy trucks and equipment moving along the same roadways as U.S. combat divisions occupied continually for weeks prior to and subsequent to the 3rd Infantry Division's arrival at the facility," the statement said.
The statement also said that the material may have been removed from the site by Saddam's regime.

continued...

373 Lurking Texasgal4Bush  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:04:22pm

#111 you forgot:
Self serving, ego maniac, narcissistic.
I rest my case.

374 BPP  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:04:36pm

263 Geepers

This just reinforces the fact that Saddam was an incredibly dangerous person who did have thousands of tons of weapons.

True, but more importantly it reinforces the further point that if we knew that, we should have had more troops to secure the various sites, which is what Bush critics have been saying for a long time.

Here's Andrew Sullivan on the topic:

What about the fact that a war begun as a means to restrain Saddam's weaponry actually helped disperse it? That's the real issue. And as the facts emerge, I've become convinced of one astounding thing: the Bush administration didn't care very much about the dangers from Saddam's alleged WMDs, or conventional munitions. Safeguarding those sites, keeping those weapons out of the hands of terrorists, was not a major priority.

That's what people are realizing. If Bush were truly serious about keeping weapons out of the hands of terrorists, he would have erred on the side of too many troops, not too few. If he had been serious about turning Iraq into a model Middle Eastern state, he wouldn't have allowed Rumsfeld to blow off the Future of Iraq project at the State Department, which anticipated many of the problems we're facing. And on and on down the list of blunders, miscalculations and willful blindness.

You and other Bush defenders keep pointing to Saddam and say he's no longer a threat. But that just rings hollow when our troops are being attacked every day by weapons that Saddam had stored away, whether artillery shells or RDX.

Any way you look at this, Bush comes off terribly.

375 Moose Dung  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:04:58pm

I LOVE the Halliburton refs from the LLLs, cause frankly the idea of a bunch of dead terrorists and a US company makin' a shit pile o' money both make me real happy.

dung.

376 DocDublU  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:05:11pm

#333 IND W/COMM SENSE

I have been reading your posts in several threads over the past week. You consider yourself independent and I can see why. You are all over the place with your comments and inconsistent in your criticisms. In this respect you are really quite a Democrat and I suspect that you are just a lonely Troll who gets a thrill out of staying up late with the adults. As to this latest of your drivel, it is not conceivable that an army can be both "underprepared" as you say, and waltz through 10 divisions of Iraqi mechanized infantry and armored cav. in less that a week as was accomplished by coalition forces in OIF. These are mutually exclusive events. Underprepared how? Specifically.

Second, the point of this article is the implied notion that Kerry, if elected, will pressure Germany to paricipate in the Iraqi clean up by offering rebuilding contracts which German leaders will agree to accept. They are in no way standing their ground after duping us to do their dirty work. Your analysis is flawed and frankly naive.

Finally, it is humorous that you seem to need to remind yourself with your screen name (Independent With Common Sense) of who you are and that your points of view have value. Most of the wonderful people that I read and enjoy on this site just speak from their hearts without the pretense and pomposity you engender.

377 Robin Goodfellow  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:05:48pm

continuation...


Russia tied to Iraq's missing arms


By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

[....]

According to the Pentagon, U.N. arms inspectors sealed the explosives at Al-Qaqaa in January 2003 and revisited the site in March and noted that the seals were not broken.
It is not known whether the inspectors saw the explosives in March. The U.N. team left the country before the U.S.-led invasion began March 20, 2003.
A second defense official said documents on the Russian support to Iraq reveal that Saddam's government paid the Kremlin for the special forces to provide security for Iraq's Russian arms and to conduct counterintelligence activities designed to prevent U.S. and Western intelligence services from learning about the arms pipeline through Syria.
The Russian arms-removal program was initiated after Yevgeny Primakov, the former Russian intelligence chief, could not persuade Saddam to give in to U.S. and Western demands, this official said.
A small portion of Iraq's 650,000 tons to 1 million tons of conventional arms that were found after the war were looted after the U.S.-led invasion, Mr. Shaw said. Russia was Iraq's largest foreign supplier of weaponry, he said.
However, the most important and useful arms and explosives appear to have been separated and moved out as part of carefully designed program. "The organized effort was done in advance of the conflict," Mr. Shaw said.
The Russian forces were tasked with moving special arms out of the country.
Mr. Shaw said foreign intelligence officials believe the Russians worked with Saddam's Mukhabarat intelligence service to separate out special weapons, including high explosives and other arms and related technology, from standard conventional arms spread out in some 200 arms depots.
The Russian weapons were then sent out of the country to Syria, and possibly Lebanon in Russian trucks, Mr. Shaw said.
Mr. Shaw said he believes that the withdrawal of Russian-made weapons and explosives from Iraq was part of plan by Saddam to set up a "redoubt" in Syria that could be used as a base for launching pro-Saddam insurgency operations in Iraq.
The Russian units were dispatched beginning in January 2003 and by March had destroyed hundreds of pages of documents on Russian arms supplies to Iraq while dispersing arms to Syria, the second official said.
Besides their own weapons, the Russians were supplying Saddam with arms made in Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria and other Eastern European nations, he said.
"Whatever was not buried was put on lorries and sent to the Syrian border," the defense official said.
Documents reviewed by the official included itineraries of military units involved in the truck shipments to Syria. The materials outlined in the documents included missile components, MiG jet parts, tank parts and chemicals used to make chemical weapons, the official said.
The director of the Iraqi government front company known as the Al Bashair Trading Co. fled to Syria, where he is in charge of monitoring arms holdings and funding Iraqi insurgent activities, the official said.
Also, an Arabic-language report obtained by U.S. intelligence disclosed the extent of Russian armaments. The 26-page report was written by Abdul Tawab Mullah al Huwaysh, Saddam's minister of military industrialization, who was captured by U.S. forces May 2, 2003.

continued...

378 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:06:00pm

Michelle Malkin's excellent site has some more info - including additional details from Bill Gertz's book - Treachery -

In his must-read book, Gertz reports in greater detail about Russia's extensive business dealings, intelligence-sharing, and weapons sales with the Hussein regime. On p. 56-58, he recounts how Russian GPS jammers sold to Iraq caused trouble for our forces in the early days of the invasion. President Bush privately lashed out at Russian president Vladimir Putin; the administration went public on March 24 2003 with the information. But it didn't deter Russia, which also supplied night-vision goggles, technical support, and Kornet-E missiles to Iraq, among other weapons and goods that endangered American troops. Gertz writes in the book:

The cooperation between Russia and Iraq continued up to the end of the Saddam Hussein regime. "There were literally hundreds of Russian specialists that were going through there trying to shred all evidence [of their involvement] in the days before the war started," said John Shaw [deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security].

379 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:06:07pm
380 Robin Goodfellow  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:06:07pm

continuation...


Russia tied to Iraq's missing arms


By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

[....]

The Russian "spetsnaz" or special-operations forces were under the GRU military intelligence service and organized large commercial truck convoys for the weapons removal, the official said.
Regarding the explosives, the new Iraqi government reported that 194.7 metric tons of HMX, or high-melting-point explosive, and 141.2 metric tons of RDX, or rapid-detonation explosive, and 5.8 metric tons of PETN, or pentaerythritol tetranitrate, were missing.
The material is used in nuclear weapons and also in making military "plastic" high explosive.
Defense officials said the Russians can provide information on what happened to the Iraqi weapons and explosives that were transported out of the country. Officials believe the Russians also can explain what happened to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

381 superninja  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:07:03pm

The French, the Germans and the Russians are willing to align themselves with Saddam while he's under U.N. sanctions. They were willing to sell him materials to make weapons.

I must point out, to compete with the US, they have to build up our enemies, because they can't compete economically. This if a fundimental point.

We have done the same, but building up underdeveloped countries who were threatened by the spread of Communism. It's not equivocal.

These countries are our enemies. They want us to go down, and we should never, ever capitulate to them.

The U.N. is willing to make money off of the Iraqis in their Oil-For-Food scandal, and attempt to hide it by voting against the Bush invasion of Iraq after Sadaam had broken their precious legalism time and time again.

Why do we need the approval of these people? Kerry is not electable unless you want America sold out to its enemies.

382 Ooops  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:09:04pm

#369 independent_with_common_sense

Bush will bring Putin over from the dark side of the force. Just like he did with Libya.

Oh yea, watch the news the next few days. Much more to come.

383 gymnast  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:09:18pm

#369. You are on borrowed time.

384 oh_dude  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:11:14pm

374 BPP

HA HA! Dude is that all you got? Trying to slam Bush on a tactical debate?

And where was Kerry?

1991- The UN and most of the World supported action against Iraq invasion of Kuwait. Kerry's vote? NO.

2003- Action to remove Hussien. Kerry's vote? YES.
Funding for the troops. Kerry's vote? NO.

Global Test? WTF?

Kerry is an armchair QB at best. Just like you.

385 Doss  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:11:31pm

Bush and Co. have know all about weapons being in Syria, the Russians being neo-Soviets, and more. I think that we were so thin in human intelligence that they wanted to avoid a big brouhaha till we could develop a proper human intel network. Not to mention, there's only so much you can do at once, and cleaning Afghanistan and then booting Saddam were first on the plate. Bush can't take on all the bastards at once. Syria---your turn is coming, just like Iran's. And Russia---Bush has been on to you scumbags from the get-go. That's why he said that "Pooty-Poot" shit and talked about being able to see Putin's good nature in his eyes or whatever he said. He was bullshitting you neo-Soviets so that you wouldn't realize just what an extensive network he's run through your country.

386 riverofpearls  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:11:51pm

357 Sapper 10/27/2004 09:56PM PST
#4

If this is our October Surprise, we should have released it weeks ago. You know MSM will hem and haw long enough to give Kerry a chance. You know, doing their "fact-checking" like they did with the swiftboats stuff.

(Funny how negative Bush stories don't require so much fact-checking.)

They said the same thing about the Berger story. In fact they reported on the "motives" of the story's release. They NEVER reported on the story. Just how it was a Republican plot to discredit the dems before the convention. And they said they needed "more" time to check the "FACTS". I hate the media. Liars and you know.

387 schmilt  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:12:18pm

#382
You are right. It was just broadcast and is being talked about on 85KOA here in Denver. (85,000 Watts, 37 States)

Bye Bye Kerry......

388 newsjunkie_ky  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:12:38pm

362 Lightning_Man

Loved it!

kerry said he would rather win the White House than the Sox win the WS! Hope MS and Sox fans everywhere will hold this against that idiot.

389 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:14:15pm

Is it just me.... or have the trolls gone from... "No WMD" to.... sheesh that ole dummy Bush didn't take them seriously enough... he should have went into that war we didn't want... with more people to secure those WMD's we don't believe in... do they listen to what they say?????? Heh...

390 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:15:49pm
391 RKA  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:16:53pm

This whole fiasco demonstrates that Kerry couldn't be trusted with the "football" for even a minute. In the last two days, he's managed (with a little help) to create an international incident - probably the reason we never have heard the real story about WMD - Bush values international stability over his own reputation. Kerry - the Global Test man - just flunked out.

392 riverofpearls  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:19:05pm

OT Just me venting.

I hope they either let Scott Peterson out and give him some sort of a prize or they hang him. Either way I don't care just get him and that dumb ass Abrams and all these talking lawyers off my TV.

393 superninja  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:19:18pm

#369

Putin knows what Bush is about, and I would have it no other way.

He knows our ground resources are taxed, but Bush will act against Russia if they step out of line.

We still have a Navy that can devistate a State that acts against the US.

No - Russia will bide its time and hope that the underground terrorist war decimates the American desire to bring democracy to the world. They're hoping for another Vietnam.

And Putin is probably hoping that Kerry is elected.

394 truthsword  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:19:38pm

Kerry was really already losing, even with the cheating.... so did he really have anything to lose by doing this? I mean this is the moment most of his adult life has been about.... had to take the shot...

395 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:19:40pm

This just finally proves it:

Kerry is the Wrong person at the Wrong place at the Wrong time!

396 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:19:46pm
397 andthenblammo!  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:20:34pm

#379 Rayra:

yep. From President of the most powerful Nation on Earth to emcee of a second rate dog show in one generation.

Oh, man. Now that you've cut them off, what are you going to do with them????

398 HULUGU  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:22:34pm

dirka dirka muhammid jihad comrade spasiba allah da dirka dirka nyet kfur dirka dirka das vedanya mir allahu spetznet

399 Beagle  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:23:06pm
what better way to weaken America than to encourage Bush?

Vote for Kerry. He has a proven track record at weakening America.

400 BPP  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:24:01pm

384 oh_dude

Kerry is an armchair QB at best. Just like you.

I notice your entire post is dedicated to attacking Kerry rather than actually refuting what I said. It's the classic response of someone who has no arguments.

I may be an armchair QB, but in that case we all are. Meanwhile you have a real commander saying things like this:

The commander of the first unit into the area told CBS he did not search it for explosives or secure it from looters. "We were still in a fight," he said. "our focus was killing bad guys." He added he would have needed four times more troops to search and secure all the ammo dumps he came across.

Is he an armchair QB too?

401 Nancy  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:24:15pm

Now the amount is in question, that even IAEA documents may show that MOST was removed LONG before the air strikes began.

Oct. 27, 2004 — Iraqi officials may be overstating the amount of explosives reported to have disappeared from a weapons depot, documents obtained by ABC News show.But International Atomic Energy Agency documents obtained by ABC News and first reported on "World News Tonight with Peter Jennings" indicate the amount of missing explosives may be substantially less than the Iraqis reported.

The information on which the Iraqi Science Ministry based an Oct. 10 memo in which it reported that 377 tons of RDX explosives were missing — presumably stolen due to a lack of security — was based on "declaration" from July 15, 2002. At that time, the Iraqis said there were 141 tons of RDX explosives at the facility.

But the confidential IAEA documents obtained by ABC News show that on Jan. 14, 2003, the agency's inspectors recorded that just over 3 tons of RDX was stored at the facility — a considerable discrepancy from what the Iraqis reported.

The IAEA documents could mean that 138 tons of explosives were removed from the facility long before the start of the United States launched "Operation Iraqi Freedom" in March 2003.

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

402 applesweet  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:27:13pm

You should go over to InDcJournal.com and read what Bill has posted. Then read the comments. He's got a pretty good grasp on what is going on.

403 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:27:37pm

BPP (#374),

Any way you look at this, Bush comes off terribly.

No, ya know who comes off looking bad?

The IAEA who thought taping seals to doors was a good way to keep Saddam and the terrorists from stealing hundreds of tons of explosives.

How bout the Russians? They don't look too good do they? Having to rush to Baghdad to destroy the evidence of their duplicity.

And our "allies" who were too pussified to fight. Too bad they couldn't have lent a hand protecting munitions dumps. There were only 8,800 of them.

But nah they'd rather sit home and complain about Bush being so evil and stupid that's a lot easier that actually doing anything to help.

404 riverofpearls  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:27:39pm

This election has gone on too long. I am so tired of these people on my TV.

Worst commentators on TV
1. Chris Matthews

2. That ugly Oberman guy

3. That dumb blonde msnbc hired back in the summer to compete with those smart blondes on FOX. She only lasted a week.

4. Imus you know the guy who says I can't stand Kerry but I 'm voting for him anyway. And all those dumb ass people he talks to every weekday morning.

There's more but why go on. I know I know I could just turn them off but I really can't I have to watch them you understand to know what lie they are spouting today so I can go find the TRUTH and try to get it out to everyone. They will still need watching though after President Bush is reelected so why don't we divide that chore up amongst us. It is tedious duty.

405 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:29:11pm

#369

Putin is a pragmatist. First, most of those weapons in Iraq came from Russia. Iraq and Russia are historically client states of Russia. So there was an existing relationship.

However, Putin walks a very fine line, because he does want a cooperative constructive relationship with the US.

I don't see Russia as an enemy but rather a potential partner in the War on Terror. There is no hope for France and Germany - put them on the enemy list. But we have a lot of common interests with Russia. Bush has refused to condemn Putin for anything related to Chechnya. And since the school attack, Putin and Russian opinion have undergone a sea change. I think they are on our side now.

I also think we will need Russian help with Iran, Syria, and North Korea. I feel certain that there has been a lot going on behind the scenes, Bush working with Putin on this.

Finally Putin doesn't nor did he ever give two shits for Marxist ideology. He's all about power, and that's OK. He is no ideologue.

406 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:29:18pm

#374 BPP

That's what people are realizing. If Bush were truly serious about keeping weapons out of the hands of terrorists, he would have erred on the side of too many troops, not too few. If he had been serious about turning Iraq into a model Middle Eastern state, he wouldn't have allowed Rumsfeld to blow off the Future of Iraq project at the State Department, which anticipated many of the problems we're facing. And on and on down the list of blunders, miscalculations and willful blindness.

This, like Sullivan's rant, is just complete bullshit spread about by people who either don't know what they are talking about - or are just willing to say anything to shoot an arrow into the back of the Administration.

The State Department was the group that had the ultimate leadership and decision making principles in Iraq once the major conflict ended. That was the case that Powell presented - no military governor - a kinder, gentler occupation.

More troops wouldn't have made any difference when there was no army to fight. Sure, when the Iraqi's wanted to try to stand in the line of battle in 1991, 500K troops were needed, but when the Iraqi army in 2003 was just running for home (or their bases to fight an insurgency in the cases of the Baathists / Fayadeen / Foreign Terrorists) - massive troops weren't needed.

As for being able to police and control the arms dumps - that's also BS. The location of the dumps were known. Most of the incriminating materials were already scattered / dispersed by Saddam's government to hide them from inspectors - or to get out to cache's in the middle of the western desert or Syria for when the US would leave - as they all thought would happen once casualties increased, no easy evidence of WMD found, and global / US opinion would force a withdrawal like in Somalia.

Iraq also had spent BILLIONS of Oil for Food funds with France, Germany, Russia, and China for arms. They manufactured their own small arms and ammo to the point that just about every citizen had an aresenal of weaponry not to mention over 800,000 tons of explosives - many in huge cache's of artillery and tank shells.

If ordered to scatter and fight a guerilla campaign, hundreds of Iraqi officers gathered up a few pickups full of 155mm rounds for their local cache to use as roadside bombs.

But the real good stuff - that was either buried in the sand (like the MiG23's and MiG25's) or moved to Syria for "safekeeping".

When some places were looted - like the ministry buildings - there were plenty of troops around watching - they just never got orders from the civilians in charge of the peace to shoot them on site.

The days of massed deployments of 500K of troops are passed. They aren't needed. What still is needed is the balls to let the soldiers do the job until it's done - and that any sign of being nice / gentle will be exploited by the enemy.

More will was needed. Not more troops.

(Besides, if 500K or 600K were deployed, with the same orders, you, and Sully, would be bitching about how many troops are there - and that the drain is too much and it's time to bring them home. It would just be nice for Sully to be intellectually honest and admit that his ONE issue is the only reason he is voting against Bush instead of the lameass endorsement he made for Kerry. If he wants ABB, then say it's an ABB vote.)

407 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:30:21pm

OK getting to this thread late,

I assume that Iraq was in constant satalite survailence well before the war...

I assume that Dept. of Defence could give a yea-or-nay on this whole issue with "certianty"

408 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:30:53pm
409 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:31:49pm
410 oh_dude  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:32:13pm

400 BPP

I'd love to refute, but the problemis that you haven't said anything.

You are a classic cut and paste artist. (Michael Moore is tht you?). Why don't you try stating something that you've created instead of trying to get me to waste my time refuting comments from an already biased media?

Come on Man, I'm calling you out! Give me YOUR take and stop acting like a parrot. Show me one post where I've cut and pasted...

And if you haven't noticed, I'm using a classic LLL technique... Ignore what the other person is saying and just go after what their guy is doing wrong.

411 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:35:03pm

#403 Geepers

The number of muntion dumps, 8,800, and what they contained was enough to go into Iraq without the WMD in my mind.


And to those who shall remain nameless who have made fun of the way President Bush talks, go watch Stolen Honor and listen to your guy with his fake, snobbish, thinks-it-makes-him-sound-important accent.
What a fake he was then-----and even worse now.

412 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:36:58pm

#404 riverofpearls

I totally agree! Except that I can't watch the ditzy blonde on MSNBC at all. I can only take Imus in very little dribs and drabs, then have to click back to Fox. Imus seems to be on a multiyear dry drunk.

Olberman is an officious prick - can't stand him. He's not even entertaining.

But Chris Matthews - I just have to watch, even though he drives me crazy! Tonight, for example, he kept asking Secretary Don Evans what the $85 billion spent on Iraq could have done for the people of Ohio, and why the Iraqis couldn't pay for reconstruction themselves (he seems to have forgotten the results of the Treaty of Versailles and the Marshall Plan).

And did you know that his brother is a Republican mayor of a small Pa. town? What happened to Chris? Was he abused by a Republican teacher or something?

413 applesweet  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:37:09pm

BPP #400

Is there something wrong with you? That you would deliberately compare someone sitting at a computer posting to someone who is on active duty in a war zone?

That officer was following his orders, and they were NOT to search or sieze that cache. What a canard!

It's one thing for us to sit here, analyze and critize at our convenience. Then to compare someone in a fire fight that is going at blinding speed to make the same kinds analysis and decisions we've made in a liesurely manner.

Man, does everyone live in la la land?

414 Lightning_Man  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:38:12pm

#400 BPP

So they didn't look for explosives. Why would they? They were too busy trying to take the country.

The fact of the matter is, like a lot of the things the left has tried, this story only matters to people who already believe as you do. Do you really think this would shake the voting intention of even a casual Bush supporter such as my wife?

The TANG story is the same thing. Bush got special treatment? If he did, that's nothing unusual for the time, and if he didn't, ho hum. Bush didn't do all his flying time? As long as he didn't actively conspire with the enemy, who cares? (We don't know anyone running for president who actively conspired with the enemy, do we?)

This was a last minute dirty trick, a pretty lame one at that, and it has had the legs cut out from under it. Red Sox win, Kerry loses.

415 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:38:24pm

OK, folks, something weird is going on in NYC right now.... helicopters have been circling over Lower Manhattan for the last 10 minutes, with SEARCHLIGHTS. Sweeping the streets.

Wotthehell?

416 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:40:12pm
417 a.k.a. Will  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:40:14pm

Andrew Sullivan already has his post for today, Thursday, up on his site. He makes no mention of these new revelations, but he does have very a useful paragraph:

AL QA QAA'S IMPORTANCE: The reason the story of missing munitions at al Qa Qaa is an important one is not that, in and of itself, it's a huge deal. As Bill Kristol points out in one of the weakest defenses of the administration yet, the NYT story "didn't put it into context how important 380 tons are when there are tens of thousands of explosives in the country." Yes, that's right. Compared to all the other munitions sites that were looted during and after the invasion, al Qa Qaa is not that devastating. But what about all the other sites? What about the fact that a war begun as a means to restrain Saddam's weaponry actually helped disperse it? That's the real issue. And as the facts emerge, I've become convinced of one astounding thing: the Bush administration didn't care very much about the dangers from Saddam's alleged WMDs, or conventional munitions. Safeguarding those sites, keeping those weapons out of the hands of terrorists, was not a major priority. Here's a section from the AP story on al Qa Qaa:


I guess he was just out-of-the-loop on the new information and will have to assess it tomorrow.

418 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:41:07pm
419 JohnSteele  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:41:28pm

412 antiquebob

Around my house we like to envision a TV program with Chris Matthews, Cramer (from Kudlow and Cramer) and John MacLoughlin at the same time. We then sit back and watch them shouting at each other until either Matthews' or Cramer's head explode right there on camera.

We are easily amused at my house :-)

420 ivymike  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:41:33pm

This is from the NYT wire feed. Don't know if it's on the website yet:

(This article is part of TIMES EXPRESS. It is a condensed version of a story that will appear in tomorrow’s New York Times.)

By JAMES GLANZ and JIM DWYER


New York Times News Service


BAGHDAD, Iraq — Looters stormed the weapons site at Al Qaqaa in the days after American troops swept through the area in early April 2003 on their way to Baghdad, gutting office buildings, carrying off munitions and even dismantling heavy machinery, three Iraqi witnesses and a regional security chief said Wednesday.
The Iraqis described an orgy of theft so extensive that enterprising residents rented their trucks to looters. But some looting was clearly indiscriminate, with people grabbing anything they could find and later heaving unwanted items off the trucks.
Two witnesses were employees of Al Qaqaa — one a chemical engineer and the other a mechanic — and the third was a former employee, a chemist, who had come back to retrieve his records, determined to keep them out of American hands. The mechanic, Ahmed Saleh Mezher, said employees asked the Americans to protect the site but were told this was not the soldiers’ responsibility.
one a chemical engineer and the other a mechanic — and the third was a former employee, a chemist, who had come back to retrieve his records, determined to keep them out of American hands.

Uhhh ... just wondering. What do you suppose a ``chemist'' and a ``chemical engineer'' were doing at an ammo dump. I've read the whole long vsn of the story. Don't bother looking for it there.

421 mailmars  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:41:34pm

The only thing that I can say is, this shit better be true or Bush is done.....

Mark

422 briansmommy  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:41:38pm

#238

Outstanding post. I think GW and Putin spoke before this broke.

423 gromster  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:42:00pm

#150 Master Shake

OT / I just love that screen name, "Master Shake."

ATHF is one of my favorite shows, and Master Shake is my favorite character on the show. I also dig the Moonites.

424 andthenblammo!  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:43:32pm

#415 Lady of Shalott:

Hopefully just a false alarm, but if you see Michael Moore clinging to the Empire State Building while the Air Force vectors in on him, get away from the windows.

425 Lightning_Man  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:44:12pm

#420

Three Iraqi witnesses? Why didn't they get some Viet Cong to testify to it as well? /sarcasm out.

What's the phrase? Useful idiots.

426 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:44:30pm

#421 Mark

Either you believe him NOW, or you're one of THEM!

427 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:44:35pm

#415 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)

helicopters have been circling over Lower Manhattan for the last 10 minutes, with SEARCHLIGHTS. Sweeping the streets.

How many helicopters?
Anything on the local news?

428 zelda  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:44:48pm

#404 I am with you. I wrote ABC News tonight after hearing a radio update. The reporter used the phrase 'damage control' in relation to the President responding to this NYT/CBS junk. I told them they were irrelevant among other things. It is so blatant, the bias. I used to be able to watch MSM up to a few weeks ago but now it does nothing but make me literally yell at the TV. Oh, and I did include in my email to the news department, I live in the United States of America, not the United Nations of America. This one comes down to sovereignty.

429 HULUGU  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:45:58pm

KERRY--'MR. President--why don't you respond to this huge scandal?'----------------Pres Bush--ROPE-A-DOPE HOMEY__ROPE-A-DOPE--

430 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:46:18pm

#400 BPP

So, what does that prove? That somehow, without being seen by drones and recon, or the people from the 101st scouting the area as a rally point for the 2Bde / 101st didn't see 38-40 semis with about 200 people working 7x24 (and it would have taken more than 4 days between when the 3ID and 101st) to load and escape with 380 tons of materials?

The materials were gone before the war started. The materials were on the "wanted list" - they were moved as Gertz uncovered in his research for the article / book.

Then there is this post from Powerline - Duplicate UN inspection seals permitted Iraqi's to relocate prohibited materials.

BTW - one last rant on the "not enough troops" canard - the 150K coalition troops, invading Iraq on a single axis, against an enemy armed forces 3 to 4 times their size, liberated Iraq in about 3 weeks. In over 18 months of combat operations, mainly under guerilla / terror attacks, only about 1100 coalition members were killed. That is unprecedented in military history. More troops wouldn't have captured Iraq faster. More troops wouldn't have made a difference in the casualties after May 2003 (except provide more targets) unless their orders were to be more aggressive on the borders and against any and all signs of looting and insurgency. With those orders, the 125K to 150K coalition troops would have likely been sufficient.

Ever hear of economy of force?

Or consider the logistical headache supporting 500K? Why invite that headache just to placate armchair generals who will still Monday AM QB.

431 Catttt  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:47:31pm

OT
Opinion Journal reports a Dick Holbrooke quote from the Boston Globe (from a speech in Florida).

"I'm not here to criticize President Bush," Holbrooke, a former United Nations ambassador, told hundreds of members of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, or AIPAC, a major pro-Israel lobbying group, gathered for their annual summit. "His support for Israel is, in my mind, unquestionable."

The crowd--to Holbrooke's chagrin--offered rousing applause. That was not," he said wryly, "supposed to be an applause line."

432 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:47:49pm
433 superninja  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:48:32pm

Russia isn't going to be brought back from the Dark Side, folks. Putin is another Stalin in the making.

To paraphrase a wise man - all it takes for evil to persist is for good men to do nothing.

The problem with all totalitarian regimes is that if you remove their evil leaders, the people tend to be apathetic - and for good reason. The Russians seem to me, apathetic. They expect to be ruled. By a good man, great. But when they don't - oh well...they're used to it. It's the same thing in Iraq.

These people have to be lead to the beginnings of a democracy. Just as Germany and Japan had to be lead after WWII.

Putin is not a leader; he's a burgeoning tyrant.

Kerry, again, is not fit for the duty of President. This morality is just too challenging for him.

Bush, on the other hand, will keep Putin in check. But Putin is still going to pursue his own anti-US interests. The Cold War never ended.

434 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:49:10pm

#419 John Steele

That would be very entertaining. Throw in Lawrence O'Donnell for some really shrill yelling.

Anne Coulter and/or Laura Ingraham would add some intensity and sarcasm.

How about the yelling match between Chris Matthews and Zell Miller? Now that was riveting tv. I wanted to see the actual duel! Ratings through the roof. My money on Zell.

435 Momma V  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:49:12pm

Andrew Sullivan's premise is wrong and therefore everything he says with respect to it is flawed. It's also very illuminating. It shows the left's complete misunderstanding of what the war on terror is about. This war wasn't started as a means to restrain Saddam's weaponry. It was to remove Saddam (a terrorist himself, a supporter of terrorists and a harborer of terrorists) from power, which it did.

Mission Accomplished.

436 riverofpearls  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:50:23pm

412 antiquebob 10/27/2004 10:36PM PST

I know Matthews brother is a democrat something or other. And I am not kidding I am burnt out on all these idiots on TV. I never heard so many half truths and lies in all my life. There must be something really BIG going to happen in the next 4 years for the devil to cause so many lies to be told.. When the president is reelected I might get drunk. Kinda like Noah after the FLOOD. Noah only had a little water, a few storms, some animals and his family in tight quarters. This has been a flood of lies. This whole thing has been a life altering experience for me. I have heard and seen too much. Just joking about Noah. But you knew that. Right? Oh yeah, to the question "What happened to Chris?" Too much Jimmy Carter I guess. Yeah Carter would do that to a man.

437 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:51:15pm

ivymike (#420),

From your article:

The Iraqis described an orgy of theft so extensive that enterprising residents rented their trucks to looters.

Um, is anyone actually expected to believe that?

Let's rent our truck to looters engaged in an orgy of theft .

"Make sure to fill the tank, before you bring it back, ok"

438 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:51:16pm

#433 Superninja

The Cold War never ended.

The Cold War did end. It was WWIII. This is WWIV - and a new effort from Putin to return Russia to it's former "glory" and "position" in the world.

It would be smart of Putin to rethink things and stop trying to be European and anti-US and look at his real enemy in the Far East.

439 oldengr  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:51:40pm

ABC is reporting that the amount of explosives missing from the Al-Qaqaa installation may be a lot less that initially indicated .. .


[Link: www.abcnews.go.com...]

440 zelda  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:52:22pm

#411 glwing
"What a fake he was then-----and even worse now"--soooo right. Let's not forget, "Can I get me a huntin' license here?"

441 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:52:55pm
442 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:54:25pm

I always figured that WWIV would be fought with sticks and stones...


Well, box cutters aren't much of a step up...

443 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:55:43pm

#412

Chris Matthews brother was a delegate to the Republican Convention. He's a small town mayor in Pa. Chris had him on during the Convention.

Careful about the Noah analogy - didn't he sleep with his daughters or something when he got drunk after the Flood?

And finally, I agree, the Father of Lies has to be behind this. There is no other logical explanation.

444 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:56:00pm
The Iraqis described an orgy of theft so extensive that enterprising residents rented their trucks to looters.


Un-huh. And these trucks just road down the streets passing US army at every turn and waved with their truck loads of weapons.

Were these, perchance, the same white pickup trucks that attacked tanks with a machine gun? Smart guys like that, no doubt, could pull this off with the proper smile and a wave.

/sarc off

445 Nancy  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:56:29pm

400 BPP --

You didn't provide a link for the CBS article which would have given the name of the commander?

This is the commander who was there first.

According to Perkins, his 2nd Brigade arrived in the area near the Al-Qaqaa installation on April 3, 2003, part of the first large coalition combat force to come so close to Baghdad.

[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

Why would they be looking for weapons that they could see were not there? If the buildings were not sealed and they were missing, they were not going to be elsewhere at the facility.

There were ALSO Iraqis there shooting at them when they arrived.

446 mailmars  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:56:31pm

#426 balisong

Either you believe him NOW, or you're one of THEM!

Well I have not heard GW say this as direct point and I am always very nervous with "this is toooo good to be true" type of story. This story really makes me nervous. I do think I saw the start of a close on a setup today with GW saying that sKerry leeped to a conclusion without KNOWing the facts, that was a hint. I still think this needs to settle a bit and like I said, if story is not rock solid then GW is done.

447 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:58:44pm

Riverofpearls - I meant to say, #436, not 412

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Noah slept with his daughters whiloe drunk after the Flood.

448 zelda  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:58:59pm

#434 antiquebob Thanks, I would love to see that match-up again. Zell is my hero and a patriot, thus my screen name.

449 riverofpearls  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 8:59:48pm

424 andthenblammo! 10/27/2004 10:43PM PST
#415 Lady of Shalott:

Hopefully just a false alarm, but if you see Michael Moore clinging to the Empire State Building while the Air Force vectors in on him, get away from the windows.

LOL

433 superninja 10/27/2004 10:48PM PST
Russia isn't going to be brought back from the Dark Side, folks. Putin is another Stalin in the making.

I thought so too but I also thought we NEED him. Look guys this is just a continuation of WWII. It will be USA, Great Britian, Russia. France, Germany. are right back to where they were and the mideast is where it was then. In other words same old same old.

450 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:02:35pm
451 riverofpearls  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:02:49pm

447 antiquebob 10/27/2004 10:58PM PST
Riverofpearls - I meant to say, #436, not 412

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Noah slept with his daughters whiloe drunk after the Flood.

Noah did not sleep with his daughters. That was Lot Abraham's nephew who fled Sodom and Gomorah after the fire from heaven. Noah planted a vineyard and got drunk. One of his sons mocked him. Anyway readit it's all in there.

452 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:02:59pm

#446

That's the thing... He just drops hints...

He won't (can't) tell US what's REALLY going on.
That leaves us (me) tinfoil types to come up with EVERY OBTUSE explanation to why he would phrase it that way...

I totally believe that Bush's Good-ole'-boy persona is a mask he puts on when it's expedient. He has been well versed in how to phrase things... Sometimes...

453 gymnast  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:03:11pm

#433, superninja. If you knew your history, you would know the Putin would not be a pimple on Stalins ass when it comes to being a tyrant. All countries persue their interests, just as we do. We differ from all of them however in our ability to project power, both econic and military, to achieve our interests to a greater extent than any nation in the history of the world. Kerry would squander that advantage and it is possible that once lost, it could never be regained.

454 gromster  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:03:25pm

#189 independent_with_common_sense

A war time commander in chief should

"Should" is the key word there - it is your opinion. In my opinion, intelligence cannot be determined by the quality of someone's speaking ability, nor should it be used to determine the President's competence / intelligence.

I'm sure there have been instances of mute people who have stellar IQs.

I've read transcripts of some of Kerry's speeches, and he's not exactly a genius with words himself. He makes the occasional screw-up.

Here's but one example*:

"And our kids, American young forces, are being shot at from weapons stolen from the ammo dumps... "

The phrase "American young forces" is nonsensical.

It would've made slightly more sense had he said,"Young American forces..." or, "Our forces, who are young...."

* from Rush's site,
[Link: www.rushlimbaugh.com...]

455 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:03:45pm

The Kerry campaign might want to consider pulling the al Caca missing weapons ad. Just a suggestion.

He should probably go back to talking about things he knows something about, like after school programs, gay marriage, and partial birth abortions. But he is getting very bad advice from Bob Shrum. They are so fixated on the idea that a Democrat can't win if national security is the issue (and they are right). Hence the whole "he defended this country as a young man" Nam shit, etc.

They just keep falling into the traps.

456 applesweet  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:03:55pm

Does Sullivan have any idea how ridiculous the following statement is? Saddam was keeping those munitions out of the hands of terrorists. Just what the hell does he think Saddam is?

Safeguarding those sites, keeping those weapons out of the hands of terrorists, was not a major priority. H

I swear, more and more of the opposition are going insane!

457 BPP  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:03:57pm

403 Geepers

EVERYONE comes off looking bad except Bush? Bush really must be some kind of superhero to be that infallible!

406 Athos

You're an intelligent guy - why are being so lame here?

The State Department was the group that had the ultimate leadership and decision making principles in Iraq once the major conflict ended. That was the case that Powell presented - no military governor - a kinder, gentler occupation.

You can't really believe that. They had decision making power over the CPA and the civil administation, not the troops. Maybe there wasn't a military governor, but who cares? Everyone knows that the shots were being called by the Pentagon.

More troops wouldn't have made any difference when there was no army to fight. Sure, when the Iraqi's wanted to try to stand in the line of battle in 1991, 500K troops were needed, but when the Iraqi army in 2003 was just running for home (or their bases to fight an insurgency in the cases of the Baathists / Fayadeen / Foreign Terrorists) - massive troops weren't needed.

Wrong again. This just shows how much you've been in the conservative media echo chamber. Let me fill you in about what they're saying outside. The issue with troop levels was NEVER how many troops were needed to defeat the Iraqi army. It was ALWAYS about how many were needed to secure the peace. To establish order. The fact is we went in with a light footprint because the Pentagon civilian leadership and the OVP were convinced that we would be greeted warmly and that talk of armed resistance was overblown. When that proved to be incorrect, we failed to shift tactics. This what none other than Paul Bremer himself said, just the other day.

The number of people who have said troop levels were too low is just too large to dismiss so readily.

458 Ooops  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:04:36pm

#420 ivymike

This is a joke ... right? The NYT will report that a looter the NYT interviewed claims the US did not guard the Al Qaqaa compound from looting.

The NYT now uses looters/thieves as witnesses. Tooo funny

Two witnesses were employees of Al Qaqaa — one a chemical engineer and the other a mechanic — and the third was a former employee, a chemist, who had come back to retrieve his records , determined to keep them out of American hands.
459 SisterLeoMarie  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:06:25pm

Chow Darlings...........
So weary over the WMDS, Chrissy Matthews said tonight
that the "unintelligent" vote would be those who still refuse
to believe there was never any WMDS, that the evidence
is indisputable. How Chrissy can proclaim this when the
country of Iraq is the size of California. Until someone
other than the UN goes over the place inch by inch with
even cheap metal detectors, then maybe I will be satisfied.

And while we are at it, Saddamm had a very long time,
years in fact, to hide them, or even get them into other
countries before we went in. Remember all the "resolutions."
Why do people ignore the current UN
"Oil For Food" scandal? Millions of dollars were scammed
by UN countries, can you say France and Koffi's own son?

Why would anyone take the word of the UN? Now Kerry
is up in arms about the "missing" explosives in Iraq. The very day after the story broke in the NYTimes Kerry and the DNC released a new AD on the very same subject.

Kind of like when the Bush National Guard story
"broke" on Sixty Minutes. The DNC had a new
Ad ready to go but had to cancel it when the memos
were proved fake the next day.

Finally, Kerry wants it both ways. He calls Bush a
liar about why we went into Iraq, cause there weren't
any WMDs. Now he says we are all in danger because
the missing weapons had the capability to produce
WMDS's. So which is it? The answer is, whatever
twisted logic Kerry can use to win this election.

460 JAB  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:06:32pm

I was thinking . . . over the past several decades Syria has become one giant ammo dump. I bet there are more conventional explosives in Syria than anywhere else in the world. It's a wonder they haven't banned smoking.

461 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:07:16pm

#451 riverofpearls

Ok, it was Lot who slept with his daughters while drunk.

Was Noah naked, or was that Lot too? I thought there was some scandal with Noah, but have not read Genesis for a while.

462 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:07:47pm

Satellite imagery of Al Qa Qaa

I'm sure we could have spared a couple of guys to stop the looting.

463 riverofpearls  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:08:53pm

#452 balisong 10/27/2004 11:02PM PST

I totally believe that Bush's Good-ole'-boy persona is a mask he puts on when it's expedient. He has been well versed in how to phrase things... Sometimes...

It is a mask. Don't tell anyone.

464 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:09:41pm

#460 JAB

Yes, it's too bad that Israel is next door, or a strategically placed nuke would take care of Syria once and for all.

465 superninja  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:11:54pm

#390 song_and_dance_man

It's not nuclear insanity, as you state. It's more like France and their lapdog Germany wanting to appease their Muslim populations.

France wants to position themselves as the broker to the Middle East. They want to challenge America's hold on the ME through the Saudis, so they were working with Saddam (the Saladin of the ME) to normalize relations with Arabs so they can have a stake in the future of the ME. Bush's Iraq invasion ruined that, which is why France (and lapdog Germany - quite a reversal) are so pissed off.

France and Germany are going to have a Muslim majority in the far future, so they were just attempting to save their culture by negotiating with the Saladin of the ME, Saddam. But as always, the French continue to think they're the best negotiators in the world, while missing the subject of importance.

This is too little too late. They will be subjugated by the Arab world, or they will fight.

466 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:12:10pm

Just on FOX.
Arafish's wife has been called in France and is now on her way to his bedside.

467 riverofpearls  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:12:56pm

Was Noah naked, or was that Lot too? I thought there was some scandal with Noah, but have not read Genesis for a while.

Noah planted a vineyard and got drunk from the wine. Noah became naked and one of the sons looked upon him and mocked him. Supposedly that son received a curse from God. The other two sons took a blanket and walked backwards with it and covered their father. Maybe you should take a refresher course. It is better (the Bible) the second time around.

On second thought I think I will stay sober.

468 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:13:00pm

#463 riverofpearls

balisong is a CANADIAN - not how he spells Dept. of Defence, with a "c".

Canada is #3 on our enemies list, to be neutralized along with France and Germany in the second bush Administration.

469 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:13:47pm

The choppers swept Lower Manhattan for about twenty minutes, then flew away, about 2 a.m.

We'll probably never know what that was about. There were two or three of them. Unusual thing is their using their searchlights. Never see that as a rule. Might have been after an escaped criminal, though they seldom use chopper chase in the city (too easy for fugitives to hide).

I do live just 14 blocks from the infamous Tombs...

NEW YORK (Court TV) -- It doesn't matter if you are P. Diddy or a transvestite prostitute, a Wall Street banker or a subway fare beater, if you get arrested anywhere in Manhattan by the New York Police Department, you'll end up in the Tombs.

For more than 160 years, the massive jail on Centre Street in lower Manhattan has housed those awaiting arraignment or trial. Known officially as the Bernard B. Kerik Complex and initially as MDC -- for Manhattan Detention Complex, it is called simply the Tombs by everyone from the mayor to the 20,000 handcuffed men shuffled through its doors every year.

The jail is the largest receiving area in the country. More than 500 corrections officers supervise some 850 inmates. Its long history makes it one of the most storied prisons in the country.

The city fathers ordered The Tombs built in 1835 on swampy land that had once been a lake known as the Collect. The architect, recently returned from a trip to Egypt modeled the jail after a mausoleum he had seen there, giving the granite structure a striking edifice and eventually the nickname, the Tombs.

470 applesweet  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:14:22pm

BPP #457

You have forgotten something. Turkey.
The fact that the pincer strategy that was planned had to be canceled because of the decision Turkey made at the last minute to not let the coalition come over their borders in the initial invasion.
Those troops had to be redeployed which takes time and effort logistically, therefore their footprint was exactly the same as the other have of the pincer. That is the reason
there was an initial delay in having enough troops to win the peace. And, NO ONE predicted or knew, even you, that Saddam's troops would disolve like water.

471 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:14:51pm

#468 I live in Colorado, thank you...

472 gymnast  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:15:07pm

#457,BPP. Have a Troll House Cookie and a glass of milk. You're looking a bit vapid and may need some nourishment for the hike you and your self confessed war criminal buddy are going to take on Tuesday. The march to infamy or obscurity is a bitch, wear good shoes.

473 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:16:00pm

#486 you spelled defence with a "c " too...

474 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:16:04pm
475 Bailador  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:16:21pm

This theory was first mooted over 12 months ago by a high ranking ex communist bloc spy chief...........what took them so long?


Ex-spy fingers Russians on WMD


By Ion Mihai Pacepa

On March 20, Russian PresidentVladimir Putin denounced the U.S.-led "aggression" against Iraq as "unwarranted" and "unjustifiable." Three days later, Pravda said that an anonymous Russian "military expert" was predicting that the United States would fabricate finding Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov immediately started plying the idea abroad, and it has taken hold around the world ever since.
As a former Romanian spy chief who used to take orders from the Soviet KGB, it is perfectly obvious to me that Russia is behind the evanescence of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. After all, Russia helped Saddam get his hands on them in the first place.


Read the full story here:
[Link: www.washtimes.com...]

476 riverofpearls  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:16:27pm

457 BPP 10/27/2004 11:03PM PST
403 Geepers

EVERYONE comes off looking bad except Bush? Bush really must be some kind of superhero to be that infallible!

Now you are beginning to see the TRUTH. President Bush is a kind of super hero. He doesn't walk on water though.

477 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:16:48pm

#467

Oh yeah, it was Ham who saw him naked and was cursed, and his skin was darker and he moved to Africa, I think.

Ok, I'll reread Genesis, you've convinced me.

478 Parker in US  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:17:07pm

238 song_and_dance_man 10/27/2004 09:15PM

Prediction for you, Syria will give up any weapons it has like Libya did.

479 zombie  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:17:13pm

OK folks, I'm using a souped-up search and data retrieval capability (no further questions, please), and came up with a few intriguing tidbits that may or may not be relevant to this story:

The Inland Valley Daily Bulletin (Ontario, CA) had this report on April 4, 2003 Friday:

Troops encounter unknown chemical items

As the military advances closer to Baghdad, signs of Iraqi chemical preparedness are multiplying, although there is still no conclusive evidence Saddam Hussein's regime possesses weapons of mass destruction.

On Friday, troops at a training facility in the western Iraqi desert came across a bottle labeled "tabun" a nerve gas and chemical weapon Iraq is banned from possessing.

Closer to Baghdad, troops at Iraq's largest military industrial complex found nerve agent antidotes, documents describing chemical warfare and a white powder that appeared to be used for explosives.

U.N. weapons inspectors went repeatedly to the vast al QaQaa complex most recently on March 8 but found nothing during spot visits to some of the 1,100 buildings at the site 25 miles south of Baghdad.

Col. John Peabody, engineer brigade commander of the 3rd Infantry Division, said troops found thousands of 2-by-5-inch boxes, each containing three vials of white powder, together with documents written in Arabic that dealt with how to engage in chemical warfare.

The other snippet comes from something called "The Press Association Limited" which looks like a UK news service:

HEADLINE: JUDGE REJECTS 'TRIAL ERROR' COMPENSATION CLAIMS

BYLINE: John Aston, PA News

BODY:
A senior judge today rejected bids for Government compensation made by three applicants whose high-profile convictions were quashed following errors during their trials.

Mr Justice Hooper, sitting in London, rejected test case claims that they were "miscarriage of justice" victims entitled to awards under a non-statutory, ex gratia scheme.

Two of the cases, involving Elizabeth Forsyth and Peter Dimond, related to prosecutions following the collapse of Asil Nadir's Polly Peck business empire, while the third, involving Ali Daghir, was an "arms to Iraq" case.
...
In the third case, Ali Daghir, from Esher, Surrey, owned a company called Euromac, which was asked in 1988 to supply electrical capacitors manufactured by a US company to a company called Al-Qaqaa in Iraq.

He was prosecuted by Customs and Excise for being knowingly concerned in attempting to export capacitors specifically designed for nuclear use.

But the trial judge instructed the jury members that they only had to be satisfied the prohibited items were for general military use.

The businessman was convicted in June 1991 and sentenced to five years' imprisonment on the basis the capacitors were for nuclear use.

Mr Daghir served 465 days before his conviction was quashed on appeal in 1994 on the basis that the judge had misdirected the jury.

So -- was Al-Qaqaa at one point a center for nuclear arms research? And doesn't the first article make it look like Saddam DID have WMDs? I leave it up to the minions to decipher the significance of all this.

Sorry I don't have links to these -- they're in a restricted database that you'd need a password to enter (which I can't give out).

480 zulubaby  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:17:42pm
He has been well versed in how to phrase things... Sometimes...

He's a politician. BFD.

481 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:19:03pm

Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)

We drove pass your place last summer :)
Took the ferry from Conn. and then road L.I. and lower Manhattan.
Didn't stop for a night's stay since we were on a bike pulling a bike trailer.

482 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:21:19pm

#471 balisong

You may well live in Colorado, but you are not from here - you are from Canada, for sure, eh?

483 wateshay  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:22:44pm

#478

That'll only happen if Bush wins. Syria will wait out the election, because they know Kerry will bluff.

484 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:23:39pm

#457 BPP

They had decision making power over the CPA and the civil administation, not the troops. Maybe there wasn't a military governor, but who cares? Everyone knows that the shots were being called by the Pentagon.

Are these the same everyone's that are used when el cubos talk about an majority of people being a number over 30% who happen to think that way?

The Pentagon wasn't calling the shots. They (the troops and their leadership) didn't make the decision to not fire on the looters - that was a political decision directed from the State Department who took over the decisions once the organized forces in Iraq were defeated and the Saddam regime fell. Simple fact.

The issue with troop levels was NEVER how many troops were needed to defeat the Iraqi army. It was ALWAYS about how many were needed to secure the peace. To establish order.

The issue isn't the number of troops to secure the peace - but the orders and ROE that they are under. What WE were slow to pick up on was the fact that much of the Iraqi Army didn't just go home - they went home where they started to fight an insurgency to avoid the US military advantages.

Go read Wretchard on Belmont Club - his posts on War Plan Orange - he details the tactics and plans very well.

Yes, WE underestimated the damage that was done when the US reneged on supporting the revolts against Saddam post Gulf War. In 2003, while pleased that Saddam was out of power, the population didn't know if / how long the US would stay, were confused by the US failure to engage and eliminate the insurgents, and worried that the Baathists would return to power and call for revenge on all who supported the coalition.

As another example on the fallacy of numbers of troops being an issue - 1 brigade was positioned in North Iraq to control an area equal to California north of San Fran / Sacramento. This is Kurd land - and there were very very few issues there. Another example is in the southern area of Basra where a light division of UK troops are based. They established a firmer peace at less cost than the Sunni Triangle with only about 7-10K toops.

It's not the number of troops - it's how they are used and the ROE they are under. That impacts how they do their job more than raw numbers.

The number of people who have said troop levels were too low is just too large to dismiss so readily.

When they are Kerry, breck girl, Wes Clark, the 2 idiot Chairmen of the JCS appointed under Clinton, and a 1001 armchair generals with a vested interest in embarrassing Bush - yes, it's easy to dismiss them.

BTW - you don't think that Bremer ever considers a little CYA now that he is out of the hotseat?

Besides - the ones who created the plan, and fought the plan never said or asked for more troops. (Read what Gen. Franks has to say about the numbers of troops.)

485 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:24:17pm

BPP (#457),

Bush really must be some kind of superhero to be that infallible!

Nonsense. I can criticize the war in Iraq all day long. You just want to condemn him.

See we can criticize Bush for his actions.

It's tough to pick apart Schroeder's military strategy ain't it. Or Chirac's.

What was the EU's plan for securing Saddam's weapons, before or after the war? Did they even have one, beyond endless streams of strongly worded UN resolutions?

486 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:24:37pm

#482 Actually, born in Colorado... left a couple times to live in NM. Texas anf FL, but came back and am growing my family here...

487 SisterLeoMarie  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:24:48pm

A PLan To Win the Peace - Liberal semantics
not as crass as the old Plan to Win the War.
It's Kerry's plan to win the peace, eventually terrorists
will be nothing more than occasional bomb throwing,
beheading nusiances.
It's Bush's plan to go after the terrorists, after all it was
Bin Laden during the Clinton adminstration, after the
first World Trade Bombing, who announced worldwide
that Al-Queda was officially at war with the US. Bin
Laden wasn't putting forth any plan to "win the peace."
More like total annihilation for us.

What the Clinton Admin didn't tell us was that the first
bombing was the work of terrorists, it was a law and
order issue. They drove a van loaded with cyanide into
the garage of the Towers. The explosives rendered
the cyanide useless though some people were killed.
They were planning on killing at least 10,000 that day.

Kerry missed over 75% of all the Senate Intelligence
meetings after 9/11. Why? What was more important?
He was part of that committee. Where was he?

488 Catttt  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:26:13pm

What are the odds Lot and his daughters come up in "conversation" twice in one day? Earlier, I was discussing Lot et familia indelicato with a friend.

The Noah story is controversial. Ham and his son Canaan were cursed and sent off in slavery; there is controversy about the issue of making the descendants slaves; some speculate that depending on how you translate, illicit sex took place. Like I said - controversial.

489 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:27:27pm
490 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:29:38pm

#486

Ok, I apologize for my mistake. I saw that you spelled Defense with a "c", and I'm so keyed up with this election and all, that I smelled a CANADIAN. I can usually sniff them out anywhere. One stood up in my church a few sundays ago, here on a green card, and had the nerve to launch into a "vote for kerry" rant. I thought she was going to start slitting he wrists or something. She needs to GO BACK TO CANADA.

Mea culpa, you ara Coloradan, born and bred.

491 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:30:54pm

#489 Rayra

[Pop-up info on rayra - I'm a Registered Independent, and I voted for Clinton in '92 (what a mistake THAT was)]

In 1976, when in High School here in the States, I went door to door to get the vote out in support of Carter. Talk about a mistake.......sheesh.

It's good to be able to learn from your mistakes.

492 Parker in US  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:31:49pm

483 wateshay 10/27/2004 11:22PM PST

I have no doubt Bush will win!! The majority of American people can't be stupid enough to vote for a lying war criminal with no back bone what so ever!

Bush by a landslide!!

493 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:33:45pm

#490 Cool, but don't get too close,(contagious) I've already not voted for Bush... (absentee)..

494 riverofpearls  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:34:01pm

Yes the Bible is very interesting. I was glad some of you let me vent about the MSM But I need to go to bed everyone good night.

495 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:34:23pm
496 superninja  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:34:57pm

What was left of Saddam's WMD program went to Syria. It was transported there by Saddam loyalists, and we don't have proof of it because we were not there when it moved.

But I've heard this charge before. That whatever WMD program Iraq had was moved to Syria, and their fellow Ba'athists are harboring the weapons and the American media is just not talking about it.

Guess why?

497 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:35:21pm

Cattt:

Hmmmmm - Ham's son Canaan. Canaanites. Ancestors of the Palestinians? Arafat? Anything there?

498 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:35:55pm

#496 OOhhh, OOhhh!! Lemmie guess!!

499 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:36:23pm
500 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:37:05pm

Iraqi Explosives Could Have Been Stolen Before the U.S. Military Took Control - or After


IAEA Inspectors report that they checked the seals placed on the bunker storing stockpiles of HMX and RDX kept at al-Qaqaa on March 9. There have been reports that another IAEA team checked the site on March 15, but that has yet to be confirmed.
501 wateshay  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:38:30pm

#492 Parker in US  10/27/2004 11:31PM PS

I'm confident about a win and optimistic for a landslide, too. I still think the Syrians will hold out until after the election (and after the lawsuits, since they'll want to make sure Kerry doesn't steal it in the courts). On the other hand, as soon as it's clear Bush is in for a second term, I don't give Syria a month. They'll cave in an instant.

502 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:39:21pm
503 zombie  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:39:29pm

Back on the Arafat topic for a moment:
The BBC has a little retrospective on Arafat's "career" and they reveal their astounding villainy by describing Arafat's conduct during his terror phase as "courage":

But he also did more than anyone else to put the Palestinians' cause on the world agenda.

Arab regimes were clearly not prepared to act to help the Palestinians so, led by Mr Arafat, the PLO took up arms themselves, hijacking airliners and committing other acts of violence.

As a military leader, Mr Arafat often led the way into action against the Israelis. When backs were against the wall, when he took on Israel at Karameh in 1968, or Jordan in September 1970 or under siege in Beirut in 1982, Mr Arafat never lacked personal courage.

Oh, oh, oh BBC, to what depths have you fallen?

504 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:40:02pm

Heh...

505 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:42:06pm

#493 balisong

Oh no problem. Colorado is going for bush by 5-8% anyway, so your vote is inconsequential.

good night, riverofpearls. Thanks for the Genesis update.

506 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:43:12pm
507 Athos  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:43:14pm

Nite all

508 superninja  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:43:59pm

#438 Athos

The reason the Cold War never ended is not for my mental health (which would make it WWIII) , but for our enemies.

For them, the Cold War did not end.

509 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:44:18pm

applesweet (#470),

The 4ID (our most well trained equipped outfitted troops) were well prepared to swoop down from the north.

It was over before they ever did get redeployed to get into the fight.

Turkey screwed us big time.

They of all people deserve the brunt of any blame in the military failures. Especially the troubles we're having now with the remnants of Saddam's Army. They would have been forced to fight, trapped between a hammer and anvil and they would have been annihilated.

Instead we had France handing out EU passports to any general who wanted one so they could run to Jordan.

510 Parker in US  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:45:02pm

501 wateshay 10/27/2004 11:38PM PST

I agree in fact I think a bunch of stuff will change kinda like Iran when Regan took over from Carter.

OHHHHHHH WERE SOOOORRY Here is your hostages we were just kidding please don't blow the crap out us.

511 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:45:09pm

# 505 I know... but what if the (losing) ballot proposal to split up the electorate goes through?


I know... still not much change.... In fact, I think we screwed ourselves if it passes, unless some of the "big boys" join and it starts a MOVEMENT!

512 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:45:41pm

#505 antiquebob


Colorado is going for bush by 5-8% anyway, so your vote is inconsequential.

NO vote is inconsequential.

513 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:46:57pm
514 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:48:56pm

#511
balisong
It's highly unlikely that it will pass. It's not in Colorado's best interests, and I think that has become clear to a majority of voters. so we are back to: You vote does not count (in the Electoral College)!

515 wateshay  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:49:39pm

#510 Parker in US  10/27/2004 11:45PM PST

I thought the Iran hostages were due to Bush Sr. making a secret deal with the Iranians. Couldn't have had anything to do with them thinking that maybe Reagan would actually have the guts to do something about them, must have been a conspiracy. /sarcasm

516 Gor  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:49:51pm

I dont know if I should mention this, but my brother who is in the Navy had told me about the link between Russia and Iraq weapons connection over a year ago. So this news doesn't suprise me one bit. Anyways, it is interesting that the Administration waited til now to release such vital info which can explain the missing WMDs. I hope MSM would finally find its conscience and follow up on this story and inform the public that Bush and Co. were right all along. If everything goes right, Kerry would stand no chance Nov 2. Crossing my fingers...

517 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:50:09pm

#514 but it would be in EVERYONE's best interest if ALL the states did it...

518 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:51:06pm
519 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:52:00pm

#512

A vote for Kerry in a state that is won by Bush, thereby giving Bush 100% of the elctoral votes for that state (in the case of balisong, Colorado), is of no consequence so far as the Electoral College is concerned.
In that sense it is inconsequential.

520 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:52:02pm
521 Parker in US  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:56:05pm

515 wateshay 10/27/2004 11:49PM PST

I think the whole hostage deal happened on Carters watch and Iran gave them up in short order when Regan took office because he said he was going to take care of business. Carter made this country look so stupid I think that is why today these nuts all think they can intimidate us.

522 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:56:19pm
523 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:56:37pm

#519

I have a friend who lives in New Mexico who is an AVID Bush supporter, who hasn't voted in 12+ years...
He said that it would be wasted in a "blue state"..

[Link: www.electoral-vote.com...]

I helped convince him to vote too...

I often have heated discussions with him and his friends over politics...
But I believe that every vote is important even if all the electorial college votes for a given state are given to a particular side...

524 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:58:04pm

#519 bob

A vote for Kerry in a state that is won by Bush, thereby giving Bush 100% of the elctoral votes for that state (in the case of balisong, Colorado), is of no consequence so far as the Electoral College is concerned.

I disagree. Votes cancel each other out. If more Bush voters canceled the Kerry votes then the majority of the state wants Bush. (or God forbid--the other way around)
Are you suggesting we go by popular vote only?
Even then, votes cancel one another out.

525 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:58:37pm
526 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:59:09pm

#514 balisong

au contraire, mon amie. The electoral college was brilliantly conceived by the framers of the Constitution, as part of the Great Compromise between large and small states.

If we eliminated the electoral college, then those of you in Colorado and the 40 other states with small populations would be effectively disenfranchised. No candidate would bother to try to get your votes; not enough to matter. Therefore, they would not listen to your concerns. They would let California rape the rest of Colorados' water resources, for example, and you would be helpless to stop it. Logically, if you eliminate the electoral college, you must also do away with the Senate, which is similarly republican (with a small "r"), and congressional districts.

Heck, just go to a proportional party rep. system like in Israel. Now that would really make for a stable system!

Oh, bother, what an interesting subject to bring up at 3 am est. Have got to go to bed, reluctantly. Perhaps we can revive this discussion again.

527 zombie  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 9:59:36pm
#497 antiquebob
Hmmmmm - Ham's son Canaan. Canaanites. Ancestors of the Palestinians? Arafat? Anything there?

Nooooooo, not that again! How many times must a misconception be shattered before it finally goes away?

Always keep this clear in your mind:
Palestinians are Arabs. In fact, technically they are called "Palestinian Arabs." In other words, they are tribal people from the Arabian Peninsula who settled in Palestine. THE ARABS DID NOT ARRIVE IN PALESTINE UNTIL THE 7TH CENTURY AD. Which means that they are NOT descended from, either genetically or culturally, ANY of the ancient tribes mentioned in the Bible/Torah, including the Philistines or the Canaanites or other groups. Most of those groups are thought to have died out long, long ago. Repeat: the Philistines and the Canaanites are NOT the ancient ancestors of modern-day Palestinians.

Furthermore, the people we now identify as Palestinians are for the most part NOT the same Arabs that first settled there in the 7th century. In the intervening centuries, there were many wars, migrations, crusades, and so on, causing population shifts. Most of the modern Palestinians are descended from Arab migrants who arrived there in the 19th and 20th centuries (which is actually when the first Zionist Jews showed up as well.)

The name "Palestinian" only bears a linguistic resemblance to "Philistine" because the Romans, to punish the Jews after their expulsion in 70AD, renamed ther province "Palestina" (Roman spelling) in honor of the Jews' one-time but long-gone enemies the Philistines -- out of sheer spite. 19 centuries later, when the British took control, casting about for a name they decided to resurrect the old Roman spite-name, and called it Palestine. The Arab herdsmen and farmers scattered about the region were dubbed "Palestinian Arabs" by their new British overlords. The local Arabs themselves were probably unaware of their new British name for quite a while.

This "Philistine=Palestinian" misconception has been debunked here several times by me and others. Let's hope it sticks this time!

528 song_and_dance_man[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:00:40pm
529 gromster  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:02:26pm

#389 truthsword

I'm with you, truthsword. I think the trolls and Democrats are mirroring John Kerry is all - that is, they're flip flopping.

530 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:03:04pm

Oh, balisong, please call your friend and tell him that New Mexico is a red state this year! His vote will count, and we have lots of observers watching the crooked Democratic registrars to catch any fraud like in 2000.

531 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:05:08pm

#528 song_and_dance_man

We are definitely living in the curse/blessing of
"May you live in interesting times."

532 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:05:14pm

#526 G'night!!

But if you were still here, I'd say....

What you posted is exactly the "arguements against" in the ballot proposal lit. sent out by the state, but there were "arguements for" in the same flyer, too...

533 applesweet  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:05:21pm

Geepers #509

You're correct about Turkey. They were baited by the EU, and took it hook line and sinker, that if they refused the coalition they would have easy access as a new member of the EU. Well that ball of wax sure melted fast! They cheated themselves.

All this negativity is becoming tiresome. If the media treated Kerry the way they treat Bush, Kerry would have folded months ago. Talk about failing to pass a 'global test'.
I read a letter earlier today that refutes Kerry's friendship with Richard Pershing. Pershing was the grandson of 'Black Jack' Pershing, and at Yale when Kerry was there. Kerry has gone on and on about how he and Richard were best friends, and how he lost his soul mate when Richard was KIA during the Tet offense.
Pershings roommate (for all 4 years in college) has refuted Kerry's grandstanding lies about this. He said Kerry NEVER visited their dorm room, and he was not a particular friend of Pershings. Not only that, Kerry showed up at the Pershing home after Pershing's death and did his anti war song and dance with no respect to the fact the family was in mourning!
I can't find where I read that letter now, and the name of the roomy other than he's an M.D.
If I can find it I'll post it here.

But once again Kerry opens his mouth and a lie flies out of it. Does this man EVER tell the truth?

534 Catttt  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:05:33pm

#497 antiquebob

Hmmmmm - Ham's son Canaan. Canaanites. Ancestors of the Palestinians? Arafat? Anything there?

Well, Cannan was the area from Gaza up to Sidon and east to the mountains, I think. What I've read indicates the Canaanites, pre-Israelite, were a mixed bag of lots of different people, who gradually assimilated. No one really knows, is my quess.

Arafat? He was born in Cairo, Egypt. :)

535 Momma V  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:06:27pm

Showing my ignorance here...


What specifically did Turkey do that caused trouble for our military? And why?

536 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:06:35pm

Zombie:

But aren't the Arabs descended from Abraham's concubine's son, Ishmael?

537 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:10:20pm

#535 Basically refused flyover rights for US troups...

Makes for a tricky "north end" engagement

538 Parker in US  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:10:44pm

535 Momma V 10/28/2004 12:06AM PST

They wouldn't let the 4th ID come in from the North.

539 zombie  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:12:24pm
#536 antiquebob
Zombie:
But aren't the Arabs descended from Abraham's concubine's son, Ishmael?

Well, if you place full credence in the Old Testament geneologies, sure. Which means that you also believe Methuselah lived to 928 years old and so on. Anthropologically and archaeologically speaking, the Arab tribes were around for thousands of years before the scriptures were written. I'm talking about reality here, not religious beliefs.The Arabs had no single ancestor, and certainly not one whose name we know in recorded history.

540 wateshay  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:13:14pm

#521 Parker in US  10/27/2004 11:56PM PST

Agreed 100%

Carter made the whole world feel like it could walk all over us. Reagan fixed that in short order, and Bush continued it (albeit not as effectively). Under Clinton we lost a lot of the respect we had, but it didn't get near Carter levels. Under W, I'd argue that our respect levels (in the "Don't F with us!" sense) are at least as high as we were under Reagan, if not higher. If Kerry does manage to get himself elected, though, we'll see our worldwide respect plummet lower than Carter had us, faster than the French can surrender.

541 Parker in US  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:16:17pm

#540 wateshay 10/28/2004 12:13AM PST

If Kerry does manage to get himself elected, though, we'll see our worldwide respect plummet lower than Carter had us, faster than the French can surrender.

Right on the money!!

542 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:17:01pm

Well, I'm not sure that we know that either way.

Literal or metaphorical, however, the story of Isaac and Ishmael does seem to make some sense of the deep hatred of the Arabs for the Jews. Ishmael was the semi-illegitimate son, and felt inferior, and hat intense jealousy and hatred for Isaac. And the prophecy was that this would continue through generations. The writer of Genesis certainly knew something about it, given that 3000 years later the same feelings exist.

543 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:17:31pm
544 applesweet  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:17:38pm

zombie #527

About the Canaanites. They are NOT the antecedent of the 'palistinians'. Twice now there has been a documentary on PBS about three groups of people who have been identified as coming from ONE original group. The Canaanites, Lebonese and the Phoenicians. They have been connected through DNA. Originally they were from a group of Sea Peoples, who have never been traced to where they originally came from.
So the palistinians are not in any way related to the Canaanites. They can forget that trick!

545 Parker in US  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:19:52pm

Well it doesn't look like we are going to hear about the fish dying tonight.

I think I am going to find a bed, Night All

546 Catttt  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:19:54pm

The Bible as History by Werner Keller

The above book is really good, but old. I'm sure there are newer books, but this one is a really interesting read. Must be why it's still in print.

547 djl4570  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:22:59pm

#27 rogue1 - I sincerely hope you didn't mean that. Those terrorists did not wage war on Russia, they waged war on women and children. Here's the best Beslan reporting I seen anywhere on the net.

The story translated from Russian news sites as it unfolded.
[Link: www.logicandsanity.com...]
Contains some graphic photos, may not be considered work safe.

Beslan Updates part I
[Link: www.logicandsanity.com...]

Beslan Updates part II
[Link: www.logicandsanity.com...]

150 still missing
[Link: www.logicandsanity.com...]

Thirteen year old Kirstina's diary
[Link: www.logicandsanity.com...]

The Russians may be as cupable in the oil for food fraud as France and Germany but they had different reasons for trading with Iraq. Russia desparately needs hard currency and it is a good thing for the rest of the world for them to get some of it. A collapse of the Russian state would have dire consequences for the entire world. France did this because they are French. I haven't thought of any good reason for Germany to get involved unless they were grubbing for money to cushion the reunification of East Germany. In any event I would trust the Russians before I would trust the French. I suspect that Washington has known where that material is all along. We have satellites, aurora, drones and who knows what else spying on Iraq for months before the shooting started. They didn't move 400 tons of material without us knowing about it. Perhaps we told the Russians to move the stuff before it shows up on CNN.

Vladimar Putin is a cold war era KGB officer who managed the KGB bureaucracy. Today he finds himself thrust into a minefield of international politics. Running the KGB during the cold war did not prepare him for running Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. We will not know how well or how poorly he has done his job for years but he is far better than the ultra nationalists who advocated a return to stalinist style communism.

548 antiquebob  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:23:53pm

balisong: good point.
Now I really am signing off. I was earlier but then Zombie got me all worked up about Ishmael and the Promised Land.


Too cloudy in Va to see the eclipse in Virginia. Bummer.

549 Catttt  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:24:08pm

544 applesweet

Interesting, re the DNA evidence linking the Canaanites, Lebonese and the Phoenicians. If you have a link or source of the documentary, can you post it? I'd love to read about it.

Thanks.

550 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:29:26pm

If you look at Iraq you'll see the geographical significance.

Turkey agreed to a cooperative plan, then delayed time and again until it came down to this:

Already 30 to 40 US cargo ships (carrying 4.5 million sq. ft. of cargo including tanks, trucks, and other heavy equipment for the 16,000-strong division) are either waiting off the Turkish coast or scheduled to arrive there soon, officials say. The Bush administration says Turkey must decide Friday whether tens of thousands of US troops can be stationed here.

The muslims crafted a majority to vote it down.

So at the very last minute we had to rework the entire strategy.

Turkey imperils US war strategy

But hey, that's nothin.

Let's all bitch up a storm about how they only secured 99.85% of Saddam munitions. Because that proves that they're all failures. Abject miserable failures.

551 zombie  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:33:11pm
#544 applesweet 
About the Canaanites. They are NOT the antecedent of the 'palistinians'. Twice now there has been a documentary on PBS about three groups of people who have been identified as coming from ONE original group. The Canaanites, Lebonese and the Phoenicians. They have been connected through DNA. Originally they were from a group of Sea Peoples, who have never been traced to where they originally came from.

Yes, thank you applesweet. The current theory is that some groups among the modern-day Lebanese are directly descended from the Phoenicians, who are descended from an unknown group (perhaps Minoan) of "Sea Peoples" -- who may have also been the ancestors of the Canaanites. This is in specific contradistinction to the Arab tribes who invaded millennia afterward. Modern-day Palestinians, Syrians, Iraqis and so on are the descendants of these Arab invaders who first came in between the 7th and 9th centuries and decimated any remaining native groups. The ancient peoples -- Canaanites, Mesopotamians, Hittites, etc. etc., are long gone -- or only have a few sprinklings of genetic descendants here and there. The Arab armies expunged any remaining native peoples much more savagely and thoroughly than what the Europeans did to the Native Americans. It's one of the great genocides of history that never gets told.

552 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:33:52pm
553 zombie  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:39:16pm
#552 ploome hineni 
...has this been posted yet?

Yes, it has. I think folks have been discussing it for hours. From an LGF point of view, it eviscerates the whole Kerry attack strategy against Bush, but the main question is: will the rest of the media pick up the story? Or will they continue to stonewall, and lie through their teeth until election day, ignoring all the facts that contradict their lame and futile "October Surprise"?

554 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:39:29pm

My last post was in reference to Momma V's question:

What specifically did Turkey do that caused trouble for our military? And why?

As for the why part, they were very worried about a protracted war which would drive masses of refugees into Turkey, especially Kurds who aren't well liked there at all.

555 AmericanInSweden  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:42:40pm

It really does not matter what DNA information you use to put a particular race in a particular area at a particular time...it wont change a thing...

Yes - it may prove that these people were here first...but...that does not change a thing...

You have two cultures that believe in a spiritual tie to a particular reason - unless they can play nice together, the idiots are going to fight...

556 jbltk  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:47:26pm

Bush used photoshopped soldiers in latest ad (appropriately titled "Whatever it Takes") in order to boost crowd count.

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

Whatever it takes, right Lizardoids?

557 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:48:07pm

The Washington Times has it on the front page today and there is an AP story at 1:46 AM that I had a link in an earlier post.
One comment in the AP story really caught my eye.

Throughout Iraq, civilians looted military facilities for anything of potential value between April 11 and May 27, when there were not enough U.S. troops on the ground to stop them.
High explosives, such as HMX and RDX, do not explode when exposed to flame, rather burn at a high temperature, which makes them useful for cooking.
558 Momma V  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:49:01pm

#537 balisong
#538 Parker in US

Thanks.

#550 Geepers

Great article. Very succinct. Honestly, I've learned more at LGF in the last month than I have watching networks for last 2 years.

559 applesweet  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:55:10pm

Catttt #549

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

560 topdeck  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:56:44pm

Bush used photoshopped soldiers in latest ad (appropriately titled "Whatever it Takes") in order to boost crowd count.

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

Whatever it takes, right Lizardoids?

Not quite.

Just scroll down a bit in the story to see the original photo:

[Link: www.georgewbush.com...]

All they did was remove the president from the photo.

Nice try though.

561 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:59:04pm
562 zombie  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 10:59:42pm
#555 AmericanInSweden
It really does not matter what DNA information you use to put a particular race in a particular area at a particular time...it wont change a thing...
Yes - it may prove that these people were here first...but...that does not change a thing...
You have two cultures that believe in a spiritual tie to a particular reason - unless they can play nice together, the idiots are going to fight...

Actually, I think it is important in this case. If everyone understood that the Jews are the most ancient existing people from the Holy Land, and that the Arabs are the later invaders and interlopers, then perhaps world opinion wouldn't be so harsh against Israel. After all, it is standard liberal "victimology" practice to always glamorize the native inhabitants of a place over the invaders who displaced them or overran them. The Native Americans are seen as morally superior to the European colonists. The Gauls and Celts are portrayed as being morally better than the Romans. In the same way, ought not the Jews be seen as more deserving of a homeland in Israel than the Arabs, who after all came in much later?

As to your last point -- in truth, the "Holy Land" was never particularly holy to the Arabs. All their real sacred sites are in Arabia (Mecca and Medina). The grandest mosques are and were elsewhere. They're only claiming to have a strong "spiritual tie" to the area because they just can't stand the thought of the Jews being there.

563 jbltk  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:00:45pm

topdeck

Good call. I am the weakest link. Goodbye!

564 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:00:54pm

#560 topdeck

Now, topdeck, you just ruined jbltk's night. He was sooooooooo enjoying that Kos Kool Aid ;)

565 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:02:09pm

topdeck (#560),

9 minutes, not bad.

566 applesweet  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:07:34pm

zombie #551

If you follow that link I posted for Catttt, you'll see how the researchers were able to tie the Canaanites, phoenicians and the modern day Lebonese together through DNA.
So there are modern day remnants. The arabs were never involved in this ethnicity, whatever argument they present.

AmericanInSweden #555

The Israelites conquored the land of Canaan, driving out or killing off the Canaanites. The reason the Romans renamed Israel Palestine was because they knew the Canaanites and the Phoenicians were related. The Phoenicians (Phillistines) were Israel's bitterest enemy.

567 Rose  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:08:14pm

Some have not got it- it is the least intelligent who fill the air with Patrician verbose verbiage- Bush is one smart fellow and a good poker player I hear-He sits back and lets the other idiots play their hand out- master of bluff.
There is much going on, of which we are not informed. Much as the armchair 'Generalisimos' think that they know how to conduct this war, I hate to tell them, Bush and Pentagon are not going to broadcast their daily war schedule in the NYT or CBS.
Bush is a classic example of 'not judging the book by its cover' He may come in a 'plain wrapper' but there be a few surprises in the footnotes.
GO BUSH

568 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:09:05pm

Momma V,

Honestly, I've learned more at LGF in the last month than I have watching networks for last 2 years.

LGF's like that.

The Networks think you're stupid.

We think.

C & F got it pinned down.

569 gromster  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:09:05pm

OT /

Usually we hear stories of people on the left harassing and causing violence to those on the right, but here is one exception:
-------
Florida man [Steven Soper, who is 18 years old] allegedly threatens girlfriend for supporting Kerry:
[Link: www.kansascity.com...]
-------
As much as I dislike liberals and though I am not fond of Kerry, I would never threaten bodily harm on a Kerry supporter. I assume that Mr. Soper's actions can be attributed to immaturity.

To me this is an exception to the rule; it seems to me that most of the harassment and so on comes from the left. They sit around encouraging people to assassinate George W. Bush, for example (on their sites and that book that came out awhile ago).

A couple more links on this story:
[Link: worldnetdaily.com...]
[Link: www.sun-sentinel.com...]

570 balisong  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:10:18pm

#567

master of bluff.

Heh!!

571 zombie  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:11:33pm

#556 jbltk
#560 topdeck
You're both right. There was a photo of Bush with a crowd of troops. For some reason, Bush was cropped out of the photo, and in order to fill in the blank area where he was, the designer pasted in two or three duplicates of other soldiers. So, technically speaking, the photo was "Photoshopped." But in fact there were soldiers behind Bush, which means that the tiled-in soldiers do not add to the "size of the crowd." They were put in as stand-ins for actual soldiers who were obscured by Bush's body, so the photo doesn't look like it has a "hole" in it.

This is just the most desperate grasping at straws on Kos's part. Who the hell cares? A few soldiers were obscured in the original photo, so the designer copied and pasted in a few other soldiers from elsewhere in the photo to make it look "smooth." Yaawwwwn. The original un-altered photo, with Bush in it, looks more impressive anyway. I have no idea why they even bothered to remove him.

Quick, Kossacks -- you're running out of time! Please come up with some more stupid and embarrassingly pathetic attempts at spin! It's fun to watch you twirl.

572 applesweet  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:15:03pm

zombie#562

Actually Medina was orginially Jewish. The hordes of Mo' came in and killed off all the original inhabitants.
Maybe the Jews should raise hell demanding back their real estate.

573 foreign devil  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:16:54pm

Kerry can't blame Bush for not finding WMDs and then complain there were hundreds, nay thousands of pounds of RNX or whatever and other uglies and Bush didn't protect the WMDs. If they weren't found, and were never there, then Bush can't be blamed for losing them.

574 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:19:23pm
575 Frank IBC  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:21:41pm

I'd like to believe that this is the silver bullet that will win the election. But I'm not so sure.

IMO, Bush will get blamed, by the usual suspects, for allowing the weapons to escape to Syria.

And note that the MSM still hasn't picked up on the Washington Times story about Kerry's lies regarding meeting with UNSC members.

576 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:23:31pm
577 Gruen  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:25:20pm

Could someone tell me please how 58,000 postal ballots have gone missing in Broward County in Florida? What the hell is going on there?

578 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:25:42pm

#574 Rayra

And don't forget they kept us waiting around for weeks, assuring us that it would pass and we would be able to enter through Turkey.

How different it would have been had we been able to do that.

579 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:26:05pm

Rayra (#574),

And took it up the wahzoo themselves didn't they?

Kissed off an easy 20 billion.

Lost out on a ton of good will.

And the EU still didn't take them in.

How's that go?

Ha Ha.

580 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:28:45pm

Frank IBC, What the hell are you doing up?

581 zombie  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:31:25pm

Middle-of-the-night OT
In case anybody's interested, here's some unique and hard-to-find info on the new Japanese hostage in Iraq. Interesting stuff:

Japanese hostage in Iraq believed to be civilian traveler
The dreaded name of the notorious Nahoko Takato crops up in the story, but in this case it really appears that the victim really was just a naive tourist who purposely went looking for "travel thrills" by going to Iraq, and ended up in the hands of evil murderers.

I had an offer to go to Iraq about 4 months ago, and I am soooooooo glad I turned it down.

582 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:32:16pm

Speaking of which, glwing what are you doing up?

583 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:33:49pm
584 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:34:19pm

#582 Geepers


Insomnia is a terrible thing to waste *wink*

585 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:37:18pm
586 Frank IBC  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:37:21pm

Geepers -

Insomnia (caused mainly by not eating enough for dinner), plus the morbid urge to see if a certain fish was currently floating at the top of the tank.

587 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:39:01pm

Well we all know why zombie's up in the middle of the night.

588 Frank IBC  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:40:11pm

Plus, the cow on my package of cheese is STILL laughing at me.

That bothers the hell out of me.

589 Buckaroo  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:40:33pm

Hey! Pipe down! It's 2240 in the islands and some of us have work in the morning!
:-)
:-)

590 Frank IBC  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:41:42pm

Geepers -

Er, so what's YOUR reason? :P

591 zombie  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:42:51pm

Actually, I just brushed my teeth, so no more for me. Ganglia cause cavities.

592 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:45:13pm

glwing, And to think it wasn't so long ago that you'd be stuck reading a book. ;-)

593 DouglasMcK  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:45:41pm

#533

I know what letter you're talking about but I can't find it either. Considering my news surfing was minor tonight (Fox, CBS, MSNBC, Drudge, and Cato) I'm starting to wonder if it was removed. Either that or I'm getting too tired to find it.

Sorry. Not that it would make much difference. As has been demonstrated recently, WMD's could have been moved to Kerry's home and the MSM wouldn't report it, and if they did, the drinkers of red sugar water would begin a chorus of rampant Liar comments.

594 Frank IBC  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:45:48pm

Could someone tell me please how 58,000 postal ballots have gone missing in Broward County in Florida? What the hell is going on there?

In Maryland, it was revealed that absentee ballots (don't know if it's all or just a portion) had the voter's party affiliation noted on the envelope. I wonder if it's anything like that.

595 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:45:50pm

Rayra,

Do you think the average Iraqi would know you could cook with some of this stuff?
Sounded strange to me.......and very dangerous.
Anyway, the point was some are at least mentioning the fact that perhaps it was already gone before we got there.

I don't pretend to know anything about this type of materials but it seems to me from the amount of weapons found (and not found but logged) all over Iraq, no one with any sense could say this guy was a not a threat.

596 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:46:12pm
597 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:47:47pm

Frank IBC, Have you ever read Stranger in a Strange Land?

598 zombie  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:47:55pm

It's actually quite enjoyable, after a frenzied day with 160,511 visitors, to have the whole place to ourselves. Ahhhhh...elbow room.

This afternoon, if you paused 30 seconds to correct your typos or think before posting, about 23 new comments from minions would cascade onto the thread before you clicked "post this comment." It was like the day after Thanksgiving at Macy's.

599 Momma V  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:48:04pm

Geepers

LOL for the C&W cartoon. I loved it-sent it to family and friends.

Rayra

Holy cow. Do we have strained relations with them over all this? Or is it one of those things where we are willing to maintain normal relations with them because we need that base? I have a friend whose AF husband is getting ready to do a tour over there and I'd like to think he's not walking into a mess.

600 DouglasMcK  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:50:31pm

Kerry-Hanoi link #3

Now, a third document [pdf file] provides more context, showing that Kerry's July 22, 1971, press conference calling on President Nixon to accept the seven-point plan presented by Viet Cong leader Madame Nguyen Thi Binh was perfectly aligned with Hanoi's step-by-step agenda.

"If you look at the sequence of events, it would certainly seem Kerry was following a plan and was not just simply acting spontaneously," said Jerome Corsi, a specialist on the Vietnam-era antiwar movement and co-author of "Unfit for Command," the best-seller challenging Kerry's qualification to lead the nation.

Yawn, if someone doesn't get this guy by now...

601 Buckaroo  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:52:18pm

# 599 M V

The sargeant can provide a much better answer, but to be concise,
"Do we have strained relations with them over all this?"
HELL YES!

and remember, they also share a border with iran -- just wait until we start putting the hammer to the mullahs (in whatever form it finally takes)

!!

602 Frank IBC  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:52:24pm

Frank IBC, Have you ever read Stranger in a Strange Land?

Another new troll? What thread is he on?

:P

603 glwing  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:53:44pm

zombie

It was like the day after Thanksgiving at Macy's.

LOL

I visited off and on for the past few days, reading, reading. Spent the weekend riding. We took a 350 mile ride on the back roads on Sunday through numerous tiny towns ( 10 or 12 houses-----we are talking small) and I counted yard signs. Was surprised that Kerry actually came out a few ahead of Bush in this red state... and in the backwoods.

604 Catttt  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:53:58pm

#559 applesweet - thanks. I've saved the link and will look at it tomorrow. It's way past bedtime. :)

605 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:55:08pm

zombie,

It was like the day after Thanksgiving at Macy's.

LOL.

And who ever hear of a zombie with good dental hygiene? LGF is a weird place.

606 Rayra[deleted]  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:56:39pm
607 Geepers  Wed, Oct 27, 2004 11:59:46pm

Frank IBC, LOL. We've had some real beauts recently huh? I think they're converging around the total eclipse of the moon.

608 glwing  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:01:23am

# 592 Geepers


glwing, And to think it wasn't so long ago that you'd be stuck reading a book. ;-)

Of the hundreds of books in this house, can't find one I haven't read or one I want to read a second time at the moment ;-) But, we have had the net since the days when you had to type in the http:// address and every search engine (WebCrawler ) just sent you to another search engine......and think there was only three. *grin*

Heck, I can remember when I couldn't sleep and could view every item on Ebay with a 14.4 modem
LOL

609 Frank IBC  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:02:17am

And who ever hear of a zombie with good dental hygiene? LGF is a weird place.

For some reason, that reminds me of the line

"You wouldn't hit a wahmpire with glasses, would you?"
-Loony Toons

610 glwing  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:06:12am
My Crusading Antacids have finely vanquished the Infidel Spicy Italian Sausage -laden spaghetti sauce.

Rayra,
Have that checked out. My husband lived on antacids and then found out he had acid reflux and needed meds for it.

611 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:12:43am
612 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:14:52am
613 Buckaroo  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:16:02am
614 Geepers  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:17:37am

Time for me to find a book. Good morning everyone. ;-)

616 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:23:02am
617 glwing  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:27:50am

Rayra,

Ok.........good to hear :)

Night :)

618 'Nam Grunt  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:36:49am

Morning everyone,

So what's up this morning as my coffee is brewing.

619 glwing  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:39:51am

Mornin' Nam :)

Just wondering what the MSM will do with the Russian take (nothing is a good guess) and waiting for Arafish to kick the bucket but he seems to be getting better and it may just be gallstones. :(

620 'Nam Grunt  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:45:26am

Morning glwing,

I thought this Russian arms story came out in the beginning of the War, I mean to say it was a known fact they assisted. Most of the crap that was found had Russian markings I thought. The only thing wrong with Arafish is that his meaness is catching up to him.

622 glwing  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:57:35am

Nam,

Sorry. Husband woke up and wanted to know if Arafish died yet.

Talking about Russia moving the missing stuff out of Iraq.

623 larado  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:58:32am

If Iran should arm itself with Nuclear Weapons,then so should Australia.And Australia should target Persia and ensure its destruction.

624 nimslight  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 12:59:58am

i have not seen the Russian thing on first look msnbc

625 glwing  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 1:05:49am

FOX talking about it now

626 glory  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 1:11:25am

This letter just came up on FreeRep. It is a letter to the American people from the families of 9-11. Please take the time to read it and share it with as many people as you can. America needs to hear these voices before they vote on Tuesday.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

627 Smit  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 1:15:14am

Morning all,

Nope, he's not dead yet - according to the BBC he was strong enough to attend morning prayers. {They didn't say to whom he was praying - I have my suspicions}

He is president of the Palestinian Authority, and chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organisation, which means that he also represents Palestinians beyond the West Bank and Gaza Strip .

That true evariste?

/teasing

Concern grows over ailing Arafat

628 Smit  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 1:23:12am

Wow - What a thread!

FWIW - I think LGF have been saying 'check the Bekka Valley for WMD' for about eleventy years now. {MSM just catching up}

Geepers - Phew, well done! Sleep well.

Noah got drunk & naked and then cursed Canaan when he woke up for laughing at him.

Lot fathered two sons, by his two daughters, who were the founders of the Moabites & Ammonites.

The Philistines were IIRC early Greek/Cretan settlers...

629 larado  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 1:23:43am

A nuclear armed state in Australia is our next step (if Iran arms)and then us Aussies will enlighten you lot.If Iran goes that way then so it will be.
Australia will go nuclear.

630 oldtimer  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 1:38:00am

HERE'S THE PERSHING STORY

#94 Athos

631 Goddessoftheclassroom  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 1:50:33am

#626

THANK YOU for posting this. How beautifully articulated. Sometimes I feel so strongly that situations are self-evident and can't fathom how anyone could view them differently that I just stammer. I've got to carry this with me.

The one thing I don't think got enough play with all the coverage of 9/11 is the children who died on those planes, including the students and teacher going to a conference (I think it was National Geographic). Those monsters KNEW children were on those planes and didn't care.

632 AmericanInSweden  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 2:07:32am

#588 Frank IBC

Plus, the cow on my package of cheese is STILL laughing at me.

That bothers the hell out of me.

Laughing cow cheese...mmmm...good cheese...disturbing package image...

633 nimslight  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 2:10:10am

#226 glory that was a good posting

i got that in my email last week
thanks for posting it , had to read it over

634 jroberson  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 2:27:29am

"A war time commander in chief should

* speak simply, clearly, and in perfect English (unless he happens to be a recent immigrant)

* be a real veteran of war where politicians made grave miscalculations (not a stay at home soldier)
"

So: if we return to the fashion of Leftists that have no reason to initiate a war, for any reason, how do we choose a CiC then? Once there are no "veteran(s) of war where politicians made grave miscalculations", how will we know who is proper to lead the nation?

The idea a man *must* possess some clear personal history of battle valory is silly. Was Lincoln a veteran of any war? Was Reagan or FDR?

(for FDR:[Link: www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu...]

No. Was Clinton? No, again.

How silly. Some of our most successful presidents were never even in the military. Kerry was a simple opportunist that enlisted to his liking, saving himself from the draft, and made a quick exit with hardly-valiant awards. He is only technically a hero, and hardly a man.

Your other litmus for president:

"speak simply, clearly, and in perfect English (unless he happens to be a recent immigrant)"

....is silly as well. Perfect English? Why must it be 'perfect'? I think Bush has spoken simply, so simply the MSM angelicizes Kerrys 'nuanced' and contorted approach to explanations, while mocking Bush's liguistic attire.

Bush is simply not an eloquent public speaker. I had no idea the Presidency is for elitists and no the 'comon man'. How un-Democratic your ideas are.

635 Outsider  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 2:32:25am

OT:

Palestinians make official request from Israel to move Arafat to the Ramallah hospital.
Israel approved, transfer will occur in about an hour.

I just hope he's not "playing dead", to deny Sharon some positive PR. He's done so on numerous occasions in the past.

636 rosh  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 2:38:00am

Has this been said? The Japanese hostage in Iraq -- Asahi Shimbun is reporting he's a high school dropout who was recently a dishwasher in Israel. It's not known why he was in Iraq.

637 glwing  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 2:48:01am

Militant Group Shows Polish Woman Hostage in Iraq

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Iraqi extremists in videotape aired Thursday by Al-Jazeera television showed what they said was a Polish woman hostage and demanded that Poland withdraw its troops from Iraq.

................

638 FrankNH  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 2:52:32am

634 jroberson
It would seem that in this particular election the left would rather be electing a "Debater-in-Chief" rather than a "Commander-in-Chief".

640 Smit  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 2:57:08am

{try again}
The beast, at least

641 GreatDane  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 2:57:12am

#639 Always funny how the media reports the election as "ultra-tight". How do they know. The WP poll?

642 Sarah D.  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 2:59:18am

OT

Ghosts and goblins at the United Nations

In the age of terrorism in which we all live, when suicide bombers are tearing into Israelis, Iraqis, Afghanis, Americans, Brits, Spaniards, Poles, Italians and Aussies, the United Nations continues its lopsided campaign against the only country in the Middle East where democracy thrives.

--snip

Thomas Friedman in the New York Times writes that many Arabs and Muslims identify their enemy as a composite "JIA" - Jew, Israeli and American. The Germans and the French, with large and intimidating Muslim populations, acknowledge rising anti-Semitic violence in their countries. This violence is not altogether Islamic, but Muslims in both countries are behind most of the thuggery.
643 Luigi  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:00:35am

The BBC is biting its nails over Arafish. The front page headline is:

Concern grows over ailing Arafat

The story is peppered with such words as "fears mount ... concern ... apprehension ..."

Of course, the BBC wants to be fair about Arafat and present all sides of the issue. They know there are some accusations surrounding his character and leadership over the years:

He has, in effect, been confined by the Israeli army since 2001, accused of fomenting violence in the Palestinian intifada. He denies the charges.


There, they've said it. Its not a whitewash.

644 jroberson  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:06:48am

"It would seem that in this particular election the left would rather be electing a "Debater-in-Chief" rather than a "Commander-in-Chief". "

Most decent debaters have positions and convictions. Kerry is completely devoid of either. He has no soul, no mettle, no honor. He may be able to appear like a cardboard statesmen straight from a Jack Ryan movie, but he's simply an empty suit full of pretentious blather.

Bush is like the common guy. He isn't an elitist, though he came from a rather elite background. You could have a beer with him.

I hate John Kerry and I don't even know him. I doubt anyone does.

May Heaven help us if he wins.

645 pwinWHOH  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:08:23am

#54 "Moonbat without any sense"
You troll, go back to your liby roots on the left-wing commie networ.
You are an example of the person who lives on lies when the truth is staring you in the face, and you still can't see.

You're the type that follows the song ........ "Tell me lies, tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies" You can't face the truth, so you'll take the lies.

646 mschenk  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:09:01am

The Belgian Media's Take on This Story: Wash. Times = pro Bush, so the story is fake. And besides, the NY Times denies it. (Oh, and don't mention that the NYT is pro-Kerry)

647 dustyroadguy  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:10:27am

armed miliant group claims to have "some" of the stolen explosives supposedly aided by US intelligence service MSNBC is reporting.......

same story frome AP

Armed Group Claims to Have Iraq Explosives

skerry still blameing administration and troops

648 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:11:57am
649 insane_kufr  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:12:11am

#54 independent_with_common_sense

Ever see that split screen of Kerry and Bush on the campaign trail: Kerry talks effortlessly, casually, from the heart, never has a need for a script or a teleprompter.

Yes, it is easier to appear effortless and casual when you're LYING your ass off!!!

650 nimslight  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:12:59am

cnn was running with the question, what happen to the 377 ton explosives reported ?

651 insane_kufr  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:15:03am

and you have absolutely no hesitation to talk about subjects you are imminently UNQUALIFIED to talk about.

Kerry talks and talks, but has never done anything - besides commit treason.

652 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:16:12am
653 dustyroadguy  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:18:47am

skerry's new 527 group in Iraq......

We Have the missing Explosives and the Administration Helped Us

Apparently skerry is now coordinating his daily campaign issue with Iraqi militants........

654 jroberson  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:19:24am

"The Belgian Media's Take on This Story: Wash. Times = pro Bush, so the story is fake. And besides, the NY Times denies it."

The link is dead.

Why would we ask the Belgians anything?

"(Oh, and don't mention that the NYT is pro-Kerry) "

Ok. The NYT, which is vastly pro-Kerry is to be believed, but the pro-Bush WT is not? Could your idiotic bias be any more apparent?

"armed miliant group claims to have "some" of the stolen explosives supposedly aided by US intelligence service MSNBC is reporting......."

Ok. So, after the munitions story breaks, Iraqi militants claim to be armed with the explosives? Why haven't they used the explosives? Why announc they have it yet not use it? Why *NOW*, not after the stuff was supposedly stolen? How did 'insurgents' remove a small mountain of RDX/HMX?

This whole event has been full of stupidity. The NYT should be ashamed for creating such a mess.

655 zonekeeper  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:21:08am

652, I couldn't have said it plainer myself.

656 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:26:20am
657 dustyroadguy  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:27:26am

Thomas Fiedman whinning the NYT today that the Bus Administration has destroyed the morderate middle in the US, and further claims Israel is on the 'verge of civil war.'

OMG.......

A Hole in the Heart

658 Beagle  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:40:56am

Morning everyone. One less day of non-stop political ads.

#657 dustyroadguy
Friedman is on crack, again:

normally thoughtful Guardian newspaper

#653 dustyroadguy
That is absolute proof of what I've been noticing for some time. The terrorists actions and statements are designed to create news stories more than anything else. I can't believe how bad AP has become. It's nothing but a coven of anti-American leftists.

659 Furious J  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:42:18am
This election cannot come soon enough for me, or I may have a breakdown...

Watching this election, I feel like I've been locked into a theater showing a horrible movie, and I just feel like screaming at the screen for it to be over.

Douchbag Kerry or Turd Sandwich Bush?

660 Smug Monkey  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:44:45am

Morning y'all...

Got an insider picture snapped late last night...

Die already, will ya?

661 dustyroadguy  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:51:19am

OT

from the front page:

The Man Who Would Be Kingmaker

“If truth be known, I carried some rather potent messianic fantasies with me from childhood, which I felt I had to control, otherwise they might get me in trouble,” Soros once wrote. When asked to elaborate on that passage by The Independent, Soros said, “It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of God, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.”

George Soros

I wonder if one of his newly formed 527's is the Iraqi militant group that's claimimg they have the stolen explosives?

662 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:52:15am
663 dustyroadguy  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:54:37am

Beagle

the loonies and crackhead's are taking over the world. It's almost as though National Lampon or Mad magazine is really running the things NOW. UFR !!!!!

664 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:00:11am

Woops!!!! It appears someone in Iraq forgot the decimal point when they wrote about the 377 tonnes. Would you believe 3 tonnes was closer to the mark.

While we're on the subject of our wonderful media and everyone else attempting to steer the elections towards John Fairytale Kerry. I'd like to thank them all for catering to the delusions and paranoia of the left with the Hyped Hysteria...

665 NY Nana  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:02:06am

We are off to Toronto for 2 weeks, and I just got this from a friend in my native Boston:

Curt Schilling interviewed on national TV (Good Morning Ameruca) finished his last answer by thanking the interviewer, then said "...and tell everybody to vote. Tell them to vote for Bush"

He is a real hero!

From the news this AM, it sounds more and more likethe weapons were gone before the US got there, and that Hanoi john is trying to perperetrate the Big Lie ....again. Bush, Kerry Battle On Missing Iraq Explosives

666 Furious J  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:02:57am

#662 -- American Infidel

Giant Douchebag v. Turd Sandwich was a reference to last night's South Park

667 dustyroadguy  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:04:54am

662 AI

Not that YOU need in further evidence to support your world view:

Here is some support:
The Sources of American Legitimacy

source: Foreign Affairs Magazine

and this I presume is a 'professinal periodical' for state department types.....it reads like a skerry campaign news release!

668 Furious J  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:06:20am

OK, I had comment #666. Sign from God, I must caption this photo.

669 Frank IBC  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:06:27am

DustyRoadGuy -

Should have been titled "Hole in the Brain".

V the K -

I hear ya, my friend. Would you like some Seared Memory with your Turd Sandwich?

Or perhaps Seared Memory with a side order of Bacon?

(Or am I dating myself by alluding to those "this is your brain on drugs" commercials?)

670 Iron Fist  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:08:18am

#667 dustyroadguy,

Foreign Affairs is put out by the Council on Foreign Relations. I used to be a subscriber. They give a broad spectrum of views on foreign policy from the far Left to the far Right.

671 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:08:23am
672 dustyroadguy  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:09:53am

frank

(Or am I dating myself by alluding to those "this is your brain on drugs" commercials?)

Well....ah......Yes!

however no more than I would with a statement like

'no more comments from the peanut gallery.'

673 mad_scientist  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:10:11am

Did anyone mention that Kerry will automatically question the TIMING of the report? I can just hear it now....makes me cringe....

674 dustyroadguy  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:12:23am

Fist

got'cha.....I'd say that article I referenced would be WAAAAAAAYYYYYYY left..

675 independent_with_common_sense  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:13:44am

This is not a breaking story--unless October 2003 counts as breaking.

[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]
Aah, the wild-eyed, far-right Front Page Mag (once a favorite read of mine when I was desperately looking for any bit of news that supported the Iraq war case).

If you liked that, you might also like this:

Did you know Saddam's weapons have been found?

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

That Saddam had armed his troops with chemical weapons?

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

676 Buck  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:14:16am

Idiot Saddam should have hitched a ride.

I remember the caravan to Syria, with the Russian ambassador. I thought for sure they were sneaking Saddam.

"Save the weapons of medium destruction, don't worry about me."

677 EE  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:14:44am

OT, I think that this is the most important Victor Davis Hanson article I have ever read.
Country at a Crossroads
[Link: www.victorhanson.com...]

Had Lincoln lost the 1864 vote, a victorious General McClellan would have settled for an American continent divided, with slavery intact. Without Woodrow Wilson's reelection in 1916 -- opposed by the isolationists -- Western Europe would have lost millions only to be trampled by Prussian militarism. Franklin Roosevelt's interventionism saved liberal democracy. And without the 1980 election of Ronald Reagan and his unpopular agenda for remaking the military, the Soviet Union might still be subsidizing global murder.
This election marks a similar crossroads in our history. We are presented with two radically different candidates with profound disagreements about how to conduct a historic worldwide war. We should remember that all our victorious past presidents were, at the moments of their crises, deeply unpopular precisely because they chose the difficult, long-term sacrifice for victory over the expedient and convenient pleas for accommodation (if not outright capitulation). We are faced with just such an option today: a choice between a president whose call for patience and sacrifice promises victory, and a pessimist stirring the people with the assurances that we should not have fought, and now cannot win, the present war in Iraq.
Our terrorist enemy has no uniforms or aircraft, but nevertheless struck at the very heart of our financial and political capitals in a fashion unimaginable by Nazi Germany, Tojo's Japan, or the Soviet Union. The Islamic fascists' creed is Hitlerian, their methodology primeval. Their aim is not mere territory: They want nothing less than the destruction of Western freedom, through the takeover of the Middle East and the use of its petroleum wealth to craft a nuclear, global caliphate, Dark Aged in its values, 21st-century in its lethality...

Read the article, and see what a disaster we would be letting ourselves in for with Kerry as the man in the Oval Office in the face of this threat.

Here is VDH's conclusion.

In sum, a Kerry presidency will lack either the vision or the resolve to finish the war, resulting in a defeat for the United States in Iraq -- with calamitous consequences for the brave reformers there, an end to liberal momentum in the Middle East, a reversal in the conduct of Libya, Pakistan, and the Gulf, and assurance to Syria, Lebanon, and Iran that the United States is conducting not war but a criminal investigation akin to efforts against gambling or prostitution. Chamberlain-like, we will return to the complacency of the pre-9/11 days, regarding the telltale signs of the destruction to come as mere "nuisances." All the hysterical invective of John Kerry's surrogates -- like George Soros, Michael Moore, Terry McAuliffe, and Terasa Heinz Kerry -- cannot change that bleak and depressing fact.
678 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:14:57am
679 glwing  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:17:02am

#675 dependent_with_no_sense

You have posted articles over and over in this thread.
Waste bandwidth somewhere else.

680 scaramouche  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:17:27am

OT - Jews commit political Hari-Kerry

681 Frank IBC  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:23:43am

Iron Fist -

CFR? Wow, you're one of The Illuminati! I'll bet you also read the journals of the Tri-Lateral Commission and the Bilderberger Group. :)

{cue Twilight Zone theme}

/Moonbat

682 dustyroadguy  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:24:53am

depends_full_of_fecal_matter

FOAD toad.....

GAZE

683 nimslight  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:26:46am

#675 independent_with_common_sense
what a trip you have a typo in your name.
you forgot the NO,
it should be before common

684 Frank IBC  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:27:27am

Independent of Common Sense:

Aah, the wild-eyed, far-right Front Page Mag

What makes it "far-right", other than that it's not "moderate" and "centrist" like you are?

Sounds like you don't know the personal history of the editors, do you?

Q: Why did the moderate centrist chicken cross the road?

A: To get to the middle.

685 Bucky Katt  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:27:55am

#664

Saw the 3 ton quote on ABC News here:

Discrepancy Found In Explosives Amount

And the other issue- those IAEA sealed bunkers? Turns out they weren't that "sealed" after all because they had ventilation slats which were easily removed and the materials could be taken without ever tampering with the IAEA seals. Put that together with the fact the in March the IAEA did not do an inspection but only verfied that the seals were present and it's pretty obvious that none of this stuff had been physically inventoried since January 2003.

It's these incomptent fools that J F'in K wants us to put our faith in?

Argh!

686 scaramouche  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:28:00am

OT - If the chicks are weeping, you know the end is drawing near.

687 dustyroadguy  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:29:26am

OT

Stern vs Powell

the shocker himself calls into a talk radio show Ronn Owens:

FCC CHAIRMAN, MICHAEL POWELL AND HOWARD STERN

click the link for media player or real radio and go to about 25 minutes in the show.....

Michael Powell is Colin Powells son

688 NY Nana  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:30:52am

#680 Scaramouche

OT

We are leaving in about 30 minutes for Toronto...

I posted to you...on the dead arafart thread:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

BTW, thanks for the article..this Jew and her husband already voted absentee for President Bush!

689 NY Nana  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:32:47am

#686 Scaramouche

Your mouth to G-d's ear!

690 impact00  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:36:11am

#675 Independent

Like Hanoi Kerry you want to argue points based on hindsight. But, this election is about the next four years.

Based on the intelligence available even Clinton on BBC acknowledged Saddam had to be removed from power. There is more than enough proof that Hussein had dealings with the thugs.

It is Hanoi Kerry who keeps continually misleading the American people. He speaks with a forked tongue on each and every issue. It is certainly easier to point out shortcomings of past plans, however, its a lot harder to propose alternatives. Without giving any VIABLE ALTERNATIVES you expect people to vote for Opportunistic Hanoi Kerry?

Obviously, the scenario that the explosives were removed before the troops got there is more probable than they were after because of the sheer magnitude of work involved (Men/forklifts/tractor trailers etc.) This is common sense.

What exactly is a plan for peace after the war? Do I hear a deafening silence? As W says, a litany of complaints is not a plan. A reasonable plan is better than no plan at all. For your and everyone else's safety and the prestige of America around the world, Vote for President BUSH. You will not regret it.

691 scaramouche  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:36:39am

Accepted mainstream definition of "wild-eyed far-right": the inexplicable resolve to defeat fascism, eschew defeatism and express admiration for "the land of the free and the home of the brave".

Yup. Guess I'm a wild-eyed far-rightnik. Just like all those brave soldiers and citizens who got together to defeat the last go-round of fascism in the 20th C.

692 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:37:38am

Today's insider photograph is brought to you by selected Fire-people for Kerry, an Inside Look from the Outside of John Fairytale Kerry's campaign strategies.

693 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:38:01am
694 scaramouche  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:38:58am

NY Nana--Missed your post. If you have time before you leave, email me thru LGF and I'll send you my phone number.

695 hunter888  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:38:58am

Kerry's latest spin

"I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."

/sarcasm

696 independent_with_common_sense  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:39:02am

What a pathetic election: we have one party scaring voters that unless they get reelected dark-skinned foreigners are going to invade America and blow up offices while the other party is scaring voters into thinking that unless they get elected, their offices are going to dark-skinned foreigners. The question: who will be stronger on terrorism and who on outsourcing is ridiculous.

NEW RULES: (make this a constitutional amendment)

In a time of war, the Presidential election shall not be a divisive, ugly competition between two (bottom of the barrel candidates) parties but a low-key, solemn unity ticket.

There is something fundamentally wrong with the system when at a time of national sacrifice political committees and their surrogates spend billions of dollars on securing the White House while millions of Americans stake it out without basics like jobs, health insurance and flu vaccine.

If this is such a critical election as scaremongers and their lackeys on either side insist, why not share the power? Heck, the electorate is obviously split between the two candidates--so it is obviously unfair to saddle a major chunk of this electorate with a candidate they did not vote for, isn't it?

If Bush should win by a whisker, isn't he the President of the Disunited States? Isn't this what happened in 2000?

So why not have Bush and Kerry split the Oval Office for the next four years?

Now more than ever, we do not need an all Republican ticket any more than an all Democratic one, especially because neither party appears likely to get a mandate from the American people.

Flame this if you want, but I want the ugliness behind us. This civilized nation is being torn apart by opportunists, scare tacticians, and demagogues.

Only you can put an end to it.

697 RKA  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:41:22am

LLL Worgs to Live By

"The three words my mother left me:"

Integrity - Don't say anything until the U.N. and the New York Times have put it in writing.

Integrity - Make sure all your half-truths and gross exaggerations form a well-integrated pattern of America-bashing.

Integrity - Above all else, marry up, and look to Michael Moore and Howard Dean for inspiration.

698 RKA  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:42:31am

Worgs or Words... either one works for me.

What's a worg, anyway?

699 NY Nana  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:43:44am

#694 Scaramouche

I left my email up for you..can you email me? I am not closing down for about 10 minutes.

I don't know how to email through LGF! :=(

700 moonsbreath  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:45:04am

Wayyyyyy off topic.

Recall that sKerry claims he met with the Vietnamese in Paris because he was on his honeymoon, get this....

Kerry, then 27, cut a figure that was both haunting and haunted. On May 23, 1970, he married Julia, and honeymooned at the Jamaica home of his lost friend Pershing.

It's from the Kerry/Edwards website. Is there a Paris, Jamaica?

[Link: www.johnkerry.com...]

701 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:46:58am
702 Art2Gecko  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:48:11am

Yippee!! Bush erases Kerry's lead in Pa. poll
Thursday, October 28, 2004
[Link: www.post-gazette.com...]
Associated Press

President Bush has erased Sen. John Kerry's narrow lead in Pennsylvania only days before Tuesday's election, according to a new Quinnipiac University poll.

Among likely voters, including people who have made up their minds or are leaning toward one candidate, Bush was backed by 49 percent compared with 47 percent for Kerry, according to the telephone survey of 909 voters conducted between Friday and Tuesday. Four percent were undecided.

The latest numbers reflected a tightening of the race since the last Quinnipiac poll, taken in mid-October, which showed Democrat Kerry taking a slight lead -- 51 percent to the Republican incumbent's 46 percent.

"Bush has done a better job in the last week of firming up his base, Republicans and men, while taking away some women voters from Kerry," said Clay F. Richards of the university's polling institute. "Women are the key in this race and they are torn between their concerns about terrorism, which means voting for Bush, and worries about the economy, which means voting for Kerry."

The independent poll by the Connecticut-based university also showed Republican U.S. Sen. Arlen Specter maintaining a huge lead over his Democratic challenger, U.S. Rep. Joe Hoeffel, in his bid for a fifth term.

Among likely voters, 55 percent favored Specter and 33 percent backed Hoeffel. Constitution Party candidate James Clymer garnered 7 percent and 5 percent were undecided. Libertarian Party candidate Betsy Summers was not included in the survey.

The poll carries a sampling margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.

A poll commissioned by the Post-Gazette and reported Sunday found that Kerry had a 2-point lead over Bush statewide.

703 traveler  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:49:10am

I think the Independently-Fellating-Kerry-with-Common-Sense needs to ease up on his medication: he's repeating himself.

(Independent: "Mothership, Mothership -- can you read me???!!! Can't assimilate!!! Abort!!!)

704 dustyroadguy  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:49:40am

depends_full_of_fecal_matter

get your own blog--there you can write and link to yourself to your hearts content......why you can even respond and comment even gaze your own answers that YOU feel are trollish.....

they are free here:

[Link: www.blogspot.com...]

FOAD toad.....

GAZE

705 RickZ  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:49:50am

# 277 tank demon:

* be a real veteran of war
You mean like Lincoln, FDR, Wilson or Truman?

# 282 andthenbalmmo!:

Truman did serve in the US Army artillery in World War One.

Thanks for that. Just when you think that people can go to another screen and google a little facts before they post, you realize they can't.

As for the Lincoln canard about never serving in war, I am sick and tired of hearing this oft-repeated lie take hold as fact. Mr. Lincoln volunteered for a 30 day tour in the militia, being elected a captain of his unit in the Black Hawk War. Once his thirty day enlistment was up, he signed up for two more thirty day tours as a private in another regiment. Talk about moving down in the world. While the Black Hawk War is not our most well known war, nor our most historical, the fact is Mr. Lincoln did serve in the military in a time of war. It is a serious pet-peeve of mine that really ticks me off when I keep hearing this "Lincoln never served but was a great war-time president" abuse of historical facts and Mr. Lincoln's volunteer militia service. Besides, Mr. Lincoln's length of service is almost comparable to Kerry's days in Viet Nam, and Kerry's Viet Nam service is pretty big news, or so I hear told.

706 sockeye  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:50:37am

story with pics from abc news crew

A 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS crew in Iraq shortly after the fall of Saddam Hussein was in the area where tons of explosives disappeared.

The missing explosives are now an issue in the presidential debate. Democratic candidate John Kerry is accusing President Bush of not securing the site they allegedly disappeared from. President Bush says no one knows if the ammunition was taken before or after the fall of Baghdad on April 9, 2003 when coalition troops moved in to the area.

Using GPS technology and talking with members of the 101st Airborne 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS determined our crew embedded with them may have been on the southern edge of the Al Qaqaa installation, where that ammunition disappeared. Our crew was based just south of Al Qaqaa. On April 18, 2003 they drove two or three miles north into what is believed to be that area.

During that trip, members of the 101st Airborne Division showed the 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS crew bunker after bunker of material labelled explosives. Usually it took just the snap of a bolt cutter to get in and see the material identified by the 101st as detonation cords.

"We can stick it in those and make some good bombs." a soldier told our crew.

There were what appeared to be fuses for bombs. They also found bags of material men from the 101st couldn't identify, but box after box was clearly marked "explosive."

In one bunker, there were boxes marked with the name "Al Qaqaa", the munitions plant where tons of explosives allegedly went missing.

Once the doors to the bunkers were opened, they weren't secured. They were left open when the 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS crew and the military went back to their base.

"We weren't quite sure what were looking at, but we saw so much of it and it didn't appear that this was being secured in any way," said photojournalist Joe Caffrey. "It was several miles away from where military people were staying in their tents".

Officers with the 101st Airborne told 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS that the bunkers were within the U.S. military perimeter and protected. But Caffrey and former 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS Reporter Dean Staley, who spent three months in Iraq, said Iraqis were coming and going freely.

707 Lightning_Man  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:50:40am

#696

No presidential candidate has to scare me about dark skinned foreigners; that happened 11 September 2001.

Sign in my cube at work:

9-11-01: Never Forget

And I never will.

708 Beagle  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:50:48am

#668 Furious J
Obviously Kerry is saying "All hail Satan". He lies like a rug, married for money (twice) after growing up rich, and has royal blood. Prince of lies, literally.

#670 Iron Fist
LOL. We both like Geiger and subscribed to Foreign Affairs. If only I could kick ass. Man, I would so like to be able to do that.

#677 EE
VDH should be mandatory reading for everyone. Our new resident troll should be required to attempt to Fisk it.

709 traveler  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:51:47am

I really think Independent wants sexual favors from John Kerry. He's spouting so much trash in enemy territory, it just smacks of desperation.

Probably isn't wanted by the LLLs.....so he trolls over here, dreaming of Kerry's pants unzipped.....

710 independent_with_common_sense  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:55:57am
No presidential candidate has to scare me about dark skinned foreigners;

In hindsight (what a cruel tool) was it wise of Reagan to arm them?

711 glwing  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:56:36am

# 702 Art2Gecko

I don't trust polls. Too hard to poll the LLL double/triple voters and the dead voting for Kerry.

712 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:58:06am

Frank IBC,

Sounds like you don't know the personal history of the editors, do you?

For those who may be unaware, 'wild eyed far-right' conservative and Frontpagemag editor David Horowitz supports civil unions for gay couples and a woman's right to choose. He also openly mocks evangelical claims that homosexuality is a spiritual disease that can be cured. Nonetheless in the fever swamp that is 'Independent' thought these days Horowitz is clearly worse than Hitler!

713 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 4:58:48am
714 davesax  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:01:22am

One of the most disgusting New York Times editorials ever.

715 traveler  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:01:38am

#710

That's the best ya got? The Koran tells them to murder -- Reagan "arming them" a decade before September 11th is a speck......They hijacked planes, you idiot.

716 DCMC  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:01:47am

Why do we keep up the pretense that the UN is designed to promote justice and peace? Obviously, in the case of Russia, France, and Germany, opposition to the war was a purely commercial consideration. Things would be a lot easier if we could just deal with the issues as they are, rather than wasting our time, (or rather the other countries wasting their time) trying to make these purely financial considerations sound like appeals to justice.

DCMC

717 Beagle  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:02:56am

NOTE: This new troll is a Moby plant trying to dredge up negative comments it can use against the blog by imputing them on Charles. As you can see from its last post it knows nothing but stupid talking points debunked years ago.

As in, Russia, France, and China were the main suppliers during the Iran-Iraq War. At the time, Iran seemed like the larger threat. Reagan was merely continuing the Carter policy of favoring the "secular socialist" Saddam.

Don't let the fact door hit you in the ass on the way out of here.

718 davesax  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:03:13am

Dirk

I wasn't aware about Horowitz's more liberal stances on homosexuality, abortion, etc. Interesting stuff. Thanks for the post.

719 traveler  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:05:55am

#717

Thanks for the info on the troll -- I knew that persistence with weak talking points was suspicious. Can't brag about Kerry, (treasonous anti-war "hero", lazy Senator), so they keep trolling along to feel alive.....

720 AmericanInSweden  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:06:50am

Did you guys see the Bush Victory Salute?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Saw it on Drudge...and I LOVE it!!!

We need a president that has personality...and not a walking skeleton that moans and drones on and on.

I just wish he would give that salute to ShitheadShroeder or NecropheliacChirac...

721 quercus albus  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:06:57am

OT

Over at Drudge

CIA and FBI have authenticated al Qaeda videotape

No details yet....

722 NY Nana  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:07:25am

#713 American Infidel

Curt Schilling!

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Scaramouche: Click on my nic to get my email addy!

When we return, we will be returning to cheer the President-Elect, George W. Bush!

We already voted absentee....

723 traveler  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:09:15am

ANOTHER document ties Kerry-the-happy-Communist to Hanoi....

[Link: www.wnd.com...]

Just letting the trolls and the NYT know what to ignore today....

724 leftover54  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:09:21am

So, if Putin has come around after "seeing the light" (which I doubt) the Russians can tell us exactly where all the WMDs are since they hid them, right ? W.'s invasion has "turned the tables" around the world.
Putin has to deal with us now.

725 Art2Gecko  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:09:23am

CIA and FBI have authenticated al Qaeda videotape

[Link: www.drudgereport.com...]

726 V the K  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:09:47am

Okay, done, but I think the fat guy caption set is better.

727 'Nam Grunt  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:10:31am

Guys and girls,

It's a known fact the L3 moonbats will say and do anything to discredit the true Patriots of this Great Country. I have found lately, that it's better to just disregard them and walk away with a confident smile, we know already whom our next President is going to be, GWB. I suggest we treat the stupid trolls that come here the same way.

728 beblebrox  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:10:44am
At the time, Iran seemed like the larger threat. Reagan was merely continuing the Carter policy of favoring the "secular socialist" Saddam.

Beyond that it followed righ along with the Kissengerian Realpolitik theories that were dominant at the time: "he's a bastard, but he's our bastard."

Nothing wrong with that, it served our foreign policy intrests throughout the Cold War. Times have changed since then, however. We have the freedom now to work for real change in the region and not simply promote "stability."

729 NY Nana  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:11:03am

#714 dave sax

Why, oh why did I ever click on that link??? You are so right.

BTW, that moby plant is pathetic, even by troll standards...as if they had any.

730 Lightning_Man  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:11:39am

#710

Navigator: Captain, it's a troll.
Captain: Ready GAZE shields.
Science Officer: GAZE shields on line.
Captain: GAZE on my mark.
Helm: Crap storm ahead.
Captain: GAZE, bore factor 6.
Science Officer: GAZing, bore factor 6.

731 wiseoldfool  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:11:53am

The "story" is that Russia, France, the U.N. and others CONSPIRED to systematically "clean" Iraq so that when the U.S. led coalition did invade, no WMDs would be found.

They thought they could kill two birds with one stone: (1) discredit the Bush Administration and (2) cover up their corruption in the Oil For Food Program and illegal trade with Saddam's government.

732 beblebrox  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:12:42am
CIA and FBI have authenticated al Qaeda videotape

Just hit Drudge

733 Art2Gecko  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:13:30am

ABCNEWS EXECUTIVES CONSIDER POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS OF AIRING DISTURBING TERROR TAPE DURING ELECTION WEEK... MORE...

drudge..

734 traveler  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:13:33am

101st Airborne Vet:

"No Way those Explosives were there"

[Link: www.newsmax.com...]

735 Art2Gecko  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:14:50am

Russia Denies Involvement in Removing Explosives From Iraqi Military Facility

[Link: ap.tbo.com...]

MOSCOW (AP) - Russia angrily denied allegations Thursday that Russian forces had smuggled a cache of high explosives out of Iraq prior to the U.S. invasion in March 2003.
Defense Ministry spokesman Vyacheslav Sedov dismissed the allegations as "absurd" and "ridiculous."

"I can state officially that the Russian Defense Ministry and its structures couldn't have been involved in the disappearance of the explosives, because all Russian military experts left Iraq when the international sanctions were introduced during the 1991 Gulf War," he told The Associated Press. .......

736 leftover54  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:16:18am

further - I don't think the leopard has changed it's spots (Putin) but no matter, because W. did the right thing in Iraq, Putin has no choice but to deal with us.

Bush the "moron" - right...

I don't know if it's the kind of luck that comes your way when you do the right thing or are Bush/Cheney that expert chess players ? If he is this smart, he should be elected for life (IMHO).

Maybe expert fisherman is a more apt description. Reel 'em in W. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

737 American Infidel[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:18:22am
738 Slim  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:18:28am

#731

Bingo wise old fool! Now let's hope the American public can quickly process this story and reach the same succinct conclusion. But while they try, Kerry will obfuscate and mock Bush for trusting Putin and play back Bush's "I saw his soul" quotes.

739 Frank IBC  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:19:11am

What a pathetic election: we have one party scaring voters that unless they get reelected dark-skinned foreigners are going to invade America and blow up offices while the other party is scaring voters into thinking that unless they get elected, their offices are going to dark-skinned foreigners.

NEW RULES: (make this a constitutional amendment)

In a time of war, the Presidential election shall not be a divisive, ugly competition between two (bottom of the barrel candidates) parties but a low-key, solemn unity ticket.

Well, that worked real well when Israel tried it, didn't it?

And how does one legally mandate "low-key-ness" and "solemness"?

It is obviously unfair to saddle a major chunk of this electorate with a candidate they did not vote for, isn't it?

So why not have Bush and Kerry split the Oval Office for the next four years?

So instead of saddling a chunk of the electorate with a candidate for whom they did not vote, you're going to saddle the ENTIRE electorate with a candidate for whom they did not vote.

Brilliant, that one.

Since elections are all "pathetic", why don't we just get rid of them?

The question: who will be stronger on terrorism and who on outsourcing is ridiculous...This civilized nation is being torn apart by opportunists, scare tacticians, and demagogues.

So far, you haven't given any evidence that you believe in anything other than your own supposedly superior intelligence. You're a moral coward who holds no strong beliefs, for fear of being labeled as a "partisan extremist".

(Sorry, folks - I'm on a diet and I have to give away these yummy Troll Snacks, else they're going straight to my thighs.)

740 traveler  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:19:55am

#720

That was GREAT! Loved it!

That quick swipe of his hair -- so much more real and downright manly than Edwards-so-Pretty fussing with his hair like a girl.

741 DCMC  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:19:56am

#714 davesax:

I read the NYT article, I didn't agree with all of it, especially the thing about "even when civilians are in the line of fire" but I didn't think it was horrible. Since Israel is withdrawing, they better make sure Hamas doesn't benefit from it. Hamas is going to benefit from it though, so it's kind of a moot point. I do agree with the thing about the Gaza settlements being a mistake, at least politically and tactically.

DCMC

742 Slim  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:23:29am

#740 Traveller

That is a terrific contrast in "coiffing," isn't it? I thought the same thing when I saw that.

743 loppyd  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:23:49am

Totally OT and sorry if this is a repeat, but I've only slept a scant few hours since the Red Sox won the Series:

Curt Schilling endorsed President Bush on Good Morning America this morning! Just another reason to love the Sox! l

744 Dean Douthat  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:25:33am

independent_with_common_sense:

Here's some friendly advice: beware of equating linguistic skill with intelligence or effectiveness. Did you ever listen to D. D. Eisenhower speak?

745 Furious J  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:26:34am

Science Officer: Captain, there's a breach in the GAZE shields.
Usless Empath: Captain, I sense feelings in the troll, but no intellect. Only feelings.
Captain: What... kind... of... feelings.
Useless Empath:... anger... fear... sexual inadequacy...and overwhelming self-hatred... I sense the troll is simply a tool being controlled by some other consciousness.
Captain: What... kind... of... consciousness.
Useless Empath: Something dark... something bitter... something that hungers and hungers and can never be fed enough...
Ensign Expendable: Michael Moore?

746 MrsEener  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:28:03am

I don't know why some people sound so surprised about this. Many sources in the non-MSM reported on the huge convoys of trucks from Iraq into Syria back before the war began. They didn't at the time have documents detailing the contents being transported, but you didn't need much of a brain to figure it out.

747 TMF  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:31:13am

The Russians have had a tendency towards Amorality for a long time.

As reflected by the works of Dostoyevski, Chekov, etc.

Great artists, but you wouldnt want them as allies.

748 traveler  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:31:18am

Another interesting comment by that 101st vet, ignored by the MSM ([Link: www.newsmax.com...]

While there were a few boxes inside the bunkers, Dixon told the Nashville host, "There was nowhere near what they're saying that came up missing that was inside those bunkers."
The crates that were left behind, however, had some interesting markings. "We pretty much knew that they contained explosives from the symbols that were on the crates themselves," Dixon said. "There was nothing we could actually read because the majority of it was written in French."
And he had an interesting observation for those in the press who dismiss pre-war Iraq as a major player in global terrorism, noting that prior to stopping off at Al-Qaqaa, his unit has cleaned out a terrorist training camp.
"There were terrorist training camps all over [Iraq]," he told Gill.

>

749 lazytart  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:32:43am

So why not have Bush and Kerry split the Oval Office for the next four years?

Idiot.

750 Al di Grandpa  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:33:23am

What is significant about this is that it is from a specific high ranking official, not an unamed or 'under condition of
anonymity'. That is the first test of credibility. Had not the NYT or the UN spread the 'Missing Stuff..' story this
info would not have been issued. It compromises US intelligence efforts.

Thank you NYT. And thank you John Kerry for a such desparate attempt to politicize the story. You knew or should have known. You ARE unfit.

A

751 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:34:07am

From Cliff May this morning:

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Also significant: The Bill Gertz report that Russian special forces worked with Saddam’s intelligence service to shred documents and remove weapons – including missile components and Chemical Weapons – to Syria.

Recall again that Gen. Michael DeLong, former Deputy Commander of the US Central Command, has said: “Two days before March 19, 2003, we saw quite a number of vehicles going into Syria. We could not go after them because we said we'd give Saddam 48 hours.”

General DeLong is among those who continue to believe that there were “WMD in Iraq before and during the war.” On what basis does he say that? “You have multiple-source intelligence,” he has noted. “Also, from other Arab leaders -- as Tommy Franks says in his book -- King Abdullah said Saddam has WMD. President Mubarek of Egypt said … Saddam has weapons of mass destruction. Other leaders who have chosen not to be named said the same thing. We had technical intelligence that saw the same thing. …a lot of WMD went into Syria. We've gotten indications some went into Lebanon, and probably some went into Iran.”

Food for thought people. Of course, the Russians will deny everything - as they should. They're following their own national interests which differ from our own. They think that complicity with Islamic regimes and totalitarian regimes is going to stave off a final confrontation with the jihadis, but they are wrong (does Beslan ring a bell?) They relied so heavily on UNSCAM that they had to bendover backwards to cover up their complicity. They are in full CYA mode right now, and will say and do anything to throw suspicions elsewhere, except on their own actions and complicity.

752 RWW  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:34:20am

What's the scoop about the CIA authenticating the tape? Drudge says it's real.

753 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:35:19am

#743 just read that Kerry was in Ohio wearing a Red Sox cap that wasn't broken in. Go figure.

754 Frank IBC  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:35:45am

V the K -

Cpt. Kirk - "Lt. Uhura, please open a hailing frequency to Planet Kenneth."

Lt. Uhura - "Kenneth? What is the frequency?"

(OK, that one was really, really bad...)

755 leftover54  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:36:18am

Defense officials said the Russians can provide information on what happened to the Iraqi weapons and explosives that were transported out of the country. Officials believe the Russians also can explain what happened to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

Let's see how forthcoming they are. The rats are denying any involvement right now. The Putin supports Bush thing makes this all very interesting. Will Putin stand up and discredit his own people ? As much as Putin tried to look like W. after the Beslan mess I didn't see a "soul" in this former KGB man. Lets pray he has "seen the light". Who knows - he may be "born again". Could be the most pivotal event since the break up of the USSR.

756 independent_with_common_sense  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:36:42am

Did the explosives go missing before the US invasion--satellite pictures will reveal the truth but the fact that these have not been released is telling.

Look, Saddam obviously had a gameplan--disseminate explosives, ammunition, guns, etc to his troops and loyalists and have them disperse in the face of an American onslaught.

Allow the Americans to march to Baghdad with minimum fuss, then surround them and begin the counter-attack.

Saddam had 660,000 tons of conventional explosives--he could have disseminated all of it--thank God he didn't.

Now our military planners fucked it up--they knew about Al Qaqa and similar depots but then they went in with so few troops that other targets (Oil Ministry) took higher priority.

This is no way to fight a war. A good plan would have called for airdropping marines on to these depots to secure them FIRST. Or bomb these sites from the air to destroy the ammunition. If you are going to fight a war, fight it dammit.

757 traveler  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:37:22am

More on Russia from my Omega Letter Daily Intelligence Briefing, October 28, 2004:


In March, 2003, President Bush made a phone call to Russian President
Vladimir Putin to express U.S. concerns "involving prohibited hardware
that has been transferred from Russian companies to Iraq," White House
Press Spokesman Ari Fleischer told journalists during the March 24 White
House press briefing.

"We are very concerned that there are reports of ongoing cooperation and
support to Iraqi military forces being provided by a Russian company that
produces GPS [global positioning system] jamming equipment," Fleischer
said in response to a journalist's question. "There are other causes of
concern, as well, involving night-vision goggles and anti-tank guided
missiles."

At the time, President Putin assured President Bush that he had his facts
wrong. Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov gave a statement that day
saying Russia had observed all UN sanctions against Iraq and had not
supplied any military equipment to Saddam Hussein.

Of course, it was nonsense. Prior to the regime change in Baghdad in April
2003, French and Russian oil companies possessed oil contracts with Saddam
Hussein's regime that covered roughly 40 percent of the Iraq's oil wealth.

Political and military ties between Moscow and Baghdad were extensive.
Documents found in the bombed-out headquarters of the former Iraqi
intelligence service (Mukhabarat) in Baghdad reveal the full extent of
intelligence cooperation between the Russian and Iraqi governments.

According to reports in the London Sunday Telegraph, "Russia provided
Saddam Hussein's regime with wide-ranging assistance in the months leading
up to the war, including intelligence on private conversations between
Tony Blair and other Western leaders."

The Russians are also believed to have illegally sold arms to Iraq right
up until the outbreak of war with the United States in March 2003. The
Bush Administration accused Russian arms dealers of selling thousands of
night-vision goggles, as well as anti-tank guided missiles and electronic
jamming equipment, to the Iraqis in open violation of UN sanctions.

During the course of Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, Russia reportedly
provided him with $14 billion worth of arms shipments.

[end of excerpt]

758 JustAHouseWife  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:40:32am

from the AP :

"They had a responsibility to secure this material," Edwards said in an interview broadcast on NBC's "Today" on Thursday. "It was important for securing Iraq, it was important for the safety of our troops, it was important for keeping that material out of the hands of terrorists. And what we know is, they didn't do it."


I don't know if F'Kerry and his runny mate understand how pissed off the military or anyone associated with it is this morning. The radio was on fire with calls last night. Over and over again I hear about our troops coming home from Iraq shocked at what they are hearing in the media about this War.

In my household, my husband, father, and father in law are vets; two of them retired disabled , two uncles are vets, and a couple of my friend's sons are over there serving right now as well.

What the hell are these two idiots gonna do if they are gawd forbid elected?

One thing that keeps me sane is that Bush supporters aren't whiners. Nor do they crave attention. I think we are strong in numbers but more silent. We won't whine for four years if we lose, but we will sit back and watch and if we get really pissed off ; if we have to do or say something, we will have backing from the military! LOL

There are a few "Kerry" stickers and signs on cars and walls around here in Orange County, not many Bush and if there are they are funny, or tastefully displayed. Bush hater posters here and there are homemade and look like 3yr olds made them stuck on power polls.

Insecure people need attention, brag alot (look at hollywood) and find fault with any action no matter the outcome. They look at the middle of a story like a broken record, and don't look at the outcome, future or the big picture. We've heard them whine for four years. Their energy alone; that psychic vampire behavior, has stopped this country from any progress at all in just about every aspect of society.

What I do I learn with this breaking news ...Kerry and people like him continue to salivate over petty unfactual details, unreality...crazy stuff over and over, like lone men thinking about a night out at the Pussycat Theatre. And on top of that... nothing positve gets done.

759 Frank IBC  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:41:45am

Since the topic of Star Trek has been brought up, I always thought it would be cool if, due to a transporter malfunction, Capt. Kirk and Archie Bunker switched places.

760 AlphaMu42  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:45:41am

#754 Frank IBC

(OK, that one was really, really bad...)

Yes, it was. In fact, I'd rather not comment on it :o

761 lazytart  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:45:51am

Now our military planners fucked it up--they knew about Al Qaqa and similar depots but then they went in with so few troops that other targets (Oil Ministry) took higher priority.

Your thoughts are not independent at all, are they?

762 'Nam Grunt  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:46:26am

#758,

Is that Orange County Texas or California.

763 traveler  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:48:17am

#758 Just a Houswife

Insecure people need attention, brag alot (look at hollywood) and find fault with any action no matter the outcome. They look at the middle of a story like a broken record, and don't look at the outcome, future or the big picture. We've heard them whine for four years. Their energy alone; that psychic vampire behavior, has stopped this country from any progress at all in just about every aspect of society.

You're absolutely right: And what better way to get attention than to sign up with LGF on Oct. 25th and lob a lot of inarticulate babble into the enemy's blog. It's sad, really.

764 Furious J  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:48:57am

#759 --- I always thought it would be neat to swap out Dave Stewart and Annie Lennox of Eurythmics with Archie and Edith Bunker.

765 traveler  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:50:09am

#761 lazytart

Right! And like Kerry, he hates our military.....

766 lazytart  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:50:53am

Traveler, LOL!!

AlphaMu42, may I inquire as to the significance of your moniker?

767 JustAHouseWife  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:53:49am

#762 I am in California.

768 'Nam Grunt  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 5:57:21am

#767,

Just picking at you, I'm in Orange County, Texas, however that was a good post. I agree.

769 Radian  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 6:00:52am

761

That is the DU mantra..

770 Al di Grandpa  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 6:30:44am

#767 Just a Housewife

NOT! There is no such thing as just a housewife.
God bless you and your family. Thanks for such an
articulate posting here.

I'm also in OC...my grandson is at Pendleton getting ready to deploy. We ask for your prayers for him and all the men and women serving in this great cause.

Kerry is a disgrace.

Semper Fi

A

771 JustAHouseWife  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 6:49:33am

Traveler,
Exactly. It is sad. To bring up accents and IQ as an argument for intelligence? What accent is intelligent?

And oh ok, my husband is a scientist with a high IQ, who do you think can run our household better? He or I? LOL

How many evil men had high IQs? Sheesh. Idiot.

What matters is you heart and soul, and how you use your brain and time on Earth with those things. Any decent person knows that. A troll, saying these things is an indication that the troll is not even a decent person. That is, if a troll can even be a decent person. ;) Can you Troll and Be Decent? LOL

My good friend who lives in PA asked me the other day "Why do you like Bush"? I told her "Because I understand what he is doing". That's all I could say because the details make her nuts. She doesn't understand and watches too much tv. She is the kindest person. She wasn't a "troll", she asked how I felt or thought like a decent person. Anyone would, who was approaching a person, or BLOG, with a different view than their own. Sheesh

772 impact00  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 6:55:40am

#756 Independent writes
This is no way to fight a war. A good plan would have called for airdropping marines on to these depots to secure them FIRST. Or bomb these sites from the air to destroy the ammunition. If you are going to fight a war, fight it dammit.

Huh? Have you ever heard of Monday morning quarter backing?
Airdropping marines? This base camp was defended loosely by Iraqis who were taken down by the 3ID. Would you have liked to see more casualties? First, its the wrong war. Then this is not the way to fight it.
First, wrong place war, then it is unprepared soldiers. Would airdropped marines have been better prepared in your mind?

As McCain says. do you want to believe that Saddam's Iraq was an Oasis of Peace? Grow up already.

Saddam couldn't be left alone because of 9/11, though he wasn't behind 9/11but it is beyond doubt that he was collaborating with the thugs. Vote Bush if you value your liberty. Hanoi Kerry is so inconsistent, he is Scary (Naive and dangerous comes to mind).

773 JustAHouseWife  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 6:58:13am
We ask for your prayers for him and all the men and women serving in this great cause.

Al Di Grandpa, you got 'em, forever and non-stop! :)

774 ruth k  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 7:49:35am

...

775 ruth k  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 7:51:23am

Sorry, wrong thread. I guess I got carried away

776 tankdemon  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 7:57:16am

756 independant of common thought-

Air drop marines? Do you know anything about the military? Should we have waited another three months to give enough marines parachutist training so they can accomplish the job? Idiot, marines are not generally airdropped in, you must be thinking about army ariborne and air assault units.

Airdropping them in before we started the invasion, let's see how long did the march into bagdhad take? Couple of weeks. Which was a hell of a lot faster than even our most optomistic predictions. Yeah, let's drop thes poor bastards deep into the country with nobody having their back, surrounded by enemy and no means of resupply. That's the formula for another mass grave.

As for bombing the depot into oblivion, I agree that it probably should have been done, but the strategic decision not to do so is easily defended. There was a more than reasonable belief that the would be WMD on these sites. Bombing them could result in their destruction, which is all fine and dandy, but then it would also destroy evidence that that they existed. Remember, this was before we had a chance to search the country and it was only the outright loonies at the time who didn't think that Saddam didn't have WMD stockpiles somewhere. The other result of bombing a WMD site would be that instead of destroying them, they are only released into the environment. I don't know about you, Mr. military genius, (/sarc) but I personally don't want to have to invade through countryside that is contaminated by chemical or biological weapons.

Please stop posting here. You do not have the intellectual capacity to make a valid arguement, and you can not be taken seriously by any reasonable person. You claim to have common sense, but have so far shown very little evidence thereof. I laugh at you and pray that you recover from your delusions. Please find a reputable headshrinker to take care of you.

777 andrewh  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 7:59:27am

The president was cautious the president was prudent the president did what a commander in chief should do. No matter how you try to blame it on the president the actual responsibility for it really would be for the troops that were there. Did they search carefully enough? Didn't they search carefully enough?

--Rudy Guiliani, on the Today Show

Now it's the troops fault????

778 gymnast  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 8:52:06am

#777, andrewh. Ah, after two days you stumble upon the implicit central thesis of the Kerry, NY Times CBS conspiracy, and attribute it to Guliani. You are one clever double dipped in shit fuckwit to figure this out all by yourself. Or did yo mama help you?

779 Geepers  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 8:52:33am

tankdemon (#776),

Nice shootin'.

780 andrewh  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 9:01:46am

#777

Find me the place where Kerry has placed the blame on the troops rather than the administration and I'll see it your way.

Recall what Bush said in the the second debate:

I remember sitting in the White House looking at those generals, saying, "Do you have what you need in this war? Do you have what it takes?"

I remember going down to the basement of the White House the day we committed our troops as last resort, looking at Tommy Franks and the generals on the ground, asking them, "Do we have the right plan with the right troop level?"

According to Bush, if troops levels are wrong, it was because the generals made a mistake. We can argue all day long whether we had enough troops, but if we agree that we didn't, if the buck doesn't stop with the president, where does it stop?

781 Furious J  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 9:06:50am

Those capable of truly indepedent thought can analyze the situation thusly, which is more likely?

1. The 3ID and the 101st AB knowingly left a huge ammo dump unguarded so that a huge convoy of trucks could remove 380 tons of explosive material and transport it through military checkpoints and roadblocks to reach insurgents.

2. The 380 tons of explosive were not at the base when the Americans got there. The New York Times rushed to print with a dubious story that accrues to the benefit of the candidate they have endorsed for president.

Occam's razor is no friend to John Kerry or the braindead tools who parrot him.

782 andrewh  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 9:07:16am

I'll add that if Bush loses this election it will probably be because he never once stood up and took responsibility for obvious mistakes in Iraq.

If he had once said something like, look, we've had some setbacks, made some assumptions that were wrong and things are more difficult than we thought, but we're going to fix it and here's how, this election wouldn't even be close, but he didn't and it is.

783 gymnast  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 9:19:24am

#782, andrewh. And when Kerry loses this election will he admit his "youthful indescretions" and apologize for taking the taxpayers money for being a do nothing member of congress fo more than 20 years, and say that he now understands why a majority of the American people consider him to be a treasonous shitbird and air thief? Nooooooooo. But I hope that you go somewhere else to complain about your role model falling on his ass.

784 andrewh  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 9:22:36am

Lord, grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls,
the courage to debate with honest opponents,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

785 Frank IBC  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 9:36:43am

Furious J -

Sorry, I got sandbagged at work today.

Lunch one of these days...I promise...

786 impact00  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 9:37:43am

#782 andrewh

In the first debate the president acknowledged that they expected Saddam's troops to standup and fight, but they ran away and now fighting the guerilla war. He also said in the second debate that he wished some of the tactics were different. But see, the media wants him to say that the Iraq war itself was wrong. But, it isn't/ wasn't. IIRC, the administration wanted regime change in Iraq as intelligence made WMD a huge threat. As President says, a free and democratic Iraq is a beacon of light for the entire middle east.

The president has taken full responsibility for putting the armed forces in harm's way. Michael Moore wanted the special forces to be air dropped over Afghanistan to catch Bin Laden. These are the guys who want the president to say he was wrong, but he is steadfast in saying that Iraq was the right thing to do. The President is a man of integrity and courage, Moore et al. can't even touch him with a 10 foot pole. Vote BUSH.

787 StMaybe  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 9:42:37am

Amen, # 786!

788 Frank IBC  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 9:44:14am

#784 -

Did you just put yourself on ignore or something?

789 Frank IBC  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 9:45:54am

I'd love to see Michael Moore dropped over an Iraqi ammo dump, without a parachute.

790 andrewh  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 9:47:17am

#786 Impact00

It's one thing to take full responsibility for putting the armed forces in harm's way. He'd be a fool not to take repsonsibility for that because it's nothing to take responsibility for if you agree the war in Iraq is warranted.

What I am talking about is troop levels. Paul Bremer and others have come forward and said that the one thing that would have made a difference was more boots on the ground. If al QaQaa was the only example it wouldn't be as big a deal, but the looting that went on just after the fall of Bagdad, the inability to secure the borders or secure nulear facilities has obviously been problematic.

Now, I'm not saying that the president and the administration could have been prepared for all contingencies. This is war. But they should have been prepared for most of them. And when things go wrong, it's important to recognize the problems, fix them and move on. Whether the administration is doing is one thing, but the appearance, day in and day out is that they are not.

791 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 9:56:05am
792 Furious J  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 10:01:20am

Lord, grant me the serenity not to waste too much time on tools who simply parrot DNC talking points, the courage to debate with people capable of expressing informed, reasoned and logical opinions if any ever show up ... the wisdom to know the difference between the two, I pretty much got covered...

Frank, it's cool, I had to go to a goodbye lunch for my former boss anyway... he's doing a George Jefferson... movin' on up...

793 andrewh  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 10:09:03am

Rayra-

You're a master debater. I give up. You're right. I'll go back to beating my wfie stop basing my opinions on facts.

794 Frank IBC  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 10:19:19am

Furious J -

It's OK, I opened a browser window with your picture in it, and I'm eating a gyro from the place next door, and I'm making mindless smalltalk while I eat. :)

795 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 10:21:13am
796 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 10:26:30am
797 Doss  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 10:56:47am

#518 Rayra
Reservation...Skinner...Huh? Me no get.

798 impact00  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 11:05:02am

#790 andrewh

Whether the administration is doing is one thing, but the appearance, day in and day out is that they are not.

That's because that's what Hanoi Kerry wants you to see and hear. Gen. Franks comes out and says they had enough troops and you don't want to believe him?

Look, IIRC, Pres. Bush said one of the things he learned during the Vietnam era was not to meddle with military decisions on the ground, but give them what they want. If the generals on the ground say they've got enough troops, what do you tell them?

Do we have to believe :ONLY: what Hanoi John Kerry or MSM say? I thought you are better than that.

799 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 11:30:29am
800 angelnoel  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:53:53pm

#626 Glory

Thanks for sharing this. It's very touching and far more impressive than the others who are chanting elsewhere.

801 Attilla the Dutchman  Thu, Oct 28, 2004 3:56:43pm

I'm coming to this thread kind of late but I was thinking today about the fact that the 4ID was staged in Turkey and poised to strike down the border of Syria and Iraq. Unfortunately, the Turks changed their minds at the last minute and all the WMD's disappeared into thin air???. Woould the 4ID have caught some Russian special ops transporting explosives or WMD's into Syria???


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